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- [00:02]
Alan Weitz
You're listening to the B and H photography podcast. For 50 years, B& H has been the professional source for photography, video, audio and more. For your favorite gear, news and reviews, Visit us@bh.com or download the BH app to your iPhone or Android device. Now here's your host, Derek Fassbender.
- [00:22]
Derek Fassbender
Welcome listeners. I'm Derek Fassbender, host of the B and H Photography Podcast. You know, one of our top listener topics has always been music photography. Through the years, we've heard countless stories from legendary photographers and learned what it takes to document all aspects of the music scene. As we take a pause on new recording to build out our video podcast studio, we decided to take a trip down memory lane with some clips from our 10 year archive. So here's a compilation of some of our favorite moments. Talking music Photography From Mick Rock to Christy Goodwin, Graham Nash to Jeanette Beckman to everyone else we've had the pleasure of speaking with. We kick things off with Lynn Goldsmith, who shares a brilliant tip about getting any subject from a rock star to a hard headed news journalist into the right headspace for a photo shoot. In this 2017 chat with John Harris and Alan Weitz.
- [01:14]
John Harris
Do you always listen to the music of the people you're going to shoot?
- [01:17]
Lynn Goldsmith
Yes, Prior, obviously I think that with all shoots, whether you're doing a story for National Geographic or whether you're doing a rock and roll shoot or whether you're photographing an author or like I mentioned before, in terms of finding out the music that someone likes, I'm going to photograph Cokie Roberts. I look up what, I look at what was on the charts when she was 14 and it was Leslie Gore's It's My Party. Immediately when I saw Leslie Gore It's My Party, I knew that was a song she would like. And she walked in in a really bad mood and I had that music on and she just started dancing all over the place and stayed and I had her eating out of my hand. That's brilliant. The point is you do as much research, you do your homework as you possibly can and that will hopefully lead to the best image that you're capable of making.
- [02:16]
John Harris
Have you had a moment where or an instant where. I mean, I'm taking from this in other conversations that in order to make a good photo, you need the connection, you need the relationship somewhere, whether it's through a shared music or a shared memory or something along the lines. But has there been an instance where you got a really good photo out of a relationship? That was just horrible, where there was no connection and you never found that little moment or that shared ability between the subject in yourself.
- [02:46]
Lynn Goldsmith
I don't really come from that mindset, you know, I don't really see especially, you know, I come from the mindset of being in other people's shoes. So I don't, I'm not there. You know, I do tell a story and I don't hesitate to say. When people ask me, like, what was the worst photo session you ever had? I, I would say, you know, Don McLean. And when I said to him, you know, this is your record and people are buying your record, you need to care about what's on your cover. And that's why I'm here. If you're not here for this, you should leave. And he completely turned around and became fine, you know, so the point is that sometimes you have to remind people, for whatever reason, not necessarily because they're a big star or whatever, it could be because they had a really bad day before they walked into where you are and what things that have nothing to do with you, but you need to get that individual in the moment with you. You can have someone who's totally against you. It's your job to turn that around. And if you don't have the abilities to do that, you shouldn't be there.
- [04:23]
Narrator/Producer
While working through a tough shoe is a must to get great results, sometimes mindful preparation is the ultimate key to success. As the legendary Mick Rock shared with Alan, John and Jason during a remote recording session at his Staten island studio in March 2019.
- [04:39]
Mick Rock
I've been doing yoga for over 40 years. Okay, headstands for over 40 years. To me, it's completely linked with photography. It was a way of, you know, massaging the third eye so that I could see more clearly.
- [04:57]
Jason Tables
I like what you term it as emptying yourself. And I get that. It's like you just then you open your eyes and there you are with your subject.
- [05:03]
Mick Rock
Yeah. You're in the present.
- [05:05]
Jason Tables
Yep. What are some of your warm up techniques that you use for people? Does that really depend on who you're photographing?
- [05:11]
Mick Rock
No, I. Well, I do power breathing. I would have already done a yoga workout and a meditation. And mostly nowadays I'll get a massage beforehand too. So when I show up, I'm primed
- [05:27]
John Harris
just like you before the show. Alan. So. But I think maybe following up on his question, what about what direction do you give to some of the people that are sitting for you?
- [05:36]
Jason Tables
That's actually what I was getting at. Not necessarily your Warmup, but like to sit down. You just don't start taking pictures. I mean, what kind of games do you play or interchanges?
- [05:44]
Mick Rock
I don't really play games. I think it's about stirring the energy. You just start the process and it just evolves. I'm not, you know, I'm not uptight about these things.
- [05:57]
Narrator/Producer
John got Mick talking about his 1980 photo session with a young dancer who only later would shoot to stardom as Madonna.
- [06:05]
John Harris
About that photo of Madonna where she's going like this to her shoulder.
- [06:08]
Mick Rock
Yeah. I've got to find. There are more of them that are probably worth a bundle. And they would take them while she was still a dancer, 1980.
- [06:18]
John Harris
Do you remember the setting? The. The.
- [06:20]
Mick Rock
Yeah, it was my studio.
- [06:21]
John Harris
Oh, okay.
- [06:22]
Mick Rock
Bleeca Bob used to bring. Used to bring people that would go
- [06:26]
John Harris
from the record store. Bleecker Bob, that. Yeah, okay.
- [06:29]
Mick Rock
I think he died, didn't he?
- [06:30]
John Harris
I don't know.
- [06:30]
Sheena Lester
Wow.
- [06:32]
Chris Ortiz
She had a totally different look in that picture.
- [06:34]
Mick Rock
Yeah, but she was totally ungroomed. I think that's what people like about. But I gotta find the other. The other few frames because, I mean, I know how well that shot does.
- [06:47]
John Harris
So when you say you gotta find them, are they here somewhere?
- [06:49]
Mick Rock
Are they in a. I think it's in the. One of my storage spaces.
- [06:53]
John Harris
One of your storage spaces. Okay.
- [06:54]
Mick Rock
Yeah. So it's some work to find them.
- [06:55]
John Harris
You gotta get someone on there.
- [06:56]
Mick Rock
No, I've got to get all kinds of stuff.
- [06:59]
John Harris
Okay.
- [07:00]
Narrator/Producer
I'm pretty sure we can all relate to having some hidden gems lost somewhere in our archives. Although I don't know how many of us are sitting on an undeveloped gold mine of film like Charles Daniels. Back in 2022, Alan got a taste of the candid eye of toon icon Charlie, the unassuming ambassador of 1960s British Invasion rockers. From his role as MC of the legendary club the Boston Tea Party to touring with legends like the Faces and the Stones, Charles had a front row seat to rock and roll history. The only problem was until very recently, he rarely developed the film.
- [07:36]
Jason Tables
One of the things that's interesting about your photographs, looking at the ones that we were able to see so far, is that aside from the fact that you have some really good shots taken during performances of all of these groups, you know, almost in your face pictures, a lot of them. What you do have that many and most other musical photographers don't have is an extremely at ease position with each of these performers backstage and not when they're performing that you don't usually see. Even if a lot of the higher profile photographers, and we've had some good musical photographers on the show in the past. Even the stuff they have that's backstage and stuff, there's a certain amount of posturing and posing going on because these people are performers. But in, in an awful lot of the photographs that I've seen of you so far, they're not even aware of you. You really are wallpaper there. And they're just being themselves. And you're catching these people in a way that we're normally not seeing them.
- [08:41]
Charles Daniels
Well, that, to me, that was what was starting to happen. Like everyone knew what the bands looked like when they were playing on stage and stuff. And I actually had the opportunity during the day to hang out with some of these bands. And we would sort of cruise around the city, get out on the streets and kind of walk around, see what was happening in Boston as opposed to where they were coming from. And so it became really kind of continuous that when the bands came to town that we would sort of hang out and walk around and give them a little bit more information about sort of what was happening outside of just what was happening on stage with them.
- [09:23]
Jason Tables
Out of all the musicians that you have photographed, who is the most enjoyable to photograph? Who interplayed with you the most and gave you the best photographs?
- [09:33]
Charles Daniels
Are you talking international or local?
- [09:36]
Jason Tables
Anybody?
- [09:37]
Charles Daniels
Probably, you know, obviously with Peter. Peter during the old days. I mean, he was in a couple different bands before he became the Wolf or Gopher and I became the Master Blaster. But. But a lot of the bands that were starting to come over from England, you know, bands like Humble Pie, Bad Company, Alvin Lee from ten years after. He was like one of my good friends and we actually hung out together a lot. And he was probably the first person that I actually spent a lot of time with. We would always get out on the streets, I'd go over to the hotel, pick him up and we would just cruise Cambridge or cruise around Back Bay, around Newberry street and go and hang out in the Commons. And that was even during the early days of bcn. And I can remember one time Alvin was playing the Tea Party. Alvin was also someone who shot photographs. So we would sort of. We were almost like co photographer mates. And one time he was sitting in the public gardens playing his trademark red guitar. And we were supposed to go up to BCN to do like an interview. And so we were. We started walking from the public gardens and he was plugged in. And so for some reason he Started walking along playing his, playing his guitar. And he had like a little amplifier called a pig nose. And I was holding the amplifier and we were walking up Newbury street towards the Prudential and people were just like totally freaking out. Oh, wow, that's Alvin Lee from ten years after when the massive Blasters. And we just walked to the Prudential and he never stopped playing the guitar. And we ended up going up to the right floor that BCM was on at the time and just walked into the studio and he never stopped playing. And then the DJ said, wow. And Alvin Lee just walked in playing his guitar along with the Master Blasters. So things were totally different in those days. A lot of the bands who came to play at the Tea Party, they loved the idea of being able to get out on the streets and hang out and to check out the scene here. This was the first time that they were coming into the States. So it was really interesting to see what was happening before they would play that evening at the Tea Party.
- [12:02]
Jason Tables
And you were their ambassador. You introduced him to America. That's pretty cool.
- [12:06]
Narrator/Producer
Digging deeper into famous photo collections, John and Allen rekindled the spirit of maverick rock and roll photographer Jim Marshall in a March 2020 chat with his long enduring assistant, Amelia Davis. Named by Marshall as sole heir to his estate upon his passing in 2010, Amelia has kept Jim's vision alive through ongoing book releases and print exhibitions, including a new book due out this June featuring his 1966 documentation of the Beatles last live public concert. Now here's Amelia.
- [12:38]
Amelia Davis
Stable relationship with anybody, because photography was his love and it was his love 24 7.
- [12:44]
John Harris
But was it a joyous thing or was it like an obsessive love?
- [12:47]
Amelia Davis
No, no, he loved it. And he, you know, it was a way of expressing himself. Like a, you know, a writer has a pen and a notebook and a musician has their instrument. Well, Jim had his camera and that's really how he communicated with the world, openly and honestly, I think. And that's why he loved it, because it was a vehicle to speak to people and show them a part of him that they may not know. And he just always had that camera. I mean, he would walk out the door, even though I worked for him. Later in life, when he was in his 60s, out of habit, he would just pick up his Leica off of his. Off the table and just go outside with it because he was always curious and always looking and he never wanted to miss anything. And I think that's why he, he really was everywhere that mattered because he Always had his cameras and he was always looking. He had such a curious eye.
- [13:44]
John Harris
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that comes across. And also the documentary does a good point of talking about his other work, you know, outside of the music world.
- [13:52]
Amelia Davis
Yeah.
- [13:52]
John Harris
Let me ask a little bit about, you know, running this archive or getting the archive. I mean, was it when the news came down that he had left this to you, were you aware that he was going to do that? Were you happy? Were you willing? Were you?
- [14:07]
Jason Tables
I mean, it's a challenge of undertaking, but you know what? It's the kind of thing you can't just say, oh, no, thank you. Thanks, but no thanks. You own this. You do, whether you like it or not.
- [14:18]
Alan Weitz
Right.
- [14:18]
Amelia Davis
Well, you know, Jim never had any children, and he always considered his photographs his children, which he guarded fiercely when he was alive. And he took care of them when he was younger. And he said as he got older, then they took care of him. So he and I had a couple discussions, and he said, you know, you are the only person I trust to care for my children when I'm gone, so I am going to leave you to care for my children. So when he died in 2010, I inherited his over million children. And it's a massive. I mean, it's a massive archive. Jim worked steadily for 50 years. So he has over a million images just in black and white, 35 millimeter alone. That doesn't include the color or the two and a quarter. So. So it's massive. And for me, I made a promise to my friend that I would care for his children, and that's what I'm doing. And it's a little easier now that Jim is gone because he was always a roadblock, and he always would sabotage things. So he would get in a rut and just show the same old photos over and over. A lot of his rock and roll, and he was so much more than that. And that's what I'm really trying to share with the world is, you know, yes, he's known for his music photography, but there's a lot of other photography out there that's really important and really important today. We're facing a lot of the same issues 50 years later. You know, the peace symbol is huge and pro to peaceful protesting. And these are things that we're encountering now. So his photography is timeless.
- [15:55]
Derek Fassbender
Speaking of timeless photographs, perhaps the most iconic image of musicians ever made is Art Kane's assembled park portrait of jazz grates posed in front of a Harlem brownstone. In addition to being the defining image of Kane's illustrious photo career. The picture has spawned memorable offshoots in the 67 years since its creation. We documented the full story of the effect this photograph had on not just one, but two musical genres, jazz and hip hop, in two separate shows. We're starting off here by a chat with Arkane's son Jonathan, who offered up the backstory to how this pivotal moment in jazz history came to be.
- [16:29]
John Harris
But that photo was always around the Harlem 1958. It was a part of your life, right?
- [16:36]
Jonathan Kane
I mean, very much so. Very much so, yeah.
- [16:39]
John Harris
And did your father keep it out as a point of pride? Was it something that he referred to as one of his greatest photos or one of his biggest moments or.
- [16:50]
Jonathan Kane
I think for him, it was a really foundational moment in his career that he was extremely proud of. But Art Kane didn't do a lot of looking back. He was always about his next shoot and what he was gonna do next and how he was going to change things and evolve his own approach and photography in general. But yeah, to answer your question, my dad was proud of the picture and considered it a real turning point in his career because that was the moment. So there is this creation Myth that Harlem 1958 is Art Kane's first photograph, that he was an amateur photographer. And that's the story that Art Kane himself allowed to flourish. But the reality is that Art Kane actually had been shooting. He was not a professional photographer.
- [17:47]
Jason Tables
He was an art director. Is that correct? Magazine art director.
- [17:50]
Jonathan Kane
That's exactly correct. He was actually a very highly celebrated art director, but he was becoming restless and had a lot to say as a photographer, but hadn't yet launched his career.
- [18:02]
John Harris
Can you walk us through a little bit what you know of anyway of like the concept and, you know, his idea was it, you know, all his idea. Was there any kind of struggle to get it published or, you know, to get the go ahead for the production and some of the organizational aspects of it?
- [18:19]
Jonathan Kane
Sure, absolutely. Well, so here's the scenario is it's 1958 and Art Kane is a celebrated art director who's dipping his feet into the waters of photography with placing some images here and there, like the Errol Garner album cover. But he really wants to make a change in his life now being and move into photography full time. Now being a high level art director on the scene, he's got the word about what's going on in the industry and he found out, I'm not exactly sure where, but he found out that Esquire magazine was planning a big issue on jazz. And it was going to be a big kind of blowout celebration issue for their January 1950 night issue. So I think Art Kane decided if I could pitch something and get the gig and do something really outrageous, maybe I could get this gig, and maybe that could be, like, a great way to launch my career as a photographer. So he cooked up this idea. It was his idea 100%, to put an open call and do a jazz group portrait, sort of a class photo, as it were, of as many generations of jazz representing different eras and different styles and developments in the form. And he wanted to do it live and on location in Harlem. So he took an appointment with Harold Hayes, who was the editor at Esquire at the time, and Robert Benton, who went on to become Hollywood filmmaker. And Benton at the time was the art director at Esquire. So Art Kane took a meeting with them and pitched this concept, and they both went, wow, this is an incredible idea. They were a little nervous. They tried. My understanding is they tried to convince him to do it in a studio where they'd be able to control it. And that Art Kane was like, nope, absolutely not. This has got to happen in horrible Harlem. Harlem is where jazz came in, in New York City, and it's where the most of these artists live and work, and it's got to be in Harlem now.
- [20:39]
Narrator/Producer
Forty years after Kane's class photo of jazz legends, a new generation decided to return to the same Harlem block and stage an even larger and more ambitious gathering of artists to create what is widely regarded as one of the most iconic photos in hip hop history. In this clip, we hear from two of the people responsible for producing the photo. Sheena Lester, editor in chief of XXL magazine, and writer Michael Gonzalez, whose idea was to commission Gordon Parks to make the image. After learning what it took to get Parks to accept the assignment, culture journalist Vicki Toback weighs in on the relevance of gathering a crowd in the days before social media.
- [21:18]
John Harris
You know, recently Sheena wrote an essay about that day that I read. And, you know, when she talks about
- [21:24]
Narrator/Producer
how, you know, because Gordon turned him
- [21:26]
John Harris
down twice, and then Sheena put the golden voice on him and then he changed his mind. Were there other photographers considered or plan Bs or how'd that work? Not that I know of. I mean, you know, I mean, I guess any, you know, because there were
- [21:41]
Narrator/Producer
a lot of quote unquote, hip hop
- [21:42]
John Harris
photographers at the time, you know, the Source, Vibe, and now xxl, you know, so there were all these photographers that
- [21:50]
Narrator/Producer
could have been called on, you Know,
- [21:51]
John Harris
I mean, my favorite photographer from that period was Daniel Hastings, but there were any number of guys that could have done it. But, you know, I knew if Gordon was involved, that would become, you know,
- [22:05]
Jason Tables
like, that adds a whole level of gravity to it.
- [22:09]
John Harris
Seriously, having him on board made a difference. And maybe this is for Sheena in getting folks to attend who might otherwise not have attended. I mean, was he that much of a. A cultural touchstone?
- [22:21]
Sheena Lester
Well, the essay that Michael referenced is titled the Game Changer. So, yeah, he literally thinks game. I mean, we had a list of photographers who we were considering to shoot. You know, at that point, we're just, you know, remaking this cover and, you know, inviting as many rappers as we could to that address and getting someone to shoot it. We had considered, folks, Danny Hastings was certainly on that list because he's amazing, as were what, Jonathan Manion, my beloved Brian Cross, who shot some great covers for me at Rat Pages and some other folk. But once Gordon Park's name got into
- [23:02]
Jason Tables
the mix, that is a whole layer of gravity to it. It really does.
- [23:05]
John Harris
And what was it that changed his mind?
- [23:08]
Sheena Lester
Well, ultimately, I told him, you know, I put the spiel on and, you know, that we were, you know, honoring this generation of jazz musicians, you know, these geniuses, these legends who had inspired hip hop in so many ways. It's like we were returning to sort of consecrated ground, you know, with sort of their artistic offspring. I put all these arguments in his ear, and he was like, yeah, nah. And then I just pulled up, I told him, Basically, you know, Mr. Parks, we could get anybody to take the picture, but, you know, the only person who should take it is you.
- [23:49]
John Harris
How active was he at that point? I mean, he was 86, more or less, I think at that point. Was he still shooting regularly?
- [23:57]
Sheena Lester
I think he was. I mean, I know that when Leslie called me to tell me that, he said no. She said that his. You know, that he basically could pick and choose what he wanted to shoot. I guess he just didn't want to shoot a bunch of rappers. You know, I could get that. But I think that. I don't know. I think that maybe once he understood that. That we knew what we were asking for, you know, we knew we were getting Gordon Parks, you know, that it wasn't right to us. He wasn't just some photographer. I think that maybe. I don't know, maybe once he understood that, we really understood the importance of having him shoot it, you know, we wanted from him what he was, which was his genius.
- [24:39]
Jason Tables
Do you think the Fact that Art Kane photographed a great day in Harlem previously, and that had a huge impact on a lot of people, photographers and the culture and everything else. If that photograph didn't exist, do you think Mr. Parks would have partaken? Or do you think that the weight of the previous photograph taken 40 years earlier added something to his decision? Because, again, to me, that would be a big factor.
- [25:06]
Sheena Lester
I think it did. I think, again, we made it clear to him that we knew what we were doing by going back to that address, you know, 17126. So I think he really. I think he knew that we got what we were doing in a real way. So I think that. I think he understood that we got the magnitude of that photo and what it meant. And we also made it clear that what we were creating was also an homage to Mr. Cain. You know, we wanted to continue that sort of legacy of, you know, capturing what fulfilled promise looks like. Basically, that's what he had done. That's what we wanted to do, too.
- [25:44]
Chris Ortiz
That's great.
- [25:44]
John Harris
And did you know if Gordon Parks, you know, had an affinity for hip hop?
- [25:50]
Sheena Lester
Well, he hadn't guessed it on anybody's rhymes or anything.
- [25:58]
John Harris
Been in some rhymes, right?
- [26:00]
Amelia Davis
Yeah.
- [26:00]
Sheena Lester
I don't know. I don't know that he probably had an affinity for hip hop, but again, I think that he got that we got how important he was.
- [26:09]
John Harris
Sure.
- [26:09]
Jason Tables
Right.
- [26:10]
Sheena Lester
The rest of it was just gravy.
- [26:12]
John Harris
And can you speak a bit about the production aspect of it, like who you called first, who were the top of the list, people you wanted involved, and how it was to get these people who signed on right away to come for the shoot and who took some. Some wrangling.
- [26:27]
Sheena Lester
We had a list of, you know, the originators, you know, cool Herc, you know, I mean, all the folks from Sedgwick Avenue, you know, the old school artists. We just had a long list of anybody who had ever made a rap record or contributed to hip hop music in a way that was significant.
- [26:51]
John Harris
So the door was kind of open. I mean, in the sense that if somebody said, hey, I, you know, I want, I want so and so should be here, too. Do you then invite them as well?
- [26:59]
Sheena Lester
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And again, we. The fact that Gordon Parks was taking the picture gave it a particular significance.
- [27:07]
Jason Tables
Now, did you have Mr. Parks on board before you start sending out the invites? Because obviously, I think that would add a lot of weight to why one would want to be in the photograph. Or did Parks come on during the process?
- [27:23]
Sheena Lester
No, he came on before we sent out the first invitation.
- [27:27]
Jason Tables
Ah, okay.
- [27:28]
Sheena Lester
Considering. Yeah, we were, you know, again, we were still considering photos when. Or photographers rather, when it was suggested that he shoot it. And then we were fortunate enough to get him on board. And then once Leslie and Biff Warren got the word out, you know, with Gordon Parks attached, it was just a matter of who was around, who had made unbreakable plans. You know, it's different when you're talking about just shooting a photo, but when you're talking about Gordon Parks taking it, it's like, oh, well, all right, well, hold on. So, you know, there were folks who couldn't make it because of KRS1 was relocating. I remember that. And I think some folks were shooting movies that they couldn't get out of and things like that. But, you know, anyone who could get there got there. Sure. Because Gordon Parks was taking it.
- [28:17]
Michael Gonzalez
To me, this aspect of putting out the word and getting people there is such a fascinating part of the whole thing. Because you have to remember this was pre social media. This was really Leslie activating this amazing network of publicists and people. And I feel like it set off this great underground, like sleeper cell of hip hop. And we're word just got around, you
- [28:45]
Jason Tables
know, That's a good point. There was no social media. Yeah. This is a whole different world.
- [28:49]
Michael Gonzalez
And in some ways, if there was such social media, I wonder if that photo would have even happened. Because imagine today the call goes out. You know, everyone in hip hop is gonna be at 17 east 126 at such and such time with Gordon Parks photographing. You'd have more imagine the fans too, and the radio, the fans there than. I mean, I think the shoot would have been a disaster and you know, the noi would have definitely put them in their place. But that aspect of it, I just wanted to jump in because that is so fascinating to me that it all just. The stars all align.
- [29:25]
Narrator/Producer
I hope you're enjoying this trip back in time as much as we are. We're gonna take a short break and dive back in for more from those who documented the legends of music when we return.
- [29:35]
Derek Fassbender
We hope you're enjoying this edition of the BH photography podcast. The best way to support the show and get regular updates is by subscribing on your favorite podcast app. And be sure to check out our new social media h podcast network on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok to stay updated on the upcoming BH Podcast network launch. For more on gear and details about today's guest, check out our homepage on the BH Explorer website and follow the links in our show notes. And now back to the show.
- [30:03]
Narrator/Producer
And we are back with our Best of music photography compilation. Now, before the break, we were celebrating the greatest day in hip hop with a backstory about the legendary 1998 photo shoot carried out by none other than Gordon Parks. Let's dive even deeper into hip hop culture and get some insights into business decisions photographers need to consider in a 2017 show. About Vicki Toback's book, Contact High. Joining Vicki in this chat with John Allen and Jason are photographers Jeanette Beckman and Eric Johnson, who shed some light on image licensing, copyright and being fairly compensated for your work.
- [30:41]
John Harris
How did you define hip hop? Was there a. Did you kind of have to say, okay, I'm sorry, this artist doesn't quite make the cut as hip hop, even though we love the photos or their work changed over the years. Did you have issues and discussions on this?
- [30:54]
Michael Gonzalez
I think it was a combination of factors. I mean, for me, it's more of just like a gut instinct. But, yeah, I mean, the criteria is it has to be a good photo. You know, it has to have a reason for being there in the story arc of hip hop. It has to be a photographer who not just took one shot, but really, you know, was dedicated to shooting hip hop. And it has to be something that maybe is, like, etched in the memory of hip hop fans or people who love hip hop. So, yeah, it was like a combination of factors.
- [31:28]
John Harris
One photo on that contact sheet is an iconic shot and the rest are alternate takes from that. That's kind of the idea.
- [31:34]
Michael Gonzalez
Yeah.
- [31:35]
Sheena Lester
Yeah.
- [31:35]
Michael Gonzalez
And it's a way, you know, kind of see into the mind of the photographer, like, see how they think about sequencing and, you know, working with the artist. Like, I always ask, like, did the artist have any idea of how they wanted to be portrayed and what was that like? And it's just a way of, like, into their mind. And I think that's such a fascinating part of it that really gets lost sometimes.
- [32:01]
Chris Ortiz
I thought it was cool how you
- [32:02]
Alan Weitz
could kind of see some of the vulnerability that you may not have seen
- [32:06]
Jason Tables
or some of the humor. The shot of Biggie comes to mind with the crown.
- [32:09]
Alan Weitz
It's like they had the outtakes with
- [32:11]
Chris Ortiz
him smiling and kind of making funny faces. I thought that was kind of a
- [32:15]
Alan Weitz
cool moment that you weren't used to
- [32:16]
John Harris
seeing him portrayed that way.
- [32:18]
Michael Gonzalez
Yeah, well, it also tells the story of, like, how choices are made in media and people who control imagery and how, you know, certain choices that get made then tell this story to the public. But, yeah, you ask people who knew Biggie personally and, you know, they see the smiling photo of him and they're like, that's the Biggie that we knew.
- [32:41]
John Harris
And a lot of these photos were taken for some for album covers, others for magazine shoots, I'm sure. And maybe a variation, but to the photographers. Did. Did you have final choice on a lot of these photos that we're seeing now, or was it a combination of record labels and artists and everything?
- [32:57]
Jeanette Beckman
Not always. I mean, sometimes you do a shoot and you think that's the shot, and then, you know, the art director or the record company would choose something completely different and then. But, you know, being a photographer, you have shows and you can show the other images. It's just so great. You know, now you can put them up on social media and websites and people can share those.
- [33:19]
John Harris
You have copyright for most of the photos that we're talking about.
- [33:22]
Jeanette Beckman
I think. I'm not sure you guys correct me, but I think the law is if you took the photo you own, the
- [33:27]
Jason Tables
copyright belongs to you from the moment you go click.
- [33:30]
Jeanette Beckman
Right. As long as you didn't sign it away. Yeah, as long as you didn't sign it away to the record company.
- [33:35]
Jason Tables
Yeah, right.
- [33:35]
John Harris
How do you guys feel when you see these images, Images out there, whether they're done, you know, with your approval and then a paycheck that may come with it, or as you know, there's
- [33:45]
Jason Tables
a lot of iconic images out there, and then the people who went click are not getting a dime for it. So I imagine you see that here, too.
- [33:52]
Chris Ortiz
You see a lot of people kind
- [33:53]
Alan Weitz
of remixing some of these. You know, Jeanette, I saw you make
- [33:57]
Jason Tables
a face in terms of have your pictures.
- [33:59]
Chris Ortiz
Have you had experience with your.
- [34:01]
Jeanette Beckman
So many of them. And it's not really the record companies are the artists. It's, you know, small companies, T shirt companies. There's an artist right now that's taken one of my Slickwick pictures and has made a whole career out of reproducing it and selling it for $15,000. I mean, you know, he's made a screen print of it and, you know, without permission. And I'm fine to collaborate. I collaborate with a lot of artists. I have this series called the Mash up, which I've done with a lot of graffiti artist friends. And, you know, it's a collaboration between a group of friends. But when someone takes your image and then doesn't own up to it and
- [34:39]
Jason Tables
then buys lunch on and doesn't invite you, that's not good.
- [34:41]
Jeanette Beckman
Exactly. You know, and they go, oh, yeah, we got it off the Internet. Yeah, but that's what I mean to say. Own it.
- [34:48]
Michael Gonzalez
Yeah. And I think it's something that's important to talk about from a generational perspective because I think nowadays it's so second nature to take things off the Internet. It's so disconnected from the artists. A lot of times people will see photos and, you know, there was an. So I run the contact High Instagram, and there was a photographer, Al Pereira, he has this very famous photo of Biggie and Tupac. And I had asked him for the contact sheet of it. Fast forward, I'll skip all the in between, but on that same contact sheet was a photo, the first ever photo of Nas and Tupac. And the Internet went nuts.
- [35:34]
John Harris
Yeah, it was everywhere.
- [35:35]
Michael Gonzalez
It was everywhere. Yeah. And it was, you know, it was a great find. It was like very much in spirit of what this project is, is like looking at archives and finding stuff that, you know, may have been lost. But I bring it up because all the comments were like, I can't wait to make this into a T shirt. Like, there were like 500 comments on that on Nas's feed. People were like, yo, I'm rocking this as a T shirt. And I was like. I kept responding to everyone. I was like, let me just stop. Cause I was like, you know, this is infringement of copyright. I was like, the grandma on there, like, you can't do that. But they weren't doing it in a malicious way. There's this culture of.
- [36:16]
Jason Tables
The precedence has been set already for
- [36:17]
Mick Rock
doing this on many levels to the. They think it belongs to the.
- [36:22]
Michael Gonzalez
The ether world.
- [36:24]
Jason Tables
If it's on my screen, it's mine.
- [36:26]
Mick Rock
Well, yeah, just because. So it's like, I feel like one of those people that. From my generation, it's like an entire business just dealing with people who use my stuff illegally. It's fans, but it's also proper, like website, ABC News, all of these crazy places that just use your photos and they kind of act so casual, the way that they speak to you, as if like, this belongs to everyone. Because I see it over the Internet. So somehow luckily enough for me, even though it's like annoying, we were able to flip it. So that's like a business with just cleaning up the Internet and getting your things back. I would never have expected to. I was creating something that would be so valuable later until the Internet came along and it was like everywhere. So. But one other thing I want to say is that copyright getting Things copywritten, in addition to thinking you own them is very. Is very important, is a very big deal in regards to cleaning that up and being compensated fairly for sure.
- [37:20]
Narrator/Producer
Rules about access can be a moving target these days, which we addressed in a recent show with photographers Chris Ortiz and Bootsy Haller. Chris also shed light on the fine print in contracts often required by certain artists in concert venues before you're allowed to take your first shot. It's become such a big thing now. I mean, the younger generation especially, whereas
- [37:41]
Derek Fassbender
we were talking about earlier just, hey,
- [37:43]
Narrator/Producer
it's going out photographing your friends and the culture and the scene that you love. And now you see younger generation kids getting into photography. Like, I want to be a concert photographer, I want to be a music
- [37:54]
Derek Fassbender
photographer, where that's the goal, that's the
- [37:58]
Narrator/Producer
destination that they're headed to. I mean, are you guys seeing or particularly you, Chris, because you're more in that scene now is booze you just referred to, Are you seeing it?
- [38:07]
Derek Fassbender
Just become overwhelmed and kind of changing
- [38:10]
Narrator/Producer
the concert photography game?
- [38:13]
Chris Ortiz
Absolutely. I am a member of several different Facebook groups on concert photography. And it never ceases to amaze me in how many people are starting up a new online publication in photographing and trying to get into these big shows when they're just starting off and not trying to start where Boosie and I did at the smaller clubs, the house parties, the dive bars, and working the way up, learning the craft before they actually jump in headfirst to the deep end. And some people will go through and, you know, have their cell phones and if you look at any type of like Live Nation contract or AEG contract or even just an individual bands contract, most of the time it will save no cell phones, no tablets, you know, professional grade cameras with detachable lenses. And while those may vary from case to case and what a professional camera might be, I mean you might be looking at like a mirrorless Nikon camera or sometimes, and I have seen this recently, somebody still shooting with a D70 in the pit, which I'm like, ouch. Yeah, that was interesting. Okay. But they have detachable lenses you can go through and shoot. And it's one of those things where they are very particular about what type of camera that you can get into the photo pit. I sometimes still take my COA6 medium format camera, it's known as the poor man's Hasselblad, with a 120 film, into the pit. And sometimes we'll try to shoot with that. And I've been stopped every once In a while. I have my Nikon with me and I have the medium format. People like what's this other thing that's in here? It's like that's not an actual camera. It's like, yes it is. It's film camera. It's meeting format. Please don't open up the back because you can ruin this whole entire 12 shots that I have. And I don't have another roll with me because I don't want to change it out. But yeah, it is interesting to sit back and see.
- [40:10]
Alan Weitz
So that's confusing to me. What's the motivation on Live nations part for prioritizing or requiring. Why do they care?
- [40:18]
Chris Ortiz
I can't speak to them. I don't know why they want certain things and why they don't.
- [40:23]
John Harris
Strange.
- [40:23]
Chris Ortiz
It is strange because like I think we can all attest to the fact that when we go through and look at a modern day cell phone, you know, I have a Google Pixel cell phone and that sure as hell takes better photos than a D70 or even a D300, you know. So why I'm not sure. I think it's just more of a professionalism. I'm not 100% sure.
- [40:46]
Alan Weitz
But my question is what kind of restrictions are they putting in those contracts on rights? Can you use the pictures for commercial purposes or is it just related to the assignment that you're there for and
- [41:01]
John Harris
you have access for?
- [41:02]
Alan Weitz
Or is that spelled out today?
- [41:04]
Chris Ortiz
There's a lot of different clauses and contracts and when they're really restrictive and there's several of us out there that will abide by this, but there's certain artists out there that I'm not going to name names that as soon as you push that shutter release, they own the photo. And I refuse to do those shows or I refuse to do those contracts, especially if I'm shooting for the paper. Somebody that is going to be using these images for documentary purposes to go into our publications like and I always tell them, and this is the honesty God truth, we cannot use a photo that we do not own the rights to.
- [41:42]
Alan Weitz
Right.
- [41:43]
Chris Ortiz
Especially when it's something like that. And if they are trying to go through and claim those rights, then I'm sorry, we will pass on the show and do something else. But for the most part a lot of the bands don't have that in their contract. They will say, okay, no printing of T shirts or something like that. But if you do like bit a little limited press of like an 8 by 10 of let's just say for example Alice Cooper since he lives out in Phoenix, limited edition, numbered, signed. That's not commercialism and that's not selling it for commercial purpose. That's an artistic purpose and that's where the line is drawn. And a lot of the artists understand that. And if you're lucky enough to be able to go through and have exhibitions of your work, they're fine with it. They actually, from what I've been told by certain artists, they actually applaud that because of the fact you're carrying on the tradition of art that they are starting off with and continuing that into your own practice.
- [42:41]
Narrator/Producer
Given all the hurdles to covering live shows in an increasingly fast paced world, it's easy to imagine this work putting the damper on the simple joy of relaxing to a beautiful tune. In February 2021, John and Alan put that very question to Christy Goodwin, house photographer at the Royal Albert Hall. She assured them that since her first love is making pictures, photography will always be her top priority. And she offered a photo editing tip that helps her concentrate when selecting keepers after a long day's work.
- [43:12]
John Harris
So has shooting music kind of ruined music for you? I hate to ask such a question like that, but do you, I mean, when you go home at the end of the day, you know, do you, do you put on music just to relax and listen? Or is it, it's kind of lost that way?
- [43:25]
Christy Goodwin
I have two answers to that. Well, one is, I've never. Well, I am, I like music, right, But I am first and foremost a photography fan. My passion is in photography and I shoot music because it's, it's, it's creative, you know, whatever you get, it's very creative, it's very enjoyable to shoot. So I don't think I per se went in it because of the music. It's because of the love of photography and the source of creativity. Now I will not go to a gig anymore for fun. That's over. I've lost that one. I used to do that way, way back before I shot music, but now I'm over it. I do.
- [44:15]
Jason Tables
Is it because you've been to so
- [44:17]
Christy Goodwin
many concerts and appreciate them, you see through it, you know, it's like if you know how a film is made, you start to see mistakes and things through it and the fun is over. You don't believe in the magic anymore because you've seen behind the magic. So that's a bit rude. But I still like music. And the funny thing I have is when I come home and I go over my pictures, I put one song on repeat I'm a little bit weird like that again. And I put that on repeat to concentrate. And that's how I select my pictures. And that goes very fast. It's like, delete, delete, delete, delete.
- [45:03]
John Harris
Interesting. And do you. Do you consider yourself a kind of a. To have a heavy finger? Do you shoot a lot at a concert?
- [45:10]
Christy Goodwin
No. No. And that's one of my pet peeves, I think. You know, like I said, I'm a fan of photography. I'm passionate about photography. And when I go into the pit, I try to create images. And sometimes next to me, I'll see a photographer who puts it on the fast mode and it goes like, click. And that's filming. You're there to take pictures, you're not there to film. And I think you can. You just get better captures if you put an effort in it. It takes a little effort to basically compose something, to see what's in there to fit the things into your little, you know, your little square than just shooting for the hell of it. I'm sure they'll get a couple of good ones as well out of it, but I don't do that.
- [46:10]
Jason Tables
Should we infer that that means that you keep your camera in single mode where you're still in continuous, but you're just doing one frame at a time? Just curious.
- [46:19]
Christy Goodwin
Yeah, I do. One frame at a time.
- [46:22]
Jason Tables
Okay.
- [46:23]
Alan Weitz
Yeah.
- [46:24]
Jason Tables
I mean, that's typically the way that I work as well.
- [46:26]
Narrator/Producer
Despite sometimes making direct contact with their subjects on stage, Christy fancies herself as being invisible. This adds a touch of magic to her pictures, as John discovered when asking if she planned specific interactions in advance.
- [46:39]
John Harris
And there's a few shots on your website. There's one of the band Dream Theater and Backstreet Boys, where, you know, you're very close into the performers. They're actually looking right at the camera. Was that just a matter of being at the right place at the right time? Or do you often. Or do you ever, you know, speak to the performers beforehand to say, hey, you know, if you're. If you see me, give me a look, or anything along those lines?
- [47:04]
Christy Goodwin
No, it's very funny, actually, but it's the opposite. I always say, don't look at me. I actually don't like it when they look, look at me. Because, you know, that's sort of the wall that gets broken, right. It just like snaps me out of my trance. Like, oh, my fuck. I've been noticed because in my head, and I know it's silly, but in my head, I'm Invisible. And I want to be this invisible witness to their show. And I try my best to be invisible, but sometimes they notice me and don't really like that. Like, for instance, the Back Straight Street Boys. Yeah, he came glaring up to me and luckily I still shot. But the minute after I got my camera down because I was like, don't like that and run up.
- [47:54]
John Harris
You know, I know, showing off, right?
- [47:58]
Christy Goodwin
A lot of people like it when the artist looks into their camera. And sometimes it's nice, but it's. I will not seek it out and I definitely won't ask the artist to look into my lens. If they do it and it's playful, I will capture it, of course, but, you know, I'm not going to insist on it. The funny thing is Joe Bonamassa, who's one of my clients, he calls me the Ninja. Because I try to be like, as invisible as possible and sometimes put myself in very awkward situations just to be invisible. And he sees me popping up there, there. And then he doesn't see me, and he calls me the Ninja.
- [48:46]
Narrator/Producer
The knack for invisibility also came up in our conversation with noted photographer and legendary musician Graham Nash. Listen in as he reminisces with Alan about his indescribable ability to see things differently. And then having the courage to push the trigger.
- [49:02]
Alan Weitz
My father turned me on to the magic of photography. I have never, ever in my life forgotten that moment. It was incredibly important to me. We lived in a very poor house. It was called a two up, two down, meaning two very small rooms downstairs and two small rooms upstairs. My father would take pictures of me and my sister at the local zoo. I would have my, you know, the camera that my father bought for me, and I would take those. The picture of those elephants that you. That you mentioned. But when I took that picture of my mother, I knew I saw something different than most people. You know, from a very early age, from 10, 11 years old, I've always thought that I saw a little differently than most people.
- [49:54]
Jason Tables
Well, it's obvious. I mean, some people just naturally have an eye for it. And what kind of camera did you have? It was just a little hand camera, 35 or medium format that you started with.
- [50:04]
Alan Weitz
Yeah, it was one. It was an AGVA with a small bellows, you know, probably 35 millimeter film. Yeah, very simple, very simple stuff. I like to be invisible. I mean, you can see from a lot of the shots that I take, particularly of people, the people don't know that I'm there.
- [50:24]
Jason Tables
Now you elaborate on that what are your postures or behaviors that you take on? Is it a physical posture or is it a psychological posture that you're taking?
- [50:33]
Alan Weitz
It's both. It has to be both. There's something inside me that when I look through the viewfinder, I know when it's all balanced and I'm not quite sure what I mean by that. And I have the courage to press the trigger. Obviously, Cartier Bresson mentioned the decisive moment and I thoroughly believe in the decisive moment. You know, what are there now 3 or 400 million cameras in the country, you know, more in the world, but very few actual photographers.
- [51:13]
Jason Tables
Thank you.
- [51:14]
Alan Weitz
I'm curious, Graham, about the invisibility thing, because I feel that myself a lot when I'm photographing. Do you find that the people you're photographing not notice you? Are you able to sort of blend into the woodwork to the point where. Yes, I was. Piece of woodwork, absolutely. I've always been that way, having had millions of photographs taken of me. You know, I know when I put on that face, you know, the one where you think you look cool, where you think you look like James Dean, you know, when you know the best side. And I don't like that face. I don't like it in me and I don't like it in other people. I don't like it when people know that I'm taking that picture because I don't want that face. That face has been photographed a million times. I'm not interested. I'm interested in, wow, there's a moment that they never thought that I was
- [52:10]
Narrator/Producer
there to wrap things up. Graham shared some parting words for his fans, which seems like an equally fitting close for this show, particularly since the sentiment he shared applies equally to music and photography.
- [52:22]
Derek Fassbender
So without further ado, there's two things
- [52:25]
Alan Weitz
I want my audience to know. The first thing is that I want to be there making music for them. I want to be there. I'm not going to phone it in, I'm not going to do it half assed. I'm going to. And then secondly, I'm going to sing all those songs even though I've seen some of them millions of times. I'm going to sing them with the same passion I had when I wrote them, because my audience deserve that. They're paying good money to come and see me. They will see something real.
- [52:57]
Jason Tables
It's a pleasure listening to you as a musician growing up with your music. An absolute delight and a pleasure having an hour to chat with you about photography, something that we all obviously love dearly. And hearing you talk about so many of these now historic moments in photography, we could actually call it that if we want. And to know that you're still moving along after all of this time, it's refreshing, it's humbling. It's something to celebrate. And we thank you so, so much for taking the time to join us today on the show.
- [53:32]
Alan Weitz
Alan, you're very welcome. Thank you, Jill. Thank you. I have one more question. Based on what you said about the music holding up and you being as passionate about the music now as when you wrote it, do you find the same thing about your photographs, looking back on your earlier photographs and how photographs hold up over time?
- [53:57]
Jason Tables
Good question.
- [53:58]
Alan Weitz
That's. That's interesting. It goes back to the fact that I see beauty everywhere. I see it in the clouds, I see it in the gutter. I see beauty everywhere. I see compositions that, you know, that, you know, on something in the mud. You know, I see beautiful stuff in the, in the skies. There's beauty all over the place. You just have to put yourself in the position to do that. And what happens with me is every morning I get up, I, you know, do morning stuff and watch the news and all that stuff, and then I'm le. I'm leaving my apartment, I got my camera and I say, okay, world, what have you got to show me? I know there's something weird out there. Where is it? And invariably I find it.
- [54:45]
Jason Tables
Yep, that's it.
- [54:47]
Alan Weitz
That's wonderful.
- [54:48]
Jason Tables
You just got to keep your eyes open, be sensitive.
- [54:51]
Alan Weitz
360 degrees.
- [54:53]
Derek Fassbender
So that's a wrap on our Best of Music Photography mixtape. If you'd like to take a deeper dive into any of the original episodes, you'll find links in our podcast Show Notes. As always, thank you to our listeners for joining us today. At the top of the show, we mentioned our exciting plans to update our format and switch to a video podcast. So please subscribe and follow BH Podcast Network on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok to stay updated on everything to come. You can also find us on the Explorer Blog where we post photos from our guests along with the show notes. I'm your host Derek Fosbender. Jill Waterman is our creative producer. We were joined on this episode by the voices and talents of past B and H Photography podcast members. Host Alan Weitz, creative producer John Harris, technical producers Jason Tables and Mike Weinstein. And a big welcome goes to our newest team member, video producer Peter Maziarz, who assembled these clips into today's episode. And finally, Our executive producer is Dana Glidden. On behalf of us all, thank you so much for tuning in today.