Always with Richard Lawson

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David: Episode Summary – "Always" with Richard Lawson

Release Date: March 30, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of Blank Check with Griffin & David, hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims, alongside special guest Richard Lawson, delve into the intricacies of Steven Spielberg's lesser-discussed filmography, focusing specifically on the 1989 romantic fantasy remake, "Always." Produced by Ben Hosley, the episode offers a candid and in-depth exploration of the film's production, casting decisions, and its place within Spielberg's body of work.

---

Episode Focus: "Always" Directed by Steven Spielberg

"Always" is a remake of the 1943 MGM film "A Guy Named Joe," reimagined by Spielberg as a contemporary story involving aerial firefighting, romance, and supernatural elements. The film stars Richard Dreyfuss, Holly Hunter, and John Goodman, each bringing a unique dynamic to the narrative.

---

Guest Introduction: Richard Lawson

Richard Lawson joins Griffin and David to provide expert insights into the film's production and its reception. Lawson's experience and perspective enrich the discussion, offering listeners nuanced viewpoints on the film's strengths and shortcomings.

---

Discussion Points

a. Steven Spielberg's Direction on "Always"

Griffin opens the conversation by referencing Spielberg's attempt to migrate from his earlier, more technical blockbusters to a more intimate, character-driven narrative with "Always." He remarks:

"This is a Spielberg movie, and he is so prolific in his production that he feels like he's doing anything he wants, but with the reality that he can't."

Richard Lawson adds nuance to Spielberg's directorial choices, highlighting the challenges Spielberg faced in balancing technical prowess with emotional storytelling.

b. Casting Choices: Richard Dreyfuss, Holly Hunter, John Goodman

The trio discusses the casting of Richard Dreyfuss as Pete Sandich, Holly Hunter as Dorinda Warren, and John Goodman in a supporting role. Griffin expresses fascination with Dreyfuss's performance:

"I was like, to make him the most annoying character in a Hollywood movie, I've done it."

Lawson compliments Goodman's portrayal, noting his ability to bring warmth and depth to the character, despite limited screen time.

c. Richard Dreyfuss's Performance and Career

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Richard Dreyfuss's career trajectory. David critiques Dreyfuss's portrayal in "Always," considering him an "annoying little rat man" and laments his waning popularity post-"Goodbye Girl." He states:

"I think he gives it a wonderful performance in 'Jaws' and a wonderful performance in 'Close Encounters,' but it just... he needs to stop going to Lights Camera Jackson for therapy."

Griffin counters by emphasizing Dreyfuss's beloved status among audiences, suggesting that casting him as a romantic lead was an attempt to leverage his charisma.

d. Holly Hunter's Role and Career Trajectory

Holly Hunter's performance in "Always" is lauded for its intensity and emotional depth. The hosts reflect on her career post-"Always," noting a shift towards television and voice acting roles, which may have inadvertently led to her being underappreciated in the film industry. Griffin observes:

"She just wore the best dress in the history of movies, like, two years ago."

e. Comparison with Other Spielberg Works

The episode contrasts "Always" with Spielberg's other films, particularly "E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial" and "Schindler's List." They argue that while "E.T." successfully combines technical spectacle with heartfelt storytelling, "Always" struggles to find its identity, falling between being a blockbuster and a character study.

Lawson remarks:

"This is in some ways, I mean, there's a lot of technical skill in this one. But this... just kind of like a solid studio release from 1989."

f. Box Office and Critical Reception

"Always" had a modest box office performance, grossing around $3.7 million on a significant number of screens. While it recouped its budget, it didn't achieve the cultural impact of Spielberg's other works. Critics were divided, with some appreciating the emotional undertones, while others found it lacking in coherence and depth.

Richard Lawson notes:

"We were entering an era then when, like, earnest romantic dramas were kind of falling by the wayside."

g. Behind-the-Scenes Anecdotes

The hosts and Lawson share amusing and insightful behind-the-scenes stories, including Spielberg's insistence on casting choices and interactions with the actors. For instance, they recount how Spielberg's vision for Holly Hunter's character influenced her wardrobe and on-set treatment:

"She provides her own wardrobe," Griffin says, elaborating on the meticulous care taken to maintain her character's ethereal presence.

h. The Marlboro Tie-In and Marketing Strategies

A notable aspect of the film's marketing involved tie-ins with Marlboro, reflecting the era's branding strategies. The conversation touches on the cultural implications of such partnerships and their impact on audience perceptions.

---

Conclusions and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with reflections on "Always" as a pivotal yet underappreciated entry in Spielberg's filmography. While not devoid of merit, the film serves as an example of the challenges auteurs face when transitioning between genres and the delicate balance between technical mastery and narrative depth.

Griffin encapsulates the sentiment:

"It's sort of, you know, this is one... This movie's 89... And it's less like, big and sweeping than I remember it being."

Lawson agrees, emphasizing that while "Always" doesn't stand out as a classic, it provides valuable insights into Spielberg's creative journey and the complexities of filmmaking.

---

Notable Quotes

• Griffin Newman [00:13]: "I know now that the podcast we hold back is the only pain that follows us here."
• David Sims [01:43]: "I have a weekend, like, quote unquote, Indian group thing where it's all like, George went explaining the principles of the Native Americans and Trevi Chase being asleep."
• Richard Lawson [02:05]: "Just pure hap. Yep."
• Griffin Newman [27:40]: "This movie is forgotten by current generations because it just kind of went over okay and was quickly forgotten."
• David Sims [40:48]: "He gives it a wonderful performance in Jaws, and a wonderful performance in Close Encounters, but it just kind of arrives at its conclusions pretty quickly."

---

Final Remarks

Blank Check with Griffin & David offers a compelling exploration of "Always," shedding light on its place within Spielberg's oeuvre and the broader cinematic landscape of the late 1980s. Through thoughtful analysis and candid conversation, the hosts provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of a film that remains a curious footnote in the careers of its talented cast and its esteemed director.

---

Note: This summary excludes the podcast's advertisements, intros, outros, and other non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussions about the film "Always."

Transcript

[Griffin Newman]

Blank check with Griffin and David.

[David Sims]

Blank check with Griffin and David.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't know what to say or to expect.

[David Sims]

All you need to know is that the name of the shadow is Blackjack.

[Griffin Newman]

I know now that the podcast we hold back is the only pain that follows us here.

[Richard Lawson]

It's a good Dreyfus.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you.

[David Sims]

I was about to say just fucking nailing that Dreyfus.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, that's why I went for that look.

[Richard Lawson]

It was a little more Krippendorf than always. It was a little older.

[David Sims]

How many times will we be saying Krippendorf on this?

[Richard Lawson]

Well, you're doing the whole Jenna Elfman season, right?

[Griffin Newman]

So I talked about this in another episode recently, Richard. I did a triple feature of Disney's Triple Horn. A triple horn. Walt Disney Pictures, 90s culturally problematic comedies.

[Richard Lawson]

Jungle to Jungle, Jungle to Jungle.

[Griffin Newman]

Krippendorf's Tribe and the third one, Heir Up There, man of the House.

[David Sims]

The Heir up there is kind of too culturally sensitive to make this. You know what I mean? Krippendorf's Tribe makes the Heir Up There look like a documentary.

[Richard Lawson]

It's Margaret Mead's the Heir Up There.

[Griffin Newman]

But the sneaky one is man of the House, which is Chevy Chase tries to bond with Jonathan Taylor Thomas, who is the son of Farrah Fawcett.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I have a weekend, like, quote unquote, Indian group thing where it's all like, George went explaining the principles of the Native Americans and Trevi Chase being asleep. But Krippendorf is the peak.

[Richard Lawson]

But speaking of series, it's the peak of American culture.

[David Sims]

Correct.

[Richard Lawson]

Speaking of series, this is the second film in your HAP series, right after Insomnia.

[Griffin Newman]

Correct. Okay, Richard, this is why we bring you on. Look at that. David's threading his fingers together.

[David Sims]

Hap good in the Apprentice last year.

[Griffin Newman]

As Fred Trump Sr. Hap great in the Apprentice.

[David Sims]

Not a obviously big role, like, probably just a few scenes, but he really nailed it.

[Griffin Newman]

I thought classic. I mean, just like killer supporting turn.

[Richard Lawson]

Just pure hap. Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

Happen all over the place. This look, I was a little tempted. Dreyfus is the one I have in the pocket. It was a kind of T ball waiting there for me. But this is a movie where looking at the quotes page, you're like, you got a couple big swings on voices you could do.

[Richard Lawson]

Do you have everyone in this? Do you have a hunter?

[Griffin Newman]

I was trying to. I was. Last night, I was trying to do it a little bit.

[Richard Lawson]

I was like, it's getting there.

[Griffin Newman]

I was trying to parrot it back, but there's Something about her voice transforms within a sentence.

[Richard Lawson]

It does.

[Griffin Newman]

She has this almost Beetlejuice y thing of. She kind of has four voices or Pee Wee Herman. You know, those characters where it's like, sometimes it's this richer, sometimes it's this like. She's like. It's tough to pin down.

[Richard Lawson]

It is. And she's. And she's selectively Southern depending on the movie she's in.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. I think it was in the Piano episode. I talked about how odd it is that that like Oscar winning performance and is so out of step with the rest of her filmography.

[Richard Lawson]

She's like a firecracker. I mean, she's literally in a movie called.

[Griffin Newman]

I think I refer to her as a Texas Firecracker. And then a bunch of our listeners said that she is from Georgia.

[Richard Lawson]

Georgia.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that correct?

[Richard Lawson]

But she was in a movie called Miss Firecracker and then the Texas Cheerleader.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you. I just needed to address that.

[David Sims]

She was.

[Griffin Newman]

Of the two Georgia Peach. She's a Georgia peach.

[Richard Lawson]

Yes. Who used to live in an apartment with Frances McNorband.

[David Sims]

Well, we talked about that fucking apartment.

[Griffin Newman]

But do you know this? Can we litigate this? If you don't know this?

[Richard Lawson]

I probably don't.

[David Sims]

We can briefly litigate this. We obviously.

[Griffin Newman]

There were three people who lived in that apartment.

[Richard Lawson]

Okay. Fran, Holly and Kathy Bates. My goodness.

[David Sims]

And the question we ask and ask, when did this come up?

[Griffin Newman]

I think at the Raimi series must have.

[David Sims]

Cause Raimi was friends with the Coen brothers and all that. Everyone's in that apartment.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the thing. The Raimi's and the Coens all cross pollinate with that apartment.

[David Sims]

Why has Sam Raimi and the Coen brothers never used Kathy Bates if they were like pals with her? Did Kathy Bates leave her hair in.

[Richard Lawson]

The shower like going through him?

[Griffin Newman]

We're like Holly Hunter and Francis McDormand have basically never worked with Kathy Bates.

[David Sims]

Right, right. Is everyone just like, don't let me in the shower?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, what the happened?

[Richard Lawson]

Didn't Holly Hunter play Bill Clinton in Primary Colors though?

[Griffin Newman]

I did not have sexual relations.

[Richard Lawson]

Wow. Right?

[Griffin Newman]

That's the most interesting thing. You're like, Kathy Bates. She must have been in Four Coen Brothers.

[Richard Lawson]

All right. This is a spin off investigative podcast.

[David Sims]

Get Matlock on it. That's not the real Matlock twist for Matlock.

[Griffin Newman]

Were the Raimi brothers and the Coen brothers going over to this apartment and staying up late drinking with Holly Hunter and Frances McDormand and like Kathy Bates comes in with a broom she has a curlers in. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

She's like, I'm doing Night Mother in the morning.

[David Sims]

Will you stop dreaming of criminal schemes for idiots to get involved in in your stupid movies?

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, but what if a guy is really dumb and he has a.

[Richard Lawson]

A lesbian road trip comedy?

[David Sims]

Let's backburner that for 40 years.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Wow. How did we get on this? Oh, Holly Hunter.

[Griffin Newman]

Of course. Holly Hunter.

[David Sims]

Star of Always.

[Griffin Newman]

The star of always.

[David Sims]

What's the podcast?

[Griffin Newman]

The podcast is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

[David Sims]

I'm David.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a podcast about filmographies.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Directors who had massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby.

[David Sims]

Yes. I would argue this is not a bounce, but it's close. Is it's kind of a bounce. Obviously, by his standards, it's a bounce.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

But it's not a 1941 style actual bounce of like, oh, no, you've spent too much money and made not enough. Right. Yes. Like, this is more of a sort of like, well, that kind of got ignored and was a bit of a waste of your time. But it made some money.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. I think 1941 is the only outright calamity.

[David Sims]

Yes. And even 1941 made money. And sure.

[Griffin Newman]

But like, this absolutely came in under its budget and got bad reviews. Right. This movie, 1941 budget, you're saying not under its budget, 1941 made less than its budget or.

[David Sims]

But I'm saying the movie went over budget and then. Of course. Yes, yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I'm like, always in Hook are kind of in a similar zone of, like, it feels like sky high expectations.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

And then people are kind of like. And then Hook has become the most beloved movie of all time.

[David Sims]

And Hook also made lots of money, at least.

[Griffin Newman]

But I sent you guys that 60 minutes clip and we'll talk about when we get to our Hook episode. But I watched, like, you read the press from Hook two weeks in, and people are like, it's doing well, but it's not doing really well.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

The man sets a high bar.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the thing, and I think always was a similar thing where it's like, this didn't lose money, critics weren't, like, savaging it. But it does feel like it is his single most forgotten movie.

[David Sims]

Without, without question.

[Griffin Newman]

And I was doing the ranking on letterboxd and is far and away by some margin his least watched feature film or at least long. Yeah, of course, it feels like the one that people actually just don't know exists.

[David Sims]

Dawson has it hanging in the closet, right?

[Richard Lawson]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Dawson has every Spielberg poster in his room, but always is in the closet.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of a mean joke.

[Richard Lawson]

But the weird thing is, for me, it was one of the few VHS tapes that we owned as a child. Was. I think my mother had seen it and liked it or something. So for me, it was like Spielberg's biggest movie other than Indiana Jones and Jurassic Park.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Do you want to give the bottom five feature just Steven Spielberg movies on letterboxd in terms of, like, vlog?

[Griffin Newman]

I know this because I checked this.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but tell me.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, well, so we're not counting.

[David Sims]

Not counting Twilight Zone and not counting, obviously, any of the TV movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Wicked or something. Okay, so it's Sugarland.

[David Sims]

So always is the least. Then 1941.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, right. Then Sugar Land, then Sugarland, and then the two above that.

[David Sims]

Slightly more surprising, only slightly.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. No, because I know, because I was.

[David Sims]

One, we did a perfect episode on.

[Richard Lawson]

With no notes, Dead, Almost Dead.

[David Sims]

And the other we did a perfect episode on. But some people don't like the episode.

[Richard Lawson]

Because we don't like the movie Almost Dead too.

[Griffin Newman]

People don't like it because it's not the War Horse episode.

[David Sims]

It is the War Horse. Like. Like as much as people generally like that episode of ours because we're having a lot of fun. Some people sort of meekly. I see sometimes being like, I actually like War Horse. And I feel like they're not very nice to it.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, I think I.

[David Sims]

And I think Warhorse has spectacular stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

When I saw War, such as that horse, well, God, if I could get my dick on that horse. That's a callback. That doesn't make sense. If that sounds like I made a huge leap. If you haven't listened to the episode.

[David Sims]

The episode we talk about, everyone's really in love with that horse.

[Griffin Newman]

Feels like the movie is sexualizing the horse.

[Ben Hosley]

All right, let's cut to a montage.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's cut to a montage.

[David Sims]

I think Ben's right. Of, like, us. They really want to. That horse. That great episode.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone in this movie really wants to fuck this horse.

[David Sims]

Even in war, like, we're all gonna want to fuck the same horse.

[Griffin Newman]

You never made a movie where people were trying to cuck a horse.

[David Sims]

It's just hot. It's just like a hot horse.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the human condition.

[David Sims]

You raise it. We want to fuck this fucking horse. This hot horse. What is the deal with the horse?

[Ben Hosley]

Fuckability.

[David Sims]

He wants to fuck the horse. Everyone wants to fuck the horse, right?

[Griffin Newman]

John Ford brings him into his office and he goes, I heard you want to be a picture maker. And he goes, yeah. And he goes, let me ask you a question.

[David Sims]

You want to this horse?

[Griffin Newman]

Would you want to this horse? Ah, yes.

[Ben Hosley]

Now that you have that context.

[Richard Lawson]

Great.

[Griffin Newman]

Let me finish.

[David Sims]

This is a clip show, by the way. Richard, we're not going to get to.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Let's play the clips from all my appearances.

[Griffin Newman]

This is a miniseries on the early works of Steven Spielberg, the first half of his career. We're calling it Podrassic Cast your bottom dollar a lot of notes. This is the first episode I want to say we've recorded since artist work and the title was announced, and people are not happy about it.

[David Sims]

Why not?

[Griffin Newman]

Looks like they're castic pod. They want pod encounters of the closest.

[David Sims]

Can I ask you where are you seeing criticism? Because I'll say the blankie subreddit, honestly, has kind of just become a movie discussion board, which is fine by me.

[Griffin Newman]

Fine by me.

[David Sims]

Like, it's not even. It barely touches on our podcast anymore, which is a. Okay, so where are you even? I'm not. I guess I'm not on Twitter anymore.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben Brantley took us to T. Did.

[Richard Lawson]

You think about cast encounters of the pod kind? Yeah, I thought about all of it.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the thing people don't understand. I think about all of it. There's never one that I'm like, oh, I should have done that. And a big part of the calculation is I just need to say yes. I. I type them out, I write them out. I go, what looks funny? And then I go, let me say it out loud. Yeah. How?

[David Sims]

You're going to have to say it out loud several times.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's like, sometimes there's one that's funny but is actually going to be impossible to pronounce.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I want it to be clunky. I don't want it to be too clean.

[David Sims]

Of course.

[Griffin Newman]

I want that funny bit of tension. Right. But this is Podrasic Cast. A really nice thing to say, just rolls off the top, the first half of Spielberg's career, because two presidential terms ago, we covered the latter half of his career, and now we've circled back in that series. Our guest today covered Saving Private Ryan.

[David Sims]

That's right.

[Griffin Newman]

One of his absolutely most essential films.

[Richard Lawson]

And I believe we recorded that the week after a certain election.

[Griffin Newman]

Who it it? There is a. An upsetting direct mirror on the timelines of these two series. Yep, yep. But. But Today he is returning for one another. One that loomed very large in your life.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, it was before Private Ryan. It was like a big. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

We had another guest booked. A friend of the show who will have on for something else. A friend of all of ours. We're excited to have on Katie Rich.

[David Sims]

You can just say it.

[Griffin Newman]

And we were just sort of like. We should just have Katie do always. Right? I don't think anyone cares that much about always. Katie will probably be a good guest for always. And then we booked it and then you texted me and we're like, who's doing always? Always is really important to me. And I said, katie. And you went, that'll be great. That'll be great.

[Richard Lawson]

No, I support Katie being on this episode. So goodbye, Katie's New York trip.

[Griffin Newman]

Plans change.

[Richard Lawson]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Window, the Golden Globes.

[Griffin Newman]

You get to mount the case for always. Richard Lawson of Fair Little Gold Man.

[Richard Lawson]

Thank you for having me.

[Griffin Newman]

12 timer.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, I think it's more than that here. But 10 years for you guys.

[Griffin Newman]

A decade of dreams. That's the big decade of dreams. Saving Private Ryan. Lady in the Water. Big guys.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

All right, Wait a second. You're. You're.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm not going in order.

[Richard Lawson]

K19, the Widowmaker. Everyone favorites.

[David Sims]

I'll go in order. Lady in the Water, Vanilla Scar.

[Griffin Newman]

Vanilla Scurr.

[David Sims]

Shirving Pervert Worms. Totally forgot that you were on the K19 the Widowmaker episode. Probably because my brain has erased that trauma. Not of your part.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember why you claimed that episode.

[Richard Lawson]

Why did I.

[Griffin Newman]

A lot of my boys in it.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, that's right. That's right. My boys project.

[David Sims]

You love the Fatherland.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Sprengers.

[Griffin Newman]

Sprenge.

[David Sims]

Hermur.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Big eyes, as you say. So that's seven. We're at seven there. One, two, three. Philadelphia.

[Griffin Newman]

Philadelphia.

[David Sims]

Oh, another one. My brain has erased the witches. Robert Zemeckis is the witches.

[Richard Lawson]

That was Richard's drinking during this recording episode.

[Griffin Newman]

We were all drinking during that recording. That might be the single least existent movie we have covered on Truly.

[David Sims]

He made Pinocchio as a challenge. But it could not exist less than the witches. It still exists slightly more than the witches. He was trying to get below the witches and he couldn't.

[Griffin Newman]

Martin Breast's AFI projects exist more like. Like the early ones that are lesser seen. At least they have. Like the historical.

[David Sims]

I just took is a war scene movie that Robert Zemeckis is the Witches with fucking Anne Hathaway. The purr of the dirg.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, right. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Oh, Spurdaker.

[Richard Lawson]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

The curious case of Benjamin Burton. And we met him, we loved him.

[Griffin Newman]

Black. Mr. Black.

[David Sims]

Mr. Joe.

[Griffin Newman]

Mr. Joe Black.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So is this 13?

[David Sims]

I think it's 14, isn't it?

[Richard Lawson]

That's amazing.

[Griffin Newman]

A Lawson's Dozen.

[Richard Lawson]

That's more than one year.

[David Sims]

This is the 14th. And of course, let's never forget that on our Patreon, you did experience.

[Griffin Newman]

You experienced the Trolls.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Or you experienced the Trolls.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. I welcomed you into my world.

[David Sims]

How many trolls have there been at this point? I know you completely lost control of.

[Richard Lawson]

Your trolls long ago, but they unionized and it was a disaster.

[David Sims]

Tried to crush them.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So World Tour and then they banded together.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Not sure that I saw a band together. I did see World Tour.

[Griffin Newman]

Band Together came out last year. Kind of underperformed.

[Richard Lawson]

I reviewed World Tour because that was like at the start of the pandemic. And I was like, we have to. I have to find something to write about.

[Griffin Newman]

World Tour was the first studio movie that had not gone to theaters that announced $25 iTunes rent.

[Richard Lawson]

That's right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like it was the canary in the coal miner. Does this work?

[David Sims]

Right. The answer was not really, but sort of.

[Griffin Newman]

Sort of.

[David Sims]

Right, right. But I remember World Tour being like a huge step. Trolls1. But I did not see Trolls. I already forgot that name. Band Together.

[Griffin Newman]

We have a lot to talk about today, but I just want to say that I need to complain about this and this is why I refuse to see Band Together at a protest. Yeah. The big thing was Justin Timberlake plays a fucking grump, Branch in those movies. Branch, Yeah, I know his. The character's name is Branch. I'm saying he's a grump. He's playing against Timberlake. Tag.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

I think I've talked about the experience where my therapist related my own psychology.

[David Sims]

Your outlook to Branches.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, sure.

[David Sims]

Said you needed some poppy in your life.

[Griffin Newman]

She said it's just because my kids have been watching it a lot. But I'm hearing what you're saying and it's reminding me a lot of Justin Timberlake's character and Trolls. I went, yes, Branch, I know what his name is.

[Richard Lawson]

That would be a gut punch if my therapist said that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And David's ten point joke in response that was, you need to stop going to Lights Camera Jackson for therapy.

[Richard Lawson]

I mean, the drive to Albany alone.

[David Sims]

Doctor, doctor, give me the news.

[Griffin Newman]

But he's a sourpuss grump.

[Richard Lawson]

Right, right.

[David Sims]

He's got a bad case of.

[Griffin Newman]

It's kind of Timberlake playing against type.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And the hook to Band Together was we're going to do a meta commentary on Timberlake's boy band Pass. You're going to find out that he was a member of a Trolls boy band with his brothers. And the big announcement was NSYNC is reuniting for this. NSync is recording five new songs for the Trolls band Together.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Soundtrack. They're going to do live performances. NSync is back. David, what are you looking at?

[David Sims]

I'm just looking. So NSync kind of passed me by slightly. I was like a little too old for NSync, right. By then it was. I was a more poppy poptimistic kid than some. The teen than some. Right. But I didn't really know NSync that well. Chris Kirkpatrick. The fuck is going on?

[Richard Lawson]

There's a general look.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It's usually you see their look and you're like, I can see what the idea was here, right.

[Richard Lawson]

If I can be mean, sort of is that that was the interesting innovation of One Direction, which was like, oh, all five are cute, right? Yeah.

[David Sims]

Because it used to always be like, two are cute one's. Okay.

[Richard Lawson]

One is adjusted in an interesting way.

[David Sims]

The other one does not exist.

[Ben Hosley]

Well, there's an old one.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, there's an old one.

[David Sims]

And just that thing where it felt like they were like, we saw 80,000 people to be in this band and we ran out of good ones after three.

[Griffin Newman]

This was like the together thing of, like, what the formulation is of the weird balance of the thing, you know.

[David Sims]

Like, I mean, because like the better man read the Robby Ruler by a pick. Like, doesn't really touch on. Take that. You know, lower members, no offense to them.

[Griffin Newman]

Are they depicted at all? Take that as a huge human animals.

[David Sims]

As humans, of course. Only Robbie is a chimpanzee.

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of offensive to the other members of.

[David Sims]

But like, Gary Barlow is obviously the main part of the. Have you seen Better Man?

[Richard Lawson]

No, I've not actually.

[David Sims]

Great movie.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Gary Barlow was the head. The front man for. And Robbie was kind of the cute one off to the side. Okay. There's another cute one and then there's the two other ones. Now, no offense to the fans of the two other ones, but it's true. Like, they would always just kind of have like two spare guys.

[Griffin Newman]

I feel like the 90s version of that.

[David Sims]

Was Chris Kirkpatrick sing. Was he? Because it would turn out the kind of nothing one was a good.

[Richard Lawson]

It is my understanding that he was really instrumental in, like, bringing the group together. And like, he kind of like, yeah, yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

I think it was how he could wear dreadlocks.

[Richard Lawson]

Right, right.

[Ben Hosley]

I think that's really.

[David Sims]

Which he didn't initially. But then he, he brings those out.

[Ben Hosley]

He brings them.

[David Sims]

He also had a dreadlock.

[Griffin Newman]

I was gonna say, needed one guy who was sort of like a weird alt subculture.

[Richard Lawson]

He was the AJ McLean from Backstreet Boys of Insane.

[David Sims]

But then in Britain you would have Boyzone or Westlife or whatever. It was truly just like, it looked like they just cloned people.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like it's just all kind of like.

[Richard Lawson]

Blonde action figure with spiky gel.

[Griffin Newman]

And I was, I would argue that was part of what didn't make them stick.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Because you need some spice or something.

[Griffin Newman]

And I also think having the weirdos would make the, the Nick Carter or the Justin Timberlake pop a little more.

[David Sims]

But was it really tough to be like, I'm an 11 year old girl and I love NSync and I'm one of the 1% that's like, Chris, I'm.

[Richard Lawson]

I, I, I was always fascinated because my, my sister, you know, well, I was into the bands too, but like, her friends, they would talk about it and one of her friends was like, of the Backstreet Boys. She's like, no, I'm a Kevin Richardson girl. And it was like, whoa.

[Griffin Newman]

Kevin was like the Christian. He's the one who kind of brought them together and held them together. So my Jamesy, my little brother Jamesy Newman was a big Backstreet Boys guy and I think had like the posters on his wall and was watching them. We were a Backstreet Boys household. Right.

[David Sims]

But, but like a Pepsi family. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

The videos would be on the TV or James would be like, you know, having a poster. My dad would just walk by and look at AJ and go, that guy's such a grease ball. Never not comment on it. Goes. What is up with this guy?

[Richard Lawson]

In my house? We drank RC Cola and listened to O Town. Okay. That was right.

[Griffin Newman]

We were Ginger ale and Backstreet Boys, Canada Dry and Backstreet Boys.

[David Sims]

How did we get on? Oh, because you're talking about trolls.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, because Holly Hunter was originally. She worked with Lou Perlman in Orlando.

[Griffin Newman]

How did we even get on the fucking troll? Oh, we're count down your episodes.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This is episode on Always.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

This is the episode on Steven Spielberg's 1989 romantic fantasy pseudo remake Always.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Which starred Richard Dreyfus, Holly Hunter, John Goodman on the poster. Although, you know, kind of not, not a big character in a weird way.

[Griffin Newman]

To the Movie pin in that. We're gonna talk about it. I have a lot of things to.

[David Sims]

Say about everyone's favorite movie star, Brad Johnson.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben. So I assume you weren't doing any kind of ancillary digging or checking of the dossier and that this was your first time seeing him. That actor.

[David Sims]

We watched the movie always, I assume.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Brad Johnson. That's his name. Right.

[David Sims]

Brad Johnson, who plays the, you know, the new love interest after Dreyfus.

[Ben Hosley]

So this kind of the himbo right there you go.

[Griffin Newman]

To your awareness. This is the first time you've ever seen this guy, right?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

If you had to guess, and I told you this was his first movie. How do you think he was discovered?

[David Sims]

What do you think he did before? They were like, hey, should you try acting like, in a movie?

[Griffin Newman]

Acting?

[Ben Hosley]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

This isn't like a setup for a bit. I just think you might get this right.

[Ben Hosley]

Chippendales.

[David Sims]

You're close. He was a literal Marlboro Man. Like an actual.

[Griffin Newman]

Like he was.

[David Sims]

Put the hat on this, he was gonna sell some cigarettes.

[Griffin Newman]

He was a rodeo performer who then was spotted.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And became the Marlboro man for a chunk of years.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, was one of many Marlboro Men, but had it well, because that.

[David Sims]

Was like being Lara Croft.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, Donald.

[David Sims]

Right. It would cycle. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But he was a Marlboro Man. And then it led to a straight to video horror movie.

[Richard Lawson]

And then this and all the marble men. They lived in an apartment complex together. They had fun. They would have adventures.

[David Sims]

They would do last year. Competitions.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. They were dating and it was fun.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's the weird, like, it is a part of this movie. I'd never seen this film before. It's a part of this movie.

[David Sims]

Oh, you've never seen it?

[Griffin Newman]

I'd never seen it before. It's a part of this movie's legacy that always fascinated me was like, part of the framing of this movie was like, we're introducing a new movie star. Spielberg has found a guy and there's like a lot of people magazine press of like, the costars talking up like, this guy's got a huge career.

[Richard Lawson]

We're going to have him do impressions. Like, we're going to show a range of talent.

[Griffin Newman]

We're like, crafting the role around this guy's innate sort of like, charisma.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he does, like a couple other movies and some tv.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I mean, he worked. I think he mostly was in kind of, you know, straight to video kind of stuff eventually.

[Griffin Newman]

And then became a real estate Agent and died of COVID He did die.

[David Sims]

He did die from complications from COVID.

[Richard Lawson]

And the real estate he worked in was specifically ranted much real estate.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

So he went back to the Marlboro roots.

[David Sims]

Marlboro man is one of those things that I will like, explain to my kids and they will be like, the. Are you talking about where I'm like. So cigarettes started to get filtered right now?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Okay. I mean, if cigarettes are even still legal at this point, like, you might.

[Richard Lawson]

As well wheel a penny farthing bicycle into the living room.

[David Sims]

And people thought filtered cigarettes were feminine. So Marlboro came up with this brilliant idea of like, what if a cowboy was like so good and it was the most brilliant advertising campaign anyone ever heard of that cowboys smoke this. Like, that's all Marlboro man is.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, well, yeah, because you know what the rival campaign was? That penis face. Camel had like billiards holes.

[David Sims]

It's just so funny how came in.

[Griffin Newman]

And was like, what if it's a handsome dude? They were like, yeah, that might push.

[David Sims]

Obviously it's what madman, you know, the pilot is about. But like, you know, like, right. That all these companies are like, we all make the same basic thing. Which is a deadly product that you're addicted to.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

How do we find an angle on selling this to people? Just eight different companies would just like, yeah, you should have a Camel.

[Richard Lawson]

Newport's had the market cornered on people smiling while playing tennis. That was their marketing. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

God, it's so fucking weird. Anyway, we were a Marlboro household, so I was very acquainted with the marble man. And I had lots of Sports Illustrated and he was Marvel man. Was always in those.

[Griffin Newman]

Was your dad collecting the points?

[David Sims]

Was a whole fucking moral dilemma for my mom because we would get free shit.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. What kind of stuff?

[David Sims]

I remember I had a sleeping bag. I would take that thing to kids houses, right. For sleepovers and shit. The fucking Marlboro Loco on it.

[Griffin Newman]

I will say this in all honesty.

[David Sims]

Sleeping probably looked like a lit cigarette.

[Richard Lawson]

It was full of cigarettes when it arrived at the house.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember going to friend's house with parents who smoked heavily and would have the catalog and I'd look through it, maybe surprised to hear this. I like stuff to be clear.

[David Sims]

For people who don't know, you would like send in box Marlboro Miles.

[Richard Lawson]

Marlboro Miles.

[David Sims]

And you would get points and you could get free out of a catalog.

[Richard Lawson]

And you could go to the Marble.

[David Sims]

Two packs a day.

[Griffin Newman]

It was an expansive catalog that contained almost every type of Product you could imagine branded with Marlboro. And it was like as you said, from like an ashtray to like a fucking motorcycle.

[David Sims]

I think truly save up and buy a private island or something.

[Griffin Newman]

And as a kid who loved catalogs, I'd like leaf through them at parents friend's house and be like, God, I wish my parents were chainsaw.

[Richard Lawson]

If you saved enough of them, you could get a part in the movie. Always.

[Griffin Newman]

You couldn't.

[David Sims]

Always. Spielberg's like, I'll cast you. I mean it was. No, I think I've said this to you guys before off mic probably. But right. My mom would. We would go through duty free when we started living in England and then we would travel to America, you know, and in duty free you could buy cigarettes so so much cheaper because they were tax free. And the cigarettes are taxed up the ass as they should be.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And like walking out with long boxes.

[David Sims]

My mom would walk out with like right, 20 cartons of Marlboros. And my mother never smoked a cigarette in her damn life or whatever. Barely ever did. And she would just. It was this. He's gonna. Your dad's gonna buy the cigarettes. Do we save hundreds, thousands of dollars right now and indulge his deadly habit or do we not and in the.

[Griffin Newman]

Process also get some fucking box tops.

[David Sims]

Get a sleeping bag. Is so, it's so evil. This is what I'm saying. My kids are going to be like, what are you talking about? Like, how is any of this allowed?

[Griffin Newman]

But that's like part of this cultural moment where like Spielberg's casting director sees a Marlboro ad and is like, what about this guy? And this is a movie where it's like, I feel like at one point he tried for years to get Tom Cruise to play.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Yes. Cruise was the. We'll, we'll dig into the job.

[Griffin Newman]

Such a big move for like Spielberg to be like, you know what?

[David Sims]

I'm anointing a face here.

[Griffin Newman]

And we talk about in our later Spielberg series and when we've had to come back to him in like new release movies that it feels like from the 2000s on, Spielberg really kind of kept whiffing on picking new leading men.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

He kept on trying to like identify people. None of whom had as little background as Brad Johnson. I think you're Jeremy Irvines.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

You're Eric Banas.

[Griffin Newman]

You're Eric Banas.

[Richard Lawson]

Which was a little, that was a little different.

[David Sims]

Eric Bana kind of almost got there not just through Spielberg.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's even more. The younger dude, the. The Ty Sheridans, where I. I like Sheridans.

[Richard Lawson]

Were.

[David Sims]

He's still around a lot.

[Richard Lawson]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Yeah. He's not a bad actor, but that.

[Griffin Newman]

Was sort of framed as the moment of, like, Spielberg's about to elevate him.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And in fact, it caused him to go, like, I gotta go back to smaller stuff.

[Richard Lawson]

What is the. The Belgian actor? 10. 10. What has he been in the Boy Reporter? Yeah.

[David Sims]

Well, he's currently on assignment. There's a big asteroid with a mushroom on it.

[Richard Lawson]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

His best pick in the 2000s was Shia. And then Shia, like, attacked him. Like, basically, Shia went darling bit back at him.

[David Sims]

I mean, honestly, his best find of late is. Well, Gabriel Lebel is a great.

[Griffin Newman]

We talked about this in the Fable Names.

[David Sims]

Rachel. I mean, friend of the show Rachel. Like, that's a true. Like, I found someone out at.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I'm talking about the male leads.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Were the thing that he was kind of struggling.

[David Sims]

Found this rando that Ben's friends with called Dan for Lincoln.

[Richard Lawson]

I don't know Dan.

[David Sims]

L. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I'll say. We.

[Ben Hosley]

I think Dan did a good job.

[Griffin Newman]

We were all at the New York Film Critic Circle. Stuck with you. We were all just at the New York Film Critic Circle dinner where David put together a very nice evening.

[David Sims]

I had. I did.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, it went fine as this year's chair.

[David Sims]

I was this year's chair.

[Griffin Newman]

And the final award was Best film for the Brutalist.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And it was presented by Robert Pattinson.

[David Sims]

Our Pats.

[Griffin Newman]

And we were sitting very close.

[David Sims]

Yeah. You guys had the best seat in the house.

[Griffin Newman]

We were about two feet away, and Ben just turns to me and goes, bob looks great.

[David Sims]

He did. I will say this, Bob, he was.

[Ben Hosley]

Wearing a really, like, nice suit.

[David Sims]

His suit was out of control.

[Griffin Newman]

The ankles on the guy. Oh.

[David Sims]

I mean, if I can briefly rant about.

[Ben Hosley]

I got a perspective on him too. I mean, we both did. Where you could just see how pronounced his jawline was. Like, we were seeing his profile.

[David Sims]

It was crazy. I've interviewed Robert Pattinson when he's in, you know, cash clothes.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

And even then, obviously, he's incredibly handsome and charming. And, you know, you. You get, you know, know, a. A star vibe. Him walking into that room, the critic circle, where there's lots of famous actors and Hollywood people and such. And he walks in there in that per. Where you're like, this is another level of, like, people paying attention to what he wears and how he dresses and what his hair looks like and just his inherent quality. He had, like, an he's a. A list movie star.

[Griffin Newman]

He had an Elvis entrance too. That was the other thing.

[David Sims]

He came in from the back there was, if I can reveal, I guess off. You know, I was telling Richard this already. He was supposed to come at 10. He was our big get, you know. And he's like, I'm gonna drop in. I'll just drop in to present. And we're like, well, it's the last award of the night. We'll ballpark around 10 o'clock, show up, the ceremony starts. And I immediately am like, oh shit. Like, we're running fast. No one's rambling. No one's like, yeah, whatever. Like whatever we budgeted for in terms of like eh, one thing will go long or one thing. I realize I'm not rambling. Some I think hosts ramble more than I do. I'm kind of just like, and now we're onto this award. And now we're onto this. You know, like I'm not like there's.

[Griffin Newman]

A few to each other and said you were. Your hosting had the energy of you trying to in real time edit JJ's dossier.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

This is what David's introductions felt like. The movie was made for 5 million bucks. It came out, got decent reviews. So anyway, let's talk about it.

[David Sims]

I had to bring people on. There's a lot of awards and then you start. So there was a frantic behind the scenes, like we need to rush Pattinson to like, you know, he needs to get here a half hour earlier. And he did, God bless him.

[Griffin Newman]

But, but here's a point. It is fascinating that like Spielberg has identified there, there are your, your zeglers. Right. But I feel like especially with male stars, it's tough. He has broken very few people in a way that's kind of interesting. And in the 2000s he started having more roles that felt like this is an opportunity for a young guy to pop even like Justin Chat. When War of the Worlds is another one. We talk and you look at like he was not like pinning Pattinson, Harris Dickinson, you know, Jacob Elordi. Like I, I mean, I'm saying the guys who did end up getting the right parts that made them. Spielberg is in theory a guy who should be able to just like put the scepter on someone's head.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And have everyone just accept that they're real.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And the, the Brad Johnson thing is just kind of fascinating because this movie is sort of built around like we, we had caught lightning in a bottle. We found this guy. You've Never seen before.

[Richard Lawson]

He is supposed to like bowl you over like totally with his child poster.

[Griffin Newman]

With like three like very familiar faces to American audiences. The movie's like secret is all this kind of guy. David, you hear that?

[David Sims]

It's a boinging noise.

[Griffin Newman]

Nope, that's a spring. Because spring has sprung true. Spring movie preview.

[David Sims]

David, what do we got? We got some great stuff coming.

[Griffin Newman]

Films coming to Regal theaters that we want to direct our listeners towards.

[David Sims]

Minecraft.

[Griffin Newman]

Sign up for Regal Unlimited and go see the Minecraft movie. Excuse me, A Minecraft movie?

[David Sims]

Ah, just the one, I think.

[Griffin Newman]

An interesting titling structure on that one. Do you know that film is directed by Jared Hess? Isn't that bizarre? Sure.

[David Sims]

You're more struck by this than I.

[Griffin Newman]

I think we should all be talking about this. I think this should be front page news.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but you've also got, I mean it's drop getting great reactions out of south by Southwest fun horror movies. Yeah, exactly. You've got Alex Garland's Warfare.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. Have you seen that?

[David Sims]

Well, I'm not sure I can talk about it.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, well, interesting.

[David Sims]

You've got the new Jean Colette Sarah movie. The Woman in the Yard is coming in late March.

[Griffin Newman]

Very excited for that. Written by Sam Stefanik. Yes, the Amateur, a high concept Rami Malek thriller that seems to have the premise what if Griffin Newman in action.

[David Sims]

Movie, you know, and that's directed by the guy who did One Life. It's really interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

Really?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Interesting. We got Sinners coming.

[David Sims]

Ah, I'm so pumped for Sinners.

[Griffin Newman]

And Jordan are back.

[David Sims]

Yes. That's actually really gonna rock. And of course friend of the show.

[Griffin Newman]

Bone Yang in the Wedding Banquet, a remake of a film we've covered on this show. Written, co written and starring a past and future guest. The accountant too. This is spring. You're boing everywhere.

[David Sims]

Spring is for real.

[Griffin Newman]

Spring is for real.

[David Sims]

So. Well, why are we talking about it?

[Griffin Newman]

Because of Regal. Because this is a perfect opportunity to sign up for Regal Unlimited.

[David Sims]

What's awesome about all this is that there's lots of interesting different kinds of movies in theaters that you can go see.

[Griffin Newman]

And with Regal Unlimited, the whole point is you sign up and seeing 3,4556 of those movies is easy and affordable.

[David Sims]

Sign up now in the Regal app.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Or at the link in the description in our show notes and use code blank check to get 20 off your three month subscription. And then you're gonna be in the Crown Club. You're gonna get rewards, you're gonna build.

[Griffin Newman]

Up points and get free popcorns. And sodas.

[David Sims]

25% off candy on Tuesdays, 50 off popcorn. Discounted ticket.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, Sound club website. And as I said, it's a little deep. It's a little buried in here. There is a section where you can redeem your points for old promotional movie memorabilia. Like Red one socks.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Follow the link in the show notes, go to the Regal app, click on the unlimited banner, and then follow the instructions to sign up and enter promo code. Blank check when prompted to receive your discount. And look, I'm just gonna say it again, David. Signing up for Regal Unlimited or maybe gifting a membership to a moviegoer in your life life.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Great way to support the show. This is. This is a dream advertiser.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

A dream partner for us. We want to keep this going. We think it could benefit everybody, especially the movies.

[David Sims]

All right, look, so you'd never seen all this.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

Ben, you'd never seen this movie, right? You weren't a big always guy. You had seen Always because you owned it.

[Richard Lawson]

Dozens.

[David Sims]

I was a never guy guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah, it's good. Five comedy points.

[David Sims]

Have you seen Blockbuster is like, how about always? You're like, how about never Ceiling.

[Griffin Newman]

And then Ben would have to go to a different Blockbuster to be able to make the joke again without it.

[David Sims]

This guy recommends always to me. Why would he do that? You know what? He likes that movie. I just hope he does.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben would go in and be like, I'm looking for a movie that's like. Like ghost about, like firefighters.

[Ben Hosley]

It's like ghost cucking kind of. I guess you don't know what the word cuck means yet, but you'll find out.

[David Sims]

Did you guys like the movie? Clearly Richard had some fondness for the movie as a youngster, I think.

[Richard Lawson]

So as of this recording, I've been working on something for work where I'm ranking all of Spielberg's films. So I've been watching every single one of his films in chronological order. I did not do that with Always. I kind of skipped past it because I wanted to save it for this. But a lot of movies are just totally different through the lens of Fabelman's. Now a lot of his earlier stuff. In a kind of profoundly strange way.

[Griffin Newman]

It'S been really interesting for us waiting this long to do the first half of his career and being able to do it with the Fableman.

[Richard Lawson]

That's what it was all about.

[Griffin Newman]

It changes every single movie, I would.

[Richard Lawson]

Argue, except this one.

[Griffin Newman]

Interesting.

[Richard Lawson]

This one feels like it's other. Its own little side thing that was just Sprouted from a conversation or conversations with Richard Dreyfus. It is less, like, big and sweeping than I remember it being. It just. It really does feel like a kind of like one for me. Little project that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I like this movie quite a bit. Half of it, I was like, do I love this?

[Richard Lawson]

That's the thing. I don't think it starts really well.

[Griffin Newman]

It makes any major mistakes.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. But just kind of.

[Griffin Newman]

Just kind of peter out.

[Richard Lawson]

It's a lot faster than I remembered it being. Like, it just kind of arrives at its conclusions pretty quickly, which I think.

[Griffin Newman]

It takes a lot of time setting up its dynamics. Like, Dreyfus doesn't die. Spoiler. Until like, 30 plus minutes into the movie in a way that you feel like other movies would do that five, ten minutes in. And I was, like, getting excited by how deliberate the table setting was and feeling like this is really drilling into these characters. And then the second half, it moves really fast and just felt like it lost a little of that sensitivity. Here's what I want to say about it not changing with the context and the Goodman point. I was making earlier. Have always been fascinated by this as the attempted launching of the Brad Johnson thing. Right. But I always was just like, yeah, it's a remake of, like, A Guy Called Joe. I've never seen that. I know it's about, like, ghosts and planes and a love triangle and whatever. I just always assumed from the poster.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, right, of course. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I was like, and Brad Johnson, I guess, must be some, like, hunky romantic rival. But I thought this movie about getting.

[David Sims]

Hunter and Goodman together. Hng.

[Griffin Newman]

I thought it was Ghost Town. I thought it was Dreyfus and Goodman are best friends. Dreyfus dies. Dreyfus is leading Goodman to romance his wife.

[David Sims]

Right. Instead, it's just kind of ghost Drey going like, hey, hey.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Hey, Hunter, come on, come on, come on. Listen to me, listen to me. Like, oh, like, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

At one.

[Richard Lawson]

Point talking to the guy, the neighbor guy from Home Alone.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. Robert sp, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Who I think he says, what? Hermits are like a radio to the.

[Richard Lawson]

Who knows what crazy old hobos. He's just. I think he calls them crazy old hobos.

[Griffin Newman]

Crazy old hobos. But I'm watching this. I'm like, I can't wait for Holly Hunter and John Goodman to fall in love. And I think I thought, like, Brad Johnson was the sort of, like, Rick Rossovich in the.

[David Sims]

Yeah. They're like, replacement. We don't like this guy. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

She's attracted to this hunky Guy and Dreyfus is like, now that's just my fault for letting that narrative go in my head.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But I'm watching and I'm like, if this were that movie and that's what happened in the second half, I'd be like, go into the mat for this so fucking well.

[David Sims]

And I think the bro code would bar Goodman from.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, but, But Bro code was not installed until 1990.

[David Sims]

Yes. So it was H. W. Bush brought that.

[Richard Lawson]

Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what? Bro code also didn't bar Spielberg's family Fablemancing out of control. Like that's the other part of it is I'm watching this being like, oh, the interesting fableman's context of this is gonna be a dude convincing his best friend to fall in love with his Spielberg's love.

[David Sims]

On the Oscar press store for the fables, he's like, well, the thing that happened is my dad's best friend broke the broco. That's why I made this movie. I needed to take him to town. Has the bro code was violated?

[Griffin Newman]

What if the films had been called bro code, do you think it would have made more?

[David Sims]

Yeah, of course.

[Griffin Newman]

If the poster was it was like it was called with his hands like this and Seth Rogan with like a.

[Richard Lawson]

An X through him with Michelle Williams and the monkey poking out, you know, from diagonally from from behind. Yes.

[David Sims]

And Gabriel has like binoculars. Oh, this sounds great.

[Griffin Newman]

From the dudes who brought you always.

[David Sims]

He's cooking his Him.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. I think the problem with the second half in in terms of that Griffin is that the movie so well establishes the rapport between this couple and their friend. You see them in moments of suspense, moments of pleasure and joy, a fight, you know, about something substantial. You really get to know these people and their dynamic. And then he dies. And then this other guy comes in and you're like, wait, but who's that like?

[Griffin Newman]

And I kind of like in the abstract, this thing of him being like, I saw a woman one moment a year ago.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. That echoes the way that Dris felt about her.

[Griffin Newman]

But I agree with you. That is the exact structural problem with the movie. Have none of us seen the original?

[Richard Lawson]

I have.

[David Sims]

No, I, I, I haven't. I want to. Ben, what did you think of Always? Yeah. All right. So I think Ben and I are a little more aligned because it sounds.

[Griffin Newman]

Like you're just out on it.

[David Sims]

I don't like always. I've seen it a couple times and I think I have never liked always I.

[Griffin Newman]

You always dislike it.

[David Sims]

I have a huge problem with Always. And I think. I think a huge problem I'm discovering in my interesting. I don't like Richard Dreyfus. I think he's an annoying little rat man. Like his fucking face.

[Griffin Newman]

Because I feel like he's one of the most beloved people in the world. It only grows.

[David Sims]

I've ranted on this podcast a bunch about Mr. Holland's opus, which I think is like one of the most demented, quietly demented movies ever made, because it's like an inspirational drama about a teacher, but it's basically two and a half hours of this asshole yelling at everyone. And then at the end, he's like, my opus. And they play it, and it's drivel.

[Griffin Newman]

This is obviously. This is the third Dreyfus movie we're covering in this series, of course, but this is the one.

[David Sims]

And I think he gives it a wonderful performance in Jaws, obviously, and a wonderful performance in closing, and a wonderful and although very nervy and kind of frightening kind of performance. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

But it. It just. I think this is the episode where we really have to unpack the Dreyfus thing. Not that we haven't been talking about him. That is totally valid. And I feel like the reviews I read of the movie at the time were just like, I don't want to watch Richard Dreyfus as a romantic lead.

[Richard Lawson]

Not really.

[Griffin Newman]

What?

[David Sims]

Not really.

[Griffin Newman]

I kind of like about the movie and driving.

[David Sims]

He's sort of a pseudo romantic lead because he's. He starts out as a romantic lead and agree.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is what kind of works for me.

[David Sims]

Sure. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I also think this movie's take is very similar to your take where it's like, this guy sucks.

[David Sims]

Does the movie have that guy, like.

[Griffin Newman]

An annoying, arrogant piece of shit? Like, this feels like the movie where Dreyfus is kind of, whether consciously or not, owning the exact thing that had, like, turned the American audience off of him at this point in time. It is fascinating that this movie's 89.

[David Sims]

This movie is 1989.

[Griffin Newman]

So 75 is Jaws. 77 is Close Encounters. 79. He's the youngest man to win best actor.

[David Sims]

77. He's the youngest man to win. It was goodbye.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, you're right. You're right.

[Richard Lawson]

Right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

This is a little over a decade later. And he's 80s.

[David Sims]

Just to, you know, down and out in Beverly Hills, Tin man nuts. Like, there are movies, but it's not.

[Griffin Newman]

Here's my point. Bruce Valanch did a very good episode of wtf, and he was talking about his history with Bette Midler. And how when Eisner started Touchstone Pictures and were like, disney, we're gonna make movies for grownups. Their big thing was, let's find a bunch of dinged stars and get them in overall deals. Let's get, like, Mazursky, who the other studios have kind of gotten bored with, but is, like a solid, steady hand, great with actors. Right. And their big thing was, like, Five Picture Deal. Bette Midler, Five Picture Deal. Richard Dreyfuss. These are people who have, like, Oscars or nominations, but the public tired of.

[David Sims]

Right, yeah, right.

[Griffin Newman]

And like, bring them back. And he was like, down on Beverly Hills was basically designed as four people who couldn't get arrested.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

In a movie that was just gonna work.

[David Sims]

Justin Midler, Dreyfus, and of course, Little Richard.

[Griffin Newman]

I was gonna say Missouri. Little Richard was popping at that point. But then I looked at it and I'm like, the space between Goodbye Girl and Down and out in Beverly Hills is kind of fascinating. After down and out, he has a run of, like, mostly touched on movies. Stakeout and Moon Over Parador and whatever. And these movies that are, like, solid hits are, like, reasonable hits.

[David Sims]

The thing with Stakeout is that's the movie. That's the star vehicle for Richard Dreyfus, where he plays.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the correct one.

[David Sims]

Kind of a creep, kind of an annoying guy, like. And always is the wrong kind of role for him. But anyway, yes, I think the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Is hinged on his arrogance. And when I heard this Valanch statement, I was kind of digging into it where he was just like, dreyfus just couldn't get hired for anything. Studios just didn't want to fucking deal with him. And I was like, that timeline is so tight to him. Winning Best actor. How to go that wrong that quickly? You look at the actual movies, they're not movies that have really lasted. But none of them were like Calamities when they came out.

[David Sims]

I can tell you what they were.

[Griffin Newman]

Give me the wrong.

[David Sims]

1978, he was in a political comedy thriller called the Big Fix, in which he played a police detective. Good name. Moses Wine, which was. Yeah. A small hit.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

In 1980, he's in a movie called the Competition, a Joel Oleansky movie with Amy Irving.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

It's like a sort of serious movie about a piano player gets a couple below the line Oscar noms. In 81, he does whose Life Is It Anyway? Which is obviously a big stage play that I assume makes no sense as a movie, because that's very much a stage play.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. It's a hospital bed.

[David Sims]

Yeah, exactly. So I assume that's an Oscar play that just doesn't work because nobody remembers that movie. Then he's not in a movie for three years. In 84, he's in a movie called the Buddy System with Susan Sarandon, Nancy Allen and Jean Stapleton. It's about a single mom who forms an unlikely friendship with a school security guard. Do you know this movie?

[Richard Lawson]

Nope.

[David Sims]

That's it, then. Down and out in Beverly Hills.

[Griffin Newman]

So that run you just listed is what comes directly off the heels of this guy being the lead or one of the three leads of three of the highest grossing movies of all time.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

In the span of seven years, saying.

[David Sims]

American Graffiti, of course. Along with Jaws.

[Griffin Newman]

Jaws and Close Encounters.

[David Sims]

And then wins an Oscar for Goodbye.

[Griffin Newman]

And then wins an Oscar. And then immediately he's in the zone of like, none of these are, like, calamities. None of these are, like, embarrassments. A lot of them are small hits and get kind of middling reviews or whatever. And then I was digging in interviews with Richard Rafus. Famously normal and chill things to read. And he was just like, I. Everyone just hated me. Like, he owns it. Where he was just like, I was out of my mind on coke. I was a fucking nightmare, and everyone was annoyed by me.

[David Sims]

Jeez, he's annoying. So imagine him on coke.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? But, like, by the time you're in this sort of like, 80s comeback period, what he's trying to claw back from is understand it that everyone in Hollywood is like, it's not worth it to work with Richard Dreyfuss. Right? And the American public is like, jesus, this guy's a lot. Like the public had turned on him. Not even because he played people who.

[David Sims]

Are kind of a lot. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But it was like, they were so into it for seven years, and then it is kind of like the second he stops being boyish, people were like, this is just annoying now.

[Richard Lawson]

And I think in this movie, which I don't mind him in this movie, but I understand the complaints. But, you know, in the context of what we're talking about, he does seem to be leeching off of his co star, who's one of the most radiant, appealing movie stars maybe to ever exist.

[David Sims]

And not only that, Holly Hunter's a very specific, magical thing.

[Richard Lawson]

And he's, like, drafting off that energy. And you're like, no, that's hers. Like, you don't get to take that.

[David Sims]

Also, he's like, I don't know if I want to say I love you to Holly Hunter. And I'm like, I hope you die fast. Your plane crashes into the ground.

[Griffin Newman]

I think he's kind of well cast.

[David Sims]

Sure, he's well cast as an.

[Griffin Newman]

Other people could have done this better. Better. And I don't think this is, like, a great performance from him, but I think there are other Richard Dreyfuss comedies of this period where I'm like, jesus Christ, can you cool it down? And in this one, the frustration of, like, this guy needs to fucking realize, right, that he sucks. You know, like, he needs to eat shit.

[David Sims]

It means a lot of the movie is him yelling at people who can't hear him. Frustrating to watch and annoying.

[Griffin Newman]

I agree. Now, the counter that is, as you said, like, 10 minutes in, I'm like, you know what? This movie is an automatic three stars for me because any vehicle built around Holly Hunter in this time period is just playing with house money.

[Richard Lawson]

It's unbelievable.

[Griffin Newman]

That all is unreal.

[David Sims]

And, hey, Goodman essentially being Baloo from Tailspin.

[Griffin Newman]

Fine with that.

[David Sims]

Nothing wrong with that. That's some great stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

If Goodman was romancing Holly Hunter, it maybe would be an automatic 5 for me if the, like. If the Res.

[David Sims]

They are a physical mismatch.

[Griffin Newman]

That's part of what I found compelling in this mind's eye version of the.

[David Sims]

Kind of a Fred Flintstone physics alone kind of blue.

[Griffin Newman]

And Mowgli.

[David Sims]

Who doesn't hook up with Mowgli.

[Griffin Newman]

No, but they. They're very good friends.

[Richard Lawson]

What version of you is that in the Favreau one?

[David Sims]

It's in the Andy Circus one. He went off the leash.

[Richard Lawson]

No, I was watching her in this last night, and I was just. And I'd seen it before, and I. And I was like, oh, right. When I was a kid that. I mean, it was the plain stuff. And her. I was just, like, so mesmerized. I was like, who? I'd never seen someone be that way. Here's what's crazy.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm gonna. I'm gonna make an extreme statement, but I stand by this. She's, like, kind of as good in this as she is in Broadcast News, just in a movie that is nowhere near as good.

[Richard Lawson]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, that was the part of me that was like, she is so powerful at this point in time that if you just give her this much Runway, she will, like, motor an entire movie into feeling like it's kind of important anytime she's on screen. Broadcast News is also giving her, like, a perfect screenplay and a perfect structure with perfect castmates, a more interesting character.

[David Sims]

And also, like, half of this movie is her having to interact with Brad Johnson, who is a less compelling scene partner than Albert Brooks or William Burke.

[Griffin Newman]

But that's why I'm like. She's like, making this feel like something out of nothing. Her character is not really written.

[David Sims]

Look, this movie features Keith David playing a character called Powerhouse. It should be a five star, and it is not. It's also a Steven Spielberg movie, and he does set a high bar for himself. And this thing is curio at best to me. Every time I watch it, I'm like, come on, there's a gem in here, right?

[Richard Lawson]

Because the world is so interestingly rendered. Like, the place, the setting, the profession. I just find the way that Holly Hunter rides her bike from her cabin to the airfield. You're like, I want to live in this world. And then the story kind of just drags. Drags you away from it weirdly. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it's. It's maybe his most frustrating movie on that level. But I feel like I hear a lot of people being like, obviously his worst movie.

[Richard Lawson]

It's like Strenuously Nothing.

[David Sims]

And I Certainly not his first movie. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

1941 is his worst.

[Griffin Newman]

There are at least five movies I have, like, underlined Bolden below this. Like, I even think the.

[David Sims]

I only think I have a cuff.

[Griffin Newman]

The only other movie in his filmography I would argue is him trying to do this kind of thing again is the Terminal.

[David Sims]

Terminal, which I think is worse than.

[Griffin Newman]

Greatly prefer this to the Terminal.

[David Sims]

Although.

[Richard Lawson]

Although I rewatched the Terminal and it actually, like, it's not as bad as I remember it being.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't hate it.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But I do think I like the world this movie is building, even if it feels like it doesn't. But I will say land the plan.

[Richard Lawson]

I will say about Always. I was watching it last night, and I haven't written this. This ranking that I'm gonna do that'll be long out by the time this air. I was like, for that first 20, 30 minutes, I was like, is this gonna be in my top 10?

[Griffin Newman]

I was. I was. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

And then it doesn't. You know, then it doesn't. Doesn't deliver. But like that. Yeah, the opening is. And that's what Spielberg is good at is being like, you know, compared to Jurassic park, where you're like, I buy that every one of these scientists actually works here and knows what they're talking about. And like, I bought the world of Always, you know, and. And then I just don't think he figures out what to do.

[Griffin Newman]

With that, we should crack open the dossier. But I also just find within the arc that we're covering here, this is such a fascinating move because A, it's the first time he tries to do the Spielberg doubleheader year.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

This thing he loves where.

[David Sims]

Well, he loves or he just kind of ends up doing it. But he come this game out the same year as Last Crusade.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And. But every time he does a double header year, it's like that. Where it's kind of like two different types of movies. It's not just two movies that happen to get finished around this.

[Richard Lawson]

Can we run through? Because I know it's obviously Jurassic and Schindler. Lost World and Amistad.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Warhorse and Tintin.

[Richard Lawson]

Warhorse and Tintin.

[David Sims]

You're getting one in the middle there.

[Griffin Newman]

And the one in the movie was more of the minority reporting.

[Richard Lawson]

Catch it if you can. That's right.

[David Sims]

And War of the Worlds in Munich.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Wild.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So, I mean, they're almost always kind of like Sirius and Popcorn.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, and on varying levels. Sometimes it's a really wide gap, but they're sort of like, this is one.

[David Sims]

Of the narrower gaps.

[Griffin Newman]

Agreed. But I also think this is him coming off of Color Purple and Empire of the sun where he's done this swing of like, I want to prove to you guys that I'm a grownup. And everyone's like, just fucking cool it, man. Can you go back to being Steven Spielberg? He makes Last Crusade, which is like seen as a total commercial triumph. And it's like you're back to just having fun.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but not that's. Yeah, but it's. But he's not reinventing the wheel at all. And like.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, but it's a sort of like, welcome back. You're doing the thing we've all wanted you to do. And then always feels like him being like, can I make a grown up movie infused with the things that people like about Spielberg movies rather than the Empire of the Sun, Color Purple. I'm trying to fight against some of my instincts.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I think the answer is no.

[Griffin Newman]

You feel like he should be able to do this. And it kind of hasn't ever worked for him.

[David Sims]

It hasn't ever really worked for him. And this movie maybe was not as big an Oscar play as, say, the Color Purple or Empire of the sun, but it's an Oscar play. Ish. It could be this. If this movie had hit right, it would be an Oscar player.

[Griffin Newman]

December 1989. Like, it was positioned.

[Richard Lawson]

They are. They shoot Holly Hunter in particular, he shoots her in a way that feels Oscar Y. I mean, like, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

She'S coming off a Broadcast News nomination award she probably should have won. There is a feeling of like, hey, if someone gives Holly Hunter another great vehicle like that, they'll probably throw her.

[Richard Lawson]

And I think Ms. Firecracker had gotten great reviews and maybe got, like, critics prizes or something, but it didn't quite hit at Oscars.

[Griffin Newman]

She was, like, not overdue yet, but she was ready to be anointed.

[Richard Lawson]

And then they said. Then the industry said, well, let's just wait until she plays a mute New Zealand person.

[Griffin Newman]

She has to stop talking.

[David Sims]

Such a bizarre Oscar year.

[Griffin Newman]

89.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So this is the Driving Miss Daisy.

[David Sims]

This is the Driving Miss Daisy year. Obviously, Driving Miss Daisy winning Best Picture is a mistake by the Academy Awards. I don't think any of us can deny that.

[Richard Lawson]

That's the only one they've made, though.

[David Sims]

They never made a mistake again after.

[Griffin Newman]

That because it should have gone to Batman.

[David Sims]

The other nominees that year are born on the 4th of July, which it's almost inexplicable that it hadn't won, but I assume it was kind of a. Like, we gave Platoon Best Picture four years ago. We're gonna give another Vietnam drama from the same guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Going in was sort of seen as.

[David Sims]

The front row, and it wins Best Director.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

So, like, it definitely was.

[Griffin Newman]

It is the funny thing, though, that, like, people were like, it's probably gonna win picture and actor, and then it lost those two, and instead they give Stone another Oscar to Broadway.

[David Sims]

Yeah, exactly. Dead Poets Society, which. There's a world where that could win.

[Griffin Newman]

It was certainly a big hit. A big hit with a beloved star.

[David Sims]

Beloved star, big director, but I guess maybe just a little too sort of small. But then again, they gave me a lot of fucking.

[Richard Lawson]

And the beloved star is Robert Sean Leonard you're talking about. Yes. Okay.

[David Sims]

Field of Dreams, which only gets two noms, picture and screenplay. But is the best movie I've said so far.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. My opinion is actually rude. They didn't give it more, but that was sort of their kind of like. Like, tip of the hat. It was kind of nomed in the way they would numb a lot of Spielberg movies where they're like, we are acknowledging this is very effective.

[Richard Lawson]

And Field of Dreams is that Amy Manigan movie. Right.

[David Sims]

Keep going.

[Griffin Newman]

Just keep doing this.

[David Sims]

For every movie My Left Foot, the original Miramax, has unearthed a European or British or Irish or what? You know, movie and story.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, none of those movies in my well, no, I would dominate Field of Dream.

[Griffin Newman]

Dreams.

[David Sims]

Like sure, I would nominate that. But like, you know, they're ignoring the do the Right.

[Griffin Newman]

They're ignoring Snobier. Yeah.

[David Sims]

They're ignoring When Harry Met Sally.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes to.

[David Sims]

They're ignoring Crimes and Misdemeanors. Kind of insane of them. Kind of gets a bunch of other noms. They're ignoring Batman.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you.

[David Sims]

They're ignoring Ghostbusters. Two Ghostbusters.

[Griffin Newman]

Two Ghostbusters.

[David Sims]

They're ignoring Henry V, which again gets gnomes, but not a best picture.

[Richard Lawson]

But they stole that score and used it in every trailer for 10 years.

[Ben Hosley]

I've never seen any of the other Henry.

[Griffin Newman]

Is he the only guy who can pull off that joke?

[Richard Lawson]

Yes.

[David Sims]

I don't and I was charmed not.

[Griffin Newman]

Find it funny and charming coming from.

[David Sims]

Ben, let me tell you as an expert or not, but as someone who knows about British history. Henry iii. That'd be a very boring movie. One and two. Those are interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

Four.

[David Sims]

Obviously Shakespeare had his field day with that one. Three. No, no, no.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben's been saying that he wants to get into playwriting. Maybe you should take on one of the earlier Henry's interest.

[Richard Lawson]

Henry III was sort of a Richard Dreyfus figure, right?

[David Sims]

He was crowned as like a nine month old. Like he's a weird. Anyway, the point I feel like you're.

[Griffin Newman]

Making here is this was like the Oscars.

[David Sims]

Don't know what to do.

[Griffin Newman]

But also this is a field that if always was had even a little passion behind it.

[Richard Lawson]

Who was. Who is an actress.

[David Sims]

That's what I wanted to get. Okay, Jessica Tany and then we'll crack open the dossy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Jessica Tany wins best Actress. I don't think there's anything wrong with that win. She is number one good in the movie. She's number two. An icon.

[Griffin Newman]

I've never actually seen seen it.

[David Sims]

That's crazy.

[Richard Lawson]

It's entertaining.

[David Sims]

It's quite entertaining.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what I assume. I always avoided it because I don't want to be like.

[David Sims]

I mean it is an incredibly like dated and silly.

[Richard Lawson]

Did Dan Aykroyd get nominated?

[David Sims]

Yes, he did. He's good in it. He's not amazing, but he's good.

[Griffin Newman]

In the same year that he appears in the film. Always.

[Richard Lawson]

He's not as good in 1941. Just word of warning. Sure.

[David Sims]

He's had some peaks and valleys. Old Acro.

[Richard Lawson]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Tandy's really good in Driving Miss Daisy and like that. You know, she's playing a character who won't say her feelings like, it's, you know, like. And so, like, you know. No, she's good.

[Griffin Newman]

And she's a legend, a living legend.

[David Sims]

Right. And she was the oldest winner ever. The. The Oscar, obviously. Obviously should have gone to Michelle Pfeiffer in the Fabulous Baker Boy, which is, like, one of the great.

[Richard Lawson]

And she won every critics prize. Right? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

But probably was just doomed with like, oh, she's young. We'll get to her. Tandy's got to win this year. Right. The other nominees are Isabelle Adjani, the legend for Klamih Khaldi.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow. Okay.

[David Sims]

So a bit of a boring, you know, kind of Tony Frenchy movie, but like Isabella Johnny, she rocks. Pauline Collins and Shirley Valentine, the charming, you know, British, you know, little movie that could. Right. She's like, I have.

[Griffin Newman]

For whatever reason.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, that sounds great.

[Griffin Newman]

Watched the 1989 Siskel and Ebert. If we picked the Oscar special, they're just, like, perplexed. They won't stop harping on. We're really gonna nominate this. Like, they keep on going, like, it's fine. We don't need it.

[David Sims]

An early version of it. But, like, what's going on here? The Billy Elliots and the, you know, little British movies that could, like, they would just charm the pants off.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't remember who they were arguing, should have been in that slot, but they were just like, really? We couldn't find anyone else.

[David Sims]

I should watch that. That sounds fun. Because the fifth nominee is Jessica Lange for Music Box, which is like a forgotten Costa Gavras movie. Like, a very serious movie about an attorney and, like, a war criminal in.

[Griffin Newman]

Hungary and stuff like that in between her two wins.

[David Sims]

Right. But, like, does kind of feel like one of those ones where they're like, whoa, very serious. Right. Like, now, if I. A hundred people out of a hundred have never heard of Music Pucks.

[Richard Lawson]

I mean, like, you're Lewis Fortels of the world, who know every single nominee since 1930.

[David Sims]

Even Lewis might, like, take 10 seconds.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. There would be.

[Griffin Newman]

Produce music by box.

[David Sims]

Yeah. The question.

[Richard Lawson]

So does Jessica Lang play Mariah Carey?

[David Sims]

Cute. Thank you very much.

[Griffin Newman]

Well done. Like.

[David Sims]

And if I look at, like, the Golden Globes, right, where you're sort of like, who else is in there? Okay. Sally Field for Steel Magnolia. It's kind of weird that she whiffed on that. Like, she's good in that.

[Richard Lawson]

But Roberts gets the nomination. It's.

[Griffin Newman]

She's actually weird, though, because they liked her. Yeah, they really, like.

[Richard Lawson]

They really liked her.

[David Sims]

Andy McDowell. Sex lies. And Videotape got a Globe Nomin. Amazing performance, in my opinion. Meg Ryan got a fucking Golden Globes. Maybe throw her a bow.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what they should have done.

[David Sims]

And Meryl Streep got a Golden Globes now for she Devil, but that wasn't getting enough.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Do you know she Devil is one of the best movies?

[David Sims]

She Devil rocks, but obviously was, you know, not a hit.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, but she rules in it. And the reviews at the time were so mean to her.

[Richard Lawson]

Was she devil 89.

[David Sims]

Yeah, 89.

[Richard Lawson]

So. So this is the movie Goodman got after one season of Roseanne, and that's what she got.

[David Sims]

Roseanne got.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[David Sims]

And Kathleen Turner for Wars the Roses, which is a good movie that she's good in.

[Griffin Newman]

That would have been a little too.

[Richard Lawson]

Like, poisonous, do you think, if When Harry Met Sal in. I mean, obviously it would be. Wouldn't be as 80s, but like, if. If that quality romantic comedy with that kind of central performance came out now, would Mega Ryan get an Oscar nomination?

[David Sims]

I think yes. Assuming it was a big, big hit.

[Richard Lawson]

Because I think sometimes history, like Academy history, it was kinder to comedy, but in some ways it wasn't. I don't know.

[David Sims]

I think at this point they're really starting to trend towards the more prestigious stuff. This is the late 80s. It's you're out of Africa as your last empress.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the era that defines what we still like shorthand think of as, quote, unquote, Oscar bait.

[David Sims]

Right. And Dragon Days is a comedy sort of. But it's like.

[Richard Lawson]

Who is it, like in the 70s, is it Marsha Mason who got like three nominations for Neil Simon movies? You know, but then that, then. Then the 80s, we're not doing that exactly. Well, maybe we'll get like, Diane Wiest something in supporting.

[Griffin Newman]

But like, and like, Broadcast News was just heady enough. As good as it gets is just dramatic enough.

[Richard Lawson]

Working Girl was just dramatic.

[Griffin Newman]

That was the thing they loved, was you start, like, funny comedy of manners, characters, and then it gets really dramatic at the end. Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

So I'm cracking open the dossier, please. Steven Spielberg. Now, I don't know if you guys know this, but he had a childhood and he would watch.

[Richard Lawson]

It was great. Right. He was happy, settled, cooking.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

And were there any monkeys? No. Right.

[David Sims]

Like, the graph of his child is like, zero monkeys. Zero monkeys. Zero monkeys. One monkey. Uh oh, Things are really bad.

[Griffin Newman]

We had Brian Michael Bandis on for the Rares of the Lost Ark episode, and he just called out the monkeys, which we Were like, holy shit. I can't believe we never thought about.

[Richard Lawson]

An evil scheming monkey.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So when young Steven Spielberg was a lad in Arizona, he would watch old movies sometimes on the television. And there was a movie called A guy named Joe. 1943, wartime MGM drama directed by Victor Fleming, who definitely never screamed anything at Judy Garland. Scripted, as you may know, quite damply.

[Griffin Newman]

Where's Mr. Dobbles? Out of the way.

[David Sims]

Clickety clack, Splishy splash.

[Griffin Newman]

Start to put down the ducky for a moment in order to type out the rest of the script.

[David Sims]

Spencer Tracy, who, let me tell you, makes sense in this role. Like, you know, like Richard Dus.

[Griffin Newman]

Makes sense as the Richard Dreyus.

[David Sims]

Richard Drus wishes his ass with Spencer Tracy, Irene Dunn, the great Irene Dunn. And Van Johnson, no relation to Ben Johnson or whoever it is. And always Van Johnson.

[Griffin Newman]

Let me say I like Van Johnson, but it kind of was more the Richard Dreyfus of his time.

[David Sims]

Sure. And then Ward Bond is the John Goodman. Anyway, it's about a World War II fighter pilot. He dies and then he comes back to earth as a ghost and sort of tries to get his former lover together with her new beau. And Spielberg said it was the second movie after Bambi that made him cry. I didn't even understand why I was crying, but I did like the Tracy character being powerless, he's like this piece of furniture, but he's trying to affect things anyway. I mean, as a child I was frustrated. Maybe I saw my own parents in it.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the part of it that I do think has the Fabelman's lens. The other thing.

[Richard Lawson]

There it is. Says a lot there it is.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that, like, you know, his father, who was kind of like a Paul Dano type.

[David Sims]

It was a bit of a Paul Danotype, but flew planes in dull war.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the thing. And, like, didn't want to talk about it and didn't know how to relate to Spielberg on his own. Yes, Right. That Spielberg would watch this movie and feel some emotional connection to like this helps me understand my dad.

[David Sims]

Now this. I'm sure JJ got this wrong because I don't think Richard Dreyfus would ever behave this aggressively. But on the set of Jaws, they're making Spielberg's working with Richard Dreyfus and they. They find that they both love this movie. My. My Name is a guy called Joe. My Name is Joe as a Ken Loach movie is really good. They're. They've both seen it dozens of times. And Dreyfus says if you ever remake that film and cast anyone else as Pete, I'll kill you. Now, that can't be true. Dreyfus would never talk that way to somebody.

[Richard Lawson]

No, I can't im. Was he wiping his nose at the. At that. At the time?

[David Sims]

Rubbing his teeth?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. Was he smoking four cigarettes at once?

[Griffin Newman]

He was crying coke.

[David Sims]

He was right. His body was like, we're full. It's. You're going to start sweating it out, buddy. You might want to catch the runoff. You can sell this. Spielberg at MGM does start to work on maybe remaking the film.

[Griffin Newman]

It was an MGM picture. They had the rights.

[David Sims]

Dreyfus, he. Spielberg, in his infinite wisdom, is like, Dreyfus makes absolutely no sense for this movie. I want to cast Robert Redford. Yeah. No, good job, Steven Spielberg.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, but here was the problem. Problem. His idea was great opportunity to do another Newman and Redford.

[David Sims]

He wants to team up Redford and Newman, I guess, with Newman probably as the deceased pilot and Redford is the new bow.

[Griffin Newman]

The whole issue was.

[Richard Lawson]

That's interesting.

[David Sims]

They both want to be the pilot.

[Griffin Newman]

They both want to be the pilot. They couldn't settle.

[David Sims]

Other actors considered Harrison Ford in the John Goodman role.

[Griffin Newman]

Interesting. That would have been disorienting.

[David Sims]

No, I mean, you also just don't want to let Harrison Ford in your plane. He's gonna start just randomly picking people up.

[Richard Lawson]

That would have been how Audrey Hepburn died.

[David Sims]

Also, Deborah Winger makes a lot of sense.

[Griffin Newman]

Early age, ton of sense. The exact person that Holly Hunter replaces for Broadcast News.

[David Sims]

Yeah. And of course, another person who never, ever did cocaine.

[Griffin Newman]

Could you imagine? I know these are different versions, different eras, but could you imagine if Deborah Winger and Richard Dreyfus made a movie together in the 80s?

[David Sims]

The poster is, like, covered in powder. People have to like, what's the movie called?

[Richard Lawson]

The director is still missing to this day.

[David Sims]

Is a mirror that you could just sniff off of. All right, so first draft was written by this guy, Jerry Belson, who I think has the sole credit. Well, on the movie. Well, we'll talk about it.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. He did end up getting the soul credit.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a weird thing where in all their early marketing materials, it's a co credit, and then the final film, it's.

[David Sims]

A. Diane Thomas, who wrote Romancing the Stone, does a subsequent draft and as you say, some promotional materials include her name, but only Bellson got credit. Tom Stoppard pass at it. Yes, Whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

We talked about Diane Nelson in our Brancing Stone episode has this, like, insanely tragic life story where she dies under Horrible circumstances right after romancing the stone kind of makes her the toast of the town. And you feel like she would have been one of the major screenwriters of the next four or five decades. And she doesn't write Jewel of the Nile because Spielberg plucks her for this suddenly and then like she was the original writer on Last Crusade in a different version, I should say on Indiana Jones 3. Like, it was like.

[Richard Lawson]

Cuz that was a much different plot.

[Griffin Newman]

It was a haunted house movie. But like Spielberg and Lucas basically did the Kasdan with her where they were.

[David Sims]

Like, it's a drunk driving accident. It's very tragic in real life.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like a horrible, horrible story. But yes, I think a lot of her work does end up in the final film.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

But she never got to complete it.

[David Sims]

Spielberg says no script though, could really find the right balance between humor and sensitivity and romance. Some are too funny, some are too sappy. And so it takes him a while to find a screenplay he really likes. In my opinion, he should have kept looking.

[Griffin Newman]

My point I want to make is I just almost feel like had she lived, she might have been someone who had gotten there eventually.

[David Sims]

Maybe. I mean, Spielberg's. The interesting thing is that the earlier elements were. Scripts were like Spielbergy. So like he walks through walls and shit. They were like, let's give us a chance for some vfx. Like he's a ghost.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And when he finally does make the film, he is going through his divorce from Amy Irving, which he doesn't talk about too much, but clearly was very, very hard on him and so on and so forth.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's also just make it clear, obviously the MGM version stalls out. He walks away for. From a w. From it for a while. He has a big deal at Universal now and he just. He comes back to as the thing he wants to do. There's a rights acquisition. Suddenly it becomes like, we're fast tracking this.

[Richard Lawson]

I'm getting. I mean, it's interesting because he had. He had a weird 80s.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. Like not an unsuccessful one, but it's just interesting that he. I mean, I guess. What am I saying? Of course he had the clout to get this made. It's just. It just arrived at such a weird time in his career to be able for a studio to be like, yeah, sure, go, go.

[Griffin Newman]

This 160 Minutes interview I'll keep referencing and I'll make sure we post on the social media. But it's in the hook moment, which is fascinating me because it's right before the Year. It's the last moment before his Schindler Jurassic year, where it's like this guy can kind of never be questioned again. Right, right. And he's showing them this, like, giant compound that is the Amblin offices, this huge house that has, like, 80 arcade cabinets and multiple floors and just, like, looks like a luxury villa. Right. And it's at Universal. And they make it very clear that Universal just built this for him unprovoked and said, hey, we don't have you under contract. You don't owe us any anything. Just feel free to stay here on.

[Richard Lawson]

The lot if you want.

[Griffin Newman]

And anytime you want to do a movie with us, we'd love to hear it. Like, his power was so great. Even within a weird 80s.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what they do after E.T.

[Richard Lawson]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

It's that. That moment where they're just like, we just want to be closest to him geographically. Whenever he has a new idea for a movie. We're even coming off of a few that didn't connect that hard.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

If he goes to them and is like, what if I want to make Always? They're like, absolutely. Well, buy the rights. Who do you want? They're still just like.

[Richard Lawson]

Because I would imagine also there was. They were like, well, that has some commercial potential. You know, there's plain scene and explosions.

[Griffin Newman]

It's coming off of him making, like, two very heavy, dramatic movies.

[Richard Lawson]

Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

You're like, this is like a supernatural romance.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. Great.

[David Sims]

Spielberg says he also couldn't find the right guy to play Pete. And then he watched Stakeout and was kind of like, I guess Dreyfus has aged into the role.

[Griffin Newman]

He's kind of experiencing a second wind at this point.

[David Sims]

Holly Hunter, he sees broadcast news and is like, that's definitely the person I want.

[Griffin Newman]

I would say that was a pretty good call on him.

[David Sims]

That's a good call. And he didn't want to make the movie with, like, you know, big glamorous stars. No offense to Richard and Holly. He wanted the more earthy, real type.

[Richard Lawson]

People, which is a great choice, I think.

[David Sims]

John Goodman, obviously, he'd seen Roseanne and loved him in Roseanne. I mean, had not seen Raising Arizona.

[Griffin Newman]

Interesting.

[David Sims]

Or at least had not thought about Raising Arizona. He said only once he starts making the movie, he realizes, like, oh, right. Holly Hunter and John Goodman were already in a movie together.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I mean, this is weirdly one of the other pieces of this movie's legacy. One of the only reasons it ever comes up in conversation is John Goodman. One season of Roseanne gets Cast. He's going to be above the title with his fucking face on the poster. In a Spielberg movie, he goes for the first table read. He feels so validated. I'm being recognized by the top people in the industry. And he gets to the table read and Spielberg stands up and he was like, I want to introduce my cast. Holly Hunter, Richard Dreifman. And ladies and gentlemen, I have found my live action Fred Flintstone, John Goodman. And everyone applauds. And Goodman's like, oh, my God, he only fucking called me because he wants to do a Flintstones movie. And like, Flintstones takes five years to happen.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But Spielberg had been like, wouldn't it be cool to do live action Flintstones? And Goodman just talks up, feeling so demoralized about, like, he views me as a cartoon character, which this movie uses him in a very earthy way. But he was like, I didn't want to do Flintstones. I had no interest in ever doing Flintstones. And at that moment when he made everyone applaud, I was like, I guess I can't not do this. The world is telling me I have to do this.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. And Spielberg was right. It was very, very cool to do a live action Flintstones.

[David Sims]

Very cool.

[Richard Lawson]

What a cool movie.

[David Sims]

Yeah. So Audrey Hepburn in the original movie, Lionel Barrymore, it's a male, whatever angel, voice of God character, male hat. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Who'd he want?

[David Sims]

Sean Connery.

[Griffin Newman]

Sean Connery.

[David Sims]

He's like, oh, that's Sean Connery. Sean Connery's like, I'm. I'm under the sea right now. He's making Red October, which he jumped.

[Griffin Newman]

Onto like three days into filming.

[David Sims]

And Audrey Hepburn, I mean, when had she even last been in a movie?

[Griffin Newman]

They all laughed.

[David Sims]

And, like, is basically just like a UNICEF ambassador. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, she got paid $1 million for this movie and gave that $1 million check directly to UNICEF. Basically said like, I have been soft retired.

[David Sims]

Yeah, they all left, which is 81. So, you know, it's eight years prior. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And, and the, the gaps had been big. Like, she doesn't like 78.

[David Sims]

That's 76. She does like two movies in the 70s. Like, you know, Bar. Yeah, she's good. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's all kind of just like, oh, that's.

[Griffin Newman]

Going to say it is effective stunt casting.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It is kind of the thing where he talked about, like, Connery doesn't want to do it. And he was talking to Holly Hunter and was like, who, like, would represent, like, God or like, you know, an angelic force on screen.

[Richard Lawson]

A calm, benevolent guy. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And it was just like, oh, Audrey Hepburn.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's, you know, more weight lent to it by it. Her being her final film.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's not like an incredible performance, but it is like. I find it to be remarkably effective. Effective stunt casting.

[Richard Lawson]

It's her final film, but she did two seasons of Roseanne.

[Griffin Newman]

She did do two seasons. She played the lunchbox.

[David Sims]

Yeah. She was on Bobby's World. Just trying to think of the most irrelevant cartoon I could have.

[Griffin Newman]

Hey, that's a very relevant cartoon.

[David Sims]

You're right.

[Richard Lawson]

It is fun that Forever John Goodman will have been in a movie with Audrey Hepburn.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

It's a strange pairing, but it works.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you think they. Obviously, they don't have scenes together, but. Did they talk at Crown?

[Richard Lawson]

I would hope so. Or at the cast party?

[Griffin Newman]

My favorite anecdote I saw is Audrey Hepburn provided her own wardrobe.

[David Sims]

Oh, sure.

[Richard Lawson]

And they were white turbos, had deeply tracks. Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

And they were. Spielberg was very intense on, like, she has to have this heavenly glow around her, you know, and she's brought this delicate white cashmere and we can't sully it. So crew guys would have to carry her to and from her marks on a stretcher. Not because she couldn't walk, but they were like, you can't touch dirt on this. Scenes are in the woods.

[David Sims]

Woods.

[Griffin Newman]

But you cannot touch the woods until the moment we roll. Like, I just. I mean, she's 62 in this.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Is that right? She's that young. Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

And she died the next year, right?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And she had already kind of like. I mean, it's what we were talking about, the Color Purple episode of like, legendary movie stars used to just kind of like slowly retreat.

[David Sims]

Yeah. She had. She had like a very rare kind of abdominal cancer came on suddenly. The big change he obviously makes is it's no longer a World War II movie. They make it contemporary and they sort of make this interesting pick of like. Yeah, fire.

[Richard Lawson]

You know what else uses planes.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, I love it.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's very interesting.

[David Sims]

And it's kind of an odd niche.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the thing. It's got that, like, this is like a very specific subculture. I just don't see depicted. Let's also. I'll just gonna call out not to be a bummer.

[David Sims]

We're watching kind.

[Griffin Newman]

We're recording this episode.

[David Sims]

Put LA out.

[Griffin Newman]

It is the worst of the tragic, kind of incomprehensible situation going on in Los Angeles.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And there Is something. There was no circumstance in which I could watch this movie, especially the first 30 minutes, and have it.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Sort of jolting.

[Griffin Newman]

It's jolting. You feel such a catharsis. And when they're able to put stuff out, you feel the stakes of it.

[Richard Lawson]

So much for sure. And I think it's such an interesting choice. Choice. And. And it's referred to directly in the movie where they're like, you're not fighting in the war. Where it's like, it's about hotshot ace fighter pilots without a war to fight.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

And how it makes Dreyfus a little more reckless and like, you know, I think it's. I think it's actually kind of about a generation in a way.

[Griffin Newman]

I agree. And I'm like, this Dreyfus would be disastrous casting if he had to be a military man in any way.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[David Sims]

Yeah. No, he wouldn't fit that.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. There's something about him being.

[Richard Lawson]

He can be the elder of a tribe, but not military.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he like. Right. He can't have that sort of like valor to him.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, that's. That's the problem.

[Griffin Newman]

David.

[David Sims]

What?

[Griffin Newman]

This episode's brought to you by Mubi.

[David Sims]

Hello, Mooby.

[Griffin Newman]

Once again, here we are in March 2025, and we are so happy that MUBI continues to sponsor the show. They are a curated streaming service dedicated to elevated creating great cinema from around the globe. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's.

[David Sims]

Always something new to discover with movie. Each and every film is hand selected, so you can explore the best of cinema streaming anytime, anywhere. And that's fine. You can go to movie. You can watch great movies. It's really great.

[Griffin Newman]

But they find it's great.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's great. Fantastic. But they've also got movies. Movies which are in theaters and then stream exclusively on Fun Movie, such as Academy Award winner the Substance. Might have heard of it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's quite a big breakthrough.

[David Sims]

Carly Faujier's movie from 2024 was nominated for best picture, Best director, Best actress.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

One for best makeup.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. If you somehow have not seen the Substance yet, the place you gotta go is Mubi.

[David Sims]

Yep. Yeah, it's streaming exclusively there. I think it's actually back in theaters for a short time because of the Oscars. But you've got Demi, you've got Dennis Quaid, you got Margaret Cawley, you got this gonzo script, you've got this crazy, lurid imagery, this, you know, insane satire. It's a wild movie and it's a.

[Griffin Newman]

Must See Griff's mom approved.

[David Sims]

Oh, fascinating.

[Griffin Newman]

I took her to see it, I thought she was going to walk out and she gave it two grossed out thumbs up.

[David Sims]

So you can check all that out. And of course, to stream great films at home, you can try movie free for 30 days. That's m u b I.com blankcheck for a month of gray cinema for free.

[Griffin Newman]

Mubi David.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This is what brushing my teeth with an electric toothbrush used to sound like. It's like Lou Reed's Metal machine music happening inside my head.

[David Sims]

Very good.

[Griffin Newman]

This is what it sounds like now since I've switched to quip.

[Ben Hosley]

Oh, that's so much more pleasant.

[David Sims]

It's a lot less annoying.

[Griffin Newman]

You can harmonize with it.

[Ben Hosley]

So you're saying compared to other electric toothbrushes on the market, that quip is a nice and quiet experience compared to. To the loud ones out there?

[Griffin Newman]

That's a great way of putting it, Ben.

[Ben Hosley]

Okay, so then try the quip360 and you'll never have to deal with metal machine music again.

[David Sims]

Yeah. So why don't you get yourself quip360? It's an oscillating toothbrush, Griffin, that's literally gonna revolve around you.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what I like.

[David Sims]

I've been using Quip for a long time. But the 360 is the, you know, the kind of like round brush.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure, yeah, yeah. This is the whole thing with quip. It's an electric toothbrush that doesn't overcomplicate the most basic daily ritual. I feel like quip just exists to make this as easy as possible.

[David Sims]

Very simple designs, ultra quiet, super clean, you know, easy to maintain, and is scientifically, according to the American Dental association, scientifically proven to remove up to 11 times more plaque between teeth compared to a manual toothbrush and provide up to two times more whitening on day one. And if you don't like it, return it for free within 30 days.

[Griffin Newman]

It's fine. It's. It's easy to travel with, it is convenient, it's easy to clean, and if you do love it, you can brush easy knowing you get a free lifetime warranty for purchasing on get quip. That's Q-P dot com and the opportunity to subscribe to Refill Heads by mail every three months so you never have to go to the store. This is a part part I like. That's the kind of thing I forget.

[David Sims]

You don't have to go to the store. It just happens. They just send it.

[Griffin Newman]

It shows up and you Go. Oh, right too.

[David Sims]

I got a bunch of quick stuff sent to me every, you know, a few months. It's really, really helpful. They've got 25000 five star reviews and, you know, people love Quip and they.

[Griffin Newman]

Got a perks program. You know, I love perks programs.

[David Sims]

You do quit perks.

[Griffin Newman]

Quip. Quip puts. Quip Perks is a little hard to say. I'm gonna say that's just for me. Quip puts their money where their mouth is. When you subscribe to Auto Ship, you'll be enrolled and quip perks to earn credit back over time.

[David Sims]

Just for listeners, a blank check. Get 20% off site wide and a free travel case and counter top [e-mail] check. That's getquip.com check.

[Griffin Newman]

Free your mouth today and save 20% sitewide plus a free travel case and countertop stand at getquip q u I.

[David Sims]

P.Com check getquip quip.com sl quip quip. The big challenge for this movie is filming, like, forest fire sequences is hard.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

And ask how long.

[David Sims]

Yeah. They would bring in like, fake trees to set on fire. They would sort of, I don't know, like, reburn areas of the Yellowstone Fire. They photograph some actual forest fires. Right. They, like go to Montana and like, shoot actual forest fires. A lot of it is sound stages. And they do have, like, fake trees that they set on fire and stuff. I don't know. The whole thing seems pretty.

[Griffin Newman]

There's something, despite the fire, feeling very real and visceral and scary. There is something very kind of like golden age Hollywood to the way he films the planes and the cockpits. A level of artificiality that I like. I couldn't tell how much of it was sets, you know, on gimbals and how much of its models or whatever. But I liked that quality to it.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's like a good level of like Spielberg doing Spielberg Whiz Bang without also turning it into too much of a Spielberg stunt show.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Richard Lawson]

I think the sound design is really crucial for balancing the kind of artificiality with the realness. The sound of the propellers, the engines. Like when it. When a plane crashes through a fiery tree, like, it does register. I mean, as a kid, I was like. It was like. I was in awe of it in a terrified way.

[Griffin Newman]

Before we started recording, I asked the question, is this the movie with the most overhead plane sounds? And I was like, it genuinely might be more than like shit like Top Gun. Cause something like that has Like Peaks and Valleys and this. It just feels like you're constantly hearing.

[David Sims]

DP is Mikhail Solomon, who had shot the Abyss and was recommended to Spielberg by Jim Cameron, but does Backdraft out of this and then basically becomes a director. He's directed tons of Spielberg television stuff and other TV stuff. He did Vander Brothers, Rome, Alias, you know, a bunch of stuff. But it's funny that he only worked with Spielberg the one time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, well. Cause, I mean, right after Janusz is about to Janush and Condy.

[David Sims]

Well, Hook is shot by Dean Cundy as well.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

And then. Yeah. But anyway, always. And yeah, then they make the movie and we'll get to its release. But it certainly is forgotten by current generations because it just kind of went over okay and was quickly forgotten. Like, I think. I don't. I don't think it was, like, the hardest movie ever shot or anything, but, like, it was like, you know, it was a real movie, and they. They had to figure stuff out and do stuff, and then it comes out, and it's just. Everyone's kind of like.

[Richard Lawson]

It was. We were entering an era then when, like, earnest romantic dramas were kind of falling by the wayside.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It's kind of caught between two eras in a way. And I do think it's, like, too.

[Griffin Newman]

Sappy and Spielberg caught between, like, two.

[David Sims]

Poles a little bit.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So it doesn't like. It's like, who's this movie for?

[Griffin Newman]

It is funny to me. I don't know if funny is the right word, but like. Like this sort of. Spielberg, you're not profound. You don't have serious adult thoughts. Don't try to do this. You're out of your depth. Right. And then he, like, immediately, like, cracks the code on Schindler. And, you know, seven years ago, we covered the second half of his career where, like, no one questions when he announces, I want to make a World War II film or a film about the Munich Olympics or whatever, you know?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, the. The growth, like, the internal development in him is fascinating. And obviously he still capable of making, like, super sappy, kind of sugary, emotional, grownup movies like this. But it does feel like for the first half of his career, it's like there are things you were good at and things where you were out of your depth. And then even though he makes good and bad and great and terrible movies after that point, post Schindler, it's like, you can do anything you want. We trust you to work in any genre, at any size, at any tone. And Also, like, at any visual palette, like, you can make movies look very different.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. It's just this is in some ways, I mean, there's a lot of technical skill in this one. But this, you know, right before his kind of, you know, King of the Universe thing, like, this movie does not have a ton of brand identity to it.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[Richard Lawson]

As a Spielberg movie, it's just kind of like a solid studio release from 1989.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It almost feels like the answer should be, this was directed by John Turtletov or whatever. Whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

Is John Turtle Tob around right now at this time? I think it's a little early.

[Richard Lawson]

Like, if you had told me that this was like Ed's wick or something, I'd be like, sure, sw. That's right.

[David Sims]

Zwickerooni. And excuse me, he's Turtle Hob is about to poke out of his shell with Think Big in 1990.

[Richard Lawson]

That's a sequel to Music Box.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what it really kind of feels more like. And I know the timing is just a little off because this is the same year that that guy activates in a certain way. It really kind of feels like a Reiner movie. Sure. Right.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, you could just see this being a castle. Yes.

[David Sims]

I could see Ron Howard making a movie like this around this time again, like, where it's like, Ron Howard made sturdy sort of C plus, B minus star, featuring movies that cost, like a middle amount of money. Yeah, that could be sappy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But not like, you know, so sappy. Well, kind of sappy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

This movie is that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

With some Spielbergian flair in the aerial sequences.

[Griffin Newman]

And even just in like the.

[David Sims]

The.

[Griffin Newman]

His classic. The blocking. The.

[David Sims]

Well, the blocking is good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, it's. Oh, it's also because I'm, you know, I've been watching all of his movies. I noticed this. It's yet another of his movies kind of from his era, where Mark Helgenberger is Treated it terribly. No kidding.

[Griffin Newman]

Mark.

[Richard Lawson]

There's no other movie that. That happens in. But.

[David Sims]

But she really.

[Griffin Newman]

She gets the business.

[David Sims]

When she shows up, you're like, ah, Mark, it's a pleasure to see you in the movie. Like, no, no, no, it's not a pleasure to see.

[Richard Lawson]

She's pathetic and no one likes.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't lead her on.

[David Sims]

You know, I. The movie starts in this. I mean, like, what, Top Guns just a couple years before.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And Richard Dreyfus is the fucking maverick of this, you know, band of Oregonian, you know, fire, aerial firefighters. Right. Like, it's like you're always your plane's too close to the trees. You crazy, man. You always let your fuel tank run out.

[Griffin Newman]

The. This is the. The stuff I kind of like about Dreyfus in the role. Right. Is that this guy's kind of like King of Shit Mountain.

[David Sims]

Right, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, the work they do is important.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Feels like he's a rock star. Well. And she's like, you have gray hair.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. She says in the movie, she's like. She's like, if he was, like, saving actual people, like, you know, if they're actual lives, then maybe I could understand it more.

[David Sims]

But, you know, he's largely saving trees. Yeah, I suppose. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

The movie frames it more as a. A conservation effort than a. Right, right.

[David Sims]

But he does do something that is daring, obviously. Flies these big things and, you know, it's skilled. You have to dump fire material. I don't know, it's. It's kind of cool. And there's. There's a sort of pretty dazzling opening sequence that, you know, is him not dying. I get one sequence of him seeming like he might not make it, but he makes it.

[Richard Lawson]

And scaring her. She bends a spoon in her hand from stress.

[David Sims]

Right. And she's kind of like, look, I love you. I want to drink Budweiser out of a champagne glass with you for the rest of your life. And he's like, yeah, look, you're great, but my heart belongs to my plane.

[Richard Lawson]

I have some notes about that dress. You know, I mean, I know. I don't know. I mean, I don't. Nothing specific. I just. I know it was 1989, but, like.

[David Sims]

Rough, because the movie is like, va va voo. Look at her.

[Richard Lawson]

Her girl clothes.

[David Sims]

And, like, right. There's that vibe, too, of like, did you know Holly Hunter could, like, look hot in a dress? And everyone's like, yeah, fucking.

[Griffin Newman]

Of course. She just wore the best dress in the history of movies, like, two years ago.

[David Sims]

So she is kind of like, why don't you just take a teaching job? We can settle down. Like, things can be a little risky. And he's like, ah, but I just love wearing sunglasses.

[Richard Lawson]

And she says, actually, well, okay, then I'm going to go become a pilot myself. I mean, she can already fly sort of, but she threatens basically to. To start doing what he does. And he says, no, you can't do that.

[David Sims]

And then they do one last run. It takes a while. Like, you say Griff, but there's also. So it's sort of, you know, opening sequence. And then let's get to know Richard and Holly and hey, Goodman's there having fun.

[Griffin Newman]

But like, I'm gonna throw out a weird analog. Right, sure.

[David Sims]

Sequence where he dies.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

A movie like Jack Frost, right. Where the whole thing is like, this guy's gonna die.

[David Sims]

He's gonna be a snowman.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And then he's gonna have. He's gonna be struggling to connect with the people he. He didn't quite love enough.

[David Sims]

He's gonna go into the fly machine with some snow and Clooney.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

In my memory, he's alive for like, less than 15 minutes in that movie. There's like one scene where he's like.

[Richard Lawson]

You know, I got to go on.

[Griffin Newman]

The road and play my jazz music.

[Richard Lawson]

I got a scarf. She's a jazz.

[Griffin Newman]

Plays like white man blues.

[David Sims]

Yeah, those white man boy, he's a snowman. You see a whiter man.

[Griffin Newman]

You see him do like one concert sequence. There's going to be credits.

[Richard Lawson]

A Fabelman's esque movie in 30 years in which a young Damien Chazelle watches Jack Frost in awe.

[David Sims]

Oh, boy.

[Griffin Newman]

That. That movie just does the ultimate, like, family comedy shorthand of like, this guy doesn't spend enough time with his family. Right. It's like one scene of him being like, I gotta go. Then you see him play a bad.

[David Sims]

Concert and then he's like, oh, the.

[Griffin Newman]

Snow over opening credits.

[Richard Lawson]

Truly.

[Griffin Newman]

And then like, tour bus flips over. Whatever. Whatever. The. It's like so quick where you're like, I mean, this is Michael Keaton. I don't care about this guy.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You're like going through the motions so much.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Make him a snowman already. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I like that. This movie basically spends. Gives Dreyfus's character 30 minutes to like, provide him the rope to hang himself.

[David Sims]

Well, here's my problem. I don't like him, but this is. When he dies, I'm like, yes. And he comes back as a ghost. And I'm like, boom. Banish him to the shadow realm.

[Griffin Newman]

I ask you.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Knowing the promise of the premise, does that not kind of work in the movie's favor? That you're like, this movie is ultimately gonna be about this guy needing to let go, that we know we're not rooting for them to be together, that this movie is kind of about him being wrong for her?

[David Sims]

In my opinion, it should work in the movie's favor. And I guess I kind of just get hung. And to be clear, I think this movie is kind of like a five or six out of ten. Like, I don't think it's like A disaster.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. But like, and I'm also not saying this is like a great performance or even necessarily a. A particularly good performance, but I think uses his weird status in a way that I think is kind of interesting. Because as you're saying, it's like there's the moment you think he's going to die, he doesn't. And then you as an audience member knowing what you bought a ticket to, are so frustrated that you're like, this guy won't admit that he loves her.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

He needs to turn everything into some sort of snarky joke. He needs to play cooler and above it all.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. And I think the problem is hanging out with him is that the Dreyfus unlikability maybe carries that characterization too far. And I think some of the way that like, he. He talks to her pretty, like, not misogynistically exactly, but like something close and maybe with a. A more like traditionally charming leading man actor, that would play a little bit better.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the era where, where Paul Newman is really successfully transitioning into being a salty dog.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Where he's really like, loving playing kind of shitheel parts and broken men. And you could certainly see if this movie was Newman and Redford, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

It would probably totally work. I don't think the script isn't perfect. I think it would totally work as just kind of like a movie movie. I think Newman would be able to play the same kind of like glib arrogance where you're like, dude, get out of your fucking way. But also there is a base level charm from watching Paul Newman and being like, I know this guy isn't a monster in a movie star coded way.

[Richard Lawson]

Paul Newman would have been old, though.

[David Sims]

This is the problem.

[Griffin Newman]

You would have cast Holly Hunter. You'd need to put someone else in there.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You would have the weird problem of Newman and Redford being in scenes together but unable to interact. Kind of like a weird arm behind your back thing.

[Richard Lawson]

Like Hoffman and Hackman in Runaway Jury.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Well, that's why they had to give him the urinal scene.

[Richard Lawson]

Right? Exactly.

[David Sims]

The urinal scene is the diner in Heat scene of Runaway Jury.

[Griffin Newman]

They talk about that. They were like halfway through filming and they were like, wait a second, we don't have the movie scenes.

[Richard Lawson]

What the hell are we thinking?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it's. I mean, here's the other thing. Dreyfus plays so old in this movie, and then you do the math and you're like, he's 38. 8. Like, how old was Dreyfus when they filmed this.

[David Sims]

That's a great question, because Dreyfus's age is always kind of hard to pin down because he went gray early and all that. But. All right. He was born in 47, so he's 4.

[Richard Lawson]

He's in early 40s. Goodman was, like, 35 when they filmed it. I think 36.

[David Sims]

Yeah. So Dreyus is early 40s.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Which. Yeah. Doesn't.

[Richard Lawson]

And Hunter was only, what, like, 32, I think.

[David Sims]

Yeah, good call.

[Griffin Newman]

Hunter is Redford and Newman.

[David Sims]

Hunter's a full 11 years younger than.

[Griffin Newman]

Dreyfus, and Redford and Newman are, like, 10 years old. Older than Dreyfus.

[David Sims]

Right, sure. And Goodman's kind of in the middle of them. He was born in, like, the early 50s.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. You'd have to. You'd have to cast that part differently.

[Richard Lawson]

Right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

Which.

[Richard Lawson]

But. But in terms of, like, actor charisma, you're right that it would work very well.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So the Goodman thing is also just destabilizing. I mean, my. My mental movie is the most extreme version of that and is on me. But also, like, as you said, it's only one year into Rose Anne, and yet this movie knows that America loves this guy so much that it acts.

[Richard Lawson]

As if everyone is, like, deeply familiar with him.

[Griffin Newman]

Is gonna be more important than being the supportive friend. He's certainly gonna, like, exceed being The Harry Connick Jr. In the Independence Day of this triangle. Right.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's funny because it's like, Goodman is obviously good in the movie because he's rarely bad.

[Griffin Newman]

And at this, one of our finest screen.

[David Sims]

But especially at this point. Point, he can't really miss. And of course, Goodman made movies like the Babe Ruth movie that did miss, where you're like, john Goodman is Babe Ruth. That's, like, the easiest shit in the world. It's like, yeah, but the movie stinks, you know? But, like.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

But, like, it's not like Goodman's bad in any of these things. Goodman's always good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Is it a mistake to have someone who's almost too good?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, in a way, there's that thing where, like, I remember watching Revenge of the Nerds as the. For the first time on, like, Comedy Central, and John Goodman pops up, like, six minutes, and I was like, oh, my God, cracking my knuckles. John Goodman movie. And then the movie proceeds, and you're like, oh, this must have been before he got famous. I'm ready for John Goodman to be all over this movie. But the movie doesn't understand what it has yet.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

But always in the Way it is sold. Clearly knew they had something, and yet the part is, like, too small for him. He is, like, too compelling.

[David Sims]

It's a problem almost. Right. He's overheating the movie in a weird.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, trying to basically is just like a sounding board for the other characters.

[Richard Lawson]

And to have him in this supporting friend instructor role.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

And to have the new shiny guy who is supposed to sweep all of us off of our feet totally along with Holly Hunter, to have him be, like, pretty inert.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, he's fine. I mean, but he, but it's, it's not like, you know, I'm trying to think of, like, someone who walks on screen and you're like, jesus Christ. Like, like that. Those people do. I mean, you know, Brad Pitt and Thelma and Louise or something. And. But to have, like, then good. You're like, can we just go back to Goodman?

[Griffin Newman]

You know, that's the wild thing is watching this. It almost feels like the MOV is framing him to be a Baxter.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And when I get to the point where I'm like, oh, wait, no, this movie is working towards them ending up together, that's where we're what we're supposed to be rooting for. It feels wrong. Like, it feels incorrect.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah, I, I, I, yeah, I agree. The calculation is off or something.

[Griffin Newman]

And I'm, like, so much more into even removing my projection of it leading in a romantic direction. Goodman, like, reconnecting with her and being like, you have to come back to the world of the living.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, I'm like, if you almost just remove the element of her falling in love with someone else. And it is just like the best friend and the lover of this dead guy working through their grief as his ghost kind of hovers around. That also maybe works a little better. Yeah, yeah. There is the part of this all coming from a movie that Dreyfus and Spielberg have watched 37 times and, like, live so large in their head that I don't think they were ever going to consider reworking the story that much.

[David Sims]

No, whatever. I mean, it's just sort of a quandary of, like, it's Steven Spielberg. He can get anyone. So of course John Goodman wants to do it. Yes. John Goodman will eventually be crestfallen that he thinks Spielberg just sees him as a big old, you know, guy in an orange and black.

[Griffin Newman]

Just wants him eating brontosaurus eggs.

[David Sims]

Right. But you're not going to say no to Spielberg. And so Spielberg can get kind of an overheated cast. And I think Spielberg often Wisely avoids that problem and has guys in his movie where you're like, well, that's a great actor who I don't know as well. And like, Spielberg's picked, well, you know, for these small roles.

[Richard Lawson]

Like, his casting is fascinating in that he, like. Like, I just, off the top of my head, like, watching Minority Report, and.

[David Sims]

You'Re like, dude, I was literally about to bring up Minority Reports.

[Richard Lawson]

Like. Like Katherine Morris, okay, that's Francis O'Connor in AI is Minority Port's a great.

[David Sims]

Example where it's like, you got Cruz, so you don't need anyone else, Right? Max Von Sydow, he wants, you know, this, like, guy he risked.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, he was playing. He's playing himself in that movie.

[David Sims]

He is.

[Richard Lawson]

He was doing that pre crime, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Colin Farrell. They paid Colin Farrell $2.5 million.

[David Sims]

This is a hot young thing. And Spielberg's like, I get it. But then everyone else, it's like, Neil McDonough, perfect.

[Griffin Newman]

Peter Stormare.

[David Sims]

Peter Stormare, perfect. But then also guys like Air Gross and Daniel London, like, where it's just like, these are not guys who necessarily, like, you could get a bigger person for that role. Right? But, like, they're perfect.

[Griffin Newman]

No, he's usually really good at that. And I also think he's usually good at it not being destabilizing. Like, he has such a big picture notion that he's like, if you're putting an overqualified person in a small role, it has to be like a small, high impact role. You know, it has to be like one scene in which a surprisingly big person shot shows up. But you understand why you cast Audrey Hepburn in that way.

[Richard Lawson]

Correct?

[Griffin Newman]

Because for those five minutes, the movie.

[Richard Lawson]

Is all, well, they didn't have the budget for any white cashmere, so they were like, well, Audrey has some that she'll bring.

[David Sims]

She fortunately has a briefcase.

[Richard Lawson]

She opened the door to her room and it was all sweaters.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm watching this and, like, the moment when Dreyfus explodes and he do blow up.

[David Sims]

And I think that set piece is very effective before he blows up. And the way he blows up is really. It's great because it's just like. It's not overplayed. It's just this moment where suddenly Dreyfus realizes, like, oh, I'm for real. And then that's that.

[Griffin Newman]

And he fucked himself saving Goodman's life.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, he did. He did the right kind of daring dude, right?

[Griffin Newman]

And he, like, suddenly just completely explodes. And they cut to Goodman pushing his face against the glass of his Cockpit reacting to having just seen this guy die.

[David Sims]

And that's why you cast Goodman.

[Griffin Newman]

And this is what I'm saying. Like, there's the automatic Goodman warmth. That's just like a fucking.

[David Sims]

It's that guy can he the house.

[Griffin Newman]

Totally. Right. It's a. It's a hearth. Right.

[Richard Lawson]

And the goofy sidekick is supposed to die. Totally not the big hero. There's like a shock in his face where he's like. But that was not what was supposed to happen.

[Griffin Newman]

That part of it is. Is fun. And he's good at all of that and setting up. And like, this is the warm, cuddly guy who you don't want to see D. Whatever. But then it is like moments like that. Moments like him trying to sort of shake Holly Hunter back into reality. It's almost like as beloved as he was. People didn't realize how much depth he. He had.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Where you're like, oh, Goodman can actually sell any emotion you want. He's not just a fun guy clocking.

[Richard Lawson]

Into work at the rock factory.

[Griffin Newman]

Down tail lunch pill that's made out of stones.

[Richard Lawson]

All those emotions. Being near a bird that says it's a living.

[Griffin Newman]

So that sequence is ordering ribs that are too big and they destabilize you.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

It's. Yeah. Dreyfus dying is very not yavad dabba do. We could say that it's a yabba dabba.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't. It's pretty yabba dabba dire.

[David Sims]

And I like cutting right to the forest. And he's just walking through there and then tenant whistling. All that Audrey has for him is a word.

[Griffin Newman]

I, I, I do love that.

[David Sims]

Which is such a stupid, layered joke that I'm only making because of Richard Flossen. That hap also plays the guy in Tenet, of course, who says tenant.

[Richard Lawson]

Decade of dreams.

[David Sims]

I just love Donovan's just sitting there in his arm just chair. And like, 20 years later, Nolan's like, hey, can you say tenant in my movie? Tenant. It's like, I've been waiting for this phone call.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm. I'm gonna put forward. Is Donovan another. When's he bad guy? Has he ever been bad in anything?

[David Sims]

I. I don't know that I've seen every Martin Donovan movie. I mean, but I. What I love about Martin Donovan is that he's in, like, the Hal Hartley movies, right? Like, you know, you watch early Donovan, you're like, fuck this guy. Rock. You know? And then he's great in, like, Portrait of a Lady.

[Griffin Newman]

I was gonna say older character actor. Martin Don Rudder's real range of what he's been asked to do. And he kind of always fucking nails it. Inherent Weiss.

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah. Love that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So he blow up and Audrey's there and she's sort of like, you're dead, but you are here to sort of guide made.

[Griffin Newman]

I guess you can't really talk to.

[David Sims]

People, but you can kind of like, kind of really throw a vibe.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, she's like, you'll become spiritist. You'll become inspiration. Yes.

[David Sims]

The divine breath.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And a cleverness, a clever, like, sort of quiet thing that they do is like time has just moved on.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Because I think this movie would stink really hard if it's like the day after and he's just like sitting at his funeral, Right. Like in Hollyhunder's just crying.

[Griffin Newman]

And there's even an elegance to. I mean, mean what she says, like five months. And he goes, it's been five months already. And she's like, wait, sorry, it's six months now.

[Richard Lawson]

Wait, I said that the romantic drama was on the Wayne, but actually Ghost was about what, what, like a year away? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Ghost is the year after. And Ghost, it's 90 or 91.

[David Sims]

Yeah, Ghost, 90.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. And that really digs into the moments after death in a way that this movie kind of skips past.

[David Sims]

I think Ghost is a more effective movie than this movie. Ghost is also just like kind of stupid. But Ghost rocks, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Ghost People get angry every time they say Ghost has rocks in his brains. But also Ghost is like. It's like trying to be every type of movie simultaneously. It is such a, like, kind of like thriller, comedy, romance, drama.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's. What a weird movie.

[Richard Lawson]

It's the movie you knew his Zucker brother was going to direct someday, you.

[David Sims]

Know, it also just has lots of subway, which is why I prefer Ghost to always.

[Griffin Newman]

I just did my annual rewatch of all three Naked Gun movies.

[Richard Lawson]

Pretty good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. The first, second, and third funniest movies ever made.

[Richard Lawson]

I mean. Yeah, you're not.

[Griffin Newman]

And. And Jim Abraham's died sadly very recently.

[David Sims]

That's true.

[Griffin Newman]

Very shortly after we in an episode talked about, is there any way we actually could cover their combined works? It is just so bizarre. The kind of like it's surreal trifurcation that happens between the three of them and then all three of them, like the one who directs Ghost and gets fucking like a Best Picture nomination, makes one of the highest grossing films, then just sort of like slows down to a crawl, makes two more movies over 10 years, never does it again. Jim Abraham slows way the fuck down. And the one you want to stop working won't stop making stuff.

[Richard Lawson]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

So six months have elapsed, so. Because, you know, Dorinda's sort of moving past his death a little bit. She's at the flight school now.

[Griffin Newman]

John Goodman took the job that Pete.

[David Sims]

Was supposed to take. Dreyfus was supposed to take. And who's at this flight school but Ted Baker, played by Brad Johnson.

[Richard Lawson]

This guy's popping who we encountered briefly earlier.

[David Sims]

We did.

[Griffin Newman]

He sees them dancing, who's kind of.

[David Sims]

Truly just a shitty Pete, where it's like, he's also a bit of a hotshot, and he's also kind of a little too big for his britches in the plane or whatever. But, like, none of that reads.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

Like, people are telling us that. I don't get it from that guy at all.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

He just kind of feels like an empty guy to me.

[Griffin Newman]

Is the part of him that makes him feel like a Baxter, where you're just like, there's something just a little blank about this guy, you know?

[David Sims]

And, like, he's pretty fudgeing blank.

[Griffin Newman]

The selling of him in the media and lead up to this movie is like, you're not going to believe how sexy this guy is. And it's like, he is incredibly handsome.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's, like, charming enough. He, like, holds the camera enough, but there's not, like an electric charge there.

[Richard Lawson]

And here's. Here's the thing. I'm just kind of hitting me now is I don't buy Dorinda being attracted to him.

[David Sims]

No, neither do I.

[Griffin Newman]

No. You know why?

[David Sims]

Outside of it, just sort of like, I might as well.

[Richard Lawson]

Like, he's hot. She's like, yeah, he's beautiful. But I don't think she'd be attracted to his personality.

[Griffin Newman]

No. And here's another reason why she wouldn't. The first 30 minutes of the movie show her staying with Richard Dreyfus, who looks like Richard Dreyfus and is the most irritated man in the world. So I'm like, okay. She has very specific taste. Men.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm not saying she's only going to fall for someone else who fits the Richard Dreyfus type.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But if you're that hung up on Richard Dreyfus, I don't think your panties drop for fucking Brad Johnson.

[Richard Lawson]

No, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

I think you're like, that guy's.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, you might find him. But I don't think you're gonna be like, this is my next great love Affair.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. She's clearly interested in difficult men.

[David Sims]

Now, here's the other thing. The rest of the movie is Dreyfus yelling very hard at people who can't hear him to kind of try to influence them. And a kind of boring romantic drama playing out between Hunter and Johnson. Goodman kind of vanishes from the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is like a real problem to my great disappointment.

[David Sims]

It's like, he should. There should be more space for him. There's less.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm kind of into the Dreyfus yelling stuff just because it's sort of fun that the movie is cucking him, that it's like making Dreyfus.

[David Sims]

That's your. I get your read. Yeah. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

For me, it's just like the moment where I go like, oh, it's not a secret masterpiece. Is when the romance becomes the central thing.

[David Sims]

Right. And I do feel like the movie just kind of runs out of steam. It does.

[Richard Lawson]

And he's not really interested in staging really more than one or two romance romantic scenes. You know, like, there's the big. There's the big dinner thing, and then he's like, okay, like, there's a little impediment to this relationship, but I'm not really gonna spend much more time on that, you know, And I think that's a problem because we need to fall in love with this guy and we don't.

[David Sims]

We do. And would a better actor. Who's a good actor for this role, like, who. Who fits? Is there someone who fits?

[Richard Lawson]

I think Tim Robbins would have been fun. Tim Robbins, like, you know, he was kind of cute in Bull Durham around then, you know? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, that's sort of the vibe you want is a guy who's a little bit of a doofus, but in a way that is, like, bizarrely compelling.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, so that's. This is the role that he wanted Cruz for originally. Is that right? But. But in the earlier MGM version, right before Cruz became.

[David Sims]

Look, it's not in the dossier, but according to one book. Yes, Cruz was considered for that role. I mean, Cruz is obviously way too famous now, but. Right. In the early 80s.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

You could, I guess, see it. Although he'd be really young. Young in the early 80s, but he was hot. I mean. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I do think you're on to something that he needs to be funny. He can't just be hot.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It's a really personality.

[Richard Lawson]

It's a really strange choice to cast, like a stone cold marble man hunk.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

And I know it's supposed to be offset The. The Drey. But like, it's just it. He's too alien in the world of the movie. That like someone like Tim Robbins or someone shaggy like this, that could. Who also has an appeal, a youthful appeal, I guess, at that time. Like, that works so much better even.

[Griffin Newman]

It'S complete opposite direction. But the reason I keep going back to the Newman Redford idea in my mind is like, Redford's obviously one of the most beautiful men in the history of movies, but also is just like a prick. Like, there is that like, difficult sort of thorny nature to him that like makes him more complicated. Yes, exactly. Which. Right. You need the guy to be like. Right. Goofier or more serious.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. Something you need. You need a. You need a strong personality.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, thank you. You need a strong personality. Yes.

[David Sims]

And I also think you maybe need something more dynamic in the plane sequences. Because the plane sequences get a little samey and there's the sort of big water landing at the end of the movie is like the big sort of new set piece idea. Right. And it's kind of effective.

[Griffin Newman]

Huh.

[David Sims]

But. Right. Don't you feel like after the first part of the movie where the plane stuff is kind of arresting, you're sort of like, well, I'm kind of used to the.

[Richard Lawson]

I don't. I also as a kid, you know, because when you're a kid, like a two hour movie feels like it's six hours long in kind of a cool way. Like you're really in it for a long time. I remembered like the build up to Holly Hunter jumping in the plane and flying off on her own to be much bigger. Watching it now, I was like, oh, she kind of just decides to do it and then it happens and then she crashes and then she's fine. I wanted more of occasion. Like, what is this particular fire? Why is it so bad?

[David Sims]

Like, there's a slightness to this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

There is.

[David Sims]

And maybe that's what did it in is like Spielberg's kind of like, well, I'm making kind of more of a regular person movie. And like, it's not a big epic and it's in between two giant projects of mine.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[David Sims]

I want it to be smaller and it just kind of feels smaller.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I think that's what I kind of like about it is it's the first time he's able to really try that, you know?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yes, I guess. Yeah. Like, what's the. Yeah, there really isn't. I mean, honestly, ET Is the closest example before this of him making a smaller scale movie. And he always calls E.T. like a tiny epic, like, because E.T. really is.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, that's the. That's the miracle of E.T.

[David Sims]

Right? Exactly.

[Richard Lawson]

It takes place in a suburban.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. And like, it's mostly just about kids, but obviously ET Also does have, like, a spaceship and an alien and visual effects and flying and all this stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's in service of a very small, intimate story.

[Richard Lawson]

It's about putting a little alien in a wig. That's what that movie's about.

[David Sims]

God, he looks so good. What if that's our bit rewatching that movie is E.T. hot, but he's in.

[Richard Lawson]

That movie. I was like, I cannot believe how funny this visual is. It is astounding. It is a sound and it's so cute. And it's. I just. You know what's crazy?

[Griffin Newman]

And look, we'll have devoted a full episode to.

[Richard Lawson]

At this point.

[Griffin Newman]

You'll all have listened to. Is probably 20 hours long. It's the greatest movie ever made. It is ET in the bed sheet dressed as a ghost. Is almost as funny as E.T. dressed like a lady.

[Richard Lawson]

It's so good.

[Griffin Newman]

So simple. But just the weird ET Walk under.

[Richard Lawson]

A blanket and knowing that the whole time Drew Barrymer thought it was real. Like, it's just like, yeah, you know, movie rules.

[Griffin Newman]

E.T. extraterrestrial.

[Richard Lawson]

It's good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah. That's a good one.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Always on the other hand, is just okay. Are there other things in Always we need to talk about plot. I'm truly.

[Griffin Newman]

I want to point out on. On Apple, I don't know if this is on the Blu Ray, if this is on other streaming versions of it right now, but if you watch the Apple TV version of Always at the end of the credits, the very end, after the Amblin logo and such, in what is clearly a more modern font, this is the final image on screen. Just very dire black white text quote, caution, colon inhaling of helium from balloons is dangerous.

[David Sims]

Common because they do that at stars.

[Griffin Newman]

Cause serious injury or death, period. End quote. Like a modern content warning. As if it was Disney being like, don't smoke cigars.

[Richard Lawson]

So the impressionable kids of today, who no doubt have watched Always all through the end credits and we're like, okay, now we're going to do the thing from with the Healer.

[Griffin Newman]

Am they see John Goodman talking in a squeaky voice and they're like, this is going to become a TikTok trend if we don't warn children.

[Richard Lawson]

You haven't it already. Is he always ing, I've done that.

[David Sims]

I mean, you guys have done that, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone's done.

[Richard Lawson]

I tried it once and it didn't work. And it. And I. And I was embarrassed because it was. I was the only one it didn't work for.

[Griffin Newman]

Can I. Can I say something?

[David Sims]

Go ahead.

[Griffin Newman]

Real helium voice, not done in post, but really actually sucking helium and saying something serious afterwards. Afterwards.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Almost as funny as ET Dressed up as a lady.

[David Sims]

There's a really.

[Griffin Newman]

I believe it kind of always works for me. Always.

[David Sims]

There's a. This is so obscure, but I'll just say it. In the early 90s or the. There. There was, like, a BBC. There was a rule that the. The Irish Republican Party. Sorry, the Irish Republican army. And then. And thus Sinn Fein, its political wing, could not be, like, shown on the BB bc.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Because, like, the Crown, I guess, you know, because Britain's state. It is Britain's state. Whatever they were, like, that is an enemy of the state. We cannot. So, like, they would have to have weird workarounds where, like, a shadowy person, you know, would. Would be like. And this is what Jerry Adams said would, like, recite his words, right? Like, they, like, couldn't. And it was, like this absurd kind of illustration of, like, how Britain did not know how to deal with Irish independence and all this stuff. Right. And in the Day Today, Chris Morris is brilliant. Have you ever heard of the Day Today?

[Griffin Newman]

I have. I've never seen it, but I know.

[David Sims]

Satire of news from the early 90s. Steve Coogan does Jerry Adams, and they're like, to combat the ira, Jerry Adams must take a hit of helium before he says, you know, anything on camera. And it's just Coogan taking a hit of the helium going. You know, Sinn Finn is a legitimate political party. And, like, in the helium voice. And it's so fucking funny. And it's a funny piece of satire. And I always think about it.

[Griffin Newman]

I have bad news.

[David Sims]

What's that?

[Griffin Newman]

Hold on.

[Ben Hosley]

What is happening right now?

[Griffin Newman]

As featured on the recent Blank Check Substack holiday gift gift guide, I purchased a new toy replica of Willem Dafoe's pumpkin bomb from the Sam Raimi Spider man movies.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

But the thing that activates it is if you roll it and I accidentally hit it with my finger, and then it does a countdown and then has a fake default.

[David Sims]

You're saying that you pulled a bit of a Denzel. You rolled it. You were feeling all right, and then you were like, I'm gonna roll it.

[Griffin Newman]

This just might. I'm realizing now for the first time, this might be my version of you giving David the Slinky. That I have a thing on the desk that at very little prompting can suddenly make a ridiculous series of noises.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah. And maybe we move it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. To my lap.

[David Sims]

Aw. So, yeah. Is there. Dreyfus is yelling at folks like, what do you want me to say?

[Richard Lawson]

I was going to bring up that. Although maybe it's not worth it because it's depressing. But like, if you look at. At what Holly Hunter's career was after this.

[Griffin Newman]

I want to do Holly Hunter career rundown. This is good.

[Richard Lawson]

It's depressing fast.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

In a way that it was like, oh, she was an actress who. They were like, you're how old? You're 40. Okay, goodbye.

[Griffin Newman]

I want to. I want to talk through this. Okay. Thank you for bringing this up. First of all, can you gentlemen guess what Holly Hunter's last theatrically released film was?

[David Sims]

Was it? No. Well, Incredibles. Correct, Right? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Which one was seven years ago?

[David Sims]

2018.

[Griffin Newman]

She's not appeared in a movie in seven years.

[David Sims]

She's done lots of television.

[Griffin Newman]

She's done a lot of tv.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

She's done a lot of TV and has reprised the voice of Helen Par in like seven different videos.

[Richard Lawson]

Has she done TV recently?

[Griffin Newman]

She did her work on Succession. That was great. But that ended in 2019.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. Of course.

[Griffin Newman]

She did two episodes of the Comey Rule. In 2020, she did Mr. Mayor, the Weird ill begotten Ted Dan.

[Richard Lawson]

A nice idea in theater theory, but didn't quite right.

[David Sims]

Nobody really.

[Griffin Newman]

2018, she did here and now, which was that Alan Ball Here and Now.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it was the Allen Ball thing. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's like Incredibles 2. In 2018 is her last theatrically released movie. 2017, song to song, which is obviously a strange case. But then big sncc.

[Richard Lawson]

She's in a bizarre movie with Carrie Coon.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it called Strange Weather or Breakable you?

[Richard Lawson]

It's called Strange Weather and it's about a woman who's grieving herself son who wants to get revenge on the person who stole her son's idea for a hot dog business legitimately. That's what that movie is about. That.

[Griffin Newman]

That I will agree with you. That does sound bizarre.

[Richard Lawson]

It's not good.

[Griffin Newman]

But my like realization watching this of like, does any movie with Holly Hunter in this era immediately gain a star and a half from me? Right, right. Her first film is the Burning then like uncredited voice in Blood Simple.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Swing Shift, which she covered in. And she is incredible in it.

[David Sims]

She's awesome in Swing Shift, where You're.

[Griffin Newman]

Just immediately like, who the Is this? Raising Arizona, Obviously, she is incredible in that. Yes. End of the Line. A film my father worked on.

[David Sims]

Oh, I don't.

[Griffin Newman]

That I've seen the Super. You'd actually probably like it. It's a railroad movie with Kevin Bacon, Holly Hunter, Wolker Brimley and Mary Steenbergen and Levon from the Band.

[Richard Lawson]

If you've not seen this.

[Griffin Newman]

Then after that Broadcast news.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Ms. Firecracker.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

1989 is something called animal Behavior. Karen Allen, Armand Asante, Josh Mistel and Holly Hunter. The four names on the post.

[David Sims]

The big four.

[Griffin Newman]

The big four. And then always 89. Right. 91. Once around. I don't know what that is.

[David Sims]

Once around is a Lassie Halster movie starring Richard Dreyfuss, Dickie Dreyfus, about a woman who falls for and eventually marries an overbearing older man who proceeds to rub her family the wrong way. I don't know who played that role. The older.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I can't imagine. 93. She wins best actress for the Piano. The same year she gets a supporting actress nomination for the Firm.

[Richard Lawson]

And credit great, great credit to Jane Campion for seeing some of those remarkable performances that could not be more different from what the Piano asks her to play and being like, oh, no, there's something in there.

[Griffin Newman]

She's the least obvious casting choice in the world for that film.

[Richard Lawson]

Fascinating. And then Firm is very, like, up her alley. She's wonderful.

[Griffin Newman]

It's an interesting. Because she is not someone I think of as being chameleonic at all. You hire her for the Holly Hunter thing.

[Richard Lawson]

Yes, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

There is a wide range of how the Holly Hunter thing can be applied. And within that she can hit any emotion you want. But she's not someone who transforms or disappears.

[Richard Lawson]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

And part of that is probably just how distinctive her voice is.

[David Sims]

It's the voice. And she's got a particular sort of physical.

[Griffin Newman]

You take that away in the Piano and suddenly it frees her up in this way that she. It's just. We talked about it for a full episode. But you're like. It is so bizarre. That's her only Oscar win and there was no other performance in her career like. Like that. But then you're like still on this good run of Copycat Home for the Holidays. Crash, I would say the moment where it starts to go a little pear shaped. Another film we've covered a life less ordinary.

[David Sims]

Right. But what. But Crash is getting her in trouble. As much as I like that movie masterpiece, it's a right. A fascinating movie, but that movie, at the time, people are like, you are insane for being in this film.

[Richard Lawson]

It pushes her too far into, like, esoteric to be clear. When was Living Out Loud did you say that one?

[Griffin Newman]

That is the following year 98.

[Richard Lawson]

Because she there was like, she had like, some mild awards buzz for that and it never materialized. So did Queen Latifah, I believe. Yes, but. And that was kind of it in terms of that for a long time.

[Griffin Newman]

She enters this phase basically starting at that point, which has now continued for like 25 years plus, where every couple of years she will pop up again and people will be like, oh, right, Holly Hunter. Holly Hunter is one of our best living actors. And then immediately forget her again.

[Richard Lawson]

It was like, take her for granted. She got the 13 nomination. And then many years later, Holly Hunter.

[Griffin Newman]

We should use this.

[Richard Lawson]

And then like, the Big Sick didn't quite materialize.

[Griffin Newman]

Sort of like. And a lot of is just like a lot of movies that kind of like, don't totally exist.

[Richard Lawson]

Is there's not a movie where she drinks piss and then gets blown.

[Ben Hosley]

What is happening?

[Griffin Newman]

I have some terrible news for you.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, there is one.

[Griffin Newman]

There is one.

[Richard Lawson]

Is that what Living Out Loud is about?

[Griffin Newman]

In her defense, she thought it was Granny's peach.

[David Sims]

Can we discuss something about Holly Hunter that we, I think, haven't discussed? Maybe we haven't.

[Griffin Newman]

I can't remember. Okay.

[David Sims]

She was the original voice of Chicken Little. Right. In this sort of original formulation of chicken of Mark Dindall's Chicken Little.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm excited about where this episode's going. You just watched Chicken Little for the first time. Is that correct?

[David Sims]

I wouldn't say just, but I would say like. So I'm at the mercy of Disney's Carousel sometimes where, like, I'm trying to show my daughter X movie and she'll see a picture of Y movie. She sees a picture of a cute little chicken with glasses, wearing a shirt.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And she points at it and goes, I want that. And I was like, you know what? I. I don't think I ever saw Chicken Little. How bad could it be? Mark Dindall, director of the Emperor's new group. I put it on. What the fuck happened? Not just dog.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Is a movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Which it is.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Insanely terrible looking.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Everything about it embarrassing looking.

[Griffin Newman]

Everything about it's bad.

[David Sims]

She doesn't love it, to be clear either.

[Griffin Newman]

Good. I am so happy.

[Richard Lawson]

I love. I love Kid Logic. She didn't really like it. We only watched it seven times, pretty.

[Griffin Newman]

Much I have 10 terrible news. My knee just hit the desk.

[David Sims]

That thing. Jesus. Has got to go. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm gonna push back. I just. We have to let the laugh play out. David.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Time for a quints check in. I know you love your quints.

[David Sims]

I do. I love quints. I, you know, wear all these nice things from Quince.

[Griffin Newman]

Now tell me what you've been rocking lately. Cashmere sweaters on you I never could have believed.

[David Sims]

I have some nice shirts from them that are really soft.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow. And look good because you usually wear those, like, very hard, rigid wood shirts. And I feel like I've sensed a new ease, a lightness in your steps since switching over to quints.

[David Sims]

Absolutely. Because, you know, with Quint, it's high end, versatile stuff, but it's affordable.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You can get all these luxury essentials that sync with your vibe and your wallet.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, it sounds like you're talking around the best part. What I call the best part, that all Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quint cuts the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us.

[David Sims]

Yep. So Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, responsible manufacturing practices. On top of that, they got those nice premium fabrics and finishes. And I keep on swinging back to quints. I gotta be honest, you've been another scoop.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Of those sweaters, I might get a pair of pants.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I noticed you've been calling up quints and saying, give me another scoop of pants. And they go, that's not how our service works.

[David Sims]

No, what you should do is indulge. Indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.com check for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U I N C E.com check to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com check.

[Griffin Newman]

There we go. Chicken Little only makes sense through the prism of its moments, right? Which is they're losing Pixar. That is the moment where, like, Eisner had gotten cocky and been like, Pixar is going to have a flop and once they have one movie fail, we'll have them over the barrel in terms of renegotiations. And then they kept succeeding and they hated Eisner so much that they were like, we are going anywhere else. And that's sort of Eisner's last bid before they push him out, largely because of him fucking up the Pixar deal. And that movie is Them being like, we need to figure out how to make our own Pixar in house. And yes, it was originally supposed to be Holly Hunter with an entirely different premise. I almost want to say a different design style, probably. I think it was Dindel from the beginning. But Emperor's new groove is obviously like a very serious sort of, like, Mayan epic that wasn't working. And then they bring in Mark Dindel and he's like, what if it's all funny bits and reworks the movie in one year and does this, like, amazing software.

[David Sims]

Yeah, Holly and Hunter. Chicken Little had a big bow on her hair, right?

[Griffin Newman]

They like subtle stuff. They made Dindle Dindle. His own movie.

[David Sims]

Stop using the word Dindle.

[Griffin Newman]

And they just kept being like, I don't know, more aliens. Who's on sitcoms right now?

[David Sims]

It's not. It's such a weird movie because it's like he thinks the sky is falling and then he's humiliated.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben, Richard, do you know what the plot of Disney's Chicken Little is?

[Richard Lawson]

I mean, I know the story of Chicken Little.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Hosley]

No.

[David Sims]

He thinks the sky is falling. He runs for everyone to save their lives. He causes all this chaos, and it turns out that everyone thinks that potentially just like a tree branch landed on his head and he was just freaking out over pebble or whatever. Then 45 minutes of the movie is him trying to join the baseball team to impress his widowed chicken father, played by Gary Marshall.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, well, like, original Barenaked Ladies song play. It's the era where Disney's, like, musicals.

[David Sims]

Is this Bare Naked Ladies? And I was like, it can't be.

[Richard Lawson]

Like, Little Miss Wait. And Jessica Lang got an Oscar nomination for this.

[Griffin Newman]

Chicken Little for writing.

[David Sims]

There is an original Barenaked lady song. There's a whole sequence that's like, just them playing baseball.

[Richard Lawson]

You haven't mentioned that the chicken is.

[Griffin Newman]

Zach Braff, but peak scrub Zach Braff is the chicken. So you're watching this and you're like, where the fuck is this all going? The hook to the Disney Chicken Little is that Chicken Little was right about the sky falling. What he witnessed was a malfunctioning of one of the video screens that alien aliens have placed in the sky to obfuscate the fact that they're getting ready to invade us. And Chicken Little is the only one who's aware that there's an alien invasion happening and no one believes him.

[Ben Hosley]

As I'm listening to this, I'm just picturing an empty desert and just, like, wind blowing.

[David Sims]

It's one of those movies, like a Twin Peaks, like, Ominous wishing. It's one of those movies where you're like, God, this is interminable. And it's like 70 minutes long.

[Richard Lawson]

It's so short.

[Griffin Newman]

It sucks. Yeah. Anyway, I feel like there are. You can see online the animation tests of Holly Hunter as Chicken Little that.

[Richard Lawson]

I would like to see. I mean, I'm sure that was good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

But we just need more of her. We need, like, another big movie role or something. Because she's like, this movie is. A lot of her stuff is a reminder. But, like, watching this movie, I was like, I think that when she's really on, she's my favorite actress.

[Griffin Newman]

I 100 same thought.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. Like, she had the same thought.

[Griffin Newman]

I was like, unquestionably. She's in my, like, hall of fame 10.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Easily.

[David Sims]

Yeah, of course.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Look, she. The first time I watched this movie, yeah, I was like, I love this performance so much. I would, like, nominate for an Oscar. Like, even though the movie doesn't totally work for me and, like, on Rewatch, I think I got grumpier that it sort of doesn't do enough with her that she is kind of the girl. Like, as much as they. They try to kind of get beyond that, like, in the second half of the movie, she's always kind of defined by the boys. She's, you know, quote unquote, falling for.

[Richard Lawson]

Or resisting or whatever and worried about. And.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I think that's the other part of it is, like, she has so much energy on screen, and even if with Richard Dreyfuss, a lot of that is negative energy energy. When the second half of the movie asks her to just go gaga for Brad Johnson, you're just like, this makes her feel small.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, why is she becoming reactive to someone who's, like, sturdy versus, like, Dreyfus is at least conjuring emotion. Even if the emotion is, I want to strangle this man.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You're like, you can't be passive about him.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, exactly. And it's like, oh, just settle down with some boring guy, you know? And I don't know, it's just. It's a bad match. And it's weird that, like, I guess. I don't know. I mean, maybe they did see it when filming, and we were like, well, it's too late now. Like, we have this Marlboro contract and we can't get out of it, but I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

But he did.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but what if it is that Marlboro's like, this is the girl. Like, you know, like the fucking actual Marlboro man comes in and Spielberg's like, I can't argue with Big Tobacco.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it Flight of the Intruders?

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a movie that's like the only.

[David Sims]

Other planet of the Intruder with Danny Glover and Willem. Dylan Defoe and Brad Johnson.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I was gonna say it's like the one John Milius movie where his name is above the title. And I feel like was the one time after this that they were like, even though that wasn't a hit, I.

[David Sims]

Guess as a guy that Milius would be like, I love this guy. Like, he's American as hell.

[Richard Lawson]

You know, even that name sounds made up. You know, it's just every time I.

[Griffin Newman]

Say it, I. I feel like I'm saying the wrong name.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That I'm correcting it to something more basic. But it is like, right. He. He does that two years after this is it. And then he's basically immediately like a TV direct to video guy.

[Richard Lawson]

It's one of Spielberg's strangest bits of casting.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's definitely one of his biggest misfires because as you say, Griff, like a Ty Sheridan or a Jeremy Irvine, I'm like, you know, those are guys who have been good in movies, like Ty Sheridan, obviously, starting with Tree of Life or whatever. Like Jeremy Irvine. I don't think I. I think Jeremy Irvine is like one of the worst actors who works. I really apologize to him if he like ever hears me say that, you know, because I feel bad saying it because I'm sure it's fine.

[Griffin Newman]

Blink check. Decade of Dreams, right? There's a part in which we still just feel like this show is only listened to by the people on our Reddit.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh.

[Griffin Newman]

Increasingly we will find out people are listeners. And immediately David and I do the calculus of what is the worst thing we've ever said about that person.

[Richard Lawson]

You need that Tina Fey. I don't think so, honey. Like you're too famous to be saying.

[Griffin Newman]

Just try not to take stray shots of people who aren't the explicit subject of the episode.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And most people who we say something negative about, I've always said we will also say something positive about in the balance of the thing because there's very few people we holistically disregard. I agree with you. I think Jeremy Irvine is maybe the most boring.

[Richard Lawson]

But if you want to offset that, I think unfortunately you've just kicked open the door. I am going to come on and do a Stonewall episode with you. Kidding Never.

[David Sims]

I'm also like, they're finally making another Silent Hill movie. Christophe Ganz, who made the first movie, which I think is like kind of a masterpiece.

[Griffin Newman]

He's coming back.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Cuz he didn't do the.

[David Sims]

He didn't do the, like, truly execrable sequel, which is one of the surgeons.

[Griffin Newman]

Redemption.

[David Sims]

Retribution. It might be retribution.

[Griffin Newman]

Reawakening.

[David Sims]

I truly have to look it up. Revelation.

[Griffin Newman]

Revelation.

[David Sims]

Which is one of those, like, if we do it on Patreon one day, which, hey, if there's a third one, we probably could.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

It's one of those. After the first movie, we're like, that was pretty. That was awesome. Like, this is. And then you queue up the second movie in one minute and you're like, we've made a huge mistake. Like, what the fuck is going on?

[Griffin Newman]

It's cracked. All done.

[David Sims]

Yes. Yeah, but fucking Jeremy Irvine's the star. And I'm like, God damn it. Like, we couldn't get someone better anyway.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, look, this is what it boils down to, right? Like you saying people with personality. Dreyfus is such a good example of, like, what an unlikely movie star in a way that, like, removed from context. I think it's just kind of confounding to people where you're like, why was this guy so big and so celebrated? And it was like he was cast very well a couple times in seismic movies where he was kind of kept on rails. And what you needed was someone coming in with a lot of personality, Right?

[Richard Lawson]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, he is not an obvious movie star, but like, those parts demanded someone with a weird energy that does just kind of make you lean in the complete unknown, like, freak show thing. Right?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And I think sometimes in this, like, corridor of, like, when Spielberg falls into the boring boy problem, it's that he picks guys who, like, on a surface level are like, this guy seems like a movie star. He's got good shoulders and a good jaw and a healthy voice and he works well on camera. But there is just kind of a blandness.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And sometimes it is like someone like Ty Sheridan, who can really come alive in smaller projects, but when you put him in the machinery of that kind of thing, they can't figure out how to build a character in that structure. Structure. Especially when the character on paper is just kind of like the hero or the cute guy, you know?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's why, like, Shia, it did feel like was him sort of finding a new Dreyfus where he's like, this guy isn't a normal leading man. There's something kind of annoying and manic about him.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, they both are people who seemingly have severe mental illness that can manifest in a way that is sometimes electrifying on screen. But it does feel like he specifically, specifically has a problem whenever he's trying to cast, quote unquote, like a new movie star, like a new matinee idol. And the LaBelle thing, beyond him being a good pick is like, well, he's casting someone to play him. He's a weird, complicated character. He's not looking for someone to just be handsome and charming.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. And like you can only find. And he didn't even find him.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

One Harrison Ford every 50 years with established movie stars.

[Griffin Newman]

He can do it. He's very good at seeing someone do something while another movie being like, I.

[David Sims]

Know exactly what project to give that person.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Richard Lawson]

But he wouldn't be good at minting a Harrison Ford, like weirdly, weirdly find it. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Cuz he's even like taking Dreyfus from.

[David Sims]

You could argue he minted Harrison Ford in that, like Star wars obviously mints Harrison Ford, but there's a world, I guess, where it. It's like he was just Han Solo and no one could ever figure out what to do with the guy. And it's like Spielberg using him correctly is what makes Harrison Ford Harrison Ford.

[Griffin Newman]

I think. I would argue he is very good at solidifying people. Right. Like, he can't kind of like build someone from scratch or like locate it in a vacuum, but he can sort of go like, you know what they should do? They should go 20 degrees off from what they're doing right now. And placed into this context, they might come alive and expand.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's done that a lot where he's helped movie stars unlock new chambers.

[Richard Lawson]

The Lois Smith before minor Minority Report is not the Lois Smith after minority.

[Griffin Newman]

Right now that's like guaranteed $20 million opening because. Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Because she's going to be the new king.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Actually, wait, that sounds great.

[David Sims]

Always. I'm just reading from the dossier sort of. Release part opens Christmas season 1989. Grosses just 3.7 million on a thousand plus screens. So it has legs because it ends up at 43. But I think it's kind of DOA in like what did it cost? 30.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So you know, it kind of made its budget back worldwide probably, you know, plus, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[Griffin Newman]

It received two Saturn Award nominations and nothing else from anybody.

[David Sims]

David Denby, who used to, you know, fucking execute some kill shots, says was There no one among Spielberg's associates with the intellectual stature to convince him that having cried at a guy named Joe when he was 12 years old was not a good enough reason for him to remake it.

[Richard Lawson]

Damn.

[David Sims]

Critics used to be really mean, man. Sheila Benson had the obvious. But I think necessary a better title would be Forever, which is roughly its running time.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

You might want to set off the goblin bomb again.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't tempt me. It is. It's basically two hours on the nugget, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's like two hours, five minutes. It's pretty much the exact same length as a guy named.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I mean there is this sort of sub genre it falls into. And I've been thinking about this recently because of the movie I'm about to cite. But like remakes that are directors who have been obsessed since childhood with a movie and sort of make their own version of it to try to work through. Why am I so hung up on this?

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And like I think Eggers Nosferatu is that. I think Jackson's King Kong as that. Like movies that almost feel like them expanding the lore of like when I was a child, I interpreted it this way or I didn't know why this movie made me cry.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're sort of doing this like very loving, faithful expansion, you know, and like blowing it up to a bigger scale in a way that almost feels like making a big budget like dissertation.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. And I think it's why it 1. That's one of the reasons why. Why Spiel, Spielberg's most profound and I think best movie ever. AI Is saying goodbye to that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[Richard Lawson]

He's like, okay, you get to do this one more time. You get to return to the childhood thing and kind of try to excavate something. But then we're saying good night, it's over. I mean he. He didn't quite do that with the rest of his career. But like, you know what I mean? Like just like he. He did recognize that. Oh something like always was like I was trying to grasp for something irretrievable. And yes.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's just fascinating how completely the Schindler experience just connects him to something deeper. And I do think when we covered the second half of his career, the Times post that that he tries to go back to more of a like Amblini. Spielberg are always. I'd say other than Tintin, which is kind of its own weird beast, I think sort of being activated by the different technology when it feels. Feels like now this is kind of the insincere version of him versus the Color Purple where you're like, stop pretending to be a grown up.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, it's like, it does feel like he is firmly in a sort of world of grown up ideas now. Right. And when he's like, I want to make a classic movie for children, it feels a little hollow.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. There's no, like watching Empire of the Sun. There's really not much indication that that same person would make Munich.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right.

[Richard Lawson]

You know, which maybe is a weird comparison, but like.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, but I think, I think is a. Is a good point. Yes. And like the version of Always he makes after Schindler is totally different. But. But then you're also just like, post Schindler, why am I trying to remake.

[Richard Lawson]

This Schindler forever complicated his nostalgia.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

He was like, oh, actually all that. That era that I pine after of was horror. You know, there was so much horror happening in the world.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

But yeah, that's. And again, that's why I think, think AI is really like the. The key. Not even, maybe even more than Fabelman's in a way. Although the two are in dialogue with each other, I think.

[Griffin Newman]

But yeah.

[David Sims]

Should we play the box office game?

[Griffin Newman]

So I did see what was number one, because in reading pieces about the movie at the time, I saw people being like, it's pretty embarrassing that the Spielberg movie was beaten out by this.

[David Sims]

Okay, well, always opens number five. So it was beaten out by four things. Okay, well, what are you thinking?

[Griffin Newman]

Tango and Cash.

[David Sims]

So Tango and Cash is new this week, but it is number two at the box office.

[Richard Lawson]

Up Django and Cash is. Who is that? Is that Mel Gibson?

[David Sims]

Stallone and Russell?

[Richard Lawson]

Stallone and Russell. And it's really crass movie. Memory serves me.

[David Sims]

It's crass, but a lot of fun.

[Griffin Newman]

And Stallone was coming off a bit of a bad run, so people were, I think, underestimating that movie and overestimating like, it's Spielberg making a weepy. This thing's going to own the holiday season.

[David Sims]

What's the joking community where like Joel McHale sees Rob Cordry and they're like, tango, Sundance. And he's like, we were in two different, like, duos.

[Richard Lawson]

Like, I can't remember what they did.

[David Sims]

Something like that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I think so.

[David Sims]

Anyway, number one, though, is a holdover comedy.

[Griffin Newman]

Big hit, big hit comedy sequel. It's not Ghostbusters 2. That was a summer release.

[David Sims]

Yeah, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's a sequel. It's not Beverly Hills cup two. No big. It. It A two.

[David Sims]

I think it is it is the second. I'm pretty sure. But it's not. Doesn't have like a two in the title.

[Griffin Newman]

They dropped a deuce. But it's the second.

[Richard Lawson]

It's not Music Box two.

[David Sims]

Not yet.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not Jewel of the Nile.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

No. But it doesn't have a two in the title.

[David Sims]

No. Oh, you know what? I take it back. This is the third entry. I'm so sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, well, thank you.

[Richard Lawson]

That.

[David Sims]

Sorry, I had to triple check because I doesn't have a number.

[Griffin Newman]

Appreciate you doing the work. Appreciate you doing the work. Doesn't have a number. It's the third, I'm sure.

[David Sims]

But Ben seen it.

[Griffin Newman]

You're sure?

[David Sims]

I don't feel like Ben loves this franchise.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not Cheech and Chong.

[David Sims]

No, but it's a talked about.

[Griffin Newman]

How much you love.

[David Sims]

We've covered another movie with this star that Ben did love.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a Chevy.

[David Sims]

It's a Chevy Chase.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a Christmas vacation.

[David Sims]

It is National Lampoon's Christmas vacation.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, a big movie.

[Ben Hosley]

I love those movies.

[David Sims]

Okay. Yeah. I wasn't sure where you were.

[Richard Lawson]

Christmas is the best one, I think.

[David Sims]

You think it's the best one?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Who?

[Richard Lawson]

Well, it's the one I've seen the most.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, we'll never talk about this. This franchise.

[David Sims]

We'll never talk about this franchise now. This one is directed by your shitter.

[Richard Lawson]

Will never be full.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Jeremiah Chick.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. This is the movie that Chris Columbus famously quits days into filming or days.

[David Sims]

Before filming, basically being like, I cannot work with Chevy Chase. And Chris Columbus seems like basically the nicest man in Hollywood.

[Griffin Newman]

I have only heard that he might be the nicest person on planet Earth.

[David Sims]

I have met Chris Columbus.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, he is a truly. You can just tell. Like a truly men. She Dude. Like a really great guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Borderline saintly.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

And you're talking about the explorer.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. And everything he did was good. And all of his discoveries were his.

[Griffin Newman]

Alone, in my opinion. I think we should give him 10 days.

[Richard Lawson]

He's a credit to the Italian statues.

[David Sims]

Columbus month and. Right. He quit it. So it was directed by Jeremiah Chik, who has like one of the most insane filmographies of all time. Because it's this and then Benny and June.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And then Diabolic. The remake of Speaking of Isabella.

[Richard Lawson]

Jonny.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And then the. Not Marvel's but Britain's the Avengers with Ralph Fiennes, Uma Thurman and Sean Connery, which is a classic. Like half the movie is gone. Right. Like where it's like, it's 82 minutes or whatever. And you're like, what just happened? And they're like, we don't know. We don't know what just happened.

[Griffin Newman]

It's 82 minutes. But then you check your clock and you're like, were they counting the time? I was online for concessions. Are they baking the trailers into the.

[David Sims]

Runtime of the movie? Like, just such a weird, weird directorial career. Anyway.

[Griffin Newman]

And that basically ends his career.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he. He directed the, like, ESPN Bronxes Burning series. Like, he still worked. But anyway, that movie's number one. Chris Xmas Vacation.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

A hit Tango and ca.

[Griffin Newman]

Number two certainly, like, lasted. Yeah. I feel like has become a. A kind of a tradition.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. I watch it most. Most Christmases. Y. Tango and Cash. I meant.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, of course.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Number three. It's a film. I actually mentioned a very, very dark comedy director career. Yes. Danny DeVito's War of the Roses.

[Richard Lawson]

That's a great movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And obviously, DeVito is someone we will one day do on Blank Check.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

He's not like, someone rushing to. But it's an interesting career.

[Ben Hosley]

It's a fun, short one.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the other thing. It's a nice little.

[Richard Lawson]

He is fun and short.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, that's my friend Sarah Rubin. The great Sarah Rubin, past and future. Yes. Said Rube sent the text. Have you guys ever considered Danny DeVito Colon short series for a little man?

[David Sims]

Good call.

[Richard Lawson]

That's good.

[David Sims]

I just watched the Abbott elementary crossover episode with It's Always Sunny.

[Griffin Newman]

Congratulations.

[David Sims]

Which really did a perfect job watching It's Always Sunny and kind of being like, this is which. What every character would do. And it's like, yeah, Mac would go with the principal because they're both schemers.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, the. The nice teachers would try to teach Charlie how to read. Like, and it's like, Danny DeVito, what does he do? He gets in a fight with a janitor and starts putting batteries in the garden. Like, it's like, Danny Veto's having fun.

[Griffin Newman]

I saw. I read an interview with Quinta. I've not watched the episode yet, but I. I read an interview with her where they were like, were you worried all about how you make these two tones compatible? And that show is so much more explicit and has a very different audience. And she was like, here was the thing. We cracked immediately. Our show's a mockumentary, which means these characters know that they're on camera.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Which means they're behaving slightly better.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, that works.

[David Sims]

The best version of that joke Is that Glenn Howard and his character spots the cameras immediately. He's like, I can't be filmed. And just, like, runs off camera.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, my God. Wait, that's so Then every.

[David Sims]

Every other time he's briefly on camera, he once again, he clocks them and he, like, runs away. It's really funny.

[Richard Lawson]

Have you seen the Sunny episode with the.

[David Sims]

I have not yet.

[Griffin Newman]

I think that doesn't air.

[David Sims]

I think it hasn't aired yet, but I'm very excited.

[Griffin Newman]

Not until summer. There's a weirdly long gap between, oh.

[David Sims]

Very excited for whatever that is. And also within the world of AB elementary, it does make sense that they're just like, are you the guys who run that terrible bar in South Philly? Like, you. I've seen you on, like, TV, on the news.

[Griffin Newman]

Very much want to do DeVito. DeVito is a real, like, one year off of a March Madness winner. We're going to look at the schedule and go, like, you know what? We could just knock DeVito out in five weeks and then do this.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it'll happen.

[Griffin Newman]

It'll happen. Also, War of the Roses remake.

[David Sims]

Oh, what's that? Well, of course, a musical or whatever with Brian Darcy James.

[Griffin Newman]

You're forgetting the very day of Wednesday.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

Very obvious. Announced War of the Roses remix starring Benedict Cumberbatch and Olivia Colman. Okay, that is real. And not a thing that Richard made up as a joke for the podcast. I'm forgetting who's directing it.

[Richard Lawson]

It's the guy who made the British Avengers.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's literally. They're calling it, like, the Roses now or something.

[David Sims]

It is called the Roses. It's directed by.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, no, he just made a face.

[Griffin Newman]

David.

[Richard Lawson]

He made a really.

[Griffin Newman]

David. Of all the names, he did the deepest inhale.

[David Sims]

J. Roach.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, my God.

[David Sims]

What the fuck is happening in our culture?

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, no, here's the thing. Here's the. Here. Here is the thing. Okay. If you were like, Jay Roach is remaking War of the Roses with Ben Stiller and. And Reese Witherspoon or whatever, right? I'd be like. Like, sure, fine. Whatever that makes sense. To do the Tony British casting of it and then cast J. Ro Horrifying.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Feels so at odds with itself.

[Richard Lawson]

And it's going to take place during the 2008 election.

[David Sims]

I don't know, man. I don't know. Maybe it'll be great.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, at least it seemingly stopped him from making oceans, too.

[David Sims]

Is that a thing that was going to happen? The Gosling.

[Griffin Newman]

Gosling.

[David Sims]

And okay, number four, the box Office is a sequel. We covered it on this podcast.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a sequel that we've covered on this podcast. It's a big movie in 1989.

[David Sims]

1989.

[Griffin Newman]

It's once again, not Ghostbusters 2.

[David Sims]

No, but it is a 2.

[Griffin Newman]

It is a deuce. They dropped a deuce. It's a what? That's. That's. Don't give me that look.

[David Sims]

Rolling my eyes, don't poop joke.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't give me that look. It's a big sequel.

[David Sims]

It's a big sequel to. It was a big hit. Not a hit on the scale of the original.

[Griffin Newman]

Did we cover it? Main feeder.

[David Sims]

Yep. Main feed.

[Griffin Newman]

Main feed. Main feed.

[David Sims]

Main feed.

[Griffin Newman]

89.

[David Sims]

You like it more than I do.

[Griffin Newman]

I like it more than you do. Oh. Oh. It is. Back to the Future, Part two.

[David Sims]

Part two.

[Griffin Newman]

Part two. They dropped a deuce.

[David Sims]

Number five, always Number six is Disney's the Little Mermaid. Incredible movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. How long has it been?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. When did that happen?

[David Sims]

Been out for six weeks.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

It's very early in its run. It's made about $30 million. It's going to make, you know, more than 100.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it. It ends up below 100.

[David Sims]

I guess the re. Re releases put it above 100, but back then getting, you know, inflation.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, no. It did well. But it's one of those things where you read the press at the time, people are like, I know I'm going to sound crazy, but the new Disney movie is good. And it just kind of hung in there for months and then like, primed.

[Richard Lawson]

A pump for Beauty and the Beast to be a.

[Griffin Newman]

Then explosion. Then the next four are all, like, mega hits. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Number seven is Steel Magnolias, another big hit of the fall. Number nine is the sort of satirical comedy blaze.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure.

[David Sims]

The Ron Shelton movie with Paul Newman. Newman as Earl Long.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. See, I've been interested in. I've been meaning to watch that in my interest of, like, old cad Paul Newman. Like, salty.

[David Sims]

I would like to fill in some Newman gaps. That's certainly one of them. Not like a hugely remembered movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm sorry, I know this is moving back a film, but I'm doing the math in my head. Is there a Patreon series that is like Steel Magnolias, Fried Green Tomatoes, Divine Secrets of the Yaya Sisterhood. Oh, like Southern ensemble.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah. I think there. I think there's something there.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. For sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

You'd have to watch probably pretty bad movies. Not the ones you named, necessarily.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. We curate.

[David Sims]

Number nine is the. I Would say fairly forgotten Sidney Lumet movie. Family business with Connery, Hoffman, and Broderick.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Now, yes. If I were casting a movie in which I had to cast three generations of men in the same family.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Grandfather, father, son.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I think the first three names that would come to me who just fit really well together are Sean Connery, Dustin Hoffman, and Matthew Broderick. Three people who. Absolutely.

[Richard Lawson]

It's almost as good as that movie where Glenn Close plays Mila Kunis's mom, which, you know, totally syncs up.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely. Yeah. No, there's. The poster for that movie in my memory is sort of like one's at.

[David Sims]

A desk sitting, and the other two are over the shoulder.

[Griffin Newman]

It's kind of a great things come and bears. What is set up?

[Richard Lawson]

Is it like a crime thing?

[Griffin Newman]

It's. They're. They're like a media family. Is that right?

[Richard Lawson]

Is.

[Griffin Newman]

Do they work in the news?

[David Sims]

I don't know. Because the tagline is there's nothing like a good robbery to bring a family together. So let's find out what this movie is.

[Griffin Newman]

I just feel like that's a movie where the poster just sets up up, hey, one of these guys fathered one of these other guys fathered the other guy. And America's just like, absolutely not. We are not buying that.

[Richard Lawson]

That is.

[Griffin Newman]

We refuse.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It's like, Sean Connory is a gangster and his son. Veto. Dustin Hoffman.

[Griffin Newman]

Uhhuh.

[David Sims]

Because Sean Connory has a Sicilian wife. Wife. Sean Connory is Scottish in the movie. This you.

[Richard Lawson]

I can tell.

[Griffin Newman]

This is my Italian son.

[David Sims]

The screenplay.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, like going to rob a bank.

[David Sims]

Like, here's a sign.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, dad, grandfather, what are we doing here?

[David Sims]

And Veto again. Dustin Hoffman plays Veto, has a son, Matthew Broderick, who he's trying to keep away from the business, but. So Brick doesn't know even that his dad is grandpa's.

[Griffin Newman]

His name is Miguel Sanchez. Max. Brad.

[David Sims]

His name is Adam. Okay. And I guess they all get involved into some, like, heist that they do.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

This movie sounds insane. Other people did not like the movie. It got bad reviews. Number 10 at the box office. A film we'll never discuss. Look who's talking. That's me looking at who's talking.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And none of us were talking at that moment.

[Richard Lawson]

That was me doing my Holly Hunter in the piano impression.

[Griffin Newman]

Really good.

[David Sims]

You know, Always.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. I have to say, I have very fond memories of loving it as a child that were a bit tarnished, but I still hold that. Those first 30 minutes are great.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I'm with you and I kind of like. I. I think Hunter pushes it over the edge to being a gentleman. Six for me.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

I think that's totally fair.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

I would give it three stars on letterboxd.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, that's. That's where I put. I'll say this, like, halfway through the movie, I, like, logged it on letterboxd and gave it a heart.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then, like, 15 minutes later, I was like, I'm gonna take the heart back.

[Richard Lawson]

Okay, fair enough. Yeah, that's.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I truly was just like, you know what? I'm enjoying this so much. That heart is going to last an hour from now. And then I was just. Yoink.

[Richard Lawson]

Is anyone else craving the smooth taste of a Marlboro cigarette right now so badly?

[Griffin Newman]

You know what I would love to do? I'd love to just. Especially in this brutal winter, I'd like to get snug inside of a Marlboro sleeping bag.

[David Sims]

Oh, God.

[Griffin Newman]

With a long.

[Richard Lawson]

The lining is just crushed cigarettes. That's so crazy.

[Griffin Newman]

What were the other. Do you remember other items you got?

[David Sims]

No, the sleeping bag is the thing. My guess is that most of the items were useless. Like.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, to a family.

[Ben Hosley]

Exciting news. There's some available on ebay, ranging. Yeah. Ranging from 80 to even down to $20.

[Griffin Newman]

What about, like, the motorcycles? Can you find motorcycles?

[David Sims]

Oh, God. Then that is it. That's it, right?

[Griffin Newman]

That's the one.

[Richard Lawson]

The next. The next blank check live is just going to be. Everyone files into town hall, and David is just asleep on stage in a Marboro sleeping bag. And that's the whole show.

[David Sims]

What I want, you know, in my life is a used sleeping bag. I mean, that's what I'm really trolling.

[Richard Lawson]

Ebay for, a used cigarette sleeping bag.

[David Sims]

How many people have slept in this? What could go wrong?

[Richard Lawson]

How many people have smoked?

[David Sims]

Got a cigarette logo on it.

[Richard Lawson]

Good.

[Griffin Newman]

I want. I just really.

[David Sims]

You want to associate cigarettes with sleeping? Two things you should have together.

[Griffin Newman]

In my opinion, the cornerstone of a great sleeping bag is the mileage.

[Richard Lawson]

I have a Kool's tent if you want to go camping.

[David Sims]

So I have to pee. Griffin takes us out. I'll be back because I know how long you take.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I was. I was going to ask Richard for his plugs, and it's going to seem really rude if you're pissing while he.

[Richard Lawson]

I don't really have any plugs, so.

[David Sims]

Pissing all over his plugs.

[Griffin Newman]

Can piss on rookie's plugs.

[Richard Lawson]

Don't piss on my plugs and tell me it's Marboro. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

Little Gold man.

[Richard Lawson]

Little Gold man. Still going strongish.

[Ben Hosley]

Wait, I have a joke to finish. Marboro Golds, cuz. Piss Gold.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, that's.

[Richard Lawson]

There you go. I used to smoke this.

[Griffin Newman]

This will. This will come out after the Oscars have happened. Do you want to put any bold predictions?

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, I think to me, Moore is going to win. I think based on the SAG nominations, I'm. I'm swinging back to Timmy winning over Adrian. There's something in the water there. Yeah. And. And also bangled getting the DGA nomination.

[David Sims]

I just think the reaction to Timmy's performance was, like, universal. Like, I didn't know he had it in him. And I really think that's what kind of gets you an Oscar.

[Griffin Newman]

Can I say it on Mike now? And I might be proven very wrong, but I just want to say it because I feel like it's a position no one's taking. I still think Ralph Fiennes is going to win.

[David Sims]

This has been your take.

[Griffin Newman]

This has been my contention.

[David Sims]

Conclave is lacking in buzz currently.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, what he needs to do in order to win is start a new wave of excitement in the time between this episode recording and the ceremony in two months. But I sort of think it's going to happen.

[Richard Lawson]

That would be fun. And he. I was at the NBR's, the National Board of Review dinner, and I was at their table. I didn't get to talk to Rafe much. I mostly talked to Edward Berger, but on stage, they had. They won an ensemble award. And Rafe spoke for a bit and he was quoting D.H. lawrence. He quoted T.S. eliot. And I was like, oh, wait a second. I want more of these speeches. Like, he is, like, very nice on.

[Griffin Newman]

Stage and him showing up with a New Year's Eve.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Thing. I was like, oh, he's kind of maybe.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I think Chalamet. If Chalamet doesn't win, I would not be surprised if he wins. If he doesn't win, I almost think it's a, like, do we want to drive as him Thing.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, that is the thing. This much, this early, when we know he's on a track to continue doing.

[David Sims]

Good work for decades with Brody, it's like, do we give him the second Oscar for the second good lead performance he's given?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think Brody wins. I think it's probably.

[Richard Lawson]

They did it with Hillary Swing.

[Griffin Newman]

All right.

[David Sims]

That's what I'm saying. And they, I think, regretted.

[Griffin Newman]

And the Zweger thing as well. I feel like they feel Embarrassed when they do that.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

After a couple.

[David Sims]

And, like, he won the globe. But then I reminded myself, like, right, he didn't win the globe for the penis. Not that the new globes really care about who won old globes, I guess. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

And then Saldana and I, I, I.

[Richard Lawson]

I doubted Saldanya for a while because I wasn't sure what people. How the industry actually thought about Emilia Perez, but ODR getting the DGA nom and stuff. Yeah. I think Selena's road has ended, though.

[Griffin Newman]

I would agree with that.

[David Sims]

Don't let the stands hear you say.

[Richard Lawson]

I mean, we'll never see. Yeah, exactly. So that. Those are my. Oh, by the time this is up, I will. It'll be months old, I think. I do have a full ranking of Steven Spielberg movies. Like a paragraph for each thing explaining my reasoning. I'm excited to dive into the writing.

[Griffin Newman]

Can you spoil. Do you know right now what your dead top and dead bottom are?

[Richard Lawson]

Dead top is AI, I think. I'm almost positive.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that's my dead top.

[Richard Lawson]

I watched it again for probably the fifth time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Like last week. And I cried for the last 30 minutes in a way that was, like, genuinely cathartic and meant something. It wasn't just me responding to stimuli.

[David Sims]

Where did Jigolo Joe go? Where is it?

[Richard Lawson]

It's an incredible movie. And then number one or the last place with an absolute bullet is 1941, which is a complete catastrophe of a movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. For some scheduling reasons, we have not gotten to that episode yet. We've recorded almost all of them. It's been the thing at the end of the road.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. It's. It's. It is really his only fully irredeemable movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I have never been able to make it past maybe the 15 minute mark.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, because a strenuous slapstick farce that is not for one second funny is incredibly painful.

[David Sims]

It is the worst kind of like, peanut butter and olives, like, where you're just like, yeah, all right.

[Richard Lawson]

Anyway, that's that. Thanks for having me.

[Griffin Newman]

You're the best, Richard.

[Richard Lawson]

I'll see you for 15, whatever that might be.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Are you gonna text us, like, in an hour saying the episode was bad?

[Richard Lawson]

No, I was thinking about. I'm not going to do it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Great app.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's just say that decade of dreams that you text us the evening of or the next morning after almost every episode and go, guys, I feel like I let you down. I'm so sorry.

[Richard Lawson]

And then I wait for months for.

[David Sims]

This to come out and you did. And you should.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And the only reason I'm I'm bringing this up on Michael, though, David was the one who opened the box. Is that you. You are one of the most important people in the history of the show and you're always great and I always am so excited when you're coming on.

[Richard Lawson]

Me too. And I really appreciate that. You guys often do, like, get an annoying text message from me and actually are like, okay, you can do that, you know? Cause I know it's your show, not mine, so.

[Griffin Newman]

But it always, every time, every episode you've ended up on feels like, oh, that makes sense. And sometimes there's another plan that shifts. Sometimes it was always from the get go. You were supposed to go there.

[Richard Lawson]

You think K19 and you think me.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, it's the thing I always look forward to. Love the episodes.

[Richard Lawson]

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Congrats. 10 years. I just have one last thing to say. Please Hap.

[Griffin Newman]

Hap. Thank you for listening. Tune in next week for for hook an episode. I predict our listeners will be really, really no complaints. Normal about no one's going to get angry at me. And as always, well, wait, over on the Patreon, over in the Patreon, because.

[Ben Hosley]

When this episode comes out, it will be the last day of our March Madness voting.

[Griffin Newman]

That's wild to think about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

So hopefully listeners have been following along with that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, the you'll have had a high value month of all the extra March Madness content over on on Patreon as.

[Ben Hosley]

Well as, you know, voting for our main feed.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

And we are in the midst of our Star Trek Picard series on Patreon.

[Griffin Newman]

So that will be fun. Check that out.

[Ben Hosley]

All right, now wrap us up.

[Griffin Newman]

And as always, please, please do not murder me for what I say on the hook episode.

[Ben Hosley]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas and our Associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithee. Research by JJ Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the great American novel with additional music by Alex Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on Social blankcheckpod Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.