Blood Simple with Ray Tintori & Jordan Fish

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David: "Blood Simple with Ray Tintori & Jordan Fish"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Blank Check with Griffin & David
• Host/Authors: Griffin Newman and David Sims
• Episode: Blood Simple with Ray Tintori & Jordan Fish
• Release Date: July 13, 2025
• Produced by: Ben Hosley

---

Introduction

In the July 13, 2025 episode of Blank Check with Griffin & David, hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims delve into the Coen Brothers' debut film, Blood Simple. Joining them are longtime friends and filmmakers Ray Tantori and Jordan Fish, who provide additional insights into the film's production, performances, and enduring legacy.

Background on Blood Simple

Blood Simple marks the Coen Brothers’ first foray into the neo-noir genre, establishing their signature blend of dark humor, intricate plotting, and unforgettable characters. The film, set in Texas, revolves around a love triangle that spirals into murder and betrayal.

Notable Quote:

• David Sims [00:53]: "I think he's quiet in this."

Casting and Performances

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the casting of John Getz as Marty and Dan Hedaya as Emmett Walsh. The hosts praise Hedaya's nuanced portrayal of the conflicted sheriff, highlighting his ability to infuse the character with both menace and vulnerability.

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Fish [03:22]: "He almost sounds like that voice actor who's in the Disney Robin Hood at times."
• David Sims [05:35]: "His performance is so singular and it sounds like in a lot of ways it kind of happened by accident."

The conversation also touches on the Best Lead Actor win at the Independent Spirit Awards, where Hedaya was recognized for his role despite being a supporting character.

Notable Quote:

• David Sims [07:05]: "It was the first indie spirits ever."

Production and Filmmaking Process

The episode provides an in-depth look at the Coen Brothers' meticulous approach to filmmaking. Hosts discuss the challenges they faced during the production of Blood Simple, including budget constraints and the innovative methods they employed to bring their vision to life.

Notable Quotes:

• David Sims [62:16]: "They decided to make a trailer as if they had made the finished film, because no one wants to read scripts."
• David Sims [73:14]: "They were like, any sort of emotional nuance in that film is what the actors brought to it."

Ray Tantori shares anecdotes about the storyboard process, emphasizing the Coens' reliance on visual storytelling and improvisation.

Notable Quote:

• Ray Tantori [47:05]: "When they hit a wall, they don't ram into the wall. They're just kind of like, okay, if it's not coming to us, then we have to come back until it makes sense."

Reception and Legacy

Blood Simple premiered at major film festivals, receiving a mix of critical acclaim and initial skepticism. Over time, it has been recognized as a landmark film that showcased the Coen Brothers' potential, setting the stage for their illustrious careers.

Notable Quotes:

• Griffin Newman [31:50]: "This film is coming out during a Neo noir boom. I don't know if you guys would agree with that."
• David Sims [136:05]: "It's something that drives me physically viscerally uncomfortable that I made this commitment to myself from that movie of just like, I am never letting something film until it's ready ever again."

The hosts compare Blood Simple to later Coen films like Fargo and No Country for Old Men, illustrating the evolution of their storytelling and thematic depth.

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Fish [39:06]: "It's a film designed knowing that audiences watch these types of movies that way."
• Ray Tantori [138:02]: "This could be a good series for you, by the way."

Key Themes and Artistic Choices

The conversation delves into the thematic elements of Blood Simple, such as deceit, mistrust, and the unintended consequences of one's actions. The Coens' choice to minimize dialogue in favor of visual storytelling is highlighted as a deliberate technique to heighten tension and immerse the audience in the characters' psychological turmoil.

Notable Quotes:

• David Sims [137:08]: "It's not a whodunit. So what happened?"
• Griffin Newman [141:26]: "And Emmett Walsh cracking up as he's dying. Like, it's just a great character detail."

The episode also examines the use of cinematography and sound, praising the collaboration with Barry Sonnenfeld and Carter Burwell, which contributed to the film's haunting atmosphere.

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Fish [143:34]: "There are so many pickup shots in this movie down to, like, that little drip of water. That's the very last shot of the movie."

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with reflections on the enduring impact of Blood Simple and the Coen Brothers' innovative filmmaking style. Ray Tantori and Jordan Fish express their admiration for the film's complexity and the Coens' ability to create compelling narratives that leave a lasting impression.

Notable Quotes:

• Griffin Newman [155:23]: "Blood simple. I'm gonna read from the dossier."
• Jordan Fish [161:57]: "Yeah, they're the best directors. I feel like every one of their movies is interesting to talk about, to watch, to think about, and to watch endlessly."

Hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims invite listeners to continue exploring the Coen Brothers' filmography in upcoming episodes, promising deeper dives into their subsequent works and collaborative dynamics.

Wrap-Up

Blood Simple serves as a perfect entry point into the Coen Brothers' oeuvre, showcasing their early mastery of narrative complexity and character development. This episode of Blank Check with Griffin & David not only celebrates the film's achievements but also sets the tone for an engaging exploration of the auteurs' artistic journey.

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps:

• David Sims [00:53]: "I think he's quiet in this."
• Jordan Fish [03:22]: "He almost sounds like that voice actor who's in the Disney Robin Hood at times."
• David Sims [05:35]: "His performance is so singular and it sounds like in a lot of ways it kind of happened by accident."
• David Sims [07:05]: "It was the first indie spirits ever."
• David Sims [62:16]: "They decided to make a trailer as if they had made the finished film, because no one wants to read scripts."
• Ray Tantori [47:05]: "When they hit a wall, they don't ram into the wall. They're just kind of like, okay, if it's not coming to us, then we have to come back until it makes sense."
• David Sims [73:14]: "They were like, any sort of emotional nuance in that film is what the actors brought to it."
• Griffin Newman [31:50]: "This film is coming out during a Neo noir boom. I don't know if you guys would agree with that."
• David Sims [136:05]: "It's something that drives me physically viscerally uncomfortable that I made this commitment to myself from that movie of just like, I am never letting something film until it's ready ever again."
• Jordan Fish [39:06]: "It's a film designed knowing that audiences watch these types of movies that way."
• Ray Tantori [138:02]: "This could be a good series for you, by the way."
• David Sims [137:08]: "It's not a whodunit. So what happened?"
• Griffin Newman [141:26]: "And Emmett Walsh cracking up as he's dying. Like, it's just a great character detail."
• Jordan Fish [143:34]: "There are so many pickup shots in this movie down to, like, that little drip of water. That's the very last shot of the movie."
• Griffin Newman [155:23]: "Blood simple. I'm gonna read from the dossier."
• Jordan Fish [161:57]: "Yeah, they're the best directors. I feel like every one of their movies is interesting to talk about, to watch, to think about, and to watch endlessly."

---

Note: Advertisements and non-content segments between timestamps [40:10]-[43:19] and [157:05]-[166:06] were excluded from this summary as per instructions.

Transcript

[Griffin Newman]

Blank check with Griffin and David.

[David Sims]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect. All you need to know is that the name of the shadow is Blackjack. World is full of complainers. And the fact is, nothing comes with a guarantee. I don't care if you're the Pope of Rome, President of the United States, or man of the Year, something can go all wrong. Go on ahead, you know, complain. Tell your problems to your neighbor, ask for help. Watch them fly. Now, in Russia, they got it mapped out so that everyone pulls for everyone else. That's the theory anyway. But what I know about is podcasting, and down here you're on your own. It's a very hard voice to do.

[Griffin Newman]

Mm, Walsh. Yes. He was just a little quiet, I feel.

[David Sims]

Mm.

[Griffin Newman]

Walsh is loud.

[David Sims]

I think he's quiet in this.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, maybe I'm thinking of the ending, obviously. Yeah. Where he is loud. So maybe he is quiet. Yeah, he's louder than. I saw him on the West End stage once.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Jordan Fish]

In his.

[Griffin Newman]

In his later is sort of in a semi dotage.

[David Sims]

Huh.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, mma, Walsh was always a middle aged, slash older guy in movies. Right?

[David Sims]

Correct.

[Griffin Newman]

Classic.

[David Sims]

Like, was never young.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But then. Then he was like an old guy.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like for like a while.

[David Sims]

He lived a very long time.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, Exactly.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he was in a West End production, Buried Child, the Sam Shepard play, I think one of my favorite plays of all time.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Which has like an old guy who basically just sits in a chair the whole play going. Right. And he was that great.

[David Sims]

I was watching some of the stuff on the very good Criterion disc.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yes.

[David Sims]

And they talk about that. They cast him. He's from Vermont.

[Griffin Newman]

Is he really?

[David Sims]

I believe he said, let's find out. Or. No, Virginia. Virginia.

[Griffin Newman]

Totally different place.

[David Sims]

I know. Hold on.

[Griffin Newman]

No, you're wrong. He's from Vermont.

[David Sims]

I had it right the first time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, you did.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

He was raised in rural Swanton, Vermont, which is in the top of Vermont.

[David Sims]

He played a lot of southern guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Northwest Vermont. Yes, he did.

[David Sims]

And this is like.

[Griffin Newman]

You think of him as like a Southern. Right. Sheriff.

[David Sims]

This is what he was saying was just like. That's not my way of speaking. It's not how I was trained to speak. I've like grew up around this very clipped, precise speech. And he was like. And I worked really hard to come up with a taxis accent for the character. And like, people really bought me as it. And then I watched the different interview on the disc with the Coen brothers, and it was with David Eggers. And he was asking them about how they worked with actors, and they were like, we had never met this guy before until he showed up on set. It was the first time we were ever, like, meeting an actor who we had seen before. Like everyone else in this movie, we kind of were, like, meeting through auditions. Right. And so we were so intimidated. And he comes and he's like, guys, I'm excited to show you this. Here's my accent. And he does it for them. And they're like, we cannot understand a word he is saying. And we don't know how to talk to him. We are too intimidated to give him any note.

[Griffin Newman]

I would be too intimidated to give that guy a note.

[David Sims]

But his voice is so fascinating, I could not approximate it. But it's like this very drawly whisper.

[Jordan Fish]

The musicality of it.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Jordan Fish]

He almost sounds like that voice actor who's in the Disney Robin Hood at times. Who plays, like, the sheriff's underling.

[David Sims]

Yes, yes. Who I, in a previous episode, misidentifies Slim Pickens. But it's not. It is.

[Griffin Newman]

Let me find out for you. I'm guessing it is. Who plays who.

[David Sims]

Sorry. He plays the, like, sheriff.

[Griffin Newman]

Nottingham's like the side guy.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Jordan Fish]

Kind of a wheezy, soft, musical voice.

[Ray Tantori]

That guy was in movies too. That. That.

[David Sims]

Butram.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, Pat Butram played the Sheriff of Nottingham.

[Jordan Fish]

Did you guys see Straight Time his performance in Straight Time? Because I feel like that was their thing. Like they cast him off of that. And in that one, it's amazing because he's. He's this scary character who really messes up Dustin Hoffman's life. But he's so soft and he's. He's sweet and I don't even know if he really is out of line. His. He's just doing his job and he's wearing leisure wear with, like, big lapels.

[Ray Tantori]

He's like, instrumentalizing his ability to be like a soft, kind of like, unassuming, sort of like, orderly person. And then, like, all of a sudden, he, like, snaps into, like, give me your arm. Let me see if you got any track marks. You know, like.

[David Sims]

So they were both saying that was the performance that led to him them writing the letter and trying to get him cast in this movie. Right. And it was just very fascinating watching the Rashomon of the two interviews and how he self mythologizes and how they talked about working with him. And it does feel like there was some, like, if not active tension, a sort of, like, failure to communicate between the two parties, even though Obviously worked out great in the final product. And he was like, my dad was a cop and I got this role in straight time and I felt like a lot of people would have villainized this character. And I wanted to play him empathetically. Like, he's really trying to help this guy. He was like, I want to not make this character antagonistic at all. And he felt good about what he was doing. And then you watch the final cut and he's like, half of this movie I come off like a scary asshole. And then the Cohen's are like, hey, you know what? We like how in that movie you keep switching between the two things. And he was basically like, that was a failure of me executing what I tried to do. That half the scenes felt like they got away from me or something. It's just very interesting to hear. This performance is so singular and it sounds like in a lot of ways it kind of happened by accident.

[Griffin Newman]

Is this. I think this is indisputably true, but I'll just say it Anyway. The. The MM at Walsh Performance, it's like a man who gave 100 performances, right? Paris, Texas, you're saying that's the. The Harry Dean Stanton performance in a great tapestry of work.

[David Sims]

He was basically saying that like he carved out his career where for like 20 years there were 10 guys where if you wanted three scenes and someone could lock horns with the movie star and they wouldn't try to upstage them, but they challenge them and get better work out of them. He was like, it was me, Charlie Durning, Harry Stanton. Like, he listed the guys. Right? And I feel like Paris, Texas is that same thing where you're sort of like, wow, I didn't think you could build an emotional story around this guy as a leading man. And Blood simple is obviously more of an ensemble piece. He won best actor at the Independent Spirit Awards. Even though I would argue he is supporting in this.

[Griffin Newman]

It's inarguable that he's supporting in this. That's kind of crazy.

[David Sims]

He won best lead beating Griffin Dun for After Hours. We talk about right before.

[Griffin Newman]

That's back when the indie spirits, you know, truly were indie spirited. Yes, but yes, the.

[David Sims]

It was the first. It was the first indie spirits ever. And Scorsese and the Cohen tie for director.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure, why Not After Hours 1 best feature.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I do not see Griffin Dun nominated.

[David Sims]

That's even more insane.

[Griffin Newman]

So who the nominees are? Ruben Blades. Blades. Blades. I always say blades. Yeah, there's no accent in it.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

And also means he has the coolest name in the history of actors. You guys like Ruben Blades?

[David Sims]

You like Ruben Blades?

[Ray Tantori]

I hate finding out that it's actually just pronounced blade and not.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know if it's pronounced bloody. I have no idea how to pronounce his name. And I'm so sorry. For a film called Crossover Dreams that I have not really heard of. Tom Bauer for a film called Wild Rose. And Treat Williams in Smooth Talk. He is so good. Have you seen Smooth Talk? God, he's amazing in that movie. That would be a worthy winner.

[David Sims]

I'm just confounded by them not nominating Griffin Dunn. How does that happen?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know. They had like four nominees and they don't even. Here's the thing. They don't even have featured actor or whatever. It's just male leads. Female lead.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

So maybe it's just kind of like we'll just nominate the performances we like. Because Street Williams is also kind of supporting.

[David Sims]

Because I feel like a supporting actress wins. This is a great actress that year.

[Griffin Newman]

You want me to bring it back?

[David Sims]

Doesn't. So someone wins for Trip to Bountiful. But it's not Geraldine Page.

[Griffin Newman]

A movie, of course, that I once described on this podcast as being like, I've never seen it. Geraldine Page one. She did for the Trip to Bountiful. The other nominees were Laura Dern for Smooth Talk, Rosanna Aret for After Hours. This state of American independent film was really just like. We loved After Hours and. But simple.

[David Sims]

We love After Hours in every category. But best lead actor, one of the most lead performance driven movies. The whole movie. Is that also. He's a Griff.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And Lori Singer for the Alan Rudolph film Trouble in Mind, which I've ever seen.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

With Keith Carrion, Chris Christopherson. But obviously it's a great movie. I have. Mm.

[David Sims]

You've never seen it, but it's obviously a great movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It must be. I have M. Walsh say that five times. Fast nominated for supporting actor, though.

[David Sims]

I think this is just the. His like, most iconic role. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Blade Runner. Trying to think of, like, competition.

[David Sims]

But this is the thing you could throw at a bunch of movies where you're like, mm, Walsh crushes in three scenes.

[Griffin Newman]

Crushes a scene. Yeah. The jerk.

[David Sims]

But this is the movie where his character is, like, larger. So that's why I think this is larger than life.

[Jordan Fish]

I mean, the complexity of the character. It's the first fully inscrutable, very layered, very contrasting, very powerful, magnetic. Cohen's character.

[David Sims]

I think that is very well said. And I think hearing Them talk about how much they couldn't agree on the character by mistake. It kind of helps them identify something that they will try to intentionally, by design, build into the characters and the performances from here on out. Because everyone else in this movie is a lot more straightforward because not a bad way. Right. But you watch it, and you're just sort of like. You can't imagine the Cohens placing a character as uncomplicated as, like, not John Dahl.

[Jordan Fish]

John Getz.

[David Sims]

John Getz. Thank you.

[Griffin Newman]

Although John Dahl would have been good, too.

[David Sims]

Yes. But you know what I'm saying? Like, the Jon Getz character feels so streamlined in a way they would never kind of let happen again.

[Jordan Fish]

Well, Billy Bout Thornton in Man who Wasn't There is a little bit of a play on the same thing. Like this guy, this very masculine cipher stuck in a noir story, but it's almost like they go so inside his brain.

[Griffin Newman]

Man who Wasn't There. You almost want more characters to say to him, like, hey, hey, like, anyone awake in there? Like, he's so flat.

[Ray Tantori]

Well, it's also the joke.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, Right.

[David Sims]

That's the thing exactly. Is, like, this guy looking more intense than anyone's ever looked, going on these long internal monologues while, like, cutting a child's hair versus, like, yeah, Getz is kind of doing something a lot simpler in an effective way. I mean, the other I just watching this, I was like, the two movies in their career this feels most twinned with are weirdly no country and Burn After Reading. It's like those two movies are the splits of the two things they're doing in this Burn After Eating.

[Griffin Newman]

You mean because of the sort of cuckoldry and assassinations that it's another movie.

[David Sims]

Based on a thing they love. But I think these are the two clearest examples. A bunch of overconfident idiots having no idea that they don't know what's going on. Right. That everyone thinks they got control of the situation. Like, what's fascinating about this movie is that, like, it avoids all the conversations that could clarify things and stop all the terrible things from happening.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

And I saw someone point out, I think Fart Far.

[Griffin Newman]

Fargo has that, too.

[David Sims]

It has that, too. Fargo. It has that, too.

[Ray Tantori]

It's not as much like unintentional crisscross double cross.

[Griffin Newman]

Not as much. But there are a couple conversations in Fargo that would have helped things out.

[David Sims]

Sure. But this, yes, yes. This has the thing where you're just like, there are a series of misunderstandings based around everyone thinking that they can hold the upper hand. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And the fact that Emma Walsh never interacts with Getz or McDormand directly is the most interesting thing.

[Jordan Fish]

Yeah. She kills him at the end. The final joke of the movie is she kills him and says, I'm not afraid of you, Marty. He's the only one who gets it. The entire movie has been this Rube Goldberg mousetrap to get to that point. And he's the only character who sees it.

[Ray Tantori]

They see his hat in his Volkswagen Beetle for one frame in the first scene of the movie. That's the only time that they have any type of an eye line match. The only time that they ever see him throughout the whole film. And I think that's something that they're the Cohen are interested in, because also, in no country like you, Timily Jones, like, never meets Brolin, and he never meets Sugar either.

[David Sims]

And the second Brolin meets Sugar, the movie just jumps ahead and it's like, conflict over, you know. This is a blank check, David.

[Griffin Newman]

There we go.

[David Sims]

It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their career, such as being nominated for the first ever Independent Spirit Awards and winning best directors, given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes they bounce, baby. This is the beginning of a very long but very exciting miniseries as chosen by you, the listener, in our March Madness competition. We're talking about the Coen brothers. The series is called Pod country for old casts.

[Griffin Newman]

I believe so.

[David Sims]

I believe so.

[Griffin Newman]

I was hoping you remembered.

[David Sims]

I think I remembered correctly. This is our first episode in the series. We've recorded.

[Griffin Newman]

We've recorded one before.

[David Sims]

Yes. And today we're talking about their debut film, Blood Simple. Joining us on the show, returning for the first time together, but dear friends of the show, Family, I would say. I'd say family.

[Griffin Newman]

Very much part of the blank check family.

[David Sims]

When I threw out having them on for this episode, David's response was, they're family.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, because.

[David Sims]

Should we do guest list?

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly. We often do the first episode with no guest, and then you were like, bye, but Ray and Jordan. And I was like, yeah, they. They don't count as guests in the same way. They're family. And when you're here, you're family.

[David Sims]

We like to think of this podcast as the Olive Garden.

[Griffin Newman]

That's. It is Olive Garden, right?

[Ray Tantori]

You guys do have never ending breadsticks.

[David Sims]

We do. Which most of our guests don't call out, considering how much we're spending that Wood Rock.

[Griffin Newman]

If that was true, like that's the. It's in our writer is like by the way, unlimited breadsticks have to be wherever we are.

[David Sims]

They have to follow us. When I say never ending, I mean never ending. It doesn't end once I leave your restaurant.

[Ray Tantori]

No, they just keep rolling out. You're like a conveyor.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ray Tantori]

You actually have to eat them or it's a problem.

[Griffin Newman]

Do any other chain like fast casual chains. It's not fast. Whatever you would call Olive Garden. Maybe it is fast. I don't know. Have like a tagline is ubiquitous as when you hear your family.

[David Sims]

No, I don't think like those guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Really did nail it with I'm loving it now that doesn't count. Like what's the Applebee's?

[David Sims]

Have it your way. Eating good in the neighborhood.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, he knows it.

[David Sims]

I know all of them keep asking me. We got the meat.

[Ray Tantori]

I want my baby back ribs.

[David Sims]

It's pretty good.

[Griffin Newman]

Chili's. What is currently it is. Savor the moment.

[David Sims]

Well, that's sucks.

[Griffin Newman]

I agree. This is what I'm saying. This is. This can be hard to get.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Outbacks is like it's always good in the Outback. And I'm like, guys, try again. Come on.

[David Sims]

Isn't there something. Outback Steakhouse. What was the theme? The song? The jingle used to have a different line at the end of it. Outback Steakhouse.

[Ray Tantori]

Well, there was the. Who was that band of Montreal.

[Jordan Fish]

The guy from. Of Montreal recorded a jingle for Outback Steakhouse. But then when people were like, why did you do this? This seems very commercial. He was like, I have no memory of. Of agreeing to or recording.

[Ray Tantori]

And the lyrics was. It was a re. It was a like redo of the lyrics of let's pretend we don't exist. And it's like, let's go out back tonight. You know, the world will still be here tomorrow.

[David Sims]

That's good.

[Griffin Newman]

That's good. I like that.

[David Sims]

Let me say outright that our guests are Ray Tantori and Jordan Fish.

[Griffin Newman]

Welcome fellas.

[David Sims]

Excellent filmmakers, dear friends, family, but also co host of the to the White Sea podcast. A years long project you guys have been doing. Perhaps coming back soon.

[Jordan Fish]

Yeah, Coming back this week.

[David Sims]

Hey.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh like yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

By the time you hear this, it.

[Griffin Newman]

Records that we release. There you go. We said it.

[David Sims]

Now to the White Sea is like the. The great unmade Cohen's.

[Griffin Newman]

We will talk about it, I'm sure later in this miniseries. It is probably there. I mean when I'm a teenage boy and just think of that. What a fun kid that was.

[David Sims]

We all like to think about it.

[Griffin Newman]

Reading my Empire magazines, I was right on. Like, to the White Sea. That's the great unproduced Cohen's movie we're all waiting for.

[David Sims]

To the White Sea and, like, Ain't a Cool Being. Like, this might be the greatest screenplay I've ever read. Whoa. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Brad Pitt walking to the White Sea.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Possibly gets very close to happening, falls apart. And then that basically directly leads into what is seen as like the Cohen's weirdest woolly fallow period before. They have the pretty country Country.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, Right.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah. They dust off intolerable cruelty, which is a script that they had written basically.

[David Sims]

Just to be like, we got to make something right. Like, I guess we'll direct this thing. That had been a for hire job.

[Ray Tantori]

And then they did Lady Killers.

[David Sims]

Right. They do these two studio comedies back to back that I, in my memory, were kind of received by people as like, are the Coen brothers just trying to cash in now?

[Jordan Fish]

It seemed like it was over forever.

[David Sims]

It really felt like it was over forever in a way where. When no country played at Cannes.

[Griffin Newman]

No country for All Men.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know.

[David Sims]

And people were like, you're never going to believe this. It's good. There was this sense of almost astonishment of like, I guess we wrote those guys off too quickly.

[Griffin Newman]

We'll get to that.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But yes, there was a little bit of like the. The fear of had they finally lost the shine in the new country is. Was it can. Yes. Can't remember if it was.

[David Sims]

Can or not. But you guys have done this project that started when the Coen brothers sort of soft split and have been doing their solo projects of being able to, like, timestamp it and be like, here is the, at this point, complete filmography of the Cohen. Who knows if it ever resumes as a team through the prism of this unmade movie. And going through the script and doing a sort of radio play version of the script, in which, of course, you had me play the Brad Pitt role.

[Ray Tantori]

Had to.

[Jordan Fish]

Obviously a beautiful, nuanced performance.

[David Sims]

Thank you.

[Ray Tantori]

He really does do a wonderful job.

[David Sims]

But then also using that to sort of like thematically go through the Cohen's and talk about different recurring themes. The big point here is that you guys have been so deep in the trenches, doing so much research, going through fucking personal archives and microfiche and reading and watching everything that we said. What a great opportunity to have them on for the first Cohen's episode. Coast off of all the work They've already done for the last couple of years and create a really good reason to fire jj.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's fire his ass.

[David Sims]

Let's fire JJ Harder than we've ever fired JJ before.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, all I want to say is that when I.

[David Sims]

You look at his dossier and you laugh.

[Griffin Newman]

When I go to a restaurant, I want legendary food and legendary service.

[David Sims]

Okay, you're asking me to guess you're doing the reverse.

[Griffin Newman]

I am.

[David Sims]

Legendary food, legendary service. The service is legendary.

[Griffin Newman]

Now, having been to this restaurant, which I enjoy.

[David Sims]

Huh.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember the service being particularly interesting. It was fine.

[Ray Tantori]

Medieval times would work.

[David Sims]

That would be sense.

[Griffin Newman]

In terms of legendary, it being incredible.

[Jordan Fish]

But it's not Michael Jordan steakhouse.

[Griffin Newman]

That would be great. But I have to imagine the service there's awful.

[David Sims]

I have to assume this is a sit down chain. Yeah. How. How wide is it? This isn't like one of the biggest changes. One of the biggest. It's one. It's a Ruby Tuesday.

[Griffin Newman]

Growing.

[David Sims]

Growing. Is it Ruby Tuesdays?

[Griffin Newman]

No, I don't think so.

[David Sims]

Well, you. You should know. You're the one quizzing me. It's growing.

[Griffin Newman]

What does Ruby Tuesday sell?

[David Sims]

Steak.

[Griffin Newman]

Cool.

[David Sims]

It's not Red Lobster.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm going to abandon this in a second. Ruby Tuesday slogan is fun between the buns. This one is not joking. That supposedly is their slogan.

[David Sims]

I feel like they're more steak than sandwich, though. It's not like Hillstone Group, is it?

[Griffin Newman]

No. I don't know.

[David Sims]

It's growing. It's on an up.

[Griffin Newman]

Weird that they were like, let's name our song after that. Like lovely, emotional song by the Rolling Stones. Like, who listens to Ruby Tuesday and is like, I'm hungry. You know, it's like, it's a good song, but it's this sort of like sweet, sad song.

[David Sims]

If I can circle back. The jingle I was trying to remember was let's do out Back tonight, it was the opposite. It's leading in. Okay. But legendary service, growing chain.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

On the.

[Griffin Newman]

I believe I read in an article by my colleague Yasmin Tayag, the great Yasmin, that it is the fastest growing sit down chain in America right now.

[David Sims]

But it's been around for a while. It's just having an upswing.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I'm gonna wrap this up.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Texas Roadhouse.

[David Sims]

Oh, was never gonna guess that.

[Jordan Fish]

So topical.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a real Texas roadhouse of a movie.

[Ray Tantori]

Could be the name of the movie.

[Jordan Fish]

Main set.

[Griffin Newman]

We are talking about Blood simple, the Cohen's first movie, directed, of course, by Joel Cohen and not Ethan Cohen. I'm gonna do that bit until. No lady.

[David Sims]

Lady Killers.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is set in Texas and is a rather stripped down neo noir. Did you detect, Griffin, that this film is a bit of a neo noir?

[David Sims]

You know what, David?

[Griffin Newman]

You know, there's noirs, but they're black and white, and Humphrey Bogart is there, but then there's the neo noirs.

[David Sims]

David, I know that you are the film critic by trade, and I'm not trying to one up you, but here's some observation I made while rewatching the. I'd almost call it a neon noir because of how much goddamn neon lighting there is in this picture.

[Ray Tantori]

It's a neon boot.

[David Sims]

It's a neon boot.

[Jordan Fish]

That's the name of the bar.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

Similar to tech noir, the film kind of announces itself with the bar.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

So here we are, the Coen brothers. Griffin, I'll start with you, but I'm gonna ask everyone. So, Ben, you might have to steal Jordan's mic. Ben's here, too. Of course. When did you first get on board with the brothers Cohen, Those Minnesota Jews?

[David Sims]

It's a good question. When I first got on board. I'm. Because. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, if you're a cine ass at the age that we are. Yeah. Teenage film fan in sort of mid to late 90s, the Cohen are dominant in terms of, like. That's a. That's a director you find quickly. I feel like.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

As you're growing up, I feel like.

[David Sims]

I was told from a very young age about their importance. Right. I'll. I'll build to a story briefly. Yep. It's a synagogue, please. But then, try to think. My parents tried to show me raising Arizona when I was fairly young, and I put my foot down and said, I don't get it. It's not funny. And then I feel like a couple years later, watched. It was like, I get it now.

[Griffin Newman]

Quite funny, actually.

[David Sims]

I was simply.

[Griffin Newman]

Pretty winning movie. Yes.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But I was maybe a little too young to watch it. I feel like. Oh, brother. Must have been the first one I actually saw in theaters.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's the same for me. I think it has to be. I definitely. The Big lebowski was rated 18 in Britain, I guess, because of, like, toe severance. I don't really know why else going on.

[Ray Tantori]

I mean, there's a lot of F.

[Griffin Newman]

Words in that movie. No, Britain. In Britain, you really only got an 18 for really extreme violence or any sexual violence.

[Ray Tantori]

If you say shag, then they.

[Griffin Newman]

They're like, oh, we're all hot and bothered. No, I mean, like, God bless the British rating system. Like, 18 really is supposed to signify, like, this is a really, really violent movie. Yeah, not so much like, oh, you might see a Willie.

[David Sims]

Can you say. Can you circle back and repeat? 18 because of toe severance.

[Griffin Newman]

It was rated, like, 18, I think, because of, like, the toe severance.

[David Sims]

Stiller and Tarantino working on a picture together. Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

Really good.

[Ray Tantori]

An Apple series, actually.

[David Sims]

Oh, okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Anyway, so, yeah, I think the first film I would have seen in theaters is oh, brother. Were out there. I would have been about 14, and I loved it. I. I'm just trying to remember if I would have seen any of the other ones before then. Maybe Raising Arizona. The first time I was aware of the Cohen is When Francis McDormand won the Oscar for Fargo.

[David Sims]

This I was going to say, probably same for me. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And my mom was like, oh, well, yeah, she was going to win. And I was like, oh, really? Like, you know, like, my mom was like, oh, yeah, she had to win. And I was like, why? And she was just like, I don't know, man. Look at the clip. Like, she's a pregnant cop. It's just crazy. I'd never seen anything like that.

[David Sims]

A really funny walk to the stage. Do you remember McDormand's walk for her first three Best Actress wins? But she's not doing the, like, oh, my God thing. She does this sort of like, it's almost. I'm going to watch Modern Sachet of playing being too cocky.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow. And Nicolas Cage is giving her the Oscar. So fun group.

[David Sims]

I think you're right that I, I.

[Griffin Newman]

And, but, like, so the clips from Fargo, and that's in the year that English Patient is dominating the Oscars.

[David Sims]

So that's the first year I watched the Oscars.

[Griffin Newman]

An English Patient seems like a movie that wins Oscars to me, where I'm like, yeah, it's set in the past and it's all orange and there's like, you know, war and important things happening. And then they're like, Fargo. And I'm like, what's that? My mom's like, oh, God. It's hard to describe. You know, this is so.

[David Sims]

And it looked so different even before her winning. The way they cut Billy Mr. Crystal into the Fargo clips in the opening montage. I think I had that same reaction of, what is this movie? Like, they were doing her puking on the side of the road.

[Griffin Newman]

It is a strut. God damn. She looks like she's about to, like, push Cage off the stage.

[David Sims]

It just felt like she looks like.

[Griffin Newman]

She'S entering the wrestling.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Doing like an elbow thing. Yeah.

[David Sims]

It burned into my memory.

[Griffin Newman]

She's so hot.

[David Sims]

But I also, I feel like, to your point, like, all in a standing o. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

All the big ones. Jim Carrey, Jeffrey Rush, Kevin Spacy.

[David Sims]

I'm at this party.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

That my parents have brought me to. And there was that same feeling of, like, this was undeniable. This is her night. She's getting it. This is an anointment thing. And to a certain degree, also like an anointment night for the Cohen. Right. And I think I'm absorbing this context around me. But also in the Billy Crystal montage, you're like, I get the bits for the other ones. English Patient looks really serious and Billy Crystal's coming in and doing something silly. Fargo was the only one where I was like, this almost has a crystal tone to begin with. They're already jokes in this movie, but it's also violent.

[Griffin Newman]

What did you do for Secrets and Lies?

[David Sims]

That's a really good question.

[Griffin Newman]

Now I gotta re watch those Oscars.

[David Sims]

My parents met at the Deauville Film Festival in the north of France where my grandmother used to work. And I then it was for listeners.

[Griffin Newman]

Is the French film festival that asks what if we watched American movies in France?

[David Sims]

Correct.

[Griffin Newman]

It is. That's what it is.

[David Sims]

I will say with as much respect as I can put on it, it is a festival that basically has no reason to exist anymore except to create.

[Griffin Newman]

Back in the day, it made more sense.

[David Sims]

Well, that. But that's why I'm saying it no longer has a reason to exist. I've been made one time. That's one time too many. We don't need another one.

[Ray Tantori]

Every year that that festival is creating more Griffin.

[David Sims]

This is a problem. It's unsustainable. We're flooding the economy. It was basically in an era where movies did not have global distribution, were sold off more piecemeal. Even big studio films were often being released by, like, local distributors. And it was basically like this fulcrum point between the big summer blockbusters and what were going to be the more serious fall movies, where the studios and independent films all went there and it was like this one shot, final leg of a press tour. Bring all your stars to the north of France to a beach and have them promote the movie and get enough buzz that maybe then you're able to sell off the smaller European rights to these other films or use it as a launching pad before there were kind of global press tours. It was like a way to trick stars into having a vacation and doing one last batch of interviews or whatever. My parents meet there. My grandmother worked there for many years. I. I was trying to do the math on this. I think it probably would have been the second or third year my parents had. Then after they met here, would go every year. Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, yes, yes.

[David Sims]

Basically for their anniversary. Right. It is either the place where Blood simple premiered or the second festival. IMDb lists something slightly earlier in the USA Film Festival, which I cannot find any.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, the USA Film Festival was the Sundance. The progenitor to the Sundance Film Festival.

[David Sims]

But it, by all accounts, premieres at Sundance the following January.

[Griffin Newman]

Did it premiere there?

[David Sims]

Deauville would have been. Or I'm sorry, not premiere there.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it doesn't premiere there.

[David Sims]

It plays at Sundance the following day. Correct.

[Griffin Newman]

It had already done Deauville, Tiff and New York.

[Ray Tantori]

Wasn't Toronto, like, a big turning point for the.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, it's early in Toronto's shift from sort of the festival of festivals, which is what it used to be, too.

[David Sims]

Like, the powerhouse Deauville happens, like, one week before Toronto, which is another thing that has killed that festival, as, like, Toronto and Venice have gotten even bigger. But it possibly was the first place it played, and at least it was the second. And my parents and their friend Susan, who was their best friend in the early 80s, would tell me all the time when I was growing up, them being there, looking through the, like, brochure of all the movies and being like, the Cohen brothers. There's an awar film by the Joel and Ethan Cohen, hey, guys.

[Griffin Newman]

We made a noir movie, Basic.

[David Sims]

And seeing these, like, guys walk around and for, like, five days, this being their joke of, like, yeah, we should go see Blood Simple. And then they went to see it, and we're just like, holy shit. It is one of the most profound moviegoing experiences my parents ever had, because they were like, we're mocking the idea of these guys and how shitty this sounds on paper. Why have two Minnesota Jews made, like, a Texas neo noir? And then seeing it and being like, who the fuck are these guys? Immediately. So I also grew up with that, where my parents would constantly just talk about the experience of, like, a thing that basically no one ever got ever again of, like, going into a Coen brothers movie without any reputation. Because right after this, it starts their run of basically playing this movie, playing festivals for, like, over a year and just building momentum.

[Ray Tantori]

And movies don't really do that anymore.

[Griffin Newman]

They don't so it looks like Billy started off with a Yoda scene because it was like Empire Strikes Back.

[David Sims]

It was the re release.

[Griffin Newman]

Uh huh.

[David Sims]

Nice.

[Griffin Newman]

And then he's, he's doing, he's on the phone with Jerry Maguire. He's shirtless. I don't mean to stun anyone here.

[David Sims]

He's telling the show.

[Griffin Newman]

And then he, then he switches phones to talk to Brenda Blethen. Funny in Secrets and Lies.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, and she's like, she's telling.

[David Sims]

Some of the secrets and some of the lies.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And then he's getting a hug from Armin Mueller Stahl. Then we got Fargo. He's got his, you know, got the cop outfit on. She's cute. And then he's talking to Buscemi.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Then he's back to Cruz in the locker room.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, did they do the wood tripper?

[Jordan Fish]

They did the total silence scene.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, they did that scene. Then they have him, he's in the cave in the English creation with Kristen Scott Thomas. And then the thing I remember the most, they do the plane crash from English Patient. Letterman going like, you know, Oprah, Oprah, yeah. Which is funny.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

Gotta bring it back.

[David Sims]

And then he, my parents had to lean in and go, he did a bad job. It's what he did.

[Griffin Newman]

Last year I, I saw the Letterman Oscars. Anyway, Blood Simple. It is one of the most undeniable debuts in film history, I would say, where you're like, well, these guys surely have made 20 movies to make something this like honed and precise and like sort of confident. And instead it's like, no, they're a couple of squirrely youngsters.

[David Sims]

And yet I feel like when asked, they continue. They forever say, this is obviously our worst movie. It's clumsy and amateurish.

[Griffin Newman]

They say that, yes.

[Jordan Fish]

They rag on it endlessly. When they did the director's cut rerelease, it was shorter because they were like.

[Griffin Newman]

It was badly edited the first time by them obviously.

[David Sims]

Right. They view it as like, well, that's the last time we're not going to get everything right because we were still learning.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah. This is a great moment when they're going through like shot by shot with Sonnenfeld where they. Where like Gats is sitting in a chair at. On the set of the apartment that the two lovers sort of on the run, moved into. And he's just like sitting in a chair and the wall is sort of like grayish blue and he's wearing a grayish blue denim shirt. And I think Joel just stares at the shot. And is like, that wall is something that we're not going to be doing again.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow, Ray Jordan, your Cohen's experience, maybe you have covered this on the podcast.

[David Sims]

A little bit, but I don't.

[Ray Tantori]

I'm trying to figure it out because Hudsucker was a big deal in my house.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Ray Tantori]

My mom's friend Sheila had one of the cable boxes where you could. Like, where she got all the channels.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Ray Tantori]

And then she would tape movies off of HBO and give them to my mom in the mid-90s.

[Griffin Newman]

Shout out to Sheila.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah. And Hudsucker. And Hudsucker was a movie that we would. We would watch a lot of.

[David Sims]

That was the first one you think you saw, so.

[Griffin Newman]

But I also saw thing to a family friendly movie they made.

[Ray Tantori]

But I also saw Fargo in theaters and was, like, really blown away by it. And I remember just, like, feeling like it was the first adult movie going experience in a theater that I'd had in a very distinct way. Like, just walking out of it being like, I can't breathe. You know, like, I've been holding my breath the last 30 minutes of this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm gonna argue you were too young for Fargo in theaters, Jordan. You're probably a couple years older than me. Right.

[Ray Tantori]

But still, I was. I was. I was a minor.

[Griffin Newman]

I was 10 when that movie came out, and it was rated 18 again. Geez. Maybe also because of the severance. Leg severance.

[Ray Tantori]

But the thing is, I'm not sure again, I'm not sure, like, which one of them we would watch, which I, like, I watched first. And I also don't think I knew that it was the same directors I knew. I know that when. I know that when Lebowski came out, I knew that was the next movie after Fargo, and I was excited to see that in theaters. And I saw, like. And, like, moving forward. I feel like coming into the city to see a Coen Brothers movie a week or two before it went wide was, like, a big part of, like, my early New York City experiences, because I, like, grew up right outside the city.

[David Sims]

Yeah. To see the early platform release of yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

Like, oh, Brother or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

I think I was so aware of how much my parents revered them that even when, like, there was a new Cohen movie coming out, like Lebowski, I was absorbing the sense of, like, people seem cooler on this one. Then saw a brother in theater, which makes sense as, like, their most family friendly movie since Hudsucker. And then after that, I think pretty quickly, like, watched every one of their movies on DVD or started that project and then would go see everyone that came out. Here's another thing about them. For a very long time, they were once a year guys, they were like clockwork.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Where if you're a budding cinephile, it's really easy to be like, I can latch onto these guys. What's the next Cohen movie? I'm filling in the backlog and I'm like looking forward to the future.

[Griffin Newman]

I would say they're kind of once every couple years in terms of the spacing between their movies. Yeah, they were very, very reliably working all the way up to.

[Ray Tantori]

I guess, mid 2000s. Really? Yeah, it's really 2010s rather even then.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like it's True Grit inside Lou and Davis. Hell, Caesar Scruggs. That's four movies in that decade, each of them about three years apart. Like, it's like, you know, they, they worked very consistently.

[David Sims]

That's. Look, when they announced that they're. They're sabbatical from working together, I feel like that was the number one thing cited.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Was just like, Ethan feels burned out.

[Griffin Newman]

It's been a lot. Right. And they would have side projects, they'd release fiction, they would do some stage stuff. Like it's like, yeah, they were busy. One of them should make a video game.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's a great idea.

[Griffin Newman]

Thanks.

[David Sims]

Ray, your history with the cons.

[Jordan Fish]

I remember the roma Pizza on 7th Avenue in the 90s was just a shrine to the career of John Turturro. It was just all signed John Turturro stuff. So I remember the Barton Fink poster in there. Seeing that as a little kid. And my parents being like, this is a movie about a guy who can't write and is being attacked by a mosquito. So I thought the whole movie was just him v Mosquito. And then I remember seeing Hudsucker Proxy in a movie theater in LA and my parents being like, wow, they blew it.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. The general consensus on that one and.

[Jordan Fish]

That being like an out of body experience, seeing that as a little kid, it's so heightened and cartoonish and the whole hula hoop scene. I remember like all that stuff, like the, you know, for kids. Like that totally landed on me as like an elementary school kid. Best joke I ever heard.

[David Sims]

Right, right.

[Jordan Fish]

And then, yeah, saw Fargo in the movie theater with my mom and my sister. We were both super young, but it was like just a cultural event. And I think it was like it was post Pulp Fiction and there was a sense that like, well, we can take them to this. Like, we can't take them to Pulp Fiction, but we can take them to Fargo.

[David Sims]

Pulp Fiction created a new bar of what isn't child appropriate, which then, sort of on a curve, made Fargo seem like more queen. I mean, it's also. It's like. Right. It's. Fargo does have this weird amount of, like, Looney Tunes energy and as violent as it gets. It's sort of a comedy of manners in the same way. Yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

It's a cultural portrait of. Of like, a particular type of, like, a particular part of Minnesota. Like.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

But just. Just became obsessed with that. Saw a preview of Big Lebowski also. Everyone at Big Lebowski was like, that sucked. Like, at the first screening. And people were like, why wasn't that, like, Fargo?

[Ray Tantori]

People don't remember that.

[David Sims]

Um, I. I have this very distinct memory of, like, going over to dinner with my parents and my siblings, to their friends, a couple with a young kid. We were all, like, eating pizza together or whatever, and they had just seen Big Lebowski, and we're just like. We are befuddled. Like, what are they doing? Why did they blow it in the same way as Hudsucker? Of, like, everyone just took them seriously, and now they're doing some weird lark.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember at the time, there were like, one to two critics in Britain who are like, psst. I kind of liked Lebowski. And they were saying it in this way of like, I know this is crazy, but I actually think there's some stuff to that one, you know, like. And within really just three or four years, it had completely turned around.

[Ray Tantori]

I mean, it was like the dvd, like, yes.

[David Sims]

The supernovae thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But like, that run of Lebowski to oh, brother. To man who wasn't there, you know, like, it's not like they were out of critical favor exactly, but they're. It was kind of like, huh, not another Fargo in these guys, huh?

[Jordan Fish]

I remember seeing this in the theaters for the first time. The re release.

[Griffin Newman]

Bloodstream 2000, I think. Right?

[Jordan Fish]

2000. The shorter version with the music that wasn't on the VHS put back in. I saw it at the quad in an empty theater, Just me, Joel Schumacher, and Joel Schumacher's assistant.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

The big three.

[David Sims]

Well, Joel's gotta keep their tabs on other Joels. They got to know what the Joels are cooking.

[Griffin Newman]

One of the nicest directors I ever met, joshumacher.

[David Sims]

I've told the story many times of him.

[Griffin Newman]

He was. He was not so kind to you.

[David Sims]

I asked him. I asked him for direction on how to play a scene in a fourth callback I had for him. And he said, I think acting is a lot like, where if you're asking for help for how to do it, you're probably doing it wrong.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're like, I do that all the time.

[David Sims]

That's what I said. He didn't think it was funny.

[Jordan Fish]

His hair looked incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he had really amazing using here.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Ben. What's up, Griff? No, I have a hard time tracking where my money goes.

[Griffin Newman]

Geez, you're telling me I can't keep.

[David Sims]

Track of this thing and I own it until I give it away in exchange for goods or services.

[Griffin Newman]

I truly don't know what's coming in, what's coming out.

[David Sims]

I'm dining out. I'm eating food. I'm putting food in my system. I'm handing money out of my wallet over to a restaurant. Yeah. And I go, where did that dang stuff go?

[Griffin Newman]

No idea.

[David Sims]

Not to mention food delivery, online shopping, retail therapy. Ever heard of it? Cha ching, cha ching, cha ching. Yeah, I hear it. And I'm not getting rich doing that.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

Everyone else is getting rich around me, and I've lost track.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, here's the thing, Griff. Finances can be messy and confusing. Monarch Money acts like your personal cfo, giving you full visibility and control so you can stop earning and and start growing.

[David Sims]

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[Griffin Newman]

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[David Sims]

Monarch is the financial tool people actually love. Join over 1 million households. Sounds like something Dr. Evil would say. They were named Wall Street Journal's best budgeting app of 2025. That's this year. And the top recommended personal Finance app by users and experts with over 30,000 five star reviews. So listen, get control of your overall finances with Monarch Money. Use code check@monimal money.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at Monarch Money with code check. I was thinking that I probably saw this for the first time on the DVD release after the Director's cut re release. Which means I've never seen A, the longer version.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Which I feel like is totally out of circulation now. Or B, the VHS version of the longer version.

[Griffin Newman]

How much longer is the longer.

[David Sims]

Three minutes. Okay. Yeah, but it's not just like they cut one scene out. They like tighten sequences and change shots and. But it's a three minute shorter. But the other. The VHS version uses Neil Diamond I'm.

[Jordan Fish]

A Believer, which is great song.

[David Sims]

It's the same old song. Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

Quite haunting.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember that rerelease. I was sort of vaguely aware of the movie. I began becoming vaguely aware of the Coen brothers and all that. And the poster obviously for the rerelease was the Shovel. And I was like, so is I would. I confused this movie in another debut by a cry me filmmaker Danny Boyle. Shallow Grave.

[David Sims]

Oh, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Where I was like, man, in the 90s or whatever. Like back in the day, people, right, were digging shallow graves.

[Ray Tantori]

I guess Casino also.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, Casino. I mean, I just remember Mystery man.

[David Sims]

The Rational Shovel movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And hey, that's William H. Macy.

[David Sims]

Well, hang on.

[Griffin Newman]

Cohen's favorite.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Blood Simple. I'm going to read from the dossier. Joel Daniel Cohen was born November 29, 1953. A Thanksgiving boy. A plump Thanksgiving turkey.

[David Sims]

You think he was plump?

[Griffin Newman]

No, I'm sure he came out of string bean.

[David Sims]

He looks like fucking Spike from Peanuts. I know. I invoke Spike recently on some other episode. Was trying to explain Spike to Ben, but I was watching all these fucking special features last night and I was like, who does Joel Cohen look like? And it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Now he looks like Spike.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. So he was born in 1953. Ethan Jesse Cohen arrives in this world, 1950, September 21, 1957. They have an older sister, Debbie. Deborah. Dad. Edward was a professor at Economics at the University of Minnesota. And they grew up in Minneapolis. Right. Edward was born in the us but he actually grew up overseas. His grandfather, Victor.

[David Sims]

Okay, so Joel.

[Griffin Newman]

So Edward's father was a barrister at the Inns of Court in London. Of course. Order.

[David Sims]

The listeners at home. David is wearing a powdered wig.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep. I remember when he retired, my grandparents went to live in Hove, which is a seaside town next to Brighton. I can tell you exclusively, JJ didn't look it up for him. Yep. And we used to live in there. My father actually lived. Grew up in London. I think he lived in Croydon. Purley is a neighborhood in Croydon which just sort of South London suburbs. And he had very British tastes in movies. They would watch all the Ealing comedies and things like that. Cohen's mother, Rena, is a professor of art history at St. Cloud State University, which is another Twin Cities place. They're Ashkenazi Jews. They're from Poland.

[David Sims]

Russia.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, Edward was in the army.

[David Sims]

You must be looking at the wrong dossier. We're talking about the Cohen brothers now.

[Griffin Newman]

They are Jewish. I will tell you this now exclusively reveal to you that the Cohen are Minnesota Jews.

[Ray Tantori]

The directors of True Grit.

[Griffin Newman]

Edward was in the army during World War II, and they were raised relatively traditionally, moderately strict. We, of course, will be wrestling with something I'm sure you guys have wrestled with a little bit when you did your podcast. The Cohens are a little taciturn, not huge on kind of discussing their motivations and interests. They'll do a lot of interviews. It's not like they don't do press.

[Ray Tantori]

We would like to gently debunk.

[David Sims]

Okay, go do it.

[Ray Tantori]

I would say that they're not film professors, you know, of their own work, but they've been pretty forthcoming over the years. I mean, there's many you guys have.

[Griffin Newman]

Been delving through, too, like you've been seeing it all together.

[Ray Tantori]

I think it's interesting that there's this received wisdom about them that they, like, won't explain their movies, like, kind of on the same level as David lynch or something, where it's like, no, I'm not telling you anything. And it's like. I think it's mainly just because they sort of embed jokes and sarcasm into their answers a lot of the time. Like, they're Jewish.

[Griffin Newman]

This is interesting.

[Ray Tantori]

That's.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, go on.

[Ray Tantori]

Like. Like in the. In the preface to this book, like, they. They give some advice to writers where they say, keep going until. Until the work is boring to you, and then that's when you know to stop. Because it's. It's the sort of arena of the amateur who. Who doesn't have the imagination to quit. Who keeps going and going. And then, like, the question would be, is like, is that a completely. Is that completely sincere advice, or are they fudgeing with the reader? You know, But I do Think that they, you know, they'll get on a Blu Ray and go through all of Blood simple with Barry Sonnenfeld, like shot by shot by shot, talking about how they made it, what they were going for.

[David Sims]

So our buddy Sean, fantasy of the big picture was talking on some recent episode, but it was somewhere in the transition period coming out of Oscar season and going into 2025 movie preview where he was comparison, he was comparison. He was comparing Brady Courbet to Paul Thomas Anderson, right? And he was saying like, as we're getting out of this Oscar season, the thing I think that everyone's exhausted with is Brady Courbet like explaining the themes of his movie 8,000 times. And he was putting that in contrast as to Paul Thomas Anderson who never explains his movies at all. That when he goes and does press and he'll do long form interviews, he will talk and he'll talk openly about stuff. But the thing he doesn't want to tell you at all is how to read his movie versus Brady Courbet being like, here's everything and this is exactly how I intended. And he was like, it's this thing that makes sense because Paul Thomas Anderson was totally like that when he started out. He was like such an early DVD commentary guy, such an early, I'm telling you all my ambitions for this and how I want it to be received. And I'm speaking of the frustration of the elements that are misunderstood and all that sort of stuff. And he's like, it makes sense. If you're a certain kind of film nerd and you grow up like loving movies and then studying their construction and then like learning how to analyze them more deeply. That your greatest dream is to make a movie that people can read as deeply as you've read other films. And when these guys get the chance where they're finally in that sort of spotlight, it's very hard for them to resist the temptation to start that conversation themselves. Which ultimately doesn't do the movie that much of a favor. And most guys learn to, as time goes on, back off and get a little more elusive. And what do you say versus what don't you say? I think what is unique about the Cohen's is like they have consistently been in sort of like old master phase from the beginning. There is no point in time where you're reading clumsy interviews with them where they're kind of exposing themselves.

[Griffin Newman]

I wonder, I wonder if we'll dig.

[David Sims]

Up like they have been from the beginning. And I think that's the difference is a lot of times when we do this show and JJ's digging through, you know, like the quotes from the first.

[Griffin Newman]

Couple, digging through the shallow grave of quotes from early.

[David Sims]

He's putting the shovel on the ground. Sometimes you're like, oh, it's a lot easier to find more information in the earlier stages of their career where they haven't been as media trained, right. And they're like less guarded. And also they're willing to talk about these things like 25 years later with more distance. And the Cohen's like recut their own movie and have spoken extensively about this film. It's not like they've disowned it or tried to make a mystery box around it.

[Ray Tantori]

And they didn't massively recut it. Sorry to jump in. They tweaked it, they tightened it up. They didn't cut whole scenes or. But put whole scenes in there.

[David Sims]

This fascinating balance of them being like, yeah, we're like a little embarrassed by this, but we're also not distancing ourselves from it. Right. And I was watching one of these things on the Criterion disc and they just said the thing that they always say, which I think some people think they are using this to throw people off their scent. I believe with them it's genuine. And they were talking about their sense of structure. And Ethan said, I don't know what a three act structure is. He makes a joke of, I've heard rumors of this and I've never seen it myself. And he's like, I never think about that stuff at all. I think we've watched so many things and read so many things that to some degree we've internalized some innate sense of structure. But we never do that consciously. And then Joel says something to the effect of our basic writing process is let's come up with enough ideas that excite us that we're ready to start writing. Then we start writing and we're like, I guess it'd be cool if this happened next. And then they go, wow, feels like about time to wrap things up that they like tend to write straight through from beginning to end once they just have enough ideas percolating and they're not thinking consciously about how to design these things like Swiss watches with the intent of people pulling them apart later.

[Griffin Newman]

That's hard to believe.

[David Sims]

It is because their movies are so.

[Ray Tantori]

Good and they are very switch Swiss watch like as well. Like they're.

[Griffin Newman]

That's why I don't believe them, I think. I'm not calling them liars.

[Jordan Fish]

I feel like the, the big story we Always heard is in Llewyn Davis there's this part where he's driving past Akron and there's like an off ramp to go to Akron where he knows he's just found out his son is living who he's never met. And they were like, we were riding it and we were like, oh, the off ramp for Akron's coming up. Is Lewin going to take it? And they were like, no, no, no, he doesn't take it. And just as they're writing, they decided like that whole section of the movie is not going to happen.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

Like that. I love that they're not idiot savants, but the way they're sometimes present themselves a little bit as it's maddening where you're like, me? Are you guys just perfect instincts? How is that possible? And then they'll talk about how prepared they are in terms of shooting, that.

[Griffin Newman]

They have an excellent reputation throughout Hollywood for being incredibly good, on time, under budget, all that kind of stuff. Like very, very.

[David Sims]

That they're like, right. Very disciplined, very storyboard.

[Griffin Newman]

The two headed director, right?

[David Sims]

They're like, we see other directors who get the kind of buzz from showing up on set and not totally knowing what you're going to do. And that sort of pressure inspires them. And that's our nightmare. And we'll change the plan if something isn't working. But we want to come to this set knowing exactly how it should work. In contrast to the script seemingly coming out of just like, I don't know, it just like flows out of us and we ask ourselves the questions like, should he take the off ramp? And then we just go from there.

[Ray Tantori]

Another good story in a similar vein is they wrote all of Fargo up until Steve Buscemi's character is quote, humping the escort and then could not figure out what would happen next. And like basically put it in a drawer for, you know, six months or a year or something.

[Griffin Newman]

Which certainly that does seem to be sometimes part of their process. Like when they hit a wall, they don't ram into the wall. They're just kind of like, okay, if.

[David Sims]

It'S not coming to us, then we have to come back until it's makes sense.

[Jordan Fish]

They wrote Barton Fink, I think, in the middle of trying to write Miller's Crossing and said that that was the birthday, the birth almost of a new process where it was like instead of trying to create a mousetrap contraption type script, it was like, this is one idea that just came out.

[Griffin Newman]

Now look, Ray, I don't know if you Know this, but the Cohen's grew up in kind of a boring suburban part of Minnesota called St. Louis Park. And Ethan said, I like this quote a lot. And this is a classic Ethan Cohen quote. To me, it was the suburbs, you know, I cannot think of a single seminal childhood event.

[Ray Tantori]

I relate to that so much.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Someone's like, come on, tell me something from your childhood that might inform, like, clearly your work is informed by your adolescence sometimes. And he's just like, yeah, I can't think of anything. 18 years blank. Joel says Bob Dylan got out of Minnesota at an early age. And you can see why. These guys are really roasted in Minnesota. They don't live there. Right. They live in la. I want to say New York.

[David Sims]

New York.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know. Yeah, bicoastal.

[David Sims]

Okay. I feel like they're more New York though. Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe.

[David Sims]

I don't know. Where the winds blow.

[Jordan Fish]

Recommend everyone check out Pedro Cohen's Instagram page if you want.

[Griffin Newman]

I used to. On Pedro. He was so. Because he was like, he's. Is he a bodybuilder, a model, or. He's sort of like an aspiring kind of.

[Ray Tantori]

He's living the life.

[Griffin Newman]

He is living. That is the thing.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember Katie Rich, our mutual friend.

[David Sims]

Son of Joel and Francis.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Katie Rich was the one who got me into Pedro McDormand Cohen's great Instagram years ago. Anyway, so when the Coen brothers are growing up, they watched a lot of movies. Ethan. We saw a lot of Tarzan movies and Steve Reeves muscle movies.

[David Sims]

Cool.

[Griffin Newman]

They liked comedies, you know, kind of like British Farsi comedies.

[David Sims]

Boeing, Boeing.

[Griffin Newman]

Boeing. Boeing, yeah. Which is a great play and a kind of okay movie. Bob Hope movies. Jerry Lewis movies. Tony Curtis. They like Doris Day movies. They like Pillow Talk. We didn't realize we were watching crap is what Joel says. Like, they just loved movies. They got their hands on a Super 8 camera. They remade a lot of bad Hollywood movies. Their most successful in their memory are Cornell Wilde's Naked Prey and Auto Preventers. Advice and Consent. They said they didn't really understand they would edit in camera. Obviously they didn't realize they could edit film physically by cutting it up and stuff. I'm not gonna read all of this.

[Ray Tantori]

They also made a movie called Henry Kissinger, man on the Move.

[David Sims]

I was gonna say that sounds good. They bring that up at the Oscars when they win for no Country. I forget which of their three acceptance.

[Ray Tantori]

Speeches my guest is directing, if I.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but they say, like, when we were kids, we'd run around in the backyard with briefcases and make movies like Henry Kissinger, Band on the Move. And what's weird to us is that what we're doing now still feels exactly the same as that. And I do think that's part of their secret. And it's a benefit to being a team, and a team that knows each other so well and can communicate, like, wordlessly and has a shared reference base and interest base. And they always talk about watching movies together and reading books together and, like, being in tandem like that. Is that to some degree, I think they're trying to retain the purity of when they made movies as children and would just be, like, what's interesting enough to us to be worth the effort of pulling together costumes.

[Jordan Fish]

There's a lot of play acting, like, when they talk about.

[David Sims]

And don't question it. Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

People describing seeing them write the script. It's just the two of them. One's playing one character, one's playing the other, and they're just doing scenes together. When they talk about storyboarding it, they're getting up with their storyboard artist, J. Todd Anderson, all acting out the scenes.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah. When we interviewed J. Todd, he said that the reason he got the job, or one of the reasons he got the job storyboarding Raising Arizona is because he was willing to act out the drawing with them.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

And there's. Even in this movie, there's like 40 to 50 shots which are literally just starring the Coen brothers. Shot by Barry Sonnenfeld. There are. There's so many pickup shots in this movie down to, like, that little drip of water. That's the very last shot of the movie. All the burial scenes, these. The fight scene out in the lawn. There was a lot of, like, just.

[Ray Tantori]

Like, boots on the ground stuff, like, anytime.

[David Sims]

Well, obviously, I imagine the dossier is going to get to this, but, like, they're meeting Raimi is so humongous.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, okay, Let me hit the gas on the dossier. Okay, okay. Just because, you know, this is a big episode.

[David Sims]

But that's like a real Raimi filmmaking principle thing of just, like, just get the shot.

[Griffin Newman]

They go to Bard College of Simon's Rock for a minute, which is the sort of hippie early college where you can get in when you're 16 years old. But then Joel goes to NYU and studies film there. I wanted to keep making movies, and that was an easy school to get into.

[Jordan Fish]

He says.

[Griffin Newman]

Another description of time at NYU is our professors weren't famous directors. They'd made a career essentially in teaching. Joel. I was ciphered There I sat in the back of the room with an insane grin on my face. I do think, like, my mom has friends who. One friend I'm thinking of in particular who would always say, like, I went to NYU back when it was bad.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, NYU only became kind of the, like, insane powerhouse that became in, like, the 90s, it suddenly was cooler to want to go to New York for university.

[David Sims]

Also needed a couple generations of successful graduates.

[Griffin Newman]

And then the film school, Right.

[David Sims]

There's a track record there, right?

[Griffin Newman]

And he does. Joel makes a short film there called Soundings, which is about a deaf person whose girlfriend fantasizes about someone else while she's making love to him. Have you guys seen Soundings?

[David Sims]

That is not viewable.

[Jordan Fish]

Never even heard of it.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah, yeah. This was new to me reading about it.

[David Sims]

Okay, well, J.J. just got rehired, I gotta tell you.

[Griffin Newman]

Then Joel went to a graduate film program at the University of Texas in Austin, and he married somebody and then got separated soon after and left the program after just a semester. Ethan went to Princeton and studied philosophy.

[Ray Tantori]

Okay, King, Our comrade Melissa Tuckman, who has some affiliation with Princeton, has put in a request for Ethan Cohen's thesis on Wittgenstein. So in three to four months, we may be able to read it from the archives.

[Griffin Newman]

That sounds fun.

[Jordan Fish]

It's 45 pages. It's the longest thing he wrote before the blood. Simple script.

[Griffin Newman]

That's crazy.

[Ray Tantori]

Well, that's like academic writing, you know, it's.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff about college. I'm going to move on.

[David Sims]

JJ's fired again.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. They wrote their first scripts together while still enrolled in school. A movie they'd written that was never produced was called coast to coast, which was sort of a screwball comedy. Ethan, for the plot details here. It had 28 Einsteins in it. The Red Chinese were cloning Albert Einstein. Okay. And then after they graduate, they move to New York City and they feel like this is when they actually start to get to know each other. Like, obviously, three years difference when you're a kid is big. By now they're both grown up and they become real pals, apparently. And Joel works as an assistant editor for Edna Ruth. Paul. Ethan works at a temp agency as a typist. You were telling me, Ray? I think the data entry.

[Jordan Fish]

Data entry at Macy's eventually maybe.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And then Joel starts work on Sam Raimi's film the Evil Dead as his assistant editor. He'd been fired from another movie called Nightmare, and he says that Evil Dead's Obviously an inspiration. A lot of stuff in her film, like the camera running up the front lawn is Raimi inspired. Raimi's first impression of the Cohens. Edna, our editor says, you got to read these guys scripts. And I go, oh, God. You know, Joel's brothers was just a statistical accountant in Macy's at the time. And I thought it was probably gonna be awful. And then I read it and I thought, wow, these guys know how to write scripts. Okay, thank you, Sam. Really interesting.

[David Sims]

Hey, I think it's interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

It is interesting.

[David Sims]

What I think is interesting about thinking of that moment in time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Is like, Joel has successfully started getting work in the industry.

[Griffin Newman]

He's doing film work.

[David Sims]

He's bottom of the totem pole editing the lowest budget horror movies, but he is employed working on films. And then he's got this mystery brother with this day job who they keep saying, like, they write scripts together who on. On their face, I think were received the way my parents received the idea of like, who the are these guys making a neon noir. But. But Remy was one of the first to sort of like, give him the shot. Read it. Notice that they were good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And then I think what they're getting from Raimi in such a huge way is like this guy just went out and fucking.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the thing. He had financed his movies by like, bothering dentists in Detroit or whatever it is that Sam Raimi did. And they were like, well, we could probably do that, right?

[David Sims]

Like, can you get like 60 financiers who each are contributing less than $10,000 and you can just keep knocking on doors? You might have enough to make a movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Now. Raimi had essentially made a short film called within the Woods. That was his proof of concept. They decide to do something similar. So over three days, they shoot sort of a trailer for Blood simple, right? They rent a camera.

[David Sims]

Did you watch this, David?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, I did.

[David Sims]

You guys, I'm sure, have seen Legendary. Yeah, yeah, it's basically.

[Griffin Newman]

And of course, most famously, Bruce Campbell is in it.

[David Sims]

He's playing the M.M. walsh analog. Or is he Hidea.

[Jordan Fish]

He's playing Marty.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he's playing the Dan Hidea.

[Jordan Fish]

But in it, it almost seems like they have the Visser character because the. The guy who's playing the guest character has this like, long fur coat on.

[Ray Tantori]

He's a cowboy. He's like much more of a cowboy. Like, he's got kind of looks like the cowboy in Mulholland Drive.

[Jordan Fish]

Seriously? Yeah.

[David Sims]

You basically. Monty Montgomery, you basically don't see actors faces in this they were like, our thing is, rather than make a proof of concept short film, let's make a trailer as if we have made the finished film. Because correctly. They were like, no one wants to read shit. Both like, people in the industry and dentists who will maybe give me a couple thousand dollars don't want to read shit. They said they had the script and only one guy actually read it who was a urologist. And he handed them back the script and it was covered in blood.

[Ray Tantori]

I think he invested, though.

[David Sims]

He did. He did invest, but he was like, if you say to people like, hey, can I show you something? And we showed up with a 16 millimeter projector. They shot the trailer on 35, but then they, like, knocked it down to 16 so that it was in a format that was easy enough to then, like, prop up and show people.

[Ray Tantori]

Super cool, because you can walk in with a little 60 millimeter projector that's like a suitcase, like. Like a little briefcase.

[David Sims]

And we're like, this will just get people's attention. And they would, like, book screening rooms in New York City. And they were like, well, we know you usually charge by two hour blocks. How much can we get 15 minutes for? And then just like funnel people in and out and show them this thing. The trailer is even more Raimi than the final movie. Yes, but they talk so much about. I mean, a. I.

[Griffin Newman]

It's got the shovel, it's got the bullet holes through the wall.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ray Tantori]

The Raimi cam.

[Griffin Newman]

But it has images that are gonna be, you know, pivotal to the feature.

[David Sims]

You don't really see any actors because they hadn't cast people. But they're, like, showing you some of the images they have in their head. And then they're doing kind of crazier Raimi camera work work. And what's also interesting is it, it feels more horror than the final film. And they talked about, like, Raimi was a model of this working. But we also saw other people getting to make horror movies at this number. It felt like the easiest way to get a little bit of money was horror was seen as a safer return on investment that didn't cost a lot. And so they're finding this midpoint in their mind between, like, we're interested in, like, Dashiell Hammett type stuff. Can we, like, find a way to mash that up with horror that will trick people into giving us money.

[Jordan Fish]

The final image of the trailer is the moon looms up and turns red.

[Griffin Newman]

It's pretty cool. The tagline, just to clarify is, Julian, whatever. What's the last name? Come on.

[Ray Tantori]

They might have changed his name in the chat.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it is Julian Marty thought he'd hired the murderer. Thought he had hired the murderer of his wife. When in Texas you get what you pay for blood sample anyway. They do and Sonnenfeld's obviously involved. Raise about half a million dollars, which is pretty crazy. They say the movie eventually ended up costing about quarter, three quarters of a million dollars. Back in the day, to be clear, it was fucking hard to fund the tiniest movie because film shit is so expensive and you can't just put things on an iPhone or whatever, you know. They raised the movie in money in New York as you know, the screening room thing you were just talking about. And they wanted to make an entertaining movie. Like this trailer is for an entertaining movie. It's not like we're going to make an art film. It's like we're going to make a fucking thriller.

[David Sims]

Eggers talk. He kept asking them where it came from and they were just truly like reverse engineered from what feels like the easiest to get financing for what feels like the easiest to sell people on actually going to see in theaters what gives us the greatest chance of return on investment. And they were like our two overriding goals were make our first movie. Just knock down that door and have made a film was one and two was not fuck it up to a degree that we can maybe get to make a second film. But this like isn't coming out of any burning. Like we had the most incredible idea for a story or this is something we want to say. It's what's so fascinating about this movie is that they were just sort of like trying to find the midpoint between what interested them and what they thought would work as a calling card.

[Griffin Newman]

Now I would say this film is coming out during a Neo noir boom. I don't know if you guys would agree with that.

[Jordan Fish]

They're very conscious of Body Heat While they were prepping this movie that made sense. Things, things that they thought were kind of cheesy in Body Heat that they wanted to avoid.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah. They didn't want like halation filters on the lenses.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Ray Tantori]

Really sharp.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? Yeah. Because Body Heat, it's kind of a sweaty movie. Have you guys picked up on this with that one? It's kind of got this kind of like sweaty, sexy thing going on.

[David Sims]

Well, as a result of the Body Heat. So hot. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And you know the. The Bob Raffleson Postman Always Rings Twice remake which is like to me the epitome of kind of A bad neon or no offense to it, where it's kind of just like, you know, that kind of like sexy noir. What if they like fuck and we see it?

[David Sims]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

You know what? Sometimes things should be left to the imagination. Like, that's the magic of noir. Right? But there's lots of good noir and there's like Thief and then there's stuff like Blade Runner, you know, that is sort of adjacent or whatever. But they are like, we're not really inspired by those kinds of movies. We're more inspired by like the literature that. That those kinds of movies are inspired by. So James M. Kane is obviously the number one guy they referenced for Blood Simple. Obviously guys like Chandler and Hammett as well. But Cain is the big thing. But they're not making a whodunit. Like many a noir obviously has that as the driving plot thing. They're just making a double cross movie, I guess.

[Ray Tantori]

Although in some sense there is a whodunit aspect to it. Just because the characters are so confused.

[Griffin Newman]

The characters definitely do not know who done pretty much anything in this movie.

[David Sims]

It's not a whodunit. So what happened?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, right. What the is going on?

[David Sims]

Is everyone trying to make sense of what's happening around them and then coming to the wrong conclusions about what they think led to that?

[Ray Tantori]

Yes, Actually it's the exact opposite of a whodunit. Like, you know who did it and.

[David Sims]

They don't, but you don't understand what they did or why. And everyone's just reacting.

[Griffin Newman]

So Jameson can't just be clear. Wrote A Postman Always Drinks Twice. Anyway, so they make this movie.

[David Sims]

Oh, wow, okay.

[Griffin Newman]

And Emmett Walsh was in written. It was written for him. You know, they'd seen him in straight time and he said he was.

[David Sims]

He'd gotten into a fight with his reps shortly before this because he found out about some other projects that had been offered to him that they passed on without telling him. So he said, any single thing that comes in for me, you have to send it to me immediately. I want to make the decision. But it's one of those things where, like, the timing is perfect for this script to hit his eyes. A month earlier, he never would have seen it. And maybe two months later he would have been like, actually, you can start filtering again. But it's like right at the time where he's like, any single thing that comes in the mailbox for me, I'm looking at. And he just says, like, why not? Like, truly who?

[Griffin Newman]

He's like, why not? He says they were horrible at directing actors because they never worked with actors before. A way he puts it, I think is really funny is Joel would be like, why don't you look over there? And that. He'd be like, why am I looking over there? And they'd be like, just humor me.

[Jordan Fish]

Just look over there.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, like, they weren't good at.

[David Sims]

Like, I'm shummering you by being in this picture. He insisted that they pay him in cash because he thought the whole damn.

[Griffin Newman]

Movie is just to humor you. He said, it's just funny. It's so Cohen's or whatever. It's so, like, for them to be like, I hope we can get MM at Walsh. Like, that's. That's the coup for them.

[David Sims]

Totally. But he's being paid in $100 bills. Most of the money you see him waving around in the movie is his salary for the movie, where he was just like, I am taking cash because I don't think these guys are good for it unless I have it in hand. And B, I don't want to leave the cash they're giving me in my hotel room because I'm worried that the staff will steal it.

[Ray Tantori]

Sonny's felt having no filter was like, you were paying him four grand a week. So then you have to imagine by, like, week three, he's walking around with 12 grand in cash.

[David Sims]

You can see the outline of, like, bills all over his wardrobe. He's wearing his entire salary in every shot of this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

So Fran McDormand is in the film. And Joel Cohen. I don't know if you guys know this. Actually ends up marrying her. They have a long relationship. You guys aware. Okay, can we double check that? And he was looking, going to a lot of theater, trying to find people who are interesting. He sees Holly Hunter in a play called Crimes of the Heart, and they want Holly Hunter. Good taste.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And of course, they'll end up working with her.

[David Sims]

She ends in this film, too.

[Griffin Newman]

She's on the phone. You might notice her voice. She's got a bit of a distinctive twang. And she's like, I'm doing another play. I can't do your dumb movie.

[David Sims]

You know who you should look at?

[Griffin Newman]

But I am roommates with Fran. They were living in the Bronx. Make me a movie about Holly and Fran in the Bronx, by the way.

[David Sims]

And.

[Griffin Newman]

And Kathleen Bates, the third roommate. And Fran had barely done anything. Dan Hedaya. Hedaya.

[David Sims]

Hedaya. I always say Hedaya.

[Griffin Newman]

I got it right. Just came in and they were like, yep. Ethan says Quote. You know it when you see it, Joel. I don't think we could have imagined the quality that Dan would have brought to. I don't know where Dan Hedaya is in his career.

[Jordan Fish]

I think cheers is in 84. I think 84 is a big year.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

It's all about to start happening.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Because he's in Bucky Banzai the same year as Blood simple, and he'd just been in the Hunger. I mean, like, he's a guy who plays a lot of cops. Like, hello, Jordan. You don't have to raise your hand. You can just interrupt us. We just talk all the time.

[David Sims]

We interrupt each other.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Ray Tantori]

They have said also that they wrote this character with Martin Scorsese in mind.

[David Sims]

Interesting.

[Ray Tantori]

Like, if you imagine like this, his entire character being an extrapolation of the taxi driver's character in Taxi Driver, I.

[David Sims]

Hide is my favorite performance in this movie. I think he is.

[Griffin Newman]

He's really good.

[David Sims]

Extraordinary.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

I find it to be like, I.

[Griffin Newman]

Mean, mm, Walsh is awesome.

[David Sims]

He's awesome.

[Griffin Newman]

It's an iconic work.

[David Sims]

That's the right. Iconic is the thing. But I'm like, and. And no disrespect, no backhand to enemy Walsh. I think what Hedaya is doing in this is so fascinating. I find it so deeply affecting. Is a performance that truly haunts me.

[Ray Tantori]

When he's on the ground and he's crawling around like, I think we were. We watched it like on a big screen at Rey's office. And it was just like off big screen, Ray.

[Griffin Newman]

All right.

[Ray Tantori]

I think rage just turned to me and was like, what he's doing right now is so incredible. It's like how wounded he is, like how pathetic he is.

[Griffin Newman]

At the same time, he's like an animal. And I don't mean that in like, what, like, I mean, he's got a hairy chest. Okay, fine. But you know, like, there's something just sort of like primal about him.

[Ray Tantori]

There's like taxidermy. Damn. Yeah, taxidermy. There's taxidermied animals all over his house and he has a dog. Like, there is something like, there's. It's an association with him.

[Jordan Fish]

The Speedo shot or the, the still photo?

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

What do you mean, speedo? He was wearing a two piece wool, black wool bodysuit.

[Ray Tantori]

He's wearing one of those old fashioned bathing suits that's like covers your whole body.

[David Sims]

Just made out of Brillo pants.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

We just did Clueless very recently on this podcast, and Amy Heckerling said her whole thought was, I Want to cast someone who would usually play a hitman as Cher's father. Right. It is like the inverse of this. This guy seems so intense and so menacing and so criminal to have him play like a sweetheart lawyer. But speaking with that level of gruffness and intensity to his daughter will be very funny. Hidea just looks intense when he shows up, right. It's not just his physical appearance, but also like his energy, literally his eyes and everything. Cheers. This same year, he's just like coming, like, yelling everything.

[Ray Tantori]

Speaking of criminal, his performance in Dick as. As Richard Nixon, criminally overlooked.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I was gonna say, I hope you weren't accusing him of being a criminal because he tells you that he is not a crook. In fact, in that movie, rewatching at this time, I had the specific thought of what is interesting about Hedaya, both the character as written and his performance is that it's sort of an anti Sydney Green street, right? Where it's like, here is the guy in the prime position of power within the structure of this movie. This is a very small movie with a very tight cast and the most capital anyone has is owning this bar and also having someone legally tied to them in marriage. Right? And yet from the beginning, this guy has no effect on everyone around him. It's true. He holds the power. He does undeniably. And yet everyone's like, shut up. Fuck you. Fuck off. Right? Like, no one respects him, no one takes him seriously. And also he like the. The failed attempt to pick up the woman at the bar.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure, yeah, yeah. Everything he does kind of fails.

[David Sims]

It fails, right? It's like, here's a guy who actually, it's not that he's Sidney Green street in his mind, it's that he is technically occupying that role. And yet he is so uncomfortable in his own skin. He is so self loathing. He is so sensitive, really. Right. Like, everything, like, hits him that he cannot, like, sell the confidence of his actual position in a way that makes other people allergic to him. Like, people are grossed out by him.

[Jordan Fish]

That scene is a lot longer in the shooting script. And he's like, hey, do you want to go see the Oilers and the Rams at the Astrodome with me? And Maurice comes by and he's like, just give me the usual. And Maurice brings him a glass of milk and he's like, no, come on. And then Maurice goes to pour out the glass of milk in the sink. He's like, no, pour it back in the bottle.

[Ray Tantori]

It's this extended Mikey and Nikki kind of scene.

[David Sims]

What's Also that he clearly goes like, I know how a guy like me is supposed to act. He walks into the bar and then just goes up to a woman and basically says, like, you're fucking me now. And he cannot sell it. And she just goes like, no, thank you. And he takes a second stab at it where he's like, I don't think you understood what I was saying. And she's like, yeah, I'm not interested. And you can see him short circuiting, that he doesn't know how to, like, handle this. And yet this is probably every fucking night of his life, right? Like this kind of archetype of like the gangster with the wife who hates him, who he finds out is having an affair. And it, like, sends him into a spiral of jealousy where the. There is always the like, yeah, but this guy's fucking everybody. He's not angry that his wife is disloyal to him because he believes in the sanctity of marriage. He's just jealous in a way that he can't control. And this guy's even more pathetic where it's like he wishes he was fucking other people and he can't pull it off. So part of it is just like, I'm jealous and possessive and also I can't make anyone else fall for me. I tricked one woman, right?

[Griffin Newman]

He's the most small time version of. Right. Like, yeah, he tricked one woman. Yes.

[David Sims]

So then Emmett Walsh says that when he got the script, he was like, oh, is this my chance to do a Sydney Green street thing? Right? I mean, so he reads the character as like, well, I'm in sort of like middle aged. I'm like, probably going to transition. The latest start. Like, I need to start thinking about who I want to be on screen in my 60s and 70s. Is this a chance to sort of do this? And it's the opposite where it's like, can you, like, have a guy who on the outside seems like Buffalo Bob from, like the Howdy Doody show is dressed like the man in the yellow hat, Right. But like, inside he secretly is this kind of like, menacing heavy. And so you have these two guys circling each other who both have this disconnect between how they read to other people and their actual power within their lives. And Hedaya is just, like, so sad. It is such a sustained, like, control energy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It is. My favorite moment in this entire film is just him having to walk past the, like, Lovers Rock lineup of teenagers all laughing at him.

[Jordan Fish]

Incredible.

[David Sims]

With his finger in, like, the little sling. Yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

And they notice it and they bully him.

[David Sims]

Right. And you're just like. There's so much in the inherent dynamics of, like, why is M.M. walsh asking this guy who's about to hire him to do a hit to meet him at, like, the teen makeout point? And Emmett Walsh, with his Beatles, somehow is, like, able to at least get these kids to humor him. This woman's like, this young girl's talking to him for 30 seconds. And, like, the second Dan Hadeya enters the space, everyone's like, what's your. Shut the fuck up. Fuck you.

[Griffin Newman]

He's a bit off putting. As much as I love Dan Hedaya, the actor, if I met this character, I might not want to hang out with him.

[David Sims]

But it's. It's the, like. It's the. The anger and the sadness and the fact that he's not able to even, like, cover it up with bluster. He is uncomfortable because you're just like, jesus Christ, this guy's an open wound and it's all ugly.

[Griffin Newman]

We haven't mentioned John Getz yet. What do we think of John Getz? I know, but we haven't really. This is one of his earliest performances, obviously, and he does not go on to fame in the same way as everyone else, but he's a pretty reliable working actor. We talked about One Social Network even, where it's like, he's become a pretty reliable older. You know, he's always great.

[David Sims]

Yeah. But it is funny because he's right. He is ostensibly the lead of this movie, and yet it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, sort of. Although it sort of is a cipher.

[Jordan Fish]

I think his highest points are like, post burying Marty the morning, that look on his face like, oh, my God, I've just buried someone alive. I think he's very, very good at conveying that feeling. But I feel like if you look at Brolin in no country for All Men, you just see, like, okay, what is this like. Like, masculine guy, but, like, with, you know, some charisma. You know, with some, like, Burt Reynolds charisma added to it.

[David Sims]

They are obviously, you know, they have the benefit of starting with Cormac McCarthy book on no country but you. It. It's why I kept thinking about that movie while watching this one is like, by that point, 20 years later, they know how to make the guy at the center interesting, even when it is this kind of blank slate tack turn. Like, right. Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

Because I didn't notice until the rewatch for this that that first scene is them telling each other that they have an attraction. Like, that's the beginning of their relationship is the first scene. That's the first time they hook up when he takes a photograph of them. And I don't feel like you feel that through the. Like, the way they're behaving towards each other.

[Ray Tantori]

And it's important for the setup of the movie to know that they are. Are tentative around each other.

[David Sims]

So it's like he just inherently doesn't have leading man energy. And I don't see say that in a negative way. There are movies I think of, like, one from the heart where, like, casting Frederick Forest is, like, a disaster because you're like, he needs to be in the Harry Dean Stanton role. And this guy trying to play leading man is, like, throwing the entire movie off its axis. And, like, Getz is not like that at all. It feels probably like they wanted that out of him. Where it's like part of the intrigue for them is placing just some guy in the middle of a movie like this who is not carrying himself like a noir leading man. That part of it is that this is the one guy who, like, halfway through is like, what the fuck have I gotten myself into? I don't want to be in this film. But they also said, like, a big thing about this movie that makes it such a miracle. And the way you were saying, David, of like, where the did this guy these guys come from? How is this not their 15th film? Is that they basically establish their key crew all from film one, Right. Like, they have Skip Leave, say, and they have Sonnenfeld, and they have Carter Burwell, and they have Francis McDormand score.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, perfect Carter Burwell. Minimalist theme like that you can't shake.

[Ray Tantori]

So melodic.

[David Sims]

Yes. They find so much of the team, like, right there from the beginning. And Skip Leaf, say, who's their, like, incredible sound artist and works on every one of their films and who has a pretty cool name, let's just say phenomenal names. He is maybe the most established of everyone they're working with.

[Jordan Fish]

He brings in Carter Burwell, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

He knows Carter Burwell just as, like, a music friend.

[Jordan Fish]

Is this just one of music half animation, Right?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it like everyone's coming aboard, and the more people that get at it are kind of like, oh, these guys seem to know what they're doing. Hey, come aboard, Ray. No.

[David Sims]

Everyone's, like, surprised it turns out as well.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Okay. Everyone is kind of like, all right, maybe this is just a dumb lark that, you know, we're doing.

[David Sims]

Because Leaf says, like, working on Big Movies in lower positions. But he, like, actually has some stature as a sound guy, if not being the lead. Like.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

He.

[Griffin Newman]

He's got a resume, right.

[David Sims]

He had a little more of a. Like, I thought the script was interesting. It's worth taking a chance on these guys. I think the Carter Burwell thing is, like, this guy's smart. Maybe I can, like, throw him a bone. I think they might get along well.

[Jordan Fish]

Carter Burwell was doing animation, and he was in this band called Thick Pigeon. I went and listened to the Thick Pigeon Chat Thick Pigeon album that he recorded. In the middle of doing this score, Thick Pigeon, like, with, like, guys from New Order and just really, like an experimental. He said he just wrote all of the melodies off of watching 20 minutes of the film. And basically they tried to hire, I think, three other people first, and then they came back to him.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah, I mean, he showed up with that melody I can't imagine. You know. Like, it's interesting, though, because the music he made is like. Like, what I listened to was a lot more, like, monotonous and intentionally atonal than his film scoring work, which is really very appealing. Like, so melodic.

[David Sims]

They did this sort of, like, Bake off audition thing, right? They asked him to come in with some stuff. He came in with, like, 10 different pieces. The melodic piano thing was one of them. But there was more electronic stuff and more conventional thriller score stuff. And they were like, we like that. Can we work on that more? And he gave them a bunch of stuff. He was just like, there wasn't a traditional spotting section. I was like, watching a cut and they were sort of like, I guess that's 60 seconds we need there. I gave him a bunch of stuff and they re edited and placed the music in different places than I had intended. And he was like, I was angry at them. I was too inexperienced to actually get upset about it. But if that had happened to me on a studio film, I probably would have made a bigger stink in a way that would have killed my entire career. Versus, like, trusting them long enough to see that it ultimately worked out in everyone's favor. But it feels like everyone's relationship to them was like that. And Mehmet Walsh was like, I don't know what these fucking guys are doing. But the thing Skip Leavesay said was, like, reading the script. It was so sparse. It was, like, so tight. There is, like, no emotion in it whatsoever in the way the characters are written. And he's like, any sort of emotional nuance in that film is what the actors brought to it. Like, there was kind of nothing on paper for Fran's character, and she came in and filled all this stuff, and it feels like it teaches them this lesson of, like, a, we gotta give actors room to work and, like, fill in those gaps.

[Griffin Newman]

That strikes me as a thing that so much, so many young directors have to figure out how to actually work with actors.

[David Sims]

And then so they're seeing, like, oh, my God, she's finding stuff where we didn't give it to her. And then they said about John Getz, they were like, we watched the movie now, and they're like, wow, we were doing him no favors. We gave him nothing to play. The character is basically just an audience surrogate in a thriller, which means he needs to be behind the eight ball. He has no idea what's going on. The whole movie is watching him walk into rooms silently and trying to figure stuff out. And they were like, we think he's really good. And as time goes on, we're more and more grateful for the favor he gave us of, like, doing that well in a way that informed us that we need to actually give actors more playable things from now Huron out.

[Ray Tantori]

He also has a really big challenge in the last third of the movie because they set up this idea that Muri says to Abby, stay away from Rey. He's gone crazy. And so it's a challenge for the actor because he's got to seem completely bewildered, trying to reach out to her, trying to protect her from whatever sort of unclear threat there is. But also, he has to play it in a way where he's giving her the, like, crazy hooks to grab onto, where she can misread one of his signals and be like, oh, actually, he might be the person who wants to kill me. So, like, that's tough.

[David Sims]

That's. That's.

[Ray Tantori]

I would imagine that that's really hard.

[David Sims]

And I think what he does very smartly is, rather than playing, like, a movie version of crazy, he is playing the sort of slow burn shock of having killed a guy and watching a guy die, right? Like, there's some sort of, like, delayed trauma bomb happening within him that is just making him seem a little unhinged.

[Jordan Fish]

And the big thing he's playing is, you know, Marty early on goes, like, at a certain point, she's gonna say to you, like, I'm not doing anything funny. And it's like, when she says that to him, that's the moment that he stops trusting her. They lose faith in each other, basically.

[David Sims]

I mean, our beloved producer Ben Hosley always talks about who's not on mic as much in this episode.

[Griffin Newman]

We don't have enough microphone.

[David Sims]

Adjust the microphone over to Jordan. But Ben, you love to talk about the the Bag Full of Money movie. That makes you think, if I were in this, I do everything right and I'd end up owning an island. Right, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

So you hire an assassin in this movie. Like I would hire a good assassin who would do his job and then we would shake hands and part ways. I mean, I wouldn't hire this guy. You don't want to hire me? I can't do it either. You don't want to hire like as soon as I saw like four flies on his face, I'd be like, no, thank you.

[David Sims]

The movies that I feel like you often point to, often point to and say, I would know how to do this better are the things like A Simple Plan, where like a very kind of like all American button down milquetoast guy starts, like his morals slip away. He starts losing perspective and judgment, getting caught up in his own, like, how do I maintain this? How do I hold on to this? Now you're killing more people and all this sort of shit, right? And you're like, I would just be normal, cool as a cucumber. John gets in. This feels like the opposite. Where you're like so used to the movies like this, making people get into this like Walter White esque slipping into a like, morass of evil to, to hold on to what they have. And instead this guy, the more things get bad around him, the more he's just like, oh, fuck, I hate this. I hate being here. Right? Like, he's fucked up too deeply to, to ever fix it, but he's not doubling down on it and making it worse in a certain way. Obviously he kills Dana Daya, right? But like the last 20 minutes he's just sort of like, I don't know what the to do anymore.

[Griffin Newman]

Why does Visser do what he did? Do what he do?

[David Sims]

Because Dan Hade insulted him.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, because Dan today is just a pain in the ass.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Because I mean, like, it's just a lot of trouble in the 80s to be Photoshopping is all I'm saying.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he has to do that by.

[Griffin Newman]

Hand, manual Photoshop, like draw little blood stains on people. He might have even used his own blood. That's. Yeah, maybe he did. Because like, this is a movie where nobody's like, hey, this is why I'm doing this, by the way. Not that I need anyone to do that. I don't want that you know, I don't want some monologue, villainous monologue or whatever.

[David Sims]

And the first time I saw it, I remember being confused when gets shows up again where I was like, I thought they were dead. Right where I fell for his thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben, before you hand the mic back, I forgot to ask you. You're your coen brothers thing. Yeah, yeah, we're your first coen brothers guys, they are filmmakers. My dad really loved.

[David Sims]

That checks out. Yeah, yeah. Like Fargo was a favorite of his. This look, all of us being like 80s 90s kids. It checks out that we all have the same story, which is. My parents told me these guys were important. Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

The Cohen's were one of those filmmakers.

[Ray Tantori]

That they did talk about because also.

[David Sims]

They'Re like quote unquote, serious movies that are entertaining and funny. Like as much as they were seen as like, these guys are high artists and this is like highfalutin shit. On the other hand, it's like, it's silly and it's exciting.

[Griffin Newman]

The McDonald's snack wrap is back. You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap. Spicy snack wrap. You broke the Internet for a snack? Snack wrap is back.

[David Sims]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything.

[Jordan Fish]

Going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down.

[David Sims]

So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a.

[Griffin Newman]

Thing Mint Mobile Unlimited premium wireless.

[Ray Tantori]

Everybody get 30, 30.

[Griffin Newman]

Better get 30, better get 20, 20, 20.

[David Sims]

Better get 20, 20. Everybody get 15, 15, 15, 15. Just 15 bucks a month. Sold. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of 45 dollars for 3 month plan equivalent to 15 dollars per month required new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy. Taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com here's the basic plot overview of this movie. Because it's not like it's told out of order. It's not like a memento style obfuscation, but they just withhold certain information from you at certain times. As much as it is like following into the basic thriller playbook of like, the audience needs to be a step ahead of the character. So the tension comes from us knowing the thing that they don't know and being worried about how it's going to go down, this movie does withhold key bits of information from the audience as well. So it takes a while to figure out even what has gone wrong. But John Getz is having an affair with Frances McDormand, who is married to Dan Hedaya. Who is a pathetic man who owns a bar. She wants to leave him for her. He has hired a private eye who has found photos of them sleeping together in a fit of rage. I think spurred on even more by the fact that he cannot fuck anyone else, that he's the man. Let's say the man is riseless. There is an astonishing lack of riz in this guy. Decides to put a hit out on the two of them to get his ultimate revenge. He makes this mistake of sort of lightly mocking M.M. walsh who tries to present himself as almost like the Andy Griffith show version of a private eye assassin. Right? Like his. He's couching everything in this sort of like folksy cuteness. So when Hedaya takes a swipe at him, you assume is this guy so kind of oblivious and good natured that it's just bouncing right off of him Instead of. He breaks into their home, takes a photo of them sleeping and manually basically hand tilts tints it.

[Ray Tantori]

He Photoshops it in the Photoshop literal original meaning of the herbs to make.

[David Sims]

It look like he has murdered them in bed. That there are bloodshots on the sheets which then his plan is to then just rob Hadeyah, take all his money which he knows the location of when he goes to get paid.

[Ray Tantori]

He also steals Abby's gun, which is basically a frame.

[David Sims]

He's.

[Ray Tantori]

He's doing that to frame her and.

[Griffin Newman]

That'Ll tie it all up. Essentially it's like this was a lover's quarrel. That's what happened here.

[David Sims]

But when you're asking why he does it, it's like the ego is bruised. He has the line later where he repeats the thing that Hedaya said to him about like looking dumb or something like that.

[Ray Tantori]

He says now it looks stupid. Which I. I've watched the movie a few times. I don't think that Hedaya ever calls him dumb.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no.

[Jordan Fish]

Visser is the one who says you look like an idiot or I think you're an idiot. My read on it is he just thinks that Marty is not trustworthy, that this is not a good guy to keep a secret with. And so it's actually cleaner to take the money from him, frame the lovers and leave. And then it's a totally tied up.

[Ray Tantori]

But also and they have no idea who he is.

[David Sims]

Like. Whereas in that car scene isn't like flat out insulting him, but he is doing snarky under his breath Triton and he's giving him an attitude that is clearly I think you're dumb. And I'M smart.

[Jordan Fish]

He's treating him like shit. I mean, he, like he. When he gives him the money, he pushes across the table with his boot.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

You know, and he is like, don't come for me.

[David Sims]

But it's also, it's the no country, it's the Fargo thing. It's the like, all this for a little money that they're obsessed with. Which is like the promise of such a small amount of money can make people lose their fucking minds. Where you're just like, this is absolutely not worth it.

[Ray Tantori]

The other thing too is I'm not exact. I don't think this is the point where, where Visser fully decides to do it, but it might be the moment that makes him cross the threshold is when he DEA says, I put a call in. And the less you need to know about it, the better. And at that point, if I'm putting myself in the detective's mind, I'm thinking, oh, he, he's involved with the mobile. He got funding from somebody who now understands the workings of this situation. Which is, which is funny too, because what he actually did is he put in a call to Murray is being like, you stole the money from the safe.

[David Sims]

Right? It's. Yeah, it's one of those things where watching it the first time you think, is there a bigger conspiracy going on here that's slowly going to get unfurled? And instead you realize this guy just made too big of a play. Right. Was just sort of like, I don't trust this dude. And I guess I could make five times as much money if I just kill him. And I think my plan is foolproof and no one will see through it.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't hire a hitman.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Because like, you know, they kill people.

[David Sims]

They do.

[Griffin Newman]

So they could kill you.

[David Sims]

This is interesting. Take David, you know what I mean?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, they're already comfortable killing people for no particular reason.

[Jordan Fish]

This is very similar to the beat in no country 2 where they go out to visit the scene of the firefighter and Chigurh just shoots those two guys that have hired him. And you're like, why, why is this movie about this hitman suddenly about a hitman who's going total chaos mode?

[Ray Tantori]

And I always forget that he kills those two guys. Although the interesting thing about Visser is he doesn't really come off as that psychopathic. Like when you realize that they. That he didn't actually kill them and he. And he did these fake frame job photos, it sort of feels like, oh, this is a guy who will choose the sort of more Weaselly fake out path, as opposed to like actually just pick up a gun and shoot somebody. But then he immediately picks up a gun and shoots Marty, right?

[David Sims]

And the other big mistake he makes is thinking that he's dead, right? Which is another thing the Cohen said was like a big animating idea for them in this movie. And I think it comes a lot out of Joel editing horror films, watching what Raimi's doing, seeing that like grow as its own sort of cottage industry of the 80s horror films and whatever in the, in the early part of the decade was. He was like, all these movies present at like, killing people is like one move and it's done. And obviously sometimes you shoot someone point blank in the head and they like fall down and it's over. But even some of the, like, trailers and marketing materials for this movie use the tagline of like, death takes a lot longer than you'd think. Or something like that. That that was their big set piece idea was like, can you have a guy who thinks that he's closed off the loose end and killed a guy? But in reality it's 15 minutes of the movie that are going to have to silently play out with like, fuck, this is taking longer than I thought.

[Ray Tantori]

I think there's some versions of this movie that have an opening title card that talks about like a quote from like Hemingway or something about like how hard it is to kill somebody.

[David Sims]

Actually.

[Griffin Newman]

Easy. Shoot him right in the head. Bang.

[David Sims]

Which I'm sure you guys know this, but the opening Walsh narration, which I butchered, was not in the script. They had him having the final line at the end of the movie. They put it together and they were like, feels like it kind of needs something at the beginning. And he was like, we just wrote that. We just came up with something. We brought him in to do. ADR handed him two pages of paper. He read it cold one time. And I think part of it was that, like, they don't tend to make movies with conventional narrative structures where you're following one character the entire time. They are so into ensembles and they're so into sort of the arc of the movie is the incident rather than you following one character through incidents. It's like, how does this incident progress and affect everyone around it? And Carter Burwell, when he lands on this piano melody, they go, oh, fuck. All these scenes of characters in silence. And we have this movie that already has these open spaces and people looking and listening and considering if we're playing the same theme across all these characters. It does start to Bring them together. It unifies them in a mood and a feeling. And I think they have the same thought of if we put emend. McWash saying something at the beginning, what it is, is almost irrelevant. It starts to bookend it and frame it a little bit more as this guy's worldview. Roger Eber, when this film came out, not to put Hasley on blast again, but this is, I think, what is the most potent idea in this movie. He said. A lot has been written about the visual style of Blood simple, but I think the appeal of this movie is more elementary. It keys into three common nightmares. One, you clean and clean, but there's still blood all over the place.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? A Shakespearean nightmare.

[David Sims]

Weir Two, you know, you have committed a murder, but you're still not sure quite how or why.

[Griffin Newman]

That is really true.

[Ray Tantori]

That's great, right?

[Griffin Newman]

That you're like, I think he's dead, and I think someone did it, but I don't know where body is or what happened.

[Ray Tantori]

Classic Ebird observation.

[David Sims]

And three, you know, you have forgotten a small detail that will eventually get you into a lot of trouble.

[Griffin Newman]

You're. You're obsessively overthinking, like, but did this, you know?

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah, the lighter. Yeah. I mean, the Visser leaving his lighters.

[David Sims]

Like, now, Ebert saying those are the three common universal nightmares seems to imply that we all think about killing people all the time.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, God.

[David Sims]

But what I actually think he's saying in a Husley way is that we all watch movies like this and start to think, could we pull it off?

[Griffin Newman]

And it's just about deceit, right? Even if it's not murder. Right? Where could I weave a web of lies? Could I get. I get away with something?

[David Sims]

Can I. Can I end up with an island?

[Griffin Newman]

And what would happen and how would I do it and where would it.

[David Sims]

Start to go wrong? The postmodern riff of this movie is like, okay, this is how it actually would go down. Everything would just kind of be sloppy and meaningless because, like, in a Coen.

[Griffin Newman]

Brothers movie like Blood simple, you should. You could watch this and be like, well, all of these characters are essentially kind of worthless. It's not like these are lovable characters, so what do I care what happens to them? Let them all, you know, shoot each other. And instead you're like. With them. You're not exactly rooting for characters always, but, like, you're kind of just like, you're in that experience that you're talking about of like, huh, what would I do? And, huh, like, what would happen Next if I, you know, whatever.

[David Sims]

Like, it's a movie designed knowing that audiences watch these types of movies that way. And when they're skipping over information, it's taking advantage of the fact where it's like placing you in his headspace of, I don't know why I just killed a guy. You know, you have Getz walk into the office, see Hedaya there, step on a gun, think mistakenly that he's the one who just shot him, when in fact he's been lying there bleeding out in a chair. And it's just like everything spirals off of that.

[Ray Tantori]

I think just one thing that I would just want to say about all the performances in the movie is that I think something that's generous about the movie and possibly related to the fact that it was their first movie where they wanted to give kind of juicy roles to everybody is I really do think that there's moments in this movie where every. Every character feels like they're the main character. Like, more. More so than I think any of the Cohen's other movies.

[David Sims]

Although I do think that is kind of a thing that carries through her for most of their career.

[Griffin Newman]

Fargo kind of has three leads and, you know, sort of three support. Like. Right. Like, it's like you could argue, well, McDormand's the lead.

[David Sims]

Yeah, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

But she's not in a lot of the movie and she kind of show.

[David Sims]

You could argue the same with Macy.

[Griffin Newman]

Vanishes from the movie.

[Jordan Fish]

It's the braid. They love the braid.

[Ray Tantori]

You can also argue three lines.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, well, actually, Buscemi is the lead. Like, Buscemi is actually maybe in more of the movie than you think he is or whatever, you know. Yeah, exactly.

[Ray Tantori]

I would just say, though, that, like, Marty coming back for an extremely extended dream sequence where he has this strange, almost touching heart to heart, like, menacing slash, touching hard heart. Like that feels like a little bit like, are you. Like, why are you bringing this character back? You know, it's like the shot of.

[Griffin Newman]

The blood, like, out of a bucket, like, hitting the floor is so good.

[Ray Tantori]

It's hitting every part. It is, actually. Yeah, you're right about that, though. Like, it's giving one extra crazy horror thriller moment that the movie maybe needed.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it's a good pop for the movie, energy wise. And it's a good reminder of the thing you're talking about, the sort of the guilty frenzy it builds up. Yes, yes, yes, Griffin.

[David Sims]

No, I just, I. Yeah, I saw that Ebert review and it hit me very hard where I'm like, I do Think that is he's fucking good boiling.

[Griffin Newman]

Something down like that.

[David Sims]

But also the. The admitting. We all think about this, right? Like part of the buy in of this movie isn't that we all sit around plotting murder, but we all, like Ben, read a noir novel or watch a movie or whatever and think about how you would handle it. And this is like a movie in which the people inside of it are trying to act like people in a movie and they can't get it right. They're sort of like, I know my role in this story and I just have to do this and it will all work out.

[Jordan Fish]

There's also just a doomed. It's like once you have the affair, it's like once you start a relationship where you threw someone else under the bus at the beginning of the relationship, like they're never gonna trust each other. And that's the thing. Like when he comes to see Marty, he's like, one day she's gonna say, I'm not doing anything funny. And then when she has the dream, you know, they're saying, I love you. And he's like, you know, you're just saying it because you're scared. And that's what Rhae says to her at the end. It's just their relationship is haunted in a kind of final destination way. From the beginning, they, like they did. They touched the monkey paw.

[Ray Tantori]

Hidea is totally in their heads. He's gotten into both of their heads.

[David Sims]

He's in my head too, and my heart. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

So what else do we discover before the iconic famous ending of this film? Film, which I feel like is the most famous part of the movie.

[Jordan Fish]

I think the two most famous parts of the tour de force performances that there's the 20 minute burial scene.

[Griffin Newman]

The burial scene ending.

[Jordan Fish]

I feel like those are the standout.

[David Sims]

There's no dialogue other than the radio.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

There's like 15 continuous minutes that play out without any of the primary characters speaking. Yeah, that is just kind of process.

[Griffin Newman]

And that's what. When you watch this movie, you're like, yes, this is a Coen brothers movie. It's about people on the edge and sort of idiot criminality spiraling out of control. But at the same time, we're like, it barely has any dialogue. Like, it doesn't have that kind of the flourishes we associate with them later in their career.

[David Sims]

It basically only has five characters. The only guy we haven't mentioned is Sam. Art Williams, who plays Maurice and I think is incredibly good in this.

[Griffin Newman]

He's great and is kind of the.

[David Sims]

One neutral party in this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I was gonna say, you keep wondering whether he's gonna break in a direction he kind of doesn't.

[Jordan Fish]

Almost every scene of his in the script is cut in half. And the movie ends with an action sequence where he fights Julian. He fights the dog.

[David Sims]

That's how it's written. Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

He fights the dog in the room with the beige billiard table. And he fights it with a. With a cue.

[David Sims]

That's fascinating because it feels like in the final product, his function is to remind you, like, these people are all caught up in some shit that is kind of in their heads. Right. Is like a weird combination of, like, anger and, like, lust and jealousy and paranoia that's animating all of them. And he's just like a guy clocking in and clocking out and doing his job. Yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

He's like.

[David Sims]

He's.

[Ray Tantori]

He's the uninvolved.

[David Sims]

These characters exist in a real world. Like, this world is not inherently evil. They're making decisions.

[Griffin Newman]

This movie is not funny. Now, I'm not saying it doesn't have funny moments. And there is that dark, dark, black humor of the Cohen's, like, there. But, like, again, you don't watch this movie and see Raising Arizona coming.

[David Sims]

No. It's a wild swing.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And you don't see. But, like, Fargo is an interesting contrast to this movie in that it is so funny. It has a luminously heroic character in the middle of it versus pure good. Right, Right. And, like, nonetheless has so much, you know, what Common DNA. It's just, like, the arc of their career is interesting to think about. And it is interesting to think of them watching this movie and being like, oh, boy. Like, you know, because it's like, Stanley Kubrick made Fear and Desire. And you're like, nice try, Stanley. Like, maybe take another cut, you know? Right. Whereas the Coen brothers are treating this like their fear and desire where they're like, this is so amateurish. Like, that's crazy. Please, Jordan.

[Ray Tantori]

Well, the only thing I would add is that, like, the Cohens have different modes that they're in and you see it throughout their career. So, like, there's definitely movies like Fargo where dialogue and. And character interactions and funny voices is, like, a big part of the meal that they're serving up. But then if you watch no country, which is probably, in the long run, the movie they're gonna be most remembered for. It's a great question. I think about it a lot. Very little dialogue. Obviously, there are memorable dialogue scenes, but huge stretches of that movie is Just like a guy putting gear together in order to trick somebody else or do cat and mouse stuff in a hotel room.

[Jordan Fish]

Yeah. And the script, I mean, to the White Sea is nothing but that opening stuff from no country or the 20 minute silent sequences where you're just watching almost like dialogue scenes that are happening silently between objects and a person's face. Watching them build one version of a.

[David Sims]

Thing, which I think they are better at than any other filmmakers alive.

[Jordan Fish]

Yeah. And you can read it in the script. It's like that whole scene where he's cleaning up the murder scene, it's all like, he tries the windbreaker and it says, this isn't going to work. And then it's like he adds the towel. It's like, this is going to work. It's all like, step forward, step backwards. It's very trackable.

[David Sims]

Silent conversations with objects is a great way of putting it. Where I'm like, no country is one of the best shot, reverse shot between human face and inanimate thing. Thing movies I have ever seen where you understand exactly what they're thinking and what they're looking to do. But I remember Wes Anderson always talks about on Bottle Rocket how he would lose certain arguments. Not even arguments, but producer, line producer, first aid, whoever comes along, go like, Wes, we're running behind schedule. We have to move on or we don't have time to prep this. We just need to shoot this rather than holding up and waiting for the wall to be finished, you know, painted the right color or whatever it is. And he's like, I watched that movie and it drives me crazy and it causes me physical pain that I. All I see are the things that I like conceded at the final moment as good enough. And he's like, it makes me so physically viscerally uncomfortable that I made this commitment to myself from that movie of just like, I am never letting something film until it's ready ever again. Like, I do not want to have a single second in any of my movies that irritates me in this way where I feel like I didn't get what I wanted. Versus owning the mistakes of misjudgment, but executing it in the way you had it in your head. And I think Blood simple is like a little similar for them where they just look at it and they were like, from this moment on, we were just never going to let anyone make us move on.

[Ray Tantori]

But on the other hand, like something that they talk about in their sort of like, let's say contemporary or like they're. When they're when they hit their stride is that part of the process is as much as the movie is storyboarded to all hell. And, like, you know, every single moment is storyboarded. That's now what the actors are looking at. So when the actors get to set, they block the scenes. And, like, the way Deakins describe it is. Describes it is. And yet somehow the blocking ends up being exactly like the storyboards.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ray Tantori]

But I will say maybe that's something they learned from this, where they're like, possibly the performances feel too chopped up or it's. Or it's like it's. It's not giving the actors room to room to breathe.

[David Sims]

I don't know if you guys found this, but that the storyboard artists they hired kept drawing the Frances McDormand character naked. So she kept asking to see the storyboards, and they were like, we just really go off of whatever you want because they were so embarrassed. Obviously, they start dating, like, right after this. But the last shot of this movie with Em at Walsh's POV of the dripping of the faucet, Right. You notice if you watch it closely that they have to replay the shot backwards.

[Jordan Fish]

Joel refers to it as rock and rolling that frame. He said we had to rock and roll that frame.

[David Sims]

They just didn't get a long enough, like, shot of it.

[Jordan Fish]

They basically just make the drip go, like, to the left and then to the right and to left to right, and then it drops. And they do the same thing when. When he shoots Hidea, actually. They. They do an optical to make him just like, totally freeze for a second longer.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. But there's stuff like that where I wonder if that came out of necessity.

[Jordan Fish]

Oh, yeah.

[David Sims]

We don't have the piece we need in the edit, so how do we, like, fudge it to make it work?

[Ray Tantori]

It's hard to direct a drip total.

[David Sims]

But that probably drives them insane now versus today. They would just be like, we spent three months figuring out how to film the drip before we got to set.

[Ray Tantori]

There's lots of stuff like that in Barton Fink with drains and drips.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. I mean, in the famous drain shot that Robert Deakins makes fun of them for, which we talk about on that episode.

[Jordan Fish]

Oh, as this series goes on, you gotta check out the Deakins website. Every single film he publishes, his lighting plans, and you can really, really understand what he's doing. I know this is not a Deakins film, but as the show goes on, you gotta get into the, you know, just the department heads, Jane Muskie, Dennis Gassner, Jessica on Shore. Just like the transition from their production designers, their DPs. It's so trackable with their movies because they'll go through phases with like a production designer or they'll go through phases with a dp. But yeah, get so excited for the Deacon stuff.

[David Sims]

It is crazy that they only made three films with Sonnenfeld because it feels so impactful that these three guys all started together and then Sonnenfeld obviously figures out how to take the style he develops with them and puts it onto the biggest studio comedies imaginable. And then they sort of transmute it into something new with Deakins and the other DPs they work with later.

[Griffin Newman]

But like, Sonnenfeld is such a designer. But I don't feel like his style with the Cones is ever quite as immaculate in the blockbuster. I mean, I guess he's still. He's got a lot of the rushing, you know, camera stuff, but also the.

[David Sims]

Like the big wide angle lens.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And really good sense.

[Ray Tantori]

He had a lot more money to throw around too, for most of his movies too.

[Griffin Newman]

Was there a lot of money in Men in Black? Was that Wild Wild West? That was an indie, right?

[David Sims]

That.

[Griffin Newman]

That one they made.

[David Sims]

The notorious thing about Sonnenfeld is on his studio movies, his direction is always slower, flatter.

[Griffin Newman]

Are you serious?

[David Sims]

Yeah, because it's like this thing that they developed with the Cohens of like, can you develop this visual style where if you have a compelling actor in the middle of the frame, the least they're doing on this wide of a lens will end up amplifying.

[Griffin Newman]

The Addams Family has Raul Julia and Christopher Lloyd in a not slower or flatter competition almost.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what I mean?

[David Sims]

I guess Men in Black is the height of that for him where it's like telling Tommy Lee Jones to do.

[Griffin Newman]

Nothing, which is awesome and works in Tommy Lee Jones is what the hell is happening to me? And then he sees the movie and he's like, oh, I get it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Although Tommy Lee Jones is the Gene Hackman style actor where he's like, yeah, I hated making the movie and thought the guy was an idiot. Then I watched it, I was like, oh, that's pretty good.

[David Sims]

Well, I think they had this. They like developed the style together where no matter how seriously the thing was being played at the center, things feel a little funny and off there is like some innate black humor just to the actual lensing of these movies that then Sonnenfeld carries over onto movies that are more explicitly funny, which then makes it less funny as his career goes on. Like when you watch Nine Lives and it's a Kevin Spacey talking cat movie that's shot like this normal movie right now. You're like, well, we're just in, like, bug nuts world, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. The ending is rocks. And it is funny. It's so, so intense in the theater. I've seen this movie in a theater. Like, you are, like, truly, truly gripping your seat. And then him laughing, being like, oh, he didn't even know who you were shooting.

[David Sims]

Like, right.

[Griffin Newman]

Rocks.

[David Sims]

It's meaningless.

[Ray Tantori]

And also Emmett Walsh cracking up as he's dying. Like, it's just a great character detail. Like, early on, when hedaya Marty says, like, I know what rock to turn over to find you. He loses it. And he says, that's very good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

What rocks to turn over. Good one.

[Jordan Fish]

And then blow out the mic on that. It sounds like he's blowing it.

[Ray Tantori]

He's blowing it a lot. And. And then at the end when she says, I'm not afraid of you, Marty, he, like, he has to get that last line in where he says, oh, what does he say? Like, ma', am, I'll be sure to tell him if I see him.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is great.

[David Sims]

The image of she has pinned his gloved hand with the knife. Right. That has crossed over into her room on the windowsill. All other parts of his body are still outside of her view on the other side. She's, like, aware of this guy here just by his bloody, pinned, writhing hand. And then he's shooting through the wall. And this weird, like, here's a physical reminder of the guy who you're fighting with only through one anonymous appendage. And then the sense of danger that is, like, leaking through on the other side. And this, like, weird, like, cackling laugh. Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

And just as, like, showmanship, it really does end with a sequence that feels like Terminator or Halloween. It has that final girl feeling. And also just the ending is someone who's wounded, who can't see you, who's shooting at you. It's so hard for her to know, should I go to the left or should I go to the right?

[Ray Tantori]

You can shoot in any direction through one of those walls.

[Jordan Fish]

Yeah. And what's so great about the visual is that they put individual lights on each bullet hole, pointing in different directions. So it looks like basically the light is the trail of where the bullet went, which makes no sense based off the. Of how light works, but it's a perfect kind of Looney Tunes. Like, just escalation it's like swords going.

[David Sims]

Into like a magician's trunk.

[Griffin Newman]

And that will carry over to raising Arizona. Like that. That energy does.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Occur. Oh, hey, Ben.

[David Sims]

Ben's leaning in. You're just deep in thought.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben's kind of doing a neighbor in home improvement thing over his welcome right now.

[Jordan Fish]

Wilson.

[Griffin Newman]

I've been on the record. I love dirt.

[David Sims]

This could be a good series for you, by the way. I know a lot of dirty bags of money. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

If you're digging at night, something really fucked up is happening.

[David Sims]

If you're digging in the dark, finest film, 100% two guests. I need to hold back. I pass the mic over to Jordan. I don't need to enter the conversation. And you're just sitting there like, this has to be shared. And is a thought we would never get to in eight hours. But what a profound statement. You were right. Has there ever been a good night dig?

[Griffin Newman]

No. No. I mean, unless.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe you're like really desperate to make a shelter.

[David Sims]

Well, yeah. This is what I'd say. It doesn't have to be nefarious.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

But if you're doing benevolent night digging, your life's in a bad place. Right. Like, there's a reason they literally call it the graveyard shift. Like, the worst kind of working position you can imagine is you are being paid to dig graves at night. And you're like, I, look, I. This is a job. Whatever. I gotta pay the rent. But yet this, this is the least desirable job anyone could possibly have. Right? So you're. You're either trying to get away with a crime, something's gone horribly wrong. Like you're trying to get out of a jam. An existential jam. A threat. Or you, you just. You got bad options.

[Griffin Newman]

Or you're like a woodchuck. I suppose if you're a woodchuck.

[David Sims]

He came up with the one into his own rule.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's. It's pretty.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Pretty limited.

[David Sims]

It's pretty bad. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Have. Have you guys. I.

[David Sims]

We're all.

[Griffin Newman]

I know we're all like, grew up in the city for the most part. Have you ever dug? It's a good question. Why would I have ever been digging? I don't think I've ever really dug.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

Why would I be digging? What would I dig?

[David Sims]

I played dig.

[Griffin Newman]

I know you buried some jeans, Ben. I'm aware that you did that it's come up on this show and I've dug a lot of holes in my life.

[Ray Tantori]

Why?

[Griffin Newman]

Putting in fence posts.

[Ray Tantori]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Never had to put in a fence Post. Never had anywhere to put a fence. Helping my dad garden, planting a shrub. So I've done that. I think of that as. That's. That's pretty. That's Little dig.

[David Sims]

Little.

[Griffin Newman]

You're. You're with a little. The little trowel. But I'm talking big boy. I've maybe helped my grandma with your boot. Yeah. Chop wood.

[Jordan Fish]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Have I done much digging? I don't know, Ray.

[Jordan Fish]

No experience. Shakes his head. No. Jordan.

[Ray Tantori]

Every year, my dad and I and whoever's happens to be around before the Passover Seder.

[David Sims]

Bernie Fisher.

[Ray Tantori]

Yes. We go out to the side of the house and we dig up some horseradish which will then.

[David Sims]

The horseradish for the Passover bitter herb.

[Ray Tantori]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow.

[Ray Tantori]

Like around 4pm okay.

[David Sims]

So right before Sunday, an evening dig, you gotta get out.

[Ray Tantori]

But not a true night dig. I mean, I could imagine though, something messed up happening and having to do the dig at night be.

[David Sims]

It'd be a bad sign. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Anyway, that was just a little dig corner.

[Jordan Fish]

I just.

[David Sims]

I.

[Griffin Newman]

That's all I had.

[David Sims]

Okay. Well, it was invaluable. With a Venmo debit card, you can Venmo more than just your friends. You can use your balance in so many ways. You can Venmo everything. Need gas? You can Venmo this. How about snacks? You can Venmo that. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this. Or their next show. You can Venmo that. Visit Venmo me Debit to learn more.

[Griffin Newman]

You can Venmo this or you can Venmo that. Yeah, you could Venmo this. So you could Venmo.

[David Sims]

The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license by Mastercard International Incorporated card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm going to tell you a little about the release of the film. So. Mm. Walsh, of course, says the film had a huge impact on his career. His price went up like five times. He says, I was the guy everyone wanted. He hears a funny call. At one point, he gets a call from Joel Cohen saying, hey, M. I guess you call him M. They say.

[David Sims]

That, that when they met him, they didn't know how to address him. And they were like, is he M? Is he Emmett or is Michael Emmett Walsh, to be clear.

[Griffin Newman]

But they called him M. Can you blow smoke rings? And he was like, I guess he tried. He made himself sick.

[Jordan Fish]

He wasn't a smoker.

[Griffin Newman]

Tried trying to. He didn't really do It. And they were like, don't worry. We came up with a little machine for it.

[David Sims]

And he tells a different story in the Criterion thing.

[Griffin Newman]

But then when they shoot the scene. Okay, yeah, no, here's the machine didn't work.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And so a little Prof. Girl was like, I grew up with four older brothers in the barn. Give me a cigar. I can do it. And she starts beautiful, like blowing beautiful smoke rings. And then she starts barfing.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Because cigars are pretty disgusting to anyone, but especially a little girl.

[David Sims]

And Walsh throws that out as like, that's the most movies right there. Like a 20 year old puking after getting to big screen. Cigar smoke rings, a crew spotlight.

[Jordan Fish]

They had a overqualified key grip on this movie. Who they said was like a LA guy who had moved to Austin because he was afraid of the big one earthquake happening in LA and he was doing Sheetrock and he was so bored. But basically they were like, we had this small movie, but we had a big A list key grip. So all those flying, like when the camera moves over the drunk guy at.

[David Sims]

The park, I was gonna say all.

[Jordan Fish]

The kind of animated flying camera stuff is just like they have this extra muscle behind them that is out of size with the scale of the movie they're making.

[Griffin Newman]

Boom.

[Ray Tantori]

Your camera up. I'll just say yes, is a big deal.

[David Sims]

I feel like that shot in particular and that camera move of jumping over the drunk is like the moment where I have to imagine people at film festivals, like my parents, but also this fucking year long run of them doing like a global tour of this movie. The moment where every screening people lean forward and go, who the fuck are these guys?

[Jordan Fish]

But also that's the moment where all the pieces have been set on the playing board. And then he's going back to the bar and she's like, don't go back to the bar. And he goes back. So it's like everything is set up. And I almost feel like that moment is being like this mousetrap is perfect and the camera is just moving over it. They don't want to disturb a hair.

[David Sims]

It's just such a funny flourish with so much personality. And yet if you're seeing it at a film festival and you're probably someone who works in film or studies it immensely, the second that shot happens, he goes, fuck. That's complicated. The fact that these guys would take the time to set that up when you. It just kind of feels like something to make themselves laugh immediately tells you a ton about them.

[Griffin Newman]

Film was shot over the Course of eight weeks. Haven't mentioned that in Texas. Now, Joel had spent a little time in Texas because he went to ut, but I think just a little bit of time. But they kind of loved it as a sort of swerve from the urban feel of most moirs.

[Jordan Fish]

I mean, this is a thing they're always saying is like, these are just genre films. We're working in well established genres, but we're just trying to make things off the hump and specific all the time. So they're just like, this is the opposite of Rainy New York. So it's a great place to do a noir.

[Griffin Newman]

Now, Joel is credited on this film as the director, Ethan's credited as the producer, largely due to DGA regulations. We talk about this a little bit on our Barton Fink episode, which is with someone who has run into these DGA regulations. They do become an established DGA duo by the time of the Lady Killers. JJ points out that the Farrelly brothers did this quickly. I do think sometimes you can just do it. And my guess is they just didn't bother to sort of like, make the effort to be like, hey, can we be, you know, Right? They just kind of settled.

[David Sims]

They got rejected at first, and then I was right. We're like, I guess we won't get approved. And their ongoing success probably made it easier for other siblings like the Wachowskis and the Fairlies and whoever to hit the ground running and get approved the first time out.

[Griffin Newman]

They say, Joel. They joke like, oh, Joel's taller. That's why he's director. But they seriously say that the credits don't really reflect the collaboration. And Ethan does plenty of the directorial stuff and Joel does plenty of the production stuff. You know, whatever.

[David Sims]

Like everyone who works with them calls them the two headed director. They're like, it is the most bizarre, symbiotic.

[Jordan Fish]

I'm a two person school of fish. They move simultaneously.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah, I was gonna say it's funny that with driveway dolls, like, as soon as you get into the interviews with Ethan and Trisha Cook, like, they'll just be like, yeah, we co directed it. Like, just funny that they're like recapitulating that exact thing, like having the credit be a little bit wrong.

[David Sims]

So here's another thing we'll get into in the Barton Fink episode. Not to tip the hand too much, but it sounds like if you successfully get the DGA to approve the idea that you are a true team, that's not a thing that can be untangled and re tangled. Yes, you're not like, you can't make a new team now.

[Griffin Newman]

So Barry did throw up a lot. I think you referenced that briefly, Ray, because you've been throwing up a lot. Not to call you out. Similarly, out of nerves.

[Jordan Fish]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, Barry was very nervous. But obviously the film does turn out to be pretty good. They were very inspired visually by the Conformist and the American Friend. Right. Which is a great movie.

[Ray Tantori]

That movie is so well shot.

[Jordan Fish]

They also said they had a laserdisc on location, a laserdisc player, and they had just seen Road Warrior. So they're watching Road Warrior.

[David Sims]

They talk about Road Warrior a lot as one of their, like, evergreen biggest inspirations of just like, this is just pure filmmaking, right?

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah. I don't know if George Miller broke through for, like, the American Public, like, as a name at that point, but you just see this time again, like with James Cameron or any, any action director at that time, just being like, I want to do what George Miller's doing. Like, it's just like, you truly was your favorite director's favorite director at that moment.

[David Sims]

Moment.

[Griffin Newman]

They have this film. No one wants to release it. Every studio is happy to watch it because there really aren't a lot of, like, independent 35 millimeter films. Like, you know what I mean? Like, this is still an unusual American product. There's not much of an indie scene. Everyone sees it and is basically, how would I sell this? Like, this is like an art film.

[David Sims]

About murderers and it has no stars. Right, right. It's like pitch black.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Yes. And at one point they meet with the Crown International Pictures, Mark Tenser. And he liked it, but he had no money. And he said, don't worry about my screwing you. I don't have time to screw you. And Sam Raimi, they went to Sam Raimi and they were like, should we do this? And he said, yeah, in six months he's going to come back to you and say, hey, I found the time.

[David Sims]

An incredibly good line.

[Griffin Newman]

Good, good, good line by old Raimi. But probably a good call.

[Ray Tantori]

I mean, I don't know. But interesting, interesting little, like possible that.

[Griffin Newman]

Could have been how it went. Instead it goes into Tiff and Circle Films, which direct distributes their first three.

[David Sims]

Movies, which had started out as like a bunch of different theater owners.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben Barinholtz.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is into it. And so they said it was the. He said it was the debut film that impressed him most since Eraserhead. Speaking of people, we recently covered. And then it went to New York, which was a really, really big deal back in the day. Not that the New York Film Festival isn't a big deal now, but I feel like it used to have a more primo place on the festival calendar, whereas now New York is more like. Yeah, you know, stuff's already been at Venice until you ride and it's like getting here.

[David Sims]

Well, that's the thing that's really changed is the, like, the Internet has flattened this.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Festival's wanting premieres and exclusives. The idea of a movie like this playing at festivals for over a year and each festival not being possessive of like. Well, that's damaged goods because this other place got to it first. That. Right. It was like prominence in terms of like the headiness of the. The jury or the selection committee or whatever versus like this film is either good or bad based on what festival it's premiering at, relative to which is the best launching pad for an Oscar campaign.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right. Like now New York Film Festival has become like, these are movies that already are pre approved, basically, by and large.

[Griffin Newman]

After the New York Film Festival premiere, Janet Maslin of the New York Times, one of its film critics, gives it a good review. That back in the day is just huge. Obviously that's important now, but back in the day, very important goes to Sundance. Early Sundance nonetheless won the grand jury prize there, which only helps its buzz. Pauline Kale took a big on it, as she did to any movie released post 1980. Essential. But Roger Ebert was a huge fan and it made movie made money, like decent money. I think it made about $2 million, which is obviously a big return on investment for the investors. And everyone basically likes it except for Joel, who says it's pretty damn bad. And Sonnenfeld agrees. The pacing, too slow. I could have shot it better. These days we do it for 10 times the price and it would be 8% better. That's kind of a funny line from Sonnenfeld. He knows. He's actually a little. Being a little silly criticizing it like, he's not. It's not like Sonnenfeld's like, oh, yeah, the guy who made RV would have a better take on this.

[Ray Tantori]

And they don't. They don't hate it. They don't. It's not like there's a lot of directors.

[Griffin Newman]

They have affection.

[David Sims]

They're sort of like, oh, it's like cute. We didn't know what we were doing. Yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

Could I. Could I just real quick, like, the Pauline Kael pan is interesting just because her main take, without the benefit of, of, you know, being able to read the future, is it seems like these guys are just trying to make this movie as a calling card to make studio films.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. She's like, this is too derivative. Like, it's like, I can see all of the influence.

[Ray Tantori]

And I just think it's interesting in terms of thinking forward of, like, what where the Cohens are going to go. Because as much as they are making films that are extremely to their own standards, they also do make movies that are commercially minded and, like, audience minded.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. They don't. It's a great way to think about it. It's like they make challenging movies. But even Barton Fink, which I think of as maybe their most challenging movie of pretty much that they ever made, in a way, like their artiest movie. And I am also thinking of it because we already did this episode is incredibly watchable and put, you know, like, has velocity, even though it's about a guy sitting in a fucking room going crazy. And like, I remember watching as a teenager and being like, wow, this is heady. And I watch it now and I still think it's so brilliant. But I was like, damn, this thing moves like thunderbolts. I love it.

[Ray Tantori]

It kind of reminds me of like 90s relistening to 90s albums, where you're like, oh, yeah, this was so stripped back. And now you listen to it now and you're like, wow, that was extremely produced.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Right.

[Jordan Fish]

Like, there's a thing that Carter Burwell talks about, like him and Skip working together on this movie, kind of establishing a thing which is like, we need to let the audience know by what we're doing with the sound that this movie isn't one thing or the other. It's not just this harsh, dark thriller. It's not just a comedy. And I do think they established that in this first movie is like, you're not going to be able to pin down exactly what this is, but you're going to be entertained.

[David Sims]

They get even better at it as their career progresses. And I also think their most beloved movies are the ones that find the perfect balance between those tones. But it is my favorite thing about them that they always, in the most dramatic scenes, will find a way to put in something funny. And the funniest scenes find a way to put in something that's very terrifying and heartbreaking.

[Jordan Fish]

They also talk a lot. Just process wise, they will take things to a point where it gets more locked down and they will walk it.

[David Sims]

Back so that it's interesting.

[Jordan Fish]

In Barton Fink, there was a scene in the script where you, like, there's a point in the movie where it's pretty clear you're going into his fantasy. But then there was a beat, almost like in Brazil, where you go outside of his fantasy and you see what's really happening to Barton. And they were like, that just locks it down too much. That makes it resolved. And if you just leave it more enigmatic, then it's something that stays alive in the audience's head.

[David Sims]

Right. I was trying to find. There was one review they were talking about that they remember hitting really hard that basically described the movie as having all the depth of a resume and.

[Jordan Fish]

The soul of a Bloomingdale's Window, you know?

[David Sims]

Okay. But I was trying to. Whose review that was? I can't know.

[Jordan Fish]

It's just Joel saying, I loved this review.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It wasn't Kale. Kale says Blood simple is no sense of what we normally think of as, quote, reality and has no connections with, quote, experience. And then she says at the end, nobody in the moviemaking team or in the audience is committed to anything. Nothing is being risked except the million and a half. She's doubling the budget. But this is like, this was the strike against them. And then I found Rosenbaum did a piece like, 15 years later, 20 years later, explaining why he still thinks he's right about Blood simple being shitty. And he wrote, remains mired in a smart alecky film school sensibility. Like, this was the whole thing that everyone threw at them when they didn't like them is like, we get it. You guys are clever, you're smart, you've watched movies, you know how to move the camera. You have nothing to say about humanity.

[Jordan Fish]

You don't think there's anything personal about this film, about a marriage falling part that Joel wrote while his marriage was falling apart? Some energy. Like, I think they're sincere filmmakers, but.

[Griffin Newman]

I think this is where their rep that I was referencing is tacit or whatever. It's like, you do have to think a little around their jokiness and their kind of, like, straightforwardness to dig into. Like, yeah, actually. Right. These guys are not just kind of like, I don't know, we just sit down and write the movie. Who cares? Like, I'm like, no, you're motivated by your own feelings and the conversations you like. I don't think they just sit down and they're like, what if a guy's name was Barton Fink? Oh, good idea. When would he have lived? I don't know, the 40s? Okay, let's keep going.

[David Sims]

You know, there's this weird balance to Me of them feeling like incredibly earnest nihilists, if that makes sense. Like, there is a real emotional sincerity to them being fascinated by this question of, like, is this truly all meaningless? And so often their movies are built around that. These characters doing these, like, making these decisions that make zero sense in pursuit of a thing that's maybe gonna ruin their whole fucking life. And I think that got written off as being condescending and just, like, they don't care. This is all them, like, shaking up an ant farm and, like, laughing at stupid characters doing stupid things, which combined with their just, like, technical proficiency in craft is just like, okay, so these guys are just, like, jerking off. They're just, like, torturing characters and showing me that they're good at making movies, which, like, over time, I. I think people calm down. But we. We also been talking about anytime a young filmmaker is, like, very quickly anointed as not just this is a good movie, but this might be a major voice. There is, like, 30% of the community that immediately needs to be, like, false idol. You. I need to take them down. We cannot immediately, like, put them into the firmament.

[Griffin Newman]

Should we play the box office game?

[David Sims]

Sure. Do you guys have anything else you want to say?

[Ray Tantori]

I mean, I just want to say, like, for some reason, the scene that's coming to mind to sort of respond to what you just said is the scene at the end of True Grit where Rooster just carries. Carries Haley Steinfeld for, like, you know, the whole way. And it's, like, hallucinogenic, and it's just.

[David Sims]

Maybe their most nakedly emotional movie.

[Ray Tantori]

Maybe.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

And then.

[David Sims]

And then.

[Ray Tantori]

But then at the end of it, too, like, where, you know, where she doesn't actually get to see him later. Like, it's just. It's hard for me to imagine anybody seeing that and being like, these guys don't have, like, a sense of, like, heart.

[David Sims]

Well, that seems so emotional. But in. The movie ends with her being, like, a bitter woman who has never gotten over these events. And the film basically cuts off mid sentence. Sure.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah. No, they're. Yeah, they're aware of. Of audience expectations and not necessarily wanting to give people, like, the Hollywood ending, so to speak.

[David Sims]

But that is also their only blockbuster. That movie was so fucking massive. And it.

[Griffin Newman]

By their standards.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but also by anyone's standard, it's like a fucking $160 million grossing, like, adult Western. That movie made, like, 300 worldwide. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I'm not. I'm not.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. I'm not.

[David Sims]

And it clearly is that there Was like a level of emotion in that that people connected with more on top of everything else. Box office Gun.

[Griffin Newman]

So this film came out 18th of January, 1985, right after Sundance, I guess. It does not open in the top five. Number one at the box office is a film we've covered an action comedy.

[David Sims]

Action comedy.

[Griffin Newman]

It's been out for a couple months.

[David Sims]

Okay, so that's Beverly Hills cup. Do you guys like Beverly Hills Cup?

[Jordan Fish]

Love it the best.

[Griffin Newman]

Pretty good.

[David Sims]

Which came out at Christmas. So this is now, like late January.

[Griffin Newman]

It's been out for about eight weeks. It's made $122 million.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It's front of the table.

[Griffin Newman]

No complaints.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Number two at the box office has been out for about three months. It was a Halloween release.

[David Sims]

Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

It's horror genre.

[David Sims]

Okay. Horror and quotes and air quotes.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, no. It's a horror film.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

One of the most iconic horror films ever made. Have helped launch for a studio.

[David Sims]

Is it the house that Freddy built? That's right. And the picture is called A Nightmare on Elm Street. Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The original West Quaven West. West Quaven.

[David Sims]

West Quaven's nightmare. Elm Street.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you guys like that movie?

[Jordan Fish]

I like it. I met him one time, and he claimed that he did all his writing while he was asleep in lucid dreams. He was like, during the day, I have errands to do and I have a family and I have stuff to do. So I just go to sleep, start a lucid dream, build the world of the film around me, hang out in it for like six hours. I wake up, I write everything down in like 15 minutes. And then I have stuff to do all day.

[David Sims]

So is Freddie ghostwriting his movies? This motherfucker went to sleep. Freddy Krueger just starts typing away with those fucking knife fingers. And then he wakes up and he's just like, oh, yeah, something came to me.

[Jordan Fish]

Freddy Krueger is real.

[David Sims]

Freddy Krueger's real. He was looking to get into pictures. He invaded Wes Craven's dreams.

[Ray Tantori]

Must be hard for him to type on the typewriter.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Do you think he only uses the other hand?

[Griffin Newman]

I love that film very much. I think it's very scary and very, very cool.

[David Sims]

And you like Freddy Krueger as a person? You endorse Freddie personal life.

[Griffin Newman]

Freddy Krueger.

[David Sims]

Freddy Krueger.

[Griffin Newman]

It's an interesting film in terms of this, the franchise it spawns. A lot of it is not there, right? Like the sort of the jokiness of Freddy. The like sort of like kind of Busby. Like the musical sequence kind of vibe of a lot of the kills in the later movies.

[David Sims]

I like both two and three more. Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

I like two and three a lot. I think one is more scary and impressive.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. And then right when you get to. I like the whole series, but when you get to four or five, you're like in goofballs McGillicuddy town.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Nightmare on Elm street is number two. Number three at the box office is a. We've. We've mentioned it before. I feel like we've probably done a box office around this period because I remember this one. It's a drama with two big stars. An Oscar winner and a younger male star who's. He's. He's pretty big at this point.

[David Sims]

It's not loose cannons.

[Griffin Newman]

No. And I don't even know what that is.

[David Sims]

That's a big swing. If I'd been right, it would have been impressive.

[Griffin Newman]

What's loose cannons?

[David Sims]

Fiend Hackman and Dan Aykroyd.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, that's right. No, that's 1990. That film. This film is 1984.

[David Sims]

Bigger, bigger. Oscar winning star. Like an older star. Old.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no.

[David Sims]

Just old.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no. The Oscar winner is a stakeout. No, no. The Oscar winner might be throwing you a little bit. The Oscar winner is a lady.

[David Sims]

The Oscar is a lady.

[Griffin Newman]

And the. The man. Well, he's in a film we just discussed. Is a Cohen influence.

[David Sims]

He's in a Cohen influence. And the man is the younger star.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I feel like. Yes, he is. Yes. He's eight years younger than her. Or seven years. Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

She's won an Oscar. He hasn't.

[Griffin Newman]

No. He's kind of at the start of his big run as an American movie star. He's, you know, like he's just emerging in America is a big deal. This is not a really big remembered movie. But the Oscar winner does get a best actress nomination for this film. For this film. She's already won one, but she gets another nom. Because she's a big actress. Like, she's a really respected actress.

[David Sims]

Jessica Lang.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, no.

[David Sims]

I'm.

[Griffin Newman]

But that's a good guess.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like someone who, like, racked up like, six noms, you know, over the career.

[David Sims]

I felt like Diane Keaton. No, but I'm getting close. It's not Mayor Roll, obviously.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I'm being. This film was shot by Vilmas Zigmund.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

It's. The director is one of those guys who made big movies, but I feel like is not as respected note her these days.

[David Sims]

Like a Mark Rydell or higher. Well, 20 years old.

[Griffin Newman]

Mark Rydell. You've really nailed it in that. It is Mark Rydell.

[David Sims]

It is Mark Rydell. So, in fact.

[Griffin Newman]

So it's like a perfect comp for him in a way, because it's him.

[Ray Tantori]

We're looking for a Mark Rydell type.

[Griffin Newman]

It's kind of like. Right. Yeah, they were kind of. When they made this movie, they were like, could we get Mark Rydell? Or a type? And they're like, oh, we could just get him.

[David Sims]

So he's kind of Rydell esque.

[Griffin Newman]

He's Rydell.

[David Sims]

He's Rydellian in his work. Okay. It's a Mark Rydell picture with the actress.

[Griffin Newman]

All right, I'm gonna give this.

[David Sims]

No, no. You have to give me one more clue. Who's the distributor of the picture?

[Griffin Newman]

The distributor.

[David Sims]

What if this unlocked it?

[Griffin Newman]

Universal.

[David Sims]

It's a Universal Mark R picture where the actress has an Oscar, the lead man is eight years younger. Is it a romance?

[Griffin Newman]

I think it is a. It's sort of like a. A drama, you know, about, like, bad happening to working people in America.

[David Sims]

Oh.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, I think. I'm not. I don't think it's a period piece. It might be. I don't know. I'll never watch it.

[David Sims]

You'll never watch it?

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I never say never, but it's not high on my.

[David Sims]

Give me one of the two actors.

[Griffin Newman]

Sissy Spacek is the actress.

[Jordan Fish]

Coal Miner's Daughter.

[Griffin Newman]

Nope. That's the movie she, of course, won for.

[David Sims]

It's not Raggedy Man. No, no, because that's. Of course, that was her husband. Been. That was Jack Fisk. It's Marel. Sissy's basic. She's older. The guy's. The guy's popping. The guy's. The guy's. He's the beginning of hot.

[Griffin Newman]

Now. He's a bit problematic.

[David Sims]

It's not Mel Gibson.

[Griffin Newman]

It sure is Mel Gibson.

[David Sims]

Sissy's basic Mel Gibson. Mark Rell.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep. The film is called the River.

[David Sims]

Okay. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. The second you say it, I picture the poster. My head.

[Griffin Newman]

They're in a river. They're like, oh, this river.

[David Sims]

To get there. They could have done that for five hours, and I wasn't gonna get their farmers.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's like, about flooding. Yeah, like the Tennessee Valley.

[David Sims]

Right. That's like a video box I remember seeing being like, wow, that looks serious.

[Griffin Newman]

And, like. Right. It's just like. It seems very serious.

[David Sims]

It seems very.

[Griffin Newman]

And like, the. The tagline is like an epic love story of today. I mean, unsurprisingly, it was a huge flop.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, even. I think it was, like, relatively well received. It's like his.

[David Sims]

Yeah, this poster is like him saving her from the river.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It's his follow up to On Golden Pond. So, like, he had juice.

[David Sims]

That was huge.

[Griffin Newman]

It was huge.

[David Sims]

The pot.

[Griffin Newman]

But like, he was like, pond. What about a river? This one is moving.

[David Sims]

He cracked his knuckles and he was like, hold my pond.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, but not a movie that's remembered. It's just one of those things like. Like I'm saying, I'm like, am I ever going to watch the River?

[David Sims]

No, you're right. You know what? In fact, I actually think you will never watch the river.

[Griffin Newman]

Probably not. Number four at the box office is not a movie. I know. I know. The stars. It's a rom com directed by a legendary comedic director who made a lot of movies with this guy, the star.

[David Sims]

Is it a Carl Reiner, Steve Martin movie? No.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, but although people got mad at us for not mentioning Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid during our Johnny Dangerously episode, and I didn't think about the fact that those movies came out around the same time and probably did kind of cancel.

[Ray Tantori]

Sorry for making a big deal out of that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, that you.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Apologies.

[Ray Tantori]

My alt.

[Griffin Newman]

You jerk.

[David Sims]

Okay, wait, so this is a different director and star work together a lot?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, they work together a lot. This guy is a big comic star of this era, but he exists in many eras.

[David Sims]

He's as many.

[Griffin Newman]

But he's having, like. He has a hot 80s.

[David Sims]

Is it George Burns?

[Griffin Newman]

No, but who else has, like, a really hot 80s who booms in the 80s?

[David Sims]

Is it Rodney?

[Griffin Newman]

No, we love him, though.

[David Sims]

But is it a. Is it a man of an advanced age?

[Griffin Newman]

He's a little older, but no. Okay, I'll tell you what. He's not advanced in height.

[David Sims]

Okay, so it is Dudley Moore.

[Griffin Newman]

There you go.

[David Sims]

And it's a Blake Edwards movie. That's right. And is it. It's not the one with him and Daryl Hannah?

[Griffin Newman]

No. What's that one?

[David Sims]

I think it's always called. It's called Crazy People or something like that.

[Griffin Newman]

Sounds like a great title.

[David Sims]

Okay, so it's not. It's not 10, obviously. No, it's after that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, it is.

[David Sims]

And this one. Is it Mickey and Maud?

[Griffin Newman]

Mickey and Maud.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

And who are Mickey and Maude?

[David Sims]

Well, he is Mickey.

[Griffin Newman]

Nope, he's neither.

[David Sims]

Okay, this movie sounds good.

[Griffin Newman]

It's got two ladies, one of whom has been on this podcast.

[David Sims]

Amy Irving.

[Griffin Newman]

Amy Irving. Okay. Maude.

[David Sims]

Who's Mickey?

[Griffin Newman]

Ann Reinking.

[David Sims]

Oh. Of. Of course.

[Griffin Newman]

The legendary Denta.

[David Sims]

Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know much about it.

[David Sims]

And what's Dudley Moore doing?

[Griffin Newman]

He's. He's an overworked tabloid reporter.

[David Sims]

Great.

[Griffin Newman]

Happily married to Mickey.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

And then he interviews a young cellist. Maude, I feel like, starts to have an affair.

[David Sims]

Dudley Moore has this huge 80s that were like a series of comedies, mostly predicated on this guy might be getting a dangerous amount of.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Like all of it was just like, hello.

[Griffin Newman]

And everyone's like, let me at you.

[David Sims]

He can't stop.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely. This was Ann Ranking's last acting role in a film.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

It's been remade in Bollywood a couple times or in India. I would say maybe not always in Bollywood. And yeah, not a movie. It was a box office display.

[David Sims]

The poster is him marrying both of them.

[Griffin Newman]

Hey. Only Dudley number five at the box office. This has been a great box office game. Is. It's a teen movie, I think.

[David Sims]

Okay. You're not very familiar. You don't. I'm.

[Griffin Newman]

I've never seen it. Oh, right. It has a bit of a odd, trivial part of film history. It was the first ever PG13.

[David Sims]

Huh.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone always says Temple of Doom and.

[David Sims]

All that, but they're the ones that inspired.

[Griffin Newman]

Now it was not the first released because that I believe, is Red dawn.

[David Sims]

But it was the first.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Team picture. Which distributor?

[Griffin Newman]

The distributor, of course, is 20th Century Fox.

[David Sims]

Fine folks at 20th Century Fox. Okay. And it's a.

[Griffin Newman]

It's from a very established comedy director. Made a zillion movies. Kind of a Blake Edwards type.

[David Sims]

Kind of a Blake Edwards.

[Griffin Newman]

Just a comic director who made a ton of movies. Yeah, but he would make. This guy would make more of your emotional comedies.

[David Sims]

Comedies with heart. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

He probably described as like a comedy should have hot. He'd probably like yell it.

[David Sims]

It's not Herbert Ross.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

It's not Gary Marshall.

[Griffin Newman]

It is Gary Marshall.

[David Sims]

It is Gary Marshall. Is it the Flamingo Kid?

[Griffin Newman]

It's Matt Dillon as the Flamingo.

[David Sims]

People like that one a lot. I've never seen it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's about a working class boy who works at a beach resort and learns valuable life lessons.

[David Sims]

Hey, learn some lessons.

[Griffin Newman]

I might stun you to learn that. Hector Elizondo appears.

[David Sims]

Wait a second. Security. How did this guy end up on set? Surely he wasn't invited.

[Griffin Newman]

Richard Krena.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

And Jessica Walter. That's fun.

[David Sims]

Sounds fun.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't really know much about it.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Anyone ever seen The.

[David Sims]

He's like a cabana boy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he, like, works at a resort.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the box office game. The rest of the 10 is a passage to India. New this week.

[David Sims]

Sure. What have you done lately?

[Griffin Newman]

I forget when we referenced that story, but it's somewhere.

[David Sims]

Oh, get ready. It's a call forward. It happens in three episodes.

[Griffin Newman]

A film called that's Dancing, which was a compilation of dancing in film.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Protocol. It's a Goldie Hawn movie.

[David Sims]

Yes. That's. It's.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, a Herbert Ross.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

In which she's become a cop. It's like a D.C. thing. She, like, stops an assassination attempt or something. Yeah. Starman, which we've covered. And the. The famous bomb, the Cotton Club.

[David Sims]

Oh, sure. It is great that Goldie Hawn just had her thing carved out for, like, 15 years where it's like, goldie shouldn't be here.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm a dumbass.

[David Sims]

This is the last place you want her. And, yep, she's gonna kind of figure it out.

[Griffin Newman]

Blood simple.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

An auspicious beginning to a great career for the Coen brothers.

[David Sims]

Are there things that you guys want to seed in our heads to think about as men who have been deep diving for several years now into their work as we go on this journey chronologically?

[Ray Tantori]

Well, I think we've touched on a lot of it over the course of this conversation. The first episode we did was about opening monologues, and that's certainly here. And then the second episode we did was called the Meticulous Montage, which you could also call a methodical montage, which is definitely a big part of this movie and a big part of many other movies.

[David Sims]

It is fascinating how much it does feel like all the pieces are here. We kept comparing this to other films in their filmography, and you're just sort of like, all the interest, all the obsessions. Right. All the stylistic flourishes. Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

And I think the goal is some interviewer where they're like, why are your movies so violent? And Ethan was like, you mean dramatic. Right, right, right. And they're just like, we want to make this dramatic. We want to make it specific. Anytime that someone's like, what are the themes underneath this? What are you trying to say about society or America? They're like, no, no, no. We're Americans. We're expressing our American ness through trying to make a film that's very specific and very dramatic.

[David Sims]

They talked about this in that Eggers interview where they were like, foreign critics, especially in Europe, tend to have hugely political readings of our movies. And it is transparently just that we do not think we have enough of an understanding to set a movie in any other country but the one we've lived our entire lives in. And here it's not viewed as some overarching statement about our country and our culture, but there it is, always taken that way, and there being any other country.

[Ray Tantori]

And when they tried to write Gambit, it was just a complete, you know. Yeah, no, I don't actually stand by that. I think there's a lot more going on in that movie also.

[Jordan Fish]

I think the thing to look out for when we talk to their storyboard artist, he was like, it's basically two things at all times. It's either surprise or suspense. Like we're just toggling back and forth between those. And that's basically the whole thing.

[Ray Tantori]

Yeah. I think if you're watching their movies and you're just watching like for suspense versus surprise or moments where suspense turns to surprise, I think you can get.

[David Sims]

A lot of out of it.

[Ray Tantori]

I. I kind of just want to do the, the thing about the gun though. I, I kind of just want to like walk through the thing that I figured out yesterday.

[David Sims]

Say this. Can you say this? Will you please say this?

[Ray Tantori]

So we. I've watched the movie a few times and I only put it all together on the very last viewing I did, which is just that early on in the movie, they go to Marty's house, the two, Abby and Ray, and she goes there to pick up bullets from a box that fit the gun that he gave her. And so she finds exactly three bullets that she puts into her gun, which has. Is a six shooter. So. And then when Visser steals the gun from their house, he checks the barrel and you see that there's three empty chambers and then three bullets. When Visser shoots Marty, he shoots one bullet.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Ray Tantori]

When Ray. Ray hits the gun, a bullet goes off.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

Then when Marty clicks the gun when he's getting buried, he clicks it three times and the last click is like right as Ray has taken the gun out of his hands, like very gently and in a way that the Cohen's describe it as like the Michelangelo Sistine Chapel shot of like God and man touching their hands. But like if you, if you track that, you realize that by the end of the movie when Abby takes Visser out and she doesn't even know this, she had exactly one bullet left in the chamber in, in the, in the revolver. It's just, it's just like a great example though of like sort of the, the Intricacies and the details of a plot that could actually, like, make the movie a lot more thrilling. Because, like, when I figured that out, I realized, like, Rey has no idea that he's like, he seems pretty. He thinks the gun's empty. Right. But when you're watching, you're like, oh, if Hidea had gotten one more shot off, like, he would have.

[David Sims]

But that's also right. Like, as meticulous as these things are, they're also sort of about how meaningless these things are. Like, it is absolute happenstance that he doesn't get shot by Hidea in that moment because he doesn't know that he's grabbing a still loaded gun from him. And that McDormand doesn't know that she only has one shot to actually hit the guy. Right, right.

[Ray Tantori]

It's a mistake on his part also to not check the gun.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

Like, several times throughout the movie.

[David Sims]

What was the other point you said you wanted us to tee you up? Well, we're not going to do it.

[Ray Tantori]

We're not going to do it.

[Jordan Fish]

But, no, these are beautifully made, poetic movies, and they're made with a level of care that, I mean, me and Jordan have just found. Like, basically every episode of our show, we do two pages of the to the YC script, which is this, like, $200 million action film, but every two pages, you can be like, okay, what's going on in these two pages? And then pull out scenes from other Coen brothers films. And everything tracks, every detail is there on purpose. There's never a story about their shoot where they're like, oh, yeah, we shot with this other actor for a long time. Or we shot for two weeks and we threw all this stuff out. These are intentionally made films. All their collaborators are really teed up to do good work with them always.

[David Sims]

They never talk about a feeling of misstepping on any film past this. Like, regardless of what the public perception was, they're never like, we had this idea and then we got into the edit and it didn't work. So we had to figure this whole thing out.

[Jordan Fish]

That's what I'm saying. I think you can just hold these things up to the light and even examine different movies against each other and the themes, even though they're like, we did a lot of this very instinctually. When they talk about their process, they're not like, oh, we went and made notes on all these James M. Cain books, and we're like, oh, let's make a master document where we can synthesize. They were like, we read all those books. Books at the same time. And then we just kept talking about them forever until we were able to instinctually kind of write in a James M. Cain mode. But just all of that intention together adds up to these films that just track. They just. Every piece is in its place for.

[David Sims]

A purpose that I think will lead to five months of exciting conversation here on Blackjack. No, these are. We were very excited that they won because it's just, like, great. All of these movies are fun to talk about.

[Griffin Newman]

They're the best.

[Jordan Fish]

Can I just say that?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, I just.

[David Sims]

The.

[Jordan Fish]

The premise of my life is that they're the best. You know, these are the best directors.

[David Sims]

I like every one of their movies.

[Jordan Fish]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I find every one of their movies interesting to talk about, to watch, to.

[Jordan Fish]

Think about, and to watch endlessly. Like, the rewatch value of these things. It's like every single time I've done a rewatch of all their movies, it's. It's a completely different experience.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Excited to do it. Thank you guys for being here. Thank you for kicking this voyage off on a good note.

[Ray Tantori]

Thank you so much for having us.

[David Sims]

Of course.

[Ray Tantori]

Such a pleasure.

[David Sims]

Hey, you guys are family. To the White Sea.

[Jordan Fish]

To the White Sea. New episodes coming out, everyone. Check this out. This is, like, the most bonkers bonanza action movie they ever wrote, and we're going through it, but as you said.

[David Sims]

You'Ll, like, jump into something in that script and be like, what is the recurring motif of the big guy and a little guy in Coen brothers movies? Oh, yeah, There's a episode out of, like, these elements. Right. What is the through line across the career?

[Jordan Fish]

We did whole episode on Distant Fathers. We did an episode on Sneaking Around. An episode on teamwork.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ray Tantori]

Act breaks. What is it? Why? Why. Why do you sort of intuitively make this jump from Act 1 to Act 2?

[David Sims]

David and I have Coen brothers. Big guy, little guy energy.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure, yeah.

[David Sims]

Coen brothers also kind of have Coen brothers. Big guy, little guy energy.

[Jordan Fish]

Well, that's. They say Joel got to direct because he was the bigger guy.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You and Jordan are basically the same height, so it falls apart there.

[Ray Tantori]

Ray's got a few inches on me.

[David Sims]

Really?

[Ray Tantori]

Let's just be.

[David Sims]

You can play height, though. You do. You do a mini. Think you got a little hair height working for you.

[Jordan Fish]

I was a little eraser head when me and Jordan directed the Porches video. We based our storyboards off of the blood simple storyboards.

[David Sims]

Really.

[Jordan Fish]

Yeah, we did. Which is each page we Had a little drawing of the frame and then we had a bird's eye view of the set and where the camera is going to go and where the actors went. Like, we love these guys. We really. We model our craft off of them. You guys, on almost a daily basis.

[David Sims]

Such a good job on the portraits video. But now I'm thinking, did we miss an opportunity by not having that video end with Ben discovering a bag of money under the porch and it's spiraling out into a 90 minute narrative? Fuck.

[Griffin Newman]

That would have been a nice payoff.

[Jordan Fish]

Maybe that's our fundraising trailer. What we already made.

[David Sims]

Yeah, there we go.

[Jordan Fish]

Oh, sure.

[David Sims]

Okay. Yeah. Let's talk off, offline. Thank you guys for being here. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Tune in next week for Raising Arizona. Yeah, it is wild. That's their second. Like as wild as it is that this is their.

[Jordan Fish]

It's a masterstroke.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Jordan Fish]

To go Raising Arizona in your second film.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Jordan Fish]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right. They. They go. Right. They. They go to Hollywood, basically. They try to make a commercial studio picture.

[Ray Tantori]

It has everything that this movie doesn't have in so many ways.

[David Sims]

Right. It's the counterpoint that then the rest of their career is like toggling between those two modes, usually within the same movie. So, yeah, tune in next week for that. And as always, David, what's the email you're currently reading?

[Griffin Newman]

I'm not reading an email.

[David Sims]

You look very deeply and thought of whatever is on your screen.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm just. I'm seeing Bring her back tonight and I was just like, what's that about? So I brought it up.

[Jordan Fish]

We'll give a shout out this weekend. We're all going to Ben's wedding.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, hey, true.

[David Sims]

Yeah, get married, Ben. Because I've got to be done. Then we have to end the show.

[Griffin Newman]

This has let's be done energy.

[David Sims]

This is what I'm saying. What I'm saying is because I have mangled the setup and we need to end on something strong. Ben, is there anything you want to say on the record? Your last episode as an unmarried man.

[Griffin Newman]

Fuck, I don't. I had a lot of. I was up to a lot of nonsense and that was really fun. Do I remember a lot of it? No. But damn, did I shine bright as hell as a fucked up guy. And I'm glad that I made it this far and I met someone who really is great. Love can be. Love can happen to you.

[Jordan Fish]

Feel that in the bottom of my heart.

[Griffin Newman]

That's beautiful.

[David Sims]

Beautiful words, man. Love can happen.

[Griffin Newman]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley.

[David Sims]

Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas and our Associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by.

[Griffin Newman]

AJ McKeon and Alan Smithee, research by JJ Birch.

[David Sims]

Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery.

[Griffin Newman]

In the Great American Novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to.

[David Sims]

All of the real nerdy.

[Griffin Newman]

Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes.

[David Sims]

Follow us on social at Blank checkpod.

[Griffin Newman]

Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack.

[David Sims]

This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions. World is full of complainers. That's not it. That was to Michael Jackson.