Skyfall

Summary

Big Ideas Lab – "Skyfall" (May 5, 2026) Host: Mission.org Episode Theme:
An inside look at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory’s Skyfall program—a cutting-edge experimental testbed designed to understand, simulate, and defend critical infrastructure from cyber and physical threats. The episode blends real-world disaster stories, the psychology of trust in infrastructure, and next-gen approaches to security, including AI and immune system-inspired defenses.

---

Episode Overview

The episode explores how societies depend on invisible networks of trust embedded in critical infrastructure—like energy grids—and what happens when attackers, software failures, or cascading events compromise these systems. Featuring firsthand accounts from Lawrence Livermore’s leading scientists, the episode dives into the creation, purpose, and future of Skyfall, a unique testbed enabling safe and comprehensive simulations of catastrophic scenarios. From the chilling Ukraine grid attacks to the U.S. blackout of 2003, the discussion lays bare both the sophistication of modern threats and the innovative defenses being developed.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cyber Attacks on Infrastructure: The Ukraine Case

• The episode opens with a vivid retelling of the 2015 Ukraine power grid hack, where hackers remotely controlled power systems, causing a city-wide blackout ([00:02]).
• Nate Gleason: "It's the stuff you don't think about until it doesn't work. And then it's the foremost thing on your mind." ([01:11])

2. Critical Infrastructure Defined

• There are 16 critical infrastructure sectors, with energy being foundational: power grids, oil and gas pipelines, and the operational backbone of modern society ([03:39]–[03:48]).
• These systems are increasingly complex, software-reliant, and vulnerable not just to remote, chaotic attacks but also to highly coordinated and technical ones.

3. The Evolution of Grid Attacks

• The second Ukraine attack showed greater sophistication—custom malware "speaking the language" of industrial control systems, not just manipulating passwords ([04:52]–[05:11]).
• Nate Gleason: "In the second attack, when you have malware that's actually speaking the language of the devices ... that indicates a greater level of understanding." ([05:11])

4. Introducing Skyfall: Purpose and Design

• Real-world testing of such attacks in the field is impossible due to the dangers, so LLNL created Skyfall—a system that connects actual grid hardware with advanced computer simulations ("hardware in the loop") ([06:01]–[06:54]).
• Nate Gleason: "Skyfall is ... actual hardware that exists in real critical infrastructure ... leveraged [with] high performance computing simulation." ([06:35])
• The testbed can both simulate adversary tactics and work backwards from disaster scenarios to identify vulnerabilities.

5. Proactive and Reverse Engineering Defensive Strategies

• Skyfall’s two-pronged approach: simulate plausible (or "wild") attacks, and also start from disastrous consequences to backtrack all possible pathways, revealing both likely and less intuitive vulnerabilities ([07:23]–[07:55]).
• Nate Gleason: "We can start with the consequence ... then run our models backwards ..." ([07:55])

6. Name Origin and Broader Threats

• The name 'Skyfall' comes from the James Bond movie featuring a cyberattack with real-world, physical consequences—reflecting the seriousness and cross-domain nature of these threats ([08:31]–[08:52]).
• The episode notes that real-life disasters can stem from natural events (e.g., severe weather) as much as from attackers ([09:09]).

7. Cascading Failures: 2003 Northeast Blackout

• Example of a real-world domino effect where a small fault led to massive cascading failures and widespread blackout ([10:34]–[11:51]).
• Waipao Dande: "Certain threats are not obvious. What we call incipient faults." ([11:08])

8. The Secret Lives of Vulnerabilities

• Seemingly minor or hidden issues—like security cameras with concealed backdoors—can become vectors for systemic compromise ([13:08]–[13:34]).
• Nate Gleason: "We found that these security cameras had a lot of extra features in them." ([13:13])

9. Building Immune Infrastructure

• Instead of impenetrable barriers, the future is about resilient, adaptive (“immune”) systems—modeled after biological responses or even sci-fi:
  • Nate Gleason: "The idea that you can build a big, strong fence ... just isn't realistic. ... It's a layered approach ... make it as difficult as possible at every step." ([15:51])
  • "The analogy ... is Terminator movies ... the next generation ... that liquid metal ... you shoot him ... it just fills right in ..." ([16:15])
• Waipao Dande (joking reference): "Come with me if you want a bit little ..."

10. The Role of AI: Both Sides of the Battle

• AI is integral to both attack and defense.
  • Colin Ponce: "We're in an automation race. Our adversaries are leveraging this technology ... And we're trying to leverage this technology to automate our defense workflows. I don't know right now who's going to win that race." ([15:08])
• At Skyfall, AI helps explain and predict threats, making defense more agile ([14:33]–[14:52]).

11. The Human Element: Interdisciplinary Expertise

• Defending critical systems requires teams with deep, multidisciplinary knowledge—from grid engineering to AI and cybersecurity. It’s not just theoretical; these are live, real-world scenarios ([17:02]–[17:30]).

12. Full Circle: Naming and Real-World Impact

• Skyfall’s name had to be responsible and respected, given the high-stakes environments—but also a bit tongue-in-cheek:
  • Nate Gleason: "Glad we picked a name that wasn't silly." ([17:40])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nate Gleason (on trust): "It's the stuff you don't think about until it doesn't work. And then it's the foremost thing on your mind." ([01:11])
• Waipao Dande: "Certain threats are not obvious. What we call incipient faults." ([11:08])
• Colin Ponce: "If there's something that keeps me up at night, it's that we are in an automation race. ... I don't know right now who's going to win that race." ([15:08])
• Nate Gleason: "The idea that you can build big, strong fence around your system and keep the adversaries out just isn't realistic. So instead ... immune infrastructure ... it's a layered approach." ([15:51])
• Nate Gleason: "The funny thing was, I did have the opportunity to testify in front of Congress and had to use the name Skyfall. Glad we picked a name that wasn't silly." ([17:40])

---

Timestamps for Critical Segments

| Time | Segment Description | |----------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:02 | Ukraine power grid attack, 2015 – first live demonstration of cyberattack impact | | 03:39 | Explanation of critical infrastructure sectors | | 04:52 | Ukraine 2016 attack: advanced, targeted malware | | 06:01 | Skyfall’s creation and purpose | | 07:23 | Adversary simulation vs. consequence-based modeling | | 08:31 | Origin of 'Skyfall' name; security implications | | 10:34 | 2003 U.S. blackout: cascading failure explained | | 11:08 | "Incipient faults" and subtle risks | | 13:13 | The security camera backdoor anecdote | | 14:33 | Teaching AI to recognize and predict threats | | 15:08 | AI arms race—defense versus offense | | 15:51 | “Immune infrastructure” defense paradigm | | 17:40 | Congressional testimony and the importance of naming |

---

Summary Table: Takeaways

• Cyber risk is now a physical threat.
• Testing and modeling with real hardware and simulations is the only safe way to prepare.
• Failure modes aren't always malicious; small, compound problems can be disastrous.
• AI is both a boon and a risk, making the defense/attack arms race move faster.
• "Immune infrastructure" is the defense strategy of the future—dynamic, layered, resilient, not simply hardened.
• Human teams with diverse, specialized knowledge are essential for safeguarding tomorrow’s technology.

---

Conclusion:
"Skyfall" pulls back the curtain on the invisible guardians working to keep civilization’s foundational systems safe—where the next technological leap is as much about psychology and teamwork as code and computers. For listeners, it’s both a warning and a reassurance: the threats are real, but a passionate, creative team is pushing the boundaries to stay ahead.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Ukraine, 2015. Inside a grid control center, operators monitoring the flow of electricity heard something they couldn't explain. Then they didn't just hear it, they saw it. The cursor was moving, clicking, but no one was touching it. They watched, frozen, as someone else moved through their system, opening breakers. One section, then another, almost random, chaotic. Until a city of 200,000 completely lost power for the first time at this scale, a cyber attack didn't just steal data. It reached out and turned off the infrastructure on which the nation depends.

[Nate Gleason]

It's the stuff you don't think about until it doesn't work. And then it's the foremost thing on your mind.

[Narrator]

What happens when the systems we trust are taken over by malicious actors? When bad software turns off energy or telecommunications systems? At Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, there's a place designed to answer that question and prevent it. A place where scientists don't just study failure, they build it. This is Skyfall. Welcome to the Big Ideas Lab. Your exploration inside Lawrence Livermore National Labyrinth. Hear untold stories, meet boundary pushing pioneers, and get unparalleled access inside the gates. From national security challenges to computing revolutions, discover the innovations that are shaping tomorrow. Today, Join a team where expertise makes a difference. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory is hiring for a nurse practitioner, physician assistant, a senior health physicist, and a laser modeling physicist. And the list of open positions doesn't end there. There are more than a hundred job openings across science, engineering, it, HR and the skilled trades. This is more than a job. It's an opportunity to help shape the future. Explore all open positions and start your next career adventure [e-mail] that's llnl.gov careers. When you decide to sit down in your home, there's no hesitation as you put all your faith into that chair you've used time and time again. One small contained system of trust. Now imagine that trust at scale. Traffic lights, data centers, hospital equipment. Things made possible through essential energy systems we use every day. Energy systems deemed critical by the US government.

[Nate Gleason]

The US has defined 16 critical infrastructure sectors.

[Narrator]

Nate Gleason is the program leader for the cyber and infrastructure resilience program at Lawrence Livermore.

[Nate Gleason]

Energy is a critical infrastructure sector. That's your power grid, your oil and gas pipelines. It's basically the structure that allows a society to function and do the things that we need to do to meet

[Narrator]

the needs of society. These energy systems are complex, interconnected, and increasingly controlled by software. But when that software fails, it can have devastating consequences.

[Nate Gleason]

Ukraine says hackers are behind a big power outage in that country, the lights went out for hundreds of thousands of people.

[Narrator]

Russia appears to have figured out how to crash a power grid with a click. One year after the 2015 Ukraine energy grid was hacked, the attackers returned. This time, they didn't need to control a mouse. They had built something else.

[Nate Gleason]

The Ukrainian government saying that they've come under at least 10 major cyber attacks that forced a blackout of more than 100 cities across this country, saying that a virus was responsible for that rather large blackout that took place.

[Narrator]

Software.

[Nate Gleason]

The attacker created custom malware that infected the networks of the Ukrainian power companies, causing them to again open up the breakers and cause the power outage.

[Narrator]

Not the access and chaos of the first attack. This was control.

[Nate Gleason]

It was directly speaking the language of the industrial control systems, as opposed to basically just getting a password and remoting into a system. What we saw in the first attack is people with good cybersecurity knowledge were able to penetrate the defenses, but once they got in, they were just clicking around randomly. They were just causing chaos. In the second attack, when you have a malware that's actually speaking the language of the devices on the system, that indicates a greater level of understanding.

[Narrator]

In that moment, the world was exposed to a new kind of cyber attack, one intentionally directed at physical infrastructure, forcing a new question.

[Nate Gleason]

Would that work in the United States? If that same attack were perpetuated on California's grid, what would the impact be? We were tasked to simulate that, but there's a problem.

[Narrator]

You can't just shut down a city to test the system in real conditions, and no single company can test failures at that scale. Scientists needed to speak the language of the grid, but in a place outside the live system. So they created Skyfall, a testbed at Lawrence Livermore that connects real world equipment with high performance computers. A power grid. Hardware convinced through software and voltage signals that it's the real grid, what they call hardware in the loop.

[Nate Gleason]

What Skyfall is at its core is we can take actual hardware that exists in real critical infrastructure and then leverage the high performance computing simulation environment of the lab to simulate the broader system that that hardware exists in.

[Narrator]

Not in theory. In practice.

[Nate Gleason]

Skyfall takes data from that simulated environment, converts it into real electrical signals, feeds it to that equipment the way it would if it were out in the field, returns a response that goes back into the simulation. So it lets us take those real devices and make them think they are on the grid.

[Narrator]

The same mechanism that makes attacks possible is also what makes defense possible. Scientists at Skyfall take these abilities and play out Worst case scenarios in a simulated environment.

[Nate Gleason]

Shall we play a game? We play out these scenarios, we say, here's the stuff we think the adversary is thinking about. Here's some of the capabilities we've seen out in the wild. What would it look like if those were on our system? The really cool thing, though, is we can also do that in reverse.

[Narrator]

Scientists at Skyfall don't have to begin at the same point attackers would in their simulations. They can also start with the part of energy infrastructure they don't want shut down and work backwards to see what critical systems they need to protect.

[Nate Gleason]

We can start with the consequence. Say San Francisco loses power for a week. That's our consequence. Then we can run our models backwards and say, what are all of the ways that we could have gotten to that consequence? This is what we think the adversary wants to achieve. What are all the different tactics they might try to try to achieve that goal? It really aids the defense in being able to understand and anticipate the whole universe of what the adversary might do.

[Narrator]

The way this software can reach into the physical world is exactly how Skyfall ended up with its name in the first place.

[Nate Gleason]

From the James Bond movie. Skyfall was the first mainstream movie that prominently featured a cyber attack causing physical damage, a critical infrastructure element, as a major piece of the plot. The assailant hacked into the environmental control system, locked out the safety protocols and turned on the gas. Looks like obfuscated code to conceal its true purpose.

[Narrator]

Security through obscurity.

[Nate Gleason]

Just point and click. Skyfall sounds awesome. There were other ridiculous names. One of my colleagues, very wisely at the time, said, Nate, imagine one day, years from now, having to testify in front of Congress. Pick something that you would be okay saying in front of Congress.

[Narrator]

Outside of Hollywood, it's not a single villain against a system. It's weather events, equipment failure, software errors. So what happens when they all collide?

[Nate Gleason]

Bad days on the grid can take a lot of different flavors. It's not just bad guys that can cause problems.

[Narrator]

Looking for a career that challenges and inspires, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory is hiring for a nuclear facility engineer, systems design and testing engineer, and a senior scientific technologist, along with many other roles in science, technology, engineering and beyond. At the lab, every role contributes to groundbreaking projects in national security, advanced computing, and scientific research, all within a collaborative, mission driven environment. Discover Open [e-mail] careers where big ideas come to life. August 2003. On a stretch of the grid in northern Ohio, high voltage power lines sag under a heavy load. They brush against overgrown trees and shut down at just the wrong moment. Other lines take the extra load and also begin to fail, pushing even more strain onto the next and the next, one by one, failure upon failure, until 50 million people had lost power across the United States and Canada. This is cascading failure.

[Waipao Dande]

It's all the history of events happening. They will add up and something big will happen.

[Narrator]

Waipao Dande is the Associate Program leader for Energy Infrastructure modernization in the Cyber and Infrastructure Regime Resilience Program at Lawrence Livermore.

[Waipao Dande]

Certain threats are not obvious. What we call incipient faults.

[Narrator]

A small early stage problem in a system that hasn't fully failed yet.

[Waipao Dande]

It's not a short circuit, it's not anything big that happening. So why would I care about that? It's not damaging the system. It's not unsafe for humans who are interacting with the systems. But if you take the long time series of events happening, you will see a small spike, another small spike, spike, spike, spike, and then it goes boom.

[Narrator]

Just like the northeast blackout of 2003.

[Waipao Dande]

A tree touching a power line. There is wind and the line is touching the branches and nothing happens. There is a little spike in the measurements, but eventually the branch will burn and there is arcing and that will cause a cascading of devices and circuit breakers and switches which are installed on the power lines. One disconnects the line, that causes other parts of the lines and system to get overloaded. This is that domino effect.

[Narrator]

It doesn't take a massive failure, just the right sequence of small ones. And if someone understands that sequence, they can recreate it.

[Nate Gleason]

What a really bad day would be. Let's say we're sitting in the middle of summer and electricity usage is really high. Everyone's got their air conditioner on. They're a cyber attack comes in, that takes out a major transmission line, takes out a generation facility, and suddenly we have a power outage that affects a large portion of a region. If that's coupled with additional attacks, if you imagine a sustained campaign by an adversary, theoretically you can have a cascading power outage. Something similar to the Northeast Blackout back in 2003, but done intentionally. If you know what you're doing.

[Narrator]

Not every threat looks like an attack. Some of them don't announce themselves at all.

[Nate Gleason]

A couple of years ago, we had discovered some of the security cameras that were manufactured by Chinese companies. Our examination of these devices found that these security cameras had a lot of extra features in them.

[Narrator]

Encrypted video sent back to Chinese servers, quietly serving as backdoors into the network.

[Nate Gleason]

One of the things we do in Skyfall is find those vulnerabilities, mitigate them, or make sure that people know not to put those devices in their system.

[Narrator]

So how do you defend a system where failure can come from anywhere and everything is connected?

[Waipao Dande]

How do we harden our systems? How do we understand the systems? Harden them in such a way that we minimize the possibility of bad things happening. And if they do happen, then how do you make sure that these systems, critical systems, get back to life as quickly as possible and as nicely as possible?

[Narrator]

The answer isn't bigger systems, it's smarter ones. Systems that feel a little bit like magic.

[Colin Ponce]

I always kind of wanted to be a wizard. Who hasn't?

[Narrator]

Colin Ponce is a computer scientist at Lawrence Livermore.

[Colin Ponce]

And I decided that given that fantasy magic isn't real, I wasn't going to be able to probably achieve that particular career goal.

[Narrator]

But through Skyfall, Colin gets close.

[Colin Ponce]

Being able to teach computers to do things for me was the closest that

[Narrator]

I could get, specifically through AI. At Skyfall, the AI is consistently learning from the data it's given, and over time, those patterns explain threats and predict them.

[Colin Ponce]

It feels like magic sometimes, but they're not. What they do is they learn patterns. They learn the patterns in the data that you give them.

[Narrator]

While scientists at Lawrence LiverMore are using AI, so are potential adversaries.

[Nate Gleason]

If there's an AI tool that is designed to, say, attack the grid, how scary is that?

[Colin Ponce]

If there's something that keeps me up at night, it's that we are in an automation race. Our adversaries are leveraging this technology to automate their attack workflows. They're doing the same kinds of stuff that they would have been doing before, but faster and at bigger scale. And we're trying to leverage this technology to automate our defense workflows. I don't know right now who's going to win that race.

[Narrator]

That's exactly why Skyfall is needed.

[Nate Gleason]

How do we design and architect our system so even if the adversary wins, we're still okay? That's a really exciting area of research that leverages a lot of the innovations in artificial intelligence.

[Narrator]

At Lawrence Livermore, this approach has a name, immune infrastructure.

[Nate Gleason]

The idea that you can build big, strong fence around your system and keep the adversaries out just isn't realistic. So instead, what immune infrastructure is, it's a layered approach designed to make it as difficult as possible at every step for the adversary to achieve their objectives. The analogy I compare this to is Terminator movies. You have the original Terminator, you shoot him, is very robust, but eventually he breaks.

[Waipao Dande]

Come with me if you want a

[Nate Gleason]

bit little, then you have the next generation Terminator. That's that liquid metal T1000 advanced prototype emimetic polya liquid metal. So you shoot him. There's a hole that appears. It just fills right in and he keeps going. That's what we're trying to do. Rather than make a system that can take a beating, it's take the system that can dynamically adapt to the different threats. Whatever you care about the most, you can still protect.

[Narrator]

The tools are evolving on both sides. AI isn't just shaping how we're attacked, it's shaping how we defend. The systems that power our world can be turned against us, but they can also be understood, tested and protected. Work that could not happen without the team at Skyfall.

[Nate Gleason]

When you think about cybersecurity of critical infrastructure systems, in order to either effectively attack one of those systems or effectively defend a system, you've got to have a complex set of knowledge all together in one team.

[Narrator]

Because understanding the live system is the first step to keeping it running.

[Waipao Dande]

That's sort of the theme that runs through the program. These are not just academic scenarios. These are real world scenarios and the kind of things that we see happening

[Narrator]

in the world, the kind of work that depends on every detail, every perspective, every discipline, even down to the name.

[Nate Gleason]

The funny thing was, I did have the opportunity to testify in front of Congress and had to use the name Skyfall. Glad we picked a name that wasn't silly.

[Narrator]

Thank you for tuning in to Big Ideas Lab. If you loved what you heard, please let us know by leaving a rating and review. And if you haven't already, don't forget to hit the follow or subscribe button in your podcast app to keep up with our latest episode. Thanks for listening. Looking for a career that challenges and inspires? Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory is hiring for a senior labor relations advocate, a unified communications engineer and a laser modeling physicist, along with many other roles in science, technology, engineering and beyond. At the lab, every role contributes to groundbreaking projects in national security, advanced computing, and scientific research, all within a collaborative, mission driven environment. Discover Open [e-mail] careers where big ideas come to life.