Two Generations of Top Photo Agents with Jennifer Perlmutter & Michael Ash

Summary

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B&H Photography Podcast

Episode: Two Generations of Top Photo Agents with Jennifer Perlmutter & Michael Ash

Release date: March 12, 2026
Host: Derek Fassbender

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Episode Overview

In this insightful and vibrant episode, host Derek Fassbender is joined by two influential photographer’s agents (or reps): Michael Ash, whose career reaches back to the late 1970s and the golden era of film, and Jennifer “JP” Perlmutter, a dynamic force in the modern, digital, and social media-driven commercial industry.
They delve into the evolving landscape of photographic representation—discussing what agents/reps actually do, how the industry is shifting, the nuances of maintaining authenticity in an era of constant trends, and how the relationship between photographer and agent is about much more than simply "getting jobs."
The discussion flows from deep mentorship stories to the nitty-gritty of contract negotiations in the age of AI, from the real meaning of personal branding to why some photographers are best “discovered” and mentored rather than just marketed. Both guests offer candid stories and invaluable advice for both emerging and established creatives.

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Key Discussion Points

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1. Agent vs. Rep: Semantics and Status

[03:11]

• Jennifer Perlmutter: Considers "agent" and "rep" interchangeable but notes "rep" is more holistic and less loaded due to film industry connotations over compensation.
  • “We tend to use the word rep to be more holistic about what we do. But I think they’re fairly interchangeable.”
• Michael Ash: Prefers "agent" for its implied stature, sees the distinction as mostly semantics.
  • “I always liked agent. Gave a little bit more stature to us.”

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2. Paths into the Field: Wild Stories vs. Structured Entry

[04:20-09:35]

• Michael Ash: Entered the field in the late 70s with no prior knowledge—drawn in by people, opportunity, and sheer serendipity. Built career by personal visits and phone calls, not appointments ("float the agencies"), representing unknown photographers.
  • “I knew nothing...what I loved about it is that every day was different and I was in control of my own destiny.” [04:20]
  • Recalls the balance between business and artistry, and early resistance to changes like digital and stock photography.
• Jennifer Perlmutter: Started in a more transitionary era (mid-2000s); traditional portfolio shuffling gave way to links and digital catalogs. Entry was less glamorous but demanded adaptability.
  • “We went from having 30 books out the door on any given day to zero because everyone was using links.” [08:16]

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3. Changing Industry: Film to Digital, Walk-ins to Social Media

[06:14-11:39]

• Ash: Sees loss of magic and control with the rise of digital and stock, tried to unionize to prevent exploitation.
• Perlmutter: Saw the rise of agency showings ("lunch and learns") and the need for creative marketing and relentless follow-up.
  • “Having a rep is a lot of that follow up and marketing and relationship making that you don’t always have time to do as an artist.” [10:30]
• Both note that the agent’s or rep’s core job is about relationships and advocating for the artist in creative and business matters.

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4. The Role of Taste, Background, and Artistic Curation

[12:24-16:51]

• Both agree having a "good eye" is more valuable than formal training—some great reps never shot a frame.
• Ash: Editing photographers’ portfolios is his “joy and expertise,” and he won’t work with talent who refuse his edits.
  • “Most photographers are way too close to your work. …I could look at somebody’s work and within a half an hour...know exactly what they should be doing.” [28:46]
• Perlmutter: Emphasizes the value of portfolio guidance and long discussions about vision and missing elements.

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5. Production: Then and Now

[17:03-19:39]

• Ash: Rarely got involved in production early on—outsourced as soon as the industry demanded it.
• Perlmutter: Today's rep is hands-on in production (often executive producing), especially as agencies merge representation with production.
  • “Reps don’t just make money on commission anymore… I’m there on set… I am their last line of defense.” [17:49]

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6. Roster Size & Collaboration

[20:12-23:27]

• Ash: Never repped more than 10 at once; at Radical Media managed larger cross-agent teams to keep creative decision-making central (not just low bids).
• Perlmutter: Modern agencies may promote across 25-30 artists, but reps handle closer day-to-day relationships with 5 or so. Emphasizes teamwork, not internal competition.

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7. Contracts, Usage, and AI: Navigating Modern Complexity

[23:33-28:17]

• Rise of clients demanding copyright transfer and buyouts—but not always raising fees.
• Perlmutter: “Have a freaking minor in law these days.” Stresses importance of contracts, clarity on third-party usages, and educating new photographers on protecting their interests from exploitative terms—especially around AI and derivative works.
  • “You should always have in your contract that they can't have use for third parties…even though they own it, they're not supposed to sell it to other people.” [26:18]

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8. Unsung Duties: Guiding, Mentoring, and Portfolio Development

[28:46-32:05]

• Both reps are deeply engaged in editing and guiding, providing honest portfolio feedback, encouraging shooting personal work, and keeping artists focused on vertical (not horizontal) growth.
• “When you’re not shooting for a client, you should be doing it for yourself. And it should be stuff that's fueling not just your portfolio… but fueling your creativity.” —Perlmutter [30:06]

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9. Scouting Talent: Both Ways, But Vision and Drive Are Key

[33:03-38:13]

• Both discover artists proactively ("out there all the time looking for new artists"), but most successful relationships come from mutual recognition of shared passion and potential.
• Perlmutter: Introduces her “4P’s of Photography” vetting criteria:
  • Portfolio: Distinct, sellable point-of-view
  • Personality: Can connect on creative calls and collaborations
  • Production Acumen: Knows how to actually deliver
  • Prolificacy: Keeps making new, meaningful work
  • “The best photographers...were creating work and creating portfolio long before they had an agent.” [36:07]

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10. When to Say No: Knowing Your Lane & Long-Term Reputation

[39:31-42:55]

• Turning down the wrong job can be just as valuable as securing a high-paying one—protects reputation, channels energy to the right opportunities, and fosters genuine industry relationships.
• “You only have one chance to make a first impression...when you screw up, what you only have in this business is your reputation.” —Ash [40:32]

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11. Personal Branding: Authenticity > Persona

[44:45-47:07]

• Perlmutter: Cautions against becoming a “brand” at the cost of personality and authenticity; your emotional brand should just be "who you are as a person."
  • “Brands to me are things like deodorant...your emotional brand is your personality. That is who you are.” [44:45]
  • “You lose authenticity that way...You can't be so locked into this brand that you forget you're a person.” [46:21]

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12. Originality vs. Trends: How to Stand Out in a Saturated Market

[47:07-54:20]

• Perlmutter: Finds hope in young artists reinvesting in analog formats and “what made photography art, not a commodity.”
• Ash: Warns against showing "everything"; focus and clarity beat omnipresence on social media.
  • “What I do find in the Instagram photographers is that they do so many different things, and that's the death to a talent.” [50:30]

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13. Nostalgia, Authenticity, and the Future of Taste in Photography

[54:20-60:53]

• Post-truth, hyper-digital world creates longing for “connection,” authenticity, and intention—both in personal work and advertising.
  • “There's a push right now for that nostalgia...creating from the heart, creating things that feel real.” —Perlmutter [54:20]
  • “You want your art to influence the creative, not the other way around.” —Perlmutter [75:40]
• Trends (2016, TikTok styles, influencer photographers) are ephemeral, but genuine voice and vision endure.
• Beer-money budgets and analytics: Both rep and photographers lament the commodification of taste (“jobs going to people with followers, not talent”), but remain optimistic about clients returning to quality and connection.

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14. Mentorship and the Business of Photography

[71:03-72:26]

• Perlmutter: Amplify mentorship program at Apostrophe focuses on the business side—LLcs, contracts, billing, curation, marketing—ensuring emerging talent knows as much about protection and presentation as making pictures.
• “Our mentorship is actually really geared towards the business of photography... but the idea is I don't want someone to have to know you just based off what they're seeing online. I want you to leave that air of mystery that makes them want to meet you.” [71:29]

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15. Looking Forward: AI and Lifelong Learning

[74:33-75:40]

• Learn how to protect yourself around AI, usage, and copyright in contracts.
• Stay informed about visual and market trends, but don’t let them dictate your creative core.
  • “Your art should influence the creative, not the other way around.” —Perlmutter

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Michael Ash: "I never ever felt I had a job." [06:13]
• Jennifer Perlmutter: "A lot of our rep companies are small... and I loved the idea of working with artists on a day-to-day basis. It was really exciting." [13:23]
• Michael Ash: "If a photographer wanted to work with me and didn’t allow me to edit their work, I wouldn’t work with them." [28:46]
• Perlmutter (on contracts): “Contract negotiations have become more and more complex with the addition of AI, with a lot of people wanting the buyouts... I have a freaking minor in law these days.” [24:18]
• Michael Ash (on trend-chasing): “What I do find in Instagram photographers is that they do so many different things, and that’s the death to a talent…” [50:30]
• Perlmutter: “The people who inspire me are the people who create because they love to create, not because they're trying to be something or make money… the money comes when you are in that alignment.” [68:49]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Agent vs. Rep: [03:11]
• Michael & Jennifer’s Origins: [04:20-09:35]
• Evolution of “Repping”: [10:30-11:39]
• The Rep/Photographer Relationship: [12:24-16:51]
• Production Changes: [17:03-19:39]
• Roster and Workflow: [20:12-23:27]
• Contracts & Modern Complexity: [24:15-28:17]
• Portfolio Guidance & Mentorship: [28:46-32:05]
• Scouting Talent & 4Ps: [33:03-38:13]
• Saying No & Protecting Reputation: [39:31-42:55]
• Personal Branding vs. Personality: [44:45-47:07]
• Originality, Trends, & Taste: [47:07-54:20]
• Nostalgia, Trends, Influencers: [54:20-60:53]
• Mentorship at Apostrophe: [71:03-72:26]
• Preparing for the Future (AI and More): [74:33-75:40]

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Closing Recommendations & Networking

• Perlmutter: Urges networking (“APA, Focus on Women”) and supporting diversity in the field, especially through mentorship. [75:49]
• Ash: Stays involved as a consultant and Instagram curator, mentoring photographers globally. [76:28]
• Both: Embrace learning, honest critique, and following your vision—not merely the market.

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Summary prepared for those seeking to understand the modern realities and timeless truths of photographic representation—honest, practical, and inspiring for artists, reps, and photography aficionados alike.

Transcript

[Jill Waterman]

This week's episode is sponsored by Samsung.

[Michael Ash]

You're listening to the B and H photography podcast. For 50 years, B& H has been the professional source for photography, video, audio and more. For your favorite gear, news and reviews, Visit [e-mail] or download the B and H app to your iPhone or Android device. Now here's your host, Derek Fassbender.

[Derek Fassbender]

Welcome listeners. I'm Derek Fassbender, host of the B and H Photography Podcast.

[Jill Waterman]

And I'm Jill Waterman, the podcast senior creative producer.

[Michael Ash]

And I'm Mike Weinstein, the show's technical producer and audio engineer.

[Derek Fassbender]

One of the most polarizing questions in the mind of any photographer is should or shouldn't I get an agent? The role of an agent in a photographer's career is often misunderstood, leading hungry creatives to think that securing representation is their number one key to success. In truth, the relationship between a photographer and agent is far more nuanced than simply booking more assignments. In today's podcast, we'll explore what's really involved in this complex arrangement in a discussion with two generations of top agents whose combined careers span from the golden age of the film era to the latest in media buys. But before we begin, here's some background about each of our esteemed guests. Michael Ashe is a photographer's agent and creative consultant who began representing photographers in 1979 after failing to get drafted into Major League Baseball. Born in Brownsville, Brooklyn and raised on the streets of New York, Michael founded and led a successful agency in New York City from 1979 to 2016. Focused on guiding the careers of more than 40 photographers from around the globe, he introduced this international talent to the world of commercial photography through representation, creative direction and mentorship. Michael is an expert in contract negotiation expertise, editorial curation and client development. Most importantly, he has a lifelong dedication to nurturing artistic vision and unique creativity. Jennifer JP Perlmutter is currently a Senior photo and Motion Rep at Apostrophe with nearly two decades of experience representing and producing for photographers and directors across commercial and editorial realms. A 2006 graduate of Emerson College, where she studied advertising and visual arts, JP fell in love with photography early on and built a career at the intersection of creativity and commerce. She's known for her collaborative approach, sharp production insight and deep commitment to artist development, especially when it comes to mentoring emerging talent. Possessing a robust skill set that includes artist representation, marketing strategy, photography, print production, social media, and more, JP has built meaningful connections between artists, agencies and brands, helping creatives collaborate authentically thrive. She's passionate about Championing visual storytellers and creating space for new voices in an ever evolving industry. Jennifer Perlmutter and Michael Ash, welcome to the show.

[Michael Ash]

Hey. Hey. Hello.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Thank you.

[Derek Fassbender]

Thank you guys both for joining us this morning. Now, I gotta say, me being a photographer who has never been represented, I think a great place to start would be for both of you to kind of talk us through. What is the difference between a agent and. And a rep? Is there a difference and how is that in today's photography culture?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I mean, I don't see much of a difference between an agent and a rep. That's just semantics. I do think there is something where we're not supposed to be calling ourselves agents due to some film history about how that is interpreted and compensated. So we tend to use the word rep to be more holistic about what we do. But I think they're fairly interchangeable.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah, I agree. I think it's semantics. I always liked agent. I never liked the word rep. I always liked agent. Gave a little bit more stature to us.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Derek Fassbender]

Interesting. It was interesting to get each of you guys nuanced perspectives on that. Now, Michael, I want to start with you. How much did you know about photography in the late 70s when you first entered the business, and what was it about photography or photographers that first captured your interest?

[Michael Ash]

I knew nothing. I went to Adelphi University and did not graduate, was trying to get a contract play professional baseball. I didn't make it. And a friend of mine on the team was an amateur photographer and we started a business where I used to take his portfolio to retail stores everywhere in New York except for Manhattan, because I was scared in Manhattan, excuse the language. So it was a great way to meet women and it was just fantastic. And we were doing a shoot for a haircutting shop out in Long island and the owner of the shop, brother in law's friend, was there and he was a big time agent in New York and he said I should go meet this guy in New York. And they turned me on to this photographer's agent, Frank Marino. And I got an appointment to meet him. And I went into New York and they said, you should be an agent. And I had no idea what I was doing. I loved people I didn't know about art or photography. And I went to this studio, saw the most amazing things going on. He was a still life photographer and I got to meet Frank and I went into his office and he was sitting in there with like four beautiful women and a mound of cocaine. And I said, oh my God, I can definitely work here for sure. They didn't have a job for me, but they turned me onto this young photographer and I worked with this kid, Michael Nelson, who was on 17th street by Union Square, and I worked with him and he basically told me what to do. And I sat down with lists of art directors and called them up and went and showed the books, but I had no idea what I was doing. It was just meeting people and enjoying what I was doing. And what I loved about it is that every day was different and I was in control of my own destiny. And my taste in photography, I believe was inside my body. And it's something that I developed over the years. And I was very, very lucky because I never ever felt I had a job. Wow. Yeah.

[Derek Fassbender]

What a start there now.

[Michael Ash]

Insane.

[Derek Fassbender]

The better part of your career has been or, you know, that opening chapter was in the film photography industry. Film was dominant. That's all we had at that point. Yes. What changes, if any, did you find there to be in representing photographers and negotiating jobs during that time versus this transition to digital?

[Michael Ash]

Well, as I was saying before, I kind of got out of the business when digital started to become more prominent and I felt that what happened, I always loved film and I loved the quality of film and all of that was just magical. Using Polaroids and the spontaneity and the retouching was done differently. But what I didn't like about the digital age was business wise because the agencies were taking advantage of us and the photographers and they wanted all the pictures and they didn't want to pay for it and they wanted worldwide usage plus the Internet and they didn't want to pay for it. And back in the, I think in the 90s it might have been. I tried to start a union with photographers and agents and I got blackballed for a couple of years. But it was just before the stock industry came and it was based on the stock industry because I felt that we shouldn't give away our pictures to stock because it would take away from assignment photography. I ended up failing on that, but I got great respect from a lot of people all over the country and it really helped cement who I was at that time.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now, Jennifer, your start obviously different than Michael's. You had been around photography. Can you talk a little bit about what the landscape was like when you entered?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Very different than what I just heard. Yours sounds amazing and fun and like Mad Men it was. Mine was very different. However, my first real job as a rep was working with Robin Dichtenberg. Yeah. And. Oh, Gary. I'm blanking on Gary.

[Michael Ash]

Gary Horowitz.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yes, and Gary Hurowitz. So my first real job was working with Robin Dichtenberg and Gary Hurwitz at Greenhouse Reps. And I really was thrown into the deep end very quick because they came up in the same time as Michael did. I mean, I remember starting my career and being in that agency and having Monday status meetings where we had to figure out where all of our portfolios were, what agencies had them, what clients had them. And just in that span of three years, we went from having 30 books out the door on any given day to zero because everyone was using links. And it became a lot more difficult to track who was looking at our artist and when. That being said, coming out of school, when I did, it was an interesting shift of the social. And the Internet was really booming. Social media was just coming up in 2006 when I had graduated college, so it hadn't quite filtered as much into the commercial world just yet. But, you know, it was just a different world. I didn't walk into agencies and walk out with layouts. I had a much more difficult time of getting in the door places. And, you know, I think that answers the question.

[Michael Ash]

I'll tell you. It's funny, Jennifer, when you say, you know, walking into agencies. That's all I did at the beginning. All through my career, you know, it was going out to agencies, and I didn't even have to make appointments. I would go up there, I was friends with the receptionist, they'd let me in, and I'd float the agencies, you know, and I was always smiling. I was not intrusive. But what I had was great work on my shoulder. And my first great photographer was this guy Harry De Zitter, that I brought from South Africa. And everybody and their mother wanted to work with him, and it was just amazing. But I was able to walk into agencies, and as time went on, you know, you make the appointments, and then I always floated and always had a agency book with five to eight pictures from each photographer. Some of my favorite work. And I'd go through it with art directors, so I wouldn't be showing books, but I'd send books later on if they wanted to see it, you know,

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

where for me, it was again them wanting me to get meetings. And we started doing agency showings. It became a really big deal to have a lunch and learn or a breakfast where we'd show up, we'd lay out our portfolios of our artists, we'd give them food because that would entice all of the creatives to come down and leave their desks and then we'd just follow up. Having a rep is a lot of that follow up and marketing and relationship making that you don't always have time to do as an artist at the level that you should be be doing it. Because as an artist, you always have to be reaching out on your own. But when you have that extra layer.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Of people who are kind of getting your name out there every day without you having to toot your own horn.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

It helps.

[Derek Fassbender]

Is it?

[Michael Ash]

I hated those luncheons, man. I resisted those all the time because people came down at 8 and then they split.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

That is very true. But I was the queen of finding the very cool and different places to cater from, just to have like a conversation starter with them. And I was doing this in New York. I started my career in New York, so I was living there for the first 10 years of being a rep.

[Michael Ash]

You know, I have a recollection that I started Robin Dickenberg in the business.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Interesting.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah. I kind of remember that because there were a lot of people that I started. Bill Charles. You remember Billy Charles?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I do, yeah.

[Michael Ash]

I started Billy because he was a photographer before he became an agent. And I got him involved with the business. A lot of people did. But, you know, it was a totally different time. It was fun, it was respectful. And then more and more agents came around and most of the people. I felt it was more about making money. And my entire career wasn't about making money. I did make money, but it was really about representing the finest of the finest and also finding talent that nobody knew and introducing them to the American market. That was the best.

[Derek Fassbender]

How much of a difference is it coming from the formal background of being a photographer? And Michael, you not. Is this a help or is it something where sometimes you're too close to the flame or how do you guys view this?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I mean, I think coming from studying photography, it informed how I looked at artists. But when you have a certain taste level, you don't need to study it to have that taste level or to learn to be around that and identify that.

[Michael Ash]

I agree.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah. I think when you. When you have a good eye, you have a good eye. And I got lucky that I got to go to school for it. I fell in love with photography while I was in school. I didn't go to school thinking, this is what I love to do. And to go back to your first question, I really fell into this. I met a automotive photographer and I was working in studio for him for two years before.

[Michael Ash]

Who was it?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Bob Stevens.

[Michael Ash]

I worked with Bob too.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Bob Stevens. He.

[Michael Ash]

Oh my God.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I was working in his studio in LA after graduating and before moving back to the east coast and I didn't know what I wanted to do. I just knew I loved photography. I didn't know you could be an art buyer, a photo editor. I just kind of fell into being a rep and I had my first call with Allegra Wilde. Do you remember Allegra Wild?

[Michael Ash]

Love her. Yeah, she's great.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I called Allegra Wild. I was given her phone number and I was a ballsy young adult. Like I was just, I'm moving back to New York. I'm from the east coast originally. I want to be in the photo world. What do I do? I hear there is this thing where you can be an agent or a rep. And she gave me a bunch of agencies to reach out to. And you know, I learned from people like Michael and Robin and Allegra and Candace Gelman and people who have been in the industry, yeah, a long time. When I learned what being a rep was, I fell in love with the idea of not having to work at an ad agency and having smaller companies. A lot of our rep companies are small. Like apostrophe is a little bit larger, but a lot of the companies I worked for were much smaller. And I loved the idea of working with artists on a day to day basis. It was really exciting. I mean, I interviewed at Cake Factory and Anderson Hopkins, but I ended up at Greenhouse for my first job. So I come at this from an understanding of where Michael was and then saying, how are we going to evolve and what's going to be different with my generation of reps?

[Michael Ash]

Yep.

[Derek Fassbender]

What are they looking at when you're applying and you're looking to get into this? Like, what are the qualifications? What are the skill sets that they're looking at?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Well, for me, I was very outgoing. You know, people would tell me I was a very natural salesperson. I would say that for me I can't sell anything, but I can sell what I'm passionate about. And I was passionate about the artists I represented. I was passionate about their work. I was a hobbyist. As a photographer. I never could do what they could do, lighting and the scale of production. So it's really being passionate, it's having a thick skin because you do go out there and do a lot of cold calling and introductions and you don't always get headway right away. It's A tenacity they're looking for.

[Derek Fassbender]

Interesting.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah, I think for me it was, you know, I didn't have to answer to anybody at the beginning or any time, but, you know, it was all about personality and commitment and authenticity, you know, because people would always think you're trying to sell. And I remember people telling that to me, and I was like, I'm not selling anything. I'm just showing you what I like. And I'm telling you about my talent. Whether it's the Zitter or Raymond Meyer or Dennis Menarche or Duncan Sim, any of these guys are magic photographers, you know. So I always tried to go to the people at the agencies and the magazines that I knew had great taste and did great work. And I found them from Communication Arts. Over the years, I would go through those magazines when they came out, see what they were doing, reach out to those art directors, commend them on the work that they were doing, and get to see them with some work. And it all led into, thank God, a really excellent, fun career.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now, Michael, JP mentioned producing. Is that something that was extensive back when you started or is that something that's kind of taken more of a role as the industry has changed today?

[Michael Ash]

It did not have anything to do with me when I was first starting. And as we moved on, the productions were being done by outside producers that were just coming into the business. So I had no interest in that at all. It was too tedious, you know, I wanted to get a job for my photographer and then move on and get another job, you know, I wanted to keep them working all the time, because the best photographers when they're working, because then they don't bug you because otherwise they're like, where's my next job? It's like, go shoot some more pictures, you know, give me some new work that I can go see somebody with.

[Derek Fassbender]

And what about you, jp? I mean, the production side, you get your hands a little dirty. You get into that creativity a little bit. Is that something that you thrive on?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yes. I really like the production side of things. Now, listen, when I was younger, I did line produce a few jobs, especially in the editorial world when I was first getting started, and smaller food jobs and things like that. We do outsource a lot of our production. As the industry has changed, Apostrophe has become a production company. We've had to. We've had to evolve. Reps don't just make money on commission anymore. Fees aren't what they used to be. So we have internal producers here. We Also still work with external producers when needed. But I would say I more executive produce jobs when they come in, certain jobs, because like Michael saying, I need to be out there getting the next job, getting the next thing. So when certain jobs come in, depending on what they are, if apostrophe is producing them in particular, I have my line producer, and then the buck stops with me. You know, the decisions that are being made based on the budget, based on the timeline, that is when I'm getting my hands a little bit more dirty. I am not the type of rep that just shows up for lunches anymore. Like, I'm there on set. If I have to work from set and be sitting there with my art producers and the creatives and getting my other work done while I'm there, it is important to be there. It's important to be part of that ecosystem, to show the teamwork, you know, especially when it's apostrophe led. It's like, we are your team. I am not just my photographer's rep. I am their last line of defense. I am the last line of defense for my line producer. And I'm there to make sure that the relationship with the agency and the creatives is staying strong. When we are outsourcing our production, I am not as involved in production at that point. I pass it off. I'm there if anyone needs me, but I'm back on my grind, going to find the next thing.

[Derek Fassbender]

It's like there's no days off. You're constantly evolving. That's never, I guess what you said earlier, it has to be something you're passionate about.

[Michael Ash]

Oh, totally.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah. This is my career, and it's just an extension of who I am. And I feel incredibly privileged and lucky to say that. I mean, not everyone gets that ability. And I do think, pulling from my education, I was able to kind of create a career in this and then have people, you know, I was lucky. I still came into this early enough where I was learning from people, people like Michael and people who had been in this industry a long time and could give me that foundational element that I don't think reps coming into the business now always get.

[Derek Fassbender]

Yeah, I love that. And I want to talk a little bit about the role and the relationships with clients and photographers. First off, how many photographers are you guys working with at any given time? Can you just give us, like, a roundabout number just so we know about what you're dealing with?

[Michael Ash]

Well, I'm not repping photographers anymore, but I don't think I had more than 10 photographers at the time. When I was by myself, there was a time that photographers were starting to do film. So I ended up joining Radical Media for about four or five years, I believe. And my goal, because they were worldwide, was to represent photographers and promote them worldwide. But I had an opportunity at Radical to bring other agents into me. So I work with people like Barbara von Schreiber and Frank Pavus and Judy Shin and Estelle Leeds and people like that that came in with photographers and we had like 30 or 40 photographers. But one of the reasons I was trying to do that is because the photographers were bidding against each other. And my goal at that time was trying to get the photographers in our house to bid against each other but stay true to the creativity. So the one that won the job was the one that was the best photographer, not the cheapest, you know what I mean? There was a time in the business, it's probably still now, where the bidding process and they go with the lowest bidder most of the time. And I wasn't interested in that. So it was something that happened. But we were having, I don't know, 40, 45 photographers at that time, but we had different agents to handle each set of photographers.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

And Jennifer, I will say every agency is set up differently. I've worked now at 14 agencies and everyone is set up a little differently where I currently am. And this was the same for probably Greenhouse as well. We promote a cross roster. We have about 25 to 30 on our roster at any given time. Mind you, we also have stylists on our roster here. So we have 25 to 30 artists, a mix of photographers, directors in the styling department. We promote a cross roster. However, we work in teams. And I am on the day to day business of five artists. I am their point of contact. I am that client's point of contact. Something comes into me for another photographer that is not on that day to day roster. I pass that off to my co rep. But we are lucky we're not in competition at all. I know that there are some agencies that it's very based on the work that you bring in for your individual photographers, but we're not like that. So it fosters a camaraderie between our reps. Like we're always cheering each other on because it's how the agency performs as a whole. But we do have about 30, I think on our roster right now.

[Derek Fassbender]

Interesting. And so with that environment that you described is someone might come in and it might come across your desk, but you're like, hey, this person over here I know they have somebody that might be better fit for this or they have a relationship. Is it kind of like in that way?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah. I mean the best example, my colleague Lauren, for instance, if someone comes in for our photographer, Justin Chung, she works with him on a day to day basis, I will loop her into that client immediately and just let them know. She's your point of contact for Justin. She is the person who knows his calendar, his way of working. She can estimate for him and we just pass it right off.

[Derek Fassbender]

Okay, and how much are clients reaching out directly to the photographers? Is that something that happens a fair bit?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Oh yeah.

[Derek Fassbender]

Okay.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I mean with social media, this has changed the landscape dramatically. It used to be it was your website, you had a contact on there. If you had a rep, they were likely to reach out to their rep. And even if they reached out to you, you were looping in your rep immediately because you didn't want to do or say the wrong thing off the bat. Now a lot of people, since it can be found via Pinterest or Instagram, they'll email the photographer still first and then they'll loop us in. And I will say, and you might lead to this question of we'll get there, I'm sure. But what is generated by the artist? What is generated by the rep? And how do you navigate that? That's an important question that we could talk about.

[Derek Fassbender]

Let's go with it. Why wait? Let's dig it open.

[Michael Ash]

I'm so glad I'm out of the business. It sounds very confusing.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I mean, listen, I led a platform for a long time called Found Artist. We were another one of those workbooks at Edge. We were similar to that. So I'm a big believer. Not everyone needs a rep and that's okay. When you do have a rep and you need that sort of assistance with your business, maybe it's because of volume of work, maybe it's just where you are are in your career that that is the team you want around you. Whatever inquiry comes in goes right to your rep. We are the ones estimating and negotiating and in my world, working hand in hand with my artists on those things. Including them or not including them as much as they would like. Some of my artists like to be involved in every step of the way. Some of my artists like me just to handle it and bring them in. When I'm saying, hey, this is what I think about your fees, do you agree? But we're always brought in. Michael, you are so happy to be out of this, especially as contract negotiations have become more and more complex with the addition of AI, with a lot of people wanting the buyouts that Michael was talking about and transfer of copyright. Oh my gosh, I have a freaking minor in law these days. I mean I'm so lucky I have legal counsel that I can talk to but. And at the same time I've had so many of these conversations, I can just pretty much go to bat now. So we really step in on that phase of things. But everything does come to us and it's not always about where the work comes from. Of course I want to be able to track jobs back to our outreach and what we're doing. But at the end of the day we do step in with a knowledge and a protection and a process that protects that relationship for our artists to keep it creative for them. And then business on our side so

[Michael Ash]

much there now they're asking for transfer of copyright. Are they paying for it? They paying for it?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I mean, I'm asking for them to pay for it. You know, transfer of copyright didn't always bother me in the sense if they were going to pay for it and if they were going to allow us to still use the work for self promotion rights and especially it depended on the client. Yeah, you know, I still in my contracts and this is a big note to photographers and everyone. You should still always have in your contract that they can't have use for third parties. Like they can buy it out for their own particular use, but you should never allowed third party meaning they can't sell it. It's hard to track. But even though they own it, they're not supposed to sell it to other people for commercial use. So there are a lot of nuances that you can kind of put into your contracts even when you have that. But what bothers me now is if you have a copyright buyout and then they want to take that and ingest that into their large language model, their AI learning, they can then use your content to iterate new work. And that is something I'm not okay with.

[Derek Fassbender]

Wow, Michael, I'm with you and what you said a little while ago. I'm like, wow, this even sounds complicated for me as a photographer. I might as well just stay in my lane over here. Is that from what you've seen, Jennifer, is that the majority of like what photographers are not understanding now or need education on? Where do you see the most room for photographers getting lost or places where you really have to step in and protect their interests?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

It really comes down to the contracts, it comes down to the fees. We work with a lot of emerging artists through our Amplify mentorship program. And nothing kills me more than seeing artists get taken advantage of and not wanting to put their foot down because they don't want to. Want to lose a job. And I don't blame them. They want that relationship. They want to get their foot in the door. But so many people get just taken advantage of and taken for a ride and don't know how to say no. Yeah, And I'm happy to say no for them.

[Derek Fassbender]

Can you go a little bit more in? Because I want to see. I know we talked about how you are like, you are it. You're the be all and end all, and you have to be there through the process. Are there any other parts of your job that really stand out or that people might not see? I think we all look at a agent as a rep, as like, all right, we're just getting jobs. We might protect them or we might guide them here. Are there any kind of unsung parts of the job that you guys really take on a big load for the photographer and help them through?

[Michael Ash]

Well, for me, it was editing that was my joy and really my expertise. And if a photographer wanted to work with me and didn't allow me to edit their work, I wouldn't work with them. Because most photographers are way too close to your work. And all you guys think everything you do is brilliant, but the reality is, when I look at somebody's work, like I do editing now for people that I'm showcasing on Instagram, or photographers that are coming to me that they know of me, I could look at somebody's work and within a half an hour of looking at their imagery and going through it, know exactly what they should be doing and putting together in my mind, a presentation that will allow the vision and the passion of that particular photographer to come through clearly. I don't know where the hell I got that from, but it's the most fun and easiest thing for me to do is to edit the photographer's work. And I believe that, at least in my experience, most photographers that worked with other agents were not being edited, and they did their own books and they put together their own work. And that's something that I just knew I could do better for them than they could do for themselves.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

And, Jennifer, that is a huge part of what we do. The editing, the guiding. You kind of can live in a vacuum as an artist. And as much as I encourage all of our artists to Do a competitive analysis. Never to compare themselves, but to see what the competitive landscape is. To see who is in their genre, who's creating the work they want to create. It's really important to guide them in portfolio curation and work creation that empowers their vision. So a lot of them can get lost. You know, I have a lot of artists who tell me they want to create for such and such client or they want to have a test shoot because they want to appeal to some sort of client. And that never really works. You have to create work out of passion, out of alignment with your vision. Something that shows your perspective. There's nothing wrong with seeing an ad and saying, God, I wish I shot that. But then to go out and create something like that, it won't do anything that's already out there. You got to think of what's next. You got to think vertically. I think that sort of guidance with our photographers, those long talks, those mind meld sessions that we have of what you want to create, what's missing in your portfolio right now, how can we expand upon something that's working for you? Those are conversations that I think are super invaluable to our artists. They have them with their peers and then they have them with us. And I think both sides of that coin inform them in a way that is really valuable to their portfolios. Because we see it from the commercial lens to an extent, and they might see it from more of an artistic lens. And it's really that combination of the two that I think creates a really dynamic portfolio. So I'm always having these conversations of what are you shooting? Because when you're not shooting for a client, you should be doing it for yourself. And it should be stuff that's fueling not just your portfolio for commercial purposes, but fueling your creativity.

[Michael Ash]

You know, jp, what you just said about the commercial side, what I did with the portfolios of the photographers is that their artwork is what was the showcase of their work.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Absolutely right.

[Michael Ash]

And then at the end of the book, I used to put like a postage stamp series in the back of three or four pages of the commercial work or the editorial work that they've done. So the advertising work and the editorial work took a second standing to the artwork. Cause the artwork to me was what told the heart and soul of the photographer.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Absolutely could not agree with you more.

[Derek Fassbender]

That's such an interesting perspective there. Cause I was wondering, how does this whole process begin? Are you guys reaching out? Especially nowadays, it's so easy. Like we had said with Social media, where you can be exposed to artists left and right and might see someone that's like, wow, this is somebody I would love to represent. Is. Does that ever happen, jp, or is it something where traditionally the artist is coming to you guys?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

No, it's definitely both. I am out there all the time looking for new artists and I'm really looking for people who have that perspective, have that unique vision. It's so tough these days. There's so much imagery out there. It's so ubiquitous. It's hard to create something that stands out. So when I see someone who has moving or still imagery that inspires me in some way, I'm absolutely reaching out and wanting to get to know them and wanting to get them know their process. Yeah. And then other people are reaching out to us as well. I. I don't actually have as much success with the people that are reaching out to us directly.

[Michael Ash]

For me, it's like in my career, it was mostly people coming to me. You know, I would find certain people, like a Dennis Menarche, whose work I was out of my mind for in the late 80s into the early 90s. And I finally reached out to him when I was resigning from a Guy De Zitter, who came to me from South Africa. But Minarche's work was so out of this world at that time. He did Zoom magazine covers, he did, you know, wonderful Nike work and Apple work at that time.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Was it Apple?

[Michael Ash]

I don't know if he did Apple. He did Apple later on, but I went to Menarkee. I called him up because I loved his work and I said, look, I don't know if you know who I am, but call anybody in New York and ask them about me, and if you want, I'll come to Chicago tomorrow. And I got a call back from his in house agent the next afternoon saying, come to Chicago, Dennis wants to meet you. So I went to Chicago the next day and I was representing him by lunchtime, you know, but most of the time people were reaching out to me. Like a guy like Raymond Meyer. Raymond was recommended to me in like 1987, 1988. And he came to my loft in New York and I looked at his work. I think I looked at four or five pictures and I said, okay, I want to represent you. And he was from Zurich. And he looked at me and said, you sure? I said, yeah, I'm sure. He says, well, okay. And he went back to Zurich and he called me back about two weeks later and he said, you got to come to Zurich and meet my parents before I move to New York. So I thought, okay. So I went to Zurich for a week and met with his family and blah, blah, blah. And Raymond came. And the first year and a half, I couldn't get the guy arrested because his work was so different and so unique. And finally we scored this project from this company called To Boot. It was a shoe store that I went into the actual store on 72nd and Columbus 1 day, and the owner was there, and I met with him, showed him Raymond's book, and he gave us a project. Raymond did it, and it got into communication Arts. And from then on, we exploded. It was unbelievable.

[Derek Fassbender]

What are some of these things that you guys are looking for? I mean, the vetting process. I mean, can you really just look at somebody's work and decide, is this somebody I want to work with? Like Michael, you talked about earlier in the fight, if they won't let you edit your photos, that's a. That's a red flag to you. Are there any other red flags or something? That is just an innate characteristic that you sense in somebody that you're like, you know what? This is the one. This is somebody I want to represent.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I have a process for this. I have. I have what I call the 4P's of Photography for this.

[Michael Ash]

This is interesting.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah, this has stuck with me for over a decade. The first is your portfolio. You know, I'm looking at your portfolio. I'm looking to see if you have a distinct point of view. I'm looking to see if there's something in here that I feel is sellable. The second is your personality. Yeah, I really. I've worked with some incredible people who just are either too quiet or too snarky or just, you know, you're. I'm getting you on a creative call. So many projects can be won in a creative call where you are talking to the creative. So a project comes in, you know, we. We have this request for a proposal. They want to talk to our photographers before we even put an estimate or a treatment together. We are getting on that call and talking to the creatives. And this is your opportunity to show to the creatives that you are the person to bring their project to life. And that is a skill set. So I really need someone to have the type of personality where they are not necessarily shy. They're all different kinds of personalities that work for this. But it's a big part of the package. The third P is your production acumen. Now, you can create a great picture, but what do you know about production. Do you have a team around you already? Is that something that I need to educate you on and bring to you? Which can be fine, especially as an emerging photographer, but getting that production acumen, understanding what it's like to spend a $500,000 budget, who you need on your crew, from your assistants to your art department to your production department, having a understanding of that is very important to me. The last P for me is how prolific are you? And what I mean by that is, are you continuing? Like, are you actually someone who wants to continue to create work? The best photographers that I found, you know, they were creating work and creating portfolio long before they had an agent. And it is just their desire to continue to create new work, to evolve, to stay true to their vision, to stay true to their aesthetic, but continue to evolve. So those are like the four things I'm really looking for when I start to speak with an artist.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah, for me, it was personality. The work was obviously the key, but personality was really important. And I didn't want to work with some curmudgeon that was miserable all the time. I wanted to work with someone that was passionate. I wanted to work with someone that loved what they were doing, they believed in what they were doing. And it's funny, you know, on conference calls with the photographers, I made sure I was on every single call for the creative calls, because you never knew what they were going to say or what they weren't going to say. So it was really important to be able to guide and orchestrate those calls. And I had a bunch of photographers like Kenji Toma and Kenji Aoki that didn't speak English. We always, when they were in New York, we had interpreters. So I made sure that I was on those calls because it was key, because these guys, they don't even understand English. So we had interpreters in New York. We had interpreters in Tokyo when they were over in Tokyo, but when they came to New York, we had interpreters. And it was important to be involved in those calls because the Japanese are wonderful, wonderful, brilliant talents, but they don't emote such emotion. You know what I mean? So you have to be there to guide the ship for them so they get the opportunity to do the kind of work that the creatives are seeing in their work that make them magic.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now, Micah, you just said something that made me think of a question, you know, in talking, that's, you know, something culturally with the Japanese, they may not be as emotive, right? And some other cultures might be very Emotive, you have somebody in. So for both of you guys, you're dealing with the creative.

[Michael Ash]

Right.

[Derek Fassbender]

There's a pitch in front of them, and you have one that says, you know, yeah, definitely, I'll take it. It's not really my style, but I'm willing to take it on. I want to do this. And you have somebody who's like, you know what? Not really my style. I'm going to pass on it. Is it more about knowing your strengths and weaknesses and staying in your lane or somebody who. Who is willing to go put themself out there?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I think it depends. I mean, you have to know when to say no to a job.

[Michael Ash]

Absolutely.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

You have to know when to say, this isn't the right fit for me, and it be okay. You don't want to ever take on a job that you can't deliver on. If it's pushing you out of your comfort zone, that's one thing. But if it's stylistically such a departure, you have to ask yourself and the client, what do you see in my work that you want to bring me on for this?

[Derek Fassbender]

Yeah.

[Michael Ash]

I also think that, you know, the turning down jobs was. Was really important because it kept you focused on what you want to do. And you can't just take a job because it's there for the taking, and there's a lot of money to be made. Because what happens is you only have one chance to make a first impression. You do that job, you make the money, but you never get another job from that person because the job sucks, you know, so it's really important to do the right type of projects that allow you to shine every time. Because when you screw up, what you only have in this business is your reputation. And if you screw your reputation, you know, it spreads real quick. You know, it's really important to keep, you know, things about what you do and how you do it at a very, very high level and a very real, authentic level.

[Derek Fassbender]

I had my very first commercial job. My mentor, it was pitched to him. He said, this isn't really my style. I have somebody who's studying under me. It's more fit to him. And I asked him afterwards, you know, why would you kick this? He said, I didn't want to say no. I didn't want the weld to turn off. Got them what they needed. And I showed them that if I can't help them, I'm going to help facilitate somebody. I know what they want, what they need. Everything worked out good. So it's just always interesting to me to know, because I think that is something that artists struggle with is when do I turn down a job, when do I puff my chest out and say I got this? And I think you guys both had great points there. I think you do need to stay in your lane and know when you're putting out something that is not true to who you are. But also you can't be, you know, as you guys said, you don't want that person that's shy or timid or doesn't exude that confidence.

[Michael Ash]

So, you know, it's something that I remember going doing very, very often because I used to get a lot of projects sent to me for the people that I was representing and turning down the job, but then recommending somebody else that you think is better for the job. That always was great credibility for me as an agent. And people were like, why are you giving that away? It's like, because it's not right for us, but it's right for that guy.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I absolutely believe that and agree 100%. I will even send people to other agents if I know that their roster has someone. It just, it helps us all in the long run. We're trying to foster that kind of community and we're not going to be the right fit for everyone.

[Michael Ash]

Right.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

That's okay.

[Michael Ash]

Yep.

[Derek Fassbender]

I love that a rising tide raises all ships and.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Exactly.

[Michael Ash]

But you got to know when that is. Oof.

[Derek Fassbender]

Yes, yes, definitely. Well, that's key. So great time to take a short break. So let's stand up, stretch, shake it out. If you're already standing, have a seat, relax, and when we come back, we'll continue a rousing discussion about working with photography reps and agents, whatever you want to call them. With Michael Ash and Jennifer Perlmutter,

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[Derek Fassbender]

And we are back with Michael Ash and Jennifer Perlmutter. Now, during the break, you know, sometimes you just flow during the break and the topic comes up and you're like, we need to seize on that. So that just happened. Jennifer and you were talking about this idea of a individual becoming a brand or being a brand. And that is something that is so relevant now. We hear it all the time about you need to become a brand and marketing yourself. And branding is so important and special. I want to hear your thoughts on it because you had some interesting thoughts over the break.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Now, I know that this is not a popular opinion. A lot of people will say you need to brand yourself. And I'm not saying you shouldn't have great branding on your site. Something that's memorable, something that fits your aesthetic. But a brand as a person has never felt true to me. Brands to me are things like deodorant. To me, you might have a solid physical brand, which I think is important, something that people can remember. But your emotional brand is your personality. That is who you are. And I don't want for me personally to see that be different when you are on set than who you are in real life. So for me, your emotional brand is really just who you are as a person. And that doesn't need to be categorized as a brand. That's just your personality. It's your ethos, it's your mission statement. It is your values. That is what your emotional brand is. So I'll forever in a day say, yes, make your physical brand strong. But your emotional brand is nothing more than who you are as a person and why people want to keep working with you.

[Michael Ash]

100% agree.

[Derek Fassbender]

Is it something where if you. I want to dive more into this. I think this is such an interesting topic. Is it more a conflating of the two where when you lose your personality to be the brand, it's. You lose just that, your personality should you hang on to what makes you you and focus less on making whatever you've branded yourself as, your entire personality?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah. You lose authenticity that way.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah. You gotta stay true to who you are always.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

If you get locked in on this one thing that you've become, it makes it really hard to evolve and for other people to see or understand that Evol. I used to use this term, be the Madonna of photography. You know, Madonna went through so many different decades and evolved as an artist. And sometimes we were on board, sometimes we were like, maybe not. But at the end of the day, like, you can't be so locked into this brand that you forget you're a person and that other people forget you're a person.

[Michael Ash]

Right.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I think that's why so many people get lost on social media. They become this brand that people eventually stop treating as human.

[Derek Fassbender]

That's right where I was leading into it. Jennifer, it feels like even the people who are trying to be different have just joined another group where it's like nobody's original. How do you set yourself apart? Like Michael, you talked about in the first half, one of your artists, that it took a while for people to come around because what they were doing was so out there and people weren't ready for that. Raymond Meyer, when is that a problem? As somebody who's, hey, I need to get you, you work. Do you draw the line or do you say, you know what, I'm gonna ride with this person. I might focus on, if I have five photographers, I'm gonna focus on the four and I'm just kind of going to treat this person as an investment that I'm going to sit on.

[Michael Ash]

Well, yeah, I mean, when I had Raymond, I was representing menarche and Richard Noble and Bob Grigg and Gregory Heisler. But like I said, it took almost two years to get him going. I didn't care if I made any money from him. He came to New York with 100 grand in his pocket and he knew that it was going to be a tough ride. And we were pretty much towards the end of his money and he was getting ready to go back home and we scored this project called to boot and he got into communication arts and everything changed from there. And he evolved to doing beauty and his still life work. I mean, to me he was the modern day Irving Penn. He was just brilliant and he's still brilliant. But you know, when people didn't see what I saw, it didn't stop me. It just motivated me more to continue with Raymond's work. Cause he was always testing and doing new work. So I was always able to get back to see people. Cause people loved his work but they didn't know what to do with him. So it was just a matter of continuing to see people presenting new work and passion. So they finally came around and gave us opportunities.

[Derek Fassbender]

And Jennifer, being that you have really come up in again, 2006 is early, early, early days. I think we're probably still, you know, almost a Decade off of really seeing this surge of social media, but back to this idea of being yourself, setting yourself apart, blending in. I mean, there's just a ton of oversaturation now online in the industry. What do you advise people, especially younger people who have grown up? I mean, we're reaching a generation of people that grew up online. How are you advising people to maintain their originality and uniqueness? And at the same time, is it okay to blend in?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Oh, my God. It's such a tough question. It's a really tough question. I.

[Michael Ash]

Listen, do you want me to answer?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I'll say this. What is inspiring me from young people right now is a re engagement with analog formats and people going back to film, people going back to the history of what made photography an art, not a commodity. And I really have appreciation for that now. And so when people are just your Instagram photographer, your pointer and shoe, you know, I see that and there's a place for that. But I think to stand out these days, for me at least, it's a re engagement with what made photography so great in the first place.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah. You know, it's funny because I'm doing a series now for my Instagram, which is finding Instagram talent that I love. And I don't find many, but what I do find in the Instagram photographers is that they do so many different things, and that's the death to a talent, being able to focus on what he does best. So, like I said, I've done some edits for these people, and I just change the course of who they are and how they present themselves. So it's really important for people to hone their vision, especially where you could show everything that you ever shot in your life online to really be very specific in what you want to present and who you are as an agent. Earlier in my career, I remember photographers like Harry Dezitter or Rodney Smith. And with Dezitter, when he came from South Africa, we had three different books. One was cars, one was still life, and one was landscapes. When Rodney Smith, when I first met with him, he showed me these gigantic prints that he wanted me to handle with white gloves when I first met him, and I said no. And he went through the stuff, and I loved his work and I took him on, but I saw three different categories in his work, and it was important for that work to be seen, but not as one. So we made a slip case book that had still life, landscapes, and fashion. So I wanted their work to be seen, but separately, same thing online. It needs to be Seen consistent with a look. Otherwise, people don't know what they're looking at. You know what I mean?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I love Rodney's work.

[Michael Ash]

Oh, he was. He died about six, seven years ago.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Oh, man.

[Michael Ash]

But he was also really difficult to get started at the beginning because he only shot black and white. He only shot on location. And every single shoot, he had to go to location at least 10 days before to see how the light was falling. That was crazy. But it was so much fun working with him because he was such a space shot, but so brilliant. One of my favorite pictures he did was for the New York Times Magazine, and it was a shot on the dock where there's four or five people. I think they're on ladders and they have umbrellas and in the background is the Trade Centers. Gorgeous. But he was great. And his wife was Leslie Smolin from Carbone Smolin. She and I worked really closely when we did the book together. It was really fun. He was amazing. Amazing talent.

[Derek Fassbender]

And Michael, what you're talking about there with Rodney having to go Visit the location 10 days before and JP, you talking about this return to the analog process and the romanticism of that. I think it's. We hearken back to this day of film because you had to be an artisan. You really had to know your craft.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah.

[Derek Fassbender]

And know how to perfect it. And you had to know the chemistry. You had to really have an eye. And technology for all the great things it's done. It's made everybody a photographer, and it's really just been, okay, rinse, repeat, and you can spit out a thousand images in a minute. And we've kind of, I think, thrown up all over the paper, so to speak.

[Michael Ash]

I agree, I agree.

[Derek Fassbender]

Rather than, hey, we're going to focus and, you know, throwing paint at a wall. An artist can throw paint at a wall and make it look good. Most of us are going to throw paint at a wall, and it looks like you're throwing paint at a wall. And the process looks much the same, but there's an intention to creating. Is that something that you're finding more now? I mean, are we tired of the Internet and social media? Is that. Do you think we're finding people who are going back and they're. They're looking for intention and they're just bored with this process of carbon copy and everything and rinse, repeat.

[Michael Ash]

I hope so.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I'd like to believe that. If you look at the quote unquote, trend reports, which I. I have to look at. Listen, there's this whole 2016 trend right now, that's going to pass and that's going to fade, and it's going to be in. In the past in a minute. However, there is a push right now for that nostalgia. It is a very fraught time in our societal landscape, and people are being drawn to nostalgia. What that looks like is to me, again, creating from the heart, creating things that feel real. We are living in a time where everything you see, you're questioning if that is real or not. So the push in advertising is to make sure that you are connecting and trust what you're seeing. And so that is a huge push. Like Equinox. Equinox has a great ad out right now, and they are using AI in this ad, but they are mocking it in a way because they're trying to remind you that the only thing you can believe is yourself. And, you know, because we're living in a time where people say, you know, you could see something and hear something, and they're still telling you it's not true.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

So we are in this. In this time right now where I think people, especially the generation coming up behind me, are tired. They don't want things that feel just like they're being sold to.

[Michael Ash]

Right.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

They want to feel a connection. They want to feel a sense of shared values. And so that is really going to show up in our advertising in this year. That's what I truly believe. And, you know, some of it will come in trends because we'll see that on social media and TikTok, but there's a lot of people who are pushing against that trajectory right now.

[Michael Ash]

That's good to hear, because I know that's what we. Early part of my career and through most of my career was really about authenticity and realism and capturing moments depending on the photographer. I mean, let me ask you something, Jennifer. Where do they run ads now?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Oh, my God, everywhere. TikTok, Pinterest, ChatGPT, ChatGPT you can shop through now. It's insane. Like, speaking of Rodney Smith before, one of my favorite photographs of Rodney Smith is the couple kissing on top of the taxi cabs. Oh, yeah, that's one of my favorite ones that though you could create in CGI so easily, put 100 yellow taxi cabs from New York and da, da, da, you know, and that was created in real life.

[Michael Ash]

That was for real.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

You know, people want to feel that connection again, I think. So that feels good for me. I think there's a place for AI. Don't get me wrong, there's a place for AI and processes, but there's not really a place for AI and art. I hate to say that so defiantly, but that is what I believe, at least today.

[Michael Ash]

Jennifer, let me ask a question.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah.

[Michael Ash]

The thing that we found early in my career is that people didn't want to spend the big money in production like I was working. I remember there was a photographer, Joe Toto and Tony Petrocelli and even Steve Steigman at that time. They were doing all these big sets and stuff, and all of a sudden that stuff collapsed because the clients didn't want to pay all that money anymore. So they simplified the projects. And I found that a lot of those photographers went out of business because they didn't know what else to do. But to hear that it might be going backwards to get ahead and being more authentic is lovely, really lovely. But you have one other question about where do they run the ads? What kind of money does TikTok pay or chat GDP? What are they paying? 150 bucks.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Now listen, listen. Okay, here's the thing. There are a lot of different usages. And what happened with advertising dollars is that it became more fragmented. You didn't just have your TV and then your print. Now we have your tv, your print, your social, your influencer. So it became that the money was just spread out more. Right now I still have print campaigns. Almost 90% of my print campaigns have a motion component. All of my photographers do motion. Not all of my photographers have become directors. We do have several who have become legit directors, do live action work. And that is our sweet spot right now. We might not be doing your huge commercials, but we're doing a lot of that intermediary work where our motion campaigns are showing up on your streaming channels. You know, I actually worked on a commercial actually last year that did show up on my TV at the gym. I was like, this is incredible. I worked on that. It's just fragmented. There are still budgets out there. It's not that there aren't budgets, they just aren't necessarily what they were when I got started in this industry. And the usage is very big and we don't always get to charge usage, but we still fight for it. And that's another good thing about having a rep, is someone who's going to fight to get you paid what you deserve to be paid, what industry standards should be. There are always people who will undercut you. But we still fight for all of that because, well, you have to. Yeah, I'm like, that's my job. You know, is to educate. I do a lot of educating, especially with people who are coming up, especially with brand direct jobs, which is something to think about. It's not just about working for agencies. There are so many incredible direct to brand companies and we're talking anything from your big tech to your smaller beauty brands. There are so many great direct to brand shoes, and some of them don't have great day rates necessarily, but they have great creative. And then you make relationships with the people who are working there, and then those art directors or creative directors go somewhere else. It creates that big network for you. So those type of jobs where the day rate might only be 4,500 or 5,000 or something like that, it's like a little triangle, like fast, hard, cheaper, whatever. Like, I look at it as like, you have your jobs that have a ton of budget and they also have great creative and they have great people. That is like the ideal, right?

[Michael Ash]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

But there are times where you have not a great budget, but the creative is awesome.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

And the people are cool and you want to make that work. And then sometimes you have not a great budget. The creative is not great, but the people are great. And then you kind of have to decide, is this a job that we pass on and say, hey, we'd love to work with you. This is just not the right fit. And that is often what we tell people, but it's looking at those sides of the triangle and deciding what's worth it. You know, is this great for my pocket? I'll never show it, but I'll go and create more work from it. Is this great for my relationship building or is this just great for my portfolio and I'm willing to take a hit on the money.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

There's three things to always consider on these jobs.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah. Wow.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now, jp, one of the things that I hear from a lot of my friends who are commercial photographers is about the level of taste in today's commercial jobs. I forget the line, but the basic sentiment was I want them to bring taste back where we're putting on the best and the talent in, you know, where it feels like now commercial jobs are going to people who maybe aren't deserving, but they have a huge following. It's analytics. And this is somebody who has a smaller following. And he's like, you know, I was working on 50, 60, $100,000 commercial jobs, and now that's going to somebody who, because they have half a million followers, but they stink.

[Michael Ash]

But they're not good photographers. Right.

[Derek Fassbender]

And that's the conversation I want to have, you know, we talked about trends and we talk about this inevitable influencer bubble that if it hasn't already popped, it's probably very shortly on the way. Or is it. I mean, I'm talking as somebody who's not on your side of the industry, somebody who's not in these rooms, not in these conversations. How is it out there? What is it looking like? Is it something that, you know, legit photographers who have busted their butt to put out great work and do it the right way are now seeing jobs going to somebody who is less talented, and we're seeing the degradation of taste in work going to somebody just because of analytics.

[Michael Ash]

That's unbelievable.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I know, Michael, you're glad to be missing this part.

[Michael Ash]

I know. I lose my mind.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah.

[Michael Ash]

I mean, my wife is an actress and she loses projects to people sometimes that have more followers. It's ridiculous.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah. I mean, SNL is now looking at like. Like TikTok comedians, please.

[Derek Fassbender]

Like, where do we draw a line?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Where you draw the line is. Here's what I have found. Not that I don't want to generalize, because I know some really amazing photographers who I have met through social media, who I have interacted with, asked, you know, I was curious about representation with them, and they basically said, hey, I have a flourishing business without you, I don't need it. Totally understand. There are some of them who make really good money and have built a good business for themselves and consistent businesses. But I've also found that a lot of those people are one woman, one man shows they are, especially with still life. They are creating everything. You know, they're doing the set design, they're doing all the things. Even with food photographers, they're doing the food styling and the recipe developing and this and this and this. And they are doing a lot of. And not getting the day rates that we could potentially get for them, not getting the level of jobs. A lot of that is still content creation because you need that content all the time. So the bigger campaigns, they might not be landing, and a lot of the times they're not landing because when they can have the bigger budgets, they come to people like me, and then they're like, oh, we have the money. We want to work with this person. So it's just a different business model. It's not that one is right or wrong. There are people who have great flourishing businesses who do this, but it tends to be that, like, quote unquote, content creation versus, you know, having a more robust commercial career

[Derek Fassbender]

and going back to this idea of trends, you know, we talked about, I laughed when you said the 2016 trend. And I'm like, the ship has already sailed. And that's the thing with trends now. It's like you no longer get on it, then it's gone and it's in the past. And then not only you're late on it, but now it's like you've already snapped yourself. As I'm not current, it's a red flag to post, translate. But how do you stay ahead of the curve? How do you know a trend that's going to be worth jumping on? I feel like sometimes trends can be murky waters where if you jump in on it and you're one of those people who sits around all day or is very creative and has nothing better to do, and you can jump on it right away and put something out there really good, it's great. But if you're somebody who isn't perpetually online and you might be a day behind, then it can be a detriment to you. How do you see ahead of the curve? And I think this whole discussion leads into a much broader topic in terms of social media and the way that's trending as a whole. Where are we next? I mean, If Instagram and TikTok start to go the way of vine and Tumblr, what's next?

[Michael Ash]

I have no clue.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Everyone going offline again.

[Derek Fassbender]

We gonna meet in person now? I'm with it.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

We go meet in person. And I mean, that is something that the generation behind us, which I was worried were going to be perpetually online, are starting to not want. I mean, you even see, you know, companies like Snap coming out. Snap Camera. Have you heard of them? It's a digital camera, but it has no backup.

[Derek Fassbender]

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Like the Camp Snap. Camp Snap, yep.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I love my Camp Snap camera because it's so much fun. It's digital, but I can't see it, I don't know, until I plug it into the computer. I wanted to say something to what Michael said earlier about the usage for web. You know, it was really hard to convince people to pay for web because we were thinking as an agent, like, listen, this is worldwide, whatever, but it's so ephemeral. It comes and it goes. It's not something that's a lasting impression, really. And that's why we have the influencers and stuff. Like, you see direct ROI from those influencers because they're telling a certain group of of people to buy something, and then they do, right? But when we were trying to convince people like, this is a worldwide usage, no one gave a shit. You know, they were like, it's there today and it's gone tomorrow, and it's covered by 10 other things. So I want to bring that back to the question you just asked, which you might have to remind me of now, because that just took me on a little bit of my own tangent.

[Derek Fassbender]

No, I love it. You were in your bag.

[Michael Ash]

I was just want to say one thing because I remember when the worldwide stuff first started out, and we also, you know, we wanted to speak big numbers, like a buyout or something like that. They wanted to pay you, like, 1500 bucks. It was like, are you kidding me? This is worldwide. Blah, blah, blah. But like I said, that's what got me to start leaning to get out. It really became less fun and more of the clients who have tons and tons of money not paying for the people that are creating who you are.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah. You know, that actually reminded me what I was gonna say. So as for trends, like, I think it's about trying not to follow them. I think this is the whole thing for artists. You don't have to hop on the current trend. You don't need to create the new trend. You need to create what's true to you, what's true to your vision, and then know that there are enough people out there that there is your niche. There are the people who are gonna love what you're doing. Things move too quickly these days. Yeah. Like I said, the 2016 thing was here. Nostalgia is here to stay, I think for a little while. People are really yearning that. But I don't think it's about creating a new trend as much as it's continuing to create new work that feels truly aligned with who you are and what you want to see out there. Because if you're constantly chasing something and trying to create something, it's going to lose that. I hate this term, but it's going to lose that authenticity. We throw that word around where it's become almost meaningless, but it really is, I think, for the true people who want to create because they love photography and they love film and they love all that comes to it. You know, commercial is just one avenue of income for you.

[Michael Ash]

Right.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

It's one way for you to make a commodity of what you do, but it's not who you are. You know, that's just one part of something that you love to do that makes you money. And then the other part is, do you truly love to create and let

[Michael Ash]

that just come from within and feed your soul.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah, I still believe that. That is one thing that has not changed from when Michael got into this business to now is the people who inspire me are the people who create because they love to create, not because they're trying to. To be something or make money or the money comes when you are in

[Derek Fassbender]

that alignment and pairing that with that idea of nostalgia. Jennifer, I love that. And I think part of that leans into the era before this digital and social media age was pure. It was something that there wasn't a trade off. It wasn't like, okay, well that tastes good, but it's horrible for you. It's gonna kill your body on the inside. It was, it was pure, it was interaction. We went outside, we got hurt. Everything was just this really authentic lifestyle. Whereas now we're putting on a show, I'm putting on a mask and I'm just going online and it's like, you know, I talk about it all the time with other creatives about the idea of creating content to push your real work. Because that's what you have to do to get seen in today's society versus the people who are out there just creating content. And there is no work, it is just the content. And I think this idea of nostalgia harkens back to a time when there was authenticity and it wasn't about just this Pick me ism of hey, look over here, look at me, what I'm doing. You know, it's like your kid when they're a toddler and they're saying, dad, look, dad, look, dad, look. And you look over there and it's nothing.

[Michael Ash]

You know what was really cool when I was first coming up, they're shooting film and they're using a Polaroid. You don't know what you got until two days later when you're developing the film. So it wasn't like you're on set and perfecting what you're doing. There was a real, like I say again that word authenticity and a spontaneity about your work. And sometimes wonderful mistakes were made that weren't corrected in the computer as you're shooting. You know what I mean? So there was a sense of not really knowing if you got the picture and it didn't come out until you've developed the film.

[Derek Fassbender]

The patience. Yeah, there's something about that patience. It was like you lived for it.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah, it was awesome. I mean, you know, when you're shooting, I remember working with this photographer very early in my career. Harold Krieger and Harold did all the jockey underwear stuff with Jim Palmer, the baseball player, and it was so much fun to work with him. He would shoot 8 by 10 and you'd have a Polaroid and a couple of hours later, a couple of days later, you'd see the film. It wasn't so predictable and that's what made it really special.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now this is the perfect segue, JP into apostrophe. Having a very active mentorship program. And as we talk about shaping the younger minds of today and dealing with, you know, all the positives and negatives of social media, let's say that what do you tell your younger creatives and what are some of the things that come up through mentorship that you're using to shape the young minds?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Well, our mentorship is actually really geared towards the business of photography. These are people who have incredible portfolios and we are doing a 12 week program teaching them everything from how to create your own llc, bringing in our lawyers to talk to them about contracts and things like that, bringing in our finance people to talk to them about billing, then our visuals team talking about how they present their work, what the work they should present is, and then obviously talking to the agents myself about the marketing and how they're getting their work out there. And a lot of that is still having your website, kind of your storefront. But websites, it's just declining viewership, having a strong presence on social media, keeping it kind of another portfolio, if you will. Obviously having a little bit of a light personal touch so someone gets to know you. But the idea is I don't want someone to have to know you just based off what they're seeing online. I want you to leave that air of mystery that makes them want to meet you.

[Derek Fassbender]

Nice. I love that. Michael, did JP convince you to get back in the game now?

[Michael Ash]

Only as a consultant. Like I said, the thing that I love more than anything is any. It's.

[Derek Fassbender]

Come on. I know a couple Instagram photographers who would love to have you rep them.

[Michael Ash]

Believe me, I've had a lot of people ask me to do it and I've turned them down because my style of what I did, even when the Internet first started was I used to go on my bicycle and ride to every one of my appointments and I had this one portfolio that had a selection of work from the talent that I represented. And it was all about going to see people in person and touching them and feeling them and then touching the work. And that's something that I never would give up. And if I ever did go Back. It has to be that way. And I know people are so busy. They were always so busy then as well. But thank goodness I had a reputation of representing great people. So they wanted to see me, you know, but probably everybody that I worked with are out of the business or freelancing by now or something like that. But to me, what was special about the business was the personal connections that you made with the people that you were promoting to and the photographers that you were representing. It was a family. It was just so special that you can go to an art buyer, a creative director, go to Kathy Ryan at the New York Times, and she would open up her door to see you. To me, I thought the most visionary people out there were the photo editors of the magazines, right? They were able to look at somebody's work, not basically see exactly what they wanted to do, but they felt the work. And I wanted to work with people that were able to feel the quality of the people that I was representing and feel my passion as well.

[Derek Fassbender]

Now, we already talked about the AI thing as we close this out. Where do we go from here? Where do you guys recommend people look towards in terms of a skill set? Is there something that you guys have a beat on where you recommend, hey, maybe look towards this, maybe verse yourself in this. Is there anything that people should have on their radar as far as preparing for the future from where we are right now?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

I think having your pulse on AI is important. I think having a good understanding of how you can use it in your post production process, how you can use it in your pitching can be really helpful. Having just a general understanding of the landscape in terms of usage to make sure you're protected from larger companies using your imagery in their large language models to train future iterations of your work. I think knowing that is very important. I think it's still about. As Michael and I said, the thing that'll never change is creating from the heart, creating for your vision. You don't have to come from art school or whatever. A lot of the people I know are people who have picked up cameras at some point in their life and fell in love with the medium. I do think you have to keep your eye out on some of the content that's coming out there. I still look at magazines, I still look at online stuff, I look at ads because I want to know what's relevant. So keeping yourself generally informed on that kind of stuff is great. But at the end of the day, you want your art to influence the creative, not the other way around.

[Michael Ash]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Derek Fassbender]

Wonderful, wonderful. Now, Jennifer, any recent upcoming projects, any events that people should keep their eye on on your side?

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Oh, my God. Networking is so important. Go to all the events that you can find. Become part of the apa. Come to our focus on women events. If you're a female photographer, I heard a lot of men, men's names on here, and there were a lot of men in the commercial industry. There are just as many women and people of color. And part of our mentorship program is breaking down those walls and giving access to more of these incredible artists. So really getting involved in your community, I think is important. The APA is always doing cool things. And, yeah, feel free, people. You can find my email on the interwebs. You can always email me.

[Derek Fassbender]

Love it. And Michael, your side.

[Michael Ash]

You know, I did a series on my Instagram that was called behind the Scenes, and I talked about stories and showed pictures of photographers that I've represented, and that was kind of fun. And I think I did like 45 episodes of that. And recently I've been combing Instagram and finding photographers that I really love. And I just talk a little bit about the talent. There was this photographer that I saw from Jordan. He's on my. Michael Ash Underscore Original is my Instagram. And this guy is brilliant. He's a portrait photographer. He shoots natural light. He has one of these reflectors that he uses sometimes and a black piece of fabric. His portraits are stunning. It's fun looking on Instagram and promoting people. And I'm just hoping that I get more opportunities to help photographers find their way and be able to see what they do best and then evolve from that point and using that as a stepping stone to evolve and grow more so. And I think that's something that is really beneficial for talent to know what they do best and to do that instead of trying to do everything, you just gotta create a presence of who you are, how you see whatever you're photographing, the light, the composition, the passion. And if that comes through in your portfolio, whether it's on Instagram or printed portfolio, good people will recognize that and they'll give you opportunities to work with them.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Wow.

[Derek Fassbender]

So much great insight and information, advice, and perspective here today. I want to thank you both for joining us.

[Jennifer Perlmutter]

Yeah, thank you for having me.

[Michael Ash]

Thank you. That was so much fun.

[Derek Fassbender]

Well, definitely it was. And to all of our listeners out there, thank you for joining us today as well. If you are a fan of the show but are not yet a subscriber, head on over to Apple podcasts Spotify, B H's YouTube channel, or wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. You can also find us on the Explorer Blog where we post photos from our guests along with our show notes. I'm your host, Derek Fosbender. Jill Waterman is our creative producer. Episodes are recorded, mixed and edited by technical producer Mike Weinstein, and our Executive producer is Richard Stevens. On behalf of us all, thank you so much for tuning in today.

[Jill Waterman]

Thanks to Samsung for sponsoring this week's episode.