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- [00:00]
Daniel
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Tabitha
A podcast that brings modern Satanism to the masses. Today on Black Mass Appeal, we're leaning leftier than usual. Also, Tabitha is still descending from a very high holy day. And in the news, a Texas Satanic panic comes to a head. As usual, I have Daniel with me.
- [00:25]
Daniel
Hey, my name is Daniel. I'm an organizer for Satanic Bay Area and I'm a member of the Satanic Temple. And I thought this was our left behind kind episode. I'm very confused.
- [00:35]
Tabitha
Next time.
- [00:36]
Daniel
Speaking of which, how have we not streamed that with everybody yet?
- [00:39]
Tabitha
Let's do it.
- [00:40]
Daniel
Yeah, we're making it happen.
- [00:42]
Tabitha
Later on we're gonna have a friend of the show and friend of SBA Dina. But until then, you've got me. I'm Tabitha. I'm an administrator for Satanic Bay Area and I'm lucky because I don't have to be on any path because I'm already left handed.
- [00:56]
Daniel
You get you. You squeezed in by default the two sweetest words in the English language. Haha.
- [01:05]
Tabitha
This is a podcast for Satanists to discuss modern Satanism, its history, left leaning political activism, and how Satanism relates to current events in pop culture. We're for people who want to learn a little bit more about modern Satanism, whether you're a newbie or already involved in satanic groups. Speaking of satanic groups, have we been up to anything recently?
- [01:26]
Daniel
Well, I don't know, Sabatha, what do you recall about the last 48 hours of your life?
- [01:32]
Tabitha
Oh, my God.
- [01:35]
Daniel
Which God would that be?
- [01:38]
Tabitha
Dionysus.
- [01:40]
Daniel
Well, that was appropriate for the occasion because guess what? It was your birthday.
- [01:44]
Tabitha
It was my birthday. I just had a very significant birthday and I kind of pulled out all the stops on a big birthday party and it was really amazing.
- [01:55]
Daniel
And this was not. This was not an SBA event specifically, but since it was your birthday, an awful lot of our Bay Area Satanists were there and many more were there in spirit if they couldn't make it in the flesh.
- [02:09]
Tabitha
True.
- [02:10]
Daniel
How are you feeling now that it's all over?
- [02:13]
Tabitha
So tired.
- [02:16]
Daniel
Folks, you have no idea. Taba is putting in a deeply heroic effort making this show happen. Because you ever have a lot. You ever have one of those hangovers that like develops a personality of its own?
- [02:34]
Tabitha
And what's funny about it is that I'm not even like hungover from drinking too much. It's just from like a party.
- [02:44]
Daniel
It's the, it's the.
- [02:45]
Tabitha
It was heavy duty. I did a lot of dancing. I was up and around and, you know, I. The Stress leading up to it, like, I would say, probably the last month. Sorry, Daniel, I have been kind of a mess. So, you know, when the party finally happened, I had to kind of, you know, cut a rug, let loose, as it were.
- [03:04]
Daniel
But it was a great day, a great evening. Shout out to our great BMA alums who were there. Simone, Brigid, Lee. Who else? Lily. Lily was in from out of town for that. That was really nice to see them. Sadie. Oh, Sadie has not been on the show yet. That kept that, that didn't work out when we parenting episode. But if I keep listing names, I'm gonna forget somebody. So the point is, a lot of great Bay Area Satanists, a lot of BMA alums there, and of course, most importantly, a shout out to Tabitha, a really deeply wonderful human being whom we were all happy to celebrate for the evening.
- [03:44]
Tabitha
Yeah, it was so nice.
- [03:45]
Daniel
And speaking of people whom we like to celebrate, a.
- [03:50]
Tabitha
We, we got a review, don't we?
- [03:52]
Daniel
Absolutely we do.
- [03:55]
Tabitha
This review comes to us from Rob, and it says, at risk of sounding like a total fanboy, there isn't an aspect of this podcast that I wouldn't recommend. It's all great. Keep up the great work, folks. Rob, thank you.
- [04:11]
Daniel
I know I can probably think of one or two aspects of this podcast I wouldn't recommend, but obviously I'm not going to point them out. You know, they're, they're, they're just my little peeves, you know, everything, Everything we do is over again. Well, they're pet peeves, so I'm attached to them, you see?
- [04:31]
Tabitha
Just little guys.
- [04:32]
Daniel
Exactly. But, you know, everything we do is always a work in progress. There's always room to grow. There's always things where I'm like, oh, boy, I wish I had done that slightly differently. But if Rob hasn't noticed the peeves, I'm not gonna point them out. I'm just gonna let him keep on enjoying every aspect of this show.
- [04:49]
Tabitha
I think the peeves are probably very cute, and I'm mad that I haven't seen them.
- [04:54]
Daniel
What are you picturing A peeve?
- [04:56]
Tabitha
Like, Like a shih Tzu.
- [05:00]
Daniel
Oh, yeah, I can see that.
- [05:03]
Tabitha
I guess.
- [05:06]
Daniel
We'Re gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna have to ideate this a little bit later, actually.
- [05:10]
Tabitha
Okay.
- [05:11]
Daniel
I, I, I get the feeling like, a peeve is like an extremely minor demon, like, even smaller than an imp.
- [05:17]
Tabitha
Or maybe like, you know, those little, the little soot sprites from, like, Studio Ghibli movies. That could be, like, a peeve.
- [05:25]
Daniel
Yeah. I can see that they're a little.
- [05:29]
Tabitha
Like purple or green instead of black. So, you know, differentiate them between the soot sprites and the peeves.
- [05:35]
Daniel
Okay, this is important, but we've got a lot of more content we have to get to. So we're gonna table the peeves for now. We're gonna say thank you to Rob and we are gonna rush on to the Patreon backers.
- [05:47]
Tabitha
Yes.
- [05:48]
Daniel
Who like the soot sprites, help make all of this possible.
- [05:53]
Tabitha
That's true. And they are not a peeve whatsoever.
- [05:56]
Daniel
I'm not peeved with them at all.
- [05:58]
Tabitha
So today we have two Mass O Kiss or folks that are paying a dollar in or more to be part of our Patreon. We've got Henry and we have Future Deja Vu.
- [06:11]
Daniel
It's a. Henrik. Henrik Heinrich.
- [06:14]
Tabitha
Oh, well, this says Henry, so.
- [06:17]
Daniel
Oh, sorry, my mistake.
- [06:19]
Tabitha
Sorry, Heinrich. You're good.
- [06:23]
Daniel
I, I misspelled. I gave Henri the credit for your contribution instead. And we will amends will be made. But also shout out to future Deja Vu. I assume that I, I, that's first of all, just a great name. Second of all, kind of an inside joke about the way our Patreon works where, you know, people will upgrade to future tiers. People will have to leave the Patreon, but then so names will occur over and over again. If we hear future Future Deja Vu again, it will mean it came true. But thank you to both of them. Thank you to everybody on the Patreon, everyone who's ever been on the Patreon, thank you to all of our Patreon sponsors to come.
- [07:03]
Tabitha
Can I give a shout out actually, now that we're here, or did you want to do a reward update thing?
- [07:08]
Daniel
No, no, no, this is a great time for a shout out.
- [07:10]
Tabitha
Okay, so we got a shout out. I want to shout out my friend Lance for giving me the weirdest birthday gift. But it's also freaking amazing.
- [07:22]
Daniel
Oh yeah, where is that? I haven't seen it around the house.
- [07:24]
Tabitha
It's sitting next to me. It's, it's got like, some of the decorations are on top of it, which, by the way, I had a discount party store birthday, which meant like, I had science that said, you know, happy Millennium, happy retirement, congratulations, happy Passover. Anyway, I'm not going to get into all that, but Lance got me a. It's supposed to be a hot cider decanter. I don't know, just vessel. And it's this very funny looking devil with like kind of googly eyes and it has a little section underneath it so you can put like a tea light in it to keep your beverage warm. And it says like hot apple cider or something on it. It is so bizarre. And it is. I love it. I love it so much. Thank you everyone from Patreon and who listens and leaves reviews and stuff. We love you. Those are some great dudes. All right, so in the news today. Satanic Golden. Satanic in quotes. Golden statue beheaded in Texas. And this was written by Michelle D. Pina for for Yahoo. A statue by artist Shizia Zander at the University of Houston was beheaded amid amid Hurricane Beryl on the morning of July 15th. The 18 foot golden statue titled Witness was originally commissioned to celebrate women and justice, but faced criticism for its artistic features included braided horns and abstract branch like arms. Sikander holds the university accountable for failing to protect the artwork and urges them to release surveillance footage of the incident and display the damaged statue uncovered. This was a violent, hateful and misogynistic act. A university spokesperson also stated that they were honoring the artist's request to leave the sculpture as is without any repairs. In February, a Texas anti abortion group labeled the statue satanic and protested its presence, leading the university to cancel an opening celebration of of Zekander's work and a scheduled talk by the artist. Because they're a bunch of shitty ass, little whiny poo butt baby faces. Yeah, that last bit, the poop, the pooh butt baby faces was added by me.
- [10:31]
Daniel
But it's definitely part of the story.
- [10:34]
Tabitha
Yes.
- [10:36]
Daniel
Universities of America. You have to stop doing this. This is horseshit. And I know you're gonna come down. Well, first of all, you're not gonna respond to what I say, but you're gonna come down out. You know, you to come down out of your Ivy IV covered tower. I know U of H is not an Ivy League university. Shut up. You're going to say. Well, Daniel, that's easy for you to say. You don't have to safe worry about safeguarding the safety of our students and staff. Well, you're not making them any safer when you keep encouraging this sort of thing. Look what has happened.
- [11:07]
Tabitha
Now.
- [11:07]
Daniel
I'm not saying this is all their fault, but certainly I feel like the atmosphere that they foster plays a hand in this. And you know, appeasement does not work for stochastic terror. The appeasement doesn't work for stochastic terrorism. It's just a fact. Tabitha, have you seen the statue?
- [11:24]
Tabitha
I'm actually looking at it right now. It's beautiful. Oh, and here's people protesting, saying, remove the offensive abortion statue. Yay.
- [11:34]
Daniel
What is it about it you think makes it abortion specific in their eyes? I don't see it myself.
- [11:40]
Tabitha
It's obviously. Well, it's, it's coded female.
- [11:45]
Daniel
Oh, that's all it takes, right?
- [11:47]
Tabitha
Yeah.
- [11:48]
Daniel
Well, this brings me to point number two. We get a lot. And by we, I mean, you know, reasonably well educated, liberal minded American people. We get lectured a lot. You get told, don't assume that people who disagree with you are stupid. As much as that's good advice. Sometimes you can come out and say it, these people are stupid, okay? They're, they're profoundly unsavvy, they're ignorant, they're rubes. And you're not. And you should not have to cater to them. And you shouldn't have to pretend like you don't notice that only a fool would have this reaction to this piece. I don't actually like the statue myself all that much. It's just not my style. I've got some criticisms of it, but that's not the point. And, and you know, the real irony is now, I would call it a satanic work now that it has been the victim of persecution in this way and that the artist has issued this resolve, but also this profoundly righteous anger that to me is a deeply satanic statement. So I don't think that is what she originally intended, but now they have gone ahead and added that extra level of authenticity to it. So great job, morons.
- [12:53]
Tabitha
I hope that someday there's enough of an outcry from the students or community to have it fixed or, you know, something else. But I think that it is really important to leave it as it is, to show that, like, you know, like, okay, it's, it hasn't gone anywhere. You know, I think it still says a lot how it is, if that makes sense.
- [13:23]
Daniel
I'll also court trouble by saying, wow, what do you know? There's a. There's a right wing group that hates this statue. And a couple weeks later, the statue ends up vandalized. I wonder who behind this. Of course, legally, for liability purposes, I can't say that they definitely did it because I don't know that. And presumably they have lawyers and I could be sued. But it's kind of like, remember the Georgia guidestones?
- [13:48]
Tabitha
Yeah.
- [13:49]
Daniel
Which was a weird thing. It's kind of this bizarre, mysterious roadside attraction. I know there's some controversy about who was behind it. Was it a white supremacist thing? I don't know, but a lot of people thought it was a Satanist thing, including conspiracy Mark Dice. And for years, conspiracy Mark Dice said, I'm going to blow up the Georgia. Georgia Guidestones. And sure enough, sometime last year, someone, possibly Mark Dice, blew up the Georgia Guidestones. Again, legally, I cannot say Mark Dice definitely blew up the Georgia Guidestones. And the FBI should arrest Mark Dice for blowing up the Georgia Guidestones because I don't know that for sure. And again, that could be a potentially slanderous, defaming statement, even though I don't think it's all that defamatory to say Mark Dice blew up the Georgia Guidestones when for over a decade, a Mark Dice was promising to blow up the Georgia Guidestones. So, but, you know, possibly Mark Dice's lawyer disagrees. So if Mark Dice or his lawyer are listening, Mark Dice blew up the Georgia Guidestones for sure is what a person might say. But who knows what I think? Hypothetically.
- [14:52]
Tabitha
So this is before the statue went up. This is from a place called TFP Student Action, which is tradition, family and property.
- [15:01]
Daniel
Oh, those are the folks who threw holy water at me at Christmas in the park one year.
- [15:05]
Tabitha
Well, guess what?
- [15:06]
Daniel
Probably not these. Probably not these specific people, but right these.
- [15:13]
Tabitha
So these are the same. So here's what they say about what the statue is. It's exporting New York liberalism. It says the same statue of a naked woman with demonic goat horns made headlines when it was first installed in Madison Square park in 2023. New Yorkers were appalled by a similar sculpture by the same author which was displayed atop the New York City courthouse pro abortion statue. The symbolism of witness is immoral and blasphemous. Around the neck of the statue is a lace judicial collar in memory of the pro abortion Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. The luminous figure is a nod to Ruth Bader Ginsburg. With Ginsburg's death and the reversal of Roe v. Wade, there was a setback to women's constitutional progress. It's exactly what the artist said, she says. It says Zikander, who wants her statue to advance the culture of death rights. The recent focus on reproductive rights in the United States after the Supreme Court overturned the landmark 1973 decision, decision comes to the forefront. She also praises abortion advocates who are, quote, collectively fighting for their right to own their own bodies over generations. Do I get the feeling that abortion advocates, they. They might just mean, like women and.
- [16:43]
Daniel
People with uteruses or anybody who values, you know, the, The. The rights of every individual to make these decisions with their Doctor or just, you know, scientifically and philosophically literate people who recognize that these bizarre arguments about fetal personhood don't make sense and are based in weird cult think so.
- [17:06]
Tabitha
It's the satanic imagery. The monstrous 18 foot tall statue is a dull go gold naked female figure with tentacles for arms and feet. Curled ram's horn crown the statues androgynous head which gives the statue a satanic appearance. A transparent hoop skirt with psychedelic swirls suspend the torso making it appear to float above ground.
- [17:35]
Daniel
You know what? You know, now obviously I like the statue considerably more. Before I was saying it's not really my taste, but you know, they're bringing me around on it.
- [17:46]
Tabitha
Exactly. Same here. And I mean it just goes on like this, but I, I just really like the, this explanation of what it looks like and like it's a naked female but also androgynous.
- [18:02]
Daniel
Oh my God. Oh my gosh. A nude figure in. In. In art. Whoever heard of such a thing? Do you mean to tell me women are naked under their clothes?
- [18:17]
Dina
No.
- [18:18]
Tabitha
What? No way.
- [18:19]
Daniel
Let's put this business behind us and move on with the main topic.
- [18:23]
Tabitha
That sounds great. Two roads diverged in a yellow wood and long. I stood and looked down one as far as I could before deciding that was for dweebs. But what does it mean to favor the left hand path instead? And where does that phrase lead us as modern Satanists? With us today we have Dina. Hi Dina, how you been?
- [19:05]
Dina
Hi. How you guys doing? Pretty good. Let's see. I am co. Congregation head of TST NorCal and, and a minister. And I'm interested in the left hand path because. Well, I'm a Satanist.
- [19:19]
Daniel
And maybe more importantly than that, you've got. Well, you've got two things that we none of the rest of us do. One, adorable dogs.
- [19:27]
Dina
Yes.
- [19:28]
Daniel
And two credentials. Right.
- [19:31]
Dina
This is correct. Yes, I do. I have a degree in religious studies and a couple of years of graduate school where I. At Claremont, where I studied the influence of Zoroastrianism on Jewish apocalyptic thought. That was my main course of study.
- [19:52]
Daniel
So you've got the education we should probably have to be doing the show to begin with.
- [19:58]
Dina
I think. I think you do well. I think you do just fine.
- [20:02]
Daniel
So I guess we should break the ice before asking when were you first exposed to that term and what, if anything, is your own relationship to it? Dina, should we start with you?
- [20:13]
Dina
I kind of went through a progression from before I was in college from evangelical. Found that, well, as we all know, wanting to say the least and converted to Greek Orthodox. And then the more I learned, the less I could. I just didn't believe it anymore. And so but I wasn't quite ready to give up the idea of I guess magical thinking. And so I kind of went through several years of like witchcraft starting with Wicca to traditional witchcraft to looking into Luciferianism. And that was the time when 2014 when I discovered TST. So that's been a kind of a long journey. And I like, I've always liked the idea of, you know, not going along with everyone else. I never really fit in with everybody else. I'm sure nobody can relate but I think we all have that story. So even when I was in Christianity I was always digging into the deeper, darker kind of things. And so the left hand path just seemed to fit me pretty well.
- [21:24]
Tabitha
You know, I've been sitting here trying to think like what when did I first hear about. And I can't. I want to say that I probably heard it relatively early in my like career to being a weirdo but I don't think of. But I don't know if I took it seriously until we got to Satanism, if that makes sense. Like I'm sure I heard it when I was in my witch phase and etc but like I just don't remember it coming up.
- [21:57]
Daniel
Well, that essentially are witches on the left hand path. That depends on who you ask and how you define that term. Myself I do remember and I brought this up before my first exposure to real Satanism, not the pop culture stuff or the stuff of Satanic panic weirdo rhetoric was when I took a college course about modern witchcraft scares. And that involved a unit on the Satanic panic of the 80s and 90s and that involved some basic information about practices of real Satanism today. And that phrase was one of the ones that was introduced to try to give us the most basic primer overview of Satanic philosophy in the modern day. But again didn't really delve into it very deeply. As years go by and I came got to be a Satanist and got to know more Satanist and particularly was exposed to Satanist media on online. I began to associate the phrase left hand path as essentially kind of a meme. And I'll be honest, I have almost entirely negative associations with it. Not negative associations in the sense of conventional morality, the way that left hand path adherents tend to contrast themselves. I mean negative as in I find that people who use this phrase a lot are often self important but seem to have a shallow understanding of the topics in which they claim to be authorities. Now that is a broad statement and it will be challenged by some of the material that we are going to investigate on this show. But that is where I'm coming from. How about you? How about Tabitha, Dina? What is your relationship with this phrase, if any? Positive, negative, or is it not that simple?
- [23:48]
Dina
I would say it's not that simple. I think it's actually quite complex. Excuse me, but I understand what you're saying about a lot of the people that use the term and declare themselves on the left hand path are often quite pretentious and. Yeah, so I would agree with that statement.
- [24:10]
Tabitha
Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat where I definitely have experienced people who use that sort of phrasing and maybe they are like kind of spoiling it for everyone. But I don't have as much of a problem with it on a personal level. Like, it doesn't usually bother me.
- [24:29]
Daniel
Well, how would we even define this term? If somebody were to ask you, what would we say?
- [24:35]
Dina
I guess I would start to start at individualism. It's very individualistic, be it self deification or apotheosis or conflict, I guess with the law or social norms, that sort of thing.
- [24:51]
Tabitha
This doesn't sound so silly, but it's like the opposite. Right? It's. It, it's whatever if you think of like say what Christianity is supposed to be about. Right. It's. So this is just the opposite of that kind of magical thinking.
- [25:09]
Daniel
Oh, I see. That's very interesting. So we think of it as a materialistic as opposed to magical.
- [25:16]
Tabitha
Sure.
- [25:17]
Daniel
That's very fascinating. In light of some of the history we're going to explore in a second, I want to latch on to what Dina said about individualism. That's a word we use a lot when we discuss modern Satanism. In fact, if you were to line up 10 different Satanists with 10 different denominational affiliations, for lack of a better word, and ask them all to talk about Satanism, there's only a few things we would all have in common. That one word is probably universal or, you know, nine out of 10 Satanists say they are individualists. Tenth, one cannot be reached for comment. But at the risk of turning this into like a telescoping rabbit hole. So what do we mean by individualism? If people have heard me talk before or say, if you come to some of virtual events or if you were there at National Day of Prayer in Sacramento when Tabitha and I spoke there, I have been very loud about the fact that I think Individualism in America is a scam. I think it's a marketing word. And I think that to prove that you look at what happens when somebody is truly individualistic, society rejects them. A great example of that. Okay, this is going to sound very, very weird. Did anybody see the movie Alien Covenant? And I think 10 years ago that movie came out now.
- [26:26]
Tabitha
No, sorry, Daniel.
- [26:29]
Daniel
No, that is the correct answer. That is by. Well, I can't call it the worst Alien movie because that'll start arguments that I'm not interested in. But it's pretty terrible. It was less than 10 years. I think this is a 2017 flick anyway. Doesn't matter. There is a point. So the plot of that movie is that we got this spaceship full of colonists who are going out to inhabit a new world somewhere and then goes awry. And there are aliens. And for some reason Michael Fassbender plays two different robots. One of who might want to the other one. But the movie denies me that and does uninteresting things instead. Anyway, when this movie was being marketed, some right wing chuds took exception to the idea that there are some queer characters in the cast. They say, if this is a colonizing mission, why wouldn't you send just like breeding pairs of people along? Right, that makes sense. My counter argument to that would be, well, probably most of the people on the ship are straight and they'll enough for everybody else. Maybe they picked this guy because he's the best engineer and they really need the ship to get there. And they picked his husband because I can't remember what that guy's job on the ship is. But you know, nevertheless, you know, if they're, if they're, if they're contributing to the mission than they are contributing to the whole. Some people have an idea of society like we're a space colony. They should say what benefits society is like conventional marriage and male female bonding and conventional upbringing. Why? Because that increases our, you know, that increases our population. And that is allegedly a good thing in their opinion. A contra to that is would be to. So that would be the, the, the big picture group think attitude about it. The contrary to that is okay, but not everybody's happy that way. Some people are miserable that way. Some people instead want to be in queer relationships that may or may not be able to produce kids. Some people may not want kids even if they are able to produce that. And we should respect that because their happiness is best. That is an individualistic opinion that the individual happiness of those people outweighs the alleged contributions they could be making to society supposedly to. By living in a different way instead. And as Americans we're supposed to be individualists, but as you can tell, we're not because we hate those people. I mean those of us on this call don't hate these people, but society hates those people because they just, they, they just insist on being happy on their own. And that's the worst thing in the world. Apparently.
- [28:56]
Dina
Accurate.
- [28:57]
Daniel
Am I, am I right? Except maybe for the alien covenant thing. That was admittedly a weird cul de sac, but I got there in the end.
- [29:04]
Tabitha
I know you just wanted to admit that you watched that movie in front of all of our fans.
- [29:09]
Daniel
There's a new one coming out. So you know, maybe, maybe that'll get the bad taste out of my mouth. What does your, what does it, what does your mouth taste like after the face hugger? You know what? This is not, this is not the topic that we're discussing today. What is the topic we're discussing today? Individualism on the left hand path. Yes. So yeah, it is weird. We're in a weird. So for example, tap the contrast left hand path with Christianity. Christianity is supposed to be about selflessness and charity. And yet we do know that people do those things often for selfish reasons. They will buy into the, especially the convention of American evangelical Protestant Christianity for self centered reasons. Is that then become like left hand path Christianity? Is that even a thing?
- [29:54]
Dina
Wouldn't people who describe themselves as theistic Satanists, wouldn't that be left hand path Christianity?
- [30:05]
Tabitha
I guess so.
- [30:07]
Daniel
I, I think that depends on their particular. That's what old Anton Levey used to say. He could be called devil worship, inverse Christianity and therefore not Satanism. I think that makes a lot of assumptions about those people's beliefs though. Some of those people don't believe in God at all. Some of those people believe in lots of gods. Some of those people believe in like a gnostic demiurge. It gets weird.
- [30:25]
Dina
I mean it's individualistic. Right. So there's a million different flavors.
- [30:30]
Daniel
I suppose that's a good point. If your religion is preaching some kind of orthodox belief that everybody has to subscribe to, that does not sound individualistic. So could that religion possibly be a left hand path religion at that point or has it disqualified itself? Because we all know there are lots of religions that like that term but do insist that you do things a particular way. I'm not going to name names, but I will later.
- [30:57]
Dina
Yeah, I think that's kind of getting right up there to that line to where it's not necessarily a left hand path.
- [31:04]
Tabitha
Yeah, it sucks because it kind of depends. But I, to me it would be the right. Like if, if we're talking about Jesus and stuff really at all in any sort of positive way, it would be the right hand.
- [31:13]
Daniel
Maybe we can disambiguate this a little bit if we look at some of the history. Dina, do you want to take our.
- [31:20]
Dina
First reading from the left handed Their Sinister history? Elaine Costas, 1996 Anti left sentiment is prevalent in the Bible. In the book of Matthew, one can read of God's chosen one sitting on his right, while those who have been doomed for their sins sit on the left. In Ecclesiastes, a wise man's heart is at his right hand, but a fool's heart is at his left. And the often cited verse, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth sounds as if the left hand is untrustworthy. The Bible is not the only place where left handedness gets a bad rap. The word dexterous, which suggests skillfulness, comes from the Latin word for right. The Latin word for left, sinister, still retains a negative connotation today. The Romans saluted with their right hands and stepped first with their right foot when entering a building. Thus the left entered last and came to be associated with shady, covert actions. The French word gauche means left, but also clumsy and awkward, while the Spanish zerto can also mean malicious. Italian uses the same word for left, and defective. Germans the same word for left and awkward. Germans also use the term witterschinds for lefties, meaning against the journey of the sun. Some say that the religious worship of the sun caused the right hand to dominate, since the sun appears to move in a clockwise manner if one is facing south. Children in public and parochial schools were pressured to switch to the right by having their hands wrapped and by being publicly humiliated. It was not until after the 1900s that researchers began studying the effects of forced hand switching upon people, including difficulty with speech, stuttering and bedwetting.
- [33:04]
Tabitha
As a left handed person, I take very big offense to this.
- [33:10]
Daniel
Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's a huge revelation that we just dropped on the listeners there. All this time, Tabitha has been a secret lefty.
- [33:20]
Tabitha
I don't know if it's been that much of a secret, how much of a lefty I am.
- [33:24]
Daniel
We should be clear. Not left politically, although that too, but like a southpaw, right, like you're. Like you're moving the mouse on the left hand side right now.
- [33:34]
Tabitha
I really like that. The word left in German is Awkward. Like same.
- [33:44]
Daniel
Hash, hashtag relatable. Yes.
- [33:46]
Tabitha
Yeah. I also like this part about the. The sun appears to move in a clockwise manner if one is facing south. So like, if you're facing north, don't do it, buddy. Give me a break.
- [33:59]
Daniel
Now the thing that blew my mind about this, I did not know that etymology of the word sinister. Actually that was just amazing to me when putting this together. And so here's the deal. For at least six months now, I have been debating, you know, we could actually do an entire show about the weird prejudice against left handedness. It ties in to witchcraft beliefs and it ties into cultural paranoia and it ties into a lot of the discussions we've had about Ableism in the past. And you know, there's a lot there to work with. I've resisted it because I just can't imagine posting a file that's called the left handedness episode. It just doesn't sound part of the expression this in this context. Punchy enough. It's not that it wouldn't be a good topic. It would. I just don't think it sounds like it. So my solution honestly was the show we're doing right now instead here we get to smuggle that material in to a broader philosophical context. But this is not unrelated, as we'll see. That phrase left hand path is related to our cultural hang ups about literal left handedness. As weird as that sounds, I do.
- [35:15]
Tabitha
Find it very strange that like being left handed has been such a big deal for such a long time.
- [35:21]
Daniel
Tabloid. Do you want to take the next one?
- [35:23]
Tabitha
Oh yeah. Actually, right before that I just wanted to say, like my grandmother was forced to be right handed, which was very strange where she wrote with her right hand and everything. But she did a lot of basic tasks with her left. Like she would eat with her left hand but like would write with her right and everything. And it was always a, a bit of a struggle for her.
- [35:44]
Daniel
Oh wow. Did she realize when she was doing it?
- [35:49]
Tabitha
I don't. I mean she had spoken about it before that it was something that she had, you know, that she had been taught in school and been reprimanded heavily about. But I don't know if she was like really cognizant of it these in her later years, if that makes sense.
- [36:04]
Daniel
Sure. I was just picturing it. This is like a hands of Orlock situation where she might start doing something with her left hand without quite knowing she was doing it.
- [36:11]
Tabitha
From historical aspects of left handedness. Malinkovic et al. University of Belgrade 2019 during the Middle Ages, left handedness was considered sinful. Under the strong influence of the Catholic Church, left handedness was connected with the devil, weakness, femininity and unhealthiness and had to be forced to turn to the good right side. Left handed people were suspected of friendship with the devil. The right arm was blessed while the left handed served the devil. Making a sign of the cross with the left hand was heresy. An analysis an analysis concerning handedness in the Bible found about a hundred positive references to right and the right arm and about 25 negative references to to the left and the left hand. A similar point of view can be found in the Quran. In both Islam and his. In Hinduism, the right hand is used exclusively during solemn ceremonies. In contrast, there are some minor religions like Tantric Buddhism for example, in which left handedness was considered positive and a symbol of wisdom. In the 18th and 19th centuries, the discrimination against left handed people was institutionalized. It included such practices as tying a child's left hand behind his chair or corporal punishment for anyone caught within writing with the left hand. During the Industrial Revolution, left handedness was particularly unfavorable as machines and tools were designed for the right handed people. In the 19th century, Cesar Lombroso, an Italian criminologist and physician, connected left handedness with crime. In the mid 20th century, Abram Blau, an American psychoanalyst and child psychiatrist, was still suggesting that left handedness was merely due to perversity and the result of emotional negativism within childhood. Blau claimed that left handed people became stubborn, rebellious, rigid and for some reason obsessed with cleanliness in adulthood. An influential British educational psychologist, Cyril Burt, supported blouse ideas describing left handed people as stubborn and willful as well as awkward and clumsy.
- [38:47]
Daniel
I don't know. Tabitha, what do you think? Did you indeed grow up to be stubborn, rebellious, rigid and obsessed with cleanliness?
- [38:56]
Tabitha
I wouldn't call myself rigid.
- [39:02]
Daniel
You, you are in fact quite ductile.
- [39:05]
Tabitha
Yes. I don't even know what that means, but I think.
- [39:10]
Daniel
Stubborn and willful, but also awkward and clumsy. That's the formula for a Disney princess these days. I think.
- [39:19]
Tabitha
Having left hand makes you a criminal. It's because everything's designed for right handed people. Makes you so pissed off that you go do a crime.
- [39:27]
Daniel
Dina, as somebody who is coming out of a a more a conventional religious background when you were younger, is this still a thing? Are people still superstitious about this in this day and age? Or have they managed it very least to move on from this to a degree? What's your experience?
- [39:48]
Dina
I think Well, I don't know if I can say because my experience I'm a right handed person so I would never have experienced anybody being strange about it. I think that it is somewhere in our collective consciousness and people still have strange, possibly still have strange ideas. I mean it's still in our language, that's for sure. I have not met anyone that thinks that left handed people are still of the devil, but I don't know if anybody would ever have told me that to begin with because I would have laughed at him. So I've not experienced that.
- [40:27]
Daniel
So here we're going to get into the actual term itself. This is from an essay called the Serpent Rises by Kenna Granol from 2012. QUOTE the Origin of Tantra lies in rural rural India. Probably most of our listeners recognize that term. That is a variation of Hinduism and also Buddhism, I'm told. Returning to Grandolm Quote the female deities or demons identified first as Caesars and later as Yaginis I think I pronounced that correctly were terrible and frightful entities. They needed to be calmed by the sacrifice of foods or they would feast on unborn babies and the vital energies of men. I'm going to pause a tab that can say same.
- [41:05]
Dina
Same, same.
- [41:08]
Daniel
A truly heroic individual could instead make an offering of a semen and be rewarded by receiving supernatural powers. I will say, miss speaking from that perspective, most straight men have made an offering of their semen at one point or another. It usually doesn't have that particular result, but I guess maybe some guys have a better approach than I do. Rites where human women represented and worked as manifestations of yoginis emerged. These rights culminated in sexual rituals. Scholars of Tantra stress that sexual rights have always been a very small part. As a whole, tantra is really more about power than about sex. But the main goal of the Tantric practitioner would be to achieve bodily supernaturalism. While many Tantric texts name seven or more paths, the notion of two juxtaposed paths, right way and left way, was the one propagated in the Western occult. We'll talk a little bit more about how that happened in the next reading. The idea that Tantra could easily be divided into two traditions, opposed resonated with the already established division of black and white magic. It was Helena Blavatsky, there's that name again of the Theosophical Society who popularized the Indian and Tantric connections. But the evolution of the Left Hand Path cannot be discussed without mentioning the most infamous occultist of the 20th century and aleister Crowley. While Crowley did not use the term Left Hand Path. His magical philosophy and practice has been extremely influential on the later Left Hand Path below. Crowley's use of sex as an initiatory tool, his stance towards traditional society and religion, his focus on the will as an instrument of the magician and his uncompromising attitude have all influenced Left Hand Path spiritualities. When Tantra is appropriated in Western context, it can be attributed in part to experienced misrepresentations of the feminine and religious history, but also to the appeal of positive Oriental Orientalism, where the west is valued for its exotic qualities and imagined spiritual virtues. In Jewish mysticism, the character of Lilith is sometimes regarded as the first woman cast out of Eden and the mother of Evil. Similarly, the left side has in many cultures been regarded as the size of evil and wrongness, and also often the feminine. Tommy Ericson writes that quote, the feminine primal force has been deported to the darkness and the Dark Goddess has become nothing more than a symbol of. Of death. One of the goals of the magician is to approach this negative symbol, understand the true meaning of it. One way of approaching the Western Left Hand Path appropriations of Tantra would be to see it as a critique of both negative Orientalism and modern west and its problematic discourses on sexuality, both the restrictive and the ones that overemphasize the centrality of sexual intercourse. At the same time, the Left Hand Path groups are often engaged in positive Orientalist discourses that cast a longing gaze to the exotic Orient, a feature so much central to so much esoteric discourse. I want to be clear that phrase positive Orientalism, positive doesn't necessarily mean good in that context, but it does mean that not stigmatized, not an effort to stigmatize or vilify directly. So a lot happening here. First of all, we've got so this idea of the, these, these Tantric practices in which sex and sometimes also other taboo materials like consumption of alcohol, for example, may be used to propitiate these powerful but potentially pardon the, pardon the word now, sinister spiritual entities. Right, Dina?
- [44:41]
Dina
I read something very interesting along these lines in Stephen Flowers book Lords of the Left Hand Path, where he was talking about the Tantric origins of the terms right and left hand path. And he said the actual origin of the terminology of Right Hand path versus left verses, meaning that they're, you know, opposed to each other. Left Hand Path is rooted in the vocabulary of Indian Tantric sects. The two main divisions of these are the. Let's see if I can say this. Dakshinakara, the right way and Vamakara, left way. And then he goes on. This is really interesting. The eventual elaboration of the distinction between right hand path and left hand path is quite complex. But its origins are most probably rooted in the widespread Tantric doctrines of a natural flow of universal force through the human body along a left to right line that enters from the left and exits to the right. This is mirrored by a cosmic flow of force from the north to the south. When the human being is oriented facing east towards the east. This flow pattern is said to be in harmony with the one natural to his body. As his left hand is to the north, his right hand is to the south. Here are the roots of the key to the common antinomianism and the reversal of normal patterns which are found in Left Hand Path Tan. To reverse the left to right pattern contrary to nature and cosmic law requires an exercise of the faculty of will. This is an act of rebellion against nature and against divinely ordained cosmic order. In almost technical terms, the right hand path is going with the natural flow and the left hand is going against the flow. And going against this flow, individuals more fully articulate or individuate themselves within their environments. Independence and freedom are attained and maintained and perhaps even personal immortality is to be gained.
- [46:54]
Tabitha
I.
- [46:54]
Daniel
That's fascinating. Something that I find very interesting here is that these are very specifically gendered beliefs. These spiritual entities that are being discussed here are depicted in explicitly feminine terms. And, and as, as Granholm here points out, there is also a comparison to other cultural contexts in which we have, you know, feminine spiritual forces which are profound and powerful, but also perceived as chaotic and destructive. And that must be usually warm, don't forget.
- [47:24]
Tabitha
Awkward, yes, Awkward, yes.
- [47:28]
Daniel
The awkward and clumsy demoness is of tantric yoga. Oh, we're gonna get, we're gonna get an angry email about that one. Thank you.
- [47:36]
Tabitha
Sorry.
- [47:38]
Daniel
But what's interesting here is, is this idea that, you know, the holy man is presumed to be a holy man and he is evidently going to harness and, and engage with these, with these, with these feminine esoteric powers in first of all, by fucking, as it turns out. And then also. And so on the one hand, we might characterize that as, to use anachronistic phrase, kind of sex positive relative to all of those tradition, all those religious traditions that are terrified of the idea of sex, or at least sex in most contexts. But on the other hand, it does seem to me that there's a distinctly chauvinistic vibe to this, this idea that, oh, well, you know, all of these demoness really just need a good Deep dicking before we can put them in their place. If that's not what the vibe in the original Tantric context is, because I don't know anything about tantruism. It's definitely the vibe that you get once west quote unquote, Western occultism starts to take over. Even though as we point out here, it is a woman who introduced these terminologies to us for better or for worse. Am I wrong?
- [48:41]
Dina
No, I think that you're correct. I don't think that the original and a lot of this stuff dates even farther back. I really went down a rabbit hole with this. It goes clear back to Zoroastrian and even pretty that to Indo Iranian beliefs that then trickled down into the Tantric practices, you know, through the Rigveda and all that. And so it's. I don't believe that there was that chauvinistic attitude in the, when it was originally being practiced. I think that's a Western, Western influence, for lack of a better word. And Blavatsky, surely she did not approve of the Left Hand Path at all.
- [49:35]
Daniel
Yeah, we'll get to that in the next item. I just want to point out here, grandhome here bringing up Crowley. I'm not sure we can blame this all on Crowley, but if we could it would not be surprising.
- [49:45]
Dina
You can blame a lot of stuff on him.
- [49:50]
Daniel
For more on that, go Back to episode 38 for our history of Aleister Crowley. I'm very curious what you think about this because on the one hand it seems to me, and again we're speaking in very broad terms here about practices from a older and an older spiritual tradition that is definitely not ours and is probably. And yet at the same time it seems to me that if we are inheriting these terms through this lens, if we are Satanists, if we are occultists, if we are dedicated to this left handed idea, it seems to me that the way that we should engage with this idea of these kind of chaotic feminine demonic power is not by this idea that we're going to tame and corral that in this way of sort of like, like, like the Lesser Key of Solomon with dildos. Instead it should be that just like. No, no, we're going to identify with that outside demonic power. Actually that feels like that should be what we're getting down with here. Does what I'm saying make any sense?
- [50:58]
Tabitha
I think it does. And I think that there will be a lot of like kind of modern witches and stuff that that is what they're doing, that that's or that's what they feel like they're doing when they're, you know, tapping into those kinds of things is that they're. They feel like they're kind of tapping into the chaos and the awkwardness, which I will never let go, by the way.
- [51:20]
Daniel
And the clumsiness. Don't forget the clumsiness.
- [51:22]
Tabitha
And the clumsiness. But, you know, maybe not the clumsiness, but I feel like that is something that a lot of modern witches, whether they are even within a belief system where they. The. They think these things are real or not, are tapping into that and. And trying to, like, conceptualize it and, you know, be. Have that be a truth that helps propel them forward. Does that make sense?
- [51:47]
Daniel
Absolutely. And again, I want to be clear. I am not sitting here calling Tantric mysticism chauvinistic or misogynistic. It might well be, but I have no idea. But I'm saying that I feel definitely that the way it's come to us through these appropriated practices later. A great example of that, if we go back to Johnny Truant, co founder of the First Church of the Morning Star and friend of the show, although I don't think we ever had him on, come to think of it. In fact, maybe he would have been a good guest for the show, but I'm just thinking about it now, so. Too late there. In any case, he wrote an essay embracing the Satanic feminine that brings up an example of his personal annoyance with this idea of these. The idea of a succubus was supposed to be a frightening encounter with a sexual power that is outside of yourself. And yet he complains that in his opinion, a lot of modern occultists have fetishized the succubus in a way that one just kind of services a male gaze and also at the same time is really sort of backwards and doesn't make any sense in the original context of the myth. Again, it would probably be simplistic to say that we can relate that phenomena all the way back to this more ancient one, but if somebody who was more educated on the topic told me that was right, I would believe them.
- [53:04]
Dina
Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked. Okay. From Tantra's metahistory, Phil Hein in folding.org 2010. I will now turn to the Left Hand Path was used by Helena, Helena Blavatsky and other theosophists. She equates Tantra with sorcery and black magic. Terms such as Left Path and the Brothers of the Left, Left Hand and Right Hand Adepts are scattered Throughout Blavatsky's opus, the Secret Doctrine and her many articles, the picture which emerges in the Secret Doctrine is that of a long struggle between right and left handed epsilon, with the right hand adepts transmitting and seeking to preserve ancient wisdom, and the left hand adepts seeking to pervert and corrupt it. This war, she asserts, has been going on since the close of the period of the Atlanteans. Blavatsky shows how the record of this war has been allegorized in texts such as the Bible. Central to her scheme of the evolution of humanity is the concept of ancestors descended from a purely spiritual existence into matter. Over the course of vast epochs of time, these early races reproduced themselves by a variety of spiritual means as they gradually became less spiritual and more material. Needless to say, in order for contemporary mankind, the fifth race to evolve, the lower emotions or animal passions must be discarded. Blavatsky, throughout much of her writings, is keen to distinguish true occultism from sorcery and magic, which can easily become black magic for selfish ends such as acquiring money or influence. The belief that there was a shadowy fraternity of left handed depths became increasingly important after Blavatsky's death. And there is a continual, continual pointing of fingers at enemies said to be inspired by or working for the Lords of the Dark faith.
- [55:16]
Tabitha
The Lords of the Dark face is so silly sounding, right?
- [55:22]
Daniel
Yeah, listeners, you did not mishear that. It's not Lords of the Dark Faith. It was apparently face.
- [55:32]
Dina
Visage.
- [55:37]
Daniel
Well, for context, Blocky was a Russian noblewoman of some kind. I can't remember if that's by birth or marriage, but she had some titled background of some kind. And in the early late 19th, early 20th century, she was, as Dena points out, traveling around the world and studying allegedly all of these various religious and quote unquote mystical practices. And she founded Theosophy. She didn't like the word religion. She thought the word religion was bankrupt. She did not like calling Theosophy that. She thought it was a brand new kind of spiritual path that was going to open up and enlighten the world and bring back these ancient lost secrets. Yes, the reference there to the Atlanteans, for example, if anybody in your life has has an opinion about the mystical secrets of Atlantis, it's because of Blavatsky, again in that six degrees of separation kind of way.
- [56:34]
Dina
Right, right, yeah, that is accurate. And I think that she held like Gnostic view, like it was kind of a form of Gnosticism, I think, with some like Neoplatonism thrown in. There and Hinduism there was a lot.
- [56:53]
Daniel
I'm getting most of this out of book. I think I've mentioned on the show once, twice before, called the Unidentified by a writer called Colin Dickey. Dickey, also the author of Ghostland, another great book. Tabitha's sister gave me this book for Christmas last year. Great read. And he cites some biographers who say Blotsky is arguably one of like the 10 most important people for the 20th century, at least in quote, unquote, the west be, even though probably not a lot of people could place her name. But all of these quote unquote, new age and spiritual ideas, all of the ways that religion diversified and weirded out a little bit just a few decades after her writings do kind of trace to her in many ways. There's also a very negative and unfortunate side to her writings that are also appropriated by fascists and other far right weirdos. And it gets pretty grim there. But that's a topic for a different show, unfortunately. But yes, Blavatsky believed that she was. And first of all, she claimed that she got this information from, quote, hidden masters who lived in the mountains of Tibet and previously had been uncontacted by the outside world for countless generations. I'll pause so you can. Yep, there we go.
- [58:11]
Tabitha
Sure.
- [58:12]
Daniel
Yeah.
- [58:13]
Tabitha
And they spoke English, right?
- [58:16]
Daniel
I have no idea. I wasn't there. I don't.
- [58:18]
Dina
Or automatic writing.
- [58:20]
Tabitha
Right.
- [58:20]
Daniel
I mean, maybe she was speaking to them in Russia. That would certainly make sense.
- [58:23]
Tabitha
Sure. And yes, part uncontacted, but they speak Russian.
- [58:30]
Daniel
Yes. Part of the, part of the secrets that she supposedly was imparted on this is the knowledge of, you know, again, the ancient power of Atlantis and pre Atlantean civilizations. The ultimate origins of human beings are sort of divine, sort of divine lineage. And also this idea of these two warring good guy and bad guy factions which, see, she used those, she borrowed those left and right hand path terms for. And so in her mind, the left hand path is not tantra specifically as it's practiced, as we just learned in the previous sources. It's evil magic of every possible kind of the most ancient possible kind. And this idea that, you know, this idea that this real. That this hidden history is sort of been recorded in a distorted manner in every religious text from the beginning of time, Bible included. And we just need to sort it all out and then we can ascend to our true potential. Again, this kind of talk should sound very familiar if you, for example, have any friends who are really into crystals.
- [59:48]
Dina
Yes, Yep, yep.
- [59:52]
Daniel
So, and as we'll see, it's deeply weird, deeply ironic that Blavatsky's appropriation of these terms is. Is profile, has profound implications both for modern New Age spiritualism and for modern Satanism. Because we have another source coming up in a couple of. In a couple of minutes who has opinions about that. And I bet you know his name.
- [60:15]
Tabitha
Like, I feel like the. There's so many seeds of so many things that, you know, a lot of people now believe or, like, take as some kind of fact, including some of this conspiratorial thinking about Atlanteans. And.
- [60:33]
Dina
Wasn'T she, like, accused of, like, plagiarism or something at one point? Taking something and she's watered it down, like, and taken all of the actual importance and all the nuance out of it completely. Jesus. Well, apocalyptic literature comes out of, you know, a really, really severe persecution and this need for justice, but was influenced by the Zoroastrian beliefs, so they aren't really the same thing. And I don't know if I can't think of any other religious context where it's taken and then kind of minimized and all. All the. All the important stuff is taken out of it. And that's what I think that she did.
- [61:32]
Daniel
Yes, certainly. Speaking of crystals, I'm very. I'm very much wondering now what our friend Jane will think of this episode when she finally hears it. Refer Back to episode 47, our very first Lilith episode, to find out more about Jane and why this might resonate with her, particularly, pardon the term resonate. Sorry. No, certainly, Dina, what you're saying, I just want to point out Blavatsky hated spiritualism. She also didn't like the word magic. She thought magic was kind of coterminous with sorcery. Again, she wanted to distinguish her practice. Her religion wasn't a religion. Her magic isn't magic. She definitely wanted to escape those terms. Tabitha.
- [62:07]
Dina
Right.
- [62:08]
Tabitha
Oh, I just wanted to say that I did look it up. And the reason why she's not more famous today is because of the plagiarism that I think right after her death and these Alec alications came out that her work was plagiarized.
- [62:27]
Dina
I thought you were gonna say Alakazam.
- [62:30]
Tabitha
Magic. Magic. Allegations. Yes, allegations.
- [62:33]
Daniel
That's when you use Left Hand Path black magic to launch allegations at somebody so that the secrets of the hidden, hidden masters don't get out. I'd save the world.
- [62:44]
Tabitha
So. Yeah, but that is why that she's not extremely famous in. In these circles today is because of these, you know, probably for her being a woman and a foreign woman and also that she may or may not have plagiarized most of her work.
- [63:02]
Dina
Yeah.
- [63:03]
Daniel
Tabitha, what do you think again about our, our relationship to how this term is evolving through history? We look at its original context and it's all about this sort of mystical practice of sublimating and maybe profiting off of these chaotic, unruly magical powers. That's interesting. But again, the approach feels backwards for what I would characterize as probably our attitudes about those, about those themes. Then we come into this idea that, no, the Left Hand Path is just black magic and spiritual evil that goes back to, you know, before the beginning of mankind. Well, that's a little more interesting because obviously that as resonates a little bit there. I did it again with our, with our inheritance of the Satan myth. But at the same time it's very antagonistic. It's, it's. It does not feel like something that we should be. Terms that we should be adopting, or at least that's how it feels to me. What do you think?
- [63:56]
Tabitha
Well, it's interesting that we're kind of veering towards more like in this, we're hearing animalistic and kind of base. Right. Whereas Right Hand Path is more like higher power, higher thinking. And I think that is an interesting kind of pivot that at least as far as this writing, the narrative of the writings is kind of laying out that we're going from like, it's not just like, it went from like straight up just evil and to a pivot of like, you know, it's your. It's stuff that's. That belongs to you. It's inside of you, but it's your animal instincts, it's your, you know, your basis part of you.
- [64:36]
Daniel
That's a great point. It's not just being conflated with evil. Evil is also being conflated with a bunch of other stuff. And for more on that, Tabitha, I think you're up next with the Satanic.
- [64:48]
Tabitha
Bible by Anton Lavey in 1969. White Magic is supposedly utilized only for good or unselfish purposes. And black magic, as we're told, is for selfish or evil reasons. Satanism draws no such dividing line. The magician should have the ability to decide what is just and then apply the powers of magic to his goals. During white magical ceremonies, the practitioners stand within a pentagram to protect themselves from the evil forces which they call upon for help. To the Satanist, it seems a bit too faced to call on these forces for help while at the same time protecting yourself from them. The Satanist realizes that only by putting himself in league with these forces can he fully and unhypocritically utilize the powers of darkness to his best advantage. Satanism as a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal, all of which are ruled by Satan and the personification of the Left Hand path. Satanism, realizing the current needs of man, fills the void between religion and psychiatry. Only black and white candles are to be used in Satanic ritual. At least one black candle is placed to the left of the altar, representing the powers of darkness in the left hand path. Other black candles are placed where needed for illumination. Thanks. Thanks, Tony. One white candle is placed to the right of the altar, representing the hypocrisy of the white light magicians and the followers of the right Hand path. Black candles are used for power and success for the participants of the ritual. The white candle is used for destruction of enemies.
- [66:46]
Daniel
So, yeah, lavey only uses that term, left hand path, a couple of times in the Satanic Bible, but obviously its use was very influential. And when he talks about these distinctions, when he's talking about the left as not only black magic, but also as carnality and indulgence, it's very clear that he is addressing the lineage of Blavatsky's belief. Belief, if not necessarily her directly. I don't think he name drops her anywhere in this book either.
- [67:13]
Dina
Well, of course, that's his interpretation of Satan. You know, that's. I have a different view. I don't see. I mean, I guess with Satan, I see, yes, accepting and not considering evil, the carnality of humanity, but, you know, the. The powers of darkness, that just sounds, you know, like he's trying to be extra edgy and spooky. So, you know, I don't. Yeah, I would definitely kind of disagree with. With old Tony here.
- [67:51]
Tabitha
I guess something I like about this, though, is the idea of, like. I like the idea that's like, don't call upon these deities if you don't want to just be in league with them. Like, I like the idea of, like, this whole protection against these things. Like, you're still calling upon them, and you're still asking them to do potentially bad things for you. So why should you be in your little secret. It's not secret. Your little sacred circle, and not get, you know, and not get down. Get low down with the. With the demons.
- [68:25]
Dina
Well, that's true.
- [68:27]
Daniel
Go ahead, Dina.
- [68:29]
Dina
I was just agreeing with Tabitha.
- [68:31]
Daniel
Well, that is one of those historic, historical ironies of old Anton's Writings that we've talked about in the past where he will take on what is actually, ironically, a very conservative, almost fundamentalist position. He says black and white magic are the same thing, and the preacher tells us that same thing. He would say that anyone who is calling upon the power of the devil is invoke. Is making a profoundly satanic act, even if you're doing it in the context of the white magic. You know who else said that? The Pope, The Inquisition, all of those weird church fathers who created the myth of witchcraft in the first place. See Norman Cohn's Europe Inner Demons for more on that. We've talked about that on this show. So he adopts these very conservative positions and only slightly amends them. He's doing the same thing with Blavatsky. He is suggesting that, yes, the Left Hand Path is about carnality and indulgence and materialism and black magic and the devil, but I'm fine with that. If I was going to be critical of lavey from a magical perspective, if I was somebody. If I was somebody who practiced magic, which of course, is, as listeners know, I am not. Unless you stretch the definition to encompass things that I do anyway, which, you know, okay. But I would be saying something like, yeah, of course I'm protecting myself from demons. They're demons. If I was operating a nuclear power plant, you know what I would be be? I'd be wearing one of those Homer Simpson containment suits because, like, yeah, the power is good for me, but that doesn't mean I necessarily have to insulate myself from them. And if the idea is like, well, that's hypocritical, really. Demons think I'm a hypocrite. What do I give a. It's not a very persuasive argument, quite frankly. Where I do think he's persuasive, though, is in taking contest. Is taking. Is contesting the definition of evil. The idea that human nature, our sinful human ways, our desire for carnal indulgence and material satisfaction is evil. That. That's. That that is something that he takes an issue with, and so do I. I actually think that that perspective is right. I do think that Dean, as you point out, he is even in this passage, a little inconsistent when he talks about the candles. A bit that got snipped out here for time is he says to use the candles to represent Lucifer, the Lightbringer, the bearer of the enlightenment. But then at the same time, he is also conflating Lucifer with Satan. The. You know, the. The power of darkness and and human indulgence and carnality and kind of this sort of appealing filthiness. He did mix those two ideas in a way that older Satanist and Luciferian writers did not, which is interesting at least.
- [70:57]
Dina
Yeah, I don't like his equating, you know, just being a human being with evil. I, I, I don't agree with that at all. In fact, I would tend to more agree with like the Luciferian concept of, you know, the left hand path and what it's about over Tony's idea. So with, you know, where it's more about the, the individualism and it's self oriented, it's free thinking, religion, denying the centrality of the self is a world accepting view rather than a world denying view like Christianity is. So yeah, I disagree with him on that part. And.
- [71:49]
Daniel
It is like I just said there, the preacher man says that the nature of humanity is to sin and Antonovay tells us the same thing. It is very interesting that there is profound overlap between those perspectives, only the conclusions are different. Tabitha, you're about to say, I was.
- [72:06]
Tabitha
Just gonna say, I think I'm, I like more the last reading with the pivoting toward it being animalistic than like this where it is just kind of like being in the left hand path is just, just living your life. Because then like it doesn't seem like it's any special or that everybody's doing it already, if that makes sense. And like, oh, so you're not actually heading down any sort of path, you're just kind of everybody is doing this except for white magicians or perhaps Christians. I'm not really sure.
- [72:40]
Daniel
That does come up in this. Again, this, this passage, these two passages really are abbreviated for time. There is a bit where he goes on to say, well then why bother with religion if this is just what human beings are doing naturally Anyway, his answer to that is a little equivocating. Honestly, it's why I didn't include it here. But maybe something to discuss later. Let's hear a little bit from Stephen Flowers from his book Lords of the Left Hand Path 2012. Quote, we will begin with definitions. I'm gonna pause because that usually cracks up Tabitha. Not this time.
- [73:10]
Tabitha
Okay, Webster's Dictionary.
- [73:12]
Daniel
There we go. This is the introduction, by the way. They did not get very far into this book before I found the material that I was looking for. Philosophical inquiry calls for clarity and we need clarity for this publicly unexplored realm. The universe is the totality of existence, both known and unknown. This is a complex model divided into at least two comp. It's a complex model. It's two things, no? The 1 the objective universe and 2 the subjective universe. The objective universe is the natural cosmos or world order equated with nature as well as with God. The subjective universe is the particularized manifestation of consciousness within the universe. Usually, experience of the objective universe is only indirect as information concerning it must come through the subjective universe. In the most philosophically refined of the schools of the left hand path, the first principle of isolate intelligence is identified as the Prince of Darkness. This is the archetype of the self. Self is capitalized from which all particular selves are derived. This is also an element of the non natural universe which objectively belongs to the universe itself. I want to let the readers know I actually trimmed this quite a bit for clarity. If you're having trouble following I. I did my best. In this way, the Prince of Darkness can be seen as an independent sentient being in the objective universe because this is the very principle of that quality in the universe. So to be clear, Satan is your subjective perspective, but he's also an objective. He also have an objective presence in the universe outside you. Because I don't know. He has to be. I guess the central question now becomes in the Is the way in which a conscious free soul is going to relate to the objective universe or the universe as a whole? The right hand path answers this question by saying the subjective universe must harmonize itself with the laws of the objective universe, God or nature. So Dina, this is what you were referring to here. This idea of who are you going what and who are you going to relate to? Continuing the right hand path is the path of union with universal reality. The left hand path takes into account the manifest and deep seated desire of each human being to be free and empowered and independent actor. They eschew right hand path admonitions and such behavior is evil and that they should basically quote get with the program and become good quote company men. From a certain enlightened perspective, both paths are perfectly good. Are they? That's not the okay is just a matter of the conscious exercise of the will to follow one in an aware state which without self delusion. Essentially the left hand path is the path of non union with the universe. Where the right hand path is the theocentric. Where. Where the right hand path is theocentric, the left hand path is psychocentric or soul self centered. The historical conceptualizations of white magic and black magic will be discussed below, but I will simply be using white magic as a dignation for the spiritual methodology or technology of the Right Hand Path and black magic as a designation for that of the Left Hand Path, widely thought to be satanic or evil. But images rarely correspond to reality, despite what Madison Avenue or Washington, D.C. would have you believe. True lords capitalized of the Left Hand Path capitalized will have the spiritual courage to identify himself with the cultural norms of evil. There will be an embracing of the symbols of conventional evil or impurity or rationality, or whatever quality the creature conventional culture fears and loathes. We fear rationality, don't you know? The Lord of the Left Hand Path, no longer capitalized for some reason, will set himself apart from his fellow man. Evil becomes good, impure becomes pure, Darkness becomes light. Okay, Dina, so I'm sorry if I sounded snide with that reading there because you, like you said, you like this book, and your opinion, your perspective matters. Give us the skinny. Give us the skinny here.
- [77:17]
Dina
Well, he does use a lot of words. He does use a lot of words.
- [77:20]
Daniel
Many of which I left out. But you know what? So do I. That's. That's not necessarily unforgivable.
- [77:30]
Dina
I think that the. How do I even say this?
- [77:38]
Daniel
I shouldn't put you on the spot.
- [77:39]
Dina
I thought it's a lot.
- [77:43]
Daniel
Before I tell people what I think about this, I think, you know.
- [77:48]
Dina
I think that it's like the. The Right Hand Path is. It's, you know, it's basically everything that he says it is, right? It's. It's trying to, you know, align oneself with God and being. You're. You're going along with everybody else for the most part. Part. I think that the. The Left Hand Path requires more honesty with oneself because everybody has a dark and light nature to, you know, to their nature. And if you deny that darkness, then I don't think you can really be a whole person. But we have a whole bunch, you know, a lot of people in especially the Abrahamic religions do exactly that. Or even in Wicca, you know, everything is. You can't harm anybody, you know, harm none, or else it'll come back you threefold. And I think it really denies just a major part of humanity. So I think that the. I think that's what he's getting to here. And it's a very hard thing to explain. That's why there's so many words. Well, that it's just a more. I mean, I would say it's a more enlightened path, even though it's not about the light, but unless you count that black flame.
- [79:18]
Daniel
No, I Definitely see what you're, what you're getting at here. My question, and we touched on this, you know, an hour ago, is this idea. So on the one hand, he's conflating this idea of the goal of oneness with God, quote, unquote. How defining that, and then also sort of the path of the majority opinion. But that's not necessarily. Those are not necessarily the same thing. Again, we go back to, you know, Jesus as this weird spiritual, apocalyptic diffident in his days, who, you know, who on the one hand was preaching what he would view as oneness with God or God's will, but on the other hand was certainly not in the religious and social majority of the time. In fact, we see spiritual leaders of all sorts and political leaders love to depict themselves as being outsiders. Whether it's true or not, we get that still with, like American evangelical Christianity is convinced that they are a tiny, besieged minority and that is evil, godless Satanists are surrounding them on all sides when, of course, that is not necessarily true at all.
- [80:16]
Dina
Right, Exactly. It's not true. Yeah. But I mean, I still think that Jesus wasn't doing it to, well, to deify himself. Apparently he was already deified. But it wasn't about himself. It wasn't about him embracing his carnal nature. It was about him showing people that they had gone too far away from even the law of Moses, because he said he was not there to do away with the law, but to uphold it. Sure, yeah. I think there's a difference there.
- [81:00]
Daniel
So at the very least, as your, as our Bible school teachers would have us, the idea of indulging your carnal nature was the norm. Then the, the, the small embattled minority was these weirdo ascetic preachers saying, no, no, give away everything you have. Come with me. Walk into the desert. The time is die.
- [81:19]
Dina
Yeah.
- [81:20]
Daniel
So in flowers, definition, which of those is the right or the left path? But you know what? This might be anachronistic. He is writing in 2012. He is not. You know, I'm saying it's like, well, Stephen, what does your, how does your perspective translate to, you know, first century Judea? I guess the answer might be like. It doesn't. Why are you bringing that up? I'm really curious what your opinion is again. You, you being unfamiliar with this work, except for what we just. What we just read.
- [81:47]
Tabitha
I gotta tell you, I'm a little stuck on like that. It's a lot of words and I know that's not, that's not right. Like in that you know, the, like. Yeah, there's meaning behind that. You know, get into that. And it's like. But it's like this, just this huge column of text, and I don't understand the original.
- [82:10]
Daniel
The original is so much longer. So if that's your hang up, then.
- [82:14]
Tabitha
I know, and I'm. And I'm sorry because I realized, like, that this is probably not the answer you want, because I'm, like, not gonna split the difference between, you know, liking this or not liking this. Because I'm just like, this is. It's too many words.
- [82:28]
Daniel
No, I mean. I mean, you're not wrong. That's a very valuable perspective. Here is. So here's the deal. I hadn't read this book before, even though it's relatively well known. In fact, I resisted it. And I will admit that my motivations for that were not very profound. It was mostly. This sounds like a pompous title. And I feel like it's just gonna rub me the wrong way. And also, I do think that Flowers has a reputation as kind of a diet Nazi. That's a separate topic. He's dead now and can't sue me for saying that. So. So here's the thing. Reading the book, especially just this intro, and, like, I get to the first couple of pages, and you know what it reminds me of? I'm gonna date myself with this reference. But here is what I couldn't. I couldn't get around. I threw it on the ground. You must think I'm a joke. I ain't gonna be part of this system, man. Rub that garbage in another man's face. I couldn't picture Stephen Flowers as anything except that guy. And once that was in my head, it was all over. But he does work that way. He's like. He's like, no, if you're. If you're a profound individualist, if you're a lord of the left hand path, you're going to reject the system. The man's not going to indoctrinate you. Don't listen to what Madison Avenue says. This is what he writes here with a straight face. Exactly. And so. But, okay, you know what? I will acknowledge, as Dina points out, just because the way he's saying it is, to me, silly or pretentious, doesn't mean he's wrong or that he is not, at the very least telling us something about this material that we do not necessarily get from another writer. So it could be that my hang ups are robbing me of a great insight here. I don't think so. But I've been wrong before. It happens. Also, that clip was way louder than I expected. Sorry.
- [84:23]
Dina
It was, it was loud and in on all transparency. I have no idea what that clip was.
- [84:30]
Daniel
Oh, really?
- [84:31]
Dina
Yeah.
- [84:32]
Daniel
I'll. Since I'll send you the video, I have no clue. Tabitha knows what I'm talking about.
- [84:38]
Tabitha
Yeah, it's Andy Sandberg. Is it actually snl?
- [84:42]
Daniel
I think it was, yeah.
- [84:43]
Tabitha
Or it's pre snl. I don't know. It's. It's literally just a guy who's like throwing on the ground and throwing tantrums.
- [84:50]
Daniel
But I, I will often go back to this video in my mind again when we talk about these sorts of shallow, pretentious, self important online occultists. You know, this is how their, this is how their attitude comes off to me many times. There's also the, there's a, there's a meme from an episode of the X Files where a guy's saying, excuse me, the technical term is techno pagan. And there's a shot of Scully just looking like she wants to melt through the floor and die. I had that response too.
- [85:22]
Dina
I can, I can understand that. I guess I don't really mind all of his words so much because I find that he has a lot of like actual accurate historical information and he has a PhD and he presents it like he actually cites things. And I was like, this is exciting to see in the occult world, you know.
- [85:49]
Daniel
Well, so here's my question, putting aside my criticism, which, like I said, maybe are not fair. Well, I mean, I think they're fair, but maybe they're not relevant to the conversation we're having here. So he's presenting what I would think is actually kind of a new definition of these terms. I think that he is moving away from what lavey is telling us and away from where Blavatsky came from. Because now we're getting the definition of Left hand path not as black magic, but as individual or as self indulgence, but as individualism. And of course you can say that black magic and self indulgence are a part of that, but it seems to be like they're not necessary for that. Whereas the right hand path is just here, kind of conformity. Right? Am I reading it wrong?
- [86:35]
Dina
I mean, I think there's more to it than that.
- [86:38]
Daniel
Go on.
- [86:38]
Dina
But so he says, like, although beyond good and evil, this path requires the most rigorous of ethical standards, these standards are based on understanding and not blind obedience to external authorities. This later characteristic of the true Left Hand path is the chief cause of its misunderstanding, not only for those on the outside, but for some who would follow the path as well. Takes an enormous amount of spiritual courage to persevere in the face of rejection by not only the world around them, but by elements within their own subjective universe as well. Many break under the strain and fall away from the aim and sink back into the morass of court cultural norms. So it's. A lot of it is just, you know. Yeah, a lot of it is eschewing cultural norms. And that's what the. When I was researching and reading everybody else's, you know, that I could find, that was just a really common. Common thread. You know, Michael W. Ford from the Luciferian. That was. Yeah, it was a big thing for him as well. And a bunch of videos that I watched. And so that seems to be. And I, you know, I tend to like that. So maybe that's. Maybe that's why it resonates with me. Like I'm saying resonate now. Anyway, it's the crystals.
- [88:04]
Daniel
The crystals are getting.
- [88:06]
Dina
Yeah.
- [88:09]
Daniel
What about you? Some of these things that we're saying here sound like they dovetail very nicely with. At the beginning of the conversation, you were talking about the left hand path as a sort of contrariness and as sort of as. As the contradiction to this sort of received wisdom that we get from people who are not us or not necessarily close to us, but because we're sort of inundated with. So that does seem like it's. It's in the vein that Dean is discussing here, Right?
- [88:36]
Tabitha
Yeah, I'd say definitely. I think that that makes a lot of sense with how I'm perceiving all this.
- [88:44]
Daniel
I. I will also say that, for example, if you look at our, our sba, social medias, and every day I do the daily affirmation, a lot of that material, maybe even all of it, is definitely what would fall under these definitions of the left hand path or a left handed perspective. Like, I would just never call it that because one, I don't think that terminology is. It's not good marketing.
- [89:08]
Tabitha
It's got baggage. It's got baggage.
- [89:10]
Daniel
Yeah. Yeah. I just don't think. I just don't think it's an attractive term for what we're communicating here. But again, arguably that is that. That. That is a cosmetic distinction that I am making there. If it's. It's fundamentally alike, I think that it.
- [89:25]
Dina
Only necessarily matters in the realm of talking with occultists, because I think most people don't care and have never heard of it to begin With. So if you're, if you're discussing with other occultists, you know, on whatever spectrum it's going to like, it's kind of. It means something in that context, right? I don't know that in Satanism or whatever where, where we function, I don't think we all go around saying, you know, I. I am a lady of this left hand path, you know, like my Lord, you know, I mean, I don't think we go around talking like that, but within the context of if I was talking with other, you know, with friends of mine who are, you know, Wiccan or whatever, then it would mean something.
- [90:20]
Daniel
Lady of the Left hand Path sounds like an incredible only fans account. Well, I, I think the next Source actually, actually works very closely with what we're saying. Some of the, Some of the. Some of the. Your more positive takeaways from Flowers, Perk and perspective. And I think you are up next.
- [90:43]
Dina
Is this the from There are many paths to recovery. Mine is on the left.
- [90:48]
Daniel
That's the one.
- [90:49]
Dina
Okay. By Jezebel Pride 2019 I am an addict and an alcoholic living a life of recovery. If you have spent any time in the traditional recovery meeting rooms, you know the mantra of the 12 step program is that it is a spiritual but not religious organization. If you have paid attention to the meetings while you were in those rooms, you know that this mantra is not often followed. Many meetings begin to resemble church services and often become like Bible study. As trusted servants of these meetings let them run unchecked. I realized the importance. I realized, excuse me, the importance of a left hand path based recovery meeting. When I was harassed after attending an AA meeting. When I got home, I emailed my local occult bookstore, Magus Books and Herbs, a place I've been to many times. It's in Minneapolis. It's a great store. And asked if I could host a recovery meeting in their classroom that would be welcoming to those of us who walked the path of the left. Their response was an overwhelming yes. We ended up having to find more chairs as 18 grateful addicts and alcoholics joined us that night. Each one of them was incredibly relieved that they had found a meeting where they could say the name of their higher power out loud without fear. I am currently writing a book outlining the theory behind the meetings. In 2013, I hit bottom. I walked into my kitchen and picked up a bottle of bourbon. And as I was about to pour it into my glass for the fifth time that night, I realized I was an alcoholic. In that moment, I was frozen with fear. I Knew recovery. I had done my time in treatment, and in the late 80s, as a drug addict, I began going to meetings again. I found a sponsor and started doing step work again. I found a therapist, and with her help, I began to go through a deep inner journey to the depths of my soul. The week before, I had my realization in the kitchen. I had been dreaming of La Ballain and La Sien, La Sireni. Not sure. Liminal goddesses.
- [92:53]
Daniel
Yeah, these are voodoo loa, I believe.
- [92:56]
Dina
Okay. Liminal goddesses. And to cross that threshold would mean stepping into my darkness. I allowed these two. How do I say that word? Lwa law. To come into my life and hold my hand through my recovery. Combining their healing with the understanding that Satan wants nothing more for us than to live to our highest potential, I embarked upon my journey of recovery. If any of you struggle with recovery and believe that you must sacrifice your spiritual paradigm in order to find healing, I stand as proof that there are many paths to recovery. Mine is on the left.
- [93:35]
Tabitha
I'm happy. Yeah, that brings me so much joy. Whatever gets you there, do it.
- [93:43]
Daniel
Me too. And I included this not just because I wanted an example of somebody using this terminology in a way that is distinctly very positive, but also in a way that is. That is. Is very profound to their process. It's very clear that Jezebel, whom we don't know, although I'm sure we would love to chat with them on the podcast someday if. If he's interested and a topic comes up. But in any case, it's very clear that the terms that they're. That that are used here are. Are not arbitrary. It's for. That phrase and everything that comes with it is clearly very personally empowering and very critical to the process that's being described here. And so I thought.
- [94:25]
Dina
Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think this is my. This aligns with how I view the left hand path, that it's this, you know, delving into the self in order to, you know, improve one's self in whatever way you want to improve yourself and to, like, know yourself better. So that. That's lines up nicely with that.
- [94:54]
Tabitha
I just love this, the end of this with. With the part about Satan, that Satan wants nothing more for us than to live to our highest potential. Yes, please. Thank you.
- [95:07]
Dina
Exactly. Yeah.
- [95:09]
Daniel
I also think that there's an important theme. You know, recovery is not something most people do alone or can do alone. In fact, maybe nobody. I don't want to say nobody because, you know, I've never lived everybody's experience. But there's generally the idea that you need a person there, you need a sponsor, you need a group, you need people who can relate you and support you when you are falling down. And I know that a lot of times people will sometimes relate the satanic idea of individualism or the left handed self interested path and make it antagonistic towards working with or relying on other people. But that just doesn't work. It also doesn't make any sense. Sometimes you will see that. You will see 60s Satanists decry say a group like the Satanic Temple or in Jezebel's case the Minnesota Left Hand Path Society which broke off from TST Low many years ago. But, and you will see them call this, they say it's like this isn't the Left hand path. This is too communal. It's, it's too, it's, it's, it's to collectivist. It's, it's involving too many other people and relying on and benefiting too many other people. And to those people I always say it's like one, it's like again, if you look at the people we're talking about, you look like, you know, is your impression of like queer, recovering alcoholic witch, Is that a person who is representative of the norm in society for you? Is this a person who is buying into conformity and herd behavior? What country do you live in? Also beyond that, again, it's just ridiculous. It's this idea that you know, fulfilling yourself does not mean isolating yourself from people. It can't. Because with very few exceptions that's just not how human animals work. You need to be able to reconcile those two things and it should be hard because they're not contradictory. But if you start thinking that they are, you're going to lead yourself to some very weird places. That's my opinion.
- [97:01]
Dina
That's true. And I think that like when, when we say, you know now terms like self centered or it takes on a connotation of a negative connotation. Right? It can mean just like self focused, like that we're focusing on the self and building and developing the self. It doesn't need to be that we're selfish and we don't care about anybody else. That's, that's a really simplistic way to look at it, I think.
- [97:34]
Daniel
I mean one thing we didn't talk about because there wasn't enough time and I couldn't find a very good source on it. There are some people who identify this term left hand path. With sort of far right politics and authoritarianism, which is deeply weird because authoritarianism is intensely antagonistic to individualism and self actualization. You know, an authoritarian fascist society is not one in which each person is free to pursue their own happiness. It is one in which there's a deeply rigid standard to which you must adhere or the consequences are profoundly dire. But you know, as we pointed out before, people have contradictory religious ideas that don't make sense. But that is also human nature. Especially not very bright people.
- [98:18]
Dina
Yeah. And I think that they like to just be scary people like that. And they are looking for a reason to justify doing the heinous things that they want to do. You know, I mean, I think of the order of nine angles, you know, comes to mind.
- [98:34]
Tabitha
This is from right. Left. What? Church of rational Satanism 2016 right hand path. Left hand path? Really? Who cares? It's only terminology. We are Satanists. Do we need to align ourselves with a left hand path and adhere to left hand path expectations? It's apparent that this term was adopted by Satanists due to its opposition and evil nature. But it is also a very inaccurate phrase to take on board as it is almost impossible to solely commit to either left or right. Does this mean we have no morals or we can never do something that appears to be good? If you're on the right hand path, does that mean you will never have a lustful thought or do something that's considered wrong? You can't give significance to human behaviors from terminology that is based on factors representing control and rebellion. Right being controlled action from various belief systems and left being the rebellion to break away from it. Whether we like to admit it or not, we all perform actions from both paths. We can be good just as easily as we can be bad. But that doesn't change who we are. When you get the Satanists who spout quote death to dwellers of the right hand path. It's annoying. Terminology has moved on from the original uses and now there is no need to use them at all. I'm in opposition of all choking suppressions and anything that does not lead to earthly happiness. I oppose the written clap trap that is said to come from the right hand path. But I don't oppose a good deed which can also be said to come from the right. I would oppose an action which could come from the left hand path if I didn't like or agree with it. But I wouldn't oppose a hateful action from the left if I saw it was justified. I could go on about the different differing opinions and arguments for the right and left classifications, but I don't see it as a necessity. Right and left hand paths, path classifications, just term what is supposed to be right and wrong, good and evil, moral and immoral, and are unnecessary. We are individuals and walk our own paths, not to the left or to the right. We are creating our own paths that lead to our gratification. Well, la di da. Aren't you so great with your above it all attitude?
- [101:16]
Daniel
Dude, I'm very curious what you think about this based on what we discussed a few minutes ago.
- [101:26]
Dina
I'm not sure what I think of it, to be honest.
- [101:29]
Daniel
Well, I think the, the obvious rejoinder to this. Oh, sorry, go ahead, go.
- [101:34]
Dina
No, go ahead.
- [101:34]
Daniel
I think the obvious rejoinder to this. This writer's name escapes me out the top of my head. Ben something. I think he says, we are individuals and we walk our own path, at least to our own gratification. I think the obvious joinder is, yeah, man, that's the left hand path. That's what that means.
- [101:49]
Dina
Yeah, right. Yeah, that's. That's kind of why I was like, wait, what?
- [101:55]
Daniel
And, and I think the distinction he's making here is very artificial. It's not a question of do we both do things that are good or bad in other people's eyes or even our own eyes? Yeah, of course we do. I watch Star Wars. I know how that works. The question is, what are we emphasizing? What do we think is acceptable? What do we want to think of as our best self or the best path forward for us? It's not necessarily what we do. It's an aspirational distinction that we're making here. All of that said, I do identify with some of his sentiments here. I think that the way he is assessing what these terms should mean is off base. But I think maybe he's reacting to a lot of the way these terms are used, which are often reductive or unhelpful or contradictory or just kind of pompous and annoying, as we've discussed before. And that I think is definitely an argument worth having here that we get. So if we get very bogged down in what we think or what we think other people think, these terms mean they can be very confining. And I think he's onto something there. Even if.
- [102:49]
Dina
Yeah, yeah, I think that he. I mean, where he says right and left hand path classifications just term what is supposed to be right and wrong, good and evil, moral and immoral, and are unnecessary, I don't think, I don't think that that's an accurate statement at all. I don't think that that's what the left and right hand path are about. So I think he kind of missed the. I think he missed the point.
- [103:21]
Daniel
That's true. But as we've seen for over 100 years now, these terms have been kind of a moving target. There has been like a. A tectonic shift of how. Of what these terms may mean, at least in. In conversation.
- [103:35]
Dina
Well, yes, I guess it's just a super, incredibly simplistic. The way that he explains it is very simplistic. And I don't. I don't see it as that. So I guess that's just my personal. That must be just my personal point of view of what it means to be on the left hand path, because I make everything more complicated than it should be. So that might just be a me thing.
- [104:02]
Daniel
Tabitha, how about you? You definitely didn't sound like you think much of this either.
- [104:06]
Tabitha
Yeah, here's the thing, and I was gonna save this for the end as like, kind of my closing statement of the whole thing is like, it's obvious from what we discussed today, and I pretty much. I thought of this before, is that this is a very individualistic thing. Right, left hand path, because it's a moving target. It has meant many, many, many different things. And so people can attribute it. You know, people can and have attributed it to all sorts of different things. And I think that this, the last thing we read is a little, you know, is definitely not the way I see it. So it feels extremely reductive. Even though I, I myself don't consider my. Like, I've never really delved into the whole left hand path thing. It's not something that I personally really get into. But, like, I still feel like this, you know, this isn't how I see it. But that doesn't mean that it necessarily isn't how they see it. I mean, obviously they wrote a thing.
- [105:07]
Daniel
Well, that is also going to be my closing sentiment on the topic, which is that before doing this show, I had basically this attitude about it. I'm like, okay, left hand path, whatever, man. Fine with the caveat. Caveat, Caveat. I always say this wrong. I've been corrected about this on the discord so many times with the writer attached to that, that if you like Jezebel or like many other people we've talked to find these terms empowering in a way that makes you healthy, then great. My opinion shouldn't, first of all, is all compared to that and also my opinion of that is good. If it works for you, then good. That is ultimately the only thing that matters. I will say though, that after having this discussion and listening to some of the things we said here, I do identify a little bit more with this term. I don't think I'm going to start using it and deploying it in the way that a lot of other Satanists do, but it definitely goes down easier now. And true, as Tabitha points out, we have also talked about the idea that it's a fraught and contradictory term. But at the same time, yeah, things change over the course of 140 years. We should probably accept that and move on. Dina, closing thoughts.
- [106:16]
Dina
Yeah, I mean, actually, you know, it dates back to well, well past Zarathustra. So like thousands of years. It's going to change. Obviously. I think that the left hand. I think that if, I mean, I'm not going to go around and say, declare that, you know, I am the possessor of the black flame and you know, I'm Magis to the 12th degree or whatever. That kind of stuff annoys me. But I think if you make up.
- [106:47]
Daniel
The 12 degrees, you can say you're whatever degree you like. That's, that's the key to that racket.
- [106:53]
Dina
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [106:56]
Daniel
The 12th degree is inventing the 12 degrees.
- [106:59]
Dina
Right, exactly.
- [107:00]
Daniel
Will ever resent.
- [107:02]
Dina
Yes. Maybe, maybe Set will come and tell me all the, you know, write in automatic writing all the history of this, the truth. You know, maybe he'll do that for me too. I don't know. But anyway, I think that it can be a useful tool as far as knowing oneself better. I think that's. And I use a lot of things in, as tools for that. I use tarot for think for that. Just the imagery that, you know, the left hand path stirs up is empowering to me. But it, mainly it tells me just to dig deeper. You know, it's to, to just know myself better and determine what is in my best, my best self interest. Because sometimes I have a hard time determining what that is. And, and sometimes I let you know, I'm sure everybody has done this. You know, you do things that you don't really want to do because you don't want to disappoint somebody or whatever. And I'm trying to not do things like that anymore. So this is, I see this as a tool to help me just be more of the person that I want to be. You know, that's evil in an evil way.
- [108:24]
Daniel
Yes. You know, that's a really great point. Something That I worry that we never really address is we use all of these terms. We talk about modern Satan, we talk about the individualism, the importance of the self. We talk about self gratification and we talk about the profundity of the ego. And I worry that there are lots of us who struggle with mental health challenges and with abuse and trauma. And a lot of us are going through life not feeling like we are profound or powerful or like our egos are feeding us or that like we are self says that we are fulfilling and gratifying ourselves and we don't feel like that. I worry that there are people out there who listen to this kind of talk and go, well, clearly this isn't for me because I'm a piece of and I need decades of intensive therapy. I would like for those people to realize this idea that's like, oh, well, this kind of talk must be for like people who are better than me or people like have their together or don't have my problems when in the reality it really should be the inverse. Really, like, no, this is the kind of talk for all of us who are that up. It is aspirational talk.
- [109:36]
Dina
Exactly, exactly.
- [109:37]
Daniel
And also everybody, everybody else is more up than you think they are, regardless of how they act.
- [109:42]
Dina
Very true. Very true. Yes. I mean, yeah, I have a whole bunch of, you know, things to overcome and this is just a one more tool for me to utilize to, you know, be all I can be without joining the military or whatever, whatever that phrase is from the army or whatever. I don't know. So. But yeah.
- [110:14]
Daniel
Well, Dina, thanks a lot for this conversation. We really appreciate it. If folks want to look you up, where should they go?
- [110:22]
Dina
Facebook is usually the best place to find me on messenger or just find me and send me a message, whatever. That'd be the best way. And thank you guys for having me again. I love being on the show. I'm not nearly as scared as I used to be.
- [110:41]
Daniel
Well, we love having you. Thank you.
- [110:44]
Tabitha
And if you want to find us not so scary, go ahead and email us@blackmassappealpodmail.com you can check out our website@blackmassappeal.com and we're on most social medias at Black Mass Appeal.
- [110:59]
Daniel
Find out more about Satanic Bay area. Check us out@satanicbayarea.com. you can find us all on Facebook, Instagram, Blue sky and Threads the Satanic Bay area. Or follow us on Twitter. The handle there is@Satanic SF. Tabitha is also on Tick Tock as Dailybafformations and do we want a Hell's Ant to go out on yay. 3, 2, 1.
- [111:28]
Tabitha
Right, right.
- [111:29]
Daniel
Ain't slept the wink all week long Lord knows we're so sick of it Right, Right where's my baby tonight? She don't call, she don't ride Is this a soldier's life Just counting the minutes Call the left to the right to the fight, to the battle.