"Thunderbirds!" Deep Dive

Summary

Bigfoot Collectors Club

Host: Wood Elf Media

Episode: "Thunderbirds!" Deep Dive

Date: February 18, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this lively and comically high-spirited deep dive, hosts Michael McMillian and Riley Bray embark on a comprehensive exploration of Thunderbirds—a legendary cryptid prevalent in Indigenous North American mythology and American Fortean folklore. Tracing tales from 19th-century newspaper accounts to modern sightings and petroglyphs, the hosts dissect the myth’s evolution, possible origins, hoaxes, and the intersection of legend, paleontology, and cultural memory. The conversation features personal anecdotes, historical digressions, and ample banter, all characteristic of Bigfoot Collectors Club’s trademark blend of skepticism and open-minded curiosity.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

---

Setting the Stage: Thunderbird Hype and Origins

• Main Theme Introduction (04:12–05:38)
  • This is the first deep dive episode of 2026, following months of research into winged cryptids and humanoids.
  • Michael frames the Thunderbird as "deeply rooted in Native American first people's mythology" (10:17), with a complex place in both folklore and cryptozoology.

“Thunderbirds: deeply rooted in Native American first peoples’ mythology... Perhaps storytelling accounts.”
— Riley Bray (10:17)

---

The Tombstone Thunderbird: Old West Encounters and Yellow Journalism

The Tombstone Epitaph Account (05:38–09:43)

• April 26, 1890: Tombstone, Arizona. Two ranchers reportedly confront a massive, exhausted "flying monstrosity" resembling an alligator with bat wings (07:09).
• After shooting the creature, they cut off part of its wing as proof but allegedly fail to recover the entire body—leaving a story with no follow-up and much speculation.

“Now too large to drag back to town on horseback, the men apparently cut off a bit of the creature's wing and rode back into Tombstone...”
— Michael McMillian (07:27)

• The encounter is later dubbed "The Tombstone Thunderbird," despite its dragon-like, non-avian description.
• The story resurfaces periodically, becoming a staple of cryptozoological lore and seeding rumors of a mysterious Thunderbird photograph.

---

The Elusive Thunderbird Photograph

Folklore of the Fabled Photo (53:42–62:35)

• Many cryptozoologists (John Keel, Ivan T. Sanderson, etc.) claim to have seen or owned a lost photograph: a group of men posing beneath a gigantic, barn-nailed bird.

• Artist Andrew Minier redraws the image from memory, convinced as a child he saw it in a book:

  "I'm confident that the photograph I saw was an image of a gigantic eagle-like raptor, definitely with a hooked beak and most likely with a feathered head and neck."
  — Andrew Minier, as quoted by Riley Bray (54:13)

• The earliest traceable source—an old Pennsylvania folklorist named Hiram M. Cranmer—shares the story both in print and in letters to Fortean magazines (59:59–61:08).

• Hosts suggest it’s either a tall tale, an early photographic hoax or “tall-tale postcard,” or a collective false memory (Mandal Effect–style).

• Michael notes that nailing big birds to barn doors was a real practice and that tall-tale composite photo postcards were popular in the early 20th century (65:20).

---

Thunderbird in Indigenous Myth & Petroglyphs

Folkloric and Artistic Depictions (12:08–13:46, 26:02–31:07)

• Thunderbird is “an eagle or condor-like spirit bird” said to create thunder and lightning by flapping its wings—often in spiritual opposition to serpentine underworld beings.
• "Why, if totem poles include real, local animals, would Thunderbird and beings like Wild Man (akin to Sasquatch) be the only fictional ones?" Michael ponders (13:28).
• Historic petroglyphs and art in Illinois, Missouri, Minnesota, and beyond depict the Thunderbird as a large, square-winged bird, distinct from eagle designs.

“Are these petroglyphs, you know, recording something that the naked eye is seeing in nature?”
— Michael McMillian (30:53)

---

Examination of Modern and Historical Sightings

San Diego "Dragon" Account (14:00–17:35)

• Within months of Tombstone’s article, a San Diego newspaper prints an account of a child seeing a similar flying creature—"pale and frightened" insisting he saw "the devil." The child validates his claim after viewing an illustration like that from the Tombstone story.

Illinois as Thunderbird Hotspot (22:28–24:11, 31:59–36:06)

• 1948, Alton, Illinois: Multiple credible witnesses (including Army Colonel Walter F. Sigmund and local flight instructors) report "condor-sized" black birds casting plane-sized shadows.
• The mayor of St. Louis sends an aide on an absurd quest to capture a Thunderbird (23:28–24:11) ("Take the St. Louis Arch and you make a big bird net out of it...").
• Links to ancient local myth: The Piasa bird—described by French missionary Jacques Marquette (in a heavily accented reading by Riley, 26:54)—is a chimera with eagle beak, antlers, scales, and a fish tail.

---

The Lawndale Attack & "Chief AJ" (1977)

The Lawndale, Illinois Incident (32:50–36:06)

• In July 1977, Ruth Lowe witnesses a gigantic black bird drag her ten-year-old son Marlin 35 feet by the collar before releasing him (33:54).

  "Ruth ran to her son’s rescue, attacking the bird, which ultimately gave up..." (35:03)

• Bird described as black with a white neck ring, 9-foot wingspan—much larger than any local turkey vulture.

The Saga of Chief AJ Huffer (36:09–45:10)

• Local photographer and “colorful character” Chief AJ claims to film two enormous birds over Lake Shelbyville. His credentials and personal flair—ex-Marine, self-described Native American, record-holder, slingshot inventor—become a comedic subplot (41:12–45:10).

  “Month of July, 1977, many reports of giant living Thunderbirds... I, Chief A.J.... was called upon by CBS television to try to film a living Thunderbird."
  — Chief AJ (37:13)

• Experts later identify the birds as likely turkey vultures or Andean condors, though neither explain the predatory behavior witnessed by the Lowe family.

---

Scientific Candidates & Cultural Theories

Explanations for Giant Bird Sightings (45:15–51:17, 47:49–50:16)

• Modern possibilities:
  • Turkey vulture, Andean condor, California condor (all large but rarely matching the color, size, or talon strength described).
  • Migratory birds lost or relocated due to climate, or even escaped exotics.
• Relic species: Hosts discuss the Teratornis, a Pleistocene bird with 17–24 foot wingspans (reading from Laurin Coleman’s "Cryptozoology A to Z" at 48:46).
• Oral and cultural memory: The continuing presence of Thunderbirds in Indigenous tradition and American folklore may be an echo of very real, now-extinct megafauna, kept alive through storytelling long after physical extinction (48:07–48:23).
• Some stories—involving dragon-like flying reptiles—are suspected to be imaginative yellow journalism, tall tales, or the product of old West storytelling culture.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Sighting Reliability:

“You know, two cowboys and a little boy—those are our eyewitnesses. How reliable are we?”
— Michael McMillian (67:41)

On the Collective Memory Angle:

“This was a real creature that lived and died some thousands of years ago... It’s embedded in our collective memory and passed down through ancestry and stories and oral tradition.”
— Riley Bray (63:21)

On Historical Documentation:

“Without Fate [magazine], there’s a lot of stuff we don’t get. We don’t get Men in Black. We don’t get the Shaver Lake mysteries.”
— Michael (57:16)

Thunderbirds’ Place in Imagination:

“It’s like the giant eagles from Lord of the Rings... but like a goth raven.”
— Riley (62:28)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Show Premise: 00:57–04:12
• Thunderbird Overview & Mythology: 09:44–14:00
• The Tombstone Thunderbird Account: 05:38–09:43
• San Diego Dragon Story: 14:00–17:35
• Illinois Sighting Flaps: 22:28–31:07
• Piasa Bird Mural & Marquette Reading: 26:02–28:45
• Lawndale "Attack" and Chief AJ’s Film: 32:50–45:10
• Cultural and Scientific Theories: 45:15–50:24
• Lost Thunderbird Photograph & Memory: 53:42–62:35
• Conclusions & Final Thoughts: 66:17–67:55

---

Resources & References (As Mentioned)

• [Video of Chief AJ’s Thunderbird Footage](YouTube link cited manually by hosts) (37:09)
• Petroglyph references via Kids Britannica and other archive links (28:26, 29:28)
• Cryptozoology A to Z by Lauren Coleman (48:46)
• Blog post by researcher Kevin J. Gull on the "Lost Thunderbird Photo" (53:44 and 65:20)

---

Tone & Style

• The conversation is playful, self-aware, and peppered with asides, but also demonstrates sincere interest in cultural history and natural science.
• Both hosts share personal and speculative takes but emphasize plausible explanations by show’s close.
• Comic moments abound (extended riffing on Chief AJ’s slingshots and life story, the futile mission to net a Thunderbird with the St. Louis Arch, and affectionate ribbing on folklore’s unreliable witnesses).
• Thematic focus is grounded in respectful discussion of Indigenous myth but open to skepticism regarding latter-day cryptozoological claims.

---

Takeaways

• Thunderbird legend is likely rooted in both real ancestral megafauna and reinforced by continuing oral and artistic traditions.
• Many contemporary sightings are explainable via misidentification of known large birds, climate shifts in migration, escaped exotics, or tall-tale storytelling.
• The "lost photo" is probably a product of folklore, manipulated memory, or early hoax photography.
• The episode ultimately celebrates the intersection of natural history, myth, and collective imagination—characterizing the Thunderbird as an example of the blurry border between observed reality and communal storytelling.

---

End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

Time is valuable. That's why Lowe's blueprint takeoffs turn blueprints into quotes faster. Bring us your plans and we'll generate itemized material lists to make quoting easier so you can get back to Building Plus. At the Lowes Pro desk, you get access to thousands of building materials not sold in store. And when your order's ready, we'll deliver everything to the job site. Improving is easy at Lowe's. It's bigfoot collectors club with michael and riley. I know a story of highest rangeness or two. Let's do this.

[B]

Hello, everyone. Hey, everybody, and welcome to Bigfoot Collectors Club, the show where we talk to amazing guests about their personal paranormal, normal history and share stories of high strangeness. I'm your host, Michael McMillan, and with me always is the tune Smith of Topanga Canyon, Riley Bray. Submitted by Jimmy Kiwi. Thank you. Jimmy. Listen, don't be trying to. DoX Ultra Terrestrial producer Riley Bray. And I'm just going to say to everyone who thinks they know where you live now, they missed their mark.

[A]

Or no, they're correct.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You nailed it, Jim. Nailed it. Nailed it.

[A]

Old Topanga Canyon Road. That's where I live.

[B]

111 Topanga Canyon Lane Ultra Terrestrial Station. I'm sorry. I was cracking up because at the beginning of the episode when I was coming in with the intro, I was like, wow, I really sound like an NPR host today. And then I stumbled on my words. Oh, and then I cracked up.

[A]

That happens to be when I'm playing guitar sometimes or playing bass, where I'm like, oh, this sounds so good. And then I forget that I have to be playing, and I'm like, oh, no.

[B]

Then you get glares from your band mates.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it happens.

[B]

You know, Let me take a little sippy on. Little sippy on my bottle on the baba. How are you, Riley?

[A]

I'm good, man. Caitlyn was gone last night, so I was staying up late writing code, building little bots.

[C]

Bots.

[B]

Little bot babies.

[A]

Bot friends.

[B]

Yeah, that's fun. How many bot friends are you going to have by the end of March?

[A]

More than human friends. And I have a lot of human friends.

[B]

Okay. Building your little bot army over there. Peace. Drone.net I'm going to plug it for you.

[A]

Dude, it crossed 4,000 monthly users yesterday.

[B]

Hell, yeah, buddy.

[A]

Milestone. Yeah. Exciting.

[B]

Great.

[A]

My biggest company, our country this month was France, too, which is interesting.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. Have you ever listened to air? I have Fortet. They love their. Their crazy sounds, their beeps and their boobs. Naming two like 25 year old bands.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we're hip.

[B]

Listen, Taste Freeze hit me over 10 years ago. All right, everybody. So although I have to say I was watching briefly the Grammys, which I know aren't always the most contemporary with people at. At Birds down in. Down in Franklin Village. I caught the first few minutes of it and there were a lot of people being like, who's that? Who's this? And I was like, I've seen them before.

[A]

I know about that.

[B]

I know about that. Also, I do love Sabrina Carpenter. She is just what's not to love? She's delightful, so fun, so funny. I gotta watch that new Muppet reboot. Oh yeah, she's guest starring on it. I think I'm a fan of Sabrina Carpenters.

[A]

Hey, nothing wrong with that.

[B]

Love Man Child. It's a great song. Great.

[A]

Set me some Chapel Roan too.

[B]

Oh, I love Chapel Roan.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Good interlocking kid. That's all I'm saying.

[A]

Yeah, the girly pop is going strong these days.

[B]

Yeah, I appreciate it. Okay, so here's what we're doing today. We have our first deep dive episode of 2026. It's a single parter, but it comes on the ED on the end trail. On the end trails. We will be talking about birds of prey.

[A]

So there will be entrails.

[B]

Comes at the end of a sort of months long research examination into winged cryptids, winged humanoids. That really started in late November, December over on the other side. So this is just a natural progression. And we talked about it over there. I was like, I gotta do this topic and it's gotta happen soon. And it's going to. Before we get into that any business. I guess just club clubhouse keeping is just a reminder that we do have merch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you want to grab merch, go go. Over in the show notes. Clink, clink. The link in our show notes.

[A]

Clink on down, my babies, clink on down.

[B]

And get yourself a little cap, a little tea, whatever you want. And then if you haven't joined us over at BCC clubhouse over at bcc.supercast.com please do so because you would have heard the whole ramp up to this. Okay, do we just want to do it?

[A]

Let's just do it. Let's get into it. You gotta just dive in the deep.

[B]

Let's dive into these entrails, everybody. Here we go. On Saturday, April 26, 1890, the tombstone epitaph of Tombstone, Arizona ran an article featuring a jaw dropping encounter between two ranchers and some sort of flying monstrosity out in the gap between Whetstone and Huacha Mountains. The article titled Found in the Desert regaled its readership with how the two ranchers were astride their horses when they witnessed a large, smooth, alligator like creature with bat wings wobbling in a distressed manner low above the desert floor, evidently greatly exhausted by a long flight. It was broad daylight, allowing the men to get a good eyeful of the dragon like beasts they were witnessing clumsily skidding across the earth. Its wingspan was judged to be about 160ft from tip to tail, tip to tip. And the wings were composed of a thin membrane that were almost transparent. The monster had the eyes the size of dinner plates and its mouth was lined with massive sharp teeth. As us. As the legendary story goes, the ranchers followed the beast for miles until they were close enough to get a clean shot. Racer rifles and fired.

[A]

Gotta shoot it. Yeah.

[B]

Goddess, what the hell is this thing? It looks like it's in distress. Let's kill it. And they put the poor creature out of its misery. Too large.

[A]

They shot it. They killed it.

[B]

They shot it. And they killed it. Allegedly.

[A]

Allegedly.

[B]

Now too large to drag back to town on horseback, the men apparently cut off a bit of the creature's wing and rode back into Tombstone where they claimed that they would gather a posse of men to go back and collect the monster's remains. And that is where that story ends. No follow up in the epitaph about what happened to this flying crocodilian beast.

[A]

They all got drunk at the saloon.

[B]

Yeah, they got distracted at Gertie's. The creature whose story would be republished in national newspapers for years that followed would find new Life in the 1960s. Saga magazine eventually became known as the Tombstone Thunderbird despite its very unbird like appearance.

[A]

Very unbird like.

[B]

Very unbut like. It's got scales, it's smooth. And an alligator's head. Now, this story captured the imaginations of multiple generations of cryptozoologists and paranormal investigators and even spawned a mystery within itself. Another puzzle to come out of the Thunderbird mystery is decades old debate among cryptozoologists over the existence of a photograph depicting a group of men and a dead Thunderbird that was allegedly taken in Tombstone back in the late 1890s. But I'm getting ahead of myself. We'll circle back to that later. The Tombstone creature is just one of many captivating giant flying cryptid stories that have been stuck together under the category of this week's topic of High strangeness. Thunderbirds. Now, I. As I said, I went over a bit of a winged humanoid run over the. The hiatus, even though we were still over on the other side. And this has been a topic that I've wanted to do since the beginning bcc. And I'm very excited and I'm very pleased because I think we're going to have a lot of fun today because this topic proved to be even more interesting than I thought it would be. There's some great stuff in here.

[A]

Okay, cool.

[B]

So let's. Let's kick off the. Steve, let's kick off the deep dive by with tradition and ask you, Riley, what do you know about Thunderbirds?

[A]

Well, first off, the tombstone epitaph is maybe the coolest name of a newspaper that has ever existed.

[B]

100%.

[A]

That just. I had to mention that could not.

[B]

Be more in character for the town. Yeah, no, they were like, it's just brilliant.

[A]

Yeah, it's good poetry.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Yeah, truly. Truly Old west poetry. Thunderbirds. Deeply rooted in Native American first people's mythology. Yes. Perhaps storytelling accounts.

[B]

Well, sure.

[A]

I would say there's got to be some overlap with dragons and dragon lore there.

[B]

I mean, I feel like we've already talked about a dragon.

[A]

Seems like it very.

[B]

In the first 10 minutes of the show.

[A]

Yeah, that's it.

[B]

I mean, if you were. If you were to just. Yeah, I was gonna say, if you were to describe a Thunderbird, what would you describe? Like, how would you describe it?

[A]

You know, bigger than a condor. We're talking like plain sized birds.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That rule the skies and maybe are related to like thunder and lightning. Maybe. I don't know.

[B]

I mean, 160ft from tip to wingtip to wingtip is like a Boeing. That's like a massive.

[A]

Yeah, that's a big plan.

[B]

And I think later in the 1960s in Saga magazine, they like dropped it down to like 30 or 40ft. You know, they made it very large. Yeah, still very, very large. Some people say that claim to have seen these. And we'll get into some of these eyewitness accounts that they're a size about. Of a Cessna. About the size of a Cessna plane.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

There's a stretch in Alaska, on the southern coast of Alaska where people see these things and they. They look like. They say they look like giant eagles to this day.

[A]

They still see these things.

[B]

Yeah, like occasionally. You know what I mean? I would say within the last 30 years. And people who are flying their little puddle jumpers are like, this thing is the size of my Own plane.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So the Thunderbird is a giant eagle or condor like spirit bird found in the indigenous folklore of multiple American Indian nations. Conquin people claimed the Thunderbird could create thunder and lightning with the flapping of its wings. And it was the nemesis of the great horned serpent of the underworld. So he's a good guy. He's like the Superman of birds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right.

[B]

They are depicted as noble beings who may sometimes shape shift into human form. Their totems can be found alongside or on top of other birds, like eagles, hummingbirds, woodpeckers, all real animals and all who hold significant spiritual meaning to indigenous tribes of North America alongside many other animals found routinely in nature. So the question is, if all the other animals in these stories are real and on these totem poles, then why is the Thunderbird and maybe the wild man, also called the Tanaqua, why are they can. Why are they the only fictional characters? So, basically, we've got beavers, we've got raccoons, we've got hummingbirds, we've got eagles, we've got woodpeckers, and then we have thunderbirds and sometimes wildman, who basically doubles as Sasquatch.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

So. And also, all of these animals had significant spiritual meaning in these cultures. So there's an argument, if all these other animals are real, then why is the Thunderbird fake? And why is maybe Bigfoot fake? Just some. Just something to think about. Food for thought.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, it could be that it's like sort of like, you know, like the, you know, whole, like, God created man in his image. So this is like the bird God kind of.

[B]

Sure, yes.

[A]

Throwing it out there.

[B]

Throw it on out. I think that there might be an answer to this one. Maybe not the Bigfoot. We're not. We're not gonna. We're not going to really talk about Bigfoot for the rest of this episode, but I think. Think there's a possible answer for the Thunderbird thing, but we'll get into it. A few months after the Tombstone Thunderbird story that appeared in the Epitaph, the same article was published or. Sorry, excuse me a. After that story was published, an article about a young boy who spotted a flying reptilian creature appeared in the June 12 edition of the sand of the San Diego paper, the Sunday examiner, and it reads, an aerial monster, what Judge Diller's little boy claims to have seen. The Sunday examiner contained an account of a winged monstrosity that had been shot and killed by some men in Arizona. It was described as a species of animal hitherto totally unknown in the world, with enormous bat like wings, the beak of a crocodile and the elongated body and a tall twisted tail like a coil of electric wires. The story read like an examiner fake, but semi corroboration is furnished by a local incident. Several days ago the young son of Judge Diller ran pale and frightened to the house exclaiming papa, I have just seen the devil. He declared that while out on the hills in City park, he saw an enormous creature flying through the air with bat like wings, long bill and a tail twisted like a donut. His father laughed at such a notion. But the little fellow stoutly held on to his story. He said it flew towards the east. Yesterday he was questioned again about it and repeated just what he had seen previously. On being shown a picture of the monster reported to have been shot in Arizona, he declared it looked just like the creature he had seen. Of course both stories are improbable, but the coincidence is just a trifle peculiar.

[A]

Now some good old west journalism right there.

[B]

I love it. So actually I think I misquoted myself here. So the, the story that they're talking about in the San Diego paper is referring to a story from the Sunday examiner which was in San Francisco that ran the story about Tombstone. And then they ran their own story about this little kid seeing a dragon in San Diego. And there's a couple points about this article that I want to make. It was published in June, but it makes no specific date of the kids encounter, just that it took place several days ago. And I guess it wasn't unusual for stories, especially of this variety back in the day to go a long time without being published.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And this story about the Arizona dragon or the Tombstone Thunderbird circulated for two or three more years after it was originally published. So some people would get the news much later than others because that's just the way news traveled back then. And that's. Editors are like, okay, we've got this story, put it in the paper today. So we don't know exactly when this encounter took place with this kid, just that it was published in June. And then the picture that the kid was shown was not a photo, but it was an illustration of the creature from the San Francisco examiner that had picked up the Tombstone story. And it's this cartoony looking crocodile creature with bat wings and you can see the two ranchers running along trying to shoot it and then like the, the like mountains of Arizona in the background.

[A]

Yeah, this is. And he is a. Just a silly little guy, and he's going, oh, no.

[B]

And the caption of the drawing says, the monster was evidently exhausted and being murdered at the same time.

[A]

Wow. Yeah.

[B]

So is it possible that the Lil Diller's encounter with Satan was actually the same creature shot and killed by the ranchers before it flew out east to Arizona? I ask you this. Well, what could these flying creatures be, Riley?

[A]

I think that we'll find out right after this break.

[B]

That's right. Okay. And with the sound of that can being opened. We're back. What are you sipping on over there?

[A]

It's these new energy drinks I've been trying called Gorgies. Ooh. Kaylin's been getting them and they are good.

[B]

Not a sponsor, not paid promotion, just a good drink. Okay, I'll check it out. What flavor? You sit.

[A]

They have ridiculous names. Let's see. This one is the. Oh, no, these aren't the ones. The other ones had, like, names of people that I have no idea who they are. This is just the sparkling watermelon splash.

[B]

That sounds good. I just want to say, since we were on our break, it was the San Diego Weekly Union that told the story about Judge Diller's little boy. Okay, okay. So the first obvious candidates for thunderbirds, at least in the context of the San Diego Dragon and the Tombstone Thunderbird, is obvious. Dinosaurs.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

As we went. Yeah. As we recently discussed in the Big Bird of Rio Grande Valley, over on the other side, in the 1970s, a group of Texas teachers pulled over on their way to school when they saw two enormous creatures flying over a field that they later identified as a pteranodon. And yes, I mispronounced that almost every other time that I've done this in the past. I was confusing pteranodons with pterosaurs and calling them pterodons. So I apologize, everybody. Who cares? You're on mute. Riley, what happened? Did you burp and mute yourself?

[A]

I was just adjusting things and then forgot to unmute. Did we get. Did we get a letter from a dino nerd? Did we get a.

[B]

Well, actually we didn't, but there were some people being like, michael doesn't know how to pronounce this. And I was all. I think it was a combination of two things. One, I was saying it wrong, and two, I was also jokingly adding a P every now and then.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

And so someone on the discord was like, michael doesn't know how to say this word and it's your half true. Part of it was self imposed hilarity. And the other was just being a lazy reader. So Pter, Pteranodons, Pterodactyls, Quetzalcoatlus and Dimophodon, just to name a few, are pronouncing dinosaurs now. Yeah, all types of pterosaurs that would fit descriptions. The descriptions of the Tombstone Thunderbird, the San Diego Dragon, and the creature spotted in Texas by the school teachers. But these types of time placed pterosaur stories, time displaced, I should say, are pretty few and far between. Modern thunderbird stories pretty much always involve creatures that are traditionally more avian and in design, like the thunderbird totem itself. So past that with. With the exception of the big bird of Rio Grande Valley, which definitely had some dinosaur like descriptions, like people were saying it was like a monkey with a beak. Most of the stories that we're going to focus on today, the Thunderbirds look like birds passed the early turn of the century. So it's confusing but fun and mysterious. Before we circle back to possible scientific explanations for thunderbird sightings, and let me tell you, I don't know if there really are any, let's consider these encounter stories. A hot spot for Thunderbird activity in the past has been the good old state of Illinois. Back in the 1940s, in the town of Alton, Illinois, there was a large flap of bird, big bird sightings. On April 4, 1948, Army Colonel Walter F. Sigmund was chewing straw with a local farmer when they both looked up to see an enormous black bird flying overhead.

[A]

I thought there was something wrong with my eyesight, but it was most definitely a bird and not a glider or a jet plane. It appeared to be flying northeast, and from the movements of the object and its size, I figured it had to be a bird of tremendous size.

[B]

So we're talking small plane sized bird, big black bird, and we're going to hear this over and over again, Especially in these cases. In Illinois, the birds were mostly all black, with the exception of one very important case that we're about to get to. Over the next few weeks, more and more people claim to see enormous black birds resembling eagles the size of small planes in the skies above Alton, including some flight instructors that saw one of the birds cast a shadow the size of a piper cub from 500ft up. Eloise Kaufman, mayor of St. Louis, was so enamored with these sightings that he sent an underling to capture a genuine Thunderbird.

[A]

I love this.

[B]

Imagine you're working for the mayor of St. Louis. He calls you into your office and you're like, oh, it's My big. It's my big day. I'm going to help settle some municipal problem. And he says, leroy, I need you to get out there and capture a Thunderbird. Drive three hours to Alton, Illinois and get me a Thunderbird.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You're like, yeah. He was so enamored, but not quite enamored enough to go himself.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's sending his own personal Jimmy Olsen to go do this for him.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And imagine he's like, what am I gonna do? My boss expects me to capture a bird the size of an airplane and bring it back to town hall.

[A]

Don't you come back without that airplane bird for its job.

[B]

You take the St. Louis Arch and you make a big bird net out of it. And you take that out to Alton, Illinois and you catch me a Thunderbird. Jimmy, Imagine just driving out there and you know, back then the cars were so, so much slower. There's no freeways. Like, that's a weekend. Your whole weekend. Like you just gotten engaged and now your fiance's mad at you because you have to drive. You have to spend the weekend in Alton looking for a Thunderbird.

[A]

That's a good setup for a movie right there.

[B]

It's true. So the mission failed, of course.

[A]

Wow. Shocking.

[B]

But the mayor was satiated when his man returned with photographs of large tracks made by a great blue her.

[A]

That too. He's like, let's just. Just take some pictures of these bird tracks. It's. He'll forget about it next week.

[B]

By the way, Gray blue heron. Not big enough nor the right color or anything to match any of these descriptions.

[A]

But yeah, I'm sure the bear is like, by God, I knew you were my man. My man for the job.

[B]

I bet that mirror saw King Kong and is like, like immediately was like, go get me a giant. Get to Skull island and get me a giant gorilla.

[A]

Oh, man. Yeah, well, politicians haven't changed.

[B]

Now, interestingly enough, there have been legends of enormous birds in Illinois dating back thousands of years. And this is really cool. On the bluffs of the Mississippi river in Alton, one can find an old mural depicting the Piasa bird, A man eating dragon like creature with a fox head, an eagle's beak, wings and scales.

[A]

Classic.

[B]

Classic Chimera. I put a link for you to check this out. There's a really cool mural here. I want you to describe it to me. It looks. It looks very medieval now.

[A]

It does.

[B]

The current version of this mural is a recreation of a petroglyph that was etched on limestone. And over the years Weather, mining, everything. That petroglyph disappeared, okay. But it caught the attention of Jesuit missionary Jacques Marquette, who came across it during his expedition of the Mississippi. Now, I don't know how your French accent is, but do you want to try to take a stab at this? You want to be a French explorer joke?

[A]

Yes. Okay. Baguette. Baguette. Croissant.

[B]

Croissants.

[A]

We saw upon them two painted monsters, which at first made us afraid and upon which the baldy savages dare not long rest their eyes. They are as large as a calf, and they have horns on their heads like those of a deer. A horrible look. Red eyes. A beard like a tiger's face. A face somewhat like a man's. A body covered with scales and so long a tail that it winds A windy wind. A wind around. All around the body, passing above the head and going back between the legs, ending in a fish's tail.

[B]

Honestly, best performance to date by you, I think. Thank you. There were glimpses of Puss in Boots in there, but overall it was very good.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

You.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

So again, here we have something that is to contradict myself from earlier. This feels more dragon like horns.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Scales. Beard like a tiger. Long. A tail so long that it winds around the body and then goes back to between the legs, ending in a fish's tail. So the. The p. I would not say a one to one of a thunderbird, but here we have an example of big flying dragon like creatures being part of the local folklore dating years and years and years back.

[A]

Yes, it's in the neighborhood for sure. I also really appreciate that you linked me to the kids. Britannica.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

Did you have. Did you have kids kids encyclopedias growing up?

[B]

No, we had like the real encyclopedias that were down in a dusty shelf in the basement. I would have loved to have a Britannica Kids. Are you kidding me?

[A]

We had, man. We had both. I was a real. I was a real Britannica kid growing up.

[B]

Britannica Bray. That's what they used to call you.

[A]

Maybe not.

[B]

Little Britney.

[A]

Little Brittany, that's what. Little Britney's down with the books again.

[B]

Oh, little Britney carrying his books back to school. Alton was built on the native land of the Cahokia tribe who told stories of thunderbirds in their folklore. And in addition to the Payasa Thunderbird, petroglyphs can be found all throughout southern southern Illinois, Wisconsin, Missouri and Minnesota. So all of these cultures and I. I put a bunch of links. You can see there's like all these caves There's Washington State park in Missouri. There are. Let me see. Here's another one.

[A]

There's Cool.

[B]

They're awesome. The Jeffers petroglyphs in Minnesota. And typically what you'll see in the Thunderbird petroglyphs is it's, it's the squarish looking bird where the wings are kind of out to the side.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With straight lines down and sort of a triangular tail. And there's a difference between, I think Bob Gimlin. Not the same Bigfoot Bob Gimlin, but another 40 in Guy Bob Gimlin, who you can watch videos on YouTube. He talks about how some. There was a couple thunderbird sightings. I'm gonna. I didn't include them here, but can't remember where they were. But basically a couple was looking out their window and saw two giant, giant ass birds land on the tips of their pine trees. And they were like bending the pine trees over.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

And they had to hold their wings out to help keep them balanced.

[A]

Great.

[B]

And you'll see certain cranes and herons do that when they land on things. And he pointed Giblin. Gimlin points out that like, interestingly enough, in all the petroglyphs, most of the petroglyphs of the thunderbirds, their wings are out just like how they're seen sometimes people have seen them.

[A]

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

[B]

And different than eagle petroglyphs where eagles tend to have their wings tucked at them.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool.

[B]

So I don't know. You know what I mean? Are they, are they. Are these petroglyphs, you know, recording something that the naked eye is seeing in. In nature?

[A]

Right. It's an interesting detail. Yeah, totally.

[B]

So perhaps with the people of Alton were witnessing was a species of bird long thought extinct. If the past was returning to Illinois, 1949 wouldn't be the last time thunderbirds would be seen. Because they come back 30 years later, just like we're about to come back after this break.

[D]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor State Farm is there prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[B]

This precedence day upgrade the look of your home without breaking your budget. Save up to 50% site wide on new window treatments. @blinds.com blinds.com makes it easy with free.

[D]

Virtual consultations on your schedule and samples.

[B]

Delivered to your door fast and free. With over 25 million windows covered and a 100% satisfaction guarantee, you can count on blinds.com to deliver results you'll love. Shop up to 50% off site wide plus a free professional measure during the President's Day mega sale happening right [e-mail] terms apply. On July 24, 1977. The Low Low Excuse me. Family of Lawndale, Illinois were enjoying a nice summer evening. It was around 8:10pm and Ruth Lowe was cleaning up what she called an al fresco dinner.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

I don't know. Google al fresco dinner 1970s.

[A]

Well, doesn't say al fresco just mean like you're eating outside.

[B]

Yeah, I think they were just eating but like al fresco dinner.

[A]

Al fresco dinner is half a bottle of wine in a glass and some crackers eating outdoors.

[B]

Patios, rooftops, sidewalk cafes. So I guess they were just sitting out, out back sitting outside eating dinner. She's cleaning up. She's cleaning, clearing the dishes and the kids are out back playing in the backyard.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So she suddenly heard the screams of her 10 year old son Marlin, who was playing outside with another boy. It's. I'm unsure if it's a son or a relative or a neighbor or. Ruth runs outside to see a giant bird sinking its talons into the collar of her son, dragging him off the ground and carrying him 35ft.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Ruth later described the yeah. The kid said it just came out of nowhere and grabbed him and the other. He just started screaming.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it wasn't strong enough to lift him off the air out up into the air. But it was dragging him with his like the toes of his little tennis shoes dragging across the lawn trying to get. Trying to pick him up. He's a 10 year old kid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ruth said it had a white ring around its half foot long neck. The rest of the body was very black. The bird's bill was 6 inches in length and hooked at the end. The claws on the feet were arranged with three front one in the back. Each wing less than the body was four feet at the very least. The entire length of the bird's body from beak to tail feather was approximately 4 1/2ft. Ruth. Yeah, big birds. This is a big ass bird.

[A]

But that's like a re. That's like a. That could exist.

[B]

That's a. Realistically yes. But we as we're going to get into. We don't Have a lot of examples of birds with like a nine foot wingspan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's a big bird. Yeah.

[B]

Ruth ran to her son's rescue, attacking the bird, who ultimately gave up and flew back into the sky where a second bird had been circling the entire incident.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

The terrified family watched in disbelief as the giant birds flew away. The press, once they got a hold of this story, called the bird king vulture for its resemblance to a toad, Turkey vulture, which were common in the area. Now, turkey vulture has a wingspan of five to six feet. And as noted, this creatures was around nine. Turkey vultures also do not have a white ring around their necks. They're like all black, basically. They're all black. Now, a few days later, Riley, I really want you to get ready for this, okay? Because, you know, every now and then in our journeys, we meet a man, we come across a man, and we're about to meet another man.

[A]

Okay? Okay. I can't wait.

[B]

A few days later, a man by the name of John Chief A.J. huffer, a photographer for the local CBS station, filmed what he claimed to be two thunderbirds flying from his canoe at Lake Shelbyville, Illinois. He had been commissioned by the local news to go try to film one of these king vultures. So we've included a YouTube video. Let's cue it up. We do want to hear the sound because we get to hear the sound of. Of A.J. chief A.J.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

So we're gonna get past.

[A]

I'm past the ad.

[B]

Okay, there we go. Let's pause it so we can let everyone queue up. Okay, so I've included a link in the show notes. Or you can watch this. Hopefully if we can rip this, it's.

[A]

Probably going to be in the YouTube.

[B]

Yeah, it'll be in the YouTube version of the show. Okay, so when you're ready, count us in and we'll hit play. This is living giant Thunderbirds flying John Huffer on YouTube.

[A]

Okay, here we go. Three, two, one, play.

[C]

Month of July 1977, many reports of giant living Thunderbirds were pouring into newspaper offices and TV stations across Central Illinois. I, Chief A.J. of the Central Tribal Native American Council, was called upon by CBS Television to try to film a living Thunderbird. I had been trained by the United States Marine Corps to be a combat photographer. CBS had called on me many times in the past to film major fires. I had produced good films for cbs, delivering to them network quality results. I studied a map of central Illinois where the Thunderbird sightings had been happening and decided to cruise by canoe the remote shoreline of Lake Shelbyville. I had my 16 millimeter news camera loaded with 100ft of professional Ektachrome film.

[A]

Hell yeah.

[C]

You are now seeing the original footage of living flying Thunderbirds straight out of Native American Legends. This footage has been studied by several universities since July 1977. And the following television show is one of the interesting results. Let it fly.

[A]

Yes. Oh, he's got a website. Chiefaj.com.

[B]

Chiefaj.Com. Unfortunately, Chief AJ is no longer with us.

[A]

Oh, man, that was straight out of Twin Peaks.

[B]

100%. And an apropos observation because I am not one, nor is it my place to question anyone's origins. But I will say, when you see Chief A.J. it does raise a few eyebrows because he's leaning in hard into the costume of his proposed purported culture.

[A]

Chief aj.com is a dead link. Now if.

[B]

Well go to. There's another link in here called Amazon.com Exploits of Chief AJ by Chuck Vaughn. And you're gonna get a picture of Chief A.J. there's also another wonderful video of him showing you how a slingshot that he made.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Wow, he's really committing to the bit.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yes. Oh my God.

[B]

So here's a little backstory. We're gonna tangent for a minute. Okay, here's a little Backstory on Chief A.J. according to the author, John Chief A.J. huffer comes from a small town in Illinois. But throughout his lifetime, he's become known worldwide for his marksmanship accomplishments. In the exploits of Chief A.J. author Chuck Vaughn looks into the life of Chief A.J. a Native American, Christian U.S. marine and former bodybuilder who worked out with Jack Lahan.

[A]

Yeah, he did.

[B]

In 1987, Chief A.J. broke his first world record by throwing and shooting 40,060 wood blocks during eight days through pain and weather without a miss.

[A]

What?

[B]

He went on to break records with air rifles, longbows, and 200 pound English Warbow and slingshots. Throughout his life, he stayed busy participating in different types of exhibition shootings. Chief A.J. set up rifle camps and trained instructors to teach others to shoot the Chief A.J. way. He always maintained his fitness and won fitness contests into his 70s. He's been to Hollywood and featured on shows like Discovery Channel's Top Shot and National Geographics. The Unbeatables. The Exploits of Chief AJ Shares the story of this storyteller with a booming voice, now in his 80s, who found the success of the of in the world of marksmanship and shooting.

[A]

What a life.

[B]

And he did pass in 2022. And in his. In his obituary it says Chief was A scrawny kid, he wanted to start weight training at an early age. His parents made him learn all the muscles before they allowed him to get a dumb bar set. He went on to compete. Mr. And I also have a seeking suspicion that Chief A.J. wrote his own obituary. He went on to compete in Mr. America twice in his life in numerous bodybuilding competitions. He represented Tusk Tuscala in the supernational physique classic in 2001, where he won first place, master 55 and over. Chief had an epiphany and was set on shooting a world record over an eight day period. In March 1987, he shot a world record of. Now this is a different number. This is 14,060 wood blocks.

[A]

Maybe it was a typo. We're gonna, we're gonna give him a typo. That's still a lot.

[B]

That's a lot of wood blocks without a miss. This landed him on the COVID of Guns magazine and launched his journey of fame in the gun world. He later developed the Chief AJ Slingbow, which has been sold all over the world. His dear friend Tony Reeves now runs his Sling Bow empire. Chief appeared on reality TV shows Top Shot, man vs Machine, Monster Hunters, and History's Mystery. He personally got to know Roy Rogers and had a big cowboy Indian gun exchange in Las Vegas. And we don't have to watch it right now, but do take a little peek. This man in action in this other video called Chief AJ's Slingbow. Because you'll see Chief AJ in his backyard being filmed by his sweet wife in full costume.

[A]

Chief, don't point that at the camera.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Oh, boy. You trust me?

[B]

Yeah, he's pointing at us. Hopefully that's a mounted camera.

[A]

I don't think it is.

[B]

He's basically combined a slingshot and a bow and a bow and arrow into one deadly weapon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he shoots pewter balls that he calls balls of death.

[A]

Of course he does.

[B]

To kill squirrels, man.

[A]

Imagine if this guy was your grandpa.

[B]

He's kind of my dad, I'll be honest. Like, he's a few. He's a few musical notes away from being my dad. I could see my dad being a little bit with a slightly different upbringing. My dad might have become this guy.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, he puts on the headdress for the interview portion of this video.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Do you think that he gave himself the name Chief or do you think that came from his time in the Marines?

[B]

This is. No, I think he claims to be a tribal chief.

[A]

Oh, he's actually a chief.

[B]

He. His Parents were allegedly, I say alleged. This is not, again, not fair for me to question a man's origin story. Sure, but, but I think his father was Cherokee and his mother was from a different Indian nation, and then he was adopted. So I, I don't know. Again, it raises a few eyebrows. I would love to learn more about Chief aj.

[A]

Yes, I mean, he does to the adopted part. That's where I'm. I'll hold my commentary, you know.

[B]

Yeah, I think we have to hold our commentary. It's not our place. Not our place. But you know what?

[A]

Watch the video. He's a lovable guy.

[B]

He's a lovable guy who is a. Who has interesting ways to kill things.

[A]

There we go. I would say that's an apt description. Yes, yes, yes. You know, he, he found, he, he found his special interest and he, he committed to it. Yeah, he committed to the pit.

[B]

Yes. Okay, so back to the Thunderbirds.

[A]

That was a great detour. Excellent detour.

[B]

So this video is interesting. I mean, these birds are definitely enormous birds out in, out at the lake, Lake Shelby. They're interesting and they have been studied by ornithologists and I know, like on Monster Quest, they reviewed this and the experts they had were like, these are definitely large turkey vultures. And then another guy was like, I don't know, this could be. Let's see. I think the. One of the other guys said it might be an Andean condor. So after The Hullabaloo in 1977, in 1978 in Danville, Illinois, a 17 year old named John Walker was hunting doves when he too saw a giant screeching blackbird with large square wings. Basically they were boxier than normal bird wings. He reported that the body was about five or six feet in length. Now the boxy thing is interesting because again, the thunderbird pteroglyphs are always very boxy looking. The birds are quite boxy. So a few candidates for these birds could include the aforementioned turkey vulture, the Andean condor. The Indian condor has a wingspan of ten and a half feet.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But both of these are carrion birds. They're not birds of prey. And their talents aren't created for lifting up prey like the boy who was attacked in Lawndale.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They could have been adolescent California condors, which are all black. But that being said, Mrs. Lowe insisted that the bird that attacked the. Her son, Marlin Matt, she met, she said it matched the description of an Indian condor because it had the white thing around its neck.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

But Chief AJ's birds that were Filmed here were all black.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So were these different birds than the two that attacked Marlin Lowe?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Great. So a more fringe theory might be that thunderbirds are a rel. Are a relic bird species, that they might be Teratorians, which were huge birds that existed in North America as recently as 8,000 years ago. And this could definitely explain the existence of thunderbirds in Native American folklore. In the essence, that they could be ancestral memories of a now extinct animal.

[A]

That makes tons of sense.

[B]

As someone pointed out, it may have been Bob Gimlin. Like, once tigers are gone, we're still going to talk about tigers for generations and generations to come. Especially if we have. Did I make you sad about tigers being gone?

[A]

Yeah, you made me sad about that.

[B]

But it makes sense. That didn't make people to be sad about tigers, but it makes sense that maybe thunderbirds were these territories, thorns, and they've been passed down in oral story, oral, you know, mythology.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[B]

So this theory is also a theory that's supported by our friend Lauren Coleman, a man who we've never met, but Lauren Coleman is cryptozoologist and he writes about this idea in Cryptozoology from A to Z. So just kind of want to read you what he has to say about this.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This is from his book. The most likely zoological candidates for thunderbirds may be supposedly recently extinct territory. Alan Feducha in the age of Birds, 1986, writes, Perhaps the most remarkable of the Ice Age volturine birds found in the New World were the Teratorians. The very common Teratoris mariami had a wingspan of 11-12ft and Territoris incredibilious, known from the Pliocene deposits in Nevada and California, had a wingspan that may have approached 17ft. But the real giant was the Argentine fossil, nearly twice the size of Teratona's Miami, which stood 5ft tall and had a wingspan of about 24ft. It is the largest flying bird ever known to science.

[A]

Giants. Wow.

[B]

So this might explain why some of these giant ass birds, some of the giant ass birds they've seen off the Alaskan coast. And maybe these birds that were once prominent in, you know, central North America or Central America. Not Central America, but like the US Central US Maybe some of them are still hanging around. Could it be possible?

[A]

Especially like back then.

[B]

Yeah. And Coleman. Well, certainly when they, Cohen, coexisted when. When Native American people were right, you know, recording these things.

[A]

Sure, yeah, that's clear. Yeah.

[B]

In oral tradition for sure. But are they. Could there still be Some out there, basically like relic.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

I don't know. But also the other thing, in terms of, like the Indian condors, I think some of these could be folded in there. And Coleman points out that because a lot of these stories take place in spring and summer, it may match migratory patterns with some of these birds. You know, they, a lot of these birds don't, they, they don't necessarily migrate from South America all the way up north, but with climate change and all this stuff, maybe they are, you know, or maybe there were pet birds that escaped or they were trafficked from, you know, one area to another, brought back to the US and then let go. We know again from Tiger King that people have exotic pets and exotic animals off the black market and they escape.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

So who knows? Let's take a break. When we come back, we're going to dig into the final little bit of the Thunderbird Mystery.

[A]

Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster, Zero Ultra, that's the OG it kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing. But Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise, and Vice Guava. And they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the white can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single one is Zero Sugar. Tap the banner to learn more.

[B]

We heard you. Nine years of bring back the snack wrap and you've won. But maybe you should have asked for more.

[A]

Say hello to the Hot Honey Snack wrap.

[B]

Now you really want. Go to McDonald's and get it while you can. So back at the beginning of this segment during the Tombstone Thunderbird stuff, I teased that there's a mystery within a mystery of the Thunderbird lore. And that is a supposed photograph of a giant thunderbird that had been killed by a bunch of old timey Westerns dudes. And this is considered the lost Thunderbird photo. And I'm gonna throw up an image here. This is a recreation of what artist Andrew Minier claims that he saw in a book when he was a kid and is described by other people who have claimed to have seen this photo, which now seems to have vanished from existence. Okay, okay. So over the years, multiple people from Ivan T. Sanderson, cryptozoologist, and John Keel claim to have seen or have held or even owned a photograph that shows an enormous bird nailed to the wall of a barn under which six, five or six men in Western wear stand, arms outstretched, lined up fingertip to fingertip to show how huge the bird was. Some say that this is the photo of the Tombstone Thunderbird from the Tombstone Epitaph. However, no photo ever ran in the paper. And let's be honest, it doesn't sound or look based on the illustration much at all like a dragon or a dinosaur. This looks like a big ass.

[A]

Like a big hawk. Yeah.

[B]

So some people say this is a. This was a photo of a different Thunderbird entirely. Freudian researcher and author Kevin J. Gull has a great piece about the history of this photograph online, an article which I will link to. In his piece, he shares a drawing by artist Andrew Minier, who redrew the photo from memory, claiming he'd seen it in a book when he was a kid. Riley, playing a lot of roles today. Can you read this? You're a sensitive artist. Can you please read the role of Andrew Minier?

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Okay. Andrew Minear, the sensitive artist recalling his youth. I was perhaps four or five years old when I saw the picture. The photo I remember seeing and approximating in my sketch came from a dinosaur book in my elementary school library around 1990 91. I remember that the photograph clearly showed an eagle or otherwise recognizable bird of prey and not a petrodaction as is commonly shown in reproductions of the original photograph. I also clearly remember a line of five or six men dressed in western garb standing in front of the barn wall with their arms outstretched, fingertip to fingertip to demonstrate the measure of the wingspan. I'm confident that the bird was darker than the barn wall in the background. Whether the photo was black and white or sepia toned, I don't really recall recall. I used a sepia tone in my drawing because I've seen it commonly used in Old west photography. The original photo may have been black and white. I'm confident that the photograph I saw was an image of a gigantic eagle like raptor, definitely with a hooked beak and most likely with a feathered head and neck. I don't know for sure whether the head was facing left or right, but it was definitely in profile. My drawing is to the best of my knowledge and ability, which I will say, pretty good. The most accurate reproduction of the photo I remember seeing.

[B]

So what's your take on this?

[A]

I think that this is a memory that he has built and revisited over the years and I think it's so specific though. I know, but I think he saw something in a book in the library in the 90s and. And it tickled something in his little brain. And then he's since retrod that I'm not accusing him of being A liar.

[B]

No, no, no, no. Listen, this is not an uncommon theory, okay?

[A]

Memory is a deeply fallible thing, okay? Especially with all the focus on, like, the sepia tone and the black and white and. I don't know, this just feels a little bit like that to me.

[B]

So, according to Gaul's research, the earliest mention of this missing Thunderbird photo can be traced back to a man. Not quite a man like Chief AJ But a man nonetheless.

[A]

There's a man like Chief AJ A.

[B]

Man named Hiram M. Cranmer. Cranmer was born in 1871 and grew up in Pennsylvania, working for the lumber industry. Growing up, he absorbed the local folklore and Native American stories and was a subject in folklorist Edward McEdward Leach's book, Two Penny Ballads and Four Dollars Whiskey A Pennsylvania Folklore Miscellaneous. I mean, if there's ever been a book that contains apple Tree, Applesauce's Family Tree, it's gotta be in Two Penny Ballads in a four dollar whiskey.

[A]

Man. That's that. What a. What a beautiful use of language.

[B]

Yeah. Leech calls Cranmer one of the last good informants in the old tradition of Pennsylvania. In other words, this old guy could spin a yarn or two, and, you know, he had a wealth of knowledge about all the folklore. So during the 1950s and 1960s, Cranmer was a frequent contributor to Fate magazine's Letters page. Now, Fate, which we've talked about before multiple times on the podcast, is arguably one of the biggest, if not most influential publications that shape the trajectory and the lore of high strangeness and UFOs and pop culture during the mid-20s, 20th century. Without fate, there's a lot of stuff we don't get. We don't get Men in Black. We don't get the Shaver Lake mysteries. So there's a lot of old school lore that comes from Fate magazine, right? In an. In a letter that he wrote to Fate, Cranmer says, I first saw such a bird in April 1922. I was standing at my gate at dusk when one flew over, heading north. It passed a pine tree with branches spreading 50ft. So I could estimate his wings spread fairly accurately. It was 35ft. I was alone at the time and never mentioned the incident for 35 years. That was in a September 1963 issue of Fate magazine. And Cranmer claimed he and another witness spotted another enormous bird in 1957, estimated by 1 man as having a winged spread of 25 to 30ft. I went outside and saw another. Another bird flying lazily 500ft above its wing motion reminded me of a blue heron, except the bird was lighter and grayer in color. So Gull in his article goes on to explain, and I just want to quote this straight from the article in the very same letter. Cranmer first mentioned the Thunderbird photo sometime around the year 1900. Two prospectors shot and carried into Tombstone, Arizona. Arizona on a burrow. One birds. This is Cranmer when nailed against the wall. The tombstone epitaph. Its wing spread measured 36ft. A picture showed six men with outstretched arms touching, standing under the bird. Later, a group of actors dressed as professors were photographed under the bird with one of them saying, shucks, there is no such bird. Never was and never will be. Cranmer later elaborated that he learned of this photograph or photographs from, quote, a lady in tombstones, and that picture was circulated in papers all over the United States. So this description matches the description of the photo that Andrew Minier claims that he saw as a boy in the 1990s.

[A]

I would posit that maybe he saw a reproduction of this story as a child in the 90s, remembered it as a photo. And here we are.

[B]

Fair enough. Now the first known. This is again goal is saying the first known reference to the photo was actually printed in May 1963 issue of Saga magazine in an article by Jack Pearl titled Monster Bird that Carries off human Beings. While the tale is credited only to a quote Pennsylvania resident, it is clearly the same account Cranmer included in his letter to Fate. Chorvinsky, speaking from his publishing experiences, including a stand of Fate magazine column as a fake columnist, surmise that Cranmer, like many other readers, probably sent the same letters about his pet topics out to several publications. Saga, being a larger newsstand magazine, might simply have gotten around to Cranmer's Thunderbird letter in the mail pile sooner than the smaller staffed Fate. So seems to be that the idea of a bird photo from Tombstone originated from this old timer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

However, in the early 1970s, Ivan T. Sanderson wrote into Pursuit magazine claiming he had once owned a copy of this photo, but he lent it to two associates who were heading to Pennsylvania on a Thunderbird expedition and never got it back. So how did it end up in a book that was possibly seen by Andrew Minier? I must admit, this photo felt very, very familiar to me when I. I was like, wait, I feel like I have a memory of this picture as well. Now, there is one photo that easily pops into mind when talking about Thunderbirds, and it's probably the first one you'll see when you Google Thunderbird, it's a silhouette cutout of the Territoran Argentavis at the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County. If you scroll down, you'll see it. Riley. Here it is up on the video.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now this is what a Teratorin looked like.

[A]

Like.

[B]

And in the photo, it's an old black and white photo of a museum curator standing next to a massive big black bird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh man.

[A]

If I could have one familiar from extinction history, it would 100% be this bird. This thing is bad ass.

[B]

It's like the giant eagles from Lord of the Rings.

[A]

Yeah, but like, but like a goth raven.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Oh, that's so cool.

[B]

So does the fabled Thunderbird photo actually exist? Or is it a collective false memory developed over the past century of lore? And what about the Thunderbird itself? Does it exist? Or is it a collective shared ancestral memory of a long extinct giant bird of prey? I ask you, dear listeners, the same question I now pose to my colleagues. What the hell was that?

[A]

Wow. I mean, that was a great primer on the Thunderbird. This is probably the best. The best Thunderbird deep dive at least I've ever experienced.

[B]

Thanks, buddy. Yeah, I love Thunderbirds now, so.

[A]

I do too. They're so cool.

[B]

They're so cool.

[A]

I mean, I think it's pretty clear what you laid out. This. This was a real creature that lived and died some thousands of years ago. So it's embedded in our collective memory and passed down through ancestry and stories and oral tradition. There probably were some holdovers that kind of overlapped a little bit as the last ones disappeared. And then, you know, because it's in memory, it got sort of merged with condors and things like that. And yeah, it's like it's. It's a part of our. It's a part of the history of this planet and our experience with, you know, the natural creatures and then our own wild imaginations as they reinterpret it over the years. I don't think that photo exists. I really don't.

[B]

I think, yeah, I don't.

[A]

I think it was a story and then it was probably a drawing.

[B]

Well, you, you, you might also. This will probably tip it into. There were around the turn of the century when photography became more common. I'm going to put a. There's a link here that I will just put to you in the chat. It's also on the Google Doc, but I just want to make sure you have the right one and you can scroll down now. I'm going to include all these links just so if people. Because there's a lot to unpack here. Because I guess also like nailing owls and eagles to barn doors was like a practice back in the day to like kill the predators of their chickens and to scare off other things. But if you scroll a message to you. But if you scroll down, there was like, there was a period around the turn of the century when photography was a big thing. There was a sub genre of tall tale postcards where people would post photos of large pumpkins or apples or fish or birds and make composites of them and, and they were kind of like jokey postcards.

[A]

Yeah, it's like early Photoshop.

[B]

Yeah, early Photoshop. So it's possible that that photo that everyone's talking about is an example of.

[A]

A tall tale postcard that also completely makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. And that a kid in elementary school would not understand. Scroll up, you'll see A photo of H.M. cranmer, who I do think maybe be may might be the great, great, great grandpappy of the Applesauce crew.

[A]

I think he is the, he, he is the, the patriarch of the whole thing. Yeah. Wow. There's some amazing photos in this link.

[B]

Yeah. This guy, this, this researcher, Kevin J. Gall. It's pretty, pretty rad stuff. So, yeah, I'll put these links. Everybody check that out.

[A]

This photo of the golden eagle on this is like truly beautiful.

[B]

Yeah, really beautiful.

[A]

Also, these, these tall tale postcards are fantastic. I love them.

[B]

Yep, they're great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, so Thunderbirds, everybody. I don't know. I think we definitely have a logical explanation from where they come from in culture. I definitely think they're inspired by the territory. Is it possible in this wild world that maybe there's relic bird species that are giant flying around? Maybe. I will say that, like, even as an Indian, even with the Indian condor being the thing that would carry off the kid, it still doesn't quite fit the bill. Not a bird of prey.

[A]

No pun intended.

[B]

Yeah. Why is it, what's it doing in Illinois? I don't know. So there is definitely. There's a lot of questions and mysteries around this, but I, I, and I. Then I also think that like the Tombstone story, the San Diego Weekly Union story about the dragon, maybe yellow journalism, maybe some tall tales, maybe a genuine case of high strangeness that then got folded into the Thunderbird mythology. But to me, they feel like separate things. You know, to me, the Thunderbirds are the Territorns and the, the flying dragon stuff is some snallygaster silliness. Or some genuine high strangeness that is more aligned with some of the flying humanoid stories that we've seen that just really defy all explanation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah, that's a perfect takeaway because it's.

[B]

Like two cowboys and a little boy. Those are our eyewitnesses.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

How reliable are we? You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. Come on.

[B]

They're having fun. And I love that the kid was like, I saw Satan.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Just trying to get his dad, his old timey judges, father's love and attention, you know? I saw Satan, daddy. All right, well, that wraps up our deep dive on Thunderbirds. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed researching it. Riley, great. Great job. Let's get you an agent. Let's book you some co star roles at least.

[A]

Come on, guys.

[B]

Anything for collector's corner that you want to plug. Anything you're watching, reading, consuming, creating.

[A]

I watched this week. It's actually kind of funny. I watched the movie Honey don't. Oh, yeah, it's a Coen brother movie.

[B]

It's a sequel to. That's a part of a trilogy with the same character.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[B]

Yeah, let me look up, but go on. I'm gonna tell you as you're talking.

[A]

The funny thing is that I watched it while I was waiting for my car to be serviced at the Subaru. That's right, Jazz. I drive a Subaru and have four years at the Subaru dealership. And I was just sitting there watching saying, there's a lot of sex in this movie that I was not expecting. So I kept having to jump forward and not be the creep in the Subaru dealership. Just sort of watching porn. But it was. I really liked it. It was great. It was like a classic noir detective story, but sort of turned on its head. The characters are great. The writing was snappy. It was just like. It was great. I really enjoyed it. It was a good movie.

[B]

So Ethan Cohen was married to Trisha Cook, and they started this. This trilogy. They got a divorce. She's now a lesbian. Or openly, you know, became. Came out as a lesbian. But they still work. They work.

[A]

Is she the. Is she the lead in the. Who is Trisha Cook?

[B]

She's the writer of the first movie, Drive Away Dolls. Co writer with him. And then I think she may have directed. Did she direct Honey Don't?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Let me see.

[A]

I was watching the car dealership.

[B]

She. Let's see. Honey Don't. No, Honey, don't. Distracted by Ethan Cohen. But it's also co written by Trisha Cook, so it's like their post divorce collab. But it's. So maybe if you liked Honey don't. You should watch Driveway Dolls and maybe you should also.

[A]

I'm glad I brought it up. I. I love a. A sort of modern take on the private eye. Noir. It's one of my favorite genres.

[B]

I think it's called like the. It's nickname like the lesbian noir trilogy or something.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But I love Margaret Qualley. She's great. I love.

[A]

Really good in it. Yeah. And Aubrey Plaza is great in it too. It's. It's very.

[B]

Pedro Pascal is in the first one.

[A]

Oh my.

[B]

Yeah, Driveway Dolls. Check it out. I also, I gotta say, after being a little lukewarm on Marvel stuff, like most people, Wonder man, the Wonder man series on Disney plus is so good. It is like nothing. I mean, you could just watch it as its own show detached from the Marvel universe and really appreciate it. It's very funny. Ben Kingsley is great in it. The lead actor is great in it. It's superbly written, it's superbly directed. It's a great satire on Hollywood and an actor struggle in Hollywood and then the sort of superhero stuff is very minimal. It's sort of peripheral. And I'm only four episodes into eight episodes, but man, I really, really enjoy it and it's worth watching. If you've never even seen a Marvel thing before, you don't have to. You can just appreciate it as its own thing.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Riley, I think you'd really, really like.

[A]

That sounds like something I would like.

[B]

Yeah, it's really funny. It's really good. And you know, some. If you've seen some of the other Marvel stuff, it might enhance it a little bit. There's like Iron man, who is Wonder.

[A]

Man, I've never heard of.

[B]

Wonder man is sort of a. A lesser known Avengers character. He is a super powered guy. His name is Simon Williams and in the comic books he's an actor. He's got sort of a convoluted origin and retconned origin, but he's. He's. He was on the avengers in the 80s and 90s and he's kind of gone back to the sidelines a little bit in the comic books, but so they've taken a character that you can have a little bit more flexibility with.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

But they're still being sort of true to the character's roots. He had his own solo series in the 90s which was more of a comedy superhero book. Kind of like she Hulk. And so they've sort of embraced that tone in this. But it's. It's great. It's surprisingly good. It's like, it's not Andor. It's a totally different tone from Andor, but it's one of those things where you're like, wow, this is a Marvel superhero show. It's the best show they've done, I think, by leaps and bounds. And you can appreciate it as its own TV show. You know, I think it's really, really good. So go watch Wonder man on Disney plus.

[A]

Good one. I like the idea of a, like, a working actor as a superhero.

[B]

It's.

[A]

But he still has to, like, go to, like, auditions and stuff.

[B]

Yeah. And it's a love letter to acting and the struggle of being a struggling artist in like a machine, which is. Which is also really good.

[A]

Relatable.

[B]

Yes. You should watch it, Riley. You'd really, really like it. It's very good. Good. It's very, very good.

[A]

All right. Maybe I can borrow someone's Disney subscription to check it out.

[B]

Let's talk off camera.

[A]

All right.

[B]

All righty. If you want more BCC or would like to listen ad free episodes and join BCC [e-mail] get three bonus episodes every month on BCC the Other side ad free episodes and monthly music releases from Riley on Cosmic Tracks. Find the link to that in our show notes and on our Instagram bio at Bigfoot Collectors Club. If we don't see over there, we will see you next Wednesday with an all new episode of BCC. Until then, good night.

[A]

And go get regress.

[B]

Oh, Mr. Marquette, let's explore some things together.

[A]

Oh, yes, I will show you my Thunderbird.

[B]

I'm sure he was historically a terrible human being, but you know what this version is. Hey, we're making a five minutes. Bigfoot Collectors Club is executive produced by Riley Bray and Michael McMillan and engineered and edited by Riley Bray. Our theme song is Come Alone by Suneaters courtesy of Lotus Pool Records. For ad free listening and bonus episodes every month, join BCC Clubhouse on bcc.supercast.com Want to see us watch video episodes and exclusive content on YouTube.com advocate collectors?