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Griffin
Blank check with Griffin and David. Blank check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect.
David
All you need to know is that
Griffin
the name of the shadow is blank Jack. Hey, guess what? Podcasts. I recorded one and it was three and a half hours long.
David
Three and a half hours long?
Griffin
Yep.
David
Oh. Cause Sandy Plankton said they only run two hours, tops.
Griffin
Sandy Plankton? You think I would do an entire podcast and not know as much as Sandy Plankton? It was three and a half hours, not two.
David
Very good. So that's the end of the movie.
Griffin
Yeah, it's one of the last lines of the.
David
One of the emotional lines. It does. Makes me cry too.
Griffin
There's like five different moments in this film that at very least get me right up onto the edge. On the brink of the tear.
David
To me, the big moment is just crash. Seeing his age. That's the moment. That's the one.
Griffin
Yes. Interesting.
David
Beautiful moment. It's so beautiful.
Griffin
This movie is just filled with these little grace notes that are, I just think, so elegant, that are funny and charming and don't feel like they're hitting too hard.
David
Agree.
Griffin
It is, in my opinion, this is like one of those movies that should be taught in every kind of like conventional Hollywood sort of storytelling lab or whatever. Yeah. Cause it's just. It is an incredible setup. Payoff movie.
David
Another thing that's filled with grace notes is the notebook of the character, the main character from project Hail Mary.
Griffin
Oh. Because his name is Ryland Grace. I think there's not enough discussion of the fact that Ryan Gosling plays rylandgrace
David
Ryland Grace, because it's a Hail Mary full of grace, I believe is the Jesus Christ. I think that's what Andy Weir, who's in my opinion, a master of subtlety, is going for there.
Griffin
I enjoy that movie greatly. And I think I'm. I'm. I'm now forced by law to knock it down a star. Now that you've explained that to me,
David
I. I mean, it's just my read on it. I mean, look, why do they. Why is it called Tinder?
Griffin
Speaking of, why is it called Tinder?
David
Cuz you get matches and. And it's one of those things that I tell people all the time and they're like, that can't be true. And I'm like, that's literally why it's called that.
Griffin
Unfortunately, I am required by law to go onto the app store and knock Tinder down a star as well, because
David
famously, you rated it five stars in the app.
Griffin
Perfect app only Good things have ever come of it. In my mind. There are only a few perfect apps. Facebook, Twitter, X.
David
But yeah.
Rebecca Alter
Yes. Truth Social.
Griffin
Well, I.
David
Truth Social. Very good.
Griffin
I count Twitter and X as two separate apps and both of them get five stars. Right. It's Terminator versus Terminator 2.
David
Right. X. I wish I could give it six stars because they improved on perfection.
Griffin
They did. I'm just saying that to invoke another Albert Brooks film.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
Everyone made a fucking meal out of. You're telling me Emma mackey is Ella McKay. We've gone too far. No one's saying, really, in this day and age, in this economy, Ryan Gosling is Ryland Grace Rhineland.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, you can't spell one without the other.
Griffin
They're just very similar.
David
It's weird. Oh, Rocky. The rock character is called Rocky.
Griffin
Yeah. That was also one of our biggest movie stars. I would say now he's maybe top 10 ren track.
David
What was Tony Erdman called?
Griffin
What was Tony Erdman called?
David
Sandra Houler. You know, it'd be funny if she's just called Tony Erdman. I know that's not her name in that movie either.
Griffin
Yeah, it's the dad's character's name.
David
I know.
Griffin
What's her name in the movie?
David
It'd be funny if she was just like, hello, I'm Tony Erdman. I run space over there.
Griffin
Sandy Heller. Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
I do think now we need to have her singing in every movie.
Griffin
I agree.
David
Look, I mean, I assumed that was a reference to Toni Urban. Right. That's Lord and Miller being cute, having her do karaoke and I thought that was fun.
Griffin
And also being, hey, you know, she does this in a movie. It kind of like knocks everyone's socks off. That's an effective move that we've identified that 9% of the audience won't have seen. Like, we all sit there patting ourselves on the back going like, oh, interesting Tony Erdman reference.
David
Maybe they should do Tony Erdman in imax.
Rebecca Alter
Wasn't there going to be an ill fated American Tony Erdman?
Griffin
Lenham Nixon and Dunham. Lena Dunham 2chillist.
David
Yep.
Griffin
You were wrong. Lena Dunham was writing and directing. Kristen Wiig was going to co star with Jack Nicholson.
David
I didn't actually know that Wiig was involved. The weird thing about that is it's like, don't do that. But I'm like, those are the people to pick. I suppose.
Griffin
It's also a movie. I would say on paper, force majeure had this. But downhill didn't nail this where you're like there is a version of this premise that works as a much broader studio comedy. I would not resent you trying to remake it and just doing the more obvious version of it.
David
Maybe don't make it 2 hours and 40 minutes long or whatever.
Griffin
Right.
David
They have the scene where they all get naked.
Griffin
Yeah. Nicholson was going to show a lot of dick. That's what I heard.
David
But Tony Irvin finding doesn't get naked in that scene. Right. Because does he show up in the outfit? In the animal, in the.
Griffin
The.
David
The beast outfit?
Griffin
No, that's the very end.
David
Yeah, that's the end.
Griffin
There's she's naked and. And the younger woman that he's with is naked.
David
The bosses. The boss shows up.
Griffin
Right. The boss is naked. Maybe he's not naked.
David
I think Tony Erdman. Yeah.
Griffin
Do you know that the younger naked woman. And I already resent framing it this way.
David
Dear me.
Griffin
Do you know that that actress.
Rebecca Alter
I love Tony Erdman.
Griffin
So good. Do you know that that actress. That actress co wrote Malignant. And I was like, why did that happen? And then I dug deeper. She is married to James Wan.
Rebecca Alter
Wow.
David
Dang wow. Engaged to him in 2019. Tony Urban came out in 2016. Maybe he saw it was like, who's this beautiful woman?
Griffin
And what movies could she possibly have in her head about monster skull creatures?
David
It is funny that she was like, you know what I've always been thinking about? What if is Face on Back of Face.
Griffin
Yes.
David
What if you had one extra face?
Griffin
One extra face.
David
And it does martial arts. Now she's in Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom and she's in all his movies. She's in the Nun. Well, he didn't make that.
Griffin
But she has a screenplay credit on Malignant, right?
David
She sure does.
Rebecca Alter
And that is a delightful screenplay.
Griffin
That's a well written film. Another film that should be studied in schools.
David
That's a great film. The only problem I have with that film is it came out in the deep pandemic and I kind of don't remember it is. I need to rewatch it.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
You know, that was a Project Popcorn movie.
Griffin
I saw it in theaters and I overheard one of the worst post movie conversations I've ever had. Just two bros at the urinal saying like, dude, is that like bad on purpose? Like he needs to have his filmmaking license revoked. Like, how do you not understand that you're making a movie that is like literally bad?
David
Right.
Griffin
And they just kind of kept stewing in that zone.
Rebecca Alter
I have no patience.
Griffin
No.
Rebecca Alter
For people who view things like Malignant in that way.
David
You don't.
Griffin
You just don't deserve movies. It's not even. You don't deserve nice things. You don't deserve movies.
David
I deserve all the movies, though, including the movie Finding Nemo, in my opinion, A perfect film.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. I almost think we don't deserve it as humanity.
Griffin
I think it's the Tinder of we
David
deserve it in 2013. I mean, 2003.
Griffin
We needed it in 2003. I don't know if we deserved it. It was like the dark Knight.
David
We were in Iraq.
Griffin
It was the hero we needed, not the hero we deserved. We were in Iraq.
David
I was 17 years old. I saw this film in Iraq, America. I was here on vacation.
Griffin
On holiday.
David
On holiday. I saw it by myself, I'm pretty sure at the Regal Union Square.
Griffin
And I'm sure you spent the entire movie fuming, oh, yes. At the consideration it showed towards the Australian people.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, my God. I didn't even make the connection. That's what fucking fish.
Griffin
Want to go to Sydney?
Rebecca Alter
A David Australian corner.
Griffin
It's a lawless land.
David
I would say this movie does not make Australian humans look good. And the only two speaking Australians are the dentist and the the granddaughter. They're both a little villain.
Rebecca Alter
The world's most horrific.
Griffin
The dental is a fun guy.
David
He's kind of fun, I guess. He's sort of. He's kind of the classic dentist. Like, I think the humor of that is really good, where he's like, how you doing? And then he just, like, tortures people all day.
Griffin
Oh, David's whipping the stereotypes back up.
David
Well, it's three dogs.
Griffin
Like, sure.
David
Oh, you know, mate.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Do you think the dentist should realize what's going on with Darla and stop giving her fish? I guess he doesn't know the fish talk.
Griffin
That's the thing I really like.
David
He doesn't know that, like, Alice and Janny could voice one of these things.
Griffin
It's the thing I really like about the Toy Story. Certainly the first 2 Toy Story 1 has this. This has this. Some of the Pixar movies have this. But this is a movie in which no one is consciously a villain.
David
Yeah. Yeah, I guess you're right.
Griffin
Because, like, the conflict.
David
Even the sharks are nice.
Griffin
Yes.
Rebecca Alter
And the angler fish doesn't really have consciousness. That's like, not a sentient fish.
David
Although, Becca, good point. Like, what's up with that? Why doesn't he.
Rebecca Alter
Well, there's also. We learn that they. There exists in the ocean petting zoos with snails. So snails aren't people. But then like little shrimp.
Griffin
There is a cat system.
David
I love when a Pixar movie just has a fun joke because they're like, that's a fun joke. And then like 20 years later, I'm like, but I don't. How does this fit into their theory of consciousness?
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, this works into the implications of like there being a car's pope.
Griffin
David, David, I can explain it. It's very easy. The witch From Brave carved 20 wooden sculptures. Each of them given.
David
I'm well aware. Do they. Are they still doing that with like, you know, like, Elio will come out and they're like, all right, how do we fit this into our grand Pixar unified theory?
Rebecca Alter
Well, Elio just exists like in present day Earth and present day space.
David
Yeah, I guess recently they've been kind of hitting here. Griff, let me tell you something and then we'll introduce the show. Okay. I just wanna tell you one thing.
Rebecca Alter
Okay.
David
I was at the bar last week with my friend Caitlin, co host of Hits different, my baseball podcast.
Griffin
Secret Podcast.
David
It's not a secret. I want everyone to listen to it. Watching the Mets game and then they're like, hey, we're doing trivia. You know, hey, you wanna do trio? They like, they have a sheet.
Griffin
This is kinda how you and I became.
David
This is true. And I was kinda like, bro, you're a sports sport. We don't need trivia. Like, pick a thing, right? Like, I'm already watching, but okay. And they're like, there's four rounds and you get to double one of the rounds and you have to pick. We'll tell you the categories now.
Griffin
Like, like Daily double. You make a double or nothing for the. The value of Franklin park does it too.
David
Wasn't the bar was. It was 99 Rogers, not Franklin Park. Okay, Same idea. And so he's like, the categories are going to be like, this one's music. This one. And then he's like, the category three is animation. And I said to Caitlin, like, we're going to double that one. And Caitlin's like, really? And I'm like, I'm pretty sure you're.
Griffin
You're good at that. Yeah.
David
And it was 20 questions. Write down every Pixar movie. No sequels. Yeah, so write down every Pixar movie excluding the sequels. There's 20.
Griffin
Did you break a sweat?
David
I didn't. I was like, okay, great. And I like, kept going and I got 18. Do you want to know the two? I forgot. Like, then I. I run out of steam and I'm like, what the fuck? You know?
Griffin
Like, did you forget Elio?
David
Nope. Had Elio.
Rebecca Alter
Does Lightyear count as a sequel?
David
No. Yes. Lightyear counted as a sequel. He didn't want Lightyear.
Griffin
This is tough because I'm like the ones that are. Did you forget Soul?
David
I did not forget Soul. I'll give you a hint. One is a bad and somewhat forgotten Pixar.
Rebecca Alter
Good dinosaur.
David
Bingo. Good dinosaur. Which I've seen many times and yet still.
Griffin
I was gonna say, I assumed you'd remember that one because it is the shorthand. Easy punchline. Bad Pixar.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
David
Even. Even then the Tenonimity still heard it. The other one is one of the most iconic Pixar franchises. The worst one, but nonetheless a huge car is correct.
Griffin
You forgot cars.
David
That crazy. Just because, like, cars suck so bad that I kept being like, and what? I had fucking Elio.
Rebecca Alter
I had soul in 2006 that I
David
didn't see Cars in theaters. I'll tell you that.
Rebecca Alter
I still haven't seen it.
Griffin
You saw that.
David
Actually, my daughter never got into it. Like, she never. She's seen it, but she never yet. Although, I don't know. It hasn't really happened.
Griffin
I don't know. She still hasn't watched any of it.
David
No, she's seen Cars, but doesn't like it.
Griffin
Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
Of Lightning McQueen. I love the concept of Lightning McQueen.
Griffin
Speak on this.
Rebecca Alter
And Bonnie and Luigi and Doc Holliday or whatever. Like, I love the concept of all these cars. I just haven't seen the movie.
Griffin
I'm a little surprised. It feels like a thing you would hyper fixate on because there's like a lot of rabbit holes to fall down in the Cars universe of just lines of thinking. Not even like actual things to study.
David
That is true.
Rebecca Alter
Well, I love those. Like, I'll watch a YouTube video where someone. Yeah. Does this thing where they connect it all. And Cars is actually sci fi post apocalypse.
Griffin
That's the stuff to me. I mean, some of that's interesting to talk about.
Rebecca Alter
No, but it's too literal.
Griffin
Yes.
Rebecca Alter
Having to make it all.
Griffin
I just think, like, in the way that. The way that you're saying, like, oh, they have a petting zoo with snails. Like, what does that mean? Cars has seven things like that in every single every frame.
David
It's so true.
Griffin
Right. And it's not stuff that like, Pixar people are digging into online. It's the kind of stuff that like William S. Burrows would spiral over at a bar.
Rebecca Alter
You know what? Maybe if it was a movie called Highspeed Rail.
David
Go on. Thank you. Exactly.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. Maybe I just don't. Wait. The Biden video that came out yesterday
David
where he's like, doesn't this guy look like Obama? And he just brings a black guy on stage? No.
Rebecca Alter
But then the.
David
The thing that makes me you should
Griffin
be standing on the other side is
Rebecca Alter
he looks like him. Just enough. Just enough to be the funniest.
David
I mean, it's not like he brought out like an 80 year old man or something. Like what's going to happen?
Rebecca Alter
Yes. You think it's just going to be like some, you know, like random person in the crowd. Biden is just being senile.
Griffin
He didn't bring like Aaron Pierre on stage.
David
Lanterns. They're going to solve the crime with their powers. Where are the jackets?
Griffin
Mukasa, you don't need the full jumpsuits anymore.
David
Aaron Pierre was the voice of Jack Mufasa.
Rebecca Alter
He's young, he's. Well, he's like Barry Jenkins. Middle Mufasa.
Griffin
Right.
Rebecca Alter
And then because young Mufasa sings my favorite song in the world, which is called the I Always Wanted a brother song.
Griffin
I always wanted a brother. You don't remember that?
David
I have seen Barry Jenkins's Mufasa the Lion King. I'll admit it. It washed over me pretty fast. It didn't. I didn't. You know, I didn't really retain myself.
Rebecca Alter
I'm making you listen to the song after.
Griffin
I still have not listened to that. Watched that film. But the trailer only had one snippet of a song. The songs of course, written by friend of the show, Lin Manuel Miranda.
Rebecca Alter
Is it the Mads Mikkelsen?
Griffin
No, it was just. You heard them repeat. I always wanted a brother like five times.
David
He always wanted a brother.
Griffin
So it was kind of memed. I always wanted to.
Rebecca Alter
It's one of the many hooks in that song.
Griffin
Always wanted a brother.
David
Bye Bye is a song.
Griffin
It is, yeah.
Rebecca Alter
That's Mads Mikkelsen's villain song.
Griffin
It is a little insensitive of you to invoke hooks on the Finding Nemo episode. Because of course those are the true unseen villain.
Rebecca Alter
Yes, man. Like Bambi.
Griffin
The hook.
Rebecca Alter
Or hook. Like Peter Pan.
Griffin
Yeah. If he went hand fishing. Hook fishing.
David
I mean, sure, I've lost this picture
Rebecca Alter
him sticking a worm on that.
Griffin
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. The dentist is benevolent. He's not fucking catching Nemo frying him up. He thinks he's just like my little niece.
David
He used to have fish.
Rebecca Alter
She loves fish. He saved him. He's like, there Was this little baby clownfish all alone and I rescued it.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
That's a little bit of a savior complex thing where it's like all. I mean, he was in the fucking water.
Griffin
He found Nemo. Sure.
David
Okay.
Griffin
He saw the poster.
Rebecca Alter
He was like, he found in water.
Griffin
Challenge accepted.
David
But yeah, right. There's no real villain. The closest thing is Bruce, the great white shark. And he has worked to overcome his villain.
Griffin
But that's like a sequence. Angler fish is a seque sequence in
Rebecca Alter
100 thrilling, perfect, funny sequences.
Griffin
Yes, yes, exactly.
David
In 100 thrilling, perfect, funny minutes.
Griffin
There are contained movies 100 minutes long, self contained conflicts within the larger conflict, which is just how do you get across the fucking ocean? I think this movie sets up so perfectly the moment that Nemo's taken. You just start doing the math and you're like, how could he possibly find him?
David
It's sort of the Pixar magic of the moving truck drives away.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
And Woody is but a tiny little man. How the hell's he gonna get wherever they're going?
Griffin
I think this is the simplest and most extreme version of that where you're just like, I don't even understand how he could begin to make contact with him, to locate where he is, to scale that distance.
Rebecca Alter
I'm getting emotional at you saying that, thinking about everything that Marlon and Dory accomplished.
Griffin
It is the movie. The moment in this film that makes me cry without fail every single time is when Nigel recounts the news that has.
David
That's a lovely moment. It's a lovely moment done well by Oscar winner Geoffrey Rush with a pelican
Griffin
called Nigel and Oscar nominee Thomas Newman kind of going hard in that moment.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, the score.
Griffin
His eyes widening as Nigel's story goes down in the mix of his dad's heroism. See him pantomiming all the things that have happened and Nemo realizes how much his father loves him. It gets me choked up just thinking about it. Today we're talking about Finding Nemo, which is one of the most successful movies in history.
David
What is this miniseries called?
Griffin
I'm telling you what it's called.
David
Please.
Griffin
I was talking about it with a guest who will be coming up on this miniseries. Yes. I'm not gonna say. And I said, I've had this one locked and loaded in the chamber. No need to pitch. This miniseries is called. And it's not gonna work when I say it out loud, but it's really gonna work visually.
David
It will spell.
Griffin
This thing will spell padsi, P O D, D,
David
hyphen, C. I love It
Rebecca Alter
Pod C. I mean, what else are
David
you going to call it?
Griffin
We're not going to call it Potting Memecast, right?
David
Well, finding podcasts, who cares?
Griffin
Potting Casto in the pod of a cast Pod and Casty. That's. That's what was pitched to me. And I said, I don't think that's
David
what's Pod C. Pod C. Great. I love it. We're discussing here on Blank Check the Claude Carter Pod Carter.
Rebecca Alter
Name it after his most famous, memorable, beloved film.
Griffin
You know what I also like about calling it Pod Carter? It implies that it should have been called Podcarter of Cast, and then the of cast was cut out.
David
That is fun.
Rebecca Alter
It could just be podcaster, but then it would be impossible to tell what
David
that even we can't do.
Rebecca Alter
That is Right.
Griffin
Right. But also it's to pay respect to John Carter. It has to be the version of the title that doesn't really work.
David
We here are discussing this summer, this lovely summer that we're, I assume, having the films of Andrew Stanton. Six films total, I believe.
Griffin
Yes. Two of them released in 2026 alone. Yes.
David
Yes. A man after our own hearts.
Griffin
This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.
David
I'm David.
Griffin
It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers, such as releasing Finding Nemo, what at the time was the highest grossing animated film in history. The highest grossing film Disney had ever released in any division. And I believe it was at the time the sixth highest grossing film in history. I know you always get angry when I try to get you to Furious. Pull up these. What was the record at the time?
David
I can't.
Griffin
I did some research. I found fucking Wayback Machine archived box office Mojo pages. It was the sixth highest grossing film of all time.
David
I remember when this film beat the Lion King to become the highest grossing animated film of all time. Because there was a big fight on the Oscar Watch forums about which was the sort of more worthy film for that title.
Griffin
Yes.
David
Like some people like, ah, this sucks. Like this stupid, you know, fish movie. Lion King. So good. Other people like, Lion King's over.
Griffin
I remember Nemo's a fucking masterpiece. It also was humongous overseas. Yes. In 2003, it made, I believe, $850 million worldwide.
David
Yeah, sounds about right. And the number two of two, I
Griffin
think 2003, the only movie that beats it is Return of the King. And Return of the King becomes only the second film to ever make a billion.
David
Can you name the animated films that since dethroned the movie.
Griffin
This is what I was. This is what I was trying to do the math on. Right. Because it has the record for a year. It kind of like blows the ceiling off of what an animated film can do, especially globally. And then Shrek beats it a year later. It beats the opening weekend record. Trek to Shrek 2.
David
Sure.
Griffin
Shrek 2 beats it domestically. Beats the opening weekend record.
David
Right.
Griffin
Shrek 2 becomes the third highest grossing film in history at the time.
David
We love it at the time.
Griffin
I think it was Titanic, Star wars, and then Shrek 2 domestically.
Rebecca Alter
And of those I know my favorite
Griffin
now, I would argue this is the beginning of. I say this respectfully. The initiative occasion of the all time top 10.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
David
It just starts to be a lot of crap.
Griffin
It also starts to be like every year, two movies enter the 10. So the churn becomes so fast.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
Up until 2003, it felt like there was a 10. Where you're like, of course there are two Star wars in there.
Rebecca Alter
Gone with the Wind, those tights. Not adjusted.
Griffin
Not adjusted.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, well, then it's a useless metric. Not adjusted.
Griffin
You could look, you could compare the two lists. But it also felt like the unadjusted numbers were like, even. Unadjusted. Even ET Is still bigger than most movies ever released. And then everything starts kind of like usurping. So Shrek 2 dethrones Finding Nemo, and then I think Shrek 2 has it until Toy Story 3.
David
You are correct.
Griffin
And then basically it becomes a sequel rally.
David
This is the thing Despicable Me 2 does well, but I think doesn't quite beat Toy Story 3.
Griffin
And then finding Dory overtakes it.
David
You have Dory. Dory. But what about. Yeah, that's. No, Dory never overTook Toy Story 3. Although this is a little complicated because a lot of re releases have adjusted these numbers somewhat. Sure. But I can tell you Frozen certainly beat it. Frozen becomes the new number one. Beat Toy Story 3.
Griffin
Domestically, internationally, worldwide. This is all worldwide.
David
I don't have domestic. This is worldwide. And then it's sort of like, do we count the Lion King remake?
Griffin
This is the big question.
Rebecca Alter
It is.
David
Obviously it's entirely animated computer graphics and animation.
Griffin
They tried to pretend it wasn't. I would argue it held the record, but only for a little bit.
David
Yes. Because Frozen two. No, no. Lion King actually grows slightly more than Frozen 2.
Griffin
And did Incredibles 2 take over at any point?
David
Incredible 2's peak was 2.
Griffin
Okay.
David
A second.
Griffin
But I do think Incredibles 2 did take the domestic for a moment.
David
Yeah. But then Inside Out 2 and Zootopia 2 and Nejatu.
Griffin
Right.
David
Nejatu is now the number one highest grossing animated film worldwide. It has made $2.2 billion.
Griffin
And Zootopia 2 is the highest grossing American animated film. Right.
David
And also the best.
Griffin
Yeah, but this is another. This is another thing. There were very few animated sequels until Shrek 2 theatrically.
David
Right. Shrek 2 helps break the taboo of,
Griffin
like, Toy Story 2 was an outlier
Rebecca Alter
straight to video Disney sequel.
Griffin
Toy Story 2 was an outlier, of course. Bumped up from home video to theatrical. It's massive. But it doesn't overtake Lion King. And then Shrek 2 is the first sequel to take the crown. And it does feel like the stigma is off of doing animated sequels. And then it's just everyone playing like, I don't know, it's a baton race between the franchise.
Rebecca Alter
It's crazy that they did Rescuers Down Under.
Griffin
Yes.
Rebecca Alter
Especially when they did.
David
Wasn't that.
Rebecca Alter
What?
David
Go ahead.
Griffin
No, he knows. I'll tell you what the logic was. It was like Eisner and Katzenberg takeover, right?
David
And they're like, we want a sequel.
Griffin
They're like, we should do a sequel. That feels like a thing we should
Rebecca Alter
do to, like, our least beloved.
David
No, but I think they were just kind of like, Rescuers is one of the only ones that makes sense for a sequel.
Griffin
Truly, that's what most Disney movies have
David
a pretty definitive ending.
Griffin
That's the thing. What's wild is they were like. It feels like good business sense to do a sequel. But also, we should do a sequel that doesn't betray the integrity of the original film. So they still were making kind of like an artistically driven story decision where they're like, well, Rescuers is a book series. It feels more episodic. You can just send them on another mission. Every other Disney animated classic feels like
David
a closed loop with someone getting married or whatever. Pinocchio becomes a real boy or whatever.
Griffin
It was truly like, people.
David
Captain Hook is beheaded.
Griffin
People won't be insulted if we do Rescuers too. It won't be betraying the sanctions.
David
They should do Cinderella, too. And just like she got divorced.
Rebecca Alter
Well, they did two or three even straight to video. And one of them is a crazy time one.
Griffin
One of them's like a Back to the Future two.
David
Sounds good.
Griffin
Shit. People like it.
David
Oh, they do. Oh, oh. People like it, do they?
Griffin
People. Humans. I'm going to ask our guest, have you seen any of the direct to video Cinderellas?
Rebecca Alter
I Have not. But I'm sure I've watched some Jenny Nicholson or some such person recap them.
Griffin
Yes, yes. I think it's called a stitch in time.
Rebecca Alter
Maybe it's a something in time. And the weird thing is Cinderella 3.
David
A twist in time.
Griffin
A twist in time.
Rebecca Alter
Weird thing about those, they came out at the same time as all of the Barbie straight to video ones which were also doing some very exciting things with the same.
David
This does say unlike most direct to video sequels, this received generally positive reviews.
Griffin
Yeah, people like this one.
David
So it's maybe it's like what's the fairy goblin that goes back in time and like kills Hitler or whatever.
Griffin
Yeah, that's why they like it.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. Groups were really happy about that.
Griffin
Do you know who wrote or I shouldn't say wrote but. But much like Malignant has a screenplay credit part of the team on many of those Barbies 2000s animated films.
Rebecca Alter
Can you give a clue?
Griffin
He was played by Brian Cox in a movie.
Rebecca Alter
I don't know.
David
Robert McKee.
Griffin
Yes. Yeah, that's one of those things where Robert McKee story. The book that everyone talks about of like this is everything you need to learn about like ah, the three act structure, studio Western, you know, popcorn, screenplay structure. And they'd be like what has this guy done? Why am I listening to this guy? As an authority. And you look it up and it's mostly Barbie animated movies where he was like a story consultant. Today we're talking about Finding Nemo. Our guest, Rebecca Alter.
David
Becca.
Rebecca Alter
Hi.
David
Is this your main feed debut?
Rebecca Alter
It's my main feed debut and I'm
Griffin
gonna say the best movie you've been asked to cover on this show.
Rebecca Alter
Absolutely.
Griffin
I think this movie a little better. No offense Ben, than look who's talking now. Okay, fair enough. Slightly more successful has had slightly greater cultural impact.
Rebecca Alter
Both talking animal movies though.
David
True.
Griffin
This is true.
Rebecca Alter
I'm happy to carve. Elaine.
Griffin
It feels like it is an interest of yours. Is that fair to say?
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
This is one of your beats as a journalist. I guess so. Other Finding Nemo records, it is still the highest grossing physical media release of all time.
David
Is that so?
Griffin
The Finding Nemo DVD is like. And part of it is just. It comes out at the peak of DVD as a medium.
Rebecca Alter
That DVD went triple platinum in the built in minivan DVD player.
Griffin
True.
Rebecca Alter
In my mom's minivan.
Griffin
The accessibility of the video game consoles are adding DVD players. DVD players are in cars now. DVD players are in computers.
David
You know what else is in cars? Cars.
Griffin
In the movie movie cars I don't know if you guys caught this. A very insidious announcement.
Rebecca Alter
Not to the Baby Cars Home entertainment.
Griffin
That's the most evil shit I have ever seen.
Rebecca Alter
They're doing baby cars.
Griffin
They announced. Ben and Becca. They announced this week that there is a Disney Junior TV show that's like Muppet Babies with the Cars characters.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, wait. But Lightning had never met them before.
Griffin
I love that you know this much about the chronology without having seen any of the films.
Rebecca Alter
Well, do you know why?
Griffin
Why?
Rebecca Alter
Because I love Radiator Springs in Disney's California Adventure. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been to on Earth. So I said, I need to know the lore.
Griffin
Fellow gentlemen of the Blank Check podcast, there is going to be a good amount of theme park talk on this episode. I regret to inform you I warned
David
David in advance, have brought, like, a sleeping bag that I could just, like, curl up under. Or a hammock, maybe.
Rebecca Alter
Pour.
Griffin
Pour the caffeine.
David
Hammock on the porch.
Griffin
You're staying wide awake for this shit.
David
Question about the cars.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
The baby cars.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Are they wearing diapers?
Griffin
No, they're just kind of. They're like.
Rebecca Alter
They're leaking oil.
David
They just like. It's a good question, I guess.
Griffin
What. What's the term I'm looking for? Kawaii. Is that.
David
Yeah, kawaii.
Griffin
I mean, like, they just make them squished and rounder in their eyes.
David
Their eyes are bigger. I mean, we'll see this with Finding Dory, of course. When they have Baby Dory, you know,
Griffin
like, what is genuinely a billion dollar idea? Like, put Baby Dory at the beginning of the film.
David
Dory Small.
Rebecca Alter
Say what? I think the most consequential thing to come out of Cars is on the entire culture. We all grew up with the little tykes. Red car, yellow roof. That was a car.
David
Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
Sometime after Cars, they gave that car a face. Like, eyes and a face. And now kids grew up with that car being like a. Like a person. Yeah. Car that they're inside. And I don't think that would have happened.
Griffin
This is what Lightning Racers looks like. It. It only looks like 10% cuter than the regular car.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, they actually look identical, but I
Griffin
imagine they're gonna have little kid voices.
David
But is this suggest that, like, Lightning went to Radiator Springs as a child and knew Mater because, like, he's meeting them all for the first time.
Griffin
My understanding is that what it suggests is, who gives a shit? It's gonna make trillions of dollars. Much like Muppet Babies. Which doesn't really make sense as anything other than a what if alternate universe. The series follows Lightning McQueen as he takes on fresh challenges and races around Radiator Springs alongside his old pal material.
David
Is it just kind of like fuck it, like it's parallel? Don't worry about it.
Rebecca Alter
The new friends are thrill seeking drag car pipes and mud loving monster truck miles.
Griffin
Perfect.
Rebecca Alter
Which is a great name for a car.
Griffin
I mean it sounds like the fucking movie cast is back. Owen Wilson, Larry the Cable Guy, Bonnie Hunt. So they're all gonna have grown up voices. They're recasting Paul Newman.
David
Yeah, well he's dead. So I mean that is the reason to recast him.
Griffin
Right. I'm hearing this for the first time fighting Nemo. Bestselling DVD of all time. It's also, if you look at all the video game platforms of this moment, game boy color, PS2, Gamecube. It is like amongst the top 20 highest selling games on all of those platforms. It is just a movie that kind of coincides with like peak mainstream American media and the tendrils of it all just rise to the top.
Rebecca Alter
We had the Shark Tale PlayStation 2 game, but not the Nemo.
David
And what happens in the Sharktail video game.
Rebecca Alter
There was a level where you could make the Will Smith fish dance to. You can't touch this.
David
Yeah. Sounded pretty good.
Rebecca Alter
It was pretty awesome.
Griffin
Was it like Parappa the Rappa style dancing? Sounds like dancing. Revolution style dancing.
David
So I'm watching a full game play walkthrough here.
Rebecca Alter
That's the only part I remember. But we didn't have Shark Tale on home video and we did have Nemo.
Griffin
Yeah, kind of. Everyone had Nemo.
David
Shark Tale came out what, a year after Nemo.
Griffin
Yes.
David
I just remember being one of those things where like Nemo, which the movie we're going to talk about today, the water effects and like the way it looks, it's just such a staggeringly good looking movie.
Griffin
It still looks incredible.
David
I think it's maybe like the most beautiful movie Pixar ever made.
Griffin
Yes.
David
And then Shark Tale comes out a year later and looks like a fucking like PlayStation game.
Griffin
Yes.
David
Like, like the fish designs are horrendous, but all of it looks bad.
Griffin
But it also like there's like no water effect.
David
Right.
Griffin
There's no lighting and you're like how do they move? And it's like they sort of just walk upright in the water. Not on the ground, not on the ocean floor.
Rebecca Alter
And they have like houses and stuff.
Griffin
Yes, there's a, there's a. Ants and bug life.
David
Bugs life. Bug life.
Griffin
Bug life, sir. Mm.
David
Amusing myself. Like, they just, like, look distinctive. They were looked. They were going for different things.
Griffin
And in fact, you could argue that the DreamWorks one is the more realistic looking.
David
It's absolutely the more realistic looking one. And it kind of blew it off.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Ants ain't blue and do not have just two legs, you know, like in the DreamWorks one, they have four legs and two arms. It's, you know, whatever. It sort of was okay. And then, like, the comparison wasn't as drastic, I guess, is what I mean.
Griffin
Sure.
David
Finding Nemo. Shark Tale Disaster.
Griffin
I saw a thing Andrew Stanton said that really stuck with me, which he. When they started working on this movie, he was like, the challenge I pose to all of you is I don't want to anthropomorphize these fish. I want to figure out the way for them to be able to convey emotions within the physiology of how they actually work.
David
That's a good call.
Griffin
And it's one of these things where you watch this movie and it's like they create this rule for themselves that they hold themselves to, and the movie really doesn't fucking cheat on it. And it makes it all the more impressive how good I think the performances are in this movie. And I speak of the voice acting, which is obviously like, this is just an impeccably cast movie that changes a bunch of fucking careers and shit. But also the actual character animation performances of the movie are insane.
David
Who's your favorite?
Rebecca Alter
The Bench is so deep.
Griffin
It's so deep.
David
Deep, deep, deep.
Rebecca Alter
It's impossible.
Griffin
I think Brooks is the reason this movie really works. And we'll get into it watching it this time. And this is a movie I have seen more times than I can count. I was really, really locking into the Dafoe performance, which I think is incredible. Very good. Who. Who are your answers?
Rebecca Alter
Oh, I was thinking more than scary teacher. Oh, no.
David
Fucking all day and night. The model of pedagogy. That guy is the best Mr. The way he diffuses various things. Very teacher. There's nothing to see here. That and also when Nemo's trying to say. And he's like, all right, kid, don't knock yourself out. You know what I mean? Like, things like that. So good.
Griffin
This is to your point, Becca, though. It's like this movie has like 130 perfectly executed bits.
Rebecca Alter
Yep.
Griffin
Like, any character in this movie that would be kind of just like a functional point A to point B, exposition driver, or whatever they Give a character game that is so efficient and memorable and charming.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
Where no one in this movie feels like they're just filling a spot.
Rebecca Alter
The games are clear and distinct and they're all like. They all feel so satisfying. That's the other thing to the creature that they are.
David
My other favorite is Alison Janney. I love love Peach so much.
Griffin
But this is what we're talking about, right. Where it's just like there's a chain of logic that is very satisfying of like, what is the personality of a starfish? And you're like, well, if she's in
David
a tank, she sucks at the wall, she surveils. She's watching.
Griffin
Right. And then what's the superiority complex she has about that? She basically become. Becomes the know it all. Because her job is to be on watch. And then who's the person who voices that will of course get like the lady from the West Wing. That's what her personality would be like. All of these choices are so good. Satisfying in a chain of logic way. Everyone's incredible in this.
David
Is anyone bad?
Griffin
No. And like Bob Peterson, who you're calling out as Mr. Ray, is one of the Pixar guys.
David
Oh, I know. I know.
Griffin
He's Ross.
David
He's my friend.
Griffin
He is Doug.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
He, of course, was the original fire director of the Good Dinosaur, the movie. You can't even remember the fire director. Oh, fired.
Rebecca Alter
Okay.
Griffin
Right.
Rebecca Alter
Because it was Sown Sohn.
Griffin
It became a Pete Sohn picture. But that is the chaos period where suddenly, like, every director is getting fired. Every movie's being replaced.
David
Is son getting a third? He's doing Incredibles 3.
Griffin
He's doing Incredibles 3.
David
Little bit of a step down.
Rebecca Alter
It should be the Next Generation. And it's like, Jack. Jack's a dad.
David
That would be pretty funny. Craig T. Nelson's old.
Griffin
David's laughing.
David
I'm laughing. I don't know. Maybe it'll be good. It's totally not. It's totally gonna be Paddington in Peru, in my opinion.
Griffin
He wrote the script.
David
I know. So that's cool. Like, my guess is it'll be something where I'm like, this resembles what I like about the, you know, all of this. But it, you know, I can. It feels a little chintzy.
Griffin
Very frustrating. It's a little frustrating. Pete Stone has made this will be the third film he directs. We're gonna talk about a lot about Pixar director careers in this series, a thing I studied deeply. But he's directed three films. He's one of the Kind of Pixar brain trust. Top story guys who's worked on all these projects. And he himself has voiced so many beloved characters like Emil and Ratatouille.
David
Sure.
Griffin
Sox, who is arguably the only good part of Lightyear. Sox is fun.
Rebecca Alter
Definitely the only good part of Lightyear.
Griffin
Like, he's a really, really fun voice actor. Noted. Gun to your head. Can you name that character?
David
I just remember that he's riffing on a level that's just sublime.
Griffin
It is. He does some shit with a pen.
David
I couldn't name any fucking character in Lightyear. And it's called Lightyear and stars Buzz Lightyear. And I'm still like, is that character called Buzz Lightyear?
Griffin
I don't. I don't want you to call mental health hotlines on my behalf, but I did the other night fall down a rabbit hole of watching lightyear videos on YouTube.
Rebecca Alter
Well, it's the movie on the. About the man on which the toy is based.
Griffin
Becca, I'm sorry, but this is not a movie about the toy. This is a movie about the real person, Buzz Lightyear.
Rebecca Alter
The real person on which the toy was based.
David
Squirt in this movie is Brad Bird's son. I was about to say the little baby turtle. That's Brad Bird's son, Nicholas Bird, who
Griffin
Andrew Stanton heard him speak and was like, this is our generation's Thumper. Rarely do you find he might also be the. What are you waiting for to do? Something incredible, I guess. Kid in Incredibles, if I'm not mistaken.
David
Something amazing, I guess.
Griffin
Yeah, I think that's him as well. This is the cross pollination of all these things. This is a period of time where Pixar has been super tight and focused. Basically one dream team of people working in all these movies. And for the first time, it's starting to spread out. They're starting to have multiple productions running at the same time. You know, the first three movies are all directed by the same very normal man with really normal boundaries who just loves Huggin. And Pete Docter and Andrew Stanton were the first two people hired at Pixar. Yes.
David
They have their sort of initial fabled, kind of like early. What kind of movies could we do? Meeting right where they like.
Griffin
We're gonna crack open a dossier.
David
Yeah, let's crack open open the dossier.
Griffin
David. Yes. You got any big summer plans?
David
Sleep.
Griffin
Your plan is to sleep for the whole summer, Rip Van Winkle style?
David
Sounds good.
Griffin
I'll tell you what my plan is.
David
What's that?
Griffin
To drink AG1 every day of Course.
David
Well, you better or else you're going to crumble into dust.
Griffin
Problem. Any other plans I make would be foolish, foolhardy if I weren't also planning to regulate my system with AG1. Because it doesn't matter if you're traveling. You got late nights, packed weekends, zero structure any of those. Keeping AG1 in your routine helps you stay consistent. That's a loaded word right there. Consistent. When everything else gets. And here's another loaded word. Unpredictable.
David
Oh, I don't want that. And I know you don't either. Look, it's a daily health drink with a multivitamin.
Griffin
Yep.
David
Pre and probiotics.
Griffin
Yep.
David
Superfoods and antioxidants.
Griffin
An all star lineup.
David
One scoop eight ounces of water.
Griffin
You just shake it.
David
There you go. That's it.
Griffin
You drink it. It takes 30 seconds. Now the summers where you want to get a little lax and you want to let yourself go and have fun, but just these 30 seconds a day help keep everything else.
David
This is kind of like a. An old fashioned formula with like one to two ingredients, right? Wait a second. What?
Griffin
David, I'm laughing going on at your ignorance. This is a next gen formula that delivers 75 plus ingredients backed by four clinical trials. Clinically shown to support gut health, fill common nutrient gaps and improve key nutrient levels within three months. And I want to thank the announcer from bar rescue for jumping in for that one section.
David
Very exciting look. Late nights, long weekends, spontaneous plans. Life happens. AG1's gonna help you keep things consistent. Like Griffin's saying, consistent give you high quality nutritional support every single day. No matter where you're starting your morning. I know you drink it every single day. What's your favorite flavor right now?
Griffin
Right now I'm actually really big into berry. I've been cycling through them and I've really been enjoying this berry phase. I will say this as well, David.
David
Yes.
Griffin
You said wherever you are. I'm about to go away for six weeks and you better believe I just ordered a whole box of travel packs so that I don't have to travel unarmed.
David
I had no doubt. Visit drinkag1.com check to get your free morning person hat and free AG1 flavor sampler in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription. That's an $82 value. That's drink ag1.com check.
Griffin
When I wear that hat, it's going to be so ironic.
David
Yes.
Griffin
Basically, you know, Pixar is originally a computer technology company. They're like, we should have an animation division. Someone should be around with this Computer animation thing and seeing if there's any money there. It's, of course, a company started by George Lucas. John Lasseter is fired from Disney, where he was kind of constantly the guy who was next up to maybe direct a feature, the one that comes really close to happening is where the Wild Things Are. There's an animation test you can see that's really interesting. Lasseter, like when he saw Tron, was just like, this is the future. There's some future in combining these things, which Disney ends up obviously doing with Beauty and the Beast and Lion King with their big set sequences using CGI backgrounds. Where the Wild Things Are was supposed to be that. He also develops Brave Little Toaster, which is taken away from him, which feels very spiritually Pixar.
David
Yeah, it's a movie with Pixar juice. Even if it's right, like, kind of cheap and light on execution.
Griffin
Toy Story definitely feels like a refinement of everything he was starting to noodle with. But he gets fired. He goes to this computer conference. I think it's Siggraph. He makes the play. They hire him to be the animation guy. He's one dude noodling. And when they finally go, like, we have some extra budget to see if there's more that can be built here. Who would you want to hire? He goes to his two CalArts classmates, Pete Docter, who becomes the first person other than Lasseter direct Pixar movie Monsters Inc. And then Andrew Stanton's the second. That's sort of the next phase is the anointment of you guys get to make your own movies.
David
This is true. And yeah, they were pretty good before I opened the dossier. Becca, your experience with Finding Nemo, you're slightly younger than me. Did you see this in theaters?
Rebecca Alter
Absolutely. And I feel like everyone I've spoken to really remembers seeing it in theaters as well. I would have been nine and I think I loved it. But it was also a time when every year of my life, one new landmark animated movie would come out that felt like it was just a constant heightening because it was sort of like tail end of Disney renaissance and the early Pixars and Throw Shrek into the mix. Throw, you know, as a kid, it was huge. Ice Age into the mix. Every year there was a new animated movie that felt like the biggest thing in the world.
Griffin
You have basically concurrent with the decline of Disney feature animation, you have three new animation studios rising, and it's still basically only like two or three animated movies a year. Yeah, it is so different than the Current landscape where we're just inundated with shit.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. And they were like, really trying shit, like in a quality, like way to one up each other. So even though I didn't see Anastasia, I was too young when it came out. Like, that was a really important VHS tape. But Anastasia from Random Third studios joining the mix.
Griffin
I was gonna say Anastasia is part of the kind of like 90s rush. And there's the 80s rush as well, of like, Don Bluth has left. Other studios are trying to see Disney's week. Is there a chance to dethrone Disney and be the default animation studio? And then when Disney rises again, it's even more of a feeding frenzy of, Jesus Christ, they're making so much money. We should be in this business. But you look at those movies in the 80s and 90s and it's primarily either feature length adaptations of TV shows which are sort of their own thing and are often junkier and lower budget. Right. Or it's other studios trying to figure out how to crack the Disney playbook. Anastasia is very much, can we do the Disney thing? When Toy Story comes out, it's like this absolute lightning bolt of like, wait a second, is there actually not a one kind of formula pattern for what an American animated movie can be while being seen as like a level, you know, highbrow? And then I think Dreamworks and Blue sky, these other studios are all going like, fuck, is there a chance to like, define what your own thing is? There's new visual styles, possibly. There are new storytelling styles, There are new styles of humor, suddenly these things don't have to be musicals. They don't have to be based on fairy tales.
Rebecca Alter
Plus there's some stop motion entering the mix.
Griffin
Absolutely. Yep.
Rebecca Alter
I'll also say, like, even though I was becoming aware of movies during the era that like, that some people see as the decline of the Renaissance.
David
Sure.
Rebecca Alter
Because of when they came out. The age of like, Tarzan is still maybe my favorite.
David
This is something that, as you know, I like, am in media and whatever. I mean, I'm like, I know people who are a little younger than me and I'm like, right, Tarzan? Like, I don't. I saw that in theaters. But by then I was like, oh, the juice is out of this. I mean, Emma Stefanski in our Treasure Planet episode great. Where I was like, right. I didn't even see this shit. And she's like, oh, I. When I saw this, I assumed it was the biggest hit of all time. Like, it was just a giant movie for us.
Griffin
The differences Tarzan Was a huge hit.
David
Tarzan was a huge hit.
Griffin
Tarzan, like, but to me was just. And Tarzan rips massive soundtrack.
David
I mean, you'll be in my heart, right?
Rebecca Alter
Phil Collins.
David
Yeah. I don't mind Tarzan.
Rebecca Alter
I've seen it since he's got the invisible touch.
Griffin
My personal bias aside, Tarzan is, like, very well reviewed, right? It's was definitely. It's a massive hit. The soundtrack is really, like, culturally important, but five or six months later, really culturally important. At the time, it was humongous. We've gotten criticized for being like, the Tarzan soundtrack obviously sucks.
David
I'm pumping. I don't think it sucks. I just don't think it was culture. It's not like a lion king level ear wormy.
Griffin
It was the second closest they had ever gotten to that.
David
I disagree.
Rebecca Alter
And you'll be in my heart was their last sort of like, credits adult contemporary hit song of the 90s. They closed out.
Griffin
I don't care that much for Tarzan, but I just think these are objective facts.
Rebecca Alter
I think the tree surfing and the vine swinging looks awesome.
Griffin
But I mean, like, this is my bigger point is, like, big hit, totally works. There is this sense of, like, is Disney back? Have they saved themselves? Five months later, Toy Story 2 comes out. And it feels like the takeaway from everyone is like, Tarzan's the end of an era and this is the future. We all had fun with Tarzan, but, like, we're moving past this.
David
The formula. It's no good anymore, right?
Griffin
In the 2000s, Lilo and Stitch is the only Disney feature theatrical animated movie that I would say unequivocally works. That is the only one.
David
No, I think Emperor's princess and the frog is that.
Griffin
I'm not. I'm saying financially, critically, and test of time. Okay. Emperor's. No, it was a disappointment at the time.
David
I guess.
Griffin
So it was at the box office.
David
Financially, it was a little.
Rebecca Alter
You've heard about what. What they're building. They're building an yzma coaster in villainland.
Griffin
What?
Rebecca Alter
They're doing a pull the lever.
Griffin
What?
Rebecca Alter
Because they've downgraded from. It was going to be a maleficent water ride thing. And I think
Griffin
here's a fun game.
David
David.
Griffin
What Washington villain Lane is from saying what Becca just said. From hearing her say that.
David
So it's because I'm, like, really bad at this. Is it just in Walt Disney World or is it in both?
Griffin
It would only be in world for
David
now because world's larger.
Griffin
There's more space for stuff that's Orlando.
David
And I know World Has.
Griffin
It's made up of multiple parts.
David
Right. So I know there's like, Epcot and Animal Kingdom and all this.
Griffin
Okay, you name two. Can you name the other two?
David
Is there one that's just kind of like Main Disney?
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. Could you think of what it's called?
Griffin
What would your guess be for Disney World?
David
No, I have no idea.
Griffin
Magic Kingdom.
David
Yes, I did know it. I did know it. And then is, like, Star Wars World its own thing, or is that within. Yeah, right. See, this is where they get me.
Rebecca Alter
Think of. Think of the movies.
David
The movies.
Griffin
Now, the problem is this land has changed names many times.
David
Okay, give me another hand.
Griffin
It was called Disney MGM Studios. It is now Disney Hollywood Studios.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, I would have accepted. I would have accepted mgm.
Griffin
Okay, so that is them competing with Universal Studios.
David
I get that. Is there another one?
Griffin
Epcot was Walt's dying. Animal Kingdom was them competing with. With Sea World and Bush Gardens.
David
Right.
Griffin
All that shit. Okay, those are the four in Orlando. There's the fucking water parks that. I think Becca were on the same page. Don't fucking count. That's not a problem.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, I still haven't ever been.
David
The villain world is in the Magic Kingdom, Correct.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, it will be.
Griffin
Now. Why are they. Why are they doing that?
David
Villains are popular. The Descendants. Oh, no, no, no.
Griffin
What are they competing movies again? What are they competing with?
David
With the Dark Universe, of course.
Griffin
Exactly. Truly is that Universal opened their new park in Orlando, where they reclaimed the name Dark Universe and applied it to monster theme park. And so now Disney's like, they have a cool scary thing. We need a cool scary thing. Villain land. Now, all the rumors had been it was going to be built around Maleficent as the centering force.
David
And they are sort of realizing, like, maybe Maleficent's like. Like, kind of old movies.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, no, they still are doing.
David
Isn't that why they were thinking about
Rebecca Alter
the Maleficent water ride?
David
Third Maleficent movie? Like, they're always claiming they're gonna do that.
Griffin
I mean, that's part of why Tron Ares happened. Because they also had spent hundreds of millions of dollars building a Tron roller coaster.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
And they wanted object permanence for that franchise. But interesting. So Yzma would be its own ride. It's not replacing Maleficent.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, it's not replacing Maleficent. But this was announced after the first announcement, and I think there were conversations about them actually scaling back the scary on Maleficent.
Griffin
This is the thing Disney's a little cowardly about getting too scary. Yzma's more funny than scary. Does she give them an easy out?
David
Right. But then it's just like, why are you? Why are you?
Rebecca Alter
And they love giving Patrick Warburton something to do.
Griffin
Sure. Looking up Villain Land Emperor's new groove is a masterpiece, but it was not a major hit.
David
Yeah. It was a minor hit at best. Right.
Griffin
And it was not really appreciated the time.
David
Yeah. And then I mean, obviously you're like,
Griffin
treasure Planet Atlantis are just like complete belly flops for them. Home on the Range is the last hand drawn Lilo. And Stitch is the one upswing there. And it's the movie that basically sneaks through the cracks. And then that first CGI runs a disaster.
David
And then you have Princess and the frog at the end where it's like, did pretty good. People liked it. But maybe even that underwhelmed and had
Griffin
the pressure on it of can this bring back the Disney princess movie in Hand Drawn? It does okay, but it does well. But the next year, Tangled comes out and once again, it's like, this is the future. Here's our model. This is what we're doing. We've redefined what our sort of Disney animated movie format is. But so that leaves the floor open for Pixar, DreamWorks and Blue sky to invent a new thing and to really be like, right. It's all open game. And what Andrew Stan talks about is feeling like Toy Story, Monsters, Inc. And Bug's Life all shared a similar vibe. The first three, obviously, a lot of that's that they're directed by same huggy guy, Lotso, Huggin, Lasseter. But also that it's the one core team working on every movie. Pixar basically, at this point only has enough employees to be focused on one movie at a time. And when Lasseter goes, doctor, you get a movie. Stanton, you get a movie. They start expanding the crew and they're splitting up. Who's getting Peterson? Who's Joe Ran? Who's getting Pete? Son. All these story guys. He said that to his doctor.
David
He was like, doctor, you got a movie. The doctor was like, I think you should give it to one of
Griffin
that. Be good.
David
Why wasn't Dr. Mario in super Mario Galaxy?
Griffin
I'm sure that I sent you a video. The theory that Dr. Mario is legally classified within Nintendo's copyrights as his own character and not Mario himself.
David
So it would have to be like, Mario has a cousin who's a doctor.
Griffin
This is the way.
Rebecca Alter
That's what the dad should be disappointed about.
David
That would be funny.
Rebecca Alter
Why Aren't you? Why can't you be like TikTok?
David
He's got so many pills.
Griffin
I send you all colors. I sent you this TikTok video that someone pointed out. In the first Super Mario movie, there was an empty seat at the family dinner table where Mario's dad's like, I don't respect you being a plumber. And there's like a little nephew there whose dad is missing. And the implication is maybe, does he hate his plumber son so much because
David
his other son, successful medical student.
Griffin
And if Mario's the last name, then his name might be doctor, like William Mario.
Rebecca Alter
This is the GP now, every animated movie and kids movie in a bad way is about, like, weird dad angst. But this is really groundbreaking and genius about weird dad angst.
Griffin
This movie is made by a dad working through his things versus, I think, a lot of animated movies and specifically illumination films. And who knows why this is the case.
David
Right. Feel very driven by told to be about this.
Griffin
Yes, well, and also people who cannot get over my dad doesn't respect what I do for a living, which is a little limited as a story, as an emotional arc. Unless you're digging really deep, Finding Nemo feels like it comes out of a very honest place. And I also think all these early Pixar movies are really defined by these guys as young fathers, you know, overgrown children, people who went into the field of animation suddenly crossing this line of like, I have a kid and now I'm kind of like, dealing with existential terror of like, wait a second, I have to be a grown up. How do I raise kids properly? What do I feel about how I was raised? What is the world I want them to live in? And also they're in this insane industry working on these movies that are so intense, that take so long. And they're all kind of fighting this, like, concern of, am I not spending enough time with my family?
David
Sure, right.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
And it makes sense. All these workaholics like to give joy
Rebecca Alter
to all the children of the world. They must miss their own child's dance recital, right? Yes.
David
Soccer practice. So, Andrew Stanton. I'm opening the dossier.
Griffin
Please do.
David
Born 1960, December 1965, in Massachusetts. Heard of it?
Griffin
Yeah, he does. He has a couple voices in this movie, but one of them is the lobsters. The Boston Lobsters.
David
Born in Wellesley. Moved to Rockport because. Whatever. Apparently his dad was sort of like, Wellesley's too. Sort of fancy. I don't like how, like, rich and rich and white it is here. His father Ron Stanton was an MIT graduate, founded a company called HiCore, which the new Yorker says did confidential radar work for the Department of Defense.
Griffin
Cool.
David
Andrew says that Ron was a classic authoritarian figure away from home a lot. Kind of tight lipped Gloria. The moment puts it this way. When Andrew had done something wrong, his father never needed to say anything. He'd just come and stand in Andrew's room silently and Andrew would tell him everything. Ooh, scary.
Griffin
I mean, to what we were just saying.
David
Whereas Gloria is a fun mom. She was an actress who gave up acting to have a family and she loved, you know, to entertain and be fun.
Griffin
All of this makes a ton of sense.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. He lives at the intersection of weapons tech and acting and fun.
David
Right.
Rebecca Alter
That sort of Pixar is right in the middle.
Griffin
To your point, Becca, What a relief that the movies aren't about this.
David
Yeah, about like my parents.
Griffin
Right, right. My dad doesn't respect me being a plumber.
David
So, Gloria, this is all from like a New Yorker profile of him. I think for Wally is when they did this.
Griffin
There's also an incredible New Yorker profile when John Carter comes out that we will talk about extensively.
David
For John Carter, because it's 2011.
Griffin
It's right at the fulcrum point of,
David
yeah, I think it's for John Carter.
Griffin
What's going to happen when this movie is released.
David
So his dad introduced him to science fiction, including the John Carter novels. He was a rocket scientist. He had pulp sci fi novels throughout the house. He dragged him to like every single sci fi movie. The culture stuff isn't just coming from the mom. Stanton said basically he was a precocious little boy with like undiagnosed ADD who just like wasn't quite like a child prodigy, but was clearly like very like very energetic and creative and like doing lots of stuff kind of like without much encouragement. He would make little skits with a Super 8 camera. He had a show he did with his friends called the Silly Show.
Griffin
Sounds pretty good when you watch all the vintage Pixar special features because they were really at the forefront of DVD bonus material and showing so much of. With every release. Like, here's more about how Pixar works and pulling back the curtain, not just
Rebecca Alter
on the technical part, which is so classic Walt. That's so Wonderful World of Disney.
Griffin
This is part of why Lasseter gets pushed into the Is he the new Uncle Walt position. But you watch those things and I'm just gonna say this, this Andrew Stanton is charismatic in a way that none of those other guys are that's interesting Andrew Stanton personality. He is just clearly like more of a people person versus, like Lassiter had always felt was kind of doing an impression of an Uncle Walt. And Pete Docter, by his own admission, is a pretty introverted guy.
David
Right. He seems like a pretty reserved kind of.
Griffin
He's a kind of classic animator. I. I want to just like, draw a thing and slide it over to you rather than talk and Interesting. And I think did a fair amount of, like, school acting and such when he was growing up, which I also comes across in his movies. And the silly show that he's a little bit more of a performer.
David
He went to University of Hartford for one year, but then transferred to CalArts, Griffin's alum.
Griffin
I dropped out, but yes.
David
So obviously he's part of the sort of legendary program there a 113 that you just, you know, invoked earlier.
Griffin
I mean, that classroom, that era is also like, I believe Stephen Hillenburg, who creates spongebob, love that guy. Brad Bird is there with them at that same time. Even though he comes to Pixar later. I mean, it's like 10 people in that year who went on to make an outsized cultural impact in animation.
David
He had been dating his now wife Julie, basically since he was 15 years old. She went to Georgetown. They got married right after they graduated. Basically settled in Los Angeles. Stanton worked on a sex education film starring Martin Short for Croyer Films Animated. The sperm.
Griffin
Is this the Journey of Me?
Rebecca Alter
Is this coming all the way back around to look who's Talking?
Griffin
I think so. I believe there's an attraction that at one point was part of Epcot called the Journey of Me, the Making of Me. There we go.
Rebecca Alter
I've seen this. So, yeah, it's a sex education short that played in the sort of wonderful human body part of Epcot.
David
Yep. It was Wonders of Life Pavilion.
Griffin
Fair enough.
David
Like many CalArts students, he wanted to work at Disney, was rejected three times. But then he meets John Lasseter and he had, I guess, some student films. I had these student films that were luckily entertaining enough that they showed some at festivals that also had, like, Luxo and Tin Toy, the early Lassiter shorts playing at them. And they kind of hit it off. My favorite's the bicycle one, Red's Dream.
Griffin
Red's Dream.
David
I always liked that one. Yeah, Stan, that's a freaky clown.
Griffin
Stan's stuff is really funky. Yeah, he also. I mean, I don't. Time might be off on this, but I know he worked on the Ralph Bakshi Mighty Mouse cartoon.
David
Yeah, I Mean, the. The sexa Ed thing was, I think, also Bakshi Studios, or maybe, or I can't remember Mighty Mouse. The new.
Rebecca Alter
Think of Bakshi making something for, like, Epcot goers, right?
Griffin
This is this weird era where Bakshi's like, trying to play a little more mainstream, but all the stuff he makes is just kind of subtly off and weird. Not that I think he's trying to be transgressive, but that he can't be normal.
Rebecca Alter
There's something inherently degenerate like coursing through
Griffin
that Mighty Mouse cartoon is like that and is fascinating. I highly recommend looking it up. Stanton, I think, had writing credits on the whole season and was pretty involved in that. Yeah.
David
Can you watch the shorts? Are those available?
Griffin
They must be somewhere. But Mighty Mouse is one of those things where I could not even tell you who has the rights. I'm like, are the Mighty Mouse rights owned by, like, Crest Toothpaste through some weird conglomeration?
David
So he is hired as Pixar's second ever animator. Obviously Pixar has been taken under the wing of Steve Jobs at that point. Andrew Happy go lucky, they say. Relied on humor to get by. He works on Toy Story, obviously. That's his first Oscar nomination. He's one of the many credited writers of Toy Story.
Griffin
So let me just unpack this a little bit because, a. I think he's, as I said, he's a very charismatic guy. He's very sociable. There's a story I'll tell later in this episode that's kind of a thing that makes him as a filmmaker, but he is an incredibly anxious, somewhat cynical person. He talks about, like, the constant battle between those two forces within himself and trying to probably the battle between his mom and his dad. You know, being someone who is avuncular and outgoing and sociable, but is constantly kind of like wrestling with these concerns inside of his head. Everyone at Pixar says that Woody is him.
David
That's interesting. He says Stanton. He says he's Sid. I can read you the quote.
Griffin
So he. Ben, he came up with the character.
David
He was the guy who wrote Sid, essentially.
Griffin
And that Sid is the reflection of what he was like as a teenager.
David
He liked to break his toys and then, like, remake them into new things.
Griffin
Right. As creative projects. Which is back to this point, I'm making of, like, Sid doesn't know he's a fucking villain in Toy Story. Andrew. Stan has always said this. He's like, Sid's a creative kid who just hasn't gotten to art school yet. He doesn't have an outlet. You know, the kind of, like, myth making here is within Pixar. They're sort of like, I guess we need to bring in an outside screenwriter, a Hollywood screenwriter. A number of people take passes at Toy Story in years of development, including similarly normal person Joss Whedon, one of the fake Cohens. I can't. It's not Etan Cohen, but maybe it's the other Joel Cohen spelled differently. There are like four or five credited screenwriters on Toy Story who are mostly Joel Cohen. Pretty much.
David
Yes.
Griffin
Yeah, mostly other kind of, like, Hollywood spec script, punch up rewrite guys. And they kept having people come in. They'd pay them to work on the script for, like, a couple months. They'd fix a couple things, but other things wouldn't be fixed. They had never really solved it. Disney wasn't giving them more budget. And the sort of, like, myth making part of this is that Andrew Stanton goes like, can I just, like, try and see if I can do a pass? And Stanton sort of holes away with the script and is the guy who, like, finally fixes everything and cracks everything and makes it cohesive. And Pixar realizes, like, oh, fuck, we have a screenwriter here. We have a guy in house who knows how to do this stuff. Especially after the infamous Black Friday screening where there was the very dark, very cynical version of the movie. After. Right.
Rebecca Alter
Where Woody was like, an asshole originally. Yes.
Griffin
Katzenberg had kept saying, like, I think there's a future with edgier, funnier, darker, more adult animated movies.
Rebecca Alter
And little did he know, he basically
Griffin
gets there with Shrek. Shrek is what he always wanted to make, but he kept pushing Pixar past their natural instincts. And so there's the screening they show of the story reels right before it goes to animation. That's like a disaster. Where Disney's gonna pull the plug on the movie because they're like, this lead character is like a complete asshole. This movie is just unpleasant to watch. And they beg for three days to rework the film. And I think Stanton does a lot of the story, heavy lifting. And they do the just like, fuck it. Let's get back to the exact movie we want to make. They greenlight that conditionally, and the film ends up happening as it is. But there is this kind of, like, Stanton's attitude mirrors Woody very much of constantly being frustrated but wanting to put forward the face of like, I got this under control. I'm looking out for all of you.
David
Right.
Griffin
Yeah, right, right.
David
Well, that makes sense. Yeah. So, Jim Morris says he's the best sort of genius for story structure.
Griffin
Yes.
David
That's one Pixar guy, Michael Arndt. That guy, you know, says that he's kind of good at being harsh in a story. Like he'll say the thing that's not working or whatever. Like he's more blunt.
Griffin
I saw him say in an interview that that was a big thing from Steve Jobs, who, you know, and this era is still very hands on with Pixar, that he was just like. People would get really turned off by how blunt Steve Jobs was, but he was just kind of ruthless in identifying what is the problem and what is the thing that needs to get done. Right. Yeah.
David
Some of the other credits before Nemo, obviously. He's also a co director and writer on Bug's Life. He's also the voice of Bug Zapper, Bug One and Singing Grasshopper two.
Griffin
Uh huh. In the Disney parks, there is an attraction that is now closed called Tough to Be a Bug that took place inside the tree in Animal Kingdom and had a giant animatronic hopper that they didn't need to remove. When Kevin Spacey got canceled because Kevin Spacey refused to do the recording, Andrew Stanton did it instead. Andrew Stanton does a weirdly good Kevin Spacey.
Rebecca Alter
And that was already one of the scariest things in Disney parks without Kevin even doing the voice.
Griffin
True, true.
Rebecca Alter
And it has been replaced by a horrible Zootopia attraction. Right.
David
Interesting.
Griffin
Tough to Be an Animal.
David
He's the voice. Oh, sorry.
Griffin
No, I was just gonna say co director in animation can mean a number of different things. Sometimes it means that two people are directing a film equally. In this era, Pixar, it's sort of the junior director thing. Lasseter taking him on as co director for A Bug's Life was sort of to train him to be able to make his own film. But he is by all accounts kind of the main screenwriter of A Bug's Life. And also when Toy Story 2 is saved from direct to video and reworked, he is the guy who does that. So across those first three movies, he is like the main writer guy.
David
Right, Right. So Toy Story 2, he's got the credit, of course. He's the voice of Hammond, Buzz Lightyear, Star Command. The adventure begins. Can't say I knew that.
Griffin
Yeah, that's just in the opening. This is the thing. He's a really good performer and he would often do sound alike voices for when the stars didn't want to come do something like a ride or a commercial or whatever it is. He is the voice Of Zurg canonically in Toy Story 2. That is him. He's the real Zurg voice, obviously with a bunch of modulators on him.
David
So finding Nemo's been swimming around in his head. Interesting use words there about fish. Since Toy Story, he says he'd always wanted to the ocean. He was fixated on a child on his dentist's water fish tank.
Griffin
When he wasn't a child, he would
David
look at the child. Yeah. Which was a weird way to see humans. What's the movie about? What's. What makes me care. He says he's in a walk with his five year old son Ben. And he has the terrible anxiety that he realized that his terrible anxiety was making him a bad father. Like that he kept being like, careful, you know, like that he was like
Griffin
pulling him from running into the street and all the sort of things. And he went like, you should do that. Yeah, yeah. But. But it was the intensity of his worry that he felt. Right. And he was like, here's my day. I have a day alone with my son and I'm gonna have no good lasting memories of this because I spent the entire day concerned about everything he was doing and not actually connecting to him. And that's the real germ of the idea. I wanna make a movie about that.
David
He also had seen an early cut of Lion King and apparently remembers just slamming on it. Says like sort of shows what I know. He hated the idea of the sort of circle of life of like, oh, we're all just part of this grand chain. And we're all, you know, it's all helpful. He likes the Bambi idea of like it's a real scary predatory world. And he's like, Nemo is set in the Bambi world.
Griffin
This is another thing that I really give him specifically credit for changing in the language of American movies. Because I really think it starts with Toy Story animated movies in which characters talk like grownups. Right. Where you're not dealing with kind of like mythical representational voices of reason, cosmic evils. And so much of the comedy in this movie is just that it's funny that two fishes are talking in this casual a way and that they are so recognizable as personality types. But I think, right. He's. He's speaking to a very specific human anxiety rather than kind of like a larger just so stories type of lesson.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. Without tipping too far into the shark tale. Like a. I'm swimming here. Which I'm just gonna guess they say.
Griffin
Right.
David
If they don't say that. Missed opportunity. Arkerman Fucked up.
Rebecca Alter
They do sound like grown ups, but yet not in that DreamWorks way, which is a different thing.
Griffin
Yes. I think it's that the DreamWorks movies start really iterating on other things in pop culture in a kind of postmodern, metatextual, self referential kind of way. And what Stan sort of identifies is like an audience will laugh if a character suddenly reminds you of a type of person, you know, not an archetype in sitcoms, you know, but like a type of person with a specificity. Yeah.
David
So finding Nemo, he settles on clownfish because he sees like a coffee table book and finds them arresting. I mean, it's obvious, like, it's a great idea.
Griffin
He saw a picture of two clownfish coming out of an anemone and it looked like they were sort of hiding and he was like. And it looks like a parent and a child.
David
He presents an hour long pitch to Lasseter. Lasseter is a longtime scuba diver. So he's hugging the fish down there too, unfortunately. And Lassiter says, you had me at fish.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
And then he's like, how about a hug?
Griffin
The other part of that story is,
David
bring it in, buddy. Anyone else want to join?
Griffin
Stanton the Worrywart planned an hour long pitch that involved him doing all the voices, sound effects, and he had audio cues and like, fish.
David
That's a great idea.
Griffin
We can sell fish. Truly colorful. Right.
Rebecca Alter
We also can't stress enough how big spongebob was at the time. Everyone loved underwater. We were underwater. Crazy.
Griffin
Let's call out, though. This is. It's a little bit of parallel thinking. Like, SpongeBob premieres in 99. There's four years in between.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
But the lead time on animation is.
David
This is around 2,000, I think, when this movie goes into production. Yeah, yeah, it's.
Griffin
Spongebob was immediately a hit, like, right out of the box. I think that was a little bit of them getting lucky with timing. Another thing I think I saw Jim Morris say this, that was unique about this movie is so often they would come up with a big idea at Pixar and then they would all sort of brainstorm together and then they'd hire an outside screenwriter or three or four people would noodle on it and they'd keep iterating and adding things to it until they finally got to something vaguely resembling a script. Stan literally just sat down and wrote a script for this one.
David
Right.
Griffin
It is like right after A Bug's Life.
David
It's different from the. Yeah, I know. There's other people now. Like, other people Credited and all that. But he had a screenplay, but.
Griffin
But in a kind of complete vision way. It gets changed in. In regards. But it was a. Like, here's the arc of my story. Here's what it's about. Here are the major beats, however, beginning to end.
David
The problem was the Tank story. Like, he had the Search for Nemo stuff, I think much more set, but the Tank story kept derailing the narrative. Is how the other Pixar guys put it in this sort of initial pitch.
Griffin
Right. How does that not feel like you're cutting away to an inactive.
David
Exactly right. The original script, also the loss of Marlin's wife was communicated with re flashbacks in her first through the film and only in the third. We talked about this on this podcast before. Only in the third act do you see that. It was like this barracuda attack.
Griffin
Allow me to restate this.
David
Please do it now. Because it's like basically the audiences were like, what the fuck? Right? Think it is so stressful.
Griffin
It is the most important thing in Andrew Stanton's career. And it swings back in a different way in John Carter, in a way we need to talk about. So this is the thing that needs to be established. He, as a guy who now, in the time between Toy Story and Finding Nemo, has gotten really serious about screenwriting and read the books and studied other movies and really tried to understand screenwriting as an art form, was obsessed with movies that are able to do this as a storytelling device. Isn't that fun when a movie can kind of slowly tease out information and backfill it in multiple flashbacks? And so he just. That was the shape he conceived in his head of. The movie starts with Nemo waking Marlin up his first day of school and yada, yada, yada. And across the film, you start to get these flashbacks until you finally at the end realize, oh, his wife was killed by a barracuda. All the other eggs were destroyed. Nemo's the only son he has left. And they would play the story reels for audiences, which are basically. It's usually. Sometimes it's Pixar animators, sometimes it's the final cast actors and the voices. Lightly animated storyboards, usually with temp music. Just so before they do the expensive part of actually starting animation, they can feel the flow of the movie and they play it. And people are just like, we hate Marlon. He sucks. Yeah, this guy drives me crazy. And by the time they explain why he has this level of neuroses, it's too late. The audience isn't on Board.
Rebecca Alter
Right.
Griffin
And he keeps trying to crack it and he can't. And then he's just finally like, what if I just put all this stuff at the top?
David
Yeah. And it makes sense.
Griffin
I just do it.
David
It's also really helpful for me because I can just not watch that with my daughter. Just skip right past him.
Griffin
But as you said, he was like, everyone was concerned. That's too scary. You can't front load it in a movie. And he said, like, that's Bambi. Bambi exists and Bambi survives as a beloved film. I think you need to look the scary thing in the eye. And the second he did that, the movie worked. The other thing that happens is Dory.
David
I don't know if you know if that's what you were gonna say, but to him, it's Dory. What are you gonna say?
Griffin
There was a different actor cast.
David
Well, we'll get to that. Let's get to that. Okay. The other thing for him is Dory,
Griffin
but I just wanna say he has a TED Talk around the time of John Carter where he shares the storytelling lesson he learned there of not trying to out clever yourself as a storyteller. That it's important for audiences to have the emotional information they need to understand what's going on with the characters. And very often, if you try to be smart or stylish in your sort of devices, you actually. It's cutting edge.
Rebecca Alter
You're alienating the audience.
Griffin
Correct.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. You could just as easily. Because with this, from the very beginning, you're like, marlon has suffered.
David
Yes.
Rebecca Alter
You know, you're rooting for.
David
It's an incredibly devastating thing. And you understand it works perfectly.
Griffin
It is so Elizabeth Perkins crushing it. That's the other thing. Like, Elizabeth Perkins is great. Within 30 seconds, you understand the dynamic of their marriage. A scary thing happens. You see his anxiety, like, it's just.
Rebecca Alter
And it also introduces you to like in Finding Nemo and in the ocean, it's like danger at every turn. These fishes lives are very precarious. Like, we're going to encounter a lot of scary creatures.
Griffin
There are actual stakes from the beginning. It's not just that this kid is lost. It's like the mother dies, as do hundreds of eggs.
Rebecca Alter
At least hundreds of fish every day die in the ocean.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Dory, to him, kind of takes the film to another level. She bridges the two main characters. He was inspired by the structure of the novel Cold Mountain for this.
Griffin
So Dory's the Vernee Zellweger character.
David
That's what I assume he Means by that, David Reynolds, who's a Conan writer and had worked on other Pixar movies, and Bob Peterson, who.
Griffin
Mr. Ray.
David
Right. Who hadn't written a movie for Pixar yet.
Griffin
But it's one of their main storylines. Exactly.
David
Those are the other credited screenwriters. William H. Macy first cast as Marlon. They wanted someone with a lighter touch, is the cited reason.
Griffin
As Stan has always put it.
David
This is never revealed until there's a Pixar book that reveals it. Right.
Griffin
So Stan always talked about the fact that they had originally cast dramatic actor, and it felt like it made the movie too heavy. He cast a guy who was funny but comes from a dramatic background and that he felt like he was playing the anxiety too real and too weighty. And it fought the comedy of the movie. And he always kind of, in a gentlemanly way, never named who the actor was, but then said, when we brought in Albert Brooks, he didn't need to play anxiety. That's his natural state. And he could riff all these jokes on top of it. And it worked. The book, the Pixar Touch, is the one that finally puts William H. Macy as the name. It's never really been verified, but it's basically been commonly accepted. That's who it was. It makes a lot of sense to be like Andrew Stanton thinks, well, wouldn't like William H. Macy's character from Fargo in an animated movie be the correct version of this? But that's a very dark movie where you kind of want to watch that
David
guy's self offer totally. Albert Brooks had was making the In
Griffin
Laws comes out the same bunch of
David
sessions around the In Laws. Essentially. He said. He said he did 11 sessions of four hours each. That's all he had to do. Yeah, it doesn't sound like that much to me.
Griffin
The other thing he said is that he basically would never read what was written on the page, but then would improvise for like 20 minutes.
David
He's really good.
Griffin
He's like, you can't get him to say the same thing twice. He doesn't want to do line readings. But he, because he's a writer and a filmmaker in his own right, would look and be like, what's the thing that needs to be conveyed in terms of story information in this line of dialogue? And then now I will give you 20 iterations of the funniest ways that could happen. He's a really funny guy and
David
good governor.
Griffin
Yes.
David
And a good. What's he becoming, Secretary of Labor or
Griffin
commerce or something in the country in which he was born. And raised.
David
We assume. We assume.
Griffin
Yeah. What if he's a dirty Russky? What if that was cut out of he's becoming president?
David
He could be, like, Canadian or something. Canadians in the room with us right now.
Griffin
Canadians in the room with us right now. Hi, Becca.
Rebecca Alter
Hi.
David
Okay, Brooks comes up with the clown thing. He comes up with the joke like that. He can't do jokes. That was Brooks's idea.
Griffin
Right.
David
Stanton's watching Ellen, the sitcom Ellen. Much better than the talk Show Ellen.
Griffin
Late 90s. Yeah.
David
And she kind of, you know, the Ellen delivery thing of like, she changes her mind five times into a sentence.
Griffin
She had one line where she changed the topic seven times and turned to his wife and said, I think that's Dory. Now. Dory was written to be male.
David
Right.
Griffin
And speaking of this, kind of like Andrew Stanton coming in and saying, how do we break the mold of what a Pixar movie is a little bit. Right. That he felt like Toy Story, the two toy stories in Monsters, Inc. Were all buddy pictures, all had Randy Newman scores, all had a kind of similar design, language, sense of humor. And that he really felt like we need to start stretching out what these movies can be so it doesn't start to become formulae. And I think there's a way in which you can see Finding Nemo as a buddy picture because it is Dory and Nemo on this journey together. But the nature of Dory as a character prevents it from feeling like that.
Rebecca Alter
I think they're going on a sort of buddy journey. And I think it's like, one of my favorite things about the movie, especially in the context of what Pixar was before, is I love when the goofy one, funny one, stupid one, is a girl. I think that was really missing in a lot of kids entertainment as the time.
David
At the time, it was seen as retrograde at some point or. And they stopped doing it.
Griffin
It was just that girls need to be perfect love interests.
Rebecca Alter
Yes. For the girl to be the hilarious comic relief, silly, stupid one is so awesome. And I still love that when that happens in an ensemble sitcom or something today. Cause it still is semi rare. And so Dory, I think, is, like, huge.
Griffin
I give him super credit for just being like, oh, Ellen would work for this. Even if it is not how I conceived this. Obviously, you know, Pixar's famous for when they picked a subject being like, let's do a ton of research and let's find story discoveries from learning about the real thing. And certainly they did a lot of that with a bug's life. He replicated that model here. He found the thing about certain fish have like five second memories.
Rebecca Alter
I feel like that was already a
David
joke about goldfish, the old goldfish memory thing.
Griffin
And he was like, that's kind of an interesting character challenge. And it could so easily be. That's a character you meet for five minutes in one of many segments of that movie.
David
That's like one bit in the movie.
Griffin
Right, Right. He gives himself like a real fucking tough challenge to how do you make that the other character in the dynamic and not have it be annoying?
David
You know who's pretty funny?
Griffin
Ellen DeGeneres.
David
Dory.
Griffin
Dory rules.
Rebecca Alter
Dory's amazing.
David
It's a great bit. The story's so. And Ellen is so funny in this movie. It's great.
Griffin
So funny. But like, how does it not to write that character and perform that character where it's not frustrating that she's the obstacle in the movie because the actual goal of the film is get to Nemo. But then the person who's joining him
David
in that goal, she's kind of not helping.
Griffin
Has her own dilemma.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
It makes it all the more satisfying when she can push through things. Sure. It makes every, like, win she has, like, so much more heartening.
David
But I mean, without her, Marlon is a pain.
Griffin
Totally.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, just not to skip ahead, but one of the big moments that breaks my heart. Yeah. Like as a kid when he abandons her.
Griffin
But to your point, Becca, to have this character be female, to have it be an entirely aromantic relationship between male and female adult characters, they do not. I'm going to say this on the record. Marlon and Dory do not.
David
I regret even saying, not only that,
Rebecca Alter
but you don't even want to ship them.
Griffin
You don't want to ship them.
David
Not really. This could be a nightmare couple. Yes.
Griffin
You don't want to ship them. It's closer to being a surrogate parenting relationship, sort of. Which is why it helps Marlin have a narrative within the film. An emotional arc of he's in trying to keep Dory safe, realizing the things he's up with Emo.
David
He's realizing his parenting mistakes. But he is also. Dory is also helping him overcome, like, you know, like, his anxiety, his sort of his executive function problem of kind of like never making choice. Just keep swimming, man. Like, sometimes you need someone who's just like, kind of positive energy. We got to keep going, you know, like, he'd never make it to Nemo without.
Griffin
Even with her condition, there's the fact that she Is an adult means that he talks to her a different way than he talks to Nemo.
Rebecca Alter
Right.
David
He can't be quite as patronizing.
Griffin
And when she pushes back on him, he. He listens a little bit more.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. He learns to trust.
Griffin
Yes. Dory rules.
David
Dory's good. Ellen's great.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
I love to order her lunch. Just. That's what I love to do.
Griffin
I mean, this. This is.
David
And get it right. Every time.
Griffin
This is the movie that saves her career.
David
It transforms her career.
Griffin
The talk show premieres this fall after this movie is released. So obviously it was already in the works.
David
Yeah. But she, she. You know, she has the. The failed second sitcom.
Griffin
Yes.
David
2001 to 2002, which was called the Ellen Show.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Which is like. That's the one where it's like she is gay. Like, it's like is like baked into the show versus the first sitcom. Like, that is a revelation that comes late in the show.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
And that had like Jim Gaffigan in it and stuff and Martin Mull and it was like a big CBS show and it flopped.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
David
And it was kind of the thing like. Right. Was Ellen kind of just. Just, you know, she had Ellen. She had the show. Like, she was. She was important culturally, but like.
Griffin
But they were also like, they were putting her in movies. She's in wrongs. Obviously a disaster. But she's in Ed tv.
David
Funny. In Ed tv, she. She has a line to think about all the time.
Griffin
Which one?
David
Can I say it?
Griffin
Yeah.
David
It's so funny. It's just a good line. It's like Rob Reiner comes in and he's like the mean bot. The mean network guy.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
And there's something to do about like, you know, he's like, if you do. If this happens, I'll get you more money. And she's like, can we get coffee filters? We've been using a Yamaha. And it feels like something Ellen might have made up because that definitely sounds
Griffin
like an Ellen joke.
David
But they just have this soggy young.
Griffin
Yes.
David
Anyway, that's awesome.
Griffin
Sorry. She was so big in the 90s. And the arc of what happens to her is really fascinating to study now because there was just like years of speculation of she's gay. Right.
David
Right. What's not this saying it right. There's like short haired lady with pants.
Griffin
There's the Larry Sanders episode that happens like two years before she comes out where the whole premise is Rip Tor's character is pressuring Larry to be like, if we could get Ellen coming out, that would be A big boon for the show.
David
So Ellen's kind of winking at it within that show and within the episode.
Griffin
I feel like they never say it. They never put a name to it. And then the twist in that episode is that her and Larry sleep together. And he's like, I think maybe she's not, but. But much like the Seinfeld contest episode, they're never saying the word. So it was enough in the ether that she's even making jokes about the fact that she's not acknowledging it. And then they do an episode where she comes out, the character is going to be gay, and Ellen's gonna come out. It's the front page of Time magazine. Puppy episode. Yep. I'm gay with her sitting crisscross applesauce.
David
No, she was doing a little fun. Fun, Neil.
Griffin
Oh, you're right.
Rebecca Alter
She's doing a gayer stance than Christmas episodes.
David
Ellen, she's the best.
Griffin
But that episode. That episode is huge in the ratings. Yep, I'm gay Headlines. Right. It's one of these things where, like, she gets this huge bump of visibility and then everyone sort of applauds her. And then immediately is like, but obviously we can't, like, sell car commercials on a gay show. All the sponsors go away, the listeners.
David
Good point.
Griffin
Yeah. The viewership drops.
David
I'm just gonna get canceled.
Griffin
The show's basically canceled within a year of her coming out. And the attitude is like, thank you for your bravery, but obviously you're not part of the popular culture anymore. And then she talks about, for years fighting to be, like, hosting the Jemmys or hosting SNL when she didn't have anything to promote, trying to just get herself back out there as a comedian after all the offers had dried up.
David
And she ran a bookshop.
Griffin
Yes.
David
Was it a bookshop?
Griffin
What?
David
Ellen.
Rebecca Alter
True.
David
Ellen Morgan, the character in Ellen. Oh, wasn't it a bookshop? Yeah.
Griffin
Yes.
David
It was called buy the book. Funny.
Griffin
But this is the movie that launches the second half of her career that reintroduces her in undeniable kind of way.
David
Does she make a lot of movies after this? No, because she's doing the show. Yeah. So the only movie she made after this in which she's not playing herself is Finding Dory. Is this film called Finding Dory in which she played Dory? She did play Dory and that's it. And she's never made one since.
Griffin
She did more specials.
David
She did some stand up.
Griffin
Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
Like any movies?
David
No movies.
Griffin
Yeah. Yeah. It's just Dory from then on, I think about that.
David
Tweet all the time, Becca, you know what I'm talking about. Of, like, the loss of her. Of her talk show.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David
Where she's like. She would have extracted the balance of
Rebecca Alter
the universe is off.
David
Right. She would have extracted everything usable out of Hawk 2 and, like, discarded her like a carcass. Like, Hawk Tua got to, like, have a whole year because Ellen wasn't there to just kind of be like, here is Hawk Tua. We've presented her to you. We've asked all the questions and now
Rebecca Alter
she can go, yeah, the, like, Ellen extraction machine.
David
Right, right. Like, that's how it used to be. It was like, there's a funny video of you ordering a donut in a weird way. Come talk to Ellen for an hour and then never be seen again.
Griffin
But it also just fascinating that Ellen went from being like, Hollywood, like, like, threw me out. They, like, said, thank you for your bravery and then, like, closed the door on me. And then she's the voice of one of the most famous and beloved animated characters of all time. Two of the highest grossing animated films in history. Right. And becomes, like, the voice of reason for every mom in America. Like, has a 20 year run of just being like. She kind of controls this, like, sliver of the national conversation of just like, I'm deciding which viral people get elevated. I'm deciding, like, what the new style and throw pillows are at target.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. It is interesting that the Ellen show starts and then this rise of viral videos and social media starts and she immediately becomes the curator of that for moms.
David
Yes.
Griffin
And dancing. She invented dance.
Rebecca Alter
Ellen Bitt.
David
Before them, people just stood in the
Rebecca Alter
famous J. Nirvana sequence.
Griffin
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I. I've heard you're training clowns, Noelle, and that's not true. And then the clown pops up out of the Jack in the puck.
Rebecca Alter
So there's a movie.
Griffin
There's a movie.
David
I just.
Griffin
You're right. She's in.
David
Is she coming back or is? Because I know she. She had, like, a recent ish special in the last five years.
Rebecca Alter
She did a documentary about gorillas.
David
David.
Griffin
Much like Alex Baldwin. She said goodbye to public life on her last tour. She said, this is the last time you'll ever see me.
David
It wasn't her. I didn't watch the special, but wasn't the special kind of like, yeah, I'm rich. I live in a spaceship.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, that's the one that had the clapter that went for like two full minutes.
Griffin
Yes.
David
Oh, yeah.
Rebecca Alter
Like, it looked like it Was edited to be. She said something very self congratulatory and then they kept it all in the edit of the special and everyone claps for like an hour.
Griffin
It's also her addressing the me and Ellen stuff. It was like around that time she starts doing all this press and it becomes very clear that she never ever got over the anger of how everyone in the industry respond to her coming out. That even when Finding Nemo and the show bring her back to prominence, she kind of held onto this spite forever. Of like everyone commended me for doing a thing that was culturally important. And also every job dried up. Yeah. It's just fascinating. Like this movie, so much hinging on that choice to cast her.
David
It was the right choice. Yeah. But as we sort of said, like every casting decision in this movie is. Is pretty spot on. Even Alex Young. Alexander Gould, He's Weeds, the voice of Nemo.
Griffin
He's the kid from Weeds.
David
That's right. He was the kid on Weeds. I remember that.
Griffin
He had a little bowl cut.
David
His mom was dealing weed.
Rebecca Alter
It looked like a little. Like a little Nemo. Nemo's just a round little guy with a pair of eyes.
David
Weeds. Talk about a show that its entire premise is defunct now.
Griffin
Yes.
David
She's like, I'm selling weed. I'm going to get in trouble with the law.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
You know, like, oh, now the cops are after me. Me, cuz I sell joints. Now you can just go to the store. Go to the store.
Griffin
Yeah. David.
David
Yes.
Griffin
I know what your problem is. Uhoh. You're getting too much sleep.
David
All right, I have trouble sleep. What can I do?
Griffin
Well, you. This is a life long issue. But now you also got a house full of handfuls. It makes the sleep you can get all the more precious, does it not?
David
Of course, of course. And you know what's the most important thing about sleep, Griffin?
Griffin
Most important thing about sleep? Sawing logs, counting sheep. Hong shoe, Hong Shu. I would say closing your eyes, wearing a sleeping cap.
David
All very important. But no, it's the mattress.
Griffin
Oh.
David
At top which you sleep. And I have a Leesa mattress. Thanks to their wonderful partnership with us, I believe I am sleeping on a king size Leesa mattress. I want to make sure I say exactly the brand I have. I believe it's the legend. Oh, I think that's what it's called. Yes. The hybrid chill. Maybe it's just the hybrid. I'm not sure if I got the chill.
Griffin
I got the chill. Cause I'm a hot sleeper. I want to kill.
David
So the whole thing with Lisa is they've got all kinds of, you know, shapes and sizes for you. Right? You know, you want a little more firm, you want a little more soft. It's the best hack to improve your sleep. It's to address what you're sleeping on. I, for a long time, was on a less good mattress that wasn't as big. I switched to a king. I switched to a very nice Leesa mattress.
Griffin
You're a tall man. You have a tall wife.
David
It is one of the the best single life decisions I ever made in terms of just improving my quality of life.
Griffin
It genuinely seems so relaxed, even just recounting this.
David
Be in my bed now. And like, of course, I always like bed. Bed's fun.
Griffin
Bed is fun.
David
Yeah. Great to be in bed. But now I'm like, how long till I can get my bed? In fact, we have to record an episode after this and I'm like, so many hours from bed.
Griffin
Bed is great. And, you know, we, we've covered some of the worst beds in movies on this podcast. Will Dormer falling asleep on a dock or a pile of garbage. Rooster Cogburn bed of ropes. You don't want to be like those guys. Those guys didn't have happy ends. You want to be like a king, a legendary king sleeping on a Lisa.
David
So, you know, just for some things you want to know.
Griffin
Please, I want to know.
David
These are beautifully crafted mattresses. They're tailored to how you sleep. They're designed with specific sleep positions and field preferences in mind. You know, you'll sort of do a sleep quiz at the site to find your perfect match in less than two minutes. They've got free shipping, easy returns on 120 night sleep trial. Been awarded the best hybrid of memory foam mattresses by Wirecutter at the New York Times. Featured by West Elm as their go to mattress partner. And they work with local nonprofits across the US to donate thousands of mattresses each year year to families in need. With over 43,000 mattresses donated to date.
Griffin
Hell yes.
David
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Griffin
This episode is brought to you by Starbucks. That is fire.
David
Whoa.
Rebecca Alter
That's good.
David
This might be the drink of the summer.
Rebecca Alter
Okay, I like this one too. I'm rocking with it.
David
Okay, try it for yourself.
Griffin
Starbucks refreshers concentrates are coming home. Find them in the coffee aisle and make it yours.
David
Mighty Nemo begins with Nemo's mom getting chomped to bits by a barracuda. What do you think? A good.
Griffin
I mean I do think it's an incredible opening. It also felt jarring as a Pixar obsessive seeing this opening weekend they played Knick Knack which was an older short being reissued.
David
Is that the one in the snow globe with the jackhammer?
Rebecca Alter
Yes, and the sexy lady in the other snow globe.
Griffin
But because of woke the sexy lady in the snow globe used to have big naturals and I think when they re released it for Nemo they made her a little more flat chested. And I have been writing angry letters to Disney every day of my life since then. I want my snow globes horny.
David
Those early Pixar movies, right, that's what they would do. They would show the old shorts.
Griffin
They would alternate because there was not as Jerry's game and for the birds, right.
David
They didn't have the the young kids making their own shorts in within Pixar
Griffin
as consistent a pipeline. So sometimes they'd be like we don't have a short ready. Let's throw up one of the old
David
guys knickknack out of the box.
Griffin
Knickknack rules.
David
They never did Red Stream though. Cowards.
Griffin
They didn't.
David
That's the one they never put on there.
Rebecca Alter
No kid wants to see that on a big screen.
David
The clowns really?
Rebecca Alter
Oh yeah. It's a bit creepy and it's in like a black void.
David
Yeah, that's why I liked it.
Griffin
It's about a unicycle, Ben. It's a movie about a unicycle who's sad that he can't get a clown to sit on his face.
Rebecca Alter
That sounds like a parody of a Pixar juggle. Right?
David
He wants to learn how to juggle with his two little pedals. Yeah, but there is a clown in it and it is weird.
Griffin
Where does he sit?
David
Well, there's only one place to sit on a unicycle.
Griffin
Find the lie. But knickknack plays. Then we got our fucking jumpin look. So junior guy. And then the movie like just kind of cold open straight like mid dialogue. I remember that feeling. Jarring. It does feel like a tonal shift against the other Pixar movies. That Ease you in to a reality.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
I mean, the opening line of this movie is, wow, right? You're seeing.
Rebecca Alter
And you're already saying that because you're looking at this digitally animated ocean that's also trending quite.
David
Gorgeous. Gorgeous. I saw this film by myself. I remember I was here on vacation. I had to fill some time, and I went to like, a midday screening at Regal Union Square. And it was all kids.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Because it was the summertime. Yeah. And I felt a little weird. 17 years old, but you'd go see
Griffin
a matinee and the theater would be filled with girls.
David
Yes.
Griffin
I saw this movie multiple times in theaters and. And that was part of its success, was Pixar had become enough of a name brand that even people who didn't grow up with Pixar, like people who were in college when Toy Story came out, were like, guess I gotta go see the new Pixar movie.
Rebecca Alter
Right.
Griffin
The track record was just so fucking strong at this point. The opening was humongous. And then it just played throughout the entire summer. It did.
David
It wouldn't go away.
Griffin
This was the summer that everyone assumed Matrix Reloaded as the Juggernauts.
David
Right. And that was May. And this came out like a week later.
Griffin
A week later or whatever.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
And then by like two months in, it was like, this has zoomed past Matrix and it keeps playing throughout the entire year, which obviously can't happen.
David
Zero architects. So I don't know why that happened.
Griffin
Just kids. Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
They need a Maravinian fish.
David
Oh, that. That would be fun. A French fish.
Griffin
Yes.
David
I guess.
Griffin
The.
David
The chef.
Rebecca Alter
Shrimp.
David
Yeah, the shrimp chef. He goes.
Griffin
Jacques.
David
You know, he's done or whatever. Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
Who.
David
Who voices him?
Griffin
That's Joe Raft.
David
Love it.
Griffin
Who's also wheezy.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
Oh, there's many, many voices.
David
Is Wheezy dead?
Griffin
Well, Joe Ranft is dead, sadly. Do you know what happened? Joe Ranft was working on the movie Cars.
David
No, what happened?
Griffin
He was working on the movie Cars, which I think he was maybe co director on.
David
Yeah. I think that was where he was rising up to right here.
Griffin
What's the worst way he could have died?
Rebecca Alter
Run over my car accident.
David
That's really sad.
Rebecca Alter
So who else died is the 399. Eggs in coral.
Griffin
And then never forget about the 399.
David
I do feel like they have. That's why they do it as like, fish do have hundreds of children. So they have to come up with this kind of plotty way that he's like a. It's like a one Father, one son.
Rebecca Alter
It's like how Judy Hopps has like a hundred siblings.
David
But it's. Do not get me started on that.
Griffin
It's what's really smart about the setup, I think too, where you're like, what is the only circumstance in which a parent would be this obsessive over a one child? And it's where they make these choices of, like, when is the characterization being dictated more by the behavior of fish versus the behavior of humans? And with Marlin, they find this exact midpoint where you're like, well, if fishes have hundreds of children, they couldn't be this helicoptery. But if he has a traumatic event that gives him only one child, then is he just like a neurotic parent in the early 2000s? I also think, to my point of just like this thing that Stanton was able to identify of how to make animated characters be grown up. Like, this is a movie in which Nemo's the title character, but Nemo is the third lead. The two leads are grown ups. True and same with Monsters Inc. And Toy Story and A Bug's Life that all have kids in them, but the kids are supporting and the grownups talk like modern grownups. And when we enter into this scene, what's immediately kind of comfortable about it is that it has the vibe of a couple who have been looking at houses all day. Day.
David
Yeah, right, right.
Griffin
That you. You feel the. Where their in jokes are, how they needle each other couple. The satisfaction of, you know what? You're right. This place is good. And then how immediately that paradise is destroyed by this barracuda.
David
That's the villain of the movie. Griffin. Yeah, Barracuda.
Griffin
Barracuda. Yeah, Barracuda.
David
Anyway, years later, cut to Nemo lives he has sucked up Finn.
Griffin
I know we're just hyper fixating on the first scene of this movie alone, but in my opinion, for how large the trauma of the Barracuda. And as you said, like many parents who are just like, I just don't show this scene to my kid. It is funny that when you look at it, the Barracuda is still cartoonish looking like. Has like a big goofy googly eye.
Rebecca Alter
It's like a scary cartoon.
Griffin
It's also like a perfect kind of trauma by implication, where you see the moment where she clocks the Barracuda. I know.
David
And then she looks down.
Griffin
He notices it because she's no longer riffing with him.
Rebecca Alter
Him.
Griffin
He's inside the anemone.
David
You are fixating on this.
Griffin
He peeks out. Yes, there's perfect fucking acting of her eyeline changing to the barracuda and trying to game out. If she can make the move to protect the eggs.
David
How's she going to protect him? She's just one fish.
Griffin
And then Marlon gets hit by the tail. Blackout. You don't see her die. You just have him wake up to her not being there. And only the one egg with the
David
crack egg in the fins. The crack is washed. Why he has a. That's the. The bum reasoning.
Griffin
He's lucky.
David
I don't think those eggs can really crack. Cuz they're like jelly. But like, who cares?
Griffin
Lucky Finn.
David
Yes. So they live in an anemy.
Griffin
Yes.
David
Marlin and Nemo. And Nemo wants to start school. I guess it's sort of a September cuz the year is starting.
Griffin
He's been eager to start. Marlin keeps holding him back. He has to remember to brush his anemone.
David
Brown fish live six to 10 years in the wild. 10 to 20 in an aquarium.
Griffin
Okay.
Rebecca Alter
Should have kept him at the dentist.
Griffin
Well, Dory will get to the aquarium.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
It's a thing that Stanton said also when he saw that picture of them poking out of the anemone and said like, oh, what about clownfish? Then he looked into it and he was like. Clownfish live in anemones and rarely leave that he. There was like a gift in researching the species of. Oh, they live in this weird security net that also can sting them. Them and try not to leave the bubble. I think it is a really smart characterization choice. They dialed in the exact right amount of anxiety that Marlin can have. Because there's an insufferable version of this movie where Marlin is like, Beau is afraid.
David
Where he is at danger out of every corner. Right.
Griffin
That he literally doesn't want to leave the anemone. There's something in the fact. And even just the way he's doing bits with Nemo at the beginning where. Where it's like he wants to think of himself as a funny guy. He wants to think of himself as not being too uptight.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. The neighborhood dads like know him already.
Griffin
Right.
Rebecca Alter
Once he gets to the drop off.
David
This is true.
Griffin
Everyone tries to relate to him like a normal person. And then he just always puts a little too much in it. He always gets a little too wound up.
David
Can't tell the joke. And no one's mean. But I like when he's fucking up the joke. They're just like. You know, like they're all the dads are just like, can we stop?
Griffin
Yes. The one guy Just goes for clownfish. He's not very funny. And then the other guy goes, pity.
David
It's a jellyfish. A seahorse. And I'm trying to think the dad.
Griffin
Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
It's the type of fish of the one who says I'm obnoxious.
Griffin
Yes. Which is Dewey from Malcolm. And the metal.
Rebecca Alter
Which might be a yellow tang.
Griffin
Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
Or an angelfish.
Griffin
I think that's.
David
No, no, no. So Dory is a blue tang.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. But here I am speaking about a yellow tang.
David
Oh, yeah. No, you're right.
Griffin
There's that bird fish. You're saying something different, David. And this is why you listen to.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, no, Bubbles. Bubbles is a yellow tank.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Bubbles is a yellow tang.
Rebecca Alter
So these might be angelfish.
David
Oh, not to be confused, though, with Pooty Tang. No, Pootang is in the film, but you have to look for them.
Griffin
Let's also say we've invoked Bubbles, but we're not yet getting to the root of the matter. We will do that later. Okay.
David
Root of the matter. Willem Dafoe is an angelfish.
Griffin
Okay.
David
Bubbles is a yellow tang.
Rebecca Alter
So what's the kit?
David
A butterfly fish.
Griffin
Cool.
David
The others are a flapjack octopus, which is those octopuses with, like, the cute little legs that kind of go like.
Rebecca Alter
She is adorable.
David
And the. A seahorse. So it's not a jellyfish. It's an octopus.
Griffin
Her one tendril shorter than the others, but you never notice when she curls them like this.
David
Jellyfish in this movie are like angler fish in that they seem to lack a consciousness, AKA eyes.
Rebecca Alter
Well, jellyfish in real life.
Griffin
Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
Definitely don't have a brain.
David
They don't have a brain. I mean, my daughter has endless questions for me about jellyfish, which I fully sent because we go to the aquarium all the time.
Griffin
I was gonna say, like, four times
David
a day you go the best place on earth. But, like, where she is, she has really reasonable questions of just like, why and how. Like, why do they exist? And then what's. What is this? Like, where's. And I'm like, how do they eat? How do they. And I'm like, I don't really know, man. They're weird. Jellyfish are weird. You ever been sung by jellyfish Question in the room?
Rebecca Alter
Oh, yeah, me too.
David
Stinks.
Rebecca Alter
It really hurts.
David
Sucks. Fucking sucks. You ever get peed on? Yeah, but not for that reason.
Rebecca Alter
Just for fun, we packed sand on it. Oh, sorry. I fully wasn't fine.
David
I think peeing doesn't really work. And sand possibly does. Right.
Rebecca Alter
A bit more.
David
Yes. Peeing is one of those classic old wives tales things.
Griffin
It does feel like as much as he's trying to break out of a sense of a Pixar formula that was starting to codify at this point. This is the most traditional Pixar move of. Now let's do eight minutes of basically blackout gags of what's funny about Fish.
Rebecca Alter
Right, Right.
Griffin
Like, has this the second Andy leaves the room and you're like, what's every character's game? I feel like certainly Monsters Inc. Has this with Mike and Sully walking through Monstropolis the first time. And you're like, okay, how does a monster city work? You have all of this. Which also feels like it's him knowing you have to counterbalance the trauma of what just happened in the movie. It's nice that they have a nice dynamic, but also, kids need to feel comfortable now.
David
It's very economical. You get right to Nemo going away without it feeling rushed, you know, getting in trouble.
Griffin
And it's basically. I mean, like, Nemo is taken at like minute 14 and I think Dory enters at minute 16. Like, he basically gets both of those things set up within the first 15 minutes of the movie.
David
Movie, of course. Right. Their school is that they will ride on the back of a manta ray
Griffin
and he'll tell them things about singing teacher named Mr. Ray.
David
He's just so good.
Griffin
Who likes diffusing conflict.
David
Right. Who's Right. Very, very good at handling interpersonal, interfacial.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, it's cool to have a teacher who's also sort of also the bus.
Griffin
Yes. Great. Great point. And the other parents are commending Marlin for seeming kind of chill, even if he's not funny.
David
But then Nemo, he pushes a little too far. He's encouraged by the other boys.
Griffin
What also happens, he finds out that the day he's finally letting his son go to school also is the day they're going to the drop off.
David
Yes.
Griffin
The dads are giving him credit.
David
Edge of the Reef.
Griffin
Yeah. You seem pretty sure I was stressed out. Right. And then that's. I. I regret it. I never should have let him do this. He runs out, he embarrasses Nemo in front of his friends, and Nemo feels the need to rebel. He's going to touch the.
Rebecca Alter
He's gonna touch the butt.
Griffin
Classic comedy.
Rebecca Alter
And it's also nice to have the comedy there because that's hilarious if you're a kid. And it helps diffuse the situation a little bit, which is very scary.
Griffin
It is an acting moment that I Love in this film, Nemo's silent performance of challenging his father to touch the butt. And they play it like Nemo is in, like, an FBI standoff where he won't break eye contact and he just taps it really quickly and in intensely.
David
I love the kid going, yeah, it's really funny.
Griffin
But there's also such a loud smack sound when he hits the butt. There's so much force on it. And his point is proven. He's ready to swim back to his father. Unfortunately, a big, bad dentist, right?
David
The deep sea divers come. One puts Nemo in a Ziploc bag. The other one really rudely takes a picture of Marlin.
Griffin
A detail I love is that when the flash goes off on Marlin, Marlin reacts by turning sideways and his eye goes walleyed. So it's like. Like the pose in the photo is what a fish would look like versus a cartoon fish.
David
I thought about that.
Griffin
It's a really quick gap.
David
His fish's eyes go this way, but in the movie they have to.
Griffin
He becomes flush and pointing out. I remember reading a fucking, like, screenplay guidebook that was showing how all Hollywood movies fit into, you know, certain storytelling formulas. And it tried to argue that the dentist is the antagonist of this movie. Movie, which is wrong. The antagonist of this movie is Marlin's anxiety.
David
Yes. Right. That is what needs to be overcome and defeated.
Griffin
Right.
David
I mean, also, Nemo does get captured in that. It does suck. It's a problem. No one's villainous, Right?
Griffin
Yes.
Rebecca Alter
But it is the same as these creatures just doing what they're want to do.
David
Right.
Rebecca Alter
All through the ocean, like the seagulls are. They're not villains, but they're not sympathetic.
Griffin
You could argue that the obstructions that almost feel malevolent in the movie are not circle of life, but, like, just the survival of the fittest mechanisms. Right. Of just. This is the ecosystem of how fish survive in relationship to each other. But there's also, like, the reason why the tank stuff doesn't feel stagnant is Gill is able to kind of teach Nemo the thing that Marlin's afraid to teach him, that Marlow Marlin is so Nemo. Philip Marlow Marlin is so terrified by what he perceives as Nemo's weakness because of the lucky Finn, that he wants to teach him how to live a life devoid of risk and is overcorrecting. And Gill is someone who similarly is, like, scarred and empowers Nemo to feel like he has the ability to actually do things.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, we'll get into his initiation ritual. But I love that they give him that little thing to feel brave. Ahu.
David
Ahi, ahi. Okay, so Marlon bangs into Dory trying to find you. Bangs into Dory immediately. She can't help him.
Griffin
Perfect character introduction. Well, of course, I know. Right this way. And then while he's following her, she starts doing the panicked looking over her shoulder, who's this creepy guy? And then she does the aggro like, you got. You got a problem?
Rebecca Alter
Huh?
Griffin
Huh?
David
It's a tossed off joke, obviously. It then becomes the premise of an entirely new movie.
Griffin
It runs in my family. At least I think it does.
David
I think it does. Where are they? Makes me laugh so hard every time.
Griffin
It's just a two shot that holds for like 10 seconds of silence.
David
I laugh and thinking about it.
Griffin
And then she looks back and she goes, hi, I'm Dory. That it's one. It's one run on thought.
Rebecca Alter
The timing is so good, right?
David
Where are they? It's just so fucking funny because like, you never need to explain it. The whole movie then explains it. But the dad is fucking pattern baldness, blue tang or whatever. We'll get to that.
Griffin
Yeah, but the movie's been moving so fast up until this point that when you have that sustained two shot of just letting the joke rhythm of Ellen drive the movie, it feels like a nice reset point.
David
Dorian him. Then pretty much the next thing is the sharks, right?
Rebecca Alter
Like pretty much run into bruises.
David
This is the one thing in the movie that always felt an eensy bit cute to me.
Griffin
The entire shark dynamic, the self help therapy speak stuff.
Rebecca Alter
I don't love the trope of characters. Same with Wreck It Ralph. In group therapy. Group therapy or in a blank. Anonymous.
David
Overdone.
Griffin
It's not my favorite. Now can I play devil's advocate and say this was pretty early in that it is wildly overdone now.
David
I remember not liking it in 2003. 3.
Griffin
We must acknowledge that the sharks were kind of the immediate breakout characters. Bruce was big. Bruce had a big summer.
David
Well, Bruce is the breakout character.
Griffin
Well, Dory's a movie star. Dory's like a leading lady. Like Dory's first.
Rebecca Alter
Dory's first on the call. She's like.
David
She's an ingenue.
Rebecca Alter
No, but one of the big posters,
David
of course, is Bruce's biggest face in the back. I love, of course, that it's the great Barry Humphries. Dame Edna herself playing scary. And then Eric Bana. And who's the third one?
Griffin
Interesting. So the third shark in this dynamic is played by Bruce Spence. Now, here's what's interesting about this guy. And hold onto your seats. He played the gyrocopter pilot in The Road Warrior, aka Mad Max 2.
Rebecca Alter
Whoa. Whoa.
Griffin
He's also Tian Medon in Star Wars Episode 3 Revenge of the Sith.
David
This very year, he is the train man. Because Ratrix Revolutions is out in just a few months.
Griffin
David. He was arguably and king of the box office in 2003, except he got
David
cut out a lot of the money. Rings.
Griffin
Entertainment Weekly did a little sidebar in their 2003 year in review where they said he was the highest grossing actor because he had Matrix Revolutions and Finding Nemo. And if he had made the cut of Return of the King, I think he would have had $2 billion in box office.
Rebecca Alter
Wow. It's like how Jonathan Bailey was king of the box office last year.
David
Now, now why is that? Well, apart from. Oh, because Drake, Jurassic. Was that last year? Yeah, was that. But last year it was that he saw a dinosaur.
Griffin
Right.
David
And went, oh, cool.
Griffin
He cried.
David
Kennedy was the scarecrow. Yes. Ben. I like the shark house.
Griffin
Thank you. I like that they live around bombs.
David
The bombs attached to chains are awesome. The bombs are cool and them being blown up is cool. It is funny that Ben's like, attached to chains. Not just bums, my friend.
Griffin
No, let's not forget.
David
And I like a shipwreck too.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
I also feel like, what is it? Chum and what's the other shark's name?
David
Crunch or Crush? Let me find out.
Rebecca Alter
Anchor. Anchor. Chum and Bruce.
Griffin
Anchor and Chum.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
David
Oh, Crush is the turtle, right? Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
And Anchor is a hammerhead.
Griffin
Yes. And Chum has the hook through his face. They just feel like very Ben characters. Specifically Anchor and Chum.
David
They should get their own movie. But yeah, like the joke obviously, right, is they. They don't eat fish anymore or what will they be eating? Doesn't really come up.
Griffin
Kelp or some shit. But I just think this was like real vegans.
David
I think sharks need, like, a tremendous amount of food to operate.
Griffin
Right. Like, I think this is incredibly well staged action sequence.
Rebecca Alter
It is.
David
It's incredibly well done. Yeah. And the bomb's exploding. Dory's. Dory's blood coming out of her nose. And then the way his eyes change. Like shark eyes. Yes. He just starts tripping. That's good. They're like, no, no, Mike, don't do it, Mike. You know, that's really funny.
Griffin
I think, I think, like, several points in this movie In a film that you would not classify as an action film, Stanton kind of like pulls off a fish version of an Indiana Jones sequence where even. Just like Bruce leading them through the establishment of the mines in the sea. Right? Like all the sort of visual stuff it needs to teach you. That's then going to pay off in the sequence. The missile silo that they can hide out in. How they can activate that to get rid of Bruce. Which then even has the comedy within it of anchor and chum jumping in between Bruce's bites to apologize for his behavior. And it's just all like. He keeps teaching you things that don't feel like overstated setups that pay off in very satisfying ways where then you can just have action happen with real tension. Because, you know, this is a universe in which death can happen. Characters can die in this movie. Movie and still get jokes in. Ben's laughing at how excited I am.
David
Dory is so funny when she forgets that they're being chased and then launches the missile so that they go back towards the shark. Right?
Griffin
Yes. Yes. This is.
David
Oh, any Dory joke like that works.
Griffin
We should call this out, too. This is the other thing is that Dory can read English even though she can't remember things. That's the reason that Marlin has to stick with her. Because the only thing they have to lead them towards Nemo is the address written on her back.
David
42.
Rebecca Alter
All the way during this is when they find the goggles, the diver's goggles. He clocks them. We learn she can read English because she sees the sign that says escape.
Griffin
Yes. Right. Right. This kind of perfect. Like, he's stuck with her because she can do a thing that he can't do even if she doesn't understand what she's doing. And she's constantly getting it wrong. But then in this, like, chain of events, it's like going after the goggles and the snap of the elastic band is what causes her to bleed, which is. Activates Bruce.
David
Yeah. She's so good. Even just doing the kind. I'm fine. I'm fine. You know, like the.
Griffin
This is also a character design that
David
should not be like a plausible nosebleed coming out of it.
Griffin
Yeah, I love these things. She's so fucking narrow. Her face is basically a pencil when
Rebecca Alter
head on with eyes sticking out either side.
Griffin
Right. And she's just got, like, a nose bump and a mouth.
David
There's a lot of blue tangs at the Brooklyn Aquarium, the New York Aquarium. And my daughter said. I was like, dory There she is.
Griffin
This is an incredibly difficult actual species to get emotion.
David
I got no notes. Yeah, I got no notes in any of the animation in this movie. I think it's perfect. I think it's the apex of Pixar. Yeah, I really do.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
I mean, maybe Ratatouille, like Ratatouille has such a beautiful kind of like approach to all of its things.
Rebecca Alter
I think this is a better movie.
David
Well, that's okay, everyone relax. We're all saying stuff.
Griffin
This is the five star tier for me, right? The two Toy Stories, Monsters, Inc. Finding Nemo, Ratatouille, Incredibles. Those are the ones at the very, very top of the heap for me. Those are like perfect movies in my opinion. I do think Stanton is the guy within Pixar who starts getting most fascinated by the idea that in computer animation you can simulate a camera camera in a way that you can't in hand drawn. And he pushes that really far. In Wally, where Wally is really selling the illusion of there is a human operator like Wally, has delayed zooms and shit like that.
David
I know this is basically spoiling our list, but do you like this more than Wally? Where are you there? I'm not sure where I am.
Griffin
I think Wally's a little bit more imperfect than this film. The ecstatic highs of wise also. You just have to think about when that movie got announced and it was like, Andrew Stanton is making a robot rom com in the style of silent films. I lost my fucking mind. When it was like, he's making a robot Buster Keaton movie. It felt like they had designed a film specifically for me.
David
That makes sense. Becca.
Rebecca Alter
Huh?
David
Wally or Nemo?
Rebecca Alter
Oh, Nemo. Like, Wally is like, I love Ratatouille. So much so that that's not far behind Nemo. But Wally, I have a harder time with the things that are imperfect about it.
David
But you think this is Stanton's best film? Maybe. But Wally's more of a great look. This is the debate. This is the grand debate we'll have over these six weeks.
Griffin
I guess it's like a Godfather versus Apocalypse now situation where you're like every.
David
Oh, that's interesting. I don't find that a tough situation anymore. I recently rewatched Apocalypse now and was like, I think I can see like this movie has left.
Griffin
It's a messy movie.
David
It's such a big movie for me as a teen. Obviously, it's incredible.
Griffin
I also think, like, the most ecstatic things that movie can accomplish are part and parcel with its messiness.
David
Right? Totally.
Griffin
Which feels the Same as Wally to me, where I'm like, wally is like a couple steps off of being perfect for me. But if it was perfect, it maybe wouldn't able to achieve the weird things it's able to pull off. But this film, it feels like Stanton is. With really fucking limited technology at this time, speaking still. And this shit's so fucking expensive to do. And they talk about the methods they had to develop and the strategies of how to stop it from costing, like, $500 million. How do you continue to visually maintain the relationship between the characters and the water they're in?
David
Right, right, right, right, right.
Griffin
Like in Shark Tale, it's just characters floating in this. They're like, we can't in every shot show the bubbles or the waves of their fin motion. We can't always show the distortion of. Of, you know, the thickness of the water at this point at different levels in the darkness or whatever. But they choose their battles really well. They're all these insane hacks they do where basically they create one texture surface, which is the surface of the water whenever they're peeking their heads up above. And then they copy that and put a different layer on top of it to make it the ocean floor. So basically the sand and the water are the same element, but one is fixed and one is in motion. Similarly, they couldn't figure out how to make the anemone. And the Monsters Inc. Team, which was working on the other side of the studio, had cracked the fur thing, right? And someone went, oh, if you take a ball of fur and then, like, size it up like crazy so every strand is really thick.
Rebecca Alter
Whoa.
Griffin
Then the anemone is just overgrown hair. So there's stuff in, like, animation that's like when you hear stories about Sam Raimi figuring out a hack for, like. Like, how to pull off a special effect in a cheap way that this movie is using to, like, insane effect because none of it feels like shortcuts. And it's just so painterly and beautiful. And even just the fucking. The lighting on this movie.
Rebecca Alter
I wanted to bring up the lighting especially because we're in a crisis in 2026. The color, where it's so thoughtfully done,
Griffin
so vivid and beautiful. And Pixar is like a big part of their process is what they call the color script, where they do these pastel kind of storyboards, not of every shot, but basically of every sequence to look at the color tones of the
Rebecca Alter
movie, which is like a classic Disney 50s type thing as well, to establish
Griffin
the moods of, like, when is it brightest? And when is it coldest? And when do you need to establish a tone of things feeling ominous versus sad, you know? And I think this movie uses the, like, depths of the ocean to convey those things. Things get brighter when they're closer to the surface.
David
Very cool.
Griffin
Where you see more reflection of the light. Obviously.
David
The whole anglerfish sequence, you know, is such a bravura demonstration of all that. You know, the light on the anglerfish.
Rebecca Alter
So they get away, and pretty quickly they're swimming down to retrieve.
Griffin
Right. When they get away from Bruce, that's when they come across the anglerfish.
Rebecca Alter
They don't get a second. Teresa.
Griffin
No, it's.
David
Yeah, it's. You know how male anglerfish reproduce? How, you know. Right.
Griffin
They suck their own decks. I'm taking a guess.
David
They're little and they fuse to the girl anglerfish and, like, melt into her and just leave behind their balls. And then the female anglerfish uses the balls to, like, make atlay eggs.
Griffin
Do they come and get the balls back?
David
No, they die. That's the end for them. They die, mate. You know, they're just like, go out on top. Exactly.
Griffin
I mean, nice work if you can get it.
David
And it's one of those, like, dimorphism things where, like, the woman is, like. The woman.
Griffin
The woman.
David
The female. English is 10 times bigger than the male or whatever.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. Like, the ocean floor stuff brings up, like, deep sea is as scary and unknowable as outer space. Of course, the creatures that are in it are alien. This one looks like an HR Giger alien. Like, it's terrifying.
Griffin
This is a great call. I mean, James Cameron taught us about the aliens of the deep and the ghosts of the abyss.
David
Ghost of the abyss. Alien to the deep. That's right.
Griffin
I think it is very smart that this movie avoids. Yeah.
David
They can't go down there.
Griffin
If you were to anthropomorphize the deep sea creatures more, it would feel like this is a bad neighborhood in a way that was coded very dangerously.
Rebecca Alter
Leave that shit for sharp tale.
Griffin
Exactly. Right. It makes it much easier to just be like, this is basically outer space and we don't understand the rules of what's happening here. These characters don't have faces that you can, like, understand or talk to.
David
Yeah. I feel like if. If it had a voice, it would be too scary for kids.
Griffin
Totally.
David
Like, breathing. It's already kind of scary. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Griffin
And it's. Right. It's selective which characters can't speak. It's the ones where even Just being around them is potentially a danger, you know.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
David
So to move on from the, you know, from this, like, pretty quickly. We are also in the tank. Right. Like around this time is when we're sort of cutting over to the tank. I was looking.
Griffin
I feel like the tank basically comes in 30 minutes in. We stay with just marlin and dory for a while. No. Excuse me. It's right after the brew sequence because the bomb goes off. It cuts to the two birds and the one who thinks the other one far. Some really good tension release gags and
Rebecca Alter
a really good way to bridge ocean world and silly dentist world.
Griffin
So the tank comes in minute 25.
Rebecca Alter
Cool. And the tank is like, we've already. At this point, we've already been introduced to, like 12 incredible characters. Let's throw in a whole perfect little chamber piece sitcom ensemble of characters who are going absolutely stir crazy.
David
You got Gil, Willem Dafoe. Yeah, Willem Dafoe.
Griffin
Baby Jane Doe.
David
Sorry, I'm being a. Catherine Lanasa.
Griffin
Baby Cheeto.
Rebecca Alter
What name is J. Doe.
David
Baby J Doe. There's a Baby J Do in the Pit, Season 2. Early on, there is a abandoned baby.
Griffin
Okay.
David
And Catherine Lanasa.
Rebecca Alter
Who's gonna look over this baby chain?
David
There's a baby chain dump.
Griffin
Sounds good.
David
Yeah, it rocks.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
And like, pit fandom, which is very normal, not toxic at all. Totally. Right. One of the recurring jokes about this season is like, they're always like predictions for finale. Baby Jane Doe, you know, saves the day. You know, like, she will have laser vision, you know, that they keep being like this abandoned base.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. Someone was like, I've seen the ending. And just. I won't spoil it, but don't look up Baby Jane Doe and rocket launcher.
Griffin
I. I don't say this lightly.
David
Yeah, go ahead.
Griffin
But just three shows I don't engage with. In the last four months, I've just been reading insane headlines about the way the fandom is treating these actors.
David
It's broken containment. Like, right, like that.
Griffin
You are reading about fandom needs to die.
David
It really does.
Rebecca Alter
It's really what's happening in pit world. The.
Griffin
That was happening to the heated rivalry guys. I'm like, this isn't good. But I'm not surprised. That's driven on a sort of Team Edward. Team Jacob over obsession with.
David
But blankies are great. We love your money. I mean, and your fandom. Easy, easy, easy, easy.
Griffin
But then, like, the pit, that's been happening. And then there was the Percy Jackson kid was like, I can't go to prom.
Rebecca Alter
Harassing Whoever. Whoever he takes to prom. The fans are going to send death threats.
Griffin
He was basically like, the fans have, like, tracked down every girl in my high school class and is sending death threats saying, like, you better not go on a date with him because he belongs to me.
David
Oh, my God.
Griffin
Everyone needs to change.
David
It's just. But it's the Internet and it's the way the algorithms feed and all that, that it's so crazy.
Griffin
But Pit is the last show I would expect to have that, of course. And I just keep reading these.
David
I think that's why it took everyone by surprise where they're like, I went. It's. It's a. Like a sober hospital procedural. And everyone's just like, I can't believe that Robbie did that. It's like he's a fictional character.
Griffin
But then they're, like, angry at which actors aren't coming back when it's not.
David
Oh, they're being. They're. They're being real normal about everything, this group. Okay, so we got just.
Griffin
Right. And then it's like sitcom all stars, right? It's like, Brad Garrett, he's the puffer fish. We have Allison Cheney from the West Wing.
David
We love her.
Griffin
Stephen Roof from News Radio. Brad Garrett from Every Loves Raymond, obviously. Vicky Lewis, also from News Radio. Austin Pendleton is ggle.
David
He's. I mean, he's. He's a guy, you know, theater actor, million movies.
Griffin
You know, we love Max from the Muppet Movie. And then Joe Ran is Joe Ray. But immediately everyone has their bit.
David
He's clean.
Griffin
Nemo wakes up and sees all the scary imagery of the, like, aquarium toys and everything. You feel like, okay, so this is going to be, like, analogous to him being in prison now, and he's stuck with a bunch of scary inmates. And then immediately it's like, no, this is like a mental hospital.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, it's Cuckoo's Nest.
Griffin
They all have conditions. Right?
David
Right. So, okay, let me try. So Gil is scarred, and he's kind of battle, you know?
Rebecca Alter
And we learned he also has a bad fin.
David
He's got a bad fin, too. They never stopped him.
Griffin
I don't know if you've noticed this. The scarring pattern on his face is basically one to one with Platoon.
David
I was about to say it's Platoon. Right.
Griffin
They give him the same scars. Dafoe plays it so straight. But also, I think it's, like, incredibly warm in this movie.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. He's an alternate father figure.
David
I know. I want Gil to believe in me.
Griffin
He's so good. Because you're just like there's a universe in which they go. Like, the joke is, you're really intense.
David
He's the drill sergeant.
Griffin
You play it really seriously and at the end you show a little bit of warmth. But even from the beginning, he's playing the vulnerability of this guy.
David
It's important too, that he was the only fish that ever lived in the ocean. Yeah, he is. The rest of them are tankies. Yeah. Brad the puffer fish. So he. Sometimes he goes puff mode. I guess that's his problem. He doesn't really have any other problems.
Griffin
He's got like a hair trigger anxiety response.
David
Right, right.
Griffin
It's the equivalent of having, like, panic attacks or whatever, I guess.
David
Peach. Peach is kind of maybe the most balanced, but she's a bit of a
Griffin
goth gossip, I guess, and I know it all.
David
Yeah. Bubbles. Loves bubbles.
Griffin
Yes.
David
He's obsessed with the bubbles.
Griffin
He's ocd and he's obsessed with the little treasure chest that releases bubbles and trying to keep them in there.
David
One of the great fish tank toys. If not, I think the top or I guess.
Griffin
No, Gurgle's the one who's ocd. Yeah, Gurgle's a freak.
David
And then. And then Deb. I just love the idea that she's obsessed with her own reflection.
Griffin
This is my sister Flo, who she thinks is liar. She tells Nemo not to trust.
David
So funny.
Rebecca Alter
It's really good. Yeah.
Griffin
And then Jacques is just a. A high status, elitist Frenchman.
David
He's kind of good, actually.
Griffin
Shock rolls.
David
So they all want out, though, right? Like, they all want out of the tank and they have, like, you know, a sort of developing plan that Nemo fits into.
Griffin
He's dropped into a great escape situation where it's like there have been years of failed plans. They keep on trying things that don't work. And Emo feels to them like he offers some new opportunities, specifically in the fact that he's small.
David
Right, Right.
Rebecca Alter
Yep.
David
He can go into the filter and put the stone in the fan and.
Griffin
But speaking to how complete the kind of vision of this movie was when Stanton wrote it, the major changes you hear about in the film are taking out things that were gilding the lily rather than needing to figure out how to ultimately get to things. So, like, you know, unwinding the flashback structure, he originally had Gill be more of a I don't know whether to trust this guy or not character. He played him more scary up top.
David
Sure.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
There's a scene where Nemo gets Gill to open up and talk about what happened to him and how he ended up in the tank. And he tells this whole story about his family that went missing and where he came from. And then Nemo finds out later in the movie that Gil has been lying. It's like a joker, do you want to know how I got these scars? Thing? And that every detail that Gil told him is in a picture book that's in the dentist's waiting room that he hears a kid read. And he was just like, we don't need this.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
Just let Gil be actually invested in helping this kid.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. This movie is already stuffed to the gill.
Griffin
Right. There were originally two seagulls and how
David
many comedy points there? Come on.
Griffin
One trillion comedy points. One trillion.
Rebecca Alter
I now owe you comedy points.
Griffin
You're in debt. There were originally two seagulls, or not seagulls. What is it? Pelican. Oh, yeah, Right. So the one who ends up trying to eat them was originally a fully developed character, and there was kind of a good and bad pelican, and Nigel's trying to protect them, and this other one's trying to eat them. And they were just like, none of this is necessary because they already have the seagulls. Right.
David
That's their thing.
Griffin
But I love Nigel as a character as just this kind of like, Jeffrey Rush. Just playing warm, Right? Just playing like a lad who just loves coming in because he likes dentistry. Right.
David
It's funny how they all know about dentistry. Yeah, it's awesome because they've been in this tank all these years, but they're stuck.
Griffin
Nigel comes and visits of his own.
David
He likes to hear the, like, dentist update.
Griffin
What's the guy gossip?
David
Which will he using?
Rebecca Alter
It's funny because it's like they are out. They are watching the dentistry. Like, television. They're so invested.
Griffin
Right. But for them, it's also like studying their captor to be like, where are the vulnerabilities?
David
What's genius about Nigel, too, is you immediately recognize that is how they are gonna get out of there.
Griffin
This is what I'm talking about. It's like, there's such intentionality of this story that anytime a character's introduced, you're like, what's the function they're gonna serve? And anytime you're shown a visual element, you're sort of like, oh, right, he could keep people in his beak. And none of it. It's all what everyone talks about. Being the ideal of what you want to achieve in dramatic storytelling and especially in film narratives is surprising but inevitable. How can you, in 90 minutes, pay off the things that felt like they were. They had to happen. But yet when they happen, they don't feel deep rigor.
David
You really locked into this movie. I. I've seen it so many times.
Griffin
I've seen so many.
David
I mean, so am I. Yeah.
Griffin
But I. I truly, I. This is one of my go to I can't sleep movies. This is like a real comfort movie for me. And, you know, we were talking about. We did our Edge of Tomorrow episode on Patreon, which I guess will have just come out or recently come out.
Rebecca Alter
Right.
Griffin
And we were talking about how you will often identify a sleep movie and watch it like literally every night for like a couple of months, pretty much. And then you kind of like squeeze all the juice out of it and you move on to something new for a while. Yeah. Nemo has just been in the rotation for 20 years.
Rebecca Alter
For me, I probably haven't seen this movie until I rewatched it Yesterday in over 15 years or something. And it was like, I know every
Griffin
word, I know every line.
Rebecca Alter
I know every scene. A lot of the lines are also so catchy, so sticky. This is like full of just these effortless, feeling catchphrases. It's not like donke catchphrases.
Griffin
It's like, no, they're not dumb jokes. And so much of it is the specificity so memorable. The actor makes a really interesting choice in the rhythm of their line delivery or the character, the design of the character that is saying that thing and the animation of what they do when they're saying it.
David
So where do we leave off? Well, we've done the tank for a while, the Dory thing. They escape the anglerfish. They escape the anglerfish.
Griffin
We go from the tank to the anglerfish fish.
David
And then it is when basically, like, Dory doesn't absorb the directions of, like, avoid the jellyfish. And they go into the jellyfish.
Rebecca Alter
So.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Or is this Marlon's fault?
Rebecca Alter
It does. It's Marlon's fault.
David
She sort of remembers that they shouldn't do it. And Marlin's like, what are you talking about? This is the right way. Because the. The, like, school of fish.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
They're like, they don't. Or they keep in person. That's John Ratzenberger.
Griffin
That's John Rattenberger.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. So we're going to get back to the Grumpy Gus and an amazing.
Griffin
He's like, you have Marlon. Yeah, you have Marlon dejected that they lost the goggles. Right. And that's when Dory introduces the Just keep swimming to Cheer him up that she's also invested in him.
Rebecca Alter
She was able with the angler fish because he used the light like a reading light. She was able to do. P. Sherman, 42 Wallaby Way, Sydney. They've lost the goggles. But this is. For the first time, she's learning to remember.
Griffin
Yeah. Which I just think is so elegantly done that it's a gradual thing rather than at one moment. Suddenly you have your payoff moments with her. You have the. Like, her making the emotional plea to him that, like, when I'm with you, I remember things. And you have the moment where the whole Nemo thing comes flashing back to her.
Rebecca Alter
She's so proud of herself right now. For she's like, I've remembered that it's incremental.
Griffin
You give her little victory. So it's not just like at one point in the movie, suddenly she's.
Rebecca Alter
And because her. Well, a. She repeats it a hundred times. But also, like, because the remembering the address is something so emotionally important to her that, like, I won't remember the address of a house I grew up in, but I'll remember. P. Sherman, 42 Wallaby, Sydney, until, like, I die, probably.
Griffin
And especially her riffing on it and her turning into the songs. Ask me again and I'll tell you. P. Sherman, 42 Wally Way.
Rebecca Alter
So they get to this trap, and the trench looks dark and scary. Marlon.
Griffin
Sorry, I was pulling up to remind myself where I was. Instead, I just got the scary sounds of the trench.
Rebecca Alter
And Marlon is obviously like, well, we don't want to go through the dark, scary trench. We need to go over a fish who. She had asked for directions earlier, told
Griffin
her it's the school of fish. It's the final thing after they've been making fun of Marlon, and he's like, fuck these guys. Then they're like, one last thing. But it's after he's swum off. So only she's there to hear it. And they don't know that she can't remember.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, right. That is. Then I thought this happened later in the movie. But I'm getting them confused with the school of fish in the end who we'll get to, who are also a big silver school of fish.
Griffin
But the clockwork kind of precision of just like, there aren't any cheats in the story.
Rebecca Alter
They are so funny.
Griffin
They're so specific. Like, the conflicts they find themselves in, why they're there, why there isn't an easy out, why they need to fight to work through the thing. Like, if Marlin wasn't offended by them mocking because he's so self serious. Then he would have heard the thing about the trench.
Rebecca Alter
Right. And he doesn't like asking for directions. She's very friendly. She doesn't mind going up to anyone.
Griffin
His stubbornness screws them.
Rebecca Alter
They do the like, hey, is this fellow bothering you?
Griffin
Yeah, lady.
Rebecca Alter
So they play a game of charades to cheer her up. And then because. And so we've seen that they can move in this really fun way. And then they do a big arrow. Cause they tell them they need to get to the. The eac. Oh, right. They know where Sidney is.
David
They show the little waves. They show the opera house. They turn into marlin and they do, like a sad face. Marlin. Which is pretty funny.
Griffin
They do a mocking impression over his shoulder.
Rebecca Alter
They are very funny. They give them the directions.
Griffin
Right. Swim through, not over.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. He doesn't trust her. So they get. He distracts her. He's like, look, a shiny thing. And they go them up.
Griffin
The jellyfish. Them up.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
This is the sequence.
David
But then they're woken up. I mean, we cut to the tank and then when we cut back to them, they're woken up on the turtles.
Rebecca Alter
It's so scary, intense and so beautiful.
Griffin
It's another camera decision where he said, they animated this whole sequence. And he was like, it looks too neat and clean and perfect. There isn't tension to this. And the guy who was head of camera in the movie was like, let me try something. And he clicked twice to zoom in. Like, literally just did that.
David
Sure.
Griffin
And did it kind of like arbitrarily. And Stanton was like, oh, if the compositions are asymmetrical, if the jellyfish's bodies are cut off, and it feels like there's just this weird environment that you can't see his full bodies. And so all of the camera placements within the sequence, which is a lot more quick, cutty, are all kind of a little disorienting.
David
How did they stop the camera from getting wet?
Griffin
Really good question. Question. It's a fun sequence.
David
Fun. The. We're getting to the turtles. The turtles, okay. In my opinion, the most positive representation of a Californian in the world.
Griffin
This is a really good take.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
David
Like, of that kind of like the surfer dude thing. Andrew Stanton, a Massachusetts. And although he's probably lived in California for, like, decades at this point.
Griffin
Yes.
David
Doing, like, surfer dude accent.
Griffin
Oh, man.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
You know.
Rebecca Alter
Right.
David
But it's like the whole point of crush is he's just like, I'm 100 years old or 150 or whatever he is. Look at me. I'm fucking chilling.
Griffin
There's nothing annoying about this guy. He's not forcing his worldview on. Not at all. The more you talk to him, the more you're like, this guy's got it figured out.
Rebecca Alter
He's like, you know, when there's, like, cool teen, like, when there's cool Jesus for teens. Do you know what I mean?
Griffin
Crushes cool Jesus.
David
You think he's kind of like a youth pastor, but like a really nice youth pastor.
Rebecca Alter
He's like the cool Jesus. He's the cool hippie Jesus that the youth pastor is talking about.
David
Yeah. A youth pastor wishes he could be
Rebecca Alter
crushed, but he is. Show. He's demonstrating an extremely different parenting style. Right. Marlon is being exposed to it is
David
actually healthy, much less helicoptery kind of parenting.
Griffin
He'll find his way.
Rebecca Alter
A way to teach your kid, a way a kid learns to be safe in the world is to fail or fall off the swing.
Griffin
To let them be empowered in their choices and feel like it's basically based on experiences rather than rules being placed around them.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. And feel it. To have a sense of adventure that feels safe and just the whole idea
Griffin
of, like, you know, locating the EAC as a real phenomenon, then being like, man. Okay, so turtles. Would they be like surfers? If they're literally just in the flow of this?
Rebecca Alter
It's sort of like a highway, like when you see the fish that are merging on.
David
But it also is skydiving. Yes. Coated, too.
Rebecca Alter
When Squirt gives the big skydiver, like, okay, going to have a great jump today.
David
Totally.
Griffin
I mean, incredible performance from Stanton. It's another one of these early examples where here is a role that they earmark of, like, well, at some point, we'll hire, like, a celebrity to do it. And he would do it in all the story reels.
David
Brad Bird doing Edna mode or whatever. Right.
Griffin
Well, that's the opposite story where they hired much like William H. Macy. It's never been named, but everyone believes it's Lily Tomlin, that he hired Lily Tomlin and she was doing the records, and he kept on giving her really specific directions of being like, no, I think it's more like this. And it's more like this. And Lily Tomlin literally. Excuse me. I got myself to a tongue twister. Lily Tomlin literally goes, I think you should just do this.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, why don't you do it then? And then.
Griffin
And then he just does.
Rebecca Alter
Edna was born.
Griffin
Right. This was the opposite. Where when they went, Edna Mode. When they were in the early stages, everyone around Stanton was just like, you should just do this.
Rebecca Alter
He's like a Hawaiian shirt guy. Well, all the Pixar guys at this point in time are Hawaiian shirt guys.
Griffin
It's a little preppier.
David
He's got that in New England thing going on.
Griffin
Yeah. But this is outside of himself. But he just, like, he found the character. No one's gonna do it better.
David
Should I have a Hawaiian shirt?
Griffin
No, absolutely not. That would be a nightmare.
Rebecca Alter
I think you're wearing a baseball shirt, and it's awesome.
David
I'm. I'm in my Mets era.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
I keep buying jerseys.
Rebecca Alter
So the other thing, as we've been saying, about how all the character choices make sense for the type of animal, this type of more relaxed parenting style, not only that they're surfers and whatever else, but it's also because they hatch their eggs really far away. And Marlon goes, how do you trust that they'll come and swim all this way in the big, big ocean and find you? And it's like, oh, when they're ready, they. They'll. When you know, you know, you know.
Griffin
But it's finding those gifts of, like, you do research on different species, and you go, oh, that's interesting. That's an interesting character detail.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
Rather than forcing things onto characters, you find these discoveries. I want to mention that in between right before Marlon waking up.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, we have tank stuff.
Griffin
Yes. You have the first attempt at Tank escape.
David
Yep.
Griffin
Which is genuinely, like, pretty upsetting.
Rebecca Alter
That's also an interesting Indiana Jones type.
David
I really like that it's a moment for Gilbert to be like, I pushed the kid too hard or like, I was being crazy, like, thinking this would work or whatever.
Griffin
It's also that he's only been dealing with other adults and that he's pushing Nemo to the same extent. He's the opposite of Marlin, where rather than not letting him do anything, he's making Nemo do too much.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. So he pressures him. The plan is, because Nemo's small, he's gonna swim into the filtration system and jam one of those little tank pebbles into the rotating motor to jam it, and then the tank will get gunky. They will all have to be put into little bags while the dentist cleans it. We get a really fun visual where he's explaining how the plan is going to work and talk about the camera placement. It's like this POV of these bagged fish rolling across the highway.
Griffin
Stan, I think, talks about it as the fincher sequence. He's like, this is my homage to the fight club. Here's how we're going to infiltrate. You know, talking through it and all the crazy camera movements and whatever.
Rebecca Alter
It's really fun.
Griffin
It is a really smart plan.
David
It's a good plan. But it has this assumption to it that I do like that it's like there's a fish logic.
Rebecca Alter
Yes.
David
Of like, humans will only do one thing right and they don't realize that, like, yeah, a human can just go on Amazon and buy like a new filter.
Griffin
But I. I like that Nemo gets close. Like, it's not like it's a total failure. No, but. But it is so scary. Scary that it does actually set Marlon back. Not Marlon. I'm sorry, Gil. It makes him question everything to a degree where he's just like, these are the lies I'm telling myself so I can survive in this tank. We're never getting out of here.
Rebecca Alter
Right.
Griffin
And it flips the dynamic where Nemo is going to have to console him, basically.
Rebecca Alter
Okay.
David
Because Nemo finally does it because he hears about his dad's heroism.
Griffin
Well, I'm sorry, let's just run through. Because I need to, I need. That's coming up because you have this lesson with the turtles, right? And they send him off the eac, but they start spreading the message, right? This is a sequence that they talk about is just like kind of Pixar at their best, where one night they were like, fuck, we gotta solve this story problem. How can Nemo possibly receive word that his father is looking for him at this point in the movie? Wouldn't he just give up? How do we stop the character from just. Just conceding? And they're just like, well, what if it's a fucking, like game of radio, right? What if it's a chain of conversation? And then what are the opportunities for characterization and all of those things? Because all these have to be like a 4 second gag of what's funny is, oh, are swordfish like upper crust British fencers?
Rebecca Alter
So fun?
Griffin
And they basically just like write this all in one night. All do the voices. These are all Pixar people, people. It's all like Peterson and Stanton, like, repeating different, you know, archetypes and cultural stereotypes. And it's like a really fun journey that just feels like a fun story exploration. But then you get to Nigel hearing it, Nigel recognizing it, being like, I
David
gotta tell this clownfish.
Griffin
But you can tell that he's like, this is gonna mean a lot to this kid. I gotta tell him Right away. Flies through with urgency. Nemo immediately is like, what? Actually, no, not possible. He's immediately heartened and then rejects it as like. That is not a thing my father could do.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. That. My dad would never battle a shark. Like, let alone even like Sandy Plankton's dad wouldn't even battle a shark.
Griffin
If you told him your dad is just swimming really far to get to you. Even that would test his.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
His. His notion of his father.
Rebecca Alter
But this is a beautiful moment because he. Nigel says some identifying features about marlin,
Griffin
little sport fish, trout, tuna.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. His name's Marlon.
Griffin
Yeah. So you said he fought a shark. I heard he took down three. And you just. You just fucking. Like Spielberg shot pushing on Nemo's face. And his eyes widening.
David
Right.
Griffin
As he realizes the expression of his father's love in a way his father could never say to him. The understanding of what his father has gone through to try to get to him, I just find incredibly emotionally overwhelming.
David
I think you're right. I think you're right. I think it's very. Emotionally. It's very beautiful.
Rebecca Alter
And so Nemo makes up his mind. He's gonna try the plan again. Gill wouldn't have wanted to push him.
Griffin
She disappears in a cut. Like Nigel's telling the story. All the other fish in the tank are so excited for Nemo. And then they realize he's missing and he's already gone back up the pipe. It's like hearing of his father's bravery has emboldened him to believe that he can do things as well we should.
David
Also, of course, around now is when Nemo. I mean, when Marlin and Dory get sucked into a whale. And Dory speaks whale to the whale.
Griffin
But that's right after this. And that changes. That changes humanity forever. It changes the world.
David
Everyone just could not stop talking about was seismic. It is so funny having I've seen Finding Dory so many times now because my daughter vastly prefers it to finding New Nemo. And. And that movie, I think, is pretty fun. And we will talk about it on this show. Yeah, but the way that they're just like. Well, Dory has to speak whale. That should be crucial, actually. The fact that Dory doesn't know where her family was. That's the emotional arc of the movie. That throwaway line like in the first movie.
Rebecca Alter
Where did Dory learn just to read?
David
Correct. Like, they're basically like, what are the things about Dory now? That is the spine of Finding.
Griffin
I like that movie a lot. Everything that drives Me crazy in it is the checklist dc.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. I hate that in prequel type thing.
Griffin
Yes. Like, I. I hate that they bring the turtles back, even though I love Crush and it just feels like they're like, guys, you. You have to bring the turtles back. We need to sell, like, turtle merch, you know?
David
Yes.
Griffin
There's stuff like that. That's really annoying.
Rebecca Alter
Turtle talk we'll get into as well.
Griffin
We'll get into turtle talk.
Rebecca Alter
But whale.
Griffin
Yes.
David
The whale speaking.
Rebecca Alter
Whale is just. That is one of the most biblical, ancient, important archetypes in. In myths and sagas and legends is our whale heroes get swallowed by a whale. You just have to do it. Pinocchio. One of the greatest animated films of all time.
David
True.
Rebecca Alter
Swallowed by whale.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
I think it's some of the best decor
Griffin
inside of a whale.
David
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Baleen.
Rebecca Alter
That's their little teeth things.
David
Yeah. They're like filters.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. Which is so funny because you think of them as being sort of soft and small, but they're so packed in and hard when Marlon's trying to escape.
Griffin
But anyway, the taste buds being so pronounced that the fish can hang on to them.
Rebecca Alter
That part I do not like. Marlin rubbing up on the taste bud.
Griffin
And also the water coming, like, as flowing against the.
Rebecca Alter
Where the whale is swimming. It's so interesting.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
Whales are crazy, them having this fight where marlin's, like, really reaching a breaking point with Dory of being like. You keep thinking you can do. You know, you can speak to whales, you can read, you can do all this. And meanwhile, it's just the whale approaching them so slowly.
Rebecca Alter
Right. And because of the weird perspective and lighting and all the tricks in the water, she's going like, hey, little fella.
Griffin
I don't think that's a little fella.
Rebecca Alter
That's Payakan.
Griffin
Yeah, that's Payakan.
Rebecca Alter
He is such a Payakan because he is helping them.
Griffin
It's interesting that way of water inverts what you're talking about, where the villains go inside the whale and do something
David
terrible, take their immortality juices.
Rebecca Alter
Well, that's a lesson. Whales are something grander and more sacred than us, and we. We can't be trying to mess with it.
David
True.
Griffin
I do like that the whale basically becomes a location. Right. That it's like where they have a
David
friend and they talk it up. But I like Becca's thing of, like.
Griffin
Right.
David
Also, this kind of. They're passing through a siege perilous here. The biblical thing that they are transformed by being expelled from the Whale, Right.
Griffin
And it's much like Nemo's character growth happening in him. Listening to Nigel's story, like, just really elegant show. Don't tell stuff through action. It's just such a fucking perfect piece of screenwriting. When Marlin is yelling at Dory, right. For trying to come up with a solution for how to save themselves.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
And he's just saying no to everything she's fucking doing. And then he finally breaks and says my favorite line. You think you can do these things, but you just can't, Nemo. And. And what I love about it is you see the shock on her face, the reaction of why he called me Nemo. She can't quite comprehend it. But then it cuts back to him, and he looks so fucking embarrassed. Like he realizes what he just.
David
Dory.
Griffin
Yes. That. Well, that's.
Rebecca Alter
She's like, who's Nemo? I thought your kid is Harpo. Chico.
Griffin
Fabio. Fabio, yes. But that he, like, he gets it the second it comes out of his mouth. What?
David
Harpo just laughing about Dory.
Griffin
It's another classic comedy thing. Anytime she confidently says the wrong name and he just has to go, nemo. He just has to correct her so fast.
Rebecca Alter
So Nemo is a very fun word to say. It's awesome that it said like a trillion times in this movie. It's a really good, cute, fun name.
Griffin
There's a part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently I know what funny is. Funny bought me a house. But I also know what isn't funny.
David
Ocd.
Griffin
I've lived with OCD my entire life, and people throw the term around like it's no big deal. But OCD is severe, often debilitating.
Rebecca Alter
Debilitating?
Griffin
It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented, unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but for ocd, it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about NOCD. NOCD is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. Their license therapists specialize in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to nocd.com to book a free 15 minute call.
David
They are here to help. Of course, Nemo himself escapes all by himself. Like, you know, Marlon does not rescue Nemo, right? He's there for Nemo when he comes out of the, you know, into the harbor Right out of the sink.
Griffin
But also, Dory is correct. Like, Dory gets them out of the fucking.
Rebecca Alter
Dory's been talking to the whale this whole time. Whales don't speak. And I think whales don't speak the same language as all the other fish because they're, again, like the Tulkun, sort of like on this elevated plane of intelligence. The same way that we can't speak the same language of whales. But whales do have language.
Griffin
Yes.
Rebecca Alter
So that's sort of what's happening here in my mind. She's communicating with the whale. The whale is like, you need to do the counterintuitive thing, which is fall down into my throat so that I could then blow you out. I've driven you to Sydney. I'm dropping you off.
Griffin
Which is also what teaches Marlin to trust Nemo in Nemo's escape, that she's doing the counterintuitive thing. Why would you go deeper into the whale? And Nemo, similarly, is not trying to swim up out of the net.
David
No, he's got to swim down. That's how we're going to escape this thing.
Rebecca Alter
She learns about swimming down also because. Yeah, when. When the fish have to get scooped out, usually to be sent to their doom at the hands of Darla. It's in a little net, and if a lot of them are in the net, they can break it.
David
And Nemo, you know, the big transformation is he knows what to do. He persuades Marlon to let him do it. Marlon lets him do it. Marlon has the wherewithal to let him do it. And they escape.
Griffin
It's the story thing. I like, love across the Toy Story movies. That also feels very influenced by Indiana Jones, where you set out, like, here's the clear plan. This is what needs to happen, and the order of actions that will get us to the other side of this thing. And then immediately, shit goes wrong and your characters have to improvise. But it's like a heist movie where you're so trained into how this is supposed to go that it's exciting every time they have to veer off of the planet, man. And the movie is telegraphing the all drains lean to the ocean thing so loudly throughout as, like, if they can just get there, then they're in the clear, they're safe.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
It is a thing that Pixar people have talked about that there were a lot of incidents after this movie came out of kids flushing, right fish down the toys.
David
Like they're not gonna. Because they thought they're not making it to the harbor. B.
Griffin
They thought that was the humanitarian act.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, no.
Griffin
Fish sales went way up after this movie, of course. And, like, aquarium attendance, I feel like permanently went up after this movie.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, yeah.
Griffin
But there was a lot of kids trying to free fish by. By flushing them down.
Rebecca Alter
I do think there's a very beautiful of its time, sort of Y2K frutiger arrow, vivid blue and orange. Like, aesthetic to the whole thing. That feels like it was.
David
Those are the two colors. Let's get Gomez.
Griffin
I also like calling this frutiger.
Rebecca Alter
Is that how you say it? Frutiger? Aero. Sure. Do you know what I'm talking about?
David
Yes, I know what you're talking about.
Rebecca Alter
Like that one windows background.
Griffin
Yeah. Also a little fruitopia.
David
I miss it.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, Fruitopia I miss. That is like Crush and squirt vibe.
David
Yes, that's true. I miss my, like, Windows 98. Bring it back, bring it back, bring it back.
Rebecca Alter
Also, a good reason for them to be clownfish is the blue orange. Contrast is the best. Contrast. Contrast.
Griffin
So did you know if you ate
David
a clownfish that it would be gross because they're covered in a special mucus to protect them from the anemones that they live in. All right, kid. Don't knock yourself out. No. And then. Then we're done. Like, I mean, right?
Griffin
Like it's like we skipped over.
Rebecca Alter
Right. You think you're in the clear when
Griffin
he escapes, but the tank gets super dirty.
David
Yeah, sure.
Griffin
Austin Pendleton's freaking the out. Can't you see that we're all surrounded by which they cut him off.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. She goes, shh. Because the dentist is coming in. And he takes his Reader's Digest into the bathroom. Oh, yeah. Is that when that happens or.
Griffin
Yes. Yes. And the kid in the waiting room is reading the Incredibles comic. I don't know if you noticed that.
Rebecca Alter
And there's a little Buzz Lightyear in the toy chest.
Griffin
Yeah. But the thing they didn't account for is that he would just buy some new high tech cleaner and install it while they were sleeping.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
That he doesn't need to take that out. Or he took them out, but put them back in really quickly. So they wake up, the tank is clean. All hope is lost. Right. Does not know that Dory and Marlon have gotten so close.
Rebecca Alter
And today is the day that Darla is coming, and she's gonna take Nemo and shake him until he dies.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
You know, she even gets her hands on him. I mean, she's got him for a second.
Rebecca Alter
She gives him a hearty shake. Yeah, she's like, the opposite. I think a lot of, like, the depiction of Australia in this was just this. And, you know, Kangaroo Jack were, like, my only exposure to Australia in, you know, the first decade of life. And it so goes against the lovely, intelligent children of Bluey. Darla makes it seem like the children of Australia are monsters.
David
I do think it's vital in Bluey that Bluey is a relatively obnoxious child.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, but she's not. Like, Darla is like, oh, no, Darla's much worse.
David
But I mean, like, I mean, I just wait.
Rebecca Alter
At one point, someone, a character with an Australian attitude accent, calls Dory Bluey at one point.
David
Well, she is blue.
Griffin
She is blue.
David
But, you know, in Bluey, like, one of my favorite episodes of Bluey, a hugely controversial episode, is the one where Ellen comes out. The puppy episode. They're all puppy episodes of Blue is the one where Bingo, you know, first they both turn into Blueys, right? Bingo turns into Bluey. Like, Bingo paints herself blue.
Rebecca Alter
I don't know about this.
David
It's so good. It's called mini Bluey.
Griffin
He's a controversial.
David
I'll tell you in one second. So Bingo turns herself into Bluey, and Bluey's like, this is what it's like if you're Bluey. And essentially, it's like, you need to be more obnoxious. Like, you are not, like, you are the good sister. I'm the more annoying sister, blah, blah, blah. Don't listen to dad when he tells you to do something, right? Ignore people. Be a little bossy. Make weird noises, yada, yada. And they do that for a while. And then Bluey's like, this is boring. How about I be Bingo? And so they both turn into Bingo, right? They Bluey pain. And then, you know, they're being nice and helpful, and the dad goes, this rocks. Result. This is great.
Griffin
You're making my life easier.
David
Like, Bluey gets upset, and they, you know, they have to resolve, like, the, you know, the, you know, Bingo's like, I'm also annoying. Like, Bingo helps me.
Rebecca Alter
Bingo is a much sweeter kid.
David
But, like, Bingo's an asset. Like, of course. Like, they think that. But, like, I'm also annoying and weird and demonstrates how. But then the episode does end with the dad being like, but it did kind of rock when she was being Bingo, right? And a lot of fans don't like it because it's like, it's not an example of amazing parenting. Like, the dad never really apologizes.
Rebecca Alter
Can't be the. These perfect parents all the time.
David
That's why I love it.
Rebecca Alter
The issue with the Bluey parents is they're too perfect. So we need these moments anyway.
Griffin
Where.
Rebecca Alter
Where are we in this?
Griffin
Here's the thing. I like in the movie and I like this. Just when movies can give me this feeling where you feel like it's wrapping up and you're like, it's a shame. I've been having fun. I guess if it's time to end, it's time to end. But I could watch some more of this. And there's basically a fake out denouement. Right. Like Darla's here ticking clock, it's coming to a head. Marlon and Dorry have made it like
Rebecca Alter
basically right in Nigel's mouth. Which was another moment of learning to trust. Because he's like, you need to hop
Griffin
in my mouth for me to simplified. This is the only thing the other pelican needs to accomplish is just being a basically non speaking rival for like a.
Rebecca Alter
They're all like lads who are perched above a fish and chips stand.
Griffin
We also need to call out the mind sequels who we haven't even talked about yet.
Rebecca Alter
Right. Which were also. You say Bruce is a breakout. So the seagulls were huge.
Griffin
Humongous.
David
Yeah. Seagull. Mine, mine, mine. It's very funny.
Griffin
It's just another really good identification of like what do seagulls feel like to us when we see them?
Rebecca Alter
Right, yeah. So. And also Nemo's playing dead.
Griffin
Yes.
Rebecca Alter
That's a.
Griffin
Right.
Rebecca Alter
So that he'll get flushed down the toilet. And that's what Marlin and Dory come in on.
Griffin
So they think the dentist is scooping him to give to Darlie. Gil's final advice is to play dead.
Rebecca Alter
Yep.
Griffin
He wants to get to the drain. But yes, there's like this tension of Nigel getting Marlin Dory to the window. They make it there just in time to see what they think is Nemo dead on the counter. So they give up. Nemo wakes up Gill recognizes the panic of this moment and does what is potentially the sacrifice of load me into the volcano. Know another thing we've set up in the movie that doesn't feel like it's going to be a sort of mechanic for action.
Rebecca Alter
Right. It was just sort of a fun gag that they could make the volcano speak.
Griffin
Right. That's just part of the ritual. But then we've shown that like it's not actually dangerous. But of course, yes, you could launch yourself from that.
Rebecca Alter
So they all work together and they launch Gil over to the dentist tool tray.
Griffin
Right. Who uses basically, the tools to break Nemo's bag to be able to let Nemo flip into the drain of the dentist. Bitsync. But it's too late in the sense that Marlon and Dory think it's too late.
Rebecca Alter
Right.
David
They think he's.
Rebecca Alter
So Nemo is flushed to sea, and Marlin and Dory are back in the ocean. And Nigel also thinks Nemo's gone. And it's like, I'm sorry.
Griffin
I'm sorry. I truly am his second. I'm sorry. Truly am. Really gets to me, the gravity of it. Yeah. And then he just fucking flies away. And Marlon has his lowest moment of just, like. I mean, genuine grief.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. He's crossed the ocean. He came so close. His son is dead, and he's like, dory, we're going our separate ways.
Griffin
He's not even angry at Dory at this point. But it's just like, I. It's over. It's fucking over.
Rebecca Alter
She gets the beautiful thing about, like, I don't want to keep forgetting when I'm with you, with this relationship, I'm able to remember. And he's like, I don't want to
Griffin
remember when I'm with you, I'm home.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
Yeah. She makes her big plea, and it falls on deaf ears because he's just going through too fucking much, which leaves her alone. This is where you're like, I felt like the movie was about to end, but now they're all split up again. Where's the movie even going? What moves? Does it still even have? And it's.
Rebecca Alter
Oh.
Griffin
Nemo can bump into Dory, and Dory cannot understand what that means.
Rebecca Alter
Y. Yeah, that's so. At first, Nemo, very sweetly, is like, oh, like, are you lost?
Griffin
Yeah, right, right.
Rebecca Alter
Very cute. He sees he's just escaped from, like, the most perilous situation ever. He's seen more than any little baby
Griffin
fish should, but he wants to take care of her.
Rebecca Alter
He wants to. He's immediately like, okay, like, I'll help you. He sees she's in distress, Right.
Griffin
And once again, like, if Marlin had listened to Dory's plea, he would have been reunited with his son in five minutes.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
Right.
Rebecca Alter
So Marlon goes away. There's these crabs who are fun.
Griffin
Dory does. You have the moment of, like, Nemo. That's a nice name.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. Oh, really funny.
Griffin
Yeah. Perfectly played.
Rebecca Alter
And then what is it that helps her remember again?
David
It's like a flashback.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
But what triggers. What triggers the P. Sherman 42 Wallaby Way, Sydney. Because she has the moment where it all comes flooding back. Her, like, Keyser Soze moment. I'm trying to remember what the verbal trigger is.
David
I don't remember.
Rebecca Alter
Okay, well, so the fact that we're
Griffin
getting is very metal.
Rebecca Alter
No, it's metatextual. That we don't remember. And it will come to us in a flashback, and it'll be, like a parallel and whatever. So that happens. She remembers. And they need to find Marlon.
Griffin
Yeah. Right. And Marlon's just sort of following the school of fish.
Rebecca Alter
Right.
Griffin
I mean, you could argue he's borderline suicidal at this moment.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. So there's this big school of fish, and they're all like, hey, watch where you're going. They're, like, really dour. He's sort of caught up in that. They briefly reunite.
Griffin
It's the pipe. I'm sorry? It's the pipe where the crabs are looking to catch the fish. And it says Sidney on it.
Rebecca Alter
Oh.
Griffin
Sees that? She reads it. And P. Sherman, 42 Wally by Sydney comes back to her.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. And then she's like, oh, Nemo. And she's hugging him with her little fins. There's this big school of fish, and
Griffin
I'm sorry, but just incredible. Ellen DeGeneres, line delivery. She does her similar, like, seven thoughts in one sentence. We thought you were dead, and you're not. And your father. Your father. She has her one kind of scolding.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. While she's, like, squishing his face. It's really cute.
David
She's really cute.
Rebecca Alter
But we see this school of fish where they've just reunited. Up above on the shore, there's a fishing trawler that's going.
David
Yeah, this is. Right. The net.
Rebecca Alter
Right. It's going to drop a big net and scoop up all of these fish.
Griffin
Yeah. And Nemo's the only one who can basically save everybody.
Rebecca Alter
Right. Oh, no. Cause Dory gets caught up in it. And Marlin is now. Even though he just. He. He realizes his mistake from abandoning Dory, he's not gonna lose her again. So it's like, we need to get her out of there and free all the fish. Nemo goes inside, and Marlin has just got his son back. And he's like, you cannot do this. But then it's like, this is going to work.
Griffin
You need to trust me to.
Rebecca Alter
I know that you can.
Griffin
Yeah. And it's. You've already had their moment of reunion. So it's. What's impactful is that Marlon has just gotten him back, and he so quickly Accepts that he needs to trust him and let him go for another moment.
Rebecca Alter
Yep. So he schools all the fish.
David
So true.
Griffin
This. Yes.
Rebecca Alter
Swim down.
Griffin
This is based on a real event.
David
Yes.
Griffin
That Stanton read about in the news.
David
There was some event where school of fish seem to somehow figure out how to beat a net.
Griffin
To break the net.
David
Right.
Griffin
Which is another great. Like, oh, shit. If you're telling me that happened for real.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
David
Or at least someone claims it.
Griffin
Yeah, yeah.
David
Movie's over, right? I mean, like, then we end up back at the school and all that.
Griffin
Excuse me. My opening quote, another moment that makes me cry where he's looking at Nemo who has succeeded in freeing all the fish, but he's lying kind of knocked out at the bottom of the ocean floor. At least this tier of the ocean floor, right?
David
Oh, yeah.
Rebecca Alter
This, this.
Griffin
And you have the mirroring of him going to Nemo and cradling him like the egg. And then to console him as he's like half awake, you know.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
He tells him the Sandy Plankton thing, right?
David
Yeah. It's a lovely moment. To me, the lovely moment is when he gets information.
Griffin
When he gets the what?
David
When he. When he's like, how old are you? And crush goes 150. Dude. Like, that just makes me cry.
Rebecca Alter
But see, I.
David
It's so beautiful. The payoff's good too.
Rebecca Alter
But both are.
Griffin
Both are incredible.
Rebecca Alter
Both are so sweet.
Griffin
But the fact that he's able to tell him that and that he knows that and that he understands the value of having experiences and learning things for yourself. And that's what he like yells at Nemo about, which is so funny. His genuine frustration of why do you still give a About Sandy Plankton.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
Is both very funny and very Albert
Rebecca Alter
Brooks saying the name Sandy Plankton. Him two very important spongebob characters.
Griffin
Yes. Good call.
Rebecca Alter
He just delivers it in a really funny way.
Griffin
And then. And then you cut forward basically to their new found family back at the anatomy.
David
And now it's there.
Rebecca Alter
Marlin jumping on Nemo because he's excited for him to go to school.
David
There's also mid credits scene where the tank. That the Tank gang does escape. Which is fine.
Griffin
Yes.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, and Squirt's an exchange student now.
David
Oh, that's right. Hey, man.
Rebecca Alter
Best.
David
I just want to say this right now, but okay.
Griffin
It was part of the reason why I was so concerned when they announced they were even making a sequel. Y is this movie does end just perfectly.
David
It does. But it's not like the Monsters Inc. Ending where you're Like, I truly don't know what you do.
Griffin
No.
David
Finding Nemo does end with, like, they live in the ocean and are friends. They could have another adventure. Adventure.
Griffin
It's Nemo swimming back to hug him and say, I love you, and then swimming off and Marlin saying, I love you too, son. At a distance. You know that? He says it to himself kind of.
David
Yeah, it's good.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
He says, go have an adventure. And Nemo says, okay, but the last
Griffin
line is, yeah, I love you too.
Rebecca Alter
Right before Nemo got stuff. Right before Nemo got taken away, he said, I hate you.
Griffin
Exactly.
Rebecca Alter
With hit. Like, full force.
David
I. Guys, I hear you. I love this movie. I will say it does not quite activate my parent buttons in the way you guys seem to be disinterested. But, like, not in, like, a way where I'm immune to it.
Rebecca Alter
But does it activate your child of a parent button? Is it more like the opposite identification?
David
I just like it because it's about fish and Dory's so funny.
Rebecca Alter
It's pretty awesome.
David
But I think all of the stuff you're saying is very well done. Like, I'm not. You know, but it doesn't. It does. This movie doesn't. Like, I'm, like.
Rebecca Alter
It's about.
Griffin
Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
How secure attachment styles are formed.
Griffin
Yes.
Rebecca Alter
In the crucial early years of life.
Griffin
Yes. I also need to correct myself. He does the swim back. Love you. But then he just says, bye, dad. While on Mr. Ray yelled at at a distance. And then Marlon says, bye, son, very quietly to himself. Right. The end. Beautiful. Fucking Robbie Williams. Beyond the sea.
David
Oh, yeah. Fuck. Obviously, famously, if you see this movie, what's the. What's the language where the end is? Sloot.
Rebecca Alter
What?
Griffin
What?
Rebecca Alter
So there's a language, right, that it comes up on the screen. It just says slut.
David
And that became an old, like, Twitter, YouTube of, like, the end of YouTube. But then it just goes slut.
Rebecca Alter
Well, then wouldn't that happen in, like, a hundred movies?
David
Yes, but it's just especially funny. And Nemo. Also, most movies don't say the end at the end anymore. It's Swedish. It's Swedish.
Rebecca Alter
That. That is awesome.
David
I will find it now.
Griffin
Do you know, speaking of languages, this is only the second movie ever that was dubbed into Navajo.
David
That's amazing.
Rebecca Alter
Whoa.
David
Here we go. See, here's the ending.
Griffin
Water looking at the shot, you know, and that just. It does just say slug. In fact, it does just say slug.
David
Best support actress of 2003. Here were the Oscar nominees. I want to say this right now. The nominees were Renee Zwogger for Cold Mountain one Unbelievable. Yeah. Shore Agadash Lou for House of sand and Fog. Lovely nomination. Mediocre movie. Patricia Clarkson for Pieces of April. Better in the Station Agent but still pretty good.
Griffin
Yeah, that's a weird one where that movie. It was a combo doesn't exist, but there was a moment of, hey, Patricia Clarkson.
David
Good.
Griffin
She has two great performances this year. Let's give her a lifetime.
David
Kind of you pick in the Pieces of April. She has cancer or whatever. It's a little more.
Griffin
But a totally forgotten movie that she's forgotten.
David
Yes, she's good. Marden and Mystic River. Kind of an odd nom. Not bad in it.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Holly Hunter in 13. A very good performance because she's a good actor in a very sort of over rob movie.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Ellen DeGeneres is better than all of those performances. Like, by far. Like, it's not even a question.
Griffin
Did BAFTA nominate her? I know they nominated. Nominated Murphy.
David
I think they flirted with it, but like, she might have made a long list or something. She got a couple of, like she won the Saturn, but the Saturns are, you know, a little. She got a couple of critics award, you know, like Chicago nominated award.
Griffin
A lot of critics saying, like, this is the time to finally do this.
David
And this is what I want to say.
Rebecca Alter
This still has not happened.
Griffin
It still has not happened.
David
A vocal performance. No, it's not.
Rebecca Alter
There are very few that are at. At the level that deserve it.
David
It is the kind of transformative performance that I think the Oscars. Especially when you hear those five. Five names.
Griffin
Yes.
David
No offense to them.
Rebecca Alter
No.
Griffin
But that's like a good actors all
Rebecca Alter
the time, right?
Griffin
Yeah, yeah. That was also a big thing.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, but that's also like motion.
David
Like we did get a. The Oscar for animated film. Obviously it was nominated for screenplay, sound and music, I think.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, the music. The score is a great Scott.
David
It's Newman's best score.
Griffin
I was going to ask you because I know sometimes you can be a little snarky about Newman.
David
He has a thing that he does.
Griffin
Yes.
David
And I enjoy the thing that he does. But I do feel that he, you know, you kind of know what you're getting with a Newman score.
Griffin
I think this is his best score. I agree with you. It is a secret power of this movie. Just that it. Even though he and Randy Newman are part of the same lineage, that all the Pixar movies musically sounded so similar and this one starts so differently. And when you hear the opening strains of the Thomas Newman Score over the. The anemone house hunting scene at the beginning. You're immediately like, oh, Thomas Newman's whole thing he does all the time. Sounds like the ocean.
David
It does.
Griffin
There is no better fit for his style.
David
It's 100% than this. Obviously Lord of the Rings won that year and that is very, very, very good music.
Griffin
But Howard Shore already won. He won for fellowship.
David
But you have to give it to him for return. It has the beacon lighting. It has the most bravura shit he ever did.
Griffin
Did they didn't give it to him for two towers? No, they didn't give one and 02.
David
Let's find out.
Griffin
Because also the hours.
David
Let's travel through time.
Griffin
I keep being corrected that the hours didn't win.
David
No, no, no, no, no, no. Write that because that's the Frida year golden from glass.
Griffin
Interesting. I think this is incredible year because
David
catch me if you can is also nominated the wonderful Elmer Bernstein score for Far from Heaven and Thomas Newman's very nice Road to British score.
Griffin
I. I love that score.
David
Very nice.
Griffin
But this feels like a real they themselves by not giving it to Thomas Newman the year where it made the most sense. And now they're just constantly living in the shadow of how many nominations they've given him. Yes. And the idea that he's maybe never going to have a moment as clear cut as this one.
David
Again, I wonder.
Griffin
Score's incredible. Script's incredible. I. I feel. And I feel like this is the point you're making.
David
What was that?
Griffin
Even with the anti animation stigmas, this is a year where Wall E becomes a breaking point in 2008. We'll talk about in that episode that as much as Dark Knight, I would argue leads to the expansion of 10.
David
It was part and parcel.
Griffin
But this is a year where people were really like, do we have to nominate Finding Nemo? And it felt like the conversation couldn't get traction. Even though everyone sort of sensed like. Like this feels as important as Beauty and the Beast and sort of signaling a change in the industry on top of it being such a seismic success in a year without Lord of the Rings where you didn't have a more obvious blockbuster film. Maybe this would have gotten in. But even with the anti voice actor prejudice, I feel like fucking Ellen DeGeneres was like seven or eight on the list.
David
Might have been.
Griffin
And part of that's just how weird and kind of weak that supporting actress field was. Was. But you're right, it does feel egregious that she couldn't beat any of those five, I agree.
David
I was transitioning. But then I wanted to interject quickly. I never saw this movie before.
Rebecca Alter
What?
Griffin
That's insane.
Rebecca Alter
I knew when I was talking.
David
It's true.
Griffin
It is the wettest film. When I was talking about how adults would go see this film, you were giving me a look like you were holding something back.
David
Yeah. It's so sweet.
Griffin
I loved it.
David
I guess it makes sense that you weren't in the market for Finding Nemo at the time.
Griffin
You were. You were just enough older than us. And you've also talked about your sort of like, teenage. Like the mainstream.
David
I only saw it because I was like a nerdy film fan. Like. Like. Right. I had no reason to see it otherwise. 2003, that summer is when I graduated from high school. Pretty cool. Now, I will say I'm somewhat similar to Dory, because at that point I had already really, really dove headfirst into a lifestyle that has led to memory loss.
Griffin
Ben has written this out. He's reading from a prepared statement. I'm not making fun of you for that. I just think you're. I want people to know the level of intentionality with which you're speaking right now.
David
But I think it's. It's long. Long term memory.
Griffin
Oh, sure.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
The short term stuff. You remember the bits.
David
But we should, I think, think introduce the podcast.
Griffin
Oh, sure. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin Swish.
David
I want to point out, as I'm sure Griffin, you already know, that every Pixar movie before this one had come out in November. That was the Pixar spot.
Griffin
Yep.
David
And originally this was planned for November 2, but possibly because of sort of the aesthetic of the movie. Right. Summer vibe of it, they're like, no, me 30th.
Griffin
There are also a couple other things that factor into that. Right. One is, I think they didn't want to. This not getting stuck in a rut thing we talked about. The other thing that's happening around this time is Lasseter goes out and poaches Brad Bird, who now is sort of orphaned after Warner Brothers animation has collapsed. And part of that was, we're worried about repeating ourselves. We need to get someone else in to shake this up and change the past pattern. And they talk about a little bit like Lilo and Stitch being seen as the. The secondary film, redheaded Stepchild. Or while Treasure Planet was the main focus, that everyone was so fucking amped up about Incredibles. And it was like, we got Brad Bird. He's a genius. The Script is perfect. We're making an action film. It's a little bit older, that Nemo's sort of slipping through the cracks a little bit is seen as less exciting and less sexy. But there's also this thing that Disney is sort of pushing on par Pixar, which is if the movie comes out in May, we can sell merchandise in May, have the home video release come out around Thanksgiving, make it the number one Christmas gift, and do a second wave of merchandise in December, which basically Eisner pushes on them as, like, it's big to be a holiday film. But now that we know that Pixar's basically a proven brand and the movie's gonna hit no matter what, what, we'll make more money on these characters. If you release earlier and most of the Pixar movies swing to summer after this, famously, what were you going to say?
David
No, what were you going to say? Famously, What?
Griffin
There's the original Pixar deal after Toy Story, where they sign them up for five films. There'll be an autonomous company, but Disney has distribution rights and will own the characters in perpetuity. And those five films are supposed to be Monsters, Inc. Nemo, Incredibles, Cars and A Bug's Life. I forgot the first one. Chronologically, where they get fucked on this deal is they said sequels don't count. We want you to make Toy Story 2 right away. But sequels don't count. That's going direct to video. When they up it to theaters, Lasseter goes, so that's one of our five films. And Eisner goes, no, we get that for free because it was meant for video.
David
What a jerk.
Griffin
That leads to the tensions between Pixar and Disney that made people think straight up, when they're done with the fifth film, which is going to be Cars, they're going to leave. Every film was more successful than the previous film. They kept outgrossing themselves. And everyone around Eisner at Disney was like, you got to do what you. Anything you can do to make good with Pixar now, because we can't lose them. Right? And what Eisner kept saying was, they're going to fail. At some point, one of these movies is going to flop, and then we're going to own their assets because they're not going to have negotiating leverage. And he was really confident that Nemo was the one.
David
Well, he was wrong.
Griffin
He kept saying to people, this one's not as commercial. Fish aren't going to sell as much merchandise, even if it's just down a little. Bit they're weaker and they'll come begging us.
David
Their biggest hit.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
And that basically like puts the death knell on Eisner. It's a big part of why he's pushed out of the company that he fucks that up with his arrogance. And that's a little bit I think why they wanted to go to some summer to see like if I I whatever. But the other part of the story is that it was seen as the secondary film. No one was confident about it. There are these big fucking like Cinemacon and licensing, you know, conventions where they have to go and sell these movies years in advance in order to get people on board with them for merchandise and for, you know, the theater partners and whatever. And there was one of these where they didn't have enough footage to show or it wasn't in a good enough state. And the movie had a bit of a stink around it because Eisner kept shit talking it and they need to go combat it. And they sent Andrew Stanton out and he basically performed the movie for 40 minutes similar to the pitch that he did for Lassiter. And everyone walks out of that being like, that's the fucking biggest hit that that shit. The way he told the story and did all the voices and the emotions and everything.
Rebecca Alter
It's like Nigel telling the story to Nemo, truly.
Griffin
And you can see it on, it's on the DVD and the Blu ray and the fucking itunes extras. There's like a super cut of the moments of him doing that. But he basically just kind of willed this movie into not being totally disregarded because Disney kept trying to like slide it over. And anyone who was engaging with it was like, it feels like this thing has the juice.
David
It opens to $70 million. Two biggest hit their career in their time so far. Monsters Inc. To 62 ends at 339 domestic 871 worldwide. It's made more now with re releases and stuff.
Griffin
The 3D re release which Stan oversaw is what convinced him to finally do Finding Dory. But it also added basically another $100 million to the gross.
David
Convinced finding. We'll talk about it's number one at the box office on May 30th. Number two is the film that was number one the week before. For no Matrix has been out for I think three plus weeks.
Griffin
Okay, let me go through May in my head. So the, the opening movie of the summer is X2X Men United.
David
That is number seven.
Griffin
Then Matrix comes out the following weekend.
David
Matrix Reloaded is number four. And no, I Think there's two weeks between them.
Griffin
Okay. And then the next May, blockbuster, huge comedy. Oh, oh, it's Bruce Almighty.
David
Got a yo, yo. That's the earth.
Griffin
Like also open to 70 million.
David
Huge, huge hit.
Griffin
This month was through.
David
America was at just doing great.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Movies were doing great. America was actually doing horribly.
Griffin
You basically had four consecutive $70 million opening weekends.
David
I remember it so well. It was my IMDb Pro era. My mom got a subscription for work.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
And so I had it. And I had such good box office imagery and stuff.
Griffin
And like. Yeah.
David
I just remember, like, Bruce, terrible movie.
Griffin
Yeah, Awful.
David
It's a bad movie.
Griffin
But it was the biggest comedy opening weekend of all time. Matrix had a five day, so it's three day was a little smaller, but it opened over 100 if you count the five day. Nemo's the biggest animation opening in history. X Men was the biggest superhero opening. Yeah.
David
You got pirates coming down the pike later summer.
Rebecca Alter
Hell yeah.
Griffin
Oh, those crazy Bad Boys 2.
David
Bad Boys 2. Terminator 3.
Griffin
Yeah.
David
But yeah, number three at the box office opening against Nemo. Slightly underwhelming in its opening, but I think it kind of legged out a pretty good gross.
Griffin
Italian Job.
David
It's Mark Wahlberg and Charlize Theron in
Griffin
the Italian was a sleeper. It made it to 100 in my memory.
David
It's pretty fun.
Griffin
It's fun.
David
I've not seen it in 20 years.
Griffin
It looked like dog, and everyone was like, why would they remake this? And then it kind of was a
David
word seen as kind of like a national crime.
Griffin
This is offensive. Yeah.
David
It was like you're making one of our things.
Griffin
You already did get. Carter, why are you kicking us even further?
David
I find the British obsession with the Italian Job a little insane. Like, that movie is basically boring until the end, which does rock.
Griffin
Okay.
David
The stuff with the Minis is great. That's mostly not the movie interesting, but it's pretty fun. Do you like the Italian Job with Mark Wahlberg and Andrew Norton and Charlize Theron and Mos Def and whoever else?
Rebecca Alter
Can't say I've ever seen it. I remember it being huge. And back when Canada's Wonderland was Paramount. Canada's Wonderland, there was an Italian Job coaster where you were riding in the Mini Cooper.
Griffin
David. Canada's Wonderland, a theme park that used to be Paramount branded and is not anymore, has like 10 rides that are all clearly connected to Paramount movies, but they lost the license and now they're just generic.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. So Top Gun is now like Flight deck.
Griffin
Right. And the Italian Job one is called, like, stunt track or something.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
And Tomb Raider is called, like, Temple Explorer.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
There was a Wayne's World coaster at one point called the Hurlanata.
Rebecca Alter
Okay. That I don't know about.
Griffin
That's awesome. Yeah. I'm trying to think what the other ones are, but that park is very funny for that reason.
David
Yeah. The Italian Job, like, the.
Rebecca Alter
The backlot stunt coaster, big icon of the park, instead of like, the Disney Castle, is like the Paramount Mountain.
Griffin
And now they're just like, it's a mountain. But yes, the Italian Job roller coaster still has Mini Coopers. And they're like, it's just one of those chase sequences from any Hollywood movie.
David
Yeah, I see it right here. Well, you're not going to change him.
Griffin
No.
David
Number five at the box office is a film you've seen many times. Many, many, many times.
Griffin
It's specifically one of my movies.
David
You don't like it, but you've seen it. Maybe you like it. You don't love it.
Griffin
I don't love it, but I've.
David
Your. Your sister loved this.
Griffin
I. I do think this movie is very good. This is way up on the list of the movies I have seen most in my life because my. My sister, Romuly, past and future guest, longtime sister, was not a kid who obsessively watched the same thing over and over again. Other than this one film, which for seven years was in constant rotation, is Eddie Murphy's Daddy Daycare. Daddy Daycare.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, yeah, we've spoken about this, because this was a similar thing where it's like, I was watching this genuinely every single weekend at my friend's house. It's like, we're gonna have a sleepover.
Griffin
It's dare.
Rebecca Alter
We're gonna watch Daddy Daycare.
Griffin
I think Daddy Daycare is very funny, but I. It could be Stockholm syndrome. It is a movie I will defend as like, no, that one's actually well written and it has a good cast. But also, I've seen it so many times that if I didn't find it funny, I. I wouldn't have been able to survive.
David
Number six, opening this weekend new, is my favorite Eliza Dushku horror franchise, Wrong Turn, which Wikipedia calls the first installment in the Wrong Turn series. It's like, let's relax.
Griffin
What's your second favorite Eliza Dushku horror franchise?
David
Out of curiosity, all those other ones she's done. I do love Dushku, though. Who doesn't love a little Douchku?
Griffin
Yeah, douchebag it up.
David
Number seven is, are you a Douchebag.
Griffin
What do you say you self identify as Douchebag? Yeah.
David
Number seven is X2. Number eight is the in laws. So that's with Albert Brooks, right?
Griffin
Bombing at the same time.
David
Big bomb.
Griffin
Well, huge bomb.
David
Number nine is another bomb, but a great film. Down with love.
Rebecca Alter
Love.
David
And number 10 is probably the most important cultural text of 2003. The Lizzy Maguire movie.
Griffin
Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, my God.
Griffin
Made the mistake of opening against X.
Rebecca Alter
What a summer that was. The summer of the Lizzie McGuire movie.
Griffin
Hey now. Hey now. This is what dreams are made of.
David
The only risk in taking.
Rebecca Alter
Sing for me, Paolo.
David
An adventure is not taking it at all.
Rebecca Alter
I have a very defining, sort of defining Nemo message.
Griffin
A real kind of defining memory of all the girls in my grade going to see Lizzie McGuire movie that Friday, opening day, same day that X2X Men United came came out. And the girls were angry that none of the boys wanted to go see Lizzie McGuire. And I quite a big fan of the X Men. And I remember the girls in my grade basically being like, if you come see the Lizzie McGuire Movie with us, someone will make out with you.
David
Did anyone?
Griffin
No, I didn't go see it. Of course. I went to X2. X Men United.
David
X Men. The X Men are united in this film.
Griffin
I was like, I'm sorry, you don't understand what you're up against here. You have no leverage in this conversation.
David
Shoe was a pretty exciting day. That was pretty cool.
Griffin
I was like nightcrawlers in this one.
David
I know. And it was just kind of that thing of, like, the first one worked. So they're gonna get to be a little, like, more off the leash with this.
Griffin
I was like, you could promise me that Jessica Alba would make out with me and I wouldn't go see the Lizzie McGuire movies right now.
David
And herself.
Griffin
Can we talk about theme parks, please?
Rebecca Alter
So a couple of very important things. It was revolutionary at the time. Turtle Talk with Crush. So Epcot has an. The second largest research aquarium in the country is within epcot. It is something that Disney does not take enough advantage of. It's a wonderful little aquarium.
Griffin
And I think of interest to David was basically seen as on the chopping block in the early 2000s. All this educational, scientific shit is lame. We gotta get characters back in here.
Rebecca Alter
They have rescue manatees there. So they decided, I thought that they
Griffin
had a blockbuster fish movie saved all this shit.
Rebecca Alter
The Seas is now gonna be rebranded the Seas With Nemo and Friends. And one of the great attractions there is Turtle Tank Talk with Crush.
David
Yes, that's where I've seen videos of this.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. It's really.
Griffin
At the time, it was live puppeteering, basically. Like, we had an animated model that could do crowd work so the audience would be there.
David
It's like, your name's Griffin. Wow.
Griffin
They had cameras. They make jokes about the guy wearing the silly hat.
Rebecca Alter
It's so cohesive because you're looking at all these fish tanks at the aquarium. And then you go to one that's like a fish tank, but it's a screen and it's crush. And he makes jokes with all the kids. And it's fun. There's also a little ride where you're riding in shells and. And the characters from Nemo are being projected onto windows into the real tanks.
Griffin
But then there are also some sculptures and you're seeing real fish. It's like they kept using Nemo characters as the bait to get children to engage with real aquatic life.
Rebecca Alter
There's also. I don't want to talk about it because it sucks. But they reskinned at Disneyland the submarine voyage ride with Nemo stuff.
Griffin
I could not disagree more. This is one of my favorite attractions. Actions.
Rebecca Alter
I want to skip over that.
Griffin
It is one of my safe spaces.
David
It's now called Finding Nemo. Submarine voyage.
Rebecca Alter
Convince elevator pitch.
Griffin
You go into a submarine that is on tracks. They make you feel like it's free floating, but you are genuinely underwater. And then it is a technical marvel where you are going around in a loop. While the Thomas Newman score soothes my anxiety. And you see a combination of real fish and, like, incredible projection where it looks like real animation is happening outside the window of the submarine.
Rebecca Alter
I'm gonna be honest. You're selling me.
David
But what was lost?
Rebecca Alter
Nothing was lost. It was just already kind of like a dull experience. But you're right. Adding the IP onto it doesn't.
Griffin
Yeah, it was. It was more like.
Rebecca Alter
It's a unique ride mechanic.
Griffin
A big fake octopus attacks you and you have like a Jacques Cousteau style narrator just telling you about it.
Rebecca Alter
It's just funny because it's so. To most people, it would be very anxiety inducing. You're going into a small claustrophobic capsule and going underwater.
David
How many people are on the sub?
Rebecca Alter
No, it's a very slow moving line.
Griffin
Yeah. But it's. You all have your own seat. The seats face in opposite directions. Everyone has their own little hole they get to look at. I think I would find it anxiety provoking. Did it not have my good friends and the Thomas Newman score and the vibes and the Colors. Maybe that's why I like it so much.
David
It's 12 minutes.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
David
That seems very long.
Griffin
I love these rides that are just like.
David
I'm not anti.
Griffin
Shit's gonna slow down. You just get to stay seated. Nothing's gonna happen to your tummy. These are nice kind of refresh points in a theme park day of like. I can just vibe out here.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. And it's less overstimulating than like A Small World or something.
Griffin
Yes. I never skip it.
Rebecca Alter
The last thing I wanna bring up. Cause I think it is one of the greatest achievements of the 21st century at the theme parks. Which is at Animal Kingdom. Finding Nemo the Musical. I think this is a really, really significant piece of theme park entertainment.
David
The Big Blue and beyond.
Rebecca Alter
This is the reap. So a few years ago they were like, we need to cut down the runtime.
David
I'm looking so I understand the context.
Rebecca Alter
That's a bastardized version.
Griffin
40 minutes. Now it's like 20 minutes.
Rebecca Alter
This was the first time Disney worked with Robert and Kristen Lopez.
Griffin
This is what's interesting about this.
David
David.
Rebecca Alter
So. So they got them off of Avenue Q to be like, cheering.
Griffin
He's holding up big foam fingers.
David
And a pen sign is so far away. Ben.
Rebecca Alter
That the stage uses the vertical space for these underwater creatures.
Griffin
It's some Julie Taymor style. You see the puppeteers visibly. But the puppets are in different ways worked around their bodies.
Rebecca Alter
The Nigel puppet is incredible. The most impressive. Biggest thing I've ever. Outstanding. Outside of the King Kong musical. It's like that Nigel puppet is jaw dropping. And the song that they do for the Turtles is so good. It's like a Beach Boys type thing. And it's just awesome.
Griffin
I also think Not My dad is a great song.
Rebecca Alter
Debo's where's. Well, first it's where's my dad? And then it's not my dad. Right.
Griffin
When Nigel tries to tell him the
Rebecca Alter
story in the big blue world. Like, these songs are genuinely for theme park entertainment. It is an excellent family musical. I don't understand why they've never tried to do it.
Griffin
On a question. The Lopez is over delivered on a theme park which made Disney go like, oh, fuck, we gotta have these people work on everything. Which leads to obviously Frozen and Coco and all these other things.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
I have never understood why they've never attempted to transfer this to Broadway. Because even just like the visual approach, they cracked the code on how to make these characters work on stage. They cracked the puppets. The songs are good. I'm like, if you just doubled this length. And I'm sure they would just write more songs easily.
Rebecca Alter
Right. And there's so many good songs packed into it already.
Griffin
This thing would be a huge fucking hit. And instead of ever transferring it after like 15 years. Years, they were like, let's make it shorter.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah.
Griffin
And now it's like a 15 minute, like greatest hits abridged version.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. But I will never stop.
David
Is that just to move people through? Like, why abridge?
Rebecca Alter
Maybe kids attention spans nowadays. And also probably some equity thing with the performers. Like, this is a really. Especially Crush's song.
Griffin
Yeah.
Rebecca Alter
For a guy to be singing that, it's. It's tough on the vocal cords.
David
It looks like Crush's song is called Go with the Flow.
Rebecca Alter
It absolutely is.
Griffin
But David, theme parks love having shows like this that are successful because they're people eaters. They take pressure off the lines for the rides. If you can get someone to sit down for 40 minutes and if you can pack a house. And this was one of the few shows that people were like, this is actually good. It's not just kind of like a shitty restaging of, you know, there was the Al.
David
I know Becca has to go. I was going to say you guys could just keep going. I feel like you guys, for another.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, God, I really do need to go soon.
David
Have you ever been on podcast the ride?
Rebecca Alter
No, because I haven't been. Well, we've spoken about it. But then like, I don't know when I'm going to be in LA next.
Griffin
Podcast the ride and don't always do a lot. It feels like you have been inevitable on Facebook and the schedules never line up.
Rebecca Alter
This is the beginning of my, like, Life's wish Triple Crown.
David
Right. Like, I feel like for you, like, being on Blank Check is an enjoyable lark, but. But like it's a mere stepping stone to podcast.
Rebecca Alter
No, no, no, no, no. You misunderstand. I love playing Trailer.
David
Well, that's very nice of you. I love everything you do.
Rebecca Alter
A masterpiece of podcast. It's a dream to be on the podcast that I like so much.
David
Is there no other Nemo theme park stuff?
Rebecca Alter
Well, there's Crush's Coaster in Paris. There's a simulator in Disney Sea, but.
Griffin
Oh, Crush's Coaster. Yeah, Crush's Coaster is. It's very good. It is the exact kind of ride shell you hate. It's a shell that's moving fast and you're spinning.
David
You're in an indoor roller coaster, a mousey type ride.
Griffin
They play the kind of surf Rocky. Yes. Hey, I like that you knew the term.
David
Right. Isn't that what they're called?
Griffin
Tiny mouse coasters? It's very fun. It's in the.
David
Doesn't sound fun to me.
Griffin
Yeah, but you would. You would hate it.
David
Sounds like.
Griffin
Yes.
David
What was the other thing?
Griffin
But they play the Thomas Noonan, like, surf rock score. The environment's very fun. They have lights and colors.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. And that's in the bad part of Disneyland Paris. Right. Although it's just now rebranded it now. They have Olaf there.
Griffin
They have Aaron there.
Rebecca Alter
Children get to learn about death by watching Olaf power down in front of them.
David
Oh, yeah, right.
Griffin
I fall down on a boat.
Rebecca Alter
Which is so Parisian. It's so the ennui of make. They made an animatronic for Disneyland Paris. Who dies in front of you? Yes.
David
I will say Crush's coaster doesn't look that intense. I'm watching it.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah. It's a family coaster.
Griffin
This is the other thing. With Disney, nothing is that intense. But that is as close to being a thrill ride as Disney gets, basically.
Rebecca Alter
Oh, disagree.
Griffin
Well, what do you put higher?
Rebecca Alter
I'm saying even at that park, Indiana Jones is way more intense.
Griffin
I made the mistake of getting. My brother was living in France at the time, and I took him to Disney and he showed up with his backpack and his laptop because he said, I'm gonna have to just do some work at some point.
David
Sounds like a brother.
Griffin
And so he was really worried about the security of his laptop. And he was like, this thing isn't going to go upside down. Right. And I was like, no, it's Disney. Nothing goes upside down.
Rebecca Alter
Down.
Griffin
He was very angry at me at the end of that ride.
David
Does it go upside down?
Griffin
It does. It's the mine part roller coaster.
David
Watching it.
Griffin
It does one loop, I think so.
David
One little. One little saucy loop.
Griffin
He was holding onto his backpack.
Rebecca Alter
I will plug vulture.com.
Griffin
sure.
Rebecca Alter
And that's pretty much it, I think. What do you mean?
David
Popcorn bucket.
Rebecca Alter
They've cancelled. They've canceled, my ass.
Griffin
It's.
David
That's the man.
Rebecca Alter
The man didn't want me speaking truth about Devil Wears Prada. Bucket shaped like a bag. We tried to fucking Michael Jackson. Bucket shaped like a hat. They don't want me revealing these stories.
Griffin
And I'll say tried to force the issue through critical darlings.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, we really did so actually comment on. On all of Vulture's social media saying, bring back the popcorn buckets.
Griffin
The buckets still exist. I came in today asking Becca to do a bucket trade because I never got the Fantastic car from Fantastic Four First Steps. And I said I would promise to trade her the F1 popcorn bucket. That was supposed to be part of the critical darlings Oscar nominees segment. You're in review. And Becca has made it clear that she does not want the F1 bucket.
Rebecca Alter
I have five Melania buckets on my desk. I don't know what to do with them.
Griffin
Those things talk about being worth negative comedy points. Well, the Melania Bucket, they make me laugh.
David
Okay, well, then that's Lee Cronin's the Mummy. Have a bucket that's like a dead child. I'm off.
Rebecca Alter
I'm off. Be it. They. They pulled me off the case.
Griffin
It's an injustice. And let's.
David
What if it was just Lee Cronin? That would be good just to honor
Griffin
his Lee Cronin's the popcorn.
David
Exactly.
Griffin
Let's make it clear our listeners, let your voices be heard. Yes, Becca. Previously on the Masthead. Chief popcorn critic. Yeah, Popcorn bucket critic. And we want this reinstated. We want the coverage back.
David
Bring back bucket.
Rebecca Alter
Yeah, but in the same way that you should all join Blank Check Patreon, you should.
David
This is a good plug.
Rebecca Alter
Subscribe to a magazine.
Griffin
Subscribe to a magazine.
David
I'm a. I'm a New York magazine subscriber.
Griffin
Hashtag bring back Becca's buckets.
David
Sure. And on the day the release of this episode, June 21st, over on Patreon, RoboCop 2 is coming out.
Griffin
Oh, a movie I love as much as Finding Nemo.
David
A movie. A commentary where we're kind of like, this isn't very good the whole time. Oh, I'm sorry. Can we take that? We reveal our deepest secrets.
Griffin
I get pretty worked up. I don't want people to think I'm pretty worked up.
David
No, no, no. You get pretty worked up.
Griffin
I get pretty.
David
But I think we're even handed and fair about its flaws.
Griffin
I try not to be an.
David
Right. We're not just, like, all over it. We're just kind of like, my car shows up randomly that we've never talked about before. It kind of looks like me. Like, oh, you're doing, like, fun sweep sweep kind of stuff. Yeah, right.
Griffin
Joe Biden's the guest appears. Right. We. It. We have Orkel, Stefan or Kelly.
David
Okay.
Griffin
Steve Urkel and the Urkel Bot all appear on the episode Take us Out.
David
When AJ recently plugged Urkel in our group chat.
Griffin
No. Did he?
David
Yeah, he did.
Griffin
This is another thing I've been thinking. Interesting. And. And AJ kind of look similar.
David
Yeah, sure, sure.
Griffin
Got some AJ Vibes?
David
Yeah, a little bit, Yeah. I mean, you're just talking about, like a guy in a half zip with, like, hair. I mean, like, not. Not to insult aj. It's kind of like a normal looking guy. Yeah, yeah.
Griffin
AJ's very handsome, but he looks like the default video game avatar before you.
David
He's right. He's your sim before you start doing stuff. Sorry, sorry. Aj, you're very good looking. I prefaced it with very employee is good looking. Jj, especially stupid sexy.
Griffin
It actually sucks. I hated spending a weekend with his fucking hot ass. I'm going to stand next to him.
David
And former employee Nick texts me after meeting Ben, being like, what's his skincare routine? Yeah, I was like, nick, why would I know? I mean, that is funny that he asked you, but ask Ben. I don't know. Where's my secret? I don't do. Yeah, that was my. That would have been my guess.
Griffin
AJ and his family came into the city and we got lunch with AJ and his son, and he was telling me that he's. He's into SNL now. AJ's son, who's like eight, I think.
David
Sure.
Griffin
And so I was asking him about, like, which sketches he likes and which cast members he likes, likes, and I was like, do you like Colin Jost? And he went, who's Colin Jost? And AJ went, the guy where. Where he comes on screen, you point and go, daddy.
David
Dude, dude. Someone at one of our live shows texted me, like, I think Colin Jost is here.
Griffin
AJ is like, that's AJ.
David
Like, that's just AJ.
Griffin
Yeah. So Colin Jost, Andrew Stanton, AJ McKean, all on a spectrum. I just want to establish this at the beginning of the miniseries.
David
You guys are huge. Colin, joke on a announced to sit in the anod debts.
Griffin
Aj. I overheard Colin Jost talking about making edits to a Patreon episode. Why is he doing that?
David
I'm gonna pee. Take us out.
Griffin
Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. I'm very excited to be talking about the films of Andrew Stanton. I mean, few filmmakers we have ever covered or will ever cover more conform to the intro of this show. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are making given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those checks clear Wally. And sometimes they bounce Baby John Carter in three films. That's the whole fucking premise of this podcast. That's all. I just. I'm very excited to be doing this and I'm very excited that we're going to talk About Toy Story 5 on main feed, and I'm very excited and I'm glad that David's in the bathroom when I'm saying this so he doesn't get jealous that Forky's getting married in Toy Story 5. 5. Forky's wedding. Forky's wedding. Ben Forky's gonna make Karen Beverly an honest knife. Tune in next week for Wall E with David Ehrlich, a man who has seen that film 800 times, I think, approximately. And as always, Forky is getting married. Okay, I'm just. I'm making these edits here. David, you're gonna have to be Nemo.
David
Okay.
Griffin
Okay.
David
Yeah.
Griffin
I think that's the lighter lip.
David
I'm born for that role. What do you mean it's not the lighter? You have to be Marlon. If you're not Marlin, it's a disaster.
Griffin
Correct.
David
I mean, I think you should just do your Marlin line that you've been doing on this show for 11 years, which is the.
Griffin
It's like you think you can do these things, but you can't do them.
David
You've said that so many times on Blank Chat.
Griffin
I think one of the best lines of screenwriting.
David
Well, it's also like, clearly your Brooks is, like, locked into that line.
Griffin
Like, yeah, it's my activator.
David
Right?
Griffin
Yeah.
David
Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin.
BLANK CHECK PODCAST: FINDING NEMO with Rebecca Alter
Release Date: June 21, 2026
Hosts: Griffin Newman, David Sims
Guest: Rebecca Alter
Episode Length: ~3.5 hours
This episode launches the Andrew Stanton “Pod-C” miniseries, commemorating the director’s six-film filmography by starting with his staggering blockbuster, FINDING NEMO (2003). Hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims are joined by journalist and theme park aficionado Rebecca Alter for a detailed, hilarious, and emotional deep-dive into Stanton’s “should-be-taught-in-film-school” undersea epic. The discussion covers everything from the film’s narrative perfection, cultural legacy, and voice casting, to the technical animation breakthroughs, its pivotal role in the Pixar pantheon, and the cultural shifts it both presages and precipitates (including a lengthy detour through Dory/Ellen DeGeneres history and Disney Parks lore).
Nemo is framed as the ultimate “dad movie,” arising specifically from Stanton’s experience as a self-proclaimed anxious parent.
Marlin’s obsessive, overprotective tendencies aren’t just quirks—they’re part of a greater arc about learning to let one’s child take risks and grow apart.
The ending is lauded for its understated power, showing Marlin quietly, finally, letting Nemo go.
The episode is marked by Blank Check’s signature blend of riotous humor (“You're telling me Emma Mackey is Ella McKay... Ryan Gosling is Ryland Grace. We've gone too far!” – Griffin, 2:00), passionate, knowledgeable film analysis, and deep, specific nostalgia for millennial pop culture. Rebecca’s expertise in both animation journalism and theme parks adds palpable excitement (“I love Radiator Springs in Disney’s California Adventure. It’s one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever been to on Earth.” – Rebecca, 27:53). The panel is quick to chase tangents about Pixar lore, Disney theme parks, and even the logic of the Cars universe, but continuously snaps back to analyze Nemo’s technical and emotional sophistication, and its stunning impact on families and film culture alike.
The hosts ultimately agree that Finding Nemo stands as one of Pixar’s—and animation’s—apex achievements, an exquisite balance of narrative rigor, visual audacity, perfect casting, and emotional resonance. The episode also functions as a lively prologue for the “Pod-C” Andrew Stanton miniseries, promising in-depth treatments of WALL-E, John Carter, and more.
WALL-E with David Ehrlich
“You think you can do these things, but you just can't, Nemo.”
(Albert Brooks as Marlin, [153:03]; often cited by Griffin as an all-time screenwriting line)
Theme park, Oscars, and blank check discourse abounds in possibly the platonic ideal of a Blank Check episode.