Critical Darlings: Sentimental Value and Belated Oscar Breakthroughs with Joe Reid

Summary

Blank Check Podcast: “Critical Darlings – Sentimental Value and Belated Oscar Breakthroughs” (Feb 26, 2026)

Hosts: Richard Lawson, Alison Wilmore
Producer: Benjamin Frisch
Special Guest: Joe Reid (Vulture, This Had Oscar Buzz)
Theme: A deep-dive into Joachim Trier’s Sentimental Value and the phenomenon of late Oscar breakthroughs, plus larger conversations around how and why certain films and filmmakers are recognized (or overlooked) by the Academy.

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Episode Overview

This episode explores Sentimental Value—Joachim Trier’s latest film and its unique path to the Oscars—using it as a springboard to discuss how directors, especially international auteurs, often receive Academy recognition for later, sometimes less "breakthrough" films. With guest Joe Reid, the hosts break down sentimental Oscar votes, the recurring “delayed recognition” trend, and the nuanced politics of rewarding films about filmmaking itself.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Joe Reid’s Oscar Watching & “This Had Oscar Buzz” Podcast

• Joe discusses his annual project of watching and ranking all Oscar-nominated films (00:51), including plenty of “bad stuff,” especially in the short categories.
• Animated Shorts & Craft Categories: Animated shorts often show more creative technique than narrative depth; animated features tend to look “same-y” (01:32).
  • Joe: “What animated short tends to do for me is it highlights how samey animated feature tends to be every year… But then you look at the animated shorts and it’s like, oh, there are so many different ways to do animation.” (01:32)
• His podcast covers movies that had “Oscar buzz” but failed to get nominated, balancing those that deserved recognition with those whose awards campaigns “died” due to lackluster reception (03:05–04:15).

2. The ‘Belated Oscar Breakthrough’ Phenomenon

• Discussion of how an auteur’s most acclaimed or innovative work often goes unrewarded, while a subsequent, sometimes safer film becomes their Oscar breakthrough (08:46–09:19).
  • Allison: “It does feel like it is not someone's incredible breakthrough that is the film that gets rewarded. It’s like then afterwards they’re like, oh, we like this person. And then it’s maybe a slightly lesser film.”
  • Case Studies:
    • Joachim Trier: “Wish the attention that this has gotten at the Oscars was what Worst Person [in the World] had gotten. But sometimes that’s just not how the Academy works.” (08:46)
    • David Fincher: Fight Club and Zodiac (overlooked), then Benjamin Button gets love (23:08–24:52).
    • Coen Brothers: Fargo meets the Academy “halfway”; No Country For Old Men finally gets full recognition (29:30–30:02).
    • Scorsese: Years of “should have won” finally rewarded for The Departed (30:17).
    • PTA, Danny Boyle, Chloe Zhao: Consistent pattern of early-career edginess, late-career Oscar-friendliness (28:08–29:10).

3. ‘Movies About Movies’ and Award Season Politics

• Do films about filmmaking get an unfair advantage?
  • Statistical analyses say no—while high-profile examples exist, films about the industry are not racking up wins as often as assumed (13:06–14:49). New York Times’ Oscar metrics cited.
  • David: “If it was [an easy path], then Babylon would have like 12 Oscars.”
  • Recent “about-movies” boom (The Fabelmans, Empire of Light, Babylon) discussed, with more critical than awards success (15:03).
• Sentimental Value as “about filmmaking” but more as a family drama, avoids the typical self-congratulatory pitfalls—using the artistic process to explore family pain rather than Hollywood nostalgia (44:01–45:08).

4. Sentimental Value — Film Analysis & Spoilers (39:34–59:01)

• Themes:
  • Family legacy, generational pain, artistic authenticity, reconciliation through art.
  • “Sentimental value” of both objects and creative projects; the weight of family history (49:02–50:19).
  • B: “How much you can change family trajectory and how much you kind of have to deal with what is innate and almost kind of inevitable.” (49:17)
• Plot Detail:
  • Follows an aging Scandinavian filmmaker (Skarsgård) trying to cast his daughter in a new movie, but drawn instead to a Hollywood star (Elle Fanning). Explores the tension between personal and artistic authenticity.
  • Film never demonizes or sanctifies anyone—everyone’s desires and resentments get equal weight (44:22).
• Memorable Moment:
  • The “stove” device—characters listen through the house’s oven to echoes of the past, literalizing generational hauntings (55:14).
  • A: “I love his montages, the bursts of flashbacks into the house… energy I wish some other parts of the film had.” (53:45)
• Meta Commentary:
  • Trier’s unsuccessful attempt at English-language filmmaking (Louder Than Bombs) and how Sentimental Value quietly reflects on the challenge of staying authentic while courting international (or Netflix) funding (38:12).
  • Elle Fanning’s character’s arc—her eagerness, her limits, her exit for reasons of authenticity—mirrors anxieties about Hollywood actors “fitting” into Euro cinema.

5. Acting, Categories, and Oscar Campaign Strategies

• The campaign for supporting vs. lead categories and how vote-splitting and “category fraud” happen (61:12–64:08).
  • Joe: “There are movies with two leads, four leads, zero leads sometimes.”
• Stardom in international entries: Elle Fanning’s presence likely helped garner attention (65:19–65:53).

6. The 2026 International Film Race & Sentiment around Sentimental Value (58:00–61:12)

• Sentimental Value overperformed with Oscar nods but is up against much “noisier” or more urgent, political contenders (“It Was Just An Accident,” “The Secret Agent,” “Serat,” “The Voice of Hendra Job”) (59:25–60:14).
  • A: “It’s possible that it will then go on to not win anything, but I was surprised by how many nominations it got.”
• Career momentum for Skarsgård, but “it hasn’t held on to that momentum or that sort of heat” in the run-up to the ceremony (61:01).
• Internationalization of the Oscars: greater overlap between Best Picture and International Feature races, shifting campaign dynamics (66:22–67:41).

7. Larger Oscar Trends & Cultural Commentary

• Briefly, the impact of international actors crossing into English-language (“Wagner Moura, Renata Reinzva… more American films after international breakout”) and the limits for non-US stars (74:08–77:38).
• The “white person problems” critique of Trier’s films—social context allows for delicate introspection, but may hinder their urgency compared to more political award-season fare (69:33–70:37).
  • A: “These characters are able to embark on these… explorations about their identities… because they have a really solid, you know, stable, beautiful stained wood floors underneath them, health care, blah, blah, blah, all this other stuff.” (69:33)
• Fun moment on the explosion of Brazilian/Portuguese comments online supporting Wagner Moura after “Secret Agent” (78:01+).

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

On the lack of Oscar love for animated shorts:

• Joe (01:32): “What animated short tends to do for me is it highlights how samey animated feature tends to be every year…”

On the nature of Oscar “corrections”:

• Allison (08:48): “It does feel like it is not someone's incredible breakthrough that is the film that gets rewarded… then afterwards, they're like, oh, we like this person.”

On movies about movies:

• Allison (15:03): "Like, it was the 2022 … Oscars that went overwhelmingly to everything everywhere all at once. But that was the year of Babylon. Empire of Light, the Fabelmans, Blonde. … and you read those, you’re like, those are not the films that went undominated that year."
• David (14:49): “If it was [so easy], then Babylon would have like 12 Oscars.”

On Trier’s career choices and meta aspects:

• B (39:02): “[Skarsgård’s character] is like maybe him resigning a little bit to, like, I think I'm good in this lane. Like, I'm probably not going to skip across the Atlantic and become Jan de Bont.”

On the film’s take on family and authenticity:

• A (53:45): “My favorite parts of this film are the bursts … of flashbacks into the house … runs through from Gustav’s childhood into … the ways in which there’s, like, enormous bursts of history…”
• B (49:17): “…about how much you can change family trajectory… how much you kind of have to deal with what is innate and almost kind of inevitable…”

On Oscar campaign strategies and outcomes:

• Joe (63:15): “There are movies with four leads. There are movies with zero leads. Sometimes. You know what I mean?”

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Notable/Memorable Moments

• Recurring jokes about J. Kelly, an imaginary Oscar-bait film that never got made, as shorthand for “hypothetical, calculated award-seekers.” (24:04, 48:00, 63:20)
• Media meta-commentary: On actors doing ads, nostalgia for “Where’s the Beef?” and “Micro Machines guy,” the American tendency to cycle back to sentimental pop culture touchstones (06:29–07:16).
• Discussion of the “stove” as a literal conduit for memory/haunting in the film (55:14).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:51–04:15 – Joe’s Oscar-watching marathon & “Oscar Buzz” podcast premise
• 08:46–13:06 – Trier’s career development; sentimental Oscar wins/belated recognition
• 13:06–19:04 – Discussion of “movies about movies” and their real Oscar odds
• 23:08–30:17 – Other directors (Fincher, Scorsese, PT Anderson, Coens) and paths to “belated” recognition
• 39:34–59:01 – Sentimental Value: Spoilers and structural analysis
• 61:01–66:22 – Sentimental Value’s Oscar campaign vs. other International Feature contenders
• 74:08–77:38 – International actors breaking through in US/Awards discourse

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Final Thoughts

• Sentimental Value stands as a poignant, nuanced meditation on generational pain, the limits of art as reconciliation, and the complexities of creative legacy—deftly avoiding sentimentality while still acknowledging it.
• The episode frames the film as emblematic of both the strengths and quirks of contemporary Oscar voting: the Academy sometimes “corrects” past oversights, but not always for the right work, and trends like “movies about movies” are less powerful than assumed.
• The internationalization of the Oscars has shifted the landscape but hasn’t erased cultural biases or the inertia favoring “known quantities.”
• The hosts close with news on their next episode (“Sinners,” and more awards analysis), and plug Joe Reid’s “This Had Oscar Buzz” for further deep dives.

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For listeners:
This episode is richly detailed and welcoming of digression—packed with industry anecdotes, trivia, and playful bickering. It’s essential listening (or reading) for Oscar obsessives, film fans interested in campaign strategies, or anyone wanting an in-depth look at how a movie like Sentimental Value ends up in the awards spotlight.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the awards season. Conversation one contender at a time. Please welcome to the stage your hosts, Richard Lawson and Alison Wilmore.

[B]

Marie. Thank you as ever for your spirited introduction. We are once again joined with producer Ben. Hello, Ben.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

And we have a special guest from Vulture, Alison's coworker and the host of this Head Oscar Buzz, the podcast, Joe Reed. Hello.

[D]

Hi. Thank you for having me.

[B]

Well, we're glad you could make it.

[D]

Me too.

[B]

Especially because you're in a really busy time of your working life right now.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

People don't know. Every year Joe does a ranking of every film, short or feature. Right. Nominated for an Oscar. So you have to watch a ton of shit, 50 of them, and say shit deliberately Y. A lot of times there's bad stuff.

[A]

Uh huh.

[D]

Live action short has not covered itself in glory for many, many years. I feel like.

[B]

Is it any better this year?

[D]

No. As I was saying to Allison earlier, there are fewer things that feel like absolutely terrible and awful. You know, there's usually some incredibly treacly like animated short or whatever or like a live action short.

[B]

And it wins.

[D]

Right. And it inevitably wins. There's none of those. But there's also none of the one or two that are like, oh, this is really great.

[B]

Right.

[D]

There's one animated short called Butterfly that I think looks incredibly beautiful and they like paint it on glass to do the animation. And I'm like, this is really. But what animated short tends to do for me is it highlights how samey animated feature tends to be every year where it's just like, even when there's Arco looks different than Zootopia 2 or whatever. But then you look at the animated shorts and it's like, oh, there are so many different ways to do animation.

[A]

Yeah. But at the same time also, whenever I watch the animated shorts, I'm always like, oh, you thought so much about like the technique and visuals you were going to bring to this. And like not about the content or structure at all.

[B]

A lot of times it's like students, you know.

[D]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And you're like, why? You did this incredible job of like using. Yeah. Like a watercolor technique for this or something. I've never seen anything like that.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

But it's sadly just to get a job at Pixar or.

[D]

Right. No, right, yeah.

[A]

Or you have. Yeah, you just have national funding to support you when doing this kind of film.

[D]

Board of Canada comes through.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. They come through all the time.

[B]

Those, those shorts or the Estonian one, Flo that Won at the Oscars, you know, and I think it's exciting to. Which also looks different and spider verse. So you're watching all the nominated films, but your podcast has had Oscar buzz, as the title suggests. Is about movies that people thought might get awards but didn't end up getting them or even the nominations.

[D]

It's a tricky way to make me have to watch all the movies because it's just, you know, I get them coming in, I get them coming out.

[B]

So do you have, off the top of your head, a couple of the biggest 20, 25 movies that had Oscar buzz that failed to materialize?

[D]

It's more so than I would have expected because this was such. And you guys, I'm sure, have talked about this before. Like, it's such a top heavy year in terms of nominations. All the nominations are really concentrated in those, like, best picture ones. So, like, things that. Like J. Kelly that. Like, even when J. Kelly disappointed.

[A]

I don't. I don't think that's a real movie, though.

[D]

Well, no, I mean, but the idea

[B]

of J. Kelly sure had Masterpah. Yeah.

[D]

I mean, the fact that Wicked for Good didn't get any nominations was like, I got so many messages that day being like, for me.

[B]

Yes. I can't believe you can cover Wicked for Good on your podcast. That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Things like, I mean, stuff that died in festival season, like Rental Family, stuff that I think people were maybe hoping might get a craft nomination, like Testament of Ann Lee. So the nice thing about doing our podcast is sometimes we're talking about a movie that we really liked and we wish had gotten Oscar nominations, but it didn't happen. And then the other side of it is movies that turned out to be really bad and everybody sort of. They got kind of found out before the Oscars.

[B]

Yeah. I think it's almost like an even split.

[D]

It is. Yes.

[B]

Stuff that you're like, oh, man, that would have been so cool if that had actually gotten over the finish line. And other stuff. And you're like, good. Rental family.

[D]

Good. I'm so excited to do our episode on Ella McKay. We usually tend to let these movies tend to wait a year before we get into them to give us a little bit of distance.

[B]

What movie is Ella gonna talk about when she's on the show?

[D]

The documentary that they made about her life being the first person to become the governor of the state that they were born and raised in.

[B]

Right. Did that state have the blizzard? We don't know.

[D]

The climate is all over the place.

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah. People can listen to that. We are here to talk about sentimental value this week.

[A]

Yes. Before then, I did want to pick up a thread from last episode where we talked about the Secret Agent and we were mourning the fact that Tanya Maria, the incredible actor.

[B]

Oh, Donna Sebastiana.

[A]

Donna Sebastiana. In it, someone who is not like a really a professional actor who. Who's kind of like in Filio's films, has become this national icon. Did not get an Oscar nomination, but what she did get is a series of Burger King ads.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

In Brazil.

[D]

Oh, I'm so happy.

[A]

In which she is touting, I guess, a meal that offers two hamburgers a side and a drink for 25.90.

[D]

So the where's the Beef lady could never. Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. So you can find those online.

[B]

She's wearing the Burger King cardboard.

[A]

She's just like sitting on a bed and munching in this very relatable way.

[D]

Well, she for years was inside the Burger King costume with the big hat or whatever. So now she gets to show her friends.

[C]

Her cadence is very similar in the S too. She's just sort of like shouting almost.

[A]

And she says, like absolute cinema.

[B]

I think you can practically see the cigarette smoke from the cigarette. Looks at the ashtray, like, right off camera. Right off camera.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

No. Good for her. I mean, I wish that we would do that with like our, you know, elder discoveries, you know, in this country. I know. Maybe. I guess we have in the past. Maybe.

[D]

But where's should be doing.

[B]

But she's. But she's. But she's like, getting busy.

[D]

Yeah, that is true.

[A]

She's not in lacking work.

[B]

She was just on Broadway.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Glenn Close for Wendy's.

[B]

It's come to this.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you know, maybe it is time to bring back the where's the Beef campaign.

[D]

Well, we've completely lost the taboo of actors doing ads anyway. If you watch the super bowl, like, it's just like. No, the wasteland of that. So, you know what? Have them do silly funny ones.

[A]

Yeah. No, I'm just going to say time to bring back that taboo.

[D]

Bring back many more taboos, and that's one of them.

[A]

You want to preserve your movie star gleam.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You got to be choosier about the. You know, I know. We all have to make money. We all have to pay rent and. Or purchase a nice house on the hills.

[D]

Back to the area of Bill Murray doing Suntory Times.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You can't do it in America. Well, that's the thing is, like, you Used to be able to kind of go to Europe or go to Japan and shoot commercial. One would know.

[D]

Yeah. A low key movie that, like, the kids wouldn't understand now because they're like, what? Why doesn't he just do ads in the America?

[B]

And why isn't she an influencer, you know? Yeah, but it's also, it's sucking up the work that like the Snapple lady used to get and the where's the Beef lady used to get that the guy who talked fast for Micro Machines, the dancing clip of him on the

[D]

Oscars recently, actually, the Micro Machines guy, because they had him come out and to read the. Like, they used to have somebody come out before they realized that the Oscars had to be as short as possible. They used to have somebody come out and read the rules about, like, how movies are submitted to the Academy and who votes for what and what committees and whatever. And so they had the Micro Machines guy come out and like motormouth his way through the rules.

[B]

Oh, that's nice. I mean, would you say that the Micro Machines guy has some sentimental value?

[D]

Oh, perhaps for those of us who

[F]

were there at the time.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I loved him. Yeah. So, yeah, we're talking about Joachim Trier's Sentimental Value, a film that we've all seen and I think all liked it. Yeah. Okay. And I had seen it at Cannes and liked it, but I was like, so raring to go because of. I loved Worst Person so much that I think that sentimental value on that first viewing is a little bit of a comedown. But on the second viewing, maybe it's because I had been, like, alone for days. Like, it really affected me in a really strong way. So I think Allyson, you and I were talking about, like, how part of this podcast where we were rewatching Oscar movies, which I don't always do every year. It's nice because I now have a deeper appreciation for this film than I did before. That said, I really wish that the attention that this has gotten at the Oscars was what Worst Person had gotten.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

But sometimes that's just not how the Academy works.

[A]

Yeah. It's funny how often. I mean, at least anecdotally, and maybe we can come up with actual examples of this. It does feel like it is not someone's like, incredible breakthrough. That is the film that gets rewarded. It's like then afterwards they're like, oh, we like this person.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And then it's like maybe a slightly lesser film. And I do feel like sentimental Value is. I do not like it as much as worst person in the world, I do like it, but it just doesn't

[B]

have that same exciting verve in the way. Way that like. Well, I don't know.

[A]

His other films, some of which deal with some like kind of, you know, like deal with depression, deal with suicidal ideation. They have this kind of French new wavy energy, this kind of like propulsion and like youthfulness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this film is a more grown up film. It is as rooted in this kind of aging filmmaker, you know, father figure who is trying to reconnect with his children as it is in these two daughters, both of whom are adults.

[D]

One for the boomers. A little bit. A little bit.

[A]

At least partially, I think so. Yeah. Like, it is. Yeah, it. I mean, it's been.

[B]

It's about people who own real estate. So that's not for.

[D]

Right. That's not for us.

[C]

Generational.

[A]

Generational real estate, though also an enormous pain point for them and carries some significant financial stakes as well, so.

[B]

But no, it is. It is by some measures. I mean, there is that part halfway through or so where there's the kind of face montage where their faces keep changing that you're like, okay, this is more experimental in the vein of something from worse person would be, but you know, it's a sturdy family drama and I think it's just. It's less exciting. And I think that I would say the same about other filmmakers who have made good work but the academy has either ignored entirely or like given a courtesy nod here and there too. And then their more conventional film is the one that breaks through.

[E]

David, this episode, don't act so surprised because it's a familiar friend. Okay, this episode's brought to you by Mubi Yawn.

[F]

Just kidding.

[B]

Comfortable.

[E]

Sure. We love them.

[F]

They are a global film company that champions great cinema. Iconic directors, emerging auteurs. Always something new to discover with Mubi. Each and every film hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema. Nothing more to say, I guess.

[E]

Wrong. There's a new film coming to theaters.

[F]

Yep, movie theaters. February 13th. The first Nigerian film ever in official competition.

[E]

Again, that's pretty wild.

[F]

This is a film by Akanola Davis called My Father's Shadow is BAFTA nominated poetic, tender portrait of a father son bond framed within the political landscape of 1993, Lagos in Nigeria. It is about a father and two young sons as they journey into and around the vibrantly rendered Nigerian metropolis, reckoning their relationship, navigating the city that's in the middle of a democratic crisis. Written by real life brothers Akanola Davis Jr. And Wally Davis.

[E]

Love it.

[F]

Brothers co wrote this groundbreaking feature debut. And you've got Sofie Derisu. Oh. From Slow Horses. I love him. I hope I'm saying his name right, but he's a really good actor and he's the star. It's worth seeing. It's in theaters. It's great to go to a theater.

[E]

It's in theaters. We love that Mubi puts Mubies in theaters before ultimately ending up on their wonderful platform.

[F]

Dang.

[B]

Right?

[E]

I'm just looking at some of the stuff they got right now. Die, my love. Of course.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

An important watch. A necessary watch for any blankie. La Graza La Grazia, the new Paolo Sorrentino movie which I missed in theaters. Good moment to catch up with it. The great Shall We Dance? Oh, the classic, the original.

[F]

Oh my goodness. That's fun. Like a restoration.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

And look what they.

[E]

They got a collection called Heartthrob Nicholas Cage. It's young, Dreamy Cage.

[C]

Wow.

[F]

Still dreamy to me.

[E]

Hey, you're very open hearted.

[F]

Anyway, to stream the best of cinema, you can try MUBI free for 30 [e-mail] blankcheck that's M U B I.com blankcheck for a whole month of great cinema for free. And then go see my father's shadow in theaters, please. Thank you for listening. Thank you, thank you for your attention to this matter.

[E]

Thank you very kind.

[C]

So obviously there is the like the Yorgo see thing of like them picking up on this movie because it's after the breakthrough. But could it also be something to do with the fact that this is about Hollywood or not Hollywood, but this is about filmmaking and acting and the. You know how hard it is.

[A]

Sure, sure. More just about the business. Very honestly, I think, I mean I think it is right. It has been long accepted if not necessarily supported in terms of the numbers that Hollywood loves to award or like loves movies about itself. Right. And like certainly there have been some very high profile movies that have gotten saluted. But like Ben Zosmer who wrote this book called Oscar Metrics, did a piece in the New York Times in 2020 and just kind of running the numbers about like if you like depending on how broadly you define. Right. Where you're like, is Marriage story a movie that it invol. But it's not about. Right. Like is not necessarily about the business,

[D]

which is about an actress.

[A]

Exactly. And I feel like even counting those, he kind of arrived at this that like no, we are not more inclined like the Oscars are not more inclined to give out awards. And like, of all of the kind of like, Best Picture winners, I mean, like, it's because. I think we think about this because the Artist and then Argo won best.

[D]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Yeah. It was those two years where it was like, wait a second. There seems to be a secret formula to getting this Oscar attention that maybe actually isn't. I mean, because. Because if it was, then Babylon would have like 12 Oscars.

[D]

The Fabelmans is another one that I remember like, going, that is like, what does Spielberg have to do to win another Oscar? It's like, oh, be sentimental. And to make a movie about movies. And it's like, well, he did it. What else do you want? And people were like, eh, well, so

[A]

that was another interesting. Like that piece, the New York Times piece was from 2020. And pointed out even then that like, even though that statistically these movies are not more inclined, more recently, Hollywood has been more inclined to be interested in them in terms of awards. So, like, yeah, you know, like, I mean, famously Singing in the Rain, never up for Best Picture. Right, right. But like, yeah, like, it was the 2022, which was the 20. The Oscars in 2023. The Oscars that went like, overwhelmingly to everything everywhere, all at once. Yes, but that was the year of Babylon. Empire of Light, the Fabelmans Blonde, you

[B]

know, a loving tribute to Hollywood salon.

[A]

I mean, or I mentioned, like, the India Submission. That year was last film show. Nope. Came out that year. Did not get Oscars.

[B]

But about. Yeah, partly enough.

[A]

Even. Like, Panahi's film, no Bears was about filmmaking.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Was about him making a film. But yeah, like, when you read those, you're like, those are not the films that went un dominated that year.

[B]

Right.

[D]

There is a little bit of evidence everywhere that has a little bit to do with like, you know, one of her Persona. She's an actress and they recreate the

[A]

references her own in the Mood for

[D]

Love and that kind of stuff.

[A]

Yeah, well, and I mean, like the kind of martial arts you could say are existing within her own personal film history.

[D]

And I always think about a movie like the Shape of Water and the fact that that movie. I was always so impressed with the way that that movie was able to that year capture the. Oh, we remember when Hollywood was, you know, old Hollywood or whatever, without. Because that was the year of B2 was happening. Like, did that without actually making a movie about a filmmaker or the studio system or anything like that. And that was a movie that felt like it was a Movie about movies without actually ever being about that. Beyond the fact that like she lives above a theater.

[B]

Right. But the fish monster did represent caa.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So there was some opening.

[A]

I mean a lot of the kind of hang ringy pieces that I found that were about this topic were from 2020. Do you know why there was what movie? Yeah, Mank.

[B]

Oh, Mr. Man.

[A]

Which did seem like kind of created. Yes. To be like a movie that we all talk about all the time with its enormous print. I did not love Mank. But it was like, it was almost like a joke about an author. Oh yeah.

[D]

Oh yeah.

[B]

I mean the thing about like maybe I'm wrong, but do authors like of books get shit for writing about writers? It's like, well, wouldn't filmmakers sometimes make something that's kind of.

[D]

Out of our 8 out of 10 Stephen King books are about a writer.

[A]

But that said, I do feel like I personally complain about how many novels are set like on college campuses.

[C]

Maybe adjacent professors cheating on their wives.

[A]

Yes, exactly. I mean like maybe some adjunct who is a novelist on this. You know, you're like, what are you drawing from here? So yeah, sure, sure. I mean, I don't mind movies about movies, I think as long as they're not. I think the thing that made as

[B]

long as it's America's sweetheart, obviously that's the pinnacle.

[D]

Right.

[A]

I mean the thing about like that 2022 year is like what stand out was not just how many movies were about movies, but how many movies were about like these kind of incredibly bittersweet but like glassy eyed like cinematic experience. Like I think I wrote about it that year. Multiple of those movies started with someone explaining like 24 frames per second and like how that like brain. Like I remember that multiple movies that year included someone giving that explanation for how, you know, we process that into the illusion of movement.

[B]

I mean I will defend Empire of Yeah, you really do love that movie.

[D]

And that got one single solitary Oscar nomination for cinematography.

[B]

Well, it's beautiful. Yeah, should have been score too.

[D]

I was always a little bit annoyed that nope wasn't able to because my thing with craft categories is always like if you make a movie about a fashion designer, you are probably going to get a costume nomination.

[F]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Sure, sure.

[D]

And I always was like, nope, has a cinematographer as a character. Like what else do they got to do?

[B]

I have bad news for Angelina's Jolie's Couture. I don't think that's getting in there. It was a Toronto movie last time.

[D]

Probably not.

[A]

Yeah, but yeah, I know. How many movies have not just like, a cinematographer character, but one who comes on board with their, like, personal made, like, crank camera to explain, and it's

[D]

like, integral to the plot or whatever.

[B]

Wait, can we. Can we do an experiment and we'll pool our resources and make a movie about, like, a sound design editor?

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. If we can sweep those categories. Yeah, I know.

[A]

We can do it. We can do it.

[D]

It'll be called, like, underwater or something. And they're like, they're an expert in, like, underwater.

[C]

Well, there's the podcast movie.

[A]

There is. There is also, like, there is a horror movie about a sound guy from

[B]

not look it up, the podcast movie I did see at Sundance. And it's not good. Yeah, it also. It about. I think I might have said this on our. When I was back from Sundance, but it imagines podcasting as something you do at 2 in the morning for five minutes.

[D]

No, but that's not the podcast horror movie, because there is also a horror movie coming out about, like, essentially, it seems like it's a haunted podcast. I'm not even making it.

[B]

Well, undertone.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, that was at Sundance.

[D]

Oh, that was at Sundance.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

That's the one you're talking about. And it's very bad.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

But it's basically just like, what if Hereditary had a podcast element?

[D]

I didn't realize it was a Sundance. Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But anyway, so. So I think that the. The podcast movie is still. We could still make it.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Barbarian Sound Studio.

[D]

Oh, of course. Yes, that's right.

[A]

Yeah. Anyway.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

What about a movie about a dedicated animated short filmmaker? How would that. How would that work?

[A]

What if it's about getting Film Board of Canada funding?

[D]

Oh, my. Honestly, a worthy subject for. Exactly.

[B]

In Trier's case, maybe it was the sort of filmmaking aspect that helped him. I mean, look, Worst Person got an expected international feature nomination, but a kind of more surprise screenplay nomination, which was pretty exciting.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

People. I thought or hoped that maybe Renata Reinzva, who also starred in that film, would get in, but she didn't. But I feel like there are other examples of this. Like, why did Sean Baker, after years of kind of not even. I don't think he was knocking at the door. I think people were knocking at the door. At the door for him.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

And then they were like, okay, Willem Dafoe is good in the Florida project.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was the lone nomination for that movie. And then all of a sudden, Enora, like, crashes through the side of the wall, you know, like, the building. Why did that happen with Honora?

[D]

I believe I was on a podcast with you where I made the prediction that Simon Rex was gonna get a nomination for Red Rocket before anybody in that movie. I think so, too. But after that movie really sort of got passed over. I remember being even more sort of pessimistic about, like, once a Nora won the Palm, I think that made it something that you have to really pay attention to, and it sort of, like, demanded attention for itself. But that still is. It kind of runs counter to my sort of grand theory about this kind of thing. Whereas, you know, these auteurs will have an early movie that is obviously very specific, esoteric, challenging, edgy. The kind of thing that you're really only gonna get, like, small financing for PI from Darren Aronofsky or, like, Citizen Ruth from Alexander Payne or something like that. And then as they sort of move up, they get more funding. There are more people whose opinions they have to listen to. They get bigger stars. You get about Schmidt for, you know, with Nicholson, and I think then sort of inevitably, I think also there is an element of just awareness builds. You know what I mean? More people know who you are. And I think so much of the Oscar race ends up being, like, familiarity. You have to be somebody who these voters already know about, or else they're just not gonna watch.

[B]

Or someone who hits that new factor. Exactly. Right.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

You know, which is really hard to nail that.

[D]

I mean, I. Shyamalan being an example, that wasn't his first movie, but, like, it was early enough that he. They really, like, got him on the up.

[B]

And I would say the Daniels to an extent. Yeah. Like, they had other stuff, but, like, Swiss Army Madness. They were brand new to the Academy.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, but it's interesting to look at someone like David Fincher say, you know, and you're like, he's made these movies, like Fight Club. Like, that feels like it has a larger cultural footprint. I. You know, but, like, was not like, a kind of, like, an Oscar favorite by any means.

[D]

And I imagine there were a ton of Oscar voters that year who just didn't watch it because they didn't want to watch a movie called Fight Club that all the previews looked like was, you know, bloody and ugly, and they didn't want to subject themselves to that.

[A]

Yeah. And then you did Zodiac, which is a movie that you would think would be.

[D]

That's the one.

[B]

And if that came out now, it would get, like, 12 nominations because he

[D]

wasn't yeah, he wasn't in the club yet. That's. There's another. That's the other thing.

[B]

And there was more to choose from back then, from an academy perspective maybe where they were like, that's a great, robust movie, but, like, we don't need it. We have.

[A]

Right. And so then instead, of course, they do give him nominations for the movie he makes the next year, the Curious Case of Benjamin Button.

[B]

Which, like, you know, I will defend that movie, but like, it is,

[A]

it

[B]

is almost shocking for someone where Fincher was at that point in his career. You're like, whoa, you. This is a. This is a real right turn, like into really like Oscar friendly territory in a way that I did not think. And you know, look, if there was a move, if the movie J. Kelly had been made and come out like, just like, you know, theorize a hypothetical, you would look at a filmmaker like Noah Baumbach and be like, how did the guy who made the fucking Squid and the whale get to this point? Whereas Marriage Story exists on this sort of crux where, like, it has that bomback edge, but it's just nice enough. And then he tips way too far toward the Oscar friendly direction. Whereas Fincher kind of pulled back almost immediately. He was. Yeah.

[A]

He doesn't also ever seem like someone who, I mean, aside from Benjamin Button, he's not someone who feels like they're chasing and then Mank, of course, the greatest film he's ever made, but that

[B]

was like, for his dad, like, you

[D]

know, Benjamin Button is also a movie that features like tiny old man Brad Pitt. You know what I mean? Sure. It's one of those movies that when you watch it, you understand the classic elements to it. But it's also one of these things, like, if I describe the plot of this movie to you, you're gonna be like, what are you talking about? A little Shape of Water esque, actually, where it's just like, on paper, this is bizarre. But then you watch it.

[B]

I'd be like, go back to Julia Ormond in a hospital.

[A]

By the way, Fight Club did get one Oscar nominee for our favorite category. Sound of It.

[D]

Sound, yeah. Fincher was good for like one craft nomination. For like, I think seven got one craft nomination and probably art direction or something. Alien 3 got a visual effect. Sounds something like that nomination.

[C]

So two part question one, how much of these sort of catch up nominations do you think are attributed to people feeling like they got snubbed for their last movie? And I guess, how do these movies get snubbed in the first place, are people just not watching them?

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

Do voters actually watch all the movies?

[A]

Well, no, but it's also like, I don't know, like, you look at like, Chloe Zhao, right. Like, the writer was never going to get a Best Picture nomination.

[D]

No stars.

[A]

Yeah, it was.

[B]

But it's her best film.

[A]

It's her best film today. And it's like a sad.

[B]

Eternals.

[A]

Yeah. A masterpiece. The short of Eternals, of course, the greatest film she's ever made.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you have, you know, like that film where. Yeah, there's no stars. It's. It's all, you know, like, people who are not professional actors. And it was like this small film and it. That would, like, lived on the festival circuit and then the art house circuit. You know, it's not even that these movies are getting snubbed. They just never entered into the conversation to begin with.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I think the people who do see them are like, well, this is someone to pay attention to.

[D]

And then I think a few years later, then you've had enough people tell you, did you see that movie the Rider from last year? It was really good. And this, it snowballs a little bit. The. The attention snowballs and the prestige snowballs.

[B]

And more and more people want to seem in the know because, like, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying that I am just like, so, you know, supernaturally aware of all filmmakers in any stage of their career, but having met a lot of these people at like, let's say out in LA who are a bit older than me, sort of like mid to late career, they are shockingly incurious about, like, the world of film.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, they know who they know they like what they like. And once in a while they will pat themselves on the back for, quote, unquot, discovering someone. Yeah. And I think that Nomadland, they're like, well, look, I mean, I found this great new. And it's like, well, but she did have this other movie that is kind of why, you know about her. But you don't know that. That's why, you know.

[D]

Well, and this is why something like the Golden Globes, which on its face mean nothing of value because the people who vote for it have no place within, like the, like, Hollywood, like the industry. But in attention economy terms, it's incredibly valuable because if you are making somebody with a, you know, we used to say a stack of screeners. Now it's, you know, an inbox full of screeners or whatever, give their attention enough to watch your movie. That's the. Sometimes the best you can do.

[B]

So. Yeah, the problem that I have with this, it's not always, but sometimes is that the film that finally gets this filmmaker that kind of awards attention, which is not, you know, necessary to their career, but it helps. Helps is often, I think, a lesser effort.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, not always. Like, I think that, like, one example we talked about before we recorded was like, I mean, I love Poke nights, which was PTA's second film.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

And that did get Oscar attention for

[D]

sure, but in that limited sort of like, we're not gonna get you a Best Picture.

[B]

Right, Exactly. And then it would took like a big American epic to In Their Worldly Blood a couple years later, like, or actually almost a decade later.

[D]

Novelist stick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And. And I. That's. That's an incredible movie, but, like, I don't like it as I like Boogie Nights, but I don't know, I think also, like.

[A]

Like, a lot of these films, they. They feel edgier. They feel more disreputable in terms of, like, what they. They do or what they're like, their tone. And so, like, I mean, the Oscars now feel more open to things like that. But I feel like, especially for that, not even that long ago. Yeah. You would do, like, Danny Boyle, you know, where you're like, what is a Danny Boyle film that gets in. It is not the films that we think of. These enormously influential films.

[D]

Shallow Graves, not happening.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But some dog millionaire.

[B]

Yeah. Edgy film. I don't know what you're talking about,

[A]

but, yeah, there's a kid in poop, but yeah. You know, it's like when someone then shapes up and makes a movie that feels Oscar y. Oftentimes they put a suit on. Right. Yeah, they. They shaved. You know, they. They comb their hair. And here they are presenting themselves to their peers to be.

[D]

And sometimes there's an agree. Degree of, like, meeting in the middle. I feel like the Coen brothers had a little bit of that where like. Like Fargo sort of met the Oscar voters halfway. It was still really idiosyncratic. The comedy was very sort of particular, but in a post Pulp Fiction kind of a world. The Academy was moving towards stuff, but it wasn't. So it wasn't the Hudsucker Proxy.

[B]

Right.

[D]

It wasn't like the kind of Coen's movie that people are like, I don't know what they're doing with this thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So. And then you get something like no

[B]

country, which is then combining like Western tropes that they know and like, but also this Cohen kind of edge and perspective.

[D]

Yeah. Really prestige. Really.

[B]

I mean, like, look, Spielberg had to work for years before the Academy was, like, really took him, quote, unquote, seriously as a best director.

[D]

Mercilessly snubbed for fellini back in 75.

[B]

Right, right. And, like. And you see, like, you know, Martin Scorsese winning for the Departed, which is a fun movie, but you could kind of feel that year, the Academy being like. So we just looked back at the records. We pro. We definitely should have given this to you earlier. Sorry about this. Here you go. Here's also, while you're at it, here's

[D]

actors, I think, get the oops, we're sorry about that award much more often than directors. I think with directors, it's a little bit more complicated than that. There are more sort of elements at play. But, yeah, it definitely does happen. Although Scorsese had, like, multiple years of, like, well, they're gonna give it to him for gangs in New York. Cause they didn't give it to him for Raging Bull. And, like, that didn't happen. And then the next time, it was like, but the Aviator, it's so much up their alley and that they didn't.

[B]

For them, kind of a bad idea. Hollywood, in part. Yeah.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

David.

[C]

Yep.

[E]

You and I have a lot of shared interests.

[C]

Sure.

[E]

Common interest film, dumb movies, comedy podcasts, life, New York City, bagels, sandwiches.

[F]

These are all true sleep.

[B]

Oh, I love sleep so much.

[E]

Sleep rules. So it is kind of wild how sleep is constantly underrated. I don't think people give it enough credit.

[F]

And it gets credit.

[B]

And nonetheless, even when it's bad, it's good.

[A]

Well, I don't know.

[F]

I don't think anything could really change how I sleep, though. Like, I don't have any problem.

[A]

What? Wrong.

[F]

What product could change my nights?

[B]

Lisa.

[E]

Lisa can change your nights. You switch to a Lisa mattress.

[D]

Griffin. What?

[F]

I mean, it's just so true.

[E]

It's true.

[F]

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[E]

You are?

[F]

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[E]

over a big honkin mattress?

[F]

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[E]

You're a king.

[F]

I'm getting a bigger bed. My kids sometimes will pile into it. I need this much. I need as much square footage as possible on this sucker.

[E]

Yeah, you need hop on pop space.

[F]

I do. And so I got a Lisa. A mattress from Lisa that is my My favorite place to be. It is my favorite. I say this so David.

[E]

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[F]

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[E]

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[F]

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[E]

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[F]

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[B]

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[E]

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[F]

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[C]

Mm.

[F]

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[A]

Yeah.

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[E]

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[E]

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[F]

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[E]

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[F]

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[E]

And David, just because we invoked President's Day in this ad read, I do think we need to show our support for our president. Rolt Ross, the Red Hulk.

[F]

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[B]

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[E]

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[B]

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[E]

A mattress fit for a roll.

[B]

I mean, with Trier, you know, obviously he's different. Very different kind of filmmaker. He did not have a ton of American attention until very recently.

[F]

Right.

[B]

But he had made these two great films, Reprise and Oslo. 31st August that you know, were in the festival circuits in the late aughts and early 2000 and tens. And you know, the Manola Darguses of the world were like super onto him and into him, you know. I think that her lovely long quote is at the top of the reprise, like DVD or poster or something. And then he took this weird detour where he made a movie called Loud. He went English language, which is something that you always, you know, is always risky for a non American or non English language director to do. Like, okay, I'm gonna cast stars now. I mean one of them was Isabella Perro, who's not in a native English, but that movie with. It's her, I think Gabriel Byrne, Jesse Eisenberg. That is a stinker of a movie.

[A]

It is bad.

[D]

That was one of those like, I mean not legendarily but like for me that was at, I believe it was at Tiff that year. And I remember people being like, don't see that.

[B]

Yeah, because it had premiered at Cannes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was. And I saw it there because I, I'll admit at the time I had not seen reprise or Oslo 31 August. But people loved like the Allison of the world. Like, oh no, he's good, you should go see that. And then, and then I was mad.

[D]

It was like Suburbicon levels of bad festival.

[A]

And it was also like, I, you know, sometimes when you something like that happens, you're like, oh, was this like. It was like a work for hire or something like that or is like, you know, working off a script from someone else. But no, like he co wrote that with Es, his like collaborator collaborator who's like worked on like almost every film with him. And you're like, okay, so can't even be like, oh, that wasn't his fault, really.

[B]

No, it wasn't. Like it wasn't a page gig. I mean, maybe it paid a little more. And then he made Thelma, which is this very strange sort of supernatural lake creature, sexual allegory kind of movie that

[A]

feels totally ya ish. Right? Like, and I guess you could maybe

[B]

see him trying to like establish himself more on a marketable standpoint or an international standpoint, which is like, you know, he's got to pay the bills, you know, So I guess I get that. But it's just so interesting that after that he's then like, this is not working. Let me go back to Anders Danielson Lee, who is the star of his, you know, first two films. Let's go back to Oslo, like fully yeah. And just start talking about life again. And then it's worked so brilliantly.

[A]

And Renata Ryan was in Oslo August 31, you know, and he made her the lead of Worst Person in the World. And that really also introduced her. Like, that was her international breakout film. You know, it was the first time a lot of kind of were like, oh, she's amazing.

[C]

I have not seen any of his previous films, but you talking about how he made an English language movie that maybe didn't work. There's a lot of discussion in this movie about whether the movie is gonna be in English and, like, is it

[A]

gonna be on Netflix? And it's.

[C]

Are you? And because this movie is, I guess, more about the process of making a movie, do you feel like there's a lot of his experience making about making films in this movie?

[A]

I would guess so. I mean, it is in particular about the idea of, you know, he's trying to make essentially like, a Scandinavian art film. Right. Like, he's like this revered Swedish filmmaker, Stellan Skarsgrd's character, and has this reputation that gets him invited to festivals. But, yeah, like, you know, how does this Hollywood star, played by Elle Fanning, like, notice him? It's because she happens to see him getting this tribute at a festival.

[B]

She's at the Deauville American Film Festival, which is a particular kind of film fest that she would be at.

[A]

And then she's, like, so moved by this screening, you know, but. Yeah.

[D]

That she defies Cat Cohen to go.

[A]

Exactly. From her publicist team. Yeah.

[B]

It's like, you know, to me, more doing Passion of Mind. Like, you know, like, there's a long history of actors being like, I'm gonna seek out this, like, Euro director and they're gonna really transform me.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that partly that's the metatextualness of, like, Trier doing this story. I mean, you know, Skarsgrd's character is significantly older than Trier is, but, like, is like, maybe him resigning a little bit to, like, I think I'm good in this lane. Like, I'm probably not gonna skip across the Atlantic and become, you know, Jan de Bont. I mean, I don't think he wanted to become that, but you know what I mean? Like a European director who then goes and makes, like, a fortune in Hollywood. He's like, I'm good here and I can kind of work not necessarily in or out of one system, but kind of between the systems.

[C]

All right, we're gonna talk more specific plot points and spoilers for sentimental value. If you want to skip that, you can fast forward 19 minutes.

[A]

And I think it is a bit about the kind of, like, thrill, but the terror of being like, oh, you know, you have this major star on board. Does she actually fit into your movie? You know, like, in ways that make sense, you know, even if she's incredibly game, you know, she really wants to do it. Like, the vision that you actually have, like, can you compromise it in ways that, you know, make a film that you still think is your film? And I think, yeah, in really delicate ways, you know, sentimental value is like, no.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Well, and it also. There's a thread about sort of authenticity and how that matters for this movie that he's trying to make, where he wrote the movie for his daughter. She won't do it. So Elle Fanning's character, Rachel, is so interested in him and so interested in making this movie, and yet he. He can't help sort of, like, he has her dye her hair the same color as his daughter, and, like, everybody sort of sees what's going on, and it's all. None of it feels very manipulative or sinister. It's not like a Vertigo kind of a thing. But Elle Fanning's character ultimately is like, I can't do this movie. I don't feel like I'm right for this movie, and, you know, that I'm not right for this movie. We all sort of, like, can see this. And ultimately it ends up working with the daughter. And I think I kept going back to, like, why is, you know, what's the title mean? Sentimental value. And this idea that, like, sentiment sometimes can work, you know, against something, and sometimes it can, you know, sort of work in its favor. And I like the way the movie does not treat Elle Fanning's character as this, like, stereotypical actress while also letting you in on the fact that, like, you know, she's not, like, the best actress. She's not, like, the most, you know, intelligent or intuitive, but she tries and she takes her craft seriously, and it's

[B]

all right, you know, and that's ultimately, I think, what he respects, you know?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And maybe he's being a little hyperbolic when he's like, she's the best actress of her generation, but, like, he sees something in her.

[D]

Yeah, I was white knuckling it the first time I saw this movie, being like, don't have them sleep together. Don't have them sleep together.

[B]

Yeah. That's luckily not a direction I think Trier would go in, at least if.

[F]

Or.

[B]

And if he did it would be done in an interesting sort of sensitive way.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Was she expected to get nominated for this?

[B]

Elle?

[A]

Yeah, I think she was in the mix. Like, it wasn't a huge snub, especially

[B]

because people felt she got a little bit snubbed from a complete unknown. Last year, Monica Barbaro got the supporting nomination for that movie instead. So I think that Elle was kind of like. She was. They were like, don't leave the building yet. Let's just see how this year goes.

[A]

And I mean, this isn't actually a tricky movie, I think kind of campaigning wise. Right. Because I don't know, like, as much as I would say if I were to pick one lead, and I don't know that you can. You can say there's maybe not one true lead in this movie, but I would say it's Stellan's character. But I think, like, on second viewing that I felt like it was, you know, but like, you know, they all share time. Like, Inga gets slightly less, but still has her own kind of, like, storyline there.

[B]

And it builds. She gets more as towards the end. Yeah.

[A]

But I mean, that can make it really tricky to build an Oscar narrative, right?

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You have, like, different. And instead, like, this film did quite well by that. Yeah. I do think, like, to bring this back around to the idea of, like, movies about movies. Unlike J. Kelly, if they had ever made J. Kelly. You know, this is a movie where it is very. Takes craft very seriously. It is also, like, look at how annoying actors can be. Like, I love the scene with Renata in the beginning having what is apparently like a. A regular burst of stage fright that she has every time that involves them having to physically restrain her and, like, push her on stage, at which point she gives a great performance. But, you know, it is very much like, about. Like, look at how difficult and like, kind of abrasive and like sometimes like, painful. Like, like trying to channel your truest self into your work or artistic work can be. Especially when it comes to all of the ways you are, are worse at communicating those things in person to, like, your loved ones.

[C]

And the movie never stacks the deck against any of the characters. Everyone is. She's difficult, but also very sensitive and a good actor. And Skarsgrd's character, similarly, is like, a very difficult person. But the scenes where he is protecting Elle Fanning's character from the press and stuff are actually.

[D]

Actually kind of moving that junket guy

[B]

right out of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you see, I mean, this film is really anti Press, which I don't like. We.

[A]

We should be celebrated. Yeah. I mean, I think the conversation. The. The conversation where he, like, his character and Renata's character are just, like, riling. He's, like, riling her up so much also, where he is trying to kind of express that he's concerned about her, but instead is just, like, coming across as, like, criticizing all of her life choices.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And she also just takes it all personally immediately, I think is such a great. Like, it sums up, like, these years of, like, pain and miscommunication so perfectly in, like, a very small scene. And I think scenes like that are one of the reasons that this film has done so well in terms of, like, acting.

[B]

Yeah. And Inga representing, like, I don't know, maybe I'm speaking from personal experience. Being the sibling who has issues with parents, but not the issues that the other sibling has where it's like, I know that, like, my sister and my mom, for years it was like, whoa, they just cannot get along. Like, and they're fine now, but, like. But, like, in those rough teenage years, and I was the one, the pacifier or whatever, and, like, kind of trying to, like, maintain the household harmony and. And are you the older or younger? I'm the younger one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Which is.

[A]

If there were a middle. It's a classic middle child thing. But also, like, it falls to the younger, I think, in Two Siblings.

[B]

But what I think that. That Inga's character also knows and sees is, like, after that kind of bickering moment, you know, the other two go out and smoke cigarettes and kind of, like, conspiratorially smile at each other. And it's a lot like that scene in the Fabelmans where the creepy Uncle Judd Hirsch comes and has this weird conversation with Sammy Fabelman where he's like, they don't get it. Like, we are artists, and it's gonna be painful for the rest of your life, and you're gonna have to alienate your family if you wanna choose this artist. And I think that Skarsgrd's character and Reinspa's character understand that in each other, even if they can't get along. And in another way, the other person in that family unit is on the outside, even though she gets along with everybody.

[A]

Right.

[D]

Well, and the other thing that I thought watching it this time, and this sort of goes to my, like, you know, this would appeal to boomers, is this idea that this screenplay, finally, Inga's character says to Nora is just, like, just read. Just Read it. You know, you don't have to do the movie, but just read it, because I think this is about you, and I think this is ultimately, you know, him finally apologizing to you through this script.

[B]

And it's not about his mom. It's about you.

[D]

But he still will throughout the movie, even when given, like, ample opportunity, just refuses to give her an inch. Every time she calls him on the carpet for not being there for them, he has this defensive. Like, everybody's piling up on dad or whatever. And it has this very thing of just like, I can only apologize to you in a way that feels like, you know, this one particular way. Do not ask me to actually say the words, I am sorry, but I will, you know, do this. And that, to me, felt like every Oscar voter whose kids have a problem with them and they don't want to admit anything, but, like. But can't you see that through my work?

[A]

Sure. It's really romantic, right? That idea of being, like, finally being seen. Like, I, like, maybe a failure in so many personal ways. But, like, in my art, I can, like, communicate something, like, more true than I ever could in, like.

[B]

Does Christopher Nolan's daughter eventually see Interstellar and say, I guess this is an apology for missing all of my school plays?

[C]

You know, supposedly J. Kelly is also about this.

[D]

Allegedly, or was supposed to be about this.

[B]

The trades were reporting that, but then it obviously never got made.

[D]

It is amazing that they both have, like, two daughters. Like, they're so structurally, like, they're begging to be compared. And it just turned out so. Nine nominations for one.

[B]

And what I think that that sentimental value does better than a lot of those director apologizes movies, which. And there are a lot of them. Writer apologizes, you know, whatever. Is that it? Like you said, it gives equal weight to everybody. It understands where everyone kind of fits in this ecosystem. And I think it also has something really beautiful in the way that it is kind of almost resigned to kind of, like, the way that. That generations tumble through time. You know, one of the sort of closing, sort of turns in the plot of the movie is that, like, oh, another generation's getting into this. You know, the grandson is gonna be in the movie, and this never ends. And, like, did being in the movie harm Agnes so much? No, not necessarily. But it did change the course of her life pretty irrevocably.

[A]

And it was like, an example of, like, this pain at the heart of her relationship with her father, which is, like, when she was doing the thing he cared about, like, all of his attention. And as soon as she was not and she was just a regular person again, that the light was not on her anymore.

[B]

And yet something in her, as we all do maybe, you know, with a fair amount of hopefulness or foolishness, is like, it'll be different the next time. It'll be different for him because I'm around. I can make sure this doesn't hap what happens. You know, I'll always love him, even when he's not starring in my dad's movie or whatever. But you also know that there's a gamble there. There's definitely risk there. And I think that what the movie says about, like, how much you can change family trajectory and how much you kind of have to deal with what is innate and almost kind of inevitable, I think is really, really well done.

[D]

I also wonder if part of it is the fact that this is ultimately not Joachim Trier telling his own story.

[B]

Yeah. So Trier has two kids who are relatively young, I believe, and so maybe he's sort of almost anticipating what he's

[A]

going to visit upon them.

[D]

There's still enough of a remove.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think he said he, like, he was. He had become a father when he started writing the movie, but then. And then, like, learned his second child along the way, and the same kind of spacing as the two women. Grown women.

[D]

Right.

[B]

I'm going to say, like, I. And, look, he's not the only one doing this, but I really do respect a filmmaker sort of on the younger side of things. I mean, he's what, like, late 40s, early 50s, 51. I opened on the younger side, who is, like, he's writing out, like, outside of immediate lived experience, which is, like, kind of increasingly rare. Like, I feel like everything in this sort of auteur era, it's like, why is that horror movie this? Well, because my mom got sick. And it's like, okay, that's a perfectly valid thing to make a movie about. But, like, what if you just came up with a story that had nothing

[D]

to do with poor Ari Aster's real mother is getting dragged through the mud with everybody.

[B]

Oh, the poet who lives in Westchester who sounds terrifying. Yeah. You know, there is sentiment, as the film's title would suggest, but I think there is also a really respectable and interesting amount of darkness. Like, watching it for a second time, I was like, oh, this is a haunted house movie. You know, this is about a movie about people contending with a spirit or several spirits that are, like, filling this space and infecting their lives and Elle Fanning is this kind of like Final Girl esque person who shows up and is like, oh, this house is fucked up. That stool, like, which she thinks was used for this terrible, you know, and. And I think that it's that. That maybe I have issues with the very end of the movie where there's this knowing look exchange between father and daughter. And it feels a bit like on the nose, but for the most part he really resists.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Getting anything sort of sappy in there at all.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I. I think that is what makes this movie feel less maybe like gooey than. Yeah, like, you know, movies that are very, like, have this very kind of wet eyed idea about the process of making movies or something like that. Like, it is very much like the family drama comes first, you know, like the kind of filmmaking is the mechanism through which the family drama continues. But also it is like, it is about like a work. Right. Like workplace kind of like issues in a lot of ways to be like,

[D]

can you work with them? The fact that it ends with them on set rather than filming in the house also feels significant.

[A]

Well, and also the house is gone. Right.

[B]

But the house has been renovated. And I think that that's such a crucial little bit of footage in that the very end of that movie. It's never commented on, but it's like, oh, look at all the new modern trappings, the fancy stove and all that. This house is now changed and it's gonna be someone else's. And we have left the building. We have then instead safely recreated our version of the house in an environment that we can control.

[C]

And there's a crack in the foundation which is at the very beginning. And I sort of wonder at the end, by selling the house house, are they repairing that crack or are they

[A]

passing it on to someone else? I do appreciate that the remodel is like your standard, like bland, colorless. It's just like, oh, it's the regular remodel. They do this in Norway as well. I do. I will say my favorite parts of this film are the bursts. And this is like very much like brings you back to Trier's earlier films. Like the bursts of flashbacks into the house, like the past, you know, like from when. When the women were children and then from previous generations. Like the. The part that just like runs through, you know, from like Gustav's childhood into like the aunt inheriting the house, like the kind of lesbian aunt when it was not acknowledged.

[D]

And then like into throwing parties at the house.

[A]

Yeah. Like passed on and on and this kind of, like, the ways in which there's, like, enormous bursts of history that are like, just. I love his. Like, his montages of those, and there's this kind of energy to them that I wish some other parts of the film had.

[B]

Yeah, that's fair. I think it's fun to watch him be like, oh, he's really going for it. He's gonna do the house up in period detail, and he's gonna have actors in period costumes. Like, even if it's only for 20 seconds of footage, like, I think that's cool.

[A]

And, I mean, it reminded me of a film that I actually liked more than this. This year, though, it didn't go anywhere. Sound of Falling, which was like the German submission for international film, which. It didn't get nominated.

[B]

It was too much of a slapstick comedy, I think. It was just hilarity all over the place.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You know, no sound nomination for a movie about the sound of falling.

[B]

There's a lot of good sound in that movie.

[A]

There is. So, like, this is a. It's a German film that takes place entirely on this one kind of farmhouse over four generations. So, like, basically covering a century and skipping between these four generations and, like, these different four families. Yeah. Gets into some really dark territory also, like, drops you in and really does not extend a hand to give you any guidance for a long time.

[B]

It's alienating. Yeah, it is.

[A]

It's a tougher sit, certainly, though I thought it was incredible. But, like, that is a film that is entirely. Like, the axis of the film is this physical space, is this building. And I feel like the parts of Sentimental Value that did that, I loved.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that the device of having characters listen through the little. The stove.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And the first time we see Nora telling her nephew about. And she's just showing it to him, and then she puts her ear to it, and then all of a sudden, she hears her father's voice, and she didn't know he was gonna be there. And it's like. And you can almost see her calculating, like, is that a ghost? Like, what's going on? Am I hallucinating? And then to have that come back where it's another. A relative listening as her mother is sort of being taken away, you know? Like, I think that, yeah, the house stuff is really interesting. And the movie, I think, does sag a little bit when it leaves the house. You know, there are great moments, but I think that the stuff with Anders Danielson Leigh is a little bit more schem. Like, oh, he's left his wife, but now he doesn't want to be with me. Like, that's a little bit.

[D]

Feels a little leftover from Worst Person in the World.

[B]

Agrees a little bit too.

[D]

Even though I love seeing Anders anytime he's in a movie.

[B]

Oh, yeah, he's incredible.

[A]

And also a doctor.

[B]

Yeah, he's also a trained doctor. Yeah. You should really watch Oslo, 31 August and reprise because he's very handsome in them and very good in them.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I was bummed it didn't get a production design nomination for as much as cool as I thought the house was.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting that it got that editing nomination, which the. The editing is interesting and good, but it's like, okay, if you're gonna go that deep on this movie, then let's keep going. You know, cinematography and production design.

[D]

Sure, yeah.

[C]

Do we know if it's a real house? Can we visit?

[B]

That's a great question. I'm assuming that the. At least the exterior would be real. Maybe it's a house he's walked by in Oslo and is like, I wanna make a movie about that house. I don't know. Or maybe they built the whole thing. I genuinely don't know.

[A]

Yeah, I have no idea either.

[B]

So at the end of this movie, when they're on the set, Trier is careful to show this. The old cinematographer sitting to Gustav's left.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are we to take that? That means he dropped the Netflix, and so he was able to hire who he wanted to hire. So we think the Netflix has been eschewed. Right. Yeah, it's been a return to.

[D]

Yeah. The fact that he got to make the movie he wanted to make. His daughter's in the role and. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So Netflix probably left with Rachel.

[A]

Yeah. I would. Yeah.

[C]

Isn't the presumption that he sold the house in order to finance the film?

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Yeah. They never say it. Right. That would make sense, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, do we think that she. She did hang herself at the end of this movie within a movie. Oh, like in the movie when she shuts the door.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know, though. I think they're maybe trying to, like, hear the past a little bit there. Like, oh, maybe I'm wrong.

[A]

I feel like the. Maybe it does.

[B]

You don't hear the chair fall.

[A]

Yeah. But I also felt like. Like it would make sense for her reenacting it to also then feel like it's closing the door on, like, her own depression. Right. And her own kind of, like, ideation that she's like struggled with. So. So that would make sense as a kind of exorcism of sorts. Reenact it.

[D]

To my embarrassment that. That fooled me. That scene where they pull out and it's just like, oh, they're filming a scene. I was just like, you dummy. Of course they're filming a scene. You know what I mean?

[B]

It's a very blue sky outside those windows.

[D]

Yeah, I'm like, she was babysitting the kid.

[B]

What are you talking about?

[F]

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[D]

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[F]

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[A]

This, as we said, it's a movie we all like a lot though, like not our favorite of his movies. But it is in a particularly difficult race for international film this year. I would say, you know, it's going up against. It was Just an Accident, the first film that Jeff R. Panahi was able to make since a ban on filmmaking was lifted, even though he was making films the whole time kind of in secret. The Secret Agent, which we talked about in the last episode and which is

[B]

gaining tons of momentum.

[A]

Tons of momentum. And it just like feels like this just incredible, like enormous swing of a film. Then you've got Seurat, this kind of like very jagged, interesting movie that feels like it speaks to this moment of like things like the kind of like, like, like, like structures that we previously saw as kind of like stable crumbling around us in the background. And then the voice of Hindra Job, which is, you know, has this like kind of like enormously heartbreaking story that it is reenacting and that uses the real audio from. From the death of this child.

[B]

Yeah, I mean Sentimental is the only non political. I mean you could make. There are. There are politics in that movie for sure, but it's, you know, the other

[A]

significantly more minor scale than these others.

[B]

And it's the movie as its awards sort of positioning is strange. I mean because it did, you know, it played very well at Cannes. It won the Grand Prix, I believe, which is second prize or third prize.

[D]

Second.

[B]

And so it had like great momentum coming out of that and everyone. And I actually wasn't even that sold, but I was there with a former colleague who's a big, like Oscar predictor. And he was like, oh, yeah, that's a lock for these categories. And I was like, really, though? I mean, I don't know, that seems far fetched. But he was right, it turns out. But I think it hasn't quite. Despite overperforming arguably and nominations, I think it hasn't held on to that momentum or that sort of heat because I think what you pointed out just now, Alison, it's like it doesn't have that extra hook of urgency, but it also

[A]

really overperformed at the Oscars in terms of nominations.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's possible that it will then go on to not win anything, but I was surprised by how many, how many nominations it got.

[B]

There was a time when it was like, oh, Skarsgrd is winning. It's a career. It's for both a great performance in one movie, but also a career resurrected

[D]

at the Globes a little bit. Now we're like, we're still now.

[B]

And then the BAFTAs where I thought that's where he would repeat if he was going to repeat in the lead up to Oscars. It didn't go his way. And I was like, oh, I guess maybe he doesn't have this sewn up. And what Kyle Buchanan, our friend and colleague has been saying for months now is like, no, no, no, don't pay attention to what's happening before the Oscars. Sean Penn is winning that Oscars.

[D]

The extreme degree of confidence Kyle has in that is both worth listening to and also, love you, Kyle has me rooting against that so hard because I'm just like, you're so confident and I just need it to be wrong.

[B]

Do you have any thoughts, Joe, on whether or not there would have been any wisdom in running Stellan in lead?

[D]

I mean, it would have been more honest, I think. And I sort of felt the same way about Paul Mescal, who ended up not getting nominated even for supporting. Oftentimes this is the, it's a, you know, it's a strategic calculus. Right. You're keeping them out of best Actor in part because Best actor tends to be filled with often bigger stars. And certainly Stellan Skarsgrd has been, you know, a character actor throughout his career and whatever. But it's also performances where, you know, Michael B. Jordan is playing twins, the two twin leads of the movie. Timothee Chalamet is playing Marty Mauser in Marty Supreme. He's the sole focus of that movie. DiCaprio's a little bit more has to sort of like, share the spotlight a little bit more. But like Wagner, Mora, Ethan Hawke, like, it's as much about. It's as much about being the focus of your movie. I think every time this is. Studios seem to think they can get away with it when. And it's like, yeah, but the movie's not really just about them. It's about, you know, it's Jesse Buckley's story, It's Renata Rienzva's story. They're the leads. There's this, you know, this fallacy that drives me crazy when people are just like, you know, but there's only one lead of the movie. It's like, no, there are movies with two leads. There are often.

[B]

There are movies with four leads.

[D]

There are movies with zero leads. Sometimes. You know what I mean?

[B]

Jay Kelly. Because they never made it.

[D]

They never made it.

[C]

Sometimes New York is.

[D]

That's your main. And you know what?

[B]

Like Donald Sutherland, New York has never been nominated,

[D]

nor has Tiffany, New York, Pollard. And let's address that.

[B]

Not yet.

[D]

But I think that's sort of what you're getting in the case with if you put Stellan in lead. It would have been very, very difficult, I think, for him to be as impressive, you know, and to stand out to voters for as much as I think it's a really great performance. I think if you're looking at it strategically, then you're thinking, well, in a supporting category, then you're putting him up against other people who are sharing their movie spotlight a little bit more.

[B]

And it would have meant no Ethan Hawke, presumably.

[D]

Right. Which. And I'm so glad that that happened.

[B]

That's a nice combination. Although, I don't know, I kind of think this is a bit of a digression, but I kind of. I was thinking about it the other day. I was like, maybe it was baffle related. I think that DiCaprio might be in fifth position. Position. I think he might be the weakest.

[D]

Definitely. A lot of people are still framing this as like, Timmy versus.

[B]

I don't see it that way at all.

[D]

It hasn't been that way. If ever. It hasn't been that way.

[A]

He was never a favorite. Yeah. And yeah, now it feels to me much more like.

[B]

Like, I think, yeah, Timmy and Jordan.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Probably Ethan. And then, yeah, I would. I would say Leos, because that's the other thing is, like, they're given so many other things to one battle after another. They're not going to go out of their way to give Leo a second Oscar when there are Other more attractive narratives or performances.

[A]

And also that role is kind of deliberately this diminished non heroic. That's the point of that role is that he's this kind of fool running around trying to help and not actually accomplish.

[D]

Designed to be more appealing to critics. Types like us who look at that and be like, look at what he's doing playing a non dynamic character and stuff like that. This awards voters just don't operate along those lines.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So do you think having Elle in this movie helps everyone else? Like if you're making a foreign film, it's probably easier to get attention if you have a big American star in it.

[B]

Yeah, I think it for sure helps. I mean it's definitely. I mean Trier is a lock to direct the next Predator movie with Elle.

[D]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Which is exciting.

[A]

Yeah. Everyone loves that Predator.

[B]

It's really good.

[A]

It is good.

[B]

It is a queer ya about are you're correct. A young gay alien finding the strength female.

[D]

Look who else plays twins in that movie? Al Fanning.

[B]

You know who loved when I said that in my THR review is all the men on Twitter. I was going to say they really enjoyed that take on their beloved Predator. But no, I think to your. I mean I think that at something like can after Worst Person in the World, Trier had no problem getting attention there. But having El Fanny in and Stellan Skarsgarden, it like bumps it up that one extra level where it's not just winning awards. It can, but then it has like a hope of a life past, you know, that festival.

[D]

Well, and one thing I wanted to mention about the international feature race too is it's so interesting in part because the academy has become more international and thus the Best Picture race overlaps so much now with international feature where like you, you know, multiple international movies are now nominated for best Picture. And so those movies, their buzz in their story sort of evolves over the course of the season in a lot more interesting ways. Whereas like you remember like the SAG nominations happened and none of the international movies got anything from there. And with the DGA and PGA too, I feel like. Right. Like it was a thing like what's the problem?

[B]

Well, they're not in our union, so I mean some of them probably are. Right.

[D]

But I think. And so that then plays into a Best Picture nominee like Sentimental Value and like the Secret Agent in ways that like that wouldn't happen in the past when you didn't have any international movies. And so the narrative with Sentimental Value and it was just an accident is also really interesting, because Sentimental Value seemed like the favorite going into Cannes or one of the favorites to take the Palm. And I feel it was just an accident, kind of leapfrogged it there. And they've been sort of. They were sort of seen to be jostling with each other for a little bit.

[B]

There are some thoughts about. I mean, I think this is unfair. It was just an accident because that's a brilliant movie. But, like, there were some thoughts on the ground at Cannes at the, like, closing night party where. When we weren't staring at Oliver Lachey, the director of Serac, staring up craning your neck. But no, Juliette Binoche was the president of the jury last year, and she had worked with Kiarostami, who is a close colleague of Panahi's. And she knew Panahi for a long time, was really close with him, or to some extent that they were like, oh, well, if his movie was even halfway decent, there was no chance that anything else would win. I think that's probably unfair because the movie is really good. But I think it was also the vibe at Cannes this year. And maybe it was Binoche kind of leading that charge was. Was like, we're not giving top prize to something that does not respond to the political times that we're. And sentimental value does not do that. Which is fine. A movie doesn't have to do that. Neither does Hamnet, whatever. But, like. But yeah, that was kind of the.

[A]

I mean, I. When Worst Person in the World was out. I definitely remember times on Twitter where I got the feeling from, like, you know. Yeah. You know, when you discover that someone halfway across the world has followed your career long enough to hate you really passionately and in, like, very specific ways, like, had, like, responded to something he said. But, like, describing Worst person in the world and, like, triggers films in general as, like, white person problems. And I'm like, sure. Certainly on a global sense, they absolutely are about white person problems. I mean, I was thinking about that with the Dreams trilogy, you know, which is also. From. Which are lovely, lovely films also set in Oslo. We were like, oh, these films are able. These characters are able to embark on these, like, very delicate explorations about their identities and sexuality and their gender and about, like, what they're looking for in terms of romance, in part because they seem to have, like, a really solid,

[B]

you know, stable, beautiful stained wood floors underneath them, health care, blah, blah, blah, all this other stuff.

[A]

One of them is like a chimney

[B]

sweep and seems to have a nice little life.

[A]

Incredible. Like, middle class Life off of. Yeah.

[B]

So maybe that's the subtle politics of these movies. They're like, see how it could.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like, look, you'll have all of this time to, like, then, you know, have a baroque encounter, like class with your daughter at revenge by casting an American star in the role she turned out,

[B]

or wistfully ride the ferry and flirt with a man. You know, it's just one of the other ones.

[A]

But I do wonder if that is something. I mean, like, this is. Yeah. A film that broke out into the larger, like, kind of like nominations pool. But, like, I do feel like in a year where it feels like there is a lot of urgency, even if the Berlin Film Festival and no one wanted to, you know, talk politics, including, you know. Yeah, but like, that. That there is a lot of pressure to be like, something that. That. Or to. To award something that feels like it has some sense of urgency, especially because,

[B]

like, last year, you can certainly. There. There are definitely politics in an aura, for sure, but, like, that also is a really fun time. You know, it's. It's lighter than some other things. You know, maybe they were just like, okay, now this year, though, with everything. Like, we need to go this direction instead. Which is kind of why I was holding on to the Skarsgrd thing as being like, well, but that sort of can exist outside of that concern, and he can just win for a great career. And he was so good on andor recently, and he's great in this movie and people like him, and he's, you know, basically sired the next generation of actors, you know, like, so, like, he's contributing to the economy in that way. Um, but I just. I don't know. I just don't feel it right now. Even the gold. The Globe thing felt very like, Globe's gonna Globe. And I just. The BAFTA thing, I was like, that's where I really thought he was gonna get it there.

[A]

But, yeah, all of the acting categories feel very unsettled now.

[D]

Three of the four, I think Jesse's. Yeah, Jessie Buckley is still pretty, but even that one, she's been so locked in that one that it feels like. Well, we just, like, haven't talked about Best Actress kind of at all throughout the scene.

[B]

Right. What if something crazy happened? I mean, that would be something we

[D]

wouldn't know because, like, nobody's about talking. But, yeah, Supporting Actress, Supporting Actor and Best Actor all feel excitingly. My worry is that, like, the sag. Sorry, the actor Awards are going to happen. Genuflect when you say but. And Then, like, my worry is that, like, well, then whoever wins those is just gonna win the Oscars, and it's gonna seem, in retrospect, a lot more boring. And I hope that's not the case. I hope my, you know, my hope is that, like, well, you know, different people who's won everything else can win at, you know, at actor awards. And then all of a sudden, it's just like, well, we're going in there and, like, nobody has a precursor advantage. And that's kind of the dream for an awards nerd like me. I'm like, yes.

[B]

We were talking about this with our ep, Griffin Newman, and, like, he was saying, like, oh, it reminds me of the year that when Tilda Swinton ultimately won for Michael Clayton, like everyone else had won in a different award show, there's also the Marcia Gay Harden year to consider there. And that's exciting. You know, it's a thrill. In fact, I do think that, like, Inga and El probably will split that vote a little bit. I don't think they're in the front of the pack. I agree with that.

[D]

But, like, Winmi Masaku winning the BAFTA is really interesting to me. And Teyana Taylor, still, I would probably place her at the head of that pack, but I think those two and Amy Madigan are pulling votes and see how it shakes out.

[C]

Are these ranked choice?

[B]

Not for acting.

[D]

Not for acting. Just for best purpose.

[C]

So it's first past the post for acting.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they never will show us the numbers, even though that's the great witch of all.

[D]

They keep sending them envelopes full of money.

[B]

How close was blank?

[D]

They were like, you're not wealthy enough to sway us.

[B]

Well, someday we'll do a heist of the Academy museum and steal all that data.

[A]

Yeah. And be like, we don't want to know who's going to win the next Oscars. Jesse, give us the data.

[B]

We'll be really mean. And call up Glenn and Annette Benningen. Look, do you want to know how close we were? My proposal is because I have good news and bad news.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

My proposal is that we treat it like the Warren Commission reports. And just like after a certain number of years, this year gets declassified so we won't be able to find out anything that we remember from our lifetimes. But, like, the 1964 Oscars, now we can, right?

[B]

How close was Marsha Mason when she was right? Exactly. Those burning. All of those.

[D]

Peter o'. Tool.

[B]

And then when we're very old, they'll like, oh, Lang almost lost for Blue Sky.

[D]

Right. It's the tontine from the Simpsons. It's like the last remaining 1960 Best Actress nominee has finally died. We can reveal these stories so they have that data.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

Somewhere in a vault either at Price Waterhouse or in some academy office somewhere.

[B]

Unless there was some sort of suspicious fire before it was all digitalized.

[D]

The Watergate of the. Now I'm gonna write that movie. All right, there we go.

[A]

You know, we've talked about last time. We talked about the increasing kind of like international focus of the Oscars, but how much do you think the, like, I mean, the actors who got breakouts in international films and then have come and worked in English language films, like, we're seeing that a lot more too. I mean, like Wagner Moore, we talked about Lee Bang Hun in no Other Choice did not end up getting nominated. But, like, I feel like his visibility in a flash of like, mostly unfortunate Hollywood roles, you know, like, he. He was like a known commodity even for people who did not actually pay a lot of attention to South Korean cinema. And then like Renata, now Renata R. Has, like, started to make some of American films. She is not like, like dove full force into some. Like.

[B]

She's doing like, interesting kind of smaller things. Yeah.

[A]

But like things that people have seen. Right. Like, people have liked a different man. For instance.

[D]

I thought she was so good in that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And she's got some.

[A]

She's going to be in back rooms. The A24 movie being directed. Teenager, 20.

[B]

He's 20.

[A]

Sorry. Now he's 20.

[C]

Why?

[B]

Why are they doing that?

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

I mean, maybe this kid's brilliant, but like, I don't know.

[A]

Anyway, whatever.

[B]

Yes. Just going to be a dad. That'll get more attention.

[C]

Have some family guy like, gifts.

[A]

Just like that would be really good. Like, the jump scare at the end

[B]

is like the top of the screen is going to be like someone doing a playthrough of a video game. The bottom screen is going to be like, yeah, Family Guy, like they do on TikTok.

[A]

And then Renata's is just going to be acting over in the other corner.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And then she's going to. Yeah, keep saying go.

[D]

She's in one of my most anticipated movies coming up, which is Fjord. She's gonna be. She plays the Fjord in Fjord. No, her and Sebastian sand in the new Kristian Munjoo movie, the English Language.

[B]

That's assumed to be at Cannes, which would be interesting.

[D]

I think it's English language. I could be wrong about that. But it's certainly Christine Manju working with Hollywood folk for the first time.

[B]

You know, my hunch would be that Ryan's fuh. Who by the way, watching the movie. What a face. Like, as someone who has rosacea and my face often looks very flushed. I appreciate that. That is also true of Renata. I don't want to like make any comments about her appearance. I mean, she's gorgeous. But I was watching the movie again and I was like, yeah, same girl.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I look very red faced a lot of the time. Yeah, just that sort of placid but thoughtful. Like there's something so just fascinating to watch about her. I think that she will have a nice career, be it, you know, in the Euro art house. Maybe an occasional sort of dip into something Hollywood adjacent. Inge Ives daughter Lilias. Like, I hope the same for her. My hunch is that she'll probably do more Norwegian tv, theater, all that stuff. Like, everyone will be benefited by this. But unfortunately, the sort of global film economy seems to that is governed by the US sort of interest will like, in some senses will probably be like, we're gonna pick one or one of you every couple years. We're not gonna let you all in. Come on. Like, that's too much much. But yeah, and I think that Renata is that 1.

[D]

Renata RVA in a MIA Hansen love movie. What would you do to make that happen?

[B]

I mean, I would fund it. That's what I would do. I would. I would rob the Academy. I would rob the Academy museum. Sell that data. Yeah, that'd be great. She'd be perfect.

[C]

Before we go, I thought it would be funny to check in on the vulture.com Instagram account, which.

[B]

Oh, wait, no. Why, why are we doing that?

[D]

This is too funny.

[C]

First, for people who aren't, who haven't been following us from the beginning, our friends at Vulture, they are clipping video of the show and putting it on their Instagram and other social accounts. And for last week, they clipped us talking about Wagner Mora's wonderful performance in the Secret Agent. And what do you know, you're looking through the comments there and it's almost entirely in Portuguese.

[D]

I was going to say Brazilian flag.

[A]

Brazilian flag, Brazil film, Internet represents.

[B]

This is becoming like the new sort of like put the number, like put a listicle in your headline and. Or whatever, and you're going to get traffic. It's like just the last two years,

[D]

you know, you on Oscar nomination morning, you sign on, you pull up the YouTube and then they have the chat. And the last two years I signed on and I click it, and it literally is just like a rapidly unfolding list of.

[B]

What is this, the Azores?

[D]

What am I doing? It's that over and over and over again.

[B]

But now the crucial. I. I mean, it's. They're very active. The crucial question has been, are the comments, like, are they favorable?

[C]

Oh, yes. There's a lot of.

[B]

A lot of pro Wagner, the actor, not the composer. Although there might be some of those. It is comments.

[C]

Where are we going next week?

[B]

Oh, yeah. So we are leaving Norway and flying back to America, but also back into the past of Sinners, which I think you can probably find. It might be on Mubi. I don't know. It's a pretty small movie, but seek it out if you get a black. You know, like a black market copy of it.

[D]

So long as you're doing video for Instagram, you want to. You're gonna break out your Irish jig. I think, at some point.

[B]

Right. It's. I mean, it was inevitable at some point. Okay.

[D]

Looking forward to it.

[B]

Yeah. So everyone, if you have watch Sinners or rewatch it, which I'm excited to do. Yeah, I'm excited. I haven't seen it since the spring of last year. And we'll see you back here. And Jo, thank you for being here.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

Good luck. How many more nominated films do you have to watch?

[D]

I have three short films still to go. That's still. Yes.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[D]

Kahuhou was my last feature that I watched yesterday. So, yeah, I'm just on the short.

[B]

Can you give us any kind of tease about what might be toward the bottom or toward the top?

[D]

I watched a movie about dinosaurs the other day that I didn't really care for, so that could be near the bottom. I will say the best picture nominees this year.

[B]

That's a really, really mean description of the Diane Warren documentary.

[D]

The Diane Warren documentary is gonna be higher than a lot of people want it to be. And by that I mean it's not in the bottom five. So.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Yeah, I think the best picture nominees are all generally towards the upper half of the list.

[C]

It's a good year.

[A]

It's a good year.

[B]

Yeah. Well, people should look out for that on vulture.com and also while we're plugging Joe, what's coming up on this ad?

[D]

Oscar buzz, this hat Oscar buzz. We just had an episode go up on Robert Altman's the Company, the ballet movie. He followed up Gosford park. With him and Neve campbell Made what, 400 million worlds? Oh, yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Huge blockbuster. And then coming up soon, we did an episode on the Don Roos movie Happy Endings that I love. Maggie Gyllenhaal got an Independent Spirit nomination.

[B]

Well, because she sings beautifully. Billy Joel.

[D]

One of my things we talked about there was like, why did she never just, like, record a cover of Billy Joel? I had an album of Billy Joel covers. Yeah.

[B]

I had a non ipod, Non Zune. I had some other secret third MP3 player that could fit about 40 songs, and two of them were Gyllenhaal singing.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Billy Joel from that movie.

[D]

She's got a great voice. So. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Well, I'll be here to listen to that while replying. Also, people, Please subscribe to PremiereParty.com, my newsletter. Doing fun things there, including coming up, my recap of the Oscars from 20 years ago, which will include probably hundreds of gifts, which I have to make.

[D]

I always look forward to that.

[B]

Yeah. All right, we'll see you next week.

[A]

Critical Darlings is a blank check production in association with Vulture, hosted by Allison Wilmore and Richard Lawson. Produced by Benjamin Frisch. Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz. Video production and distribution by Ann Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth and Jennifer Jean.