The Ethics of Wildlife Photography with Melissa Groo & Bobby Stormer

Summary

Podcast Summary: B&H Photography Podcast

Episode: The Ethics of Wildlife Photography with Melissa Groo & Bobby Stormer
Date: February 26, 2026
Host: Derek Fassbender
Guests: Melissa Groo (wildlife/conservation photographer); Bobby Stormer (wildlife photographer, rehabilitator)

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep dive into the ethics of wildlife photography, with a special focus on the responsibilities and dilemmas faced by photographers in the field. Host Derek Fassbender and team are joined by Melissa Groo, a leading voice in conservation photography, and Bobby Stormer, whose work fuses hands-on animal welfare with photography. Together, they examine the differences between wildlife and conservation photography, discuss how to handle animal encounters (especially those involving injury or distress), unpack controversial practices (like baiting and location sharing), and provide guidance for aspiring professionals.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Defining Conservation vs. Wildlife Photography

[04:16-05:25]

• Melissa Groo: A wildlife photographer documents animals in their habitats. A conservation photographer aims to create images that drive actual change, getting photos "in the hands and before the eyes of people who can really make that change." The impact of an image after it’s made is as important as its creation.

"A lot of it is about what happens after you press that shutter."
— Melissa Groo [04:16]

2. Guest Backgrounds

[05:25-16:01]

• Melissa: Urban upbringing, career pivot after working in elephant research; started photography as a hobby, then “everything exploded” after discovering macro and bird photography.
• Bobby: Began with drawing and painting before shifting to photography later in life. Discovered his passion for wildlife photography after helping local foxes with mange and realizing “there’s this whole world right around us, and you just have to pay attention.”

3. The Importance of Empathy and Observation

[09:22-12:12]

• Sound is crucial: Melissa relies on listening to animal communication (calls, warning cries), guided by her background in bioacoustics.
• Embeddedness in the ecosystem: “You just have to become a part of the landscape... within this community of other beings whose voices and messages are as filled with meaning as ours are.”

— Melissa Groo [11:54]

4. Direct Animal Rescue Experiences

[16:46-19:24]

• Bobby: Recalls rescuing a fox family after the mother was hit by a car, emphasizing you can help if you know who to contact (animal control, rehabbers). Encourages people to seek local resources.

5. When & How to Intervene

[20:37-22:18]

• Melissa: Draws a line between natural cycles and human-caused harm:
  • Will intervene if harm is caused by human actions (e.g., fishing line injuries).
  • Does not interfere with natural predation or cycles.

“If it's something that wasn't directly or indirectly caused by humans... that's the cycle of life and death and natural predator prey interactions and that kind of thing, I don't interfere.”
— Melissa Groo [20:37]

6. Common Ethical Mistakes

[23:32-29:34]

• Sharing sensitive locations online (especially for rare/at-risk species like owls) brings crowds and can have harmful effects.
• Baiting or feeding wild animals for photo ops can habituate them and lead to “a fed fox/bear is a dead fox/bear.”
• Pressure on nesting animals, use of call playback (audio lures), and staging of shots: Expend energy and disrupt natural behaviors.
• Lack of species knowledge: Many enthusiasts enter the field “armed with their camera, they're excited... but do not understand the slightest thing about what they're photographing.”

7. Social Media & Perpetuating False Realities

[34:40-41:05]

• Social media’s demand for dramatic shots leads to unethical practices, misrepresentations, and discouragement among newcomers.
• Ethical clues: Overabundance of “perfect” action or close-up shots, especially of elusive species, is often a sign of heavy staging, baiting, or use of captive animals.

8. The Dark Side: Game Farms & Staged Wildlife Shots

[41:05-44:31]

• Game farms keep wild animals in dreadful conditions for staged photography sessions, a practice heavily criticized by Melissa:
  • Animals are “trotted out to perform for their trainers.”
  • Photos are often shared without disclosure of captive origin.
  • Rolling Stone exposé recommended for further reading.

9. Gear Talk: Tools for Ethical Wildlife Photography

[46:45-56:15]

• Melissa: Sony Alpha line (A1 II, A9 III, A7V); uses long lenses (600mm, 300mm) and teleconverters to keep distance, ground pod for low-angle shots, and emphasizes the importance of binoculars.
• Bobby: Also Sony (A1 II, 400mm 2.8), prefers environmental shots and crops images when needed, values nimble/handheld setups for mammals. Both use the Merlin bird ID app.

10. Best Camera Settings & Techniques

[56:15-62:39]

• Both prefer manual control (manual mode + auto ISO for Bobby; full manual for Melissa).
• Shutter speed is all-important—recommendation to shoot higher than you think necessary, especially for birds or action.
• Pre-capture/buffer features praised for catching split-second moments.
• Advice to experiment beyond wide open: include habitat (F8-F11) for more compelling storytelling images.

11. Staging, Storytelling, and Social Responsibility

[63:38-70:59]

• Melissa warns of “trophy hunting” mindset for images.
• Calls for a reframing—photographers as storytellers with a conservation mission.
• Discusses how to determine if zoos/sanctuaries are ethical: Avoid places allowing direct animal contact, breeding not linked to conservation plans, or those buying/selling animals.

12. Wildlife Rehabilitation Licensing

[71:16-74:36]

• Bobby: Explains that rehab licensing is labor-intensive and poorly funded, yet strict to ensure animal welfare—contrasts with lax regulation of for-profit “sanctuaries.”

13. Pandemic’s Impact on Wildlife Photography

[75:18-79:28]

• Pandemic created “license to pay attention on a local level.”
• Technology like ring cameras increased awareness of urban wildlife.
• Animals frequently increased activity as human presence diminished.

14. Ethical Remote Camera/Trail Cam Use

[79:29-81:43]

• Camera traps can be disruptive if not used carefully.
• Luring animals with food/scent is common (especially in hunting) but fraught.
• Avoiding critical sites (e.g., den entrances), providing animal detour paths, and minimizing interference are important.

15. Taking Conservation to the Next Level

[82:07-85:37]

• Go local: Tell stories rooted in authenticity and respect for wild animals.
• Share process and lessons on social media, inspire and educate others.

“The more we can show the beauty of this world, the better off our future is going to be overall...”
— Bobby Stormer [84:43]

16. Advice for Aspiring Conservation Photographers

[85:50-93:22]

• Bobby: Get into it for the right reasons; prioritize respect for animals over images/likes; patience is key.
• Melissa: Versatility is essential—combine teaching, writing, speaking, and networking. Guard your reputation—don’t take ethical shortcuts for the sake of a shot.

“Only do things that you would feel comfortable putting in the caption.”
— Melissa Groo [91:43]

• Both warn that unethical “guiding” creates a ripple effect of poor practices.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A fed fox is a dead fox, a fed bear is a dead bear.” — Melissa Groo [34:09]
• On social media staged shots:
  “They present this fantasy...these impossible shots...And then they put them on social media and they don’t divulge they’re captive.” — Melissa Groo [41:05]
• “There’s this whole world right around us, and you really just have to pay attention.” — Bobby Stormer [14:40]
• “If it’s something that wasn’t directly or indirectly caused by humans...that’s the cycle of life and death...I don’t interfere.” — Melissa Groo [20:37]
• “We have so much power over wild animals and they have so few places left on Earth. How do we go into their habitat knowing that?”—Melissa Groo [81:24]
• “Let’s try to think about doing this as a way to honor nature and celebrate it and...follow that principle in the medical profession of first do no harm.” — Melissa Groo [63:38]
• “If you’re not comfortable putting something in the caption about how you got a shot, that’s a good sign that maybe it’s not something you want to engage in again.” — Melissa Groo [91:43]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Defining conservation photography: [04:16]
• Melissa’s path from researcher to photographer: [05:46]
• Bobby’s backstory, fox rescue: [12:42], [16:54]
• Empathy, listening as a skill: [09:22]
• Ethical intervention in animal harm: [20:37]
• Common ethical errors & location sharing: [23:32]
• Baiting & staged wildlife photos, game farms: [34:40], [41:05]
• Gear talk (Sony kits, lens choices): [46:45–56:15]
• Camera settings for wildlife: [56:15]
• Regulations, game farms, and bad sanctuaries: [66:16]
• Wildlife rehab licensing: [71:16]
• Pandemic’s impact: [75:18]
• Ethical use of remote cameras: [79:29]
• Calling for local, authentic storytelling: [82:07]
• Advice for aspiring pros: [85:50]
• Upcoming projects and resources: [93:32], [95:50]

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Resources Mentioned

• Animal Help Now App: For finding wildlife rehabbers by location.
• Merlin Bird ID App: Bird identification by sound or photo.
• Rolling Stone Exposé: “Rolling Stone Photography Game Farms” [41:05, 44:31]
• National Audubon Society Ethics Guide: Online resource for ethical bird photography [94:40]
• Certification Bodies: American Sanctuary Association; Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries

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Final Thoughts

Both guests emphasize the power—and peril—of wildlife photography. Increasing accessibility brings both opportunity and responsibility. The episode provides not only a framework for field ethics, but a strong call to action: that every photographer, from hobbyist to professional, can be a model for respectful, impactful, and honest engagement with wild animals—and by extension, with the conservation movement as a whole.

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Transcript

[Leica Sponsor]

This week's episode is sponsored by Leica.

[Mike Weinstein]

You're listening to the B and H photography podcast. For 50 years, B& H has been the professional source for photography, video, audio and more. For your favorite gear, news and reviews, Visit [e-mail] or download the B and H app to your iPhone or Android device. Now here's your host, Derek Fassbender.

[Derek Fassbender]

Welcome listeners. I'm Derek Fassbender, host of the BH Photography Podcast.

[Jill Waterman]

And I'm Jill Waterman, the podcast Senior Creative producer.

[Mike Weinstein]

And I'm Mike Weinstein, the show's technical producer and audio engineer.

[Derek Fassbender]

While its origin is murky, the adage Take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but footprints, kill nothing but time is at the heart of today's discussion about ethical practices in wildlife photography. From exotic safaris to local birding expeditions, interest in this subject matter has grown tremendously in recent years. Ever advancing camera technologies and increasing ease of use make stunning pictures more accessible than ever. But when these advantages combine with an unbridled enthusiasm for getting the shot, it can often put wildlife at risk. Joining us for this important discussion about placing the welfare of animals first are wildlife and conservation photography specialists Melissa Gru and Bobby Stormer. Here's some background on each of them. Melissa Grew is a photographer, writer and conservationist dedicated to telling stories of the natural world. As a leading voice and consultant on ethics and wildlife photography, it's her mission to inspire conservation of the animals she's privileged to witness and the habitat crucial to their survival. A Sony artisan of imagery since 2024, Melissa also serves as an Associate Fellow with the International League of Conservation Photographers, an advisor to the National Audubon Society, and a contributing editor for Audubon magazine. In 2023, Melissa received the JN Ding Darling memorial Award for Wildlife Stewardship through Art from the wildlife society. In 2017, she received Nanpa's Vision Award in recognition of early career excellence, vision and inspiration to others in nature photography, conservation and education. Her award winning fine art prints are widely exhibited and featured in both personal and corporate collections. Additionally, Melissa has served as a juror for numerous competitions from the Audubon Photography Awards to Wildlife Photographer of the Year and beyond. As an ambassador for Project Coyote, Melissa is equally invested in the importance of carnivores in our landscapes, continually advocating for coexistence with and appreciation of these animals. She also serves on the Advisory Council for Wyoming Untracked, the Board of Directors for the Little Egg foundation, and is a volunteer photographer at the Cornell Wildlife Hospital near her home in Ithaca, New York. Bobby Stormer first picked up a camera in 2010, transitioning from traditional art to photography as a new creative outlet. Born and raised just outside New York City, his early work focused on urban exploration and automotive shoots. But everything changed six years ago when he took a deep dive into wildlife photography. Shaped by both cityscapes and suburban ecosystems, Bobby developed a unique approach to capturing local wildlife, from foxes and owls to black bears, often within minutes of home. His mission is to show others the beauty hidden in their own backyards and foster a sense of coexistence with the wild. But what truly sets Bobby apart is his hands on commitment to animal welfare. Apart from the image making, he's helped rescue and rehabilitate hundreds of animals. For Bobby, the photo is just a keepsake. His real reward is the moment itself, while letting empathy and respect guide his every frame. Melissa Gru and Bobby Stormer, welcome to the show.

[Melissa Grew]

Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here, Derek.

[Bobby Stormer]

I agree. Thanks so much. Really excited to talk about ethical wildlife photography with everybody.

[Derek Fassbender]

We're excited too, I think, because we hear wildlife photography all the time, and it's probably a good place to start, is drawing that line between wildlife photographer and conservation photographer. For those listeners out there who aren't sure about the distinction between the two, can you talk about how the term conservation photographer is defined and what this entails?

[Melissa Grew]

I guess I would start out by saying that at its most basic, wildlife photographer documents animals and nature in their natural habitats. And conservation photography in general is really about creating images that might affect conservation change and then ensuring that those images do actually create that change. So a lot of it is about what happens after you press that shutter. You know, what do you do with those photos to get them in the hands and before the eyes of the people who can really make that change interesting?

[Derek Fassbender]

So it's less to do with the actual act of taking the photo, and it's once you take the photo, what do you do with it? What is the change that is affected by the photos that you took?

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah, and that's not to minimize the actual photo itself. And there's a lot of different considerations to a conservation photo that has the necessary message that tells that story, that's gonna have that impact. And a lot goes into that. But equally as important is what happens to that photo after it's made.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now, Melissa, you grew up in the city, not exactly what most would think of as a wildlife haven, but there was an encounter with whales that prompted you to shift your career and move over to wildlife. Starting As a research assistant, did you have any interest or knowledge of photography at that point? How did you really get into the photography aspect of it?

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah, I came from a very different background than the one I live in now, very urban existence. Grew up in Manhattan and worked in a lot of different fields before I came to the field of actually elephant research. Research and studying the communication of elephants in Africa. And during that time, I was not a photographer at all, but I worked a lot capturing video. And the scientist that I worked for, Katie Payne, she entrusted me with predicting and capturing stories as they unfolded. And so I think it was really there that I sort of began to think about things like framing and storytelling. But it was wasn't until about 2005, 2006, that I began to get interested in photography. And at first just taking pictures of my child. And then in 2008, I took a basic digital photography course at a local community college. And that's when everything just sort of exploded for me. So that really came after all of that animal research. But I think that really helpfully informed my photography in a lot of valuable ways.

[Derek Fassbender]

Did you initially have the thought in mind that I'm going to take my animal research and use the photography for that purpose, or was it more of the reverse where it's okay, I have all this knowledge of animals and behavioral stuff, I'm going to use that knowledge to make myself a better wildlife photographer?

[Melissa Grew]

Definitely the latter. You know, there wasn't anything really terribly purposeful about my going into photography. I was just seeing it as a hobby. And at first I was really into macro photography and sort of examining the intricate little worlds of plants and insects and using a macro lens. And then I sort of discovered bird photography and wildlife photography in about 2010. And that's when it just exploded for me in terms of my interest in my obsession. And I really realized that everything that I had learned when I was studying animals, I could really bring to bear on capturing better photos. You know, this sort of intimate knowledge about animal nature and that every animal is an individual and that animals can be predictable at times. They have habits, they have preferences, and that you can actually be ready with your camera in your settings if you understand that species, or even within that species, an individual. And also this incredible sense of empathy and having. Seeing the challenges that animals have and understanding how incredibly complex and social many of them are. You know, I think it was really this sense of empathy and an identification almost with my subjects that helped me to come out with photos that I felt really struck at the heart of what I wanted to capture.

[Derek Fassbender]

And when we talk about, you know, this idea of understanding the behavior and this. Even this empathy where you have a genuine care for your subjects. Part of what works into all this is your early work with the center for Conservation Bioacoustics, which emphasizes the importance of sound and listening. Can you talk about how the audio aspect, the sound, the listening plays in to your photographing wildlife?

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah. Such a great question. I feel like our sense of hearing as wildlife photographers is incredibly important and can be so beneficial to finding subjects, to reading their behavior, their wonderful cues, using their communication. For instance, like in spring, I'll be driving through the forest next to my house, and I have the window down, and sometimes I'll stop the car, turn the engine off. And I'm just so acutely listening. My ears are more important than my eyes because I'm trying to determine, okay, who's returned for the spring, what warblers are back, are they singing like they're on territory? And that may actually guide me to get out of my car and go try to seek them and sort of unobtrusively put myself in the landscape to try to get a photo. And then I've also used calls of animals to direct me to make finds of other species. For instance, driving along in a forest hearing crows and blue jays making alarm calls. I've discovered owls that way because they don't put up with owls very well. And so they'll make a big hubbub about the presence of the owls. And so that can be a really valuable way to find special subjects, because I worked on elephant sound and I'm obsessed with music. It's elemental to my success as a photographer in order to find subjects and to really meaningfully be with them.

[Derek Fassbender]

See, I knew you were superhuman. We weren't far off. But seriously, though, as you're talking, I'm sitting here taking all this in, and I'm like, well, that sounds very much like the subject matter that you're capturing, because that's how a lot of animals communicate. When we think of animals, you know, you do have a lot of animals that have that sight, you know, like certain birds, where it's like, okay, they can see 47 miles. Wonderful.

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah.

[Derek Fassbender]

A lot of animals function off of sound, and that's how they operate off that, the vibration. And there is such an interesting study to sound. So it sounds almost like you are completely embedded to the point of not just understanding the subject matter, but you're almost wrapping your skill set around theirs to not just appreciate it, but you're utilizing the same types of sounds and vibrational. I don't even know what word to use. You're utilizing exactly what your subject matter is using to capture them better.

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah, you described that really well. For sure, you just have to become a part of the landscape and sort of feel yourself within this community of other beings whose voices and whose messages are as filled with meaning as ours are. But we really have yet to tap into it.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now, Bobby, your story sounds pretty similar. It's not like you had a background in photography and you were born with a camera and got right into it. Growing up right outside the city. Again, wildlife photographers, everyone thinks it's like, oh, they're born in the wild. It's this thing where we were in the mountains and in the forest from the age of three. Born outside the city, more traditional artist up until fairly recently. But I want to know what was the art background and when did photography pick your interest?

[Bobby Stormer]

So throughout, like elementary school, middle school, I was very into drawing, sketching, painting, stuff of that nature. Then as I grew up, you know, your priorities shift and whatnot. I think I was a senior in high school and I borrowed a camera from a friend and I went out and I took photos of the New York City skyline. And I kind of just fell in love with it. It was just like my new form of like expressing my art to other people over time. I did a bunch of things in between, as mentioned, like automotive, urban exploring. I've done freelance work, weddings, all sorts of stuff. I still do a stuff like that. And then about six years ago I got into wildlife and as you said, like, people think you have to be out in the middle of the woods to be around this stuff. But I quickly realized that you did not have to be at all. And at the time I just knew traveling the world wasn't on my radar. I have a three year old son, dogs, just life work, whatnot. So I just started exploring right in my backyard. It actually started initially from my dogs. You know, you grow up, you move out. I rescued two dogs and that kind of opened up my eyes a little more to my deep passion for animals. At the time I wasn't taking a lot of photos. I was working in the telecommunications industry, so I used to climb cell towers for a living. I used to wake up at like 5 in the morning to go to work and I started seeing these foxes. I lived along this river in Bergen County, New Jersey, literally right outside New York City. And I started seeing these foxes and I thought it was Just so cool. I didn't know much about them, so I started researching them a little bit. And then one day I took a picture of one with the 70 to 200, and I realized that they were not looking as they usually were. You know, everyone thinks of foxes like big, bushy, red foxes, bushy tail, you know, beautiful animals. Except this one was missing a whole bunch of its fur. The tail was just, like, thin, hairless. The eyes were all messed up. So then next thing I know, I'm on Google, like, researching what could be wrong with this fox and whatnot. And then. And I found out it was mange, which is the same skin disease that your dogs, your cats, a lot of different animals can get. And then I contacted our local rehabber. They kind of walked me through how I could treat the fox. They sent me the medicine and all that, which is like a whole nother story in itself. But next thing I know, I'm out there. I'm setting up like a trail camera. I'm trying to get the medicine to these foxes and everything. And then I just started taking pictures along the way. And then I just became obsessed with it. And next thing I know, I'm looking for owls and hawks and all these different animals. And I just realized there's this whole world right around us, and you really just have to pay attention again, like, people think you have to travel the world to see this stuff, but we literally have it right here in our backyards.

[Melissa Grew]

So true. But I did just want to point out, you know, and I really admire Bobby for what he's doing with animals stricken by mange, because it's a huge problem, and it is definitely connected to humans and our practices, particularly the use of rodenticide, rat bait that people put out, which is deadly for so many different animals.

[Bobby Stormer]

Yeah, it's really, really bad.

[Melissa Grew]

So I just wanted to say I think that is really behind the cause of a lot of the mange situations. Not all, I'm sure, but I applaud Bobby for that.

[Bobby Stormer]

Thank you. Yeah, mange is technically a natural disease that can happen, But I've seen a higher concentration in these suburban and urban areas, and it's all linked back to rotusticides, pesticides, contaminated water. Adam. Animals eating garbage and all that kind of stuff. The toxins begin to build up in their system, and it begins to attack their immune system. And then they're usually able to fight off these different kinds of diseases, but now that they have a weakened immune system, common disease like mange can easily take over. And then the Terrible part is it's so easily treatable with the proper medicine and the proper help, and a lot of people just don't know it. And then there's some organizations that just don't want to help. So it's a very complicated thing.

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah.

[Derek Fassbender]

Both of you are known for helping animals in need when you've come across them while out photographing. Are there any encounters that stand out for either of you?

[Bobby Stormer]

For sure, I've had a couple. One that first comes to my mind, I think about three years ago, I got a call about a fox that got hit by a car. And unfortunately, it was very early in the spring, so she had young kits that couldn't survive on their own. So I went over there, and then luckily, an animal control officer was able to take the mom and she actually survived, which is usually not the case for animals that are hit by cars. But my job was to trap the kits. So I was able to trap all five of the kits, and then I brought them to a rehabber that I work with called the Last Resort Wildlife Refugee. So they take in the animals and then she does the rehab work and all that, which could go on for months, sometimes years. And then I was fortunate enough to also go back and we got to release all five of the kits and the mom all together right back to where they were rescued from. So it just kind of hit me deeply that I was able to help to that extent. And a lot of people don't realize that you can help these animals. You just have to look up different rehabbers in your area, know your animal control officers, and there are ways to help the animals that are in need.

[Mike Weinstein]

Bobby, did you say you were able to capture the kids?

[Bobby Stormer]

Kits.

[Mike Weinstein]

Kits.

[Bobby Stormer]

So baby foxes, yeah. Overseas they tend to call them cubs. In North America, we tend to call them kits.

[Mike Weinstein]

And you were able to successfully trap them?

[Bobby Stormer]

Yeah, I have. Have a heart traps, and then I just bring food, and then the first two run right in the traps, and then the other ones are like, oh, this is kind of weird. Like, I don't really want to go in this trap. So I ended up spending like a whole day there, but I was able to get all of them. And then the mom was already at the hospital. They thought she was dead at first, but she was actually alive. And then very surprising that she pulled through and she was able to get released back into the wild, which is usually not the case. The kits still would have been able to, but it's. The rehab process is a little different because they have to kind of teach them how to hunt and how to survive. So that's like a whole thing in itself. And then they always get released back to where they were found. So it's like their home base.

[Mike Weinstein]

And just to get a sense for where you are relative to like New York City, midtown, Like, how many miles away are you?

[Bobby Stormer]

I can get to George Washington Bridge in less than 10 minutes.

[Mike Weinstein]

Yeah.

[Bobby Stormer]

So I'm right there. Yeah. And I realistically, I go into the city to photograph wildlife too. People don't realize there's plenty of animals in the city. Like, you go to Central park, you can see coyotes, you can see owls, raccoons, all sorts of stuff. I've seen barred owls, great horned owls. Coyotes.

[Mike Weinstein]

Did not know about the coyotes, huh?

[Bobby Stormer]

Yeah, it's a big thing. There's a pair of them that live in the city now. Two of my friends have been photographing them a lot and they've been like in the Times and some different magazines, but they're called Romeo and Juliet. I think Juliet's been in there for like almost six or seven years. They have not successfully raised a litter, but hopefully this is the year. So really cool. People don't realize, but the animals are adapting to us and the little bit of land that we have left behind and they're moving in. And the more you pay attention, the more you see.

[Derek Fassbender]

So interesting. Now this conversation about, like you described, Bobby, with encountering animals in need opens up the conversation to a much bigger topic. The ethics of photographing wildlife and the ethics behind. You know, if I came across an animal that was in need, I wouldn't know the first thing to do. I wouldn't know who to call. Obviously, with you guys being more knowledgeable on this subject, can you go over some of the ethical considerations for when you encounter something, the steps that you're taking? Are there certain situations where, you know, that is something that you can have more involvement with or less involvement?

[Melissa Grew]

I think for me, there's sort of a line between human caused problems for animals versus sort of natural situations. I don't really like to interfere if it's something that wasn't directly or indirectly caused by humans, that is, you know, I'm not going to necessarily go try to save something from a predator if it's sort of that natural predator prey situation. But if, for instance, there's been several times where I've been out shooting where I've seen a bird like a gull or a pelican that's been impaled by a fishing hook or it's trapped in fishing lines. And at that point I feel it's absolutely my responsibility to get help for that animal. And I am just single focused on that. And there's a wonderful app now that people should know about that's free called Animal Help now. And you can get that on your phone and you can very quickly look up rehabbers for your area wherever you live in the US So I do feel because we've lost so much wildlife, because populations of birds, about 67% of all bird species in decline, we need to be able to help where we can. And I do feel that's sort of our moral responsibility. But again, I sort of draw the line at, you know, if it's something that's sort of naturally occurring, that's sort of the cycle of life and death and natural predator prey interactions and that kind of thing, I don't interfere. Does that make sense?

[Derek Fassbender]

Yeah, that sounds like a pretty logical line to draw. You're not interfering with the natural cycle of nature.

[Melissa Grew]

Right.

[Derek Fassbender]

If we've created an obstruction to their natural habitat, that's one thing, but if they're out there, you know, the cheetah's gonna chase down the prey. It's just the nature of the beast.

[Mike Weinstein]

Maybe internally you're gonna root for the more anthropomorphic animal, but that's a mental thing. You don't want to act on those instincts.

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now, I think with this conversation and being that there are so many people that are aware of wildlife photography, it's such a popular genre now, but there might be a lot of things that people don't consider that are harming our natural environments, are harming these animals or at least putting them in harm's way. Can we talk about some of the mistakes that people are making that they might even not realize that they're crossing an ethical line? Obviously, the one thing that jumps out to everyone is feeding animals or luring animals with food for a photo op. That's kind of an obvious no, no, I, I would think to most people with a brain. But there anything that you guys have come across or anything that is known in the conservation photography genre, that is something regular people are doing who might not be as steeped in it as you guys, that is presenting the danger or harm.

[Bobby Stormer]

So I mean, there's a lot of different things one could say. I mean, Melissa says that just us being there could potentially cause animals to act differently, but I think there's limits to it. Like sharing locations shouldn't be be going on. Like people are publicly Sharing locations of, like, sensitive owl species. And then next thing you know, you have 50 people all lined up watching an owl. And to me, without a doubt, that's going to cause the owl to act differently. Maybe they're not going to go out and hunt. Maybe they're just going to sit in the tree and wait. And then obviously, as you mentioned, the bai feeding, it's very common in certain areas, some more than others. But, you know, forcing an animal to come out to grab food just for your photos, to me, is just completely ethically wrong. Because when you're not there, now the animal is used to you feeding them, and then they become dependent on you, and now you're not there. Or maybe, you know, you're a guide and you go out of business and you're no longer doing it, and now you have all these owls that are used to you baiting them, and then you just disappear. And now they're not staying up with their hunting practices and stuff like that.

[Melissa Grew]

We're going to get into talking about baiting and stuff later on. And I do have stuff to say about that. But in terms of other things, I think putting too much pressure on nesting or denning animals, like, we have to understand that animals are often in the middle of these very critical life processes, whether they're hunting actively or they're tending to young, or they're resting, or they're just trying to stay warm on a cold day. And if we approach too quickly, if we stay too long, these are all things that are going to come at a cost to the animal who's trying to flee us or is trying to engage in natural behavior, but is feeling intimidated by our presence. And so I think we just have to be very careful about that approach. Keeping our distance, using long lenses and all that, and not getting too close, understanding that every animal has its own personal space. And I think it's almost sort of incumbent on us to become naturalists in a way. Now, I think the issue is that a lot of people go into wildlife photography with no knowledge of the animal. They're armed with their camera, they're excited about getting some great shots, and that's super. But they do not understand the slightest thing about what they're photographing. And I think if we all take the time to educate ourselves a bit and sort of aim to really become naturalists in a way, there's so much information online, we can study a species before we go, spend time with it in the field. We can learn what are the signs of alarm so that we can really closely read their behavior. We can stand back a bit, gather baseline behavior, like how does this animal behave when I'm not really near it at all? And then we can make very gentle approach, go a little closer. Has its behavior changed? Has it stopped to eat? Is it just sitting there staring at me? So I think really arming ourselves with nature before we go really spend time with any animals is super important. I think we also need to be very careful about using calls. That is audio lures is a really big and contentious thing in bird photography where people, because they want to get a beautiful shot of a bird singing on a branch in spring with the blooms and all that, what they're doing is they're going and putting speakers under the perfect stage that they're setting and then using an app, they will play the sound of the particular bird that they're after that they know is in the area and that compels the bird to come to that branch seeking this perceived interloper and to just stridently call over and over, you know, marking its own territory, looking all around, expending a lot of energy, possibly leaving the nest, exposing the nest to predators. There's all these possible costs to the animal, you know, When I first started in photography, I took a workshop with a well known bird photographer and that's what he did. I participated in that. This was in New York in a park and I was exclaiming like everyone else, like, oh my God, I'm getting these amazing pictures. And I was just starting out in bird photography and something felt a little bit wrong in me, but I sort of overwrote it because I was so excited about these photos. You know, these beautiful American red starts and black throated blue warblers singing robustly from a branch with flowers on it. And now I am so sickened by those photos. I don't have them on my website, I don't use them, I don't ever license them. And I think also because birds are in such a crisis, like I think we really have to be just super conscientious about, you know, are animals here to perform for us, to expend their energy to strike the perfect pose. What I revere more than anything at this point is wildness and keeping that wildness completely pure and safe because it's the best thing for any animal to remain wild. And any act, any ethical move we make should not. I just, I don't like to compel animals to perform. It sort of goes against every bone in my body and I, I think that's One of the things that makes wildlife so magical is that sense of wildness. And so how do we preserve that? How do we take steps to ensure that we don't tame that animal that needs to be wild to stay safe?

[Mike Weinstein]

Melissa, it sounds like your consciousness was raised. Do you see that as a trend that's happening overall in wildlife photography? And how is that happening?

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah, it's heartening, I just think, because there's so many more people involved in it. Because you have more people in the field, you're going to have more people who are being thoughtful about these things, you know, as well as probably a few more people who aren't that great about really ensuring the welfare of the animal. And so there are more conversations about it than when I first started being really concerned. And I'm really heartened by that. And I think that we can all help educate each other. We're all learning together. I make mistakes all the time in the field. You know, I scare things just by being there. And so I'm always trying to think, how can I be better next time? And what can I do with the photos to use them to educate other people? And how can I share my own ethical challenges or what I've learned about what is the best approach? Because the biggest secret here is that the more kind of ethical and careful and empathic you are, the better your pictures are going to be.

[Bobby Stormer]

100%.

[Melissa Grew]

Like, that's, you know, that is like the amazing thing, because if you take steps to ensure the animal is comfortable with you, you are going to get great pictures of it engaged in natural behavior, being calm, not looking at you, going about its business. And that's where the magic lies, you know, capturing that natural behavior. And you're not going to get that if you are compelling it to do stuff, if you are getting too close, if you are somehow creating alarm in that animal. And so it's really behooves all of us because we're going to just get more time with that animal. It's not going to flee from us.

[Mike Weinstein]

That's a good point to raise the difference that you get from being sort of careful not to have this observer effect on the consciousness of the animal and to be sort of invisible versus the predictable kind of stage shots that you can get from lures and stuff like that.

[Melissa Grew]

I don't see any problem with, like, staging stuff in your yard as long as you're following best practices. Like if you use a bird feeder and you, you know, you want to take pictures of the birds at a particular bush or tree near the feeder. Because often birds will land somewhere near the feeder to sort of assess danger and stuff before they fly into the feeder. And obviously you don't really want pictures of them on your feeder because that's not so gorgeous. And so as long as we follow best practices using bird feeders, I don't see a problem with that. And what does best practices mean? It means. Means supplying the appropriate food. It means keeping the feeder clean. It means do not have your cat be outdoors. So go for it, like stage all you want if that's your thing. But when we're out there in the wild, you know, creating these situations like these baited blinds in, like, Finland and Estonia where they're putting dog food out in front of photography blinds and you can go get shots of bears and wolves and wolverines from these blinds.

[Mike Weinstein]

Oh, huh.

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah. Going to pet stores and buying domesticated mice for photos to lure in owls and other raptors. To me, it's antithetical to the idea of nature photography that you're killing this small, socially complex mammal for the sake of a nature photo. Like. Like what's wrong with us? But maybe more importantly, in terms of the preservation, the conservation of the owls, which many of them are really kind of at risk now, especially snowy owls. There's so many reasons why that could be harmful, such as introducing pathogens and parasites to the bird from these pet store mice, many of which are known to carry these things and habituating them, sucking the wildness out of them. Because predatory birds and other animals very quickly lose their fear of humans and begin to associate all humans with a handout.

[Bobby Stormer]

And you can kill the animals just by doing that. They say a fed fox is a dead fox.

[Melissa Grew]

Yes, exactly.

[Mike Weinstein]

Okay, Right, right.

[Melissa Grew]

Those are truisms. A fed fox is a dead fox, A fed bear is a dead bear. I mean, the stories are all over the web, the news stories about people feeding foxes in Yellowstone and, and bears, and then they end up having to kill them because they start approaching people in a sort of aggressive way, demanding a handout. And so we do such an incredible disservice to especially predators, carnivores by taming them with food for the sake of a photo, you know?

[Derek Fassbender]

Yeah. And I think even if you expand that beyond, like, we're obviously focusing here on wildlife photographers who are doing these things for photo ops outside of wildlife photographers, you look at how detrimental social media and just the spread of virality where it relates to locations, how many natural locations have now had to shut down and close to the public because of, hey, I want to go there for a photo op. And I think the same thing goes for wildlife where, you know, when there was the, what was it? The Mandarin duck that was in Central park. And now you're involving people who aren't just photography industry people. You're bringing in everyday Joes and Janes who are now going out there. And these are people who an ethical consideration is the furthest thing from the front of their mind where it's really just, I'm out there with an iPhone and I just want to get a video for social media and it's me, me, me, me. So I think this self righteous culture, even beyond the photographers, yes, there are a ton of photographers who are unethical, but there's just a whole group, I mean entire group of individuals who are unrelated to photography in general who are causing this issue to just exacerbate beyond control. So I think that goes back to what you were saying earlier, Melissa, and when we started the conversation today with what do we do with the images? How do you get these images out into the world? What are the best avenues to create change based on what you guys are seeing and the work that you're doing?

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, at the most fundamental level when we're sharing photos on social media, first of all, if we're photographing something sensitive, maybe wait a while to post the photos until the animal has cleared out or the kids have grown up and left the den. Especially if there's identifying markers that would tip other people off to a place and sort of create more pressure. But captioning on social media is super important for us as wildlife and conservation photographers and being honest. I think people really respect and appreciate it when we tell honest stories about how we captured something and we can be an example to others. Like talk about how you took careful consideration not to scare that animal. You know, how were you able to be successful in getting that photo? Because you took your time, because you returned to a situation and really sort of read it and were as careful and cautious and respectful as you could be. People want to hear those stories and people need models. But again, really respecting the safety of our subjects and being be really cautious about who we share locations with because words spread so quickly in the photography community and there's all these Facebook groups devoted to like owl photos or just nature photos and people wanting to, you know, be a part of that community and help other people. And so they're sharing things like locations and it only takes One person who's not very thoughtful or careful to force a fox family to leave its den because it feels too unsafe. And then it may go to another place that's less safe for it to have a den. So we just have to think about what are the repercussions going to be of sharing where I took this and really holding the welfare of the animal first in mind.

[Bobby Stormer]

I guess just to double back on everything. I feel like on the opposite side, it became this, like, false sense of reality, especially displayed on social medias. So, like, you have these guides and these people that are baiting owls or foxes or whatever, or playing animal calls, and then they post these beautiful photos. And then you have all these other people that they might just be starting out in wildlife photography. They might be struggling finding animals. They might be a good photographer, but they might not be able to find the animals. Then they follow these people on Instagram, and then it almost becomes discouraging because they can't get these kinds of photos. And then little do they know that these people are actually using bad practices to get the same photos. It's just like this false sense of reality, and it becomes very discouraging. You know, people go out and they spend thousands of dollars on camera gear, and then, like, they can't find the animals. And then they're looking at these other people's photos and they're like, you know, what's going on here? And then kind of like what you said, you know, you go out with a guide for the first time and then you find out, like, he's playing all these calls, and then it's like this wake up call. But unfortunately, not a lot of that stuff gets spread around the Internet. So I just feel like it's become this very discouraging kind of thing. I see it a lot. People struggle and then they want to give up, but then they don't realize the patience behind all this stuff. Even people that follow me on social media, you know, they're like, oh, every time you go out, you take amazing photos. And I'm like, that is not reality at all. Like, maybe one out of ten times I get good photos. Yeah, if I'm lucky, but it's all patience.

[Mike Weinstein]

Are you guys able to spot telltale signs within photographs that clue you in as to whether or not there's an ethical.

[Bobby Stormer]

A little bit, yeah. I've been able to tell a little more over time. Like if an owl is sitting there and you can tell the photo is, like, up close, because, like, you know, when you're in it for a while. You could tell like if a photo is cropped or like even down to like the focal length. Like, oh, Was this at 400? Was this at like 800? And then like, are the eyes like big, wide, like staring at you? Or if it's a snowy owl diving down into the snow, they don't really do that for no reason. Right. So sometimes they'll photoshop out the mice that they put there or something like that. So now it's just an owl diving down. But when you start to learn the behavior behaviors, you start to realize, sure, like you can witness these things with enough time in the field, but the odds are very slim. And then there's certain people that get a lot of it. So then it starts to kind of become a little more apparent. But there are people that are very good at hiding it a little bit.

[Melissa Grew]

I will say also another tell for me is if I look at someone's Instagram feed and every photo is, you know, a beautiful small bird, like a warbler, other songbird, and it's singing lustily from a perfect branch and it's very clean, like there's just nothing intervening in your clean view of that bird. And you see that over and over and over again. It's pretty likely that somebody is really staging those scenes and using audio lures. And like Bobby was saying, there's this fantasy that's presented a lot on social media. And when I was getting into photography, I started becoming really aware of all these amazing shots of like tigers running towards the camera in snow and mountain lions leaping from one boulder to another in broad daylight. And I was just like, oh my God, how are people getting these shots? Like, I want to get these shots too. Where do I go? And I began to dig into it and I learned that there were these places called photography game farms, which are captive wildlife facilities. They're like wildlife brothels. And they imprison genetically wild animals in small concrete cells. I'm talking snow leopards, wolves, mountain lions, coyotes, foxes, badgers. So many incredible animals. And they live these horrific lives of deprivation, except when they're trotted out to perform for their trainers in these natural looking settings that photographers come from all over the world to get these elusive predator shots that they can't get in the wild or they don't want to take the time. And then they put them on social media, these photos, and they don't divulge that they're captive. And so I began to be aware that the Internet was rife with these images. And, and social media. And I began to really dig into the nature of these places and did FOIA requests for documents on where these animals go, especially after the spring baby animal workshops where they'll pose the baby bobcats in the mouth of a log and crazy. You know, it's just these perfect, impossible shots that for many years, like Nat Geo Kids and Ranger Rick and all these, you know, respected magazines you used because they were just so clean and so perfect and so tough to get in the wild, right? And stock photography, I mean, every stock photography agency right now is still littered with these images. Two of the photo game farms have shut down and one is still operating in Montana and actually sued me for speaking out.

[Mike Weinstein]

Huh.

[Derek Fassbender]

Wow.

[Melissa Grew]

And I encourage everyone to Google Rolling Stone photography, Game farms or Rolling Stone, Melissa Grew. And you will find this big expose that came out at rolling stone in 24 about the reality of these places and how they permeate Instagram and what's the awful truth behind them. And it's something I've devoted many years to, to try to kind of sound the alarm on and, and to my detriment, perhaps. But the lawsuit has been settled and a documentary will be coming out soon about it.

[Mike Weinstein]

Oh, great.

[Derek Fassbender]

Wow. That is a conversation we'll definitely want to dive back into now. We'll all go take a deep breath. Perfect time to take a break, calm down from getting that last conversation. It kind of gets you all, like, even if you're not really steeped in this, it makes you angry, it makes you lose hope and, and hope that they find life on Mars. So we could move there soon. But a perfect time to stand up, stretch, shake it out, take a deep breath. If you're already standing, have a seat, relax, and when we come back, we'll shift the conversation over to a lighter topic. Yes, we'll talk some gear when we come back. And later we'll dive back into the ethical practices and photographing wildlife. Stay tuned for more with Melissa Gru and Bobby stormer.

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[Derek Fassbender]

And we are back with Melissa Guru and Bobby Stormer. Now in the first half we did talk the ethics of wildlife photography. We got a little background on you guys work. I want to dive into the backpacks and see what you guys are bringing with you on each shoot. Melissa, we know you are a Sony artisan of imagery, so Sony is obviously the gear, but what's the camera setup look like and what other accessories are you bringing along? Are these things that change based on which animals you're going out to photograph? Can you talk us through your bag?

[Melissa Grew]

So yes, I am a Sony artisan and I absolutely love my Sony gear and my main workhorse is the Sony Alpha 1 2. That's my main camera. It just has everything I need. I go on assignment for magazine stories and stuff and that's really the first camera I'm turning to. I also have the A93 which is a fantastic camera. And then I've just gotten the Sony A7V which I'm really excited about. It just has so many features that those other cameras have but you know, much lower price point. And it's got pretty big files at 33 megapixels. And the autofocus for me really is on par with the A9 III and A1 mark II. I mean it's just, just lightning fast and accurate, especially with bird eye autofocus. And it's got pre capture which is an amazing function, especially for bird photographers. And 30 frames per second in full raw. So it's just completely filled with features that I rely on. So I'm using that a lot these days and putting that to the test. I'm excited about it. For my lenses, my main lens, I have to say, is the 600F4. As a wildlife photographer, a conservation photographer, it really allows me to maintain my distance so as not to disturb my subjects. And I just love the bokeh so much, you know, it's absolutely beautiful. And it is usually attached to my 1.4 times Sony teleconverter. I also have the 2 times always at the ready and then the 200 to 600 millimeter is a. A really handy lens, very versatile, especially great for larger birds or for mammals. And so I always have that with me as well. I recently purchased the 300 millimeter F2.8, which I find a stunning lens. And it pairs really well with both teleconverters. Some of you may know my friend Mark Smith, Florida photographer, and he raves about the 300 with the 2X. So you could get 600 millimeters. And it's such a small and light lens that it's the kind of thing I can take with me on a long hike rather than the other two lenses. You know, if I bring that with a couple teleconverters in my bag, I feel like I'm ready for anything and I can just be really nimble with it. In the 70 to 200, I got actually the F4 70 to 200 millimeter. And that can be great for sort of telling a more environmental kind of story, really showing an animal in its habitat, which I think becomes more and more important. Yes, we all want those very tight shots that show the bird or other animal close up. And that's what plays really well on Instagram and everything. But more and more I'm drawn to photos that, that really show more around the animal and that habitat that's so critical to it that we can highlight and celebrate just as much as the animal. And I think that's a really useful lens for that, the 70 to 200. So those are my cameras and lenses. Other stuff in my bag, I've always got my binoculars. I think binoculars are really critical for a while. I've harder to bring along. And some people are like, I can just raise my lens and look through my lens, but it's just not as easy. And just having those binoculars around your neck at all times to search things out and identify things, it's great to have. Let's see what else. I bring a ground pod for a lot of my shooting. I think the one I have is made by Naturescapes. It looks like a frying pan that you have on the ground so that you can kind of lie down. And I've got a really right soft ball head on that that you can put a gimbal on there and then you can put your long lens. And so you're shooting at the same level as the animal. And for me, it's especially helpful at the beach when I'm photographing shorebirds, water birds, and really any animals that is safe to do that with to get out and shoot from the ground. But of course, now we have these fully articulating screens, just like, like the new A7V. It's got a four axis fully articulating monitor. And we don't even have to get down on the ground anymore. Right. You can just kind of flip that out and look through the monitor from a higher vantage point. And I do bring the Merlin app. You know, my phone is handy in terms of being able to identify a species. Like if I'm driving along and I hear a bird but I can't see it and I want to know what it is, I will hang my phone out the window and identify it by using that Merlin app, which is from the Cornell Lab of Ornithology. It's a fantastic resource.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now, Bobby, do we have a clean Sony sweep or what's going on on your phone?

[Bobby Stormer]

Yeah, we do.

[Derek Fassbender]

We do. There we go.

[Bobby Stormer]

I'm not a Sony artisan. Not yet. Not yet. I've done some stuff with them, but I've been a Sony shooter since 2014. I used to shoot Nikon and then I switched over to Sony when the whole mirrorless thing was popping off. And then I wasn't shoot a bit. And then when I got back into it, I just. Sony still seemed to be on top, so I just kept with it. Now I have the similar setup as Melissa. I have the A1 Mark II. My choice of long lens is the 400 millimeter 2.8 G master. Yeah. But it really comes down to your target species. Melissa does a lot of birds and stuff where the reach really comes into play. I shoot a lot of mammals, you know, foxes and bears and then bigger birds of prey and then lower light Scenarios where the 2.8 really comes into play. The 400 also really suits my needs in terms of my style of photography. I'm very big into environmental kind of shots. So the 400 gives me that flexibility. I can get closer, I can stay further away if they decide to come closer to me. I can get like the frame filler shots. But I really strive to go after more environmental shots. And then with the cameras these days, 50 megapixel, I can crop in and I can like turn one photo into four different photos if I really wanted to, just by cropping into different compositions. And then I have the 400 to 800 for more of a walk around zoom, especially if I'm really just going out for birds. And then I do use the Teleconverters on the 400, I'll use the 1.4 and the 2 times I usually always have the 1.4 in my pocket ready to go. And then I recently got the 50 to 150, which I don't really use too much for wildlife, but I've tried a couple times, but they obviously have to get a lot closer. But the Sony has been great, you know, shooting high ISO, low light shooting. You know, I could shoot like 25,000 ISO and still get nice usable images. And then as Melissa said, I always have my binoculars with me. Sometimes I even go out and I leave the camera at home and I just bring the binoculars because, you know, we get so caught up in seeing everything through a viewfinder. It's nice to just take a step back and just be more aware of everything and not being so caught up in getting the photos. So sometimes I'll just bring out the binoculars with me and then I have tripods. I am a Leophoto ambassador, so I have a bunch of their tripods and heads. I'm big into hand holding, but again, it depends on the subject. You know, if I'm just kind of waiting around for some bald eagles or some short eared owls or you know, if I'm shooting an owl late into the evening, that's when a tripod really, really comes handy. You can have a nice steady platform, you can do your panning motions and all that. But when it comes to like foxes and bears and coyot, I'm really big into being handheld. I just like to be nimble. I want to be moving around. By the time you set up a tripod, you're missing the shot. That's when the fox is running away from you. You're just taking a picture of their tail end as they run away because you're too busy trying to set up a tripod and then just like some little stuff. I always have a headlamp with me because I'm usually out early in the morning and then later into the evening. But I try to be pretty minimalistic. Some people go out with like backpacks and all this gear, but to me it's just too much. I can't like roll around on the ground if I have a backpack and a tripod and all that stuff. So a lot of times I just have my camera on a strap with my binoculars, my headlamp, maybe some water, my phone. I do use the Merlin app, also really, really useful if you're just learning birds and you want to put the sounds to a name and you can turn that on and then as the birds sing, the app starts bringing up the birds that are making the noise and then that's how you start to learn the sounds over time. Also, if you take photos and you don't know what it is, you can put the photo in the app and then it does a very, very good job at identifying the bird. So those are just nice little ways to do the research, learn the birds over time. That's like pretty much my go to setup for just about anything. It does everything I want it to do, plus more.

[Derek Fassbender]

I love it. You guys are very in tune on the, the gear thing at least. Now what about settings as far as focus is concerned or shooting manually versus this shutter or aperture priority? Can you talk us through your settings?

[Bobby Stormer]

So I like to shoot manual mode plus auto ISO. So to me the most important factor in wildlife photography is the shutter speed. If your shutter speed is not correct, you're either going to have a bunch of blurry photos or underexposed, overexposed, whatever it might be. Now some people might just shoot in shutter priority. I like to just shoot in manual just because I don't want the camera to choose an aperture for me, me. So I just want to have full control over it. I don't really change my aperture all too much. Very rarely maybe if I'm trying to get like two targets in one frame. But when you're shooting at these focal lengths, the compression is so great, it's hard to get the depth of field that wide anyway. So I usually just set my aperture and forget it. But I'm always looking at my shutter speed. And that comes down to the subject you're photographing. You know, like birds in flight is going to be a lot faster shutter speed than like a bear casually walking through the forest. And then even down to the birds, you know, like I could shoot a short eared owl hovering over the grasslands at like 1/1000 and get it pretty good. But if you're trying to photograph like a warbler hopping around sticks, you might want to be at like 1-4- Thousands. And then the cameras are so good these days I'm not really too concerned with the ISO now. It's something I'm keeping my eye on because realistically, the lower the ISO, the cleaner the image is going to be. But, but especially with these Sonys, like I could shoot 25,000, 40,000 ISO and still get really usable images. You know, you throw it through like a Denoise program and it can clean it up really, really well. So to me, the shutter speed is my most important factor. And then whatever ISO is needed to properly expose the image. That's the ISO that I use. Some people try to underexpose their images just to keep the ISO low. I've found the opposite. I would rather just properly expose my image. Even if it calls for 25,000 ISO find it gives me a much better starting point to then edit the RAW files. That's like my go to in terms of shooting modes. I guess I'll hand it over to Melissa.

[Melissa Grew]

Great. I prefer to shoot in full manual just to be in control of those three points of the exposure triangle. And for me, shutter speed is like Bobby says, it's absolutely king. I think a lot of people make the mistake with wildlife photography by just choosing using too low of a shutter speed. And I just want to encourage everybody to push yourself and choose shutter speeds that are higher than you think you're going to need. I mean, ideally with birds, you're not really shooting at less than 1 2,500 of a second if you have got the light. And if you want to shoot birds in flight, ideally you're at like 1 4,000th. You know, they are so fast and especially now that we have pre capture, we're really able to get the moment that they're just beginning to unfurl their wings and lift off of a branch. And that's so exciting. But yeah, shutter speed is always the first thing I'm thinking about. Even if I'm driving around in my car with my gear looking for something to photograph, my camera is set, I've already read the light, I've dialed in my exposure, and my shutter speed to start with is never lower than about 1 2000. I want to be ready for anything. And ideally it's going to be higher than that. Especially if I find a bird, I'm going to ratchet that up. I have started making a foray into using auto ISO. I get a little bit nervous about letting the camera decide that, especially with birds in flight, I am not going to go to auto ISO because I want to set the exposure up in such a way that when the bird is crossing against a background that is changing in tone or shadow, that it's actually going to keep the exposure constant on the bird. And I don't want auto ISO to try to make that decision. I just don't have faith that it's going to do as good a job as if I set it manually. So that's an instance where I would not choose auto ISO for sure. But I do think auto ISO can be a great way to go most of the time, especially if you're dealing with birds that are moving in and out of dappled light, where the light on the bird itself is actually constantly changing, it can be a big help. And then, as I said, pre capture is a functionality now on my three main cameras. And you can go back like a full second in time if you want, where you're half pressing the shutter the whole time and you're saving images to the buffer the whole time. And then when you press the shutter fully, it's actually seizing all those photos from up to a full second before you fully press the shutter. And so it's a wonderful function to use for all kinds of things, whether you're like getting a dolphin or a porpoise, like briefly crusting the surface of the water, or an owl coming out of its nest in a tree, or a monkey or a squirrel leaping from one tree to another, or the perfect flash of iridescence on a hummingbird throat. You know when you're like trying to photograph that and it just happens so quickly now, you know, you can press the shutter after you've just seen that, where you couldn't really seize that before because it happens so fast.

[Mike Weinstein]

It's like time travel.

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah, yeah. It's just an amazing thing to have. And so I try to be somewhat careful. And I don't have it on all the time because it means, like, way more photos to wade through. And then in terms of aperture, I shoot wide open a lot of the time. But more and more I'm trying to stop down and go to apertures like F8 or F11 to give more of a sense of the environment. And I encourage people to do that. Like, if you've got a bird, you're really working, try different apertures. Don't just stick with that F4, that F2.8 or 5.6, but stop down and kind of, when you look at those photos later, I think you'd be surprised to find that some of them are going to be more interesting and engaging because you are including more of that sense of habitat. That's just something to keep in mind.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now, this conversation on gear and settings, obviously it's a linear thing. We're looking for better photos, better gear or more fitting gear. The right settings help lead us towards the photos that we want. And we are a visually driven society now, where it's the aesthetics of the image, or if it's photojournalism, we want impactful imagery that tells a story. Which leads us to the conversation that I want to dive back into regarding these Ethical considerations beyond just baiting animals, really staging photo ops. This is something that I wasn't aware was going on to the depths that. That you were talking about, Melissa. But can we open up this conversation? I feel like we've gotten to a point where people are willing to do literally anything for a photo or literally anything to commandeer a story and tell maybe not the right story, but the story that they want to push for. Views, clicks, or whatever other agendas they might have.

[Bobby Stormer]

Exactly.

[Melissa Grew]

I mean, some people, I think, treat it as trophy hunting. You know, they're going for that trophy shot that they can throw around social media and get the dopamine hit from the likes, and the consequences to the end will be damned. I'm not saying most wildlife photographers are like that, but there's certainly people like that out there. And if we could sort of reframe it. Let's try to think about doing this as a way to honor nature and celebrate it and sort of follow that principle in the medical profession of first do no harm. You know, how do we do no harm? Because it's like we were saying earlier, just start being there as a disturbance. Right? And some people might say, well, then why even go out? Why do anything that might disturb them? Why do we need more pictures? And I think it's very important for us to be out there. I think it's really important to be telling the stories of animals, to be celebrating nature, to be inspiring others to go out and do the same thing, because that's how a lot of people are connecting to nature now. You know, there's been this explosion of bird photography and wildlife photography since the pandemic. It's become a huge business. People are really finding it to be almost a meditative process. Like, they're out there. They're able to strip away everything else, forget about the phone, forget about all their worries, and just really be in the moment in a way that they're not finding anywhere else, you know? And so it's a great way for people to connect with nature, to really develop a sense of caring about a place or creature. And so, yes, we need to be out there, but we also need to be really cognizant of what are the best field practices that are going to help us get the photo that we want, but also be incredibly empathetic to the animal and really attune to their behavior and really reading that behavior and knowing when it's time to pull back or even to walk away.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now, can we expand this a little bit more? Melissa, you've written a lot about ethics as it relates to captive animals and game farms and other types of animal haven't. What are the regulations surrounding that industry? Are there ways to tell whether something is or isn't highly regulated? Yeah. What are the steps that you're taking to really suss these places out?

[Melissa Grew]

It's a great, great question and something that I really am very eager to help people think through. There's always going to be a call for captive wildlife photography. Like just, just some people really enjoy zoos. They enjoy the accessibility of captive animals to train their photography on. And I totally understand that. I do not personally like to photograph captive wildlife, but there's always going to be a place for it. And so there are such an incredible range of captive wildlife facilities in this country and most of them them are very, very poorly monitored. They don't meet even the barest conditions for animal welfare. And it's a real problem because there's almost 3,000 zoos in this country and only about 237 of them are certified by the American Zoological association. And most of them are roadside zoos.

[Derek Fassbender]

Wow.

[Melissa Grew]

And they are rife with animal welfare problems like really small enclosures and unsanitary conditions and no vet care and all that stuff. But the wild thing is that these places can call themselves anything they want. No one is ground truthing it. They can call themselves a sanctuary, they can call themselves a refuge, a haven and be the exact same opposite. And people just take it on face values. They go, oh, that place is called such and such sanctuary. It must be great for the animals, it must really care about its animals. But indeed it could be a place that exists only to profit off the misery of genetically wild animals. And so what can we do? How do we make better choices? Well, there's. There's these three questions that I think we can apply or these three factors that we should consider every time we're thinking of visiting a place. Because indeed there's so many great sanctuaries that do exist. They have to be there to be a real haven for all the animals that have been rescued from these places or from exotic backyard pet owners or all the awful sorts of situations that they are sometimes rescued from. They need to be able to go to sanctuary. So you do have true sanctuaries in this country and they're certified by the American Sanctuary association and the Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries. So if you go to those websites, you can find where in your area there is one of those places, those are the places to support with your money and your time. But the red flags I just want to throw out there for all of us are the following. Does it offer direct contact with animals like cub petting or photo ops? These are basically pay to play schemes and they are based on a cycle of abuse and premature separation from their mothers and mutilation like defanging, declawing, in order to make them sort of manageable to be held by just normal people who are coming in off the street. So you really want to avoid any place that allows for that direct contact. And then does it breed animals? So there are certain zoos that are part of the species survival plan. Those serve legitimate conservation purposes that are really aimed at preventing extinction. And so those are typically through association of zoos and aquariums and the zoos they certify. But a lot of roadside zoos will say, oh, we breed our animals because we're trying to help prevent extinction. And it's about education. And they're going to claim all these things on their website and in person and you just have to see through that. And then the third factor is, does it buy or sell animals? Any place that buys or sells animals is viewing these animals as a commodity. And you want to absolutely stay away from any facility that's actively doing those things because they're breeding their animals in order to sell them and often selling baby animals like wolves at only a week or two weeks old so that they bond with their new owner and things like that. So those are the kinds of places that if the answer is yes to any one of those three things, just don't go.

[Derek Fassbender]

Go. Some good information. Bobby, I want to bring you back in on this conversation, particularly for rehab license and, and kind of bring back this idea of animal rescue. What does it take to get licensed with a rehab license and what does that involve?

[Bobby Stormer]

It's fairly difficult. I don't have my license. I'm technically an apprentice through registered rehabber. Realistically, it's a lot of time. I think the apprenticeship is two years and then you can technically either work under the same rehabber as a licensed rehabber or you can start your own. The unfortunate part, not that any of us are in it for money, but it's all non profits and it's all time. So realistically, a lot of the people involved are older people, maybe they're retired. I know some people like they work at a vet and then they also do it on the side. So it's definitely not an easy thing to get into because again, the world we're living in right now is crazy. So you need to be making money and there's not money to be made within the industry and then it just takes up all your time as well. So that's why currently where I'm at, you know, building a new career, being a dad and all that kind of stuff, I can't do the rehabbing full time time. But that's why I really enjoy doing the rescues. So I just work with different rehabbers. Sometimes they'll call me like, oh, we've we got a report of this fox that's in Bergen County. We know you're over there. Do you think you can go grab the fox and then bring the fox over to us? So there's a large world in terms of volunteering. Like pretty much every rehabber that I know would take in volunteers because there's just not enough of them. But actually getting your license reasons, it's just difficult for the various reasons that I mentioned, but it's possible. So the people that are interested in it, I would recommend just searching different rehabbers within your area. There's usually different rehabbers for different species of animals. So some might have their license for birds, some might have their license for mammals. And then within mammals, I think there's only one rehabber in New Jersey that can take in bears, but then there's a bunch that can take in foxes and coyotes and raccoons and squirrels, possums, skunks, stuff like that. So they have to get license for different species of animals. But again, anyone that's interested in volunteering definitely just do some research, find some rehabbers in your area and then reach out to them. And then, you know, you might just be able to help with cleaning up the grounds. You might be able to help with doing rescues if you have the time. And you can dive full force into it, by all means try to get into an apprenticeship and then then work towards getting your license. And then you can eventually build your own facility. I mean, I'm sure there's tons of codes and stuff behind it because you have to have indoor enclosures, you have to have outdoor enclosures. You know, the, you have to live in certain areas and stuff like that, but there's a whole world into it. As mentioned, it's not necessarily easy, but it's possible.

[Mike Weinstein]

It's weird that there's like these two different regimes, one that's very loose, which allows businesses to label themselves sanctuaries when they're actually doing the opposite thing. But then there's this very, I think admirable layer that makes sure that the people who want to do rehab work are legitimately interested and educated. So it's like this two tiered system working against each other in a sort of hard to even understand.

[Bobby Stormer]

And these zoos and whatnot, they're making money. They could charge people hundreds, thousands of dollars to come and sit with cubs and pet them and whatnot. Meanwhile, rehabbers are struggling just to take care of an animal because government funding is very limited. Some of them might get into some grants and stuff like that and get funding, but most of it's just based off donations. So you're relying on people donating, but then you need people running your social medias because you have to get eyes on what you're doing. So it's definitely a very complicated situation.

[Derek Fassbender]

Mike, I know you wanted to dive back into this idea of the pandemic shift. I know, I was thinking it over on my side.

[Bobby Stormer]

Yeah.

[Mike Weinstein]

Both of you have stated that there is this acceleration that happened during and after the pandemic. You know, and we understand this because people maybe had time on their hands. But more specifically, can you speak to what led to this sort of acceleration of interest during the pandemic? Is it as simple as people were laid off for a little bit?

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's that people had more time to look around.

[Bobby Stormer]

Yeah. Just pay attention.

[Melissa Grew]

They had more time. Right. It was license to pay attention on a local level because they couldn't travel or they couldn't go to work. And so they really turned their attention to what was around them and began to discover there's this community around them of non human beings that they could watch and learn about and capture in photos. And so birding really took off and wildlife viewing, wildlife photography really took off. And there's this one figure published in the U.S. fish and Wildlife Report a couple years ago that birding in the US experienced mass massive growth in 2022, 96 million people, that's 37% of adults, participated in some kind of birding and wildlife watching. More than double the 2016 figures.

[Jill Waterman]

I have a thought about this that I noticed during the pandemic. I was stuck at home in a small apartment in Manhattan and there's birds like morning that live in my neighborhood. And all of a sudden I heard them more than I had ever heard them before. And I think they came out more because there weren't people on the street. Did you as a wildlife photographer notice that happening in more rural areas or in the wild?

[Melissa Grew]

I mean, because there aren't a Lot of people around me where I live, I didn't really see that shift, But I heard about it, noticed it from a lot of people. So, yeah, tell us, Bobby, because you live in a different.

[Bobby Stormer]

I have a pretty good example, actually. I want to say it was 2020. I got a call from a group of residents in Princeton, New Jersey. They lived right by Princeton University. And there was a bunch of bangy foxes. Unfortunately, two adults had mange, and then they had a litter of kits, and then all the kits got mange. So they called me up to see if I can come down and help them. Them. And I haven't been to Princeton in a while, but the campus was completely closed. So I was just wandering around the campus, and there was just, like, foxes and squirrels, and, like, I just saw so many animals. And then I noticed once the campus kind of opened back up again, it was way harder to find the foxes. Like, they weren't as active. They were a lot more secretive. They were staying more on this golf course instead of coming out into the campus. So animals are definitely smart and even down to like. Like, nocturnal. A lot of people talk about nocturnal animals, which, sure, there are plenty of nocturnal animals, but the reality is a lot of these animals have just adapted to human life, and humans are not as active at night. So animals have just become more active at night. So kind of the same concept of what I saw. And then again, like, once the campus opened back up, it was way harder to find the foxes. So they're smart. They know this stuff. So I definitely believe, you know, people not being on the streets and been around all the time, the animals noticed it, and then they just started to come out a lot more. Another thing that I noticed, which might be, like, a little off topic, it was kind of around the same era when Covid was happening, was everyone got these ring cameras. Some people have six cameras surrounding their whole property. You can monitor your property 24, 7. You can see every single thing that passes through your yard. So now people are more mindful. Like, you know, they didn't realize that foxes and bears and coyotes use their yard for traveling paths. And now they have more time on their hands also. So I feel like just the combination of a couple different things just made people more aware and then inspired people to kind of just get out looking for the animals.

[Mike Weinstein]

Huh.

[Jill Waterman]

On that note, are there any ethical considerations for people who might be setting up remote. Remote wildlife cameras? Does that factor in at all to ethical practices?

[Melissa Grew]

I do think there are ethical issues when it comes to camera trapping. Or setting out trail cams. You know, actual camera trapping is something I've done. It's sort of a souped up version of a trail cam. You've got a DSLR in a waterproof housing and you've got a sensor and flashes in waterproof housing and all that. But I think it can be problematic to be luring animals to your traps by using food or scent lures, which happens a lot.

[Bobby Stormer]

Very popular in hunting.

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah. And I think we have to be very careful about the placement of camera traps. Like, I, I don't think it's a great idea to put them near the mouth of a den because that could very well scare the family of wolves or lions or foxes, coyotes, et cetera, away. I think it's also a good idea to not put it on a pathway. Like, if an animal wants to avoid the camera, let it have another way to get around. You know, if you're putting it on the only path along a cliff edge and the animal's going to have to just completely go somewhere else rather than, than take its route, you know, that's just something to consider. Those are a couple of considerations I would have. You know, we have so many tools now. I sometimes say this is the best time ever to be a wildlife photographer, but it's the worst time in history to be an animal, a wild animal. We've got drones, we've got thermal imaging, we've got these gadgets that play back their calls. We've got the ability to go to any corner of the Earth now and track down an animal. And there's this incredible imbalance of power. We have so much power over wild animals and they have so few places left on Earth. How do we go into their habitat knowing that?

[Derek Fassbender]

So where do we go from here? I mean, we're only getting more populated, we're only getting more population, more of this information out there to be in the ether. But it's crowded out by everything else that goes out into the social media space. And, you know, what's next? How do we, how do we take this conservation effort to the next level?

[Melissa Grew]

We need to tell stories, and I think we need to tell stories rooted in authenticity and respect for wild animals. And we need to go local and just really drill down, choose a story that's playing out right in your yard or your neighborhood because it's something you can return to. It's so accessible to you and you can really tell a full and complete story. Track it through the seasons or through different times of day. Choose an individual animal if it doesn't feel harassed by you, maybe it's a bird that comes to your feeder and you're able to. To photograph it sort of going about different aspects of its life and a personality sort of emerges. Or you're documenting a particular park that's at threat or, you know, a piece of land and trying to document all the wildlife that lives there and depends on it. Telling these local stories, getting them out, getting people to feel moved and inspired, to protect and to really see what's around them, I think is the greatest service you can provide right now as a photographer. And being very clear on social media with your photos, telling the story of how you got the shot, teaching people a little something about that animal and why it's special or why it's important to the ecosystem, or just why it makes you happy. Be, you know, these. I think these are things that we can do that's really within the reach of any of us. What do you think, Bobby?

[Bobby Stormer]

Yeah, I fully agree. The local thing really stands with me. It was like a huge thing when I started. I just wanted to show the beauty of nature right around me. And there's this quote by Steve Irwin that I've always liked. I think it's something like, if we can teach people about wildlife, they'll be touched, essentially. Like, people can see these things, then it can create that respect and create that love. So even a simple post on Instagram could reach millions of people and that could create a whole revolution. So, like the photos you post, the captions you're writing with it. I try to be meaningful with the things that I say. Sometimes I tell, like the story about how I got this photo. Sometimes I talk about the animal or the behavior, all those little things. The more we can show the beauty of this world, the better off our future is going to be overall, in general.

[Mike Weinstein]

Yeah.

[Melissa Grew]

And even if you only touch one or two people.

[Bobby Stormer]

Yeah, exactly.

[Melissa Grew]

Even if you've just opened someone's mind to respect that possum. That's like eating by the side of the road in the middle of the night. Or just understand that that possum has real importance to the ecosystem and that it has some really special characteristics and it has its own personality. Like just opening people's eyes, especially to animals that many people consider as pests or varmin or unnecessary, which is all just complete bull, you know, we need every single native animal. I think that's something that all of us have the power to do. You don't have to be some professional conservation photographer to help have a real impact on other people and on wildlife.

[Derek Fassbender]

Such great information here. Now, before we wrap it up, is there any advice you have for somebody who did want to go the professional route with wildlife and conservation photography? What advice would you give to people in those positions?

[Bobby Stormer]

So, realistically, I'm still finding my way. It's definitely not an easy genre of photography to make a career or make money in. It's taken me a while, although some people might consider it fast because many people have to be in the field for 10, 20 years before they get to the point. So I'm thankful of the progress that I've made. I feel like you just have to really get into it for the right reasons. Like, if you're just getting into it for the photos, then you're just automatically off to the wrong start. You really have to have that respect for the animals. And I've leaned in on that on myself, like. Like, as long as I can show who I am and show my respect and my love for these animals, then if people like it and then my journey continues to grow, then I know I'm doing the right thing instead of trying to force it and make money in an unethical manner. So just like staying true to yourself, following your dreams, and then always doing what's right by the animals without having to force it. And then if it works out, out, then it works out. But just know, like, wildlife photography is one of the hardest genres of photography just to get started in, let alone making money in. You know, it's hard, simple.

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah. I remember several years ago, quite a few years ago now, really, when I was sort of on that line of, like, transforming from a hobbyist to professional photographer and treating it seriously as a profession. I was in Yellowstone and I was photographing a bobcat with this friend of mine, Tin Man Lee, that some people may know. And I looked to the side and I saw a photographer I recognized, and it was Michael Nichols. Mike. Nick Nichols, who's this legendary wildlife photographer, photojournalist, National Geographic giant. And I was so excited. He was photographing the bobcat, too, for some special issue for National Geographic on Yellowstone and Tinman. And I went up to him after the bobcat left and ended up talking to him for a couple hours. He was really wonderful and personable, and he said, so, what do you want to do with your photography? And I said, I want to be a professional wildlife photographer. And he just looked at me with this look like, oh, God, you have no idea. And he said, no one. And I mean no one. Makes a living as a wildlife photographer. And, you know, in the moment, I felt sort of downcast, crestfallen. But at the same moment I thought, no, I'm not going to go with that. I'm going to make it happen. And what I will say is, yes, it's damn hard to make a living as a wildlife photographer, but you can do it if you are very versatile. So you have to be able to teach and speak. Writing really helps too. And selling prints, licensing images to magazines. You kind of have to be ready to work all the time. You know, I find that I photograph a lot less than I would like to. I kind of miss the days when I would just drive around and look for stuff. Cause that's what I had time for. There's a lot of administrative stuff, but yeah, you have to be able to do a lot of different things, wear a lot of different hats. And more than anything, you need to be able to network your ass off. You have to really make a lot of relationships happen with other photographers, with editors at publications, with scientists, with. With reporters for newspapers. It's super important to go across a wide swath of careers and really make good contacts with people that you could partner with someday that you could approach with a pitch, whatever it is. So I have found that that is really essential. And then I just want to end with saying that your reputation is everything. If you want to make it as a professional wildlife photographer. Don't take those ethical shortcuts to get the shot. Only do things that you would feel comfortable putting in the caption. Like if you're not comfortable putting something in the caption about how you got a shot, that's a good sign that maybe it's not something you want to engage in again. It's just the photography community is relatively small and word really gets around. And if you're doing stuff that's really objectionable or, you know, really possibly harmful to the animal, that's really going to hurt you. And it's going to hurt you for a long time, if not forever. So I would say really value your reputation and your honesty. Because other people really value that too. I think it's especially our job as professionals, Bobby and I, to be good models of field practices that are really careful about the animal. Because people are looking up to us. You know, we are modeling behavior by our very act of leading a workshop. There are some. Not many, hopefully, but there are some professional wildlife photographers that in order to ensure that their students get the shot, they're following some practices that I think are really unfortunate lessons for their students, because then their students are going to go out into the field and apply those same practices over and over again, whether it's call playback or baiting or getting too close or staying too long or what have you. And so be very careful. If you are a beginner or wildlife photographer or someone who just wants to take a workshop with a professional, make sure you ask really good questions before you go on that workshop. You know, are there any ways that you're luring this animal in and see if you can even talk to someone who's been on a workshop with that guide or leader. Bobby, what do you have to say about that?

[Bobby Stormer]

Yeah, without a doubt. We didn't talk too much about guiding, but I do it. Melissa does it.

[Melissa Grew]

It.

[Bobby Stormer]

It's a big way of making money in the wildlife world, but it's also a very ethically complex. It is situation because we're bringing people to look for wildlife.

[Melissa Grew]

Yeah.

[Bobby Stormer]

Which you're sharing locations and people are looking up to you as the role model. Unfortunately, there are guides that are not as ethical, so they bring people out and they're teaching them the wrong practices, and then those people think it's the normal practice, and then they go out and then they continue to do it, and then they tell your friends about it. So being a guide is a huge responsibility that anyone in the position doing it should take very, very seriously.

[Melissa Grew]

And of course, as professionals, we want our guests, our clients, to get the shot. They've paid dearly, they've trusted us. And so it's this fine line you have to walk like you want your clients to get the shot, but you don't want to engage in anything that. That is possibly harmful or inconsiderate of the animals. And so we have to be really thoughtful about the places we take people and the kinds of things that we do and the way we approach animals. It's an important consideration for sure.

[Derek Fassbender]

Lot of wonderful information here. I want to thank you both. Now, Melissa, any projects you have coming up, anything you're excited to talk about and where can we learn more about your work?

[Melissa Grew]

Sure. I do want to say it's been an absolute delight, and thank you so much to you all for making this possible and for tackling this issue, which I think is super important in terms of upcoming projects for me, I will be going way north for an assignment for Audubon magazine. I'll be going up to tell the story of a bird that breeds up on Baffin island, which is in the territory of Nunavut in the Arctic Archipelago just west of Greenland. And so I'll be doing that this summer. I'm very excited about going way up there. And I'm also headed to Canada in a couple weeks to look for lynxes with a friend. And that's just a personal passion project. It's an animal I've never seen, but I would love to. And the first part of March is when lynxes are really looking for mates and your best chance to see them. And later in March, I'll be headed to Nebraska to teach for Summit Photography workshops. Every year I teach a workshop in Kearney, Nebraska that's focused on the great migration of over a million sandhill cranes that stop along the Platte river there for a few weeks to rest and refuel for their trip up to their Arctic breeding grounds. It's an incredible experience, so I'm looking forward to that. And yeah, otherwise just volunteering at the wildlife hospital and continuing to tell the stories of the wildlife that comes in there. And people can find me on Instagram, Elissagrew and they can look up that Rolling Stone magazine story on photography game farms that I mentioned. It's be good if people could educate themselves about that. And then I also wanted to mention with a, a hat tip to National Audubon Society. We put together a guide to ethical bird photography and videography a few years ago and that's online and I think is a great resource for good field practices around birds that keep birds safe when we're out there. So I think that can be a useful reference.

[Derek Fassbender]

Wonderful, thank you. Melissa and Bobby, what do you have coming down the pike and where can we hear more about your work?

[Bobby Stormer]

So for me, one thing I'm really looking to dive into a little bit more is the assignment based stuff. Kind of like what Melissa does. I'm doing the guiding. Spring gets busy for me. I started doing guiding for foxes and owls and stuff like that, but I'd really like to get into the assignment based aspect of it. So I'm working to go into that field a little bit more and then just continue telling my local conservation stories. I'm working on building a YouTube channel to show people my approach and the ethical side of wildlife photography and my firsthand experiences out in the wild so people can see it a lot more and build a deeper understanding of it. I'm hoping to make it back out to Chicago this summer to search for some urban coyotes, which I find to be completely fascinating. I got to go out there in August and I found a bunch of coyotes just roaming around the city of Chicago. So I'm hoping to get back out there again again. And a big goal for me is I would love to photograph every fox species in the world and then create a book of some sort about it. But, you know, just honing in my craft, doing my local stuff and then just letting it build up over time.

[Derek Fassbender]

Wonderful. It was such an informative talk today, I think, not only just learning about what you guys do and what's out there in the world of conservation photography, but really this kind of opened up the door for a lot of people to go out there and educate themselves. And I think one great step is for people to take this curiosity, take this information and go see how they can affect it locally like we had talked about and really learn more about how regular people, non photographers have an impact on everything that we had talked about. So I want to thank you both for joining us today and to all of our listeners out there, I want to thank you for joining us joining us today. If you are a fan of the show but are not yet a subscriber, head on over to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, B H's YouTube channel, or wherever you get your podcast and click subscribe. You can also find us on the Explora blog where we post photos from our guests along with our show notes. I'm your host, Derek Fosbender. Jill Waterman is our creative producer. Episodes are recorded, mixed and edited by technical producer Mike Weinstein. And our executive producer is Richard Stevens. On behalf of us all, thank you so much for tuning in today.

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