Gallipoli with Jennifer Kent

Summary

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Blank Check with Griffin & David

Episode: Gallipoli with Jennifer Kent
Date: March 29, 2026
Guest: Jennifer Kent (director of The Babadook, The Nightingale)
Film Discussed: Gallipoli (1981), dir. Peter Weir

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims are joined by acclaimed filmmaker Jennifer Kent for an in-depth discussion of Peter Weir’s seminal Australian war film, Gallipoli (1981). As part of their miniseries on Weir’s filmography, the conversation explores the film’s historical significance, its personal impact, the rebirth of the Australian cinema, the unique lens of anti-war storytelling, and the career trajectories of its cast and director. Kent brings insightful perspective on national identity, filmmaking craft, and the deep emotional resonance of Gallipoli—and how it inspired her own work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shadow of the Poster, the Power of the Ending

• The episode opens with discussion of the marketing and final image of Gallipoli, with the hosts and Kent noting the unusual choice to use the film’s devastating last frame for its poster.
  • "That's what's so interesting...it's almost twice as devastating to now understand what that image was you were looking at." — Griffin (01:08)
  • Kent describes seeing Gallipoli as a child on a school trip and how certain lines and images ("What are your legs? Steel springs...") were emblazoned in her memory for decades. (02:16)

2. The Emotional Weight Across Generations

• Kent remembers seeing the film at age 10 and being struck by its depiction of war’s futility. Watching as an adult, she was "gutted":
  • "As a woman in my 50s... seeing nothing has changed, I just started howling...the human beings, the so-called forgettable masses are the ones that always suffer, and just to know that nothing changes. This film, it gutted me last night and I just felt, wow, this is a masterpiece." — Jennifer Kent (02:49)

3. The Blank Check Thesis & Australian New Wave Context

• Hosts contextualize Gallipoli within Weir’s career as a “blank check” project at the height of the Australian New Wave, symbolizing the global rise and recognition of Australian cinematic voice.
  • Discussion of the term “blank check”—the rare trust a director earns to make passion projects, sometimes resulting in masterpieces, sometimes “checks that bounce.” (04:00)

4. The Cycles and Structure of Australian Cinema

• Jennifer Kent gives a mini-lecture on Australian film history: a once-thriving silent era crushed by Hollywood, four decades of near-void, and then a bipartisan government investment that ignited the New Wave.
  • "Australians had the most thriving film industry in the world...then the Americans, mafiosa style, came in and put a stronghold on all the Australian cinemas so that Australian films could no longer be made..." — Jennifer Kent (11:17)
• The New Wave wasn’t propaganda: it was “odd, subversive, critical of our society,” equaling the vigor of the American and French New Waves. (14:31)

5. "Mateship," Anti-War Narratives, and National Identity

• Gallipoli is framed less as a conventional war epic and more as a "boy's adventure" film that transforms into a tragedy—"a coming-of-age movie interrupted by the brutality of the world." — Griffin (26:49)
• Kent discusses the "Australian larrikin" archetype and the film’s exploration of friendship (“mateship”), innocence, and loss.
  • "It's like…these guys aren't thinking of themselves as being in a war movie. They think this is the beginning of some rip roaring adventure..." — Griffin (26:24)
• The movie’s last act delivers the impact of war not through spectacle, but via devastation as we witness the loss of innocence.

6. The Craft: Form, Color, and Style

• Kent highlights the film’s color palette and compositions, noting the natural vibrancy of early scenes and how they gradually fade into desaturated horror, reflecting the loss of innocence. (100:05)
  • “There was some sort of Lawrence of Arabia almost kind of compositions as well…It’s not conventional, just formal. And I dig that as a filmmaker.” — Jennifer Kent (101:18)
• The use of classical and electronic music ("Vangelis") bridges period and emotion—“The music was really beautiful...as soon as I heard that music this time, I was like, oh, of course.” (113:23)

7. Death Onscreen: The Bergman Challenge

• Peter Weir drew inspiration from an Ingmar Bergman quote that "you can do most anything on screen except kill somebody," taking it as a challenge—how to depict a meaningful, believable death:
  • “What if you just killed one person whom you’ve gotten to know and like. And that was part of my structure…” — Peter Weir (via dossier, 55:01)
  • This influences the movie’s narrative structure: the entire film is "a machine to narratively get to that point and earn it,” ending on the shattering freeze-frame. (56:02)

8. Gallipoli’s Place in National Memory

• The film is not only a foundational touchstone for cinephiles, but known by “average mom and dad” Australians, akin to Crocodile Dundee — seen or at least “felt” by everyone (33:53)
• It reflects a turning point in Australian identity: "Gallipoli is the moment when Australians are like, why are we serving the British Empire?” — David (65:50)

9. Mel Gibson, Mark Lee & Choices of Stardom

• Kent and the hosts discuss the contrasting career paths of Mark Lee (“the unsung hero…so beautiful and innocent—he didn’t go on to be Mel Gibson”) and Gibson’s leap into international stardom.
  • “He was a force of nature...he’s so wonderful in the original Mad Max.” — Jennifer Kent (64:06)
  • Anecdote about Mark Lee allegedly turning down Amadeus: “It’s just not everyone wants that life...it’s not the greatest to be a star.” — Kent (83:07)
• The hosts observe how Lee’s choice to remain in Australia preserved both an innocence onscreen and privacy offscreen, connecting this to the themes of survival and survivor’s guilt in the film. (85:02)

10. The Blank Check: Funding, Industry, and Legacy

• The production was funded by Rupert Murdoch (then an emerging media mogul), marking his first and last hands-on film production before acquiring studios later.
  • “This ends up being a one and done...[Murdoch's exec] said, 'I've seen every Australian movie in the last two months and there are like 12 extraordinary filmmakers here.'” — Griffin (80:12)
• Gallipoli became the highest-budget Australian film of its time ($3 million AUD), made its money back domestically, but remained a modest “art house” release in the US. (108:48)
• Distributors wanted more romance, a different ending; producers held firm: “You give us $3 million, we’ll make a film like that. But this one is already made.” (110:45)

11. Influence & Personal Resonance

• Kent credits Weir’s (and Fred Schepisi’s) Australian films for inspiring her to make The Nightingale, emphasizing the continuous lineage of filmmakers unafraid to stare into national traumas. (124:25)
  • “...if Fred Schepisi hadn’t made Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith and if Peter Weir hadn’t made his early Australian films, I don’t think I would have had the courage...” — Jennifer Kent (124:25)
• She highlights the importance for future generations to watch and learn from Weir’s work, underlining his status as “a real master” in world cinema. (123:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On seeing Gallipoli as a kid:
  “I could not believe that some images were emblazoned in my soul. And one of them was that final image.” — Kent (02:16)

• On the futility of war:
  “...seeing what's just happened in Iran and knowing that the human beings, the so called forgettable masses are the ones that always suffer...nothing changes.” — Kent (02:49)

• On Weir’s early films:
  “They're so accomplished and so clear in their vision, but they also do feel like outsider art in a certain way, almost on the level of what you're saying, Jennifer, of his spiritual connection...” — Griffin (46:24)

• On the anti-epic nature of Gallipoli:
  “I think it's an anti epic in a really interesting way because it does have the scale and the production way...but it's actually eluding all of the obvious story beats you expect in a kind of epic tale set against the backdrop of a war.” — Griffin (53:18)

• On survivor’s guilt, film, and stardom:
  “...all he can do is just choose to. As Mel Gibson put it, he has the power to be a coward in this moment, which is the smart thing to do, but he doesn't save anyone else.” — Griffin (85:02)

• On personal filmmaking:
  “I have to be deeply connected to something, like on a very deep level. Because you're going to stick with this story for a number of years, so it has to be meaningful. And, you know, I didn't watch Marvel films, so why would I want to direct them?” — Kent (91:49)

• On The Plumber and personal anxieties:
  “It is maybe my second greatest anxiety trigger behind war is people in my home asking me questions.” — Griffin (44:37)

• On mateship and men in Gallipoli:
  “Mateship does feel like this particularly Australian sort of way that men relate to each other.” — David (98:10)

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Important Timestamps

• Film’s marketing and poster: 00:27–01:26
• Kent on childhood experience of Gallipoli: 01:44–02:49
• History of Australian film, Hollywood’s blockade: 10:46–14:31
• Kent’s Top 10 Australian Films: 16:55–17:53
• Structure of Gallipoli, anti-war build-up: 20:17–21:52
• On survivor’s guilt and character arcs: 85:02–86:07
• Gallipoli’s “dance” sequence—production insight: 107:02–107:41
• On the personal/craft transition from Australia to Hollywood: 87:17–91:05
• Jennifer Kent on influence for The Nightingale: 124:25

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Episode Flow Highlights

• Personal histories feed into film analysis: Kent’s generational view of Gallipoli sets pacing and tone for the episode.
• Frequent breakdowns of Australian film culture and national identity: The crew continuously contrasts Australia’s sense of self as seen in cinema, especially vis-à-vis the UK and the US.
• Parallels between Gallipoli and modern anti-war cinema, as well as Kent’s own work
• Candid industry stories about funding, distribution, casting, and the realities of creative compromise
• A charming detour through Crocodile Dundee, Bluey, and the larrikin archetype, reflecting on Australian humor and cultural exports
• Reflections on the challenges of authenticity, universality, and influence across national and artistic borders

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Final Recommendations

• For listeners: If you have not seen Gallipoli or The Nightingale, both are highly recommended as deeply moving, essential works of anti-war and national cinema.
• For film fans: Peter Weir’s Australian period (especially Picnic at Hanging Rock, The Cars that Ate Paris, The Last Wave, and Gallipoli) remains foundational to understanding both his oeuvre and the rebirth of Australian film.
• From Jennifer Kent: The value and bravery of deeply personal filmmaking, even in the face of industry inertia and the challenges of globalized culture.
  • "I'm very devoted...I think being a writer, director...you have to be deeply connected to something." (92:36)

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This episode is an engaging, illuminating journey through Gallipoli's craft and emotional resonance, revealing both its unique place in world cinema and the lasting wounds of war, all through the lens of three generations of film storytellers.

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Transcript

[A]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blank check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect. All you need to know is that the name of the shadow is Blank Jack. From a place you've never heard of, a podcast you'll never forget.

[B]

Okay, For a guest, just.

[A]

Just for the context of what happened.

[B]

That's the tagline of the film. And he's put the word podcast in

[A]

there, the American tagline. Now, I think it's an interesting marketing strategy. It's kind of a tagline saying, oh, Jesus, this is a hard one to

[B]

market from a place you've never heard of.

[C]

You're leading from a place you've never heard of.

[A]

Hey, guys, I know this title is gonna make no sense to you, but. But if you watch the movie, you'll be happy about it after the fact, right? You won't forget it.

[B]

It's also. It's a poster. That's the final image of the film. That's what's fascinating. The final image. Yeah.

[C]

That is really bold, I thought. But it's out of context, so I guess you don't know.

[A]

That's what's so interesting about it is it's not obfuscating the ending at all, but it is out of context in a way where you don't read into it. And then when the movie hits that image, it's almost quite twice as devastating to now understand what that image was you were looking at.

[B]

But Platoon did the same thing. And this is a movie that reminded, like, Platoon really sort of is drafting off this movie. And that's another movie where they had the final image, basically, as the poster.

[A]

But basically, finally, this is the actual final image.

[C]

You're right.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

Is Platoon the year?

[B]

No, it's eight years later.

[A]

It's later. It's 86.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. When I was a kid, we used to actually go to the cinema for school. And so this film was a film that we all went to see.

[A]

This was like a new release. School field trip to the theater.

[C]

Yes, exactly. And watching it again last night, which is 45 years later, I could not believe that some images were emblazoned in my soul. And one of them was that final image.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I remembered that. I also remembered Jack's conversation with his uncle. You know that stuff about racing. I wrote it down, which is, you know, what are your legs? Steel springs. What are they going to do? They're going to hurl me down the track. How fast can you run? As fast as a leopard. How fast are you going to run as fast as a leopard, then let's see you do it. And I was just like, as a kid, that really got to me.

[B]

You remembered it?

[C]

Yes, I do.

[B]

How old would you have been when you saw it?

[C]

About 10. Around 10. But the thing that's so devastating for me last night is as a 10 year old, you see a film like this and you think, what a terrible thing that happened in our history. You know, that's terrible. But then, you know, as a woman in my 50s looking at this and seeing nothing has changed, I just started howling. I was like, you know, seeing what's just happened in Iran and knowing that the human beings, the so called forgettable masses are the ones that always suffer and just to know that nothing changes. This film, it gutted me last night and I just felt, wow, this is a masterpiece.

[A]

Hardigree Jennifer. Some lore on this podcast. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

[B]

I'm David.

[A]

It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who had massive success early on in their careers, such as getting to make possibly the most expensive Australian film made up until this point. But possibly the Road Warrior beat it by a little bit.

[B]

Okay, sure, sure, sure.

[A]

It was basically at that level of the industry rising to establish this is the new ceiling of what could be made and being given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. We are talking about the film Gallipoli.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

From place you've never heard of podcast you'll never forget, hopefully.

[C]

So is Australia the place you've never heard of or Gallipoli?

[B]

That's why the American tagline is so funny. The Australian tagline was just Peter Weir's film of Gallipoli. It's very much a sort of like, you know, this is one of our emerging filmmakers has made a film about a very important historic event in Australia.

[A]

Right. I guess it sold itself more in that way. This is a miniseries on the films of Peter Weir. It's called Podnik at Hanging Cast.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Our guest today to my great excitement is one of my favorite modern filmmakers, someone I've talked about so much.

[B]

And our guest from the furthest away that we've ever had.

[A]

I think this is true. A record being broken.

[B]

I don't think so. I don't think we've ever had a guest from so far away beaming onto the show before.

[A]

Furthest away geographically, furthest away in time. You are far ahead in the future.

[B]

Yeah, it's tomorrow there.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We're a day ahead. There's, like flying cars and shit around here.

[A]

Cause I was. Our friend, Rob Shearer, our mutual friend, helped us set this up. And we were going back and forth about what days and times to throw out, and I said, Monday evening. And he went. And just to clarify, by that, you mean her? Tuesday, Right.

[C]

Yeah. This is always. I'm used to it. I'm the master of. Okay, so you realize I'm in the future, right?

[B]

You have to deal with this all the time, right?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A day ahead, but further, you know, later in the next day, if that makes sense. But anyway, yes, I'm here.

[A]

The great Jennifer Kent, the filmmaker behind the Babadook and the Nightingale, two of my favorite movies of the last.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, is it. Well, it's more than 10 years for Babadook.

[A]

Just. It was just the 10th anniversary.

[C]

It was. Last year was 10 years, which is sort of unbelievable to me.

[A]

I often contend it is, like, one of the most influential films of this century.

[B]

It's a wonderful film.

[A]

And I. Beyond just how much I love it and how exceptional I think it is, I do think there is a ripple effect across all of horror at a studio level, at an independent level, globally. Like, I do think there was a turning point in that film. And I've seen the entire language of horror change around it. Wow.

[C]

Well, you know, not. Not. We're not here to talk about me. But in regards to that film, it was really hard to get made, actually, because there was a big snobbery within the Australian funding systems towards horror.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And so I said to them it was art house horror. And their response was, you know, there's no such thing as that. And. But that's the way I sort of treated it, that it was. I mean, to call it elevated is it sort of. It's a disparaging term towards horror and cinema. I think all horror is elevated because it's just pure cinema. And that's it.

[A]

I am 100% with you. And I have always found the elevated horror thing very backhanded.

[B]

Right. It's backhanded.

[A]

But the fact that you had to call it art house horror and trying to get financing to make it shows that it was before the elevated horror conversation.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And now I think they're like, okay, bring us your horror, you know.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that's good. I'm really happy that that means that other filmmakers who really care about the genre, and there are many. There are, you know, many of them in Australia that they can get their films made.

[A]

But even finding a way to tell what is clearly like a story that personally means a lot to you, that has big ide and big emotions and big, like, story notions to communicate that it's not just like, I'll make a horror movie because that's what can get sold, or I'll take a different idea and I'll dress it up in horror. When I saw Babadook, it felt like the atom was split of, like, oh, this is a pathway for what this genre can be. And it has felt like I have found it entirely transformative on, like, the landscape before. And it's a movie I adore. Also, I've told this story before on the podcast, but I went to see it with my parents and like, 40 minutes in, my mother was gasping. It was my second time seeing it. I dragged them to see it because I loved it so much. And, like, 40 minutes in, my mother was, like, covering her mouth with her hand and I said, it's really scary, right? And she went, no, you don't understand. This is the only movie I've seen that depicts what it felt like to raise you as a child.

[B]

Yeah, he was. He was. He was the boy right here.

[C]

Oh, well, me too. I mean, I used to, like, invent go karts without breaks and, you know, send them rolling down hills with me in them. And yeah, I was pretty. Pretty. Maybe I wasn't seeing the Babadook in every corner, but I relate, put it that way, Griffin.

[A]

I don't know if I was seeing the Babadook literally, but yes, the movie, it certainly helped me a lot in terms of therapy. It unlocked a lot of things.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I had one guy who wrote to me and said that he lost his dad very young and his mom raised three boys. And he said he's an editor and he was just watching it late at night, like, put it on, half watching it. And he said that he was just sort of drawn in. And by the end, he said, thank you. This was more valuable to me than 20 years of therapy. And as a filmmaker, I mean, that when you get that kind of. I mean, that's why I do it, you know, I've really. To send people therapy to make films that. Yeah, exactly. And get a cut somehow sent back to me. But no, it means a lot to really reach people, you know, and you never know who you're going to reach. I mean, does Peter Weir know that, you know, someone's watching his film 45 years later and Just ugly crying about, you know, the messages of the film.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And the futilities of war. It's like, incredible to me.

[A]

What.

[B]

What is your relationship to Weir generally like? Have you seen most of his filmography? What? You know, did you. I guess you grew up with these movies, as you just said.

[C]

Yeah. Well, the interesting thing about, you know, without giving you a lecture on it, but we didn't make.

[A]

You are invited to give a lecture.

[B]

How about you just sit here while you give us an Australian film lecture? That would be just fine.

[A]

School our asses.

[C]

Okay, let me start. Way back in the beginning, my great, great uncles were film producers. Great, great. In the silent era. Oh, dang.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

In Australian silent film.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. And so my dad, being low key and sort of chill, Australian, as we all are just close to before he died, said, oh, did I ever tell you that your great, great uncles were film producers? And I said, no. And anyway, told me this story that, you know, they were also film distributors and they distributed the first film ever made, which is the history of the Ned Kelly gang. The history of the Kelly gang.

[A]

Like a cyber. How long was it?

[C]

It was the first film ever made, like, in the world, period. Yeah. And that was, you know, it was a feature length, but a lot. It's lost. There's only bits of it now. But then they went and produced, like, a lot of silent films with Raymond Longford and Lottie Lyle, who were like big stars. And we had, in Australia, the most thriving film industry in the world. It surpassed Hollywood. So there were more bums on seats to see our films than there was anywhere in the world, including America. And then the Americans saw that and came in and went, we want to. We want that. So what they did was they, mafiosa style, came in and put a stronghold on all of the Australian cinemas so that Australian films could no longer be made because they wouldn't be screened. And so my great, great uncles took these films that they were making and went round to town halls and public spaces and tried to screen them. And they fought it and fought it and fought it. And then they had to give up and they went into live theater production. Right, right.

[B]

And I feel like Australian cinema kind of atrophied. Right?

[C]

I mean, like, well, so that was in the 30s, and then for almost 40 years, we didn't make any films.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[C]

Which is insane, Right.

[B]

When you're reading about Peter Weir sort of coming up in the 70s, it's like, there's really not much of an industry. There's a television industry, which is how he's getting started or whatever. But there's not much of a film industry.

[A]

But also people in these interviews we keep reading and quotes from him at the time, you know, talking about what the Australian New Wave represented. Even though we've lacked this context, it's been very clear. They're not just saying like, oh, and then a new movement or a new style came in. The New wave was starting up the machinery again for the first time in decades.

[C]

That's right. And then. So it puts it into context. Right. Because if you look at, okay, in 1969, we had zero again. I mean, there was one filmmaker, Charles Chevelle, who made like, Jeddah, which is a very odd, kind of intentionally good, but quite racist film.

[A]

And we have none of those in America.

[C]

Oh, no, no. But then. So you had nothing, and then you had Wake and Fright, which is extraordinary. And Walkabout, which is also extraordinary. Ted Kotchev and Walkabout, and they were both directed by, you know, non Australians, but they're both masterpieces. But it was because the government, of all places, and it was a bipartisan thing. It was both the right and left wing, two, you know, two prime ministers said, well, we're going to invest in culture. We're going to give you some culture. Yeah, let's get some culture going. And what's extraordinary to me is it wasn't like, Aussie, Aussie, Aussie. Yeah, aren't we good? Let's make sort of propaganda films about how great Australians are. These films were very. They sort of equaled American independent cinema and European new wave, you know, the French New wave, in that they were very critical of our society, our culture. And they're very odd.

[B]

Disturbing. Yeah.

[C]

Odd and disturbing. Yeah. Like, I. We have a cinema tech here in Brisbane. It's all free. Like, they play incredible films. And one of the films I had the other day was the Cars that Ate Paris. And even films like that, they're just subversive and weird and brilliant.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Cars that Ate Paris we've covered. Yeah, right. His first major film.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sort of strangely funny. Do you guys get that? In terms of it's humor, I found

[A]

it very funny, but I don't know if I'm finding it funny for the reasons he intended.

[B]

Well, I. Right. I think it's probably. It's making fun of a sort of small town, you know, mindset that I think we both. We did understand. But then there's certainly things we're probably not picking up on. On this sort of like small town mindset of the, you know, the 70s that like, it's. It's satirizing in Australia.

[C]

Yeah, it just felt sort of quintessentially Australian to me, that film. And sort of Babadook style humor as well. And then I realized, oh, there is such a thing as Australian humor.

[A]

Why? It's just to Clarify, in the 40 years where theaters are operating, but Australian films basically aren't getting made. Is it primarily American films that are playing there? Is it equal amounts of films from the UK and from other parts of Europe culture?

[C]

I think we. Yeah, I think. I mean, it wasn't around, but I knowing from my mum, who was a big, you know, sort of. We can call her a cinephile, but she watched everything that came out and it was mainly Hollywood.

[A]

I think that qualifies. A cinephile. Yeah, I think we can give her

[C]

the title, like unintentional. Unintentional cinephile. But we all, we had, we had a lot of British films made here. You know, the Sundowners and Chips Rafferty was an Aussie star. He was an Australian actor, but he was always starring as the token Aussie in British films that were made here. Right, yeah.

[B]

And you know those early Weir films, I mean, Picnic and Hanging Rock, I don't know if you have a particular impression of that one. I know that is sort of. That's such a totemic one for Aussie cinema.

[C]

I mean. Yeah, it's one of my favorites. I had to make a list for the age here just today actually, of my 10 favorite Australian films.

[B]

Wait, what are your 10 favorite Australians?

[A]

Yeah, I wanna hear.

[B]

This was unrelated to the show. You. You were doing it for something else.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So I, I had to make a list just because they're asking filmmakers what their favorite. I mean, I kind of hate making lists because filmmaking is not a horse race. Sure, yeah.

[B]

It's exclusionary to make a list, but it's fun too.

[C]

But I made it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So my favorite Australian films today were Wake in Fright, Walkabout, Picnic at Hanging Rock, the Last Wave, the Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's right. Fred Shepson.

[C]

Yeah, right, yeah, Skepsy. Yep. And he. Yeah, he's. That film made an. A huge impression on me. Especially for the Nightingale, I think. Gallipoli, Mad Max, Snowtown, 10 Canoes and Chopper.

[B]

I don't know. 10 Canoes I'm looking at.

[A]

I don't know that one either. But I mean, three out of ten slots was Peter Weir.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You had three Peter Weir movies. The Last Wave was a film we covered where I think we felt very out of our depth in terms of the sort of, like, the cultural stuff he's wrestling with there.

[A]

Loved it.

[B]

It's a very interesting movie. Yeah.

[A]

But you're just kind of aware that there's a bunch of stuff underneath the surface that we don't have the ability to pick up on.

[B]

But it was fantastic.

[C]

I think join the club in that it is, you know, it. It's a film about sort of climate, not climate change, but it's an environmental film, I think, and. And, you know, the Aboriginal presence in it. What I really admired that he did was just let them go.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So, though, I mean, that's what I. We did in Nightingale as well, was, you know, the script was made in full consultation with Palawa people, Tasmanian Aboriginal people. But that's what I think you probably. Is that what you're finding a bit confounding? Like, oh, my God, what is this? Not even.

[B]

I mean, Last Wave. I would say Last Wave is trying to confound. I mean, both Last Wave and Picnic at Hanging Rock are happy to leave you in the dark. Yes. A little unsatisfied in terms of explanations and ready to wrestle with it, which is. Which is great. Gallipoli is not that at all. Gallipoli is a very sort of straightforward kind of, you know, punch in the jaw, which is fine. Like, I mean, that obviously works great.

[A]

I'd say. I don't think it's that we've been confounded by these early ones, but there's almost like an anti Dunner, Kruger, Dunning, Kruger syndrome thing, where the more we try to do some research, either going into the movie or after the fact, then you start to become more aware of how much you don't know if that makes sense. We're like, oh, let's try to get, like, a slight bit of cultural context on this.

[C]

I think that's why I do probably favor his earlier films that were made in Australia, and it's not because they were made in Australia, but there's a tone to them that's very unconventional and it's really purely from him. And you really feel that. I mean, in the Last Wave, I love that section where the older Aboriginal character is just saying to Richard Chamberlain's character, who are you? Who are you? Who are you? He keeps saying it over and over, and the first time I watched it, I thought, oh, my God, who am I?

[B]

It worked.

[C]

Who the hell? Who the Hell am I Walked to the kitchen, got a cup of tea and thought, who am I? You know? But it's very aboriginal. It's very authentic in that way. And, yeah, my memory of Gallipoli, having not seen it again last night, was that it's a very conventional film that I enjoyed as a kid. That was my. So it was, you know, it is very conventional. But I would argue that now it's like the antithesis of Saving Private Ryan, which starts off so gritty and confronting and horrific and then kind of goes into a much more romantic. Everything's gonna be all right. We're gonna save this one dude who you know. But this film, Gallipoli is where mates. Everything is gonna be okay. Everything's gonna be all right. And then nothing is all right. And like, if you look at the structure of the film, it's like an hour and 46 minutes. And I just clocked at this time, you know, that the first hour and 15 minutes, you don't even sort of realize there's a war. I mean, you know, there's a war. Cause they tell you there's a war. And even when they're in Cairo, they're having fun and it's about their relationship. But it's in that last 35 minutes right now. 30. Yeah, 30 minutes. And then it gets serious all of a sudden. And then in the last 20 minutes, you're like, oh, my God, this is a horror.

[B]

This is ridiculous. I mean, an entire thing. And because Gallipoli is such a pivotal. I learned about that in school. And the battle.

[C]

You did.

[A]

David grew up in London.

[B]

I grew up in England. So World War I, we were told all this stuff. I think I thought of this movie as a sort of definitive accounting of what happened at Gallipoli and what went wrong and about the big battle. And then that's what I love about the movie, is that it's not that at all. It's like they're like, you don't need to understand, like, what happened here. Except that it was lunacy. Except that they were just throwing people, you know, over trenches.

[A]

The point is that it was meaningless.

[B]

Run that way. Yes, exactly.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And no one was. Everyone was indispensable. No one was going to survive that. I mean, it was an absolute failure in terms of, you know, if you look. I mean, I'm no army historian, but any. Most Australians can tell you that that was a failure. And, you know, 130,000 plus lives were lost on both sides, and they didn't achieve any. Got Anything out of it and that

[A]

it was a failure before they sent all these boys to die. Like it was already a conclusive failure. And then there was this completely unnecessary mass sacrifice pushed on top of it to establish some warp in the history of our show. Jennifer, when you were saying watching this, you view this as a period piece and then go, I can't believe this kind of stuff is still happening today. You know, you were comparing it back to your experience of watching this for a first time as a 10 year old. My relationship to war in movies is like perpetually frozen at the age of 10, where more so than any other type of film, war movies tend to just make my brain short circuit for that exact reason. I just become like a Pollyanna child where I go, I don't understand how this is real.

[B]

Right.

[A]

More so than any fantastical genre film. I just go like, I don't understand how this is still how things get settled. And I become so overwhelmed with anxiety that it's really hard for me to engage with them. And I would say the war films I do like tend to, by and large, be movies that are not actually war films, quote, unquote, as a genre. They are films where war is a backdrop and there is some emotional story being told in front of the war. I did not know what to expect from this film. And I think I expected much like David, this is more a conclusive kind of epic retelling of this important moment in Australian history. And starting it and immediately realizing 10 minutes in, oh, they find out the war is happening in the newspaper. There's just this kind of like, did you guys see there's some war happening?

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And the fact that the movie is.

[C]

Yeah. And I love the guy who's kind of out in the middle of nowhere and says, oh, is there a war going on?

[A]

Yeah. And this movie is really structured more as like a boy's adventure film in the sense that it is like these guys going off to join the circus. The war is kind of.

[B]

And be friends. These guys are gonna go be friends together is like obstructed.

[A]

These boys are going off on a journey. They could just as easily be looking for a hidden pirate ship. You know, it could be like a Goonies style adventure. And they're approaching it with that energy.

[C]

Exactly. And there's a word that we. It's very dated. No one says larrikin now, but it's a very Australian word that would be used to describe these guys is, you know, larrikins, that they're up for a Bit of fun and they're a bit naughty and you know, break the rules. But it's all gonna end well with a beer and a joke. And that's why like and snowy. I remember as a kid we all cracked up laughing at David argue in that role. Cause he was so such an innocent, you know, and, and then to. That's when I lost my shit last night watching it was when he was in the tent. He said, they're not, they're not giving me food or water. And I just broke down. And from that point on, and even when I forget the actor's name, but the, the young guy at the beginning who's fighting Archie on the horse and Archie's running. Remember when they.

[B]

Oh yeah, I'm not sure, let's see.

[C]

And then they sort of see each other as the bully character's just about to go over the trench and he's an absolute mess.

[B]

Right, Harold Hopkins, that's that actor, right?

[C]

Harold Hopkins. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's so well constructed actually as a script. I feel it is.

[B]

Yeah, it's brilliantly constructed.

[A]

Well, and also I basically from that moment, like just from the tone and where the story was starting at the beginning, I went, oh, I see what this is. And he is setting me up for like the grand tragedy of this movie, which is these guys aren't thinking of themselves as being in a war movie. They don't understand what war is. They think this is like the beginning of some rip roaring adventure and some coming of age tale. Which is.

[B]

What's the story of World War I? Of course.

[A]

This is a coming of age movie interrupted by the brutality of the world.

[C]

Yes. And he delays it and delays it and delays it till the absolute. Till they can't delay it anymore. Even when they rip off all their clothes and they jump into the water and there's shells firing off around.

[A]

That's my favorite.

[C]

Or that's. I mean you go, oh, I don't feel good here. Cause you know, there's this sort of danger that's introduced underwater so brilliantly like that. But then when the guy comes up, he's only had his arm hit and not badly. So you think, oh good. You know, back to sort of laughing and having fun, but it's like water ballet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Brilliant, brilliant. Right.

[A]

Because even until that guy is like nicked by the one bullet, even as their bullets floating past them, it feels like it's just adding to like the beauty and the ambiance.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You know, it's Kind of this, like, visually ecstatic thing.

[B]

Well, just the whole thing with her at the beach and there's just, like, shelling going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're just kind of like. Yeah, well, that's over there. You know, like. You know, like just that feeling of. It's like, yeah, it's close, but it's not here yet.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Until that night. Until that night.

[A]

Until that night. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But like, it's a sneakily sort of untraditional way to tell the story. Like it. You know, it is.

[C]

Yeah. It's not milking the drama and the kind of excitement of war. It's not milking that.

[B]

No.

[C]

Right.

[A]

No.

[C]

Cause when war hits, it hits. And that's game over. It's it. That's the end of them all. Well, not all of them, but almost all.

[A]

Weir said that, like, part of the big inspiration for this film, part of it, was that he went to visit the site and he saw the bullet casings and such that were still there.

[B]

Well, but it wasn't just that. He saw the cases of the. It's Gibson's. Mel Gibson's character gets it in the care package.

[A]

The beverage.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, he saw. I have to find it. Yeah, I will look. We have some research we can.

[C]

Like, he got the bath salts and the cookbook.

[A]

It's the Eno bottle.

[B]

Yeah. So is that an existing Australian brand?

[C]

It's not anymore, but. And it was. When I was a kid, it was still a. It was still a thing. So people. So the audiences watching that would have gone, aha. Ye. Okay, I know what that is.

[A]

That was the big thing he said, is he went to visit the site. There were still bullet casings there. And then he saw an Eno bottle. And it was like, immediately conjured the idea of, oh, these were just kids. These were kids who were using the same products that I use today. The banality of needing to take an antacid in the middle of this thing made him conjure the whole thing. Which is also weirdly similar to how Last Wave came about, where he talked about envisioning seeing the object in the cave.

[B]

Oh, sure.

[A]

It's two consecutive movies where he finds an object and is like, that's a good idea for a movie.

[C]

Wow. Wow.

[B]

Have you ever met him or interacted with him, Jennifer? I have no idea how.

[C]

I haven't, unfortunately. I haven't had anything to do with Peter, but, I mean, I feel I know him because. Not in a kind of stalkery way, but just because as a kid, I saw these films and they're like a dream. They're like a dream that I had and they're so important to our psyche as Australians, especially people in the arts and in film. So, yeah, he's an absolute master to me. And I would guess that many people don't know who he is in America. Do you think?

[B]

I think that he's. Yes, a little bit on that edge. It's part of why I really wanted to cover him. If he's made a lot of very, very well remembered films that do linger in the cultural consciousness, but he's not thought of as an auteur, I mean, obviously by film fans, he's very well regarded, but like, you know, in the larger public. And he should be more, you know, and like in. He's got such an interesting and varied filmography and he worked in every genre and even when he came to Hollywood, he kind of never had one thing that he did. He kept kind of hopping between, you know, modes of storytelling, which was so interesting.

[A]

David?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Moo Movie.

[B]

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Why are you listing Blanchett, Vicky Creeps, all the people who were invited to Ben's birthday party.

[B]

It's a triptych, right? There's a New Jersey section, a Dublin section, a Paris section. Obviously Jarmusch has done some such storytelling before. Night on Earth and such. Coffee and cigarettes. Griffin.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. It's about the relationships between adult children, their somewhat distant parent or parents and each other. I simply cannot relate.

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[A]

I see. I think, Jennifer, when we're. When my experience in telling people that we're about to cover Weir.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's usually, who is that? And then I can list a couple films. I'll say Picnic at Hanging Rock. I'll say Witness. I'll say Truman Shaw. I'll say Master and Commander. And they'll go, oh, I didn't know one guy made all of those. Or I say Peter Weir. They repeat back those four movies.

[B]

Those are probably the four.

[A]

And then they go, what else did he make?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then I'll name the other movies and they'll go, oh, I didn't realize the same person made all of those. It doesn't feel like anyone has a very complete notion of him here, even if they know his movies.

[B]

But I know in Australia, Picnic and Hanging Rock and Gallipoli especially are. Those are very foundational movies to Australian.

[C]

And I mean, I think even your average, you know, mom and dad would know of Gallipoli. It's like one. It's like a bit like Crocodile Dundee or, you know, it's. It's the kind of film that everyone saw, or even if they didn't see, they think they have. They feel they've seen it and maybe

[B]

they saw it in school or something like that. It does, right? Yeah. I mean, and it's the Mel Gibson sort of breakout movie. You know, there's a lot of.

[A]

Right. Okay. Before we get into the context and open up our research, Dasia here. Now, just only because you brought it up, I must ask Jennifer. We covered the three Crocodile Dundee movies.

[B]

Oh, sure.

[A]

In Deep Pandemic, while we were losing our minds. We had never seen them before, and we were kind of fascinated by being a little too young for them and knowing that they were such a cultural phenomenon. And there was one day where we watched all three of them in a row in like January 2021, losing our minds, and started kind of like, skeptical, like, what is this. What is this fad thing that was popular in the 80s? And then like 20 minutes into the first Crocodile Dundee, we were like, this fucking rules. I love this guy. I'd watch 80 of these movies. The drop off on 2 and 3, I found pretty severe.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Yes. Yeah, right. I haven't seen two and three. I've definitely seen one. I mean, did you go into Paul Hogan's kind of history of.

[A]

We tried to.

[B]

Really. I mean, yeah, he's still Kicking around.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, he's quite old at this point.

[C]

Yeah, he's. He's sort of. You don't hear about him now, but when I was growing up, you know, as a kid of the 70s and 80s, he was this cultural icon and he had. He was known as Hoags, you know, and he used to be a bit. He. His claim to fame before he became a star was he helped work on the Sydney Harbour Bridge. So he was a real Aussie, you know, sort of labourer and. But he was a larrikin. If ever there is a use for the word larrikin, that's him, you know, with a capital L. And he had a show called the Paul Hogan Show.

[A]

Right, we know that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And it was funny. I mean, it was very Aussie, but. And you know, he had, he had a co star, like an, Like a. It was like sort of like the Benny Hill show or. I don't know what's the American equivalent?

[B]

I mean, what is the. It's sort of like.

[A]

Like Carol Burnett or something, but like.

[C]

Yeah, like. Yeah, maybe laughing or.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a big popular sketch show.

[C]

Yeah, sketch show, exactly. But with ongoing characters.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so then for him to make Crocodile Dundee, I have no idea how that. Who produced that film. And then I'll be able to tell you maybe how it came about.

[A]

Yeah, it's a really good question because my two pronged question was like, how was it received in Australia at the time? And then how did Australians feel about Americans for the next three decades being like, oh, Australia, like Crocodile Dundee basically becoming the 1 reference point.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I find it kind of hilarious how Americans view Australia anyway, you know that you get off the plane and you grab your luggage and there's spiders all over it, Right.

[B]

You know, scorpions falling from the sky.

[C]

A drop bear is going to like attack you and you'll basically be dead before you get to the taxi. Yeah. And you know, we play on that too. I mean, and there is some truth in it. Like my ex, his cousin came from Germany and we went to the sea and we were at an estuary and we were on this bridge and this kid went to his dad, dad, look down, look down, there's a ray. And it was like a manta ray the size of a car. And I've never seen that in my entire life. But this poor German guy said that's

[B]

the first thing he sees.

[C]

I want to go home.

[B]

Look, I mean, we're talking. I can tell you that it was Produced by John Cornell, who I think was his sort of.

[C]

Oh, yeah. So that was Strop. That was the guy, Right?

[B]

Strop, his sidekick.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[C]

Only produced by him. Must have been other people.

[B]

He's the only listed producer. The distributor was called Hoyt's Distribution.

[C]

Yeah, that's like big cinema chain, right? Yeah, yeah, it's a cinema channel.

[A]

Rimfire Films was the production company.

[C]

So then in that case, it looks

[B]

like they got some tax money.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. In that case, it must have come from. From Hoags. Must have come from those two. I mean, stroke a genius and isn't.

[B]

Didn't Hogan also have the cigarette campaign where he would always say, anyhow, have a Winfield.

[C]

Have a Winfield thing.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Yeah. Oh, my God. And he did that Aussie labourer thing of like having your ciggies in your T shirt, like on your. On.

[B]

Like you tuck the sleeve. Yeah, right.

[C]

Yeah. Is a masculine thing to do.

[B]

So funny that we're talking about Paul Hogan, because he is the. No, I know.

[A]

No, I mean, we need to create a. What's the word I'm looking for? A tapestry between these two points.

[B]

I'll just say the other thing about this movie is that the line Jennifer already quoted, the. How fast are you gonna run? As fast as leopard. That Bluey. I have young children, so I watch Bluey all the time. Which is now my closest connection to Australian culture.

[A]

The modern croc Dundee.

[C]

That's set in very close to where I live.

[B]

Right. You're from Brisbane, right? Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. And I lived in Sydney for many decades and then came back here because I. Because I want to be close to my family of origin. And I love it here. It's changed. It's not like Bluey, but it's not like Bluey.

[B]

I really was hoping it was exactly like Bluey.

[A]

Did the dogs talk?

[C]

Although there is a Bluey world or something. That's right.

[B]

There's like a visible Bluey. There's an episode of Bluey called Obstacle Course that where he says, how fast will you run? As fast as a greyhound is the line they use. The second, which. It's an homage to Gallipoli.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

Oh, Bluey. Oh, that's so sweet. Adib just said, where I am now is. The composer is next door to Bluey.

[B]

This is incredible. That guy's a genius. His name's Jaz. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, a woman. Oh, cool. Yeah.

[A]

I'll make the other connected bridge. I guess I just forgot this. Russell Boyd Shot Crocodile Dundee 1 and 2. Who shot Gallipoli?

[B]

Who's Peter Wilson.

[C]

Yeah, I. I noted. I noted that last night, that Russell Boyd has done a lot. As I wrote down the films he. He did Last Wave, Year of Living Dangerous.

[A]

He started on Picnic and Hanging Rock, and he did all of them through

[C]

Picnic and Hanging Rock.

[A]

Dangerously.

[C]

Yeah. And. And then did Master and Commander.

[B]

He came in Commander, he went on

[C]

John Seal, was the camera operator on.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Gallipoli. And then he also did Witness Mosquito

[B]

coast and had a great Hollywood career. I mean, he made so many.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, he did, like, Gorillas in the Mist, Rain Man, Children of a Lesser God, Mad Max, Fury Road. So, yeah, I think he's another genius.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's stuff like that that makes the Australian film world feel small like that. It's like. And then he, you know, he hooks up with George Miller at the end there. But, like, I know it's bigger than it seems. It's just these names loom so large, I think, for American viewers, like, you know, Peter Weir, George Miller.

[C]

Yeah, I think we punch above our weight, to be honest, in terms of, you know, the size of the industry. Because when I was looking at making that list of 10 favorite films, I got a bit depressed because I went on. I don't know, I checked a few sites, including Wikipedia, but that was the one that had most of the films. And there's not a lot of films that have come out of Australia, Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's also just fascinating, though, to what you were saying earlier that, you know, there's the American New Wave happening and the French New Wave happening, and both of them are happening in response to what are, like, massive film industries, but industries that have started to become a little staid and are dealing with the, like, you know, coming out of decades of things like the Hays Code and, like, the Nazi occupation and all these things that were, like, sure, really tight and restricting movies, and then the industry doesn't kind of know where it's at, and then they finally empower this, like, younger group of film school graduates to start making whatever the fuck they want, and they start making these films that are more wild and funny and out there, and genre films and political films and movies that are speaking to, like, the disenfranchisement and irritations of the moment. But that's like, films that are made in response to what those filmmakers were frustrated other films weren't tackling versus the Australian New Wave, as you're saying, were films made in response to what was going on in the culture, but they weren't responding to a deficit of Those films in conversation, they were responding to a deficit of movies, period. Right?

[C]

Yes. So to basically they were responding to a void, to an absolute void.

[A]

But then to come out of that and have the films be kind of so strong minded in their messaging and looking at the early weird stuff and even watching like Holmesdale and the early shorts and whatever, he feels very, very concerned from the get go with trying to work through the kind of like politics of the young people of Australia at that moment. And also like constantly trying to reckon with the history of the land he lives on and the murder cultural mess of that.

[C]

Yeah, I think he was just really true to himself. That's the feeling I get just from his films, not from knowing him, but, you know, that he had a certain kind of spiritual core that he wasn't afraid to kind of face and embrace. And that's what I'm feeling when I watch, especially those earlier films. I'm seeing that. I mean, even. Did you cover the Plumber?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, we did, we did.

[B]

Are you a fan of the Plumber? We just did it.

[C]

I love the Plumber. Oh, you just did it. Isn't it like. I mean, isn't it like, you know, when you get. I mean, when you get that, it's usually a guy, but when you get that person in your house and they start asking questions about your life or, you know, I had one in the other day, well, are you an artist? And I didn't like, he didn't know me, anything about me. And I said, oh. And then I started offering up information. I thought of the Plumber.

[A]

It is maybe my second greatest anxiety trigger behind war is people in my home asking me questions.

[B]

Yeah, it's a nice kind of very contained idea for whatever thriller, horror film, whatever you want to call the Plumber, but also a social comedy. I mean, the Plumber is quite funny.

[C]

It's funny. Yeah, it's funny. And I think he has this beautiful sense of humor, this very black Australian sense of humor. I don't know, does that translate? I guess in Green Card. That's quite a funny film.

[B]

Green Card's very funny, but Green Card's also so interesting. I'm a huge fan of Green Card, but it's also very sincere. It's also quite a sort of. It is a straightforwardly romantic movie, but yes, it is. The humor in it is not.

[C]

It's not just a rom com. Yeah, yeah, no, he and I think Gerard Depardieu is fantastic in that. I mean, it's many years since I've Seen that.

[A]

But, yeah, he is excellent in the movie. I wanna open up the dossier here.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm. This is our research, Jennifer. I'm just gonna take a look. So the last film he makes before this is the Last Wave. Yeah, yeah. So after that, Weir apparently takes a year off of filmmaking, decides that he needs to watch more movies to teach himself to be a better filmmaker. So he calls himself sort of a primitive filmmaker and says, like, I just. I started with DW Griffith, I watched Russian silent movies, I watch Hitchcock movies, I watched Chaplin movies, I watched French cinema, I watched, you know, whatever. He's basically doing a sort of syllabus for himself in the 70s, I guess. So he's probably doing mostly like, sort of pre war cinema, but he's going,

[A]

like, chronologically, region to region, like, filling in all the gaps of his understanding. This final sentence is so good.

[B]

Go ahead, read it. Right.

[A]

He said, I was astounded, astonished and fascinated with the great gift of these films and so glad that I hadn't looked at them earlier. If I had, I don't think I would have made films because I was at the bottom of the hill.

[C]

Oh, wow. Wow.

[A]

So when he says this whole kind of primitive film thing, and you do look at, like, Picnic at Hanging Rock and the Last Wave and Cars, Date of Paris, they're so accomplished and they're so clear in their vision, but they also do feel like outsider art in a certain way, almost on the level of what you're saying, Jennifer, of his spiritual connection, rather than them feeling like they're conforming to the rhythms you know, from other movies. And then he suddenly watches a bunch of other movies, realizes if he had known how differently he was doing things, he would have been too anxious to ever make anything right.

[C]

I mean, thank God he didn't watch other films that was going to be. Or even if it influenced those films and kind of polished the rough edges off them, I'd be disappointed in that.

[A]

You know, I have like three under his belt.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Then go through this whole hour.

[C]

Well, four if you count the plumber, which I know is like an hour.

[B]

No, you should count the plumber. Yeah, he's got four.

[A]

Yeah, the plumber. Happens right after the sabbatical of watching movies for a year. That's when he's in this state of, what do I do next? And the next thing he was trying to do was Year of Living Dangerously, which this ended up jumping ahead of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's also.

[B]

He's courted by Hollywood for the first time to make the Thornbirds, which is really. Yeah. Which is obviously set in Australia.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's based on a book.

[C]

Yeah. Colleen McCulloch. Yeah.

[B]

Herbert Ross had dropped out. Peter Weir is somewhat courted, but he basically realizes he's not right for the movie.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And he has this thing where he talks about how when he's trying to. When he's prepping to make a film, he gets this enormous collection of music that he has and he sort of picks out the tapes that he wants to listen to. I mean, it's the 70s, and I

[C]

do that now, though.

[B]

Right, right. And he just couldn't pick songs that were really sort of speaking to him for the Thornbirds. And he's thinking, like, I'm not right for this, but I can fudge it, I'll do it. And he's sitting at a bar afterwards and he's waiting for the writer to join him.

[A]

Like, why can't I find the sound of this movie? Why can't I find the song that triggers the right feeling for this?

[B]

And he says. And this is. He gives such interesting quotes in these interviews. He says he puts a swizzle stick in his mouth. He clenches it. He starts, like, making a buzzing noise with it. Basically.

[C]

Peter does.

[A]

Peter does.

[B]

And he says, you know, that's what my films are. They have the sound of tension to them. That's the fundamental sound I want. And I'm just not feeling it with the Thornbirds, you know, like, he's like, I'm not gonna be making a movie that has that kind of quality to it. So he drops out. That's how he describes dropping out of the project. It's very interesting.

[C]

It's so fantastic. And that was made into a miniseries, right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's ultimate with Richard Chamberlain. Richard Chamberlain, Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Because that's.

[B]

I mean, I haven't read it, but it's like an epic story.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's like a sort of generational, like an east of Eden type, sort of like, you know, 40 year story.

[C]

I think it was quite a pulpy, if I'm not trying to be disparaging. But, you know, it's a bit of a. Not quite a bodice ripper, but this is a priest from memory. Look, I don't even know if I've seen it, but a priest who gets, you know, falls in love with Rachel Ward's character. Yeah, it serves that purpose. I mean, maybe it's more. Maybe the book. I haven't read the book, but maybe the book is deeper Than that. But, yeah, I can see why it wouldn't. It wouldn't have his name on it. I can see that. Yeah.

[A]

The other crazy thing in this period of time is he almost makes what would become John Carpenter's the Thing.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

What?

[A]

I never heard this before.

[B]

He's offered what? You know, he's offered an adaptation of who Goes There, the short story, which had already been turned into the Thing from Another World.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Then he sees Ridley Scott's Alien and he's kind of like, well, that's really good. And that kind of has a vibe beyond that.

[A]

He was like, I feel like I'm close, but I can't quite crack the right way to dramatize this. And then he sees Alien and he's like, well, that's what I should have done. Right? And then he would have done.

[B]

Then he sees the Thing and he's like, that was also good, I don't think. You know, like, so, you know, that all works out.

[C]

Oh, my God, that's amazing. I didn't know that.

[A]

The two big things. Yeah. The Plumber comes about basically because he's at a dinner with a bunch of people, and the story gets told of someone having a similar experience. And he's like, that's a good idea for a movie. A producer at the table's like, well, you should do it.

[B]

Right? And he just does it.

[A]

I don't know if it's a full movie. And he goes, well, but there's this TV thing. You could do it quickly. And I think in him trying to get out of his head after this movie watching sabbatical year, he goes, I'll just make this. It'll be simple. I'll get it up on its feet. But then he makes this thing we referenced in the Plumber episode, Heart, Head and Hand, which is a documentary about ceramicists.

[B]

It's about a teacher called Peter Rushforth. I've never seen it. I don't know anything about it, but it's sort of a short film. Is that an actual documentary?

[C]

Documentary. It is an actual documentary. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, it's a short documentary. But the thing. I gotta find the quote here. The reason I bring it up and I haven't been able to find the thing to watch it, is that he basically changed his approach in terms of how he thought about how he made films. He said he learned from watching the way that ceramics treated their work to apply this craft over art motto.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And his quote is, he said, gallipoli was another period where I turned away from any sort of style, attempting to reinvent oneself properly. Probably some people who didn't care for the film as much as earlier films said, I missed your style, or I preferred the earlier films. And I said, well, style is just another tool for me. I don't ever want to be trapped by style.

[C]

Don't want to make it. You know, I think, like watching it with such distance now, as in, you know, so long ago since I saw it. I do think his soul is in that film. In Gallipoli, I mean, 100%. It's very. It's very intimate, actually. I mean, a lot of it is really about two people in a frame or four people in a frame. And yeah, sure, there's some dance. You know, there's like that tragic scene where Bill Hunter's character realizes that they're going to war the next day, so he lets them have a drink, you know, but they're not. It's not epic. I wouldn't call that film. There are some sort of crowd scenes that would have cost money. But I don't. I feel it's still a very human, intimate film. It's him. It's still him.

[A]

I think it's an anti epic in a really interesting way because it does have the scale and the production way.

[B]

It has some scale.

[A]

Yeah, some scale. You know, some scale. It has the locations and the big sweeping vistas at times and all of that, but it's actually eluding all of the obvious story beats you expect in a kind of epic tale set against the backdrop of a war.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, it's nothing like Come and see the Ellen Klimov film, but. But that is also an intimate to anti war, if you can call these films anti war. But, you know, that is also two people in a scene and mostly following one or two or three people.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, come and see, that is also. I mean, Gallipoli is. It's, you know, it's a mundane thing in a way. Like all these boys were just told, like, go over the. Come and see, you know. Right. It's about an atrocity. Like, it's like.

[A]

It's so hard to watch.

[B]

So very.

[C]

I mean. And like, it's a surreal nightmare, that film. It's like it. From the first frame, you know, this boy is wondering what he's doing and he's pulling a gun out of the sand. I mean, it's one of my favorite films.

[B]

It's very cool. I can see that it would be a film that had influenced some of the stuff you did. I mean, I Can.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

The big animating idea that I just got really hung up on here in the dossier is, he said. And it's sort of what got him starting about the idea of how to make a war movie. A thing he had in considered before is he read an interview with Ingmar Bergman where he had said, you can do most anything on screen except kill somebody. And that's where you can't suspend disbelief. And Weir kind of took that as a challenge.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And just said, that wasn't a bad observation. But you can achieve everything with the suspension of disbelief, which is a Samuel Taylor Coleridge phrase. In war films, you see all kinds of injuries, like arms and heads blown off and people dying. The horror of war. But I thought, what if you didn't see much of that? What if you just killed one person whom you've gotten to know and like. And that was part of my structure, apart from the key vision that these were young athletes at the peak of their condition. And it's like. Right. That's the whole idea of the movie of you have these guys who seem kind of blissfully unaware of what lies ahead of them, and you just kind of string along the tension of, okay, but when is everything gonna get bad? And instead you're going to end literally at the moment the guy dies. You know.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, spoiler.

[A]

The movie is just leading to. Yeah. Just a flash frame.

[C]

Yeah. And you know what? Like, it's such a. To me, like, a lot of German films end on a freeze frame. And it really annoys me.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because it's generally.

[A]

Don't.

[C]

It's a stylistic thing. But here is the only. I think the only film I can think of where I cannot think of a better ending. It's like a bullet to your own chest, that ending. And it's the thing. At 10 years old, I remember. I remember freeze frame. And obviously not a filmmaker at that age, but it really worked on me.

[A]

It's also so funny for this film to come out of him being like, okay, challenge accepted. How do you put a realistic death on screen? And yet he builds this movie that's a machine to narratively get to that point and earn it.

[C]

But I don't know. But the movie on the scene ends

[A]

before you actually have to kind of watch the guy die. He does evade showing you that in a way. In a way, he shows you the

[C]

moment of the impact. Yeah. That's the thing. And maybe it was just the mood I was in or whatever, but I really. I really. It took me an hour or more to really come out of that state of, you know, really hit me hard watching it. I just. I think I'd been watching news all day, actually, and just feeling despairing for humanity.

[A]

I was going to say it's probably. That's probably a bad way to pre game Gallipoli is remind yourself what's going on in the world today.

[B]

I watched it while my children were napping and woke up, I had to just turn.

[C]

Had you seen it?

[B]

Go get them up. I think I had maybe seen it in school. Truly, I don't. I could not remember this movie at all. Like, I. If I saw it, it was in high school, so I don't really remember. And I just sort of forgot, like, the entire sort of storytelling approach he took and then was kind of blown away by it because I did keep thinking of Platoon, which I do. I. I don't know how consciously Stone is borrowing from it, but Platoon gets you into Vietnam fairly quickly. Like, Platoon is not mostly concerned with them. Not, you know, like. You know, like. And. Whereas this is the opposite. This is basically like the first battle that they're going to do, is the last batt going to do, and it's right at the end of the film.

[C]

And I. I mean, this is a sort of a random segue, but I think the film Wolf Creek actually does too, to very different effect. But you're, you know, you're. I mean, the slasher. If you call. I'm not calling Wolf Creek necessarily a slasher, but, you know, it's like a video. It's like a video game. Normally, that genre, you just go, oh, another one, another one. But here, yeah, I think it's like an.

[B]

In a fine way, like, you're like, yeah, I can't wait to see what the next one is. Right?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. But with these three, you know, you spend an hour with them and you think, oh, they're idiots, but they're kind of endearing and charming. And then, you know, the shit hits the fan. And that's what makes that film terrifying, is the emotional investment. And I think here as well, you. You invest. But I just want to ask you, what did Bergman mean by that? Because I don't quite understand what he's saying. So he felt that if you showed a death on screen, people weren't going to believe it. Is that what he.

[A]

My interpretation is that he was saying that it is the hardest thing for audiences to suspend their disbelief on, because it is the thing that you can't really. There's no way to show an even partially real version of it in front of cameras.

[C]

Right. Is that because people are, like, looking for the flutter of the eyelid or the chest?

[B]

I mean, it's hard to. I can't find whatever quote he's referencing. This is through weird.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I see it.

[A]

But as an actor, it's playing a thing you have no experience of actually living through. And as an audience, you know, it's kind of weirdly the fakest thing on screen because. Yes, yes, two main actors can kiss and they're not really in love, but they can go through the motion of kissing.

[B]

But, yeah, nobody's dying.

[A]

Right. And I think Weir's point was the way death usually is depicted on films is like in a war film, you show bloody squibs going off. You know, you show crazy explosions. And you don't get the intimacy of death, but you get the kind of, like the viscera of death. And to try to do that, that

[C]

is really interesting, you know, because when I look at this film, everyone dies, but no one is shown dying.

[B]

Yeah. So Gimson. But that's it.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, gives.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So people. But the people who die, die off screen, or it's like they die off screen.

[B]

They fall down.

[C]

Yeah. Like snow. It's snowy. We know he's on the way out and that. But, you know Mel Gibson's character. Jack. Is it Jack?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, Frank. Frank, Frank, Frank. Jack is Bill Carrer. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Frank leaves before it happens, of course. And you know, the other Barney, it's like, Barney's dead. He just. And that's devastating to hear that news because that's how people did hear it, you know.

[A]

Right. Rather than getting a big platoon style fall to your knees with Barbara playing.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You just get a telephone.

[C]

Like, I remember my dad, who was too young for World War II, but his brothers weren't. They were quite a bit older. And I didn't know my granddad because he died before I was born, but my dad said to me that when conscription came around, my granddad would hide his sons in the cupboard so they wouldn't be taken away. And that, to me, is devastating. Yeah. And that's the face of war. Like at the beginning when his uncle says, I can't even remember what he. But his response almost made me. I choked up at his uncle's response, knowing that this beloved nephew is going off to war. And the thing that the setup of

[A]

the movie is that, like, this kid has a kind of future ahead of him. That's Clear.

[C]

He does. Yeah.

[A]

He has such an extraordinary ability.

[C]

Well, also. And this probably isn't maybe meaningful for audiences outside of Australia, but I think the unsung hero in this movie is Mark Lee. Like, the actor. I think his performance is so beautiful and innocent, and there's something so real about it. And, you know, he. He didn't go on to be Mel Gibson. He.

[B]

Right. He's. He's an Australian actor who. He's an Australian actor in Australia, basically.

[C]

Yeah. And I think. I don't think. I mean, look, he was on this show called the Restless Years while he was doing this, and then he went back to that and that. And that's kind of like young and. No, like, what are your shows?

[B]

Like a soap opera, right?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Like. Like a long running, you know, Days of Our Lives kind of. So popular and so I think. But I also think his goal wasn't to conquer the world as a person. I saw him in a lot of stage plays when I was a lot of fun, studying to be an actor at nida. And, you know, he was around then doing. And a beautiful actor. Like, it wasn't. Like, he wasn't deserving of more. But see, in the 80s, I mean. Cause I graduated in the year above Cate Blanchett and S.E. davis at NIDA. And if we said we were going to Hollywood to be actors, we would have been laughed out of the room. You know, it was really only after that that.

[B]

That starts to Hollywood.

[C]

Yeah. When Kate and Nicole and Russell Crowe and all these people. But it was. But. But at this stage, when Gallipoli was made, 81 actors weren't doing that. And I think if Mel Gibson didn't have that dual citizenship, he probably would not have either or would have been much more difficult if he wasn't actually born in America.

[A]

He's such a fascinating case, but I even think beyond that, there just was this energy around him of everyone going like, holy shit, we have divided. We have discovered a new element. We need to figure out how to, like, build industries around this.

[B]

Mel Gibson.

[C]

Mel Gibson, yeah. Yeah. I mean, he was a force of nature. It was kind of, you know, Mad Max. I mean, he's so wonderful in the original Mad Max.

[A]

I mean, he's talking, Jennifer, about, like, this small group of filmmakers punching above their weight class. It is crazy. Not just, like, we've already kind of established this thing where seeing the Cars that Ate Paris as the thing that inspires George Miller to make Mad Max Peter weird. Oh, I didn't know that inspires him. To go, fuck, I should make something for Mel Gibson.

[B]

Well, let me tell you, let me tell you.

[C]

Right, right, right.

[B]

It really interests me because he meets with Mel Gibson, I think, for Last Waiver, an earlier film. And when he meets him, he says, like, look, I don't think I'm gonna cast you in this. I don't think it makes sense for it. You're not old enough, but I really wanted to meet you. And then so he brings him back for Gallipoli and he says, look, I've cast Mark Lee, who's this, like, angelic Australian boy, like. And that's who he's playing. And I need someone who feels modern. And you feel modern, like. Because I need someone who's gonna resonate with, like, contemporary viewers, you know, in.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Because Mark is this, you know, feels like he's from an angel. Exactly. He feels like he's from decades ago, whereas you feel like a more real person. But also Gibson is relating that. But I believe it completely because that is how he feels in the movie. You're like, this guy's a little out of, you know, out of the ordinary. Like, you know, the way he's behaving early in the film.

[C]

But he still feels time period too. He still feels of the time, like.

[A]

Right. And the additional layer is this is the guy who survives. Right. That this is so much an end of innocence movie for we're through the prism of this specific character. But also that, like, this is a turning point in the history of Australia.

[B]

That's what I wanted to ask you, Jennifer. Right. Like that. Yeah, this is the context. I only have a little bit. But Gallipoli is the moment when Australians are like, why are we serving the British Empire? Right. Like, you know, like, it's the. It's a very definitive sort of transformational moment for the country a little bit in terms of, like, why have we been shipped, you know, halfway across the world to fight a war that barely, you know, advised?

[C]

I think we've. I think we've always had that towards the Brits. I think there's. We were, especially in that period, seen as kind of like the. The scum, you know, in the base,

[B]

sort of second class.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Like, my friend went to. To. To work in England as an actress and. And one of the. And he's very famous, but I won't mention who. But he said, oh, you're from the Antipodes to her, you know, and it's like, ah. And he mentioned her name and he said, ah, Susan. I had a Char. Woman called Susan as a child, you know, it was. It was sort of really playing on that class system. Whereas Australians. The brilliant thing about living in Australia is we. We don't have an active class system, even though we came from this very sort of regimented class system of Britain.

[B]

Yeah, no, I think that's right. That's one of the, you know, worst things about Britain is. I mean, which. As living there, obviously I was sort of outside the class system because I was American. Right. So, yeah, I wouldn't fall into the weird traps, but then I would see others. It was like, oh, yeah. If you taught, you know, the word you used to describe dinner or the bathroom, like, immediately slots you in, you know, to a sort of. Into a sort of social class for everybody else.

[C]

Yes, definitely. I think it's gotten better, I think, you know, as the world becomes more sort of homogenized. But on that point, I actually felt sad last night watching it on some level, beyond the tragedy of the film that I'm watching these iconic Australian actors who are really Aussie, who are really Australian.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And I'm seeing our history and this beautiful Australian culture. I mean, it's also. It's not perfect. Like, I think, you know, I know that from the Nightingale. But there.

[B]

But there, yes, you have confronted Australian history.

[C]

Yeah. But that. That there's a. An identity that I feel has been lost. And I would say that across the board.

[B]

Right.

[C]

That.

[B]

That kind of guys you're seeing in these movies exist anymore.

[C]

No, because now it's, you know, and no slight on you guys. But there's an Americanization of Australia and culture. And it's sad. I feel it's sad because I want to see. I mean, I want to see Australian films about Australian concerns.

[A]

But this is an interesting question, like, how much is Mel Gibson, the canary in the coal mine for that? Talking about his weird kind of like dual identity. Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that beyond just thinking he was a talented actor and, you know, seeing him in Mad Max and the fact that Mad Max had crossed over to the States more. One of the motivating things for Weir in trying to find a project to do with Mel Gibson was an understanding that the American studios were interested in Mel Gibson.

[C]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

That Mel Gibson already, just from the first Mad Max and even more so after Road Warrior was like, hollywood is interested in this guy, Right. How do we build a bridge to him? If any Australians are making movies with him, we're more interested in importing them over here. And if anyone can help us figure out how to translate him into a Hollywood star that's infinitely valuable to us.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's this weird thing about him where he's like, one foot in both worlds. Yeah.

[C]

Yes. But I think he very quickly became. This is like, absolutely no judgment because he was born in America, but he became American. I mean, there would be audience out there who don't even know he's Australian.

[A]

I. I remember that he had any

[C]

time in Australia because he, you know,

[B]

and his child had an accent.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then he was in movies like the Patriot. I mean, he was. He was playing. He went full America. Like, he made all these sort of war movies and, like, you know, he really leaned into it.

[A]

But then it also means that a lot of the other, like, Amer Australian exports who crossed over into Hollywood were guys where it was like, well, how good's your American accent?

[C]

Sure. Yes.

[A]

You know, the fact that they, like, let Heath Ledger be Australian in 10 Things I Hate about you is unusual because very often it was. We like your kind of rugged masculinity. But can we add a little bit of, like, American oorah on top of that and then we'll let you through the doors.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, Mel was, you know, he was a pioneer in opening up the talent pool of amazing actors that come out of this country, you know, and it's just been an avalanche of them ever since. I feel, compared to our population size, there's so many beautiful actors here.

[B]

So the other thing I don't know much about Jennifer is that, like, this is Western Australia. Right. Like the start of the movie, you know, where he's from, which I feel like is a unique part of the country in and of itself. Right. Like, because it's so massive and it's kind of hugely underpopulated. It's mostly desert. I don't, like. Does this capture the culture of that part of the country very, like, deeply.

[C]

Well, I think it's very true to the fact, like, Perth is the most isolated city in the world. It's the furthest away from any other major city, I think. Yeah, I think it very beautifully demonstrated that. That you. You know that great scene where we were mentioning before of the guy saying, oh, is there war going on? I can imagine that. I can imagine.

[B]

Especially back then.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think. I think that's very true.

[B]

Just to get a little more research. Right. So Weir, does we mention him? He goes to Turkey. He visits the beaches. He's very stirred by it. He brings in David Williamson, who. He. Who is a sort Of a playwright, first and foremost, who he talked to about Picnic and Hanging Rock, but they hadn't actually worked on it. And first they're like, okay, do we do, you know, a sort of full accounting of Gallipoli? Like, you know, enlistment, you know, the evacuation of Gallipoli, the whole, you know, do we try to do a sort of big thing? And then they, they just sort of narrow it down to make up a story about two men. Like it's not a true story like, or anything like that. They're like, let's just make this much more oblique.

[A]

What's also allegorical. Like this whole notion for him of this was a loss of innocence moment for the Australian identity. Have character who represents that innocence down to the point that he will die in the name of a meaningless cause, that he will go out and walk straight into his death to represent an

[B]

ideal, you know, Gallipoli. Winston Churchill was very involved in Gallipoli. Like there were early drafts that had Winston Churchill as a character. Like they had a completely, you know, wide aspect, you know, can be a bit boring.

[A]

Incredibly boring.

[B]

I mean, it would be an encyclopedia article.

[A]

That's the kind of movie that immediately turns me off.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, I like it, you like it, but yes.

[C]

I mean, it's interesting historically, but when you take something down to the super personal and it becomes epic actually emotionally there's room for it to be that. Whereas if you've got all these scenes with like masses of. I mean, there are battle scenes there, but it's not focused on that. It's actually very intimately shot. Then it tells you the story of this whole battle that was pointless, I think.

[A]

Yes,

[C]

I'm with you, Griff. I feel. Yeah, yeah. I feel like it showed in a nutshell how pointless the whole battle was without shadow.

[A]

I think our brains process these things in similar ways, Jennifer. And it is that thing of like if I just see a sprawling battle scene of 80,000 people killing each other, my brain kind of turns off. Cause I can't even calculate what I'm seeing. And I've lost the personal connection to that beyond just like ideologically not understanding how anything could get to that place. You know, once we've evolved into having conversation or other options, emails, other abilities to work out issues. But yes, this is a movie that keeps everything framed through such a personal lens and such a tight kind of two person story. And even the kind of biggest scenes you see are when they're doing like the battleground training in the desert. Yes. And it's just Like a bunch of boys wrestling each other in a backyard, basically.

[C]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, even that. How amazing. How amazing was that scene where they were incredible. All play acting, dying.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

It's just so beautifully structured, this film. And I think, going back to that intimacy, as a filmmaker, I am much more attracted to that style of filmmaking myself. You know, I'm working on a sci fi that looks to be shooting this year.

[A]

That is so awesome. That is so cool. Whoa.

[C]

Okay. And very exciting. But it's an adaptation of something. But even though the. The subject matter is huge, the film is kind of somewhat intimate. And I personally. I mean, big films can be amazing. And I mean, I watched Ben Hur recently. Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah. Well, Ben Hur. You can't believe that they made it.

[C]

You can't believe.

[B]

I almost can't believe it was made.

[C]

Yeah. It's a brilliant film. And so I'm not saying, oh, I don't like those, but to make them, I would never choose to make a big, big film. So that's why a film like Gallipoli just is my happy place.

[B]

Yeah. If you told me you were making, like, a gigantic action epic, I would be surprised, given the films of yours I've seen so far, I would be like, oh, I didn't know you were.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. I just need to call out.

[B]

Yes, truly.

[A]

Two weeks ago, Jennifer David just texted. Apropos of nothing. You know what scene really pops in Ben Hur? The chariot race.

[B]

I mean, it was a joke.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

But yes, of course.

[A]

But you were rewatching it.

[B]

No, someone else was. Someone else.

[C]

But you know what. But you know what's amazing about that film? And I. Look, maybe it's not true, but no one died.

[B]

I think no one died. Maybe a horse. I mean, I'm not sure. No, no horses.

[C]

No horses. No horses. Unless they're telling us fibs.

[B]

They might be telling us fibs. Who knows?

[C]

But, you know, unlike other productions of the period, no one. No animal or human died on that. That's crazy. And watching it, it's so dangerous, right? When you're watching it, you're thinking, this is gonna. Someone's instantly. Like, they're gonna crash any second. And, you know, it's. I mean, for real.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's sort of like Mad Max as well. I mean, like, that's the. The magic of the Mad Max movies.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Guys, it's time to believe in the Hail Mary project. Hail Mary. That is one of the most beloved adventure stories by Andy Weir big book. It's now a major motion pictures. There's never been a better time to immerse yourself in the bestselling audiobook. Right. The movie's coming out. Listen to the book.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

All right, so I'll tell you what it's about. There's the sole survivor of a desperate last chance mission in space. Ryland Grace is the character. He's gotta save the Earth from disaster in an incredible science based thriller. The fan favorite narrator Ray Porter brings every moment to life with humor, heart and pulse pounding tension. So that's a guy reading the book now. Blockbuster movies finally arrived in theaters. Never been a better time to start listening to the universally acclaimed audiobook. Part science mystery, part dazzling interstellar journey. Project Hail Mary is a tale of discovery, speculation and survival. Listen to the audiobook available on Audible. And the movie starring Ryan Gosling is in theaters now. That's project Hail Mary. Listen Watch Save the world. Listen [e-mail] Hailmary.

[A]

David. Yes, over on Blank Check special features. Yes, our Patreon feed. Oh, we're engaging in Mortal Kombat.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

We are covering the four Mortal Kombat movies. Mortal Kombat, Mortal Kombat, Annihilation, annihilation, Mortal

[B]

Kombat 2021 and Mortal Kombat 2. That one's gonna be. I'll be commentary because that'll be a new release.

[A]

Yes, we're gonna. We're gonna talk about these movies. We're gonna talk about fighting. We're gonna talk about Jax, his robot arms. We're going to talk about how Mortal Kombat fighters gimmicks relate to their genitalia a lot.

[B]

Yeah, I think there's a couple riffs on that.

[A]

We got Mike Mitchell from the Doughboys on the Annihilation episode.

[B]

Yeah. Mitch is with us.

[A]

We're talking a lot about video games in general. David says some really rude things about my favorite video games of all time.

[B]

He's being Clayfighter 63 and a third. Might have taken a couple hits.

[A]

A pretentious grump might have taken a couple. And it's taken a few therapy sessions to work through the slanderous things he says in those episodes. But I think they're worth a listen. And then also we will be covering Peter Weir's the Plumber and we will be covering Edge of Tomorrow as a Ben's Choice one time.

[B]

Hell yeah. So we're kicking off the commentary series today, March 21st. Available over at patreon.com blankcheck. This film is Funded by Rupert Murdoch. Yeah, Associated R and R. I know,

[C]

I saw that at the beginning and I was like, oh my God, it's cast.

[A]

It basically was single handedly funded by

[B]

him and Robert Stigwood, who's the guy who made Grease, produced Grease and Saturday Night Fever.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And Murdoch is basically like, you know, let's make a movie in Australia. I mean, I don't know how else to describe.

[A]

They form this company, this ends up being the only film they ever make. But to your point, Jennifer, they basically were like, it seems like something's going on in Australia and they hire like an American film executive and they're like go there and like give us a rundown on the scene. And he's like, I've seen every Australian movie over the last two months and there are like 12 extraordinary filmmakers here. There's absolutely a scene that's worth putting money into and they were very committed to that as a long term project. And then this ends up being a one and done.

[C]

Right. So. But, but Peter Weir formed the idea first and then approached.

[B]

Yeah, he's been trying to make a while. I think like he spent a lot of 1979 trying to get it made. Some investors withdrew, he starts working on other stuff and then they come in and they fund cost 3 million Australian dollars, which was the most the highest budget in Australian movie had ever gotten at that point. But obviously not incredibly high budget.

[C]

No, no. And what's that probably about 25 now or something.

[B]

Right. I mean it's, it's not, it's not insane. It's well below obviously what American films cost at the time. So yeah, as I said about Gibson, like he was basically like, you know, brought in because he already has a lot of heat. But also because Weir loves the contrast between him and Mark Lee.

[C]

Yes. Perfect casting.

[B]

Right. Mark Lee was sort of something of an unknown I think that they just sort of found doing like a photo call.

[A]

He was on the show, I think

[B]

that he started doing around the time or whatever.

[C]

Yeah. So he wasn't a big star or anything.

[A]

Mark Clay, like the embarrassment of riches in this moment of this like generation of talent all coming up together. Is that Russell Boyd's the dp, but John Seal is the camera operator. And John Seal basically had already ascended to being a dp, but everyone was like, this kind of feels like the big graduation movie for the Australian film industry.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So we'll all just jump on board and work on this one together.

[B]

Oh, but this is interesting, Jennifer, you'll be interested to hear this about Mark Lee. Apparently, while he's doing Gallipoli, he tells Peter Weir, Milos Forman is offering the Mozart in Amadeus.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And he says, like, I'm not into it. I'm not gonna do it.

[C]

And, oh, my God.

[A]

You know.

[B]

And Weir says, like, look, he said in Australia, he had kids. He kept it simple.

[A]

This is a Gibson quote.

[B]

Oh, no. Mel Gibson says that. Sorry. Yeah. It's not.

[C]

Yeah, Gibson. Oh, what? Mel Gibson was offered.

[B]

No, no. Mark Lee was offered it. Gibson just recollects him basically saying, like, I'm not gonna do it.

[C]

See, that's what I mean about Mark. I just have this feeling that he didn't want to set the world on fire. I know that he's also a musician. Like, he had bands in Sydney for many years and would play live. His brother's a musician as well. It's just not everyone wants that life. Right. Because it's not the greatest to be a star.

[A]

The fascinating quote, because this is coming from Gibson, who is recounting Mark Lee's experience.

[C]

Right?

[B]

And Mel Gibson is someone who, I think even Mel Gibson, for his flaws, would admit stardom made him insane.

[A]

Like, yes, I could read the quote. And this is from a 2001 interview. Mark Gibson, Mel Gibson, recounts the Amadeus thing. And he said, so it's a choice you make, in a sense. I don't think the full consequences of it hit me till later. And I think Mark had more of an insight into it. He stayed in Australia, got married, had some kids. He wanted to keep it simple, didn't want it to get nuts.

[B]

Right.

[A]

For Mel Gibson to. In 2001, say, I think that guy maybe had it figured out how to not go crazy.

[C]

Oh, my God. And what was Mel doing around that time? Was he directing, like, kind of that stage?

[B]

It's when he's still a huge star, but the wheels are coming off pretty soon after. It's like signs in the patriot.

[A]

Yeah, 2000 is patriot chicken Run. And what was the senior?

[C]

He was like, top of the pile in Hollywood.

[A]

He was the highest paid actor in Hollywood. And he's like calling like, hey, I guess maybe that guy kind of had a good idea.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But that's. I mean, you know, in this movie, it's like this grand tragedy that this young man doesn't get to live. There is a similar thing, even though the outcomes are very different of this guy kind of stayed true to his vision of his notion of what he wanted his career to be in Australia and maintain some sense of like sanity and privacy.

[C]

That's what I mean. Yeah. That's what I was talking about before. Of the resonance of this actor who kind of effectively disappeared. Yeah.

[A]

Right, right.

[C]

I mean, of course he didn't.

[B]

No.

[A]

Without being insulted in his spirit.

[B]

There's like an innocence to the fact that he's preserved for many viewers is just the guy in Gallipoli.

[C]

That's right. And like a mosquito in amber, you know, he's this perfect angel.

[A]

But it's all accounts also, like, happy and balanced, you know? And then the Mel Gibson character in this movie, the whole film is like, building to this guy, seeing how bad things are about to go and trying desperately running in circles to do anything he can to stop it. And he is powerless. And all he can do is just choose to. As Mel Gibson put it, he has the power to be a coward in this moment, which is the smart thing to do, but he doesn't save anyone else.

[C]

But can you imagine just on a level of war trauma, if that character was real? Like, you know, that like the Survivor's Guild, those screams of, you know, Mel Gibson's character towards the. At the very end when he realizes he's missed. It's just blood curdling. You know, it's horrible. And that human would never get over that. Never get over. Cause it wasn't just one man that went up over the trench. It was all of them.

[A]

It's meta technical stuff that only you can apply 40 years after knowing the branching paths of people in their careers. But it is, like, right there is like the kind of survivor's guilt that you gain to push through whatever you need to push through to become the level of movie star that he did.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Which isn't to say that you have to, like, throw people in front of a train to get $20 million a movie. But there is that kind of, like, perseverance and pressure that does tend to break people.

[C]

Yeah. And it's interesting that they've gone similar ways to their. I mean, Mark is still alive, so he didn't die. But it's perfect casting.

[A]

Philosophically. It weirdly, like, lines up and then this is the movie on the precipice of weird, like, tentatively going, like, do I go to Hollywood?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the next film, you know, is. You're living dangerously.

[C]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

Is an Australian, American sort of co production.

[C]

It's a hybrid.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then Witness is the film after that, in which he's basically.

[C]

Which is a beautiful film.

[B]

Yeah. It's a Witness is an incredible film. I mean, it's. It's one of my favorites.

[C]

Do you guys feel that there was something lost in. In that. In that migration?

[B]

I mean, I think that he's an incredible Hollywood filmmaker and he made great movies here. But, yes, there is. There is something very whole about those first few films. Right. Like, there's. There's. And like that. That you don't. You know, he made really good movies in Hollywood, but, like, you don't see it in the Hollywood movies in the same way. There's a soulfulness to his Hollywood movies, so that. That never goes away.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, even a film like Fearless has a deep kind of spiritual.

[B]

Yeah, it does. And, you know, I guess it's like things like Witness, Fearless, Green Card, even Dead Poet Society. He makes great movies about outsiders. Like, he makes great movies about feeling out of yourself. The Truman show is like a masterpiece of that. Right? Like.

[A]

Well, yeah, I saw Clashing against each Other.

[B]

Right, yeah, right.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, I saw.

[B]

He's very good at that. But he also. I mean, the stories you hear with, you know, in our research about the Hollywood movies is like, he's just an extremely consummate professional. Like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's, you know, he's being handed other people's scripts, and he's coming in and he's going like, yeah, I think I know how to do this in a really good way. Like, he. It's a little less the story of, like, oh, right, I had a weird dream and began a creative process. You know, like, you don't hear that

[A]

as well, but you're right that few people have successfully, like, survived that transition better than him. Yeah, he did. Right.

[B]

I mean, he had a fantastic career.

[C]

I mean, the people that I think thrived in the migration to America were the European Jewish community. I mean, they, you know, went across and created film noir in a way right off the back of German Expressionism. This kind of bleak way of looking at the world that I don't know if Hollywood would make films like that anymore.

[A]

That's a great point, though. I think, in a way, like, the way I look at his career in a smaller quantity is similar to Fritz Lang, where I love his German work so much.

[B]

And then the American films are so, so interesting.

[A]

But it's like two distinct chapters of his career. They're both great. I would be more frustrated, I think, if we were doing this series and you're like, oh, Peter Weir only made two Australian films before he jumped over to Hollywood. And if the Hollywood films were of a lesser integrity, it would be more frustrating the fact that he has kind of a whole proper career of Australian films, that he has this five film arc. And I would have loved to see him do more, but there's also enough there. And then when he goes to Hollywood, it's like Fritz Lang doing noir, where it's like, well, this is not entirely driven by his personal motivation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[A]

But he's finding a way to add a thing and he can tell stories

[B]

in a minor key. And like Jennifer's saying, like, that's, that's so new, like, and feels so different.

[C]

And maybe he would have made those kind of films here anyway. He would have graduated. I'm not saying he could have because we don't have the money, we don't have the stars. But what I mean is I don't think he was selling out or not being true, which is sort of.

[B]

That's the cause, like, you do see a lot of Australian and New Zealand filmmakers go to Hollywood and they make like genre movies and they're not bad, you know, like, they're not like, you know, but like, I think of Jeff Murphy, right? Like, who's like an incredible New Zealand filmmaker.

[A]

But even Philip Noyce is someone. Or Philip Noyce goes from being like, oh, this guy makes great genre films too. Oh, he's kind of doing paychecky stuff. And then when he does rabbit proof fence, it's like, now he's getting to what he cares about versus the paychecks. It did feel like there was a consistency across Weir's entire career.

[C]

Yeah. And I mean, I know that personally, you know, having turned down many films.

[B]

Right. I'm sure you got brought.

[A]

I cannot even imagine.

[B]

Still, no offense to it because it's fine, like, it's fine to make these movies, but.

[C]

But you, but you also suffer by not accepting, right?

[B]

Because then they're like, well, you don't want to play the game then. Then what do we need you for?

[C]

Well, then, you know, your own. The investment in your own projects can mean that there's few, like, longer years between.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So I understand when you would get

[A]

offered those types of things. What was the kind of calculation you were doing in sort of like how to test if you felt like there was a worthwhile opportunity there versus, you know, the dangers?

[C]

I mean, I'm a writer, director, and I would love to direct other people's things, but unfortunately it's just, just I haven't had those scripts come that make me go, oh, you Know, I get like the goosebump test where I just feel. So I have to. Cause I have to be deeply connected to something, like on a very deep level. Because you're going to stick with this story for a number of years, so it has to be meaningful. And, you know, I didn't watch Marvel films, so why would I want to direct them? Right. It's. It's not. It's no slight on that, but it's knowing. And I mean, you know, I have like six scripts piled up that just no one wants to make. But no, I mean, that.

[A]

That's. David's got a pile of money.

[B]

I got 100 bucks.

[C]

No, I mean, that's not true because they're. They're actually. There's a few down. It's an investment because there's a few now that are. That are backed up and. But I'm very devoted to them. And I think being a writer, director, I mean, these films actually, I don't know if Peter wrote. Did he write Mosquito Coast?

[A]

He was he rare Once he goes to America.

[B]

I feel like Green Card is the rare movie that he wrote himself. By and large, in America. He's making other people's scripts now. He's working on the scripts or whatever, but it's just Green Card and then Master and Commander are the. And then the Way Back, his final film. He wrote all of those. But obviously in America he was. I mean. Sorry. In Australia, he's. He's credited as a writer on. On, you know, Gallipoli.

[A]

He has story credit, but not screenplay

[B]

on Last Wave or Cars.

[A]

They Paris, Year of Living Dangerously. His full screen credit.

[B]

Yeah, he would work with. He would collaborate. I feel like he's always been a fairly sort of. He collaborates with other writers who.

[C]

With her. But not strictly writer director.

[B]

He's not a full sort of. Yeah. Proper OTOR type. You know, that's not really.

[C]

Like. I'm. I'm very close mates with Justin Cell, who.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

We covered his film Assassin's Creed on this podcast.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Probably.

[B]

He probably would love. Producer Ben's a big fan. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of the movie. Not so much the games.

[C]

Oh, really? Oh, I'll tell him. I'll tell him that.

[A]

Please do.

[B]

Please do.

[C]

It's not his finest hour from his perspective.

[B]

Sure. From our perspective it is. But come on. I think it's so fun. I revisit all the time. It's such a comfort watch for me.

[A]

Yeah. Jennifer, the reason we covered it on the show Is that Ben had a period of months where he would watch it every night to try to fall asleep. And it wasn't as some backhanded, this movie bores me way. It was that he found it so comforting that it was the movie that could calm his anxieties.

[B]

I was in a bad relationship at the time and I never played the game. I just was like, Assassins, I can fuck with that. But wait, wait, wait. Jennifer, why did you bring up Justin? I'm sorry. I realized.

[C]

Well, the reason I brought him up is because he's a brilliant director.

[B]

He is.

[C]

And he's a. I mean, Nitram and Snowtown. Snowtown's on my, you know, top 10 list.

[A]

But he incredible movie.

[C]

He is a great. I mean, he's also in there, I think a director who makes films with other people's scripts, it's not like they just mail him the script and then he goes, okay, and now we're ready to shoot.

[A]

It's very much feels very personal and individualistic.

[C]

He's very involved in script. But I, you know, I'm envious because it means he can make more films, right?

[B]

He can take on a project a little faster, right?

[C]

Yeah. And he may have four or five. I can't write four or five. I can maybe write three scripts, maximum a year before I have to go on a holiday and have a sleep. But he can work on more. I think directors who don't necessarily write their own stuff or all of it can be more prolific. I think even Tarantino has said that. He said, I've got to write the thing. He's actually producing the film that we're making. Oh, really, Justin?

[A]

Oh, Kurzel.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I am just realizing in real time, Jennifer, just because Ben is behind the producer console and he's not on the computer screen, I'm realizing just to paint a picture for you, Ben is kind of an American lyrican.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. I'm from New Jersey, kind of the

[A]

outback of the States.

[B]

I was a smoker for many years.

[C]

Do you like beer?

[B]

You've had your boisterous days. I like to knock back a couple of cold ones from time to time.

[C]

The major, I don't know, Div, if what you would think here, but the major quality of Alaric and I think is to bullshit you.

[B]

Yeah, right. Kind of. It's sort of like a trickster, right? Like a kind of like a, you know.

[A]

Now, Ben, you're very honest, but you also do love swindler bits.

[B]

I don't know. Yeah.

[A]

And you may be now, like, doing

[C]

a bit, only for a laugh, not to say something. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I remember when I watched Barry Lyndon for the first time, I was like. Like, relating to this Irish scoundrel. Yes, yes.

[C]

It comes from. It actually comes from Ireland, I think it's, you know, we have a huge sort of Irish lineage here.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So, yeah, it's probably an Irish thing, actually. Very.

[A]

It's all coming together.

[B]

The other word is mateship. Right. Which is sort of like. That's a very Australian word for, like, kind of brotherhood or whatever you want to call it.

[C]

Oh, yeah, definitely. And that's. That's the essence of Gallipoli. Right?

[B]

That's what Weir says is the essence.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what we realized we were making a movie about, was about mateship, which is why they have things like the rugby game, which. Sorry, Aussie rules football games, but, like, you know, stuff like that.

[C]

Yeah. And I think when I was younger, I was like, oh, bloody mate. You know this.

[B]

Right.

[C]

This, mate that. You know, it's. But I actually understand it, and I think, you know, I think that it's quite peculiar to Australian men. I mean, well, there's probably all forms of it in various cultures, but.

[B]

Right. There's versions of it. But mateship does feel like this particularly Australian sort of way that men relate to each other.

[A]

It took Americans a century to define the bromance.

[C]

Yeah. Like, another word is digger. I don't know if you came across.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely right, Tom Petters.

[B]

No, the only reason I know that is also bluey. They use that word a lot in bluey.

[C]

Do they? What do they.

[B]

Because Lucky's dad is a classic digger, I feel like. And again, I'm only speaking cute because

[A]

they're dogs digging bones.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

I mean, you know, it was like,

[A]

you know, really, you know, do I know them personally? What. What do I know about.

[B]

The joke is, you know, the. The dad is. Is an archaeologist, so he digs up.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Wait, really? That's a really good.

[C]

And then the moment.

[B]

Security. So she sniffs back, like, that's the joke. You know, they don't say it, but it's really funny. I mean, bluey is so brilliant. And they really. Jennifer. It really. Bluey did really turn me on to Brisbane. Like, I never thought much about Brisbane before, and, like, I realized it has its own kind of whatever, unique kind of climate and character and the. It's so green and it's so beautiful and all, you know, all that stuff.

[C]

Yeah. And. And those houses, like, I live in a Bluey house.

[B]

You do? You live in one of those? It's like a sort of a three decker or however.

[A]

I've never seen David this exciting.

[C]

It's like a French colonial design.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Right.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I live in like 120-year-old house.

[B]

Well, they're so beautiful, though. I mean, they look.

[C]

They're wonderful.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, sort of part of the joke of Bluey is that the house does sort of has like strange physics to it because it's like a kid's view of a house. Right. You never can quite figure out the layout, but.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, is there anything else in Gallipoli we need to touch on? You know, I don't want to keep you here all day, Jennifer, but, like, are there scenes we haven't talked about that we want to talk about?

[C]

I thought the color palette was really interesting, was almost. What do they call the original photography that had a. That there were some colors that were really vibrant. So it wasn't just all. There was a vibrancy to it. Like, especially in the racing scenes when they were doing sprints and stuff, you know, there were pops of colour. It wasn't just all sort of beige and gray and it got more desaturated. Like, they took. They didn't take the color out of the frame and the grade, but they took the colour obviously out of. You know, the costumes were. No, there was no longer any vibrancy. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that is interesting and just beautifully shot. I love the kind of formal quality of it as well.

[A]

And you have like the kind of natural hyper saturation of like the early scenes, especially the one where they're finally running off to try to join the war and they're going off into the horizon and it is just like a straight line. It is just like, you know, super bold orange sand and super bold blue sky.

[C]

Just like bright blue sky.

[A]

Right. And it's just a flat line that they're walking towards.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Yeah. There was some sort of Lawrence of Arabia almost kind of compositions as well. So, yeah, there was something very formal. Like, I felt that he was, you know, not conventional, just formal. And I dig that as a filmmaker. I love that sort of. Yeah. Photographic, kind of beautifully composed frame. You know, you think of war films, it's all like handheld and chaotic and it really wasn't like that. This film.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's not at all. Right. It's very. And the most sort of distinctive stuff is stuff like the underwater Scene. But that's like, you know, that's like a painting or, you know, like just these sort of like.

[C]

Yeah, still. Even though it was handheld by necessity, but it didn't feel documentary like, I mean, talking about Bergman, you know, he famously says in his autobiography that film can be two things. It can be documentary or it can be dream. And I feel this film really still. It sits in the dream. It's not even though the subject matter is very historically it happened, but it's a dream. When I watch this film, it's a sad dream.

[A]

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[B]

I. Are there any other Australian actors I don't really know about here who are. Because it feels like some of these older guys.

[C]

Oh, Bill Hunter.

[B]

Hunter for right. Like these are guys with a sort of a long history in Australia. Bill Hunter's this guy you don't know.

[C]

He was in Muriel's Wedding. He played this sort of bastard dad. But they. All those faces are recognizable. Even the man at the jamboree. The kind of sprinting carnival that they had. Who delivers the. Like. Bill Kerr is. Yeah, he was one of those faces. I was thinking, how did these people. They must have come up in theater because they're older men by the time they're in this film.

[B]

Bill Kerr's interesting cause he went to Britain and he did a lot of work in Britain in the 50s and 60s before he came back to Australia.

[C]

Yeah, like a lot of them did. And a lot of them like Robert Grub. He was a staple on stage when I was studying at NIDA. Just a wonderful character actor, Tim McKenzie. I tried to see what like, I tried to find him. I don't know who he is. Yeah, I don't recognize him. David Argue was constantly in film, independent films and on stage. He's sadly passed away quite recently. Reg Evans is the guy, the athletics official. Do you remember him?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

He's just a wonderful Character, the guy

[B]

who takes the bribe at the beginning.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got a top hat and he's a staple in Australian cinema. So, yeah, they're recognizable faces. It's very nostalgic for me watching that because most of them have gone now, you know.

[B]

Right, of course.

[C]

Not the younger guys. Not the younger guys, but the older ones, yeah.

[B]

Nick, Griff, are there any things you.

[A]

I just wanna circle back a little. We don't have to go all the way in the deep end. But this whole, like, RR Pictures thing is very fascinating to me just for how much that, like, Rupert Murdoch has obviously become an evil Goblin King, hoarding over RPG media for decades.

[B]

We do not enjoy the work of Rupert Murdoch.

[A]

This is him when he has obviously, like, founded News Corp and made it into a massive company before News Corp has bought Fox and all of that. And this is basically his, like, first serious foray into movies.

[B]

It's his only foray. I mean, until he buys a film.

[A]

I'm saying, until he just buys a fucking film studio.

[B]

Right. But he never produces himself again.

[A]

They hired this guy, Francis o', Brien, who was the guy I mentioned, who they sent to sort of investigate the landscape and say, do you think there's a good enough industry here? And he kept on publicly saying, like, this isn't some tax shelter thing. This isn't some, like, weird, like dodge. This is a real belief that there's money to be made in putting more into the Australian film industry. And, you know, was just sort of scanning for, like, who are the filmmakers who are ready for this level up, who has a project that seems appetizing to us and that Murdoch's father was a journalist covering the First World War in Australia and that he has this strong attachment to this era and, like, trying to understand what his father lived through in sort of seeing all of this. And so they're. They're giving them a lot of money, but it's like, not that much on a Hollywood scale. It feels like a reasonable amount. And they're trying to understand, like, what's the right business practice for this. And I think because of Mad Max, they just thought, like, if we have Mel Gibson, it'll be an easy sell domestically. They set it up at Paramount. They were ready to go, but they said Francis o' Brien was there with them the whole time. And Weir came up with the idea of the big dance hall scene late during filming.

[C]

Yeah, right, right.

[A]

And it was gonna cost $100,000.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

For, like, production idea.

[B]

But Weir is basically like, we need a break. Like we need, like something before we're getting to the horror.

[A]

It needs a lyrical break before we go to war. And Francis o' Brien said, like, if I had been at a desk in Hollywood and I got that call, I would have said, this guy's ego's out of fucking control. I'm not giving him $100,000 for a dance sequence. But being there throughout the productions, what you're saying, Jennifer, of understanding the poetry of what he was doing.

[C]

And he was like, the scene was so. It was so essential to put a

[A]

100%, to put a.

[C]

A marker on the end of that beautiful sort of period of innocence. It's like the loss of innocence. Cause the next shot is them all traveling in the dark.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

On those boats. You know, it's like not a different film, but it's certainly the beginning.

[A]

It's a point of no return. Yeah. They hard pivot into war. I just think the setup of this movie was so unique that the intimacy of the money men in this was so tight that even like that guy was sure, like, yeah, 100,000 write a check dance sequence. Not because he didn't care, but because they were actually paying attention to the vision of what was happening and they thought it was financially prudent to invest in that.

[C]

But I also think, well, I mean, I can't speak for Rupert Murdoch, but he obviously didn't continue to have interest in Australian film. So, you know, it must have been like, okay, we can make some money, but we can't make the kind of money we can make in America.

[B]

I think basically what happens is the film comes out in Australia. It's a big hit.

[C]

Yeah, it was the biggest. Yeah, biggest.

[B]

$12 million, which is a lot for

[A]

Australia, many multiples of its budget and more than makes its money back.

[B]

But then in America, it's like a modest sort of art house film that makes a few million dollars. And that's, that's the, you know, it gets good reviews, but that's the end of it. And they probably were kind of like, right, yeah, that's sort of the ceiling of a movie at this point.

[C]

And I imagine, I mean, I imagine it would have been seen as a rather sort of underwhelming film in terms of, you know, like an action packed war film.

[B]

Right. It wasn't that sort of, you know, it got a little bit of a tent. It played at the Venice Film Festival. Like it got a Golden Globe foreign film nomination. But it was. Yeah, it was. It was not as resonant outside.

[A]

Weird. Weir said Paramount bought it and Paramount had that same season reds and that was their big priority. And that was, here's a big, sweeping three hour movie star romantic epic that made sense to them. They didn't know what to do with Gallipoli. And over across the lot, Warner Brothers has Chariots of Fire, which of course ends up beating Reds for best picture. And Weir was saying, like, I kind of wish we were over there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Warner Brothers seems to understand they have this small movie that they need to like, gradually sell people.

[B]

Yeah. Chariots of Fire is a crowd pleasing film triumph. And this is a movie that ends with the main character dying.

[C]

Yeah. This is luckily a tougher cell. It's as dark as it gets. And also it's like. I mean, Mel Gibson obviously became a huge star, but it's like, who. Who are all these foreign actors? We don't know any of them. Yeah.

[B]

And Gibson's not really a star yet. It's more that this is the origin story and this is part of that early. You know, it gets good reviews.

[C]

Yeah. And so it should. Oh, my God.

[B]

Weir in 86 called it his best film, although he also called it his least personal. He says it has least to do with me, but I do think I have real confidence and craft and all that. I don't know if he continues to feel that way. Obviously he made a lot of great films after 1986.

[A]

There's this quote I love from Francis O' Brien when they were trying to sell it before Paramount ultimately ends up buying it when he was showing it to American distributors. And he says three companies liked it. One said, great, but would you go back and put a little more romance in it? Another asked if we would mind changing the ending. No problem. I told them, you give us 3 million, we'll make a film like that. But this one is already made.

[C]

Oh, my God. God. Oh, God. It's just. Isn't it just so. They're just so dumb.

[A]

They're so dumb.

[B]

I do think. And it's so trite, but this is something weird. Says that he's also like, people couldn't pronounce Gallipoli.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, fundamentally, it's like, should

[A]

have changed the title.

[B]

In Australia, everyone knows what Gallipoli is. But that's not true in America.

[A]

What were you about to say?

[B]

Yeah, we're gonna say, Jennifer.

[C]

Oh, you know, we had investors in America who were saying, yeah, like, you know, know, we want to. We want to finance the Nightingale, which, by the way, would never get made in 2026, but a masterpiece, but one

[A]

of the bleakest films I've ever seen.

[C]

And they said, but can she kill Hawkins?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Can it be a revenge movie? Right, yeah.

[C]

And I said, well, she can if you want her to die in the final scene. And they went, no, no, no, no. I said, well, no. I said, well, no. Because that's the whole point of the film felt is how empty revenge is. Ultimately.

[A]

These aren't, like, small changes. Like, would you mind just putting, like, a little more garlic in the dish? It's like, what if the base was lamb instead of chicken? And you're like, well, I've already cooked the lamb.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

I chose which thing I was making. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

But this is. I mean, hats off to Peter for not even just going. Just saying, no. I mean, you can't. Like, okay, are they. Are the guys going to have a love relationship? Is that what's going to happen?

[A]

Also, that's what they were saying in response to watching the final cut. It wasn't like them saying that at the script stage. They were like, we made the movie already. If this isn't what you want, then you don't have to buy it.

[C]

I actually feel it was a beautiful love story. Platonic.

[B]

It is. Love story. I mean.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The one last thing I want to highlight is that the music that he uses for the Bizet piece, the Pearl Fisher, was something where he just went to the opera that was being performed, and there's this duet of two male voices. And he's like, that's Frank and Archie. And he's like, I need to put it into, you know, into the movie. And they have to invent, like, someone having a record player so that he can kind of get it into the film. Yeah, but he was like. It spoke to him. Yeah.

[C]

I thought the music was really beautiful. And even that. Who was the composer? It was Brian, maybe, who did that sort of quite. Vangelis.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[C]

That really stuck with me as a kid as well. Like, as soon as I heard that music this time, I was like, oh, of course that. You know, some people. I was reading reviews. Some people didn't like that, but I. I loved it. I thought. Yeah. And there was that and the. The classical piece as well. That I can't.

[B]

It's. It's a adagio and G minor.

[C]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. I'll. I'll.

[C]

And it starts with that. Right. The opening credits. The opening credits say, this is get ready. You know, so he kind of preps us with that opening title sequence. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

We're going to play the box office game, Jennifer, to wrap up, which is we look at the. The weekend the film came out in America because we, you know, the American box office is all I have here. And Griffin's going to try and guess the top five here for late August 1982. 1981.

[C]

Oh, my God. You're gonna guess them without knowing what films.

[B]

I'm gonna give him some clues. I'll give him some clues. Gallipoli is not in the top five.

[A]

Okay, where's it open?

[B]

I don't know. This is the 80s. There's not. It's not in the top 10. But, you know, my guess is it opened very limited.

[A]

It was.

[B]

It was a small RD2.

[C]

So is this the. Sorry, is this the month that it opened?

[B]

But we're looking at the month it opened. So it. In Australia. It opened. It actually, it was also around the same time. Australia, 13th of August 1981. And it came out in America on the 28th of August.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Number one. Griff is a hit comedy, one of the big comedies of the year. It got sequels. It was. I think it won an Oscar.

[A]

This is the first it gets sequels. Gets a sequel, I guess so. Is it Arthur?

[B]

It's Arthur.

[A]

It's Arthur.

[C]

Oh, oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Okay. It got sequels, Arthur.

[A]

It got one.

[B]

There's one sequel. Arthur on the rocks. Yes. Right. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think he loses all his money again.

[B]

Do you like Arthur, Jennifer? Do you have any take on Arthur?

[C]

I saw it. That's what I. And I do love Dudley Moore. Like, I thought he was wonderful in, you know, the earlier comedy stuff with Peter Cook. I would, of course. I mean, I remember. I remember John Gielgud saying, would you like me to wash your dick for you, sir?

[A]

He won an Oscar for. They basically handed him the Oscar the second that line was delivered.

[C]

Yes. That's a brilliant line.

[A]

I love it more. I think that movie is perfectly pleasant enough. I did have the experience watching it of what I thought I was going to feel watching Crocodile Dundee for the first time.

[B]

I love this guy. Right.

[A]

No, watching Arthur, I was like, this is fine. This set like the world on fire. Yeah, they like elected Arthur precedent.

[C]

Well, I mean, it's a forgotten. Did that win Oscars, did you say?

[B]

Well, John Gielgud won best. It was a little bit of a career award.

[C]

No, that makes sense. Yeah, totally.

[A]

But it got a screenplay now.

[B]

I think it did.

[A]

It was a humongous.

[B]

Hit. It was a big hit. Number two also, biggest movie of 1981. Griffin.

[A]

Biggest movie of 1981.

[B]

It on this podcast would be Raiders

[A]

of the Lost Ark of the Lost.

[C]

Oh, brilliant. I mean, well, hats off.

[B]

Like, does it.

[C]

Yeah, that deserves it.

[A]

Hats off. That's the last thing Indiana Jones wants to do. He's. He's a hat on guy.

[B]

Number three. The box office is a comedy horror film film. It is a very good film.

[A]

Is it American Werewolf in London?

[B]

Yes, it is. Yes.

[C]

I saw that film as a kid too, too young, and I had. I had such bad nightmares.

[A]

But I love it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's got scary nightmare stuff in it.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I've got a poster of that actually on my wall. My office.

[A]

You know, Jennifer, how I knew that's what movie it was.

[C]

What? How?

[A]

Because David's voice was going up as he was anticipating how to talk about John Landis.

[B]

But it's a great.

[A]

I. That I could. David going, it's me too. It's a John Landis movie. It's American Werewolf in London.

[B]

That's a good. I really. That's a wonderful, very impactful film.

[C]

It is. Jenny. Augusta is really good in that too.

[A]

She's so good.

[B]

So.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Goddamn gorgeous.

[C]

They all are.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, now number four. So the first three I knew. Number four is not a movie. I know at all. It is a. It's a comedy drama. It's based on a play.

[A]

Based on a play.

[B]

Got some Golden Globe noms.

[A]

It's not like the Dresser, is it?

[B]

No, that was it. That was a hit that got Best Picture. And it's a Supreme Court comedy.

[A]

Supreme court comedy, yeah. 1981, it was.

[B]

And this is the craziest part. So it's about a female justice being nominated to the Supreme Court.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it was supposed to come out a year later, and then Reagan nominated Sandra Day o' Connor to the Supreme Court, and they brought up the release to her swearing in to essentially. Right. To, you know, to catch up with her.

[A]

This isn't even.

[B]

I'm not even like, let's just do it right now.

[A]

Do you have any idea what this is, Jennifer?

[C]

No. No. So it's based around the woman, the female.

[B]

It's a fictional film. Like, it's not based about sand.

[C]

No. But I mean, is it a female lead?

[B]

Yes. So the leads are Walter Matthau and Jill Clayberg. Oh,

[C]

I love her, but I don't.

[B]

It's directed by Ronald Neem, great British director who did, you know, works with David Lee did a lot of really good movies, including prime of Ms. Jean Brody.

[A]

I feel like I can picture the poster.

[C]

I don't know what that film is. I don't know.

[A]

Is it called Urana?

[B]

No, it's called First Monday in October, which is a very bland, I would

[A]

actually say quite a bad.

[C]

I don't even. I don't even know that film. I don't know it.

[B]

I've never heard of it. It didn't get great reviews. And then number five, another movie, I don't know, let's see. Is a American sex comedy. Okay. I feel this one has come up before. It stars Sylvia Crystal, who is Emmanuel, you know, who's best known as playing Emanuel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's one of her few American films.

[A]

American films.

[C]

Oh, gosh.

[B]

And I feel like we've discussed this movie. Cause that all rings a bell. But I don't feel like, you know, this, this movie. It's an American sex comedy starring her. I mean, I don't have any more clues for you.

[A]

You don't have any more clues?

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

I have to race home and watch it when we.

[B]

Ed Begley Junior's in it.

[A]

Okay, well that, that's helpful.

[C]

What is it? Do you have to tell us? So this is the biggest grossing.

[A]

Okay. Can I guess?

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

Is it called Wowzer?

[B]

It's called Private Lessons.

[A]

I do know that title.

[C]

Private Lessons.

[A]

Private Lessons.

[B]

Never heard of it.

[C]

How saucy.

[A]

Little double entendre. Possibly.

[B]

Right, Right. There you go. There are other movies in the top 10. You've got a movie called Coming at You, which is like a. Oh, that's a 3D crazy 3D Western movie. Right?

[C]

Oh, wow.

[A]

3D Blu Ray.

[B]

You've got heavy metal, which I feel like it's a Ben favorite. The crazy animated. Oh, for sure. Anthology movie. Yes. Great weed smoking movies. You've got a movie I've never heard of called Take this Job and Shove It.

[A]

That's a great title.

[B]

Starring Robert Hayes. Sounds pretty fun.

[A]

And then you have Body Heat, one of my favorites.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And you've got the Bill Murray movie Stripes.

[C]

Oh, so yeah, Stripes.

[A]

I have this opinion that no one remembers what happens in the second half of Stripes.

[B]

You don't do this. It's late. It's late in America.

[A]

Jennifer. Jennifer would be remiss if I didn't ask because I've been so curious for so long. You. We've been doing this show for 11 years now.

[B]

What?

[C]

That's crazy.

[A]

I invoke your films a lot as a positive reference point to other things I like in other movies.

[C]

Aww.

[A]

But you have come up once before on this podcast because of a film you appeared in as an actress.

[C]

Oh. Which. Yeah, I think you're gonna tell me what it is, but I think I know what it is.

[A]

Can you guess?

[C]

Yeah. Babe two.

[A]

Correct. Babe. Pig in the City.

[C]

I had quite a large role in that. But as. I mean, before it ended up on the cutting room floor, I was thinking. And I said, you know, to people, this is not gonna end up in the film because we were experimenting on animals and I was really evil in the.

[A]

Right. You're right. I mean, it's a dull film during, like, a mad scientist lab that's, like, full of nightmares.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then when I saw it, I was like, yeah, I was right. They cut almost my entire role.

[B]

But was that fun to make? Was that. Did they film that as fun?

[C]

It was amazing. I mean, I adored George Miller. I. I love him. And, yeah, it was fun. And the animatronics were crazy. And the pig training was crazy. They were so beautiful. You know, I remember one was called Erica because they. They would get them young, you know, and they use clickers and go back. Erica back. And this little p. Kind of reverse, you know, And I'm a big animal lover. I love animals. And so, yeah, it was. It was a big thing. I. I knew, like, as a kid, I always wanted to write, direct, and act, but I grew up in an era where little girls didn't direct films. You know, I didn't have in. I didn't have any role models, really. I mean, Jane Campion was sort of just coming through and. Yeah. So it was interesting.

[A]

Focusing on acting seemed like the clearer path to get onto sets.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. So here I am.

[B]

Well, I'm very eager for whatever you make next. I'm really excited to hear that you're working on something. It was so wonderful to have you on the show and so good to have an Australian perspective on this.

[C]

Likewise, guys. And I really thank you for this wonderful couple of hours. But also thank you for making me watch Gallipoli again, because I wouldn't have watched it and I wouldn't have been so mean.

[B]

I'm sorry it was upsetting, but it does seem, like, rewarding.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, totally. And it just makes me appreciate our lineage of filmmakers here. And Peter Weir, he's a real master, and he deserves. You know, I'm glad you're doing this. Cause he deserves more attention and for younger people to get in and Watch all of his films.

[A]

I will also say, I imagine almost all of our listeners are very familiar with Mr. Babadook and his work.

[B]

Yeah, he's great guy.

[A]

But if people haven't seen the Nightingale, just because we've invoked it a bunch here, I would say it is similar to Gallipoli in that it is a very devastating watch, but I think a very worthwhile watch. And if you've been following us along on these Peter Weir films, I think there's a lot of overlap in sort of subject matter and perspective and working through the kind of Australian diaspora.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, put it this way. I think if Fred Skepsey hadn't made Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith and if Peter Weir hadn't made his early Australian films, I don't think I would have had the courage to make that film. So I'm very indebted to those pioneers who came out of zero films to. In the 70s, to this incredible slate. So beautiful.

[A]

That is just. Yeah, it is crazy to think about.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

Right. If, like, in the 1970s, America was like, what if we made movies again?

[C]

Exactly. And we haven't made them for 40 years. What if we just, you know, flipped a switch and started making them again?

[A]

I know we've all just been, like, sitting back watching Australian films for the last three decades, but what if we started making them again?

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[A]

Thank you so much, Jennifer.

[C]

Likewise. Thank you for inviting me on.

[A]

Yep. Thank you.

[B]

And then.

[A]

And thanks again to Rob Shear for making this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Thank you to Rob, longtime friend of the show. We love you, Rob.

[B]

Thanks, Rob.

[A]

The best.

[C]

Yeah, thanks, Griffin. Thanks, David. I hope to see you again.

[A]

Absolutely. Yes. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Tune in next week for or you're living dangerously.

[B]

Yes, that's right.

[A]

With.

[B]

We'll cut it out if it doesn't happen. But with Tracy Letts, very excited.

[A]

King of physical media, Pulitzer Prize winner himself, Tracy Letts.

[C]

Oh, I love Tracy. Amazing genius.

[A]

We're very excited about this. And as always, Ben is an American larrikin.

[B]

Hey,

[C]

See you guys.

[B]

We'll bid you farewell. Have a good day. Yes, we will.

[A]

Go to sleep.

[C]

Have a nice sleep.

[B]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley.

[A]

Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our Associate producer is AJ McKeon.

[B]

This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smith. Timothy Research by JJ Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to

[A]

all of the real nerdy shit.

[B]

Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on Social Blank checkpod subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.