A (2:55)

Thank you. I am so psyched to talk about this subject of blaming and the stories that we tell ourselves as if they are true, but are often not.

B (3:06)

Well, you've had a fascinating journey from musician to entrepreneur to philosopher of business and life. What led you to start cd, baby? And how did that experience shape the way you view business today?

A (3:17)

I was just trying to sell my own music on my band's website, and I built a thing with lucky timing. It was 1997. If you were a musician on the Internet in 1997, there was no business anywhere that would sell your music except some guy named Derek in New York that could do it for you. So that was my accidental start of a business that I didn't even mean to make it a business. I was just a musician doing my own thing. But 10 years later, after a quarter million musicians and, I don't know, 80 million in sales, I walked away because I felt done. Since then, I've been lifting my head up and looking at the world and questioning a lot of norms and questioning a lot of assumptions that people have, often inspired by a book called you'd Can Negotiate Anything by Herb Cohen, which I think is right up your alley. Or anybody interested in blind blaming would also like this book called you Can Negotiate Anything by Herb Cohen. Because it's not just about negotiating money. Life is negotiable. Anytime somebody tells you it has to be done this way or you can't do that. It's not true. It's not the Ten Commandments. It's just something somebody said. It's a price that was picked arbitrarily in a backroom meeting. It doesn't mean it's fixed. So many things in life are negotiable, including your own stories and motivations that you tell yourself. So I love the same subject that you do.

B (4:52)

That's great. I want to talk about when you said you knew you were done. I've done a lot of work in the medical field and other industries, and blind blaming has given me access to a lot of different professions and people. One of my key phrases was, look, when it's not fun anymore, I'm done. When I'm having fun, I'm done. Is that how you felt when you were done? What was it that made you just say, I'm done?

A (5:14)

Exactly that. It felt like I had been working on one of those Giant murals. You know, those big, giant Mexican murals. The size of a building takes years to finish. It felt like I had put the last brushstroke on it. I had no more ideas. I had done everything I set out to do. I did it well. It was a success and I just felt done. So, yeah, you put it more succinctly and with a nice rhyme. It was no longer fun. So I'm done.

B (5:45)

I get it. And your book, Anything youg Want, if I read it correctly, it's about rejecting business norms and creating something that truly fits your values. What's the biggest business rule you think people should stop following?

A (5:57)

Assuming that money is the only measure? I love that there are so many aspects to life. There's experimentation, there's generosity, there's self improvement, or let's say self actualization. Being all you can be. There's just improving the lives of people or just artistically creating something you want to exist. Sculptors and painters and musicians know this feeling of just having an idea of something you want to exist and just making it for its own sake, even if other people don't love it as much as you do. But that's okay because you made the art that you wanted to make. It's so deeply satisfying to make that happen. And you can do that with business, too. I think business is just as creative as art. You can make a business happen that you envision it existing, and even if it barely breaks even, it can be so fulfilling to just make it happen.

B (7:00)

I agree. I completely agree. For me, it's impact this time around. And I'm finding that focusing on impact, truly helping people find their hidden truth, as we call it. With blind blaming, which we'll get into here in just a sec, I found that it's helped us grow even quicker than we did the first time. I did this for my first business, it took me 20 years to grow. It's interesting when you change your focus to impact instead of making money, how much better you do. At least that's been my experience. I don't know if you want to comment on that.

A (7:27)

Think of the metaphor of the odometer on your car and think of what you would do if making the odometer go up was your main focus, versus if your focus was seeing the world or exploring your country in your car, then the odometer would go up as a side effect. It doesn't have to be the main point. And in fact, if the odometer was the main point, you might find yourself doing really stupid things like propping it up and just having a machine spin the wheels at night just to make the odometer go up. I think that's what sometimes people end up doing when they get into something like cryptocurrency. Not to pick on that in particular, but there are things that don't make the world a better place are not particularly interesting, but people do them anyway just because it might make them money and that's their only purpose. I think it's a sad existence.

B (8:20)

Agreed. And I think when you're focused on the odometer, as you just said, you're missing the world as it goes by.

A (8:26)

Nicely put.

B (8:27)

That's what I envisioned when you said that. And there's some I can't remember. I got to give the guy credit. I got to look it up. But I heard a quote one time that said, the only people that are going to remember that you worked late are your kids.

A (8:38)

Nice.

B (8:39)

I thought it was good too. Well, as we talked about before we started recording, Beyond Blind Blaming is about how we often misdiagnose problems and place blame in the wrong places and sometimes the wrong people. And sometimes we blame ourselves even when it's not actually us. This is a problem I have with the self help industry. And one of the reasons I wrote the book was that too many times I think people point the finger at themselves and they blame themselves. Have you ever found yourself blind blaming in your own journey? And if so, what was the hidden truth that changed your perspective?

A (9:09)

Actually, I'm going to answer the reverse of that. I had a tendency to blame everyone else. So the other reason I sold my company and the reason it became not fun was mostly because of the internal drama that that happened. I tried to be a remote boss. And what happened in my absence is my 85 employees created this giant drama where they were convinced that I was the cause of all of their life's problems. Even though I was away, I was merely the owner. I wasn't the manager, I wasn't the actual presiding president. I was just the owner. They said, he's our problem. He's the reason I'm not happy every day. Then they created a bunch of drama and basically did a mutiny where even though I was the sole owner of the company, they tried to get me kicked out of the company so they could run it the way they wanted.

B (10:09)

Interesting.

A (10:10)

In the end, I ended up just actually, I'll tell you the colorful version when I really decided that this sucks. I don't want to do this anymore because I'm a sysadmin as well. I just logged into the web server and I typed, halt. I just shut off the website.

B (10:24)

Oh, my gosh.

A (10:25)

I said, everybody, I'm done. And I was preparing to replace the homepage of the website with a page that said, thank you for your business. We've closed operations. We will be sending everybody's CDs back. Take care. Goodbye. But it was, like, midnight as I was trying to write this, and I was getting tired. So I said, okay, I'll turn the web server back on, but tomorrow I'm shutting this business. But the next day, I talked to a friend who said, you know, you can sell the company, right? And I went, oh, forgot about that. She said, yeah, I think your company's probably worth millions of dollars. I went, yeah, God, thanks for that reminder. I had actually forgotten. So I sold the company instead. But the real point, back to the story is I spent the next couple years so mad at my employees. How dare they try to kick me out of my own company. How dare they turn against me when I had been so generous? How dare they turn into enemies when I had brought them in as friends. These were friends that used to sleep on my couch or we would hang out together. And they turned against me. I was so mad at them. For, like, two years, it was they this and they that. And after two years, I asked myself an interesting question, which was, what if all of that was my fault? And to me, that was really empowering. Now, instead of being a victim, I was like the superhero that had so much power that I created the whole problem that now I saw it as something I can do something about instead of just being mad about. Because if it was my fault, then that's something I can correct in the future and work on. And to me, that shift of perspective brought me peace for the first time in years. It brought me so much tranquility to think of it as my fault. So that worked for me. But then I blogged about that, and I said, hey, here's an interesting way to think of it. You know, maybe something that you thought was somebody else's fault is your fault. But. Oh, Kevin, people didn't like to hear that. They said, derek, that's a terrible thing. I grew up in an environment where everybody was telling me it was my fault. That's the worst thing that you could say to me. I said, that's okay. It was just a proposal to consider that other point of view. I'm not saying it is the situation. And in fact, it might not have been my fault. None of this is necessarily, objectively, absolutely, necessarily true. It's just a perspective. And that's what I'm so excited to talk with you about, is this idea of blame is just a story. And you just have to ask yourself what story works for you? To me, the story that this was my fault. That story worked for me. It might not work for you, but for me, it gave me the desired result. It helped me let go of the past for somebody else in a different situation, that wouldn't work.

B (13:36)

To me, what I hear you saying is you control the controllable. I believe what causes anxiety and depression is we get too focused on the things we can't control and focus on the things we can. And that's exactly what you did, because tell me if you think I'm wrong, but I don't think we can control what other people do. We can try, but you're going to be anxious, you're going to be depressed, and you're going to be pissed off. But I think if you focus on how you react to certain situations, which is what I hear you say you did, because that's what I did years ago to get rid of just about 95% of all the stress in my life. When I started saying, okay, here's the event, here's how I react to the event, and that's what really causes the outcome, not the event itself. It's my reaction, and I just started changing the way I think. And just for me, it made a huge difference because all the stress went away in my life and I started being happier. Sounds like the same thing happened to you.

A (14:24)

Audience, are you noticing a theme here? I'll ramble around the point for a while, and then Kevin echoes it back in a much more eloquent way.

B (14:33)

Well, I want to get into some of the core beliefs. I think I read about you. One of your core beliefs was doing things your way instead of following conventional wisdom, which I loved. Give me an example of when ignoring popular advice led you to a major breakthrough or a sample of somebody that you've worked with. Either one.

A (14:50)

It's important to ask yourself why you're really doing what you're doing, because it may not be the normal answer. I'm answering your question in a roundabout way. Imagine this idea of there's two doctors at a party and two lawyers at a party, and because of this, you say, oh, hey, you guys are two doctors. You should get to know each other. You probably have a lot in common, but you find out that the first doctor became a Doctor because his mother died of Parkinson's and he's committed to make sure that nobody ever dies of Parkinson's again. And the second doctor is just in it for the money. But the two lawyers over here, the first lawyer got into it because his father was wrongly jailed and he wants to make sure that nobody's ever wrongly jailed again. And the second lawyer is just in it for the money. We can't assume that we have the same motivation as other people in our industry or other people doing the same thing. We might have very different reasons for doing what we do. But the problem in a media saturated world is that our peers are held up as role models saying we should do it like them. Here's the recipe for success. Do what this guy did and we can be lured into thinking that that's the answer, that we should mute our natural impulses and do what others have done to get the pot of gold. But actually you might have different motivations inside. So first you need to be self aware to ask yourself why you're really doing what you're doing. And then I can answer your question. Finally, the reason I started my company was not to make money. I was just trying to help my fellow musicians. Because I had already been successful myself as a musician. I had been one of the fortunate ones. I had a good career as a musician. I bought a house with the money I made touring. I was living the dream as a self employed musician. Last time I had a job was 1992. I quit my last job in 1992. Haven't had a job since. I was living the dream. So when I started my music distribution company, I was doing it as like a public service for my fellow musicians. That was my goal, was helping musicians. Even if I lost money doing it, I would consider myself a success. So that shaped every other decision I made in the business was made around what would make the musicians happy. Don't worry if it loses us money. What would make the musicians happy? So I made sure that every employee at the company knew this customer service. Whatever anybody you encounter, just make sure that we're all following this mission of what would make the musicians happy. And part of the reason the company got so successful is because we did a bunch of weird, unusual things to make our musician clients extremely happy. Which meant they went and told all their friends, oh my God, there's this company called CD baby. You wouldn't believe what they did for me. And they went, told everyone they knew this is where you should buy my music. Don't go to Amazon, don't go to those other places, get it here, because these guys are great. So there's your roundabout answer to your question is that soul searching led me to do everything in the company differently, which is what led to its success. Even though I wasn't pursuing money, it's what brought the money.

B (18:14)

What I love about your story is you had. One thing that you mentioned is you're trying to help somebody. And I think this is why physicians get burned out. They forget because they get so tied up focusing on the wrong things instead of how they're helping people about the managed care and things like that. But I always go back to that book, Grit. Have you read Grit before?

A (18:32)

Yes. Angela Duckworth.

B (18:34)

Yeah. And by the way, she wrote a forward for another book called how would you change, which is even better. The thing I remember about Grit the most was the thing that people that made it through Hell Week and the people who make it through Navy Seals training is they had a really deep seated mission to help others. And I always remember that. And it sounds like you figured that out pretty early on.

A (18:54)

Or lucked into it.

B (18:55)

Yeah, or lucky. Hey, look, I'll take luck over skill any day. Any day. Entrepreneurs and creatives often feel stuck because they think they need more resources, more money, more connections, or a perfect plan. But you talk a lot about using constraints as an advantage. Can you share a time when constraints actually worked in your favor?

A (19:15)

Not taking dot com boom. Investor money.

B (19:19)

Ah, okay, now we're talking. I love this. Go.

A (19:23)

Remember, I started CD Baby in 1997. I was one of those early guys on the Internet. 1994, in a dial up modem. I've had a website since 1994, taught myself HTML, all that stuff. So I was in that early, early game. So 1997 is when I launched CD Baby as a business. Back when people weren't even used to using credit cards on the Internet. I had to keep convincing people it's okay to use your credit card on the Internet. So imagine this. It was New York City. I was living in New York City when this happened. And then like 1998, the dot com boom came in. Everybody I knew was having millions of dollars thrown at them by investors. And every single one of them, I saw how it corrupted their perspective that they were spending their time trying to please the investors and trying to say the nonsense that made investors happy. Instead of helping real people, they would say things like, well, we're enabling something, something, you know, liquidity, this, that they couldn't tell you what it was. They're actually doing. But it was very skilled at getting more investor money. So I was attending annual trade shows in the music industry. And at the beginning, it was just me with a little card table of flyers and some other scrappy little startups helping musicians. The next year it was me at a card table with some flyers and a bunch of expensive booths around me. The next year it was mega expensive booths with huge superstars paid to be glamorous spokespeople for these companies. And I'm still sitting here at the card table with my flyers. The next year, it was me at the card table with my flyers and a few other booths, people with card tables with flyers. After the dot com bust, I remember it just felt like their motivations were all wrong. Their incentives were wrong. That's the key. Their incentives were wrong because once you get investors, your incentives are to please the investors, not to please your clients. Pleasing the clients and customers is secondary as, like a little box you need to also tick to make the investors happy. But I refused all the investor money because I just saw how it corrupted everyone around me. So never took any investment. I started the business with 500 bucks. And that limitation of not having investor money meant I didn't waste it on parties, I didn't waste it on advertising. I didn't waste it on expensive Herman Miller chairs and fancy retina recognition security systems.

B (22:20)

You didn't have your own sushi chef?

A (22:22)

Didn't have my own sushi chef. Didn't have a Manhattan office. I was up in a barn in Woodstock and I survived while the others failed.

B (22:31)

Well, I like your story about having to convince people to actually give you credit cards over online. Because when we started my company in 2005, we were virtual. You're giving me flashbacks. But people would say, ooh, you don't have an office? I don't know. I don't. I mean, so you could just be like, up and gone, take my money and leave. I'm like, well, that's one way to think of it. Or we could take your money and do something for you. But then after Covid, then I found these same companies and corporations were calling us, saying, hey, you've been doing this virtually for a while, right? Can you help us do it? We have no idea what we're talking about. And I always went back to, okay, aren't you the guy that called me and told me you couldn't do this because we're a virtual company anyway? Flashbacks.

A (23:12)

Wow.

B (23:13)

Another well known principle that I read about you is it's Either a hell yeah or a hell no. Did I get it wrong?

A (23:19)

That's right.

B (23:20)

And how does that apply when people feel stuck, Especially when they don't have a clear hell yeah option. Any thoughts? And you can go anywhere you want with this. I just loved, I was like, oh, hell yeah, we're going to talk about this.

A (23:31)

So let's take it this direction then. You don't have to do something. You can do nothing. In fact, it can be very smart to do nothing, to say no, even though it's your only option. And leave this empty space and time in your life so that when that occasional thing comes along that makes you go, oh my God, yes, that would be great. Well now you have the time and the energy to put into that one opportunity that came up that's an absolute winner because you weren't saying yes to all the other half assed things along the way. So I think that's the beginning of the hell yeah or no idea. It's another way of saying raise the bar all the way up so that almost everything's a no unless something's really amazing. But the less spoken reason behind that is so that you have the time and energy to throw into that one that comes along. If you don't mind the baseball metaphor, it's don't swing unless you think it's going to be a home run.

B (24:38)

There you go. I love it. I like how you're tying it back to the book. Of course, I have no problem with shameless promotion. Well, you seem to have lived in multiple countries, if I read about you correctly and embrace simplicity and minimalism, which I love. How do you feel stripping away excess, whether in business or life, helps create more clarity and success.

A (24:59)

It's for yourself. It's getting to the core of what this is about. Kind of like we're talking about as a running theme here. Why are you doing what you're doing? Why are you really doing this business? Is it just for the money? It's really useful to daydream and ask yourself, what would I do if I had a million dollars now? What would I do if I had 10 million now? What would I do if I had 100 million? And at some point you'll find that more money would not make any change in your life. And so you've got to find where that point is, where it would actually be unwise for you to keep pursuing money past that point if it's not going to make a change in your life. So you can apply that to the items in your life, you can take them seriously. You can think of buying an item as seriously as you would think of adopting a dog. Because this item that you're bringing into your life now, it's gonna clutter up your home somewhat. It's gonna be a thing that is diluting your energy. And I'm not saying that in a New agey way. I mean, like, diluting your time. Even if you spend a little bit of time on this new kitchen appliance, is that time that you would actually rather spend doing something else. And if you also get a new motorcycle, and if you also get a ping pong table, and if you also get these things, each one of them is going to dilute your time and your focus so much that you might need to ask yourself what you're really after in life. Are you after a life of leisure and just hanging out, puttering around, doing a little bit of this pleasure and a little bit of that pleasure, or do you want to make a significant impact in some way? If you want to make a significant impact, then every new thing you bring into your life is a distraction from that impact. So stripping everything down to its essence is a constant reminder of why you're really doing what you're doing and what you're really after.

B (27:15)

Well, as Simon says, it starts with why. And I think a lot of people don't take the time to think about that. Why am I doing this? Why am I working myself into the grave? I had a podcast guest, she wrote a book called the New Happy, and she's really big about just getting clear on what makes you happy. She's got a process she takes people through, but it was a really enjoyable talk because she's like, so many people get stuck on what other things that make other people happy and not necessarily what makes you happy. One of the things I've taught for a while, I can't remember who taught it. This is a 10, 10 10. Have you ever heard of that? How am I going to feel about this in 10 minutes, 10 months, in 10 years? And half the time after we buy a new car in 10 months, we're bored with it. Like, God, what else is out there now?

A (27:56)

Yep. I'm so glad. I read the psychology book called Stumbling on Happiness.

B (28:04)

Oh, let's get that one.

A (28:05)

Daniel Gilbert, I think he brilliantly pointed out where you get the joy from. He uses sunglasses. An example in the book, he said, you've got an old pair of sunglasses, you've had a while, you see a new pair of sunglasses in the store. You think, ooh, I like these new sunglasses. He said the moment, it does actually make you happy is the comparison moment where you're still comparing the new ones to the old ones. And then, yes, for a brief while, it does make you happy to have the new sunglasses. You think, yeah, these are my new sunglasses. I'm happy. The problem is, after a couple days, they're not your new sunglasses, they're just your sunglasses. The happiness came from the moment of comparison. I read that at a very influential moment in my life and I've never forgotten it. Every time, every single time I ever think about acquiring a new item, I ask myself, am I just seeking that short happiness from the comparison moment? I think so, therefore, never mind. That's a very short lived happiness.

B (29:14)

Well, do you think some people are chasing happiness and do things like that to replace something that's missing?

A (29:19)

Of course. Again, that's where it helps to do some daydream and soul searching and ask yourself what you really want. Even if it's writing in a journal or just talking with friends about alternative scenarios for your life. What if you were to quit your job and sail around the world for a year? Would that be what you really want? Think of the implications. Don't just leave it at that. Don't just make it a 30 second daydream. Think it through for a few hours. Go find out what it is to live on a sailboat for a year. Go through that and see if that's something you really want before you suddenly quit your job. I do a lot of daydreaming like this and it's helped my life a lot. Another one that I think people don't ask enough these days is, would I still want to do this if I didn't tell anyone? If I posted nothing?

B (30:13)

Oh, that's a great one.

A (30:14)

No photos, no tweets, no posts, no sharing. Am I truly doing this just for me, or am I doing it for the image it will project?

B (30:24)

Sorry, I'm writing that one down because I loved it so much. I will maybe sometimes give you credit. I always say the secret to originality is not revealing your sources. I'm totally kidding. I always try to give credit when I can remember.

A (30:37)

Actually, I think it's. If you don't mind a spin on that tangent.

B (30:42)

No, go for it.

A (30:42)

I think sometimes it can be inconsiderate to quote and credit too much. I'll pick on him because he's successful and I adore him. Ryan Holiday's books on stoicism are filled with so many Names. Every page says this Greek person knows something. Something born in this year in something ad of the Polonius something said this and this philosopher in this year that was born in this ad in Athens and something and worked with. He said this and this other person's.

B (31:19)

Yeah, no, I get it.

A (31:20)

After a while I think, you know, you're putting a lot of crap into my head that is not helpful. Can you just give me the sentence without all the damn quoting? And I caught myself doing this where because I knew the source of my ideas, I would interrupt the telling to credit the source. I'd say Brian Eno wrote us his self autobiography with which is called this, which was released in 92 and it's a brilliant book. And in it he said such. And I think after saying that three or four times to three or four people, I really wasted a lot of human time where I could have just said the thing and stopped all the quoting.

B (32:01)

Well, it's funny you say that because in my book the editor, that was one of her feedback. We did a developmental editor, whatever it's called. And she's like, listen, you gave the people credit, but a lot of this is your own thoughts. You got too many references. Let's just shorten it. This is your own thoughts. You've already mentioned where it came from. They can go look it up. And I thought it was really good advice. So thanks for confirming her because she drove me nuts for three months. But I love her and she made me up. She came up with something great. Do you know Ryan Holiday? Because I love his books. I loved his Daily Stoic. I read it two years in a row and I've given it to probably 500 people.

A (32:36)

Oh, wow, cool. Yeah, we haven't met face to face, but we've emailed for years.

B (32:41)

Yeah, he's a good guy.

A (32:42)

Oh wait, yeah, you live. You must have met him. You're there in Austin, right?

B (32:45)

I've not met him. I'd love to. I gotta email him because I've. Like I said, I've given that book, that one book to a lot of people. In fact, Jennifer's sister and her boyfriend, I gave it to them for Christmas and they literally said that book changed our life, so. Cause I just found they were just what we talked about in the beginning. They were just so focused on all the stuff that was happening to them. They weren't controlling how they were reacting. And I think the book got em to calm down and focus on the right things. So I love the guy. I haven't met him But I also love the way he markets his business and how he signs his book. And you can buy them in bulk book. So when I send people a book that he signed, people think I know him, but I've never met him.

A (33:23)

Nice.

B (33:24)

Well, you mentioned journaling, and one of my next questions was, how can somebody start defining success for themselves? And you mentioned, like, getting into a quiet place, journaling. Is there any other things you think they can do? Specifically, takeaways, rather than following society's version of what success should be for themselves?

A (33:41)

Assuming we've all learned about brainstorming, the first rule of brainstorming is to not stop after one or two ideas. You have to force yourself to keep coming up with more. Even if it seems like idea number three is the winner, we'll keep going. Try idea number four, 9, 13, 19. And only stop when you've really gone past the obvious ones and explored some extreme and silly ones. Because in there, you might find a shockingly beautiful solution to the problem that you wouldn't have thought of with your usual mode of thinking.

B (34:26)

The reason I asked this really hit home is because I prepared this a while back. But recently we were out with a very important client of mine and to dinner, and she's had some pretty big life changes, has a very successful business, and when I asked her that very question, what really makes you happy? She's like, I have no idea. I don't even know where to start. Everything. It's just because she's so focused on the trauma and everything that happened with her, and it's not my area of expertise. I was just trying to get her to make a list, and she's like, I don't even know where to start. And it was a difficult meeting because I didn't know where to tell her to start. I think that question that you asked, what would you do if you didn't tell anyone? How did you say it again? I don't think I got it all down.

A (35:06)

Yeah, if you couldn't tell anyone.

B (35:09)

Yeah. You couldn't tell anybody. Couldn't tell anybody. Yeah. You wouldn't share it. That was it. And I didn't ask her that. I'm seeing her again the next couple days because we have our mastermind meetings the next couple days up in Fort Worth, and she's coming, and I think I may pull her aside and ask her that question and just have her start making a list. So thank you for that.

A (35:26)

Sure. Hey, killer point that helped me make maybe the single biggest change in my life was a friend who was patiently listening as I was complaining about how hard it was to run my company. I have to do this, I have to do that. I have to do this. And the employees and the customers, the clients and this and the taxes and the equipment and that. And I complained about so many things. And he said, derek, you don't have to do anything. I said, oh, yes, I do. I have to pay my employees. I have to ship out the orders. I have to take care of. The emails come in every day. They have to get answered. He said, derek, stop. You don't have to do anything. He said, I'm not being snarky or lighthearted. This is really serious, and you need to understand this. You don't have to do any of that. And I said, yes, I do. I have to pay my taxes. I. I have to pay my employees. I have to fulfill the orders that customers have paid for. And he said, no, you don't. He said, you're choosing to, but you don't have to. He said, if you don't pay your taxes, well, then give it three or four or five years. The IRS will audit you and maybe penalize you for the interest that you should have paid. If you don't pay your employees, they'll eventually stop coming into work and they'll find another job. Maybe one of them might try to sue you, maybe not. If you don't fulfill your customer's orders, they'll contact the credit card and get their money back. You don't have to do any of that. You're choosing to do it, but you need to know that it's optional. You could, right now, get on a plane to Tahiti, change your name, and never look back. That is an option, a valid option that you could take right now. You could walk away from all of it, literally, irresponsibly, and everything would work itself out fine. You'd pay some penalties or whatever, maybe don't worry about it. And that was profound. It helped me think more clearly and zoom out from my whole situation. That felt binding. It felt absolute. And he helped me zoom out from above it and see all of it as optional, all of it as one possible option. There were so many different options I could choose, and that's what helped me sell my company. It was that conversation with him where he asked me some other questions and made me realize, I'm done after 10 years of this thing. That was my sole identity. It's what everybody knew me as. Everybody knew me as the seedy baby guy that was completely me by the end of that phone call, I realized I was done.

B (37:58)

Well, it sounds like it's changed your life for the better. Seem happy.

A (38:02)

Hugely better. So much better even. There's so many things that even seemed tragic at the time. I mean, the worst breakup of my life, the worst financial mistake of my life, almost all of these. I look back and go, wow, I'm so glad that happened.

B (38:18)

Awesome. Well, one of my favorite questions to ask as we wrap it up is you clearly have a lot of knowledge and to me it seems like you've invested in yourself. What's your favorite way to invest in yourself? How do you practice continuous learning? Do you like to read? Do you attend Masterminds? Do you listen to podcasts? How do you invest in yourself?

A (38:36)

I'm going to give the non obvious answer. I do read a lot of books. Surprise, surprise. The non obvious answer is to think really long term, decades from now. Thinking about Dr. Peter Attia's bestselling book from the past year called Outlive has a killer point where he's a doctor that has studied the intersection of aging and fitness. And Outlive is his book about that subject that gets prescriptive at the end where he says, if you want to be able to walk up a flight of stairs when you're 80, you need to be able to run up that flight of stairs. Now if you want to be able to lift 20 pounds when you're 80, you need to be able to lift 100 pounds. Now your capabilities will diminish. You need to know that this will happen. And so you need to compensate now for the inevitable decline. So that idea had a profound impact on me. But I like to use it metaphorically to think of our minds and lives as getting inevitably narrower. That we start out as kids and teenagers full of a million options, a million things we might do, and as life goes on, we get narrower and narrower and narrower and it's like, well, this is who I am. This is how I like my eggs. This is where I live. It's my favorite team. It's my dog. Here's what I this is it. We get narrow. And so to invest in your future self to help counteract your tendency to get narrower, I think it would be very wise to intentionally broaden your life now before it's too late. To intentionally push yourself into not just the unknown, but towards the things that currently repulse you. Go into the things that you find yourself revolted by. Learn more about them to try to reverse your prejudices and expand your self identity now before it's too late. That's my investing in my future self.

B (40:53)

I love it and I love the book Outlive. My trainer loved it as well. So, in fact, they loved it so much, they're like, you have to eat your protein first. I don't know if you remember that part in the book that really stood out for them. And we tested it with a CGM continuous glucose monitor and it damn sure worked with me. So it was pretty wild. Anyway, Derek, amazing time together. I wish we had more time, but we got to wrap it up. If somebody wants to get a hold of you or they want to buy some of your books, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

A (41:20)

I'm not on social media. I have a website that is my everything. So go to Sive rs. I'm not here to sell books. I'm here to meet people. So anybody listening to this should email me. I answer every email and I love it. I actually go on a podcast like this in order to meet the kind of people that would listen to Kevin. And you're my kind of people. That's why I'm here.

B (41:47)

I love it. And we'll make sure we put all that in the description so people can a hold of you if they didn't get that down quick enough. But Derek, thank you for being here, man. Incredible information, lots of great advice. Hope you and I get to stay in touch as well.

A (41:58)

Thanks for having me.