B (3:21)

That's cool. So I mean I hear you on the teaching thing because when I was looking at a career to go into I was like, well I want to teach but I don't want to make you know, 20 grand a year or 30 grand a year. There's got to be something else I can do. And that's when we found my career. But it sounds like you've worked with businesses of all sizes, right?

A (3:38)

Yeah, so I worked, you know, at a small, my first job was at a small company. We had about like 10 employees and we were a very niche software company. And then from there I went and worked at AWeber, which is an international email marketing platform. And our audience were SMBs, small and medium sized businesses and we were a larger company. And then in 2020 I decided to start my own marketing consultancy. And you know, from there I worked with all sizes of companies from like startups with no customers to enterprises to multi billion dollar companies. And I still like to work with SMBs as well because just there's so much heart in SMBs.

B (4:29)

Yeah, we try harder.

A (4:30)

Yeah.

B (4:32)

What are some of the biggest.

A (4:33)

And really care too? Yeah, sorry.

B (4:34)

And we do care. Yeah, no, I'm with you 100%. It seems like some of the bigger companies sometimes it just comes across not even I think deep down inside they want to do a good job but I don't think they realize sometimes that it comes across to their customers that they don't care. Do you see that sometimes?

A (4:48)

Yeah. And I think it's just like the nature of a beast when you start getting really big like that that you kind of have some separation from your customers. Especially when you have like a board and you have investors who you're accountable to and you know, when you don't have that, your customer is your number one who you're accountable to. Right. And when you're close to the customer, you intimately know what they're showing off what they're dealing with and you want to solve their problems. But when the investors, the board becomes your primary concern and a lot of people in the company are never having a conversation with a customer, I think that's when you get more of that, that cold enterprise sort of feel.

B (5:31)

Got it. What are some of the biggest mistakes you see companies making when it comes to email marketing?

A (5:36)

Yeah, when it comes to email marketing. Well, mistake number one, not doing it.

B (5:41)

I was gonna say that too. That's great.

A (5:42)

Yeah. A lot of companies just are not doing anything of email marketing. And it's understandable because I think when people look at email they think, oh, one thing they might think is it's outdated, it doesn't work, it's like old fashioned. And then another thing is there is some complexity to it. You know, deliverability is complex. Growing an email list can seem like a challenge. And there's a lot to learn with getting started with email. And so I think those are two barriers. You know, most of us are used to experiencing social media, for instance, so social media marketing might feel like the sexier, easier to approach sort of option. But email is so effective. So I think that's a big issue, people not doing it. And then I guess another thing is just leaving so much on the table as far as what they could be doing.

B (6:42)

Tell us more about that. You mean like with campaigns or automation or all of the above?

A (6:47)

Yeah, I think I would say all of the above. But automation is definitely a big one and it depends on the company. Right. I see different things depending on the, on the company. I work with a lot of B2B SaaS, companies, software as a service companies, and for them it might be something like an onboarding email automation series that teaches people how to use the product. It might be a regular newsletter where they're engaging with the audience. But also that really helps with email deliverability. And then when you, when it comes time to sell something, you know, having stayed in touch regularly is very important. And then, you know, as far as list growth, I think a lot of people are kind of sitting back and hoping it happens and not being as aggressive as they could be in growing their list. And then once they're on, people are on the list effectively doing good email outreach to them.

B (7:43)

Agreed. I know when I discovered email marketing years ago with my first company, we got the metric we had was every email address we added to our list was worth $674. So it really motivated me to go get as many people on that list as I could, but before I was doing it. Going back to the first problem that you mentioned, not doing it at all, which I wasn't one of my mentors at the time, he's like, Kevin, it's so easy, just hit send. And I was like, okay, I'll get into it. But I'm sure there's a lot of stuff that we're going to go over today that people aren't doing. But most businesses blame a lot of other things. That's kind of at the core of this podcast. My book is blind blaming, where they think they know what the problem is but ends up being something different. And I know you see this a lot out there, whether they complain about or blame low open rates or engagement on changing algorithms or it's my customers. But from your experience, what's the real hidden obstacle behind ineffective email marketing? Or can you think of just one to three?

A (8:40)

I think real hidden obstacles are one you know, I touched on this is email deliverability. And people don't under and I say that's hidden because it really is hidden. Internet service providers like Yahoo and Gmail don't really want you to know their, their algorithms for why an email gets delivered versus why it doesn't because they don't want you to be able to outsmart it. And same thing with ESPs like AWeber, like Mailchimp, like Kit. They don't want to necessarily reveal everything they're doing on the email deliverability side because what they're what they're what both ISPs, Internet Service Providers and ESPs email marketing providers are doing is they are trying to make sure that wanted emails are going into the inbox, wanted and expected emails. And what spammers are doing is they're trying to get those emails in the inbox and the emails are unwanted and unexpected. And so you know, you don't want to tell the spammers what's happening, but you want to tell the good guys what's happening. Right? And how to have good email deliverability. So email deliverability is an often misunderstood thing that is a true pain point of email marketing. And then yeah, consistent engagement, getting consistent engagement and strategizing a good content plan for your emails is really important. And consistent engagement, there are a lot of things that go into increasing your open rates and your click through rates. And again, open rates are another misunderstood piece of data. So I'd say quality engagement, email deliverability and then roi, getting sales from email is, is a, is a pain point that people struggle with while Email is one of the most effective ways to get roi.

B (10:30)

I agree. I mean, even just recently, my coach pushed me to do a an upsell on our E course where people actually pay us to have an email campaign that holds them accountable for getting through it. And I'm shocked that, number one, how many people bought it. Number two, how many people thank me for constantly staying on them. Which we're all scared. At least I was. I was scared that I'm going to piss people off. And that was one of my limiting beliefs that my coach told me. And we can talk a little bit about it more. But I was so scared that I was going to make people mad that it was keeping me from doing the things I needed to do in regards to email marketing. And what I found was most of the time those people that got really angry with me, they're probably not the people I want to do business with anyway. If they're going to get that angry over an email in their inbox, what else are they going to get really angry about? Any thoughts? There's.

A (11:16)

Yeah, that's always a funny one to me. I got an email recently from somebody, they were like, take me off this list like now. And like all in caps, very angry. And it's interesting because you can just hit the unsubscribe button and like, you know, for my own, for my own newsletter, you know, I make the unsubscribe button very prevalent. It's in the header. And I also give them in the header of my email the date they subscribed just to remind you, just to remind them that, hey, like, you know, you did choose to be on this list. However, anytime you want to be off the list, totally get it. If these emails aren't helping you, here's the unsubscribe link. And the reason I do that is because emails should be wanted and expected. And if you want the best deliverability rate, the best engagement, you want subscribers who want to be on your list and you want to get create content that keeps them on your list. And so if someone doesn't want to be on my list, the best thing they can do is unsubscribe. Because a, you know, you pay for every subscriber. So if they're, if they're annoyed by your emails, you know, it's best if they unsubscribe. And then two, a disengaged email subscriber affects your email deliverability, and a bunch of disengaged email subscribers really affects your email deliverability. So yes, I do get the people who are annoyed and maybe they don't, you know, they're not certain how to unsubscribe. I think some of them maybe forgot that they ever subscribed. And so that's probably the annoyance. But I think in any email program, it is a good thing when someone who doesn't want to be on your list leaves your list 100%.

B (12:58)

Totally agree with you. I think my favorite so far was last year. Stop emailing me all caps u twit. I was like, wow. And then, I mean, I'm with you. I don't hide my. I'm not the guy that, like, puts that 87 lines down, which annoys the crap out of me. Yeah, I'm the guy that makes it. It's right at the end of the email, very big, not hidden at all. So, yeah, that's my favorite one so far.

A (13:22)

It's a score.

B (13:23)

It's interesting.

A (13:25)

It's just interesting how I, you know, I just don't under. I guess maybe people are having a frustrating day and then that's just what set them off the email. But even like Gmail now includes an unsubscribe button at top. So, like, it is, you know, it's pretty easy to. To figure that out. But another one I'll get sometimes is people used to email me with, like, telling me about a typo in an email. They're like, just so you know, you. You have a typo here. And I'm like, that's interest. Thank you. Thank you. But, you know, I am surprised you took the. Your time out of your day to email me about this. And sometimes people would be annoyed about the typo. And I'm like, listen, like, while, like, while every marketer should try to avoid every typo, typos happen. And I'm honestly, I don't, you know, think it's the end of the world, but I always, I always found that funny that people would take time out of their day to do that and then also to be annoyed about it, which is also funny.

B (14:21)

Well, that is interesting how people. That's actually a topic in the book about how we. We can't control what other people do, but we can control how we react to certain situations. Like a typo. Like the one I sent you this morning when I laughed, I'm like, oh, God, I sent a typo to the email marketing queen. Awesome, Kev. Way to go, genius. Look like an idiot. So, yeah, I think I replied one time to somebody. He was really angry. Like four paragraphs of why this is unprofessional and how I need to find better copywriters. I'm like, wow, okay, thanks for the feedback. My copywriter is actually a very close friend of mine and we do have real people writing these emails. Things happen and people make mistakes. How would you suggest that I deal with him and bring this up with him?

A (15:03)

Wow.

B (15:04)

What'd they say they came back with? I don't know. I think you should fire him. I'm like, over a misspelled word. Anyway, it got into this dialogue where I was like, okay, I'm not doing that ever again. Because it just, the guy was pissed off and I was just like throwing fuel in the fire.

A (15:18)

It's funny, I was kind of expecting him to come back and be like, oh, you're right. But no.

B (15:23)

Yeah, that's. No, no, it just went, it got worse. And I was like, okay, don't engage. Just say, no problem, I'll unsubscribe you right away. Things like that. So, yeah, it's really funny how people let things that get to them.

A (15:35)

Yeah.

B (15:36)

Well, I'm sure you see this a lot too. We often see people as business coaches and people working with people that they chase trends rather than focusing on fundamentals like the trend of having AI write your emails. What are some major blind spots that businesses have when it comes to building a long term email marketing strategy?

A (15:55)

So you mean they're, they're, they're chasing trends instead of doing long term effective things?

B (16:00)

Yeah. So they're changing their email strategy like every other day or they read an article like, oh God, I gotta change my whole strategy because I read this article and he must know what he's doing. I saw that happen just yesterday. I'm like, hey, let's not. I think, what do they say? Throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let's not. This thing has been working extremely well. You're getting four to five leads a day from your email marketing. Let's not try something that's unproven.

A (16:22)

Right. And that's where I would recommend a B testing and minimizing potential risk with a B testing. So like, if you're doing something really edgy, that is, or really risky, you know, I would recommend testing it with like 5% of your list and or 10% of your list, depending on list size. If you have a smaller list, you know, 10, 10, 5%, you might not get any statistical significance from that. But if we're talking about risk and minimizing risk, let's say you have a million Email subscribers and you found this trendy new thing you want to try or you want to try an AI written newsletter, then I would talk about minimizing risk in those scenarios. And like you could try testing, you know, let's say you have a weekly newsletter on Thursdays and you want to test AI written newsletters. So for a series of six weeks, you could have six AI written newsletters versus your control, which is your human written newsletter. Send the AI written newsletter to 10% of the list, 90% get the human written newsletter and look at data and compare results. There's um. So if we're, that would be what I would talk about when it comes to a new strategy. I'll never say to anyone like don't do it because what's, what we've always done is working because a new strategy might be really effective. But what I also wouldn't say is throw out what you're doing that's working. You always want to do what's working, which in email marketing, what's working is sending out regular quality content to your list, AB testing, seeing what's. Seeing what's already working and doing more of it. But I think new ideas are great. They just can't be replacing ideas that are already working. And so that's where I think things like ab testing and trying new concepts is important. But at the core you need to be doing the things that make for a quality email marketing strategy, which is regularly sending high quality content, having a permission based email opt in list, cleaning your email list and keeping on track of engagement and optimizing emails.

B (18:36)

Oh, we said cleaning your email list. What do you mean by that? Explain that to some of the listeners for me.

A (18:42)

Yeah, so I've mentioned a few times in this call email deliverability and why it's important to have people on your list who want to be on your list. Sometimes you'll have these, I guess we can call them lurkers on your email list. Or disengaged subscribers would be another name who they're. They don't unsubscribe, they let your emails hit the inbox, they delete them. Or maybe they have like, you know, 30,000 emails in their inbox and they're just leaving your emails there, not engaging with them, not unsubscribing. So there's a few issues with these disengaged subscribers. One, you're getting charged for them and they're not engaging. Two, Internet service providers like Gmail and like Yahoo, one of the ways that their algorithms determine whether an email should get delivered to the inbox is based on prior engagement. So if you have a bunch of subscribers who are not engaging, you're going to have lower click through rates, lower open rates. And so that is a sign to Internet service providers that these emails aren't that great. People don't really want them, they're not opening them, they're not engaging with them. We're going to deliver less of the emails and then that can affect your email reputation. So when it comes down to cleaning your email list, it's finding those disengaged subscribers and getting them off the list, removing them. You can send a re engagement campaign. So you can easily build in, I think any email marketing platform, a segment of disengaged subscribers. So these could be people who haven't clicked on an email in like six months or they haven't opened an email in six months, something like that. And you can, you know, use different, different filters to build that segment, but then you send them a series of emails that's like, hey, do you still want to be on this email list? If so, click this button and if not, we'll remove you. And the goal being to remove those email addresses at the end of the campaign if they haven't re engaged.

B (20:40)

I love it. Great idea. And it sounds like you need to have an email system that can show you those unengaged people. Correct?

A (20:48)

Yeah. And most, most email platforms, that's like table stakes. Most will, will do that. Not necessarily. Maybe not everyone knows how it's done in the particular platform, but usually there is an option to do that.

B (21:03)

I had a person recently tell me that he thinks email marketing is dead. Have you heard that before? And why do you think that belief persists? Because I've heard it a couple of times this last year from people and I'm like, I don't know, I don't think so. But how do you respond to that if you've heard it and if you haven't heard it, it's okay, we'll move on. But I heard it twice last year.

A (21:20)

Okay, yeah, I hear that one all the time. And I've heard that, you know, ever since I started working in the email industry, I've heard that at different times or another. And usually it's followed by email marketing is dead. Here's this marketing tool that I, I sell that now. You should have instead. So like it was for a while, like people with the chat bots. So like email marketing's dead. Need chatbots and it, you know, so sometimes people have an ulterior motive. Right. But it's also funny because people will say email marketing is dead, and then like five minutes later, they're checking their email.

B (21:56)

And that's good. That's so good. Yeah, Perfect. Yeah.

A (22:00)

And so, like, I. I joke about this on LinkedIn a decent amount. I have a few jokes I make about it because they pull out their.

B (22:09)

I'm sorry, they pull out their presence of like. Yeah, email marketing is dead. Right?

A (22:13)

Yeah, Yep. It's funny because it's like by. By professionals and consumers alike. We're in our inboxes all the time. And so it's funny to me that people say it's dead. And I could. I could see why that would come up because it is an older technology. Right. Like, email has been around since, I don't know, 1998 or early in that 1990s, probably early 1990s. I don't know when the first email was sent, but it's been around for a while. And so I think people look at older things and think they're outdated and they're dead. But email has legs like it's held the test of time. And it's just something that maybe we would find a replacement for it, but we haven't yet. And so, like, that's, that's another reason, I think, to invest in it. It's just lasted so long and it's just so widely used, whether we like it or not, whether we hate it or love it. Most people don't love email, but it doesn't really matter because people use it. And I always tell marketers, it doesn't matter if you like the channel or not. Does the channel work? And usually if other companies are using a channel, a marketing channel, it's because it works. And I'll get this as like, TikTok marketing, which is like, you know, a much more modern marketing channel. But like, people be like, well, I don't like TikTok, so we're not going to market there. And I'm like, well, that's a really bad reason to not invest in a channel because you don't like it. And, you know, I think people sometimes think that with email. So anyway, the email marketing is dead. Thing is, I always think it's funny because email is. You look at any data, email's widely, widely used. And email also converts. It's a really great channel for driving sales. And, you know, think of any big brand and they're using email. And those big brands, they're not. They're not idiots. They're using email because it works. It drives sales for them. And, you know, there's a lot of ROI there. And big companies know how to follow data and use data, and that's why they're using email, because it works.

B (24:27)

I love it. Well, you just described a fatal flaw of marketing. I owned a marketing agency for 20 years, and you hear that all the time. And we actually stopped actually taking advice from clients, and that's when our agency really took off because we just started asking them, what's your major goal? What are you trying to do? And a lot of times it's like, look, I just want new customers through the door. Okay, well, you said it a couple times that I don't know if I really like what you're doing, but if I was to show you the results that we're getting, you need to let us do what we know how to do best. And we got to the point where when it came to building websites and putting together campaigns, we wouldn't even let them have any input for 90 days so that we could show them that it works. And eventually we get people to the point where they're like, okay, just do what you guys do. I'm really happy. I don't like it, but it seems to work. Do you see that happening often?

A (25:11)

Yeah, I see that in email and I see that in copywriting, too. So, like in I. I write, I do conversion rate optimization and so I write messaging for companies and specifically conversion focused copy copywriting. So, you know, how do we write the message in such a way that it'll convert? And I have companies who will push back on copy when we're first starting to work together, and they'll be like, oh, the, you know, the copy's too long, it's too negative, it's too. This too much. There's too much voice, there's too much tone, it's too edgy. And, you know, I'll. I'll just tell them, you have to, you have to trust the process. We can a b test this. So if you're afraid of what's going to happen, we can ab test to minimize risk. But you have to trust the process because the copy you see out there in the wild is not converting, like that safe, boring, generic corporate content. And copy does not convert. And so, like, just because your competitor is doing XYZ doesn't mean that that thing is effective. And, you know, sometimes you have to take some risks and sometimes you have to do things that are different. And ideally, in marketing, I think you should often be doing things differently because that's a great way to stand out. And that doesn't mean, like, taking insane risk and it's going to destroy the company, but it does mean trying new things. And so I've gotten to the point with companies where I usually will pitch the copy to them, especially if it's something that they're unaccustomed to. And I'll explain, you know, the XYZ behind the decisions we've made in the copy and the conversion rate strategy and to overcome those objections that they might have before they voice them.

B (26:58)

I love it. And I told a CEO one time, I was like, you're very in a very dangerous position. You've put looking good for your buddies on the golf course ahead of the right messaging for your company, and it's really hurting you. And that's why you came to me in the first place. And he started laughing. He's like, oh, my God, I just showed my buddies on the golf course your long email and they all hated it. And I'm like, but that's not your target audience. That's not who you're trying to market to. But thank you for telling me because this is. I think we need to deal with this before we go any further.

A (27:28)

Right, right. And that's. That's often something I'll say on, you know, on LinkedIn as well, is that it doesn't really matter what your personal opinion of the copy is. It doesn't matter what your colleague's personal opinion of the copy is. Doesn't matter the CEO's personal opinion. Oh, that's a hard battle. But what matters is what the target market thinks. And everyone in your company should be focused on what the target market thinks and how they respond. And are they converting? Are they clicking? Are they buying? Because if they are, then the messaging works. If they aren't, then it doesn't.

B (27:58)

Well, any suggestions on how they can build a list? I haven't run into anybody that's done this in a while until about a week ago. Somebody who's getting new into the influencer game and trying to redo her brand as she leaves corporate America. She's like, well, hey, I've got this company and I can buy emails from them and they will email amount. I'm like, whoa, whoa. No, I've always been taught that's like, really, really bad. Don't ever do that. Any comments there on buying lists? And then I've always been taught that you should, even if it takes longer and you have a smaller List, get your own list. Get permission from those people that want to hear from you. Never buy email lists. Any thoughts or comments on that?

A (28:33)

Yeah, a lot. So when I was a new, brand new marketer, my marketing team and I, we decided to buy an email list and you know, I was like fresh to the game, right? So I didn't know anything. So I was like, oh great, like we can buy this list and all of a sudden we'll have like X number of email subscribers and we can just tell them about what we do and, and sell them on the product. And so we bought this list and it like the open rates and the click through rates on the emails we sent them were terrible. We got no sales and so it was ineffective, which is unsurprising because the lists didn't know who we were. We had no, like they, they weren't, they hadn't expressed any interest or probably had any interest in our product. They weren't the right market. So you know, I know you can buy lists where it is a better target market, but in our case like it was just a list that had not expressed interest. They were not, you know, interested in buying anything. And so it didn't convert. And so even if you do get, you buy a list and it is your target market, again, emails should be wanted and opted in for and asked for because purchase email lists can have a huge negative impact on your email deliverability. You know, I worked at an asp, an email marketing provider, and we had an entire team whose job was to identify if a customer was using purchase lists and then to kick them off the platform if they were. Because, you know, on the email marketing platform on their side, if people are sending to bot email lists, if their customers are sending to purchase email lists, it affects the reputation of their servers, the email marketing provider servers. And so then those servers have a bad reputation and you get lower email deliverability. So the ESPs and the ISPs are working to identify purchase lists and basically blacklist anyone who's using them. So there are spammers who spend a lot of their day just trying to figure out how to trick ESPs and ISPs. But I think that's a really losing strategy, especially for your average marketer. Like, you know, you're fighting Google, like do you really want to have a fight with Google? And my answer is no. So two things on buying lists. To summarize, it's not typically very effective because your subscribers, the people who are receiving it, they're not subscribers. You force them onto the list and it's not gonna be very well received and they might not be anywhere in the buying cycle. So there's that and then two, it's going to affect your email deliverability unless you can, you know, game the system, which is very difficult to do because there are really, really smart people and thousands of them trying to stop you from gaming the system.

B (31:34)

Well, great advice. I was just a little shocked. I haven't heard it in a while, but I guess it still happens and people still get sucked into that bad strategy.

A (31:42)

So yeah, and I do have marketers who tell me they'll be like, hey, like I use purchased email lists and then we find success with it, it works for us. And I'm like, okay, like I wouldn't do it, but like, I'm not going to tell you what you're saying doesn't work. So, you know, some people do it and they find success. I don't recommend it, but yeah, I've.

B (32:04)

Never had to do it. We've always been pretty good about getting subscribers, but once people get subscribers, I think sometimes they struggle to grow and nurture their email list effectively. Do you have any top one or two tips for turning subscribers into long term customers?

A (32:18)

Yeah. Regular email newsletter. So I think a common issue is people get people on their list and then six months later when they have something to sell, they're like, oh, let me send an email now to my subscribers. And the subscribers are first off, they're like, who is this person again? And you know, they just want me to buy something. So that's the first issue. And then the second issue is you affect email deliverability when you don't send regular emails. So a regular email newsletter can prevent this. It doesn't have to be. It could be once a month on the low end and on the high end, I see companies that send daily and there are companies who send multiple times a day. And when it comes down to a daily frequency, if you can send a high quality newsletter daily, I think that's amazing. But the resources that go into that are prohibitive for many companies. So I always say when it comes to email frequency, choose a frequency that you have the resources to effectively manage and to send good content. So I do a weekly newsletter right now, which is a good cadence for me. Some companies might be monthly, some might be twice a week, twice a month. But a regular email newsletter is definitely really key. And then I always say you want to send value to your list before you start just selling them something. And you want to build up that trust and that. That relationship with them before you sell. So the regular email newsletter is good for that as well.

B (33:59)

I love it. And I. I love the fact that you mentioned building a relationship, because I think sometimes people forget that I've. I've always said for years, the biggest competitive advantage you have in any business is the quality and quantity of the personal relationships you take the time to build.

A (34:12)

Yeah, very true.

B (34:13)

You've clearly invested in yourself. One of my favorite questions to ask every guest that I have is, what are your favorite ways to do that? Reading, podcasts, masterminds, coaching. What do you do to invest in yourself?

A (34:25)

Yeah, so I love to read, as you can tell. So I've read. Someone asked me once, have you actually read those books behind you? And I'm like, yes. I. Oh, my God.

B (34:34)

I got the same thing. I don't know if you can see. I know we've got it kind of wide here, but I've got a huge library on either side. I mean, and people like, did you actually. It was a kid, and I was like, did you ever read this book? No, I just buy them and put them on my shelf.

A (34:46)

Yeah. I think the person who asked me thought they were just, like, a showpiece, and I'm like, oh, no, no, I've read them. So I love to read. You know, the English major thing. So I read a lot of books. So reading. I definitely do podcasts when it's a good podcast. Although, you know, I find the struggle of podcasts is you might invest an hour and you don't know what you're getting. Plus, I just like. I like reading.

B (35:12)

Yeah, same here.

A (35:13)

I also take courses, so if I. If I see that there's a course from a company or a creator who I trust, I'll. I'll get a course and take it. And then let's see what else I do. Also like going to conferences, although sometimes it's more about, like, relationship building than, like, actually learning something new.

B (35:34)

Yeah, I agreed. I like the contacts you make, and I still like the live conferences, too, so. But I'm a huge reader. I try to read every day. It's funny because when I took a high school English class, the English teacher said, you really should be reading an hour or two a day. And as a kid, I was like, no way. You know, it's really cutting it on my drinking time anyway. But now as an adult, it's kind of fun because now I do read an hour or two a day, sometimes longer if I really get into something. But, yeah, My favorite way, too. Well, thank you for the time today. You're amazing. Because email marketing, I think, is something that's incredibly ignored. I was so excited to have you on the show when the team found you. Actually, I want to talk to you about working with you as well after the show. But if people need to get in touch with you, to work with you, what's the best way for them to get in touch?

A (36:15)

Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn under Liz Willits. That's one method. And then another is you can email me@lizwillits.com so I'm always available via email. I actually like email and like most people, I check it.

B (36:32)

Okay. Well, I also noticed there was kind of a freebie that you had on your website, a free guide, if I'm not mistaken, they could sign up for if they wanted more.

A (36:39)

Yeah, I have a couple free guides and you can, you can find them on my LinkedIn as well. If you go to my LinkedIn profile, I have an open rate, an email, open rate guide. I also have a guide on LinkedIn and how to. How to write LinkedIn hooks. And let's see, I have a third guide as well on. I don't remember the third one's on, but I have a bunch of three free guides on, on my LinkedIn profile, so you can check them out there.

B (37:05)

Well, great. Well, in the description of the YouTube podcast as well as the audio podcast, we always have a list of resources. So we'll make sure we make those very clear so people can just click on it and get a hold of you quickly. So thank you so much for being here. It was an amazing time. I wish we had more time, but I know you have stuff to do and. And so do I. So anything else you want to leave the listeners with before we shut it down?

A (37:25)

Oh, no, just thanks you for having me, Kevin. It's been fun talking marketing together.

B (37:29)

Yeah, agreed. Thank.