Jaws with Timothy Simons

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David – Episode Summary: Jaws with Timothy Simons

Podcast Information:

• Title: Blank Check with Griffin & David
• Host/Author: Blank Check Productions
• Description: A deep dive into directors' complete filmographies, exploring how early successes granted them the freedom to produce passion projects. Hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims analyze the works of influential filmmakers with humor and detail.
• Episode: Jaws with Timothy Simons
• Release Date: January 19, 2025

---

1. Introduction to the Episode

Griffin Newman (00:22):
Griffin sets the tone for the episode with his signature humor, describing the podcast as a "swallow" that "I catch" but warns listeners of a "bad cast" and an immersive experience.

David Sims (01:21):
David briefly comments on an Indianapolis speech, hinting at later discussions but keeps details minimal.

---

2. Structure and Analysis of Jaws

Griffin Newman (01:29):
Griffin marvels at the film's structure, noting that the introduction of Quint occurs earlier than remembered, yet he is absent for much of the movie, reappearing in the second act.

Tim Simons (02:00):
Tim concurs, suggesting that Jaws can be viewed as two separate movies or a three-act structure where the third act extends beyond traditional boundaries.

David Sims (02:10):
David discusses the runtime and pacing, highlighting how the movie transitions at the halfway mark when Quint joins the expedition, shifting the setting to the boat for the latter half.

---

3. Production Challenges and Creative Decisions

Tim Simons (02:22):
Tim raises a constructive criticism about missed opportunities in sponsorship mentions, likening it to how the podcast subtly alludes to sponsors in creative ways.

Griffin Newman (03:01):
Griffin expresses satisfaction with how he repurposed terms within the podcast intro, ensuring it remained engaging without directly copying Jaws' iconic themes.

David Sims (03:29):
David praises Ron Howard's portrayal of characters like Nick Nolte and mentions the strong supporting cast, emphasizing the importance of effective character work in the film.

---

4. Casting and Character Dynamics

Griffin Newman (09:44):
Griffin introduces guest Timothy Simons, praising his role in "Veep" and setting the stage for an in-depth discussion on Jaws.

Tim Simons (13:00):
Tim shares his excitement about discussing Jaws, aligning it with his own appreciation for the film despite feeling it's more of an "everybody's movie."

David Sims (14:02):
David elaborates on Jaws' cultural impact, asserting that it's a "masterpiece" with impeccable storytelling that remains effective decades later.

Tim Simons (15:07):
Tim contemplates whether Jaws was beneficial or detrimental to shark populations but concludes it's more of a cultural phenomenon than ecological.

Griffin Newman (25:01):
Griffin highlights Roy Scheider's performance as Quint, noting it as one of the best acting performances in film history, questioning why Scheider wasn't nominated for an Oscar (03:34).

David Sims (63:36):
David contrasts Roy Scheider's enduring legacy with Richard Dreyfuss's career trajectory post-Jaws, emphasizing Scheider's consistent presence in major films despite not becoming a traditional movie star.

---

5. Technical Mastery and Cinematography

Griffin Newman (33:02):
Griffin delves into the film's visuals, praising the blood effects and the use of red water to enhance the movie's horror elements without relying on realistic shark depiction.

Tim Simons (34:43):
Tim commends Robert Shaw's portrayal of Quint, highlighting the actor's ability to convey intense fear and determination without vestiges of the mechanical shark's shortcomings.

David Sims (42:30):
David discusses the collaboration between Spielberg and cinematographer Bill Butler, noting how their synergy resulted in some of cinema's most iconic shots, despite the technical limitations of the time.

---

6. Music and Score

David Sims (78:24):
David touches on John Williams' score for Jaws, explaining how Williams replaced an experimental score with a more primal and effective theme, crucial to the film's tension and atmosphere.

Griffin Newman (79:54):
Griffin praises Williams' ability to create memorable themes that have become synonymous with the movie's suspense and horror, emphasizing the enduring legacy of the score.

---

7. Legacy and Cultural Impact

Griffin Newman (99:24):
Griffin reflects on Jaws' status as the first summer blockbuster, revolutionizing Hollywood's release strategies with wide releases and massive marketing campaigns that are now standard industry practices.

David Sims (169:09):
David underscores Jaws' financial success, noting it surpassed previous box office records and set the precedent for future high-grossing summer films.

Tim Simons (165:18):
Tim speculates on the accidental creation of the summer blockbuster phenomenon, attributing it to Universal's strategic release and marketing blitz, setting Jaws apart from contemporaneous films.

---

8. Comparison to Other Spielberg Films

Griffin Newman (144:22):
Griffin draws parallels between Jaws and Spielberg's later works like "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" and "Interstellar," noting similar themes of human ingenuity and confronting the unknown.

Tim Simons (121:48):
Tim compares Spielberg's handling of space in "Interstellar" to his storytelling in Jaws, appreciating the seamless transition and emotional depth.

---

9. Oscar Snubs and Recognition

David Sims (35:15):
David lists the actual Oscar nominees of Jaws' release year, questioning why Quint's performance by Roy Scheider wasn't recognized, suggesting it was a significant oversight.

Griffin Newman (35:35):
Griffin echoes the sentiment, asserting that Robert Shaw deserved the nomination and win for his portrayal of Quint, likening it to a "slam dunk."

---

10. Filmmaking Innovations and Storytelling Techniques

Griffin Newman (75:27):
Griffin discusses the innovative use of implied danger over explicit visuals, praising Spielberg's decision to let the audience's imagination fill in the horror, which heightened the film's suspense and effectiveness.

Tim Simons (84:35):
Tim appreciates the specificity in Jaws' opening sequences, noting how Spielberg effectively establishes character relationships and setting without unnecessary exposition.

David Sims (85:37):
David highlights the emotional intelligence in Spielberg's filmmaking, connecting personal experiences to the narrative depth seen in Jaws, enhancing its timeless quality.

---

11. Personal Anecdotes and Side Conversations

Tim Simons (156:17):
Tim shares personal experiences balancing twin parenthood with his career, reflecting on the podcast's discussions and how they resonate with his life.

Griffin Newman (157:18):
Griffin humorously interacts with guests about actor performances and personal life updates, maintaining the podcast's engaging and personable atmosphere.

---

12. Conclusion and Teasers for Future Episodes

Griffin Newman (172:03):
Griffin wraps up the episode by teasing future discussions on Spielberg's next projects and other related topics, encouraging listeners to stay tuned for upcoming content.

Tim Simons (172:37):
Tim thanks the hosts and briefly mentions his podcast collaboration, ensuring listeners know where to find more of his work.

David Sims (174:35):
David humorously indicates the episode's end, ensuring closure after an extensive and in-depth analysis.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Griffin Newman (00:22):
  "This pod swallow you whole. Little shaking, a little tenderizing, and down you go."

• Tim Simons (02:00):
  "It is essentially two completely separate movies."

• Griffin Newman (35:01):
  "How did Sean not win the Oscar?"

• David Sims (35:16):
  "I have Shaw winning."

• Griffin Newman (77:22):
  "Let me see if you can do."

• Tim Simons (84:35):
  "There's a lot of thought and planning."

• Griffin Newman (125:02):
  "He goes from being kind of shocked and mock outrage to then at some point settling and being like, you know what, if I'm gonna get beaten, Fellini? And then he's sort of like, it's done."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Structural Brilliance:
  Jaws' innovative two-act structure or extended third act contributes significantly to its enduring impact.

• Character Depth:
  Roy Scheider's Quint and Richard Dreyfuss's Hooper showcase complex character dynamics, enhancing the narrative's emotional weight.

• Technical Prowess:
  Despite mechanical challenges, Spielberg's direction and Butler's cinematography create iconic and suspenseful visuals.

• Musical Mastery:
  John Williams' score is pivotal in establishing the film's tension and has become an inseparable element of Jaws' legacy.

• Cultural Revolution:
  Jaws redefined movie marketing and release strategies, establishing the template for modern summer blockbusters.

• Legacy and Influence:
  The film's storytelling techniques, character archetypes, and suspense-building methods continue to influence filmmakers and audiences alike.

---

Conclusion:
This episode of "Blank Check with Griffin & David" offers an exhaustive exploration of Steven Spielberg's Jaws, dissecting its narrative structure, character development, technical achievements, and lasting cultural impact. Guest Timothy Simons provides insightful perspectives that enrich the discussion, making it a must-listen for film enthusiasts seeking a deeper understanding of one of cinema's greatest blockbusters.

Transcript

[Griffin]

Blank check with Griffin and David.

[David]

Blank check with Griffin and David.

[Griffin]

Don't know what to say or to expect.

[David]

All you need to know is that the name of the Shadow is Blackjack.

[Griffin]

You all know me, know how I earn a living. I'll catch this pod for you, but it ain't gonna be easy. Bad cast. Not like going down the pond chasing talk shows and live streams. This pod swallow you whole. Little shaking, a little tenderizing, and down you go. We gotta do it quick. They'll bring back your Taurus. Put all your businesses in a paying basis, but it's not gonna be pleasant. Value my neck a lot more than 3,000 bucks, Chief. I'll find them for three, but I'll catch him and kill him for ten. But you got to make up your minds. If you want to stay alive, then ante up. If you want to play it cheap beyond welfare the whole winter. I don't want no volunteers. I don't want no mates. There's just too many captains on this island. 10,000 for me by myself for that. You get the bits, the context, the whole damn podcast. Look, I didn't do the Indianapolis speech.

[David]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin]

I don't think you have to be relieved.

[David]

No, I think that was. That was the right choice anyway because I think that's the better. The better speech.

[Griffin]

You know what astounds me every time I watch this film? That introduction comes earlier than I remember. But yet he is then basically gone for the next 50 years.

[David]

I was about to say there's not much Quint.

[Griffin]

Well, the second half, I mean, this is.

[David]

There's more Quint in the second half.

[Griffin]

This is kind of a fascinating two act movie. Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

It is essentially two completely separate movies.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

And you could argue that each act has a three act structure kind of within it, but it is two movies. Or in so many ways.

[David]

Another way you could think about it is it's a three act movie. But then act three grew far beyond what an act three usually does. And acts one and two just kind of got squeezed over if that, you.

[Griffin]

Know, I was doing like, let me check run times on this. It is basically the halfway mark that he's like, fuck it, get Quint. We're going on the boat. And then they're on the boat for the second half of the movie.

[David]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

I don't want to nit pick. I'm wondering just for sort of like, like constructive criticism, was there a missed opportunity in there? When he talks about the money where you could have said patreon, you know.

[Griffin]

I thought about it.

[Tim Simons]

I thought about it. Okay.

[Griffin]

I thought about.

[Tim Simons]

I'm coming in.

[Griffin]

Do you make some sort of implication of what you're. You want to bring back the, the, the. The sponsors. Is that the analog for the Taurus on the beach? You know, and I was like, look, we're a little behind the eight ball today. That's some complicated math. I was happy the way I broke POD and cast into different words to fill in the different names he used for fish.

[Tim Simons]

I really like bits and the. Yeah.

[Griffin]

I did a replacement. I felt. Is there a perfect version of this? Yes. Is there the Jaws of podcast intros? Possibly. I didn't do it. Maybe it was the Jaws two of.

[David]

Podcast intros or it's definitely not the Jaws. The Revenge though, of.

[Griffin]

No. And I think, I don't think it's the Orca podcast intros. I don't think it's the. The Deep. I haven't either. Isn't it crazy that Shaw did the Deep? That three years later he was like, I'll do another one of these.

[David]

I mean, pay me. I've never seen the Deep. I didn't.

[Griffin]

Peter Gates, I feel like that's the best liked of all the Jaws ripoffs and certainly has the most interesting cast. And Yates.

[David]

Nick Nolte, Jacqueline Wallach. Yep. Louis Gossett Jr. Good title.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Scuba action.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Drugs.

[Griffin]

Hey, Underwater drugs. Ben, write that down.

[David]

Ben just sort of very half heartedly pretended to write something down and then.

[Griffin]

Scratch his nails against the tropical.

[David]

What is this podcast?

[Tim Simons]

Take the pen cap off.

[David]

You just sort of went, like I.

[Griffin]

Said, we're behind the eight ball today.

[Tim Simons]

I don't want to. And again, I don't want to belabor it because I know we are behind the eight ball.

[Griffin]

We are behind the eight ball. David's life, hashtag behind the eight ball.

[Tim Simons]

David's live has completely Oppenheimered and yet we are still going to talk about a movie that is as everybody has.

[David]

Talked about my life has Oppenheimer.

[Tim Simons]

I like this.

[Griffin]

I think this is good. David is Shrek and his life has always.

[David]

Oppenheimer's reaction to having children was basically to go to his neighbor's house and be like, can you take these? I have no interest in raising them.

[Griffin]

Nice to meet you.

[Tim Simons]

The I. The only reason I was even able to give any feedback on the intro is because it was so good. And so I think even saying, yeah, it's not anywhere close to the Jaws two of intros, it's so much better.

[Griffin]

Well, I appreciate.

[Tim Simons]

You know what I Mean.

[Griffin]

Yes. But this is also. Look, let's just say. Let's just say it.

[Ben]

Oh, David, look out behind you.

[David]

No, it's true. Truly. Jaws behind.

[Griffin]

This is blank check with Griffin and David. Oh, yeah, that's right. We have a Jaws beach towel hanging over a sound.

[David]

I'm going to do a photo shoot with it.

[Griffin]

You're gonna do a photo. You're gonna do a beach?

[David]

Yeah, me and. Me and Marie are conspiring on that.

[Griffin]

Wow.

[David]

Yeah. But. But this episode's not till January. We got time. Yeah.

[Griffin]

Are you gonna do a polar bear plums this year?

[David]

That might be fun. Never done that. I witnessed it once.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And I was like, it seems. This seems like it would be a pain in the ass.

[Griffin]

It feels like a good way to shake off the Oppenheimers.

[David]

Yeah, it might be.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

My friend Lindsay, friend of the show, Lindsay Weber. She does it. Maybe I'll ask her this year. Like, when does that happen? What's the procedure?

[Griffin]

Yeah, right.

[Tim Simons]

Anyway, one time in the middle of the summer, I was. I was in Chicago, and I lived kind of close to the. Lived close to the lake, and it was, like, a really hot day, and I was on my way home, and I just said it. I'm, like, three blocks from home. I'm just gonna go in the lake. Like, it was so. It was like that kind of hot and heated.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

And I went in the lake, and it was so cold that when it, like, got to my heart line, I thought I. I thought my heart was gonna stop.

[David]

You had that crazy sort of. You're seizing. Yes, it feels like.

[Tim Simons]

And so I don't. No. Having had that experience, I don't know that I would ever recommend or do a polar bear.

[David]

Some people are very into the cold. Plunging. I'm not good at it. I don't. I'm not.

[Ben]

That Carson Daly, it saved his life. Do you hear this?

[Tim Simons]

No.

[Ben]

Carson Daly.

[Griffin]

Really?

[Tim Simons]

It's the.

[David]

Are we talking about.

[Griffin]

I want to be the David here.

[David]

You're Griffin, the.

[Griffin]

In the Jaws episode. We're talking about Carson Daley.

[David]

You're Griffin, and I'm David. What is this blank check with Griffin and David?

[Griffin]

I want to see if you can do.

[David]

It's a podcast about filmographies, filmmakers who get a massive success early on and are given a blank check to do whatever crazy passion project they want. And sometimes those checks clear. And sometimes they bounce, baby.

[Griffin]

I usually say early on in their careers, but go on.

[Tim Simons]

Is this the first time you've ever actually introduced it?

[David]

I Think I've tried to do it a couple times.

[Griffin]

We're 10 years in at this point. Every time there's like a special event on the show, we're forgetting that we've done it two times before.

[David]

We are here discussing, of course, the films of early. The early films of Steven Spielberg. What's the miniseries called? I totally forgot.

[Griffin]

It's called Podrasic Cast.

[David]

Sure it is.

[Griffin]

It is.

[David]

It is.

[Griffin]

I'm sorry. That. That's just the fact.

[David]

And we are certainly discovering. Thank you, Ben, for sending this New York Post article about how Carson Bailey does cold plunges.

[Griffin]

He.

[Ben]

Okay, he was a wreck mentally and physically.

[Griffin]

Not, not, not to go full David mode. But Ben, I'm shutting you down. I refuse.

[David]

We are discussing his guarantor for life, essentially.

[Griffin]

Yeah, I'd say that Jaws. I'd say that. I'd say it would have been really difficult to ever lose the status that Jaws gave him, despite the fact that.

[David]

He has a bounce two films from now.

[Tim Simons]

What is the bounce?

[David]

1941, his only true massive bounce, where it's like cost too much money.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Production was somewhat out of control, was a bomb.

[Griffin]

He has disappointments after this.

[David]

Right. Relative disappointment.

[Griffin]

But he doesn't really make calamity of his career.

[David]

Right. And even that, of course was completely survivable. Partly because he goes on to then make Rage the Lost Ark and ET Back to Back after it. Helpful. But partly because he made Jaws. So no one's exactly going to shut the door on Steven Spielberg even after that.

[Tim Simons]

One thing that I'm excited about today is that Jaws, Jaws, Jaws, Jaws. I'm excited to talk about Jaws, but as I was watching it, the movie Jaws. How. I mean, like I even texted you guys last night to be like, jaws is a good movie.

[Griffin]

Yeah, that was the exact text that. Which by the way, one of your better texts.

[Tim Simons]

I feel like we have a. We have a little bit of set.

[Griffin]

There's a little bit. We're gonna scratch the blackboard a couple times.

[Tim Simons]

I have to spend a lot of time in the car, but I still am interested in having an active. An active back and forth with you.

[David]

Sure.

[Griffin]

You come in hot with some what Siri dictated.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[David]

SMS's.

[Tim Simons]

And yes, I understand that a lot of times they don't make sense.

[David]

Sometimes there's errors and sometimes it's funny to imagine you saying the words aloud.

[Griffin]

Right. Sometimes they're tone poems, but yes, the way they come across. David and I very often upon receiving them have no choice but to interpret them as you yelling at the top of your lungs. And it's not like they're being translated by Siri into all caps. But they have that energy.

[David]

I.

[Tim Simons]

And I, I do understand that. I, I, I think maybe I put that energy out in my life, but that is. I don't remember me yelling at the car.

[Griffin]

I don't think of you as a yeller. I don't think of you as a yellow. That's what's funny about them is they.

[David]

Have yelling energy in the text.

[Griffin]

They need angry. Our guest today, of course, the great Tim Simons.

[Tim Simons]

I'm so happy to be here.

[Griffin]

Returning to the show a Veep.

[David]

Nobody wants this.

[Griffin]

The hottest show in the planet.

[David]

It's a hot show.

[Tim Simons]

It is. Yeah. It's a hot show.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

I weigh in today. A young girl stopped him on the street.

[Griffin]

What?

[Ben]

Asked for a photo.

[Tim Simons]

Really? Yeah. Had to take a little selfie. I said thank you.

[Griffin]

Was she a fan of she Breaks the Internet?

[Tim Simons]

She what? Oh, she was not a fan. I listened to your Ralph Breaks the Internet episode. It was great.

[Ben]

Oh, hell, yeah.

[Tim Simons]

No, she had. She didn't bring that one up. She was talking about, nobody wants this. That is.

[David]

Oh, that's what I was.

[Tim Simons]

That was the thing.

[David]

It wasn't your Jonah Ryan. It's.

[Tim Simons]

No, it was that.

[David]

Okay, cool.

[Griffin]

Veep was a very successful show, but.

[Tim Simons]

I don't think I was telling Ben about this. Off.

[Griffin]

That's what I was going to say.

[Tim Simons]

It was all. It always sort of had a niche audience.

[Griffin]

Yes. And I also think the type of people who watched it are perhaps the type of people who are less likely to stop someone on the street and ask for a photo.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

Right. I do feel like this show. I was saying this to someone the other day, but nobody wants this. Feels like one of those, like, Netflix cannot pretend this is not a success.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

And it doesn't feel like they're trying to convince us it is.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

Suddenly, the show within a week of it coming out was just like, oh, clearly this thing is hitting.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

And you are an incredibly tall man.

[Tim Simons]

I'm very sure that everyone's watching very quickly.

[Griffin]

Maybe cannot blend in conspicuously.

[Tim Simons]

No, I simply cannot. But it, like, it is. It is. It's always nice when something seems to connect with, of course. With people like, I. I have an.

[Griffin]

Opposite approach to my career. I love everything I'm in. Failing.

[Tim Simons]

Thank you.

[Griffin]

That's always been. I find it very satisfying, actually, and rewarding. I hate the public enjoying or even watching the things that I'm in.

[Tim Simons]

I loved Vinyl Season two.

[Griffin]

Well, it.

[Tim Simons]

It.

[Griffin]

God, it was good. The scripts, when the cast all gets together and holds hands, does our sort of vision board. No, I never read the scripts.

[David]

Reese Events is in Venom 3.

[Griffin]

Yes. And it's a little confusing because no one knows if they are acknowledging that he is also in other Sony Spider man movies or not. I mean, at this point, it'll be a settled matter.

[Tim Simons]

Is he not playing the same character?

[Griffin]

That's what's unclear.

[David]

He's. It's not specified.

[Griffin]

And then some people think that he's secretly playing Null, King of the Symbiotes.

[David]

Oh, boy. All right, well, I'm killing that out again, you know, but in the trailer.

[Griffin]

A hippie in the back of a van playing guitar.

[Tim Simons]

Listen, in our defense, it was more on topic than daily doing.

[David]

That's true.

[Griffin]

That was a year ago. Yeah.

[David]

At least. It's like a film that's coming out.

[Griffin]

For how much, Tim, you yell at us in our text.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

And there's a lot of, like, guys, I need to get back on the show. And then we'll throw you options and you'll go direct quote. None of these really get my dick hard.

[Tim Simons]

Jesus Christ. Did I really write that?

[Griffin]

Then we'll, like, kick the can for six months. Then you'll say, like, I need to get in an episode right now where, like, Tim, we're booked up. We'll get back to you the next time there's some options. And then you, like, shrug off the next options. The two episodes you've gotten to do are the Shining and Jaws. I. I'm not asking you to say thank you, but I'm just saying you have gotten, like, two of the most totemic American films of all time. I fully know filler.

[Tim Simons]

I fully understand that this is. I have. I don't know how I ended up here. I'm very excited that I ended up here for those two films.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

I think it was just more. When I've said, those don't get my dick hard, I think it said, not that they don't necessarily or that they wouldn't, but I also am like, I don't know that I have the sort of personal connection to those. And so therefore, I wonder if it's ultimately a net negative to have New England.

[David]

I don't know if the remaining choice is capital letters get my dick hard. You know?

[Griffin]

Yeah, that. There we go. Verbatim.

[David]

That was it.

[Griffin]

Verbatim.

[Tim Simons]

It. I will say it is very nice to have friends who let me know that you guys talked about me on the show at some point. But there's always this ellipsis where they pause and then they're like, like, yeah. They made fun of you because of the way you text.

[Griffin]

Yeah. Cuz we're friends.

[David]

Yeah, we're. It's really wonderful to be friends with you, Tim.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah, that's a very nice thing to say.

[David]

Thank you.

[Tim Simons]

It is very wonderful to be friends with both of you. Yeah.

[David]

And my wife's watching. Nobody wants this. And then suddenly I'm like, oh, Tim's in this. And then I'm like, you know, I'm like, you know, I know that person. Like I'm like friends with him.

[Griffin]

You know, he text me things about his dick. And its current status relative to a screenshot of a.

[David]

Relative to Martin Breast's filmography. Jaws.

[Griffin]

Jaws, Tim. One of the most important movies ever made, right?

[David]

Yes. To the point that it's sort of like how do we really talk about it in an interesting way? A blank check episode. Because even I feel like a sort of casual film fan knows Jaws was the original blockbuster and kind of invented the opening weekend and the merchandising and you know, obviously kickstarted Steven Spielberg's career. And yes, sharks was big for them.

[Tim Simons]

I think ultimately.

[David]

Oh, the shark didn't work.

[Griffin]

Oh no, wait a second. Is that in the dossier? I haven't heard of this before.

[David]

They called it Bruce after his lawyer. Did you know that?

[Tim Simons]

Wasn't it ultimately very bad for sharks? Didn't people go around killing sharks after this movie came out?

[David]

I can't imagine people. Right. That jaw is actually was good news for sharks. I think a lot of things have been bad for sharks, like the presence of humans on our planet, fishing patterns like, things like that. Right.

[Tim Simons]

Like I think though, after Jaws and again, this might be in the dossier. This might be one of those things. Like it was called Bruce Lawyer.

[David]

Apocryphal. Right.

[Griffin]

I'm reading something here in the dossier that this film was directed by Steven Spielberg, which I didn't know before. What were you guys.

[Tim Simons]

Sorry, no bits though. Even watching it again last night and I can't. I. I cannot say how many times I've seen it.

[David]

So you've seen this film a couple times?

[Tim Simons]

I've seen this film many, many times. Every and even last night. It is still shocking how good it is. This is how effective.

[Griffin]

That's the thing. It's like it's so discussed in terms of its cultural impact.

[Tim Simons]

Right.

[Griffin]

There are all these things around it. But then you also Just watch it. And you're like, perfect move.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

It's both.

[David]

Like, it's not a film where you can find much fault.

[Griffin]

No. And even if it did not have the insane cultural industry redefining impact in several different ways, even if this movie had underperformed upon release, let's say in some crazy alternate universe, I do still think now, 50 years later, people would be like, oh, yeah, Masterpiece. Perfect film. Like, it would have gotten there, which already would make it tough to talk about. And I put this forth on an episode that will come out three months from now, but it does feel like at three or four different points in his career, Spielberg makes a movie that then the rest of Hollywood's like, fuck, how do we do this?

[David]

This is the first time.

[Griffin]

Right. And there's like, the immediate wave of shit like Orca and the Deep and three Jaws sequels that everyone basically agrees to just ignore.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

But then there's also just like. I still think modern movies are trying to take lessons from Jaws.

[David]

If they aren't, they should be.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

I also feel like, is this one of things. If this is this one of those things where everybody tries to take a lesson from Jaws, but what they forget to do is make a movie that has the quality of Jaws. And this is, like, a very specific thing that I was thinking of, the amount of dialogue that overlaps.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

In this movie. Like, that's one of the amazing things about it. And I feel like in every movie that would try to copy this, they would try to make it too slick. They try. Of course, they do not have the conversational nature.

[Griffin]

This was my thesis that I was starting to formulate upon the rewatch. Because this is, like, I mean, Spielberg's third proper film.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

We're counting Duel. Yeah. And obviously, is this transformative moment for his career and for the industry and what have you. But I also think this is the moment of the full, like, synthesizing of this guy, who obviously had this insane, like, prodigious ability. Right. Just has, like, a perfect cinema brain also kind of synthesizing everything cinema had been up until that moment. Like, I think part of the magic of Spielberg is not just his innate skill and his vision, you know, and his, like, facility on set and managing complicated productions. And I think him having to work through the struggles of this changes the way he approaches filmmaking for the rest of his life. When people talk about how improvisational he is, how he likes not planning things out in advance and all that sort of stuff. But I also think, like, he's Taking things from new Hollywood, from Hitchcock, from the classics of silent cinema. Like, he's synthesizing all these things. And you look at the eras of. I'll say, in particular, American filmmaking up until this point in time, and you're like, this is what's popular. And then a big shift happens and everyone swings this way. And then a big shift happens and everyone swings this way. And he's kind of like circling back and marrying classical stuff with modern stuff where, like, you know, when MASH comes out in 1970, people are like, that's legal. People can talk like this. You can't hear what they're saying. They're overlapping. And Spielberg's like, what if I clean that up? Like, 10%? The fact that, like, Cassavetes was a big mentor to both Spielberg and Scorsese, and he was, like, stripping everything down to just the fundamentals of performance writing, you know, breaking down the formalism of blocking and everything. And then those two guys, I think, synthesize the lessons of what he's doing into things that are more conventionally cinematic. And it's like, if you have the rawness of Cassavetes performance combined with, like, the sort of humor and the messiness of, like, Altman and the naturalism, but then also with, like, this sort of Hitchcock visual storytelling, like, all these things. I think that is why this movie feels like such a miracle that he's able to put these elements together that we now kind of take for granted. And also, as you said, they are rarely. Ever done this well again?

[David]

Yes, I think a lot. So a few things. One, Jaws is not my movie.

[Griffin]

Me neither.

[David]

And I don't mean that in I don't like it way. It's just that. Right. It was so totemic by the time I was watching movies. I have seen Jaws a few times. I recognize everything that's good about Jaws, but. Right. Never. My movie that I watched over and over again was obsessed with.

[Griffin]

Right. Weirdly think I didn't see it until I was, like, 23.

[David]

That's somewhat surprising, but I get it.

[Tim Simons]

I'm also with you. I didn't see it until I was much older. We were talking about it before, about those things that you miss because they've been parodied or talked about so often. I saw it. I saw it and, yeah, I saw it. There's a shark.

[Griffin]

I had seen all the other totemic Spielberg movies before.

[David]

You saw Jaws.

[Griffin]

Much more trillier. Yeah.

[David]

I think I was also scared of Jaws as a younger boy. Scary.

[Griffin]

You hear it from everyone who lived through that movie of like, oh, my God, I wouldn't sit on a toilet for five years. I wouldn't go in a swimming pool. You know, people talk about. It's not like one person said, that's an overreaction. It felt like there was a generational trauma around water from Jaws that like, shook people to their core.

[David]

Little bit. And then. So Jurassic park is my sort of Spielberg creature feature that I grew up with. Jesus Christ. Ben just knocked over a gigantic block. It was so loud.

[Griffin]

Ben, can we sidebar for a second?

[David]

What?

[Griffin]

You gotta get together?

[David]

Do you need some cold plungers or something?

[Griffin]

Take the cap off the pen.

[Ben]

Look, I'm fine.

[Griffin]

We need it. This is the Jaws episode.

[David]

Now, how long?

[Ben]

Jurassic park is knocked over a giant block.

[David]

Jurassic park is actually two minutes shorter than Jaws Wild. Which is surprising when I say that out loud because Jurassic park feels long. Like, that feels like this movie with a lot of acts and sort of.

[Griffin]

You think Jurassic feels longer than Jaws?

[David]

I do.

[Griffin]

I feel the opposite way. The thing that surprises me is that they're the same length. They're about the same length.

[David]

They're just a little over two hours each.

[Griffin]

But Jaws is so much more pale. Patiently pace.

[David]

It is.

[Griffin]

And has such more kind of like rhythms, like the waves of the ocean.

[David]

It does.

[Griffin]

Whereas Jurassic park is very propulsive.

[David]

It is. And Jurassic park has a slow build to mega propulsion and is all about the kind of like whatever sort of capitalist, you know, sort of machinery around this. And Jaws has all the elements as well, in a simpler fashion that's not really being like, thrown at you. Like, you can just sort of, like, engage with it very quickly and do I like that, like, Jaws jaw. It's just economy. With Jaws, which you admire.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

And yet I'm more used to the.

[Griffin]

But then you're also, like, the amount of, like, hangout movie.

[David]

It is a big hangout movie with just a couple of sort of. Well, more than a couple. Several exciting sequences.

[Griffin]

Right?

[David]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

There's no. I haven't seen Jurassic park in a little while. But it also kind of feels like the kind of stuff that's in Jaws when you think about summer blockbusters. The fact that there's just a moment where they, like, have a glass of whiskey and they say, like, you want to get drunk and fool around. Yeah, like, that probably wouldn't. Is that's not in Jurassic Park. Because it feels like that would get skipped over.

[Griffin]

Yes, I agree.

[David]

Which I. I. Jurassic park is making the same decision. Jaws makes the Wise decision of like, we don't need a movie star.

[Griffin]

No.

[David]

We need like good, interesting, you know, thespians, character actory guys.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

I mean, it's very obvious to compare those two movies. It's just we watch them back to back.

[Griffin]

Not to in terms of recording, but. But also I. I mean and I make this point the Jurassic episode coming out two and a half years from now. But they both have this sort of like id. Ego, super ego thing with their main trio, which I don't. This is not the first thing to do that. You know, I think that's so much the success of like the original Star Trek and everything. But this thing of like cast three interesting actors who are not the types of guys you expect to put in something like this.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

And then have them basically represent the contradictory and complementary sides of a psyche in addressing a problem that feels massive. Yeah.

[David]

Just leave. What are.

[Ben]

No, no, stay, stay, stay.

[David]

No, I'm saying like in Martha's. Just kill.

[Griffin]

That's my response.

[David]

Just take the summer off.

[Griffin]

Tim's burning to say something.

[David]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Tim Simons]

Well, no, I think that's a great read. But I mean I think the first thing that I was like. Is this a good time to talk about Roy Scheider?

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

As a movie star? Like as.

[David]

Because if you want to, I mean like we can build to Roy previous Scheider episodes.

[Griffin]

Last Embrace.

[David]

Sure. Which he's got in. In my memory.

[Griffin]

He is and is a somewhat forgotten Jonathan Demme movie, but is kind of in a lot of ways very emblematic of a lot of Roy Scheider's post Jaws.

[David]

Roy Scheider. Right.

[Griffin]

Movie. Kind of classic Roy Scheider.

[David]

Somewhat thinky dark thriller. Yes.

[Griffin]

Kind of own that lane.

[David]

Good.

[Griffin]

And then all that jazz.

[David]

Well, that's just sort of like a. That same year as Last Embrace. That's a big totemic and I think.

[Griffin]

It'S his best performance and is such surprising casting.

[David]

It would be almost anyone's best performance.

[Griffin]

Right, right. But no, this is fascinating. It is so weird that Roy Scheider is the star, the ostensible star of Jaws.

[Tim Simons]

Yes. And I also for as many huge unbelievable things that he's done and I'm such a huge Roy Scheider fan.

[David]

Me too.

[Tim Simons]

That it does it every time I see that he's the lead of it. It is like, why wasn't this man the biggest movie star and.

[David]

But it was a part of movies and.

[Griffin]

But that's the other thing. It's not like his legacy is he was the Star of Jaws and he it up. Like, it's not like, oh, he didn't become a movie star because something went wrong. You look and you're like, he was above the title, the lead in movies for like 15 consecutive years.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

But certainly Robert Shaw is dead within three years of this movie coming out. And Richard Dreyfuss kind of has the career you maybe expected Roy Scheider would have had as a post Chaz Bump for a bit.

[Tim Simons]

I would. I wonder. And I like watching the things that Roy Scheider does.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

I wonder if a part of that is he plays the movie he is in rather than trying to bring a star Persona to it. And I think that there is. Maybe that's something of why of like, she doesn't make the movie about him. He's like, how do I fit in to make this movie better? While also using the things that are sort of naturally magnetic about his own personality.

[David]

I just want to pause because I feel like we should discuss that he wasn't the first choice. Well, I just feel like let's have more Scheider discussion.

[Tim Simons]

Great.

[David]

When we're in the dossier side of Scheider later. Exactly.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

But I do love Roy Scheider, obviously.

[Tim Simons]

I heard you guys got Regal to sponsor the side of Scheider.

[David]

Yeah, Regal, actually, we've switched them over to that. And a lot of episodes, it's just gonna be dormant.

[Griffin]

Yeah. You know, we got an email. Regal is suing us.

[David]

Yeah. Obviously, this is Roy Scheider's second best aquatic sort of thing after Sequest dsv.

[Griffin]

But to that point was produced by Spielberg, was it not?

[David]

I believe so. I watched sequest.

[Griffin]

Seemed like Spielberg doing a favor for Roy Scheider where it's like, you know what? I'm going to give you incredible syndication money.

[David]

Right. I mean, I think probably didn't turn out to be. But that was the hope.

[Griffin]

That was the hope.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

But that was also right. In the 90s, it's like, you know what, Roy? You've become the and guy on a TV show. Like, that's what you can do.

[Griffin]

But versus, like, you know, it's just interesting that by the 90s, Roy Scheider was not at living legend status. And I think even when he passed away and he kept working until his death, there was this sort of feeling of like, oh, right, Roy Scheider's still alive. And you're like, this guy's in like, four of the most important movies ever made. Yes.

[Tim Simons]

Like, maybe we should save this for side Of Schneider, but yes. Side of Scheider, but. But yes, you're 100 right. That he didn't sort of have that sort of late career up on a pedestal. This is one of our best movie stars we've ever had and I feel like we need to start putting our arms around the fact that that is true.

[Griffin]

I think he is very, very beloved by our generation of cinephile and I think for the reason you just so specifically and. And eloquently laid out. I mean, there was the fucking Nighthawk trivia, which is the great. For my mind, the best movie trivia here in Brooklyn went last year at the Halloween installment and they did a costume contest and there was a group of five shiders that were all perfectly dressed and the audience was just kind of like bowled over, but they got it. And it wasn't just the costumes were good, but it. Seeing five people dressed as different versions of Roy Scheider next to each other, you're like, God, his career was fucking incredible.

[David]

French connection, jaws, sorcerer, what 2000 and all that jazz. What was Maybe.

[Griffin]

Yeah, maybe that's what it was.

[Tim Simons]

Maybe somebody try to throw in like some 7 ups or something.

[Griffin]

Weirdly, there was someone dressed as Orlando Jones, the 7up guy.

[Tim Simons]

Make 7up your.

[David]

I was dressed up as Cool spot. But that's.

[Griffin]

But I do think it's that thing of like, if you just narrow the things down, you're like incredible and then you're like the sort of forgotten B movies of Roy Scheider are the exact kind of thing we all bemoan don't happen.

[David]

Right. You watch any of those and you're like, well, this rocks. Yeah. So Jaws. Yeah. So I. I think I watched this movie when I was about 10 or 11 on VHS.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

I. It was like at a house I was staying in. I watched it and I remember finding it scary.

[Griffin]

Sure.

[David]

And then. Did you. Yes. And then as I loop back around to like now I understand more things about Steven Spielberg and movies. And you know, I watch this probably again as a teen. Later teenager and I sort of developed that opinion of like, well, right. It's just so pure and impressive. And you know, this is the kind of stripped down thing that even he can't achieve anymore. And then I've seen it like a couple times since then and every time I watch it I have that reaction of, yeah, this is very impressive.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

But it's not like people are obsessed with Jaws in a way that I probably can't be.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Won't happen.

[Griffin]

No, that's that's how I feel too.

[David]

But I've never seen any of the sequels.

[Griffin]

A perfect masterpiece. Me neither.

[David]

Because it's supposed to be good, right?

[Tim Simons]

I believe I was just at, like, a dinner party in the neighborhood a couple weeks ago. We were playing like one of those word association games.

[Griffin]

Humble brat.

[Tim Simons]

And I think, guys, I don't want to fucking brag. Drag. I think it's called Clover.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[Tim Simons]

Where you have, like these two things together. You have to find a common word, and then, like, the other team gets the cards and they have to put the cards together.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[Tim Simons]

Using the con, the clues from the common word. And one of the common words was Jaws, too. And it was like fish child, which is apparently a thing in the later.

[David]

Movies, is that it's a. I believe in Jaws, the revenge. One of them is basically implies that. That the son or mother of Jaws is mad of ballet to Jaws.

[Tim Simons]

Yes, Right, Right.

[David]

It may. It tries to, like, imply like an emotional.

[Griffin]

This time it's personal.

[David]

Correct.

[Griffin]

One of the greatest taglines of all time for a movie that sucks. Right?

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Because two is just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water, which is also. Taglines are incredible. It's fascinating for how much the other three movies are kind of like gentlemen's agreement. We all will ignore them unless we just want to revel in trash that all four have, like, totemic perfect taglines.

[David]

Can you tell me what 3Ds is?

[Griffin]

That's what I'm trying to remember.

[David]

The 3Ds is the least impressive. The revenge is this time.

[Griffin]

It's something like terror in a new dimension.

[David]

It's the third dimension is terror.

[Tim Simons]

I do think that's just not bad. That's pretty good.

[Griffin]

And I do think 3D movies, when they had their big surge in the 2010s, were often doing taglines riffing on that.

[David]

Well, it's in the same era as Friday the 13th Part 3, which had the tagline a new dimension in terror. And yeah. Amity Phil 3d, which. I like this tagline warning. In this movie, you are the victim, which is a good tagline. Although it sort of also applies, like, this movie is so bad it will victimize you. Yes, Jaws.

[Tim Simons]

Jaws.

[Griffin]

But yes, I want to say sequels mostly become the. The family of Jaws hunting down the family of Brody.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

So one thing that every time I watch, I understand what you're saying when you're like, this isn't my movie, but every time I watch it, I am like, oh, this should be everybody's movie.

[David]

And so.

[Griffin]

You're right, it should be.

[Tim Simons]

It is shocking. Even last night.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

How remembering. How horrifying. Most of these. How horrifying and still truly scary. These moments are like the one in the pond where the guy gets his leg bitten off. Like, I. We watched this with our kids a couple summers ago in that mindset of, like, oh, we haven't seen Jaws in a while. We'll watch it with the family. And when Shogs gets eaten, our young children.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

Turned to look at us in this way of, how could you be showing us this? They both started sobbing. One of them ran upstairs and hid under the covers, and the other one put all the pillows from the couch on top of them. It is still incredibly affecting and horrifying.

[Griffin]

What's fascinating about it, too, is there is, like, no viscera. There is a lot of blood.

[David]

There's liquid.

[Griffin]

But, like, you're like, the guy's clearly got blood capsules in his mouth that he, like, activates and then starts spitting blood. And then there's a lot of blood everywhere on the boat that's getting mushed in with the water. So it's just kind of red water everywhere. But, like, the. For the. The viscerality of the moment.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

It's easy in your mind's eye to be like. And then you see him ripped in half and his intestines are spinning around and whatever. It is so much more impactful than kill like that.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[David]

Well, it's also, like. It's intense and it's crazy. And Shaw, like, nails it so hard and it's scary. But then it's also like, you know, the moment where you are most of all, if you settle down, like, oh, right. This is clearly like this giant puppet they could barely use that's sort of going like.

[Griffin]

Not only that, the only shot.

[David]

It's like the Edwood scene.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Where, you know, Martin Lando is like, like, putting the tentacles around himself, going like, oh, no. Like, it's much better than that. But, like, you. You can see Shaw is like, I'm gonna have to make this work for.

[Griffin]

How notoriously the shark didn't work. The only shot where I think the shark looks bad is in that sequence.

[David]

Where it lands on the boat. And you're like. You can tell, like, this is not an organic thing, right? Yes.

[Tim Simons]

But I will also say.

[David]

But that makes it scary in a good way.

[Tim Simons]

His. His performance of how much he doesn't want to get eaten by the shark. And I know that this seems Reductive it that his performance of that moment is so good and so his. He is so terrified. And after everything that you've heard, you can't believe it's going that way. It's so. It's still so effective that I wasn't even thinking about looking for the shark. Not working.

[David]

No. Go ahead, Griff. You say one thing.

[Griffin]

Every time I watch this, I'm like, how did Sean not win the Oscar? And then I remember he wasn't even nominated. And it's an effect thing of, like, how is that possible?

[David]

Well, this film history must have been rewritten at some point, snubbed by the Oscars. He is my winner for Best supporting Actor, though.

[Griffin]

It feels like a slam dunk.

[Tim Simons]

This might be. Is this. Because, again, this is like a film history blind spot for me. To me watching him in this, this feels like one of the best film performances that has ever been. Am I overrated?

[David]

Let me give you the five nominees.

[Tim Simons]

Okay. They're.

[Griffin]

They're not bad, but they're weird.

[David]

I would say George Burns, one for the sunshine voice. Of course. We recently talked about George Burns on Going In Style.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Brad Durif was the nominee from One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest. I feel like there's various people in the ensemble, obviously, who are impressive. He is the, you know, maybe the standout.

[Griffin]

Sure.

[David]

Burgess Meredith in the Day of the Locust. Kind of an awesome night.

[Griffin]

I've never seen it. I probably love that movie.

[Tim Simons]

Oh.

[Griffin]

Legendary Stick Man.

[David]

Chris Sarandon in Dog Day Afternoon. Another movie where you're kind of like, multitude of options here.

[Griffin]

I was gonna say.

[Tim Simons]

I wait, it wasn't John Cazale or Durning.

[David]

Yeah. Who are both amazing.

[Griffin]

But I think it was the sort of, like, issue point of, oh, this performance brings, like, respect to the trans community at a time where that was not done.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Pushed him over the edge. But I would certainly nominate Kazal or Durning over him.

[David]

Jack Warden in Shampoo, who, like, I'm never going to be mad at a Jack Warden performance getting nominated. I don't have him nominated. I have. Right. Robert Shaw, John Cazale, Danny DeVito and Brad Duriff from Cuckoo's Nest. And then Keith Carradine from Nashville, a performance I love. And Nashville's another movie where you're like, there's a bunch of performances.

[Griffin]

So I would nominate Henry Gibson for Nashville.

[David]

Sure.

[Griffin]

I would nominate Cazale. I would nominate fucking Shaw, and I'd give him the win. Yeah.

[David]

I have Shaw winning.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

Am I generally Overrating the historical significance.

[David]

Jaws was snubbed by the Oscars. The, the. I mean, like, it got a best picture nomination in three tech noms. It won all three technical awards. Was Spielberg. There was a very obvious, like, no, no, new Hollywood is happening right now. We are not indulging this, like, commercial stuff, this monster movie, this like sort of elevated monster movie. But that's all that is. The five nominees for best picture, it is one of the most outstanding fields. One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, Barry Lyndon, Dog Day Afternoon, Jaws and Nashville. Yeah, that's like a flooring, like where you're looking at that and you're like, the worst movie nominated is One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest. A movie that I think is good. Like, it's not. I don't think that movie has the same staying power as the other four. And obviously it won best Picture.

[Griffin]

Here's what, why I find it surprising for everything you're saying. Yeah, it is like an era where people are getting nominations for Irwin Allen films.

[David]

Yeah, sure.

[Griffin]

You know, like, I think it's.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

You have like Airport and Towering Inferno and Poseidon Adventure acting nominations. It's not like they're beyond this. I also think he's like borderline at legend status at this point. Obviously 50 years on him, he's not.

[David]

A legend, but he's a very respected.

[Griffin]

British actor and writer.

[David]

Likes a bit of a tipple.

[Griffin]

Sure. They obviously no one could have predicted that he'd be dead within three years and that in retrospect, they definitely should have given him this. But this is also coming the two years prior to this are the Sting and Pelham123. The guy's on a heater.

[David]

No, but, but like, obviously the Sting, he's great in that.

[Tim Simons]

But yes, we've been getting into caper movies in the house. Like, so I showed. We have a thing where we do like Papa Movie Nights. David, this is something you're able to look forward to.

[David]

Nice.

[Tim Simons]

It is really nice. It's like where I pick a movie that they would never pick.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

And then ultimately they end up loving it.

[Griffin]

Every other week is rad.

[Tim Simons]

Every, just every week it's rad. Hey guys, we're doing this again.

[Griffin]

My guy loves a rat bad.

[Tim Simons]

So. But recently we've sort of, we've gotten into like, I want to introduce them to caper movies. So we started with the Sting and they, they did enjoy it. I do think pacing wise, this thing's pretty boring. Yeah, no, but I mean, like, I love it. And I do think it's something that they'll come back to appreciate.

[Griffin]

You have to be a dork. Like us watching it with a sense of context.

[David]

It's like a fun dad movie. But I. I remember the first time I saw this thing as a teenager with that kind of setup of like. Like, damn, this is. This was like a huge.

[Griffin]

People being like, this movie's so much fun.

[David]

And you're like, okay, yeah, yeah, that's fine.

[Tim Simons]

They definitely were into. The next one we watched was Ocean's Eleven. So, like, getting them. And so it's a film with a more modern story, a more modern storytelling. But it is really funny watching those kind of movies.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

With kids that age, because they are like, wait, is that true? Wait, are they really not friends now?

[Griffin]

Sure.

[Tim Simons]

Wait, is this a part of the thing? Like, you know what I mean?

[David]

The cons. Oh, shit, they got me. Pelham123 was, I think, a modest hit.

[Griffin]

Sure.

[David]

But that movie's cult reputation grew in later years. He's so good, the guy.

[Tim Simons]

I'm just so good.

[Griffin]

His career.

[David]

His great career.

[Griffin]

Yes. Sometimes you have that thing where you're like, why'd this person win for this? And you step back and you're like, oh, the four years leading up to this performance, the guy got kind of undeniable or he was overdue or whatever it was. Shaw was kind of perfectly positioned in every way other than. I think you're right. It was like the level of success of Jaws kind of scared me.

[David]

We don't need to give this awards. We have other things to bestow awards on. We are currently in this, you know, phase where we are really recognizing, like, challenging Hollywood productions, and Jaws is not one of them.

[Tim Simons]

I don't want to spill.

[David]

Famously was snubbed for Fellini.

[Griffin]

Have you seen this video, Tim?

[David]

We can talk about it in the dossier. But Spielberg had a camera on him when the nominations were announced, assuming he was about to get an Oscar nomination. And so there is footage of him going. I mean, you can see it's on YouTube. Right. It's widely available, where they realize it's not happening. He's like, they. Fellini. They gave it to Fellini. Fellini is the sort of.

[Griffin]

I got beaten by Fellini is what he keeps saying.

[David]

For amercord was the surprise fifth nominee, and director was. Otherwise, it's milish. Foreman, Stanley Kubrick, Stoodley, Lumet, and Robert Altman.

[Griffin]

I think everyone was predicting that he was the fifth, and those four were locked.

[Tim Simons]

What. What is the Sense of how he's saying it. Does it make him look?

[David]

He's trying to save face.

[Griffin]

He's like wearing Jaws merch. He's in his home that has like a Pac man cabinet. Like, it's clear. Like, this overgrown child just made the biggest hit movie and now lives in a toy palace and is his own biggest fan and is, like, feeling his shit. And he's surrounded by friends who are hyping him up. And I believe the video starts with them being like, we're here with Steven Spielberg, who's about to get his first Oscar nomination.

[David]

He's 29 years old. Yes, look, the Steven Spielberg story. Let's. I'm opening the dots.

[Griffin]

He goes from being kind of shocked and mock outrage to then at some point settling and being like, you know what if I'm gonna get beaten, Fellini? And then he's sort of like, it got nominated for best picture. It is crazy. Like, in real time, you see him getting a little humbled, but he starts out hot and just.

[David]

It's 1976. So like putting a camera on you. It's not like people now where it's like, yeah, sure, turn your iPhone on.

[Griffin]

Right?

[David]

It's like, someone need to, like, have a kid.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

Anyway, there's three point light.

[Tim Simons]

I do. I don't want to move the Shawshank up in the. I don't know that, like, this is like Robert Shaw.

[David]

No, wait. All right, you relax, okay? Giving us all these actors segment. We're going to get to Sean and.

[Griffin]

When are we going to get Dreyfus? You don't want to put your whole full dry fussy into it.

[David]

I'll tell you who puts his whole dry fussy into things.

[Griffin]

Richard Dickey.

[David]

Hey there, Ryan Reynolds here. It's a new year and you know what that means.

[Tim Simons]

No, not the diet resolutions. A way for us all to try and do a little bit better than we did last year. And my resolution, unlike big wireless, is to not be a raging and raise the price of wireless on you every chance I get.

[Griffin]

Given a [e-mail] switch, $45 upfront payment required. Equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees. Extra speed slower above 40 GB on unlimited. See mintmobile.com for details.

[David]

I just. Before I open the dossier, I want to read this review that I just found. Somehow I never saw this movie and decided that I need to see a big old wet shark boy attack. Dumb teens. And that's exactly what I got. And also it Was a reminder of how cool the ocean is as far as ecosystems go. Something that's been bringing me comfort during this whole crisis is I just think about how right now there's an octopus just doing some fluttery moves, or stingray is just chilling at the bottom of the ocean.

[Griffin]

It's very interesting to voice. I would say whoever wrote this might be our finest living film critic.

[David]

Just wanted to. So, Ben, you first saw Jaws in early Covid. It seems you logged in on letterboxd. You had, like, two weeks where you're like, I'm gonna log America's finest poetry on letterboxd. And then you clearly were like, all right, enough of that. Stop doing it.

[Ben]

Yeah, pre.

[Griffin]

Much lost interest, briefly were in the running to actually become the poet laureate of America.

[Ben]

Yeah, I don't know. I. I should have maybe stuck with it, But I did see it for the first time, and I was totally shocked by how effective it was and how much it continues to be like a, like, incredible film that, like, is scary.

[David]

What about stingrays fluttering at the bottom of the ocean, though?

[Ben]

I'm thinking about it right now.

[David]

Pretty cool.

[Tim Simons]

I feel like the. Is the octopus fluttering?

[David]

Yeah, the octopus is fluttering. You know, stingrays flutter, too. They got that kind of, like, wavy thing.

[Tim Simons]

Oh, yeah. On the very edges.

[Griffin]

They. They did a. A 3D remaster of this that I thought was very expertly done. And I said this about. Or I will say this about Jurassic park as well. The two earlier Spielberg movies that have been post converted to 3D. That unsurprisingly, Spielberg's shooting style and filmmaking rhythms are very well suited for 3D. More so than most filmmakers who try to intentionally make 3D movies. And watching it in 3D in a theater for the first time, never having seen it on screen did help sort of like, activate Jaws for me, a little of making it feel new and experiential and place me a little into, like, what it would feel like to see Jaws for the first time, even though it was in some weird new version. But that rerelease, I think, happened in 2021. I want to say it was summer 2021. They put Jaws and ET both back in theaters when they were like, we don't really have many summer blockbusters.

[David]

2022, okay.

[Griffin]

But Covid was recent enough. And, Ben, you were watching this early lockdown. I do find in a lot of ways I don't know, and I'm not looking forward to seeing people try. Any movie will ever actually capture the energy of the COVID Crisis the way that Jaws does. I think the whole fucking story of reopening the beach and the mayor and the pressures and the concerns seeing in 2022, I was like, holy fucking shit. The amount of stuff this movie gets right. About how people react in situations like this, still 50 years later, feels dead on.

[Tim Simons]

Especially the moment where it's not just the mayor saying, we've got to stay open.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

This is the economy.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

When he goes up to the person that works for him and is like, why aren't you in the water?

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

And that person has to go get in the water when the mayor himself is not going to get in the water. That was, I think, the moment where I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and agree with you on that one.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Steven Spielberg's debut film is called the Sugarland Express. Was well received by critics, did well at the Cannes Film Festivals. Just the one.

[Griffin]

Pauline Kael put her chips down very.

[David]

Quickly, but it didn't really make a lot of money and it didn't really sort of alter his career in any particular way, but. So he wants to make. It's interesting. I did not know this. The next movie he wanted to make after Sugarland was the taking of Pelham123. Great. Good digging, JJ and United Artists. Universal Artists, sorry. Called the film director Proof and went with Joseph Sargent. Given Joseph Sargent's career, which is kind of workmanlike.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

They kind of were right. That's one of my favorite movies of all time. And I've never been kind of like. And it's because of Joseph Sargent. Like, even though there's nothing. He did everything right, but it's really just a perfect concept perfectly executed by the.

[Griffin]

Joseph Sargent's one of those classic. If you give him all the right elements, he will nail it. Which isn't to say that the movie directed itself, but you're like, he's probably not a guy who can make something out of anything.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

But like, given a slam dunk script and a perfect cast and whatever. Yeah.

[David]

So then another movie he wants to work on is MacArthur. What is that about the General MacArthur Oscar? He gets replaced on that project. Did that project actually happen by this? Yeah. Oh, it did with Gregory Peck was also directed by Joseph Sargent. So he's just being, like, boxed out of everything by fucking Joseph Sargent.

[Tim Simons]

I got sergeant. I got sergeanted.

[David]

He does have a movie called Watch the Skies that he's written that he signs a development deal on. Obviously that's going to become Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Sure, we'll deal with that later. But that's like a script feature.

[Griffin]

We are going to do an episode.

[David]

We're planning on it.

[Griffin]

Patreon.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, we'll throw it on Patreon.

[Griffin]

Yeah. By the way, ET is going to.

[David]

Patreon. Yeah. ET is getting tagged onto our Twin Peaks Season 2 episode just on the back of that. If you want to listen, we're joking.

[Griffin]

All these are.

[Tim Simons]

I love your work. I love your work.

[Griffin]

No one cares.

[Tim Simons]

And I, you know that I am very complimentary of everything that you do and I listen every week and I love watching along.

[David]

What is it?

[Tim Simons]

I've never been so happy that something was put on Patreon than the second series, the second season.

[David]

But that's great.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

So. So he's cutting Sugarland Express. Zanuckin Brown, the producers of that movie are throwing him scripts and he's like, nothing's really sparking for me. And when he meets with them, he sees the manuscript for Jaws. He likes the title.

[Griffin]

It's a good title. I will say it's a good title.

[Tim Simons]

It's a really good title.

[David]

He says he basically stole the book, read it over the weekend and came back and was like, I wish to do Jaws. And they were like, look there. We'd love that. But the agent who sold it to us has a director as part of like a package deal.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And that director was Joseph Sargent. No, there was the initial. There was the initial hope that it was going to be Stanley Kramer, who's obviously a big director at the time, John Sturgis, the man who made Magnificent Seven and the Great Escape. But the director who was actually attached was called Dick Richards, who had made the Culpepper cattle Company. Not like a. No offense to Dick Richards, but not a well remembered guy.

[Griffin]

Rich Dickards.

[David]

And apparently I had to say it's.

[Griffin]

Not at some point, joke, but it had to be said.

[David]

They had a lunch with Dick Richards and Peter Benchley, who wrote the book Jaws. And Richards kept referring to the monster at the center of the movie as a whale. And Benchley said, for God's sake, it's a fucking shark. After he did this three times and they had to pull him out of the package deal, which I think was, you know, whatever. They had to maneuver that. And then they go back to Spielberg and they're like, jaws is now available to you. Jaws.

[Griffin]

Jaws.

[David]

And Universal's a little scared because Steven Spielberg's a young man. Yeah, they probably are like, we just need some sort of like, hired hand. Guy who's a steady guy who's done a lot of productions, but let's also call out. It's a bit of a risk.

[Griffin]

But this is also like basically the earliest days of film school. There are not many people who know how to direct movies. Like, yeah, that's true. That this guy has like a prodigious amount of talent that is kind of immediately undeniable when you watch his early TV work where like, if you watch that and you're just like, this guy knows where to put the camera. I guess he's on the list of 40 people we know who can make a movie.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

But there is less competition for these positions. There is more of an old boys club and the feeling of studios want to hire these old steady hands.

[David]

Right. Sort of.

[Griffin]

He's fighting against his age, but he.

[David]

But he's also. He's hot stuff. He knows he's hot stuff.

[Tim Simons]

He also. If I'm financing that movie, you're throwing a lot of money at a guy who wears like cut off jean shorts.

[Griffin]

Totally lot.

[Tim Simons]

And that would make me nervous.

[Griffin]

But I think people can look at any footage he's shot and this is what the studios are doing and going like, this guy undeniably has it figured out out.

[David]

Spielberg starts to feel a little shaky. He's like, wait a second, I made Duel. Jaws also has like four letters in it. It's also about this kind of like unseen monster that's just right, you know, like this. He's worried about repeating his shtick. So he reads the book. You know, he's looking through the book and he's like, I never really liked the first two acts too much. I really loved them on the boat, the last 120 pages. Like them on the hunt in the sea. The extended drama between them. And so as they're working on the script, Benchley wrote several drafts and then they start to bring in other people. He's like, can we expand that? That's right. And that's what as you're saying, it's half the movie, essentially.

[Griffin]

Right. Cause I mean, the middle act, I assume. I've not read the book. Have either of you read the book?

[David]

I read the book years ago. There's like a whole thing where there's a fair, there's a cucking.

[Griffin]

I'm saying it feels like he took out all the middle stuff that I hear people describe that is like weird interpersonal drama between the guys that I'm like, yeah, no one' showing up for that.

[David]

Spielberg's like, they should Just be friends.

[Griffin]

Yeah. The other thing, enough attention from them having different personalities. They don't need to bone each other's wives.

[David]

In the book, only Brody survives.

[Tim Simons]

Well, there is a little bit of a moment that might allude to that. And that Dreyfus just comes over and is like, hey, is anybody eating this? And he just, like, gets in.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

You know what I mean?

[Griffin]

He cucks that lunch.

[Tim Simons]

He kind of cucks the lunch or whatever. So maybe that was intentional.

[Griffin]

There's a lunch cucking.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

But this is.

[Tim Simons]

Is.

[Griffin]

This is Spielberg, master of economic storytelling. He went. You can see that, and assume how this guy would treat his friends, wives.

[David]

Nonetheless, Spielberg continues to have cold feet. He's worried. This is a quote from Peter Gottlieb, who's one of the writers.

[Griffin]

Carl Gottlieb.

[David]

Sorry. Carl Gottlieb, who came in later and, like, sort of made it funnier, essentially, where he apparently said, who wants to be known as a shark and truck director? He tried to leave.

[Griffin]

Better than a Boston tractor.

[David]

Exactly.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Tried to leave at one point to shoot Lucky lady, which is a film that, you know, happened. Have you heard of Lucky Lady?

[Griffin]

I know that title. What is that?

[David]

It's like a dramedy, like a throwback prohibition movie with Burt Reynolds and Gene Hackman and Liza Minnelli.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

Yes. And it's famous for George Lucas visited the set and was so impressed by how it was run. It was shot in England that he hired a lot of the people who worked on it to work on Star Wars.

[Griffin]

Wild.

[David]

He was kind of like, this is the. Kind of said, I want to run.

[Tim Simons]

Can we just point out that.

[David]

And that's why Star wars was made in Britain.

[Tim Simons]

You said that the people that are starring in that movie are Burt Reynolds.

[David]

Reynolds, Gene Hackman and Liza Miller.

[Tim Simons]

And you talked about the efficiency of the set, how the.

[David]

That's. Maybe that's. Maybe that's part of it.

[Griffin]

It was sort of like a. Like a Zen garden. It was just very quiet, serene, efficient.

[David]

It's a Stanley Donen movie. And it was a.

[Griffin]

No emotional outburst whatsoever and zero ego.

[David]

Anyway, Steven Spielberg made Jaws. You know, he stayed on Jaws.

[Griffin]

Oh, he. Okay. He did end up correcting it.

[David]

Right. And I'm gonna check.

[Tim Simons]

I'm gonna check my notes that I took. No, I had that. Yes, you had that.

[David]

He made Jaws.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah, I had that. He made Jaws.

[Griffin]

Steven Spielberg. Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

And.

[Tim Simons]

Well, I guess s. I'm sort of inferring.

[David]

Yeah, we should maybe.

[Griffin]

Well, let's cross reference that. David. What do you have there in your notes Steven Spielberg. Steven Spielberg. Okay.

[Tim Simons]

We have to trust it at this point.

[Griffin]

We do at this point.

[Ben]

I call him Steve.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

Okay.

[David]

The Indianapolis. So. So Benchley writes the sort of drafts that everyone starts to work off of. Gottlieb is brought in at one point and starts to flesh out the characters more. Give it a little more humor. The famous USS Indianapolis speech.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Is largely attributed to John Milius and Robert Shaw himself.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Just to make that kind of more of a monologue.

[Griffin]

It is fascinating how much that whole generation of film brats speak with such awe of Milius.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Where they're like, we all wished we could write like him and would just go to him with things like this and be like, you need to just crack this one scene for us.

[Tim Simons]

Can. Can I just have like a sort of quick Shawshank sidebar? Did in that moment of like, it somehow being accredited to Shaw, does it go into specifics about what he put in? Was it just a performance? Was it stuff?

[Griffin]

I think put it in his own language.

[David]

There was a. There was already lines on this. Milius is asked, can you make it more of a speech? And he wrote a very, very many pages long speech. And Robert Shaw, himself an accomplished writer, read it and was like, this is too much. This is sort of John Huston y. I can't do this. Let me rewrite it. And it's his rewrite that is the dialogue.

[Griffin]

So it was like tiny moment originally. Milius blows it up to epic scale. Shaw makes it a little more natural and stripped down.

[Tim Simons]

Oh, that's amazing.

[David]

The character of Brody, the film's main. The main character.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

The Roy Scheide.

[Griffin]

The movie opens and closes on him.

[David]

Police Chief Martin Brody. Charlton Heston supposedly wanted the part. This is in Charlton Heston's kind of like genre days. Spielberg thinks he's a little too overwhelming and he desperately wants.

[Griffin]

Robert Duvall would have unbalanced the movie. Duvall is interesting.

[David]

He makes perfect sense in that same.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[David]

Sort of area. Is Scheider, I think. Yes. Not a great actor who's not as overwhelming a sort of face at that.

[Griffin]

Time, as I love to say. Considered Hollywood's number one, number two.

[David]

And Spielberg doesn't Heston or Scheider?

[Griffin]

Duvall. Duvall had a real complex about. I'm always the second guy. They never let me play the lead.

[Tim Simons]

Right.

[David]

Things like Godfather, Network, Apocalypse Now.

[Griffin]

But I couldn't be more valued as the guy next to the explosive time.

[David]

Yeah. Spielberg doesn't want Shider because he's like, this is a cop. He's just going to do the tough guy thing from French Connection. Like I don't want that. Now Spielberg Schider's coming off an Oscar nomination.

[Griffin]

French Connection, such a, like another seismic movie.

[David]

Definitely.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Spielberg in his dotage. Not in his dotage because he's still kicking like crazy and making great movies. But later on says that that's not true. And oh, he ran into Roy Scheider at a party and Roy Scheider was feeling down because he couldn't get a good part and he was like, you'd be perfect for Jaws. So I don't know who you want to believe on this For Quint. They wanted Lee Marvin makes perfect sense as well.

[Griffin]

Also think it would have unbalanced the movie.

[David]

I think a little, little too big.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Then they want Sterling Hayden who makes a lot of sense.

[Griffin]

Totally.

[David]

You know, they're, they're going to know real pillars.

[Griffin]

So Sterling Hayden in like long goodbye mode.

[David]

Guys who could play like Captain Ahab. Right. You know?

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Do you. He wasn't able to do the role for some scheduling reason.

[Tim Simons]

Do you buy that Lee Marvin has like would. Has been on a boat?

[David]

Well, you're saying that because he's such a horse guy, such a western guy.

[Tim Simons]

Well, no, I just, I guess I'm thinking of like Lee Marvin in Point Blank.

[Griffin]

I despite I buy that Lee Marvin has been on a movie boat.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

You know, like Heston, Lee Marvin. There's a version of this movie that is like, not to be rude but like sergeant directing Marvin and Heston. And you're like, it's probably a movie that we think rules.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[David]

Right. But it's more of like look at this. These guys all chewing scenery. This is fun.

[Griffin]

Right? It's, it's the kind of Tim Simons dictated all cap screaming text version of the movie that is still, you know, know, disgust to the.

[Tim Simons]

That everybody loves and so happy it's happening. Yes.

[David]

Robert Shaw comes from Zanicin Brown who had produced the Sting producing this movie. And Spielberg was kind of like, oh, that makes a lot of sense.

[Tim Simons]

Another really hard thing to try to explain to kids is like the inner workings of like off track betting. When you're watching the Sting, they're like, okay, wait a minute. So like what does win, place and show mean? And like trying to get them into the particulars of like the delay of the tape and you know what I mean?

[Griffin]

Multiple languages in that film.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

Anyway, but Shaw has Oscar nomination under his belt.

[David]

He has won for A Man for All Seasons, the movie he's amazing in.

[Griffin]

And he's also kind of like the Irish shepherd of his time where it's like, here's this guy who's just like credibility, character actor, but also great writer, great dramatic person. Right.

[David]

Likes a bit of a tipple, like.

[Griffin]

A wait, he looks. Is that sourced in the.

[David]

For Hooper?

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Jon Voight is the first choice.

[Tim Simons]

That would be fucking wild.

[David]

That would be insane. Yeah. Totally different movie.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And then when he turns it down, Spielberg goes to Jeff Bridges and Timothy Bottoms. He loved the last picture.

[Griffin]

I was gonna say, the way the character's written, it feels like he's supposed to be more of. Of this kind of like the soft hand, rich boy thing that is in there.

[David]

Yeah, yeah. Bridges make sense there, but in a.

[Griffin]

Form where everyone else is like, this guy's fucking doofy. He doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. The magic of the Dreyfus casting is you're like, this guy's absolutely a scientist and he's silly.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[David]

Obviously George Lucas is the one pushing for Dreyfus post American Graffiti. And Dreyfus is like, I found the movie, movie to the script, boring. My character seemed to be just there to give out shark information, but I had no money.

[Griffin]

That's a weirdly rude thing of Dreyfus to say, which isn't usually his manner.

[David]

Right. He says, I gave in, I surrendered. I was a prostitute. Yeah.

[Griffin]

Every Dreyfus quote is like that, where he's like, this movie sucked and they forced me to do it and I made money. Hahaha.

[David]

And then at the end, and then he's always like. And the thing I really love to do is insert some piece of. No one remembers. Like, like, like my real passion project was playing Dick Cheney. Know, like.

[Griffin]

But then there's that. There's the clip. He's one of the world's greatest. There is that clip of him on the View promoting Vice. And they're like, you hadn't done a film in like six years. What pulled you back into playing Dick Cheney? And he was like, money, this movie's dumb. I don't care.

[Tim Simons]

I. I met Richard Dreyfus once when I was in college. He came to speak on our campus.

[David]

Okay.

[Tim Simons]

And I think it was like something to do with the Bush. The Bush Gore election in 2000. And I went up to him afterwards and I said, hey, man, I really liked you in the Goodbye Girl. And he just like, touched my chest. I think in a very nice. Weirdly, a very Nice way.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

To say. But I think what was behind it was. I'm so glad you didn't say Jaws.

[David]

Sure. Right.

[Tim Simons]

You know what I mean?

[David]

Even though it's like the movie he won the Oscar for at the time, sort of forgotten now, but at the time a little better known and at.

[Griffin]

The time, time a from.

[David]

But he's getting Jaws, Close Encounters. You know what?

[Griffin]

I don't know what else even probably American graffiti. More. Yeah.

[David]

Mr. Holland's opus. Hey, I loved how you played that teacher like a absolute pure for the entire movie. Really moved me.

[Tim Simons]

There were some 8 year olds there that kept calling him Mr. Holland and they were like, oh, Mr. Holland, Mr. Holland. And he did not respond well to that. He did not enjoy that, even though it was coming from the mouths of children.

[Griffin]

But like, talk about, right. Scheider's post Jaws career versus Dreyfus's post Jaws career. It's not just that he has a couple more major blockbusters and that he wins an Oscar, the youngest to win best actor, a record held for several decades. Right. And an Oscar that almost seems like, of course, undeniable.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

This guy, Runaway Freight Train, he basically remains a major movie star until the mid-90s.

[David]

Absolutely. He's. I think he's often known for being a bit of a jerk, but he's. I mean, his 80s are not great, but he has hits.

[Griffin]

He's above the title studio guy.

[David]

There's no question about that. Yeah, but he didn't. Yeah, he didn't. It's. Right. He continues to exist as a star.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

Despite kind of not really making a lot of hits anymore.

[Griffin]

Stakeout's a hit.

[David]

Stakeout is a solid hit. What About Bob is a solid hit.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

There's stuff like down and out in Beverly Hills or whatever. Yeah, right.

[Tim Simons]

I mean, Mr. Holland's opus was a hit, wasn't it?

[David]

But that time it was kind of like, oh, what a nice comeback. A bit of a passion project for him.

[Griffin]

This is great. Basically the end, like within three years, he's like third build in the crew.

[David]

I mean, he has to me Krippendorf's Tribe, a movie I'm obsessed with the existence of. That's sort of the end where it's like, can Richard Dreyfuss still lead a movie? Maybe this one. And they're like, okay, that's enough.

[Griffin]

I did a sort of accidental trilogy watch of culturally insensitive Disney. These 90s live action comedies. Which is man of the House.

[David]

Sure.

[Griffin]

Which is Chevy Chase and Jonathan Taylor Thomas. And it's all about like a little Indians, like, weekend group and then Jungle 2. Jungle.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

And Krippendorf's tribe. You have to do them in that order in ascending insensitivity. Krippendorf is astonishing.

[David]

Well, Krippendorf is an insane movie.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

I'm sorry, what?

[Tim Simons]

Well, no, I was just going to say that we have another Dreyfus connection in that Richard Dreyfus's brother is the music teacher at my kids, like, public elementary school.

[Griffin]

Really?

[Tim Simons]

And he has, like. I think he was the bait. I just had completely forgot about this until you said this is like a passion project. I think his brother, in a way, was the. The what he based that off of. Yeah, but he's like a very nice man. And he has like, sort of like, he's kind of balding, but he has long gray hair down to his shoulders. He kind of looks like a music teacher.

[Griffin]

Ye.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

He also wrote the. He wrote the elementary school's like, pride song.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[Tim Simons]

And like every. All the kids sing it, and it's really amazing.

[Griffin]

Sounds a lot like Mr. Largo from the Simpsons.

[Tim Simons]

I. That's the thing. Like, does Mr. Largo also own, like a. A sort of like a country club?

[Griffin]

Because.

[Tim Simons]

Because. Because I think his name is Ben. What is Richard Dreyfus's brother's.

[Griffin]

Ben is his son.

[David]

But I know the name of Richard Dreyfus brother Ben.

[Griffin]

What's the name of Richard Dreyfus's brother? Other.

[David]

Lauren Dreyus.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[Tim Simons]

It's Lauren.

[David]

This seems to be maybe another Dreyfus, because I don't know.

[Tim Simons]

Well, this Dreyfus is also the co owner of, like, a sort of small country club in la Canada, California Wild. Which has, like, a pool. It's actually where my kids learned how to swim.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

Because it's like, it's not expensive to get like, a pool membership, and we don't have a pool or really access to one. So that's where my kids learn to swim. Him. Yeah. And he's kind of always around there just looking kind of like Richard Dreyfus. Apparently, Richard Dreyfus also doesn't like to do ADR and voiceover work. So if they're like, hey, we need you to do this, he's like, I don't want to do it. And he just sends his brother.

[Griffin]

This guy teaches music, owns a country club, and does his brother's adr.

[Tim Simons]

Like, what a life.

[Griffin]

Wild.

[David]

I'm trying to find this guy's name. I can't.

[Griffin]

I'm surprised it even took that Long for him to land on Dreyfus. I mean, I know we'll get to it. But infamously, Spielberg was very resistant to casting Dreyfus in Close Encounters.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

It felt for a while Dreyfus was constantly needing to convince people to hire him.

[Tim Simons]

Why was that the case in. After working with him in I wonder.

[Griffin]

I think it's difficult and I feel. I'm trying to remember who it was. But he had a more. I mean, this is the thing. Richard Dreyfus was a very unconventional leading.

[David]

He was. And he looks older than he is and he's got this sort of of. But now I'm just like, that was such a look in the 70s and it's kind of the dreyest look.

[Griffin]

Well now of course you were like, yeah, movies have guys like that in them, especially in roles like this. I do think to have someone who was that Nebishi.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

You know, was sort of like. And not be in one scene of the movie.

[David]

So perfect for the energy of this movie, obviously.

[Griffin]

And it is a performance that does kind of change things. Like it becomes one of those archetypal.

[David]

Yeah. I mean especially. Right. Cause the movie, it's like when you're with Quint Brody, you're like, yes, okay, I understand this movie. This is the kind of bullet headed guy who's trying to like cut through this crisis and best he can. And Scheider feels like an upstanding guy. Then Shaw, you're like, yeah, I get that. That's like a fucking sea dog.

[Tim Simons]

Great.

[Griffin]

Cool.

[David]

I get that guy. And Dreyfus you're like, oh. Huh. This is like an element I don't think about when it comes to like, you know, monster hunting on the water.

[Griffin]

Right, right.

[David]

That you would have this kind of like. Right.

[Griffin]

Squirrely guy, this weirdly confident blue blooded marine biologist wearing a Canadian tuxedo, who also like.

[Tim Simons]

I do like the subplot of him being a little bit embarrassed of his background.

[David]

Right, right, right. Wants to be a salty dog. Right.

[Griffin]

Which I think if you cast someone like Jeff Bridges, it's like that's how he reads at first. And the whole movie is him going, I'm dying for to take me seriously. Whereas with him, it's almost like a secret he can successfully suppress. But once he knows he's so self conscious about it. I mean I always think about. There's the stories of how much Shaw would antagonize Dreyfus. And the line that rings in my head constantly is when they were in the boat before take. Shaw would go Remember, mind your mannerisms, Dreyfus.

[Tim Simons]

Oh Jesus.

[Griffin]

Mind your mannerisms. And there is this balance of like, yes, he's a very mannered actor. It works in this movie. You need him to balance out the trifecta of the three of them. But there is a juice that comes from the feeling that Shaw is genuinely fairly annoyed by him as a person and Dreyfus is trying to impress him, trying to win him over.

[Tim Simons]

I mean, in a way you can almost be like, yeah, how? Well, how did Richard Dreyfus end up being a dick? It's like because Robert Shaw psychologically broke him.

[David]

I don't know.

[Griffin]

I mean like stop minding his mannerisms.

[David]

He look in regard regarding the production of Jaws, the highly discussed production of Jaws. I think Apocalypse now is maybe a movie with. That's only the only more discussed production. Sure.

[Griffin]

But let's also say like a year ago there was a Broadway play, not.

[David]

A very good one, I think think called the Shark is Broken, written and.

[Griffin]

Performed by Robert Chausson, who looks exactly like him. Does look, that's a three hander of the three of them in the boat. The reason I think stressing out over.

[David]

Not a very good play. Right. Is it's mostly just them like explaining the production of Jaws. It sounded kind of dramatic, which was.

[Griffin]

Horrid, which is one of the most discussed things ever.

[David]

I feel like people forget that it was obviously it was shot on Martha's Vineyard, pretty much on location. It started way earlier than it was supposed to because the studio was afraid of an actor strike which never materialized.

[Griffin]

Huh.

[David]

So they were trying to get ahead of that. So Spielberg hadn't really done any preparation, started about two months early and there was a lot of pressure. Spielberg is 26 years old, basically looks younger. He's being put in charge of basically the first movie to shoot on open water ever. It's like you're doing a water movie, you shoot in a tank.

[Griffin]

A movie that basically creates the saying of never shoot on water.

[David]

Exactly.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

Spielberg is getting backed up by his studio. Right. Like it's not like he's fighting with them. Exactly. But his biggest idea for this movie is we should shoot on the real sea. Because I want, you know, that sense visually of like they're actually out in the open ocean and it works. But obviously it was a nightmare for the production.

[Tim Simons]

I did one of the, again, one of the things that when you go back and you watch it and you're like, yeah, this is perfect. I can't believe how good it is is that I Still am watching it now, now. And I'm not sure how they did it. I'm not sure how they did the shark. I'm not sure how they. How did they get those three barrels to get sucked under the water?

[Griffin]

I know.

[Tim Simons]

No fucking idea.

[Griffin]

That's my thing for how legendary it is. The shark didn't work. And I called out the one shot where I think it kind of falls apart. But not at the expense of the movie. Right. Every other shot of the movie, I'm like, the shark looks incredible. And I cannot believe they got it to do this. I cannot believe in 1975 doing underwater animatronics that they got it to do any successful movements. And beyond that, that they got the shot in focus. The perfect framing, the perfect performance. It's not like he's often shooting the shark in total isolation. You know, it's not like insert shots in a tank. It's like insane that they got what they did.

[David]

The producers of the film had initially thought, which seems insane scene, that they could use a real shark and use shark trainers and you perform like some simple stunts that you film and then you use a dummy for other stuff or miniatures or close ups or whatever.

[Griffin]

And. And after losing the lives of ten consecutive shark trainers, they realize that maybe they should build one instead.

[David]

As Carl Gottlieb puts it, for all the money and love that Hollywood can offer, there was no one foolish enough to claim to be able to train a shark. You cannot train a shark.

[Griffin]

Job position, course.

[David]

So Spielberg's like, but now, okay, Ben's.

[Griffin]

Going to become a shark trainer.

[David]

Spielberg's like, get me the guy who made the squid in 20,000 leagues under the Sea. All right. So they start working on that.

[Tim Simons]

Ben, the sharks would know your respect for water. They would see that in you.

[David]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

They would be like, I also like wet.

[Ben]

Wait, he gets it.

[Tim Simons]

He gets it.

[Griffin]

Ben's going to become the Owen Grady of sharks. He's going to have a bunch of sharks on jet skis following.

[David]

They do.

[Griffin]

We see you, Ben.

[David]

They do get some second unit footage of sharks. The shark cage stuff.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

Is them trying to pull that off? But I think the great white sharks are too dangerous. Yeah, right. Like you can't. You can't do anything with that.

[Griffin]

Do you know where I learned that?

[David]

Where?

[Griffin]

The movie Jaws. Yes. Watching the film.

[David]

Just so they have these mechanical sharks. It's very famous. Again, these three full scale 25 foot great white shark models.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

And there's essentially like. It's made out of steel. It's Got these flexible joints.

[Griffin]

There are images you can see of this sort of cross section. It is astonishing how complex they are, but also like complex in a very rudimentary way. Like there are so many different.

[David]

They can do side to side, they can move their jaw, they can go up and down.

[Griffin]

Like there's a lot of mechanics inside, but they're all basic, like kind of hidden. Is it shit?

[David]

Yeah, Exactly. They weighed 2,000 pounds.

[Tim Simons]

Oh my God.

[David]

They were covered in like, you know, nylon, stretchy, polyurethane kind of stuff. And they had like sort of a left side shark and a right side shark and then a dead on shark, I guess. Like they had sort of three kinds of sharks. And this one issue that they had was that when you put, start putting them in the salt water, it fucks with them in all kinds of unpredictable ways that none of them saw coming.

[Griffin]

I was going to say like just replicating shark skin I think must be a herculean task, let alone making it in a way that is flexible enough that it can respond to all the mechanisms inside of it. And then the second you put into water, right. Of course it doesn't work.

[David]

Basically it's like it didn't work very well. But there's no one who could have done it better. And they did the best they could. Like it's sort of the upshot. It's not like it's like ah, the effects guys it up, up.

[Griffin]

It's more like situation. Right, right. Patrick Willems, our buddy, did a very good video of like, you know, the classic film making lore of like, well, they were supposed to shoot the shark a lot and then the shark doesn't work. So then Spielberg has to rethink the whole visual approach and it's what makes the movie magical that the shark is so often implications in these.

[David]

Right. From Harry Hous to Hitchcock. Right? Yes.

[Griffin]

And. And I think think he learns a lot. Like the fact that as you said, he had less prep time. Everything's going wrong. This is an approach he basically tries to recreate in all of his movies after this of like keep myself on my toes, keep myself fresh. Patrick did this great villain video of like what would the movie even have been if they had the shark working.

[David]

I guess it's like a more straightforward monster movie with a bunch of awesome like shark kills and stuff. Right. Like that's what it is, is.

[Griffin]

But I'm like, even if the shark worked, quote unquote, I don't think any of that footage would have been very good.

[David]

Probably not. I don't think you could achieve realistic shark footage.

[Griffin]

No. And as we're saying, like Jaws, Bruce pulling up onto the boat, eating Robert Shaw is the most sustained direct, like closest to full body. Direct sunlight, extended view you get of the shark doing. And it's the one part where the fakeness of the shark starts to show itself. But also at that point you've bought into Jaws and Robert Shaw is selling the out of it. If the movie had seven sequences like that, it would not work.

[David]

I completely agree.

[Ben]

It's almost like when they start attaching those flotation devices to the shark. That extended sequence, you never really seeing from the shark's perspective.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And you're having to do so much work with your imagination to kind of.

[Griffin]

Brilliant.

[David]

But it sounds bad.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Like if I told you, like, hey, we're not gonna have the shark, but there'll be some barrels so you'll know where it is. Like that sounds like you've lost your movie.

[Tim Simons]

Yes, sure.

[Ben]

But I think, yeah, cutting to seeing the shark underwater, it maybe would have been not as effective.

[David]

Yeah, no, I think it was just.

[Tim Simons]

To see the barrels going underwater. Especially after moving up the Shawshank again.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

Robert Shaw repeating the like. Not with two barrels. He can't. Not with two.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

Like he says that or some version of that line three or four times so that by the time the three barrels go underneath, you're like, oh my God, this is the biggest thing we've ever seen.

[Griffin]

I mean it's the kind of like classic. One of the ways in which this film is really influential. But. But like a movie that teaches you the rules.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

That gives you the language to understand how to track stuff. And that makes you feel smart because you're like, I'm on the same page as these guys.

[David]

Obviously. 55 day shoot ballooned to like 159 days. It was a disaster. Spielberg thought he would never work again. The whole thing was crazy.

[Tim Simons]

Did he?

[David]

No. He retired from filmmaking at the age of 26 and that's that. And I don't know why we did his later movies, because there weren't any.

[Griffin]

Yeah, it's a flight of fancy on our part.

[David]

Obviously. Again, this is so discussed, but what you might not know about the John Williams score is that he had temped the movie with John Williams score from the Robert Altman movie images.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Which he found kind of experimental and disturbing. And Williams then is shown the movie with this. With his temp score. I do not know that score. Do you know it at all? More of a guy.

[Griffin]

Yeah, yeah.

[David]

Never seen images. What's that one about?

[Griffin]

It's, it's, it's psychological horror. It's him. It's him doing. Yeah, yeah, I get you. Yeah. I get image. I'm. I'm getting images confused with what's the Sandy Dennis one? Cold Day in the Park.

[David]

Yes, I have. I've seen this movie. Yeah, it's Susanna York.

[Tim Simons]

Yay.

[Griffin]

It's him doing like an internalized kind of burgmanny psychological thriller or even like a Polanski movie. Yes.

[David]

Yeah. Williams calls him laughing and says, no, no, no, this is not the score you want. You've made a pirate movie with a scary shark. You need a primal score. And he. And this has been replicated in like every single documentary about John Williams or whatever, just goes dun, dun, dun, dun, dun on the piano. And Spielberg starts laughing and is like essentially like, I didn't pay you for two fucking keys. And he's like, no, this is the theme. It's going to be good. And Spielberg has said it's 50% of the movie.

[Griffin]

But also that I think that was slightly new to have specific character theme like that. Like a musical cue that lets you know immediately the movie is now in this character's hands. And especially for a character that is largely unseen like that, that. The thing I'm always surprised by, stupidly, every time I rewatch this movie is like how much score there is and how little of it is that there's how iconic.

[David]

More classic Williamsy stuff in here.

[Griffin]

You know, like three or four other major themes and Jaws that repeat that sound like classic William Spielberg.

[Tim Simons]

And even the moments where like the two note thing that Spielberg is like, I, I didn't pay you for two notes. It feels like even when it's. That it's much more complicated. The, the. What do you call it? Not, not the Portman 2. The. The thing that. Where everybody kind of collectively thinks something is something different. What's that called? H. Like the Shazam and Kazam thing.

[David]

Mandela effect.

[Tim Simons]

Mandela effect. Like the Mandela effect of the two.

[Griffin]

Note thing is that that's the only music the entire.

[Tim Simons]

Yes. Or that it is at some point just those two notes, which it never is. It's all much more. It's there. It's just much more complicated and there's a lot more. More to it filling it out.

[Griffin]

But there's this like very kind of lush Amity island theme. And there's the sort of like the three boys are on the high. Exactly.

[David]

Some adventure themes, Right? Yes. It's a good score. One best score for John Williams.

[Griffin]

Good job by John Williams at the score. Okay. Yeah, that's for Jaws.

[David]

You know what, hold on. For Jaws.

[Tim Simons]

I actually, I did make a few behind the scenes stuff and he only.

[Ben]

Won for that movie.

[David]

He has, I believe, five Oscars. Let me double check here.

[Griffin]

They gave him five Oscars for Jaws.

[David]

What is John Williams's last Oscar? That's the one that people. That's the more challenging.

[Griffin]

His last win?

[David]

Yes, his last Oscar.

[Griffin]

That's a good question. Can you Give me the decade 90s? His last win is Jurassic.

[David]

He didn't even get nominated for Jurassic because he won for Schindler's List.

[Griffin]

Is that the last win?

[David]

That's the last one.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[Tim Simons]

My guess was going to be Jumanji. I don't know that he didn't win.

[David]

An Oscar for Jumanji.

[Tim Simons]

Did he do Jumanji?

[David]

I can find out for you. My guess is no.

[Griffin]

That's a double snub. If he didn't win the Oscar for it and didn't do it.

[Tim Simons]

Get to do it.

[David]

James Horner did the score for Jumanji. Is that. Oh, well, that's the James Horner music, right?

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

He already, of course had won an Oscar for Fiddler on the Roof, which he gets like a scoring adaptation Oscar for. But this is his first real Oscar. He wins again for a movie called Star wars and again for a movie called E.T. and again for a movie called Schindler's List.

[Griffin]

Interesting.

[David]

Yeah. Pretty cool behavior from jw. But it is really rude that he has not won for 25 years.

[Griffin]

Yes, and they also, I guess 30 years. I'm assuming they haven't nominated him at all in those 30 years. Oh, wait, an additional 20 million nominations. He gets nominated four times every year.

[Tim Simons]

Oh, it's such a clutch off season. Pickup Dave. I was worried we'd bring back the same team. I meant those blackout motorized shades. Lines.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install. No, it's easy. I installed these and then got some for my mom.

[David]

She talked to a design consultant for.

[Tim Simons]

Free and scheduled a professional measure and.

[Griffin]

Install hall of Fame son.

[Tim Simons]

They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings in the world. Blinds.com is the goat.

[David]

Go to blinds.com for 40% off site wide. Blinds.com rules and restrictions may apply.

[Griffin]

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[David]

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[David]

The film begins with kind of a famously scary sequence.

[Tim Simons]

Okay, are we gonna start talking about the movie?

[David]

Yes. In which a young woman and a young man canoodle on the beach.

[Griffin]

You're jumping way ahead.

[David]

Okay. I don't know if I'm jumping way ahead.

[Griffin]

No. Cause what I like is that it doesn't open with canoodle. It opens with this physical flirtation. This very naturalistic what you're saying. You're dropped into this overlapping dialogue. A very kind of like it feels. It feels almost a little bit documentary like. And then you get into the Spielberg specificity of visual storytelling of how their sort of flirtation happens and caught glances in gesture. Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

One thing that's fun about this whole like moving shot through that crowd is that you probably could have landed on any one of those.

[Griffin]

Exactly.

[Tim Simons]

And there would have been a little story about them or maybe they would have started running down the beach. This goes back to the episode that you did about. About west side Story or. No, Sorry. About the Fablemans. When everybody's like. When your reaction to people saying that they were underwhelmed was he made a movie about how he wanted to his own mother. Like he is in the pocket. One thing that I love about this movie is how horny it is.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

In these, like sort of. Not throughout.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

But just these little moments where it's just like Spielberg's thinking about making out.

[David]

I feel like as Spielberg gets older and becomes famously kind of unhorny, people often and famously just like Trely.

[Griffin]

Sure.

[David]

He and others would look back at Jaws and being like. Remember how Jaws is? Yeah. Kind of horny and hot and a kid explodes in it.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And Spielberg now is like. Yeah. I would not, you know, explode a child on screen anymore. Right. Like, you know, it is crazy that I did that. This is. This is young, juvenile, horny Spielberg.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[David]

In a great way.

[Griffin]

But also look, when we covered the second half of Spielberg's career many years ago, it was a pre fable men's era. How little we knew. Right. And like the cultural narrative on Spielberg was like wonder kid dork who never got over his parents getting divorced. And people made much hay of how much the divorce hung over all of his work. But then you see Fabelman's and you're like the psychosexual dynamics of this are so much more complicated.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And now, now if you like map that onto all of his other films, I think they all become more interesting, especially the early ones. And a thing I was really taken with watching this is like Sugarland Express is like a young dudes movie, right? That is like the film you expect a 20, something like full of vim and vinegar like filmmaker to make.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

Jaws is weirdly like a sad, broken middle aged man movie.

[David]

It becomes that. But not right at the start, right?

[Griffin]

No, this, the opening is kind of what you'd expect out of him, but it's for sure that thing. Right. And I, I watch this and I'm just like, how did he have the sort of like emotional intelligence? Obviously cast the right actors, right writers, you know, work the script or whatever. But to like be tapped into this. And you do go back to the Fabelman's thing of like. Right. The fundamental thing with Spielberg was he was basically like pulled into adulthood to early. Right, right. That like his mother brought him inside of a marriage and was like you hold secrets now and like your sense of the grown ups in your life has been like collapsed there.

[Tim Simons]

There is a restraint and a maturity to this that seems insane that. How old is he? 26.

[Griffin]

29?

[David]

You said he's 26 when he's making it. He's like 29 for the Oscar nominations.

[Tim Simons]

Wild. It's wild that a 26 year old made this movie with, with a. That has as much restraint and maturity as.

[Griffin]

And then like you watch this opening which is kind of horny and feels like something a little bit more like a young guy me. But it also has that Hitchcock thing of like this guy simultaneously seems really horny and also seems to have a very complicated relationship with sex.

[David]

Yes, yes, right.

[Griffin]

Which also makes sense for everything we know about him.

[Tim Simons]

Now before we actually. Can I ask a question? My first note was that the, the DP was Bill Butler for, for Jaws. For Jaws. When did he start? Because I mean, I guess I, I guess in my head I would have assumed that he had always been working with Kaminsky.

[David]

No, Kaminsky is Schindler's List.

[Tim Simons]

That's when it starts.

[David]

Spielberg does not move over to him until Schindler's List. But I don't think he did a.

[Griffin]

Lot of Slocum movies.

[David]

Right. Douglas Slocum was kind of his big guy. The Jaws Bill Butler he only worked with the one time. I think Close Encounters is Zig Vilma Sigman to him.

[Griffin]

Yes. Did Zigman do Sugar Land as well? Am I wrong?

[David]

Sugar Land was shot by Sigmund. And 1941 is William Fraker, who's another big name at the time. And then Raiders is Slocum and ET Is Alan Davio. Yeah, he would kind of move around, you know, like, do you have any.

[Tim Simons]

Idea why after the success of this that he wouldn't have worked with Bill Butler again?

[David]

I have no idea. But my guess, you know, back then it was like he probably wasn't like picking everyone with the same kind of. Of. Right.

[Griffin]

There's a little power. Who's available?

[David]

Bill Butler shot One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest. Right. Famously replaced Haskell Wechsler, who got fired or quitter, I can't remember. But yeah, Bill, you know, Bill, that's a big experienced guy. And maybe it was like, hey, this is a fucking. Like there's this story where like Spielberg was like, I want to use tripods. And Bill Butler and the crew had to be like, you can't shoot with a tripod in the open ocean. Your audience was going to throw up, like. Cause it's kind of. And he was like, no, it'll work. And they had to shoot some footage for him. And he was like, oh, oh, I see. Like, it's moving too much. Like, you know, you. You can't do this.

[Griffin]

Bill Butler only died in 2023. He was a hundred and one years old.

[David]

Got hit by a bus.

[Griffin]

He was not Orson Beaned.

[David]

I just always like, he died 101. How did he die? Oh, he was killed by ninjas. RIP to the great Bill Butler.

[Tim Simons]

Can I say in this, in this first sequence of running up and down the beach just while we're talking about the. The photography of it. Yeah, that. And I'm gonna make. This is going to be a. A very broad swing on a comparison. But just to one of your recent guests, Arkasha Stevenson, or recent.

[Griffin]

Who by the way, you. You helped connect to get on that episode. Thank you very much.

[Tim Simons]

Oh, my God. My pleasure. Because everybody should know who Arkasha is, because she's unbelievable. And the. I've never been an omen person. That's never been like my friend.

[David]

Sure. That's not right. Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

But I thought the first omen was fucking incredible. Incredible. And one of the things that I loved about it was that just about every single shot in that movie did not have to be as good as it was.

[David]

So true.

[Tim Simons]

Like she put.

[David]

So even the normal Hollywood thing now is to make sure the shots are not Very good.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[David]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

But it's almost.

[Griffin]

In fact, they seem to be intentionally bad.

[Tim Simons]

Yes. And I loved seeing.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

The amount of thought and planning.

[Griffin]

No wasted image.

[Tim Simons]

No wasted image in that movie. And to that same extent. Extent that in this first sequence, you could completely have this whole first sequence work and do it exactly what it needs to do and still be really effective. But also the shots are incredible.

[Griffin]

But it's this thing. I mean, it's why we jumped on your throat, David. Of saying two young people canoodling. Because it's like these short drama he establishes within, like 90 seconds of, like, there is a specificity and charm to the way he captures their sort of silent courtship and the. The beginning of it. You know, what feels like this could be the whole movie. We just watch these two people. As you said, we came across 40 other people who could have been the leads of the movie.

[David]

Right. But like Halloween as well. Like any movie where it's like, you're kind of in it being like, this is the movie I'm watching, and then it ends and you're like, oh, I was essentially watching a little prologue.

[Griffin]

And they don't feel for.

[David]

Exactly.

[Griffin]

Victims. It feels like there's a level of.

[David]

Compassion, but it's a very horror movie thing.

[Griffin]

You do also think about, though, like, Fabelman's has the whole sequence of him being hired to make the, like, Beach Day video.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

And his weird status of, like, you know, shooting the popular kids in a way that makes his bully more upset.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

You know, like, there's something fascinating here of him making this movie of, like, the happy, pretty normal kids on the beach who can just give each other looks and then be like, you want to go in the water?

[Tim Simons]

A comp that. I was thinking about this moment, remember in Neighbors, when they have, like, that whole plan, like the Seth Rogen movie Neighbors, when he's like, all right, once they start talking, we have 30 seconds until they decide to go upstairs and have sex. Like, and I like that. That this. Like, it doesn't matter what generation you are from. There's. If you just start looking at a member of the opposite sex for long enough, it's going to be like, all right, so we gotta leave now.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

We just gotta go have sex now.

[David]

God bless.

[Griffin]

Just quickly say the butler conversation. Right. And this is speaking what David's saying of there not being as much of a. Like this sort of like, set union between director and cinematographer. We always work with each other, and we're going to carve out time for each Other and whatever.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

Butler in 75 does jaws and Cuckoo's Nest. The year before that, he did the Conversation. Right. Within this decade, he does Grease. He does Rocky too. But then in between, between it are 80 titles you've never heard.

[David]

Right?

[Griffin]

The guy was just doing.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

Like right before Jaws, he does the Manchu Eagle murder caper mystery.

[David]

That sounds good.

[Griffin]

Like, even coming out, Jaws feel like he was treated as like, well, obviously you are the finest.

[David]

No, because that just didn't exist back then, right? Or it's just starting to.

[Griffin]

He does the omen 2. He does something called Uncle Joe Shannon.

[David]

Like it sounds good too.

[Griffin]

He's just doing.

[Tim Simons]

I don't think so. My dad is. My. My dad's a photographer. Photographer. And grew up like, you know, like in central Maine, making a living as a photographer. And I don't think that people under a certain age, basically anybody that doesn't know a world without digital photography, I don't think they understand how hard it.

[Griffin]

Is to just get any image.

[Tim Simons]

To get any image, much less a good one.

[Griffin]

Correct.

[Tim Simons]

When you don't know, you just have to be like, I understand how light works. I understand where. What the focus depth is. I understand if the sun's behind him, how to get light on their face or. Or to not have it or to like, when to take detail out. Like, I don't think they understand how hard this is. So it does make sense that a guy like that who can make Jaws and make the conversation is also like, yeah, I also have to go do the other movies because if they don't, if I don't do it, they literally don't have another human being that knows how to do it.

[Griffin]

Here's another thing that's just. I don't think people think about that much, right? You know, playback is only invented by Jerry Lewis in like the fucking 60s.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

It's still a fairly new technology at this point in time, okay? But video playback was them attaching a small camera next to the film camera and them having a monitor that showed them a vague reference image of what it was looking like. But not only is it off a little bit in orientation, it's a different fucking format, right?

[David]

You're not seeing what the shot's actually going to look like.

[Griffin]

Right now they're actually tapping a feed in to show you what the digital camera is capturing.

[Tim Simons]

And they can actually shot and they can color correct it in real time. In real time, right?

[Griffin]

So like, not only is it that tough to get any image, but even the image they're looking at for reference is not representative of whether or not that image is working. And they just have to wait for it to be thrown into a chemical bath like the Joker. And then everyone, like, goes to rushes. This thing that we don't have anymore as the sort of traditional of, like, the cast and crew getting together late at night in a screen room with alcohol and basically being like, oh, fuck, I hope these things look good. And you hear the stories of when, like, rushes were explosive, when people were like, holy shit, we have lightning in a bottle. The arc of just being like, oh, my God. It's in focus, right?

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

It's not underexposed. The image job. We have some usable version of the image. And then if on top of that, you have, like, the performance works or the shark works or any of that shit. That's why I'm saying I still can't get my head around that. They got the footage they got.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

With all the X factors, right? Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

Part of it might be the fact that they had 59 days and then it took 100.

[David]

It did take a while and it was hard. Right, right.

[Tim Simons]

Should we do a little sim sense? Check in about how Sims is doing since he got here? Sims, how are you doing?

[Griffin]

How you feeling?

[David]

It's fine. Okay.

[Griffin]

You're with a legend of twin daddom here.

[David]

It's true.

[Griffin]

An incredible resource. Worse.

[David]

Yeah. But in the field, the problem with twin parents is that they're. Which is good in a way. Like, there's no twin parent I've met where they're like, listen, listen. Three simple rules to raising twin infants. Like, it's actually, if you just do this, this and this, it'll be okay. Instead, they're just like, I have no memory of that. No, it was terrible. And I don't remember. And I remember later.

[Griffin]

The brain blocks things out in order to.

[David]

Roman Mars, friend of the show, a huge fan of the movie Jaws, is also a twin parent. And he sent me, like, a comforting email when he learned I'd had twins. It was like, honestly, after, like, three years, you're really going to feel normal again. And I was like, three years? Yeah, Roman. He's nodding.

[Tim Simons]

Yes. Well, here's the thing.

[Griffin]

Live action Moana will be out by then.

[Tim Simons]

The I, I, I, I didn't. I was talking to Ben about this before. We ran into each other down the street and we, like, sat at a nice little table and we talked, you know, congratulations. Congratulations are in order. Congratulations.

[David]

Thank you so much.

[Tim Simons]

And we talked about how I maybe hadn't Played the. And you announcing to me that you were having twins in the right way, that made you would have feel. Made you feel calm. Because I was like, oh, no. You're like, I really wasn't.

[Griffin]

I want to see if I can find the verbatim.

[Tim Simons]

Wasn't really very gentle about that. And I am sorry, but it is true. But also, Casey Bloys, who was at the time Veep was on Son, right, Was the head of HBO comedy, and then kind of slowly start moving up, and now he's, I think, running all of Matt.

[David]

Yes, no, of course.

[Tim Simons]

So he also has twins that I think are maybe six years older than ours. And when they were first born, he was like, look, it gets a lot easier at three. And I was like, cool, cool, cool. And then I would see him a couple years later, and he's like, here's the thing. Seven is when it really gets dialed in. And I was like, oh, great. And then they would hit seven, and I would see him, and he was like, you know what's great? They're 13.

[Griffin]

You're gonna love.

[David]

This is true with all parents. You're right. Like, parents are like, well, actually, now I just feel okay about it. And it's like, well, no, you. When you say normal, you mean a version of normal. You felt better about this six months in and then two years in. And then. You know what? Of course, I understand that there are.

[Tim Simons]

Like, little markers, and I just want to let you know that, like, it is a really. Of course, it's like a very beautiful thing, but you are also in the. The Possibly the hardest part of it.

[David]

I think there's no question. I think when you're. When you have young children, the hardest part is true infancy. Like that. Because that's the. The sleeplessness. The. The Them not giving you anything back. Like, it's really. You know, that's. That's an unusual feeling.

[Tim Simons]

And there is also a moment, like, even one thing that's going to open up your world. You already have a child, so you kind of already know this. But with twins, for sure is like when they're just able to hold their own bottle with their own little hands thing where it's just like, oh, oh, God. Okay, I now don't have to hold the bottle for them.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

For that.

[David]

That sounds great.

[Tim Simons]

Anyway, I love you, and I hope you're doing the best that you can.

[David]

I'm doing fine. We'll talk about. Well, I'll talk to you sometime. I should talk to you sometime.

[Griffin]

You should.

[Tim Simons]

I don't remember anything.

[David]

Yep, exactly. Useless. So were you on Veep when you had young twins? Like, was that.

[Tim Simons]

They were. They were born at the end of shooting the first season. I actually had to leave in the middle of episode seven of season one. Cuz they were born like sort of very.

[David]

That must have been really intense.

[Tim Simons]

It was very, very stressful. If. And watch in the eighth episode, you can kind of see that I'm only in there for like one scene.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

And it was because I had like flown back for one day to basically finish out some version of a storyline. I was supposed to be in that episode more, but they rewrote it. So I came out and filmed like one day, finished out and then went back home.

[David]

Right, right.

[Tim Simons]

It was. Yeah, it was very, very stressful.

[David]

Well, I'm glad you made it here. Here you are.

[Tim Simons]

And here we are.

[David]

Check. Just coming out to triumphant time.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

I feel like one of the most famous cold opens of all time.

[David]

It is. Thank you for bringing us back to the show.

[Griffin]

Certainly.

[Tim Simons]

What is the movie? Jaws.

[Griffin]

One of the most parodied sequences ever.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah, right.

[Griffin]

Spielberg himself parodies it in 1941.

[David]

41, right.

[Tim Simons]

I don't think I've seen 1941, so this is news to me.

[Griffin]

I have. Look, I'll be watching it soon for the first time. I have never been able to successfully make it through. I think I've never gotten past the 20 or 30 minute mark. But the opening sequence is Spielberg being like, I'm ready to make fun of myself. And people being like, this is the most hubristic I've ever seen.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

Wow. But again, another reason that like, this has been, the reason that this movie is so good is that this has been parodied so many times and yet.

[Griffin]

You watch the real thing and it's.

[Tim Simons]

Like the moment where she is actually taken underwater. There is all the screaming. And then the moment where it is cut short and then silent is still immensely effective.

[Griffin]

David has this very detailed Jaws towel hanging behind him which we've referenced, which is the poster image. This beautiful painted image of Jaws. Basically just going straight up, nose to the sky. Right, right. The exact kind of image you never see in the movie.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

But there is this beautiful marriage of like the poster setting the expectations for like, holy, that does look scary from that angle. And then to the point of like, what would the movie have been if the shark had worked? There's no version of it that's scarier than the one where you don't see the shark.

[David]

It's the most I know it's right. It's the most. It's an observation that's been made. It doesn't matter. It still is. So you're right.

[Griffin]

Like, it popping out as much as the poster seems exciting, would never look as startling as her being pulled down.

[David]

It is a hell of a poster.

[Griffin]

It is. But, like, I think the movie kind of doesn't work without having the poster.

[David]

The primal fear of sharks is that you won't see them.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

As someone who goes to the beach a lot, unlike you, you don't really go to the beach. Tim, what are you. Where are you on the beach?

[Griffin]

I'm more of a semi fable now.

[David]

You're from. Now you're from Maine.

[Tim Simons]

Oh, yes. This is like. I.

[David]

But are you from coastal Maine or.

[Tim Simons]

No, I'm from central Maine.

[David]

Right. And obviously even coastal Maine, like, it's chilly up there. Not everyone's, like, running into the water, but I think, you know, Maine, New England, this is where this movie is set. Obviously, this is a sharky area.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

I'm from New York. I go to the beaches in New York. There's less shark stuff there. But once in a while, while there's the sort of notice of like, hey, like, someone got bit by a shark. I don't like that in the fucking Rockaways.

[Griffin]

Don't like it.

[David]

And you know, everyone's like, Well, I mean, basically the. What they say is like. I mean, it doesn't really happen that often, so you shouldn't be too worried about it. But there's also nothing they can really say about, like. But look out for this.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[David]

Because sure, if you see a shark, get away from the shark.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

But largely it's more just kind of like, Nah, they kind of just come out nowhere.

[Ben]

The up thing is that there's now more shark attacks than ever. It's because the planet is climbing, unfortunately. But so now I feel like in the last few summers, I like to swim. Like, going to the beach, I've been very mindful of the fact that I feel like if there's some kind of person that would get bit by a shark, it'd be me.

[Griffin]

No, but going back to the earlier point, I think the sharks would sense your respect for them. I. I'm genuinely not even joking now. I think you're less likely to be attacked by a shark than almost anywhere.

[Ben]

Like a fin bump.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

They also. In all the news stories about shark sightings, it always seems to be like somebody was flying a drone or there was a helicopter flying over and they spotted sharks. And it's always like, here's the story. This person didn't know how close to a shark they were. Yes.

[David]

You hear a lot of that. Again, very chill thing that people love to hear. Right.

[Griffin]

I think it's. Ian Edwards, the great standup, has a. A bit about shark attack attacks and being like, it's weird that we refer to them as shark attacks when we're the ones invading their home.

[Tim Simons]

Sure.

[Griffin]

It's not like sharks.

[David]

It's an uncomfortable.

[Griffin]

Show up at your door and stab you. He's like, I would call that a shark attack.

[David]

But of course, the thing with sharks that I understand is that they're not actually very interested in eating us. We're not that tasty. We're a lot of bones.

[Griffin]

Sure.

[David]

And instead, more. What happens if a shark is attacking you is that it's kind of biting to find out what you are.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And then we'll probably let you go.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And then you're just bleeding to death. Because sharks are very powerful.

[Griffin]

Okay. But what I've learned from a lot of research watching the movie Finding Nemo is that if they smell blood, their eyes go all black. And all this sort of intellectualizing of, fish are friends, not food. Yes. Goes out the window, and then you have chum and anchor. Exactly. Holding them both.

[David]

Don't throw it all away, mate.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[David]

But obviously in Jaws, it feels like this shark has more of a chip on his shoulder. This guy's got kind of like an attitude.

[Griffin]

The fourth time, it's personal. This shark seems to have some personal.

[David]

This shark is basically like, you know what? Martha's Vineyard. These. I've had enough.

[Griffin]

But isn't this the, like, the thing that's so great about the Shaw speech, where you're just like, somehow this movie gets away with making this shark feel like a real shark and supernatural at the same time? I think every other shark movie and, like, the shark movie sub genre is weirdly dirty and that, like, it has very few classics, but Also, like, every 18 months, some distributor that didn't exist two days earlier releases a shark movie with four actors you've never heard of, and it just quietly makes $45 million.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

There is just kind of like a very high basement for shark movies.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

But almost all of them start to, like, pathologize the shark more, make the shark feel more magical or powerful or whatever it is.

[David]

Or there's movies like Deep Blue Sea where it's like, these are super sharks. Like, their brains have been supercharged.

[Griffin]

Meg. Or whatever.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

This is a movie where you have Robert Shaw give that speech exp. Explaining what is scary about a shark. And what is so successful in that speech is him basically saying, like, there's no rhyme or reason to this. They're just like an evolutionary, like, landmine.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

Oh, they're designed to make us terrified.

[Tim Simons]

Off of the New England thing. I. You mentioned that when we were, like, trying to figure out.

[David]

I was like, it's an iconic New England movie.

[Tim Simons]

And you mentioned you were like, just because of your New England connection, it might be interesting for you to. So. To. To come on for Jaws. And so I think with that in mind, just sort of going forward. I think I was trying. Because, again, what are you going to talk about when you talk about Jaws? I think a lot of the stuff that I kind of wrote down is, like, sort of trying to come at it with that point of view of, like, the. From knowing a little bit about both, like, a tourist facing and local facing economy and community, and the. The sense of, like. Like, they talk about it a lot at the beginning about, like, you know, when will I ever be an island? Stuff like that.

[Griffin]

If I'm not mistaken, I think we had that conversation about how long does it take to become a Mainer. Sometimes the Shining episode.

[David]

Sometimes you're never a main. Or we did talk about a little bit. Like, even. Even if you're. You live there for 30 years and you raise your children there, it's like, yeah, we weren't born here. And you said we're born insane. Like, homily about, like, baking in an oven or something.

[Tim Simons]

If the cat. Just because the cat has kittens in the oven, don't make them biscuits. Like, that just means your parents weren't born here.

[Griffin]

It is one of the smartest things ever said.

[Tim Simons]

I mean it really. But I mean, like, there is a lot of that here.

[Griffin]

Ben, there might be a new poet laureate in town.

[David]

I'm just. You just. But you said that last time. Like, I was supposed to go, like, Ah, yes, of course. It's Cicero once wrote, like, you know, you just, like, drop that.

[Griffin]

I'm like, much like Jaws because I can't.

[David]

What?

[Griffin]

You know better every time I hear it. It does.

[Tim Simons]

But there is, there is. I. One thing that I really like about it is that there is a lot of specificity to that. And, like, that is almost how we're.

[Griffin]

Introduced to the Brodies. I feel like it's like this second dialogue scene.

[David]

Right, right.

[Griffin]

Is that sort of like her trying the accent and then being like, no, but actually you're never ever, you're, you're.

[Tim Simons]

Never gonna get it.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

And, and I, I think that one thing that is interesting on this is that like so my sister is like a small business owner. She has a bookstore. And one thing that she has to combat all the time, call out the store. Oh, it's called hello, hello Books. It's in, it's in Rockland, Maine, which is in sort of in the mid coast and a really amazing town. And it is, it's sort of like halfway between, between bougie tourist destination and just like co mid coast working class main town.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

So there is always a push and pull about what you do for the year round community, but also understanding that there is a tourist community. And one thing that she constantly has to deal with is basically people from New York coming up, spending two minutes in her bookstore and then coming up and being like, you know what you should do? And she's like, I know what you should do. You should off shut the up. You should shut the up.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

And I do think it's interesting that you have to make them New Yorkers.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

Immediately puts them at arm, arm's length. So I'm not. Is this not a defense of the mayor, but somebody from out of town coming up telling you how you should run the town when they have only been there for a matter of months. I think is an interesting choice that whether or not he knew it was happening. Yes, it was interesting.

[Griffin]

Well, and even though Scheider is playing a much like milder, more empathetic version, here's a guy who's like made a lot of like city cop movies.

[David]

Yes. You know, and so he feels like a man, whatever. Fish out of water.

[Griffin]

Like just the economy of the characterization in this movie. So many things like that where I'm like, in a modern movie, that would be three scenes where everyone says exactly what they're thinking.

[David]

Yeah, right.

[Griffin]

And the backstory. And it would start with him driving into the town and then being like, now look, the locals might be a little hostile to you at first. And then you see it happen four times and it's like this is a movie in which all that characterization is done through action and behavior quickly.

[Tim Simons]

And not only that, like one thing that I have honestly only since really listening to you guys talk about Spielberg because I was never like somebody who. I just always enjoyed his movies, but I never looked at them very closely.

[David]

Sure.

[Tim Simons]

His use of space.

[Griffin]

Insane.

[Tim Simons]

And I think one of the amazing things about the opening of the movie is that when he is at the police station and they're like. He's like, I have to, like, run over to the store or go talk to somebody. They don't. He doesn't go and get in his car. They show him walk to that store. Just to be like, this is how small this town is.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

That it is a much more use. Is a much better use of your time to just walk rather than get in.

[Griffin]

Which tells you a ton.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

I mean, it's. Look, it's much discussed and we will be talking about it for the next several months. But the Spielberg Warner is really a thing that no one else can touch because he does it in a way that is so unshowy. Does not call it. That's what it is.

[David]

When. When someone points out to you that it exists. When you're a younger film fan, you're.

[Griffin]

Like, they're cuts in that.

[David]

That's not what he does. Right. And then you see, like. Oh, yeah, he does it right. In this very unostentatious way.

[Griffin]

And they are always like, in the name of Simone. Simplicity. Oh, you know what? We could link these two moments together. That makes it one setup. We spend more time getting the performances right rather than needing to break this up and spend half a day on it.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

And he is able to communicate so much in the shifts of the blocking and positioning and physicality. Everyone's relationships to the space. And it never feels ostentatious. The one that always blows my mind when I watch this movie. I don't even know what the thing's called, but that, like transportation. That thing they're on that's bringing the car. Yeah, that like, sort of like a moving barge.

[David]

Sort of like a little fairy. Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Simons]

Like a single car ferry.

[Griffin]

Right. Like this shot that basically starts with him, like, pulling the car onto that, getting out. The thing is moving in water. The camera is moving slightly. They're moving in relation to each other. The entire dynamic of the mayor, kind of like sussing him out.

[David]

It's called the Chappie Fairy.

[Griffin]

It's insane.

[David]

In the movie, it's called the Amity on time, but it exists. You can go visit it in Martha's Vineyard.

[Tim Simons]

What is it supposed to do?

[David]

Transports. Two to three cars total.

[Tim Simons]

It does also seem strange because even just watching this last night have no.

[David]

Cars or very few cars anyway, doesn't.

[Tim Simons]

The car pull on and they pull out and then they just kind of end up at the exact same spot and then the car leaves?

[Griffin]

I mean, it's kind of like it's the Goodfellas Copacabana thing where if you watch it, you're like, they move in a circle.

[David]

Right, Right. Like, if you actually think about the. What's happening.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

But you're not think.

[Griffin]

But, like, someone needs to tell you. You can't tell if you look for it, you're like. They basically start back where they enter. From the moment they enter through the side door. The entrance they'll end up going through to the theater is directly to their left.

[Tim Simons]

That's so great.

[Griffin]

And they just circle the kitchen one time and then go there.

[Tim Simons]

The. The one thing that I do will also say about the sort of, like, back story and, like, the economy and the restraint of this is that it's clear that Brody and his family have. Have moved there and he's taken this job to get away from. And he kind of mentions it offhand, like, oh, there's violence in the city.

[David]

Or, right. Scary 70s New York City. It's just not for him. He's got a kid. He wants to just settle down.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

And that, like, you know, that is a part of the story of, like, oh, well, you can't ever escape the violence. You know, we thought we were going to, but it's never really explicitly stated outside of him just kind of saying that New York in the 70s is kind of scary.

[Griffin]

Here's the other thing of movies used to just have so much more respect for the audience of they will figure it out. And it's the thing I love to say, but it's like, if you let the audience figure out, they like the movie more.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah, they.

[Griffin]

They feel smart.

[David]

My question is, okay, his job now is like, police chief in essentially a town in Martha's Vineyard, Amity. Right. A shark kills somebody. Now, I know they don't know that it's a shark, but is that something you call the cops for? There is that moment later where Dreyfus is or whoever is like, have you called the Coast Guard? And he's like, no, it was like, local jurisdiction. I'm like, what were you gonna do? Arrest the fucking shark? Like, you're a policeman.

[Griffin]

They got guys in the back trying to develop shark handcuffs, do an R.

[David]

D. At what point are you like, this is a shark attack? I am now bringing in, like, people who know about sharks. I am a policeman. I know about people. Crime.

[Tim Simons]

I don't.

[David]

That is like, bit by shark. Do I call the cops?

[Tim Simons]

I mean, I wonder.

[Griffin]

Well, but.

[Ben]

Well, I would call 91 1.

[David]

Oh, yeah, those guys.

[Griffin]

You're right. But I Think it says a lot about what the core themes of this movie are, especially the first half and the mayor and everything that. It's like the concern is immediately, how do we communicate a sense of safety.

[David]

Your job is public. Public safety. How do you, how do you maintain public safety?

[Griffin]

Because I think there is this feeling of like, how do you solve this? I don't know. It's sad. It's a tragedy when we got eaten by.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

This guy has to let everyone know that everything's okay.

[Ben]

They should have had a scene where they had someone like sit with one of the victims and draw what the. The shark looked like.

[David]

Finn.

[Ben]

And his teeth were sharp.

[Tim Simons]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Griffin]

Kind of like a jawsy thing going on.

[David]

Yeah. Imagine like a paperback and I'm swimming up here. There's this big mouth, like straight up. The initial.

[Tim Simons]

No, straight up, no bigger mouth.

[Griffin]

The teeth are like this. Almost like you're pulling the corners of your mouth down.

[David]

The initial tension of Jaws is that Brody's like, let's close the beaches. There's a shark. And Mayor Larry Vaughn. Wonderful performance in my opinion by Murray.

[Griffin]

Hamilton and an incredible suit.

[David]

Obviously an iconic suit. Howard Kramer always would say it's his favorite character because he refuses to close the beach. Wants summer to contend. Continue.

[Tim Simons]

The. The thing about. I made a little note about that jacket that he's wearing, which he actually wears twice in that there is. And this is again about the push pull of a public and public but also tourist related area is that the locals sometimes have to play into their own caricature.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

And I like that he is wearing that in that.

[David]

Right. He's not going to be like, I'm a so sober civic manager here.

[Tim Simons]

No. He's.

[David]

He's like, I'm a mascot for a beach town.

[Tim Simons]

Yes. And I like that he is doing that. I like that they made that. There is like, you know, whether or not he like really believes he's like, there is an expectation of the people coming here of like a quaintness of. Of like.

[David]

Well, also he's like, we're not going to pay our bills if we don't have the beach in the summer. Like Amity is not exactly like a thriving metropolis in the winter. Like, we need. You cannot close our beach.

[Griffin]

Also, Brody comes here because he thinks this is going to be an easier way of life. Right. I think the immediate hostility from the locals is them being like, you're innately too intense. You at your lowest register. Like, crime is not a real thing here. We need like Andy Griffith to patrol the police, you know, we need like a Mayberry department. And like, I, I either all that Jazz or Last Embrace. I said something about, like, Roy Scheider being the tautest actor.

[David]

Very taut. His skin seems kind of.

[Griffin]

It just. There is a physical tension to just his existence where I just see him showing up and I'm being like, God, just it can this guy cool it can his face relax?

[Tim Simons]

And to the, to that point of him being too wound up. One thing that I like that the movie does is like, it isn't just like, oh, he was right the whole time. He was right the whole time. Like, yeah, sharks are bad. Had right. But there, like, he took a really bold. Took a bold leap and said, sharks are bad.

[David]

Shark attacks are scary.

[Tim Simons]

There is an understanding in that. Like, yes, it is the mayor trying to put his finger on the scale, but, like, they live next to the ocean. Yeah, like, these things are going to happen.

[Griffin]

It's inevitable.

[Tim Simons]

It's inevitable. You, you have to try to be as safe as you can. But this will never be a complete without risk. And I like that he is like, yeah, maybe I am overreacting. And he does dial down.

[David]

They put a little pressure on him. They kind of. The coroner's like, well, maybe it wasn't a shark.

[Griffin]

This is what I was trying to get at, though, with the magic of the shark never crossing into the supernatural is like, I, I err on Brody's side and most of just how he reacts. But I do think after the first one, there is a logic to like, look, this is a beachside town.

[David]

It sucks there's a shark attack every few years. Like, what can we do?

[Griffin]

Yes, we all hate sharks.

[David]

Tell everyone there was a shark attack maybe. And like, that's that. Right?

[Griffin]

But you see, even when shark attacks go up, you're just like, statistically, it is very low in probability that any of us will ever be eaten by a shark. But the more time you spend in the water, the likelihood increases a little bit. The more it goes on, the more he has to, like, really stand his ground of, like, I have an obligation to do whatever I can to protect these people, even if it is only in communication. And the scene where everyone is like, sort of in the press conference or whatever, the town meeting meeting, asking him is the beach going to be closed down? And it almost feels like they're saying, they're waiting for him to say yes. They want the relief of he's taking care of us. He says yes, and they immediately all go ballistic. And the mayor Just has to jump in and go, like, for 24 hours. He's saying for 24 hours.

[Tim Simons]

Which, again, not to. Not to defend the mayor too much, but like, after one shark, this is what we're saying.

[David]

It's like maybe. Maybe it's somewhat understandable until a boy explodes.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

And in a movie with a lot of famous shots, I think that Scheider sitting on the beach in the zoom. You know, the Hitchcock zoom. The dolly zoom.

[Griffin]

Look.

[David]

That's right. The most famous shot of Jaws.

[Tim Simons]

Right.

[Griffin]

That for me and Jaws coming out of the water when they're just so impeccably timed and framed, the dolly zoom. It's not like that shot didn't exist.

[David]

It wasn't something like Spielberg's inventing it. Right.

[Griffin]

It's perfectly applied. But also, every time I watch it, I'm like, it might be the smoothest execution of it on a technical level. It is incredible how fast it is and just how buttery it is.

[David]

Yes, exactly. It's so smooth. And it also really just, like, in the language of the movie, you're like, we are kind of entering the supernatural a little bit. Right. Like, it does feel like it's like, not supernatural in terms of, like, this is a magic shark, but supernatural in terms of like, okay, now things are just not normal. And that's like, he can no longer just do what we were just doing of like, it's a beach town.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Sharks exist in the water. I can't control everything. Now it's like he's like, this is my fault. Yeah, right. Like, so there's that horror to him. And also it's like, this is something we can't control.

[Tim Simons]

I. I'm just. While we're talking about shots in that sequence, like, I. Weirdly, again, this is like the most quotable line. Like, the most quotable lines from this movie might not even be the best performed. I honestly, I think there's a part of me that thinks my favorite shot from that sequence is like, when you, like the sort of cross wipes of people walking in front of the camera.

[Griffin]

And trying to get closer to him.

[Tim Simons]

I felt like that, to me might.

[Griffin]

Be so subtly disorienting.

[Tim Simons]

Yes. And it's so it ramps up the tension of that. And this is a little bit of a young man thing. How? Well, like this, as you're a young man. I am a young man. No, I'm like a young man director that I don't necessarily know if I love the choice, but I think maybe if it's in the 70s or whatever. Like, like, like audience expectation. That whole sequence starts out with a somewhat larger woman walking into the ocean almost as like, oh, well, this is the person. It's almost like a misdirect that this is the shark. I think that is intentional as much as I don't like that it feels a little fat shamy, you know what I mean?

[Griffin]

But also you're just like, you just think he can't kill the kids.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[David]

And Spielberg has said, like, I wouldn't have the guts to do that now. Like that's, that's young Spielberg, like having the guts to be like, yeah, you didn't see that coming, did you?

[Griffin]

Oh, what's going to sound like a horrible side tangent, but I swear it's going to become relevant very quickly. Jeff Daniels talks about when he was cast in the movie Speed. Spoilers for a 30 year old movie. Do you know the thing I'm going to say?

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

I've watched this clip like a million.

[David]

Of course, Jeff Daniels, the spoiler is that he dies midway through Speed.

[Griffin]

So it has a moment where he discovers a bomb, right? And it's, oh, this guy in the last second of his life recognizes I'm about to blow up. Right?

[David]

He's in the SWAT gear and then we just like hold on his face for a second and then kaboom, right?

[Griffin]

Spoilers. Jeff Daniels sees that in the script. It's like, how do I play this? Reaches out to Roy Scheider, who I think maybe he had worked with at that point, had some direct line too and is like, in my mind's eye. This moment should be the moment of you pulling back after accidentally throwing the chum to Jaws, right? How did you get there as an actor? Like, your reaction in that shot is so incredible. How did you get there? And Roy Scheider's like, here's the secret. I tensed up the muscles directly under my eyes and my cheekbones. And then on action, I just dropped them.

[David]

Love that.

[Griffin]

And he was like, I wasn't thinking anything. It was just tension release done. And it is. They are the two most iconic shots in the movie. And they both, if you look at him, are just him doing that. Where for a guy who we've talked about is so tense to begin with, him just releasing a tiny bit is like such a holy. Something's wrong for the audience, right?

[Tim Simons]

It like one thing that I love about that quote, it sort of. It illuminates one of the things I love about film making and film acting in that like sometimes it can just be technical. And I don't want to take emotion out of these things. But, like, sometimes this is the magic.

[Griffin]

Of it for me, is the marriage of the things.

[Tim Simons]

Yes. That's the thing. And so when it is just like, what were you thinking? It doesn't matter what I was thinking. My face was tense, and then I relaxed it. And that moment of just Daniels in speed, like, it is a haunting shot, and it has haunted me since I was a kid who saw it and didn't really understand death or that somebody I liked might die.

[David]

Right. So brilliant in Speed because you're like, this guy's kind of the steady hand. He's the guy on the phone with Keanu. He's gonna help him out. And then he's like, he's gone.

[Griffin]

But that's why then they correctly identified I need to be the Scheider. Like that. Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

Right. And I just. And so I love that. That one simple technical musculature thing.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

Is what was able to communicate a much larger em. Emotional moment, even though the emotion might not have been.

[Griffin]

And you replay those two shots, and the shift in his face is microscopic.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[David]

Right. It is. You.

[Griffin]

You.

[David]

It's not like you can't really see what you're talking about.

[Griffin]

No.

[David]

But you can see an expression that feels like it lodges.

[Griffin]

Right. And you would think, oh, he must have been doing something under the hood emotionally. And this is a reflection of that. Conveying it. But he was totally just thinking in terms of technical ticket. I mean, I'm sure you've. You're a phenomenal actor, Tim, But I'm sure you've had this experience where you're, like, on set trying to crack a scene, and you're like, I just got to load so much under there. So it's, like, coming out of my eyes. And I want to underplay it, but I'm just trying to fill up. And then you look at it and you're like, none of this comes across.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Not like I'm doing too much, but just all this. I was internalizing. None of it reads.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And then sometimes you're like, I just looked at the light. Like, there's a big, bright light here. And if I look at it and my eyes are a little bloodshot right before they call action, it is a thousand percent more impactful than if I think about everyone I know who died.

[Tim Simons]

Yes. I. I mean, like. And again, I don't want to, like, take out those things because I think they have been incredibly helpful sometimes. It absolutely works.

[Griffin]

But and it's magical in a way where you're like, I had to put myself through that.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

But also, it doesn't necessarily guarantee that nothing is going to be good. Sometimes it is just look at the light. Sometimes it is. You just have to be still. And you just have to shift.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

Shift your face a little bit.

[Griffin]

A tiny bit.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

David. Do you love it when actors talk about actors?

[David]

It's very.

[Griffin]

To replace actors in movies, and then he's finally going to like the art form.

[David]

I just want all movies to be the Lego Movie with Forel.

[Griffin]

Piece by piece.

[David]

Yeah. It's just like, let's have that be all movies now. Just Legos can be the actors.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

The death of the kid is what brings in Quint, because there's sort of a shark bounty now.

[Griffin]

Screech.

[David]

Exactly. And who.

[Griffin]

One of the greatest character introductions of all time.

[David]

I probably first knew the Simpsons version of it, I think, and then I learned this version of it after the fact. True of so many movie things for me. And then Hooper, who's basically coming in being like, I am Mr. Shark. And I can tell you that the shark that killed this person is very large and abnormal. Like, this is I. You know, I'm the shark expert. And Quint's like, and I'm the shark catcher.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And I can tell you that it's. The sharks are scary.

[Griffin]

I just love that they punt quint for like, 40 minutes.

[David]

Yeah. You put him in there. He's in the mix. And then. Right. We'll check in with him.

[Griffin]

His introduction is so explosive. And you're like, so now the movie is his. And you're like, no, they all just go, like, off.

[Ben]

The air gets salty.

[Griffin]

It does.

[David]

It does.

[Ben]

Wherever you are.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

When one of the first things he says, which is in the monologue that you did at the top of this, again, I wanted reiterate, Great job, and thank you.

[Griffin]

And that was an example of me really filling up and loading in as much sense memory as I. All my feelings. Thank you.

[Tim Simons]

I think one of the first things he says is, you all know me. You know what I do.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

And.

[Griffin]

Oh, I talk about economic characterization. There's so much said in this guy introducing himself by being like, you know, my deal. And you're like, oh, this guy's been annoying this town forever.

[Tim Simons]

Yes. And I love, again, this is another sort of like, coastal main thing thing of like. Of like, the charm of the town is what draws the tourists. But also, we want to try to keep the actual workmen of this town. Like, we don't want you to see that. We want to somehow sweep this under the rug. So you get the sense that even the lo. Like the locals have locals.

[Griffin]

And like Murray Franklin trying to get Brody to take it easy also feels like, hey, look, we got this guy who all the time is like scratching chalkboards, delivering soliloquies, right.

[David]

If there's a real shark problem, we. We elevate it up to Quinn.

[Griffin]

But also that he's just like, we always have these overzealous guys who want to go on and on sharks. And we just calm them down and ignore them.

[David]

What we really care about here is lollipops and.

[Tim Simons]

And saltwater taffy.

[David]

Right? Taffy and like small roller coasters. I don't know what they.

[Tim Simons]

It's like a. There's like. I think there is something in that. Again, even if it's not the main point. I think there is something interesting there about class. There's not only the class of people that's coming to the town, there's the class of people that live there and then they are. And they all kind of look down on the class that Quint comes.

[David]

Yes, the true salty sea dog type, right? Not, not like sort of suit wearing landlubbers.

[Griffin]

But also you're like, guys like this, ostensibly, you have to imagine, run the economy the other eight or nine months out of the year for sure. You're like, I'm sure this town's economy is like overwhelmingly the summer vacation tourist months, but the rest of the. That's exporting fish.

[David]

And it's like off season. Like, you know, I remember any place you go that's seasonal and you go to like some nice restaurant and you're like, you know, it's like, yeah, in the off season, this restaurant kind of just turns into like a burger place or whatever because it's like the clientele completely changes. Like, that's how life is.

[Tim Simons]

And some of them might not even. They're just like, yeah, in October we close. Like, nobody here is employed between October.

[David]

And I'm thinking what. Because I know the Adirondacks best. And the Adirondacks has this thing of like in the. The summer, it's like this summer crowds, right? Boating and whatever, water skiing and hiking. And then in the winter it's snowmobilers. Is the people who like, are in there in the winter. And like, that's an entirely different clientele. Like, they don't. Yeah. Anyway.

[Tim Simons]

And not to skip too far ahead, but I think that class thing I really noticed at this time when Brody's wife, he's about to get on the boat with Quinn and Quinn is singing the rhyme about virginity. Like, you know, the old, you know, the kind of sea shanty rhyme or whatever.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

In that you kind of see how annoying he could be to the community. And her reaction is like, it seems filled with, not only is my husband going to go out on a boat to try to find a killer shark that could kill him, he is also terrified of water. I don't know when he's going to be back. And also he's going to be on the boat with this guy, this guy who's Talking about a 15 year old losing his virginity, which is pretty remarkable in this vicinity.

[Griffin]

Going to be playing Rogan all day on the boat.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

Shire's going to come back and be like, you made some interesting points.

[David]

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[Griffin]

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[David]

One per new customer. Play $5 and Spin Wheel to receive between 10 and $1,000 in non withdrawable casino credits for select games that expire in 168 hours [e-mail] Clash promos ends January 19, 2025 at 11:59pm Eastern Time. You've also got Hooper. And with Hooper, we have this, to me, classic Spielberg sequence where it's like, let's have him find the dead body, you know, of the fisherman in the most fun way possible for, you know, the audience is kind of relaxing for like an undersea moment, right. Where they're like, this is like an exploration moment, not like a Jaws moment. Right. And then like his head pops out and his eyes hanging out.

[Griffin]

Unbelievable.

[David]

And everyone like jumps, screams. And then to me, most importantly, laughs. Like the whole audience laughs because they're just like, oh, he got us again.

[Griffin]

I'd say it's also the only image in the movie that like goes into full like EC comic comics.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

You know, like Horror.

[David]

It's more like Rhett Kormany in a way too. It's like more R rated. This film is hilariously rated pg, which is funny because it has like nudity.

[Tim Simons]

This one wasn't the one that created PG.

[David]

It's more like Temple of Doom Gremlins, mid-80s.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

Back then it was just kind of like, look, there's R rated movies. There's pg, which is basically like, I don't know, bring your kids if you want to.

[Griffin]

Right. And R rated movies were like saved for just. If a film mentioned comedy communism, that would get north read.

[David]

Right. It's like this film has divorce in it. Rated R. Right. You know, like something like that.

[Griffin]

Right. But you put John.

[David]

It's like, yeah, Tits and Blood, pg.

[Griffin]

That was. That's the funniest thing is you put tits in a movie and people will be like, well, I guess it can't be G, right?

[David]

And then. Right, yeah, exactly. Like Lawrence of Arabia. They're like, yeah, it's probably a G. Who cares, right? I don't know. Like there's some movies that are G. Like I think like Star Trek the Motion Picture is a G. Like there's things like that where they're just kind of like. I don't know, I didn't see anything too crazy happen. I guess it's a G. It is.

[Griffin]

Wild how few G movies there are. Are now where PG has basically become G. Yeah. Because now even that doesn't exist that much now.

[David]

Like peril qualifies you for like a PG or whatever.

[Griffin]

Yeah, Like Paw Patrol is PG because, you know, it runs the risk of making that turtle. That's what I'm saying.

[Ben]

On the edge of falling off the bridge.

[Tim Simons]

That moment, even last night when I was watching it, I had forgotten it was coming and I jumped.

[David]

It's a great. It's the best jump.

[Ben]

His one eye is flipping floating.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Along with his head and a bunch of maggots.

[Ben]

Right. But the question is, was he so scared that his eye popped out his head? Yeah, because how else did it get out?

[Griffin]

That's his fright feature.

[David]

I think some, you know, some fishies might have been nibbling on it.

[Ben]

Oh, sure, it loosened it up a little.

[Griffin]

Well, that's headcanon, David. You can't support that.

[David]

Yep. I mean, I guess you're not like relaxed in that sequence. He is exploring a wreck or you just don't think that's going to happen.

[Griffin]

No, I like that there's this sort of like escalation to the frenzy of the Shark becoming a fun thing because it starts to be perceived as, like, a potential winning lottery ticket for the locals.

[David]

Right. Are you, in a way of sort of like, are you tough enough in a way?

[Tim Simons]

Right.

[David]

Yeah. Like, when. When Quints looks to his son, like, go in the lagoon, please. He's like, nah, that's for, like, old ladies. Like, I don't want to go there.

[Griffin]

This is where I'm like. It's the shit that, like, reminded me so much of the various stages of. Of, like, the COVID experience where there's this thing of, like, oh, what? So are you one of these guys who's scared you're going to wear a mask in public? You know, like, that whole kind of thing where you're like, there are these, like, dueling public narratives of how we should respond to this that then becomes like a reflection on the individual and everyone getting in their head of, like, what do I want to project to others?

[Tim Simons]

I want to throw out a couple moments that I had. Two things that I really liked. One was a sort of character, one for the wife, who is sort of eventually, especially once they get out on the water, sort of forgotten. But I do like the moments she has leading up to that. At one point, I think when. When Hooper comes over to the house, he says, is your husband home? I'd really like to talk to him. And she says, so would I. Just. And I like that. That's just a very simple, simple moment that we don't really dwell on. But it's clear he's been in his head and not moment with him in the sun.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

Is such an important, like, reset moment for the movie.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

And I feel like is infamously one of those things that Spielberg kind of just discovered on set. There was no moment like that in the script. And what could just be a scene of, like, Brody being inconsolable after this child death becomes this, like. Like, he needs to keep going moment. You have this small moment of humanity and human connection in a way where, like, his wife can't reach him because she's trying to talk to him like an adult.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And he is, like, too deep in grief.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

But his son just mirroring his face is kind of just breaks through.

[Tim Simons]

Oh, it's so great.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

And I also love. He says something at one point where it's like Hooper says, like, why do you live on an island if you're so scared of the water? And he says, it only looks like an island if you look at it from the water.

[David]

That's true.

[Tim Simons]

I Don't know what I mean. I just really.

[David]

I love that. I mean, but it's so true. Like so many people who live. I feel like an island community is like, I don't learn to swim. Like that's where I don't go. I live in the island. Like, not land.

[Griffin]

I'm sorry, land.

[David]

Anyway, right, this is. We're now. We're about to transition into the mega final act. Like the last hour of the movie.

[Griffin]

Just call out because she's about to disappear from the rest of the movie.

[David]

Lorraine Gary. Lorraine Gary, the wife of Sidney Sheinberg.

[Griffin]

Who was the president of Universal at the time.

[David]

Yes, sure.

[Griffin]

And then she becomes the like main connective tissue through all the.

[David]

She's in jaws 1, 2 and 4. She's not in 3. 4 is her. Revenge is her final film role. And that was like a. I think a small role. Like, because she had basically.

[Griffin]

Basically, the son is played by a different actor in every movie. Right. Because Dennis Quaid is him in three and Lance Guest from Last Starfighter, I think is him in Revenge.

[David]

I don't know.

[Tim Simons]

Okay, those are fucking.

[David]

She did a bunch of tv.

[Tim Simons]

Jesus Christ, Griffin.

[David]

But her movie roles are Jaws, she has a tiny role in Car Wash. She's in I never promised you a rose garden. In some sort of mid sized role. She's in a comedy called Zero to 60 with a tiny roll. Then she's in Jaws 2, 1941.

[Griffin]

Wow.

[David]

Which is. And then a George Burns movie called Just the and Me Kid. And then she retires. Also kind of comes back from the re. Josh, the Revenge is sort of like a hat tip.

[Tim Simons]

Yes, the. It also kind of feels like the name of every George Burns movie. I don't.

[David]

Yeah, just you and me.

[Tim Simons]

Just you and me, kid.

[David]

But she. I mean, like as much as.

[Tim Simons]

Right.

[David]

She's sort of this odd kind of nepoe. Higher. She is. She's good. She's very effective in the movie.

[Griffin]

I agree. I think she's incredibly good. Yeah.

[David]

But yes. Okay, like after the final. The sequence with the kids pretending to be the shark and then like the Jaws actually shows up at the other.

[Griffin]

End and another like, cut out the fucking shoe leather thing that like, you.

[David]

Know, we don't see the aftermath of that. We get that.

[Griffin]

Well, you have your scene with Brody and the mayor where he has his unraveling of like, my son was on that beach. Like, it finally hits him. He doesn't become like, quote unquote, a good guy, but he also was never coded as just simply a Bad guy. But he's, like, starting to process it enough that Brody just. Just goes, like, you have to give me the money.

[David]

Right? We're going to hire Quint. We're going to go get the show.

[Griffin]

And then jump straight to. Basically, we're getting on the boat. Like, it's like the whole movie has been the. The holding back on activating Quinn, and he's just like, give me the cash. Hard cut, too.

[Tim Simons]

So I recently relistened to the Interstellar episode. You guys.

[David]

Did I talk about this a lot on the Interstellar episode, right? How it jumps from. Not Jaws, but, like, how it jumps from. This is a big point for me about what's so brilliant about Interstellar. From, you know, are you going to, like, here you've figured out what we're doing here at NASA to the. The things taking off?

[Tim Simons]

Yes, yes.

[David]

And, like, there's no, like, prep or, like, here, meet everybody.

[Griffin]

Cut from him driving off in the car crying, to the rocket.

[Tim Simons]

Rocket shooting up. And even though they do a little bit of, you know, they. I think they have the moment that we were talking about with the rhyme. I think that might be after the silver, but there is that moment sort of through the pier when it, like, it is sort of zooming slowly in on the ocean. And it reminded me of that Interstellar thing because it was like, it is undeniable now the movie has to go to the ocean, and it is sort of pulling you out underneath the pier. You were sort of leaving the safety of land and going out into the water. And very soon after that, we were just out on the water.

[David]

And obviously, Spielberg was right in that you do feel like you're out on the open ocean. And it does feel different. You feel like you're in a new environment.

[Griffin]

Totally. But also, like, how many fucking movies and scripts do you read where you're like, why is this scene in it outside of some feeling that it must be in there? You know, like, this notion of, I guess you got to show how this happens, and you're like. But in reality, showing that scene does not give the audience any new information, and it's not entertaining.

[David]

William Goldman thing of, like, don't show someone trying to hail a cab, right? Like, they either put their hand out in a cab arrives because you need them to get in a cab, or you're writing a scene about how hard it is to hail the cab, in which case that better be pretty pivotal.

[Tim Simons]

To the part you're writing, right?

[David]

Like, I don't need two minutes of someone being, oh, My God. You know, like, you know, like, you know, just obviously like you're allowed to break the laws sometimes of just like he puts his hand out, he gets a.

[Griffin]

But also like Quint feels like the inevitable.

[David]

Yeah, you're right.

[Griffin]

And now it spent this long avoiding.

[David]

Him, but now we're with them.

[Tim Simons]

Right?

[David]

And now we're in his world.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

And now they're both. Cooper is kind of trying to prove himself to Quint like you say. And Brody is kind of like, now I'm stuck on this fucking boat. I'm like, I'm Landman.

[Griffin]

I hate this.

[David]

I hate this. And like the chum moment that we already talked about with Jaws popping out, he's complaining about, he's like, I know how to drive boat. I can like go full ahead or whatever. Like. And then, you know, I'm said, I'm doing this. And then of course that's when Jaws is like, by the way, yes, hello.

[Griffin]

I do love just to jump back one last second. But the, the last pre boat thing. I want to call out the whole like narrative culdesac around the guys successfully catching the shark and everyone doing basically like the full parade being the like George Bush mission accomplice thing of like we are telling you that we have defeated the problem. And Brody and Hooper both just being like, well, Hooper recognizing the bite circumference is wrong. Saying it's relaying it like it's such a good. Oh, this is the moment that these two guys are going to be inextricably linked.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

That they share this and no one else listens. And they're the only two who are concerned and won't accept this.

[Tim Simons]

And I also love that whoever's taking the picture basically says, get out of the picture, nerd.

[Griffin]

Yeah, you're this up.

[Tim Simons]

You're this up. Get out of there. Because you still trying to measure the fucking bite. And they're like, get out.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

But you're right, you cut to the high seas and it's like the movie immediately feels so different.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And also now like Shaw is controlling the tone of the film.

[David]

He is as an actor, which is.

[Griffin]

What makes the performance so seismic.

[David]

Right. And that's sort of a crucial point is when he like smashes the radio because he's like, no, no, like this is me taking on this shark. We're not calling the coast guard or whatever because what should happen is right. Someone just comes in and like machine guns this thing. Like it's like, it's a. This is a problem shark. This is Not a regular situation.

[Ben]

It's a great white shark.

[David]

It's a great white shark.

[Griffin]

It's a fantastic white shark.

[Tim Simons]

I do kind of love when. Right at the beginning, you see how nervous they are when basically, like, Quint is basically just treating this like any other fishing trip. Yeah, he's just, like, ripping beers and, like, he's got an actual fishing pole.

[David]

Also, they're playing plan is just like, put chum around, the shark will show up, and we shoot harpoons at it. And. Right, right. Like, they don't have, like, a complex plan, really, but he's gonna try and.

[Ben]

Catch it with the giant fishing pole at some point.

[David]

Another, of course, Hooper's plan is like, I'll inject it with strychnine, where it's like, what?

[Tim Simons]

And also, like, I mean, Brody has, like, a very cop plan at one point when he's just like, what if I just shoot at it? What if I just unload it just.

[David]

For, like, I don't know how people deal with sharks. I'm not a shark expert, but it just kind of suggests to me the right. No one really has a full proof, like, shark problem.

[Tim Simons]

Here's your shark solution. Brody's treating it like somebody was trying to hop the turnstile in the. In the subway.

[Griffin]

Well, and Quinn has this very interesting strategy. His sort of whole approach to shark killing is, I watched all of my friends get eaten by sharks across three days, and now I'm insane.

[Tim Simons]

Right.

[Griffin]

Right. Like, it is. What is so great about the monologue is it kind of explains him in a way that also doesn't feel too neat, because you're like, oh, this is his backstory. This is why it's personal. Right. This is why this guy has devoted his life. But also, you're like, oh, but this guy also lost his mind in this moment.

[David]

He's not just got, like, a regular problem with sharks because they eat people. He's got a really, really big thing about sharks.

[Griffin]

Right. And it's the kind of. The only thing that makes him happy is to watch a shark. Like, that's my read on it is like, for every shark I kill, I bring back the spirit of one of my friends. Like, there's no, like, mental calculation.

[David]

He's also not, like, I really want the good people of Amity to, like, be able to go to the beach.

[Griffin]

Those people.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

He sings dirty limericks at them from his boat.

[Tim Simons]

Likes, too, too. And demands apricot brandy and sings bad songs simply to make them uncomfortable. Like, you know me. You know what I Do like. Yeah. You go crazy all the time about sharks.

[Griffin]

Dare I say it, Tim, Does Robert Shaw's performance as Quinton Jaws remind you at all of a. And I think you should leave sketch. There is kind of a Tim Robinson energy here.

[David]

Which one, though?

[Griffin]

Demanding Apricot brandy. Doing things his own way.

[Tim Simons]

Are we gonna. Can we try to get that back? I just ball up. Which sketch, though? It's not jumping out to me.

[Griffin]

This is the thing. The first one I jump to is the Tim High Decker charade sketch. But that. That's not even Tim Robinson. But I do feel like there's that kind of, like, bullheadedness.

[David]

Yeah. But that's still. That's a very different type.

[Tim Simons]

David.

[Griffin]

This is a.

[Tim Simons]

Are we doing this just to annoy David? Because if so, I'm happy about it.

[David]

It's annoying. I find it quite annoying.

[Tim Simons]

Okay.

[David]

No, no.

[Ben]

But should I bring the Carson Daily article?

[David]

Here's the reason that. That this doesn't work. The Tim Robinson thing really is something that a lot of people independently bring up, especially about George c. Scott and Dr. Strangelove.

[Griffin]

Yeah. I do think we were kind of the first ones to bring it up. Right.

[Tim Simons]

I think.

[David]

But I think you're kind of forcing it on this one.

[Griffin]

Like, Tim Robinson feels pretty organic, pretty natural.

[Tim Simons]

One thing, it's almost this. Weirdly, this Robert Shaw performance is almost like when he does those two monologues is almost so grounded.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

That you can't put the Tim Robinson thing on it.

[Griffin]

I'm not saying maybe it's too small a slice, because there's a. There's a certain energy to which he imbues that with the feeling of it being the most important thing in the world. And then he also dies a shocking death.

[Tim Simons]

You know, for.

[Griffin]

I think you should leave.

[Tim Simons]

You know what?

[Griffin]

It's the too small slice.

[Tim Simons]

It is too small slice. Robert Shaw is kind of ripping off too small a slice in these. Yeah.

[Griffin]

They use too small a slice.

[Tim Simons]

David is fully just, like, checking where Robert Shaw eats the gift receipt for the apricot brandy.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

And then he makes. Brody, like, Hooper does, like, the scientific thing where he makes. He eats one and then he eats the other one. He's like, no, he touched it.

[Griffin]

So Cut Brand is just really funny.

[Tim Simons]

It really is. He's like a whole case. Like, how long are they going out there? This dude's going to drink.

[Griffin]

He's never coming back.

[Tim Simons]

He's never coming.

[David]

How long are they out there? Just a night. Two nights. What are we talking about? I don't know.

[Griffin]

But that's what I love. I love that it's like, it becomes abstract.

[Tim Simons]

And also like in some of the reverse shots of the boat, like later on, they're like kind of not that far out. Like you can see the island.

[David]

Yes, well, because I think shark attacks and stuff happen close. Obviously close to shore. Because people go that far out. Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Simons]

I. I want to throw out a shot that is just incredible of Robert Shaw on the pulpit with the sun behind him, which just again, like, it's an unbelievable. Just doesn't have to go that hard. And it does.

[Griffin]

Let's just say more generally, this is one of the all time great movie looks.

[Tim Simons]

Yes.

[Griffin]

Quint is just like a perfect looking character. And a lot of it is like Robert Shaw's face, his like captivating eyes.

[David]

Big nose.

[Griffin]

Yes. But then like the facial hair, the.

[Tim Simons]

Outfits, the fucking hat with like the.

[Griffin]

The weirdest bend in the brain.

[David]

Yeah. The kind of very. The peak.

[Griffin]

Yes. But it's like off center and like a really sharp angle.

[David]

There's the Indianapolis monologue. Obviously, the Shar sequence is incredibly exciting.

[Ben]

The freaking fishing. And it's thrilling. Somehow. Fishing's not thrilling, but like the long.

[David]

Sequence of Shaw setting up the fishing line while no one's really paying attention to what he's doing.

[Griffin]

Get behind me.

[Tim Simons]

Oh, yeah. When it's just like the little clicks of the thing.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And that belt. His whole heart.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

I love that.

[David]

The barrel thing we mentioned, obviously sort of a brilliant workaround that just like sort of makes the movie better.

[Ben]

They introduced the idea to do it explosive.

[Griffin]

He's gonna do it. We'll get to it.

[Ben]

The pressure tanks.

[Tim Simons]

Oh, yeah. He pulled the wrong. Pulled the wrong side of like the sheep shank or whatever.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

And then it like we established that the tanks are explosive.

[David]

Right. What am I going to do?

[Griffin]

It's Jaws. They kill the shark. What do you want from me?

[David]

I mean, it is true.

[Ben]

It's a shark. It eats him. What do you.

[David]

Well, because there is.

[Griffin]

They use the barrels.

[David]

It's true that there is only. So. Because like in the book, both. Everyone in the book, everyone except for Brody, dies.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

So Richard Dreyfus Hooper dies too.

[Griffin]

It is like this in Jurassic, where in both cases you're like the character who dies in the book. Let's have him make it to the end. And they're the same character.

[David]

Same sort of version of the. Yeah, right. You're right. Right. But in the book also, they just sort of wound the shark enough that it finally only Dies. It's a little underwhelming. And Spielberg was like, I think we should, like, explode the shark. Yeah, really good idea.

[Griffin]

You know what else is great about it?

[David]

Smile, you son of a.

[Griffin]

Sure. But also, I feel in the movie, a catharsis to them blowing up this thing.

[David]

I mean, the.

[Griffin]

The blow, like the filmmakers, right?

[David]

Where they're like, they.

[Tim Simons]

Right.

[David]

They never have to work with that thing again, right.

[Griffin]

To be like, picture rap on shark done 100%.

[Tim Simons]

The.

[David]

Obviously an underrated, but such crucial little choice. And I'm not saying that we're done talking, but, you know, it's. It's not just that they blow up the shark, but then that they paddle home afterwards like nice little boys, letting the audience kind of go like, okay, you know, like, you know, as you're walking out, you're not just walking out with, like, jesus Christ, I'm so rattled. Like. But there is this sort of, like, sweetness.

[Griffin]

But there's that final shot, and you're like, oh, my God, they're paddling. Buck back up onto Lamb. We're gonna see, like, Brody reunite with his wife. We're gonna see the mayor apologize.

[David]

It's like, no, no, no.

[Griffin]

And then very infer. It's almost surprising when credits start to fade in over that image.

[David]

Right.

[Tim Simons]

And it's just like a nice shot of the island.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

You don't even, like, see them paddling onto the beach and then walking off. It's just like, oh, here's a nice shot of the island.

[Griffin]

I think it's made clear enough. We've made enough references for guest availability, recording order, timing, scheduling stuff. This and Jurassic are the two we recorded very close together. True, out of order.

[David]

Two very famous movies.

[Griffin]

But also they are so paired.

[David]

They are.

[Griffin]

And even I feel like Jurassic does the same thing of end the movie. Once they're getting away, all you need to see is just that they got back. This ends with they made it back to land. That ends with they're in the helicopter. You don't need to, like, resolve any of these threats.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah, right.

[David]

No, we're going to.

[Tim Simons]

We.

[David]

We figure all that out with ease. Right? Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Simons]

The. I like in that scene around the table where Quint and Hooper are finally getting a Hopper. Or Hooper.

[Griffin]

Hooper.

[David]

Hooper.

[Tim Simons]

Hooper. I may have said Hopper earlier.

[David]

Sure.

[Tim Simons]

The. Oh, sorry, guys. Really embarrassing. I like it when he, like, offhand in. In one of, like, you know, they're telling all these war stories about how they got their scars or whatever. That then leads to the big monologue. But at one point Quint says something about like I got this one when I was out celebrating my third wife's demise.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

Like that's just the lead in to one of the stories.

[David]

Then I like that Hooper gets him with the Mary Ellen heartbroken right here like that. That Quint really likes that. Quint likes a good joke.

[Tim Simons]

It is great to see after all the like, you know, you got city hands too busy counting money all your life again. Like the class thing between them bond. To see them get along is really amazing.

[Griffin]

Yes. Yeah. The. The singing together.

[David]

Yeah. But it's good that Quint doesn't make it. I think this is how Quint should go. He should get eaten by the biggest shark there ever was.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[David]

You know what I mean?

[Griffin]

Like to a certain degree it does feel like this guy has been waiting for the release. Like it's part of what makes his performance so incredible. Incredible is that like doesn't fall into like maniacally laughing with joy like finally. But it does feel like it. It's a sense of inevitability. Why is this guy hunt sharks? Cuz the only way he can still get hard is to kill a shark. But also he just knows that someday a shark's going to get.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like he should have died then, right? He should have died then and he didn't.

[Griffin]

So he's got it broken beyond repair.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[David]

What are you looking up, Griffin?

[Griffin]

I'll. I'll say it for. If I pull it out in time.

[Ben]

He goes out fighting too. We gotta honor that.

[Griffin]

Yes, that's true.

[Ben]

He grabs that machete and he's like.

[David]

Yeah, it doesn't do much. The shark eats him.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

I mean that whole moment of the shark eating him while also incredibly terrifying is just really well played in that. Like even with all of the inevitability of it with him being like. I'm just intentionally putting myself in situations in which I could get killed by a shark because that's what how I should have done died. He is still like this sucks. I am terrified that this. And I'm trying to make sure this shark doesn't eat me.

[Griffin]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Tim Simons]

Oh, one more little magical thing. David.

[David]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

You know what? We're doing great, man.

[Griffin]

We're doing an incredible good job.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah. So there is a moment where Brody is in the foreground and Hooper's up on the top up on the bridge behind them and a meteor streaks behind them them which is a. A thing that I think is the kind of magical that happens on a set that means you are going to make a movie that will last forever. You know what I mean?

[Griffin]

Sure.

[Tim Simons]

You can't plan for that. You can't. Whatever. It's like at the end of Barton Fink where the, the shot that they use for the last shot is when that, like that the bird like dives straight down into the ocean, right? Like, not planned. It just happened. And it happened to be framed perfectly. And now the movie's legendary. I think that meteor is the kind of thing it's like, even if you could put that in post, you wouldn't think to be like, what if a meteor was streaking behind them? It just happened and it's magic.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Yes. And you know, you shoot 150 days, you're about. You end up getting a couple miracles.

[Tim Simons]

You kind of get a couple free ones.

[Griffin]

I was talking to a friend of the show, Alex Ross Perry, about just the state of Lego sequels and reactions reboots and especially through the horror prism. Right. I mean, the sort of like shift from franchises go on forever to the 2000s. We need to reset all these franchises to modern sensibilities to now the. We need to return to the original timeline of franchises and bring everyone out for one final go round. And I think we're talking about this in relation to like the failure of the, the Blumhouse exorcist experiment meant. And like, is there anything that is still sacred? Is there anything that is actually never going to be touched? And he put forth Jaws. He's like, jaws feels like the one thing that everyone's like, you can't do it. And I said, isn't that so funny when there are three Jaws sequels?

[David]

Yeah, but there's another one that's like, that what ET Yeah, the thing is, like, it's kind of Spielberg movies and Indiana Jones exited that, but everything else kind of didn't.

[Griffin]

Yes. Yeah. Now even, like, there is one of my least favorite films of the last decade, that insane ET super bowl commercial that was like seven minutes long and brought Henry Thomas back and was quote, unquote, sanctioned by Spielberg to some degree. Where I was a little astonished. Where it's like, obviously like Spielberg will parody Jaws himself. Other people do it, whatever. But I was like, I know it doesn't count. It's not a movie. I was like, how dare you rebuild the puppet for this.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

There is like a purity to ET Only existing on camera one time.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

In this one time period. But it is interesting. It's something I've thought about a lot where something I think about the fact that they made three Jaws sequels. The second one was successful, though, with a major drop off. The third one had an even bigger drop off. The fourth one got to the point where it was like, people hate this and it bombed. Where there was this feeling of like, oh, they made three. They made some money off of it. No one thinks about them again, basically only, like, Jaws dorks who, like, have the cultural memory of living through them and are fascinating with them as curios. It does feel like there's this collective sort of amnesia of like, Jaws is a perfect movie that exists in a vacuum.

[Tim Simons]

There. There is a. I wonder if part of this is like, to what we were talking about right when we first. First started, that it is, in a way, sort of so timeless and so perfect. You, if you were going to remake it, you might think like, oh, we have to put more blood and gore into it. But in a way that is already there. The. The. The child exploding, the other thing, the guy's leg hitting the bottom of the ocean. Like, it's horrifying.

[David]

You can just make a shark movie, which they do. And that's sort of the thing with the Exorcist. Like, just make an exorcist movie. It doesn't have to be the ex.

[Griffin]

I found interesting. I don't know if J.J. got into this at the dossier at all, but they obviously immediately want to do a sequel and fast track it.

[David]

Right?

[Griffin]

And Spielberg was kind of like, I don't want to go back and do that again.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

And they were like, okay, cool. And like, two times they circled back to the idea of doing the Quint Indianapolis movie.

[David]

Right, right. Which makes some sense.

[Griffin]

Which in certain ways, you're like, is that worth unpacking? Isn't it better to let it live as the monologue? But on the other hand, you read about the other three movies and you're like, that probably would have been the smarter way to go, but it would.

[David]

Have been quite a nasty movie. Right? Yeah.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Jaws was a very big success at the box office. It was the biggest success ever of. Of movies of all at that time.

[Griffin]

Yes. Do you know this, Ben, that Jaws basically invented the wide release, Right.

[David]

And of course, what we think of as a wide release, it was only like 483 theaters or whatever, but this was the first time. Now, the Godfather had kind of started that a little bit, like, started that concept. Not the opening weekend, but the like, let's go wide fast and it'll make a lot of money.

[Griffin]

Right?

[David]

But Jaws is like let's open wide.

[Griffin]

Jaws is the like the square one of opening weekend box office culture.

[David]

Yes. It's the beginning of everything.

[Griffin]

Earlier movies in the box office game.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

But this is the first one where it's like there is a business being built around marketing blitz telling people this movie will be playing in every state on this day.

[David]

Wow.

[Griffin]

And you want to be there opening weekend.

[Tim Simons]

What, was that accidental? Was it creating like the idea of a summer blockbuster?

[David]

Universal was very, very focused in their strategy. Like this was a brilliantly executed release outside of Spielberg or whatever.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Universal like invented a new kind of release. They did unprecedented national TV spends for advertising that never been done before. There is toys, sort of like beach.

[Tim Simons]

Towels, blankets, board games, things like that for the listener. David dismissively gestured in Griffin's direction. You probably could hear that. But I just want to say it.

[David]

The film made $100 million, which was no movie had ever done.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

The Godfather was the record holder at $86 million. Jaws beat it.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

What was the Jaws budget?

[David]

The listed budget, I think, think is like $9 million. It may have been gone over that.

[Griffin]

I think I read that Jaws 2 ended up costing 30 million, which was the most expensive movie by a significant margin at that point in time. But Jaws 2 reads like almost had an even more disastrous production. But yes, it does feel like Robert Evans was sort of using Godfather as this guinea pig of like, is there a different way to release movies? Is there a way to like maximize the money by like doing it front loaded rather than the long tail word of mouth thing? And I think it was also tied to both of these being based off of best selling books and having some like, it is kind of the start of like built in IP culture and like this sort of shit. But it did feel like Universal saw the Godfather thing, which happened in a much smaller way and was like, what if we committed all the fucking way to this? And it also makes like the summer movie a thing which obviously for this it was tied into like, we should release this in the summer. It's a beach movie.

[Tim Simons]

Right. This, this might just be ignorance on my end. Were all movies at that point released in the way that we see like movies like Oscar plays. They would just be like, release them in a city, let word of mouth, then they would bring it to Cleveland.

[David]

It wasn't like road shows exactly, but much smaller releases and. Right. Like a very slow spreading over weeks and.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Oh yes.

[Griffin]

Yeah, well, and. And like, you know, they movies would have their big premiere in New York, but the premiere Would be a thing that people could buy tickets to that would was sort of like what we now think of as like a roadshow screening where there was like a pamphlet and you had. There's a dress code. But you're seeing it at one of the big grand Broadway single screen movie palaces along with the stars. And that would be the press of like, this movie is premiering. And then you read it in your Wichita paper. You're like, I wonder when it's coming here. You know, Got it. And it was less of a coordinated, oh, it's slowly expanding market to market and more like when is your local theater negotiating to get print of this movie? There was not the same sort of set intentionality. Godfather started to build in the intentionality, but it wasn't opening weekend. It was building a little bit. And then when are we going to go super wide and tell people Godfather is everywhere.

[David]

Film opened June 20, 1975. Number one at the box office.

[Griffin]

Wow.

[David]

Number two at the box office is a sequel, Griffin.

[Griffin]

Number two at the box office.

[David]

A comedy sequel.

[Griffin]

1975, it's a comedy sequel.

[David]

Yes, it is. The fourth in a series. Is the fourth long unwieldy series in.

[Griffin]

A long, unwieldy series. How many do they make in total?

[Tim Simons]

New Year's Eve of this year no longer be the year.

[David]

This is a weird series, Griffin. It's hard to explain, but I think.

[Griffin]

Technically you think it's nine. But it's.

[David]

It's not always the same star.

[Griffin]

It's not always the same. Oh, it's. It's a fucking Clouseau movie.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

It's the fourth. Is it the Pink Panther Strikes Again?

[David]

No, it is the return of the Pink Panther. The Pink Panther Strikes Again is the fifth out.

[Griffin]

Only off that.

[David]

And this is the one with Sellers returning because he wasn't in the film. Inspector Cluso, despite playing that character.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

This film was a major commercial commercial hit and had been number one for, I think, several weeks.

[Griffin]

Big franchise.

[David]

Yes. So that's number two. Number three is a new Hollywood film. We mentioned it. It got an Oscar nomination for two or two.

[Griffin]

But not one of the best picture nominees.

[David]

No, it was not a best picture nominee. Very like just a prototypical new Hollywood.

[Griffin]

Got acting nominations. Yeah, yeah. Shampoo.

[David]

Shampoo.

[Griffin]

Shampoo.

[David]

Right. That's just like the most new Hollywood movie where you're like, what's it about? It's like, I don't know, Warren Beatty people. And it's like kind of about Richard Nixon.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

It's like. But really it's like about a horny.

[Griffin]

Hairdresser and you're like. What's it based on? You're like kind of John Peters, but also just baby. The actresses in the movie.

[David]

Warren Beatty.

[Griffin]

It's like an Oros Borus.

[David]

Number four at the box office is a roadie drama. Road drama.

[Griffin]

A road drama.

[David]

Never seen it, but starring a. A famous sort of road actor, I would say. He's in. He's on other like road road movies.

[Griffin]

He's in other road.

[David]

No. I'm not sure how helpful a clue that is.

[Griffin]

Huh? It's not a Burt Reynolds.

[David]

No, no, no. It's not that famous.

[Griffin]

Okay. Huh.

[Tim Simons]

Is it Dennis Hopper?

[David]

No, no.

[Griffin]

It's not Steve McQueen? Less famous.

[David]

Less famous.

[Griffin]

Less famous.

[David]

He's in movies. We've covered.

[Griffin]

He's in movies.

[David]

We've like car movies.

[Griffin]

Is it Paul Lamat?

[David]

Paul Lamat.

[Griffin]

It's a La Mat picture.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Griffin]

And it's a roadie drive. Am I not gonna know that?

[David]

I don't know. I sort of know the title. I've never seen the film.

[Griffin]

What's it called?

[David]

Aloha, Bobby and Rose.

[Griffin]

Don't know the title.

[David]

Yeah, I just know that title because it's kind of a famous title. Weird sounding title, but I don't think it's like a well liked movie.

[Griffin]

Sure.

[David]

Number five at the box office is a classic. Like Quentin Tarantino movie. Like a crazy sort of exploitation film that people forgot about. And he sort of references.

[Griffin]

Is it Rolling Thunder?

[David]

No, that's probably one of the most famous films versions of that.

[Griffin]

Can you give me a. Like a sub genre of exploitation?

[David]

It's like a historical.

[Griffin]

It's not the original Inglorious Bastards. No, it's historical.

[David]

He's referencing it more in Django.

[Griffin]

He's referencing him more in Django. It's not Mandingo.

[David]

It's Mandingo.

[Griffin]

It's Mandingo. Yeah, yeah, I would say he's referencing that film most.

[David]

Quite a lot.

[Griffin]

Django Unchained.

[David]

Quite a lot.

[Griffin]

If I'm thinking across his filmography, you.

[David]

Weren'T going to get it otherwise, I mean.

[Griffin]

No, no, no, David, I wasn't critiquing the hint.

[David]

No other movies. You've got the Tony Curtis movie Lepke, which I've never seen, where he plays this famous Jewish American gangster, sort of a forgotten movie directed by Menahem Golan, the film producer.

[Griffin]

Oh, weird.

[David]

Never seen it. Yeah, you've got Woody Allen's Love and Death, which is one of his early funny ones. If you Guys have ever heard that phrase before?

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

You've got torso. What is that?

[Griffin]

Huh?

[David]

What is that?

[Ben]

It's the top part of your body.

[David]

Okay. It looks like an Italian Jalo movie.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah. Sort of like top part. Sort of like waist to chest.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

You've got to tor. Torso is an early G. That's like a slasher movie.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

You've got the Wind and the Lion. What is that John Milus movie like? Oh, yeah, like. Yes, I Sean Connery movie. I've never seen that.

[Tim Simons]

That's the prequel to the. That Killian Murphy movie.

[David]

We all had a version.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And then you have. Jesus. I was also going to do the Line, the Witch of the Wardrobe. And then number 10 is a movie called the Groove Tube, which is like a low budget comedy with Chevy Chase.

[Griffin]

Absolutely, yeah.

[David]

Never seen that. And Bells. The Bells is in it. Bells are.

[Griffin]

That's his. That's his first movie. Chevy.

[David]

Right. Because this is.

[Griffin]

I think It's a pre SNL movie type of thing. SNL. SNL 74 or 1975.

[David]

Yeah, right, of course, SNL 75. Right.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

But yeah, like, I mean, a fun mix of stuff. Not exactly a bunch of masterpieces, I will say.

[Griffin]

No.

[David]

Jaw is kind of bursting into, I guess a sleepier time of year. And this is sort of inventing the summer movie too.

[Griffin]

Yeah. Now.

[David]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

What does it ultimately make? Jaws?

[David]

It's sort of hard. I think it's like 130 in the initial. Initial run. It's had many RE releases and stuff. It's like total now is every year. Right.

[Griffin]

But it holds the record until Star.

[David]

Wars holds the record till Star wars which. And Star wars is beaten by ET and then they kind of trade off for years with RE releases until Jurassic Park.

[Griffin]

Yes, yes.

[David]

And then Titanic.

[Griffin]

Yes. Well, and then Star wars re release sneaks back up there for six months before Titanic knocks it off. Yeah.

[David]

Bit silly.

[Tim Simons]

And now it's currently first Avatar or second Avatar.

[David]

Isn't it now once again, the first Avatar, Avengers Endgame had it for a while, but then Avatar took it back.

[Griffin]

Yes. But domestically it's still Force Awakens.

[David]

Okay, I'm going to pee. I'm going to have to run out of here before you pee. Yes.

[Griffin]

Saturday, May 11, Letterboxd the group chat.

[David]

Tim Simons that Which is the name of my. Our chat with the wonderful Tim.

[Griffin]

There's a separate chat we have with Sean Fancy called News and Deals, which.

[Tim Simons]

I always laugh when you talk about every time we text on that thread. I have had one less sex you said that on the show.

[David]

Very, very good.

[Griffin]

Tim Simons who has a recommendation for a movie that is like National Treasure but isn't National Treasure? David Like a family adventure film? Tim. Yes, kind of grown up so they will feel like grown ups but not insane scary. David Mask of Zorro. David oh Tim, did I tell you my wife is pregnant with twin boys? Tim all caps. What? David yeah dude. Tim Wait, is this true? Oh my God. Congratulations. David sends picture for drawn identical. We don't know. Tim says oh my God, I can't wait to hear twin dad David in the second hour of a three and a half hour podcast about blue chips where Griffin is talking about the Wendy's soda cup tie ins for some movie he hated when he was 11. And David responds, the most devastatingly accurate text I have ever received.

[David]

Griffin that's beautifully done and it beautifully sets up me running out of the studio in five seconds. But I to go pee my man.

[Griffin]

Good luck is what Tim says.

[David]

See that wasn't such a bad reaction though.

[Tim Simons]

No I did.

[David]

Other people have told me like oh yeah, that'll ruin your like life forever.

[Tim Simons]

Yes, I was trying to be gentle.

[Griffin]

Tim anything you want to plug?

[Tim Simons]

I would just I've actually like so short answer is like no. Like I always just like whenever it comes time to plug things I'm always just like I don't know, like follow me on Instagram because I don't do it a lot but I usually put the stuff that's happening getting on there. I kind of don't want to plug anything. But also I have heard it's good to plug a podcast when you are on a podcast. So I do a podcast with Matt Walsh called Second in Command. We were a v rewatch podcast but we have completed that endeavor and now we have moved on to doing movies that only have presidents or vice presidents in them because we enjoy each other's company and even though it is financially largely unsuccessful, we still really enjoy doing it. So you can listen to that which is a podcast.

[Ben]

There's a link in the episode description.

[Tim Simons]

Oh thank you.

[David]

We're all going to be on it.

[Tim Simons]

Yeah, you guys will. You may have by the time this comes out you may have been on it. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

[Griffin]

Yes, we called, we called our shots.

[Ben]

Last the president in Beavis and Butthead do America probably I don't know Bill Clinton.

[Tim Simons]

That is the kind of thing that will fit the.

[Griffin]

Yeah, you should take that your per view.

[Tim Simons]

Yes, it's a broad per.

[Griffin]

Tim, thank you for for being here. You're the best.

[Tim Simons]

You guys are the best. I love you so much.

[Griffin]

So much, Tim. Next week on the show, let's see. Steven Spielberg follows up Jaws, but just kind of like a small kind of one for him. Oh, no, he makes Close Encounters.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, Close Encounters.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And coming up on the Patreon in a few days, we have of course, the second installment in our Jelly miniseries. We have Mickey Blue Eyes.

[Griffin]

That's wild. It's wild to think about a future we'll soon be. And where the that is happening.

[Ben]

That's true.

[Griffin]

Yeah. Stay tuned for that. Thank you again for being here, Tim, and as.

[Tim Simons]

Absolutely. My pleasure.

[Griffin]

I'm getting out of here. I got twins to get back home too.

[Ben]

Is that cuz you have to take two shits?

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Tim Simons]

All right.

[David]

That was good.

[Griffin]

I got to drop off.

[Tim Simons]

I was trying to figure out a.

[David]

Steelbook joke, but that's way better.

[Tim Simons]

Can I just say, David, I like to think about the years that like around New Year's, like January 1st, January 2nd. I. I like to think about the thing that I will miss most about that particular year.

[David]

Okay.

[Tim Simons]

And there was a. Like, there was one year where I saw a play called Wakey Wakey on Broadway. That or no, it was off Broadway that Will Eno wrote. And it was like a very profound experience. And I've heard of it. Yeah. And like, I think it was 2018. And I remember at the end of 2018, I was like, I'm very sad that this year is ending because this will no longer be the year that I saw Wakey Wakey.

[David]

Okay?

[Tim Simons]

And I remember that the end of 2022, I thought to myself, I'm sad that this year is ending because it will no longer be the year that I saw David get so disappointed he had to do ad reads after we had talked about the Shining for three hours. The level.

[David]

We're not doing ad reads today. The level not going to happen.

[Tim Simons]

I. The way you fell, your entire body, entire voice was like, I can't believe I now have to keep talking. And it was like. It was a really beautiful, honest moment.

[David]

I'm just going to say something though. I think Jaws. We will not talk for about Jaws as long. Not because Jaws isn't a big movie movie. Just because it's, you know, it doesn't go as deep as the Shining. Like, that's not an offense to Jaws.

[Griffin]

Ben, you're already recording, right?

[David]

Like, I feel like this is. This is kind of a thing to. To consider. All right, do your job.

[Griffin]

Just keep all of this in at the end of the episode.

[David]

Yeah. Okay.

[Griffin]

Three and a half hours.

[David]

No, no, no, I'm joking.

[Griffin]

But definitely keep all that in at the end, okay.