Finding Nemo with Rebecca Alter

Summary

BLANK CHECK PODCAST: FINDING NEMO with Rebecca Alter
Release Date: June 21, 2026
Hosts: Griffin Newman, David Sims
Guest: Rebecca Alter
Episode Length: ~3.5 hours

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Episode Overview

This episode launches the Andrew Stanton “Pod-C” miniseries, commemorating the director’s six-film filmography by starting with his staggering blockbuster, FINDING NEMO (2003). Hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims are joined by journalist and theme park aficionado Rebecca Alter for a detailed, hilarious, and emotional deep-dive into Stanton’s “should-be-taught-in-film-school” undersea epic. The discussion covers everything from the film’s narrative perfection, cultural legacy, and voice casting, to the technical animation breakthroughs, its pivotal role in the Pixar pantheon, and the cultural shifts it both presages and precipitates (including a lengthy detour through Dory/Ellen DeGeneres history and Disney Parks lore).

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genius of NARRATIVE STRUCTURE

• “This is like one of those movies that should be taught in every kind of like conventional Hollywood sort of storytelling lab.” (Griffin, 01:15)
• Finding Nemo is described as a masterclass in setup and payoff—every detail, location, or character trait seamlessly interlocks as the story unfolds.
• The film’s emotional grace notes—particularly the Barracuda prologue, Marlin’s journey, and especially the mid-film moment when Nemo learns of his father’s heroics—are repeatedly cited as among the most moving in modern animation.
  • [16:34] “I think this movie sets up so perfectly the moment that Nemo’s taken. You just start doing the math and you’re like, how could he possibly find him?” (Griffin)

Screenwriting Lessons

• Stanton’s initial urge to scatter Marlin’s backstory via flashbacks failed in test screenings; only when he front-loaded the Barracuda tragedy did the film “click” for audiences.
  • [74:25] “He keeps trying to crack it and he can’t. And then he’s just finally like, what if I just put all this stuff at the top?” (Griffin)
  • [75:08] Griffin recounts Stanton’s later TED Talk on not “out-clevering” one’s audience about onscreen emotional clarity.

2. THEME: An Ode to Parental Anxiety and Child Growth

• Nemo is framed as the ultimate “dad movie,” arising specifically from Stanton’s experience as a self-proclaimed anxious parent.

  • [68:10] “He has the terrible anxiety that he realized that his terrible anxiety was making him a bad father.” (David)

• Marlin’s obsessive, overprotective tendencies aren’t just quirks—they’re part of a greater arc about learning to let one’s child take risks and grow apart.

  • [75:41] “It’s an incredibly devastating thing. And you understand it works perfectly.” (David)

• The ending is lauded for its understated power, showing Marlin quietly, finally, letting Nemo go.

3. The Dory/Ellen DeGeneres Factor

• The casting of Ellen DeGeneres as Dory is celebrated as a paradigm-shifting performance and career resurrection.
  • [81:10] “For the girl to be the hilarious comic relief, silly, stupid one is so awesome.” (Rebecca)
  • [83:58] “Dory rules. Ellen’s great.” (David)
• Dory’s innovatively written memory-loss affliction—rendered with sincerity and constant comic invention—cements her as one of the all-time most impactful animated characters.
• The hosts lament that Ellen was not Oscar-nominated, despite a field of relatively weak live-action contenders.
  • [173:52] “Ellen DeGeneres is better than all of those performances. Like, by far.”

4. Pixar’s Technical Milestone

• The discussion celebrates the film’s water simulation, painterly visuals, and camera simulation as a revolution for CG animation.
• Insiders' anecdotes abound: Pixar animators adapted Monster Inc’s fur simulation for the anemones, and used “hacks” to stretch their limited computing power to its limit for the aquatic setting.
  • [122:15] “They talk about the methods they had to develop and the strategies of how to stop it from costing $500 million.” (Griffin)

5. A Cast of Iconic Voice Performances

• Special praise is given to:
  • Albert Brooks as Marlin, for bringing comedy and authentic pathos through improvisation.
  • Willem Dafoe as Gill, for his “warm intensity” and surprising sensitivity.
  • Memorable bit players: Alison Janney’s Peach, Bob Peterson’s Mr. Ray, John Ratzenberger, and the entire “tank gang.”
• Even uncredited insider vocal cameos are celebrated—including director Stanton’s own legendary “Crush.”

6. Pixar Franchise/Cultural Analysis

• The hosts deconstruct Nemo’s box office legacy: at release the highest-grossing animated film ever and a catalyst for sequels becoming acceptable in big-budget animation ([20:25] onwards).
• They trace animated sequels’ slow march from outlier (Toy Story 2) to norm and talk about the “mini-boom” of sequels and franchise phenomena that follow.
• The show veers into the “Pixar grand unified theory” and Cars universe logic (or lack thereof), fueling some of the episode’s funniest tangents.

7. Anecdotes, Rabbit Holes, & Tangents

Bar Trivia and Pixar Memory

• [10:07 – 11:41] David’s bar trivia story: forgetting The Good Dinosaur and Cars while racking up an impressive “Pixar titles” score.

Box Office and Oscar Debates

• Deep-dive breakdowns of Nemo’s box office performance, how it dethroned Lion King, then lost its record to Shrek 2 (full timeline at [20:04 – 23:10]).
• Passionate argument that Ellen (and vocal performances in general) deserve more Oscar recognition ([173:33 – 174:44]).

Disney Animation History

• A brisk, comprehensive rundown of the 1990s–2000s battle for animated dominance (Pixar vs. Disney vs. DreamWorks vs. Blue Sky) and why Nemo landed when it did ([43:54 – 55:03]).
• Discussion of infamous straight-to-video sequels (Rescuers Down Under, Cinderella 3: A Twist in Time), with Rebecca citing [25:10] Barbie tie-ins.

Theme Parks and Nemo’s Lasting Real-Estate

• Rebecca gives a loving tour of Nemo’s second life in Disney theme parks, especially Turtle Talk with Crush and Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage ([191:00 – 193:44]).
  • “It is one of my safe spaces.” (Griffin, 192:18)
  • “I want to skip over that.” (Rebecca, 192:17, jokingly disagreeing with Griffin)
• The group also discusses rumored villain-themed Magic Kingdom expansions and the impact of theme parks on pop culture.

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Noteworthy Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [03:17] “It is, in my opinion... an incredible setup, payoff movie.” (Griffin)
• [16:34] “The moment that Nemo's taken... you just start doing the math and you're like, how could he possibly find him?” (Griffin)
• [47:54] “There’s this sense of, like, is Disney back? Have they saved themselves? Five months later, Toy Story 2 comes out... Tarzan’s the end of an era and this is the future.” (Griffin)
• [56:19] “When Andrew had done something wrong, his father never needed to say anything. He'd just come and stand in Andrew's room silently and Andrew would tell him everything. Ooh, scary.” (David, about Stanton’s childhood)
• [68:10] “He has the terrible anxiety that he realized... was making him a bad father.” (Griffin, recounting Stanton)
• [74:25] “He keeps trying to crack it and he can’t. And then he’s just finally like, what if I just put all this stuff at the top?” (Griffin on moving the traumatic prologue upfront)
• [80:48] “For the girl to be the hilarious comic relief, silly, stupid one is so awesome. And I still love that... because it still is semi rare.” (Rebecca)
• [83:58] “Dory's good. Ellen's great.” (David)
• [114:42] “I think, like, several points in this movie, in a film that you would not classify as an action film, Stanton kind of pulls off a fish version of an Indiana Jones sequence...” (Griffin)
• [122:15] “They talk about the methods they had to develop and the strategies of how to stop it from costing $500 million.” (Griffin on Nemo’s animation hacks)
• [134:20] “It's all what everyone talks about... is surprising but inevitable... pay off the things that felt like they were. They had to happen. But yet when they happen, they don't feel deep rigor.” (Griffin)
• [153:03] “And he's just saying no to everything she's fucking doing. And then he finally breaks and says my favorite line. You think you can do these things, but you just can't, Nemo.” (Griffin)
• [173:52] “Ellen DeGeneres is better than all of those performances. Like, by far.” (David, re: Oscars snub)

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• 00:45–02:16 – Emotional moments: why Nemo makes the hosts cry
• 16:13–17:15 – The “impossible journey” premise and screenwriting perfection
• 19:18–23:34 – Box office history and cultural legacy of animated films
• 43:54–55:03 – The late-‘90s/early-’00s state of animation studios and market
• 68:10–76:11 – Marlin’s anxiety, Stanton’s personal connection, and the vital restructuring of the narrative
• 80:48–84:03 – The “Dory as female comic relief” breakthrough
• 114:42–128:31 – Tank gang character breakdowns and Willem Dafoe appreciation
• 191:00–196:12 – Nemo’s Disney Parks afterlife: Turtle Talk, Submarine Voyage, and Finding Nemo the Musical

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Podcast Tone & Style

The episode is marked by Blank Check’s signature blend of riotous humor (“You're telling me Emma Mackey is Ella McKay... Ryan Gosling is Ryland Grace. We've gone too far!” – Griffin, 2:00), passionate, knowledgeable film analysis, and deep, specific nostalgia for millennial pop culture. Rebecca’s expertise in both animation journalism and theme parks adds palpable excitement (“I love Radiator Springs in Disney’s California Adventure. It’s one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever been to on Earth.” – Rebecca, 27:53). The panel is quick to chase tangents about Pixar lore, Disney theme parks, and even the logic of the Cars universe, but continuously snaps back to analyze Nemo’s technical and emotional sophistication, and its stunning impact on families and film culture alike.

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Conclusion & Takeaways

The hosts ultimately agree that Finding Nemo stands as one of Pixar’s—and animation’s—apex achievements, an exquisite balance of narrative rigor, visual audacity, perfect casting, and emotional resonance. The episode also functions as a lively prologue for the “Pod-C” Andrew Stanton miniseries, promising in-depth treatments of WALL-E, John Carter, and more.

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Next Episode:

WALL-E with David Ehrlich

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Notable Final Quote

“You think you can do these things, but you just can't, Nemo.”
(Albert Brooks as Marlin, [153:03]; often cited by Griffin as an all-time screenwriting line)

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Theme park, Oscars, and blank check discourse abounds in possibly the platonic ideal of a Blank Check episode.

Transcript

[Griffin]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blank check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect.

[David]

All you need to know is that

[Griffin]

the name of the shadow is blank Jack. Hey, guess what? Podcasts. I recorded one and it was three and a half hours long.

[David]

Three and a half hours long?

[Griffin]

Yep.

[David]

Oh. Cause Sandy Plankton said they only run two hours, tops.

[Griffin]

Sandy Plankton? You think I would do an entire podcast and not know as much as Sandy Plankton? It was three and a half hours, not two.

[David]

Very good. So that's the end of the movie.

[Griffin]

Yeah, it's one of the last lines of the.

[David]

One of the emotional lines. It does. Makes me cry too.

[Griffin]

There's like five different moments in this film that at very least get me right up onto the edge. On the brink of the tear.

[David]

To me, the big moment is just crash. Seeing his age. That's the moment. That's the one.

[Griffin]

Yes. Interesting.

[David]

Beautiful moment. It's so beautiful.

[Griffin]

This movie is just filled with these little grace notes that are, I just think, so elegant, that are funny and charming and don't feel like they're hitting too hard.

[David]

Agree.

[Griffin]

It is, in my opinion, this is like one of those movies that should be taught in every kind of like conventional Hollywood sort of storytelling lab or whatever. Yeah. Cause it's just. It is an incredible setup. Payoff movie.

[David]

Another thing that's filled with grace notes is the notebook of the character, the main character from project Hail Mary.

[Griffin]

Oh. Because his name is Ryland Grace. I think there's not enough discussion of the fact that Ryan Gosling plays rylandgrace

[David]

Ryland Grace, because it's a Hail Mary full of grace, I believe is the Jesus Christ. I think that's what Andy Weir, who's in my opinion, a master of subtlety, is going for there.

[Griffin]

I enjoy that movie greatly. And I think I'm. I'm. I'm now forced by law to knock it down a star. Now that you've explained that to me,

[David]

I. I mean, it's just my read on it. I mean, look, why do they. Why is it called Tinder?

[Griffin]

Speaking of, why is it called Tinder?

[David]

Cuz you get matches and. And it's one of those things that I tell people all the time and they're like, that can't be true. And I'm like, that's literally why it's called that.

[Griffin]

Unfortunately, I am required by law to go onto the app store and knock Tinder down a star as well, because

[David]

famously, you rated it five stars in the app.

[Griffin]

Perfect app only Good things have ever come of it. In my mind. There are only a few perfect apps. Facebook, Twitter, X.

[David]

But yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yes. Truth Social.

[Griffin]

Well, I.

[David]

Truth Social. Very good.

[Griffin]

I count Twitter and X as two separate apps and both of them get five stars. Right. It's Terminator versus Terminator 2.

[David]

Right. X. I wish I could give it six stars because they improved on perfection.

[Griffin]

They did. I'm just saying that to invoke another Albert Brooks film.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Everyone made a fucking meal out of. You're telling me Emma mackey is Ella McKay. We've gone too far. No one's saying, really, in this day and age, in this economy, Ryan Gosling is Ryland Grace Rhineland.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, you can't spell one without the other.

[Griffin]

They're just very similar.

[David]

It's weird. Oh, Rocky. The rock character is called Rocky.

[Griffin]

Yeah. That was also one of our biggest movie stars. I would say now he's maybe top 10 ren track.

[David]

What was Tony Erdman called?

[Griffin]

What was Tony Erdman called?

[David]

Sandra Houler. You know, it'd be funny if she's just called Tony Erdman. I know that's not her name in that movie either.

[Griffin]

Yeah, it's the dad's character's name.

[David]

I know.

[Griffin]

What's her name in the movie?

[David]

It'd be funny if she was just like, hello, I'm Tony Erdman. I run space over there.

[Griffin]

Sandy Heller. Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

I do think now we need to have her singing in every movie.

[Griffin]

I agree.

[David]

Look, I mean, I assumed that was a reference to Toni Urban. Right. That's Lord and Miller being cute, having her do karaoke and I thought that was fun.

[Griffin]

And also being, hey, you know, she does this in a movie. It kind of like knocks everyone's socks off. That's an effective move that we've identified that 9% of the audience won't have seen. Like, we all sit there patting ourselves on the back going like, oh, interesting Tony Erdman reference.

[David]

Maybe they should do Tony Erdman in imax.

[Rebecca Alter]

Wasn't there going to be an ill fated American Tony Erdman?

[Griffin]

Lenham Nixon and Dunham. Lena Dunham 2chillist.

[David]

Yep.

[Griffin]

You were wrong. Lena Dunham was writing and directing. Kristen Wiig was going to co star with Jack Nicholson.

[David]

I didn't actually know that Wiig was involved. The weird thing about that is it's like, don't do that. But I'm like, those are the people to pick. I suppose.

[Griffin]

It's also a movie. I would say on paper, force majeure had this. But downhill didn't nail this where you're like there is a version of this premise that works as a much broader studio comedy. I would not resent you trying to remake it and just doing the more obvious version of it.

[David]

Maybe don't make it 2 hours and 40 minutes long or whatever.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

They have the scene where they all get naked.

[Griffin]

Yeah. Nicholson was going to show a lot of dick. That's what I heard.

[David]

But Tony Irvin finding doesn't get naked in that scene. Right. Because does he show up in the outfit? In the animal, in the.

[Griffin]

The.

[David]

The beast outfit?

[Griffin]

No, that's the very end.

[David]

Yeah, that's the end.

[Griffin]

There's she's naked and. And the younger woman that he's with is naked.

[David]

The bosses. The boss shows up.

[Griffin]

Right. The boss is naked. Maybe he's not naked.

[David]

I think Tony Erdman. Yeah.

[Griffin]

Do you know that the younger naked woman. And I already resent framing it this way.

[David]

Dear me.

[Griffin]

Do you know that that actress.

[Rebecca Alter]

I love Tony Erdman.

[Griffin]

So good. Do you know that that actress. That actress co wrote Malignant. And I was like, why did that happen? And then I dug deeper. She is married to James Wan.

[Rebecca Alter]

Wow.

[David]

Dang wow. Engaged to him in 2019. Tony Urban came out in 2016. Maybe he saw it was like, who's this beautiful woman?

[Griffin]

And what movies could she possibly have in her head about monster skull creatures?

[David]

It is funny that she was like, you know what I've always been thinking about? What if is Face on Back of Face.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

What if you had one extra face?

[Griffin]

One extra face.

[David]

And it does martial arts. Now she's in Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom and she's in all his movies. She's in the Nun. Well, he didn't make that.

[Griffin]

But she has a screenplay credit on Malignant, right?

[David]

She sure does.

[Rebecca Alter]

And that is a delightful screenplay.

[Griffin]

That's a well written film. Another film that should be studied in schools.

[David]

That's a great film. The only problem I have with that film is it came out in the deep pandemic and I kind of don't remember it is. I need to rewatch it.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

You know, that was a Project Popcorn movie.

[Griffin]

I saw it in theaters and I overheard one of the worst post movie conversations I've ever had. Just two bros at the urinal saying like, dude, is that like bad on purpose? Like he needs to have his filmmaking license revoked. Like, how do you not understand that you're making a movie that is like literally bad?

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

And they just kind of kept stewing in that zone.

[Rebecca Alter]

I have no patience.

[Griffin]

No.

[Rebecca Alter]

For people who view things like Malignant in that way.

[David]

You don't.

[Griffin]

You just don't deserve movies. It's not even. You don't deserve nice things. You don't deserve movies.

[David]

I deserve all the movies, though, including the movie Finding Nemo, in my opinion, A perfect film.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. I almost think we don't deserve it as humanity.

[Griffin]

I think it's the Tinder of we

[David]

deserve it in 2013. I mean, 2003.

[Griffin]

We needed it in 2003. I don't know if we deserved it. It was like the dark Knight.

[David]

We were in Iraq.

[Griffin]

It was the hero we needed, not the hero we deserved. We were in Iraq.

[David]

I was 17 years old. I saw this film in Iraq, America. I was here on vacation.

[Griffin]

On holiday.

[David]

On holiday. I saw it by myself, I'm pretty sure at the Regal Union Square.

[Griffin]

And I'm sure you spent the entire movie fuming, oh, yes. At the consideration it showed towards the Australian people.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, my God. I didn't even make the connection. That's what fucking fish.

[Griffin]

Want to go to Sydney?

[Rebecca Alter]

A David Australian corner.

[Griffin]

It's a lawless land.

[David]

I would say this movie does not make Australian humans look good. And the only two speaking Australians are the dentist and the the granddaughter. They're both a little villain.

[Rebecca Alter]

The world's most horrific.

[Griffin]

The dental is a fun guy.

[David]

He's kind of fun, I guess. He's sort of. He's kind of the classic dentist. Like, I think the humor of that is really good, where he's like, how you doing? And then he just, like, tortures people all day.

[Griffin]

Oh, David's whipping the stereotypes back up.

[David]

Well, it's three dogs.

[Griffin]

Like, sure.

[David]

Oh, you know, mate.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Do you think the dentist should realize what's going on with Darla and stop giving her fish? I guess he doesn't know the fish talk.

[Griffin]

That's the thing I really like.

[David]

He doesn't know that, like, Alice and Janny could voice one of these things.

[Griffin]

It's the thing I really like about the Toy Story. Certainly the first 2 Toy Story 1 has this. This has this. Some of the Pixar movies have this. But this is a movie in which no one is consciously a villain.

[David]

Yeah. Yeah, I guess you're right.

[Griffin]

Because, like, the conflict.

[David]

Even the sharks are nice.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Rebecca Alter]

And the angler fish doesn't really have consciousness. That's like, not a sentient fish.

[David]

Although, Becca, good point. Like, what's up with that? Why doesn't he.

[Rebecca Alter]

Well, there's also. We learn that they. There exists in the ocean petting zoos with snails. So snails aren't people. But then like little shrimp.

[Griffin]

There is a cat system.

[David]

I love when a Pixar movie just has a fun joke because they're like, that's a fun joke. And then like 20 years later, I'm like, but I don't. How does this fit into their theory of consciousness?

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, this works into the implications of like there being a car's pope.

[Griffin]

David, David, I can explain it. It's very easy. The witch From Brave carved 20 wooden sculptures. Each of them given.

[David]

I'm well aware. Do they. Are they still doing that with like, you know, like, Elio will come out and they're like, all right, how do we fit this into our grand Pixar unified theory?

[Rebecca Alter]

Well, Elio just exists like in present day Earth and present day space.

[David]

Yeah, I guess recently they've been kind of hitting here. Griff, let me tell you something and then we'll introduce the show. Okay. I just wanna tell you one thing.

[Rebecca Alter]

Okay.

[David]

I was at the bar last week with my friend Caitlin, co host of Hits different, my baseball podcast.

[Griffin]

Secret Podcast.

[David]

It's not a secret. I want everyone to listen to it. Watching the Mets game and then they're like, hey, we're doing trivia. You know, hey, you wanna do trio? They like, they have a sheet.

[Griffin]

This is kinda how you and I became.

[David]

This is true. And I was kinda like, bro, you're a sports sport. We don't need trivia. Like, pick a thing, right? Like, I'm already watching, but okay. And they're like, there's four rounds and you get to double one of the rounds and you have to pick. We'll tell you the categories now.

[Griffin]

Like, like Daily double. You make a double or nothing for the. The value of Franklin park does it too.

[David]

Wasn't the bar was. It was 99 Rogers, not Franklin Park. Okay, Same idea. And so he's like, the categories are going to be like, this one's music. This one. And then he's like, the category three is animation. And I said to Caitlin, like, we're going to double that one. And Caitlin's like, really? And I'm like, I'm pretty sure you're.

[Griffin]

You're good at that. Yeah.

[David]

And it was 20 questions. Write down every Pixar movie. No sequels. Yeah, so write down every Pixar movie excluding the sequels. There's 20.

[Griffin]

Did you break a sweat?

[David]

I didn't. I was like, okay, great. And I like, kept going and I got 18. Do you want to know the two? I forgot. Like, then I. I run out of steam and I'm like, what the fuck? You know?

[Griffin]

Like, did you forget Elio?

[David]

Nope. Had Elio.

[Rebecca Alter]

Does Lightyear count as a sequel?

[David]

No. Yes. Lightyear counted as a sequel. He didn't want Lightyear.

[Griffin]

This is tough because I'm like the ones that are. Did you forget Soul?

[David]

I did not forget Soul. I'll give you a hint. One is a bad and somewhat forgotten Pixar.

[Rebecca Alter]

Good dinosaur.

[David]

Bingo. Good dinosaur. Which I've seen many times and yet still.

[Griffin]

I was gonna say, I assumed you'd remember that one because it is the shorthand. Easy punchline. Bad Pixar.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[David]

Even. Even then the Tenonimity still heard it. The other one is one of the most iconic Pixar franchises. The worst one, but nonetheless a huge car is correct.

[Griffin]

You forgot cars.

[David]

That crazy. Just because, like, cars suck so bad that I kept being like, and what? I had fucking Elio.

[Rebecca Alter]

I had soul in 2006 that I

[David]

didn't see Cars in theaters. I'll tell you that.

[Rebecca Alter]

I still haven't seen it.

[Griffin]

You saw that.

[David]

Actually, my daughter never got into it. Like, she never. She's seen it, but she never yet. Although, I don't know. It hasn't really happened.

[Griffin]

I don't know. She still hasn't watched any of it.

[David]

No, she's seen Cars, but doesn't like it.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

Of Lightning McQueen. I love the concept of Lightning McQueen.

[Griffin]

Speak on this.

[Rebecca Alter]

And Bonnie and Luigi and Doc Holliday or whatever. Like, I love the concept of all these cars. I just haven't seen the movie.

[Griffin]

I'm a little surprised. It feels like a thing you would hyper fixate on because there's like a lot of rabbit holes to fall down in the Cars universe of just lines of thinking. Not even like actual things to study.

[David]

That is true.

[Rebecca Alter]

Well, I love those. Like, I'll watch a YouTube video where someone. Yeah. Does this thing where they connect it all. And Cars is actually sci fi post apocalypse.

[Griffin]

That's the stuff to me. I mean, some of that's interesting to talk about.

[Rebecca Alter]

No, but it's too literal.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Rebecca Alter]

Having to make it all.

[Griffin]

I just think, like, in the way that. The way that you're saying, like, oh, they have a petting zoo with snails. Like, what does that mean? Cars has seven things like that in every single every frame.

[David]

It's so true.

[Griffin]

Right. And it's not stuff that like, Pixar people are digging into online. It's the kind of stuff that like William S. Burrows would spiral over at a bar.

[Rebecca Alter]

You know what? Maybe if it was a movie called Highspeed Rail.

[David]

Go on. Thank you. Exactly.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. Maybe I just don't. Wait. The Biden video that came out yesterday

[David]

where he's like, doesn't this guy look like Obama? And he just brings a black guy on stage? No.

[Rebecca Alter]

But then the.

[David]

The thing that makes me you should

[Griffin]

be standing on the other side is

[Rebecca Alter]

he looks like him. Just enough. Just enough to be the funniest.

[David]

I mean, it's not like he brought out like an 80 year old man or something. Like what's going to happen?

[Rebecca Alter]

Yes. You think it's just going to be like some, you know, like random person in the crowd. Biden is just being senile.

[Griffin]

He didn't bring like Aaron Pierre on stage.

[David]

Lanterns. They're going to solve the crime with their powers. Where are the jackets?

[Griffin]

Mukasa, you don't need the full jumpsuits anymore.

[David]

Aaron Pierre was the voice of Jack Mufasa.

[Rebecca Alter]

He's young, he's. Well, he's like Barry Jenkins. Middle Mufasa.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Rebecca Alter]

And then because young Mufasa sings my favorite song in the world, which is called the I Always Wanted a brother song.

[Griffin]

I always wanted a brother. You don't remember that?

[David]

I have seen Barry Jenkins's Mufasa the Lion King. I'll admit it. It washed over me pretty fast. It didn't. I didn't. You know, I didn't really retain myself.

[Rebecca Alter]

I'm making you listen to the song after.

[Griffin]

I still have not listened to that. Watched that film. But the trailer only had one snippet of a song. The songs of course, written by friend of the show, Lin Manuel Miranda.

[Rebecca Alter]

Is it the Mads Mikkelsen?

[Griffin]

No, it was just. You heard them repeat. I always wanted a brother like five times.

[David]

He always wanted a brother.

[Griffin]

So it was kind of memed. I always wanted to.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's one of the many hooks in that song.

[Griffin]

Always wanted a brother.

[David]

Bye Bye is a song.

[Griffin]

It is, yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

That's Mads Mikkelsen's villain song.

[Griffin]

It is a little insensitive of you to invoke hooks on the Finding Nemo episode. Because of course those are the true unseen villain.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yes, man. Like Bambi.

[Griffin]

The hook.

[Rebecca Alter]

Or hook. Like Peter Pan.

[Griffin]

Yeah. If he went hand fishing. Hook fishing.

[David]

I mean, sure, I've lost this picture

[Rebecca Alter]

him sticking a worm on that.

[Griffin]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. The dentist is benevolent. He's not fucking catching Nemo frying him up. He thinks he's just like my little niece.

[David]

He used to have fish.

[Rebecca Alter]

She loves fish. He saved him. He's like, there Was this little baby clownfish all alone and I rescued it.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

That's a little bit of a savior complex thing where it's like all. I mean, he was in the fucking water.

[Griffin]

He found Nemo. Sure.

[David]

Okay.

[Griffin]

He saw the poster.

[Rebecca Alter]

He was like, he found in water.

[Griffin]

Challenge accepted.

[David]

But yeah, right. There's no real villain. The closest thing is Bruce, the great white shark. And he has worked to overcome his villain.

[Griffin]

But that's like a sequence. Angler fish is a seque sequence in

[Rebecca Alter]

100 thrilling, perfect, funny sequences.

[Griffin]

Yes, yes, exactly.

[David]

In 100 thrilling, perfect, funny minutes.

[Griffin]

There are contained movies 100 minutes long, self contained conflicts within the larger conflict, which is just how do you get across the fucking ocean? I think this movie sets up so perfectly the moment that Nemo's taken. You just start doing the math and you're like, how could he possibly find him?

[David]

It's sort of the Pixar magic of the moving truck drives away.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And Woody is but a tiny little man. How the hell's he gonna get wherever they're going?

[Griffin]

I think this is the simplest and most extreme version of that where you're just like, I don't even understand how he could begin to make contact with him, to locate where he is, to scale that distance.

[Rebecca Alter]

I'm getting emotional at you saying that, thinking about everything that Marlon and Dory accomplished.

[Griffin]

It is the movie. The moment in this film that makes me cry without fail every single time is when Nigel recounts the news that has.

[David]

That's a lovely moment. It's a lovely moment done well by Oscar winner Geoffrey Rush with a pelican

[Griffin]

called Nigel and Oscar nominee Thomas Newman kind of going hard in that moment.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, the score.

[Griffin]

His eyes widening as Nigel's story goes down in the mix of his dad's heroism. See him pantomiming all the things that have happened and Nemo realizes how much his father loves him. It gets me choked up just thinking about it. Today we're talking about Finding Nemo, which is one of the most successful movies in history.

[David]

What is this miniseries called?

[Griffin]

I'm telling you what it's called.

[David]

Please.

[Griffin]

I was talking about it with a guest who will be coming up on this miniseries. Yes. I'm not gonna say. And I said, I've had this one locked and loaded in the chamber. No need to pitch. This miniseries is called. And it's not gonna work when I say it out loud, but it's really gonna work visually.

[David]

It will spell.

[Griffin]

This thing will spell padsi, P O D, D,

[David]

hyphen, C. I love It

[Rebecca Alter]

Pod C. I mean, what else are

[David]

you going to call it?

[Griffin]

We're not going to call it Potting Memecast, right?

[David]

Well, finding podcasts, who cares?

[Griffin]

Potting Casto in the pod of a cast Pod and Casty. That's. That's what was pitched to me. And I said, I don't think that's

[David]

what's Pod C. Pod C. Great. I love it. We're discussing here on Blank Check the Claude Carter Pod Carter.

[Rebecca Alter]

Name it after his most famous, memorable, beloved film.

[Griffin]

You know what I also like about calling it Pod Carter? It implies that it should have been called Podcarter of Cast, and then the of cast was cut out.

[David]

That is fun.

[Rebecca Alter]

It could just be podcaster, but then it would be impossible to tell what

[David]

that even we can't do.

[Rebecca Alter]

That is Right.

[Griffin]

Right. But also it's to pay respect to John Carter. It has to be the version of the title that doesn't really work.

[David]

We here are discussing this summer, this lovely summer that we're, I assume, having the films of Andrew Stanton. Six films total, I believe.

[Griffin]

Yes. Two of them released in 2026 alone. Yes.

[David]

Yes. A man after our own hearts.

[Griffin]

This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

[David]

I'm David.

[Griffin]

It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers, such as releasing Finding Nemo, what at the time was the highest grossing animated film in history. The highest grossing film Disney had ever released in any division. And I believe it was at the time the sixth highest grossing film in history. I know you always get angry when I try to get you to Furious. Pull up these. What was the record at the time?

[David]

I can't.

[Griffin]

I did some research. I found fucking Wayback Machine archived box office Mojo pages. It was the sixth highest grossing film of all time.

[David]

I remember when this film beat the Lion King to become the highest grossing animated film of all time. Because there was a big fight on the Oscar Watch forums about which was the sort of more worthy film for that title.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Like some people like, ah, this sucks. Like this stupid, you know, fish movie. Lion King. So good. Other people like, Lion King's over.

[Griffin]

I remember Nemo's a fucking masterpiece. It also was humongous overseas. Yes. In 2003, it made, I believe, $850 million worldwide.

[David]

Yeah, sounds about right. And the number two of two, I

[Griffin]

think 2003, the only movie that beats it is Return of the King. And Return of the King becomes only the second film to ever make a billion.

[David]

Can you name the animated films that since dethroned the movie.

[Griffin]

This is what I was. This is what I was trying to do the math on. Right. Because it has the record for a year. It kind of like blows the ceiling off of what an animated film can do, especially globally. And then Shrek beats it a year later. It beats the opening weekend record. Trek to Shrek 2.

[David]

Sure.

[Griffin]

Shrek 2 beats it domestically. Beats the opening weekend record.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

Shrek 2 becomes the third highest grossing film in history at the time.

[David]

We love it at the time.

[Griffin]

I think it was Titanic, Star wars, and then Shrek 2 domestically.

[Rebecca Alter]

And of those I know my favorite

[Griffin]

now, I would argue this is the beginning of. I say this respectfully. The initiative occasion of the all time top 10.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[David]

It just starts to be a lot of crap.

[Griffin]

It also starts to be like every year, two movies enter the 10. So the churn becomes so fast.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Up until 2003, it felt like there was a 10. Where you're like, of course there are two Star wars in there.

[Rebecca Alter]

Gone with the Wind, those tights. Not adjusted.

[Griffin]

Not adjusted.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, well, then it's a useless metric. Not adjusted.

[Griffin]

You could look, you could compare the two lists. But it also felt like the unadjusted numbers were like, even. Unadjusted. Even ET Is still bigger than most movies ever released. And then everything starts kind of like usurping. So Shrek 2 dethrones Finding Nemo, and then I think Shrek 2 has it until Toy Story 3.

[David]

You are correct.

[Griffin]

And then basically it becomes a sequel rally.

[David]

This is the thing Despicable Me 2 does well, but I think doesn't quite beat Toy Story 3.

[Griffin]

And then finding Dory overtakes it.

[David]

You have Dory. Dory. But what about. Yeah, that's. No, Dory never overTook Toy Story 3. Although this is a little complicated because a lot of re releases have adjusted these numbers somewhat. Sure. But I can tell you Frozen certainly beat it. Frozen becomes the new number one. Beat Toy Story 3.

[Griffin]

Domestically, internationally, worldwide. This is all worldwide.

[David]

I don't have domestic. This is worldwide. And then it's sort of like, do we count the Lion King remake?

[Griffin]

This is the big question.

[Rebecca Alter]

It is.

[David]

Obviously it's entirely animated computer graphics and animation.

[Griffin]

They tried to pretend it wasn't. I would argue it held the record, but only for a little bit.

[David]

Yes. Because Frozen two. No, no. Lion King actually grows slightly more than Frozen 2.

[Griffin]

And did Incredibles 2 take over at any point?

[David]

Incredible 2's peak was 2.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

A second.

[Griffin]

But I do think Incredibles 2 did take the domestic for a moment.

[David]

Yeah. But then Inside Out 2 and Zootopia 2 and Nejatu.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

Nejatu is now the number one highest grossing animated film worldwide. It has made $2.2 billion.

[Griffin]

And Zootopia 2 is the highest grossing American animated film. Right.

[David]

And also the best.

[Griffin]

Yeah, but this is another. This is another thing. There were very few animated sequels until Shrek 2 theatrically.

[David]

Right. Shrek 2 helps break the taboo of,

[Griffin]

like, Toy Story 2 was an outlier

[Rebecca Alter]

straight to video Disney sequel.

[Griffin]

Toy Story 2 was an outlier, of course. Bumped up from home video to theatrical. It's massive. But it doesn't overtake Lion King. And then Shrek 2 is the first sequel to take the crown. And it does feel like the stigma is off of doing animated sequels. And then it's just everyone playing like, I don't know, it's a baton race between the franchise.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's crazy that they did Rescuers Down Under.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Rebecca Alter]

Especially when they did.

[David]

Wasn't that.

[Rebecca Alter]

What?

[David]

Go ahead.

[Griffin]

No, he knows. I'll tell you what the logic was. It was like Eisner and Katzenberg takeover, right?

[David]

And they're like, we want a sequel.

[Griffin]

They're like, we should do a sequel. That feels like a thing we should

[Rebecca Alter]

do to, like, our least beloved.

[David]

No, but I think they were just kind of like, Rescuers is one of the only ones that makes sense for a sequel.

[Griffin]

Truly, that's what most Disney movies have

[David]

a pretty definitive ending.

[Griffin]

That's the thing. What's wild is they were like. It feels like good business sense to do a sequel. But also, we should do a sequel that doesn't betray the integrity of the original film. So they still were making kind of like an artistically driven story decision where they're like, well, Rescuers is a book series. It feels more episodic. You can just send them on another mission. Every other Disney animated classic feels like

[David]

a closed loop with someone getting married or whatever. Pinocchio becomes a real boy or whatever.

[Griffin]

It was truly like, people.

[David]

Captain Hook is beheaded.

[Griffin]

People won't be insulted if we do Rescuers too. It won't be betraying the sanctions.

[David]

They should do Cinderella, too. And just like she got divorced.

[Rebecca Alter]

Well, they did two or three even straight to video. And one of them is a crazy time one.

[Griffin]

One of them's like a Back to the Future two.

[David]

Sounds good.

[Griffin]

Shit. People like it.

[David]

Oh, they do. Oh, oh. People like it, do they?

[Griffin]

People. Humans. I'm going to ask our guest, have you seen any of the direct to video Cinderellas?

[Rebecca Alter]

I Have not. But I'm sure I've watched some Jenny Nicholson or some such person recap them.

[Griffin]

Yes, yes. I think it's called a stitch in time.

[Rebecca Alter]

Maybe it's a something in time. And the weird thing is Cinderella 3.

[David]

A twist in time.

[Griffin]

A twist in time.

[Rebecca Alter]

Weird thing about those, they came out at the same time as all of the Barbie straight to video ones which were also doing some very exciting things with the same.

[David]

This does say unlike most direct to video sequels, this received generally positive reviews.

[Griffin]

Yeah, people like this one.

[David]

So it's maybe it's like what's the fairy goblin that goes back in time and like kills Hitler or whatever.

[Griffin]

Yeah, that's why they like it.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. Groups were really happy about that.

[Griffin]

Do you know who wrote or I shouldn't say wrote but. But much like Malignant has a screenplay credit part of the team on many of those Barbies 2000s animated films.

[Rebecca Alter]

Can you give a clue?

[Griffin]

He was played by Brian Cox in a movie.

[Rebecca Alter]

I don't know.

[David]

Robert McKee.

[Griffin]

Yes. Yeah, that's one of those things where Robert McKee story. The book that everyone talks about of like this is everything you need to learn about like ah, the three act structure, studio Western, you know, popcorn, screenplay structure. And they'd be like what has this guy done? Why am I listening to this guy? As an authority. And you look it up and it's mostly Barbie animated movies where he was like a story consultant. Today we're talking about Finding Nemo. Our guest, Rebecca Alter.

[David]

Becca.

[Rebecca Alter]

Hi.

[David]

Is this your main feed debut?

[Rebecca Alter]

It's my main feed debut and I'm

[Griffin]

gonna say the best movie you've been asked to cover on this show.

[Rebecca Alter]

Absolutely.

[Griffin]

I think this movie a little better. No offense Ben, than look who's talking now. Okay, fair enough. Slightly more successful has had slightly greater cultural impact.

[Rebecca Alter]

Both talking animal movies though.

[David]

True.

[Griffin]

This is true.

[Rebecca Alter]

I'm happy to carve. Elaine.

[Griffin]

It feels like it is an interest of yours. Is that fair to say?

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

This is one of your beats as a journalist. I guess so. Other Finding Nemo records, it is still the highest grossing physical media release of all time.

[David]

Is that so?

[Griffin]

The Finding Nemo DVD is like. And part of it is just. It comes out at the peak of DVD as a medium.

[Rebecca Alter]

That DVD went triple platinum in the built in minivan DVD player.

[Griffin]

True.

[Rebecca Alter]

In my mom's minivan.

[Griffin]

The accessibility of the video game consoles are adding DVD players. DVD players are in cars now. DVD players are in computers.

[David]

You know what else is in cars? Cars.

[Griffin]

In the movie movie cars I don't know if you guys caught this. A very insidious announcement.

[Rebecca Alter]

Not to the Baby Cars Home entertainment.

[Griffin]

That's the most evil shit I have ever seen.

[Rebecca Alter]

They're doing baby cars.

[Griffin]

They announced. Ben and Becca. They announced this week that there is a Disney Junior TV show that's like Muppet Babies with the Cars characters.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, wait. But Lightning had never met them before.

[Griffin]

I love that you know this much about the chronology without having seen any of the films.

[Rebecca Alter]

Well, do you know why?

[Griffin]

Why?

[Rebecca Alter]

Because I love Radiator Springs in Disney's California Adventure. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been to on Earth. So I said, I need to know the lore.

[Griffin]

Fellow gentlemen of the Blank Check podcast, there is going to be a good amount of theme park talk on this episode. I regret to inform you I warned

[David]

David in advance, have brought, like, a sleeping bag that I could just, like, curl up under. Or a hammock, maybe.

[Rebecca Alter]

Pour.

[Griffin]

Pour the caffeine.

[David]

Hammock on the porch.

[Griffin]

You're staying wide awake for this shit.

[David]

Question about the cars.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

The baby cars.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Are they wearing diapers?

[Griffin]

No, they're just kind of. They're like.

[Rebecca Alter]

They're leaking oil.

[David]

They just like. It's a good question, I guess.

[Griffin]

What. What's the term I'm looking for? Kawaii. Is that.

[David]

Yeah, kawaii.

[Griffin]

I mean, like, they just make them squished and rounder in their eyes.

[David]

Their eyes are bigger. I mean, we'll see this with Finding Dory, of course. When they have Baby Dory, you know,

[Griffin]

like, what is genuinely a billion dollar idea? Like, put Baby Dory at the beginning of the film.

[David]

Dory Small.

[Rebecca Alter]

Say what? I think the most consequential thing to come out of Cars is on the entire culture. We all grew up with the little tykes. Red car, yellow roof. That was a car.

[David]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

Sometime after Cars, they gave that car a face. Like, eyes and a face. And now kids grew up with that car being like a. Like a person. Yeah. Car that they're inside. And I don't think that would have happened.

[Griffin]

This is what Lightning Racers looks like. It. It only looks like 10% cuter than the regular car.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, they actually look identical, but I

[Griffin]

imagine they're gonna have little kid voices.

[David]

But is this suggest that, like, Lightning went to Radiator Springs as a child and knew Mater because, like, he's meeting them all for the first time.

[Griffin]

My understanding is that what it suggests is, who gives a shit? It's gonna make trillions of dollars. Much like Muppet Babies. Which doesn't really make sense as anything other than a what if alternate universe. The series follows Lightning McQueen as he takes on fresh challenges and races around Radiator Springs alongside his old pal material.

[David]

Is it just kind of like fuck it, like it's parallel? Don't worry about it.

[Rebecca Alter]

The new friends are thrill seeking drag car pipes and mud loving monster truck miles.

[Griffin]

Perfect.

[Rebecca Alter]

Which is a great name for a car.

[Griffin]

I mean it sounds like the fucking movie cast is back. Owen Wilson, Larry the Cable Guy, Bonnie Hunt. So they're all gonna have grown up voices. They're recasting Paul Newman.

[David]

Yeah, well he's dead. So I mean that is the reason to recast him.

[Griffin]

Right. I'm hearing this for the first time fighting Nemo. Bestselling DVD of all time. It's also, if you look at all the video game platforms of this moment, game boy color, PS2, Gamecube. It is like amongst the top 20 highest selling games on all of those platforms. It is just a movie that kind of coincides with like peak mainstream American media and the tendrils of it all just rise to the top.

[Rebecca Alter]

We had the Shark Tale PlayStation 2 game, but not the Nemo.

[David]

And what happens in the Sharktail video game.

[Rebecca Alter]

There was a level where you could make the Will Smith fish dance to. You can't touch this.

[David]

Yeah. Sounded pretty good.

[Rebecca Alter]

It was pretty awesome.

[Griffin]

Was it like Parappa the Rappa style dancing? Sounds like dancing. Revolution style dancing.

[David]

So I'm watching a full game play walkthrough here.

[Rebecca Alter]

That's the only part I remember. But we didn't have Shark Tale on home video and we did have Nemo.

[Griffin]

Yeah, kind of. Everyone had Nemo.

[David]

Shark Tale came out what, a year after Nemo.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

I just remember being one of those things where like Nemo, which the movie we're going to talk about today, the water effects and like the way it looks, it's just such a staggeringly good looking movie.

[Griffin]

It still looks incredible.

[David]

I think it's maybe like the most beautiful movie Pixar ever made.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

And then Shark Tale comes out a year later and looks like a fucking like PlayStation game.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Like, like the fish designs are horrendous, but all of it looks bad.

[Griffin]

But it also like there's like no water effect.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

There's no lighting and you're like how do they move? And it's like they sort of just walk upright in the water. Not on the ground, not on the ocean floor.

[Rebecca Alter]

And they have like houses and stuff.

[Griffin]

Yes, there's a, there's a. Ants and bug life.

[David]

Bugs life. Bug life.

[Griffin]

Bug life, sir. Mm.

[David]

Amusing myself. Like, they just, like, look distinctive. They were looked. They were going for different things.

[Griffin]

And in fact, you could argue that the DreamWorks one is the more realistic looking.

[David]

It's absolutely the more realistic looking one. And it kind of blew it off.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Ants ain't blue and do not have just two legs, you know, like in the DreamWorks one, they have four legs and two arms. It's, you know, whatever. It sort of was okay. And then, like, the comparison wasn't as drastic, I guess, is what I mean.

[Griffin]

Sure.

[David]

Finding Nemo. Shark Tale Disaster.

[Griffin]

I saw a thing Andrew Stanton said that really stuck with me, which he. When they started working on this movie, he was like, the challenge I pose to all of you is I don't want to anthropomorphize these fish. I want to figure out the way for them to be able to convey emotions within the physiology of how they actually work.

[David]

That's a good call.

[Griffin]

And it's one of these things where you watch this movie and it's like they create this rule for themselves that they hold themselves to, and the movie really doesn't fucking cheat on it. And it makes it all the more impressive how good I think the performances are in this movie. And I speak of the voice acting, which is obviously like, this is just an impeccably cast movie that changes a bunch of fucking careers and shit. But also the actual character animation performances of the movie are insane.

[David]

Who's your favorite?

[Rebecca Alter]

The Bench is so deep.

[Griffin]

It's so deep.

[David]

Deep, deep, deep.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's impossible.

[Griffin]

I think Brooks is the reason this movie really works. And we'll get into it watching it this time. And this is a movie I have seen more times than I can count. I was really, really locking into the Dafoe performance, which I think is incredible. Very good. Who. Who are your answers?

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, I was thinking more than scary teacher. Oh, no.

[David]

Fucking all day and night. The model of pedagogy. That guy is the best Mr. The way he diffuses various things. Very teacher. There's nothing to see here. That and also when Nemo's trying to say. And he's like, all right, kid, don't knock yourself out. You know what I mean? Like, things like that. So good.

[Griffin]

This is to your point, Becca, though. It's like this movie has like 130 perfectly executed bits.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yep.

[Griffin]

Like, any character in this movie that would be kind of just like a functional point A to point B, exposition driver, or whatever they Give a character game that is so efficient and memorable and charming.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Where no one in this movie feels like they're just filling a spot.

[Rebecca Alter]

The games are clear and distinct and they're all like. They all feel so satisfying. That's the other thing to the creature that they are.

[David]

My other favorite is Alison Janney. I love love Peach so much.

[Griffin]

But this is what we're talking about, right. Where it's just like there's a chain of logic that is very satisfying of like, what is the personality of a starfish? And you're like, well, if she's in

[David]

a tank, she sucks at the wall, she surveils. She's watching.

[Griffin]

Right. And then what's the superiority complex she has about that? She basically become. Becomes the know it all. Because her job is to be on watch. And then who's the person who voices that will of course get like the lady from the West Wing. That's what her personality would be like. All of these choices are so good. Satisfying in a chain of logic way. Everyone's incredible in this.

[David]

Is anyone bad?

[Griffin]

No. And like Bob Peterson, who you're calling out as Mr. Ray, is one of the Pixar guys.

[David]

Oh, I know. I know.

[Griffin]

He's Ross.

[David]

He's my friend.

[Griffin]

He is Doug.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

He, of course, was the original fire director of the Good Dinosaur, the movie. You can't even remember the fire director. Oh, fired.

[Rebecca Alter]

Okay.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Rebecca Alter]

Because it was Sown Sohn.

[Griffin]

It became a Pete Sohn picture. But that is the chaos period where suddenly, like, every director is getting fired. Every movie's being replaced.

[David]

Is son getting a third? He's doing Incredibles 3.

[Griffin]

He's doing Incredibles 3.

[David]

Little bit of a step down.

[Rebecca Alter]

It should be the Next Generation. And it's like, Jack. Jack's a dad.

[David]

That would be pretty funny. Craig T. Nelson's old.

[Griffin]

David's laughing.

[David]

I'm laughing. I don't know. Maybe it'll be good. It's totally not. It's totally gonna be Paddington in Peru, in my opinion.

[Griffin]

He wrote the script.

[David]

I know. So that's cool. Like, my guess is it'll be something where I'm like, this resembles what I like about the, you know, all of this. But it, you know, I can. It feels a little chintzy.

[Griffin]

Very frustrating. It's a little frustrating. Pete Stone has made this will be the third film he directs. We're gonna talk about a lot about Pixar director careers in this series, a thing I studied deeply. But he's directed three films. He's one of the Kind of Pixar brain trust. Top story guys who's worked on all these projects. And he himself has voiced so many beloved characters like Emil and Ratatouille.

[David]

Sure.

[Griffin]

Sox, who is arguably the only good part of Lightyear. Sox is fun.

[Rebecca Alter]

Definitely the only good part of Lightyear.

[Griffin]

Like, he's a really, really fun voice actor. Noted. Gun to your head. Can you name that character?

[David]

I just remember that he's riffing on a level that's just sublime.

[Griffin]

It is. He does some shit with a pen.

[David]

I couldn't name any fucking character in Lightyear. And it's called Lightyear and stars Buzz Lightyear. And I'm still like, is that character called Buzz Lightyear?

[Griffin]

I don't. I don't want you to call mental health hotlines on my behalf, but I did the other night fall down a rabbit hole of watching lightyear videos on YouTube.

[Rebecca Alter]

Well, it's the movie on the. About the man on which the toy is based.

[Griffin]

Becca, I'm sorry, but this is not a movie about the toy. This is a movie about the real person, Buzz Lightyear.

[Rebecca Alter]

The real person on which the toy was based.

[David]

Squirt in this movie is Brad Bird's son. I was about to say the little baby turtle. That's Brad Bird's son, Nicholas Bird, who

[Griffin]

Andrew Stanton heard him speak and was like, this is our generation's Thumper. Rarely do you find he might also be the. What are you waiting for to do? Something incredible, I guess. Kid in Incredibles, if I'm not mistaken.

[David]

Something amazing, I guess.

[Griffin]

Yeah, I think that's him as well. This is the cross pollination of all these things. This is a period of time where Pixar has been super tight and focused. Basically one dream team of people working in all these movies. And for the first time, it's starting to spread out. They're starting to have multiple productions running at the same time. You know, the first three movies are all directed by the same very normal man with really normal boundaries who just loves Huggin. And Pete Docter and Andrew Stanton were the first two people hired at Pixar. Yes.

[David]

They have their sort of initial fabled, kind of like early. What kind of movies could we do? Meeting right where they like.

[Griffin]

We're gonna crack open a dossier.

[David]

Yeah, let's crack open open the dossier.

[Griffin]

David. Yes. You got any big summer plans?

[David]

Sleep.

[Griffin]

Your plan is to sleep for the whole summer, Rip Van Winkle style?

[David]

Sounds good.

[Griffin]

I'll tell you what my plan is.

[David]

What's that?

[Griffin]

To drink AG1 every day of Course.

[David]

Well, you better or else you're going to crumble into dust.

[Griffin]

Problem. Any other plans I make would be foolish, foolhardy if I weren't also planning to regulate my system with AG1. Because it doesn't matter if you're traveling. You got late nights, packed weekends, zero structure any of those. Keeping AG1 in your routine helps you stay consistent. That's a loaded word right there. Consistent. When everything else gets. And here's another loaded word. Unpredictable.

[David]

Oh, I don't want that. And I know you don't either. Look, it's a daily health drink with a multivitamin.

[Griffin]

Yep.

[David]

Pre and probiotics.

[Griffin]

Yep.

[David]

Superfoods and antioxidants.

[Griffin]

An all star lineup.

[David]

One scoop eight ounces of water.

[Griffin]

You just shake it.

[David]

There you go. That's it.

[Griffin]

You drink it. It takes 30 seconds. Now the summers where you want to get a little lax and you want to let yourself go and have fun, but just these 30 seconds a day help keep everything else.

[David]

This is kind of like a. An old fashioned formula with like one to two ingredients, right? Wait a second. What?

[Griffin]

David, I'm laughing going on at your ignorance. This is a next gen formula that delivers 75 plus ingredients backed by four clinical trials. Clinically shown to support gut health, fill common nutrient gaps and improve key nutrient levels within three months. And I want to thank the announcer from bar rescue for jumping in for that one section.

[David]

Very exciting look. Late nights, long weekends, spontaneous plans. Life happens. AG1's gonna help you keep things consistent. Like Griffin's saying, consistent give you high quality nutritional support every single day. No matter where you're starting your morning. I know you drink it every single day. What's your favorite flavor right now?

[Griffin]

Right now I'm actually really big into berry. I've been cycling through them and I've really been enjoying this berry phase. I will say this as well, David.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

You said wherever you are. I'm about to go away for six weeks and you better believe I just ordered a whole box of travel packs so that I don't have to travel unarmed.

[David]

I had no doubt. Visit drinkag1.com check to get your free morning person hat and free AG1 flavor sampler in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription. That's an $82 value. That's drink ag1.com check.

[Griffin]

When I wear that hat, it's going to be so ironic.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

Basically, you know, Pixar is originally a computer technology company. They're like, we should have an animation division. Someone should be around with this Computer animation thing and seeing if there's any money there. It's, of course, a company started by George Lucas. John Lasseter is fired from Disney, where he was kind of constantly the guy who was next up to maybe direct a feature, the one that comes really close to happening is where the Wild Things Are. There's an animation test you can see that's really interesting. Lasseter, like when he saw Tron, was just like, this is the future. There's some future in combining these things, which Disney ends up obviously doing with Beauty and the Beast and Lion King with their big set sequences using CGI backgrounds. Where the Wild Things Are was supposed to be that. He also develops Brave Little Toaster, which is taken away from him, which feels very spiritually Pixar.

[David]

Yeah, it's a movie with Pixar juice. Even if it's right, like, kind of cheap and light on execution.

[Griffin]

Toy Story definitely feels like a refinement of everything he was starting to noodle with. But he gets fired. He goes to this computer conference. I think it's Siggraph. He makes the play. They hire him to be the animation guy. He's one dude noodling. And when they finally go, like, we have some extra budget to see if there's more that can be built here. Who would you want to hire? He goes to his two CalArts classmates, Pete Docter, who becomes the first person other than Lasseter direct Pixar movie Monsters Inc. And then Andrew Stanton's the second. That's sort of the next phase is the anointment of you guys get to make your own movies.

[David]

This is true. And yeah, they were pretty good before I opened the dossier. Becca, your experience with Finding Nemo, you're slightly younger than me. Did you see this in theaters?

[Rebecca Alter]

Absolutely. And I feel like everyone I've spoken to really remembers seeing it in theaters as well. I would have been nine and I think I loved it. But it was also a time when every year of my life, one new landmark animated movie would come out that felt like it was just a constant heightening because it was sort of like tail end of Disney renaissance and the early Pixars and Throw Shrek into the mix. Throw, you know, as a kid, it was huge. Ice Age into the mix. Every year there was a new animated movie that felt like the biggest thing in the world.

[Griffin]

You have basically concurrent with the decline of Disney feature animation, you have three new animation studios rising, and it's still basically only like two or three animated movies a year. Yeah, it is so different than the Current landscape where we're just inundated with shit.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. And they were like, really trying shit, like in a quality, like way to one up each other. So even though I didn't see Anastasia, I was too young when it came out. Like, that was a really important VHS tape. But Anastasia from Random Third studios joining the mix.

[Griffin]

I was gonna say Anastasia is part of the kind of like 90s rush. And there's the 80s rush as well, of like, Don Bluth has left. Other studios are trying to see Disney's week. Is there a chance to dethrone Disney and be the default animation studio? And then when Disney rises again, it's even more of a feeding frenzy of, Jesus Christ, they're making so much money. We should be in this business. But you look at those movies in the 80s and 90s and it's primarily either feature length adaptations of TV shows which are sort of their own thing and are often junkier and lower budget. Right. Or it's other studios trying to figure out how to crack the Disney playbook. Anastasia is very much, can we do the Disney thing? When Toy Story comes out, it's like this absolute lightning bolt of like, wait a second, is there actually not a one kind of formula pattern for what an American animated movie can be while being seen as like a level, you know, highbrow? And then I think Dreamworks and Blue sky, these other studios are all going like, fuck, is there a chance to like, define what your own thing is? There's new visual styles, possibly. There are new storytelling styles, There are new styles of humor, suddenly these things don't have to be musicals. They don't have to be based on fairy tales.

[Rebecca Alter]

Plus there's some stop motion entering the mix.

[Griffin]

Absolutely. Yep.

[Rebecca Alter]

I'll also say, like, even though I was becoming aware of movies during the era that like, that some people see as the decline of the Renaissance.

[David]

Sure.

[Rebecca Alter]

Because of when they came out. The age of like, Tarzan is still maybe my favorite.

[David]

This is something that, as you know, I like, am in media and whatever. I mean, I'm like, I know people who are a little younger than me and I'm like, right, Tarzan? Like, I don't. I saw that in theaters. But by then I was like, oh, the juice is out of this. I mean, Emma Stefanski in our Treasure Planet episode great. Where I was like, right. I didn't even see this shit. And she's like, oh, I. When I saw this, I assumed it was the biggest hit of all time. Like, it was just a giant movie for us.

[Griffin]

The differences Tarzan Was a huge hit.

[David]

Tarzan was a huge hit.

[Griffin]

Tarzan, like, but to me was just. And Tarzan rips massive soundtrack.

[David]

I mean, you'll be in my heart, right?

[Rebecca Alter]

Phil Collins.

[David]

Yeah. I don't mind Tarzan.

[Rebecca Alter]

I've seen it since he's got the invisible touch.

[Griffin]

My personal bias aside, Tarzan is, like, very well reviewed, right? It's was definitely. It's a massive hit. The soundtrack is really, like, culturally important, but five or six months later, really culturally important. At the time, it was humongous. We've gotten criticized for being like, the Tarzan soundtrack obviously sucks.

[David]

I'm pumping. I don't think it sucks. I just don't think it was culture. It's not like a lion king level ear wormy.

[Griffin]

It was the second closest they had ever gotten to that.

[David]

I disagree.

[Rebecca Alter]

And you'll be in my heart was their last sort of like, credits adult contemporary hit song of the 90s. They closed out.

[Griffin]

I don't care that much for Tarzan, but I just think these are objective facts.

[Rebecca Alter]

I think the tree surfing and the vine swinging looks awesome.

[Griffin]

But I mean, like, this is my bigger point is, like, big hit, totally works. There is this sense of, like, is Disney back? Have they saved themselves? Five months later, Toy Story 2 comes out. And it feels like the takeaway from everyone is like, Tarzan's the end of an era and this is the future. We all had fun with Tarzan, but, like, we're moving past this.

[David]

The formula. It's no good anymore, right?

[Griffin]

In the 2000s, Lilo and Stitch is the only Disney feature theatrical animated movie that I would say unequivocally works. That is the only one.

[David]

No, I think Emperor's princess and the frog is that.

[Griffin]

I'm not. I'm saying financially, critically, and test of time. Okay. Emperor's. No, it was a disappointment at the time.

[David]

I guess.

[Griffin]

So it was at the box office.

[David]

Financially, it was a little.

[Rebecca Alter]

You've heard about what. What they're building. They're building an yzma coaster in villainland.

[Griffin]

What?

[Rebecca Alter]

They're doing a pull the lever.

[Griffin]

What?

[Rebecca Alter]

Because they've downgraded from. It was going to be a maleficent water ride thing. And I think

[Griffin]

here's a fun game.

[David]

David.

[Griffin]

What Washington villain Lane is from saying what Becca just said. From hearing her say that.

[David]

So it's because I'm, like, really bad at this. Is it just in Walt Disney World or is it in both?

[Griffin]

It would only be in world for

[David]

now because world's larger.

[Griffin]

There's more space for stuff that's Orlando.

[David]

And I know World Has.

[Griffin]

It's made up of multiple parts.

[David]

Right. So I know there's like, Epcot and Animal Kingdom and all this.

[Griffin]

Okay, you name two. Can you name the other two?

[David]

Is there one that's just kind of like Main Disney?

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. Could you think of what it's called?

[Griffin]

What would your guess be for Disney World?

[David]

No, I have no idea.

[Griffin]

Magic Kingdom.

[David]

Yes, I did know it. I did know it. And then is, like, Star Wars World its own thing, or is that within. Yeah, right. See, this is where they get me.

[Rebecca Alter]

Think of. Think of the movies.

[David]

The movies.

[Griffin]

Now, the problem is this land has changed names many times.

[David]

Okay, give me another hand.

[Griffin]

It was called Disney MGM Studios. It is now Disney Hollywood Studios.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, I would have accepted. I would have accepted mgm.

[Griffin]

Okay, so that is them competing with Universal Studios.

[David]

I get that. Is there another one?

[Griffin]

Epcot was Walt's dying. Animal Kingdom was them competing with. With Sea World and Bush Gardens.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

All that shit. Okay, those are the four in Orlando. There's the fucking water parks that. I think Becca were on the same page. Don't fucking count. That's not a problem.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, I still haven't ever been.

[David]

The villain world is in the Magic Kingdom, Correct.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, it will be.

[Griffin]

Now. Why are they. Why are they doing that?

[David]

Villains are popular. The Descendants. Oh, no, no, no.

[Griffin]

What are they competing movies again? What are they competing with?

[David]

With the Dark Universe, of course.

[Griffin]

Exactly. Truly is that Universal opened their new park in Orlando, where they reclaimed the name Dark Universe and applied it to monster theme park. And so now Disney's like, they have a cool scary thing. We need a cool scary thing. Villain land. Now, all the rumors had been it was going to be built around Maleficent as the centering force.

[David]

And they are sort of realizing, like, maybe Maleficent's like. Like, kind of old movies.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, no, they still are doing.

[David]

Isn't that why they were thinking about

[Rebecca Alter]

the Maleficent water ride?

[David]

Third Maleficent movie? Like, they're always claiming they're gonna do that.

[Griffin]

I mean, that's part of why Tron Ares happened. Because they also had spent hundreds of millions of dollars building a Tron roller coaster.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And they wanted object permanence for that franchise. But interesting. So Yzma would be its own ride. It's not replacing Maleficent.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, it's not replacing Maleficent. But this was announced after the first announcement, and I think there were conversations about them actually scaling back the scary on Maleficent.

[Griffin]

This is the thing Disney's a little cowardly about getting too scary. Yzma's more funny than scary. Does she give them an easy out?

[David]

Right. But then it's just like, why are you? Why are you?

[Rebecca Alter]

And they love giving Patrick Warburton something to do.

[Griffin]

Sure. Looking up Villain Land Emperor's new groove is a masterpiece, but it was not a major hit.

[David]

Yeah. It was a minor hit at best. Right.

[Griffin]

And it was not really appreciated the time.

[David]

Yeah. And then I mean, obviously you're like,

[Griffin]

treasure Planet Atlantis are just like complete belly flops for them. Home on the Range is the last hand drawn Lilo. And Stitch is the one upswing there. And it's the movie that basically sneaks through the cracks. And then that first CGI runs a disaster.

[David]

And then you have Princess and the frog at the end where it's like, did pretty good. People liked it. But maybe even that underwhelmed and had

[Griffin]

the pressure on it of can this bring back the Disney princess movie in Hand Drawn? It does okay, but it does well. But the next year, Tangled comes out and once again, it's like, this is the future. Here's our model. This is what we're doing. We've redefined what our sort of Disney animated movie format is. But so that leaves the floor open for Pixar, DreamWorks and Blue sky to invent a new thing and to really be like, right. It's all open game. And what Andrew Stan talks about is feeling like Toy Story, Monsters, Inc. And Bug's Life all shared a similar vibe. The first three, obviously, a lot of that's that they're directed by same huggy guy, Lotso, Huggin, Lasseter. But also that it's the one core team working on every movie. Pixar basically, at this point only has enough employees to be focused on one movie at a time. And when Lasseter goes, doctor, you get a movie. Stanton, you get a movie. They start expanding the crew and they're splitting up. Who's getting Peterson? Who's Joe Ran? Who's getting Pete? Son. All these story guys. He said that to his doctor.

[David]

He was like, doctor, you got a movie. The doctor was like, I think you should give it to one of

[Griffin]

that. Be good.

[David]

Why wasn't Dr. Mario in super Mario Galaxy?

[Griffin]

I'm sure that I sent you a video. The theory that Dr. Mario is legally classified within Nintendo's copyrights as his own character and not Mario himself.

[David]

So it would have to be like, Mario has a cousin who's a doctor.

[Griffin]

This is the way.

[Rebecca Alter]

That's what the dad should be disappointed about.

[David]

That would be funny.

[Rebecca Alter]

Why Aren't you? Why can't you be like TikTok?

[David]

He's got so many pills.

[Griffin]

I send you all colors. I sent you this TikTok video that someone pointed out. In the first Super Mario movie, there was an empty seat at the family dinner table where Mario's dad's like, I don't respect you being a plumber. And there's like a little nephew there whose dad is missing. And the implication is maybe, does he hate his plumber son so much because

[David]

his other son, successful medical student.

[Griffin]

And if Mario's the last name, then his name might be doctor, like William Mario.

[Rebecca Alter]

This is the GP now, every animated movie and kids movie in a bad way is about, like, weird dad angst. But this is really groundbreaking and genius about weird dad angst.

[Griffin]

This movie is made by a dad working through his things versus, I think, a lot of animated movies and specifically illumination films. And who knows why this is the case.

[David]

Right. Feel very driven by told to be about this.

[Griffin]

Yes, well, and also people who cannot get over my dad doesn't respect what I do for a living, which is a little limited as a story, as an emotional arc. Unless you're digging really deep, Finding Nemo feels like it comes out of a very honest place. And I also think all these early Pixar movies are really defined by these guys as young fathers, you know, overgrown children, people who went into the field of animation suddenly crossing this line of like, I have a kid and now I'm kind of like, dealing with existential terror of like, wait a second, I have to be a grown up. How do I raise kids properly? What do I feel about how I was raised? What is the world I want them to live in? And also they're in this insane industry working on these movies that are so intense, that take so long. And they're all kind of fighting this, like, concern of, am I not spending enough time with my family?

[David]

Sure, right.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And it makes sense. All these workaholics like to give joy

[Rebecca Alter]

to all the children of the world. They must miss their own child's dance recital, right? Yes.

[David]

Soccer practice. So, Andrew Stanton. I'm opening the dossier.

[Griffin]

Please do.

[David]

Born 1960, December 1965, in Massachusetts. Heard of it?

[Griffin]

Yeah, he does. He has a couple voices in this movie, but one of them is the lobsters. The Boston Lobsters.

[David]

Born in Wellesley. Moved to Rockport because. Whatever. Apparently his dad was sort of like, Wellesley's too. Sort of fancy. I don't like how, like, rich and rich and white it is here. His father Ron Stanton was an MIT graduate, founded a company called HiCore, which the new Yorker says did confidential radar work for the Department of Defense.

[Griffin]

Cool.

[David]

Andrew says that Ron was a classic authoritarian figure away from home a lot. Kind of tight lipped Gloria. The moment puts it this way. When Andrew had done something wrong, his father never needed to say anything. He'd just come and stand in Andrew's room silently and Andrew would tell him everything. Ooh, scary.

[Griffin]

I mean, to what we were just saying.

[David]

Whereas Gloria is a fun mom. She was an actress who gave up acting to have a family and she loved, you know, to entertain and be fun.

[Griffin]

All of this makes a ton of sense.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. He lives at the intersection of weapons tech and acting and fun.

[David]

Right.

[Rebecca Alter]

That sort of Pixar is right in the middle.

[Griffin]

To your point, Becca, What a relief that the movies aren't about this.

[David]

Yeah, about like my parents.

[Griffin]

Right, right. My dad doesn't respect me being a plumber.

[David]

So, Gloria, this is all from like a New Yorker profile of him. I think for Wally is when they did this.

[Griffin]

There's also an incredible New Yorker profile when John Carter comes out that we will talk about extensively.

[David]

For John Carter, because it's 2011.

[Griffin]

It's right at the fulcrum point of,

[David]

yeah, I think it's for John Carter.

[Griffin]

What's going to happen when this movie is released.

[David]

So his dad introduced him to science fiction, including the John Carter novels. He was a rocket scientist. He had pulp sci fi novels throughout the house. He dragged him to like every single sci fi movie. The culture stuff isn't just coming from the mom. Stanton said basically he was a precocious little boy with like undiagnosed ADD who just like wasn't quite like a child prodigy, but was clearly like very like very energetic and creative and like doing lots of stuff kind of like without much encouragement. He would make little skits with a Super 8 camera. He had a show he did with his friends called the Silly Show.

[Griffin]

Sounds pretty good when you watch all the vintage Pixar special features because they were really at the forefront of DVD bonus material and showing so much of. With every release. Like, here's more about how Pixar works and pulling back the curtain, not just

[Rebecca Alter]

on the technical part, which is so classic Walt. That's so Wonderful World of Disney.

[Griffin]

This is part of why Lasseter gets pushed into the Is he the new Uncle Walt position. But you watch those things and I'm just gonna say this, this Andrew Stanton is charismatic in a way that none of those other guys are that's interesting Andrew Stanton personality. He is just clearly like more of a people person versus, like Lassiter had always felt was kind of doing an impression of an Uncle Walt. And Pete Docter, by his own admission, is a pretty introverted guy.

[David]

Right. He seems like a pretty reserved kind of.

[Griffin]

He's a kind of classic animator. I. I want to just like, draw a thing and slide it over to you rather than talk and Interesting. And I think did a fair amount of, like, school acting and such when he was growing up, which I also comes across in his movies. And the silly show that he's a little bit more of a performer.

[David]

He went to University of Hartford for one year, but then transferred to CalArts, Griffin's alum.

[Griffin]

I dropped out, but yes.

[David]

So obviously he's part of the sort of legendary program there a 113 that you just, you know, invoked earlier.

[Griffin]

I mean, that classroom, that era is also like, I believe Stephen Hillenburg, who creates spongebob, love that guy. Brad Bird is there with them at that same time. Even though he comes to Pixar later. I mean, it's like 10 people in that year who went on to make an outsized cultural impact in animation.

[David]

He had been dating his now wife Julie, basically since he was 15 years old. She went to Georgetown. They got married right after they graduated. Basically settled in Los Angeles. Stanton worked on a sex education film starring Martin Short for Croyer Films Animated. The sperm.

[Griffin]

Is this the Journey of Me?

[Rebecca Alter]

Is this coming all the way back around to look who's Talking?

[Griffin]

I think so. I believe there's an attraction that at one point was part of Epcot called the Journey of Me, the Making of Me. There we go.

[Rebecca Alter]

I've seen this. So, yeah, it's a sex education short that played in the sort of wonderful human body part of Epcot.

[David]

Yep. It was Wonders of Life Pavilion.

[Griffin]

Fair enough.

[David]

Like many CalArts students, he wanted to work at Disney, was rejected three times. But then he meets John Lasseter and he had, I guess, some student films. I had these student films that were luckily entertaining enough that they showed some at festivals that also had, like, Luxo and Tin Toy, the early Lassiter shorts playing at them. And they kind of hit it off. My favorite's the bicycle one, Red's Dream.

[Griffin]

Red's Dream.

[David]

I always liked that one. Yeah, Stan, that's a freaky clown.

[Griffin]

Stan's stuff is really funky. Yeah, he also. I mean, I don't. Time might be off on this, but I know he worked on the Ralph Bakshi Mighty Mouse cartoon.

[David]

Yeah, I Mean, the. The sexa Ed thing was, I think, also Bakshi Studios, or maybe, or I can't remember Mighty Mouse. The new.

[Rebecca Alter]

Think of Bakshi making something for, like, Epcot goers, right?

[Griffin]

This is this weird era where Bakshi's like, trying to play a little more mainstream, but all the stuff he makes is just kind of subtly off and weird. Not that I think he's trying to be transgressive, but that he can't be normal.

[Rebecca Alter]

There's something inherently degenerate like coursing through

[Griffin]

that Mighty Mouse cartoon is like that and is fascinating. I highly recommend looking it up. Stanton, I think, had writing credits on the whole season and was pretty involved in that. Yeah.

[David]

Can you watch the shorts? Are those available?

[Griffin]

They must be somewhere. But Mighty Mouse is one of those things where I could not even tell you who has the rights. I'm like, are the Mighty Mouse rights owned by, like, Crest Toothpaste through some weird conglomeration?

[David]

So he is hired as Pixar's second ever animator. Obviously Pixar has been taken under the wing of Steve Jobs at that point. Andrew Happy go lucky, they say. Relied on humor to get by. He works on Toy Story, obviously. That's his first Oscar nomination. He's one of the many credited writers of Toy Story.

[Griffin]

So let me just unpack this a little bit because, a. I think he's, as I said, he's a very charismatic guy. He's very sociable. There's a story I'll tell later in this episode that's kind of a thing that makes him as a filmmaker, but he is an incredibly anxious, somewhat cynical person. He talks about, like, the constant battle between those two forces within himself and trying to probably the battle between his mom and his dad. You know, being someone who is avuncular and outgoing and sociable, but is constantly kind of like wrestling with these concerns inside of his head. Everyone at Pixar says that Woody is him.

[David]

That's interesting. He says Stanton. He says he's Sid. I can read you the quote.

[Griffin]

So he. Ben, he came up with the character.

[David]

He was the guy who wrote Sid, essentially.

[Griffin]

And that Sid is the reflection of what he was like as a teenager.

[David]

He liked to break his toys and then, like, remake them into new things.

[Griffin]

Right. As creative projects. Which is back to this point, I'm making of, like, Sid doesn't know he's a fucking villain in Toy Story. Andrew. Stan has always said this. He's like, Sid's a creative kid who just hasn't gotten to art school yet. He doesn't have an outlet. You know, the kind of, like, myth making here is within Pixar. They're sort of like, I guess we need to bring in an outside screenwriter, a Hollywood screenwriter. A number of people take passes at Toy Story in years of development, including similarly normal person Joss Whedon, one of the fake Cohens. I can't. It's not Etan Cohen, but maybe it's the other Joel Cohen spelled differently. There are like four or five credited screenwriters on Toy Story who are mostly Joel Cohen. Pretty much.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

Yeah, mostly other kind of, like, Hollywood spec script, punch up rewrite guys. And they kept having people come in. They'd pay them to work on the script for, like, a couple months. They'd fix a couple things, but other things wouldn't be fixed. They had never really solved it. Disney wasn't giving them more budget. And the sort of, like, myth making part of this is that Andrew Stanton goes like, can I just, like, try and see if I can do a pass? And Stanton sort of holes away with the script and is the guy who, like, finally fixes everything and cracks everything and makes it cohesive. And Pixar realizes, like, oh, fuck, we have a screenwriter here. We have a guy in house who knows how to do this stuff. Especially after the infamous Black Friday screening where there was the very dark, very cynical version of the movie. After. Right.

[Rebecca Alter]

Where Woody was like, an asshole originally. Yes.

[Griffin]

Katzenberg had kept saying, like, I think there's a future with edgier, funnier, darker, more adult animated movies.

[Rebecca Alter]

And little did he know, he basically

[Griffin]

gets there with Shrek. Shrek is what he always wanted to make, but he kept pushing Pixar past their natural instincts. And so there's the screening they show of the story reels right before it goes to animation. That's like a disaster. Where Disney's gonna pull the plug on the movie because they're like, this lead character is like a complete asshole. This movie is just unpleasant to watch. And they beg for three days to rework the film. And I think Stanton does a lot of the story, heavy lifting. And they do the just like, fuck it. Let's get back to the exact movie we want to make. They greenlight that conditionally, and the film ends up happening as it is. But there is this kind of, like, Stanton's attitude mirrors Woody very much of constantly being frustrated but wanting to put forward the face of like, I got this under control. I'm looking out for all of you.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

Yeah, right, right.

[David]

Well, that makes sense. Yeah. So, Jim Morris says he's the best sort of genius for story structure.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

That's one Pixar guy, Michael Arndt. That guy, you know, says that he's kind of good at being harsh in a story. Like he'll say the thing that's not working or whatever. Like he's more blunt.

[Griffin]

I saw him say in an interview that that was a big thing from Steve Jobs, who, you know, and this era is still very hands on with Pixar, that he was just like. People would get really turned off by how blunt Steve Jobs was, but he was just kind of ruthless in identifying what is the problem and what is the thing that needs to get done. Right. Yeah.

[David]

Some of the other credits before Nemo, obviously. He's also a co director and writer on Bug's Life. He's also the voice of Bug Zapper, Bug One and Singing Grasshopper two.

[Griffin]

Uh huh. In the Disney parks, there is an attraction that is now closed called Tough to Be a Bug that took place inside the tree in Animal Kingdom and had a giant animatronic hopper that they didn't need to remove. When Kevin Spacey got canceled because Kevin Spacey refused to do the recording, Andrew Stanton did it instead. Andrew Stanton does a weirdly good Kevin Spacey.

[Rebecca Alter]

And that was already one of the scariest things in Disney parks without Kevin even doing the voice.

[Griffin]

True, true.

[Rebecca Alter]

And it has been replaced by a horrible Zootopia attraction. Right.

[David]

Interesting.

[Griffin]

Tough to Be an Animal.

[David]

He's the voice. Oh, sorry.

[Griffin]

No, I was just gonna say co director in animation can mean a number of different things. Sometimes it means that two people are directing a film equally. In this era, Pixar, it's sort of the junior director thing. Lasseter taking him on as co director for A Bug's Life was sort of to train him to be able to make his own film. But he is by all accounts kind of the main screenwriter of A Bug's Life. And also when Toy Story 2 is saved from direct to video and reworked, he is the guy who does that. So across those first three movies, he is like the main writer guy.

[David]

Right, Right. So Toy Story 2, he's got the credit, of course. He's the voice of Hammond, Buzz Lightyear, Star Command. The adventure begins. Can't say I knew that.

[Griffin]

Yeah, that's just in the opening. This is the thing. He's a really good performer and he would often do sound alike voices for when the stars didn't want to come do something like a ride or a commercial or whatever it is. He is the voice Of Zurg canonically in Toy Story 2. That is him. He's the real Zurg voice, obviously with a bunch of modulators on him.

[David]

So finding Nemo's been swimming around in his head. Interesting use words there about fish. Since Toy Story, he says he'd always wanted to the ocean. He was fixated on a child on his dentist's water fish tank.

[Griffin]

When he wasn't a child, he would

[David]

look at the child. Yeah. Which was a weird way to see humans. What's the movie about? What's. What makes me care. He says he's in a walk with his five year old son Ben. And he has the terrible anxiety that he realized that his terrible anxiety was making him a bad father. Like that he kept being like, careful, you know, like that he was like

[Griffin]

pulling him from running into the street and all the sort of things. And he went like, you should do that. Yeah, yeah. But. But it was the intensity of his worry that he felt. Right. And he was like, here's my day. I have a day alone with my son and I'm gonna have no good lasting memories of this because I spent the entire day concerned about everything he was doing and not actually connecting to him. And that's the real germ of the idea. I wanna make a movie about that.

[David]

He also had seen an early cut of Lion King and apparently remembers just slamming on it. Says like sort of shows what I know. He hated the idea of the sort of circle of life of like, oh, we're all just part of this grand chain. And we're all, you know, it's all helpful. He likes the Bambi idea of like it's a real scary predatory world. And he's like, Nemo is set in the Bambi world.

[Griffin]

This is another thing that I really give him specifically credit for changing in the language of American movies. Because I really think it starts with Toy Story animated movies in which characters talk like grownups. Right. Where you're not dealing with kind of like mythical representational voices of reason, cosmic evils. And so much of the comedy in this movie is just that it's funny that two fishes are talking in this casual a way and that they are so recognizable as personality types. But I think, right. He's. He's speaking to a very specific human anxiety rather than kind of like a larger just so stories type of lesson.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. Without tipping too far into the shark tale. Like a. I'm swimming here. Which I'm just gonna guess they say.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

If they don't say that. Missed opportunity. Arkerman Fucked up.

[Rebecca Alter]

They do sound like grown ups, but yet not in that DreamWorks way, which is a different thing.

[Griffin]

Yes. I think it's that the DreamWorks movies start really iterating on other things in pop culture in a kind of postmodern, metatextual, self referential kind of way. And what Stan sort of identifies is like an audience will laugh if a character suddenly reminds you of a type of person, you know, not an archetype in sitcoms, you know, but like a type of person with a specificity. Yeah.

[David]

So finding Nemo, he settles on clownfish because he sees like a coffee table book and finds them arresting. I mean, it's obvious, like, it's a great idea.

[Griffin]

He saw a picture of two clownfish coming out of an anemone and it looked like they were sort of hiding and he was like. And it looks like a parent and a child.

[David]

He presents an hour long pitch to Lasseter. Lasseter is a longtime scuba diver. So he's hugging the fish down there too, unfortunately. And Lassiter says, you had me at fish.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And then he's like, how about a hug?

[Griffin]

The other part of that story is,

[David]

bring it in, buddy. Anyone else want to join?

[Griffin]

Stanton the Worrywart planned an hour long pitch that involved him doing all the voices, sound effects, and he had audio cues and like, fish.

[David]

That's a great idea.

[Griffin]

We can sell fish. Truly colorful. Right.

[Rebecca Alter]

We also can't stress enough how big spongebob was at the time. Everyone loved underwater. We were underwater. Crazy.

[Griffin]

Let's call out, though. This is. It's a little bit of parallel thinking. Like, SpongeBob premieres in 99. There's four years in between.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

But the lead time on animation is.

[David]

This is around 2,000, I think, when this movie goes into production. Yeah, yeah, it's.

[Griffin]

Spongebob was immediately a hit, like, right out of the box. I think that was a little bit of them getting lucky with timing. Another thing I think I saw Jim Morris say this, that was unique about this movie is so often they would come up with a big idea at Pixar and then they would all sort of brainstorm together and then they'd hire an outside screenwriter or three or four people would noodle on it and they'd keep iterating and adding things to it until they finally got to something vaguely resembling a script. Stan literally just sat down and wrote a script for this one.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

It is like right after A Bug's Life.

[David]

It's different from the. Yeah, I know. There's other people now. Like, other people Credited and all that. But he had a screenplay, but.

[Griffin]

But in a kind of complete vision way. It gets changed in. In regards. But it was a. Like, here's the arc of my story. Here's what it's about. Here are the major beats, however, beginning to end.

[David]

The problem was the Tank story. Like, he had the Search for Nemo stuff, I think much more set, but the Tank story kept derailing the narrative. Is how the other Pixar guys put it in this sort of initial pitch.

[Griffin]

Right. How does that not feel like you're cutting away to an inactive.

[David]

Exactly right. The original script, also the loss of Marlin's wife was communicated with re flashbacks in her first through the film and only in the third. We talked about this on this podcast before. Only in the third act do you see that. It was like this barracuda attack.

[Griffin]

Allow me to restate this.

[David]

Please do it now. Because it's like basically the audiences were like, what the fuck? Right? Think it is so stressful.

[Griffin]

It is the most important thing in Andrew Stanton's career. And it swings back in a different way in John Carter, in a way we need to talk about. So this is the thing that needs to be established. He, as a guy who now, in the time between Toy Story and Finding Nemo, has gotten really serious about screenwriting and read the books and studied other movies and really tried to understand screenwriting as an art form, was obsessed with movies that are able to do this as a storytelling device. Isn't that fun when a movie can kind of slowly tease out information and backfill it in multiple flashbacks? And so he just. That was the shape he conceived in his head of. The movie starts with Nemo waking Marlin up his first day of school and yada, yada, yada. And across the film, you start to get these flashbacks until you finally at the end realize, oh, his wife was killed by a barracuda. All the other eggs were destroyed. Nemo's the only son he has left. And they would play the story reels for audiences, which are basically. It's usually. Sometimes it's Pixar animators, sometimes it's the final cast actors and the voices. Lightly animated storyboards, usually with temp music. Just so before they do the expensive part of actually starting animation, they can feel the flow of the movie and they play it. And people are just like, we hate Marlon. He sucks. Yeah, this guy drives me crazy. And by the time they explain why he has this level of neuroses, it's too late. The audience isn't on Board.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right.

[Griffin]

And he keeps trying to crack it and he can't. And then he's just finally like, what if I just put all this stuff at the top?

[David]

Yeah. And it makes sense.

[Griffin]

I just do it.

[David]

It's also really helpful for me because I can just not watch that with my daughter. Just skip right past him.

[Griffin]

But as you said, he was like, everyone was concerned. That's too scary. You can't front load it in a movie. And he said, like, that's Bambi. Bambi exists and Bambi survives as a beloved film. I think you need to look the scary thing in the eye. And the second he did that, the movie worked. The other thing that happens is Dory.

[David]

I don't know if you know if that's what you were gonna say, but to him, it's Dory. What are you gonna say?

[Griffin]

There was a different actor cast.

[David]

Well, we'll get to that. Let's get to that. Okay. The other thing for him is Dory,

[Griffin]

but I just wanna say he has a TED Talk around the time of John Carter where he shares the storytelling lesson he learned there of not trying to out clever yourself as a storyteller. That it's important for audiences to have the emotional information they need to understand what's going on with the characters. And very often, if you try to be smart or stylish in your sort of devices, you actually. It's cutting edge.

[Rebecca Alter]

You're alienating the audience.

[Griffin]

Correct.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. You could just as easily. Because with this, from the very beginning, you're like, marlon has suffered.

[David]

Yes.

[Rebecca Alter]

You know, you're rooting for.

[David]

It's an incredibly devastating thing. And you understand it works perfectly.

[Griffin]

It is so Elizabeth Perkins crushing it. That's the other thing. Like, Elizabeth Perkins is great. Within 30 seconds, you understand the dynamic of their marriage. A scary thing happens. You see his anxiety, like, it's just.

[Rebecca Alter]

And it also introduces you to like in Finding Nemo and in the ocean, it's like danger at every turn. These fishes lives are very precarious. Like, we're going to encounter a lot of scary creatures.

[Griffin]

There are actual stakes from the beginning. It's not just that this kid is lost. It's like the mother dies, as do hundreds of eggs.

[Rebecca Alter]

At least hundreds of fish every day die in the ocean.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Dory, to him, kind of takes the film to another level. She bridges the two main characters. He was inspired by the structure of the novel Cold Mountain for this.

[Griffin]

So Dory's the Vernee Zellweger character.

[David]

That's what I assume he Means by that, David Reynolds, who's a Conan writer and had worked on other Pixar movies, and Bob Peterson, who.

[Griffin]

Mr. Ray.

[David]

Right. Who hadn't written a movie for Pixar yet.

[Griffin]

But it's one of their main storylines. Exactly.

[David]

Those are the other credited screenwriters. William H. Macy first cast as Marlon. They wanted someone with a lighter touch, is the cited reason.

[Griffin]

As Stan has always put it.

[David]

This is never revealed until there's a Pixar book that reveals it. Right.

[Griffin]

So Stan always talked about the fact that they had originally cast dramatic actor, and it felt like it made the movie too heavy. He cast a guy who was funny but comes from a dramatic background and that he felt like he was playing the anxiety too real and too weighty. And it fought the comedy of the movie. And he always kind of, in a gentlemanly way, never named who the actor was, but then said, when we brought in Albert Brooks, he didn't need to play anxiety. That's his natural state. And he could riff all these jokes on top of it. And it worked. The book, the Pixar Touch, is the one that finally puts William H. Macy as the name. It's never really been verified, but it's basically been commonly accepted. That's who it was. It makes a lot of sense to be like Andrew Stanton thinks, well, wouldn't like William H. Macy's character from Fargo in an animated movie be the correct version of this? But that's a very dark movie where you kind of want to watch that

[David]

guy's self offer totally. Albert Brooks had was making the In

[Griffin]

Laws comes out the same bunch of

[David]

sessions around the In Laws. Essentially. He said. He said he did 11 sessions of four hours each. That's all he had to do. Yeah, it doesn't sound like that much to me.

[Griffin]

The other thing he said is that he basically would never read what was written on the page, but then would improvise for like 20 minutes.

[David]

He's really good.

[Griffin]

He's like, you can't get him to say the same thing twice. He doesn't want to do line readings. But he, because he's a writer and a filmmaker in his own right, would look and be like, what's the thing that needs to be conveyed in terms of story information in this line of dialogue? And then now I will give you 20 iterations of the funniest ways that could happen. He's a really funny guy and

[David]

good governor.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

And a good. What's he becoming, Secretary of Labor or

[Griffin]

commerce or something in the country in which he was born. And raised.

[David]

We assume. We assume.

[Griffin]

Yeah. What if he's a dirty Russky? What if that was cut out of he's becoming president?

[David]

He could be, like, Canadian or something. Canadians in the room with us right now.

[Griffin]

Canadians in the room with us right now. Hi, Becca.

[Rebecca Alter]

Hi.

[David]

Okay, Brooks comes up with the clown thing. He comes up with the joke like that. He can't do jokes. That was Brooks's idea.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

Stanton's watching Ellen, the sitcom Ellen. Much better than the talk Show Ellen.

[Griffin]

Late 90s. Yeah.

[David]

And she kind of, you know, the Ellen delivery thing of like, she changes her mind five times into a sentence.

[Griffin]

She had one line where she changed the topic seven times and turned to his wife and said, I think that's Dory. Now. Dory was written to be male.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

And speaking of this, kind of like Andrew Stanton coming in and saying, how do we break the mold of what a Pixar movie is a little bit. Right. That he felt like Toy Story, the two toy stories in Monsters, Inc. Were all buddy pictures, all had Randy Newman scores, all had a kind of similar design, language, sense of humor. And that he really felt like we need to start stretching out what these movies can be so it doesn't start to become formulae. And I think there's a way in which you can see Finding Nemo as a buddy picture because it is Dory and Nemo on this journey together. But the nature of Dory as a character prevents it from feeling like that.

[Rebecca Alter]

I think they're going on a sort of buddy journey. And I think it's like, one of my favorite things about the movie, especially in the context of what Pixar was before, is I love when the goofy one, funny one, stupid one, is a girl. I think that was really missing in a lot of kids entertainment as the time.

[David]

At the time, it was seen as retrograde at some point or. And they stopped doing it.

[Griffin]

It was just that girls need to be perfect love interests.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yes. For the girl to be the hilarious comic relief, silly, stupid one is so awesome. And I still love that when that happens in an ensemble sitcom or something today. Cause it still is semi rare. And so Dory, I think, is, like, huge.

[Griffin]

I give him super credit for just being like, oh, Ellen would work for this. Even if it is not how I conceived this. Obviously, you know, Pixar's famous for when they picked a subject being like, let's do a ton of research and let's find story discoveries from learning about the real thing. And certainly they did a lot of that with a bug's life. He replicated that model here. He found the thing about certain fish have like five second memories.

[Rebecca Alter]

I feel like that was already a

[David]

joke about goldfish, the old goldfish memory thing.

[Griffin]

And he was like, that's kind of an interesting character challenge. And it could so easily be. That's a character you meet for five minutes in one of many segments of that movie.

[David]

That's like one bit in the movie.

[Griffin]

Right, Right. He gives himself like a real fucking tough challenge to how do you make that the other character in the dynamic and not have it be annoying?

[David]

You know who's pretty funny?

[Griffin]

Ellen DeGeneres.

[David]

Dory.

[Griffin]

Dory rules.

[Rebecca Alter]

Dory's amazing.

[David]

It's a great bit. The story's so. And Ellen is so funny in this movie. It's great.

[Griffin]

So funny. But like, how does it not to write that character and perform that character where it's not frustrating that she's the obstacle in the movie because the actual goal of the film is get to Nemo. But then the person who's joining him

[David]

in that goal, she's kind of not helping.

[Griffin]

Has her own dilemma.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

It makes it all the more satisfying when she can push through things. Sure. It makes every, like, win she has, like, so much more heartening.

[David]

But I mean, without her, Marlon is a pain.

[Griffin]

Totally.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, just not to skip ahead, but one of the big moments that breaks my heart. Yeah. Like as a kid when he abandons her.

[Griffin]

But to your point, Becca, to have this character be female, to have it be an entirely aromantic relationship between male and female adult characters, they do not. I'm going to say this on the record. Marlon and Dory do not.

[David]

I regret even saying, not only that,

[Rebecca Alter]

but you don't even want to ship them.

[Griffin]

You don't want to ship them.

[David]

Not really. This could be a nightmare couple. Yes.

[Griffin]

You don't want to ship them. It's closer to being a surrogate parenting relationship, sort of. Which is why it helps Marlin have a narrative within the film. An emotional arc of he's in trying to keep Dory safe, realizing the things he's up with Emo.

[David]

He's realizing his parenting mistakes. But he is also. Dory is also helping him overcome, like, you know, like, his anxiety, his sort of his executive function problem of kind of like never making choice. Just keep swimming, man. Like, sometimes you need someone who's just like, kind of positive energy. We got to keep going, you know, like, he'd never make it to Nemo without.

[Griffin]

Even with her condition, there's the fact that she Is an adult means that he talks to her a different way than he talks to Nemo.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right.

[David]

He can't be quite as patronizing.

[Griffin]

And when she pushes back on him, he. He listens a little bit more.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. He learns to trust.

[Griffin]

Yes. Dory rules.

[David]

Dory's good. Ellen's great.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

I love to order her lunch. Just. That's what I love to do.

[Griffin]

I mean, this. This is.

[David]

And get it right. Every time.

[Griffin]

This is the movie that saves her career.

[David]

It transforms her career.

[Griffin]

The talk show premieres this fall after this movie is released. So obviously it was already in the works.

[David]

Yeah. But she, she. You know, she has the. The failed second sitcom.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

2001 to 2002, which was called the Ellen Show.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Which is like. That's the one where it's like she is gay. Like, it's like is like baked into the show versus the first sitcom. Like, that is a revelation that comes late in the show.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And that had like Jim Gaffigan in it and stuff and Martin Mull and it was like a big CBS show and it flopped.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[David]

And it was kind of the thing like. Right. Was Ellen kind of just. Just, you know, she had Ellen. She had the show. Like, she was. She was important culturally, but like.

[Griffin]

But they were also like, they were putting her in movies. She's in wrongs. Obviously a disaster. But she's in Ed tv.

[David]

Funny. In Ed tv, she. She has a line to think about all the time.

[Griffin]

Which one?

[David]

Can I say it?

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

It's so funny. It's just a good line. It's like Rob Reiner comes in and he's like the mean bot. The mean network guy.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And there's something to do about like, you know, he's like, if you do. If this happens, I'll get you more money. And she's like, can we get coffee filters? We've been using a Yamaha. And it feels like something Ellen might have made up because that definitely sounds

[Griffin]

like an Ellen joke.

[David]

But they just have this soggy young.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Anyway, that's awesome.

[Griffin]

Sorry. She was so big in the 90s. And the arc of what happens to her is really fascinating to study now because there was just like years of speculation of she's gay. Right.

[David]

Right. What's not this saying it right. There's like short haired lady with pants.

[Griffin]

There's the Larry Sanders episode that happens like two years before she comes out where the whole premise is Rip Tor's character is pressuring Larry to be like, if we could get Ellen coming out, that would be A big boon for the show.

[David]

So Ellen's kind of winking at it within that show and within the episode.

[Griffin]

I feel like they never say it. They never put a name to it. And then the twist in that episode is that her and Larry sleep together. And he's like, I think maybe she's not, but. But much like the Seinfeld contest episode, they're never saying the word. So it was enough in the ether that she's even making jokes about the fact that she's not acknowledging it. And then they do an episode where she comes out, the character is going to be gay, and Ellen's gonna come out. It's the front page of Time magazine. Puppy episode. Yep. I'm gay with her sitting crisscross applesauce.

[David]

No, she was doing a little fun. Fun, Neil.

[Griffin]

Oh, you're right.

[Rebecca Alter]

She's doing a gayer stance than Christmas episodes.

[David]

Ellen, she's the best.

[Griffin]

But that episode. That episode is huge in the ratings. Yep, I'm gay Headlines. Right. It's one of these things where, like, she gets this huge bump of visibility and then everyone sort of applauds her. And then immediately is like, but obviously we can't, like, sell car commercials on a gay show. All the sponsors go away, the listeners.

[David]

Good point.

[Griffin]

Yeah. The viewership drops.

[David]

I'm just gonna get canceled.

[Griffin]

The show's basically canceled within a year of her coming out. And the attitude is like, thank you for your bravery, but obviously you're not part of the popular culture anymore. And then she talks about, for years fighting to be, like, hosting the Jemmys or hosting SNL when she didn't have anything to promote, trying to just get herself back out there as a comedian after all the offers had dried up.

[David]

And she ran a bookshop.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Was it a bookshop?

[Griffin]

What?

[David]

Ellen.

[Rebecca Alter]

True.

[David]

Ellen Morgan, the character in Ellen. Oh, wasn't it a bookshop? Yeah.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

It was called buy the book. Funny.

[Griffin]

But this is the movie that launches the second half of her career that reintroduces her in undeniable kind of way.

[David]

Does she make a lot of movies after this? No, because she's doing the show. Yeah. So the only movie she made after this in which she's not playing herself is Finding Dory. Is this film called Finding Dory in which she played Dory? She did play Dory and that's it. And she's never made one since.

[Griffin]

She did more specials.

[David]

She did some stand up.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

Like any movies?

[David]

No movies.

[Griffin]

Yeah. Yeah. It's just Dory from then on, I think about that.

[David]

Tweet all the time, Becca, you know what I'm talking about. Of, like, the loss of her. Of her talk show.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David]

Where she's like. She would have extracted the balance of

[Rebecca Alter]

the universe is off.

[David]

Right. She would have extracted everything usable out of Hawk 2 and, like, discarded her like a carcass. Like, Hawk Tua got to, like, have a whole year because Ellen wasn't there to just kind of be like, here is Hawk Tua. We've presented her to you. We've asked all the questions and now

[Rebecca Alter]

she can go, yeah, the, like, Ellen extraction machine.

[David]

Right, right. Like, that's how it used to be. It was like, there's a funny video of you ordering a donut in a weird way. Come talk to Ellen for an hour and then never be seen again.

[Griffin]

But it also just fascinating that Ellen went from being like, Hollywood, like, like, threw me out. They, like, said, thank you for your bravery and then, like, closed the door on me. And then she's the voice of one of the most famous and beloved animated characters of all time. Two of the highest grossing animated films in history. Right. And becomes, like, the voice of reason for every mom in America. Like, has a 20 year run of just being like. She kind of controls this, like, sliver of the national conversation of just like, I'm deciding which viral people get elevated. I'm deciding, like, what the new style and throw pillows are at target.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. It is interesting that the Ellen show starts and then this rise of viral videos and social media starts and she immediately becomes the curator of that for moms.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

And dancing. She invented dance.

[Rebecca Alter]

Ellen Bitt.

[David]

Before them, people just stood in the

[Rebecca Alter]

famous J. Nirvana sequence.

[Griffin]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I. I've heard you're training clowns, Noelle, and that's not true. And then the clown pops up out of the Jack in the puck.

[Rebecca Alter]

So there's a movie.

[Griffin]

There's a movie.

[David]

I just.

[Griffin]

You're right. She's in.

[David]

Is she coming back or is? Because I know she. She had, like, a recent ish special in the last five years.

[Rebecca Alter]

She did a documentary about gorillas.

[David]

David.

[Griffin]

Much like Alex Baldwin. She said goodbye to public life on her last tour. She said, this is the last time you'll ever see me.

[David]

It wasn't her. I didn't watch the special, but wasn't the special kind of like, yeah, I'm rich. I live in a spaceship.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, that's the one that had the clapter that went for like two full minutes.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Oh, yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

Like, it looked like it Was edited to be. She said something very self congratulatory and then they kept it all in the edit of the special and everyone claps for like an hour.

[Griffin]

It's also her addressing the me and Ellen stuff. It was like around that time she starts doing all this press and it becomes very clear that she never ever got over the anger of how everyone in the industry respond to her coming out. That even when Finding Nemo and the show bring her back to prominence, she kind of held onto this spite forever. Of like everyone commended me for doing a thing that was culturally important. And also every job dried up. Yeah. It's just fascinating. Like this movie, so much hinging on that choice to cast her.

[David]

It was the right choice. Yeah. But as we sort of said, like every casting decision in this movie is. Is pretty spot on. Even Alex Young. Alexander Gould, He's Weeds, the voice of Nemo.

[Griffin]

He's the kid from Weeds.

[David]

That's right. He was the kid on Weeds. I remember that.

[Griffin]

He had a little bowl cut.

[David]

His mom was dealing weed.

[Rebecca Alter]

It looked like a little. Like a little Nemo. Nemo's just a round little guy with a pair of eyes.

[David]

Weeds. Talk about a show that its entire premise is defunct now.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

She's like, I'm selling weed. I'm going to get in trouble with the law.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

You know, like, oh, now the cops are after me. Me, cuz I sell joints. Now you can just go to the store. Go to the store.

[Griffin]

Yeah. David.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

I know what your problem is. Uhoh. You're getting too much sleep.

[David]

All right, I have trouble sleep. What can I do?

[Griffin]

Well, you. This is a life long issue. But now you also got a house full of handfuls. It makes the sleep you can get all the more precious, does it not?

[David]

Of course, of course. And you know what's the most important thing about sleep, Griffin?

[Griffin]

Most important thing about sleep? Sawing logs, counting sheep. Hong shoe, Hong Shu. I would say closing your eyes, wearing a sleeping cap.

[David]

All very important. But no, it's the mattress.

[Griffin]

Oh.

[David]

At top which you sleep. And I have a Leesa mattress. Thanks to their wonderful partnership with us, I believe I am sleeping on a king size Leesa mattress. I want to make sure I say exactly the brand I have. I believe it's the legend. Oh, I think that's what it's called. Yes. The hybrid chill. Maybe it's just the hybrid. I'm not sure if I got the chill.

[Griffin]

I got the chill. Cause I'm a hot sleeper. I want to kill.

[David]

So the whole thing with Lisa is they've got all kinds of, you know, shapes and sizes for you. Right? You know, you want a little more firm, you want a little more soft. It's the best hack to improve your sleep. It's to address what you're sleeping on. I, for a long time, was on a less good mattress that wasn't as big. I switched to a king. I switched to a very nice Leesa mattress.

[Griffin]

You're a tall man. You have a tall wife.

[David]

It is one of the the best single life decisions I ever made in terms of just improving my quality of life.

[Griffin]

It genuinely seems so relaxed, even just recounting this.

[David]

Be in my bed now. And like, of course, I always like bed. Bed's fun.

[Griffin]

Bed is fun.

[David]

Yeah. Great to be in bed. But now I'm like, how long till I can get my bed? In fact, we have to record an episode after this and I'm like, so many hours from bed.

[Griffin]

Bed is great. And, you know, we, we've covered some of the worst beds in movies on this podcast. Will Dormer falling asleep on a dock or a pile of garbage. Rooster Cogburn bed of ropes. You don't want to be like those guys. Those guys didn't have happy ends. You want to be like a king, a legendary king sleeping on a Lisa.

[David]

So, you know, just for some things you want to know.

[Griffin]

Please, I want to know.

[David]

These are beautifully crafted mattresses. They're tailored to how you sleep. They're designed with specific sleep positions and field preferences in mind. You know, you'll sort of do a sleep quiz at the site to find your perfect match in less than two minutes. They've got free shipping, easy returns on 120 night sleep trial. Been awarded the best hybrid of memory foam mattresses by Wirecutter at the New York Times. Featured by West Elm as their go to mattress partner. And they work with local nonprofits across the US to donate thousands of mattresses each year year to families in need. With over 43,000 mattresses donated to date.

[Griffin]

Hell yes.

[David]

So go to Lisa.com for their early access July 4th sale where you're going to get 25% off select mattresses plus an extra 50 off with promo code blank check exclusive for our listeners. That's L EE E S a.com promo code blank check. Check for 25% off select mattresses plus an extra $50 off support our show and let them know we sent you after checkout. Lisa.com promo code blank check.

[Griffin]

This episode is brought to you by Starbucks. That is fire.

[David]

Whoa.

[Rebecca Alter]

That's good.

[David]

This might be the drink of the summer.

[Rebecca Alter]

Okay, I like this one too. I'm rocking with it.

[David]

Okay, try it for yourself.

[Griffin]

Starbucks refreshers concentrates are coming home. Find them in the coffee aisle and make it yours.

[David]

Mighty Nemo begins with Nemo's mom getting chomped to bits by a barracuda. What do you think? A good.

[Griffin]

I mean I do think it's an incredible opening. It also felt jarring as a Pixar obsessive seeing this opening weekend they played Knick Knack which was an older short being reissued.

[David]

Is that the one in the snow globe with the jackhammer?

[Rebecca Alter]

Yes, and the sexy lady in the other snow globe.

[Griffin]

But because of woke the sexy lady in the snow globe used to have big naturals and I think when they re released it for Nemo they made her a little more flat chested. And I have been writing angry letters to Disney every day of my life since then. I want my snow globes horny.

[David]

Those early Pixar movies, right, that's what they would do. They would show the old shorts.

[Griffin]

They would alternate because there was not as Jerry's game and for the birds, right.

[David]

They didn't have the the young kids making their own shorts in within Pixar

[Griffin]

as consistent a pipeline. So sometimes they'd be like we don't have a short ready. Let's throw up one of the old

[David]

guys knickknack out of the box.

[Griffin]

Knickknack rules.

[David]

They never did Red Stream though. Cowards.

[Griffin]

They didn't.

[David]

That's the one they never put on there.

[Rebecca Alter]

No kid wants to see that on a big screen.

[David]

The clowns really?

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh yeah. It's a bit creepy and it's in like a black void.

[David]

Yeah, that's why I liked it.

[Griffin]

It's about a unicycle, Ben. It's a movie about a unicycle who's sad that he can't get a clown to sit on his face.

[Rebecca Alter]

That sounds like a parody of a Pixar juggle. Right?

[David]

He wants to learn how to juggle with his two little pedals. Yeah, but there is a clown in it and it is weird.

[Griffin]

Where does he sit?

[David]

Well, there's only one place to sit on a unicycle.

[Griffin]

Find the lie. But knickknack plays. Then we got our fucking jumpin look. So junior guy. And then the movie like just kind of cold open straight like mid dialogue. I remember that feeling. Jarring. It does feel like a tonal shift against the other Pixar movies. That Ease you in to a reality.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

I mean, the opening line of this movie is, wow, right? You're seeing.

[Rebecca Alter]

And you're already saying that because you're looking at this digitally animated ocean that's also trending quite.

[David]

Gorgeous. Gorgeous. I saw this film by myself. I remember I was here on vacation. I had to fill some time, and I went to like, a midday screening at Regal Union Square. And it was all kids.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Because it was the summertime. Yeah. And I felt a little weird. 17 years old, but you'd go see

[Griffin]

a matinee and the theater would be filled with girls.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

I saw this movie multiple times in theaters and. And that was part of its success, was Pixar had become enough of a name brand that even people who didn't grow up with Pixar, like people who were in college when Toy Story came out, were like, guess I gotta go see the new Pixar movie.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right.

[Griffin]

The track record was just so fucking strong at this point. The opening was humongous. And then it just played throughout the entire summer. It did.

[David]

It wouldn't go away.

[Griffin]

This was the summer that everyone assumed Matrix Reloaded as the Juggernauts.

[David]

Right. And that was May. And this came out like a week later.

[Griffin]

A week later or whatever.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And then by like two months in, it was like, this has zoomed past Matrix and it keeps playing throughout the entire year, which obviously can't happen.

[David]

Zero architects. So I don't know why that happened.

[Griffin]

Just kids. Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

They need a Maravinian fish.

[David]

Oh, that. That would be fun. A French fish.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

I guess.

[Griffin]

The.

[David]

The chef.

[Rebecca Alter]

Shrimp.

[David]

Yeah, the shrimp chef. He goes.

[Griffin]

Jacques.

[David]

You know, he's done or whatever. Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

Who.

[David]

Who voices him?

[Griffin]

That's Joe Raft.

[David]

Love it.

[Griffin]

Who's also wheezy.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Oh, there's many, many voices.

[David]

Is Wheezy dead?

[Griffin]

Well, Joe Ranft is dead, sadly. Do you know what happened? Joe Ranft was working on the movie Cars.

[David]

No, what happened?

[Griffin]

He was working on the movie Cars, which I think he was maybe co director on.

[David]

Yeah. I think that was where he was rising up to right here.

[Griffin]

What's the worst way he could have died?

[Rebecca Alter]

Run over my car accident.

[David]

That's really sad.

[Rebecca Alter]

So who else died is the 399. Eggs in coral.

[Griffin]

And then never forget about the 399.

[David]

I do feel like they have. That's why they do it as like, fish do have hundreds of children. So they have to come up with this kind of plotty way that he's like a. It's like a one Father, one son.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's like how Judy Hopps has like a hundred siblings.

[David]

But it's. Do not get me started on that.

[Griffin]

It's what's really smart about the setup, I think too, where you're like, what is the only circumstance in which a parent would be this obsessive over a one child? And it's where they make these choices of, like, when is the characterization being dictated more by the behavior of fish versus the behavior of humans? And with Marlin, they find this exact midpoint where you're like, well, if fishes have hundreds of children, they couldn't be this helicoptery. But if he has a traumatic event that gives him only one child, then is he just like a neurotic parent in the early 2000s? I also think, to my point of just like this thing that Stanton was able to identify of how to make animated characters be grown up. Like, this is a movie in which Nemo's the title character, but Nemo is the third lead. The two leads are grown ups. True and same with Monsters Inc. And Toy Story and A Bug's Life that all have kids in them, but the kids are supporting and the grownups talk like modern grownups. And when we enter into this scene, what's immediately kind of comfortable about it is that it has the vibe of a couple who have been looking at houses all day. Day.

[David]

Yeah, right, right.

[Griffin]

That you. You feel the. Where their in jokes are, how they needle each other couple. The satisfaction of, you know what? You're right. This place is good. And then how immediately that paradise is destroyed by this barracuda.

[David]

That's the villain of the movie. Griffin. Yeah, Barracuda.

[Griffin]

Barracuda. Yeah, Barracuda.

[David]

Anyway, years later, cut to Nemo lives he has sucked up Finn.

[Griffin]

I know we're just hyper fixating on the first scene of this movie alone, but in my opinion, for how large the trauma of the Barracuda. And as you said, like many parents who are just like, I just don't show this scene to my kid. It is funny that when you look at it, the Barracuda is still cartoonish looking like. Has like a big goofy googly eye.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's like a scary cartoon.

[Griffin]

It's also like a perfect kind of trauma by implication, where you see the moment where she clocks the Barracuda. I know.

[David]

And then she looks down.

[Griffin]

He notices it because she's no longer riffing with him.

[Rebecca Alter]

Him.

[Griffin]

He's inside the anemone.

[David]

You are fixating on this.

[Griffin]

He peeks out. Yes, there's perfect fucking acting of her eyeline changing to the barracuda and trying to game out. If she can make the move to protect the eggs.

[David]

How's she going to protect him? She's just one fish.

[Griffin]

And then Marlon gets hit by the tail. Blackout. You don't see her die. You just have him wake up to her not being there. And only the one egg with the

[David]

crack egg in the fins. The crack is washed. Why he has a. That's the. The bum reasoning.

[Griffin]

He's lucky.

[David]

I don't think those eggs can really crack. Cuz they're like jelly. But like, who cares?

[Griffin]

Lucky Finn.

[David]

Yes. So they live in an anemy.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Marlin and Nemo. And Nemo wants to start school. I guess it's sort of a September cuz the year is starting.

[Griffin]

He's been eager to start. Marlin keeps holding him back. He has to remember to brush his anemone.

[David]

Brown fish live six to 10 years in the wild. 10 to 20 in an aquarium.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[Rebecca Alter]

Should have kept him at the dentist.

[Griffin]

Well, Dory will get to the aquarium.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

It's a thing that Stanton said also when he saw that picture of them poking out of the anemone and said like, oh, what about clownfish? Then he looked into it and he was like. Clownfish live in anemones and rarely leave that he. There was like a gift in researching the species of. Oh, they live in this weird security net that also can sting them. Them and try not to leave the bubble. I think it is a really smart characterization choice. They dialed in the exact right amount of anxiety that Marlin can have. Because there's an insufferable version of this movie where Marlin is like, Beau is afraid.

[David]

Where he is at danger out of every corner. Right.

[Griffin]

That he literally doesn't want to leave the anemone. There's something in the fact. And even just the way he's doing bits with Nemo at the beginning where. Where it's like he wants to think of himself as a funny guy. He wants to think of himself as not being too uptight.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. The neighborhood dads like know him already.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Rebecca Alter]

Once he gets to the drop off.

[David]

This is true.

[Griffin]

Everyone tries to relate to him like a normal person. And then he just always puts a little too much in it. He always gets a little too wound up.

[David]

Can't tell the joke. And no one's mean. But I like when he's fucking up the joke. They're just like. You know, like they're all the dads are just like, can we stop?

[Griffin]

Yes. The one guy Just goes for clownfish. He's not very funny. And then the other guy goes, pity.

[David]

It's a jellyfish. A seahorse. And I'm trying to think the dad.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's the type of fish of the one who says I'm obnoxious.

[Griffin]

Yes. Which is Dewey from Malcolm. And the metal.

[Rebecca Alter]

Which might be a yellow tang.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

Or an angelfish.

[Griffin]

I think that's.

[David]

No, no, no. So Dory is a blue tang.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. But here I am speaking about a yellow tang.

[David]

Oh, yeah. No, you're right.

[Griffin]

There's that bird fish. You're saying something different, David. And this is why you listen to.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, no, Bubbles. Bubbles is a yellow tank.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Bubbles is a yellow tang.

[Rebecca Alter]

So these might be angelfish.

[David]

Oh, not to be confused, though, with Pooty Tang. No, Pootang is in the film, but you have to look for them.

[Griffin]

Let's also say we've invoked Bubbles, but we're not yet getting to the root of the matter. We will do that later. Okay.

[David]

Root of the matter. Willem Dafoe is an angelfish.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

Bubbles is a yellow tang.

[Rebecca Alter]

So what's the kit?

[David]

A butterfly fish.

[Griffin]

Cool.

[David]

The others are a flapjack octopus, which is those octopuses with, like, the cute little legs that kind of go like.

[Rebecca Alter]

She is adorable.

[David]

And the. A seahorse. So it's not a jellyfish. It's an octopus.

[Griffin]

Her one tendril shorter than the others, but you never notice when she curls them like this.

[David]

Jellyfish in this movie are like angler fish in that they seem to lack a consciousness, AKA eyes.

[Rebecca Alter]

Well, jellyfish in real life.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

Definitely don't have a brain.

[David]

They don't have a brain. I mean, my daughter has endless questions for me about jellyfish, which I fully sent because we go to the aquarium all the time.

[Griffin]

I was gonna say, like, four times

[David]

a day you go the best place on earth. But, like, where she is, she has really reasonable questions of just like, why and how. Like, why do they exist? And then what's. What is this? Like, where's. And I'm like, how do they eat? How do they. And I'm like, I don't really know, man. They're weird. Jellyfish are weird. You ever been sung by jellyfish Question in the room?

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, yeah, me too.

[David]

Stinks.

[Rebecca Alter]

It really hurts.

[David]

Sucks. Fucking sucks. You ever get peed on? Yeah, but not for that reason.

[Rebecca Alter]

Just for fun, we packed sand on it. Oh, sorry. I fully wasn't fine.

[David]

I think peeing doesn't really work. And sand possibly does. Right.

[Rebecca Alter]

A bit more.

[David]

Yes. Peeing is one of those classic old wives tales things.

[Griffin]

It does feel like as much as he's trying to break out of a sense of a Pixar formula that was starting to codify at this point. This is the most traditional Pixar move of. Now let's do eight minutes of basically blackout gags of what's funny about Fish.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right, Right.

[Griffin]

Like, has this the second Andy leaves the room and you're like, what's every character's game? I feel like certainly Monsters Inc. Has this with Mike and Sully walking through Monstropolis the first time. And you're like, okay, how does a monster city work? You have all of this. Which also feels like it's him knowing you have to counterbalance the trauma of what just happened in the movie. It's nice that they have a nice dynamic, but also, kids need to feel comfortable now.

[David]

It's very economical. You get right to Nemo going away without it feeling rushed, you know, getting in trouble.

[Griffin]

And it's basically. I mean, like, Nemo is taken at like minute 14 and I think Dory enters at minute 16. Like, he basically gets both of those things set up within the first 15 minutes of the movie.

[David]

Movie, of course. Right. Their school is that they will ride on the back of a manta ray

[Griffin]

and he'll tell them things about singing teacher named Mr. Ray.

[David]

He's just so good.

[Griffin]

Who likes diffusing conflict.

[David]

Right. Who's Right. Very, very good at handling interpersonal, interfacial.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, it's cool to have a teacher who's also sort of also the bus.

[Griffin]

Yes. Great. Great point. And the other parents are commending Marlin for seeming kind of chill, even if he's not funny.

[David]

But then Nemo, he pushes a little too far. He's encouraged by the other boys.

[Griffin]

What also happens, he finds out that the day he's finally letting his son go to school also is the day they're going to the drop off.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

The dads are giving him credit.

[David]

Edge of the Reef.

[Griffin]

Yeah. You seem pretty sure I was stressed out. Right. And then that's. I. I regret it. I never should have let him do this. He runs out, he embarrasses Nemo in front of his friends, and Nemo feels the need to rebel. He's going to touch the.

[Rebecca Alter]

He's gonna touch the butt.

[Griffin]

Classic comedy.

[Rebecca Alter]

And it's also nice to have the comedy there because that's hilarious if you're a kid. And it helps diffuse the situation a little bit, which is very scary.

[Griffin]

It is an acting moment that I Love in this film, Nemo's silent performance of challenging his father to touch the butt. And they play it like Nemo is in, like, an FBI standoff where he won't break eye contact and he just taps it really quickly and in intensely.

[David]

I love the kid going, yeah, it's really funny.

[Griffin]

But there's also such a loud smack sound when he hits the butt. There's so much force on it. And his point is proven. He's ready to swim back to his father. Unfortunately, a big, bad dentist, right?

[David]

The deep sea divers come. One puts Nemo in a Ziploc bag. The other one really rudely takes a picture of Marlin.

[Griffin]

A detail I love is that when the flash goes off on Marlin, Marlin reacts by turning sideways and his eye goes walleyed. So it's like. Like the pose in the photo is what a fish would look like versus a cartoon fish.

[David]

I thought about that.

[Griffin]

It's a really quick gap.

[David]

His fish's eyes go this way, but in the movie they have to.

[Griffin]

He becomes flush and pointing out. I remember reading a fucking, like, screenplay guidebook that was showing how all Hollywood movies fit into, you know, certain storytelling formulas. And it tried to argue that the dentist is the antagonist of this movie. Movie, which is wrong. The antagonist of this movie is Marlin's anxiety.

[David]

Yes. Right. That is what needs to be overcome and defeated.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

I mean, also, Nemo does get captured in that. It does suck. It's a problem. No one's villainous, Right?

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Rebecca Alter]

But it is the same as these creatures just doing what they're want to do.

[David]

Right.

[Rebecca Alter]

All through the ocean, like the seagulls are. They're not villains, but they're not sympathetic.

[Griffin]

You could argue that the obstructions that almost feel malevolent in the movie are not circle of life, but, like, just the survival of the fittest mechanisms. Right. Of just. This is the ecosystem of how fish survive in relationship to each other. But there's also, like, the reason why the tank stuff doesn't feel stagnant is Gill is able to kind of teach Nemo the thing that Marlin's afraid to teach him, that Marlow Marlin is so Nemo. Philip Marlow Marlin is so terrified by what he perceives as Nemo's weakness because of the lucky Finn, that he wants to teach him how to live a life devoid of risk and is overcorrecting. And Gill is someone who similarly is, like, scarred and empowers Nemo to feel like he has the ability to actually do things.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, we'll get into his initiation ritual. But I love that they give him that little thing to feel brave. Ahu.

[David]

Ahi, ahi. Okay, so Marlon bangs into Dory trying to find you. Bangs into Dory immediately. She can't help him.

[Griffin]

Perfect character introduction. Well, of course, I know. Right this way. And then while he's following her, she starts doing the panicked looking over her shoulder, who's this creepy guy? And then she does the aggro like, you got. You got a problem?

[Rebecca Alter]

Huh?

[Griffin]

Huh?

[David]

It's a tossed off joke, obviously. It then becomes the premise of an entirely new movie.

[Griffin]

It runs in my family. At least I think it does.

[David]

I think it does. Where are they? Makes me laugh so hard every time.

[Griffin]

It's just a two shot that holds for like 10 seconds of silence.

[David]

I laugh and thinking about it.

[Griffin]

And then she looks back and she goes, hi, I'm Dory. That it's one. It's one run on thought.

[Rebecca Alter]

The timing is so good, right?

[David]

Where are they? It's just so fucking funny because like, you never need to explain it. The whole movie then explains it. But the dad is fucking pattern baldness, blue tang or whatever. We'll get to that.

[Griffin]

Yeah, but the movie's been moving so fast up until this point that when you have that sustained two shot of just letting the joke rhythm of Ellen drive the movie, it feels like a nice reset point.

[David]

Dorian him. Then pretty much the next thing is the sharks, right?

[Rebecca Alter]

Like pretty much run into bruises.

[David]

This is the one thing in the movie that always felt an eensy bit cute to me.

[Griffin]

The entire shark dynamic, the self help therapy speak stuff.

[Rebecca Alter]

I don't love the trope of characters. Same with Wreck It Ralph. In group therapy. Group therapy or in a blank. Anonymous.

[David]

Overdone.

[Griffin]

It's not my favorite. Now can I play devil's advocate and say this was pretty early in that it is wildly overdone now.

[David]

I remember not liking it in 2003. 3.

[Griffin]

We must acknowledge that the sharks were kind of the immediate breakout characters. Bruce was big. Bruce had a big summer.

[David]

Well, Bruce is the breakout character.

[Griffin]

Well, Dory's a movie star. Dory's like a leading lady. Like Dory's first.

[Rebecca Alter]

Dory's first on the call. She's like.

[David]

She's an ingenue.

[Rebecca Alter]

No, but one of the big posters,

[David]

of course, is Bruce's biggest face in the back. I love, of course, that it's the great Barry Humphries. Dame Edna herself playing scary. And then Eric Bana. And who's the third one?

[Griffin]

Interesting. So the third shark in this dynamic is played by Bruce Spence. Now, here's what's interesting about this guy. And hold onto your seats. He played the gyrocopter pilot in The Road Warrior, aka Mad Max 2.

[Rebecca Alter]

Whoa. Whoa.

[Griffin]

He's also Tian Medon in Star Wars Episode 3 Revenge of the Sith.

[David]

This very year, he is the train man. Because Ratrix Revolutions is out in just a few months.

[Griffin]

David. He was arguably and king of the box office in 2003, except he got

[David]

cut out a lot of the money. Rings.

[Griffin]

Entertainment Weekly did a little sidebar in their 2003 year in review where they said he was the highest grossing actor because he had Matrix Revolutions and Finding Nemo. And if he had made the cut of Return of the King, I think he would have had $2 billion in box office.

[Rebecca Alter]

Wow. It's like how Jonathan Bailey was king of the box office last year.

[David]

Now, now why is that? Well, apart from. Oh, because Drake, Jurassic. Was that last year? Yeah, was that. But last year it was that he saw a dinosaur.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

And went, oh, cool.

[Griffin]

He cried.

[David]

Kennedy was the scarecrow. Yes. Ben. I like the shark house.

[Griffin]

Thank you. I like that they live around bombs.

[David]

The bombs attached to chains are awesome. The bombs are cool and them being blown up is cool. It is funny that Ben's like, attached to chains. Not just bums, my friend.

[Griffin]

No, let's not forget.

[David]

And I like a shipwreck too.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

I also feel like, what is it? Chum and what's the other shark's name?

[David]

Crunch or Crush? Let me find out.

[Rebecca Alter]

Anchor. Anchor. Chum and Bruce.

[Griffin]

Anchor and Chum.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[David]

Oh, Crush is the turtle, right? Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

And Anchor is a hammerhead.

[Griffin]

Yes. And Chum has the hook through his face. They just feel like very Ben characters. Specifically Anchor and Chum.

[David]

They should get their own movie. But yeah, like the joke obviously, right, is they. They don't eat fish anymore or what will they be eating? Doesn't really come up.

[Griffin]

Kelp or some shit. But I just think this was like real vegans.

[David]

I think sharks need, like, a tremendous amount of food to operate.

[Griffin]

Right. Like, I think this is incredibly well staged action sequence.

[Rebecca Alter]

It is.

[David]

It's incredibly well done. Yeah. And the bomb's exploding. Dory's. Dory's blood coming out of her nose. And then the way his eyes change. Like shark eyes. Yes. He just starts tripping. That's good. They're like, no, no, Mike, don't do it, Mike. You know, that's really funny.

[Griffin]

I think, I think, like, several points in this movie In a film that you would not classify as an action film, Stanton kind of like pulls off a fish version of an Indiana Jones sequence where even. Just like Bruce leading them through the establishment of the mines in the sea. Right? Like all the sort of visual stuff it needs to teach you. That's then going to pay off in the sequence. The missile silo that they can hide out in. How they can activate that to get rid of Bruce. Which then even has the comedy within it of anchor and chum jumping in between Bruce's bites to apologize for his behavior. And it's just all like. He keeps teaching you things that don't feel like overstated setups that pay off in very satisfying ways where then you can just have action happen with real tension. Because, you know, this is a universe in which death can happen. Characters can die in this movie. Movie and still get jokes in. Ben's laughing at how excited I am.

[David]

Dory is so funny when she forgets that they're being chased and then launches the missile so that they go back towards the shark. Right?

[Griffin]

Yes. Yes. This is.

[David]

Oh, any Dory joke like that works.

[Griffin]

We should call this out, too. This is the other thing is that Dory can read English even though she can't remember things. That's the reason that Marlin has to stick with her. Because the only thing they have to lead them towards Nemo is the address written on her back.

[David]

42.

[Rebecca Alter]

All the way during this is when they find the goggles, the diver's goggles. He clocks them. We learn she can read English because she sees the sign that says escape.

[Griffin]

Yes. Right. Right. This kind of perfect. Like, he's stuck with her because she can do a thing that he can't do even if she doesn't understand what she's doing. And she's constantly getting it wrong. But then in this, like, chain of events, it's like going after the goggles and the snap of the elastic band is what causes her to bleed, which is. Activates Bruce.

[David]

Yeah. She's so good. Even just doing the kind. I'm fine. I'm fine. You know, like the.

[Griffin]

This is also a character design that

[David]

should not be like a plausible nosebleed coming out of it.

[Griffin]

Yeah, I love these things. She's so fucking narrow. Her face is basically a pencil when

[Rebecca Alter]

head on with eyes sticking out either side.

[Griffin]

Right. And she's just got, like, a nose bump and a mouth.

[David]

There's a lot of blue tangs at the Brooklyn Aquarium, the New York Aquarium. And my daughter said. I was like, dory There she is.

[Griffin]

This is an incredibly difficult actual species to get emotion.

[David]

I got no notes. Yeah, I got no notes in any of the animation in this movie. I think it's perfect. I think it's the apex of Pixar. Yeah, I really do.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

I mean, maybe Ratatouille, like Ratatouille has such a beautiful kind of like approach to all of its things.

[Rebecca Alter]

I think this is a better movie.

[David]

Well, that's okay, everyone relax. We're all saying stuff.

[Griffin]

This is the five star tier for me, right? The two Toy Stories, Monsters, Inc. Finding Nemo, Ratatouille, Incredibles. Those are the ones at the very, very top of the heap for me. Those are like perfect movies in my opinion. I do think Stanton is the guy within Pixar who starts getting most fascinated by the idea that in computer animation you can simulate a camera camera in a way that you can't in hand drawn. And he pushes that really far. In Wally, where Wally is really selling the illusion of there is a human operator like Wally, has delayed zooms and shit like that.

[David]

I know this is basically spoiling our list, but do you like this more than Wally? Where are you there? I'm not sure where I am.

[Griffin]

I think Wally's a little bit more imperfect than this film. The ecstatic highs of wise also. You just have to think about when that movie got announced and it was like, Andrew Stanton is making a robot rom com in the style of silent films. I lost my fucking mind. When it was like, he's making a robot Buster Keaton movie. It felt like they had designed a film specifically for me.

[David]

That makes sense. Becca.

[Rebecca Alter]

Huh?

[David]

Wally or Nemo?

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, Nemo. Like, Wally is like, I love Ratatouille. So much so that that's not far behind Nemo. But Wally, I have a harder time with the things that are imperfect about it.

[David]

But you think this is Stanton's best film? Maybe. But Wally's more of a great look. This is the debate. This is the grand debate we'll have over these six weeks.

[Griffin]

I guess it's like a Godfather versus Apocalypse now situation where you're like every.

[David]

Oh, that's interesting. I don't find that a tough situation anymore. I recently rewatched Apocalypse now and was like, I think I can see like this movie has left.

[Griffin]

It's a messy movie.

[David]

It's such a big movie for me as a teen. Obviously, it's incredible.

[Griffin]

I also think, like, the most ecstatic things that movie can accomplish are part and parcel with its messiness.

[David]

Right? Totally.

[Griffin]

Which feels the Same as Wally to me, where I'm like, wally is like a couple steps off of being perfect for me. But if it was perfect, it maybe wouldn't able to achieve the weird things it's able to pull off. But this film, it feels like Stanton is. With really fucking limited technology at this time, speaking still. And this shit's so fucking expensive to do. And they talk about the methods they had to develop and the strategies of how to stop it from costing, like, $500 million. How do you continue to visually maintain the relationship between the characters and the water they're in?

[David]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[Griffin]

Like in Shark Tale, it's just characters floating in this. They're like, we can't in every shot show the bubbles or the waves of their fin motion. We can't always show the distortion of. Of, you know, the thickness of the water at this point at different levels in the darkness or whatever. But they choose their battles really well. They're all these insane hacks they do where basically they create one texture surface, which is the surface of the water whenever they're peeking their heads up above. And then they copy that and put a different layer on top of it to make it the ocean floor. So basically the sand and the water are the same element, but one is fixed and one is in motion. Similarly, they couldn't figure out how to make the anemone. And the Monsters Inc. Team, which was working on the other side of the studio, had cracked the fur thing, right? And someone went, oh, if you take a ball of fur and then, like, size it up like crazy so every strand is really thick.

[Rebecca Alter]

Whoa.

[Griffin]

Then the anemone is just overgrown hair. So there's stuff in, like, animation that's like when you hear stories about Sam Raimi figuring out a hack for, like. Like, how to pull off a special effect in a cheap way that this movie is using to, like, insane effect because none of it feels like shortcuts. And it's just so painterly and beautiful. And even just the fucking. The lighting on this movie.

[Rebecca Alter]

I wanted to bring up the lighting especially because we're in a crisis in 2026. The color, where it's so thoughtfully done,

[Griffin]

so vivid and beautiful. And Pixar is like a big part of their process is what they call the color script, where they do these pastel kind of storyboards, not of every shot, but basically of every sequence to look at the color tones of the

[Rebecca Alter]

movie, which is like a classic Disney 50s type thing as well, to establish

[Griffin]

the moods of, like, when is it brightest? And when is it coldest? And when do you need to establish a tone of things feeling ominous versus sad, you know? And I think this movie uses the, like, depths of the ocean to convey those things. Things get brighter when they're closer to the surface.

[David]

Very cool.

[Griffin]

Where you see more reflection of the light. Obviously.

[David]

The whole anglerfish sequence, you know, is such a bravura demonstration of all that. You know, the light on the anglerfish.

[Rebecca Alter]

So they get away, and pretty quickly they're swimming down to retrieve.

[Griffin]

Right. When they get away from Bruce, that's when they come across the anglerfish.

[Rebecca Alter]

They don't get a second. Teresa.

[Griffin]

No, it's.

[David]

Yeah, it's. You know how male anglerfish reproduce? How, you know. Right.

[Griffin]

They suck their own decks. I'm taking a guess.

[David]

They're little and they fuse to the girl anglerfish and, like, melt into her and just leave behind their balls. And then the female anglerfish uses the balls to, like, make atlay eggs.

[Griffin]

Do they come and get the balls back?

[David]

No, they die. That's the end for them. They die, mate. You know, they're just like, go out on top. Exactly.

[Griffin]

I mean, nice work if you can get it.

[David]

And it's one of those, like, dimorphism things where, like, the woman is, like. The woman.

[Griffin]

The woman.

[David]

The female. English is 10 times bigger than the male or whatever.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. Like, the ocean floor stuff brings up, like, deep sea is as scary and unknowable as outer space. Of course, the creatures that are in it are alien. This one looks like an HR Giger alien. Like, it's terrifying.

[Griffin]

This is a great call. I mean, James Cameron taught us about the aliens of the deep and the ghosts of the abyss.

[David]

Ghost of the abyss. Alien to the deep. That's right.

[Griffin]

I think it is very smart that this movie avoids. Yeah.

[David]

They can't go down there.

[Griffin]

If you were to anthropomorphize the deep sea creatures more, it would feel like this is a bad neighborhood in a way that was coded very dangerously.

[Rebecca Alter]

Leave that shit for sharp tale.

[Griffin]

Exactly. Right. It makes it much easier to just be like, this is basically outer space and we don't understand the rules of what's happening here. These characters don't have faces that you can, like, understand or talk to.

[David]

Yeah. I feel like if. If it had a voice, it would be too scary for kids.

[Griffin]

Totally.

[David]

Like, breathing. It's already kind of scary. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin]

And it's. Right. It's selective which characters can't speak. It's the ones where even Just being around them is potentially a danger, you know.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[David]

So to move on from the, you know, from this, like, pretty quickly. We are also in the tank. Right. Like around this time is when we're sort of cutting over to the tank. I was looking.

[Griffin]

I feel like the tank basically comes in 30 minutes in. We stay with just marlin and dory for a while. No. Excuse me. It's right after the brew sequence because the bomb goes off. It cuts to the two birds and the one who thinks the other one far. Some really good tension release gags and

[Rebecca Alter]

a really good way to bridge ocean world and silly dentist world.

[Griffin]

So the tank comes in minute 25.

[Rebecca Alter]

Cool. And the tank is like, we've already. At this point, we've already been introduced to, like 12 incredible characters. Let's throw in a whole perfect little chamber piece sitcom ensemble of characters who are going absolutely stir crazy.

[David]

You got Gil, Willem Dafoe. Yeah, Willem Dafoe.

[Griffin]

Baby Jane Doe.

[David]

Sorry, I'm being a. Catherine Lanasa.

[Griffin]

Baby Cheeto.

[Rebecca Alter]

What name is J. Doe.

[David]

Baby J Doe. There's a Baby J Do in the Pit, Season 2. Early on, there is a abandoned baby.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

And Catherine Lanasa.

[Rebecca Alter]

Who's gonna look over this baby chain?

[David]

There's a baby chain dump.

[Griffin]

Sounds good.

[David]

Yeah, it rocks.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And like, pit fandom, which is very normal, not toxic at all. Totally. Right. One of the recurring jokes about this season is like, they're always like predictions for finale. Baby Jane Doe, you know, saves the day. You know, like, she will have laser vision, you know, that they keep being like this abandoned base.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. Someone was like, I've seen the ending. And just. I won't spoil it, but don't look up Baby Jane Doe and rocket launcher.

[Griffin]

I. I don't say this lightly.

[David]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Griffin]

But just three shows I don't engage with. In the last four months, I've just been reading insane headlines about the way the fandom is treating these actors.

[David]

It's broken containment. Like, right, like that.

[Griffin]

You are reading about fandom needs to die.

[David]

It really does.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's really what's happening in pit world. The.

[Griffin]

That was happening to the heated rivalry guys. I'm like, this isn't good. But I'm not surprised. That's driven on a sort of Team Edward. Team Jacob over obsession with.

[David]

But blankies are great. We love your money. I mean, and your fandom. Easy, easy, easy, easy.

[Griffin]

But then, like, the pit, that's been happening. And then there was the Percy Jackson kid was like, I can't go to prom.

[Rebecca Alter]

Harassing Whoever. Whoever he takes to prom. The fans are going to send death threats.

[Griffin]

He was basically like, the fans have, like, tracked down every girl in my high school class and is sending death threats saying, like, you better not go on a date with him because he belongs to me.

[David]

Oh, my God.

[Griffin]

Everyone needs to change.

[David]

It's just. But it's the Internet and it's the way the algorithms feed and all that, that it's so crazy.

[Griffin]

But Pit is the last show I would expect to have that, of course. And I just keep reading these.

[David]

I think that's why it took everyone by surprise where they're like, I went. It's. It's a. Like a sober hospital procedural. And everyone's just like, I can't believe that Robbie did that. It's like he's a fictional character.

[Griffin]

But then they're, like, angry at which actors aren't coming back when it's not.

[David]

Oh, they're being. They're. They're being real normal about everything, this group. Okay, so we got just.

[Griffin]

Right. And then it's like sitcom all stars, right? It's like, Brad Garrett, he's the puffer fish. We have Allison Cheney from the West Wing.

[David]

We love her.

[Griffin]

Stephen Roof from News Radio. Brad Garrett from Every Loves Raymond, obviously. Vicky Lewis, also from News Radio. Austin Pendleton is ggle.

[David]

He's. I mean, he's. He's a guy, you know, theater actor, million movies.

[Griffin]

You know, we love Max from the Muppet Movie. And then Joe Ran is Joe Ray. But immediately everyone has their bit.

[David]

He's clean.

[Griffin]

Nemo wakes up and sees all the scary imagery of the, like, aquarium toys and everything. You feel like, okay, so this is going to be, like, analogous to him being in prison now, and he's stuck with a bunch of scary inmates. And then immediately it's like, no, this is like a mental hospital.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, it's Cuckoo's Nest.

[Griffin]

They all have conditions. Right?

[David]

Right. So, okay, let me try. So Gil is scarred, and he's kind of battle, you know?

[Rebecca Alter]

And we learned he also has a bad fin.

[David]

He's got a bad fin, too. They never stopped him.

[Griffin]

I don't know if you've noticed this. The scarring pattern on his face is basically one to one with Platoon.

[David]

I was about to say it's Platoon. Right.

[Griffin]

They give him the same scars. Dafoe plays it so straight. But also, I think it's, like, incredibly warm in this movie.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. He's an alternate father figure.

[David]

I know. I want Gil to believe in me.

[Griffin]

He's so good. Because you're just like there's a universe in which they go. Like, the joke is, you're really intense.

[David]

He's the drill sergeant.

[Griffin]

You play it really seriously and at the end you show a little bit of warmth. But even from the beginning, he's playing the vulnerability of this guy.

[David]

It's important too, that he was the only fish that ever lived in the ocean. Yeah, he is. The rest of them are tankies. Yeah. Brad the puffer fish. So he. Sometimes he goes puff mode. I guess that's his problem. He doesn't really have any other problems.

[Griffin]

He's got like a hair trigger anxiety response.

[David]

Right, right.

[Griffin]

It's the equivalent of having, like, panic attacks or whatever, I guess.

[David]

Peach. Peach is kind of maybe the most balanced, but she's a bit of a

[Griffin]

goth gossip, I guess, and I know it all.

[David]

Yeah. Bubbles. Loves bubbles.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

He's obsessed with the bubbles.

[Griffin]

He's ocd and he's obsessed with the little treasure chest that releases bubbles and trying to keep them in there.

[David]

One of the great fish tank toys. If not, I think the top or I guess.

[Griffin]

No, Gurgle's the one who's ocd. Yeah, Gurgle's a freak.

[David]

And then. And then Deb. I just love the idea that she's obsessed with her own reflection.

[Griffin]

This is my sister Flo, who she thinks is liar. She tells Nemo not to trust.

[David]

So funny.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's really good. Yeah.

[Griffin]

And then Jacques is just a. A high status, elitist Frenchman.

[David]

He's kind of good, actually.

[Griffin]

Shock rolls.

[David]

So they all want out, though, right? Like, they all want out of the tank and they have, like, you know, a sort of developing plan that Nemo fits into.

[Griffin]

He's dropped into a great escape situation where it's like there have been years of failed plans. They keep on trying things that don't work. And Emo feels to them like he offers some new opportunities, specifically in the fact that he's small.

[David]

Right, Right.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yep.

[David]

He can go into the filter and put the stone in the fan and.

[Griffin]

But speaking to how complete the kind of vision of this movie was when Stanton wrote it, the major changes you hear about in the film are taking out things that were gilding the lily rather than needing to figure out how to ultimately get to things. So, like, you know, unwinding the flashback structure, he originally had Gill be more of a I don't know whether to trust this guy or not character. He played him more scary up top.

[David]

Sure.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

There's a scene where Nemo gets Gill to open up and talk about what happened to him and how he ended up in the tank. And he tells this whole story about his family that went missing and where he came from. And then Nemo finds out later in the movie that Gil has been lying. It's like a joker, do you want to know how I got these scars? Thing? And that every detail that Gil told him is in a picture book that's in the dentist's waiting room that he hears a kid read. And he was just like, we don't need this.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Just let Gil be actually invested in helping this kid.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. This movie is already stuffed to the gill.

[Griffin]

Right. There were originally two seagulls and how

[David]

many comedy points there? Come on.

[Griffin]

One trillion comedy points. One trillion.

[Rebecca Alter]

I now owe you comedy points.

[Griffin]

You're in debt. There were originally two seagulls, or not seagulls. What is it? Pelican. Oh, yeah, Right. So the one who ends up trying to eat them was originally a fully developed character, and there was kind of a good and bad pelican, and Nigel's trying to protect them, and this other one's trying to eat them. And they were just like, none of this is necessary because they already have the seagulls. Right.

[David]

That's their thing.

[Griffin]

But I love Nigel as a character as just this kind of like, Jeffrey Rush. Just playing warm, Right? Just playing like a lad who just loves coming in because he likes dentistry. Right.

[David]

It's funny how they all know about dentistry. Yeah, it's awesome because they've been in this tank all these years, but they're stuck.

[Griffin]

Nigel comes and visits of his own.

[David]

He likes to hear the, like, dentist update.

[Griffin]

What's the guy gossip?

[David]

Which will he using?

[Rebecca Alter]

It's funny because it's like they are out. They are watching the dentistry. Like, television. They're so invested.

[Griffin]

Right. But for them, it's also like studying their captor to be like, where are the vulnerabilities?

[David]

What's genius about Nigel, too, is you immediately recognize that is how they are gonna get out of there.

[Griffin]

This is what I'm talking about. It's like, there's such intentionality of this story that anytime a character's introduced, you're like, what's the function they're gonna serve? And anytime you're shown a visual element, you're sort of like, oh, right, he could keep people in his beak. And none of it. It's all what everyone talks about. Being the ideal of what you want to achieve in dramatic storytelling and especially in film narratives is surprising but inevitable. How can you, in 90 minutes, pay off the things that felt like they were. They had to happen. But yet when they happen, they don't feel deep rigor.

[David]

You really locked into this movie. I. I've seen it so many times.

[Griffin]

I've seen so many.

[David]

I mean, so am I. Yeah.

[Griffin]

But I. I truly, I. This is one of my go to I can't sleep movies. This is like a real comfort movie for me. And, you know, we were talking about. We did our Edge of Tomorrow episode on Patreon, which I guess will have just come out or recently come out.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right.

[Griffin]

And we were talking about how you will often identify a sleep movie and watch it like literally every night for like a couple of months, pretty much. And then you kind of like squeeze all the juice out of it and you move on to something new for a while. Yeah. Nemo has just been in the rotation for 20 years.

[Rebecca Alter]

For me, I probably haven't seen this movie until I rewatched it Yesterday in over 15 years or something. And it was like, I know every

[Griffin]

word, I know every line.

[Rebecca Alter]

I know every scene. A lot of the lines are also so catchy, so sticky. This is like full of just these effortless, feeling catchphrases. It's not like donke catchphrases.

[Griffin]

It's like, no, they're not dumb jokes. And so much of it is the specificity so memorable. The actor makes a really interesting choice in the rhythm of their line delivery or the character, the design of the character that is saying that thing and the animation of what they do when they're saying it.

[David]

So where do we leave off? Well, we've done the tank for a while, the Dory thing. They escape the anglerfish. They escape the anglerfish.

[Griffin]

We go from the tank to the anglerfish fish.

[David]

And then it is when basically, like, Dory doesn't absorb the directions of, like, avoid the jellyfish. And they go into the jellyfish.

[Rebecca Alter]

So.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Or is this Marlon's fault?

[Rebecca Alter]

It does. It's Marlon's fault.

[David]

She sort of remembers that they shouldn't do it. And Marlin's like, what are you talking about? This is the right way. Because the. The, like, school of fish.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

They're like, they don't. Or they keep in person. That's John Ratzenberger.

[Griffin]

That's John Rattenberger.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. So we're going to get back to the Grumpy Gus and an amazing.

[Griffin]

He's like, you have Marlon. Yeah, you have Marlon dejected that they lost the goggles. Right. And that's when Dory introduces the Just keep swimming to Cheer him up that she's also invested in him.

[Rebecca Alter]

She was able with the angler fish because he used the light like a reading light. She was able to do. P. Sherman, 42 Wallaby Way, Sydney. They've lost the goggles. But this is. For the first time, she's learning to remember.

[Griffin]

Yeah. Which I just think is so elegantly done that it's a gradual thing rather than at one moment. Suddenly you have your payoff moments with her. You have the. Like, her making the emotional plea to him that, like, when I'm with you, I remember things. And you have the moment where the whole Nemo thing comes flashing back to her.

[Rebecca Alter]

She's so proud of herself right now. For she's like, I've remembered that it's incremental.

[Griffin]

You give her little victory. So it's not just like at one point in the movie, suddenly she's.

[Rebecca Alter]

And because her. Well, a. She repeats it a hundred times. But also, like, because the remembering the address is something so emotionally important to her that, like, I won't remember the address of a house I grew up in, but I'll remember. P. Sherman, 42 Wallaby, Sydney, until, like, I die, probably.

[Griffin]

And especially her riffing on it and her turning into the songs. Ask me again and I'll tell you. P. Sherman, 42 Wally Way.

[Rebecca Alter]

So they get to this trap, and the trench looks dark and scary. Marlon.

[Griffin]

Sorry, I was pulling up to remind myself where I was. Instead, I just got the scary sounds of the trench.

[Rebecca Alter]

And Marlon is obviously like, well, we don't want to go through the dark, scary trench. We need to go over a fish who. She had asked for directions earlier, told

[Griffin]

her it's the school of fish. It's the final thing after they've been making fun of Marlon, and he's like, fuck these guys. Then they're like, one last thing. But it's after he's swum off. So only she's there to hear it. And they don't know that she can't remember.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, right. That is. Then I thought this happened later in the movie. But I'm getting them confused with the school of fish in the end who we'll get to, who are also a big silver school of fish.

[Griffin]

But the clockwork kind of precision of just like, there aren't any cheats in the story.

[Rebecca Alter]

They are so funny.

[Griffin]

They're so specific. Like, the conflicts they find themselves in, why they're there, why there isn't an easy out, why they need to fight to work through the thing. Like, if Marlin wasn't offended by them mocking because he's so self serious. Then he would have heard the thing about the trench.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right. And he doesn't like asking for directions. She's very friendly. She doesn't mind going up to anyone.

[Griffin]

His stubbornness screws them.

[Rebecca Alter]

They do the like, hey, is this fellow bothering you?

[Griffin]

Yeah, lady.

[Rebecca Alter]

So they play a game of charades to cheer her up. And then because. And so we've seen that they can move in this really fun way. And then they do a big arrow. Cause they tell them they need to get to the. The eac. Oh, right. They know where Sidney is.

[David]

They show the little waves. They show the opera house. They turn into marlin and they do, like a sad face. Marlin. Which is pretty funny.

[Griffin]

They do a mocking impression over his shoulder.

[Rebecca Alter]

They are very funny. They give them the directions.

[Griffin]

Right. Swim through, not over.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. He doesn't trust her. So they get. He distracts her. He's like, look, a shiny thing. And they go them up.

[Griffin]

The jellyfish. Them up.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

This is the sequence.

[David]

But then they're woken up. I mean, we cut to the tank and then when we cut back to them, they're woken up on the turtles.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's so scary, intense and so beautiful.

[Griffin]

It's another camera decision where he said, they animated this whole sequence. And he was like, it looks too neat and clean and perfect. There isn't tension to this. And the guy who was head of camera in the movie was like, let me try something. And he clicked twice to zoom in. Like, literally just did that.

[David]

Sure.

[Griffin]

And did it kind of like arbitrarily. And Stanton was like, oh, if the compositions are asymmetrical, if the jellyfish's bodies are cut off, and it feels like there's just this weird environment that you can't see his full bodies. And so all of the camera placements within the sequence, which is a lot more quick, cutty, are all kind of a little disorienting.

[David]

How did they stop the camera from getting wet?

[Griffin]

Really good question. Question. It's a fun sequence.

[David]

Fun. The. We're getting to the turtles. The turtles, okay. In my opinion, the most positive representation of a Californian in the world.

[Griffin]

This is a really good take.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[David]

Like, of that kind of like the surfer dude thing. Andrew Stanton, a Massachusetts. And although he's probably lived in California for, like, decades at this point.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Doing, like, surfer dude accent.

[Griffin]

Oh, man.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

You know.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right.

[David]

But it's like the whole point of crush is he's just like, I'm 100 years old or 150 or whatever he is. Look at me. I'm fucking chilling.

[Griffin]

There's nothing annoying about this guy. He's not forcing his worldview on. Not at all. The more you talk to him, the more you're like, this guy's got it figured out.

[Rebecca Alter]

He's like, you know, when there's, like, cool teen, like, when there's cool Jesus for teens. Do you know what I mean?

[Griffin]

Crushes cool Jesus.

[David]

You think he's kind of like a youth pastor, but like a really nice youth pastor.

[Rebecca Alter]

He's like the cool Jesus. He's the cool hippie Jesus that the youth pastor is talking about.

[David]

Yeah. A youth pastor wishes he could be

[Rebecca Alter]

crushed, but he is. Show. He's demonstrating an extremely different parenting style. Right. Marlon is being exposed to it is

[David]

actually healthy, much less helicoptery kind of parenting.

[Griffin]

He'll find his way.

[Rebecca Alter]

A way to teach your kid, a way a kid learns to be safe in the world is to fail or fall off the swing.

[Griffin]

To let them be empowered in their choices and feel like it's basically based on experiences rather than rules being placed around them.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. And feel it. To have a sense of adventure that feels safe and just the whole idea

[Griffin]

of, like, you know, locating the EAC as a real phenomenon, then being like, man. Okay, so turtles. Would they be like surfers? If they're literally just in the flow of this?

[Rebecca Alter]

It's sort of like a highway, like when you see the fish that are merging on.

[David]

But it also is skydiving. Yes. Coated, too.

[Rebecca Alter]

When Squirt gives the big skydiver, like, okay, going to have a great jump today.

[David]

Totally.

[Griffin]

I mean, incredible performance from Stanton. It's another one of these early examples where here is a role that they earmark of, like, well, at some point, we'll hire, like, a celebrity to do it. And he would do it in all the story reels.

[David]

Brad Bird doing Edna mode or whatever. Right.

[Griffin]

Well, that's the opposite story where they hired much like William H. Macy. It's never been named, but everyone believes it's Lily Tomlin, that he hired Lily Tomlin and she was doing the records, and he kept on giving her really specific directions of being like, no, I think it's more like this. And it's more like this. And Lily Tomlin literally. Excuse me. I got myself to a tongue twister. Lily Tomlin literally goes, I think you should just do this.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, why don't you do it then? And then.

[Griffin]

And then he just does.

[Rebecca Alter]

Edna was born.

[Griffin]

Right. This was the opposite. Where when they went, Edna Mode. When they were in the early stages, everyone around Stanton was just like, you should just do this.

[Rebecca Alter]

He's like a Hawaiian shirt guy. Well, all the Pixar guys at this point in time are Hawaiian shirt guys.

[Griffin]

It's a little preppier.

[David]

He's got that in New England thing going on.

[Griffin]

Yeah. But this is outside of himself. But he just, like, he found the character. No one's gonna do it better.

[David]

Should I have a Hawaiian shirt?

[Griffin]

No, absolutely not. That would be a nightmare.

[Rebecca Alter]

I think you're wearing a baseball shirt, and it's awesome.

[David]

I'm. I'm in my Mets era.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

I keep buying jerseys.

[Rebecca Alter]

So the other thing, as we've been saying, about how all the character choices make sense for the type of animal, this type of more relaxed parenting style, not only that they're surfers and whatever else, but it's also because they hatch their eggs really far away. And Marlon goes, how do you trust that they'll come and swim all this way in the big, big ocean and find you? And it's like, oh, when they're ready, they. They'll. When you know, you know, you know.

[Griffin]

But it's finding those gifts of, like, you do research on different species, and you go, oh, that's interesting. That's an interesting character detail.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Rather than forcing things onto characters, you find these discoveries. I want to mention that in between right before Marlon waking up.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, we have tank stuff.

[Griffin]

Yes. You have the first attempt at Tank escape.

[David]

Yep.

[Griffin]

Which is genuinely, like, pretty upsetting.

[Rebecca Alter]

That's also an interesting Indiana Jones type.

[David]

I really like that it's a moment for Gilbert to be like, I pushed the kid too hard or like, I was being crazy, like, thinking this would work or whatever.

[Griffin]

It's also that he's only been dealing with other adults and that he's pushing Nemo to the same extent. He's the opposite of Marlin, where rather than not letting him do anything, he's making Nemo do too much.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. So he pressures him. The plan is, because Nemo's small, he's gonna swim into the filtration system and jam one of those little tank pebbles into the rotating motor to jam it, and then the tank will get gunky. They will all have to be put into little bags while the dentist cleans it. We get a really fun visual where he's explaining how the plan is going to work and talk about the camera placement. It's like this POV of these bagged fish rolling across the highway.

[Griffin]

Stan, I think, talks about it as the fincher sequence. He's like, this is my homage to the fight club. Here's how we're going to infiltrate. You know, talking through it and all the crazy camera movements and whatever.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's really fun.

[Griffin]

It is a really smart plan.

[David]

It's a good plan. But it has this assumption to it that I do like that it's like there's a fish logic.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yes.

[David]

Of like, humans will only do one thing right and they don't realize that, like, yeah, a human can just go on Amazon and buy like a new filter.

[Griffin]

But I. I like that Nemo gets close. Like, it's not like it's a total failure. No, but. But it is so scary. Scary that it does actually set Marlon back. Not Marlon. I'm sorry, Gil. It makes him question everything to a degree where he's just like, these are the lies I'm telling myself so I can survive in this tank. We're never getting out of here.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right.

[Griffin]

And it flips the dynamic where Nemo is going to have to console him, basically.

[Rebecca Alter]

Okay.

[David]

Because Nemo finally does it because he hears about his dad's heroism.

[Griffin]

Well, I'm sorry, let's just run through. Because I need to, I need. That's coming up because you have this lesson with the turtles, right? And they send him off the eac, but they start spreading the message, right? This is a sequence that they talk about is just like kind of Pixar at their best, where one night they were like, fuck, we gotta solve this story problem. How can Nemo possibly receive word that his father is looking for him at this point in the movie? Wouldn't he just give up? How do we stop the character from just. Just conceding? And they're just like, well, what if it's a fucking, like game of radio, right? What if it's a chain of conversation? And then what are the opportunities for characterization and all of those things? Because all these have to be like a 4 second gag of what's funny is, oh, are swordfish like upper crust British fencers?

[Rebecca Alter]

So fun?

[Griffin]

And they basically just like write this all in one night. All do the voices. These are all Pixar people, people. It's all like Peterson and Stanton, like, repeating different, you know, archetypes and cultural stereotypes. And it's like a really fun journey that just feels like a fun story exploration. But then you get to Nigel hearing it, Nigel recognizing it, being like, I

[David]

gotta tell this clownfish.

[Griffin]

But you can tell that he's like, this is gonna mean a lot to this kid. I gotta tell him Right away. Flies through with urgency. Nemo immediately is like, what? Actually, no, not possible. He's immediately heartened and then rejects it as like. That is not a thing my father could do.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. That. My dad would never battle a shark. Like, let alone even like Sandy Plankton's dad wouldn't even battle a shark.

[Griffin]

If you told him your dad is just swimming really far to get to you. Even that would test his.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

His. His notion of his father.

[Rebecca Alter]

But this is a beautiful moment because he. Nigel says some identifying features about marlin,

[Griffin]

little sport fish, trout, tuna.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. His name's Marlon.

[Griffin]

Yeah. So you said he fought a shark. I heard he took down three. And you just. You just fucking. Like Spielberg shot pushing on Nemo's face. And his eyes widening.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

As he realizes the expression of his father's love in a way his father could never say to him. The understanding of what his father has gone through to try to get to him, I just find incredibly emotionally overwhelming.

[David]

I think you're right. I think you're right. I think it's very. Emotionally. It's very beautiful.

[Rebecca Alter]

And so Nemo makes up his mind. He's gonna try the plan again. Gill wouldn't have wanted to push him.

[Griffin]

She disappears in a cut. Like Nigel's telling the story. All the other fish in the tank are so excited for Nemo. And then they realize he's missing and he's already gone back up the pipe. It's like hearing of his father's bravery has emboldened him to believe that he can do things as well we should.

[David]

Also, of course, around now is when Nemo. I mean, when Marlin and Dory get sucked into a whale. And Dory speaks whale to the whale.

[Griffin]

But that's right after this. And that changes. That changes humanity forever. It changes the world.

[David]

Everyone just could not stop talking about was seismic. It is so funny having I've seen Finding Dory so many times now because my daughter vastly prefers it to finding New Nemo. And. And that movie, I think, is pretty fun. And we will talk about it on this show. Yeah, but the way that they're just like. Well, Dory has to speak whale. That should be crucial, actually. The fact that Dory doesn't know where her family was. That's the emotional arc of the movie. That throwaway line like in the first movie.

[Rebecca Alter]

Where did Dory learn just to read?

[David]

Correct. Like, they're basically like, what are the things about Dory now? That is the spine of Finding.

[Griffin]

I like that movie a lot. Everything that drives Me crazy in it is the checklist dc.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. I hate that in prequel type thing.

[Griffin]

Yes. Like, I. I hate that they bring the turtles back, even though I love Crush and it just feels like they're like, guys, you. You have to bring the turtles back. We need to sell, like, turtle merch, you know?

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

There's stuff like that. That's really annoying.

[Rebecca Alter]

Turtle talk we'll get into as well.

[Griffin]

We'll get into turtle talk.

[Rebecca Alter]

But whale.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

The whale speaking.

[Rebecca Alter]

Whale is just. That is one of the most biblical, ancient, important archetypes in. In myths and sagas and legends is our whale heroes get swallowed by a whale. You just have to do it. Pinocchio. One of the greatest animated films of all time.

[David]

True.

[Rebecca Alter]

Swallowed by whale.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

I think it's some of the best decor

[Griffin]

inside of a whale.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Baleen.

[Rebecca Alter]

That's their little teeth things.

[David]

Yeah. They're like filters.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. Which is so funny because you think of them as being sort of soft and small, but they're so packed in and hard when Marlon's trying to escape.

[Griffin]

But anyway, the taste buds being so pronounced that the fish can hang on to them.

[Rebecca Alter]

That part I do not like. Marlin rubbing up on the taste bud.

[Griffin]

And also the water coming, like, as flowing against the.

[Rebecca Alter]

Where the whale is swimming. It's so interesting.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Whales are crazy, them having this fight where marlin's, like, really reaching a breaking point with Dory of being like. You keep thinking you can do. You know, you can speak to whales, you can read, you can do all this. And meanwhile, it's just the whale approaching them so slowly.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right. And because of the weird perspective and lighting and all the tricks in the water, she's going like, hey, little fella.

[Griffin]

I don't think that's a little fella.

[Rebecca Alter]

That's Payakan.

[Griffin]

Yeah, that's Payakan.

[Rebecca Alter]

He is such a Payakan because he is helping them.

[Griffin]

It's interesting that way of water inverts what you're talking about, where the villains go inside the whale and do something

[David]

terrible, take their immortality juices.

[Rebecca Alter]

Well, that's a lesson. Whales are something grander and more sacred than us, and we. We can't be trying to mess with it.

[David]

True.

[Griffin]

I do like that the whale basically becomes a location. Right. That it's like where they have a

[David]

friend and they talk it up. But I like Becca's thing of, like.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

Also, this kind of. They're passing through a siege perilous here. The biblical thing that they are transformed by being expelled from the Whale, Right.

[Griffin]

And it's much like Nemo's character growth happening in him. Listening to Nigel's story, like, just really elegant show. Don't tell stuff through action. It's just such a fucking perfect piece of screenwriting. When Marlin is yelling at Dory, right. For trying to come up with a solution for how to save themselves.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And he's just saying no to everything she's fucking doing. And then he finally breaks and says my favorite line. You think you can do these things, but you just can't, Nemo. And. And what I love about it is you see the shock on her face, the reaction of why he called me Nemo. She can't quite comprehend it. But then it cuts back to him, and he looks so fucking embarrassed. Like he realizes what he just.

[David]

Dory.

[Griffin]

Yes. That. Well, that's.

[Rebecca Alter]

She's like, who's Nemo? I thought your kid is Harpo. Chico.

[Griffin]

Fabio. Fabio, yes. But that he, like, he gets it the second it comes out of his mouth. What?

[David]

Harpo just laughing about Dory.

[Griffin]

It's another classic comedy thing. Anytime she confidently says the wrong name and he just has to go, nemo. He just has to correct her so fast.

[Rebecca Alter]

So Nemo is a very fun word to say. It's awesome that it said like a trillion times in this movie. It's a really good, cute, fun name.

[Griffin]

There's a part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house. But I also know what isn't funny.

[David]

Ocd.

[Griffin]

I've lived with OCD my entire life, and people throw the term around like it's no big deal. But OCD is severe, often debilitating.

[Rebecca Alter]

Debilitating?

[Griffin]

It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented, unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but for ocd, it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about NOCD. NOCD is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their license therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to nocd.com to book a free 15 minute call.

[David]

They are here to help. Of course, Nemo himself escapes all by himself. Like, you know, Marlon does not rescue Nemo, right? He's there for Nemo when he comes out of the, you know, into the harbor Right out of the sink.

[Griffin]

But also, Dory is correct. Like, Dory gets them out of the fucking.

[Rebecca Alter]

Dory's been talking to the whale this whole time. Whales don't speak. And I think whales don't speak the same language as all the other fish because they're, again, like the Tulkun, sort of like on this elevated plane of intelligence. The same way that we can't speak the same language of whales. But whales do have language.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Rebecca Alter]

So that's sort of what's happening here in my mind. She's communicating with the whale. The whale is like, you need to do the counterintuitive thing, which is fall down into my throat so that I could then blow you out. I've driven you to Sydney. I'm dropping you off.

[Griffin]

Which is also what teaches Marlin to trust Nemo in Nemo's escape, that she's doing the counterintuitive thing. Why would you go deeper into the whale? And Nemo, similarly, is not trying to swim up out of the net.

[David]

No, he's got to swim down. That's how we're going to escape this thing.

[Rebecca Alter]

She learns about swimming down also because. Yeah, when. When the fish have to get scooped out, usually to be sent to their doom at the hands of Darla. It's in a little net, and if a lot of them are in the net, they can break it.

[David]

And Nemo, you know, the big transformation is he knows what to do. He persuades Marlon to let him do it. Marlon lets him do it. Marlon has the wherewithal to let him do it. And they escape.

[Griffin]

It's the story thing. I like, love across the Toy Story movies. That also feels very influenced by Indiana Jones, where you set out, like, here's the clear plan. This is what needs to happen, and the order of actions that will get us to the other side of this thing. And then immediately, shit goes wrong and your characters have to improvise. But it's like a heist movie where you're so trained into how this is supposed to go that it's exciting every time they have to veer off of the planet, man. And the movie is telegraphing the all drains lean to the ocean thing so loudly throughout as, like, if they can just get there, then they're in the clear, they're safe.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

It is a thing that Pixar people have talked about that there were a lot of incidents after this movie came out of kids flushing, right fish down the toys.

[David]

Like they're not gonna. Because they thought they're not making it to the harbor. B.

[Griffin]

They thought that was the humanitarian act.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, no.

[Griffin]

Fish sales went way up after this movie, of course. And, like, aquarium attendance, I feel like permanently went up after this movie.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, yeah.

[Griffin]

But there was a lot of kids trying to free fish by. By flushing them down.

[Rebecca Alter]

I do think there's a very beautiful of its time, sort of Y2K frutiger arrow, vivid blue and orange. Like, aesthetic to the whole thing. That feels like it was.

[David]

Those are the two colors. Let's get Gomez.

[Griffin]

I also like calling this frutiger.

[Rebecca Alter]

Is that how you say it? Frutiger? Aero. Sure. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[David]

Yes, I know what you're talking about.

[Rebecca Alter]

Like that one windows background.

[Griffin]

Yeah. Also a little fruitopia.

[David]

I miss it.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, Fruitopia I miss. That is like Crush and squirt vibe.

[David]

Yes, that's true. I miss my, like, Windows 98. Bring it back, bring it back, bring it back.

[Rebecca Alter]

Also, a good reason for them to be clownfish is the blue orange. Contrast is the best. Contrast. Contrast.

[Griffin]

So did you know if you ate

[David]

a clownfish that it would be gross because they're covered in a special mucus to protect them from the anemones that they live in. All right, kid. Don't knock yourself out. No. And then. Then we're done. Like, I mean, right?

[Griffin]

Like it's like we skipped over.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right. You think you're in the clear when

[Griffin]

he escapes, but the tank gets super dirty.

[David]

Yeah, sure.

[Griffin]

Austin Pendleton's freaking the out. Can't you see that we're all surrounded by which they cut him off.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. She goes, shh. Because the dentist is coming in. And he takes his Reader's Digest into the bathroom. Oh, yeah. Is that when that happens or.

[Griffin]

Yes. Yes. And the kid in the waiting room is reading the Incredibles comic. I don't know if you noticed that.

[Rebecca Alter]

And there's a little Buzz Lightyear in the toy chest.

[Griffin]

Yeah. But the thing they didn't account for is that he would just buy some new high tech cleaner and install it while they were sleeping.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

That he doesn't need to take that out. Or he took them out, but put them back in really quickly. So they wake up, the tank is clean. All hope is lost. Right. Does not know that Dory and Marlon have gotten so close.

[Rebecca Alter]

And today is the day that Darla is coming, and she's gonna take Nemo and shake him until he dies.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

You know, she even gets her hands on him. I mean, she's got him for a second.

[Rebecca Alter]

She gives him a hearty shake. Yeah, she's like, the opposite. I think a lot of, like, the depiction of Australia in this was just this. And, you know, Kangaroo Jack were, like, my only exposure to Australia in, you know, the first decade of life. And it so goes against the lovely, intelligent children of Bluey. Darla makes it seem like the children of Australia are monsters.

[David]

I do think it's vital in Bluey that Bluey is a relatively obnoxious child.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, but she's not. Like, Darla is like, oh, no, Darla's much worse.

[David]

But I mean, like, I mean, I just wait.

[Rebecca Alter]

At one point, someone, a character with an Australian attitude accent, calls Dory Bluey at one point.

[David]

Well, she is blue.

[Griffin]

She is blue.

[David]

But, you know, in Bluey, like, one of my favorite episodes of Bluey, a hugely controversial episode, is the one where Ellen comes out. The puppy episode. They're all puppy episodes of Blue is the one where Bingo, you know, first they both turn into Blueys, right? Bingo turns into Bluey. Like, Bingo paints herself blue.

[Rebecca Alter]

I don't know about this.

[David]

It's so good. It's called mini Bluey.

[Griffin]

He's a controversial.

[David]

I'll tell you in one second. So Bingo turns herself into Bluey, and Bluey's like, this is what it's like if you're Bluey. And essentially, it's like, you need to be more obnoxious. Like, you are not, like, you are the good sister. I'm the more annoying sister, blah, blah, blah. Don't listen to dad when he tells you to do something, right? Ignore people. Be a little bossy. Make weird noises, yada, yada. And they do that for a while. And then Bluey's like, this is boring. How about I be Bingo? And so they both turn into Bingo, right? They Bluey pain. And then, you know, they're being nice and helpful, and the dad goes, this rocks. Result. This is great.

[Griffin]

You're making my life easier.

[David]

Like, Bluey gets upset, and they, you know, they have to resolve, like, the, you know, the, you know, Bingo's like, I'm also annoying. Like, Bingo helps me.

[Rebecca Alter]

Bingo is a much sweeter kid.

[David]

But, like, Bingo's an asset. Like, of course. Like, they think that. But, like, I'm also annoying and weird and demonstrates how. But then the episode does end with the dad being like, but it did kind of rock when she was being Bingo, right? And a lot of fans don't like it because it's like, it's not an example of amazing parenting. Like, the dad never really apologizes.

[Rebecca Alter]

Can't be the. These perfect parents all the time.

[David]

That's why I love it.

[Rebecca Alter]

The issue with the Bluey parents is they're too perfect. So we need these moments anyway.

[Griffin]

Where.

[Rebecca Alter]

Where are we in this?

[Griffin]

Here's the thing. I like in the movie and I like this. Just when movies can give me this feeling where you feel like it's wrapping up and you're like, it's a shame. I've been having fun. I guess if it's time to end, it's time to end. But I could watch some more of this. And there's basically a fake out denouement. Right. Like Darla's here ticking clock, it's coming to a head. Marlon and Dorry have made it like

[Rebecca Alter]

basically right in Nigel's mouth. Which was another moment of learning to trust. Because he's like, you need to hop

[Griffin]

in my mouth for me to simplified. This is the only thing the other pelican needs to accomplish is just being a basically non speaking rival for like a.

[Rebecca Alter]

They're all like lads who are perched above a fish and chips stand.

[Griffin]

We also need to call out the mind sequels who we haven't even talked about yet.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right. Which were also. You say Bruce is a breakout. So the seagulls were huge.

[Griffin]

Humongous.

[David]

Yeah. Seagull. Mine, mine, mine. It's very funny.

[Griffin]

It's just another really good identification of like what do seagulls feel like to us when we see them?

[Rebecca Alter]

Right, yeah. So. And also Nemo's playing dead.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Rebecca Alter]

That's a.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Rebecca Alter]

So that he'll get flushed down the toilet. And that's what Marlin and Dory come in on.

[Griffin]

So they think the dentist is scooping him to give to Darlie. Gil's final advice is to play dead.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yep.

[Griffin]

He wants to get to the drain. But yes, there's like this tension of Nigel getting Marlin Dory to the window. They make it there just in time to see what they think is Nemo dead on the counter. So they give up. Nemo wakes up Gill recognizes the panic of this moment and does what is potentially the sacrifice of load me into the volcano. Know another thing we've set up in the movie that doesn't feel like it's going to be a sort of mechanic for action.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right. It was just sort of a fun gag that they could make the volcano speak.

[Griffin]

Right. That's just part of the ritual. But then we've shown that like it's not actually dangerous. But of course, yes, you could launch yourself from that.

[Rebecca Alter]

So they all work together and they launch Gil over to the dentist tool tray.

[Griffin]

Right. Who uses basically, the tools to break Nemo's bag to be able to let Nemo flip into the drain of the dentist. Bitsync. But it's too late in the sense that Marlon and Dory think it's too late.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right.

[David]

They think he's.

[Rebecca Alter]

So Nemo is flushed to sea, and Marlin and Dory are back in the ocean. And Nigel also thinks Nemo's gone. And it's like, I'm sorry.

[Griffin]

I'm sorry. I truly am his second. I'm sorry. Truly am. Really gets to me, the gravity of it. Yeah. And then he just fucking flies away. And Marlon has his lowest moment of just, like. I mean, genuine grief.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. He's crossed the ocean. He came so close. His son is dead, and he's like, dory, we're going our separate ways.

[Griffin]

He's not even angry at Dory at this point. But it's just like, I. It's over. It's fucking over.

[Rebecca Alter]

She gets the beautiful thing about, like, I don't want to keep forgetting when I'm with you, with this relationship, I'm able to remember. And he's like, I don't want to

[Griffin]

remember when I'm with you, I'm home.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Yeah. She makes her big plea, and it falls on deaf ears because he's just going through too fucking much, which leaves her alone. This is where you're like, I felt like the movie was about to end, but now they're all split up again. Where's the movie even going? What moves? Does it still even have? And it's.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh.

[Griffin]

Nemo can bump into Dory, and Dory cannot understand what that means.

[Rebecca Alter]

Y. Yeah, that's so. At first, Nemo, very sweetly, is like, oh, like, are you lost?

[Griffin]

Yeah, right, right.

[Rebecca Alter]

Very cute. He sees he's just escaped from, like, the most perilous situation ever. He's seen more than any little baby

[Griffin]

fish should, but he wants to take care of her.

[Rebecca Alter]

He wants to. He's immediately like, okay, like, I'll help you. He sees she's in distress, Right.

[Griffin]

And once again, like, if Marlin had listened to Dory's plea, he would have been reunited with his son in five minutes.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Rebecca Alter]

So Marlon goes away. There's these crabs who are fun.

[Griffin]

Dory does. You have the moment of, like, Nemo. That's a nice name.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. Oh, really funny.

[Griffin]

Yeah. Perfectly played.

[Rebecca Alter]

And then what is it that helps her remember again?

[David]

It's like a flashback.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

But what triggers. What triggers the P. Sherman 42 Wallaby Way, Sydney. Because she has the moment where it all comes flooding back. Her, like, Keyser Soze moment. I'm trying to remember what the verbal trigger is.

[David]

I don't remember.

[Rebecca Alter]

Okay, well, so the fact that we're

[Griffin]

getting is very metal.

[Rebecca Alter]

No, it's metatextual. That we don't remember. And it will come to us in a flashback, and it'll be, like a parallel and whatever. So that happens. She remembers. And they need to find Marlon.

[Griffin]

Yeah. Right. And Marlon's just sort of following the school of fish.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right.

[Griffin]

I mean, you could argue he's borderline suicidal at this moment.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. So there's this big school of fish, and they're all like, hey, watch where you're going. They're, like, really dour. He's sort of caught up in that. They briefly reunite.

[Griffin]

It's the pipe. I'm sorry? It's the pipe where the crabs are looking to catch the fish. And it says Sidney on it.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh.

[Griffin]

Sees that? She reads it. And P. Sherman, 42 Wally by Sydney comes back to her.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. And then she's like, oh, Nemo. And she's hugging him with her little fins. There's this big school of fish, and

[Griffin]

I'm sorry, but just incredible. Ellen DeGeneres, line delivery. She does her similar, like, seven thoughts in one sentence. We thought you were dead, and you're not. And your father. Your father. She has her one kind of scolding.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. While she's, like, squishing his face. It's really cute.

[David]

She's really cute.

[Rebecca Alter]

But we see this school of fish where they've just reunited. Up above on the shore, there's a fishing trawler that's going.

[David]

Yeah, this is. Right. The net.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right. It's going to drop a big net and scoop up all of these fish.

[Griffin]

Yeah. And Nemo's the only one who can basically save everybody.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right. Oh, no. Cause Dory gets caught up in it. And Marlin is now. Even though he just. He. He realizes his mistake from abandoning Dory, he's not gonna lose her again. So it's like, we need to get her out of there and free all the fish. Nemo goes inside, and Marlin has just got his son back. And he's like, you cannot do this. But then it's like, this is going to work.

[Griffin]

You need to trust me to.

[Rebecca Alter]

I know that you can.

[Griffin]

Yeah. And it's. You've already had their moment of reunion. So it's. What's impactful is that Marlon has just gotten him back, and he so quickly Accepts that he needs to trust him and let him go for another moment.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yep. So he schools all the fish.

[David]

So true.

[Griffin]

This. Yes.

[Rebecca Alter]

Swim down.

[Griffin]

This is based on a real event.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

That Stanton read about in the news.

[David]

There was some event where school of fish seem to somehow figure out how to beat a net.

[Griffin]

To break the net.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

Which is another great. Like, oh, shit. If you're telling me that happened for real.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[David]

Or at least someone claims it.

[Griffin]

Yeah, yeah.

[David]

Movie's over, right? I mean, like, then we end up back at the school and all that.

[Griffin]

Excuse me. My opening quote, another moment that makes me cry where he's looking at Nemo who has succeeded in freeing all the fish, but he's lying kind of knocked out at the bottom of the ocean floor. At least this tier of the ocean floor, right?

[David]

Oh, yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

This, this.

[Griffin]

And you have the mirroring of him going to Nemo and cradling him like the egg. And then to console him as he's like half awake, you know.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

He tells him the Sandy Plankton thing, right?

[David]

Yeah. It's a lovely moment. To me, the lovely moment is when he gets information.

[Griffin]

When he gets the what?

[David]

When he. When he's like, how old are you? And crush goes 150. Dude. Like, that just makes me cry.

[Rebecca Alter]

But see, I.

[David]

It's so beautiful. The payoff's good too.

[Rebecca Alter]

But both are.

[Griffin]

Both are incredible.

[Rebecca Alter]

Both are so sweet.

[Griffin]

But the fact that he's able to tell him that and that he knows that and that he understands the value of having experiences and learning things for yourself. And that's what he like yells at Nemo about, which is so funny. His genuine frustration of why do you still give a About Sandy Plankton.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Is both very funny and very Albert

[Rebecca Alter]

Brooks saying the name Sandy Plankton. Him two very important spongebob characters.

[Griffin]

Yes. Good call.

[Rebecca Alter]

He just delivers it in a really funny way.

[Griffin]

And then. And then you cut forward basically to their new found family back at the anatomy.

[David]

And now it's there.

[Rebecca Alter]

Marlin jumping on Nemo because he's excited for him to go to school.

[David]

There's also mid credits scene where the tank. That the Tank gang does escape. Which is fine.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, and Squirt's an exchange student now.

[David]

Oh, that's right. Hey, man.

[Rebecca Alter]

Best.

[David]

I just want to say this right now, but okay.

[Griffin]

It was part of the reason why I was so concerned when they announced they were even making a sequel. Y is this movie does end just perfectly.

[David]

It does. But it's not like the Monsters Inc. Ending where you're Like, I truly don't know what you do.

[Griffin]

No.

[David]

Finding Nemo does end with, like, they live in the ocean and are friends. They could have another adventure. Adventure.

[Griffin]

It's Nemo swimming back to hug him and say, I love you, and then swimming off and Marlin saying, I love you too, son. At a distance. You know that? He says it to himself kind of.

[David]

Yeah, it's good.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

He says, go have an adventure. And Nemo says, okay, but the last

[Griffin]

line is, yeah, I love you too.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right before Nemo got stuff. Right before Nemo got taken away, he said, I hate you.

[Griffin]

Exactly.

[Rebecca Alter]

With hit. Like, full force.

[David]

I. Guys, I hear you. I love this movie. I will say it does not quite activate my parent buttons in the way you guys seem to be disinterested. But, like, not in, like, a way where I'm immune to it.

[Rebecca Alter]

But does it activate your child of a parent button? Is it more like the opposite identification?

[David]

I just like it because it's about fish and Dory's so funny.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's pretty awesome.

[David]

But I think all of the stuff you're saying is very well done. Like, I'm not. You know, but it doesn't. It does. This movie doesn't. Like, I'm, like.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's about.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

How secure attachment styles are formed.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Rebecca Alter]

In the crucial early years of life.

[Griffin]

Yes. I also need to correct myself. He does the swim back. Love you. But then he just says, bye, dad. While on Mr. Ray yelled at at a distance. And then Marlon says, bye, son, very quietly to himself. Right. The end. Beautiful. Fucking Robbie Williams. Beyond the sea.

[David]

Oh, yeah. Fuck. Obviously, famously, if you see this movie, what's the. What's the language where the end is? Sloot.

[Rebecca Alter]

What?

[Griffin]

What?

[Rebecca Alter]

So there's a language, right, that it comes up on the screen. It just says slut.

[David]

And that became an old, like, Twitter, YouTube of, like, the end of YouTube. But then it just goes slut.

[Rebecca Alter]

Well, then wouldn't that happen in, like, a hundred movies?

[David]

Yes, but it's just especially funny. And Nemo. Also, most movies don't say the end at the end anymore. It's Swedish. It's Swedish.

[Rebecca Alter]

That. That is awesome.

[David]

I will find it now.

[Griffin]

Do you know, speaking of languages, this is only the second movie ever that was dubbed into Navajo.

[David]

That's amazing.

[Rebecca Alter]

Whoa.

[David]

Here we go. See, here's the ending.

[Griffin]

Water looking at the shot, you know, and that just. It does just say slug. In fact, it does just say slug.

[David]

Best support actress of 2003. Here were the Oscar nominees. I want to say this right now. The nominees were Renee Zwogger for Cold Mountain one Unbelievable. Yeah. Shore Agadash Lou for House of sand and Fog. Lovely nomination. Mediocre movie. Patricia Clarkson for Pieces of April. Better in the Station Agent but still pretty good.

[Griffin]

Yeah, that's a weird one where that movie. It was a combo doesn't exist, but there was a moment of, hey, Patricia Clarkson.

[David]

Good.

[Griffin]

She has two great performances this year. Let's give her a lifetime.

[David]

Kind of you pick in the Pieces of April. She has cancer or whatever. It's a little more.

[Griffin]

But a totally forgotten movie that she's forgotten.

[David]

Yes, she's good. Marden and Mystic River. Kind of an odd nom. Not bad in it.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Holly Hunter in 13. A very good performance because she's a good actor in a very sort of over rob movie.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Ellen DeGeneres is better than all of those performances. Like, by far. Like, it's not even a question.

[Griffin]

Did BAFTA nominate her? I know they nominated. Nominated Murphy.

[David]

I think they flirted with it, but like, she might have made a long list or something. She got a couple of, like she won the Saturn, but the Saturns are, you know, a little. She got a couple of critics award, you know, like Chicago nominated award.

[Griffin]

A lot of critics saying, like, this is the time to finally do this.

[David]

And this is what I want to say.

[Rebecca Alter]

This still has not happened.

[Griffin]

It still has not happened.

[David]

A vocal performance. No, it's not.

[Rebecca Alter]

There are very few that are at. At the level that deserve it.

[David]

It is the kind of transformative performance that I think the Oscars. Especially when you hear those five. Five names.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

No offense to them.

[Rebecca Alter]

No.

[Griffin]

But that's like a good actors all

[Rebecca Alter]

the time, right?

[Griffin]

Yeah, yeah. That was also a big thing.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, but that's also like motion.

[David]

Like we did get a. The Oscar for animated film. Obviously it was nominated for screenplay, sound and music, I think.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, the music. The score is a great Scott.

[David]

It's Newman's best score.

[Griffin]

I was going to ask you because I know sometimes you can be a little snarky about Newman.

[David]

He has a thing that he does.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

And I enjoy the thing that he does. But I do feel that he, you know, you kind of know what you're getting with a Newman score.

[Griffin]

I think this is his best score. I agree with you. It is a secret power of this movie. Just that it. Even though he and Randy Newman are part of the same lineage, that all the Pixar movies musically sounded so similar and this one starts so differently. And when you hear the opening strains of the Thomas Newman Score over the. The anemone house hunting scene at the beginning. You're immediately like, oh, Thomas Newman's whole thing he does all the time. Sounds like the ocean.

[David]

It does.

[Griffin]

There is no better fit for his style.

[David]

It's 100% than this. Obviously Lord of the Rings won that year and that is very, very, very good music.

[Griffin]

But Howard Shore already won. He won for fellowship.

[David]

But you have to give it to him for return. It has the beacon lighting. It has the most bravura shit he ever did.

[Griffin]

Did they didn't give it to him for two towers? No, they didn't give one and 02.

[David]

Let's find out.

[Griffin]

Because also the hours.

[David]

Let's travel through time.

[Griffin]

I keep being corrected that the hours didn't win.

[David]

No, no, no, no, no, no. Write that because that's the Frida year golden from glass.

[Griffin]

Interesting. I think this is incredible year because

[David]

catch me if you can is also nominated the wonderful Elmer Bernstein score for Far from Heaven and Thomas Newman's very nice Road to British score.

[Griffin]

I. I love that score.

[David]

Very nice.

[Griffin]

But this feels like a real they themselves by not giving it to Thomas Newman the year where it made the most sense. And now they're just constantly living in the shadow of how many nominations they've given him. Yes. And the idea that he's maybe never going to have a moment as clear cut as this one.

[David]

Again, I wonder.

[Griffin]

Score's incredible. Script's incredible. I. I feel. And I feel like this is the point you're making.

[David]

What was that?

[Griffin]

Even with the anti animation stigmas, this is a year where Wall E becomes a breaking point in 2008. We'll talk about in that episode that as much as Dark Knight, I would argue leads to the expansion of 10.

[David]

It was part and parcel.

[Griffin]

But this is a year where people were really like, do we have to nominate Finding Nemo? And it felt like the conversation couldn't get traction. Even though everyone sort of sensed like. Like this feels as important as Beauty and the Beast and sort of signaling a change in the industry on top of it being such a seismic success in a year without Lord of the Rings where you didn't have a more obvious blockbuster film. Maybe this would have gotten in. But even with the anti voice actor prejudice, I feel like fucking Ellen DeGeneres was like seven or eight on the list.

[David]

Might have been.

[Griffin]

And part of that's just how weird and kind of weak that supporting actress field was. Was. But you're right, it does feel egregious that she couldn't beat any of those five, I agree.

[David]

I was transitioning. But then I wanted to interject quickly. I never saw this movie before.

[Rebecca Alter]

What?

[Griffin]

That's insane.

[Rebecca Alter]

I knew when I was talking.

[David]

It's true.

[Griffin]

It is the wettest film. When I was talking about how adults would go see this film, you were giving me a look like you were holding something back.

[David]

Yeah. It's so sweet.

[Griffin]

I loved it.

[David]

I guess it makes sense that you weren't in the market for Finding Nemo at the time.

[Griffin]

You were. You were just enough older than us. And you've also talked about your sort of like, teenage. Like the mainstream.

[David]

I only saw it because I was like a nerdy film fan. Like. Like. Right. I had no reason to see it otherwise. 2003, that summer is when I graduated from high school. Pretty cool. Now, I will say I'm somewhat similar to Dory, because at that point I had already really, really dove headfirst into a lifestyle that has led to memory loss.

[Griffin]

Ben has written this out. He's reading from a prepared statement. I'm not making fun of you for that. I just think you're. I want people to know the level of intentionality with which you're speaking right now.

[David]

But I think it's. It's long. Long term memory.

[Griffin]

Oh, sure.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

The short term stuff. You remember the bits.

[David]

But we should, I think, think introduce the podcast.

[Griffin]

Oh, sure. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin Swish.

[David]

I want to point out, as I'm sure Griffin, you already know, that every Pixar movie before this one had come out in November. That was the Pixar spot.

[Griffin]

Yep.

[David]

And originally this was planned for November 2, but possibly because of sort of the aesthetic of the movie. Right. Summer vibe of it, they're like, no, me 30th.

[Griffin]

There are also a couple other things that factor into that. Right. One is, I think they didn't want to. This not getting stuck in a rut thing we talked about. The other thing that's happening around this time is Lasseter goes out and poaches Brad Bird, who now is sort of orphaned after Warner Brothers animation has collapsed. And part of that was, we're worried about repeating ourselves. We need to get someone else in to shake this up and change the past pattern. And they talk about a little bit like Lilo and Stitch being seen as the. The secondary film, redheaded Stepchild. Or while Treasure Planet was the main focus, that everyone was so fucking amped up about Incredibles. And it was like, we got Brad Bird. He's a genius. The Script is perfect. We're making an action film. It's a little bit older, that Nemo's sort of slipping through the cracks a little bit is seen as less exciting and less sexy. But there's also this thing that Disney is sort of pushing on par Pixar, which is if the movie comes out in May, we can sell merchandise in May, have the home video release come out around Thanksgiving, make it the number one Christmas gift, and do a second wave of merchandise in December, which basically Eisner pushes on them as, like, it's big to be a holiday film. But now that we know that Pixar's basically a proven brand and the movie's gonna hit no matter what, what, we'll make more money on these characters. If you release earlier and most of the Pixar movies swing to summer after this, famously, what were you going to say?

[David]

No, what were you going to say? Famously, What?

[Griffin]

There's the original Pixar deal after Toy Story, where they sign them up for five films. There'll be an autonomous company, but Disney has distribution rights and will own the characters in perpetuity. And those five films are supposed to be Monsters, Inc. Nemo, Incredibles, Cars and A Bug's Life. I forgot the first one. Chronologically, where they get fucked on this deal is they said sequels don't count. We want you to make Toy Story 2 right away. But sequels don't count. That's going direct to video. When they up it to theaters, Lasseter goes, so that's one of our five films. And Eisner goes, no, we get that for free because it was meant for video.

[David]

What a jerk.

[Griffin]

That leads to the tensions between Pixar and Disney that made people think straight up, when they're done with the fifth film, which is going to be Cars, they're going to leave. Every film was more successful than the previous film. They kept outgrossing themselves. And everyone around Eisner at Disney was like, you got to do what you. Anything you can do to make good with Pixar now, because we can't lose them. Right? And what Eisner kept saying was, they're going to fail. At some point, one of these movies is going to flop, and then we're going to own their assets because they're not going to have negotiating leverage. And he was really confident that Nemo was the one.

[David]

Well, he was wrong.

[Griffin]

He kept saying to people, this one's not as commercial. Fish aren't going to sell as much merchandise, even if it's just down a little. Bit they're weaker and they'll come begging us.

[David]

Their biggest hit.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And that basically like puts the death knell on Eisner. It's a big part of why he's pushed out of the company that he fucks that up with his arrogance. And that's a little bit I think why they wanted to go to some summer to see like if I I whatever. But the other part of the story is that it was seen as the secondary film. No one was confident about it. There are these big fucking like Cinemacon and licensing, you know, conventions where they have to go and sell these movies years in advance in order to get people on board with them for merchandise and for, you know, the theater partners and whatever. And there was one of these where they didn't have enough footage to show or it wasn't in a good enough state. And the movie had a bit of a stink around it because Eisner kept shit talking it and they need to go combat it. And they sent Andrew Stanton out and he basically performed the movie for 40 minutes similar to the pitch that he did for Lassiter. And everyone walks out of that being like, that's the fucking biggest hit that that shit. The way he told the story and did all the voices and the emotions and everything.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's like Nigel telling the story to Nemo, truly.

[Griffin]

And you can see it on, it's on the DVD and the Blu ray and the fucking itunes extras. There's like a super cut of the moments of him doing that. But he basically just kind of willed this movie into not being totally disregarded because Disney kept trying to like slide it over. And anyone who was engaging with it was like, it feels like this thing has the juice.

[David]

It opens to $70 million. Two biggest hit their career in their time so far. Monsters Inc. To 62 ends at 339 domestic 871 worldwide. It's made more now with re releases and stuff.

[Griffin]

The 3D re release which Stan oversaw is what convinced him to finally do Finding Dory. But it also added basically another $100 million to the gross.

[David]

Convinced finding. We'll talk about it's number one at the box office on May 30th. Number two is the film that was number one the week before. For no Matrix has been out for I think three plus weeks.

[Griffin]

Okay, let me go through May in my head. So the, the opening movie of the summer is X2X Men United.

[David]

That is number seven.

[Griffin]

Then Matrix comes out the following weekend.

[David]

Matrix Reloaded is number four. And no, I Think there's two weeks between them.

[Griffin]

Okay. And then the next May, blockbuster, huge comedy. Oh, oh, it's Bruce Almighty.

[David]

Got a yo, yo. That's the earth.

[Griffin]

Like also open to 70 million.

[David]

Huge, huge hit.

[Griffin]

This month was through.

[David]

America was at just doing great.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Movies were doing great. America was actually doing horribly.

[Griffin]

You basically had four consecutive $70 million opening weekends.

[David]

I remember it so well. It was my IMDb Pro era. My mom got a subscription for work.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And so I had it. And I had such good box office imagery and stuff.

[Griffin]

And like. Yeah.

[David]

I just remember, like, Bruce, terrible movie.

[Griffin]

Yeah, Awful.

[David]

It's a bad movie.

[Griffin]

But it was the biggest comedy opening weekend of all time. Matrix had a five day, so it's three day was a little smaller, but it opened over 100 if you count the five day. Nemo's the biggest animation opening in history. X Men was the biggest superhero opening. Yeah.

[David]

You got pirates coming down the pike later summer.

[Rebecca Alter]

Hell yeah.

[Griffin]

Oh, those crazy Bad Boys 2.

[David]

Bad Boys 2. Terminator 3.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

But yeah, number three at the box office opening against Nemo. Slightly underwhelming in its opening, but I think it kind of legged out a pretty good gross.

[Griffin]

Italian Job.

[David]

It's Mark Wahlberg and Charlize Theron in

[Griffin]

the Italian was a sleeper. It made it to 100 in my memory.

[David]

It's pretty fun.

[Griffin]

It's fun.

[David]

I've not seen it in 20 years.

[Griffin]

It looked like dog, and everyone was like, why would they remake this? And then it kind of was a

[David]

word seen as kind of like a national crime.

[Griffin]

This is offensive. Yeah.

[David]

It was like you're making one of our things.

[Griffin]

You already did get. Carter, why are you kicking us even further?

[David]

I find the British obsession with the Italian Job a little insane. Like, that movie is basically boring until the end, which does rock.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

The stuff with the Minis is great. That's mostly not the movie interesting, but it's pretty fun. Do you like the Italian Job with Mark Wahlberg and Andrew Norton and Charlize Theron and Mos Def and whoever else?

[Rebecca Alter]

Can't say I've ever seen it. I remember it being huge. And back when Canada's Wonderland was Paramount. Canada's Wonderland, there was an Italian Job coaster where you were riding in the Mini Cooper.

[Griffin]

David. Canada's Wonderland, a theme park that used to be Paramount branded and is not anymore, has like 10 rides that are all clearly connected to Paramount movies, but they lost the license and now they're just generic.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. So Top Gun is now like Flight deck.

[Griffin]

Right. And the Italian Job one is called, like, stunt track or something.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And Tomb Raider is called, like, Temple Explorer.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

There was a Wayne's World coaster at one point called the Hurlanata.

[Rebecca Alter]

Okay. That I don't know about.

[Griffin]

That's awesome. Yeah. I'm trying to think what the other ones are, but that park is very funny for that reason.

[David]

Yeah. The Italian Job, like, the.

[Rebecca Alter]

The backlot stunt coaster, big icon of the park, instead of like, the Disney Castle, is like the Paramount Mountain.

[Griffin]

And now they're just like, it's a mountain. But yes, the Italian Job roller coaster still has Mini Coopers. And they're like, it's just one of those chase sequences from any Hollywood movie.

[David]

Yeah, I see it right here. Well, you're not going to change him.

[Griffin]

No.

[David]

Number five at the box office is a film you've seen many times. Many, many, many times.

[Griffin]

It's specifically one of my movies.

[David]

You don't like it, but you've seen it. Maybe you like it. You don't love it.

[Griffin]

I don't love it, but I've.

[David]

Your. Your sister loved this.

[Griffin]

I. I do think this movie is very good. This is way up on the list of the movies I have seen most in my life because my. My sister, Romuly, past and future guest, longtime sister, was not a kid who obsessively watched the same thing over and over again. Other than this one film, which for seven years was in constant rotation, is Eddie Murphy's Daddy Daycare. Daddy Daycare.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, yeah, we've spoken about this, because this was a similar thing where it's like, I was watching this genuinely every single weekend at my friend's house. It's like, we're gonna have a sleepover.

[Griffin]

It's dare.

[Rebecca Alter]

We're gonna watch Daddy Daycare.

[Griffin]

I think Daddy Daycare is very funny, but I. It could be Stockholm syndrome. It is a movie I will defend as like, no, that one's actually well written and it has a good cast. But also, I've seen it so many times that if I didn't find it funny, I. I wouldn't have been able to survive.

[David]

Number six, opening this weekend new, is my favorite Eliza Dushku horror franchise, Wrong Turn, which Wikipedia calls the first installment in the Wrong Turn series. It's like, let's relax.

[Griffin]

What's your second favorite Eliza Dushku horror franchise?

[David]

Out of curiosity, all those other ones she's done. I do love Dushku, though. Who doesn't love a little Douchku?

[Griffin]

Yeah, douchebag it up.

[David]

Number seven is, are you a Douchebag.

[Griffin]

What do you say you self identify as Douchebag? Yeah.

[David]

Number seven is X2. Number eight is the in laws. So that's with Albert Brooks, right?

[Griffin]

Bombing at the same time.

[David]

Big bomb.

[Griffin]

Well, huge bomb.

[David]

Number nine is another bomb, but a great film. Down with love.

[Rebecca Alter]

Love.

[David]

And number 10 is probably the most important cultural text of 2003. The Lizzy Maguire movie.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, my God.

[Griffin]

Made the mistake of opening against X.

[Rebecca Alter]

What a summer that was. The summer of the Lizzie McGuire movie.

[Griffin]

Hey now. Hey now. This is what dreams are made of.

[David]

The only risk in taking.

[Rebecca Alter]

Sing for me, Paolo.

[David]

An adventure is not taking it at all.

[Rebecca Alter]

I have a very defining, sort of defining Nemo message.

[Griffin]

A real kind of defining memory of all the girls in my grade going to see Lizzie McGuire movie that Friday, opening day, same day that X2X Men United came came out. And the girls were angry that none of the boys wanted to go see Lizzie McGuire. And I quite a big fan of the X Men. And I remember the girls in my grade basically being like, if you come see the Lizzie McGuire Movie with us, someone will make out with you.

[David]

Did anyone?

[Griffin]

No, I didn't go see it. Of course. I went to X2. X Men United.

[David]

X Men. The X Men are united in this film.

[Griffin]

I was like, I'm sorry, you don't understand what you're up against here. You have no leverage in this conversation.

[David]

Shoe was a pretty exciting day. That was pretty cool.

[Griffin]

I was like nightcrawlers in this one.

[David]

I know. And it was just kind of that thing of, like, the first one worked. So they're gonna get to be a little, like, more off the leash with this.

[Griffin]

I was like, you could promise me that Jessica Alba would make out with me and I wouldn't go see the Lizzie McGuire movies right now.

[David]

And herself.

[Griffin]

Can we talk about theme parks, please?

[Rebecca Alter]

So a couple of very important things. It was revolutionary at the time. Turtle Talk with Crush. So Epcot has an. The second largest research aquarium in the country is within epcot. It is something that Disney does not take enough advantage of. It's a wonderful little aquarium.

[Griffin]

And I think of interest to David was basically seen as on the chopping block in the early 2000s. All this educational, scientific shit is lame. We gotta get characters back in here.

[Rebecca Alter]

They have rescue manatees there. So they decided, I thought that they

[Griffin]

had a blockbuster fish movie saved all this shit.

[Rebecca Alter]

The Seas is now gonna be rebranded the Seas With Nemo and Friends. And one of the great attractions there is Turtle Tank Talk with Crush.

[David]

Yes, that's where I've seen videos of this.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. It's really.

[Griffin]

At the time, it was live puppeteering, basically. Like, we had an animated model that could do crowd work so the audience would be there.

[David]

It's like, your name's Griffin. Wow.

[Griffin]

They had cameras. They make jokes about the guy wearing the silly hat.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's so cohesive because you're looking at all these fish tanks at the aquarium. And then you go to one that's like a fish tank, but it's a screen and it's crush. And he makes jokes with all the kids. And it's fun. There's also a little ride where you're riding in shells and. And the characters from Nemo are being projected onto windows into the real tanks.

[Griffin]

But then there are also some sculptures and you're seeing real fish. It's like they kept using Nemo characters as the bait to get children to engage with real aquatic life.

[Rebecca Alter]

There's also. I don't want to talk about it because it sucks. But they reskinned at Disneyland the submarine voyage ride with Nemo stuff.

[Griffin]

I could not disagree more. This is one of my favorite attractions. Actions.

[Rebecca Alter]

I want to skip over that.

[Griffin]

It is one of my safe spaces.

[David]

It's now called Finding Nemo. Submarine voyage.

[Rebecca Alter]

Convince elevator pitch.

[Griffin]

You go into a submarine that is on tracks. They make you feel like it's free floating, but you are genuinely underwater. And then it is a technical marvel where you are going around in a loop. While the Thomas Newman score soothes my anxiety. And you see a combination of real fish and, like, incredible projection where it looks like real animation is happening outside the window of the submarine.

[Rebecca Alter]

I'm gonna be honest. You're selling me.

[David]

But what was lost?

[Rebecca Alter]

Nothing was lost. It was just already kind of like a dull experience. But you're right. Adding the IP onto it doesn't.

[Griffin]

Yeah, it was. It was more like.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's a unique ride mechanic.

[Griffin]

A big fake octopus attacks you and you have like a Jacques Cousteau style narrator just telling you about it.

[Rebecca Alter]

It's just funny because it's so. To most people, it would be very anxiety inducing. You're going into a small claustrophobic capsule and going underwater.

[David]

How many people are on the sub?

[Rebecca Alter]

No, it's a very slow moving line.

[Griffin]

Yeah. But it's. You all have your own seat. The seats face in opposite directions. Everyone has their own little hole they get to look at. I think I would find it anxiety provoking. Did it not have my good friends and the Thomas Newman score and the vibes and the Colors. Maybe that's why I like it so much.

[David]

It's 12 minutes.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[David]

That seems very long.

[Griffin]

I love these rides that are just like.

[David]

I'm not anti.

[Griffin]

Shit's gonna slow down. You just get to stay seated. Nothing's gonna happen to your tummy. These are nice kind of refresh points in a theme park day of like. I can just vibe out here.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. And it's less overstimulating than like A Small World or something.

[Griffin]

Yes. I never skip it.

[Rebecca Alter]

The last thing I wanna bring up. Cause I think it is one of the greatest achievements of the 21st century at the theme parks. Which is at Animal Kingdom. Finding Nemo the Musical. I think this is a really, really significant piece of theme park entertainment.

[David]

The Big Blue and beyond.

[Rebecca Alter]

This is the reap. So a few years ago they were like, we need to cut down the runtime.

[David]

I'm looking so I understand the context.

[Rebecca Alter]

That's a bastardized version.

[Griffin]

40 minutes. Now it's like 20 minutes.

[Rebecca Alter]

This was the first time Disney worked with Robert and Kristen Lopez.

[Griffin]

This is what's interesting about this.

[David]

David.

[Rebecca Alter]

So. So they got them off of Avenue Q to be like, cheering.

[Griffin]

He's holding up big foam fingers.

[David]

And a pen sign is so far away. Ben.

[Rebecca Alter]

That the stage uses the vertical space for these underwater creatures.

[Griffin]

It's some Julie Taymor style. You see the puppeteers visibly. But the puppets are in different ways worked around their bodies.

[Rebecca Alter]

The Nigel puppet is incredible. The most impressive. Biggest thing I've ever. Outstanding. Outside of the King Kong musical. It's like that Nigel puppet is jaw dropping. And the song that they do for the Turtles is so good. It's like a Beach Boys type thing. And it's just awesome.

[Griffin]

I also think Not My dad is a great song.

[Rebecca Alter]

Debo's where's. Well, first it's where's my dad? And then it's not my dad. Right.

[Griffin]

When Nigel tries to tell him the

[Rebecca Alter]

story in the big blue world. Like, these songs are genuinely for theme park entertainment. It is an excellent family musical. I don't understand why they've never tried to do it.

[Griffin]

On a question. The Lopez is over delivered on a theme park which made Disney go like, oh, fuck, we gotta have these people work on everything. Which leads to obviously Frozen and Coco and all these other things.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

I have never understood why they've never attempted to transfer this to Broadway. Because even just like the visual approach, they cracked the code on how to make these characters work on stage. They cracked the puppets. The songs are good. I'm like, if you just doubled this length. And I'm sure they would just write more songs easily.

[Rebecca Alter]

Right. And there's so many good songs packed into it already.

[Griffin]

This thing would be a huge fucking hit. And instead of ever transferring it after like 15 years. Years, they were like, let's make it shorter.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And now it's like a 15 minute, like greatest hits abridged version.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. But I will never stop.

[David]

Is that just to move people through? Like, why abridge?

[Rebecca Alter]

Maybe kids attention spans nowadays. And also probably some equity thing with the performers. Like, this is a really. Especially Crush's song.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Alter]

For a guy to be singing that, it's. It's tough on the vocal cords.

[David]

It looks like Crush's song is called Go with the Flow.

[Rebecca Alter]

It absolutely is.

[Griffin]

But David, theme parks love having shows like this that are successful because they're people eaters. They take pressure off the lines for the rides. If you can get someone to sit down for 40 minutes and if you can pack a house. And this was one of the few shows that people were like, this is actually good. It's not just kind of like a shitty restaging of, you know, there was the Al.

[David]

I know Becca has to go. I was going to say you guys could just keep going. I feel like you guys, for another.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, God, I really do need to go soon.

[David]

Have you ever been on podcast the ride?

[Rebecca Alter]

No, because I haven't been. Well, we've spoken about it. But then like, I don't know when I'm going to be in LA next.

[Griffin]

Podcast the ride and don't always do a lot. It feels like you have been inevitable on Facebook and the schedules never line up.

[Rebecca Alter]

This is the beginning of my, like, Life's wish Triple Crown.

[David]

Right. Like, I feel like for you, like, being on Blank Check is an enjoyable lark, but. But like it's a mere stepping stone to podcast.

[Rebecca Alter]

No, no, no, no, no. You misunderstand. I love playing Trailer.

[David]

Well, that's very nice of you. I love everything you do.

[Rebecca Alter]

A masterpiece of podcast. It's a dream to be on the podcast that I like so much.

[David]

Is there no other Nemo theme park stuff?

[Rebecca Alter]

Well, there's Crush's Coaster in Paris. There's a simulator in Disney Sea, but.

[Griffin]

Oh, Crush's Coaster. Yeah, Crush's Coaster is. It's very good. It is the exact kind of ride shell you hate. It's a shell that's moving fast and you're spinning.

[David]

You're in an indoor roller coaster, a mousey type ride.

[Griffin]

They play the kind of surf Rocky. Yes. Hey, I like that you knew the term.

[David]

Right. Isn't that what they're called?

[Griffin]

Tiny mouse coasters? It's very fun. It's in the.

[David]

Doesn't sound fun to me.

[Griffin]

Yeah, but you would. You would hate it.

[David]

Sounds like.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

What was the other thing?

[Griffin]

But they play the Thomas Noonan, like, surf rock score. The environment's very fun. They have lights and colors.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. And that's in the bad part of Disneyland Paris. Right. Although it's just now rebranded it now. They have Olaf there.

[Griffin]

They have Aaron there.

[Rebecca Alter]

Children get to learn about death by watching Olaf power down in front of them.

[David]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Griffin]

I fall down on a boat.

[Rebecca Alter]

Which is so Parisian. It's so the ennui of make. They made an animatronic for Disneyland Paris. Who dies in front of you? Yes.

[David]

I will say Crush's coaster doesn't look that intense. I'm watching it.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah. It's a family coaster.

[Griffin]

This is the other thing. With Disney, nothing is that intense. But that is as close to being a thrill ride as Disney gets, basically.

[Rebecca Alter]

Oh, disagree.

[Griffin]

Well, what do you put higher?

[Rebecca Alter]

I'm saying even at that park, Indiana Jones is way more intense.

[Griffin]

I made the mistake of getting. My brother was living in France at the time, and I took him to Disney and he showed up with his backpack and his laptop because he said, I'm gonna have to just do some work at some point.

[David]

Sounds like a brother.

[Griffin]

And so he was really worried about the security of his laptop. And he was like, this thing isn't going to go upside down. Right. And I was like, no, it's Disney. Nothing goes upside down.

[Rebecca Alter]

Down.

[Griffin]

He was very angry at me at the end of that ride.

[David]

Does it go upside down?

[Griffin]

It does. It's the mine part roller coaster.

[David]

Watching it.

[Griffin]

It does one loop, I think so.

[David]

One little. One little saucy loop.

[Griffin]

He was holding onto his backpack.

[Rebecca Alter]

I will plug vulture.com.

[Griffin]

sure.

[Rebecca Alter]

And that's pretty much it, I think. What do you mean?

[David]

Popcorn bucket.

[Rebecca Alter]

They've cancelled. They've canceled, my ass.

[Griffin]

It's.

[David]

That's the man.

[Rebecca Alter]

The man didn't want me speaking truth about Devil Wears Prada. Bucket shaped like a bag. We tried to fucking Michael Jackson. Bucket shaped like a hat. They don't want me revealing these stories.

[Griffin]

And I'll say tried to force the issue through critical darlings.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, we really did so actually comment on. On all of Vulture's social media saying, bring back the popcorn buckets.

[Griffin]

The buckets still exist. I came in today asking Becca to do a bucket trade because I never got the Fantastic car from Fantastic Four First Steps. And I said I would promise to trade her the F1 popcorn bucket. That was supposed to be part of the critical darlings Oscar nominees segment. You're in review. And Becca has made it clear that she does not want the F1 bucket.

[Rebecca Alter]

I have five Melania buckets on my desk. I don't know what to do with them.

[Griffin]

Those things talk about being worth negative comedy points. Well, the Melania Bucket, they make me laugh.

[David]

Okay, well, then that's Lee Cronin's the Mummy. Have a bucket that's like a dead child. I'm off.

[Rebecca Alter]

I'm off. Be it. They. They pulled me off the case.

[Griffin]

It's an injustice. And let's.

[David]

What if it was just Lee Cronin? That would be good just to honor

[Griffin]

his Lee Cronin's the popcorn.

[David]

Exactly.

[Griffin]

Let's make it clear our listeners, let your voices be heard. Yes, Becca. Previously on the Masthead. Chief popcorn critic. Yeah, Popcorn bucket critic. And we want this reinstated. We want the coverage back.

[David]

Bring back bucket.

[Rebecca Alter]

Yeah, but in the same way that you should all join Blank Check Patreon, you should.

[David]

This is a good plug.

[Rebecca Alter]

Subscribe to a magazine.

[Griffin]

Subscribe to a magazine.

[David]

I'm a. I'm a New York magazine subscriber.

[Griffin]

Hashtag bring back Becca's buckets.

[David]

Sure. And on the day the release of this episode, June 21st, over on Patreon, RoboCop 2 is coming out.

[Griffin]

Oh, a movie I love as much as Finding Nemo.

[David]

A movie. A commentary where we're kind of like, this isn't very good the whole time. Oh, I'm sorry. Can we take that? We reveal our deepest secrets.

[Griffin]

I get pretty worked up. I don't want people to think I'm pretty worked up.

[David]

No, no, no. You get pretty worked up.

[Griffin]

I get pretty.

[David]

But I think we're even handed and fair about its flaws.

[Griffin]

I try not to be an.

[David]

Right. We're not just, like, all over it. We're just kind of like, my car shows up randomly that we've never talked about before. It kind of looks like me. Like, oh, you're doing, like, fun sweep sweep kind of stuff. Yeah, right.

[Griffin]

Joe Biden's the guest appears. Right. We. It. We have Orkel, Stefan or Kelly.

[David]

Okay.

[Griffin]

Steve Urkel and the Urkel Bot all appear on the episode Take us Out.

[David]

When AJ recently plugged Urkel in our group chat.

[Griffin]

No. Did he?

[David]

Yeah, he did.

[Griffin]

This is another thing I've been thinking. Interesting. And. And AJ kind of look similar.

[David]

Yeah, sure, sure.

[Griffin]

Got some AJ Vibes?

[David]

Yeah, a little bit, Yeah. I mean, you're just talking about, like a guy in a half zip with, like, hair. I mean, like, not. Not to insult aj. It's kind of like a normal looking guy. Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin]

AJ's very handsome, but he looks like the default video game avatar before you.

[David]

He's right. He's your sim before you start doing stuff. Sorry, sorry. Aj, you're very good looking. I prefaced it with very employee is good looking. Jj, especially stupid sexy.

[Griffin]

It actually sucks. I hated spending a weekend with his fucking hot ass. I'm going to stand next to him.

[David]

And former employee Nick texts me after meeting Ben, being like, what's his skincare routine? Yeah, I was like, nick, why would I know? I mean, that is funny that he asked you, but ask Ben. I don't know. Where's my secret? I don't do. Yeah, that was my. That would have been my guess.

[Griffin]

AJ and his family came into the city and we got lunch with AJ and his son, and he was telling me that he's. He's into SNL now. AJ's son, who's like eight, I think.

[David]

Sure.

[Griffin]

And so I was asking him about, like, which sketches he likes and which cast members he likes, likes, and I was like, do you like Colin Jost? And he went, who's Colin Jost? And AJ went, the guy where. Where he comes on screen, you point and go, daddy.

[David]

Dude, dude. Someone at one of our live shows texted me, like, I think Colin Jost is here.

[Griffin]

AJ is like, that's AJ.

[David]

Like, that's just AJ.

[Griffin]

Yeah. So Colin Jost, Andrew Stanton, AJ McKean, all on a spectrum. I just want to establish this at the beginning of the miniseries.

[David]

You guys are huge. Colin, joke on a announced to sit in the anod debts.

[Griffin]

Aj. I overheard Colin Jost talking about making edits to a Patreon episode. Why is he doing that?

[David]

I'm gonna pee. Take us out.

[Griffin]

Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. I'm very excited to be talking about the films of Andrew Stanton. I mean, few filmmakers we have ever covered or will ever cover more conform to the intro of this show. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are making given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those checks clear Wally. And sometimes they bounce Baby John Carter in three films. That's the whole fucking premise of this podcast. That's all. I just. I'm very excited to be doing this and I'm very excited that we're going to talk About Toy Story 5 on main feed, and I'm very excited and I'm glad that David's in the bathroom when I'm saying this so he doesn't get jealous that Forky's getting married in Toy Story 5. 5. Forky's wedding. Forky's wedding. Ben Forky's gonna make Karen Beverly an honest knife. Tune in next week for Wall E with David Ehrlich, a man who has seen that film 800 times, I think, approximately. And as always, Forky is getting married. Okay, I'm just. I'm making these edits here. David, you're gonna have to be Nemo.

[David]

Okay.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

I think that's the lighter lip.

[David]

I'm born for that role. What do you mean it's not the lighter? You have to be Marlon. If you're not Marlin, it's a disaster.

[Griffin]

Correct.

[David]

I mean, I think you should just do your Marlin line that you've been doing on this show for 11 years, which is the.

[Griffin]

It's like you think you can do these things, but you can't do them.

[David]

You've said that so many times on Blank Chat.

[Griffin]

I think one of the best lines of screenwriting.

[David]

Well, it's also like, clearly your Brooks is, like, locked into that line.

[Griffin]

Like, yeah, it's my activator.

[David]

Right?

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin.