Loading summary
Transcript148 lines
- [00:00]
Sponsor Announcer
This week's episode is sponsored by OM System.
- [00:04]
Paul Mobley
You're listening to the B and H photography podcast.
- [00:07]
Derek Fazbender
For 50 years, B& H has been
- [00:09]
Ian Spanier
the professional source for photography, video, audio and more. For your favorite gear, news and reviews,
- [00:15]
Paul Mobley
Visit us@bh.com or download the B and H app to your iPhone or Android device.
- [00:20]
Ian Spanier
Now here's your host, Derek Fazbender.
- [00:24]
Derek Fazbender
Welcome listeners. I'm Derek Fassmiter, host of the BH Photography Podcast.
- [00:30]
Jill Waterman
And I'm Jill Waterman, the podcast Senior Creative producer.
- [00:33]
Derek Fazbender
And I'm Mike Weinstein, the technical producer and audio engineer. It's been said that the eyes are the window to the soul, and it's a portrait photographer's job to capture that truth. This quote by Marielle and Mark neatly sums up today's discussion with two contemporary portrait photographers whose inspiration is rooted in 20th century masters such as Irving Penn and Richard Avedon. Paul Mobley and Ian Spanier have much in common. From starting their respective careers in New York City before relocating to the west coast, to their knack for forging a human bond with subjects, to an unrelenting drive to create masterful commercial portraits while being equally dedicated to complex personal projects. Over the next hour or so, our conversation will tap these themes and more. But before we begin, here's some additional background about each of our esteemed guests. Paul Mobley is the quintessential portrait photographer with a career that bridges high profile commercial work and deeply human documentary projects. After formal photo training in college and years assisting top image makers, he developed a clean, direct style rooted in precision and genuine engagement with his subjects. Paul's commercial portfolio includes celebrities, athletes and major brands, yet his approach remains consistent across both commercial and personal projects. Build trust, find authenticity and create portraits that capture the soul of his subjects by combining technical clarity with emotional depth. Additionally, he is widely recognized for his long form documentary books, projects that have taken him across the United States to photograph ordinary people, farmers, centenarians, firefighters and community heroes whose stories often go unseen. Paul splits his time between New York and Los Angeles where he lives with his wife Suzanne and their rescued Sharpay Jessie. In his spare time, he loves traveling, especially to Mexico, sampling tequila and visiting Michigan to eat his mother's Italian cooking. Ian Spana began making photos at age 6 with a point and shoot camera received from his parents. A photo major in college, he started out in publishing where he worked as a photo editor for 13 years, but making pictures never left him. He taught himself to shoot with medium and large formats in addition to learning lighting techniques. These Methods did the trick because Ian has since established a long and distinguished client list within editorial, corporate and entertainment industries. He has also published several books, including A Guide to Cigars, Arturo Fuente from 1912, local heroes, America's Volunteer Firefighters, and most recently, a biography featuring nearly two decades of his work in the cigar industry. Ian is a brand ambassador for Westcott Lighting, Spyder, Holster Tether Tools, Think Tank, Evoto, AI and several other brands. Additionally, he regularly lectures and creates video content for Canon B and H Photo and ppofa. Previously a New York resident, Ian now lives with his family in sunny California, although his work still takes him around the world. Paul Mobley and Ian Spanier, welcome to the show.
- [03:48]
Ian Spanier
Thank you.
- [03:49]
Paul Mobley
Thank you very much. Thanks for having us.
- [03:52]
Derek Fazbender
Thank you, guys. Of course. Paul, I want to start with you. You've been making photos since your high school days back in Detroit. Majored in photography at the College of Creative Studies. But after graduating, you decided to take the show to New York. Can you take us back to that decision? What motivated it? Was there something that you wanted in your future that you saw New York as the answer to?
- [04:14]
Paul Mobley
I was in a college in Detroit that primarily focused on product and cars. Detroit's a car town. And I had an instructor who realized that I had no interest in photographing cars or products. And I would turn in all my assignments and they were always models or homeless people or just ordinary people. And he said, listen, you're not going to make it here. If you want to do what you like to do, you got to move to New York. And against my parents wishes, I got on the bus and went to New York two days after I graduated.
- [04:53]
Derek Fazbender
Wasted no time at all.
- [04:55]
Paul Mobley
None.
- [04:57]
Derek Fazbender
Now, before becoming a photographer, you of course assisted some of the greats. I mean, Annie Leibovitz, how long did you spend as an assistant? And is there something that you could take from your days in assisting that you can still look to as something that shaped your career?
- [05:12]
Paul Mobley
I assisted for about four years with two or three key photographers. I tried to work with as many people as I could. Annie I was with on and off for about a year. And I think when I look back on those days, I'm not sure it was a specific photographer. I think it was just New York in general. It really woke me up to how hard I had to work and how good wasn't good enough and that there were a million other guys doing the same thing as me and how could I differentiate myself? So when I look back at New York now, it was just the struggle that's all that comes to mind now.
- [05:51]
Derek Fazbender
Interesting how it doesn't relate to like the work you're doing, but more the environment and the place and the competition of that.
- [05:58]
Paul Mobley
Yeah.
- [06:00]
Derek Fazbender
Now with trying to become your own photographer, trying to find your own voice, your own creative style in working under people, is that a hard balance to achieve? I mean, you're trying to do your job, trying to absorb as much as you can, but at the same time, you obviously want to find yourself as a photographer. How do you balance that?
- [06:20]
Paul Mobley
You know, it was so hard back then because I knew that if I left the comfort nest of working as an assistant and getting a weekly or monthly paycheck, I was going to be on my own. And I doubted myself a hundred times. And I think it just got to a point where I figured if I don't do this, I've just got to get out and try it. And essentially I just stopped assisting on a particular day and had my portfolio and hustled as hard as I could to as many clients that would see me.
- [06:53]
Derek Fazbender
It's always curious to me. I've never assisted a photographer. So is that a conversation that you have? Do they kind of know that assistants are out there and they want to grow on their own and they know that they're not going to be there forever or how does that work?
- [07:08]
Paul Mobley
Usually I think that especially now, young assistants will ask me and obviously I'll tell them to try to pay as much attention to who they're working with. Because each photographer you assist is obviously going to give you something that you'll take with you and learn. But I think everybody has a different plan. Some people assist for eight years, some people go for a year and get a lucky break and they're out of there and shooting on their own. So if there's anything that I've learned doing this is that every single person's story and path in what we do is different for sure.
- [07:46]
Derek Fazbender
Now that's a perfect segue. Over to you, Ian. I guess you were shooting your first cigar images at 6 with that point and shoot, right?
- [07:54]
Ian Spanier
No, definitely not. Definitely not cigars at 6.
- [07:57]
Derek Fazbender
But your path wasn't. I mean, initially you weren't a photographer. When did you decide that you wanted to be a photographer? I mean, you had that past working in publishing and as a magazine editor. Did you have an interest in photography even before then?
- [08:11]
Ian Spanier
So, yeah, obviously I had the camera when I was 6 and I continued with photography, shooting 35 millimeter through high school. And truthfully, the reason I took it up in college was to get the easy A, because I already knew how to use a camera and I knew my way around the dark room and. And the truth of the matter is that I think I've said this too many times before when we've spoken is that I tried my hardest to not be a photographer most of my life. And it just kept coming back. And even as an editor, never intended to shoot. It was three weeks into the first job that I had at GQ magazine where something last minute needed to be photographed. And back then, aging myself slightly, we did not have digital, so it had to be shot on film. And without time to make the assignment or even send the book out to one of our regular photographers, I volunteered to do it. And that started a six and a half year still life career.
- [09:05]
Paul Mobley
Wow.
- [09:07]
Derek Fazbender
And what took you to people? I mean, going from still life to portraits, different world there. It's a little bit of a jump, definitely.
- [09:14]
Ian Spanier
I mean, I tell people often I pretty much have shot every subject matter at some point or another, what sort of grew as my mo. And there wasn't many photo editors at the time who were shooting. I think there was about three of us who were diligently doing both. And essentially things would come up so an author portrait needed to be made. Person might only be in town at the offices for that day, hey, Ian, can you bring your camera in and throw up a light and shoot portrait? Because this guy is here, he's only here for 10 minutes, that kind of thing. So it grew out of necessity to some degree. And I think the other area that it came from was my willingness to try lots of things, find my way as a photographer, because I wasn't going about it from a traditional sense in terms of what the New York scene was about at that time. Which sounds more like Paul's route where you go from college to assisting, assisting to discovering yourself and then discovering yourself enough to the point that you have a portfolio and you shop it around, et cetera, et cetera. I definitely came in from a different door.
- [10:17]
Derek Fazbender
Now, you were aware of Paul's work as an editor, right?
- [10:20]
Ian Spanier
Of course. Yeah, absolutely.
- [10:21]
Derek Fazbender
And what was it that stuck out about Paul's work to you?
- [10:24]
Ian Spanier
I mean, his portraits, 100%.
- [10:27]
Derek Fazbender
Now, both of you having inspiration from the masters, Pen Avedon. Is there something I'd be interested to hear? What particularly is of interest about photographers like that? Because obviously we all have our little quirks and we all have things that stick out to us about a particular art artist's work. I'd Love to hear. Starting with you, Paul. What is it about Avedon Penn that really drew you?
- [10:56]
Paul Mobley
This is a great question. I mean, I became a photographer because of Irving Penn. I remember at a very young age in college, looking at his work and thinking that every picture he made was perfect. I'd have so many great Irving Penn stories of when I was assisting and we could spend all day talking about Irving Penn. But for me, I just think even today, people ask me all the time, who are your favorite photographers? And I gotta tell you, I don't have that many. Everybody does good work. But with pen and Amadon Penn, by far number one, Dick Ammidon right behind him. And then three, four, and five are miles behind. I just think the works that they've done are bold and powerful. And I hope in my lifetime that I'll do a picture half as good as Mr. Penn did. It's really the reason I became a photographer.
- [11:50]
Derek Fazbender
That tracks with you, Ian. I know he probably took your answer there, right?
- [11:54]
Ian Spanier
But I was there anything gonna say the same thing. It sounds like he's channeling my brain right now. You know, it's funny because obviously I was attracted to Paul's work as an editor for what I saw, which goes in that line of thought process of a pen and an Avadon. For me, PEN is number one mostly for me, because he literally shoots everything. And that's the thing that I've very much so have fought upstream with my entire career and still do today, of trying to explain to people that photographers shoot what they see. And that doesn't work for every photographer. But I happen to be that style of a photographer that if I can light it, I can shoot it. And I define portrait very loosely in that I don't care if it's a coffee cup or a CEO or a celebrity or a top musician. I'm still making a portrait. And going back to what I said about that still life experience and your question about moving on to people. What I did in still life, I applied to people and vice versa. So it's all tied together. And that influence, I think, comes very much so from Irving Penn. And then as far as Avedon, I mean, once I saw the west series, I was hooked a thousand percent. I mean, I was in France earlier this year and sidetracked to go see his show that was up and it just happened to be the American west show. And I know those images like the back of my hand, but I still wanted to go see it in person.
- [13:25]
Jill Waterman
Ian, I just want to open the door up A little more to the influence from the 20th century. Masters. I heard you on a podcast say you have a rather special relationship that you developed with Harry Benson. How did Harry Benson's work affect your vision?
- [13:44]
Ian Spanier
Well, it still does every day, is what I would say. That. I mean, if you've ever heard Harry speak, he has a very shrill Scottish voice. And in my brain constantly is him saying all of the things he said to me the years that I've known him. I was very, very fortunate in that he walked into the GQ offices when I was an intern there. I don't know what it was, maybe because my first name is Scottish, I don't know. But he took a liking to me and very much so I would consider as my mentor. And we used messengers back then to pick up jobs from photographers. And he would make me go and pick it up. He would always say, oh, this one's too important for a messenger. And then I'd go up to his apartment to pick it up, and then he would take me out to lunch and he would just tell me stories upon stories. And each of those stories over the years have come true to me in that I was in situations maybe not as extreme as some of the ones he was in, but sometimes, maybe. And having known what he did then and then me doing something, my version of it definitely has shaped me very much so as a photographer. And so much of his work is, to me, undervalued in the photography community. I think it's one of those things where I often say, oh, yes, Harry Benson was my mentor. And people are like, oh, I'm not familiar with his work. And then I start mentioning pictures. Oh, I know that picture. I know that picture. And his quick cv. And then pretty much people are like, yeah, okay, I know who you're talking about. And his imagery and his style of photography very much related to the psychology. And the connection of psychology and photography is really what stuck with me, I think the most interesting.
- [15:30]
Derek Fazbender
Now, Paul, you mentioned the environment of New York and what really drives you and drove you early in your career. And you guys obviously both started your careers in New York and then, strangely enough, both ended up in la. What is the vibe and the presence and the industry like in LA versus New York or at that time? I mean, we can talk about the changes since then, but when you guys both first left New York and went to la, can you talk about what the scene was like there compared to New York?
- [16:01]
Paul Mobley
To me, they're very different because even today, and I think it's Always been this way. But for me, when I shoot in New York, I feel like I like the pacing better, the people on set, the art directors, just the New Yorkers in general like to move at a pace that I'm used to. I tend to be very on time and very quick in my shooting. I don't vacillate too much. You know, there's a grind in New York that I don't feel on the West Coast. I find when I shoot in Los Angeles, which I'm actually doing way more than New York, it's a little more laid back and I like to move a little quicker in life. And just in general, I think that's the New York personality of myself. Even though we end up with the same thing, at the end of the day, everything I do in New York seems to be more productive and the volume's up a little higher, if you know what I mean.
- [16:53]
Derek Fazbender
Ian, same for you.
- [16:55]
Ian Spanier
I have to admit that the first time I came out here, this is my second time around. The first time I went straight from New York City and came out here and absolutely hated it. Didn't even last two years and went right back to New York. And I think in line with what Paul is saying, part of that is the people that I was dealing with, I still had that New York mentality. Very much so, head down, grindstone, all that stuff. And fast Forward to this second time around. Now, I've been here for 10 years and I think I underappreciated the lifestyle and certainly the weather and year round golf the first time around. But the reality is that my quote unquote, New York style works out here for me. Well, because just like Paul, I'm that guy that shows up on time if you're there 15 minutes before you're late. So that reliability, that sense of the job is number one. Which goes back to Jill's question. That was one of Harry's lines all the time, your job is to get the job done. And that I hear over and over and over in my head. And as well, what I saw when I was photo editing, which was at that time, there was a different light to the photographers in LA versus New York. And quite often magazine budgets were much better. Back then. Of course, we would fly photographers to LA because we liked the east coast style much, much more than the LA photographers. No offense to the LA photographers, but it was just different. And it didn't speak to the magazines at that time. And being maybe somebody who somewhat was doing okay in New York and then moved to la, you feel a little bit like a bigger fish in a slightly smaller pond. And then you get humbled by the fact that, you know, it's a completely different animal out here and it's a town of who you know, and it's name based and it's this and it's that and all those other challenges are there. So you have to find your way differently. And nobody cares that you're from New York. So, you know, the world's constantly changing. And I'm also very much. And I say this to photographers all the time. When young photographers say, you know, what's the best advice? I always tell them, shoot, shoot, shoot. That's the thing that you need to do. But then they say, well, how come you're so open about your style of shooting and you share your bts and even your lighting diagrams and things like that? And I was like, cause you're never gonna out hustle me. And that's my attitude. And maybe you are a better hustler than me, but I don't believe that. I believe I will always be that hustler. And that comes from that New York thing. I think I could be wrong though.
- [19:29]
Paul Mobley
Yeah. And I'd like to add on to that what Ian was saying. I came out west because of the lifestyle I'd been grinding in New York, living in the concrete jungle for a long time, and I just had had enough. But the one thing I remember, very early in my days in New York, a guy said to me, you know, even though New Yorkers are gruffy and they get in your face and, you know, sometimes they can be rude, some of the best friends you will ever make in your life will be New Yorkers, because once they're your friend, they'll be your friend forever. And when I look back, that is so true. You know, my close, close friends in Los Angeles, I could count on one hand at best. And just like Ian said, that you know who you know. But boy, if you make a friend in New York, they're. They're going to be with you till the end.
- [20:19]
Ian Spanier
It is funny out here too. We, I don't know about you, Paul, but we tend to navigate to other East Coasters, even other states on the East Coast. But 100, for some reason we find each other. It's just like you immediately connect and you just see a difference in everything, the friendships that you form. Yeah, every, every asp of it, 100%.
- [20:40]
Derek Fazbender
Well, it's no different than when a new art director comes in. They're going to Bring in their people that they're used to working with. They're going to bring their photographers that they're used to hiring. Is it similar, you know, is that part of what it is is you're bringing in people who are used to the lifestyle that you're used to and that kind of bleeds into your work or your way of working, your style of working.
- [21:03]
Ian Spanier
I don't quite know how it works. It's just really one of those things. It's a vibe thing. I think as cliche as that sort of sounds, the reality is that the attitude, I think we get formed by growing around New York or in big cities like New York is very different than here and akin to what Paul said about the laid backness that's here. I don't know if it's the same today as it was, you know, 20 years ago, but certainly 20 something years ago when I came out here, I was like, do you guys even want to work? Like, this is crazy to me. Like they've been trying and you know, in New York I knew some photographers who, I mean, there was one guy in particular who told me this story about how he smoked way too much fun stuff and let his career go and he disappeared. And he was on the rise big time and he disappeared as a result. And I feel like a lot of the guys out here are just so loose about their careers and they'll move out to the desert and then just be like, oh yeah, I'm coming back. And I'll just be like, what? Like that's just. Now stop. Like you gotta, you gotta stay. You can't do anything like that.
- [22:12]
Paul Mobley
But to your point about art directors coming and going and bringing their own people in, I had a great old time professor at college in our senior year and he was a great guy with a lot of knowledge, had a great career as a car photographer. And I remember so many times throughout the year when we were graduating, he said, you guys, let me tell you something. You want to be a big time photographer, that's great. But please remember 10% of your job is taking pictures. The other 90% is putting out the fires, checking your equipment, chasing clients. And even today, when I really think about how much I do in a day or in a week and how much I'm actually behind the camera pushing the button. He's right. It's so much of all of what we've just gone over, it's non stop interesting.
- [23:07]
Derek Fazbender
I mean, it's more about, I guess, the business and like you said, the putting out the fires. Professional photographers are more problem solvers than they are artists a lot of the time, I think.
- [23:18]
Paul Mobley
So.
- [23:19]
Ian Spanier
I agree. It's really hard to be a business person. As an artist, I used to do a lecture on that very thing. Because the reality is. And Paul, you literally took the words out of my mouth that I would literally say 10% of the time is what you shoot. You're not behind the camera very often. So everything else that you utilize to form your business, and I used to liken it to a house that your foundation is your talent, and every room and structure of the house that's built after that is how you invoice, how you treat people, how you build your crew for jobs, how you interact with clients and potential clients, and how you deliver the job. And all those other pieces speak much bigger volume than just your ability to press a button or light a situation. And I'm seeing it more and more now. Our market is flooded with photographers, right? Everyone with an iPhone is a photographer at this point. And the reality is, how do you stand out as a photographer as a result of that? And the truth is, it's how you run your business that really matters. The talent piece is absolutely more than ever the given. They know that you know how to make an image. Now, what do you do with every other part of how you deliver, how you show up, how you put your crew together, how you even send that invoice? I laugh when assistants send me an invoice on a word doc. I'm like, no, no, no, no. You need a system. You need to be using some kind of a system that shows that you are professional, you're a business. You're not just a individual anymore.
- [24:50]
Sponsor Announcer
Mm.
- [24:51]
Derek Fazbender
It's interesting you say that. Is. Is are there little things that, you know, particularly for the people who are out there listening and they want to break in, and any little tip or trick can help or probably more importantly, can hurt. Are there little things like that that are just red flags for someone who's trying to assist in trying to get their feet wet and break into this industry? Are there little things like that that are just giant red flags that you'll see from people who are younger or not as experienced as you?
- [25:17]
Ian Spanier
Both, I would say absolutely. I mean, obviously, the example of the word document thing, that. That drives me crazy. Sweaty palms drives me crazy. I don't know why, but if they shake my hand and their hands are wet, I'm like, seriously. But the other piece to me is, you know, how you show up? Are you professional? In how you present yourself. And are you going to be taken seriously in that way? And, you know, you're talking to a guy who wears a hat every day. So I show up in a baseball hat, but, you know, but I present myself with all the other parts to sort of compliment that in a way that it doesn't become about me showing up in a baseball hat. It's more like, oh, that's his look. Okay, cool. And that's part of my brand. That's what it's become. The black T shirts become part of my brand. And I think that it's amazing when you see with young people today how innate marketing is to them, how they understand how to use social media, how they can literally become zillionaires in a moment's time. And we can't even operate our phones at that level. And the reality is that what they might be missing is the interaction with people, because most of us live in our phones nowadays. Right. So can you actually carry a conversation? Are you interesting enough that somebody wants to have a coffee with you, wants to meet you somewhere and look at your work and how you present yourself, not just from the portfolio, but everything else from that.
- [26:43]
Paul Mobley
Ian spoke about what not to do. For me, what you should do is I tell a lot of young people to learn their craft. A lot of people that are shooting with iPhones don't know how to light. They don't understand lighting. They've never been in a dark room. And I still believe today, especially with the resurgence of film, you know, learn your craft. If you really want to be a photographer, learn your craft from the ground up. And the other one that's really big for me is I always look for assistance that anticipate what my next move will be. Nothing irritates me more than to say, could you please go pick that up? You know, that's in the shot. Could you get it out of there? The best ones, they know what's coming next. And that's typically why I like to work with the same people, because they just know my behavior and what I'm going to do next. And it makes it so much easier for us.
- [27:37]
Derek Fazbender
Interesting. It's not just somebody who knows the ins and outs, but is really learning you as a person and how you work as a photographer. That's interesting.
- [27:47]
Ian Spanier
Well, that goes back to that psychology connection with photography. 100% of the way that you become a good assistant is to anticipate and read your photographer's mind, essentially. And that's a rare breed. And when you Find those people. Yeah, you hang on to them.
- [28:04]
Paul Mobley
You know, back in the day, I'd always have to tell assistants to quit talking to the clients and keep their mouth shut. I would constantly, before we'd start a shoot, say, you guys, sip it. Nothing. And today these kids are so on their phones and quiet. It's like, now I gotta wake them up, you know, because they're so sheepish and you can look somebody in the eye when you're talking to them. That would be a good start, you know.
- [28:31]
Derek Fazbender
Interesting. I want to go back to that 10% of the time that you guys are behind the camera. You guys obviously both have a breadth of experience with different systems from film to digital. How important is the gear to us photographers and these decisions for choosing which focal length or choosing a certain setup for a particular portrait. Can you guys talk a little bit about the gear that you guys use a day to day basis, what's your go to? And more importantly, in a wider discussion, how it relates to developing a style or a look as a photographer?
- [29:07]
Paul Mobley
Well, I'm going to get in trouble for saying this because I did on my last podcast, a couple of weeks ago, I did a podcast and I said to the guy, you know, equipment's not important. It's what comes out of your heart and your mind and your eyes. I actually used the term that sometimes think of yourself as a surgeon. The camera is just a scalpel to do the operation. And a couple people called in and said, what do you mean the equipment's not important? And I didn't really mean it in that way. I just try to get people to focus on the image and what's in front of them. And it really is a connection between two people. Right. So I think the equipment is, for me, absolutely secondary. I have shot with every camera you can shoot. And if I've got a subject that's really given me something, I could shoot with an old broken 35 millimeter film camera. And I know I'm good, but if I don't have my subject, my subject's off in La La land and not paying attention. And I could have the best equipment in the world. So obviously I use good gear. I like to shoot medium format and I always take a film camera with me just for conversation. Sometimes a famous person will see me pull out an old Pentax 6x7 and say, oh my God, that's amazing. I know that camera. And sometimes I don't even shoot with it. I just do it to maybe get a spark or get somebody engaged. That's really the hardest part. Once you've got them engaged, there's no camera in the world right now that won't record what you're doing. Ian, I don't know if you agree, but that's clearly my opinion on equipment right now.
- [30:47]
Ian Spanier
I do believe that very much so. And to me, it's one of those things that the gear is important to me for reliability in that I don't want to be twisted and tied up by the gear. So it's important to me to have the equipment that supports how I work so that it's not something I'm thinking about in that way, in that I can focus on my subject so that that is a number one. Again, my job is to get the job done. And quite often I do have 30 seconds or 2 minutes or 10 minutes total. And I literally just did a shoot two weeks ago. I was told I have 10 minutes, and ambitiously, I'll do three setups. If I can't rely on the gear to work like I work, then I'm screwed, right? But one of those setups was natural light. And as we all know, you can use your equipment to control natural light, but you can't tell the sun what to do. You can't tell it what time of day you're shooting, all those things. So knowing your gear is essential to being able to create the situation for the good image. Right? And that can be as to what Paul said, a broken 35 millimeter camera from 1970. It can be an iPhone, it can be X, Y or Z. It's still the person who's behind it that makes the difference. And again, that goes to what I was saying earlier about not having a problem sharing how I do stuff, because I don't believe any other photographer is going to take the same exact image I'm going to take, even with the exact same lighting, same settings, all those things. I get asked quite often, what f stop did you shoot at? And this is where I get myself in trouble. And I said, it doesn't matter. You know, it's what worked for the image. And the way that I typically approach. I still use a light meter, and I believe very much so in the importance of light meters. And part of the reasoning behind it that I explain to people is because I've taught my brain to think in aperture settings. And so I know going into a photo shoot already what the aperture setting that I ideally want to be shooting at to tell the story that I'm telling that day. And so I'm utilizing Those apertures along with the light and how I'm manipulating or utilizing it to help push that narrative forward. Because at the end of the day, that's my job, to tell a story without words. Right? So given all that, me telling you, oh, I shot this at 5.6. It doesn't matter.
- [33:18]
Paul Mobley
Doesn't matter.
- [33:19]
Ian Spanier
It worked for what the story was. But people don't always want to hear that. They want to know, well, what were your settings? Because they want the quick and easy pill that's just going to put them there.
- [33:29]
Paul Mobley
And when I hear that, Ian, I immediately tell somebody, get off the technical.
- [33:34]
Ian Spanier
You know, we're brothers, apparently. Yeah, we didn't know this, but, yeah, we're brothers.
- [33:41]
Paul Mobley
My grandmother, she was from Italy, and for 25 years, we sat her in front of the big pot of spaghetti sauce and said, you know, Nona, please teach my wife to make this sauce. What's the recipe? And she had no recipe. She'd throw this in, and she did it by taste and feel. And that's exactly how I shoot. You know, one of your questions is, what's my favorite lens? You know, a lot of times I'll use zoom because I never go into a shoot saying, okay, today it's f16. It's an 85 millimeter lens. I kind of roll with what's in front of me. And if at the last minute they tell me I can't use flash, well, how quickly can I make that adjustment? And now the photography God said, look, you got to do something with a flashlight on your phone or you're going to have to shoot natural light. And there's no natural light. It's never the same. It's never the same.
- [34:36]
Ian Spanier
The other thing I would say to that is, as much as I preach about light meters and understanding, it's more about understanding light. And that's the important part to me, I always tell people that feel trumps technical any day. So if you are shooting at F8 and you read your light at F8, it doesn't mean that's the right exposure. If it feels better at five, six and a half, or it feels better at 11, so be it. You know, you have to be able to be flexible enough to make those adjustments, not only for who your subject is, but, as I said, the story that you're trying to tell, but also what feels right. And when Paul was talking about, you know, young photographers learning their craft and understanding, there's nothing more important in photography than the idea of understanding light. Because when you understand it, you know, how you can manipulate it, you know, how you can utilize it. You can be that person that always delivers the job that way because you can see in your mind's eye the picture before you take the picture. And when you get to that point, then it's just the muscle that you exercised enough to become instinct. And that's where the Avedons and the pens really shine because you see that their instinct was just spot on with the way that they worked.
- [35:54]
Paul Mobley
You know, every year I teach a workshop in Santa fe and there's 10 students who sign up. And without making it a very long, drawn out story, there's always a couple that show up with every lens, every body, every camera and can't wait to show it to me. And at the end of the week, you can only imagine who's doing the best work. 99% of the time it's the kid who has one lens on their camera and is not too technicalized, if that's a good word to use. They have not let the equipment take them over.
- [36:29]
Derek Fazbender
Wow, that is a great conversation. It is also a perfect time to take a short break and we'll continue this after the break. But let's stand up, stretch, shake it out. If you're already standing, have a seat, relax. And when we come back, we'll delve more into the nuts and bolts of portrait photography and lighting techniques with Paul Mobley and Ian Spanier.
- [36:51]
Sponsor Announcer
Designed for street photography enthusiasts, the OM3 from OM system is the perfect partner to accompany you on your journeys. The portable packable Micro four thirds mirrorless camera is ideal for cityscapes and urban street scenes. And it comes in a classic elegant SLR design. This powerful camera can capture stunning stills and cinema quality video. With features such as AI detection, autofocus, robust image stabilization, an adjustable film like image profile, a creative dial, computational features and weather sealing. And right now save $300 on the camera body that will arrive ready for your next expedition? Head over to B&H.com for more information on the OM system. OM3 mirrorless camera.
- [37:35]
Derek Fazbender
And we are back with Paul Mobley and Ian Spanier. Now, I like where we left off. I feel like finding something outside of the technical, but it came from a place of preparation and having intention and knowing where the shoot was going to go, kind of visualizing this. So I want to go back into this and I am taking it that both of you guys are doing as much research as possible. Not just to know where you want the shoot to go, but as far as the subject is concerned, can you talk a little bit about the preparation in terms of who you're photographing rather than the visualizing the final product.
- [38:11]
Ian Spanier
Basically, for me, I'm very much so trying to get from my clients the keywords as to what they need. Right. My job is to be their voice on the photo shoot. So I'll ask the questions and extrapolate the words that will help me translate that into how I'm going to light the job, how I'm going to shoot the job and approach it. In general, I am a prep guy, so I do often sketch out my lighting scheme beforehand. I've had these books since the beginning of my career. It was really the way that I taught myself. Lighting was. I was fortunate to be on set with great photographers like Albert Watson and obviously Harry Benson and Frank Achenfels and people like that. So I was able to see how they worked and then started coming up with ideas for myself and trying different things. And so just as a habit slash, great way to have a distraction on set. If my computer freezes and I need to hand off my notebook to the client to say, oh, here's some of the work I've been doing lately, things like that, or at the very least, if I have to deal with the clients, I can handle the notebook to my assistants and say, this is the lighting scheme for today and go ahead and set it up, and then I'll step on and tweak it once I'm free. So for me, prep is very important. But that also has grown as I've grown as a photographer to become the thing that I have a launching pad at all times. So in those situations where, like Paul said, they tell you, oh, you can't use flash in here, or you have to shoot natural light, but there's no windows, or, you know, you have to use your iPhone light or whatever's available. I have that flexibility because to me, if I have a plan and it fails or it doesn't work for the client, or if the subject doesn't like the lighting or whatever the case might be, I now have a place to go forward as opposed to not have any options. And being somebody that shoots a lot of different lighting styles, it means that I have all these tricks in my bag that I can yank at any time when something changes or we have extra time, let's do another shot, or, hey, can you do some natural light portraits? I know we've been in the studio all day. All this stuff, being able to recognize all those options available to me, it just makes me More valuable as a solution finder. As we talked about earlier, being photographers who are problem solvers, again, I never call them problems. I call them challenges. And challenges have solutions. And that's the way I always see it.
- [40:43]
Paul Mobley
For me, I have kind of loosened up my pre prep. Obviously, I like to know about my person, but the first thing I want to do is get in front of my subject and just sit with them. So if they say to me, you've got 10 minutes, the hardest thing for me is I have to, as quickly as possible, look at that person and see. I mean, maybe I'm not going to just take the camera and shove it right in front of their face. I might take three of those 10 minutes to talk about the fact that they like to fly fish in Montana and I'm wasting some valuable shoot time, but it might get me on track. So for me, when I get on set, the first thing I want to do is get in front of my subject, even if I'm just sitting next to them while they're being made up. And I watch their mannerisms, I watch the way they're turning their head. And in my mind, I've almost made the picture before we've come on set because I noticed the way they kept putting their hands on the side of their face or the way they would raise one eyebrow when they'd speak. So. And I think if you get that subject in a good comfort level where they like you, you may have to take half your 10 minutes to do it, but you're going to get a picture. So I've loosened up my prep a little bit in favor of trying to win over and make my subject as comfortable as possible.
- [42:11]
Derek Fazbender
Interesting. Does that take any pressure off you or is there any pressure anymore? Paul, at your stage, are you. Do you just come in there and it's kind of just business as usual?
- [42:19]
Paul Mobley
Oh, I think it's worse than ever because if you've made some great images, you almost have to always make great images, especially if a client has hired you based on your work or who you are. For me, maybe it's just my personality. Every shoot for me is extremely stressful. And like every photographer I know at a high level, they always walk away saying, oh, man, why didn't I do that? Or I should have done that. You know, you're driving back and you think, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I missed that. So I'm still looking for the perfect image in my life. But, yeah, it's a real struggle for me.
- [43:00]
Derek Fazbender
Yes, there's a collective sigh out there when everybody listens to that, like, oh, I don't feel so bad now.
- [43:08]
Paul Mobley
I don't want to say it's no fun, but it's. Especially if it's a high level person. It's a tremendous amount of stress, I think, to try to do something amazing. That's what we're all trying to do.
- [43:20]
Derek Fazbender
Yeah. And just hearing you put it out there, like if you've made great work and you're expected to always make great work, it hits a little differently. When you hear it like that and you think about it and you're like, yeah, it's not like you have a low bar to hit. And you just like, okay, I can. That can hit this. You're going out there with an incredibly high bar to hit. And not every situation is going to be the same as we've talked about a few times now. It's problem, solution or overcoming challenges, as Ian would state. Can you guys talk about what does get in the way of you really putting something out there? Great. Are there difficult situations that come up regularly or things that you find yourself having to tackle or go with, you know, go with the flow on More often than not, for me, I find
- [44:11]
Paul Mobley
that it's the gatekeepers sometimes, as Ian I'm sure will agree. You go through 25 people and 200 emails to finally get that 5, 10, 30 minutes with your subject. And once you get to your subject, you realize they're usually very nice people and they're easy to work with. But for me, the hardest part is I call them the gatekeepers. All the people from the publicists to the managers, everybody that is surrounding my subject until I finally get to be with them one on one.
- [44:48]
Derek Fazbender
Ian, is that hit for you times when you to get to the person to get to the subject is like climbing a mountain. And you get to the subject and you're like, wow, this person's the most chill, coolest person ever.
- [45:00]
Ian Spanier
I don't know if I quite see it the same way. I think that I approach all the jobs knowing that that's my job, right. And all those distractions, they're not in my way in terms of getting the job done. It's just a matter of I'm here to deliver something and that's what I'm going to do. And if I have to appease those gatekeepers, which we all have to, so be it. I've got my thing dialed in to the place where I'm confident that I can always come through. And I don't stop until I know I have it. I'll stop shooting when I know I have it. And I think at this point, it's that, at least for me, that prep that I do puts me in a position that I know that I'll get something for my client that is going to check that box. Now, what Paul said about the drive home, of course, that happens big time. Because if I only had one more setup, or if I only had one more minute, or if I had one more assistant who could have gotten a light up while I was shooting this and I was thinking about that shot, those thoughts are never ending. But I guess I see it slightly different in that I know what my job is. And even though on set I'm the quiet one, I'm still the director. I'm still the one controlling the situation. I lit it. I'm the one pushing the button. So all those gatekeepers, to me, I can appease them or at least make them believe that they're being appeased. But at the end of the day, even my subject doesn't know that. And, Derek, you've seen me do this in person, but I do a little game with them where I put them in a position where they feel like they're in charge with complete intent so that I can get what I need, because they don't realize that I'm controlling every piece of what creates that image other than them. And now I've just controlled them, and they didn't even recognize that I did that. That's a Harry Benson technique right there.
- [46:58]
Derek Fazbender
So, you know, how do you guys balance? I mean, you obviously get to a point in your career where you're being hired for the work that you put out, and a certain part of that is who you are and the style that you've cultured. How do you balance that with dealing with the vision of a creative director or of any of these other decision makers or gatekeepers? How do you still keep your stamp? Do you have to exert a little ego at some point, or is it really just communication?
- [47:29]
Ian Spanier
I mean, for me, I would say that the recognizing factor of you're hiring me for what I do was a tough pill to swallow. I spent a good 10 years, I would say, just doing what I thought the client wanted. And still to this day, often we'll just do that because maybe it's a time factor, or maybe it's just, you know, the job has gotten to the place where it's so specific. We're really just there to press the button. And that Is it? But the realization I had at some point that particularly when the industry changed with smaller photo departments, especially with editorial, a lot of jobs I do, I'm by myself. There might not be a creative director on set, there might not be a photo director doing anything other than connecting me with my subject. And certainly during COVID that happened a ton. I was basically at celebrities homes or in a studio with a celebrity. And even a publicist might not even be there on those jobs. And so it was up to me to deliver. And I think that helped bolster that confidence. But confidence doesn't necessarily equate to ego, in my opinion. And so for me to have that sort of feeling that it's my job to just go and deliver what I do, then I started to approach photoshoots from that direction, that, that confidence that you're hiring me because I do what I do and I'm here to not only be the guy that has the solutions to those challenges, but also delivers a certain quality of work that will sell the product or work on the key art poster or be the editorial story that you need so that you can write around it. And that's adapting to the change in the industry, which I think people underrate quite a bit. They don't realize that adaption is a huge part of staying in a space of longevity as a photographer.
- [49:26]
Paul Mobley
Yeah, I agree. And I have found, at least for the last few years for me, people hire me for what I'm doing. And so I've really noticed over the last couple years that they let me do my thing. And that's really comforting when you don't have 20 people over your back or looking at the monitor telling you what they want you to do. And it just makes my job much easier for sure.
- [49:51]
Derek Fazbender
Paul, who's at the top of your bucket list if you had to photograph somebody? Let's go. Living, not dead or alive. Somebody's still living. Is there anybody that's at the top of your list that you would love to photograph?
- [50:02]
Paul Mobley
Paul McCartney.
- [50:03]
Derek Fazbender
That was quick. That was. That was a no brainer.
- [50:06]
Paul Mobley
I've only been working on it for five years and I. I'm hoping 2026 is my year.
- [50:11]
Derek Fazbender
Interesting. Ian, Bruce Springsteen, musicians. I love how you guys both went. You guys really are. Are you guys distant relatives or.
- [50:19]
Ian Spanier
I think we're blood related somewhere down the line. Are you Scottish, Paul? Um, I came close in that I was given an assignment to shoot a concert, but it's not my bag for sure. And it was very disappointing in that I was Stuck in the sound booth 500ft away, and we only got three songs, which I had learned was a thing. I never knew that was a thing, but that's the closest I've gotten. So technically, I've already shot them, but not the way that I would prefer to. So if the opportunity ever came up to do the best a portrait that, yeah, hands down, that's who I want to shoot.
- [50:53]
Derek Fazbender
Now, are you more nervous for that, or you guys. Have you guys visualized this shoot in your head for when it happens? We're going to throw it out into the ether.
- [51:01]
Paul Mobley
Oh, it's already made in my mind. I know exactly what I would do, and I've told Paul's manager numerous times exactly what I would do. So, yeah, no, I have it in my mind. It's all set.
- [51:14]
Derek Fazbender
30 seconds. You get 30 seconds with Paul.
- [51:16]
Paul Mobley
You're.
- [51:16]
Derek Fazbender
You're good.
- [51:17]
Paul Mobley
Ian's going to laugh because he knows it's true. But I've had some situations where I've been set and ready and had less than 30 seconds, and they've walked off set, and I got what I needed, so I could do it. I could do it. Especially if I was able to say to the subject, okay, we only have 30 seconds. Here's exactly what I want you to do. Cameras are on stand there. I'm good.
- [51:42]
Derek Fazbender
There's that confidence. You were just talking about Ian.
- [51:44]
Ian Spanier
That's it.
- [51:45]
Derek Fazbender
I could feel that.
- [51:46]
Paul Mobley
Yeah.
- [51:47]
Ian Spanier
Well, I mean, I will be honest with you. I don't really get nervous. It's not my sort of way. I have no fear switch, unfortunately. And, you know, that gets me in trouble sometimes. But the reality is that it's that situation where I think he would make me a little nervous, more that I just want to nail it more than anything else. But I'm so good at blindsiding all the noise when I have my subject in front of me. A perfect example of, from what Paul just said, and I was laughing, is that, you know, I had Jeff Bridges impromptu photo shoot. I was shooting something else. He happened to be across the street, and the writer for the same editorial client got him to come over and said, hey, we have a setup. Can you come and do a portrait? I had 18 frames, and every single frame is usable. And it's because I was able to say, this is where you are. This is what you're gonna do. You know how this works. You're a photographer. Here's how it goes. And I'm just gonna be back there, and if I don't say anything, you're good. And let's go. And he knew, and he gave me the look at the end. I knew he was done and that was it. And I'd imagine in my head that's what a Springsteen shoot would be like, where it would just be like, yeah, I've done this a zillion times. You're gonna get what I'm giving you, and that's how it's gonna go.
- [53:06]
Paul Mobley
It's not the subjects that make us nervous. It's worrying to death that we're gonna get the shot. Trust me. You could put the most famous person in front of me, and I'm cool, but I'm worried inside. Like, am I going to get the picture? That's the worry for me.
- [53:24]
Derek Fazbender
And the shot that you're not going to be on the drive home, you're going to get, the one that you have been dreaming about your entire career
- [53:32]
Paul Mobley
or usable, the one you get, the image you'll get that'll change your career. Always happens as an accident. It will never be intentional. Trust me. It'll be a mistake that all of a sudden turned out to be your best image.
- [53:48]
Derek Fazbender
Wow.
- [53:50]
Jill Waterman
So here's a question. You both are really into preparation, and with a lot of these celebrities, you have very limited time as part of your preparation. Do you ever do a test with someone else in the frame?
- [54:08]
Paul Mobley
Always, for me. Always. You just put them in there?
- [54:12]
Ian Spanier
Yeah. Even if it's myself, I've had to do it.
- [54:15]
Paul Mobley
Right?
- [54:15]
Ian Spanier
Yeah.
- [54:16]
Jill Waterman
Is that on the day on set, or do you do that beforehand also?
- [54:21]
Paul Mobley
Like, for me, it's usually the day of it.
- [54:25]
Ian Spanier
Yeah, I would say 99.99% of the time, it's at the shoot quite often, because you can prep all you want here in your home or studio, and. And then you get to location and everything is different. The ceilings aren't the height. There's, you know, pipes hanging down. There's something in the way. I think also at this point, and I'm sure Paul would agree, we already know in our head what this modifier does, what this light looks like from this position or that position, what the situation's gonna look like. So the anticipation of how I'm gonna light this beforehand is already in our brains wired in, and that goes towards that 10,000 hours, plus some exercising, that part of your brain that can see it before you even pick up the camera. And the reason I stress this so much is that you being able to see the picture before it happens allows you to get in those situations where when you do have two minutes with the subject. You can do three setups because you can walk in the room and say, okay, I got this spot right here. I've got this spot, and then there's a window over there. So I'm going to shoot all three of those, and we're going to cut each one in 45 seconds, and that's how we're going to do this. And case in point, it works. I literally just did this two weeks ago.
- [55:36]
Derek Fazbender
I love it. There's so much confidence. And I think it does go all back to what you guys were saying earlier with just knowing, you know, you know, that you're going in there, you have a plan. It's solving challenges as you come up with them. I mean, it's. That's why you guys are both great photographers, is because you. You go in there and you're going to get what you're going to get, right? You know that you're going to get it. It's not going to be an accident. Sometimes you. You do get that happy accident that we talked about that ends up being your favorite photo of your career, but you're out there doing it. You know, we talked about doing it over and over, and experience and repetition. Now I want to touch upon personal projects because I think they kind of put us in a different place as photographers. Can you guys talk about your own personal projects? Of course. You both have done projects on firefighters. Probably a good place to start is what personal projects lend to you as a photographer in general, but also to your commercial work.
- [56:37]
Paul Mobley
I kind of treat both of them kind of the same in the sense that when I'm doing my personal work, I feel a freeness that I can do what I want, really and truly, and not one person's going to have anything to say or an opinion. But I still shoot the same way. My eyes trained to do what it does and what I see and what I feel. So for me, the books and some of the other personal stuff that I've done is still maybe a unvarnished version of my commercial work. It's just a little less controlled from others, I guess would be a good way to put it.
- [57:22]
Ian Spanier
For me, I believe that personal work is the vehicle for testing, and it allows me to come up with new and different lighting situations to challenge myself to do things unconventionally, because you just never know. And again, this goes back to having those tricks in the bag that I like to have. So when I did a project on interesting people that live all around us, that you have no idea what Their stories was I used that to teach myself video. But also I approached it from a very non technical standpoint. And I only used, you know, one, two strobes at most. And I would not use modifiers. I would bang the strobes into a wall at each of these different locations. Every location was different. And challenged myself to not be technical about it because I found myself getting too technical on photo shoots. And so I wanted to free myself up a little bit. And then in terms of my latest project, I'm shooting that with a fixed lens Leica. And I'm doing it for the sole reason of forcing myself to see portraits differently. So that I don't ever feel stuck to a 24 to 105 on a Canon and don't ever feel stuck to an 85 millimeter. And put myself in a position where if all I have with me is one camera with one lens, I can come up with a way to make a portrait the way that I see it. And these things are what, truthfully, being a commercial photographer, and that's my agenda, this is what the art buyers and the photo editors and people who hire actually want to see. They don't want to see the commercial work as much. The commercial work they know is specific to what it is. Whereas the personal work really shows how you see the world and how you envision things. And as a result, you're giving them a piece of who you are as a person. And that helps that decision of do they want to spend the day or the week or the month on set with you?
- [59:20]
Derek Fazbender
Some great insight there. Do you guys use that to test or is it more of just freeing yourself like you've said? It's still, you know, I like what you said, Paul. It's still the same approach. You're not approaching it differently. You just feel more free. Are you more experimental? Are you more creative when you're creating? Personally, yeah.
- [59:37]
Paul Mobley
You know, for me, I've been doing a lot of stuff now where I've gone back to film, where I don't want to look at the monitor, I don't want to see the work. I want to try to strengthen my eye. And, you know, to me, shooting film is a reminder to pay attention and to really look through the viewfinder and see what's in front of you and be a little more concise and a little more careful not knowing you're going to get an instant result. You're going to have to wait and see. So that's what I do quite a bit nowadays. If I have no client. And it's just something that I want to do. I will shoot film. And just the whole anticipation of the film being developed and, oh, I got to wait a day or two to see my proofs or contact sheets. It kind of keeps me excited about photography.
- [60:26]
Derek Fazbender
I love that.
- [60:27]
Ian Spanier
I see it as a way to keep moving. I keep going back to this whole idea of exercising the muscle. And, you know, it works very much like that to me. If you're not shooting, you're not thinking about shooting. And it's for me, having the ability to always have something going on fills in that time in between assignments. And, you know, particularly on a tough year like this was where there was essentially no productions in California. So it was like the entertainment industry was very different out here this year. And yes, I have clients in other arenas and I, again, going back to the thing that we talk about, about being a photographer, shoots different things, but the reality is that I always want to be exercising that muscle. If you train in any sport, it's the same thing. If you just pick up your golf club and go out to play golf, you're not going to shoot a good score. But if you practice, practice, practice, practice, then you're going to have it as that muscle memory. So personal projects also fulfill. Fulfill that for me in the sake that I am using that piece of my brain and trying things and pushing levels and doing this and doing that so that I have that instinct when I'm in that situation where I need to deliver in 30 seconds or two minutes.
- [61:43]
Derek Fazbender
Now, as we wind this conversation down, we started in talking about New York and how competitive New York is as a market. Let's bring it back to 2025. And obviously the industry has changed drastically since you guys both began. And competition is tenfold of what it used to be with just everything that's gone on. What is it right now as far as the commercial marketplace? How competitive is it really? Does having a name and a body of work behind you set you on a different tier, or do you guys have to get out there and grind like anyone else?
- [62:23]
Paul Mobley
I think we have to grind. But having a body of work certainly helps. Maybe the grind isn't as hard. Would I be doing the work I'm doing without the portfolio I have and experience? Absolutely not. So it helps. But another great mentor of mine said, especially when it was shooting celebrities, the more you get, the more you get. And it's served me well. I got a job a couple of months ago that had nothing to do with music. An ad agency in Chicago hired me to do this really nice job and I didn't think for a minute I would get it. And at the end of the shoot, I asked the creative director, I said, I'm curious why you hired me. And he said, well, honestly, everybody that we looked at did great work, but I saw a picture you did of Roger Daltrey and I've always been a big who fan and that's why I hired you. And I thought, 30 years of breaking my back and that's why he hired me. So it was a happy accident.
- [63:29]
Ian Spanier
I definitely believe that you're as good as your last job. That is unfortunate truth, but I think staying relevant is super important and the grind is never over. As I mentioned earlier about being somebody that always is hustling for work and I can't stop and I won't stop. And so the way I see it is I've not made it where I could be. And I always believe I have another destination point ahead of me. So good or bad, I'm often not satisfied with whatever I've done to this point. And sure, it's nice when people recognize you and hire you for the job because they've seen X celebrity or this person in your book or whatever, but the reality is that for me, I just want to work, work, work, work, work. And I don't care so much about the idea that I'm going to rest on some laurels because I have somebody in my portfolio now.
- [64:24]
Derek Fazbender
Do you guys see? Are you getting asked more with this hybrid approach now where a lot of still photographers are having to get into video because the job is going to the person who can do both versus do one really well and hire in another person to do the video? Have you guys seen these types of jobs come across your desks where they want somebody who can do multiple types of media or create something for social media or has that not really affected you guys?
- [64:51]
Ian Spanier
It definitely affects me. I think every portfolio meeting I've had somebody ask me that question. Part of the bonus from COVID was that I started working more with some of the brands that I use for jobs, lighting and software and things like that, and have had to create content for them. So I've gotten pretty good at, I would say, putting videos together and reels together and understanding that animal. So it's within my wheelhouse in a comfortable space at this point. But I don't know about you, Paul, but I'm a bit of a purist. I'm a photographer, I'm not a videographer. I Can direct cinematography, I can direct lighting. I can do all those things. But if the budget is there for me to bring in a cinematographer, that's my preference. Yes, I know how technically to shoot those cameras and shoot video and even use my iPhone if needed, but I'd prefer not to. That said, I did do a job this year where I had to do both stills and video and each at different locations, basically no crew. And do sound and have to understand how to do sound as well. And I hate it. It's a big distraction to me from being a photographer.
- [66:05]
Paul Mobley
Yeah, it's pretty much the same for me. I get asked to do it, but most of the time again, when they're serious about hiring me, it's not their first priority. So if we need to do it, we'll do it. But I think they know when they hire me what they're going to get. But I would agree it's out there for sure.
- [66:27]
Derek Fazbender
Now I'm going to. I got to get it in here. Generative AI. Now, Ian, I know you are an ambassador for a company that uses AI for processing, but let's widen the conversation here because I think a lot of the conversation isn't really in AI calling and AI editing. I think we all use that in some way, shape or form. No matter what editing software you're using, you kind of have no choice. As far as generative AI and that wider conversation that you have, the gloom and doom of people thinking it's going to end creativity as a whole and it's all going to be robots creating art. What are you guys thoughts on how the creative economy is now in terms of using generative AI?
- [67:13]
Ian Spanier
I honestly don't like it. I just don't think it's good yet. It will be, but in terms of quality, I still don't like it. I don't think it satisfies what I know I can do as somebody that retouches its own work. That said, it's obviously coming and it's obviously something that we will have to face. Do I think it's going to replace us? No. And I've said this time and time again to photographers that one of the interesting byproducts of coming from where I came from as a photo editor and also again being friends with Harry Benson, I watched him recreate his career three times in a span of 20 years. And the reality is that if you adapt to the changes in the environment, you will survive. And so if you understand the technology, if that's what it takes, or if you utilize it in a way that works for your workflow in your system or you bring on crew that helps with that part. If that's not something you can do, then you will find a way to survive. Survive as a photographer. You won't be replaced by a machine. And it's the people that bitch and moan about it and complain about the idea that all these things are going to take over, they're going to replace us completely. What's the point?
- [68:36]
Paul Mobley
Good.
- [68:37]
Ian Spanier
Have that attitude because you're gone. And that's fine by me because that's one less person I got to compete with.
- [68:42]
Paul Mobley
I agree with that and I also relate it similar to when we were all shooting film and digital came out and a lot of photographers, including myself, were really resistant to switching over. And it was the same thing, you either adapt or you're done. And it was really at that time because of the speed. You know, a lot of people ask me nowadays, do you shoot a lot of film? Well, I don't think clients have a problem with me shooting film. It's the turnaround and all of the steps in between. So I kind of look at it pretty much just like when digital cameras came out that you either work with it and try to make it work for you or go work in a restaurant.
- [69:29]
Derek Fazbender
I love that it's such a based take. I never thought of it like that, but it is. And I've actually heard people use that analogy before. And I'm like, yeah, it does, it tracks. It's the exact same thing as everyone thinking that digital was never going to hold water.
- [69:44]
Paul Mobley
You know, if we go back to what we started, talking about is these pictures are made with our hearts and our minds. AI can never replace that. And if people want to hire us, they really want to know what's inside of us. So for that reason alone, I'm not worried.
- [69:59]
Derek Fazbender
Paul just ended it on a mic drop there, so we're going to run with that. Paul, what do you have either working on any upcoming projects? Anything you're excited about?
- [70:09]
Paul Mobley
You know, I got my regular commercial work that I'm doing. I have a new book coming out called American Warrior where we've been traveling the country photographing military families and guys that have come back from the war and old timers and young families. And it's about halfway finished and my new exhibition, my centenarian pictures are going out the end of next year for a five year exhibition. So I'm busy trying to get that all finished up and ready, but all good, very happy and just taking it day by day.
- [70:43]
Derek Fazbender
Awesome. And where can we learn more about this or keep up or social media. You a social media guy, Paul?
- [70:48]
Paul Mobley
Oh, big time. Paul Mobley Studio is my Instagram and website and my exhibition. As if I liveto be 100. Com.
- [70:58]
Derek Fazbender
Yeah, I love that. Ian, what about you? What do you have in the works and where can we find more of your work?
- [71:03]
Ian Spanier
Sure thing. So yeah, same deal, just pushing and continuing on the commercial side. I am in talks to do another book for a single client with the same crew that I did the cigar book for. And so we are just starting those conversations now, but I might be starting as early as February and it looks like It'll be a 12 to 14 month project which will be pretty cool. So I'm looking forward to that. And then yep, my work is always out there at Ian Spanier on Instagram, I've been very big on LinkedIn lately. I've really been finding it to be a good venue since lots of people are out of work and everybody's on there. So I've been posting there quite a bit and I do share as you know, very much of my behind the scenes and thought process behind photography and you know, just little tips and tricks of things that that happen in my world. And and I will be also appearing at Imaging USA in January, the Monday and Tuesday of that event. So I'll be doing a speaking engagement on how to use light meter, my favorite topic. And then I'll also be doing appearances with Westcott and Tether Tools and Evoto and a couple of others down there.
- [72:15]
Paul Mobley
Awesome.
- [72:16]
Derek Fazbender
A lot of exciting stuff coming up for both of you. I want to send a huge thank you to you both. Wonderful conversation. A lot of you guys were a lot more aligned than I thought going in this, which makes perfect sense, but I'd love to see it. We found out you guys are distant relatives, but a huge thank you to you both for joining us today.
- [72:34]
Ian Spanier
Thank you.
- [72:35]
Paul Mobley
Glad to be here. Thank you. Great meeting all of you and yeah, great meeting you too, Ian.
- [72:39]
Ian Spanier
You too. Thanks so much. And I'm glad to know I have a brother on the west coast.
- [72:43]
Paul Mobley
You got it. Wonderful.
- [72:45]
Derek Fazbender
And to all of our listeners out there, we of course appreciate you and thank you for joining us us today. If you are a fan of the show but are not yet a subscriber, head on over to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, BH's YouTube channel or wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. You can also find us on the Explora blog where we post photos from our guests along with our show notes. I'm your host, Derek Fosbender. Jill Waterman is our creative producer. Episodes are recorded, mixed and edited by technical producer Mike Weinstein and our executive producer. Our producer is Richard Stephens. On behalf of us all, thank you so much for tuning in today.
- [73:26]
Sponsor Announcer
Thanks to OM System for sponsoring this week's episode.