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- [00:00]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I come with more ideas than is necessary just because if something's not working or if it's just not vibing, then you know we've got some other ideas or we don't have to do anything. We can just do beautiful portraits and that's fine too. So it's extremes from beautiful portraits to completely nutty wacky stuff.
- [00:20]
Podcast Announcer
You're listening to the B and H photography podcast. For 50 years, B& H has been the professional source for photography, video, audio and more. For your favorite gear, news and reviews, visit us at@b&h.com or download the B and H app to your iPhone or Android device. Now here's your host, Derek Fazbender.
- [00:41]
Derek Fosbinder
Welcome listeners. I'm Derek Fosbinder, host of the B and H Photography Podcast. Ten years ago, the podcast was created as a way to spark candid conversations about all things photography with the kind of insightful and accomplished artists whose careers and bodies of work influence and impact photographers of all kinds of in the near future, we have some exciting changes coming your way as we evolve with a new look, but the same classic approach to getting inside the minds of the creative professionals we look up to, celebrate and draw inspiration from. In the meantime, we've taken a deep dive into our decade long archive to bring back some of our favorite conversations,
- [01:20]
Derek Fazbender
starting with the chat I hosted last
- [01:22]
Derek Fosbinder
year with Saturday Night Live's longtime photographer in residence, the incredibly talented Mary Ellen Matthews, who is about to wrap the 51st season of this cultural phenomenon week in, week out. For more than two decades, Mary Ellen has conjured visual magic behind the scenes, creating inventive and irreverent portraits that air for three seconds each as so called bumpers that transition to and from the show's commercial breaks. Through her exuberant presence that puts subjects at ease, her creative and playful styling on set, and intensive fine tuning in post, Mary Ellen produces unique and recognizable portraits under the manic deadlines of live TV. What's more, in 2010 she began directing SNL's video clips, including the show's opening title sequence. A few recent clients include Peacock, Hulu, Netflix, Paramount Pictures, 20th Century Studios and Prime Video, as well as publications such as Variety, Rolling Stone, Marie Claire, and the Spanish edition of Harper's Bazaar. Most notably, in March 2025, Matthews first book, The Art of the SNL Portrait was released to mark the 50th anniversary of this revolution in late night TV. Marielle and Matthews, welcome to the show.
- [02:37]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Well, that was a lovely introduction. Thank you. I kind of was like, wow, that's not bad.
- [02:45]
Derek Fazbender
It's always nerve wracking to hear people intro you and talk about you, and you're sitting there and you're like, wow, I really am her. Yes, I am.
- [02:52]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Well, I mean, it's nice to hear back because I just love being part of SNL this whole time, and it just makes me really proud to be part of it.
- [03:00]
Derek Fazbender
Yeah, we. We talked a little bit before we started recording today about that. You know, you are living the dream. You love your job and it really isn't lost on you. And I think that's such a cool thing, is that you live in the moment, but still the little girl who dreams big is in your body right now and every bit as present in what you do.
- [03:22]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah. You know. Cause the show keeps moving and each week it's the same thing, but it's different. So it's just like starting over again each week, and then you get to do it again. You get to be creative. So that's when I'm like, oh, my God, this is such a wonderful way to participate to the show. And also I get to be creative each week like this with all these incredible people. It's unbelievable. And I'm just so grateful and proud to be a part of it all.
- [03:51]
Derek Fazbender
Yeah, that's one of the things that I think is so cool is it's like, okay, it's snl. It's not like Nightly News where it's like, okay, cool, we're taking standard boardroom portraits. You're having people come in who. It's kind of like when you go to Las Vegas and you know everyone's there for the same reason. It's like you're there either on vacation to have fun or have a weekend that you can't tell anybody about. And I feel like with snl, it's like everyone's going there for the same reason. It's. It's fun.
- [04:18]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I mean, it is fun. Comedy by trade is fun, but there's a lot of deadlines, there's a lot of stress because we all want to do better than we did last week. It's just another chance to do it again and do it smarter, do it fresher, do it better. Just in general, but what can I say? It's amazing. I'm not trying to showcase the problems because there really aren't any, but there are some challenges. I should say it's the definition of
- [04:43]
Derek Fazbender
work hard, play hard.
- [04:44]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah.
- [04:45]
Derek Fazbender
Let's go way back before the SNL days. Now, look, Jersey ties. I gotta shout out new Jersey, Because I'm from New Jersey. We know all the greatest people. Hillsboro, smack dab in the middle. And people will say it's south, but it's not. It's central. There is actually central Jersey.
- [05:00]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Okay. Yes, there is.
- [05:01]
Derek Fazbender
Whereabouts in Jersey are you from?
- [05:03]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I'm from Madison.
- [05:05]
Derek Fazbender
Okay.
- [05:05]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Shout out Madison.
- [05:07]
Derek Fazbender
Shout out to Madison. Very nice area. Now, your father, hobbyist, photographer. So you have been around cameras, books, traditional dark room techniques from an early age. Was photography something that. Did you look up to your father and that's the route you wanted to take, or how did your father's photography influence you?
- [05:25]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I think it was a way to connect with him, the way to play with him, love what he loves. So I think there's a deep connection there for sure. Be like your dad, you know what I mean? He showed me how to work in the dark room with him, and I would stand on the couple boxes to get up to his height and do the fixer and all the chemicals and you know how it goes. But, God, it's been a minute, so I'm trying to remember it all. What are the steps?
- [05:51]
Jill Waterman
Developer stop. Bath fix.
- [05:54]
Mary Ellen Matthews
That's right. Yes. That's a good name for a podcast in photography, actually.
- [05:59]
Jill Waterman
Oh, yeah.
- [05:59]
Mary Ellen Matthews
But anyway, so, yes, I mean, it's literal magic to work. Develop a black and white print in front of your eyes. I was spellbound to take a moment and then give birth to that moment and you could have it in your hands. I was spellbound.
- [06:15]
Derek Fazbender
Yeah. Look, I have to tangent for a minute because I think that's one of the things, like film has come back and there's this romanticism about the look of film. But I think for those of us that grew up in the era when that's all you had, the whole process, it's romantic from the start. It's that Christmas morning where you give the film to your mom and she. Seattle Filmworks was there. Seattle Filmworks. My mom used to send her film out and it's like, you back a couple weeks later.
- [06:42]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yes. Oh, my God. So much fun.
- [06:43]
Derek Fazbender
I know we're over here. It's like waxing poetic.
- [06:45]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I know. So nostalgic. But, you know, it's still. I mean, I still shoot film for my own stuff and for some jobs, and it really is so exciting to get the film back and go through all that again.
- [06:56]
Derek Fazbender
Definitely. So let's fast forward a little bit. Moved out to New York City. It is a place of opportunity. And obviously you're what, half an hour outside of the city growing up and in 1993, you're working for a record label. You get a call about assisting for Edie Baskin, who was the photographer in residence at SNL at the time.
- [07:15]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yes.
- [07:16]
Derek Fazbender
Did Edie know about you? How did your name come up in this conversation?
- [07:18]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Her then assistant, Leslie. We knew each other through somebody else. We had a mutual friend, and she knew that I was very into photography. I was working for a record label then, and I was shooting all the bands. I was running around every night and just making myself available to do PR shoots or live shoots or whatever. And she. She knew that I was interested and she had that job and she was leaving, so she thought of me, and that's how that happened. I went in and interviewed with Edie.
- [07:46]
Derek Fazbender
What were the nerves like?
- [07:48]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Ridiculous. Ridiculous. I mean, first of all, to work with someone like her, she's so iconic. She started that type of photography for the show. She made that a thing. And I just remember thinking how cool they were. I was very aware of what she did then. And so, yeah, to meet the woman, you know, but she's been a great mentor, and we're still very good friends.
- [08:10]
Derek Fazbender
Was it hard, you know, being that she made it what it was? Was there pressure to. You know, as artists, we love to be our own person. We want to develop our own style, make our own mark. Was it immense footsteps to walk into? Did you feel like there was room to have your own style?
- [08:25]
Mary Ellen Matthews
You know, I just wanted to make her proud. I remember that feeling was the first thing. I just wanted to make her proud that she made the right decision. And it was kind of a tricky spot. I didn't want to repeat what she did because that's her visual voice. And I had to figure out how to make it my own.
- [08:41]
Derek Fazbender
What was the most important thing she taught you in the time. I mean, it was, what, seven years that you worked under her before taking over?
- [08:46]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yes. Yeah. You know, I think it's an amazing thing how much you can accomplish in a very short time and just how to treat people with respect. And, you know, when you're dealing with that kind of top talent, it's a whole other set of skills, to be honest. So there's a lot that goes with that.
- [09:03]
Derek Fazbender
Every time you talk to somebody who's at the top of the game and you ask about, well, what did you learn? This and that. And it's so funny how often the answer has nothing to do with buttons and settings and lights and all this. It's like life advice. It's stuff that can be Applied, like, work hard, be nice to people, be easy to work with, be on time.
- [09:19]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yep. You know, the technical part of it is one thing, but then you're in the driver's seat, and you've got a whole busload of very important people to take care of.
- [09:29]
Derek Fazbender
A Q and A in your book talks about having anxiety when you took over as principal photographer in 1999. I get anxiety just waking up in the morning, so I can't even imagine undertaking that. You know, we kind of talked about, you know, you're taking over, you'd worked under Edie, but at the same time, you have to develop your style. How long did it take you to settle in and be like, you know what? I'm here for a reason. I got this. I know what I'm doing.
- [09:52]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah. I would say a good couple years. You know, we all have imposter syndrome for sure, just to get in the groove and, again, try to find my own way to do it. So it took a couple years.
- [10:03]
Derek Fazbender
I'd say let's not let it get lost on us that you're not just following after an iconic photographer. You're working with iconic person after iconic person. A range of personalities and levels of ego, I guess, are involved, and that can kind of make it difficult to navigate, right?
- [10:20]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yes. And that was probably the biggest learning curve, how to step into those shoes. At that moment, when I didn't really have a ton of experience being the one who was dealing with them directly, I was assisting Edie, so I was watching it go down and learning that way. But to, you know, kind of step in those shoes and talk, the talk, was a big learning curve.
- [10:43]
Podcast Announcer
Hey, by the way, Mary, did Lauren have anything to say with you getting hired, or was it just taking Edie's word?
- [10:50]
Mary Ellen Matthews
You know, I don't know what their conversation was. I'm sure he did. And towards the end of her years there, I was taking over for her a little bit here and there because she had some other things in life going on. So he was getting to know me then, so he wasn't like, oh, who is this person?
- [11:08]
Podcast Announcer
Right.
- [11:09]
Mary Ellen Matthews
You know, I was trying to make myself known a little bit.
- [11:12]
Derek Fazbender
What was the transition like going from the record label? I mean, it's not like, hey, one moment I'm doing family portraits, and the next I'm working Saturday Night Live. From a perspective of deadlines, was the record label as demanding, or was it in the same arena?
- [11:26]
Mary Ellen Matthews
No, nothing is in the same arena. Saturday Night Live, I have to say, nothing that I've Experienced, you know, that was a publicist at a record label. So it was talking to the press and getting bands out there and booking shows and stuff like that. So there's a little bit of talent interaction when I was doing that. So there was that. But, you know, nothing like these deadlines that we're on. And, you know, as. As you keep going, you know what the deadlines are and you know how to do it. Now.
- [11:56]
Derek Fazbender
Now, one of my favorite things to talk about with photographers who have worked in the film age and had to undergo that transition to the digital age is just that for you, was that something that was difficult? Were you one of the holdouts who was like, I'm holding on to film as long as possible, or were you an early adopter for our schedule?
- [12:14]
Mary Ellen Matthews
It was a godsend. This is actually the way it worked during Edie's time. And when I first took over, we did the photo shoots on Tuesdays, so there was a lot of time to do post production and edit and decide what was gonna happen, et cetera. That was the host on Tuesday, and then the music was Thursday, so you had two days to shoot, so it wasn't all in the same day. And that was film. So we used to get our film developed at US Color down on Bleeper street and then go look at the clips and then, you know, decide how the rest of the session be developed and then have the slides scanned. It was, again, like a godsend for the scheduling for us, because then digital was then in there, and you saw everything and it was a lot quicker and easier. But then they moved all the shooting till Thursday, so now everything's on Thursday. And I don't think we could do film even if you wanted to.
- [13:07]
Derek Fazbender
Definitely. And now, all these years later, you look at the technology we have, and it's like, wow. I know. The younger generation is like, how the hell did they ever. Like the moment you have to capture as good as you are at your craft. I mean, it really puts a light on how good you had to be back in the day, you couldn't just pick up a camera one day.
- [13:25]
Mary Ellen Matthews
And I know, gosh, getting slide film developed, that has been a minute. Judging the clips.
- [13:32]
Podcast Announcer
I'm kind of curious, you know, when the transition to digital happened, you know, was that I guess 2004, maybe three or something like that? Or was it later for you guys?
- [13:42]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I think it was about 2003. I think that's right.
- [13:45]
Jill Waterman
Yeah.
- [13:46]
Derek Fazbender
Yeah.
- [13:46]
Podcast Announcer
Was there an anxiety there or, you know, did you have to sort of like, rejigger the protocol and the workflow.
- [13:53]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yes. I think we started with the Hasselblad. I don't know why we. I can't remember why we started digital Hasselblad. Not just 35, but we had a tech come in and there was a million problems. Like the body wasn't working and we had like two or three backups. Like, it was not an easy transition. I kind of remember that. And I think we were working with Milk then and they would send their own dedicated tech with the cameras.
- [14:20]
Podcast Announcer
Right.
- [14:21]
Derek Fazbender
What do you shoot on today?
- [14:22]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I use Canon when we shoot for snl. Sometimes I'll rent a Hasselblad, depending on what we're doing. If we're doing like a big cast photo, it needs to be a much higher res just because they use them for billboards and such. So then we'll go into medium format digital. But this year, because of the 50th, we wanted to do something very special for the cast photo this year. So I shot 4 by 5 for that, which kind of just gave it a gravitas while we were shooting, just to make the moment more special.
- [14:51]
Derek Fazbender
And the rest of your kit, as far as the lenses is concerned, do you stick to. Is there like an everyday workhorse lens or does it bounce around?
- [14:58]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, just the zoom. The 2470, because I shoot really fast and I liked people to just kind of move in the space and react in a different way than a very sort of still portraiture way of doing things. Sometimes when I do that, then I'll move to the 85, but mostly it's the 24 to 70.
- [15:17]
Derek Fazbender
Okay. I saw you had posted the crew that you work with recently on your Instagram, so shout out to them. We all know great photographers need a great crew, and that's like the everyday. That's the family.
- [15:30]
Mary Ellen Matthews
That's the family. Will Heath, Rosalyn o' Connor and Alex Schaefer. And we have Caro. And then every season we hire a new batch of interns.
- [15:38]
Derek Fazbender
And what does a typical day look like for you guys? I mean, how much of your week is pre production versus post production and the actual shoots?
- [15:47]
Mary Ellen Matthews
My job is to come up with ideas, concepts, and just formulate what we're going to be doing on Thursday. So as soon as I find out who's booked, then I kind of go to work on researching the person if I haven't worked with them before. Like, we have repeat offenders like Scarlett or Jon Hamm, you know, you know these people now. But also I like to find out what they're promoting what photo shoots or any kind of promotion they've been doing so you don't step on those toes. And so, you know, so that my team is getting ready to. If we do need a different lens, if I do need to get some color gels or, you know, we're ordering props and set pieces and things like that. So they're real helpful in that. And then we do video also at the same time for the opening of the show with each host and musical guest. And then we. I do these sort of fun vignettes for Instagram, for social, with each host and musical guest each week, too. So we do video and stills on Thursday.
- [16:46]
Podcast Announcer
When did you start doing video?
- [16:47]
Mary Ellen Matthews
That's a good question. I'd say maybe 10 years ago or so.
- [16:51]
Podcast Announcer
And was that something new for you?
- [16:53]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yes. I mean, I had directed a few music videos, but for Saturday Night Live it was. Yeah.
- [16:58]
Derek Fazbender
Was that always an interest? You know, I know a lot of people have. They're inspired by film early on in their career or even before they're in the. The career. It's like, you're a film buff. But then some people are like, you know what? I'm happy with stills. I have no desire.
- [17:11]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Like, if there was 700 days to the year, I would totally be more involved in film. I was a PA and then I moved to the camera department for maybe three or four movies. So that was great experience, too. They used to call me the Camera Tomato.
- [17:31]
Jill Waterman
Yeah, that sounds like a great idea for a portrait.
- [17:35]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I know, right?
- [17:37]
Derek Fazbender
Well, you know what? You took us there, Jill. So if you could direct your own SNL bumper photo shoot, I mean, how would that go down for you? If someone's got to photograph you and it's got to be in.
- [17:48]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Oh, from.
- [17:49]
Derek Fazbender
Oh, you had to be on the other side of the camera. How's it going down?
- [17:52]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Oh, my God. I don't know. I'd rather not be honest, but camera tomato. Yes. Because of the book, I had to do a bunch of press, and I'm still doing it, which has really been fun to do, but I had to. I forget what the outlet was, but they wanted to do a photo shoot with me, and they had all these fun props, like, you know, ones that would be something, I guess they thought that I would have. So it was kind of fun. They kind of went there with that.
- [18:18]
Podcast Announcer
Kind of begs a question for me, Mary. How often do you. The guests dictate, like, their shoot? You know, are there some guests? There's like, no. Look, I'm doing This thing.
- [18:29]
Mary Ellen Matthews
And I wouldn't say it's. They're digging their heels in the sand. It's more. You know, I love when can be collaborative. Of course, you know, if you have any ideas, please bring them. And. And a lot of people are. And that's why I did the whole chapter of John Mulaney, because he loves doing these and he loves to be collaborative. And as soon as he knows he's been booked, I'll get a text from him like, what are we doing? He's a lot of fun that way. And, of course, I want to make dreams come true. Whatever you want to do, we can make it happen.
- [19:01]
Derek Fazbender
I think that's the most fun part for me. Being a consumer of what you're producing is seeing actors, actresses, notable celebrities, and people in such a different light than you're used to seeing them, where I feel like you can see the real them coming out and they are legitimately having fun. And I think as a creative, as a photographer, that can sometimes be the hardest task, especially with someone who, for most of these people, their. Their career is to act and is to put on a certain face. And you can really, really see there's an authentic nature. Like, they are legitimately having the time of their lives. And I always love trying to see, like, okay, is this person, how involved were they? And there's certain people that jump out. I loved your series. So Emma Stone is. The images over the years, it's like they're all different. They're all very you, they're all very her, but they're different. And it's like you can kind of see, and you start to turn the wheels in your head that this person probably loves having this chance to go in here. Like, you were just saying, okay, when are we doing this? What ideas are we gonna have?
- [20:07]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, you know, it also, there's a lot of other people involved, too. You know, we have an amazing costume designer, Tom Broeker, who really gets involved with these kinds of things. Like, someone needs to be dressed up. Like Sarah Silverman. She was a maid dusting off the marquee. So getting that right. So it really is a collaborative beyond the talent and myself. It's. It's all these other people, the stylists and makeup artists who make it all come together.
- [20:31]
Derek Fazbender
Jill, I can read your mind. I know you want to stay on that Sarah Silverman.
- [20:35]
Podcast Announcer
Yeah.
- [20:35]
Derek Fazbender
Marquis portrait right there. Climbing up the ladder to dust off the marquee. The quote in your book about getting into a little bit of trouble or having permissions we talk about that?
- [20:46]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yes. That was a dicey moment. I was talking to a dear friend of mine, Sean Patrick, who, by the way, owns Acme Brooklyn, which is that big prop house. But anyway, we were talking on the phone. I was in a cab on the way up there, and I was sitting up doing Sarah. And then we were kind of just batting around some ideas, and that came out in our conversation. I was like, oh, my God, I gotta do this. And I texted Tom. The hair, makeup, and props department within SNL always get these texts, and I know that I must drive them crazy, because when the idea hits you, it just hits you. It doesn't matter if it's two days before or if it's 20 minutes before I get out of the cab. Anyway, we thought of that and Sarah loved it. And so we kind of just did it. And, you know, a building like Rockefeller center, you can't just do that. Tishman's Fire owns it, and you have to jump through all the legal hoops and get permission. And we just were like, yeah, we'll just do that. And they didn't like that very much. But in the end it was fine. And I just can't ever do that again.
- [21:49]
Derek Fazbender
Is there a lot of restrictions? I mean, I can only imagine. As you said, this is, you know, there's a lot of deadlines. It's Saturday Night Live. It's not public access tv. Is there like a giant book of do's and don'ts in any of that?
- [22:03]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I'm sure there is. I have never seen it, nor do I want.
- [22:08]
Derek Fazbender
It's one of those things. If you don't end up in the principal's office, you don't have to worry about it.
- [22:11]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, yeah. When you work in such an iconic building like that, you know, it's nice to know that the Top of the Rock is just sitting there. We can use it. We just have to do it in the right way. And when we were shooting Jason Momoa, he's gotten into playing guitar now and was a beautiful day. I guess this was not last season, but the season before. And I was like, let's get you playing that flying V on the top of New York City. So, you know, made some phone calls and we got to run up there real quick.
- [22:41]
Derek Fazbender
That's great. And I know he's one of those people that is. I mean, he's a photographer. He's into the whole creative thing. And so I'm personal friends with one of his photographers. So I get to see, like, secondhand
- [22:53]
Mary Ellen Matthews
through what's his name. He's a great guy.
- [22:55]
Derek Fazbender
Jason Roman.
- [22:56]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yes.
- [22:57]
Derek Fazbender
He is such a good guy, super talented. And it's so funny because, like I said, I get to follow along kind of second, third hand through what Jason posts. Jason Roman. Yep. And Jason Momoa just looks like he's one of those people. You're just like, that dude must be a ton of fun to hang out with.
- [23:17]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah. It's like following in his wake of fun and you can't buy enthusiasm. He's just in 100 million percent. I love being around that guy. I love when he comes around. He'll come and watch a show once in a while or cruise through. And, you know, with the 50th anniversary, there were a lot of people who came back and it was so much fun to see everyone again.
- [23:36]
Derek Fazbender
Does that expand what you can do when you have somebody that understands your job as well as you understand?
- [23:40]
Jill Waterman
Yeah.
- [23:40]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Oh, absolutely. And again, like I said, like, repeat offenders of people who have come before know what to expect and can, you know, kind of put their thinking cap on. And that's what makes it more fun because they'll have some ideas or they want or don't want to do.
- [23:54]
Derek Fazbender
And let's. Let's go back to the prop house while we're there because we're talking about, you know, having fun with shoots. Is there, like, how did the props come in? Where in the process do you decide? Is there kind of like a general theme and then you just start piecing it together or sometimes is it reverse engineered, like, hey, I want to use this prop. Let's find a way to incorporate it.
- [24:12]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, sometimes, I guess. But I think. I don't know when this started to open up. Instead of it just being portraits of these guys and gals to concepts of like Josh Brolin. Imagine him being on a horse. And this was years ago. And then I lit him like he was riding into the sunset to actually getting a horse and putting it in Times Square. So everything kind of opened up. And for good or for bad, that
- [24:41]
Jill Waterman
must have required some permissioning.
- [24:44]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Oh, that for sure. You know, we have this wonderful department who takes care of that kind of stuff. Dina Moles is head of that department and literally makes dreams come true. I'm like, I've got this great idea. Is it possible? And then sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. But, you know, we all love to dig in creatively and kind of flex that muscle of like, what can we do in New York City? So there are a lot of people who are Very supportive to this kind of creativity.
- [25:13]
Derek Fazbender
I'm just picturing you in line at the grocery store getting hit with an idea like, oh, my God, we got to do this. And it's the wildest thing, and it happens like that.
- [25:22]
Mary Ellen Matthews
You don't know where you're gonna find it and where it hits, for sure.
- [25:25]
Derek Fazbender
Where does a lot of your inspiration come or has it come in your career? Were there people or, you know, movies, films, or anything that.
- [25:33]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Well, all of it. I mean, you know, we keep our eyes open and, you know, sometimes it's nice to have somebody who is playing on the contradiction of a comedian doing something very serious and vice versa. So it's nice to play against type.
- [25:47]
Derek Fazbender
And I'm guessing most of the people that are coming on, they're into it. I mean, you're coming on Saturday Night Live. You kind of know it comes with the territory. You know what you're getting into, or is there people that you've dealt with where it's like, you know, I'm kind of.
- [25:59]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, for sure. Also, my job is to make this easy and fast, and I don't want anyone to be overthinking anything because they've got enough to worry about with, you know, all the sketches and all the pre tapes and their responsibilities to the rest of the show, which is the most important thing.
- [26:15]
Podcast Announcer
So what's your week like, Mary Ellen? Are you on set Monday through Saturday?
- [26:21]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I am not there on Monday. That's more of, like, people catching their breath and getting things returned from the last week. Like, all the props go back or anything that we've had, camera bits and things that we've rented. And that's kind of like every. Let's put everything back into place and reset. And so then it kind of goes from there. Although they have a big writers meeting for whomever is hosting that week. So if it's Emma Stone, say they come in on Monday and start pitching ideas to whomever is hosting and kind of start getting the wheels turning. And I don't really have anything to do with that.
- [26:56]
Jill Waterman
So do your photo ideas ever get inspired or come from the skits that are being done or they totally separate.
- [27:05]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Those are two separate entities. And, you know, it has happened that something may kind of double up, just happened by coincidence. So it doesn't want to seem like this is part of the sketch. So try to keep those. These things separate.
- [27:18]
Derek Fazbender
It seems like it's more freeing for you to not have to be bound by what the sketch's going.
- [27:23]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, 100%. I'll leave them to that.
- [27:26]
Derek Fazbender
Well, this seems like a wonderful time to take a break. So go ahead, stand up, stretch, shake it out. If you're already standing, standing, please have a seat. And when we return, we will continue our conversation with the wonderful Mary Ellen Matthews about her stunning celebrity portraits from Saturday Night Live and, frankly, coolest job ever. There, I said it.
- [27:45]
Podcast Announcer
We hope you're enjoying this edition of the Beanlys Photography podcast. The best way to support the show is by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. For links to gear and more information on today's guests, check out the show notes on your podcast app or visit our homepage on the BH Explorer website and join our BH Photography Podcast Facebook group. And now back to the show.
- [28:13]
Derek Fazbender
And we are back with Mary Ellen Matthews. Now, before the break, we got the lowdown on your gear. We covered some broad strokes about your pictures, and we kind of decided we want to dive back into the gear because over the break, we were talking four by five. So let's dive back into that conversation. Mike's like, he's still got the chops.
- [28:30]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Marilyn's like, of course they have to be brushed up. They're in there. So I was saying while we were on break, I was asking, are you guys actually at bh? Because as you know, like, that's the place to go when you need something. Gotta go get some gear. Gotta go bh. And it's always a fun outing, but I was saying I gotta get back in there because I want to buy a 4x5. I had one. I had a senar, but it kind of got misplaced, weirdly enough. So part of my job is to do the bumpers, but there's a lot of photography to the job, and one of them is when there's graphics that are used for the sketches. So I'll make this up. Like, we're talking about Jason Momoa. Like, maybe he's in a heavy metal band. That's a sketch. So you might need an album cover when you come into the sketch. So we would have to do that. So we used to use 4 by 5 Polaroid because there wasn't digital photography. And the writers would write these sketches, and we'd have to do it Friday night.
- [29:32]
Jill Waterman
Wow.
- [29:33]
Mary Ellen Matthews
So we would use 4x5 Polaroid, and then they would scan them in the graphic department and then add, like, you know, whatever the name of the band is. So we'd have to get everybody dressed up and the cast members that were in the Sketch along with whomever was posting. So anyway, we would do that. We would do 4x5 Polaroid back then. Isn't that fun?
- [29:53]
Jill Waterman
That's crazy.
- [29:54]
Mary Ellen Matthews
But now we can't do that anymore because there isn't anything polar. Right. Is there?
- [30:00]
Derek Fazbender
We've had to downsize. It's like you have all the little companies popping up. Who is it impossible that started making.
- [30:06]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:07]
Derek Fazbender
You know, and even like the. I always loved the fp, you know, the Fujifilm FP for the, you know, the Peel Apart film. And it's like even if you wanted to dive really back in, you can't.
- [30:19]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I mean, unless you find some archival stuff. But I don't even think you can find four by five Polaroid anymore. Right?
- [30:27]
Jill Waterman
Yeah. I think it's world away in a few photographers refrigerators.
- [30:33]
Podcast Announcer
But that's interesting. I wouldn't even have thought about that. The fact that, you know, you're working for the art department in some cases taking pictures that need to be be props for skits. Yeah.
- [30:44]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yes, exactly. So now that happens the same way. But of course it's just, you know, pop in a card or connect the laptop and there you go.
- [30:57]
Derek Fazbender
That's one of the things I miss about the old days is seeing iconic photographers Polaroids, like their test Polaroids and from the past. And it's like you'll never see that again.
- [31:10]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, well I, you know, unless you've got a stash or can find it,
- [31:15]
Derek Fazbender
this is the most Bronx thing ever. But I know a guy who has a refrigerator full of Fujifilm FP3000B and sells it for an insane amount. How he's held onto it and he's kept it in his refrigerator. And I'm like, as a friend, you know, I have an old Polaroid land camera and I'm like, you know, can I just get like one pack? I just want to see if the camera works. He's like $250.
- [31:38]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I've got a few too. I have it in my refrigerator too. And I don't know why I'm holding on to it. It's like just, just go shoot it.
- [31:44]
Derek Fazbender
Special moment, waiting for it.
- [31:46]
Podcast Announcer
So you're going to pick up a new 4x5 Marion?
- [31:49]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I'd like to. Or maybe a used one. I've got to go over there and start. Start the process.
- [31:55]
Podcast Announcer
What about that 4x5 look? Like, what did you see in those pictures that you couldn't get like from renting like a digital Hasselblad or something like that?
- [32:03]
Mary Ellen Matthews
It's in the Doing. Right. It's in the process. And, you know, I shoot so fast with doing this, and it's just kind of the way I've been doing it. And I just want to slow down and compose this summer. I really want that personal project of. I always make this joke, like shooting a mayonnaise jar, like, lighting up beautifully. Whatever. Like, I just. I want to just kind of take a little swerve.
- [32:27]
Jill Waterman
Yeah.
- [32:28]
Derek Fazbender
It's like your brain is constantly on and constantly thinking and cranking. And many of us. That's the struggle right there.
- [32:36]
Derek Fosbinder
Like, you.
- [32:37]
Derek Fazbender
You have to work with a blank canvas constantly and have to generate these ideas, which I think is. So. It's so admirable to come up with what you do. I think a lot of people think it is. Is something. It's not where it's like, oh, the ideas are fed and they got a whole. It's like, no, you're working with a blank canvas. Everything you see is. It's creative.
- [32:54]
Mary Ellen Matthews
And I love it. I love doing it. You know, I work with copious management, and I do a lot of movie posters or ad stuff that requires this kind of thought process. And I love doing it. I love figuring out the puzzle and how to make sense of a movie script in one image. It's a fun thing to work on.
- [33:11]
Derek Fazbender
How much time are you afforded with people? I know that's always the thing with celebrity portraits is like, you might have 30 seconds in a broom closet. Does it change with SNL? Do you have more time or is it still on the same strict.
- [33:23]
Mary Ellen Matthews
We've scheduled, like 90 minutes or something an hour to do this, and it's a busy day, but it's fun because you gotta just keep moving. And we're all used to a tight schedule, so I find it's better to. If you have too much time, then you start overthinking and you're adding problems to it. But if you've got a tight 30 seconds in a broom closet, then those parameters can really show up in a cool way. You can show up for that 30 seconds in a cool way.
- [33:53]
Podcast Announcer
And that's the Thursday shoot.
- [33:54]
Mary Ellen Matthews
That's Thursday. Yeah.
- [33:56]
Podcast Announcer
And the video. If video is involved, that happens simultaneously within that time. Yeah, right, right.
- [34:04]
Mary Ellen Matthews
But that's a really fun thing to do, is come up with these little ideas to have these guys participate in. Like with Willem Dafoe, you know, I came up with this idea that, you know, he's doing the magic briefcase bit. So he walks in and he has a briefcase, puts it down on the Table. And of course, we've got the hole in the table, and we're feeding, you know, a bunch of balloons. And he's like, oh, my goodness, there's balloons in the briefcase. Whatever. You know, that bit, he had fun with that. And that's the biggest part for me is just getting people just to have fun.
- [34:33]
Podcast Announcer
Those video clips, and those exist primarily on your Instagram.
- [34:37]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, yeah. On SNL's Instagram.
- [34:39]
Derek Fazbender
Yeah.
- [34:39]
Podcast Announcer
You know, they really do. Derek, you were saying earlier that they have this sort of, like, in between kind of, because they're not acting and they're not like, you know, candid pictures, but they're sort of in between. And you do get a sense, like a real flavor for the human being in those clips. I really, really appreciate them. Yeah, they're really, really cool. They're like, they pack a lot of punch.
- [35:01]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I gotta put them into one place and just, you know, so people can look at them. Because with this kind of content, it just keeps moving and moving, and then they get so much more content added and just gets lost in the sauce. But it'd be nice to have them in one place.
- [35:15]
Derek Fazbender
It is. It's hard. It's like it's overload.
- [35:17]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah.
- [35:17]
Derek Fazbender
You could take the greatest image in the world, and it's like, okay, well, it's been painted over tomorrow.
- [35:22]
Mary Ellen Matthews
You know, that happened yesterday. So that's old news now, right?
- [35:26]
Derek Fazbender
24 hours is such a long time. It was funny. You said Willem Dafoe. It's like he's one of the people that has jumped out when I've seen the image. And it's like, he looks like he's really into it.
- [35:38]
Mary Ellen Matthews
What a guy. I mean, his presence is incredible. He's so generous with his time and his talent. And again, going back to that little vignette that we did, like, we had to do it, like, three takes, and he was so patient and so wonderful. And at the end, he was like, I could have done that better, you know? Oh, no, you were fine. You were great. Willem's been on a couple times, and definitely he's such a. An amazing talent that you just can't even get your head around it. And, you know, I'm in the funny business, so you don't want to go too goofy with someone like that. But also, they like to have fun.
- [36:13]
Derek Fazbender
See, as you're talking about this, it's opening up another layer of anxiety of in me for you, where I'm like, yeah, it's like, yeah, it's cool. But then you're like, well, how do I get them open? Do I make a joke? What if it's a bad joke? This guy's a clown.
- [36:28]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, yeah. Here, put these clown shoes on and this nose. No, no, don't do that. I gotta be careful.
- [36:35]
Derek Fazbender
What is the test shoots? Like, if you're doing an idea, you know, is it. It's gotta be, you know, okay, we can get the lighting down or we can get this down or that down, but you never know what the personality is gonna give you until it's your personality. So how do you guys test?
- [36:48]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I come with more ideas than is necessary. Just because if something's not working or if it's just not vibing, then, you know, we've got some other ideas or we don't have to do anything. We can just do beautiful portraits and that's fine too. So it's extremes from beautiful portraits to completely nutty wacky stuff.
- [37:09]
Derek Fazbender
And I'm guessing you would have everything at your disposal. You have a nice stage space. You guys are what, adjacent to where they rehearse for the musical performance?
- [37:17]
Mary Ellen Matthews
We are in Studio 8H is where it all happens. And so we get a little space carved out for us on Thursdays and sometimes it has to move around depending on how the show is picked. So they pick sketches and then they've got to production design these sketches and we. What stage are they going to go on? Which area in 8H is it going to be? So if it needs to be designed, we might have to move around a little bit to accommodate that because that's the most important and we just need to find our little space to make it happen.
- [37:51]
Derek Fazbender
It's like the typical professional commercial photographer life. You're a problem solver for sure and,
- [37:56]
Mary Ellen Matthews
you know, it's amazing what you can do in a little amount of time and a tiny space. And we can always figure it out. We'll figure it out.
- [38:03]
Derek Fazbender
You know, you talked about the horse photo and it's like, okay, you have your studio space. If you're working in there, that's fine. Is there ever an idea that popped up and it's like, okay, we have like, you know, no time to schedule this. It might need a permit, it might not. Is there something that jumps out where you're flying by the seat of your pants, last second change, or maybe a cool idea that popped up at the last moment 100%.
- [38:24]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Like I was saying with the Sarah Silverman idea that just happened at the last minute, it just sort of fell into my brain. So we've got all These great people to ask Tina Fey, many years ago, when she first host, she stepped on to set, they decided to put her in a tight black dress. And I was like, oh, my goodness, that looks like a Robert Palmer. So I'm dating myself. Robert Palmer girls.
- [38:49]
Derek Fazbender
That video is an all time classic.
- [38:51]
Mary Ellen Matthews
You guys know that?
- [38:52]
Derek Fazbender
Oh, yeah, of course, the electric guitars.
- [38:54]
Mary Ellen Matthews
It's funny, my kids on my crew or the interns are like, no idea what you're talking about. Like, they don't know what that is. You know, it's back in the day. But anyway, so thought like, oh my God, let's slick her hair back and let's get a flying. Like the second time of bringing up a flying V. But you know, just
- [39:09]
Podcast Announcer
the prop department, right, they're all playing guitars. That's right.
- [39:12]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, the flying GS.
- [39:14]
Podcast Announcer
Yeah, it's a cool looking guitar.
- [39:15]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, we found one somewhere. So hats off to these guys and girls in the prop department who can make anything happen quickly.
- [39:23]
Podcast Announcer
By the way, do you shoot behind the scenes during the week?
- [39:26]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, that's part of the job also. And that's kind of been handed off to our interns, which gives them, you know, a really good experience and fresh eyes on it. So that's their job now. So it's been cool for them to do it. And also another part of our duties is to shoot the show as episodics, we call them. There's a dress rehearsal and the live show. So our guy Will Heath in my department does that. So he shoots that part of the show. The dress rehearsal, the dress rehearsal. And sometimes the sketch will change enough that he'll have to shoot the air.
- [40:05]
Derek Fazbender
Also, Marilyn, I want to dive back into the planning and pre production. You had mentioned, you know, getting to know the guests. And is it. I love how you call them repeat offenders. That's the greatest term for this. How much of it is working with their team and how much relies upon, you know, if it is a repeat offender or let's say if it's not a repeat offender, their celebrity status, does it depend on what you know about the person or how big they are at the moment or what's going on with them at the moment, it might be somebody who recently landed a big role and came out of obscurity. How does that play in?
- [40:38]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Right, yes. So most people will bring their stylists. So I'll work with the stylist during the week. Is to say, like, what are we doing? Like the talent, What. What are they working with? What kind of mode are they in or what do they want to be wearing and. And communicating. So working with them and then adding into. Well, I have this idea. Can we find this, you know, look? And so there's a lot of working with their team. And, you know, again, I have to research someone who's new to the show or new to the world to get to know them and make sure that we're vibing.
- [41:12]
Derek Fazbender
Is the vibe easy for you? I mean, it seems like it would be easy for you going in. I mean, you're. You're a personable person, and I think for somebody to thrive. Of course, I could see that even just from the imagery you create and everything I've seen and read and your online presence, it seems like it would be pretty easy. Am I wrong? Is it not? Do you. Do you feel like it's harder for you, or. I feel like you can get by in circumstances and situations with people who. Most people would be completely shut down.
- [41:41]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I try. I try. Like I said, that's the other part of the job. The other set of skills is to lead a shoot and keep it rolling. You know, have everybody needs be met and have a good time and make sure everybody's comfortable and don't want to stress anybody out. I try to make it fun, and I really love what I do, so there's that. But I'm very respectful of people's time and don't want to, again, like, stress anyone out and, you know, have them overthink anything.
- [42:11]
Podcast Announcer
By the way, do you have shoots with the musical guests as well?
- [42:15]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, that's Thursday also. That's later in the afternoon while we're doing the shoot for the host, the musical guest is rehearsing and blocking and getting their performances down. So we're hearing that, which is amazing to, you know, be in this space and.
- [42:29]
Podcast Announcer
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [42:31]
Derek Fazbender
Do you have. Is there a general workflow that you follow, whether it relates to getting people comfortable or just conducting the shoot in general?
- [42:39]
Mary Ellen Matthews
You know, the day starts, we set up everything, we test the light, and we, you know, if there's a particular concept that needs a different lighting scheme that will test that and run through all the looks. So that's a lot on my team. You know, texts the day before, like, this is what I want to do. Maybe it's an old Hollywood lighting, but, you know, we kind of have to prepare for that and, you know, nail that before anybody comes onto the set, just so we know what we're doing and it's all locked in. And then I'll meet with whomever the host is and go over the concepts and see if they like these ideas, and talk to the hair and makeup team and make sure whatever the look is is dialed in and that we're all on the same page. And go through all the costumes or just whatever they're wearing, and then we dive in.
- [43:27]
Derek Fazbender
And for post production, I mean, you have a great team, but how involved are you in selecting the images?
- [43:34]
Mary Ellen Matthews
It's just me. Yeah. So. Well, it's only me. So I'll have to start editing either that night or first thing in the morning. Just start going through and picking whatever it is to start working on. You know, start doing all the post and the color and whatever else needs to happen. And then work with my guy Alex, who I do the video with, and we start editing down all that stuff. And that goes in the front of the show, which is in the montage in the title sequence. So do that and then start on the social stuff.
- [44:04]
Derek Fazbender
That's awesome.
- [44:05]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I mean, it's like, it's crazy for Friday and Saturday. It's pretty intense. Couple days, definitely.
- [44:12]
Derek Fazbender
But having that control over the creative vision, it's like. I think sometimes we think with the. The big productions, it's like, okay, everything just goes off and there's somebody dedicated to that. And I love when an artist has control over which images being chosen, what
- [44:27]
Mary Ellen Matthews
the final look is going to be. I don't really get involved with the talent to edit through stuff unless there's a big request to do so. Right. Try not to get them involved in that because then they're going to start overthinking it and they've got enough to
- [44:40]
Derek Fazbender
do that makes perfect sense. And I think with snl, it's like they're not working with an unproven commodity. It's a very known. And I think your name, you stand on your own name and you're trusted. There's a certain level of trust there, right?
- [44:53]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I hope so. Yeah. Some people request to see the images before they go on air, most don't. But if they want to see them, you know, of course that's. That's their right. So make sure that everyone's happy before it goes to air.
- [45:08]
Derek Fazbender
What advice do you have for the younger generation of people who are aspiring to be an intern, an assistant, or following your footsteps?
- [45:17]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I think having your own vision, your own, again, like I keep saying, visual voice. I don't know why I'm saying that. But, you know, your own vision and what you can bring to the table, that's number One. And the second thing I always say is to try to work with as many different photographers as possible to assist people so you can see different ways of working. Not just a couple, but, you know, try to see what so many people are doing differently so you can get a whole vast set of skills.
- [45:47]
Derek Fosbinder
Yeah.
- [45:47]
Derek Fazbender
And it's like, I threw it out there for the beginners, but now that I think about it, it's like we're all constantly learning and changing. I'm sure you've seen a huge change.
- [45:55]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah. But also, like, there's so many things that I want to try differently. And, you know, you kind of get set in your ways, especially with this gig like that. I can't really do much else than what I'm doing, but I'd like to try. I'd like to try to find another way to do it.
- [46:11]
Derek Fazbender
Do you do personal projects at all?
- [46:13]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, that's what I was saying. I want to get that 4x5 the mayonnaise jar.
- [46:18]
Derek Fazbender
I'm like, wait, was the mayonnaise jar. Are we really doing this for real still lives?
- [46:22]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yeah, I kind of want to just do very composed still lives. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm sure everybody has this issue, like, you know, you want us to have this time to do something like this, but life gets in the way and other jobs get in the way. I just got booked on Sunday for Sunday, so my attention's on that right now. But this is what we do. We love it.
- [46:41]
Derek Fazbender
Yeah, I was going to ask about that. Is this, you know, either contractually or time wise, does this take up all of your time? I know there's got to be some time. How much downtime do you have or how much time for other projects?
- [46:54]
Mary Ellen Matthews
You know, we have weeks on and weeks off, but, you know, this past year was particularly busy because of the 50th, so we were kind of all in for all season for this. So I didn't really have much time to do any other stuff. And plus the book and the promotion and everything else. And then this summer we're on hiatus, so we do have some time, but other things are popping up, which is great. We all need to work and work with new and interesting people and different projects. And like I was saying, to go out there and do other things, to bring it back to what your primary job is, for me is a good thing.
- [47:26]
Derek Fazbender
Totally.
- [47:26]
Podcast Announcer
And by the way, how long do the interns stay at snl? Are they there for the year?
- [47:32]
Mary Ellen Matthews
We used to have each half of the year so September to December, and then we'd have a new crew from January to May. But now they're full time, which is great because, you know, you become tight with them and it's nice to have them there all year.
- [47:45]
Podcast Announcer
And how does one apply?
- [47:47]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I think that there is something through NBC. That's a good question. I'm not sure, but that's an important question I don't know the answer to exactly because my guy Will Heath takes care of hiring these guys. So I can find out because people would love to know.
- [48:06]
Jill Waterman
Would it be similar to, like, the NBC page program?
- [48:10]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I think so. I think through NBC you do it. I'm pretty sure, but if anybody really wants to know, I'm sure we could figure that out.
- [48:17]
Podcast Announcer
Okay, Put in the show notes.
- [48:20]
Derek Fazbender
What do you have in the pipeline? Any exhibits, projects, anything that you have coming up.
- [48:26]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I'm going to be doing more press on the book, for sure. I've got a couple book signings coming up, I think, working one in la. And I've got a couple jobs lined up right now, so my head's around that. And then I got to get to that mayonnaise job.
- [48:40]
Derek Fazbender
I've never looked forward to it. A photo more than the mayonnaise jar.
- [48:43]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I know, I know. But I'm gonna come in and see you guys, so maybe we can all meet in person.
- [48:49]
Jill Waterman
Yeah, that would be great.
- [48:51]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Love that. I'll bring you guys a book. We're talking about that in the break. I'd love to get you guys to see.
- [48:55]
Podcast Announcer
Oh, yeah. I think we need three books, right? Yeah. But speaking of the book, when did the idea for the book come into your mind? Or was that a long time coming or.
- [49:06]
Mary Ellen Matthews
I think like a bunch of years ago. I knew, like, I really wanted to do that and people were asking, so I think that kind of put it in the brain more. And then the 50th anniversary, there was just so much excitement around that. I just thought, well, then here's a good way to celebrate even more to add to the celebration. It was a lot of fun and I had an amazing team. I had Pentagram design it. I've worked with Emily Oberman and her team for years on the title. So it just was a perfect fit. And they're just the best in the biz. So that was amazing thing. And then my friend Alison Castle helped write it and curate it with me.
- [49:42]
Derek Fazbender
It looks great. For me, a book is it A book is everything having that tangible product, it's easy. It's like wall art is great.
- [49:50]
Mary Ellen Matthews
But a book. It's like, I know. I am a book crazy person. I'm just looking at my table. I've got tons and tons and tons of coffee table books. They're exactly what you're saying. It's in your lap. You're looking at it. You get to stare at it. And I remember that as a kid looking at all the time life photo books leave like, where is this? I mean, that happened and there's a photo of it.
- [50:11]
Derek Fazbender
And now you're. You have something.
- [50:14]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Yes.
- [50:14]
Derek Fazbender
That you know. And it lives on. It lives on. It's passed down. I look, it's same thing. It's like growing up. Well, Marianne, this was such a great conversation. You could feel the energy and your images. It's every bit you coming through in the images.
- [50:27]
Mary Ellen Matthews
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, what a fun conversation. And I really appreciate you. You guys just chit chatting.
- [50:32]
Derek Fazbender
Yes, we appreciate having you on as well.
- [50:35]
Derek Fosbinder
So thanks so much for joining us today. If you are a fan of the show but are not yet a subscriber, head on over to Apple podcasts, Spotify, B H's YouTube channel, or wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. You can also find us on the Explorer blog where we post photos from our guests along with our show notes. I'm your host, Derek Fosbender. Jill Waterman is our creative producer. This encore episode was edited by technical producer Peter Maziarz and our executive producer is Dana Glidden. On behalf of us all, thank you
- [51:06]
Podcast Announcer
so much for tuning in today.