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[00:00]
Natasha Mitchell
ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.
[00:09]
Narrator/Host
Hello, it's Lisa Leong from this Working Life, helping to make your work life
[00:13]
Theonela Matbob
better with advice from the world's top
[00:15]
Narrator/Host
experts like psychotherapist Esther Perel.
[00:19]
Theonela Matbob
Many conflicts are about power. Power is when I dismiss what you're bringing up. Power is when I magnify a problem
[00:25]
Narrator/Host
and Professor Adam Grant.
[00:27]
Natasha Mitchell
We need to take our critics and
[00:29]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
our cheerleaders and turn them into coaches.
[00:31]
Narrator/Host
Free coach Search for this Working Life
[00:35]
Theonela Matbob
on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:38]
Narrator/Host
When big mining moves in next door or just across the Coral Sea, what happens when the neighbours say no thanks or clean up your mess? And what does it take to resist, to seek justice and sometimes win? That's today on Big Ideas.
[01:06]
Theonela Matbob
Fix your mess. I didn't ask for it. I did not tell my ancestors to paddle to Australia to sign the deal. No, come back and fix your mess. That's all I know. I'm not alone. I'm just a physical face of an invisible army.
[01:24]
Narrator/Host
Former member of the Papua New Guinean Parliament, Theonela Matbob from Central Bougainville, who won this year's internationally prestigious Goldman Environmental Prize for her leadership in human rights complaint against mining giant Rio Tinto over its Panguna copper gold mine operation. Over 17 years, it dumped over a billion tonnes of tailings into local rivers, harming the health of waterways and thousands of people downstream.
[01:55]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
They have got one of the world's biggest companies, and I think maybe the second biggest mining company in the world, Rio Tinto, to admit that their mine caused this damage and they've now agreed to at least pay for some of the cleanup. That sort of stuff is unprecedented.
[02:15]
Narrator/Host
Dr. Luke Fletcher, executive director of Jubilee Australia, a not for profit research and advocacy centre focused on economic justice in the Asia Pacific.
[02:26]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
Our culture is built on not accumulating wealth and not holding wealth. It works in our favor and in the capitalistic world, it ruins us. When I get on a flight and go back to my village, if I live for a month there, I will not spend a single cent or a single dollar. I can survive and be completely healthy.
[02:52]
Narrator/Host
Emmanuel or Manu Penny, who is in Australia for this weekend's Melbourne International Film Festival screening of a documentary He Walks Before Me is about the fight against a copper gold mine proposal by panost, a Chinese owned Australian based company. The Freda River Project is pitched by PANOST as a nation building opportunity for PNG and a transformative sustainable development opportunity for the SEPIC region. But as Executive director of Project Sepic a community led organisation running a campaign against the mine. Manu is fighting to protect the Sepik river, often described as the second Amazon. At 1,100 kilometres long and covering a catchment area of 7.7 million hectares, it is one of PNG's last remaining pristine rivers. On Big Ideas. Hi Natasha Mitchell, taking you to the recent Extracting Justice, Mining Accountability and Community Power in the Pacific conference held at the University of Sydney on Gadigal country to hear stories from PNG environmental and human rights defenders holding Australian mining companies to account for their actions, past, present and future. They join Walkley award winning journalist with Guardian Australia, a former foreign correspondent covering Southeast Asia. Ben Doherty,
[04:22]
Natasha Mitchell
Theanila if I can start by asking you. The last time we met was deep in this valley in Panguna on the island of Bougainville, amid the sort of decaying ruins of what was once the largest mine on earth. We were nearby to a river that was bright blue with copper contamination. We meet now in very different circumstances. But Panguna, once this proud mountain on your country, is still a vast hole in the ground. The river is still an unearthly blue. Can you tell our audience the story of Panguna? What happened to your land and to your people?
[04:56]
Theonela Matbob
Panguna is a mine on Bougainville that was done for 17 years back in the late 1960s going into 70s and it ran for 17 years. It was a British Australian owned run by British Australian mine Camp Rio Tinto and leaving us behind with almost a billion tons of waste that people are living with now. And that project was Papua New Guinea's project that have led Bougainville to go into civil unrest which still remains an unresolved project in the country and Papua New Guinea's first project mistake. For record, on record.
[05:51]
Natasha Mitchell
Can I ask you to expand a little bit more, Thienila? I mean you talk about civil unrest. This was the worst conflict in the Pacific since World War II. It was an incredibly dangerous and difficult time for your people. And tell me about the context now where post mine were post conflict. But what's the context now? Why is it important that we're still talking about Panguna?
[06:09]
Theonela Matbob
So Panguna is an important discussion that needs to keep coming onto the table because it was the reason the devastation of human rights issues and the environment destruction was the cause of the conflict that ran Fubo Inbo in Papua New guinea that impacted the country for 10 years with a political and economic embargo imposed. And that issue has never been resolved. Even when the leaders of Bougainville and the Papua New guinea government reached the agreement, the Bougainville Peace Agreement. There is no single clause dedicated to resolving the Panguna human rights and environmental destruction that have ignited the war in Papua New Guinea. And this is where the importance of closing the earthful legacy of the country comes in. Very important and onto the table. And therefore the discussion is important.
[07:16]
Natasha Mitchell
Manu, it's very nice to see you again as well. You hear Theanila's story and I think you see perhaps a cautionary tale, a sort of salutary warning for your own people. Can you tell me about the Sepik river, the people of that place and the plan for free to mine?
[07:33]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
I'd like to begin by quoting Jem from Theonila. Last night she said, manu, my experience today is your future. And I think that's really. It's deep. And this is the reason why when we see the Sepik river and, and everything around it, we all think we don't want to get there. Sepik river is, as we know, one of the last 10 remaining rivers that is intact and pristine and people still drink from it. It's quiet and it's at its own time. And if you were to drive down to the river, you will not see what we see today here. It's as if people are living and experience the memory of their ancestors. This is our home and it's what provides for us. And that's why we wanting to ensure safety and protection of it so that it continues to sustain itself and sustain life that gives us life.
[08:51]
Natasha Mitchell
Tell me about Freedom Mine. What is proposed for the Sepik River?
[08:55]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
The Freedom Mine is owned by the Guangdong Province of China and it's based in Australia and it's called Panost. It's based out of Brisbane. The company is proposing to build a massive structure at the headwaters of the Sepic River. It intends to mine copper and gold and in the process building an ashtray, building a huge dam that will sort of keep the tailings and at the same time produce electricity. And they still also want to export electricity to Indonesia. They want to build roads and massive structures up at that place. It's promised to bring lots of money for the local community, the province and Papua New Guinea.
[09:45]
Natasha Mitchell
Theanila and Manu, I hear these stories and there are. There are differences in your situation. One is post mine and post conflict, one is this impending risk. But there are also similarities. And it feels like there's a sort of bedrock principle that is common and that is a sense of sovereignty, not in a sort of legalistic or a parliamentary way, but in a more fundamental sense of who's in control, who gets to decide what happens to these lands and to these waters? Is that really what we're talking about? Fundamentally, who's in charge and who's making the decisions?
[10:17]
Theonela Matbob
Absolutely. If you allow the project to come in the way of the sovereignty of the people, you're terminating their food security, you're terminating their access to clean drinking water, you're terminating their access to resources like timber to build their security. Because that is where life begins. You cannot be able to talk about massive stuff, say, for example, in the context of cipic. I'll move out of my context in Bougainville and come to my brother in the cipic. They promise that they will build, the company will build them hospital, airstrip, schools. But with my experience in Bougainville, in everything the rubbish, who can enjoy a flight if you are permanently hungry? And that is why bringing it back and seeing life before cash is very important. And it breaks through political imaginary boundaries and trade competitions and all of those things. That's why I. I am going to go back and say my present in the Pacific. Because what led to Bougainville conflict was the east west, like in the Pacific, post World War II. And it is a good story to keep reminding the conference and any humanity who live on land that my present is your future. If we don't take care of the environment,
[12:07]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
the question of who gets to give consent or who gets to decide is really up for contention. There are lots of people with interest. The company has its own interest. Members of parliament have their own interest. The government, as opposed to the members of Parliament, have their own interest. Other proponents of the mine have their own interest. Maybe one or two people in villages within the area of the mine have their own interest. But ultimately, I think when everybody gets together and it's a collective concern about the possibilities of danger, the possibilities of the threats that are real. For instance, the possibility of the dam to break and destroy, annihilate entire river system life forms. Those collective concerns and threats gives power to whether to say yes or no. And it's ultimately clear in the case for the people of Sipik river and their river, they continue to resist and say, we do not want this. And I don't think a scientist in Australia or scientist in Germany can come up with, oh, we can do deep sea tailings placement and safeguards, the tailings and leakage into the river, or any other scientist, an oceanographer, or someone who knows about volcanic and earthquake can say, look, this is based on science because we heard yesterday that science affects and science are real. And so the facts that work for Australia, Canada, Ireland and New Zealand in terms of banning river disposal and deep sea tailings placement is real for these parts of the world, but it's not real for us. So there is this question of what is, you know, can you be able to use science to convince me? So if, if the collective threats and the collective view of the threats are real, then we are the ultimate people and that the collective, the energy and the strength are the ultimate to give consent to say yes or no.
[14:40]
Narrator/Host
Manu Penny, executive director of Project Sepik, fighting to protect the pristine Sepik river in png, which UNESCO describes as one of the world's greatest river systems. The Australian mining company Panost is proposing a major copper gold mine for the region. And before him you heard from former PNG politician and winner of the 2026 Goldman Environmental Prize, Theonila Matbob. This is Big Ideas on ABC Radio National, I'm Natasha Mitchell. Now, do mining companies operate to different standards in the Pacific than they do in Australia? Back to Guardian Australia's Ben Doherty, who's turning to Dr. Luke Fletcher of Jubilee Australia, a not for profit research and advocacy centre focused on economic justice for the Asia Pacific.
[15:31]
Natasha Mitchell
Luke, we have the examples of Panguna, we have other examples. Octeti Grasberg. Why are mining companies, extractive companies, able to operate in such environmentally destructive ways in the Pacific?
[15:46]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
Yeah, thanks, Ben. It's a fantastic question. And just picking up on what Manu said, we had a mining engineer stand up yesterday at the conference and say that no Australian state or territory would allow or does allow riverine tailings disposal, does allow ocean tailings disposal and I would posit would allow the type of dam that is proposed to be built in Freda river in Australia. Why is that? Because as Marnie said, you're combining a tailings deposit which is somehow going to contain the tailings underwater for basically for eternity. At the same time, a hydro dam which is, when full, the size of 17 Sydney harbours, the volume 17 Sydney harbours and hold that back by a wall that goes across a gorge and say that after the mine is finished, after 50 years, that someone's going to maintain that for a thousand years. I mean, it's fantasy, it's total fantasy. As to your question as to why it's allowed in a place like PNG or other parts of the world, we have the benefit here of an educated population who just wouldn't stand for it and as Manu has said, a lot of the folks along the Sepik river and other parts of, and probably the same would have been true in Bougainville, probably weren't even aware of what was being planned and didn't have the wherewithal to really oppose the developments when they were proposed. You know, well, that's different now for the Sipig, but for the Panguna people, I've heard Theanila say that they just didn't had any idea what they were getting into. So it's partly a public information, very different system of dispersing public information. It's partly, I think, a lack of funding and political influence over the regulators is one where you see regulators making decisions that are not fully independent and not fully allowing, not fully considering the impacts on the environment. And I think cynically it's also partly because companies realise that they can just get away with more stuff there because of all these things. And there are enough people willing to go along with it and there are enough people who believe that the benefits, that is to say the export earnings of whatever you're selling for the copper outweigh the damages. And I think what Manu and Theonella have always said is it's not, it's a devil's bargain that doesn't make sense. But there are some people in power who think it's a bargain worth taking.
[18:43]
Natasha Mitchell
Luke, you've spoken about the global transition rather to renewable energy and the demand that that brings for greater extraction of minerals. Things like copper, nickel, cobalt. These we find all across the Pacific in great abundance. How do you, I, how do you balance that or negotiate that tension, the demands of the green energy transition with safeguarding lands and managing extraction.
[19:10]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
Yeah, and it's a challenge in Australia too, right. Because we have a lot of, we have so many green minerals in Australia as well. So it's not a problem unique to the Pacific. These are debates happening in any mineral rich country in the world right now. There are red lines that we would say should not be crossed. So where are these red lines? So if it's a very important biological area, say a rainforest that allows us to breathe oxygen and protects us from or it will mediate the impacts of climate change. The Sepik, the Frieda river run is right in the middle of the Sepik rainforest, which is right in the middle of the third largest intact rainforest in the world. If the mine gets built the rainforest, the loggers will get more access to the rainforest because of all the new infrastructure and roads. Logging will get worse. More of the rainforest will go. So that's just a really simple case of do you want the forest or do you want the copper? There are other things that we would say about the type of development. So in Australia what you would do with the tailings, right is you would dig them up, you would dry them out and you would stack them somewhere safe until the mine has finished. And then you would re and you would put them back in the pit of where the mine is and then you ideally cover it up and reforest it. And that's the best case, kind of best practice, global best practice now for a mine like this.
[20:38]
Natasha Mitchell
And does that happen?
[20:39]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
It happens a lot of other places in the world. It doesn't happen in png. It's too expensive. Right. And it's logistically complicated when you're in the top of a mountain in the middle of a rainforest. So the companies don't want to do it. And so it's all about getting cheaper copper to the global market rather than protecting the environment. And what we would say is there's plenty of places in the world where there's copper and these other minerals and there's plenty of ways of extracting them in an environmentally and socially appropriate way. It's just we have to insist that companies and regulators do it in the right way.
[21:14]
Natasha Mitchell
The Anila and manufacturing, it sometimes feels an asymmetric contest that you're engaged in. Put it in biblical terms, it's a David versus Goliath sort of battle. These are powerful multinational companies with millions, sometimes billions in the bank. They've got armies of lawyers at their disposal. They have immense influence over mendicant, sometimes corrupt governments. You have none of that. And the only asset that you do have is the land and your right to it. And that's the very thing that's being destroyed or that's being threatened. How do you win that battle?
[21:47]
Theonela Matbob
For the case of Bougainville Pangona, it is not so much the size of the company or the number of people or the institutions we have. I think it is all about understanding what does the structure look like and where are the windows, the weak points. All of this because the story of Panguna is that story where we see the power play between the strong and the weak. I think that is no longer the story in the Pacific. That is no longer the story for Bougainville too. In those days, that kind of transactional investment or project was happening at the time. People were not ready to understand. And for the now, the case that, I mean the Complaint process that we are going through for Panguna is a growing, growing process where the world is now watching. And that's the reason why I said it is about understanding and being knowledgeable to appreciate, even because we can be small, obviously. But if we know where we stand and our identity, that is our power, that is our strength.
[23:16]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
Manu, we'd like to start with the strength we have, which is that we have ultimate control over the safety of our home. But then in Papua New Guinea, I don't know about my other colleagues in the Pacific, we're fortunate to have great law, the constitution, the organic law, and we sing it in our national anthem and the national pledge, so it's all stated clearly. The power we have over our land and our home, that gives great strength to us. And I would like to also believe that Papua New Guineans are already so aware of the dangers of getting into such, such a destructive development, such as the Frida Koppa and several others. We also have the power of the people themselves, knowing that even though they're in the government, even though they're in the bureaucratic level that are giving permits, they're able to also connect to the land themselves. They're not disconnected, they're not Japanese or outside foreigners who are working for the companies and working for the government. So when they make a decision, they know they're making a decision about their families as well. So that connection goes right back, and it's deep and strong. The other thing that is really powerful is the story about how Project cpic started in 2017, I was asked by a funder, Mano, are you going to stop the mine? And I said, no, I'm nobody. I'm fighting against the Australia and the government of Papua New Guinea. The government of China, at that time, the government of Canada also had shares. And so there's so many governments to fight, and the company. But I told the funder, I said, I can promise you I will delay it. I'll delay it for five years. Give me the money. And so the funder supported us. And it's now 10 years, and they still haven't got the permit and the license. So there is hope.
[25:32]
Natasha Mitchell
And is that still the tactic? Is it still just delay, you know, put barriers in the way, keep pushing back, keep pushing back, or do you believe you can stop it?
[25:40]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
The world is in such a hurry to move forward, and it's such a hurry to destroy everything in its path that it will open. My only resolve is that together with other people who believe that we can delay and slow things down. That's all I can do.
[25:59]
Natasha Mitchell
I mean, is that kind of what we're talking about here? That some of the world's poorest people are being asked to kind of pay for the richest people in the world to get even richer? Basically. I mean, there does seem to be a huge disparity between the people who are paying the price for these mines and the people who are gonna benefit from it.
[26:18]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
In other conferences I've always been the one to really totally negative about the world and it's true because at the end of the day, all of us sitting here consume. We're consumers and we're the ones putting the demand for these resources to be exploited, for the earth to be dug up, for the timbers to be cut down. So whatever little things that we do when we buy stuff, when we demand things, when we fly in a plane and all of this, we're all putting that demand. And we can blame the corporations and blame whoever is making the decision, but we should start looking at blaming our unethical and immoral greed and consumerism. It's driving this.
[27:04]
Narrator/Host
The real price of progress. Papua New Guinean environmental and human rights campaigner Emmanuel Omanu Penni on what's driving his community's fight against the major Freda river copper gold mining proposal by panost, which is a Chinese own Australian headquartered mining company. And you're with ABC Radio National's Big Ideas with me, Natasha Mitchell. Now, these sorts of battles come at a huge personal and psychological cost too. And that's where Guardian Australia journalist Ben Doherty is heading next with Emmanuel and the equally tenacious Theanila Matbob from Central Bougainville, winner of the 2026 Goldman Environmental Prize for leading a campaign for the cleanup of Rio Tinto's Panguna copper gold mine.
[27:59]
Natasha Mitchell
Theonela and Manu, can I ask about the personal cost? You know Manu, you just talked about the fact that you've kind of started off from your position, you know, nearly 10 years ago saying, who am I to, you know, I'm just one person, how can I fight against this? But I'm interested in the sort of qualities that make someone say, no, I am going to fight this, I am going to resist. Here both of your lives have borne heavy burdens in your particular struggles. What is the price you pay for resistance?
[28:26]
Theonela Matbob
It really depends on how you see yourself in the activism space. I think for me, the reason why I keep going back to the starting point and understanding my identity as a departing point is because the beauty of the Governance system that we have is deeply rooted with its economic element as well and that is outrightly horizontal. It goes across. We live in our culture, we live for ourselves and our families but we connect it through trade. And that is where you find the fine line in fulfilling your economic needs through trade. And thus goes back to the keynote message I said yesterday about protecting the relationship. Because our economic system is horizontal in the Melanesia we don't dig deep, it's not vertical. Digging is not our economics. It is horizontal. I harvest here today, I move tomorrow. I harvest here while waiting for the left or the right to come back and be ready for the harvest. And that is the reason why we say we pass on that economy or the currency, the earth, to the next generation unattept. You know what I mean? Right. And on that note, for me, I don't see through the lenses of an introduced trade world into and say I am a problem and thus I have to open up my land. No, no, no. It's a cross cultural time and the season for us to start understanding what does my economic system look like. Because I can't identify myself with an introduced economic system that is only going to hurt me, torture me, erode my confidence and make me become fearful and submissive. And it is because of that for me there is no such thing as now I gotta sacrifice this for this. No. I'm a birthing man. I gave birth to two children. I can't give them a broken portion of bougainville to them. No. So there is no burden like in the context of Bougainville there is no burden. But for me, fix your mess. I didn't ask for it. I did not tell my ancestors to paddle to Australia to sign the deal. No, come back and fix your mess.
[31:09]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
That's all huge personal cost. Honestly, Shane Wide, my colleague over there, he asked me something and I said look, it's really unfortunate. We are paid to get angry about everything and anything on a daily basis. It's exhausting. And we're not paid sometimes to even get angry. So yeah, I suffer from anxiety issues. Shane and I, two years ago we had so many calls. Late nights, people breathe into the phones, they ask us where we are, what are you doing? You know I have police around my house. We have to have a policeman in our team. This gentleman was a volunteer and he eventually joined the police force and now continues to support us. Given my other work in other human rights activities, yeah, the anxiety is pretty bad. There are moments or days I just stay at home and Lock all the doors and stay in my room. But I'm not the only one. And this is a call to, to all amazing leaders here. Maybe pause and think about yourselves. Yeah. Even though we're paid to get angry about things, you know, look away. It's hard because, you know, we all want to contribute, we see injustice, we feel it and so it's difficult. But yeah, huge personal cost. I have a son who turned 16 and he tells me all the time, I'll never be like you because you're never happy. So, yeah, it's huge message to everyone. You know, protect yourself. We want to feel things, we empathize, we even, you know, we cry about it when we see it. But yeah, step away and, I don't know, be a chair or a lamppost and not feel anything.
[33:32]
Natasha Mitchell
You've heard from Theoneli, you've heard from Manu very passionately about the personal cost. You've watched their work, you've worked on other campaigns across the Pacific. Can these work? Can community resistance stop the sort of worst excesses? And can it win justice for past wrongs? And if so, how?
[33:51]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
Yeah, thanks. So we called this conference, this Extracting justice conference. The key words at the end were community power, because as Thean and Larry Mana have said, there's all sorts of techniques and strategies that you can use to challenge the worst excesses. There's litigation in the courts, there's non judicial complaints mechanisms that can be useful for publicity and for sometimes transparency. There's, you know, there's the media, there's social media, there's sort of building support outside the communities, which is often helpful in terms of putting pressure on decision makers. So there's all these sorts of strategies and they're all important, but at the end of the day, what really matters is that communities are organised, that the leadership of the communities such as Manu and Theonela are supported to play their role in organising and doing that leadership. And that is the most important asset that one always has. And if you have that asset, as this is the case with both the CPIC campaign and the campaign that Theanilla has been the lead spokesperson of to see clean up of Pangoona Mine, you can achieve incredible things. I mean, if you just look at what Theanilla and the Human Rights Law Centre and the leadership group in Panguna that Theanilla is working with have achieved, they have got one of the world's biggest companies and I think maybe the second biggest mining company in the world, Rio Tinto, to admit that their mine caused this damage that is huge. And not only that, they've got them to fund a study as to understand exactly what the damage is and they've now agreed to at least pay for some of the cleanup. That sort of stuff is unprecedented. I mean it's world. That's the reason why Theanilla was recognised with the Goldman Prize this year. And Theanilla herself would say it's not just for her, it's for the entire campaign. Right. So you can achieve incredible things. I mean, the SEPI campaign has achieved incredible things already in terms of its ability to organise all the villages up and down the river. Whatever happens with the mine, whether it gets stopped, whether it gets delayed and maybe the most harmful impacts modified through the delay, as Manu said, or whether it goes ahead as currently planned. What the organisation that has happened of these, of these community is extraordinary and it's tiring and it's exhausting, as Manu has said. And the impacts are tremendous on the leadership. But we, I guess we wouldn't do this work if we didn't believe that these actions over many years have short and long term impacts. And one thing I just. One final comment on that question, Ben, I would say is that another reason why these are two campaigns in the Pacific that a lot of us look to and are inspired by is that they've had a long duration and that they've year and upon year upon year that, that the goal and the vision and the personnel, I mean the personnel sometimes changes a little bit. But there's been consistent support from the community, from the organisations, from partner organisations outside the country, from funders, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so if you often you're running a campaign and you're getting nowhere and you're getting nowhere, but then something turns, a moment happens. You know, the Dukin Gorge crisis happened for Rio Tinto, which was really important in the PA affair, suddenly becoming one that Rio was prepared to look at because they were so embarrassed about what they'd done in Duke and Gorge in Western Australia. So yeah, waiting for that moment and being part of a campaign and advocacy strategy for many, many years is really important.
[38:17]
Natasha Mitchell
Theanila and Manu, you've spoken very powerfully about your connection to land and connection to place. You speak about your country as sort of fundamental to your being. How, how important is that in the kind of when you go to take on these global giants and what does that give you? Is it a moral authority? Is it sort of something as basic as skin in the game? How does that connection to land equip you?
[38:45]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
I always think that I'm not the only one who feels passionately and strongly about my land. I'd like to think that Dr. Balcomer here, Evelyn, on the other side,
[38:58]
Audience Member/Panelist
and
[38:58]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
every other Papua New Guineans feel the same. And I think it shows clearly with the level of migration to Australia. You have lots of other Pacific islands coming here, but Papua New Guineans are happy to stay on at home yet. It's tough and it's rough a bit, but we connected. We're standing on land, so that's all I can say. Standing on land.
[39:26]
Theonela Matbob
I think for me, how that equips me and my people every time when I'm, like, showing up, you know for sure that you're not alone. Because it is, like, I think because I'm so deeply rooted in my, you know, like it's 13 generations now, right? Since my very first great, great, great great grandmother Poreo, was like, into being, like, from the spirituality into now, the physical people that we are. And because I know every line of the story, I know every name of my ancestors, I know I'm not alone. I'm just a physical face of an invisible army. And that is the power you have when you are sitting in a room or in a conference room, like recently in San Francisco, where you're facing 3,800 people and you don't see them, but you see your own people in that. It's deeply spiritual. And like I said yesterday, I can't trade that. And that is the power. Because you're not doing this for yourself, or you're not doing it because you want to be recognized, but you're doing it because it is responsibility. And that is the power you have. Like, you see no one, but you know that you want your land back, and you know that that land was shredded not using your economic laws. Because if it was using my economic laws and that Pangona was dug out or grazed out, it could be yield. But I know for sure that this result is an application of something foreign. And I owe it to my ancestors and I owe it to my neighbors who are my children. And they're not born yet, but I know spiritually they are real and they're there. And because Rio Tinto sits on the other side, the Human Rights Law center and my community leaders are on this side. In the center is that fault beneath is my sacred site that your mess buried. And every time you're sitting on the table, you want your land back. And it doesn't matter Whether he's a Goliath or seven times bigger than you, so long as you come and answer it using my system. And if there is a lapse between the two cultures, then that is the bit that we need to police together.
[42:15]
Natasha Mitchell
What's the future, Theanila? What's the future for Panguna?
[42:19]
Theonela Matbob
For me the future is Rio Tinto is now on the table with all our leaders and I am looking at them committing and making sure that this process finds the lasting solution in them funding, committing to fund the remediation and ensuring that all the commitments of the recent report that was released after the 18 months of assessment, which is obviously the first, they've never done it before the mine and all of the recommendations being met and that we able to reconcile this and let them go after they restore the image and we can also be able to find healing.
[43:09]
Natasha Mitchell
Manu for the sake of the future
[43:11]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
younger leaders today in Papua New guinea, the emerging ones from various educational institutions, even those who are out in the villages, they are more aware of how the world is organized. And thanks to Mr. Donald Trump, you know, he's put out how worlds organize themselves. We organize so that we are going to go there and start a war there and get their oil or resources. So those ways that these parts of the world organize itself to exploit what they call poor countries or underdeveloped people are already beginning to aware and when they have that knowledge and when they stand on land, I feel that emerging leadership will, there will be more of Cheyenne wide, Evelyn over there, Vicky and myself, we already have, you know, younger person like Theonela here. So the emerging leaders are stepping forward, standing on land. In our experience, in my own town in Sepik, we understand that the world also needs food and needs things. And so instead of digging up metal and poisonous things to feed the army and military warfare, they need to have chocolate and vanilla and cabbage and you know, for what's the Korean pickled cabbage, you know, they need to have that too.
[44:51]
Natasha Mitchell
You had me a chocolate and vanilla. I'm not sure about the cabbage.
[44:53]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
So yeah, so yeah, there's a possibility or there's a huge possibility for us to be providers of food and water. And if we were to keep more of our rivers and water sources safe, we could also send water out into the world given that the world has gone ahead and destroyed their water source and food sources. So these are real possibilities, future sustainable futures. And we are not just saying it, we are already doing that in various parts of Papua New Guinea. So those are two promising futures.
[45:36]
Natasha Mitchell
We have a very engaged and knowledgeable audience in today. Are there any questions?
[45:41]
Theonela Matbob
Hi, everyone. Theo, you spoke about imagining your future children and descendants in that room when you won the Goldman Prize. And in thinking about what you would imagine for them in three generations, you won't be here to see it, but what do you imagine for them, what their life might look like? I think to respond to that question, it is not to say this journey that my people and I are doing on behalf of the 15,000 people who are directly impacted by the mine and the legacy that we live with will restore the environment back to where it was. That is not possible, like, you know, realistically. But what I imagine for the next generation or the unborn generation is to leave a reason behind. And that reason that we fought, because the biggest, you know, like, negligence you can give to the unborn generation is being silent knowingly, and not being able to rise up and ask a single question of accountability in that way. Like, say, for example, it was the first engagement, like I mentioned yesterday was with the 10th generation, when Christianity and trade went into our territory, like now, called Bougainville, but it's dupee when in dupe. The first engagement for my family was in the 10th generation, but it was different for all the others. And then they were gifted the faith to practice so that I can be able to be forgiven even to the trade deals, the market demands, all of that. And then into the 11th, the 10th generation, all the business, whatever the marketing demands to feed the factories, happened in the following generation. The 11th generation was the one that kind of started to rise up. And for the Papua New Guinean brothers and sisters whom you would know, the rebel leader Kabwe, who is my grandfather, was like, he comes from that generation that kind of fought and demanded accountability. The generation after him was so weakened that they cannot be able to talk because of, like, institutionalized fear, mistrust, all of that. And for me, like, when I looked at it, I even hated the previous generation. I'm only bringing this out to put a context into what I imagine for the next generation. I am the 13th generation. The 12th went quiet. The 11th kind of fought. The 10th was all forgiving because of they were gifted with faith. It's okay, let's forgive everyone. Even if they terminate your identity, keep forgiving them. So it is because of that, like. But I had to really find my way in. When I started digging into the archives of, you know, how the Colonial administration of Australia wrote a letter to Catholic Church to facilitate all of these things, like it is hell. Like you can't forgive my goodness. Like, I come from a devoted Catholic family, to be very honest. But it was hard, but I had to start finding it deep. How can I separate and continue to engage with the faces of the institutions? So I kind of learned to separate humans from the institution, leadership from the faith practice. It was a lot like. And with that experience for me now giving birth to two children and, you know, like if it's 15,000 now, directly living with the impact and the toxic legacy of the mind, we will not restore everything, but we will need to leave a story that they can hear and from that they can go to another degree of healing to the point that maybe they can be able to be more innovative and look for ways. And look, the reality on Bougainville and the mess that we've inherited is not a thing that you can fix with your bare hands. And that is why the importance of the Pangonamae legacy impact assessment process.
[51:03]
Audience Member/Panelist
Thank you, that's a very good panel. So I ask this question from a place of peace, of love and to seek deeper understanding. And I ask from a background of environmental science, geophysics and natural resource management and a minor in economic and public policy in Papua New Guinea. Some of my lecturers are from Australia and around the world too. And as we know, the main themes of environmental science promote the green and the blue economy, sustainable economic development, growth. My question is, is this the same knowledge base running through our learning institutions here in Australia? 1 and if it is yes, the answer is yes. Then how is it influencing practice and corporate accountability in other spaces, including legal and extractive space here in Australia? Because deep sea tailing, placement and deep sea mining and of course river entailings does not make any science and engineering sense in PNG and the Pacific. So are we all on the same page here in Australia?
[52:14]
Natasha Mitchell
Thank you, Luke, perhaps that's a question for you.
[52:17]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
You're absolutely right. The laws of science are universal. And toxic chemicals, the impact of sediment on rivers, the chemistry is the same either side of the Torres Strait. But the reality is, as we've talked about today, that the types of things that are happening in PNG and places like it just wouldn't happen in Australia just because it's a different country. There shouldn't be different rules. But I think sometimes we have a problem in the west of only thinking about what's impacting us. And some people, let's be honest, they've got a difficulty thing just getting the food on the table for their kids and getting to work and home every day and all that sort of thing. So they just don't necessarily want to think about it. But I'll just say one more thing, touching on what Manu said about consumer power and are the consumers at fault here? No, the consumers are not absolutely at fault here. But what I would say is if you're going to buy an ev, you're going to go buy a Tesla or BYD or something, why not ask your car company, what's your policy on ethical sourcing for the battery minerals, for the lithium, for the nickel, for the copper? Right. Because a lot of these companies are now starting to insist that their suppliers use mines that have been approved by a group called irma, and they go and audit mines where lithium is being extracted, but it could happen in other battery minerals. So I can tell you that these sort of mines would not be approved by that, by that. Now, that's a consumer pressure system and it's not the only solution, by all means, but it's one thing that we consumers in the west could do. In countries like Australia, the broader problem of the weakness of environmental regulators in other countries like png, that's, that's a different problem. But again, I think that comes back to what Manu and Theo are talking about, about organising in country, organising your community there with the support from allies here and other places, and just slow, gradual organising to try and transform the system so that the regulators do do a better job and so the politicians allow them to do that. That's, I think, the best answer I can give to that.
[54:47]
Natasha Mitchell
Ladies and gentlemen, it's been a real privilege to listen to our extraordinary panel, full of passion, full of energy and full of moral clarity. Can I ask you to thank Thea, Neela Matbob, Emmanuel Penny and Luke Fletcher
[55:01]
Narrator/Host
and you can find and follow Big Ideas on abc. Listen to hear or share today's episode or wherever else you grab your podcasts. The film about the Sepik river community's fight against the proposed Freda river mine by the Chinese owned Australian incorporated company Panost, screens at the Melbourne International Film Festival this weekend. That's the 7th and 8th of August, and Sukun Dimi Walks Before Me is due for general release in Australia later this year. Its co producer, the executive director of Project Sepic, Emanuel Penny, who you heard from today, will be speaking at one of the screenings. Big Ideas requested comment from panost, but we haven't heard back yet. Here is part of what became company states on its website. Frieda River Copper Gold Project will not dispose of its waste into the river system. It will protect the sepic ecosystem at all costs. PANOST does not take lightly its commitment to ensuring the safe design, safe construction and safe operation of the dam. PANOST is mindful of the ecosystem it is in, including its host communities. End of quote. At the Extracting Justice Conference, you also heard from Theanila Matt Bob, winner of the 2026 Goldman Environmental Prize, executive director of Jubilee Australia, Dr. Luke Fletcher, and Guardian Australia's Ben Doherty was asking the questions. If you want to get in touch, our Email address big ideasbc.net au I'm Natasha Mitchell, back next time with more big stories and big ideas.
[56:36]
Natasha Mitchell
Bye. You've been listening to an ABC podcast. Discover more great ABC podcasts, live radio and exclusives on the ABC Listen app.

Summary9 min read

Big Ideas – ABC Australia

Episode: The PNG Environmental Defenders Taking on Australian Mining Giants — What is Extractive Justice and Its Toll?

Date: August 5, 2026
Host: Natasha Mitchell
Guests:

Theonila Matbob (Former PNG MP, 2026 Goldman Environmental Prize Winner)
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny (Executive Director, Project Sepik)
Dr. Luke Fletcher (Executive Director, Jubilee Australia)
Ben Doherty (Guardian Australia Journalist, Panel Moderator)

Episode Overview

This episode centers on environmental and human rights defenders from Papua New Guinea (PNG) confronting multinational mining corporations, particularly Australian-linked operations, over environmental destruction and community rights. Through stories of Bougainville’s Panguna mine and the threatened Sepik River, panelists explore the meaning and cost of "extractive justice," sovereignty, the environmental and social impacts of mining, and the pathways—legal, social, and spiritual—towards resistance and potential justice.

The discussion is set during the “Extracting Justice, Mining Accountability and Community Power in the Pacific” conference at the University of Sydney.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy of Panguna: Post-Conflict, Post-Mine (04:22–07:16)

Panguna Mine’s Impact:
The Panguna copper and gold mine on Bougainville, owned by Rio Tinto, operated for 17 years, leaving over a billion tons of tailings and devastating local rivers and communities. This environmental and social destruction triggered a 10-year civil conflict, the worst in the Pacific since WWII.
Unresolved Justice:
No meaningful redress for the human rights and environmental damages exist in formal agreements. Bougainville’s Peace Agreement omitted any clause to address the mine legacy.

Quote – Theonila Matbob (05:01):
“Panguna is a mine on Bougainville that was done for 17 years… It was a British Australian owned, run by Rio Tinto… leaving us behind with almost a billion tons of waste that people are living with now. And that project was Papua New Guinea's project that have led Bougainville to go into civil unrest which still remains an unresolved project in the country...”

2. The Sepik River: An Impending Risk (07:16–09:44)

The Sepik’s Significance:
The Sepik River is described as PNG’s “second Amazon”—pristine, vital, and home to generations of communities who depend directly on it.
The Freda River Project Threat:
The proposed mine by PanAust (Chinese owned, Australian based) would build a vast dam and infrastructure, promising “sustainable development” but risking the ecology and well-being of thousands.

Quote – Emmanuel Penny (07:33):
“My experience today is your future. Sepik river is… one of the last 10 remaining rivers that is intact and pristine and people still drink from it. …This is our home and it's what provides for us. … we want to ensure safety and protection of it so that it continues to sustain itself and sustain life that gives us life.”

3. Sovereignty, Consent & the True Decision Makers (09:44–14:40)

Sovereignty and Survival:
Mining brings loss of control—over food security, water, resources. The debate is fundamentally about “who gets to decide?”—locals, government, or foreign interests?
The Limits of Promised Benefits:
Infrastructure offers are hollow if basic sustenance is destroyed.
Local Consent and Science:
The inadequacy of international “best practice”—solutions safe in Australia are not offered in PNG; science against tailings in rivers/oceans is clear, but not observed.

Quote – Theonila Matbob (10:16):
“If you allow the project to come in the way of the sovereignty of the people, you're terminating their food security, you're terminating their access to clean drinking water, ...that is where life begins.”
Quote – Manu Penny (12:06):
“If the collective threats and the collective view of the threats are real, then we are the ultimate people and that the collective... give consent to say yes or no.”

4. Why Double Standards? The Global Mining Quandary (15:31–21:13)

Regulatory Gaps: Practices like riverine tailings disposal, banned in Australia, are proposed for PNG because regulators are weaker, public information is less accessible, and corporations know they can "get away with more."
Green Transition Paradox: The demand for minerals for renewables increases pressure on regions like PNG, yet the methods proposed undermine ecological and social sustainability.

Quote – Dr. Luke Fletcher (15:46): “No Australian state or territory would allow or does allow riverine tailings disposal, does allow ocean tailings disposal and ... would allow the type of dam ... in Freda river... It's fantasy, it's total fantasy... Because companies realise that they can just get away with more stuff there...”

5. Community Power & Resistance: David vs Goliath (21:13–27:04)

Strategies of Resistance: Knowledge of the system, persistence, and community solidarity are assets. The contest is not just size, but understanding and exploiting weaknesses in power structures.
Delay as Tactic:
Sometimes “winning” means delaying the project until momentum or circumstances change.
Ethics of Consumption:
Resistance is complicated by global consumption patterns—the demand for cheap minerals fueling the very projects in question.

Quote – Theonila Matbob (21:46): “If we know where we stand and our identity, that is our power, that is our strength.” Quote – Manu Penny (23:15): “I told the funder... I can promise you I will delay it. I'll delay it for five years. Give me the money. And so the funder supported us. And it's now 10 years, and they still haven't got the permit and the license. So there is hope.”
Quote – Manu Penny (26:17):
“We should start looking at blaming our unethical and immoral greed and consumerism. It's driving this.”

6. The Personal Cost of Defending Land (27:59–33:32)

Strain and Sacrifice:
Activism brings anxiety, exhaustion, fearful nights, and family strain. Resistance can be isolating but is powered by a sense of spiritual and multigenerational responsibility.
Horizontal Economies vs Vertical Extraction:
Melanesian economies are “horizontal”—based on sharing and movement rather than extraction and accumulation.

Quote – Theonila Matbob (28:25): “I can't give them a broken portion of Bougainville to them. No. So there is no burden like in the context of Bougainville there is no burden. But for me, fix your mess. I didn't ask for it. ... No, come back and fix your mess.” Quote – Manu Penny (31:09): “We are paid to get angry about everything and anything on a daily basis. It's exhausting... I have a son who turned 16 and he tells me all the time: I'll never be like you because you're never happy... Protect yourself.”

7. Can Community Campaigns Achieve Justice? (33:32–38:17)

Community Organisation is Essential: Legal action, complaints processes, media, and persistent organizing—especially over the long term—are key. International scrutiny and solidarity can lead to unprecedented accountability, as in Rio Tinto’s agreement to help fund Panguna cleanup.
Value of Long Campaigns: Major victories can hinge on decade-long efforts and seizing the right moment.

Quote – Dr. Luke Fletcher (33:51):
“You can achieve incredible things... they have got one of the world's biggest companies … Rio Tinto, to admit that their mine caused this damage … and agreed to at least pay for some of the cleanup. ... That sort of stuff is unprecedented.”

8. Land, Belonging & Moral Authority (38:17–42:15)

Deep Connection to Land: Land is not an asset, but a source of identity, spiritual belonging, and moral authority in negotiation. Activists are the "physical face of an invisible army"—their ancestors and descendants.

Quote – Theonila Matbob (39:26): “I'm just a physical face of an invisible army. And that is the power you have when you are... in a conference room ... facing 3,800 people... you see your own people in that. It's deeply spiritual.”

9. The Future of Panguna & Sepik: Hope, Healing, and Sustainable Potential (42:15–44:50)

Visions for Remediation and Sustainability:
The future rests in companies like Rio Tinto fulfilling remediation commitments, and in younger, more informed leaders stepping up. PNG aims for a future not of “metal and poisonous things” but as a provider of food and water.

Quote – Theonila Matbob (42:18):
“Rio Tinto is now on the table with all our leaders ... committing to fund the remediation ... and that we are able to reconcile ... find healing.” Quote – Manu Penny (43:11):
“In Sepik, we understand that the world also needs food and ... instead of digging up metal and poisonous things... they need to have chocolate and vanilla and cabbage... There's a possibility... to be providers of food and water...”

10. Intergenerational Responsibility & Healing (45:40–51:03)

A Legacy for Future Generations:
True healing might not restore the environment, but leaves a story of resistance and accountability for descendants.

Quote – Theonila Matbob (45:40): “…the biggest negligence you can give to the unborn generation is being silent knowingly, and not being able to rise up and ask a single question of accountability…we will not restore everything, but we will need to leave a story that they can hear and … go to another degree of healing...”

11. On Scientific Standards and Corporate Accountability (51:03–54:46)

Scientific Universality, Regulatory Inequality:
The environmental dangers of mining are universal, but standards are inconsistently enforced due to "where" the extraction occurs.
Consumer Responsibility:
Western consumers can influence corporate practices through informed demand and insistence on ethical sourcing.

Quote – Dr. Luke Fletcher (52:16): “The laws of science are universal.… The types of things that are happening in PNG ... just wouldn't happen in Australia... There shouldn't be different rules... [but] sometimes we have a problem in the west of only thinking about what's impacting us.”

Memorable Quotes

“Fix your mess. I didn't ask for it. … No, come back and fix your mess. That's all I know. I'm not alone. I'm just a physical face of an invisible army.”
– Theonila Matbob (01:05)
“My experience today is your future.”
– Theonila Matbob, quoted by Manu Penny (07:33)
“…We should start looking at blaming our unethical and immoral greed and consumerism. It's driving this.”
– Emmanuel Penny (26:17)
“You're not doing this for yourself… you know that that land was shredded not using your economic laws… I owe it to my ancestors and I owe it to my neighbors who are my children. … I know spiritually they are real and they're there.”
– Theonila Matbob (39:26–42:15)

Timestamps for Key Segments

[04:22–07:16]: Panguna mine’s environmental and social legacy
[07:16–09:44]: Sepik community & threats from the Freda River project
[09:44–14:40]: Consent, sovereignty, promises, and the limits of science
[15:31–21:13]: Regulatory double standards; the “green transition” extraction paradox
[21:13–27:04]: Power, delay as resistance, and global consumer complicity
[27:59–33:32]: The psychological and personal toll of environmental defense
[33:32–38:17]: How campaigns succeed: Long-term organizing & unique victories
[38:17–42:15]: Spiritual connection to land as the root of power and persistence
[42:15–44:50]: Imagining a future: healing and hope beyond extraction
[45:40–51:03]: Intergenerational responsibility and recovery
[51:03–54:46]: The universality of science and the necessity of consumer advocacy

Final Reflections

The episode is a powerful testament to local knowledge, community power, and spiritual conviction in shaping the fight against environmental injustices inflicted by transnational extractive industries. Despite the daunting scale of their opponents, PNG’s environmental defenders draw profound strength from their culture, land, and a deep sense of responsibility to ancestors and descendants alike. While the cost is high, their persistent, organized resistance has achieved international recognition and, in the case of Panguna, historic gains towards remediation and accountability.

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Transcript67 lines

[00:00]
Natasha Mitchell
ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.
[00:09]
Narrator/Host
Hello, it's Lisa Leong from this Working Life, helping to make your work life
[00:13]
Theonela Matbob
better with advice from the world's top
[00:15]
Narrator/Host
experts like psychotherapist Esther Perel.
[00:19]
Theonela Matbob
Many conflicts are about power. Power is when I dismiss what you're bringing up. Power is when I magnify a problem
[00:25]
Narrator/Host
and Professor Adam Grant.
[00:27]
Natasha Mitchell
We need to take our critics and
[00:29]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
our cheerleaders and turn them into coaches.
[00:31]
Narrator/Host
Free coach Search for this Working Life
[00:35]
Theonela Matbob
on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:38]
Narrator/Host
When big mining moves in next door or just across the Coral Sea, what happens when the neighbours say no thanks or clean up your mess? And what does it take to resist, to seek justice and sometimes win? That's today on Big Ideas.
[01:06]
Theonela Matbob
Fix your mess. I didn't ask for it. I did not tell my ancestors to paddle to Australia to sign the deal. No, come back and fix your mess. That's all I know. I'm not alone. I'm just a physical face of an invisible army.
[01:24]
Narrator/Host
Former member of the Papua New Guinean Parliament, Theonela Matbob from Central Bougainville, who won this year's internationally prestigious Goldman Environmental Prize for her leadership in human rights complaint against mining giant Rio Tinto over its Panguna copper gold mine operation. Over 17 years, it dumped over a billion tonnes of tailings into local rivers, harming the health of waterways and thousands of people downstream.
[01:55]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
They have got one of the world's biggest companies, and I think maybe the second biggest mining company in the world, Rio Tinto, to admit that their mine caused this damage and they've now agreed to at least pay for some of the cleanup. That sort of stuff is unprecedented.
[02:15]
Narrator/Host
Dr. Luke Fletcher, executive director of Jubilee Australia, a not for profit research and advocacy centre focused on economic justice in the Asia Pacific.
[02:26]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
Our culture is built on not accumulating wealth and not holding wealth. It works in our favor and in the capitalistic world, it ruins us. When I get on a flight and go back to my village, if I live for a month there, I will not spend a single cent or a single dollar. I can survive and be completely healthy.
[02:52]
Narrator/Host
Emmanuel or Manu Penny, who is in Australia for this weekend's Melbourne International Film Festival screening of a documentary He Walks Before Me is about the fight against a copper gold mine proposal by panost, a Chinese owned Australian based company. The Freda River Project is pitched by PANOST as a nation building opportunity for PNG and a transformative sustainable development opportunity for the SEPIC region. But as Executive director of Project Sepic a community led organisation running a campaign against the mine. Manu is fighting to protect the Sepik river, often described as the second Amazon. At 1,100 kilometres long and covering a catchment area of 7.7 million hectares, it is one of PNG's last remaining pristine rivers. On Big Ideas. Hi Natasha Mitchell, taking you to the recent Extracting Justice, Mining Accountability and Community Power in the Pacific conference held at the University of Sydney on Gadigal country to hear stories from PNG environmental and human rights defenders holding Australian mining companies to account for their actions, past, present and future. They join Walkley award winning journalist with Guardian Australia, a former foreign correspondent covering Southeast Asia. Ben Doherty,
[04:22]
Natasha Mitchell
Theanila if I can start by asking you. The last time we met was deep in this valley in Panguna on the island of Bougainville, amid the sort of decaying ruins of what was once the largest mine on earth. We were nearby to a river that was bright blue with copper contamination. We meet now in very different circumstances. But Panguna, once this proud mountain on your country, is still a vast hole in the ground. The river is still an unearthly blue. Can you tell our audience the story of Panguna? What happened to your land and to your people?
[04:56]
Theonela Matbob
Panguna is a mine on Bougainville that was done for 17 years back in the late 1960s going into 70s and it ran for 17 years. It was a British Australian owned run by British Australian mine Camp Rio Tinto and leaving us behind with almost a billion tons of waste that people are living with now. And that project was Papua New Guinea's project that have led Bougainville to go into civil unrest which still remains an unresolved project in the country and Papua New Guinea's first project mistake. For record, on record.
[05:51]
Natasha Mitchell
Can I ask you to expand a little bit more, Thienila? I mean you talk about civil unrest. This was the worst conflict in the Pacific since World War II. It was an incredibly dangerous and difficult time for your people. And tell me about the context now where post mine were post conflict. But what's the context now? Why is it important that we're still talking about Panguna?
[06:09]
Theonela Matbob
So Panguna is an important discussion that needs to keep coming onto the table because it was the reason the devastation of human rights issues and the environment destruction was the cause of the conflict that ran Fubo Inbo in Papua New guinea that impacted the country for 10 years with a political and economic embargo imposed. And that issue has never been resolved. Even when the leaders of Bougainville and the Papua New guinea government reached the agreement, the Bougainville Peace Agreement. There is no single clause dedicated to resolving the Panguna human rights and environmental destruction that have ignited the war in Papua New Guinea. And this is where the importance of closing the earthful legacy of the country comes in. Very important and onto the table. And therefore the discussion is important.
[07:16]
Natasha Mitchell
Manu, it's very nice to see you again as well. You hear Theanila's story and I think you see perhaps a cautionary tale, a sort of salutary warning for your own people. Can you tell me about the Sepik river, the people of that place and the plan for free to mine?
[07:33]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
I'd like to begin by quoting Jem from Theonila. Last night she said, manu, my experience today is your future. And I think that's really. It's deep. And this is the reason why when we see the Sepik river and, and everything around it, we all think we don't want to get there. Sepik river is, as we know, one of the last 10 remaining rivers that is intact and pristine and people still drink from it. It's quiet and it's at its own time. And if you were to drive down to the river, you will not see what we see today here. It's as if people are living and experience the memory of their ancestors. This is our home and it's what provides for us. And that's why we wanting to ensure safety and protection of it so that it continues to sustain itself and sustain life that gives us life.
[08:51]
Natasha Mitchell
Tell me about Freedom Mine. What is proposed for the Sepik River?
[08:55]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
The Freedom Mine is owned by the Guangdong Province of China and it's based in Australia and it's called Panost. It's based out of Brisbane. The company is proposing to build a massive structure at the headwaters of the Sepic River. It intends to mine copper and gold and in the process building an ashtray, building a huge dam that will sort of keep the tailings and at the same time produce electricity. And they still also want to export electricity to Indonesia. They want to build roads and massive structures up at that place. It's promised to bring lots of money for the local community, the province and Papua New Guinea.
[09:45]
Natasha Mitchell
Theanila and Manu, I hear these stories and there are. There are differences in your situation. One is post mine and post conflict, one is this impending risk. But there are also similarities. And it feels like there's a sort of bedrock principle that is common and that is a sense of sovereignty, not in a sort of legalistic or a parliamentary way, but in a more fundamental sense of who's in control, who gets to decide what happens to these lands and to these waters? Is that really what we're talking about? Fundamentally, who's in charge and who's making the decisions?
[10:17]
Theonela Matbob
Absolutely. If you allow the project to come in the way of the sovereignty of the people, you're terminating their food security, you're terminating their access to clean drinking water, you're terminating their access to resources like timber to build their security. Because that is where life begins. You cannot be able to talk about massive stuff, say, for example, in the context of cipic. I'll move out of my context in Bougainville and come to my brother in the cipic. They promise that they will build, the company will build them hospital, airstrip, schools. But with my experience in Bougainville, in everything the rubbish, who can enjoy a flight if you are permanently hungry? And that is why bringing it back and seeing life before cash is very important. And it breaks through political imaginary boundaries and trade competitions and all of those things. That's why I. I am going to go back and say my present in the Pacific. Because what led to Bougainville conflict was the east west, like in the Pacific, post World War II. And it is a good story to keep reminding the conference and any humanity who live on land that my present is your future. If we don't take care of the environment,
[12:07]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
the question of who gets to give consent or who gets to decide is really up for contention. There are lots of people with interest. The company has its own interest. Members of parliament have their own interest. The government, as opposed to the members of Parliament, have their own interest. Other proponents of the mine have their own interest. Maybe one or two people in villages within the area of the mine have their own interest. But ultimately, I think when everybody gets together and it's a collective concern about the possibilities of danger, the possibilities of the threats that are real. For instance, the possibility of the dam to break and destroy, annihilate entire river system life forms. Those collective concerns and threats gives power to whether to say yes or no. And it's ultimately clear in the case for the people of Sipik river and their river, they continue to resist and say, we do not want this. And I don't think a scientist in Australia or scientist in Germany can come up with, oh, we can do deep sea tailings placement and safeguards, the tailings and leakage into the river, or any other scientist, an oceanographer, or someone who knows about volcanic and earthquake can say, look, this is based on science because we heard yesterday that science affects and science are real. And so the facts that work for Australia, Canada, Ireland and New Zealand in terms of banning river disposal and deep sea tailings placement is real for these parts of the world, but it's not real for us. So there is this question of what is, you know, can you be able to use science to convince me? So if, if the collective threats and the collective view of the threats are real, then we are the ultimate people and that the collective, the energy and the strength are the ultimate to give consent to say yes or no.
[14:40]
Narrator/Host
Manu Penny, executive director of Project Sepik, fighting to protect the pristine Sepik river in png, which UNESCO describes as one of the world's greatest river systems. The Australian mining company Panost is proposing a major copper gold mine for the region. And before him you heard from former PNG politician and winner of the 2026 Goldman Environmental Prize, Theonila Matbob. This is Big Ideas on ABC Radio National, I'm Natasha Mitchell. Now, do mining companies operate to different standards in the Pacific than they do in Australia? Back to Guardian Australia's Ben Doherty, who's turning to Dr. Luke Fletcher of Jubilee Australia, a not for profit research and advocacy centre focused on economic justice for the Asia Pacific.
[15:31]
Natasha Mitchell
Luke, we have the examples of Panguna, we have other examples. Octeti Grasberg. Why are mining companies, extractive companies, able to operate in such environmentally destructive ways in the Pacific?
[15:46]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
Yeah, thanks, Ben. It's a fantastic question. And just picking up on what Manu said, we had a mining engineer stand up yesterday at the conference and say that no Australian state or territory would allow or does allow riverine tailings disposal, does allow ocean tailings disposal and I would posit would allow the type of dam that is proposed to be built in Freda river in Australia. Why is that? Because as Marnie said, you're combining a tailings deposit which is somehow going to contain the tailings underwater for basically for eternity. At the same time, a hydro dam which is, when full, the size of 17 Sydney harbours, the volume 17 Sydney harbours and hold that back by a wall that goes across a gorge and say that after the mine is finished, after 50 years, that someone's going to maintain that for a thousand years. I mean, it's fantasy, it's total fantasy. As to your question as to why it's allowed in a place like PNG or other parts of the world, we have the benefit here of an educated population who just wouldn't stand for it and as Manu has said, a lot of the folks along the Sepik river and other parts of, and probably the same would have been true in Bougainville, probably weren't even aware of what was being planned and didn't have the wherewithal to really oppose the developments when they were proposed. You know, well, that's different now for the Sipig, but for the Panguna people, I've heard Theanila say that they just didn't had any idea what they were getting into. So it's partly a public information, very different system of dispersing public information. It's partly, I think, a lack of funding and political influence over the regulators is one where you see regulators making decisions that are not fully independent and not fully allowing, not fully considering the impacts on the environment. And I think cynically it's also partly because companies realise that they can just get away with more stuff there because of all these things. And there are enough people willing to go along with it and there are enough people who believe that the benefits, that is to say the export earnings of whatever you're selling for the copper outweigh the damages. And I think what Manu and Theonella have always said is it's not, it's a devil's bargain that doesn't make sense. But there are some people in power who think it's a bargain worth taking.
[18:43]
Natasha Mitchell
Luke, you've spoken about the global transition rather to renewable energy and the demand that that brings for greater extraction of minerals. Things like copper, nickel, cobalt. These we find all across the Pacific in great abundance. How do you, I, how do you balance that or negotiate that tension, the demands of the green energy transition with safeguarding lands and managing extraction.
[19:10]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
Yeah, and it's a challenge in Australia too, right. Because we have a lot of, we have so many green minerals in Australia as well. So it's not a problem unique to the Pacific. These are debates happening in any mineral rich country in the world right now. There are red lines that we would say should not be crossed. So where are these red lines? So if it's a very important biological area, say a rainforest that allows us to breathe oxygen and protects us from or it will mediate the impacts of climate change. The Sepik, the Frieda river run is right in the middle of the Sepik rainforest, which is right in the middle of the third largest intact rainforest in the world. If the mine gets built the rainforest, the loggers will get more access to the rainforest because of all the new infrastructure and roads. Logging will get worse. More of the rainforest will go. So that's just a really simple case of do you want the forest or do you want the copper? There are other things that we would say about the type of development. So in Australia what you would do with the tailings, right is you would dig them up, you would dry them out and you would stack them somewhere safe until the mine has finished. And then you would re and you would put them back in the pit of where the mine is and then you ideally cover it up and reforest it. And that's the best case, kind of best practice, global best practice now for a mine like this.
[20:38]
Natasha Mitchell
And does that happen?
[20:39]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
It happens a lot of other places in the world. It doesn't happen in png. It's too expensive. Right. And it's logistically complicated when you're in the top of a mountain in the middle of a rainforest. So the companies don't want to do it. And so it's all about getting cheaper copper to the global market rather than protecting the environment. And what we would say is there's plenty of places in the world where there's copper and these other minerals and there's plenty of ways of extracting them in an environmentally and socially appropriate way. It's just we have to insist that companies and regulators do it in the right way.
[21:14]
Natasha Mitchell
The Anila and manufacturing, it sometimes feels an asymmetric contest that you're engaged in. Put it in biblical terms, it's a David versus Goliath sort of battle. These are powerful multinational companies with millions, sometimes billions in the bank. They've got armies of lawyers at their disposal. They have immense influence over mendicant, sometimes corrupt governments. You have none of that. And the only asset that you do have is the land and your right to it. And that's the very thing that's being destroyed or that's being threatened. How do you win that battle?
[21:47]
Theonela Matbob
For the case of Bougainville Pangona, it is not so much the size of the company or the number of people or the institutions we have. I think it is all about understanding what does the structure look like and where are the windows, the weak points. All of this because the story of Panguna is that story where we see the power play between the strong and the weak. I think that is no longer the story in the Pacific. That is no longer the story for Bougainville too. In those days, that kind of transactional investment or project was happening at the time. People were not ready to understand. And for the now, the case that, I mean the Complaint process that we are going through for Panguna is a growing, growing process where the world is now watching. And that's the reason why I said it is about understanding and being knowledgeable to appreciate, even because we can be small, obviously. But if we know where we stand and our identity, that is our power, that is our strength.
[23:16]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
Manu, we'd like to start with the strength we have, which is that we have ultimate control over the safety of our home. But then in Papua New Guinea, I don't know about my other colleagues in the Pacific, we're fortunate to have great law, the constitution, the organic law, and we sing it in our national anthem and the national pledge, so it's all stated clearly. The power we have over our land and our home, that gives great strength to us. And I would like to also believe that Papua New Guineans are already so aware of the dangers of getting into such, such a destructive development, such as the Frida Koppa and several others. We also have the power of the people themselves, knowing that even though they're in the government, even though they're in the bureaucratic level that are giving permits, they're able to also connect to the land themselves. They're not disconnected, they're not Japanese or outside foreigners who are working for the companies and working for the government. So when they make a decision, they know they're making a decision about their families as well. So that connection goes right back, and it's deep and strong. The other thing that is really powerful is the story about how Project cpic started in 2017, I was asked by a funder, Mano, are you going to stop the mine? And I said, no, I'm nobody. I'm fighting against the Australia and the government of Papua New Guinea. The government of China, at that time, the government of Canada also had shares. And so there's so many governments to fight, and the company. But I told the funder, I said, I can promise you I will delay it. I'll delay it for five years. Give me the money. And so the funder supported us. And it's now 10 years, and they still haven't got the permit and the license. So there is hope.
[25:32]
Natasha Mitchell
And is that still the tactic? Is it still just delay, you know, put barriers in the way, keep pushing back, keep pushing back, or do you believe you can stop it?
[25:40]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
The world is in such a hurry to move forward, and it's such a hurry to destroy everything in its path that it will open. My only resolve is that together with other people who believe that we can delay and slow things down. That's all I can do.
[25:59]
Natasha Mitchell
I mean, is that kind of what we're talking about here? That some of the world's poorest people are being asked to kind of pay for the richest people in the world to get even richer? Basically. I mean, there does seem to be a huge disparity between the people who are paying the price for these mines and the people who are gonna benefit from it.
[26:18]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
In other conferences I've always been the one to really totally negative about the world and it's true because at the end of the day, all of us sitting here consume. We're consumers and we're the ones putting the demand for these resources to be exploited, for the earth to be dug up, for the timbers to be cut down. So whatever little things that we do when we buy stuff, when we demand things, when we fly in a plane and all of this, we're all putting that demand. And we can blame the corporations and blame whoever is making the decision, but we should start looking at blaming our unethical and immoral greed and consumerism. It's driving this.
[27:04]
Narrator/Host
The real price of progress. Papua New Guinean environmental and human rights campaigner Emmanuel Omanu Penni on what's driving his community's fight against the major Freda river copper gold mining proposal by panost, which is a Chinese own Australian headquartered mining company. And you're with ABC Radio National's Big Ideas with me, Natasha Mitchell. Now, these sorts of battles come at a huge personal and psychological cost too. And that's where Guardian Australia journalist Ben Doherty is heading next with Emmanuel and the equally tenacious Theanila Matbob from Central Bougainville, winner of the 2026 Goldman Environmental Prize for leading a campaign for the cleanup of Rio Tinto's Panguna copper gold mine.
[27:59]
Natasha Mitchell
Theonela and Manu, can I ask about the personal cost? You know Manu, you just talked about the fact that you've kind of started off from your position, you know, nearly 10 years ago saying, who am I to, you know, I'm just one person, how can I fight against this? But I'm interested in the sort of qualities that make someone say, no, I am going to fight this, I am going to resist. Here both of your lives have borne heavy burdens in your particular struggles. What is the price you pay for resistance?
[28:26]
Theonela Matbob
It really depends on how you see yourself in the activism space. I think for me, the reason why I keep going back to the starting point and understanding my identity as a departing point is because the beauty of the Governance system that we have is deeply rooted with its economic element as well and that is outrightly horizontal. It goes across. We live in our culture, we live for ourselves and our families but we connect it through trade. And that is where you find the fine line in fulfilling your economic needs through trade. And thus goes back to the keynote message I said yesterday about protecting the relationship. Because our economic system is horizontal in the Melanesia we don't dig deep, it's not vertical. Digging is not our economics. It is horizontal. I harvest here today, I move tomorrow. I harvest here while waiting for the left or the right to come back and be ready for the harvest. And that is the reason why we say we pass on that economy or the currency, the earth, to the next generation unattept. You know what I mean? Right. And on that note, for me, I don't see through the lenses of an introduced trade world into and say I am a problem and thus I have to open up my land. No, no, no. It's a cross cultural time and the season for us to start understanding what does my economic system look like. Because I can't identify myself with an introduced economic system that is only going to hurt me, torture me, erode my confidence and make me become fearful and submissive. And it is because of that for me there is no such thing as now I gotta sacrifice this for this. No. I'm a birthing man. I gave birth to two children. I can't give them a broken portion of bougainville to them. No. So there is no burden like in the context of Bougainville there is no burden. But for me, fix your mess. I didn't ask for it. I did not tell my ancestors to paddle to Australia to sign the deal. No, come back and fix your mess.
[31:09]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
That's all huge personal cost. Honestly, Shane Wide, my colleague over there, he asked me something and I said look, it's really unfortunate. We are paid to get angry about everything and anything on a daily basis. It's exhausting. And we're not paid sometimes to even get angry. So yeah, I suffer from anxiety issues. Shane and I, two years ago we had so many calls. Late nights, people breathe into the phones, they ask us where we are, what are you doing? You know I have police around my house. We have to have a policeman in our team. This gentleman was a volunteer and he eventually joined the police force and now continues to support us. Given my other work in other human rights activities, yeah, the anxiety is pretty bad. There are moments or days I just stay at home and Lock all the doors and stay in my room. But I'm not the only one. And this is a call to, to all amazing leaders here. Maybe pause and think about yourselves. Yeah. Even though we're paid to get angry about things, you know, look away. It's hard because, you know, we all want to contribute, we see injustice, we feel it and so it's difficult. But yeah, huge personal cost. I have a son who turned 16 and he tells me all the time, I'll never be like you because you're never happy. So, yeah, it's huge message to everyone. You know, protect yourself. We want to feel things, we empathize, we even, you know, we cry about it when we see it. But yeah, step away and, I don't know, be a chair or a lamppost and not feel anything.
[33:32]
Natasha Mitchell
You've heard from Theoneli, you've heard from Manu very passionately about the personal cost. You've watched their work, you've worked on other campaigns across the Pacific. Can these work? Can community resistance stop the sort of worst excesses? And can it win justice for past wrongs? And if so, how?
[33:51]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
Yeah, thanks. So we called this conference, this Extracting justice conference. The key words at the end were community power, because as Thean and Larry Mana have said, there's all sorts of techniques and strategies that you can use to challenge the worst excesses. There's litigation in the courts, there's non judicial complaints mechanisms that can be useful for publicity and for sometimes transparency. There's, you know, there's the media, there's social media, there's sort of building support outside the communities, which is often helpful in terms of putting pressure on decision makers. So there's all these sorts of strategies and they're all important, but at the end of the day, what really matters is that communities are organised, that the leadership of the communities such as Manu and Theonela are supported to play their role in organising and doing that leadership. And that is the most important asset that one always has. And if you have that asset, as this is the case with both the CPIC campaign and the campaign that Theanilla has been the lead spokesperson of to see clean up of Pangoona Mine, you can achieve incredible things. I mean, if you just look at what Theanilla and the Human Rights Law Centre and the leadership group in Panguna that Theanilla is working with have achieved, they have got one of the world's biggest companies and I think maybe the second biggest mining company in the world, Rio Tinto, to admit that their mine caused this damage that is huge. And not only that, they've got them to fund a study as to understand exactly what the damage is and they've now agreed to at least pay for some of the cleanup. That sort of stuff is unprecedented. I mean it's world. That's the reason why Theanilla was recognised with the Goldman Prize this year. And Theanilla herself would say it's not just for her, it's for the entire campaign. Right. So you can achieve incredible things. I mean, the SEPI campaign has achieved incredible things already in terms of its ability to organise all the villages up and down the river. Whatever happens with the mine, whether it gets stopped, whether it gets delayed and maybe the most harmful impacts modified through the delay, as Manu said, or whether it goes ahead as currently planned. What the organisation that has happened of these, of these community is extraordinary and it's tiring and it's exhausting, as Manu has said. And the impacts are tremendous on the leadership. But we, I guess we wouldn't do this work if we didn't believe that these actions over many years have short and long term impacts. And one thing I just. One final comment on that question, Ben, I would say is that another reason why these are two campaigns in the Pacific that a lot of us look to and are inspired by is that they've had a long duration and that they've year and upon year upon year that, that the goal and the vision and the personnel, I mean the personnel sometimes changes a little bit. But there's been consistent support from the community, from the organisations, from partner organisations outside the country, from funders, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so if you often you're running a campaign and you're getting nowhere and you're getting nowhere, but then something turns, a moment happens. You know, the Dukin Gorge crisis happened for Rio Tinto, which was really important in the PA affair, suddenly becoming one that Rio was prepared to look at because they were so embarrassed about what they'd done in Duke and Gorge in Western Australia. So yeah, waiting for that moment and being part of a campaign and advocacy strategy for many, many years is really important.
[38:17]
Natasha Mitchell
Theanila and Manu, you've spoken very powerfully about your connection to land and connection to place. You speak about your country as sort of fundamental to your being. How, how important is that in the kind of when you go to take on these global giants and what does that give you? Is it a moral authority? Is it sort of something as basic as skin in the game? How does that connection to land equip you?
[38:45]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
I always think that I'm not the only one who feels passionately and strongly about my land. I'd like to think that Dr. Balcomer here, Evelyn, on the other side,
[38:58]
Audience Member/Panelist
and
[38:58]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
every other Papua New Guineans feel the same. And I think it shows clearly with the level of migration to Australia. You have lots of other Pacific islands coming here, but Papua New Guineans are happy to stay on at home yet. It's tough and it's rough a bit, but we connected. We're standing on land, so that's all I can say. Standing on land.
[39:26]
Theonela Matbob
I think for me, how that equips me and my people every time when I'm, like, showing up, you know for sure that you're not alone. Because it is, like, I think because I'm so deeply rooted in my, you know, like it's 13 generations now, right? Since my very first great, great, great great grandmother Poreo, was like, into being, like, from the spirituality into now, the physical people that we are. And because I know every line of the story, I know every name of my ancestors, I know I'm not alone. I'm just a physical face of an invisible army. And that is the power you have when you are sitting in a room or in a conference room, like recently in San Francisco, where you're facing 3,800 people and you don't see them, but you see your own people in that. It's deeply spiritual. And like I said yesterday, I can't trade that. And that is the power. Because you're not doing this for yourself, or you're not doing it because you want to be recognized, but you're doing it because it is responsibility. And that is the power you have. Like, you see no one, but you know that you want your land back, and you know that that land was shredded not using your economic laws. Because if it was using my economic laws and that Pangona was dug out or grazed out, it could be yield. But I know for sure that this result is an application of something foreign. And I owe it to my ancestors and I owe it to my neighbors who are my children. And they're not born yet, but I know spiritually they are real and they're there. And because Rio Tinto sits on the other side, the Human Rights Law center and my community leaders are on this side. In the center is that fault beneath is my sacred site that your mess buried. And every time you're sitting on the table, you want your land back. And it doesn't matter Whether he's a Goliath or seven times bigger than you, so long as you come and answer it using my system. And if there is a lapse between the two cultures, then that is the bit that we need to police together.
[42:15]
Natasha Mitchell
What's the future, Theanila? What's the future for Panguna?
[42:19]
Theonela Matbob
For me the future is Rio Tinto is now on the table with all our leaders and I am looking at them committing and making sure that this process finds the lasting solution in them funding, committing to fund the remediation and ensuring that all the commitments of the recent report that was released after the 18 months of assessment, which is obviously the first, they've never done it before the mine and all of the recommendations being met and that we able to reconcile this and let them go after they restore the image and we can also be able to find healing.
[43:09]
Natasha Mitchell
Manu for the sake of the future
[43:11]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
younger leaders today in Papua New guinea, the emerging ones from various educational institutions, even those who are out in the villages, they are more aware of how the world is organized. And thanks to Mr. Donald Trump, you know, he's put out how worlds organize themselves. We organize so that we are going to go there and start a war there and get their oil or resources. So those ways that these parts of the world organize itself to exploit what they call poor countries or underdeveloped people are already beginning to aware and when they have that knowledge and when they stand on land, I feel that emerging leadership will, there will be more of Cheyenne wide, Evelyn over there, Vicky and myself, we already have, you know, younger person like Theonela here. So the emerging leaders are stepping forward, standing on land. In our experience, in my own town in Sepik, we understand that the world also needs food and needs things. And so instead of digging up metal and poisonous things to feed the army and military warfare, they need to have chocolate and vanilla and cabbage and you know, for what's the Korean pickled cabbage, you know, they need to have that too.
[44:51]
Natasha Mitchell
You had me a chocolate and vanilla. I'm not sure about the cabbage.
[44:53]
Emmanuel (Manu) Penny
So yeah, so yeah, there's a possibility or there's a huge possibility for us to be providers of food and water. And if we were to keep more of our rivers and water sources safe, we could also send water out into the world given that the world has gone ahead and destroyed their water source and food sources. So these are real possibilities, future sustainable futures. And we are not just saying it, we are already doing that in various parts of Papua New Guinea. So those are two promising futures.
[45:36]
Natasha Mitchell
We have a very engaged and knowledgeable audience in today. Are there any questions?
[45:41]
Theonela Matbob
Hi, everyone. Theo, you spoke about imagining your future children and descendants in that room when you won the Goldman Prize. And in thinking about what you would imagine for them in three generations, you won't be here to see it, but what do you imagine for them, what their life might look like? I think to respond to that question, it is not to say this journey that my people and I are doing on behalf of the 15,000 people who are directly impacted by the mine and the legacy that we live with will restore the environment back to where it was. That is not possible, like, you know, realistically. But what I imagine for the next generation or the unborn generation is to leave a reason behind. And that reason that we fought, because the biggest, you know, like, negligence you can give to the unborn generation is being silent knowingly, and not being able to rise up and ask a single question of accountability in that way. Like, say, for example, it was the first engagement, like I mentioned yesterday was with the 10th generation, when Christianity and trade went into our territory, like now, called Bougainville, but it's dupee when in dupe. The first engagement for my family was in the 10th generation, but it was different for all the others. And then they were gifted the faith to practice so that I can be able to be forgiven even to the trade deals, the market demands, all of that. And then into the 11th, the 10th generation, all the business, whatever the marketing demands to feed the factories, happened in the following generation. The 11th generation was the one that kind of started to rise up. And for the Papua New Guinean brothers and sisters whom you would know, the rebel leader Kabwe, who is my grandfather, was like, he comes from that generation that kind of fought and demanded accountability. The generation after him was so weakened that they cannot be able to talk because of, like, institutionalized fear, mistrust, all of that. And for me, like, when I looked at it, I even hated the previous generation. I'm only bringing this out to put a context into what I imagine for the next generation. I am the 13th generation. The 12th went quiet. The 11th kind of fought. The 10th was all forgiving because of they were gifted with faith. It's okay, let's forgive everyone. Even if they terminate your identity, keep forgiving them. So it is because of that, like. But I had to really find my way in. When I started digging into the archives of, you know, how the Colonial administration of Australia wrote a letter to Catholic Church to facilitate all of these things, like it is hell. Like you can't forgive my goodness. Like, I come from a devoted Catholic family, to be very honest. But it was hard, but I had to start finding it deep. How can I separate and continue to engage with the faces of the institutions? So I kind of learned to separate humans from the institution, leadership from the faith practice. It was a lot like. And with that experience for me now giving birth to two children and, you know, like if it's 15,000 now, directly living with the impact and the toxic legacy of the mind, we will not restore everything, but we will need to leave a story that they can hear and from that they can go to another degree of healing to the point that maybe they can be able to be more innovative and look for ways. And look, the reality on Bougainville and the mess that we've inherited is not a thing that you can fix with your bare hands. And that is why the importance of the Pangonamae legacy impact assessment process.
[51:03]
Audience Member/Panelist
Thank you, that's a very good panel. So I ask this question from a place of peace, of love and to seek deeper understanding. And I ask from a background of environmental science, geophysics and natural resource management and a minor in economic and public policy in Papua New Guinea. Some of my lecturers are from Australia and around the world too. And as we know, the main themes of environmental science promote the green and the blue economy, sustainable economic development, growth. My question is, is this the same knowledge base running through our learning institutions here in Australia? 1 and if it is yes, the answer is yes. Then how is it influencing practice and corporate accountability in other spaces, including legal and extractive space here in Australia? Because deep sea tailing, placement and deep sea mining and of course river entailings does not make any science and engineering sense in PNG and the Pacific. So are we all on the same page here in Australia?
[52:14]
Natasha Mitchell
Thank you, Luke, perhaps that's a question for you.
[52:17]
Dr. Luke Fletcher
You're absolutely right. The laws of science are universal. And toxic chemicals, the impact of sediment on rivers, the chemistry is the same either side of the Torres Strait. But the reality is, as we've talked about today, that the types of things that are happening in PNG and places like it just wouldn't happen in Australia just because it's a different country. There shouldn't be different rules. But I think sometimes we have a problem in the west of only thinking about what's impacting us. And some people, let's be honest, they've got a difficulty thing just getting the food on the table for their kids and getting to work and home every day and all that sort of thing. So they just don't necessarily want to think about it. But I'll just say one more thing, touching on what Manu said about consumer power and are the consumers at fault here? No, the consumers are not absolutely at fault here. But what I would say is if you're going to buy an ev, you're going to go buy a Tesla or BYD or something, why not ask your car company, what's your policy on ethical sourcing for the battery minerals, for the lithium, for the nickel, for the copper? Right. Because a lot of these companies are now starting to insist that their suppliers use mines that have been approved by a group called irma, and they go and audit mines where lithium is being extracted, but it could happen in other battery minerals. So I can tell you that these sort of mines would not be approved by that, by that. Now, that's a consumer pressure system and it's not the only solution, by all means, but it's one thing that we consumers in the west could do. In countries like Australia, the broader problem of the weakness of environmental regulators in other countries like png, that's, that's a different problem. But again, I think that comes back to what Manu and Theo are talking about, about organising in country, organising your community there with the support from allies here and other places, and just slow, gradual organising to try and transform the system so that the regulators do do a better job and so the politicians allow them to do that. That's, I think, the best answer I can give to that.
[54:47]
Natasha Mitchell
Ladies and gentlemen, it's been a real privilege to listen to our extraordinary panel, full of passion, full of energy and full of moral clarity. Can I ask you to thank Thea, Neela Matbob, Emmanuel Penny and Luke Fletcher
[55:01]
Narrator/Host
and you can find and follow Big Ideas on abc. Listen to hear or share today's episode or wherever else you grab your podcasts. The film about the Sepik river community's fight against the proposed Freda river mine by the Chinese owned Australian incorporated company Panost, screens at the Melbourne International Film Festival this weekend. That's the 7th and 8th of August, and Sukun Dimi Walks Before Me is due for general release in Australia later this year. Its co producer, the executive director of Project Sepic, Emanuel Penny, who you heard from today, will be speaking at one of the screenings. Big Ideas requested comment from panost, but we haven't heard back yet. Here is part of what became company states on its website. Frieda River Copper Gold Project will not dispose of its waste into the river system. It will protect the sepic ecosystem at all costs. PANOST does not take lightly its commitment to ensuring the safe design, safe construction and safe operation of the dam. PANOST is mindful of the ecosystem it is in, including its host communities. End of quote. At the Extracting Justice Conference, you also heard from Theanila Matt Bob, winner of the 2026 Goldman Environmental Prize, executive director of Jubilee Australia, Dr. Luke Fletcher, and Guardian Australia's Ben Doherty was asking the questions. If you want to get in touch, our Email address big ideasbc.net au I'm Natasha Mitchell, back next time with more big stories and big ideas.
[56:36]
Natasha Mitchell
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The PNG environmental defenders taking on Australian mining giants — what is extractive justice and its toll?

The PNG environmental defenders taking on Australian mining giants — what is extractive justice and its toll?

Big Ideas – ABC Australia

Episode: The PNG Environmental Defenders Taking on Australian Mining Giants — What is Extractive Justice and Its Toll?

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy of Panguna: Post-Conflict, Post-Mine (04:22–07:16)

2. The Sepik River: An Impending Risk (07:16–09:44)

3. Sovereignty, Consent & the True Decision Makers (09:44–14:40)

4. Why Double Standards? The Global Mining Quandary (15:31–21:13)

5. Community Power & Resistance: David vs Goliath (21:13–27:04)

6. The Personal Cost of Defending Land (27:59–33:32)

7. Can Community Campaigns Achieve Justice? (33:32–38:17)

8. Land, Belonging & Moral Authority (38:17–42:15)

9. The Future of Panguna & Sepik: Hope, Healing, and Sustainable Potential (42:15–44:50)

10. Intergenerational Responsibility & Healing (45:40–51:03)

11. On Scientific Standards and Corporate Accountability (51:03–54:46)

Memorable Quotes

Timestamps for Key Segments

Final Reflections

Big Ideas – ABC Australia

Episode: The PNG Environmental Defenders Taking on Australian Mining Giants — What is Extractive Justice and Its Toll?

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy of Panguna: Post-Conflict, Post-Mine (04:22–07:16)

2. The Sepik River: An Impending Risk (07:16–09:44)

3. Sovereignty, Consent & the True Decision Makers (09:44–14:40)

4. Why Double Standards? The Global Mining Quandary (15:31–21:13)

5. Community Power & Resistance: David vs Goliath (21:13–27:04)

6. The Personal Cost of Defending Land (27:59–33:32)

7. Can Community Campaigns Achieve Justice? (33:32–38:17)

8. Land, Belonging & Moral Authority (38:17–42:15)

9. The Future of Panguna & Sepik: Hope, Healing, and Sustainable Potential (42:15–44:50)

10. Intergenerational Responsibility & Healing (45:40–51:03)

11. On Scientific Standards and Corporate Accountability (51:03–54:46)

Memorable Quotes

Timestamps for Key Segments

Final Reflections