Jurassic Park with Sean Fennessey

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David: Episode Summary Episode: Jurassic Park with Sean Fennessey
Release Date: April 13, 2025
Hosts: Griffin Newman & David Sims
Guest: Sean Fennessey
Producer: Ben Hosley

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1. Introduction and Context

The episode kicks off with the hosts, Griffin Newman and David Sims, engaging in their trademark humorous banter, playfully critiquing each other's impressions of actors like Jeff Goldblum and Arnold Schwarzenegger. This light-hearted start sets the tone for an in-depth and entertaining exploration of Jurassic Park.

2. Evolution of Wayne Knight's Career

Sean Fennessey joins the conversation, bringing his expertise into the discussion about Wayne Knight's portrayal of Dennis Nedry in Jurassic Park. The hosts reflect on David Sims' longstanding challenges in mimicking Knight's unique voice, with Sean highlighting the difficulty due to Nedry's distinct rasp and inimitable demeanor.

Sean Fennessey [02:14]: "It's one of the most perfectly cast movies of all time."

3. Spielberg's Adaptation of Michael Crichton's Vision

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Michael Crichton's transition from novelist to filmmaker. The hosts delve into how Jurassic Park was adapted from Crichton's work, emphasizing Spielberg's role in pivoting the narrative to focus on the theme park experience rather than solely on scientific exploration. They contrast the book's darker elements, such as Nedry's more sinister motivations and Malcolm's definitive demise, with the film's more restrained storytelling approach.

Griffin Newman [06:02]: "It's like, I want to circle back to."

4. Character Arcs and Dynamics

The trio examines the character development in Jurassic Park, particularly Alan Grant's journey from a man who claims he could never have children to someone who learns to connect and protect Hammond's grandchildren. Sean points out that this emotional spine provides depth to the film, contrasting with characters like Nedry, whose brief but pivotal role underscores themes of greed and corruption.

David Sims [06:42]: "Alan Grant's journey of learning to tolerate children."

5. Special Effects: A Blend of Practical and CGI Mastery

The episode offers an insightful analysis of the groundbreaking special effects in Jurassic Park. The collaboration between Stan Winston's animatronics and Phil Tippett's CGI innovations is lauded as a perfect melding of craftsmanship and technological advancement. They discuss how this synergy set a new standard for visual effects in cinema, making the dinosaurs lifelike and awe-inspiring.

David Sims [16:28]: "It's the melding of crafts that you have Winston at the top of his game, Tippett at the top of his game, and ILM starting to push through something new."

6. Themes of Capitalism and Control Over Nature

Griffin and David explore the undercurrents of capitalism within Jurassic Park, interpreting the movie as a critique of unchecked corporate ambition and humanity's desire to control nature. They debate whether Spielberg intended these themes or if they emerged organically from the narrative structure and character interactions.

Griffin Newman [81:58]: "It's a movie about like late capitalism... where you have the money to do this, so why wouldn't we do it?"

7. Impact on Hollywood and the Blockbuster Formula

The discussion shifts to Jurassic Park's profound impact on Hollywood, particularly its role in shaping the blockbuster genre. They compare its influence to other major franchises like Godzilla, asserting that Jurassic Park inspired a wave of high-concept, high-budget films that prioritized spectacle and mass appeal.

David Sims [22:00]: "Jurassic Park is like the blockbuster that people are still trying to chase."

8. Sequels and Franchise Evolution

The hosts critique the sequels to Jurassic Park, contrasting them with the original's brilliance. They argue that while later films like The Lost World: Jurassic Park and Jurassic Park III had their entertaining moments, they lacked the depth and innovative spirit of the first installment. The conversation extends to Jurassic World, discussing how it attempted to modernize the franchise but fell into pitfalls similar to other large sequels.

Sean Fennessey [80:54]: "It's a place where tucking up is like saying goodbye to a golden era."

9. Comparisons with Other Franchises

Drawing parallels with other cinematic giants, the episode compares Jurassic Park to franchises like Star Wars and Indiana Jones. They explore how each series maintained its unique identity while also contributing to the evolution of blockbuster filmmaking.

Sean Fennessey [132:38]: "It's like that's Jaws for me, and then I like Jaws, and now."

10. Iconic Scenes and Performances

A deep dive is made into some of the most memorable scenes and performances in Jurassic Park, such as the T. Rex's attack sequence and Jeff Goldblum's iconic lines. The hosts analyze how these moments contribute to the film's enduring legacy and emotional resonance with audiences.

David Sims [83:06]: "It's like a dragon curve. Because the idea is, it's like they never foresaw X, Y, Z."

11. Cultural Legacy and Rewatchability

The conversation wraps up by acknowledging Jurassic Park's status as a cultural touchstone. They discuss its rewatchability, merchandising success, and lasting appeal across generations, cementing its place in cinematic history.

Sean Fennessey [101:10]: "I'm A big defender of that series in part because of what Griffin is saying."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sean Fennessey [02:14]: "It's one of the most perfectly cast movies of all time."
• Griffin Newman [06:02]: "It's like, I want to circle back to."
• David Sims [16:28]: "It's the melding of crafts that you have Winston at the top of his game, Tippett at the top of his game, and ILM starting to push through something new."
• Griffin Newman [81:58]: "It's a movie about like late capitalism... where you have the money to do this, so why wouldn't we do it?"
• David Sims [22:00]: "Jurassic Park is like the blockbuster that people are still trying to chase."
• Sean Fennessey [101:10]: "I'm A big defender of that series in part because of what Griffin is saying."

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Conclusion

This episode of Blank Check with Griffin & David provides a comprehensive and nuanced examination of Jurassic Park, exploring its creation, thematic depth, technological innovations, and lasting influence on both audiences and the film industry. Through engaging dialogue and expert insights from Sean Fennessey, the hosts underscore the film's monumental place in cinematic history and its role in defining the modern blockbuster.

Listen to the full episode here.

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This summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, focusing on the substantive discussions and key insights shared by the hosts and their guest. Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments have been intentionally excluded to maintain clarity and relevance.

Transcript

[Griffin Newman]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blank check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect. All you need to know is that the name of the shadow is Blackjack.

[David Sims]

Welcome to Podrasa cast.

[Griffin Newman]

Great.

[David Sims]

I had to do it.

[Griffin Newman]

You could have done the Goldblum. That's what you didn't go for. Yeah, you could have done a Goldblum.

[David Sims]

Well, it has been established on the show over the years that my Goldblum is particularly awful.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, interesting.

[David Sims]

I'm trying to remember. This might be on a bad impression. Go on. Goldblum might be second only to Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[Griffin Newman]

You're very bad at Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[Sean Fennessey]

How's your Wayne Knight?

[David Sims]

Let me see. I'm gonna work on it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is Wayne Knight one?

[David Sims]

I'm trying to get. He's got a very particular rasp that's hard to approximate.

[Griffin Newman]

He has. He's inimitable. I mean, which I guess is why Wayne Knight was Wayne Knight for the night.

[David Sims]

I should just say putting a pin in Wayne Knight's ginormous 90s.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, just when it was like, you can't say, get me a Wayne Knight type. It's like, get me Wayne Knight or we're rewriting this character.

[Sean Fennessey]

I would argue Josh Mostel was in the mix there for the Wayne Knight part.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[David Sims]

But fucking. I mean, the degree to which Wayne Knight bigfooted him.

[Sean Fennessey]

He did. He did.

[Griffin Newman]

He edged. Probably has like a voodoo doll night.

[David Sims]

Josh Montel had the Nepo juice. And he had a head start, right? He's in movies starting in the 70s.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, man.

[David Sims]

And he's got an iconic dad. And yet Wayne Knight just said like, come. Come on, give me space.

[Griffin Newman]

I forgot about Josh Mostell, man. And it is.

[David Sims]

We just watched Jesus Christ Superstar.

[Griffin Newman]

That's right.

[David Sims]

She's great in he.

[Griffin Newman]

He sure is. And then you just look. And the 90s, the early 90s in his career. Sandler's using him. He's in City Slickers too. You're like, oh, he's in both City Slickers, obviously. Like, you know, this is great. And then you're seeing in the 90s, you're like, it's kind of tapering off. And then the 2000s, it's like he was in two movies, right? It's. It's. It's over, cuz.

[David Sims]

What happened?

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I don't know. Wayne Knight, I guess, just market corrected him.

[Sean Fennessey]

To use market expression. That's right.

[David Sims]

There's the story. I love that. When they were casting this movie, when they were planning it out. That Spielberg saw Basic Instinct.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And. And the shot of Wayne Knight sweating profusely.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

The interrogation scene in which in response to she uncrosses her legs. He is what she does. You gotta look closely.

[Sean Fennessey]

Then what happens?

[David Sims]

This is why you gotta go 4K on Basic Instinct. Cause the first time I saw it on tv, I went, what is everyone getting so worked up about?

[Griffin Newman]

But he is. When you're looking at all the guys in that scene, he's the one. You're like, who is this fucking guy?

[David Sims]

And the story has always been that Spielberg watched it and went T Rex. Cut to that reaction shot. That's a blockbuster. That he was just like, that's exactly what we need is that guy's response. Which is funny because the movie doesn't even really do that.

[Sean Fennessey]

No.

[David Sims]

His sensation ends up being so different than that.

[Sean Fennessey]

He also the only man truly focused on Wayne Knight in Basic Instinct. I mean, for that to be your.

[Griffin Newman]

Takeaway, Spielberg's like seriously sharing who.

[David Sims]

What vagina. But he. Yes. No, the idea that he saw that one cutaway reaction shot and was like, we can build a blockbuster around that.

[Griffin Newman]

Spielberg magic, baby.

[David Sims]

But that's also fucking Wayne night magic.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, but when we're talking about Jurassic park and we should introduce our Wayne.

[David Sims]

Film, as far as I'm concerned, a Wayne.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's the thing. It's not every single actor in this, when they are on screen, you're like, man, Sam Neil owns this fucking movie. Then like Sam Jackson's on screen, you're like, I forgot that Sam Jackson has never been better than in Jurassic Park.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And then we cut to someone else. And I just feel the same way every single time.

[David Sims]

Not to to crib like a rewatchables terminology, but this is a movie to put through the rewatchables categories.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, I did it once and failed terribly.

[Griffin Newman]

Did you guys do.

[Sean Fennessey]

We did do an episode, but you're.

[David Sims]

Like, are there like 20 Apex Mountains in this movie?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, everyone is perfect, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's one of the most perfectly cast movies of all time. Plus one of the most consequential. Oh yeah, Shoemaker. And Brian Curtis and I did it. And I think we actually forgot to even say the name John Williams in the pod.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Sean Fennessey]

So like, if we were doing it today, it'd be a nine hour episode.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

But there's a lot to go through here.

[David Sims]

There's a lot to go through here.

[Ben Hosley]

This movie's good.

[David Sims]

It is good.

[Griffin Newman]

It's really good.

[David Sims]

It is good. It is funny. That I'm putting this forward as a theory. Okay. 1970, 1980s, 1990s. In each decade, Spielberg makes a movie that basically breaks Hollywood's brains, trying to.

[Griffin Newman]

Replicate the definitive blockbuster. I mean, I guess Star wars is the definitive blockbuster of the 70s, but Jaws, Raiders, Jurassic Park.

[David Sims]

Well, because we were talking about. We did our Dune episode on David Lynn. I should say quickly. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. It's a podcast about filmographies. Directors who had massive success early on in their careers. Say, making Jaws. Sure. As their second or third film. Debating on how you count it. And we're given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. They. Sometimes they hook, baby. Some miniseries on the films of Steven Spielberg, the early years. We're using early pretty liberally.

[Griffin Newman]

Spielberg origins.

[David Sims]

Spielberg origins.

[Sean Fennessey]

How many kids does he have when he makes this movie?

[David Sims]

Great question.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's find out.

[Sean Fennessey]

Two.

[David Sims]

I mean, that's. I feel like the. The most defining aspect of this film relative to the earlier Spielberg blockbusters is this is now a father. Yes, yes, yes. This is.

[Sean Fennessey]

Action is what's most important.

[David Sims]

Dad movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, it is. Especially when you read the book, which I assume you have.

[Sean Fennessey]

I did on a beach on Long island in the 1990s. And I thought hard about returning to it for this, and I just didn't have the time.

[Griffin Newman]

I assume, Griffin, that you have not.

[David Sims]

Correct.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben, did you ever read Michael Crichton's Jurassic Park?

[Sean Fennessey]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

A book that I had to hide under my bed because it was so scary.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember that very profoundly. Like I read the death of Dennis Nadri in that book, which is very violent in the book. Much more violent than it is in the movie.

[David Sims]

He gets killed by Sharon Stones for training.

[Griffin Newman]

Honestly, that is something Michael Crichton would write. We can talk about that in a second.

[David Sims]

We'll talk about that.

[Griffin Newman]

But. And I did the thing like the joke in Friends of Joey putting the Shining in the freezer. Like, I put the book under my bed. I was like, I can't even have the book near me. I was so freaked out. Anyway. What was that? Oh, the kid. Yeah. There's not as much overwhelming, like, ah, these kids, we have to protect them. In the book that I like, sure. The kids are more of an irritation.

[David Sims]

Well. And that's the closest thing this movie has to, like an emotional spine.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Is Alan Grant's journey of learning to tolerate children. Starting the movie as a guy who's Like, I could never have kids. And by the end is like, I get it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

He learns how to tolerate children and use, like, seatbelts correctly and so on and so forth. Right?

[Sean Fennessey]

It's not a very Spielbergian book.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure, there's Spectacle, but aside from that, man, it's a mean book.

[Griffin Newman]

His books are fucking mean.

[Sean Fennessey]

Crichton books are nasty.

[Griffin Newman]

I like Michael Crichton books as, like, fun things to read. But I recently reread Sphere because I'm. I have twin babies, and I'm just reading a lot of books on my phone right now. Not a humble brag.

[David Sims]

Reading books on your phone.

[Griffin Newman]

That part.

[David Sims]

Good eyesight.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a. That's a humble brag.

[David Sims]

You zoom in. And Sphere is one of those books.

[Griffin Newman]

Obviously, that was in a moment of his life where he could fucking write a book called like, I Took a Shit. And his editor would be like, I can't wait to get this on every bookshelf in America.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

But, like, if you. If you submitted Sphere to me, I would just immediately reply back like, do you have a problem with women? What did they do?

[Sean Fennessey]

I think I Took a Shit was the original title of Disclosure, as I recall.

[David Sims]

But talking about it not being a very Spielberg book, which I just have to take your word for here it is one of the infamous parts of this movie of, like, this is, like, the most white hot pitch to hit Hollywood, like, arguably ever.

[Griffin Newman]

He had two children, by the way. You're correct. There you go with Kate Capshaw.

[David Sims]

And they, like, throw it out to all the studios as a jump ball. And every studio goes like, here's our pitch for what we would do with this text and has their own director attached. Warner Brothers makes a play with Tim Burton. Columbia makes a play with Richard Donner. Fox makes a play with Joe Dante and Universal and Steven Spielberg.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm obsessed with this fact.

[Griffin Newman]

Amazing to think about all four books.

[David Sims]

But all of them make sense in that way where you're like, here's the book as this, like, median object. And then you could take it further in any one of these directions.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay, wait. We all love this movie, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And we also agree.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm gonna call Griffin out as not being a Jurassic park super fan.

[David Sims]

It's not totemic for me in the way I think it is for the three of you. It is a mov movie I have certainly, over the years, grown to appreciate more and more and more.

[Griffin Newman]

You were never really a JP Boy in the same way I wasn't a JP Boy.

[David Sims]

I think that's the key distinction. It wasn't one of my movies growing, but we.

[Sean Fennessey]

All of those other three sound better to you?

[Griffin Newman]

No, but. Well, the Dante one is the one that kind of very intriguing.

[David Sims]

But.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's. And I say this with due respect to Joe Dante. That is a. A fun, silly, trashy movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know what he did instead of this movie, was it Matinee, which is.

[David Sims]

One of his best movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

But so different in terms of scope and energy than what JP is.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like the Burton version of this movie does not appeal to me particularly. That's just kind of an interesting. Like. Well, what would that look like?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Donner would have made a slightly worse version of this movie. Probably.

[David Sims]

Donner, I think, probably would have made the more cratenny version. Wouldn't have pulled it further into his own voice. Donner's the most sort of like hired hand. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But he don't grounds things in emotion.

[David Sims]

Craftsman.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly. He's a great studio filmmaker. He does spectacle just fine. It would probably be.

[David Sims]

He would have made the most crime.

[Griffin Newman]

A really fun movie.

[David Sims]

The Dante thing's interesting to me because I do. I have long contended that in particular Jurassic World feels much more like a Dante homage than a Spielberg homage in a lot of ways.

[Griffin Newman]

And.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. And it also is meaner than this movie is. Totally so.

[David Sims]

Which feels like a misread of Joe Dante's anarchic humor.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, yeah. Right.

[David Sims]

The Burton. I mean, like talking about all the sliding doors here. Burton misses out on this, then is like, oh, fuck. But I would like to do a dinosaur thing. Then Warner Brothers gets the rights for Dinosaurs Attack, the Topps trading card series.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And that's how he found bundle deal.

[David Sims]

Mars Attacks. And they were like, let's do both of these. And then after Jurassic comes out, he's like, I shouldn't fuck with dinosaurs. Let me just do Mars Attacks, which I think we all agree is like, better for the culture that Spielberg makes Jurassic and he makes Mars Attacks. It's better that Joe Dante makes matinee and Spielberg makes Jurassic Joe Dante has.

[Griffin Newman]

Made movies about critters run amok.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

So, like, yeah, I just wonder what his. But like, I just would love to see a Joe Dante Jurassic park or a Jurassic Movie.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, what if Joan Joe Dante had made Jurassic Park 3? You know what I mean?

[David Sims]

Well, that.

[Griffin Newman]

Where it's like, hey, you know, can you just play in the sandbox and make a. A silly fun movie that's like, not too. We don't have to worry too much about like, getting this book right. Yeah, because like Jurassic Park 3, which is a movie we both like.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that. It's just, hey, Joe Johnson, you're good with creatures. You can do some action. Keep this movie fun and light and, you know, Blockbuster.

[David Sims]

But Dante would have wanted to dig into the corporate element. He never would have made. Why am I fucking. What's Edinburgh's character's name?

[Griffin Newman]

What's whose character's name?

[David Sims]

Richard Attenborough's character.

[Sean Fennessey]

John Hammond.

[David Sims]

Thank you. He never would have made John Hammond cuddly. Well, he would have made him funny.

[Griffin Newman]

John Hammond is a mean fucker in the book. He dies in the book. Spoiler alert for the book. Being eaten by compies who are not in this movie, but they're in the sequel.

[David Sims]

They're saving their stomach to eat. Peter Sturmare in the second film, but.

[Griffin Newman]

As he's dying, he's thinking, like, fucking kids fucked all this up. Like, he's mad about, like, the stupid kids that he brought to Jurassic Park.

[David Sims]

I think all the clamp shit in Gremlins 2 is, in a way, a vision of what he probably would have done with Jurassic, which I don't.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's still ultimately, like, when you look at the obvious inspiration for that character in Gremlins 2, Donald Trump, like, it's ultimately pretty benign, you know? Well, I said it. I said it. I said his name out loud on this podcast.

[David Sims]

This is the key difference between, without calling out names, the director of Jurassic world and Gremlins 2, where you're, like, the satire in Gremlins 2 feels pointed without feeling, like, nasty.

[Sean Fennessey]

The thing is, is I would argue that Jurassic park is probably the hardest corporate satire slash, finger pointing that Steven Spielberg's ever done.

[David Sims]

I agree.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it's right on the precipice of him becoming a genuine Hollywood corporate titan. Yeah, 100% fascinating that he would. I mean, he is John Hammond in this movie, is he not?

[David Sims]

Let's call it another thing at this point in time. I've said some variation of the stat many times on this podcast, but he signs a deal when Universal decides to transition from backlot tour to, like, full theme park, which obviously escalates with Jurassic, but when it's founded, it's like, ET Ride Jaws ride. Like, we're building this on the back of the Spielberg library. His deal is he gets. It's like, 10% of all revenue every year in perpetuity, and they can't break the contract. So by the time he's making this movie and Universal's making The play for it. Part of it is like. And then we can fucking put this in the parks.

[Sean Fennessey]

Does he still own a piece of that?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

So he's getting that Halloween Horror Nights money.

[David Sims]

Correct.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm about to be there in, like.

[David Sims]

Every park, every country. Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like we. So okay, so here we are on this podcast. We obviously, as we, I'm sure, discussed before.

[David Sims]

Our guest today is Sean Fantasy.

[Griffin Newman]

Hi.

[David Sims]

The Big Picture.

[Griffin Newman]

The King King. Sean King.

[David Sims]

Sean.

[Sean Fennessey]

I've changed my name to John Hammond. You have a little.

[David Sims]

Sean Hammond.

[Griffin Newman]

We've talked about Steven Spielberg on this podcast before his later part of his career when he is a CEO and then when he's sort of an emeritus exec who still, like, gets that sweet, sweet Transformers money, but is mostly just like, I've always wanted to make a musical and I've always wanted to remake, you know, this.

[David Sims]

There have been a couple of these now with like, you know, it has happened only because of, like, big figures, entertainment also getting into product lines where you have your, like, Rihannas with the fenty and the fucking generous with makeup lines or whatever. He, for a long time was one of the only, like, entertainment professionals who was also a billionaire. And it was because of all these deals that he's making money off anything connected to Men in Black, Transformers, things he didn't even direct, not to mention his own properties, not to mention Universal Studios deals like all this, he leveraged.

[Sean Fennessey]

Something that very few filmmakers ever did, which is that everyone wanted him to make their movie. And so he would grab a piece of it, even if he had no intention of making it, so that he could produce it forever. Which, you know, maybe only five people in the history of movies would be able to do that in the first place. But he did it at the highest level of capitalism.

[David Sims]

I would also argue that for a long time, for several decades, his name above a title as Steven Spielberg Presents.

[Griffin Newman]

Even if no one was Steven Spielberg is associated with this movie in the Vegas way, people are like, oh, well, then must be pretty good.

[David Sims]

People weren't even being tricked in a, like, Tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas way. They were just like, he's co signed this. That's good enough for us.

[Sean Fennessey]

We were raised on that. Is he the first director's name you knew?

[David Sims]

Probably.

[Griffin Newman]

I think, without a question. Right.

[David Sims]

Was the shorthand guy is the guy you make jokes about. You have to pull a name of a director that anyone knows. But Also in the 90s, half of the shows on Saturday morning television, the cartoons are Steven Spielberg Presents Right, Yeah. Animaniacs, Tiny toons.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, right.

[David Sims]

Like he had like 10 totally crazy. There's deeper. I could get into Tunesylvania and Prehistoria, but that's. We don't. That's a whole other episode.

[Griffin Newman]

So Jurassic park, just Rear Point. Yes, I do. This is, in a way, I'm looking at his later filmography. The most sort of nakedly spiteful about like capitalism and the sort of future of business.

[Sean Fennessey]

He never really does that, I think.

[Griffin Newman]

I think, yeah. Does that a lot.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I think that these two movies are capstones.

[Griffin Newman]

And I think Ready Player One. He is more like him at the other side of it. Feeling a little jaded.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

About what he half begotten, you know, and Right.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

The Mark Rylands character being like, I just wanted to entertain people. I'm really sleepy. David, can you go outside? Sometimes I can't do his voice, you.

[David Sims]

Know, he doesn't say it that clearly. Even if you don't have an impression. Kind of some felon Go outside maybe like, are you ready Player One?

[Griffin Newman]

People criticize Ready Player One for like, oh, God. They like, how dare this movie, like invade the Shining and turn it into a video game level. And I'm like, I think Steven Spielberg is aware of what that's doing. Some people might disagree with me.

[David Sims]

I was going to say the characterization of like, you know, capitalist culture. I feel like this movie is inflating what he starts with Jaws, but Jaws is so micro. A town, a mayor. You know, it's not like a full, multi layered corporation. It's not this idea of like spiting God.

[Sean Fennessey]

Money is a big concern, but in that movie it's more about preserving what already exists. And this is about growth, expansion, reimagining what our. Our life is and what the lifestyle of entertainment can be. So like, they are definitely in conversation with each other. But this movie, even though Richard Attenborough is so warm and grandfatherly.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Everyone in the movie is like, what the fuck is your problem, dude?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

What are you doing here? This is a horrible idea. Except for of course the blood sucking lawyer.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

You know who even look rewatching this, it's like that character is far less two dimensional than I remember him being.

[Sean Fennessey]

Arrow. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Every time I'm watching it, I'm like, oh, he's like a real person. The last couple of moments are him being shitty to the kids, which gives you just enough leeway to want to see him be eaten.

[Griffin Newman]

You're right. It's sort of a bit of a permission Structure for it to be okay that he dies. And Ariana Richards saying he left us is quite. It really cuts, you know, to the bone a little bit. Like her shrieking that you're like, Jesus. Like, even though you're also like, there's a fucking T. Rex. Like, what's he supposed to.

[David Sims]

But like, compare that to the.

[Griffin Newman]

The way Alan helps and all that.

[David Sims]

Really? I was also gonna say, like, Bridezilla personal assistant in Jurassic World, where you're like, generous, like a person. He's a human being.

[Griffin Newman]

Running away is a human reaction. That is somewhat understandable.

[David Sims]

Here was my contention I set up and have failed to resolve within the first 20 minutes of this episode. No, no, it's my fault. Please, I can't finish a thought. We did Dune on our David Lynch.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Griffin Newman]

That was a while ago.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Excellent episode. John Hodgman. Yeah, he really brought the heat. I love this show. I told you guys that.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, my favorite show.

[David Sims]

Big Picture is my favorite show. David, what's your favorite show?

[Sean Fennessey]

Who are you guys?

[David Sims]

Producer Ben. Sleep Time podcast. Shapiro.

[Griffin Newman]

It's. I'm sorry, it's a. Talk to us. I'm all in on talk.

[Sean Fennessey]

Talk to it. We. We actually. We are pre recording this podcast and we prerecorded a podcast because my podcast partner had a child.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And we're on the exact opposite end of that. This is our first episode we've recorded.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're coming back? Yeah, we're.

[David Sims]

We're off.

[Sean Fennessey]

Or you know, we're off together. But we recorded a pod a few months ago that has like, like an extended hawk tour riff.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Like literally 40 minutes on Hawk Tua and it's not coming out until December.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're like white knuckling, like, is she. Will she remain.

[David Sims]

I think it's going to stay.

[Sean Fennessey]

The vice president, you know, I think it's going to stay happen here with Hawk.

[David Sims]

Have you guys seen the photos that spirit Halloween and this will be many, many months old by the time it's come out. Spirit Halloween has a hawk to an end cap.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay?

[David Sims]

It's not just that there's a hawk to a costume. There are like 10 different products.

[Sean Fennessey]

Are you serious?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jesus. What is the costume?

[David Sims]

It is. Are you ready? It is like, yeah, it is like an auto mechanics jumpsuit and it's Hawk to a auto lubrication. Spit on that thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

What?

[David Sims]

As like a logo. But then they also have like, shirts and like party.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, that was like a MEM meeting where they were like, we have one day to get this to store, like, we don't have a lot of time.

[David Sims]

Because what's the costume?

[Griffin Newman]

Just has to have costume.

[David Sims]

Can't be her because she's kind of dressed generically. We have to create someone who exists in the Hawk to a universe.

[Ben Hosley]

That was figured out over lunch. Yeah, that was a quick little short meet.

[David Sims]

That was figured out over like the water cooler.

[Griffin Newman]

Anyway, I assume we now work for her, like by April. Like, she owns us.

[David Sims]

This is a talk to a production.

[Griffin Newman]

How did we get to Hawk? To him. Oh, Dune.

[Sean Fennessey]

You were talking about Dune.

[David Sims]

Dune.

[Griffin Newman]

Jesus, finish that thought, please.

[David Sims]

Yes. So I was like, that movie comes out the year after Return of the Jedi. And we were talking about how in the wake of Star wars, there are very few attempts to make another Star Wars. They kind of don't start until later in the 80s. You have things like Zardoz and Krull and whatever. But people felt so intimidated by, like, how do you build an entire universe like this? That even though Star wars is obviously the most seismic film of that decade, like Jaws is the first kind of classical blockbuster release, it sets the model and the marketing. And I do think that's the movie studios are trying to rip off more because it feels more attainable. Oh, get three good actors. You have one looming threat. You know, not just the shitty Jaws sequels, but all the things like ORCA and whatever. I just think that becomes more even. Like the airplane movies are kind of trying to do something closer to Jaws, I would contend. And then like Raiders is absolutely something everyone's ripping off, even though ET Is the bigger hit.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But also Raiders, I feel like, is them being like. I assume if you're an executive at rival studio, you're like, what the fuck? That's what people wanted totally. They wanted like a rip roaring 30s, like sand adventure. Like, I didn't see this coming. I was making a space laser play or whatever.

[David Sims]

But also that, that the breakthrough. There is that thing Spielberg says of like, what if you made a movie that was only the good parts. Right. Like the start of the like theme park cinema kind of thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. My big contention about this movie that we're talking about is that it is. It is the end of something and the beginning of something. And the thing that it is the beginning of is still not over.

[David Sims]

I agree with that.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I don't know when it's going to end.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

And maybe it will not end.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

But whatever Jaws started, which is I think you described very well, which is sort of like this collection of actors, this sort of high concept, often like Creature or fear Forward, putting you through the eyes of a young child. You know, Spielberg invents a kind of American cinema. This movie is like the absolute apotheosis of blockbusterizing movies. And then because of digital created characters and figures we're in like this. We're mired in the schmear. Like, everything has just been a schmear in movies ever since this movie.

[David Sims]

I think it's fascinating that everyone else would try to chase him, and then every 10 years he'd come back and be like, I've come up with a new evolution of the thing. And you watch the response at the time, and the things are becoming bigger and bigger hits, but critics are like, is he simplifying? Is he becoming. Becoming more and more childlike, is becoming more populist? We missed the, like, fucking Robert Shaw speech from Jaws. Where did the subtlety go? And then, like, this very year, he bifurcates, right? It's this and Schindler. You're like, fucking Jaws gets a best picture nomination. Raiders gets a best picture nomination. They don't have to nominate Jurassic because they're like, oh, he is split off into serious Spielberg and entertainer Spielberg. And as we covered in our later Spielberg series that was done eight years ago, he, like, has this weird split where anytime he tries to make a movie like this again, it kind of doesn't work. And his big tent poly movies tend to be. The successful ones are the, like, Minority Report, War of the World's, like, darker, haunted. Like, he can't go back to just pure joy like this without it feeling a little, I don't know, like he's trying to chase his.

[Sean Fennessey]

Why do you think that is?

[Griffin Newman]

Why do I think that he just, like, not sours exactly, but curdles a little bit? Maybe because he did it better than anyone. And how could you possibly follow. But then again, he did follow it up with the Lost World, Jurassic Park. And I feel like that's where he's like, you know what? Why am I trying to fucking do a better movie than Jurassic Park? Or whatever? Like, why am I trying to do that again? Like, what was I thinking?

[David Sims]

But that's the key difference. That's what this is the end of is like, Spielberg is not really interested in chasing his own shadow in playing this game anymore. And then yet we are 30 years past. Everyone's still trying to figure out how to make Jurassic park again, both literally and, like, generally, if you think about his career.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Yes, you're right. This is the apex.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Once again, he's created the decade defining blockbuster. But then he also, he finally looked inside. He gave us a personal serious film that's also sweeping and epic. It's not the Color Purple or Empire of the sun where it's like, why are you trying to make a serious cigar, Right?

[David Sims]

It was the first time where everyone.

[Griffin Newman]

Reverse engineer a serious Oscar winner, right? He gets his Oscar and then it's like, okay, buddy, what do you want to do? He follows it up with like, I'll do that again. Lost World in Amstad.

[David Sims]

He takes four years off and then just does the same.

[Griffin Newman]

You were doing the same thing. Everyone's like, not that. And he's like, you're right, not that.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm gonna do shit that's interesting to me. It does feel like basically after this, after that, after Lost World, Amistad, he's like, yeah, I'll just, you know, I'll follow the things that are interesting to me.

[David Sims]

Exactly. Which is the end of the thing. But then the start of the thing is everyone else trying to make this right.

[Sean Fennessey]

But there's, I think there's a critical thing that happens between Jurassic park and the Lost World, which is, you know, he co creates DreamWorks and launches the studio. He doesn't make the lost world for DreamWorks. It's still a Universal movie, of course, but I think he's making another straight ahead blockbuster because he's like, I still gotta be Steven Spielberg, four year gap and then I still gotta hold onto this thing that is my iconography, my name above the title, like you were saying. And I don't know, I've not been. I've never been a big Lost World person. I really don't think it's very good.

[David Sims]

We always say the same thing about it, which is it is one of the best directed bad movies of all time.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. There's amazing set pieces in it. I kind of love the cast of it. I don't even hate the premise. I don't love the third act, but I don't hate the Something has survived the sort of Wild side Island that's not a park. Like, that's cool. Good.

[Sean Fennessey]

Arlis Howard, enjoy his work in that.

[Griffin Newman]

Great.

[David Sims]

Arlis Howard, the postlethwaite in that film.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, absolutely.

[David Sims]

Fine. Cut.

[Griffin Newman]

We, but we talked about that movie.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And like it's funny because Dimple of Doom is also him being like, well, I, of course I can do a sequel. This thing is made for a sequel. And then everyone's like, we don't like this.

[David Sims]

Right. The thing I would argue he doesn't. He either doesn't do it again or gives up trying to do is the Last Crusade, which is like, guys, I'm sorry. Let me just give you a Spielberg right down the middle, home run kind of thing. And, like, from this point on, he. He either is like, sort of. I don't know. He's not interested in repeating himself.

[Griffin Newman]

Not too interested. And it feels like when he does. Not that Amistad is like him repeating himself exactly, but it's a little bit him trying to make another Tony historical epic. He stepped outside of his comfort zone. Again. It doesn't work in the same way.

[David Sims]

But BFG feels like the clearest example to me of, like, that's him making a movie that he's like, spielberg should make this. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And Crystal Skull.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And I defend Crystal Skull in some ways.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But obviously, I think he's probably dissatisfied with Crystal Skull.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And he feels like they want. Lucas and Ford wanted me to do that. I fucking did it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And there you have it. That's what I wanted to make. And it didn't really, like, go over.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And so when they're like, can we do another one? He's like, absolutely not. Like, I'm not. I'm done. Like. And that's him finally making that decision. Warhorse is the other one. That kind of feels like they were like, how can you not make this movie, Stevie, come on.

[David Sims]

But then he's.

[Griffin Newman]

But that movie's good.

[David Sims]

Yeah, Good. He's also.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you like Warhorse?

[Sean Fennessey]

I do not.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. It's not his best.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

Some people get really mad at us for that episode where we mostly just dunk on how everyone wants to.

[David Sims]

The horse we weren't dunking on, we were celebrating. We're very.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a hot horse.

[David Sims]

It's sex positive. It's a hot horse. Everyone wants to. That horse. I just. I look at this movie and I'm like, this still feels like the text everyone is studying when they're trying to construct their blockbusters.

[Sean Fennessey]

But nothing feels like this movie.

[David Sims]

No, I don't.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I don't think.

[David Sims]

Feels like this is my wildest take. And I don't know if you guys are immediately going to push back on this or you're going to get where I'm coming from. I. I watch this movie now, and I'm sort of astonished by how quaint it feels in certain ways. Whereas at that time, this movie felt like as big as a movie could possibly be. And now our movies have gotten so overly Complicated that when you're like, this movie has like 10 speaking roles. Like, it has ensemble cast, but there are no, like, unnecessary characters.

[Griffin Newman]

It's. You're absolutely right. It's such a strange movie in that sense that it is epic.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And yet it's mostly set in like a couple of buildings, like sort of tucked away on this island. The modern version in an empty, unopened, not ready yet theme park with a skeleton staff. Right.

[David Sims]

It looks expensive. It still looks great. But I'm just like, there is a focus to this that is the Spielberg problem solving clarity. Like the thing that he is best at is knowing exactly what the audience needs to focus on at any moment and cutting all the gristle and fat away from it to just like simplify the storytelling. In any modern version of this movie. And I'm not just talking about a modern Jurassic movie, but any movie like this today, Samuel Jackson's dialogue is spread across 10 characters. Right, right. And there is a clarity to. The reason why we love Sam Jack in this movie and he makes such an impression is cause it's one guy. And that one guy is given the space to actually have like a personality and a feeling of like, what this means to him emotionally versus, like, you know, in the Last Jurassic movie. Like Caleb Heron, who's a very funny comedian, is like guy behind a computer for three lines.

[Griffin Newman]

I forgot about that.

[David Sims]

And he pops up and it's like, oh, this is fun. They cast a funny person in this movie. And then he disappears. And you're like, if you're gonna put him here, here's a distinctive person, give him a lot to do.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's some really funny stuff in the Last Jurassic movie. And you know, on the big picture, I'm, I guess, known for not remembering what happens in any of the Jurassic World films or the chronology.

[Griffin Newman]

Characters have names that we.

[Sean Fennessey]

I do remember in the most recent film because there are so many characters, so many. There's a sequence where all the characters need to get from one station to another station without getting eaten by raptors. And it's like 18 people walking in a line because they've introduced so many people. I would argue that this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

1.

[Sean Fennessey]

I completely agree with everything you said. Just like David.

[David Sims]

And by the way, at that point in the film, that's us dealing with the skeleton crew. Like they've whittled down the cast to only the finalists. Justice Smith has been like, sidelined.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know if this is a good story choice or not, but the fact that so few people work at fucking Jurassic Park. It's like, it's a park full of dinosaurs and eight people work there.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, what is going on here?

[Griffin Newman]

But I think, should we be like, that's bullshit. There would be more people. Or should we be like, no, this is a story about like essentially a startup where they're like, ah, yeah, I don't know, we kind of like, as Malcolm said, kind of backed into like, oh, fuck, we can make dinosaurs be alive.

[David Sims]

But also, the cold open of this movie is like 10 characters, most of whom we don't see again, who like, don't talk.

[Griffin Newman]

The mov does have the excuse of there's a hurricane. Everyone left. Like there are. When one imagines there were, there are more people that have left.

[David Sims]

That's the thing. I do wonder if that was almost a strategic choice on his part to be like, open with showing a full staff focusing on one specific area to imply at normal times there's a little more going on.

[Sean Fennessey]

It does help the movie because it does reduce the number of people you need to remember and who is delivering the information.

[Griffin Newman]

It helps a book too, because in a book, like, really, you don't want to unwieldy a group. Like. But I also think Crichton, in writing this book is like, he's grinding his gears about, like, you can't automate things. Like, you can't just like, you know, create something like this and then just have a guy program a security system. Like, you know, he's got other gears. He wants to grind.

[Sean Fennessey]

Crichton on the right side of the AI debate.

[Griffin Newman]

He is. I mean, Crichton is often on the right side of things, except for like, do women deserve to have a voice in society? And then he is dead wrong. Because the whole thing with Sphere is that the sphere brings your nightmare.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And like, it's like they find this. This weird alien.

[David Sims]

And his worst nightmare was Sharon Stone talking.

[Griffin Newman]

Things start to truly go bad when the lady goes into this opinion. Like, that's when it's like, oh, I'd like to circle back to.

[David Sims]

Please, please.

[Sean Fennessey]

Disclosure. Yes. Yeah, that's a great, powerful woman rapes a man.

[Griffin Newman]

Disclosure is him being like, of right. Dinosaurs, spheres. What's my worst nightmare? A woman in the workplace.

[David Sims]

Science run amok.

[Griffin Newman]

The other thing about Michael Crichton is he's like so tall. My other favorite thing is that his estate. And they probably will sue me for saying this. So maybe we should, you know, just put a little marker on this bent.

[David Sims]

Keep it in double, you know, made.

[Griffin Newman]

Fuss about Noah Wylie's in a new hospital show.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Griffin Newman]

Called, like, the Pit, and it's set in Pittsburgh. And it's like. It's basically just ER2. It's just like, no, Wiley plays ER doctor. Okay? Get used to it. And Michael Crichton's estate is like, Michael Crichton created er, so we get royalties from this, too, because this is clearly just more er. You can call it something else, but it's fucking more er, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

No. Wiley not allowed to play a doctor ever.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And it's like, bitch, you wrote a spec pilot in the 70s that then got turned into a TV show. You don't get to just own hospitals for a.

[David Sims]

Can I play devil's advocate for a second, though? I am pretty certain that was explicitly.

[Griffin Newman]

It was going maybe to be a New York sequel, Right?

[David Sims]

I think it was explicitly, explicitly developed as an ER sequel. And then at some point they went, oh, wait, how much would we have to pay the Kryton estate?

[Griffin Newman]

Well, probably not just the Crichton estate, but it's like, we reached out to Eric, but I'm just saying, like, fucking Gloria Rubin. Hey, you want to come back? And she's like, not for nothing.

[David Sims]

The whole thing was just, Wells and Wiley are back in the medical world. And I think at some point they did make the decision of, like, if we shift this 10 degrees, it's a new thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Does this mean that you can play another intern without the Reitman family getting a bite at that apple? Like, really, what are we talking about here?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Or just think about movie, about draft.

[David Sims]

Rick the Intern afterlife.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, think long and hard what you say. No, I know, because this affects your future payday.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, Sean does a draft on his show every month. Do you think he owes. That's a good point. The right one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jason.

[David Sims]

I think. I think if I went to Montecito Pictures and was like, I want to. I want to develop a Rick the Intern legacy goal. He's now gm.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's running Isla Nublar.

[David Sims]

Right. And then at some point, I, like, went to a different studio and was like, I have a pitch about a former assistant who then becomes a gm.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[David Sims]

But I had started the conversation properly first. That's the thing. I think if it was just like, John Wells and Noah Wiley were like, you know, it'd be fun to just do a show and not have to pay the Creighton estate, then Crichton's lawsuit would be kind of bullshit. I think they were talking with everyone and then sort of went like, you know, What? We actually have abandoned this project and we have an entirely new idea.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's called the Pit.

[David Sims]

It's called the Pit.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sherry Stringfield's still around. What's going on with her?

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, God, I love her so much, Dr. Lewis.

[Sean Fennessey]

She was wonderful. What a great show that was.

[Griffin Newman]

ER is the greatest TV show of all time. Along with the X Files and Gilmore Girls. Those are the. And the Simpsons, obviously. First 10 seasons.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then I guess the Twilight Zone.

[Griffin Newman]

Twilight Zone's a good shout. I was going to say, like, I guess like the Sopranos or Madman.

[David Sims]

You've made the case recently. The Mad Men's the best.

[Griffin Newman]

The Mad Men rewatch much? Really?

[Sean Fennessey]

That actually is my favorite.

[Griffin Newman]

That show really stands up fantastically.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And. But not as good, of course, as my favorite show, the Romanovs. Bring it back.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you finish?

[Griffin Newman]

What if I'm like, outside? No, I did not.

[Sean Fennessey]

I didn't finish outside.

[Griffin Newman]

You watch Amazon being like when Romanov Season 2.

[David Sims]

I really just wish Matt Weiner would stick to movies. It's clearly where his voice plays the best. Are you here? You are here.

[Griffin Newman]

Where is he? Great title.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I have no idea where he is.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, the Romanovs is the last thing he did. And that was six years ago. Seven years ago at this point. Anyway, Jurassic park, it's a film in 1993 that Steven Spielberg directed that was quite successful.

[David Sims]

It was the highest grossing film of all time. For a period.

[Griffin Newman]

It was absolutely the highest grossing film of all time. And was beaten by Titanic.

[David Sims]

Yes. Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

It beat. I think it took the record from E.T.

[David Sims]

That sounds right.

[Griffin Newman]

I think he had been the reigning champ for essentially 10 years.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, I don't think anything beat E.T.

[David Sims]

Well, you're forgetting I do believe in 97.

[Griffin Newman]

Star wars jumps back, release and bump itself back up.

[David Sims]

Star wars has six months of being number one again before Titanic is the iceberg to that film's dreams.

[Griffin Newman]

And yeah, Jurassic park and Sean likes it and he selected it. When we said we're doing Steven Spielberg, kind of a risky choice.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was I the first claim?

[Griffin Newman]

I think you might have.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did I get a first shot?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, probably.

[David Sims]

My memory of your text was 50% of my personality is liking Jurassic Park.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, well, I mean, it is kind.

[David Sims]

Of have to do it well.

[Sean Fennessey]

And we were talking about lynch. The other 50% might be liking David Lynch. So I was forced to choose. But honestly, I, I, I take full responsibility for my bad Jurassic park podcast, however many years ago that was, you chose why? So I'm, I'm happy to Hear with you.

[David Sims]

How. How old were you when this movie came out?

[Sean Fennessey]

I was 11 years old, kind of.

[David Sims]

In the exact sweet spot.

[Sean Fennessey]

It changed my life.

[Griffin Newman]

You were in the exact sweet spot?

[David Sims]

Yeah. I actually don't know if there's a better age.

[Sean Fennessey]

And I read the book before the movie and did the thing where I was like, whoa, this is not like the book at all. Probably the first like adult book that I ever read.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it was such a sensation. I mean, it's extraordinary. Like that book was in every store. It was in like sneaker stores, you know, like you could buy it everywhere. And still the movie just took my breath away.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But I'm, I'm with you. Yes. It was that. One of those early things where I was like. I can tell you what's different about the book. Like, you know, like. Oh, in fact. Right. Hammond is kind of a jerk in the book and Malcolm dies in the book and all of that.

[David Sims]

But it's one of those things. Am I wrong about this? I mean, we have the dossier right here. But the movie was so fast tracked off of the idea that they're making the movie at the time that the book is being published. Basically.

[Griffin Newman]

Possibly. I think they're adapting it.

[David Sims]

Manuscript.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, certainly. Right. The. The rights were done and dusted before the book came out. Ben, did you see this film in theaters?

[Ben Hosley]

I did.

[Sean Fennessey]

You did?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

How did it, how did it feel?

[Ben Hosley]

I remember just being like dinosaurs.

[Griffin Newman]

They're.

[Ben Hosley]

They're. They're alive. I can see them.

[Sean Fennessey]

It was mind blowing.

[Ben Hosley]

It was really. Cuz I, as a kid and I assumed like this is like very much a boy's thing, but like growing up I was obsessed with dinosaurs.

[Griffin Newman]

My daughter is obsessed with dinosaur.

[David Sims]

So it's not just a boy thing.

[Ben Hosley]

Okay. Sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

Dinosaurs are very, very cool when you're a kid.

[David Sims]

And in fact it's a kid thing in general is particularly obsessed with one dinosaur. I don't know if you've heard about this. The Good Dinosaur.

[Griffin Newman]

She was briefly very obsessed with the Good Dinosaur.

[Sean Fennessey]

I've noticed you an increased number of logs of that film on letterbox.

[David Sims]

Well, David's just working on his book picture.

[Sean Fennessey]

We should do a 33 and a third style, you know, monograph.

[David Sims]

It's called the Best Dinosaur.

[Sean Fennessey]

Good Dinosaurs and Better Dinosaurs.

[Griffin Newman]

That movie is such a baffling series of artistic choices.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I. Can I just say one. One of the big things I really want to talk to you guys about is how. How this is actually the only good movie about dinosaurs and which is just Remarkable. Because of what Ben just said. I think every kid loves dinosaurs.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is the. Maybe you like the Lost World.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

People will Defend Jurassic Park 3.

[Griffin Newman]

Obviously.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Jurassic World movies are huge. Let's just set aside the franchise for a second.

[Griffin Newman]

Set aside the franchise.

[Sean Fennessey]

This represents.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm gonna all. You know, I've got a list up. I'm just gonna yell some. Some titles at you. 65 recently.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not where it was like.

[Griffin Newman]

It was like, Adam Driver goes back in time and he shoots dinosaurs. I was like, this is gonna be good. Right? That movie is unfortunately a dud somehow.

[David Sims]

Not even a 65 out of 100.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I add one caveat before you continue to go through it?

[Griffin Newman]

David, please.

[Sean Fennessey]

Godzilla is not a dinosaur.

[David Sims]

No, of course not.

[Griffin Newman]

Just putting that. No, no, no, no, no. Godzilla does not count.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

The Flintstones, now, you know the Flintstones. They use dinosaurs.

[David Sims]

Well, he was very good in it.

[Sean Fennessey]

If someone said, give me the list of the 10 best dinosaur movies. How many movies would you need to name before you got to the Flintstones ones?

[Griffin Newman]

Three. I'm struggling here. I'm on J. Journey to the center of the Earth. I guess that has dinosaurs in it. I mean, the King Kong movies have tangential dinosaurs. I guess you could call those good. But they're not really about dinosaurs.

[David Sims]

But I do.

[Griffin Newman]

They have dinosaurs.

[David Sims]

I think they make the 10. And dinosaurs aren't top built.

[Sean Fennessey]

I. You could argue that dinosaurs are the most interesting thing in the history of this planet.

[David Sims]

There's a reason we are stick around.

[Sean Fennessey]

Fascinated by dinosaurs.

[Griffin Newman]

The two coolest things. And they are things that kids tend to be obsessed with. Right. Are that. What? Right. Once. One. Dinosaurs once walked the earth. Giant monster lizards were top of the heap. We didn't exist. 2. Bones are huge and we can find their bones.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Two is like there are planets in the sky circling around us. One's red, one is yellow. Or you're just like. Did a kid come up with this idea that there's just like a blue one?

[David Sims]

So much of that is still speculative. Like the planet stuff is still futuristic because we don't have like commercial travel to those planets. The dinosaur thing is so wild when you think about how overwhelming a concept it is. But it's presented to kids as like. And by the way, this is like, done deal. Settled matter.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Millions of years ago. They're not coming close to your front door.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. There's like 1 million years BC right? There's like the sort of old kind of. The original venture. The original Lost World.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Land Of Time for God is another one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Ray Harryhausen styles, you know. But like, are those really, really, are those good movies? Like, they're certainly. They're memorable.

[Griffin Newman]

They're good, they're fun. It's fun to see the dinosaurs. Yeah, that's what they got.

[David Sims]

I also don't think his best films are his dinosaur films.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, no.

[Griffin Newman]

Transformers, when they have dinosaurs in them is pretty good.

[David Sims]

Well, those have dung. No bots in them.

[Griffin Newman]

And I mean one of my favorite.

[David Sims]

Line reading of all Transformers is Stanley Tucci is Merlin.

[Griffin Newman]

No, he's good too. But is. Is when the dinosaur. When the fucking thing turns into a dinosaur the first time.

[David Sims]

You mean when Grimlock turns from robot mode into beast mode?

[Griffin Newman]

No idea what you're talking about. And Ken Watanabe, who is of course voicing a samurai Transformer, which we forget about.

[David Sims]

Swift. What's his name?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know.

[David Sims]

I think it's Swift. I think it's Autobots.

[Griffin Newman]

Says, I was expecting a giant car. That lion always gets.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's good.

[Griffin Newman]

It's so funny.

[David Sims]

You know, who's a good guy?

[Griffin Newman]

It's such a weird moment of self awareness where I'm like, the fucking samurai bot is like, don't we turn into cars?

[David Sims]

So close to his name. It's not Swift, but it's like that Drift. Autobot Drift. Maybe.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't. No.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you see Transformers 1?

[David Sims]

I haven't yet. I've been away.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have no idea.

[David Sims]

You liked it?

[Sean Fennessey]

I did like it, yeah.

[David Sims]

Autobot Helena's not in it. Right. That's.

[Griffin Newman]

My character is named Drift. I have also not seen it, but I do like Josh Cooley who made Toy Story 4.

[Sean Fennessey]

I thought he did a nice job with it. I really liked it. And it has one of the great like third act like, like it's all happening moments in recent movie history.

[Griffin Newman]

Is the second best dinosaur movie. The Land Before Time, the Don Bluth.

[Sean Fennessey]

Film that that was going to be my take.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that probably like the second most iconic dinosaur.

[David Sims]

Here's what is really damning. Disney's dinosaur is a mortal lock for the top 10. And that movie is boring as hell.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? Both that's. And that's. I think what Sean is talking about. It's like there have been two bites at the giant CGI dinosaur movie Apple. Both times you're like, well, that's a good idea.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This is perfect. Because dinosaur is so hard to accomplish this. Do it animated. Both movies stink.

[Sean Fennessey]

But isn't that just even more of a testimony to the amazing power Of Jurassic Park. They were like, we don't even. We can't do anything.

[David Sims]

So I won't harp on this because we covered it in our Lost World episode years and years ago. But I think the reason this movie is not as like a totemic informative for me as it is for many in my generation, the generation before and after, is my parents are super overprotective. Did not let me see this movie for years. I saw Lost World in theaters as my first direction Jurassic. And that blew my mind.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

And I think that movie having the impact of like, holy shit, I am seeing dinosaurs on screen.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. You were like eight when that movie came out, probably.

[David Sims]

Right. It took that juice where I have that memory of seeing that and feeling like it was one of my first, like kind of scary blockbusters I was allowed to see. And I had that, holy shit, it's on a big screen. Where then later came around to this. Yeah. And then I clearly was like, well, this is bad. But I didn't have that sort of key emotional discovery.

[Sean Fennessey]

It makes sense. This is like Jurassic park by comparison to the Lost World is just. Is weirdly restrained and small. Which it didn't feel that way when we were kids. But when you watch it now, like you were saying before, like, not only are there few characters, but you're on an island. You don't even really fully understand the geography of where you are. Sometimes we go to a new place and we're like, what building is this? And how far away was it? And, oh, they're reunited. You know, like the mapping of the movie is actually a little bit confusing at times. But it all works out in the end.

[David Sims]

I mean, there are a lot of Spielberg cheats in this, which he like openly talks about where it's like spatially things change to benefit him in a sequence. If he needs them to be, he will go against how things were previously established. But it's insane how quickly they get out of this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It is. The premise of this movie is so massive. And it's interesting because that fundamentally it's a movie about like, they take one ride on the ride, it goes really wrong. They leave with two deaths.

[David Sims]

And the ride is a backlog tour. It's a slow trek. It's a Six Flags Great safari.

[Griffin Newman]

Three people die in this movie. Right. Wayne Knight, Samuel L. Jackson and Bob Peck.

[David Sims]

Ray Arnold.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, and Gennaro too.

[David Sims]

Gennaro?

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, the lawyer. Okay, so there's four deaths. The book has a couple more extra ones that they cut in this plus.

[Sean Fennessey]

That guy who gets eaten at the beginning of the movie. Movie, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, I mean, whoever that is, salute to him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thank you for your work.

[Griffin Newman]

Raptor. Got him. But like this isn't even a total like sort of slasher film of like only fucking Alan and the kids make it off or whatever. You know, it's like most of them leave being like that. Actually we shouldn't, we shouldn't do that. Like, you know, like a lesson learned. Like, geez, that sucked.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And none of the main characters died and.

[David Sims]

No, I mean famously. Ian Malcolm was supposed to die. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

He dies. The book.

[David Sims]

Right. And. And was supposed to die in the script.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Was originally in production. The plan was to have him die at the moment he gets trapped underneath some bamboo.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And while filming they were like, we're going to kick this guy out of the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Crazy.

[David Sims]

Hello Fresh. You get it? Like hello nurse from the Animaniacs.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh yeah.

[David Sims]

That's sort of the riff I was doing there. Anyway, this episode sponsored by our friends at hello Fresh. With Hellofresh you get farm fresh pre portioned ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep. You skip trips to the grocery store and count on Hellofresh to make home cooking easy, fun and affordable. That's why it's America's number one meal kit. You know how easy it is. I can do it.

[Griffin Newman]

Famously.

[Ben Hosley]

Not the biggest chef, I would say.

[David Sims]

I'm not a master chef chef. And yet with Hellofresh's new ready made meals, you go straight from the fridge to your fork in just three minutes. It's the same high quality ingredients and restaurant worthy flavor that you expect from HelloFresh, just with none of the work. I like that.

[Griffin Newman]

Love that.

[David Sims]

And hey, if you want a little more work than that, HelloFresh's prep and bake meals come together with minimal mess and only five minutes of prep. So your oven does most of the work, not you. That sounds like an ideal arrangement.

[Ben Hosley]

You know, you left out one other quotable.

[David Sims]

What's that?

[Sean Fennessey]

Hello fresh.

[David Sims]

That's Mrs. Doubtfire.

[Griffin Newman]

Hey.

[David Sims]

And Green Chef is now owned by HelloFresh. So with a wider array of meal plans to choose from, there's something for everyone. I personally love switching between the brands because I'm verse. And now my listeners can enjoy both brands at a discount. With us you can get up to.

[Griffin Newman]

10 free meals and a free high protein item for [e-mail]. check 10 FM. That's Check 10 FM. One item per box with active subscription free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to HelloFresh.com. check 10 FM. It's HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit. Okay, let me. I'm opening the dossier. Okay. Michael Crichton. He was a doctor, became a novelist. He's very tall. Rodeo.

[David Sims]

He was short. He became tall.

[Griffin Newman]

Didn't think women should talk too much. Okay. Wrote lots of books. 1980, he writes Congo, but and sort of stops writing books for a bit and more Turns to film.

[Sean Fennessey]

Will. Will ride for the film for the rest of my life. I insist. Congo is good.

[Griffin Newman]

Congo is fun.

[Sean Fennessey]

I have seen it so many times and I know that it is wildly considered a huge. It's considered a huge misfire. I love it.

[David Sims]

It is my friend. 1. One of my best friends. Alex Perlin. Shout out to Alex Perlin, who I know listens to the podcast, is a lawyer, is a public defender. Congo is his favorite movie of all time.

[Griffin Newman]

Probably shouldn't be revealing that he might get disbarred.

[David Sims]

Possibly. His bachelor party was watching Congo.

[Griffin Newman]

Where.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's awesome.

[David Sims]

We went to Ample Hills. We had their ice cream making class, and then we went back to his apartment and watched Congo on vhs.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a very wholesome bachelor party.

[David Sims]

He's a very wholesome man.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I just. I don't want to belabor this, but Congo, directed by Frank Marshall. Written by John Patrick Shanley, who only writes normal movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Obsessed with writing normal movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

Alan Davy.

[Griffin Newman]

You.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Edited by ANV Coates.

[David Sims]

Incredible cat like Laura Linney. Music by J.

[Griffin Newman]

Fantastic. Jerry Gold.

[David Sims]

Delroy Lindo.

[Griffin Newman]

Ernie Hudson is really fun in Congo.

[Sean Fennessey]

Tim Curry, you know, Delroy Lindo.

[David Sims]

Like one of the best one scene performances. Anyway, the point.

[Sean Fennessey]

Stop eating my sesame cake.

[David Sims]

He has made me really love Congo through his eyes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But Crichton turns to making movies. He's made. He made some pretty good. Coma is a fun movie. Great Train Robbery.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Never seen Looker or Run Away.

[David Sims]

No, those are both Todd Selleck, right? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Interesting looker. Looks kind of cool.

[Sean Fennessey]

Looker's good looks could kill.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, it seems that this movie's about cosmetic surgery on women. I'm sure Michael Crichton have very normal feelings about that. But then in 1983, he thinks of this. This idea as a screenplay. He's like, I am not going to write a novel. I want. Want to turn that into a movie.

[David Sims]

Let's also acknowledge Westworld and Future World have already happened in the 70s. He's already set up this theme park that goes wrong thing.

[Griffin Newman]

And he said his approach to writing the story was initially about, like, the person doing the cloning in secret, and he couldn't find a way in. And he kind of put it aside, and then he was like, no, this needs to be about, like, the environment where people are interacting with dinosaurs. Right. He didn't want to do it in, like, dinos in New York City.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

He wanted it to be in, like, sort of the natural world. And then eventually he's like, I'll write a book like that, Whatever. That's his way in. And he thinks about the theme park idea, which, of course, he had done with Westworld.

[David Sims]

Right. So he's incredibly prolific from the 60s through the 70s. And then 1980, Congo, 1987, sphere, 1990, Jurassic Park. He, like, slows way down. Yeah. Some of this bumps up against the timeline as established in JJ's dossier, which I fully trust. I'm just going to repeat what I heard and try to make sense of it relative to this timeline. As explained. I went to a very bizarre event some years ago that was a 92nd Street Y talk for the release of Michael Ovitz's book, his memoirs, in conversation with Bill Murray, his favorite client he ever had. He decided to have moderate, even though Bill Murray is famously someone who has not had reps for 35 years. But Ovitz, I think, was his last rep he ever had. And Murray asked him at one point, what is your proudest accomplishment of your entire career? And he said, getting jurassic park out of Crichton. And he unpacked that. To say, Michael Crichton basically had writer's block for most of the 80s, which.

[Griffin Newman]

I believe is true, at least novel.

[David Sims]

Block, and could not get something figured out. It makes sense that Jurassic was something that had been floating around in different forms. But then this final breakthrough of, like, he's figured out how to frame this story and that the second, like he says to Ovitz, here's the pitch. DNA, dinosaur theme park. Michael Ovitz, like, rubs his hands together and goes to everyone and is like, I have the greatest project of all time. Incoming.

[Griffin Newman]

Spielberg, of course, crosses paths with Critonia, which was conceived of as a film. And Spielberg helps pivot that thing to a TV show that was mildly successful. Being sarcastic. It was hugely successful.

[David Sims]

Later inspires the Pit, America's most successful TV show.

[Griffin Newman]

And that is, at one point, Crichton's like, yeah, I finished this book about dinosaurs, Jurassic Park. It's getting proofed by publishers.

[David Sims]

He gets the early tip off Spielberg.

[Griffin Newman]

Spielberg's like, would love to read that. Dinosaurs. Sounds cool.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And now Crichton claims that he basically was like, I don't want to get into some bidding war. Like, if you want to make it, like, let's make it, but.

[David Sims]

And Michael Ovitz said, I would love to get into a bidding war. Let's make a bidding war start.

[Griffin Newman]

As we said, Warner Brothers, Tim Burton, Columbia, Richard Donner, Fox, Joe Dante. Like the. All these studios enter a bidding war for the rights to that movie. James Cameron also claims he tried to buy the rights.

[David Sims]

Makes sense.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I just pause you for one moment, please? What would be the contemporary version of the spitting War?

[Griffin Newman]

It'd be like. Okay, so are we trying to think of, like, filmmakers who are allied with this? Just like Villeneuve and wb, Right. Or Villeneuve and Lesnar.

[Sean Fennessey]

Chris Nolan and Universal.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Chris Ollen and Vilnius. Villeneuve and wb, Tarantino and Sony. No, I'm joking.

[Sean Fennessey]

Would watch it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, sure. No, okay, but like Villeneuve, your question.

[David Sims]

Is, who would be the people pitch for the project if Jurassic park the galleys were hitting.

[Griffin Newman]

Look. No, I love it. Villeneuve and wb. It's Nolan and Universal. Disney is like, I don't know. One of the fucking Kon Tiki guys who made Maleficent 2, who now also directed Tron. Yeah, that's what they keep being like. It's one or two of them. I can't remember if they work together or not, but, like, they.

[David Sims]

I truly could not tell you. If one guy has been making all those movies they've been switching off, Paramount.

[Griffin Newman]

Would be like Kaczynski or something.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was gonna say Kaczynski for Apple, but.

[Griffin Newman]

Or Apple, but.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because if you're doing Tron, you know, that'll.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Netflix is like, our new chatbot will be directing this.

[David Sims]

It would have been netfl. Like putting forth Russo, but now I feel like the Russos have. Well, I mean, the Avengers 5 and 6 being Agbo Productions is fascinating to me.

[Griffin Newman]

The is Agbo again.

[David Sims]

They're a production company that they. Fascinating to you because that was like a name they used in their improv and sketch troupe in college that they found a funny last name in the.

[Sean Fennessey]

Gun to your head.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Avengers 5 and 6. Will they be good?

[David Sims]

No, I don't think so. I mean, maybe I'll be wrong. I just think that. I think it's. I think it's gotten unwieldy. I don't think there's any Way to focus things back up. But all I'm saying is there's ways.

[Griffin Newman]

But I don't know if they'll pull it off.

[David Sims]

No, their whole thing was, oh, we got funding, we're going to be our own studio. Like they were trying to almost do something closer to DreamWorks, making stuff for the streamers and whatever. And going back and doing Avengers could be seen as some admission of failure. Oh, we got to go back and play by someone else's rules. Part of the announcement of them coming back quietly was these will be an Agbo co production that Disney and Marvel were so desperate to get them back that they're cutting the company in on it. Which is kind of unfathomable and is.

[Griffin Newman]

A big thing to cut them in on.

[Sean Fennessey]

I will not defend any of the other things that they have worked on, but those things that they made with that company.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, I like the Avengers films.

[David Sims]

I like those successful and I. I really like it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. James Cameron, yes. Says when he saw the film he realized I was not the person to make it. Mine would have been more like Aliens with dinosaurs. Dinosaurs are more for kids. He made a movie for kids. His sensibility was right. I think I would have been too nasty. Classic James Cameron. Like weird big dick, like backhanded compliment shit. But right. Like James Cameron's always doing that.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm too much of a big boy for this shit.

[Griffin Newman]

My favorite thing is how he correctly injected himself into the implosion of the submersible. He's like, yeah, I knew that fucking thing. Who cares? That guy.

[David Sims]

I trying to think who the other people would be though that they like put forward. There aren't. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Now I just. Vna of Nolan. Those names are, are very obvious in terms of who wants to do a big scale thing. There's this guy, Colin Trevorrow. I mean he's a real home run. Sorry.

[Sean Fennessey]

Anyway, borrow, you know, like, borrow ideas.

[David Sims]

From other people or like Sabaros.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Spielberg said he liked dinosaurs a lot. His favorite dinosaur movie, the Good Dinosaur.

[David Sims]

Oh right. Fucking timeline.

[Griffin Newman]

He's like King Kong is certainly the. Like the T. Rex in King Kong is the cinematic dinosaur. I remembered best when I read the book, the Crichton book. It flashback to Jaws for me. I was a huge Ray Harryhausen fan. I always thought about like, you know, making a movie like that. But he also said, I'm trying to make a good sequel to Jaws. It's shameless, I can tell you that now. He said that to the New Yorker in 1994. Interesting that he is Kind of admitting, like, yeah, this is kind of in my continuum of creature feature.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And the cast is broader, but you do have the kind of core trifecta thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, 100%. It's three good character actor people rather than like, you know, lunkheads.

[David Sims]

Cause it's one of the most fascinating sort of what ifs with this movie is when Universal spends a bunch of money to buy this for Spielberg, their immediate thought is like, oh, Harrison Ford and Sean Connery is Hammond. Like, this should be the most all star A list movie possible. And Spielberg's like, shouldn't we spend the money on the dinosaurs? Like, just get good actors. Which was basically the Jaws formula. Three people who were not obvious leads for a blockbuster. But I also think both of those movies, this movie and Jaws, have the thing that's also the core thing that has always made Star Trek work a lot of the great, like, franchises, which is like, you basically have it. Ego. Super ego.

[Griffin Newman]

Ego. Right.

[David Sims]

You have three fun characters that all represent the sort of corners of the psyche.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely.

[David Sims]

In. In how to address a humongous problem.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

A big shark.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's a, there's a, there's a quote, unquote casting. What if that, I think, materially explodes. That though.

[Griffin Newman]

Go ahead.

[David Sims]

Which is Kurt Russell.

[Sean Fennessey]

He would be.

[Griffin Newman]

So if it's.

[Sean Fennessey]

If it's Kurt Russell in the Sam Neill role, it's a totally different movie. It is. And I think. And I love Sam Neill.

[David Sims]

I do too.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe better. Because Kurt Russell on an adventure. There's not anything better in movies.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a very fun movie. I just think that this movie is really special because of Sam Neill. Because that's. It's such a curveball to have that guy in that position in the movie, like this guy where you're like, huh, I'm rooting for this guy. It's not like, he's tremendously unlikable. Sam Neill's a good actor. He's got a good presence. But you are like, wait, this is the hero? Is this kind of like, you know, kind of. He's kind of introverted. Like, you know, like, I don't really want to talk to people or like. And not in like squirrely, like Newt Scamander way. Just in a sort of like, don't.

[David Sims]

Get me started on Newt, because like.

[Griffin Newman]

With Newt Scamander, who I think about a lot, I'm like, this movie is setting itself the immense challenge of like, someone who doesn't want the camera to be pointed at, can't make eye contact with people look at anything.

[David Sims]

He was hiding in his coat at.

[Griffin Newman]

All times and like, oh, what an interesting challenge to have someone, the most unpersonable guy, like, be the hero.

[David Sims]

I think Kurt Russell.

[Griffin Newman]

And then don't be like, come on, guys.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, that's fun.

[David Sims]

Like, that's harmonizing. Right? Move, right. I think Russell would have been a little too winky in this in a way that would have been fun if this was the version we had. I'd be like, he's great in this. But there's something about the, like, earnestness of Sam Neill, of him not being the kind of guy who you're used to existing in this kind of movie. Him being a little bit, like, cold and thorny.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is like. But this is tombstone breakdown era. Kurt Russell, I know he's very serious at this time. He's really good at this time.

[David Sims]

But I think I. I agree with you. I agree with you. Do you not think if you put him in this movie with Spielberg and you're like, you're reacting to dinosaurs, he starts to go a little jack?

[Sean Fennessey]

He might, he might. And it's a different movie. And I think everything David just said is bang on. Like, Sam Neill makes the movie totally unique and unusual, and his evolution as a character is a big part of why you get emotionally connected to the mo. But I just see Kurt Russell and I'm like, damn, he's like taming dinosaurs. I want to see that. I want to see that today.

[David Sims]

I mean, the third thing, like, fucking Jurassic park free.

[Griffin Newman]

By the way, the third thing Alan does, apart from learn how to put on a seatbelt and learn how to connect with children, is he fucking fends off the most direct assault on his girlfriend by the sexiest man who ever lived. Ian Malcolm is, like, suddenly training his fucking missile sights on Laura Dern, and Samuel's, like, waving him off.

[David Sims]

This is one of those rare examples of a performance that is, like, so painful, parodied, so impersonated, so memed. And you watch the real thing and you're like, it. The real thing is bigger than anyone else's interpretation of it.

[Griffin Newman]

Very big performance.

[David Sims]

It's astonishing.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's so clear that Steven Spielberg wants to. Jeff Goldblum the way he films him in this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. I mean, the. The films with, like, Marilyn. Yes. Yeah. It's so funny that they eat their Chilean sea backs in what seems to be like a black box theater with, like, perfect spotlights illuminating all of them. It's such a weird viewing.

[Ben Hosley]

I've really actually took in that scene. And, like, it's. It's bonkers.

[Griffin Newman]

It's bonkers because a lot of Jurassic park is set in, like, an office with. Right. With computers and like a kind of chintzy Disney Worldy kind of. Yeah. And then that one scene, Spielberg was clearly like, now let's wipe the shit out of this dining room scene.

[David Sims]

It's so funny because it's. Of course. This is Dean Conde. The great Dean Conde, brilliant collaborator of.

[Griffin Newman]

John Carpenter, as well as the Wicked.

[David Sims]

What's Wicked's last name? My joke is that Dean Conde looks like an easy. But he's doing the fucking pools of light thing that Spielberg's gonna, like, take to the ends of the earth with Janush.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And Schindler's the first Janush.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the handoff. Of course. This is when Janush is going to take over after this one.

[David Sims]

I mean, all of the sort of, like, correct decisions of Spielberg. Reads this book, he's like, oh, this character feels a little bit like Brundle from the Fly cast. Jeff Goldblum. Jeff Goldblum's like, I've kind of done this before. Wouldn't it be funny to play this against type? This guy's a rock star. And they're like, oh, that would be fun. This is the guy who'll give you the color in the first 40 minutes of the movie, and then he dies. And then they're like, we cannot kill this guy off.

[Griffin Newman]

He is really being introduced to someone. You're like, oh, I'm excited for this kind of jerk to die. Right? Like, he's so high on his own supply.

[David Sims]

The 30 minutes of him just aggressively trying to bed Laura Dern is the kind of plotting you do when you're like, and by the way, this guy's gonna be dead in two minutes. We're going heavily, literally, him.

[Sean Fennessey]

Drops of water on the hand in that sequence. You're like, it's about to be cursed.

[David Sims]

For his final mom. And there's something about the way he plays him. It's the weird magic of Jeff Goldblum where you're like, this guy's a creep. And I kind of have no problems with it. Where he's just like, in any other setup, everyone is rooting for this guy to be kicked out of the movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's the only character, though, who's written with any panache. Like, none of the other characters, lines of dialogue have personality, but that's. They're machines to push the story forward.

[David Sims]

The judgment on Goldblum's part and who knows how much of it was motivated by ego and him being like, I want to be cool, but there's a story sense here that is very smart of, like, everyone else is just kind of doing their job. And Hammond, who's the only other guy who's sort of getting some joy out of it, is trying very hard to do this avuncular Disney thing. You do need someone who's like, got swagger.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. He pulls it off. He's on fire.

[David Sims]

He's on fire.

[Griffin Newman]

He's an incredibly impressive and obviously iconic performance.

[David Sims]

David, on your spreadsheet, do you have any acting nominations for this movie?

[Griffin Newman]

It's literally Griffin having the same thought.

[David Sims]

I was watching this, being like, I bet David gives this one supporting actor nomination, and I'm trying to figure out who he would pick.

[Griffin Newman]

I have Jeff Goldblum.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Ray, fine. Schindler's List. Jeff Goldblum, Jurassic Park, Tommy Lee Jones, the Fugitive, Val Kilmer, Tombstone being Kingsley. Schindler's List. That's a pretty.

[David Sims]

Pretty good five.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Pretty. Pretty boring, but pretty good.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

1993, man. Great year for movies.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Piano, Age of Innocence, Groundhog.

[David Sims]

Incredible year for Samney.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

An incredible year for Steven Spielberg.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Laura Dern. This is only three years after Wild at Heart, which we've covered semi recently.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And she's only, what? Like, she's very. She's quite young. 25.

[David Sims]

25 in this movie. Yeah. We want that. Someone who started out as a child star, really started acting in her teen years, is then sort of like a young adult star. The shift to this movie, you're like, oh, this is an adult person person. Like from this movie on. Laura Dern is permanently 45 years old. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Because of how they style her. And now her style is so cool. But I think at the time she's trying to. They're trying to style her older.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Like, she's got this kind of like professional, sort of workmanlike, you know, thing going on with the khaki.

[David Sims]

She has the gravit. I'm saying she, like, she pulls it off. How many movies do we see like this where you introduce a 25 year old and the movie says, like, this is the smartest scientist in the world. And you're like, this is a child straight off.

[Griffin Newman]

This is Hawk to A.

[Sean Fennessey]

Come on.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

She's not a paleobotanist or whatever the hell.

[David Sims]

If the timeline was shifted nine months, Haley Welch would be in Jurassic City. Right. If that happened nine months earlier or Jurassic City film nine months later, what the movie's called. No, now it's called something dumb. It was Jurassic City was the working title. Now it's called like Jurassic World Revival.

[Griffin Newman]

So fucking funny that they were like, we're going to make a Jurassic park movie. And you're like, you are. And you're like, yeah, we. We fucking made it. It's got ScarJo. It's probably fine. Yeah. Anyway, Jurassic Park. Go ahead.

[Sean Fennessey]

Laura dern is only 57.

[David Sims]

This is the thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Because she started out very young.

[David Sims]

She's so young in this movie. Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's very foxy in this movie. I don't know what to say.

[Griffin Newman]

Mega babe. Have you seen the meme about how she sits down?

[David Sims]

Oh, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Where she goes like.

[David Sims]

Yes. At the table in the dining room.

[Griffin Newman]

Very, very interesting choice. All right, back to. To this dossier. Okay. Michael Crichton.

[David Sims]

Another incredibly bizarre choice for this film.

[Griffin Newman]

Michael Crichton. We're on the script. Spielberg's like, to Crichton, like, write me a script. It won't be the shooting script or anything, but can you please just take the first pass of turning this into a movie? Crichton agrees. Then Mollya Scotch Marmo, who co wrote on Hook but doesn't get a credit on it, comes aboard. She says her big contribution was fleshing out Ellie Sattler and the killer kids. And then David Kep, who had written Death, becomes her for Zemeckis, is brought on board and he is the one who's like, we need to have this Grant character have more of an arc and it should be the kid thing because that is not present in the books. In the books, Alan Grant has no problem with the kids. He's not like, oh, these fucking kids. That is them. Going from like, eh. He kind of has a chip on his shoulder about children for whatever reason to he loves these two. Two kids is David Koepp's big idea.

[David Sims]

Not to do endless comparison point here. But it is astonishing how relatively understated his arc is compared to, say, Jurassic World, in which characters keep on calling up Bryce Dallas Howard on the phone and saying, when are you going to stop focusing on your job?

[Griffin Newman]

And why do you keep running this dinosaur park?

[David Sims]

They're the only joy in life, right? Like I. It's one of the things I find most fascinating about this movie is every time I watch it, I have a different interpretation of Sattler and Grant's relationship.

[Sean Fennessey]

What is it right now?

[David Sims]

Right now I think they have stuff only. No, I think they have slept together intermittently a number of times and have Never been fully committed, but have never had a conversation about whether or not they're committed.

[Griffin Newman]

That is how I take it, is that they are romantically involved because they work in this bizarre field where all you do is, like, sit in a trailer in the Mojave Desert or whatever, scraping bones. And he's handsome and she's beautiful, and so they do a little bone scraping. But, yeah, like, he's too emotionally stunted to be like, would you like to, like, get married? Or, you know.

[David Sims]

Right. She's dating a much older guy who is emotionally much younger than her, who's.

[Griffin Newman]

Intellectually very impressive and was like, what if dinosaurs were birds? And everyone's like, whoa.

[David Sims]

And is what I. I think is the nuanced version of this is like, that. It's not like she's like, why won't you settle down and have kids with me? The idea of kids sort of represents, like, when is this guy gonna, like.

[Griffin Newman]

Grow up a little bit?

[David Sims]

Diversify. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it takes Malcolm being like, I marry a new woman every year. And she just jumped to the top of. For Grant to be like, hello.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, he doesn't even, like, say, like, we are dating. He's just like, yeah. When Malcolm's like, are you two. He's like, yeah. And like, that's about as much as he can describe it.

[David Sims]

Right, Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. He can't go further than that.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Because it's a PG movie. Pg. It is a PG movie. Which is insane.

[Sean Fennessey]

Or is it PG 13?

[David Sims]

I think it has to be PG 13.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It might be PG 13. It's PG 13. In Britain, it was PG.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember that. And in the United Kingdom of Don't you dare. And it was a little surprising. It's because this movie is very intense.

[David Sims]

It is.

[Griffin Newman]

And it has a severed arm in it.

[David Sims]

Let's also just to. To the point of that conversation, call out not the rating, but the. The. The relationship dynamics. Goldblum and Dern date for a while after this movie. Like, the scenes you're watching have the juice of. This is actually working.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, for sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

The. The hand. The water on the hands. I'm like, they're about to fuck. They are. They are moments from fucking.

[David Sims]

They call cut. Both of them are going to the same trailer.

[Sean Fennessey]

She's giving him none of. She's giving Sam Neill none of what she's giving.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's more of a. Like, oh, you sweetie pie.

[Ben Hosley]

Goldblum just looks so fucking hot.

[David Sims]

He does insane.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's crazy shot of him with his shirt open and he's laid up and he's braced up. It's crazy. What it's like professional wrestling or something.

[Griffin Newman]

There are people in 1993 because, like, in 1993, saw this film in theaters. I was young, and then I see Independence day when I'm 10, right. And I'm like, yeah, well, Jeff Goldblum is like a movie star from movies that I see. I know that. But there must have been so many people going to see this movie being like, wait, this sort of squirrelly guy from like Buckaroo Banzai and the Big Chill and the Fly is like, now like Earth's hottest.

[David Sims]

I have a very distinct memory of my father after.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm sure your father was activated by.

[David Sims]

This Lost world's opening weekend, when it had the biggest opening weekend of all time. Or maybe when it was at the end of its run, but on during its box office run, saying to me, you ever think about how weird it is that Jeff Goldblum's in three of the highest grossing movies of all time? He was like, that's just weird.

[Sean Fennessey]

And Jurassic Park, Independence Day in nine months.

[Griffin Newman]

Holy Man, Holy Man.

[David Sims]

Holy man was huge. People forget that.

[Griffin Newman]

So Kep says his approach was. Yeah. Throwing out details. He was like, the minute characters started talking about their personal lives, you don't care. You're like, I want to see dinosaurs. Right?

[David Sims]

It's one of those funny little. That like, BD Wong is one of like five solo cards. He's on the billing of the poster. And it's because they cast him while they were still adapting it. And his character's so big in the book that they were like, well, he'll be the fifth lead and then it ends up being one scene. But the contract was locked in.

[Griffin Newman]

And like, the other thing about Jurassic park is that like, it's. It's not really a fast paced movie as much as Kep is saying, like, I simplified. I took things out. The movie has an incredible amount of setup to the point of now. I love the first 45 minutes of Jurassic Park. I love to like, luxuriate in it.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

But if I'm watching it for the first time, I'm probably like, can. Can we get to the dinosaur antics?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And now you watch it and you're like, this movie is explaining every single fucking thing to you that you need to know for the last half of this movie to be perfect.

[David Sims]

It's Inception shit. Except it's the thing that makes Spielberg the king, is he knows how to do this in a Way that doesn't sound like an entire info dome.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And also in Inception, in Act three, he's like, three other rules I forgot to mention.

[David Sims]

But, like, this is such.

[Griffin Newman]

Here's how limbo actually works.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, you guys know where I stand on the whole situation. Yeah. It's just a movie that does not make sense. Unlike Mr. DNA, who does a wonderful job making us understand in clear terms what is at play in the film Jurassic Park.

[David Sims]

But that's perfect Spielberg magic, where he's, like, making a joke out of the fact that he needs to stop the movie for four minutes and explain the.

[Sean Fennessey]

Science using Greg Burson's voice, who is like, a legendary ending. Animated voice actor animation.

[David Sims]

This is what it would be in this reality. This is how to make it palatable to the audience.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're on tour. It's like you're at the park on tour. It's a brilliant idea.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Laura Dern says she was making a film called Wild at Heart, which we discussed on this podcast not that long ago, and she told Nick Cage, who she had just worked with on Wild at Heart, they want to put me on the phone with Steven Spielberg for, like, a dinosaur.

[David Sims]

So it's like a straight jump, basically.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, which makes sense, right? Like, and Nick Cage says, and I love this. You're doing a dinosaur movie. No one can ever say no to a dinosaur movie. And she's like, what? And he's like, it is the dream of my life to do a dinosaur movie. It makes so much sense that Nick Cage in 1990 was like, if you don't fucking get this movie, I'm going to put on a blonde wig and say, I'm Laura Dern has.

[David Sims]

I mean, this is fascinating because Cage also, at this point in time, is kind of stuck dead between Ian Malcolm and Alan Grant.

[Griffin Newman]

He could be Malcolm. He could be Granted Grant. He could kind of do either.

[David Sims]

Kind of.

[Griffin Newman]

He's not quite.

[David Sims]

He's not right.

[Griffin Newman]

The energy the movie arrives at, for sure.

[David Sims]

But has he ever gotten to act with a dinosaur?

[Griffin Newman]

Surely.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, he did pay $276,000 for a dinosaur skull.

[David Sims]

Right. He's gotten to live with a dinosaur. He has dinosaur skulls in his school.

[Sean Fennessey]

Where is your dinosaur skull here in this wonderful studio?

[Griffin Newman]

Great question. Where is it?

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm.

[Ben Hosley]

Boys, can we budget for a dino.

[David Sims]

Boat now that we've done this episode? It could be a business expense.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, absolutely.

[Sean Fennessey]

Write it off.

[David Sims]

Are you looking up if Cage has ever been in a movie with a dinosaur?

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, I wasn't. I'm sorry. I can if you want.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't believe yet.

[Griffin Newman]

That's kind of crazy. I can't think of one.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he should. Okay. William Hurt turned down Ellen Grant in one of the more insane decisions of his life. Possibly he could play 100%. Like, he makes sense.

[David Sims]

I would also contend, like, he's 10% colder.

[Griffin Newman]

I agree.

[David Sims]

Than Sam Neills, but, like, at the.

[Griffin Newman]

Time, that's a very logical choice. Right. Kurt Russell and Richard Dreyfuss were both deemed too expensive because this movie was. The budget's going elsewhere, folks. Right. And Neil is brought in last minute. Neil says, like, you know, he was going to a job and was basically told, like, steven Spielberg needs to talk to you in, like, half an hour. And two days later he had the part. And three weeks later, he's in Hawaii, like, making Jurassic Park.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Jeff Goldblum, I assume, mostly being cast off of, like, Dead Calm.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I. He was a guy.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe not the Omen movie.

[David Sims]

Right. I'm like, what?

[Griffin Newman]

Which is bad. But he's, you know, kind of what makes it.

[David Sims]

I'm saying Dead Calm just because it was a little bit of a crossover. It was sort of the timing lines up. Like, what was the. What is.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's that in Red October, maybe. Sure. He's a face, right? Yeah, yeah. No, it's interesting, though. It's like, I don't know why he.

[David Sims]

Covered Juice a certain amount of this run up. He's tremendously good in the fucking Carpenter movie movies. And Piano, obviously, is the same year as this. It's one of those perfect storm moments where he just fully transcends. But, yeah, he's a very odd choice for this Goldblum.

[Griffin Newman]

Janet Hershensen, who cast this movie, read the book and was like, I'm seeing a Jeff Goldblum for this role now. Jim Carrey read for the part, and they really liked his audition. And that is another fascinating fork in the road to imagine. But Goldblum was pretty much always their first choice. And Steven at one point during the meeting said to Goldblum, like, there is some sort of idea of maybe we just merge the Allen and Ian characters into one character. Like, why do we have these two.

[David Sims]

Leads, like, sinking out loud.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

And Goldblum feels like Goldblum was like, don't do that.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, that's a bad idea. I know what to do for this character. Make him different, you know, don't make me just like the hero of this movie. Because one of the problems with Lots World is he has to be the hero.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And he has to, like, deliver lines of dialogue, you know, like, that are just explaining shit about what's going on with dinosaurs. And you're like, that's not what he's here for. He needs to be the chaos element. Absolutely.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

I think he might be maybe one of the best bad boy scientists in all of movies.

[David Sims]

I mean, put forth a competitor, like, who even comes close? Who's the rival for that throne? This is basically him defining that as the type that everyone else tries to figure out how to put in their movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Dr. Frankenstein, he was kind of a bad boy scientist.

[David Sims]

This is true. Dr. Evil. Kind of a bad scientist.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. Dr. Strangelove. He was kind of a bad boy scientist.

[Griffin Newman]

What about Dr. Strange?

[David Sims]

Do you know that in Strange. Certainly in London, a city that David Sims once lived in, there is about to open a staged adaptation of Dr. Strangelove adapted by Armando Iannucci, starring Steve Coogan.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was made aware of this by our friend Tim Symons.

[David Sims]

That is kind of wild.

[Griffin Newman]

Sounds fun.

[David Sims]

We covered. You were our guest on that.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was.

[David Sims]

I wish them all the best. That's a huge swing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Should. Should not be touched. Strange love.

[Griffin Newman]

Probably not.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is a. It is a moment in time movie.

[David Sims]

That if anyone were to try to touch it in a different medium and format. Those two guys working together make a ton of sense. But it is. It is certainly a huge.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you guys see the franchise yet? Have you.

[David Sims]

I've not watched.

[Griffin Newman]

No. Is that. No. Yeah. The whole. It's either swings or, you know, he hits or misses. Like. Like, it's. Yeah.

[David Sims]

I want to let him do a third TV show that has a very expensive premise rather than just perhaps a dinosaur show.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. So John Hammond is a more straightforwardly greedy character in the book. Spielberg is like, can you make him a little more like sort of Steven Spielberg?

[Sean Fennessey]

Y.

[Griffin Newman]

Like he's dreaming of a utopia. And it's a little Walt Disney and very Disney esque. I think Richard Attenborough is brilliant cast.

[David Sims]

I think it's incredible.

[Sean Fennessey]

Agree.

[Griffin Newman]

He is obviously being cast sort of as a guy that Spielberg probably looks up to just to some extent. Like in Gandhi Beat. I was gonna say ET's ass raw.

[David Sims]

At the Oscars, if you like. Think about them probably spending that award season.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Crossing paths over and over again. Obviously the gauntlet of, like fucking awards campaigning was not what it was back then.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure. But nonetheless, he's a young gun and Richard Attenborough is the only pro. Richard Attenborough is a great actor. You Know who then becomes a incredibly medium director.

[David Sims]

But at this point he had not acted in a long time.

[Griffin Newman]

Probably not. And, and, but I think he's a.

[David Sims]

Sort of second wind after this.

[Griffin Newman]

I think he's great casting because he got the, you know, Santa Claus energy that was then immediately literally turned into a Santa Claus movie the next year. But there's, there is an element to him where he like, this guy is tricky. Or like there is a little darkness.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like there's. He. There's something sinister about classic like film.

[David Sims]

Director thing where like all great film directors are kind of manipulators. There's a little bit of like sweet talking, saying different things to different people to get people.

[Griffin Newman]

You're right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Though. It had been 14 years since he had acted in a movie when he came the Human Factor, the late Otto Prepinger movie. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, he's really good in the movie. And the movie's ultimate take. Yes, is like, he's a great showman and he just wanted to put on a show and he really just didn't know what he was doing. Right. He didn't know what he was thinking. Putting live fucking dinosaurs in the same place as people.

[David Sims]

It basically feels like the entire entertainment industry is now run by John Hammonds who don't know what they're doing.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Aren't thinking about the content consequences.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Or they're just. Yeah. I mean any. Well, there's so many jokes I could do. But like, I do think this is like a movie about like late capitalism. Right. Or whatever like that. Like, I'm not sure Spielberg is saying that when he's writing the script, but this is a movie about like the end stage of capitalism where, like where we have the money to do this, so why wouldn't we do it? It'll make money. And it's like, because you have no control over this whatsoever. Whatsoever.

[David Sims]

But also like weaponized, monetized, perma adolescence. And like this is one of the movies that starts to create the world that we all are guilty of living in. Of just like constantly being obsessed with the things that we grew up with.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like the Edmund Hillary. Is it? You know, whoever said, like, why do you climb Everest? Because it's there.

[David Sims]

Right, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like, why. Why would you make dinosaurs? Well, we can. Someone else is going to do it if we don't do it. Let's do it.

[David Sims]

But also, isn't that what every kid is dreamed of? Like, shouldn't I spend all of science, technology, all. All of the. The financial capital in the world to make little boy's dreams come true.

[Griffin Newman]

I want to.

[Ben Hosley]

I want to be on the record. I think we should make dinosaurs.

[Sean Fennessey]

I wanted to have this conversation.

[Ben Hosley]

I think we should.

[Sean Fennessey]

The critical dynamic of the movie is at that dinner table scene, which is so beautifully lit.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Dr. Ian Malcolm keeps pushing on Hammond and saying, you know, you spent so much time thinking about whether you could. You didn't think about whether you should.

[Griffin Newman]

Iconic speech.

[Sean Fennessey]

And obviously, Ian Malcolm is the seer of this film and he understands from the moment that he gets there, this is a bad idea.

[Griffin Newman]

And that's. The book has the dragon spirals, which is like him.

[David Sims]

The dragon spirals.

[Griffin Newman]

Like a dragon spiral. I swear I've talked about it before on this podcast, but it's like a dragon curve. Sorry is what it's called. It's like if you just draw a line and then you draw a left and then right, eventually you make these shapes, shapes that you would never see coming. This is like fundamental chaos theory shit, where it's like you cannot predict where this is going. And, like, the first chapter, you just see a little curve, and by the later chapters, there's a little picture of a dragon spiral. Because the idea is, it's like they never foresaw X, Y, Z.

[David Sims]

Sure, but.

[Griffin Newman]

So that's what Ian Malcolm is putting forward.

[Sean Fennessey]

We're not chaos theorists. We're not DNA genetic titans.

[Ben Hosley]

Well, I dabble.

[Sean Fennessey]

You consider yourself.

[Griffin Newman]

That's stressor.

[Sean Fennessey]

Honestly, that is true.

[David Sims]

He's not Professor Crispy, he is Professor Chaos.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Should we.

[Sean Fennessey]

Should we make. Ben wants to make dinosaurs. I think we should make dinosaurs.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

I don't think we should. And this has always been my contention is what could go wrong? Talk about how few good dinosaur films there are. Right? It is. The struggle every one of these sequels has had is like, this is the ultimate one movie concept where you want to believe that all the characters walk away from it and have learned their lesson, and society at large learns the lesson. Lesson. I'm a big defender of the Terminator franchise, constantly repeating the same mistakes, because I think that speaks to something more fundamental, which is like, the abstract idea of technology helping us. You could keep falling into different traps with that. The dinosaur thing is so specific that we're supposed to believe that every four years someone else is like, I think I know how to do it right, though.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's really funny in Jurassic World when they're like, let's do a pterodactyl. What could go wrong? That's the dumbest idea. In the history of time.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? The thing where it's like build a net, I guess, around the whole park.

[Sean Fennessey]

Force field. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

No, we should not be making dinosaurs. But if you do want to make dinosaurs, please do make it on fucking Isla Nublar, far away from me. What if they're small though?

[David Sims]

Then we can call it Prehistoria.

[Ben Hosley]

What's that?

[David Sims]

The Charles Band Full Moon production, where it was little stop motion dinosaur. You know what I'm talking about? The Prehistoria franchise. Yeah. With the kid from Last Action Hero.

[Sean Fennessey]

The hero film series. You might enjoy.

[Griffin Newman]

The villain of this movie is Wayne Knight. Dennis Nedry, who is just like this. I mean, again, as written by Michael Crichton. This kind of like slovenly, disgusting person. Right? Like Crichton is clearly so kind of like. But he's also. It's like he just doesn't have enough money. Richard Attenborough keeps sort of alluding to like personal choices that led him into.

[David Sims]

Which I love.

[Griffin Newman]

We don't know what that is. What do we think it is?

[David Sims]

But also there's the thing with.

[Griffin Newman]

He sabotages the park because he needs money.

[Sean Fennessey]

So you'll have enough money for new glasses. That's the funniest part.

[David Sims]

When he's sliding down the mountain, getting the guy to pick up the tab, right? For his type where he's like, don't skimp out the way Hammond has.

[Griffin Newman]

That's how this happened in the first place.

[David Sims]

There's a dual pronged thing of like Nedry's bad with money, but also Hammond's maybe underpaying everybody.

[Griffin Newman]

And I wrote this take on the Atlantic years ago, but the hero of the movie is Ray Arnold, Samuel L. Jackson's character, who is just fucking doing his job.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he is someone who's trying really hard.

[Griffin Newman]

This version of a job anywhere. Yeah, his job is running a large sort of organization, security system park. Right. He could do it at Disney World. He could do it in a non entertainment function. He got the fucking dinosaur park, right? Like that's the job he ended up.

[David Sims]

He's also doing it humanistically. This is what I'm talking about. Character working is like every decision you're watching filter through a human face with thoughts and feelings.

[Ben Hosley]

There is no filtered through the end of a cigarette.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, it's a perfect performance. There is no line from him in this movie. Ray Arnold, that's like. But isn't it cool that like I run the T. Rex pen? He doesn't give a about that. And then late in the movie Ian is like, hey man, can you go to the other end of the park and turn the lights on? Cuz we turned him off. And he's like, yeah, sure, I'll get my jacket. And then he dies off screen. And like. Right.

[David Sims]

Which I believe there was a film sequence. And like, this is another thing that makes this movie so different from all modern blockbusters is Spielberg still had to deal with limitations.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. There was like technology, mess with things.

[David Sims]

But they were just like, we're not giving you extra days.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

That scene is cut. Figure out which scene you want to cut.

[Griffin Newman]

And obviously we just see his hand. But there's such a tragedy to like. Yes. He was literally just here to make all of the things run in this absurd, stupid enterprise.

[Sean Fennessey]

I love that solution though, to just have the hand land.

[Griffin Newman]

It's such a shoulder.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's pure like universal monster movie, you know? Or you're just like, oh my God. Which the movie is. You know, you were saying that it is and it isn't, but it is a movie that he watched on TV when he was seven. Like, that's clearly what he's going for here.

[David Sims]

Three or four things burned into his brain forever and haunted him for the rest of his life. Pulp Fiction is the year after this, correct?

[Sean Fennessey]

It is.

[David Sims]

Sam. Jack is so good in this.

[Griffin Newman]

He's amazing. Yep. But this is still in his pure character actor mode. Before Pulp, he'll do anything.

[David Sims]

Right. As much as he's had a few kind of like splashy performances, this is still. This guy's versatile. He's just. He's like a five tool player actor. He'll do whatever you ask him to do.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

The next year he's codified into Samuel L. Jackson. Yes. And anyone who is hiring him wants a little bit of that. Even if he's playing against type. You want some of that? Like, this is the last moment when he can sort of play this role the way he does.

[Sean Fennessey]

He never worked with Spielberg again. Right.

[David Sims]

Which is fascinating.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. He should work with Spielberg again right now. Like, why not? Right? Right.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And it is one of those things where everyone's like, Samuel L. Jackson, the highest grossing star of all time. Like Jurassic park is just like a fucking footnote on that list. Anyway, he doesn't swear.

[Ben Hosley]

It's weird.

[Griffin Newman]

This is what his butt.

[Ben Hosley]

He's like, he says, but okay.

[David Sims]

He's like a very button down tired, you know, like focused.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like how Jeremy Piven was bald before he had hair. Like, Sam Jackson looks older in this movie than he does in later movies.

[David Sims]

Of the 90s, well, it's the opposite pivot. He's got hate hair in this.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I guess he has a little hair, but you know what I mean? Like, you know, he hasn't like, kind of clammed up, you know, like, anyway, some of the other casting decisions. Ariana Richards, she's told this story a lot, but like, they just brought her in office and they would just scream, please. And her scream was the only one who woke up Steven Spielberg's wife from the couch.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

Joe Mazzello, who had screen tested for Hook and was a little too young for it. He's just got such a sweet face.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I always really liked him.

[Griffin Newman]

I do too. Like now as a grown up actor, he's still got just that sweet face.

[David Sims]

But he off of this. This is like Kubrick sees this and is like, here's the guy I can make AI With. And this is when Spielberg starts getting involved in AI Is all on the promise of like, Mazzello is my robot.

[Griffin Newman]

Wayne Knight, as you said. Spielberg says he watched Basic Instinct, waited for the credits to roll, and wrote down the name Wayne Knight. He was basically like, what's the name of that guy?

[David Sims]

Yeah, can we just like step through the way night 90s very quickly? Because even just the fact that he's like ping ponging between Mad about yout and Seinfeld, that he's jumping between two NBC sitcoms that are like within the top ten or not Mad about you. I'm sorry. Third from the Sun. Yeah, but like two huge sitcoms without getting tied down to like, series Regular.

[Sean Fennessey]

Contracts and your beloved Toon Sylvania.

[David Sims]

Well, which he's great on. He plays Igor.

[Sean Fennessey]

He does.

[David Sims]

He closes out the decade with Toy Story 2, probably the greatest villain in cinematic history.

[Griffin Newman]

He's really good in Toy Story too. Even though it's basically just like, yeah, can you do Wayne Knight? Like, you know that guy.

[David Sims]

But that's the thing. Like, from this point on, they're just sort of like, I think this is the movie that makes everyone realize they should be using him as a voice actor.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right. He's got great voice.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, he's amazing in jfk, jfk, Basic.

[David Sims]

Instinct, like Dead Again, Jurassic Park. I mean, I'm skipping over some other things that don't really matter.

[Sean Fennessey]

Space Jam, I think is where most kids from that.

[David Sims]

That was my To Die four. Then it's like, right, he's in Hercules as a voice. Yep. He's in Tarzan as a voice. He's the villain in Toy Story 2, like, that's just triumphant.

[Griffin Newman]

He was the voice of the zoot suit in My Favorite Martian.

[David Sims]

Well, of course he was.

[Griffin Newman]

Remember that?

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you remember that?

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know if I ever saw My Favorite Martian.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not good.

[David Sims]

That was my birthday movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Really?

[David Sims]

Yeah. Unfortunately, that was when no movies came out in February that were worth a damn.

[Griffin Newman]

Rat Race.

[Sean Fennessey]

Race.

[Griffin Newman]

He's fun in Rat Race.

[David Sims]

Yes. What does he play in Rat Race again?

[Griffin Newman]

Can't remember.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jeff Daniels is the lead of My Favorite Martian.

[David Sims]

Yeah. And Christopher Lloyd got to see this. Elizabeth Hurley. It's not good. I think he hits Rowan Atkinson with his car in a rat race.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I think that's his role.

[Sean Fennessey]

Like you do.

[Griffin Newman]

So Dennis. He plays Dennis Sentry. Anyway.

[David Sims]

He's phenomenal in this film.

[Griffin Newman]

They filmed the movie in Hawaii. They wrapped 12 days ahead of their 82 day shooting schedule.

[David Sims]

Despite them fighting, like horrible weather conditions.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Insane. Yeah, exactly.

[David Sims]

They were using like the prop helicopters to actually get people off the island to safety. They lost the set, like. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Film is budgeted around $65 million. People claim it actually went way over. We'll never know because who cares? Like, it made fucking billion dollars basically.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But, um, Spielberg had gone way over budget and schedule on hook and I think was like really intent on like, I am not doing that again.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And every action sequence had been storyboarded like two years before. And Spielberg says that's why we didn't go over, you know, over schedule. Like we were just like really on top of all that stuff. And obviously the big sort of behind the scenes story with Jurassic park park is the blending of classic animatronics and cgi. Brand new CGI technology.

[David Sims]

What was supposed to be animatronics and Go Motion. Phil Tippet's proprietary stop motion process.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And instead Phil Tippett.

[David Sims]

Fuck.

[Griffin Newman]

I was going to make a joke about his Poker Face episode, but then I forgot what happens in it. Anyway, sorry. Go ahead.

[David Sims]

They build a bus that they have to scan to get the eye contact of. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Excited for season two?

[David Sims]

Yeah. No. Phil Tippett, who had created Go motion, which like Ed 209 and the tauntaun and Empire Strikes Back and had sort of figured out this evolved form of the Harryhausen craft that also involved like motion blur, allowing you to photograph stop motion in a way that more seamlessly allowed it to integrate with live action elements. That was the plan. Stan Winston will build these full body things for close ups for heads, whatever. And then Tippet will do all of this and I think they were using ILM for some amount of provisions.

[Griffin Newman]

That little bit of CGI is going to blend in there, but that's it. And Dennis Mirren is like, I think we can just fucking make dinosaurs now.

[David Sims]

They're the two guys. Spaz Williams, brother of Harlan Williams, creator of Puppy Dog Pounce. And the other guy's name is Mark Az Dippie, who later goes on to direct Ben Spahn.

[Ben Hosley]

Cool.

[Griffin Newman]

And he did a perfect job.

[David Sims]

They're the bad boys.

[Ben Hosley]

Holds up beautifully.

[David Sims]

They're the bad boys of ilm.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

The Kasdan ILM miniseries on Disney, if that hasn't already been Zaslav'd off. The service is incredibly good and gets into this in depth. But these two guys were like, we think we can fucking crack the code.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Have you seen Jurassic Punk? Do you know about this?

[David Sims]

No.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a documentary about Steve Williams.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

And it chronicles from his perspective.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Everything that transpires as ILM is starting to make waves. And, you know, Mark and Steve are, you know, Dennis Mirren won a lot of Academy Awards, but they are largely credited with effectively, like, I don't want to say inventing, but executing what becomes the template for all digitally animated figures.

[David Sims]

In Dennis Mirror Co signed. He backed them up, he supports them.

[Sean Fennessey]

He builds this system for them at ilm. Those guys made all guys and Jurassic Punks. You know, Steve Williams has had a remarkable flame out in his life. It's like kind of a set, that story.

[David Sims]

But both him and Dippy now have just gone on to make shitty animated films.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Like Dippy directed the Pete Davidson Marmaduke movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes. And they talk about that a little bit in the documentary and it's very sad, but.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Not even the theatrical. The other one.

[David Sims]

No. And. And, and did like four direct to video Garfield movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Garfield gets real. Garfield's Fun Fest, Garfield's Pet Force.

[David Sims]

And. And Williams did the Wild, which is like one of the most forgotten films.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you think when they were talking to each other though, Marcy Dippy was just like, what I really not real Leguizamo in. Just get that guy on the hook and then let go. Sorry. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think this is like one of. This is part of the reason why I'm like, this is the beginning of something. Because these two guys come up with this idea. They convince their boss that he should pitch it to Steven Spielberg and his boss effectively pitches it to Steven Spielberg, which then more or less sidelines two of the most significant creators of on screen effects in the previous 25 years in movies. Tippet and Tippet and Winston.

[David Sims]

I mean, this is the key to win.

[Griffin Newman]

Tippet famously is the one who said, think I'm extinct. And they put that in the movie.

[David Sims]

And has talked about. There's an incredible documentary about him as well. But he basically had like a full on existential crisis about this. Spielberg saw that he was spiraling and basically was like, well, you know what? But they don't really know how to animate.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Made him the choreographer.

[David Sims]

Right. They don't understand performance yet. So you. It became the stop motion was used basically as previs for them to recreate in cg, which kept him employed. And then he just pivoted to like, I guess I gotta learn computers.

[Sean Fennessey]

I particularly like what Spielberg tells the an meters, which is that Tippet understands how dinosaurs move.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Which is like, no one does. Like, we don't know for sure. Like, this is just. We hope this is how dinosaurs.

[David Sims]

Also, here's what I contend. You watch Tippets work and you're like, yeah, this guy does understand how dinosaurs.

[Sean Fennessey]

It feels that way.

[David Sims]

I'm not even talking about this film. But you're like, watch Empire Strikes Back and you're like, he understands how a tauntaun moves. You're like, taunton's not a thing.

[Griffin Newman]

You're 100% right. He makes the movements feel real realistic for the body we're seeing. Right. This oddly shaped thing we're seeing.

[David Sims]

And when people talk about why is Jurassic park still more effective as a special effects movie than most films we see today, 30 plus years later, I think the answer is that you have this melding of crafts that you have Winston at the top of his game, Tippett at the top of his game, and ILM starting to push through something new. And those three concentrations meeting in the middle synthesized to a really strong language of performance for how the dinosaurs move.

[Sean Fennessey]

One thing that I want to say about this rewatch. Watching the movie in 4K, the daylight sequences look bad. Don't look good.

[David Sims]

No, the.

[Sean Fennessey]

The nighttime sequences look.

[Griffin Newman]

You mean the CG specifically. Like especially Neil going yes to the Brachiosaurus, where he's kind of gesturing at clearly nothing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because like the anime inverse of most movies.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[Sean Fennessey]

Things in the. In the dark now look terrible. The lighting is horrendous and the digital rendering is awful in the day. Actually, like when you're watching a Marvel movie, you're watching like, oh, these make. And it's a fascinating inversion of what we expect.

[Griffin Newman]

And you always are told like, oh, why does everything look dark and bad, like, ah, it's cg. And you're like, but that's not what I was raised learning. I was raised learning, like, Star wars looked best against the black of space. And it was harder for them to do hoth and stuff. I know that's prec.

[David Sims]

And I think it was like Williams and Dippy went to Spielberg and were like, it's going to look better if you do like night. It's going to look better if you have rain. If we can have this deflection. Like they all strategize together. But there's such intentionality to how those sequences are organized. But I do think when you see the sick triceratops on the ground and this incredible full body animatronic, that's like a jaw dropper.

[Griffin Newman]

It works completely all of the animatronics.

[David Sims]

It's the most magical moment of the early daylight section. But then when you get to like nighttime raptors and T Rex, the CGI becomes like, extraordinary.

[Griffin Newman]

But like, they built a gigantic hydraulic T Rex, obviously, that is so cool. They built raptor suits that people are inside of.

[David Sims]

Like, they're using every technique.

[Griffin Newman]

The Dilophosaurus is this amazing creation. Like, that's just the rig of it in the car with the frill, like, is so cool. It's like you say it's just everyone's at the top of their game. It's kind of like Total Recall. We talk about that with Total Recall too. Where you're like, this is the peak of this kind of effect that soon will be dying. Like the sort of practical effects.

[David Sims]

There's a shot that I never processed fully that just kind of knocked me out watching it this time where it's one of the shots in the T Rex nighttime barrier sequence where it starts with the animatronic head, like kind of coming right up to the window and then pulls away. And then within the same shot, without an edit, it transitions to being a CGI T Rex. Like, he knows the blind spot that allows him to basically do the Texas switch between the two. And you buy them being the same creature spiel work.

[Sean Fennessey]

That guy's good.

[Griffin Newman]

And obviously, famously, he finished editing this film, but post was not done. They had to do lots of effects. And he just starts doing Schindler's List and would color correct this movie at night. Insane over satellite or whatever.

[David Sims]

He's kind of said that's one of the things that helped him from like totally falling into the depths of depression during Schindler. That there was some kind of Balance.

[Griffin Newman]

And then he goes to John Williams, and John Williams is like, yeah, I can crank out some bullshit for you.

[David Sims]

He literally so epic, this theme.

[Griffin Newman]

I think the music. So obviously, John Williams's music is most important to Jaws, Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Right. Indiana Jones and Indiana Jones. Right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And this one. In some ways, this theme is kind of incongruous with this movie because it is this triumphant theme for a closed, shitty theme park that goes wrong at the first death.

[David Sims]

But that's why it's important, because the theme is. This is the projection of what Hammond thought this would be.

[Griffin Newman]

The majesty of it, 100%.

[David Sims]

You watch the T. Rex sequence, which I feel like people agree is like the high point of the movie, Right? It's like the most kind. Yeah. There is no music in that entire sequence.

[Griffin Newman]

Of course not.

[David Sims]

It's all the Rory, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, there aren't even really like, that many instances of Williams doing, like, a tension theme in this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It is tough, but, yeah, definitely not.

[David Sims]

There's sort of the. Like, this is the Jurassic park entrance gates music.

[Sean Fennessey]

But the movie is. It does have. We're getting to the island, we're leaving the island. Triumph is essential for both of those things. So it's a very unusual score for him. It's very. Very brass forward, very trumpet forward, which is not something you usually. It's not as symphonic as a lot of his scores usually are. And it. It does seem like it's like taking the piss, I guess, a little bit. I don't know if. Did they have a conversation about that? Was he just like, here's what I got for you. Good luck? Like, I'd like to know a little bit more about how they landed on this style. It's very unusual.

[David Sims]

Sounds like that's what the last 20 years of their relationship has been. I don't know when that. That starts, where Spielberg's like, I just trust you.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it really sticks on. I mean, I think he wanted to convey a sense of awe, clearly. Right. And wonder, which he can do in space. Oh, Superman is the other one. Those are the five, where you're like. I mean, the whole thing, I think with John Williams, with Superman as well, is what Bryan Singer does, Superman Returns. He's like, I'm just doing the John Williams music again, Like, I don't want a new score.

[David Sims]

I would contend that it's not one of his best scores, but, like, in terms of.

[Griffin Newman]

If you can.

[David Sims]

Well, no, that is one of his best scores. No. What I was going to say is like Home Alone might be the movie 100% where his score adds a full star.

[Griffin Newman]

It does. It's so weird.

[David Sims]

It is the most trans.

[Griffin Newman]

That's another one where they're like, so this movie is about a little 8 year old beating the out of Joe Pesi with like Pesi with metal.

[David Sims]

If that movie does have that score.

[Griffin Newman]

Shall I conjure Christmas, a crisp December night like for you perfectly Tear freezes on your cheek.

[David Sims]

Powerful musical embodiment.

[Griffin Newman]

You realize that he's just like shooting marbles at a criminal.

[David Sims]

But this is what I'm saying. If it doesn't have that score, that movie is a disaster.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

And ET Is like a masterpiece, even if it doesn't have a single second of music.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, E.T. i forgot about E.T. what's the matter with me? That's more important than any of the other ones except for Jaws. Jaws is the most important for Star Wars.

[Sean Fennessey]

The craziest thing about his career is that he was making film and TV scores for 17 years before Jaws.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And then Jaws, he's just like doo doo, you know? And Spielberg's like, I'm paying you a salary. What is this?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's like, no, it'll be good. And then George Lucas is like, you're the doo Doo guy, right? Can you do like maybe just like bring back Aaron Copeland for my sci fi movie? And he's like, yeah, sure. My fucking sleep.

[Sean Fennessey]

Also, Jay.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, such a good score. Incredible.

[Sean Fennessey]

But that's Mr. X.

[Griffin Newman]

We had this conversation Griffin, when he got that Indiana Jones and the Clock Store.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know he got the Oscar Nomin. I'm like, oh, the Oscars are so lazy. And they put that on. And I was like, this is an.

[Sean Fennessey]

11 out of 10.

[David Sims]

I know.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely amazing shit.

[David Sims]

I know. There was a lot of sort of autopsying of the. The underperformance of the Music park and.

[Griffin Newman]

The circle of nonsense. I was gonna say Indiana Jones. Sorry. And the circle of nonsense.

[David Sims]

I think call Indiana Jones and the Clock of Bullshit might have been where they went wrong. That might have been a thing that turned off audiences.

[Sean Fennessey]

Can I be honest?

[David Sims]

Indiana Jones and the Clock of Bullshit. They five comedy points.

[Sean Fennessey]

I liked it.

[Griffin Newman]

You like Dial of Destiny? I liked I'm gonna get back to it soon. But I did not love it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think that has flaws.

[David Sims]

I like sections of it and these sections I don't like turn me off so hard. Even more so than Crystal Skull, which is also a movie I like sections of.

[Griffin Newman]

I basically love Crystal Skull and I Think Crystal Skull really on rewatch. Really eats Dial of Destiny's lunch in the door. So a lot of choices are made that I think are interesting in Dial of Destiny is light on choices. The thing I like about Dial of Destiny is the last act where there are finally some choices.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I wish the last act was like the second act.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And maybe the first act.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. I just think the last act is as bold a thing as you can do.

[Griffin Newman]

Really interesting. But I think when we have Phoebe Waller Bridge in a fucking casino with him, I'm just like, this is like from solo.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, this is like knockoff. Like. Right. Like just like rent a Disney movie recently.

[David Sims]

Basically a five act movie. Right. The first act I don't give a shit about at all. And in fact creeps me out. The like deep fake dharma which lasted 25.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't like that it's too long.

[David Sims]

Then the New York section. I like.

[Griffin Newman]

I like old indie.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like. But it's a little. I just.

[Sean Fennessey]

My note was I just wanted him to stay at the Battle of Syracuse. I didn't want him to come back. Back. If he had stayed and he was like, I want to live inside of him.

[David Sims]

He pushes back on this and I would have loved.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't push back on him staying. I push back on him dying. I didn't want him to die. But I. Him staying is kind of an interesting choice. Although. Then what do we. It's like there's some pottery and he's just kind of sitting there like. Like actually let me just see it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I just need to see him like, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

Who.

[Sean Fennessey]

Who is this?

[Griffin Newman]

Imagine someone brushing off with at the time.

[David Sims]

I wish the movie opened in New York, didn't have the flashback.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't need the flashback.

[David Sims]

And started time traveling. Like an hour in the horse thing though is incredible.

[Sean Fennessey]

That sequence is great. When he gets on the H is racing through the summer.

[David Sims]

I'm gonna have to rew § I.

[Griffin Newman]

Like I'm gonna have to rewatch.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's pretty good. People are really, really hard on that movie. And they're not hard on much worse.

[David Sims]

Drek in I like New York and I like ancient Rome and everything else kind of is for the birds.

[Griffin Newman]

We.

[Sean Fennessey]

By the time this comes out, a complete unknown will have come out. On this very day a new complete unknown trailer came out and I. I almost threw up watching it.

[Griffin Newman]

I haven't watched.

[David Sims]

You're really stressed out.

[Sean Fennessey]

But I so stressed out.

[Griffin Newman]

I saw.

[David Sims]

This is how I feel every time there's a New Toy Story. Like, don't play with me.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's disgusting to me. That's how I felt watching it.

[David Sims]

I went to see the substance with my mother, which was a very fascinating experience. Yep. And she turned to me during the Complete Unknown trailer and just went. He doesn't have the arrogance. That was her take on Timmy too Winsome, which has been sticking with me. He doesn't have the arrogance.

[Sean Fennessey]

New trailer tries to sell that heart. I'm not sure it gets there.

[David Sims]

Anyway, by the time this episode comes out, Timothee Chalamet has probably won best actor.

[Sean Fennessey]

Probably true.

[Griffin Newman]

If Tim, he's not gonna. So thank God he won't do it.

[David Sims]

But make your prediction. What were you about to say?

[Griffin Newman]

No, it just. It would be crazy if, like, another music biopic performance in a movie wins and then people are like, what happened there?

[David Sims]

Almost immediately against it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Seriously.

[David Sims]

David.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

We're both big fans of public transit.

[Griffin Newman]

Long love to take the subway. The bus.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The city bike, even any. Anything.

[David Sims]

You know why? Because we live in a society.

[Griffin Newman]

True.

[David Sims]

And it's nice when that society functions. True. You know what's one of my biggest pet peeves? You're on a crowded subway car and someone is there just taking a phone call.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure. Chatting on the phone or too loud.

[David Sims]

Or playing their music without headphones.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, my goodness.

[David Sims]

Or playing a game with the. The sound on. You know what I'm saying?

[Griffin Newman]

Playing Disney Emoji Blitz with the sound on.

[David Sims]

I always have it on mute is the point. Because this is a public space. We all share this. We have to show respect. But beyond that, an astonishing lack of privacy. Listen, do you really want the whole train to know about your medical test results or whatever you're talking about?

[Griffin Newman]

No, I don't.

[David Sims]

How? Well, you're blitzing.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

The fact that you're listening to the newest episode of don't insert Controversial podcast here.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't want anyone to know anything. So I use ExpressVPN.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Because all your traffic throws through, you know, Internet service providers that know what sites you're visiting.

[David Sims]

It's like a complicated Transaction in the.

[Griffin Newman]

US ISPs are legally allowed to sell that information to advertisers. But Express VPN reroutes 100% of your traffic through secure encrypted servers. So your ISPs can't see your browsing history at hides your IP address. It's easy to use.

[David Sims]

It's so easy to use.

[Griffin Newman]

App. Click button.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that's it. I'll be honest here I was scared off of VPNs for years, even after hearing people talk about it, because I.

[Griffin Newman]

Thought they were a hassle.

[David Sims]

I know they say they're easy, but it's not going to be that easy. It really is that easy. And beyond privacy, there are many reasons why it is worthwhile to use a VPN.

[Griffin Newman]

It also comes with ExpressVPN, comes with Identity Defender, which is a new suite of tools to get your data removed from data brokers. I love that when your data appears on the Dark Web and even insure you against data theft for up to $1 million. Now, I spent a few years really getting my stuff onto the Dark Web.

[David Sims]

You were trying to get it out there. I was loading it in an interesting new method of distribution.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's see what happens.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Let's just, like, pour it. But now I'm getting it out of there. You got to get it out of the Dark Web.

[David Sims]

You got to pull it out. Of course, look, it's always relevant for us to mention. Another great use of a VPN is change your location to be able to access different libraries on streaming services.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. You want to watch a movie that maybe is not available on your streaming service in this country? Well, maybe it's available in Hungary. Who knows?

[David Sims]

Look, Amy Heckerland. Coming up next on this podcast, a lot of her movies are flipping in and out of circulation. Once you get past the big ones.

[Griffin Newman]

It'S worth taking a look on the monocle.

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

So protect your online privacy today by visiting expressvpn.com check that's exp r e s s v vpn.com check to find out how you can get up to four extra months free. Expressvpn.com check.

[David Sims]

David.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Look at the physical work I'm doing here.

[Griffin Newman]

You're scratching.

[David Sims]

Oh, I got.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you have an itch of some sort?

[David Sims]

I got that spring travel itch.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, you want to travel in spring?

[David Sims]

I want to travel in spring. We all know the term spring travel itch.

[Griffin Newman]

My friend I just saw, she's off to Nashville. Spring travel. I just. I know someone who's doing some spring travel. I think I feel I saw another friend who was traveling somewhere. Greece.

[David Sims]

You said that in a weird way.

[Griffin Newman]

My friend, she's off to Nashville. I saw spring travel.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Now, my other friend went to Greece. Spring travel.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Ben Hosley]

I just went to St. Croix.

[David Sims]

Spring travel.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben was on island time and Ben in the spring.

[David Sims]

I'm sure when you went on a Caribbean vacation in the middle of the spring, you decided to wear Your best Quint items that you bought last fall. Heavy sweaters, long pants.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no.

[David Sims]

We recommended Quint's products that made sense for that season. But guess what? Quince has raised range like lightweight shirts and shorts for $30, pants for any occasions, comfortable lounge sets, things that are good for spring travel.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep. And they've got premium luggage options, durable duffel bags to carry it all.

[David Sims]

Spring travel.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's all priced less to 50 to 80% less than similar brands.

[David Sims]

I would say that's the best part.

[Griffin Newman]

They're partnering with the factories to cut out the cost of the middleman and pass the savings on to us. They only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that.

[David Sims]

I love that.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm going to look on quints right now and see if there's any spring travel items that I might want. I didn't even know about this. Look, they have a whole travel section. They've got suitcases large and small.

[David Sims]

I like that. I like that.

[Griffin Newman]

Or a bundle if you want. Both. They got packing cubes. My wife is a big fan of packing cubes.

[David Sims]

David. I am not surprised to hear that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Certainly not.

[David Sims]

That tracks.

[Griffin Newman]

They've got cool little toiletry bags. They got one of those.

[David Sims]

I love toiletry bags. Yeah, I gotta travel with like four different toiletry bags.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, I might get this backpack. Very stylish looking neoprene backpack.

[David Sims]

What about shorts?

[Griffin Newman]

Well, sure, I was in their travel section, but yes, they of course have shorts.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Short pants. Yes. Some might call them short pants. Yes. I'm gonna get myself myself some plus fours and a travel backpack. And I'm going to be the Tintin of spring. Going to, you know, Tintin in somewhere. David. Inn somewhere.

[David Sims]

Right. Your spring travel plans, of course, is you driving yourself to the beach three times a week for four months. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Can't wait for degrees. So for your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quint. Go to quint.com check for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n q ce.com check to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com check. Okay, let's talk about the film.

[David Sims]

This movie opens with a very Jawslike sequence. Right. The sort of. You're not seeing the dinosaurs. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I would say even as someone who's seen this movie one million times, you always forget it opens with creepy music over these kind of ominous titles. And then this. Right. This kind of like, monster sequence, Right? Yeah.

[David Sims]

Characters we're largely not going to see ever again. It's silence and faces and roars and brutality. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do we need this?

[David Sims]

I do think it's.

[Griffin Newman]

I think you need it because the.

[David Sims]

Movie, in the way we were saying.

[Griffin Newman]

Of like, the movie takes so long to get to the action.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Not in a complaining way. It just does.

[Sean Fennessey]

You need a little action up.

[Griffin Newman]

So maybe you just need a little kind of activation at the start.

[Sean Fennessey]

Such a cliche structure. Now this thing, this, like, little tease of the world we're going to go to with some violence that maybe it just feels more rote in the aftermath, I think.

[David Sims]

Here's what specifically helps, what the sequence helps with in the rest of the film. One, setting up that we're not gonna see this much staff later. We're not gonna see all the different departments.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. They're setting up why they need in safety inspection and, like coverts. Right. I guess that's the sort of.

[David Sims]

I also think, talking about the cynicism of this movie, there's something very pointed in, like, it opening with a death that is never commented on again. Right. That the movie starts to be like, oh, and Hammond's grandchildren are in danger for the first time. He's starting to question the morality of what he's built. But you're like, there has been this sort of rounding error in setting up this park of, like, how many fucking guys have died just trying to transport these dinosaurs, Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Just like, literally figuring out the basics of, like, what do we keep them in.

[David Sims]

Right. I think there's a. There's a helpful extrapolation in watching this sequence and being able to. To then copy paste in your mind. Like, so this has probably happened a hundred times. This is happening simultaneously across different parts of the park every day.

[Griffin Newman]

This is also just a point that the movie sort of makes and then has to just. And then we don't worry about it because everything goes wrong. But, like, this would be largely bad, right? The park experience, they're nowhere near, like, figuring out how it works.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

Because it seems to be basically like, okay, you see some Brachiosauruses or something, right? This sort of. They're easy, easier to see because they're chill. Right? But then the T Rex experience is basically like, drive by this paddock, that's probably like a thousand acres. Maybe we drop a goat over there and we'll see some trees. Russell, like, what. What's the plan?

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, as a frequent attendee of the zoo. Yes. With my young child, this is kind of what it's like to go to.

[Griffin Newman]

The zoo is like, where you're like.

[Sean Fennessey]

You go to the tiger cage and then. I got. Tigers are sleeping. Sorry. Come back next time, there'll be another $40, you know, like, that's kind of how they do it.

[Griffin Newman]

I saw one.

[Sean Fennessey]

What's that?

[David Sims]

No, that. The suggestion of, like, oh, fuck, I think I saw one.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, right, Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

I guess you're right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Keeps you on the line.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just like, you're not gonna. How are you ever gonna see the raptors? They're, like, hunting animals that, like, hide in the fucking grass.

[David Sims]

It's what you just said. They haven't really thought this through yet. They're still, like, field testing.

[Griffin Newman]

And don't get me started on Jurassic World. Inventing an invisible dinosaur. You want to see the dinosaur? What is the thinking there, my friends? Why would you make it invisible?

[David Sims]

It is wild.

[Ben Hosley]

Because they can, David.

[Griffin Newman]

And of course, I always cite Dan Harmon's rant about, in that movie, Chris Pratt saying, like, so you invented, like, a new kind of dinosaur that turns invisible and is crazy. Seems like a bad idea. And just Harmon being like, if someone has to say that out loud, your movie is fundamentally fucked up. Like, we know you don't need someone to say that. And this movie has the way better version of it, which is like Malcolm being like, you're grappling with forces you don't understand. Like, you know, that's. He crystallizes in a much more interesting way.

[David Sims]

But also, that Hammond's like, the thing is the wonders that we all, like, get to be close to and possibly touch these things that have always felt mythological. But as you said, the thing that's so compelling to children is this was real. Like, from a young age, you're starting to have these, like, mythologies popped of. Like, well, that's like fantasy.

[Griffin Newman]

There's no truth fairy.

[David Sims]

This is like fairy tales. And then you get all that doesn't.

[Griffin Newman]

Show up for less things eliminate.

[David Sims]

But you're like, dinosaurs are the one thing that feel magical to you as a child and remain real, even though you don't get to make contact with them. It feels like Hammond's like, oh, there's some degree of, like, people want to feel the danger, but they even talk about they've built in this thing of. What is it? The fucking lyceum. Like, the thing they don't have in their DNA strand that can deactivate the dinosaurs if they get off the island, that is.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, that's true. They need a particular Enzyme that they only get from the park and they'll die.

[David Sims]

But, like, versus the Jurassic World movies are like, we have to make these more dangerous. How do we make them deadlier? You're like, the takeaway from this would be these people still are on this, like, quixotic quest to figure out how to tame dinosaurs. And they think if we neuter them a little bit more, they'll be safe.

[Griffin Newman]

We can control it. I mean, why would you make. Jurassic park is a movie about, right. Science thinking it can control nature and it can't. Jurassic World is a movie about, like a. Sequels are out of control. And, like, every sequel has to be more.

[David Sims]

How am I supposed to. T. Rex with knife teeth.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean. So, yeah, so we begin with, right, the raptor sequence, where we don't see a raptor, we just see death and chaos. And so, okay, let's meet Alan Grant and Ellie Sattler, paleontologists who are out on a dig. How do we get to know Alan Grant? How about he's just like an absolute demon to this, like, kid who.

[David Sims]

Snarky little kid.

[Griffin Newman]

Velociraptors for being small.

[David Sims]

That's one of my least favorite online fan theories.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, that he, like, turned out to be Chris Pratt.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh. And how do we let these things into our life?

[David Sims]

I know whoever posted that originally, I hope is in Guantanamo now.

[Griffin Newman]

This movie, obviously, and the book made Velociraptors famous.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Velociraptors are actually smaller than they were depicted in the movie. They're more like kind of turkey sized.

[David Sims]

Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's Dionicus, I believe.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Correct me if I'm wrong. That would be more like this big sort of pack hunting animal, I guess. But also, I think, like, it makes.

[David Sims]

Them the coolest dinosaurs in a way they definitely weren't before the 90s, right.

[Griffin Newman]

This is like their fame. Obviously. There's a basketball team called the Raptors because of this movie. Right. But yeah, every kid our age grew up being like, number one coolest dinosaurs. The velocity, Right.

[David Sims]

Which is just them doing the math of, like, we need to have dinosaurs who can walk through doors. We need dinosaurs who are the exact right size to be a little bigger than kids.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, also, like, let's. This movie is just like, can we make alien for 8 year olds?

[David Sims]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Because like, that's what the Velociraptor is, where you're just like a perfect killing machine that has no feelings. Whereas the T. Rex is a hero in the movie, basically.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do we think they overstate the power of the raptor.

[Griffin Newman]

Like imitate that, the Alan scene where he's talking about like, you know, then they're fucking closing in.

[David Sims]

But isn't that basically PR of them being like, people are going into this movie, they don't know about raptors. We need Alan Grant's instructional at the beginning of the movie to be telling you how deadly a raptor is. So you have that in your back pocket.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's what I mean. Like, are they relative to what we actually believe is true of raptors? Did they make them more of a killing machine?

[David Sims]

Yeah, they made the xenomorphs.

[Griffin Newman]

But I do think it works in the movie because anytime someone is outside in the last act of the movie, you are scared. And that sequence where Ellie, you know, where the hunter guy with the hunter guy's name, Muldoon, is like, we're being hunted. Bob Peek, and she just runs. And Spielberg, we just, you know, and she does the thing where she swings from the tree and you're like, she's got five seconds. You believe it right before like a raptor's just going to take her out.

[David Sims]

But it's, it's the classic Spielberg of just like, don't introduce pieces onto the chessboard too early. Don't introduce anything that is irrelevant. You know, like you set up the idea of the raptor. That is just sort of seems like a toss off of like showing how bad this guy is with kids.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

But it's like, no, the last act of this movie is going to be the raptors. They can be indoors, right. They can be anywhere. They're fast, they're small. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But also the raptors, it's like they're just true villains that you can't root for. And the T Rex is kind of a hero that you love in this movie, right? That's a good point. He gets the victory in the movie. He takes down the raptors. They don't get any victory. They don't take down.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

They don't kill one dinosaur in this movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

That is all the little bends of the world are like T Rex, man. T. Rex is the man. Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

And like he's huge.

[Ben Hosley]

He's got a big ass jaw.

[Griffin Newman]

His roar is the coolest, like, bit of sound design in the movie. Obviously we should say she, she, she. Although. Yeah, well, they're all women, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This is a.

[David Sims]

Although some of them are. Some of them are flip flopping with that frog dm.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what's going on, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Making eggs, life finds a way. Blah, blah, Blah.

[Sean Fennessey]

That has a pretty cool quick, didn't it?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do you think evolutionarily that would take a little bit more time.

[Griffin Newman]

How long this has all been going on? I bet. I think if you dive deep on.

[David Sims]

That vision, R and D was, was pretty intense and drawn out on Jurassic Park.

[Sean Fennessey]

Five years, 25 years. How long are we talking here? I think it's a good dinosaurs.

[David Sims]

I think between 5 and 10 is my guess.

[Sean Fennessey]

5 and 10, okay.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Like, I think these dinosaurs have been on this land in some form for multiple years before our characters are visiting our heroes.

[Sean Fennessey]

So this is an important part of this story. Obviously the genero characters in introduced because he's there to really check up on behalf of the investors as to how this is all going. But it's like, we're good. Like they, they made the dinosaurs. Like the investor should be nervous if they can't make the dinosaurs. We're good to go.

[David Sims]

Right. Isn't the idea that Gennaro is.

[Griffin Newman]

He doesn't know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, why is he. Why is Hammond not telling anyone that they've got hundreds of dinosaurs on this island?

[David Sims]

These are all fair notes.

[Griffin Newman]

And I think the best way to think about it is because he's afraid of corporate like plundering. Right? Like, because he's afraid of what will happen, that someone will be like, wait, he actually, the crazy guy did it.

[Sean Fennessey]

You think there's, there's like lots of NDAs here for all the employees.

[David Sims]

You have to fill in blanks here. But that like Hammond is coming off of a Disney World level success where he, dare I say it, has blank check status, where he's going around to people and he's like, hey, here's my new project. You can buy in. I don't tell you anything, anything about it. Like, he's going like, Mike Lee rules. I need investors. There's no script. I pick the cast.

[Griffin Newman]

He does kind of look like you.

[David Sims]

Get to see it when the cut is done. Mike Lee would have been great as John Hammond.

[Sean Fennessey]

Little grouchy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I think they would have had a grouchy more closer to the book.

[David Sims]

Possibly, but that's my read. Is that like he has had some series of successes that are so undeniable that he goes and pitches a blind project that's like, it's going to take 10 years. I need this amount of money. You have this, this percentage. I don't tell you what it is until it's done. And Gennaro is the first guy, on behalf of all these investors who is seeing the thing not just seeing it, but for the first time being like, that's what the concept is.

[Sean Fennessey]

Isn't it weird that all of our PT Barnum figures are just into tech and politics now? And they're not into making that we like, that's funny.

[Griffin Newman]

And like, tweeting it sucks. They're just like, the best thing you can do as a rich guy is to use your phone.

[David Sims]

This is my Megalopolis is a benevolent act.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Because I'm like, this is what weird rich men used to do.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Gaze into my mind. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And you're like, whoa.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

I'm like, whether or not you like it is irrelevant. This is like the best way people can spend money.

[Sean Fennessey]

Your mind is full of Jon Voight's boner.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You love Hudson Yards. This is my big take. Is Megalopolis is about Francis Copeland. These sons of. He responded to Hudson Yards. The way generous looked at it at Jurassic Park.

[Griffin Newman]

So, yes, everyone is brought to Jurassic park, but really we only see Grant and Ellie getting the pitch. Like, the kids show up out of nowhere. Ian shows up basically out of nowhere. Gennaro. You know, and they get the hard sell and they love it. They see the Brachiosaurus. They're amazed. It's the most famous Spielberg face of all time. Right. Is the two of them seeing the dinosaur.

[David Sims]

He gives you several consecutive. Him physically turning her head.

[Griffin Newman]

Brilliant.

[David Sims]

You already have a little bit of like. She's calling out the. The plant life.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[David Sims]

Is this incompatible? Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You just got this because it looks.

[David Sims]

Questions that start to be like, maybe.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm a dumb movie watcher, but I think it was literally this time around where I realized she was a paleobotanist.

[Griffin Newman]

She's a paleobot.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was like, paleontologist. Just like this other guy. But that's not what she's there for. The plants.

[David Sims]

She's all about that plant life, which.

[Griffin Newman]

I guess they're also creating, by the way. They don't get into how they're.

[Sean Fennessey]

Well, she talks about those different distinct.

[Griffin Newman]

Plants, but, like, where. How they doing that?

[Sean Fennessey]

Good point.

[Griffin Newman]

Cool.

[Sean Fennessey]

Where's Mr. DNA for that one?

[David Sims]

Plant DNA.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. See, I'm mosquito. And I'm like, all right, fine. A mosquito.

[David Sims]

The mosquito thing. When I did finally see this movie at whatever age as a child on TV or VHS after Lost World, the SAP thing, I was like, holy. Cuz I just saw Last World on its own. And I was like, I'm just taking this as a given. They brought dinosaurs back. I didn't know what the answer was. The SAP thing, I was just like, this is the smartest movie solve I've ever seen. And I still kind of feel that way 30 years later.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is Criton's idea, right? Completely came up with.

[David Sims]

That's the trillion dollar idea.

[Griffin Newman]

It's Crichton taking real science and combining it with pseudoscience, which is like what he would do. And it's really clever, perfect. Like Pulp Logic taking an idea and then bridging it with essentially fantasy. Because I think it's like, it's like there's no DNA that old that you could ever find. You could find old DNA, but not 65 million years. That's ludicrous. And even if you did, right, you can't this just then be like, boo.

[David Sims]

Yeah, Boing.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, like it turns into all the DNA or whatever it is, the.

[David Sims]

Ideas like, but missing pieces, just so some.

[Griffin Newman]

It doesn't matter.

[David Sims]

We're all.

[Griffin Newman]

The DNA sequence in the movie. The mystery that you're just like, yep, this can happen right now.

[David Sims]

And I love that.

[Griffin Newman]

I completely buy this.

[David Sims]

The carousel of progress. You're the rotating audience seeing the glimpses of these different, like, offices.

[Griffin Newman]

And then, I mean, I love them interrupting the ride. Like them being, you know, Attenborough being like, do you get it? Do you get it? And then at a certain point they're like, wait a second, are those T Rex eggs? Like, how do I get this bar off of?

[David Sims]

Yes. And which is what I think they all play very well is if you've devoted your life to these studies and then you find out like, wait a second, this guy's been doing this shit for eight years in private.

[Griffin Newman]

Some asshole just has like a grow light.

[David Sims]

They have like a logo in uniforms. Like, this has just been happening. The merch is already on shelves.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is there what I mean, is there anything like that happening right now in the world?

[David Sims]

This is. I mean, I think this is what is part of what makes this premise so compelling that none of the sequels can replicate is the Discovery. David and I talk a lot about Men in Black as another franchise we're obsessed with. Where none of the sequels can overcome the problem of the reveal of the first time someone finds out, holy shit. This has been going on the whole time.

[Griffin Newman]

Men in Black is a 97 minute movie where the first hour is like, let's explain what the Men in Black are. And then they're like, and now one sequence and we're done. Bye, bye. And you're like, I'm perfectly satisfied.

[David Sims]

But anytime you can build movie premise around hey you. The average civilian had no idea this has been going on for years.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's like that's JFK from you guys. That's how I felt watching jfk. I was like, so the paramilitary forces of the United States and America.

[David Sims]

Amazing. What premise.

[Ben Hosley]

The graphic design is like I think so important to the movie. Oh yeah, it's so good.

[David Sims]

But this is the like Spielberg like Universal way where it's like you would. Would buy. Whereas I think a lot of movies like this, I'm like, that wouldn't be successful.

[Sean Fennessey]

So the book, it's not because that the. The logo is from the film, it's not from the books. Eventually start using the logo.

[Griffin Newman]

But the original book cover was just this.

[Sean Fennessey]

Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is. The silhouette is.

[David Sims]

It's already compelling.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah, it looks good. It looked good at.

[David Sims]

I don't see element of like the font. You tell me the logo, it's also evocative. I love when you get to the merch store, you have that painting shot of the merch store.

[Ben Hosley]

Well, of course you would.

[David Sims]

Well of course I love that. But all the dinosaurs are brightly colored where there's that sense of like, well, kids don't want to buy the realistic looking ones.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[David Sims]

The T Rex has to be purple.

[Griffin Newman]

So they are shown the park, they are impressed and then they all sit down and are like, this is disgusting. You have essentially defied the laws of God.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like what are you doing here? And also there seem to be only like six employees. Is anyone like watching the store essentially? And when you have have lines like Muldoon being like, I told you to put fucking locks on the car. You're like, nobody thought to put locks on the car in the theme park. Like, but you kind of buy it as this is kind of like a half assed operation in some ways because it's all been about making the dinosaurs. We'll figure out the rest later. Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

I once helped launch a startup. It's extremely hard and there's a lot of things that you forget about. It's not easy to just think of everything. And especially when you're making dinosaurs, you gotta think of a lot of stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

And that's. I mean launching the ringer was as hard as cloning dinosaurs from Amber.

[Sean Fennessey]

And now we are dinosaurs.

[David Sims]

But did you ever.

[Sean Fennessey]

It all worked out perfectly.

[David Sims]

Did you ever in the process consider whether or not you should.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think about it every day now actually.

[Griffin Newman]

As you build video ready podcast studios or whatever. Yes, A paddock of sorts. So interspersed with this we do have the scene where Dennis Nedry meets with a character that will later be played by Campbell Scott. Right.

[David Sims]

And in this film is played by a convicted sex offender.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, really?

[David Sims]

That's why he doesn't come back. He.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think that's the only reason why he doesn't go back. He doesn't make a huge impression.

[David Sims]

I'd argue that's the main reason.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I'm just. I imagine they were like, let's get a big shot action here. But okay. Who? Yeah, Cameron.

[David Sims]

But also, we legally can't bring this guy to set.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, boy.

[David Sims]

Bad story.

[Griffin Newman]

But yes, but, yes.

[David Sims]

He's introduced earlier than Ian Malcolm. Than the kids.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Like the. The sort of. This is the wrench in the works.

[David Sims]

This is all the Spielberg shit. Where he just has such a good innate sense of, like, what order audiences need to process information in this place is dangerous. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Alan Grant is not good with kids. Dinosaurs exist.

[David Sims]

But also, like, Nedry's going to die at the halfway point, so we need to introduce him early. You can't just introduce him when the characters would beat him for the first time. You have to start developing this. Laying track. Track for this. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Wayne Knight is phenomenal in the scene with Dodgson. Him saying, Dodgson's here. So funny. Him cackling at the. The spray can is so good. Because that's how I would react to that, where I would just be like, what is this James Bond ass shit you made for this, like, act of subterfuge where I'm basically just putting some embryos in a freezer. But no, it's this, like, adorable. Like, it works. You know, him putting the foam on the.

[David Sims]

You're dead on it. On the piece, Sean, where, like, I saw Space Jam with my dad and my brother, and I was like, holy. People can be like that. Like, I was just like. To me, it was like I had just seen a T. Rex in real life. I was like, wayne Knight. My dad's like, he's in a ton of stuff.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's a human cartoon.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you think Barbasol paid to get their name on the can or.

[David Sims]

They think so.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. It's just like. It's so huge for Barbasol. Huge.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's an interesting question. That was my shaving cream of choice circa this time. Because on Halloween.

[David Sims]

Oh, sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know that we were sort of all shaving creaming each other in the local neighborhood. And then the parents were like, that's gonna wipe the paint off of my house. Don't put that on my House.

[David Sims]

I imagine it's like Reese's Pieces thing where Eminem's was like, we don't want ET Eating M M's. He looks ugly. And then Reese's Pieces laughed all the way to the bank. Like, if they go to Gillette, Gillette's like, what, you're. You're smuggling DNA inside our cam. We don't want that as association. Like, Barbasol's kind of like a little bit more of an old timey brand. They're not hip.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And they get the bump from this.

[Griffin Newman]

I just feel like it speaks well of them that their product still works with embryos incredibly well. And then it's really just what it's one night, the rest of the movie. Right. It's like Nedry fucks up the park in the evening. I think another bit of brilliant Wayne Nitery is his seething arrogance when he's sitting there at his console and he's like, no one could do what I have done. Two million lines of code or whatever. And then his pathetic performance is like, I'm just not going out to. Going to the vending machine to. Yeah, don't. Don't mind if some things turn off and I'll see you guys later.

[Ben Hosley]

Normal right now, just like making sure you guys know clearly.

[Griffin Newman]

Normal. Like, I hate this man. I wish him to stop speaking.

[David Sims]

Also, he's. The hubris is hitting like a day too early.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

He should start feeling this cocky after he's sold the embryos.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[David Sims]

But he's already just sort of like, I'm the master of the universe.

[Sean Fennessey]

But to get out and do what he needs to do, he needs to shut down the security in the entire park.

[Griffin Newman]

Just going to have to go where.

[Sean Fennessey]

There'S just no way to get out. You can just like turn off one door.

[Griffin Newman]

You'd think he could just turn off one door.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is a dinosaur park.

[David Sims]

This is the hubris. He's not thinking through things clearly. He's just convinced that he can pull it off.

[Ben Hosley]

What is his. Like, if it were to go successfully, how is he supposed to hand it off to the guy at the boat and then get back to his desk in 18 minutes?

[Griffin Newman]

He's. That he's not getting on the boat. Right. He's just making a handoff to the boat.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And I guess he then gets a million and a half, right? That's the number.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like a good amount of money, but it's like he should have asked.

[David Sims]

For a lot more, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's probably worth billions as corporate.

[Sean Fennessey]

World class corporate espionage too. Like a huge. I don't know if it's illegal in Costa Rica, but I mean, isn't he.

[Griffin Newman]

Going to prison for like, probably. I mean, but also isn't what they're doing illegal?

[Sean Fennessey]

Like, this is the other question.

[David Sims]

I mean, this is why I asked if who, who was on your supporting actor ballot because like, yeah, there's an argument for the huge choice and the obvious choice and the undeniable choice. In a lot of ways, Wayne Knight is so fucking effective in this movie. And in a way where you're just like, if he's 10 degrees smaller, it's not popping in the same way. And if he's 10 degrees bigger, it like unbalances the whole film, right. It might even be a matter of like 2 degrees in either direction and he's off. And you're right, he plays the balance. All the arcs of like, you're just.

[Griffin Newman]

He probably only has whatever, 10 minutes in the movie. It's, it's just a really, it's a Dion Waiters esque performance. I'm just going to keep doing rewatchable terminology. But everyone in this movie is Dion Waiters ing it up, right? Even BD Wong. Sure. He really just gets the one scene right.

[David Sims]

Fucking that scene is so powerful.

[Sean Fennessey]

He makes a huge impression.

[Griffin Newman]

He makes a huge impression because you're like, this seems like a good person and he seems to be almost just kind of doing this out of love. Like the hatching scene is this lovely scene, right? And it's just, you're like, this is a huge mistake. And of course the best part being they have hatched a velociraptor, right? Where they're like, so what is this cute little thing? And it's like God's perfect killing machine and we're going to start feeding it so it gets big.

[David Sims]

He makes such a huge impression that Trevorrow decides to make him the Emperor Palpatine. Obi Wan Kenobi of his trilogy. They can't decide which one it is. They keep going back and forth.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's partly that Beanie Wong sort of just had such a long impressive career, right? Like, and like, so by the time the legacy was come around, it's like, that's a, that's a fucking vein to tap. Bring back BD Wong. Right?

[David Sims]

Well, I think, I think the other part of it, I think there's some just sort of hard math of it of like, okay, we bring back one legacy character, right? Like Malcolm Sattler and, and Grant all Did sequels. Attenborough's dead. Right. Like, Nedry's dead canonically within the film.

[Griffin Newman]

As is Sam Jackson. The kids, like, no one's going to recognize. Right?

[David Sims]

You're like, by default, I guess BD Wong is the most powerful person to bring back.

[Griffin Newman]

You're right. And then, of course, then they brought back the real stars. Locusts.

[David Sims]

Love those locusts.

[Griffin Newman]

Love those locusts. Yeah. And. But, you know, the film's perfectly structured, in my opinion, in that you are getting all of this explanation in the middle of Spielbergian wonder, the triceratops, the brachiosaurus, the egg hatching and all that.

[David Sims]

He's just got, like, such a good, like, eye on the. On the clock of, like, without feeling. Schematic of, like, okay, every 10 minutes there has to be awe.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

It doesn't feel as, like, diagrammed as that.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Which, again, not to keep bringing up the fucking Jurassic World, but those movies have that problem. The classic MCU thing of just like, yeah, it's been 20 minutes. Time for. Time for an action sequence.

[David Sims]

But also just the feeling of, like, why is it from can in this movie? Like, what are we accomplishing by including his character? He gets killed off and you're just like, I. This felt like a waste of time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

He doesn't really add anything to the narrative. Those movies are setting up so many things where you're like, I don't know if this is seeding for future films or these are the vestiges of a previous draft or what. And this movie, it's what you said. Cap came in and was just like, focus it nice. Narrow it down.

[Griffin Newman]

And what I love about. So the. Everything pops off while they are on the T Rex tour.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And I love that everyone is on the T Rex tour. They are all awed by the majesty of the science. They are not that interested in the park.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Like, they're actually here to evaluate a theme park.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

In a way. And he's like, take the ride. And the ride sucks. And they're all just sitting in the car and the movie's energy is starting to be like, what's going to. You know, are we going to get to something? Right. Like, it's perfectly timed within the structure of the movie for them to finally. For shit to get real.

[David Sims]

The perfect storm of all these elements colliding at the same time, namely a storm happening at the same time that Nedry is pulling his shit.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's everyone on the beach at Amity Island. That's what it is. We've all Gone to the beach. We know something's going to happen.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And the T. Rex shows up and it is the most, like, consequentially, like. It's just like the expectations for the T. Rex could not be higher in this movie and the movie, like, surpasses them by so much.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

I was convulsing in my chair at 11 years old. I couldn't believe how cool it was.

[Griffin Newman]

Is there anything like that since Jurassic Park? I'm fucking serious.

[Sean Fennessey]

Avatar, legitimately, when I. The first time. I've told this story many times before. The first time I saw Avatar.

[Griffin Newman]

Hell yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

At the Lincoln center center. Amc. And I. My jaw was on the floor. Look, on the floor.

[David Sims]

We. We Stan. Avatar in this house. We love Avatar. I don't think there's.

[Griffin Newman]

There's not one thing in Avatar.

[David Sims]

It's not the one thing.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, as much as I have respect for the mighty Ikron, of course, and to RUK Mekto.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think as soon as we get into that first night sequence.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, I love it.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're not.

[Griffin Newman]

Titanic is similar in terms of like, Titanic. When to me, the most, like, the most, like. I can't believe I'm seeing this moment in Titanic. Is the water through the dome where you're just like. That's real water.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like those people are being drowned in 1 billion gallons of water.

[David Sims]

Yes. I agree with you that, like Lord.

[Griffin Newman]

Of the Rings is sort of like maybe the Balrog, but like, there's not quite anything like this.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a great movie moment, but it doesn't feel the same.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's the one. And what's incredible about it is they basically pulled off the awe inspiring, positive, romantic version of this moment with the reveal of the breath Brachiosaurus and like nailed that. And then for the second time, like 45 minutes later, they do the inverse of that, which is like, what is the ultimate terror? I. I don't. I don't think there's.

[Griffin Newman]

He's so majestic.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

She. She's so majestic. The T. Rex. And yet in the entire sequence, you're also just like, this is completely out of control. This is an animal.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Like, and the way it behaves is so perfect where it's just. Where it bites the underside of the car. Right. Like, it's like, you know, like things like that where you're just like. Right. This is. They have no control over this. Like, it's just rampaging around like any animal would. It looks like a puppy in a way.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wasn't there wasn't one of the key T. Rex facts that I learned as a kid, that they have small brains, that they're not smart, that there are smart dinosaurs in this world, but T Rexes, while great killers, are intelligent.

[Griffin Newman]

I think there's tons of debate over this now, but at the time, that's what we learned, that they were stupid.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

So that. That animal instinct that you're talking. Talking about, where, like, it's actually not good at hunting down all of this raw flesh that is served into it. Yeah.

[David Sims]

But that's what's scary about it too, is you're like, you can't pathologize this thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Right. But you kind of love it. The raptors. You're like, I'm terrified of those things. Get them out of here. Shoot them in the head. Which is why world making the choice of, like, they're our friends now was kind of a bold one in a way. But then is also just kind of annoying to me.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Because I just want them to be the xenomorph. Like, if there's ever the fucking Alien movie where there's. There's someone who's like, I have taken. Tamed an alien. I'm gonna be so mad.

[David Sims]

It's. I would say it is inevitable.

[Griffin Newman]

It feels inevitable. Right. One day there'll be some. It'll do the walking dead thing if someone's got an alien on a chain.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Sean Fennessey]

Romulus. Yay or nay?

[Griffin Newman]

Didn't see. I had twins, bro.

[David Sims]

I give. I. I give it an Okay. I put it right in the middle. I had a good time while watching it.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm a soft yay.

[David Sims]

I'm a. I'm a soft yay. The softest of. Yay.

[Sean Fennessey]

Romula.

[Ben Hosley]

I did not. I don't even have a good excuse. I just was kind of like, well, get to it.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's some Ben stuff in it. For sure.

[David Sims]

There's some real Ben.

[Griffin Newman]

It's gotta be gooey.

[Ben Hosley]

I'm sure there's chains.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, if Fede Alvarez, like, remade Kate and Leopold, it would be, like, full of goo. Like, it'd be like, where'd all this goo come from? He's like an elf.

[David Sims]

If he remains sleepless in Seattle, it would be full of really dark. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

This chamber.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, boy.

[Ben Hosley]

I kind of love how Jurassic park is a little gross.

[Griffin Newman]

It is very gross.

[Ben Hosley]

I like how it's sweaty.

[Griffin Newman]

Sweaty. Rainy, gooey, slimy, snotty dinosaurs easing on kids. Big, big poop diamonds, you know?

[David Sims]

Yeah. Even that is just like It's a movie that goes out of its way to not blarp its characters. To take back an old term in our terminology. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, this movie is no Lost in Space, to be clear, of course.

[David Sims]

But you gotta, like, split up the crew into a couple little smaller teams. I'm just like, she needs to stay and focus on the poop is such a good way to split her off to be able to have splinter units. That doesn't feel like the movie's disregard.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I think she has. I mean, people. She has less of an arc. But obviously Allen's is really the only arc because Malcolm gets pseudo killed off. Yeah. I mean, the movie doesn't actually kill him off, but it's sort of like, okay, bye, Ian.

[Sean Fennessey]

He just gets to be the vocal conscious.

[Griffin Newman]

He's just like, I was right.

[David Sims]

You know, like, she's the one who's, like, going out and actually facing shit. Like, she, in a lot of ways is the most conventional action hero of the movie because Malcolm's laid up for the second half and Grant's primary thing is keeping the kids safe. She's, like, going out and solving.

[Sean Fennessey]

Her limp is burned into my mind. You know, her dragging her leg, running towards Sam Neil, you know, I mean, and dur.

[Griffin Newman]

Doing that face that she does in every David lynch movie, the sort of strained face, like, is perfect. I. The stuff with Allan and the kids, I feel like at the time critics were like, warm in love with this movie, but. Right. It's part of their. Like, I saw Hook. This guy is cooked, man. He can't help with this.

[David Sims]

Everyone was like, this is better than Hook. But, like, he's been domesticated. He'll never make a movie as nasty as Jaws again. Raiders has, like, more grit and edge, 100%.

[Griffin Newman]

Even ET has this sort of darker energy to it, even though it's about kids and stuff. And like, I watch this stuff now and the stuff with the kids, I think is very, very effective because the kids are not really annoying. Ariana Richards does a great scream and like, yes, okay. It's a little annoying when she says it's a UNIX system. I mean, it's an awesome moment. It's like a meme now.

[Sean Fennessey]

Very hacker forward film. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

It's really funny at the moment where you're like, oh, they're giving her something to do. Great. But like, Mazzello saying he threw up.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is always gets me because there's a T. Rex. He doesn't need to explain why he threw up, but it's such a Vulnerable kid thing to do. He's embarrassed. No, I mean and like Alan being like that's fine, it's okay. Like it's such a. It's like a moment you would have it like a daycare but it's like after a T. Rex knocked a jeep over a cliff.

[David Sims]

I talk a lot about time I spent with my little cousin who I love is a great kid. And it was just startling to watch this movie and be like, man, they really nailed this age group.

[Griffin Newman]

What that kid is like when I.

[David Sims]

Hang out with him and he just wants to tell me facts that he's just learned or ask me questions about the facts he hasn't got an answer to yet. You know, like we have a shared interest. Do you know what I know about dinosaurs and what do you know about dinosaurs that I don't know?

[Sean Fennessey]

My naturalistic way. He loves dinosaurs and every time I see him, here's new favorite that's to know about it.

[Griffin Newman]

That's just going to be a golden error for me as a dad because I have so much useless in my.

[David Sims]

I think I like hanging out with this nine year old.

[Griffin Newman]

I know why you.

[David Sims]

He's like, who's Dr. Doom? And I'm like, who's Dr. Doom, let's go.

[Griffin Newman]

But I think the stuff with the kid, mostly kids, mostly works and it's also not a huge part of the movie. You have this, the tree sequence which is nice and you have the fence sequence which is, you know, intense, scary. Right? Yeah, that.

[Sean Fennessey]

The other thing too I think related to the critics point that you were making is historically critics who are often older, usually in the back half of their life, if they are of some stature in the culture, are terrible on horror. And this is a horror movie, you know, it has all the hallmarks of a horror movie structurally, all the big scare moments. It is a very high minded science fiction adventure movie, but it's a roller coaster movie. But at its heart it's horror. And middle aged critics stink on horror. They almost always do. I'm very conscious of this as I get into that phase of my life because you've lost a kind of essence of what appeals to young people who love to feel this way. And this is a movie made for young people to feel, make them excited and make them understand like the way you felt when you were six when you discovered dinosaurs, that you could still have that when you're 60 and John Hammond. It's like a brilliant fusion. So I don't, I tend to not take, take criticism of deep genre Very seriously. No matter when it's time around.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, unless you're looking in, like, Fangoria or whatever, you know, like, where there were appreciators of genre as it came, right? Like, yeah, no, I mean, Pauline Kale, like, loved Spielberg. We'll.

[David Sims]

We'll talk about one of his earliest champions.

[Griffin Newman]

And then, like, when Raiders comes out, she's like, he's become this machine guy. Like, I hate this. This is just a theme park now. And there's no. It's so funny to read her Raiders review where she's just like, there's no exhilaration in it. And you're like, it' Raiders at the lodge. It's built for exhilarating.

[Sean Fennessey]

The most exhilarating ride of the year.

[Griffin Newman]

Are you out of your mind, Paul?

[David Sims]

Even though you see those reviews from the time of Raiders, they had to, like, fucking nominate for Best Picture. They were like, we can't deny this. Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Whereas this time they could. Because of Schindler's List.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

If there isn't Schindler's List, did they have to nominate this movie?

[Sean Fennessey]

That's a great question.

[David Sims]

I would contend, yes. In the way that, like, there were the sort of undeniables, like Beauty and the Beast, where you're just like, you know what? This is a seismic enough moment and film culture and like, the. The audience has made their. Their opinion heard. I do think that gets nominated for Best Picture if Schindler isn't in the same year and the Academy is like, great. Spielberg has made this easy for us.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what?

[David Sims]

We get to split him in half.

[Griffin Newman]

Let me throw the question to the two of you, and Ben can answer it, too. And we'll talk about Schindler's List next week on Blank Check. Obviously. Do you have this over Schindler? You're doing a 1993 top 10. You're a critic. Do your top 10. I mean, obviously you can also just do your Spielberg.

[Sean Fennessey]

How old a critic am I?

[Griffin Newman]

You know, you're Sean Fenn. I'm saying, like, do a. I mean.

[Sean Fennessey]

I like this film more than Schindler's List, so do. I certainly understand the magnitude and importance of Schindler's List. Not to just a Spielberg, but to the history of. You know, to world history.

[David Sims]

It's one of the most watchable movies ever made. And Schindler is a movie you have to prep yourself for.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I'm going to argue on that episode. One of the things about Schindler's List that's kind of crazy is how Fucking very watchable.

[David Sims]

But it is a movie that you have to be like, okay, I know.

[Griffin Newman]

You'Re not just going to be like, should we do shoot 45 minutes of Schindler? Like. Yeah, no, no, for sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

The interesting thing about that Oscar question, whether this movie would be nominated is that this is the year that the Fugitive was nominated, which is. That is the same exact thing that you're talking about where it's like, this is pure and they're Hollywood entertainment and it's so good. We cannot not recognize.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. How do we not recognize just the most robust kind of Hollywood filmmaking?

[David Sims]

But like Butterfly Effect, if Schindler comes out the following year, then I think Jurassic gets Fugitives nom in that spot.

[Sean Fennessey]

I fully agree.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

I think so.

[David Sims]

I think, I mean, we'll get to our final rankings. I think I put Schindler above this, but I put ET And Jaws and maybe Close Encounters as well above Schindler.

[Sean Fennessey]

I would agree that those movies are above Jurassic park for me in the sort of like faux objective point of view. It's impossible for me to disentangle my relationship to movies with Jurassic Park. It's impossible.

[Griffin Newman]

But I think I do have Raiders and Jaws over Jurassic, Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

Jaws, yes. Raiders.

[David Sims]

But I do think as time goes on.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, maybe you're right for me.

[Sean Fennessey]

For me.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I don't. Well, I don't know. I don't know. You know what? I'll redo my list.

[Sean Fennessey]

And we're not even talking about AI like, there's a fancy.

[Griffin Newman]

AI is my number one.

[David Sims]

Yeah. So, you know, we did this bifurcated thing where we covered everything from Lost World to. At that point, what was the ending point? Bfg. We've covered everything else that's come out since then. There's a catch up episode in that ranking. You put AI number one.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it's my number one.

[David Sims]

And I can't remember if I put AI number one or number two. I might have put Catch number one.

[Griffin Newman]

You love Catch.

[David Sims]

But I also saw AI again recently. Was playing at Film Forum. And I'm like, this is.

[Griffin Newman]

I've seen AI so many times. It was such a big movie for me as a teenager, which is why I'm weird and stupid.

[David Sims]

Huge for me.

[Sean Fennessey]

When I came, you put.

[Ben Hosley]

You both put A.I.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

At number one.

[David Sims]

I think you know what the difference is? We both put AI at number one. I think you said AI is your favorite Spielberg, period.

[Griffin Newman]

It's my favorite Spielberg, period. What did I have at number two? Ben?

[Ben Hosley]

Minority Report justifies Saving Private Ryan. Catch me if you can. And Griffin, your is number two is catch me if you can.

[Griffin Newman]

3. Bridge.

[David Sims]

Hell yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

4.

[Ben Hosley]

Tintin.

[David Sims]

5.

[Griffin Newman]

My thing is that knows for a good story, I now Lincoln is only higher.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Lincoln is pure, pure drugs to me.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Just like every time I watch that movie, I am like, this is molten ecstasy. I love this so much as Lincoln is like arguing with his wife over their dead son. I'm just like, yes. Our son like, being like, give me a fourth blanket. It's cold in here.

[Sean Fennessey]

In 2022, after West Side Story, we did a top five Spielberg episode. And my top five was it was me and Amanda and Joanna. And it was five was Minority Report, four was Raiders, three was Jurassic park, two was AI and one was Jaws.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Sean Fennessey]

Amanda and Joanna both had Jurassic park at number one.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I think that's. That's for our generation. It is the Spielberg movie.

[David Sims]

Yeah, right. It is.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think so.

[Griffin Newman]

For the millennials.

[David Sims]

That's the funny thing. You read the reviews.

[Griffin Newman]

I know you're sort of a cuspy millennial.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm still millennial, but I have some Gen X traits.

[David Sims]

You had elder saltzman. Excuse me, Elder statesman. Critics like Pauline Kale.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure. Who has retired at this point. I think, Yeah.

[David Sims]

I was saying had discovered Spielberg as an adult and were commenting on the later periods of Spielberg's career as an adult. Right, right. But the time this movie is coming out, you have a lot of critics who grew up on Jaws and are now going like, well, it's fun, but it's no Jaws.

[Griffin Newman]

There was a lot of feel corporateness of this movie.

[David Sims]

And yeah, they were like, this feels corporate. This feels diagram. This feels kind of broad.

[Sean Fennessey]

Didn't break for the most corporate tie ins.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It's the beginning of. Not the beginning, but it's right at the middle, I guess, of all right. Yeah.

[David Sims]

This is sort of. This movie feels strategic.

[Griffin Newman]

This is an entire lifestyle experience. Is this movie coming out this summer?

[David Sims]

Right. And their argument was none of this has the stickiness and depth of Jaws, which works so well as a character piece in a drama. And I'm like, you could dress up as any of the nine human leads of Jurassic park for Halloween and people would know who you are now.

[Griffin Newman]

They would.

[David Sims]

You like. And the costuming is not like super broad.

[Griffin Newman]

But you're right. Like Hammond. Ellie. Yeah.

[David Sims]

I've talked about this with the podcast the Ride guys, where we're like, there's all this Jurassic. It's wild. They don't have people walking around dressed like Sam Neill. Because people would lose their fucking minds.

[Sean Fennessey]

A good point.

[David Sims]

Just in the blue shirt that hard.

[Sean Fennessey]

No, it's very Galaxy's Edge style thing. Yeah, that would work, man.

[Griffin Newman]

Remember Bridges Spies?

[David Sims]

Do you remember?

[Griffin Newman]

Absolute, absolute jack of a movie? So good.

[David Sims]

Unbelievable.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you like Bridge of Spies? Of course.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean he's.

[Griffin Newman]

He doesn't. He's completely.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's still.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

As powerful as ever. In my opinion. West side Story in Fableman's is. It's obscene how good those movies are for where he is in his life.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It is just the thing too of like everyone talks about was I was watching Top. What was that sound?

[Griffin Newman]

Don't know.

[David Sims]

That sounded like it. A ghost in the walls. Did it not?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know.

[Sean Fennessey]

Spielberg is listening.

[David Sims]

Was that a pipe thing?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, probably. Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

I. I don't know.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know.

[Sean Fennessey]

John Hammond's spirit calling out to us create once more.

[David Sims]

Five comedy points. David. Here's the thing about hair. It's much more than what you see when you look in the mirror.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, interesting, interesting. Go on.

[David Sims]

This is a common misconception that hair is purely exclusively a thing you see when you look in the mirror.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

In fact, no. It is a thing that is on your person.

[Ben Hosley]

Sure.

[David Sims]

At all times. It doesn't just exist in some shadow mirror realm. But also there are a lot of factors that goes into the health of your hair, how it's looking, from stress to nutrition to hormones to lifestyle. So many internal factors affect what you see on the outside which is then reflected in a mirror.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Some people think that the mirror is something else. They're like a window. With neutrophil science backed whole body approach, you nourish growth from within and achieve your best hair which then ultimately will show up in the mirror.

[Griffin Newman]

Right now it's not exclusively neutrophil. It's a physician formulated thing. It's got 100 drug free ingredients. Ingredients supports healthy hair growth. I take it daily within targeting key root causes of thinning, stress hormones, aging, nutrition, lifestyle and metabolism. Wow. A lot of those are on the Griffin checklist.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I'm trying to.

[Griffin Newman]

Through whole body health.

[David Sims]

I'm trying. Well, this is the thing, right? It's a. It's a. It's a kind of natural, easy, simple thing to take.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. They clinically test their final formulations to ensure their efficacy in clinical study. Separate 72% of men saw more scalp coverage after taking Nutrafol men hair growth supplement for six months and 86% of women saw improved hair growth after Taking the Nutriful Women hair growth supplement for six months.

[David Sims]

I'm just trying to make my life less like one of the most mediocre and perplexing Stephen King adaptations of the early 90s.

[Griffin Newman]

Thinner.

[David Sims]

Yep. And I'm trying to make it more like probably off the top of my head, John Lithgow's best family comedy of.

[Griffin Newman]

The 80s, Harry and the Hendersons.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I'd like to meet Harrier and also maybe meet some Hendersons if you know of any.

[Griffin Newman]

Be more Hendersony.

[David Sims]

Yeah, what I like is that Neutral knows that hair loss and thinning, there's no one size fits all approach. So they got multiple formulas tailored to different lifestyles for men and women. Lifestyle factors such as plant based lifestyle. Just get what you need.

[Griffin Newman]

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[David Sims]

And if you're a Henderson who listens to this podcast, maybe slide into my DMs. I was watching a bunch of videos of Tom Hanks speaking at Oxford.

[Sean Fennessey]

Sure.

[David Sims]

This went viral a couple years ago, maybe a year or two ago. I, I just went deep onto this and talking to students and asking questions and whatever. And he was talking about how much for him, he is like a director actor. And it's all about the different collaborations. And there are multiple people he's worked with multiple times, but they have very different styles and he likes that flexibility and whatever. And they were like, what's it like working with Spielberg? And he was like, here's like the defining story of working with Spielberg is like on the post, I had done like four movies with him already at that point or whatever. A lot of the other actors were really nervous about working with him. The script was so like word dense and so precise and accurate that we had to get it right. And the actors were like, tom, can we please do a rehearsal and work on this? And it was one of the scenes where like 10 of the primary actors in the Washington Post office are all like fighting back and forth and whatever. And he was like, sure, I'll be like sort of the team captain and I'll help run all of this. And they work it and they get it word perfect and they feel good about the rhythm because he's like, steven expects you to just show up having done your work. He's not going to hold your hand. You got to show up prepared. And they get to set and Spielberg's like, you know what might be interesting is if the shot is the man carrying the package with the Pentagon papers and we track him over to the desk and he drops it off and the entire thing they had worked for like two days. None of them are in focus on camera at any point. He shot the entire sequence in one shot. None of them are ever in focus. And he's like, that's the thing with Spielberg is he is like the most incredible like multi dimensional problem solver of. He's just like a genius. It's innate where he gets there. And he's like, what's the most important thing? What is the thing I need to convey in this scene? Whether it's information or feeling.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, then also he just knows how to visually think about, about things totally in a very, very innovative way. Like, even at his advanced age, it's not like he's Clint Eastwood, but he's an older man.

[David Sims]

He's still kind of unparalleled at that.

[Griffin Newman]

There's so much verve to something like west side Story, like. And like it would just be so easy for him to phone some of these movies in. And sometimes he does and it's called the bfg and most of the times he does.

[Sean Fennessey]

Not very rare though. And. And you know, as I know you can attest, father of 100 children. I'm the father of just one child. And I'm like, I need a sandwich and a nap most of the day.

[Griffin Newman]

I need sleepy now, obviously. Look, I had this conversation with my dear pal Caitlin about the Mets, about Lindor after his daughter was born. Was like playing baseball the next day. And she's like, that's crazy.

[Sean Fennessey]

He's an alien.

[Griffin Newman]

He's an alien. But I'm also like, yes, but of course he's also a wealthy athlete. He has a lot of help. He can get support for his family.

[David Sims]

You did the trap episode five days after your twins were born.

[Griffin Newman]

I Did. That's breaking news that should be going.

[David Sims]

To the hall of Fame.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, that was. That was. But that was hard.

[David Sims]

That was hard.

[Griffin Newman]

But I sound okay on it.

[Sean Fennessey]

But you also had also been training for that episode. That is six months writing the profile your whole life. Most episodes don't get that level of preparation.

[Griffin Newman]

The stress of, like, will I finish that article and see Trap and all that stuff as my. Like.

[David Sims]

Anyway, we knew Trap was so close to do day.

[Griffin Newman]

Really close.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's almost like you plan it.

[David Sims]

Yeah. God.

[Griffin Newman]

The butcher.

[David Sims]

Finish your point. I'm sorry, I don't remember. He's a talking about Mets, the guy who played after.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, no. I had. There's no point. I. We were just. I was just saying, like, Steven Spielberg has. He has the resources at least to be a parent with lots of support, one assumes.

[David Sims]

Oh, totally.

[Griffin Newman]

He's not going home and being, you know, changing every diaper. Maybe he is.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe Spielberg, he's also just gotten more irons on the fire in his world than we do. You know, they'll have podcast people who are having a very calm, quiet experience in a quiet room like here. Hundreds of people are reliant upon him every day.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he, like, still kind of moves mountains with his every word.

[Griffin Newman]

It sure seems that way. And something like the Post is a movie, obviously, that came together, like, immediately because Spielberg decided, like, I think I'll do this right now. Like. Right. Like, some of his movies take a long time to get made.

[David Sims]

I mean, this post fable period, just do it. Or even to a certain degree, post west side story of, like, him slowing way down.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Taking long gaps. Now he's finally committed to a new movie.

[Griffin Newman]

He's doing the David Kep movie.

[David Sims]

Right. But that, on paper, sounds like a little bit more of a classical Spielberg movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It does kind of sound like him being like, you know, I didn't do an event movie for the 2000s yet.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Fuck it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Why don't I. I could not be more excited.

[Griffin Newman]

I couldn't either. I mean, so for saying, like, Jaws. Is that in the 70s, it's Josh O'Connor. And look the guy casts. I forget who the film.

[David Sims]

Emily Blunt.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is it Emily. Emily Blunt. Joshua Khan. Oh, my God.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, get out.

[David Sims]

There's someone else good in that. Oh, Coleman Domingo.

[Sean Fennessey]

Keep going. This is a wonderful thing.

[Griffin Newman]

If you're just. If you're just thinking of this kind of movie. Right. So in the 70s, it's Jaws. In the 80s, it's Raiders. In the 90s, it's it's Jurassic Park.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, I'm not even mentioning close encounters or et like other gigantic, you know, like in the two 2000s. Is it minority Report? Is that the closest? Or is it War of the World?

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's actually Catch Me.

[Griffin Newman]

Catch Me if you can. It's kind of legacy actually is Catch Me if youf can.

[Sean Fennessey]

Because that was a. It's not the same kind of genre thing that we're talking about, but it is in a way. It's kind of like a mouse hunt movie. And it was a huge hit, but.

[David Sims]

Sure was a huge hit. But that's the reason why we had this idea to just do the back half of Spielberg years ago was like his post Oscar career is fascinating. And the choices he makes when he feels like he's been validated at the highest echelons. What does he have to prove anymore? And like this notion in the early 2000s of oh My God, Tom Cruise and Spielberg are gonna work together. That's gonna be the biggest movie of all time. The two ultimate crowd pleasers. And they make two movies that are like dark and haunted.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And War of the Worlds did not underperform, but Minority Report kind of did.

[David Sims]

They both were hits.

[Griffin Newman]

But I mean, Minority Report Report is in my opinion, like his second best movie ever. I love that movie.

[David Sims]

Death, AI, Minority Report, War of the Worlds. On paper, like these classic Spielberg movie incoming, all three movies rule. But it definitely felt like they were received a little bit. Like this is less fun than I thought it would be.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, 100%. That's what's fascinating about his post. 911 especially. Yeah. He becomes tinged with darkness. And by the time then he does Tintin and Warhorse and you're like, oh, he's sort of doing more of an old boy adventure thing. But Warhorse is quite a sad movie.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Tintin is not. And then when he does Ready Player One, that movie's a hit like it was. It was an unambiguous hit, but it was kind of the first time it felt like, eh. I think people are more interested in a different kind of product at this level now. Right.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like that movie went over fine.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But by that point it's like, nah, people are seeing the superhero things and like that. That's now the sort of definitive version.

[David Sims]

And Spielberg and Lucas are doing interviews and saying like, this whole thing's gotten out of control. The blockbusters are going to collapse. The studios are like cruising for bruising.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And of course he was right.

[David Sims]

He was right. You look at Those quotes, and they're insane. Where he's like, the problem is they make 200, like 10, $200 million a year. And when three of those start bombing in a year, they're fucked. They're fucked. They can get away with one bombing per year.

[Griffin Newman]

But what you should do is. And again, I know this movie, this episode's coming out six months from now or whatever, but, like, what you should do is make a $200 million courthouse musical.

[David Sims]

Yeah. That's money well spent.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is the story of Warner Brothers in 2024. You know, this is the summer of Furiosa and Horizon. And, you know, Joker Defolia did.

[David Sims]

It's what they have. They had Beetlejuice, which was like an undeniable home run for them and made for, like, a reasonable budget. And then they made so few films. You look at, like, Furiosa being a thing that was largely funded by, like, you know, Village Roadshow and, like, Australian film industry. And then, like, Horizon was a pickup for them. Trap was, like a negative pickup for them. And then Joker was one of the only movies that they really put all their muscle behind and built themselves. Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

After mostly selling out on Joker, people forget that Warner Brothers divested itself of a lot of Joker because they didn't believe in that movie and then made a billion dollars anyway. And so for Joker 2, they were all in. And then it was a pile of dogshit nobody wanted to see.

[David Sims]

I want to tell the story quickly.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. We should talk about the end of Jurassic Park. But it should.

[David Sims]

We should. This is a little link to the end of Jurassic Park. Talking about, like, Spielberg being a next level problem solver. He's making this movie around, like, historic hurricanes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Crazy hurricanes hitting right.

[David Sims]

They're losing days, having to, like, evacuate. And I think at certain points they lost sets entirely. And we're just like, well, I guess we just have to move on. We can't get any more days out of that location or whatever it was. But there's the story of him just trying to figure out how to get as much footage as he could. What's the latest point we can safely evacuate without wanting to put anyone's life in danger. I think being conscious of, like, I can't be John Hammond, but how do I squeeze as much out of this safely? And so, like, he's filming while sending Kathleen Kennedy to figure out how to get people off the island onto a safer place. And she, like, finds her way to Honolulu, gets to the airport, is trying to find anyone who can transport the amount of people they still have. And she flags down a guy and is like, you. You have like a plane. Can you fly me out? Wait a second. You look familiar, don't you? And he was the fucking guy who played Jock Lindsay in Raiders of the Lost Ark, right? A man who was a real life pilot because they need him to fucking fly a plane on camera. And then he gets two lines of dialogue. And he was like, oh, yeah, no, of course I'll fly you out.

[Griffin Newman]

Lovely.

[David Sims]

You took care of me, Kathy.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It's just crazy to think of, like, Jock Lindsay flying out, the entire cast of Jurassic Park 2 safet almost mirroring the end of this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It feels like the end of the movie, right?

[Sean Fennessey]

It's weird that a movie like this that is so clearly at the absolute center of culture would have an imperiled production. You'd think that they would have just built a new sound stage that could have replicated.

[Griffin Newman]

There was nothing like that.

[Sean Fennessey]

I know, I know.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm watching Spielberg making a dinosaur movie. It's like, yeah, okay, buddy, but try to keep the budget under 70 mil.

[David Sims]

Thinking this while watching it where it's like, oh, this is like as big of a budget we give, but there are limits. You know, you read quotes and you're just like, no movie will ever cost $200 million. Was something people were saying in the early 2000.

[Griffin Newman]

Like George Lucas being like, fuck it, I do Phantom Menace. Basically self funding it with merch sales. Like, that was, that's the beginning of like, okay, like, I guess people are writing blank checks to themselves.

[David Sims]

But yeah, exactly. Like, this is still an era where the most powerful person in Hollywood making the most, like, slam dunk block premise and being like, responsible with his days.

[Griffin Newman]

And his budget is like, can I have Kurt Russell? And they're like, kurt Russell's gonna cost a million dollars. Right.

[David Sims]

They're like, if you get Kurt Russell, you have to lose 20 shots of dinosaurs.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, right. We're, we're, we're cutting one of those Raptors. Sorry, buddy.

[David Sims]

And if you lose a location or you lose days, then you're like, I guess we cut out like Samuel L. Jackson's death scene. And he's really smart about like, okay, what's the best, most effective way to make, like a gift out of a mistake? How do you make it more impactful that you don't see him die? And that's revealed later. He's still working within, like, boxing himself into corners.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Or kitchen counters. Should we talk about rafters in the kitchen?

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Cool sequence.

[David Sims]

Here's a take I had.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, we have largely avoided this, but, like, it is hard to talk about Jurassic park in some ways where you're like, the rafters in the kitchen is a really effective and terrifying sequence.

[Sean Fennessey]

I just find myself saying, like, this was cool. Like a lot of the time watching it. This is the mirrored. You know, when she's hiding in the sliding doors in the mirrored shot and where the raptor runs right into. I'm just like, that's just cool. The raptor idea for a movie shot.

[Griffin Newman]

And falling over too is so perfect. You're like. The weird clumsiness of them is sort of terrifying in a way. And the way they're. You can hear their claws on the metal where you're just like. Again, you're like, this is wrong. A raptor shouldn't be in a kitchen. Right? Raptors belong in 65 million years ago.

[David Sims]

Well, excuse me, David, anyone can cook. Don't say a raptor shouldn't be in a kitchen.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's my gusto even just explaining. Well, like, unless they can open doors and then hard cut to a door handle opening, you know, like the most dumb shit. But effective, emotionally engaging filmmaking. So brilliant.

[David Sims]

Here was a thought I had while watching it this time. And I don't mean to put the two franchises on the same level or. Or put any of those films on the level of this film in particular, but I was watching it and I was just like this sort of like haunted. Haunted house, like pressure cooker the dinosaurs here, the person's here hanging on the silence of. As you said, like the sounds of the claw tapping and the feel of like the Rapture bar. Yeah, yeah, right. That is a thing that like, you know, Lost World nails in that one sequence dangling over the cliff. But it's the most super sized version of it. And it feels like the later films don't even try to really emulate. It's become an entirely different thing. I do think it's kind of this secret juice to the quiet place movies is they are the best modern evocations of what works so well in Jurassic. Of just like tight cast, good actors. You characterize them well. And it's just about like, you know how these creatures work. You put them in long. Sort of like one of my big.

[Griffin Newman]

Problems with that franchise, which I think is like a solid. All of those movies are watchable.

[David Sims]

I agree.

[Sean Fennessey]

I like all. I'm a big defender of that series in part because of what Griffin is saying.

[David Sims]

I don't Think any of them are masterpieces, but that is why they work.

[Griffin Newman]

They're good because of the humans. I find the monsters boring and kind of boring to look at. I. I like how they work is fine.

[David Sims]

But they're also trying to do the same Jurassic park thing of, like, don't show them too much. Like, show some restraint. Don't answer too much.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a good example of, like, what a digitally created creature, its limitations. Because if there was a practical version of that creature in those movies, it actually would be more effective. Even though they're moving fast.

[Griffin Newman]

More effective. It would be so cool. And the fact that they can move supernaturally fast is lame. I agree.

[Sean Fennessey]

I agree.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Sorry, what are you typing?

[Griffin Newman]

My wife's asking how it's going.

[David Sims]

Be nice.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, we mentioned it, but I feel like there's so many stories about this is not in the dossier. That the decision to have the T. Rex re enter and sort of quote, unquote, have the hero moment, I mean, was a later decision decision and is a brilliant one. Right. Where it's like, how do we deal with the raptors? How do you kill? Because, like, if it just ends with them shooting raptors with shotguns.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

That's kind of lame.

[David Sims]

What's smart is also, you kind of show how meaningless this is.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You're like, these, these monsters, these dinosaurs had no specific ire for these humans.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

They're just sort of like, out for blood. But. But this, like, it feels. It finally clicked for me watching it this time that it feels very Godzilla of like, you know, Godzilla starts out as, like, the most terrifying thing you could ever imagining happening to humanity.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And then Godzilla exists as a franchise for decades. That is introduce a new monster. And the only way to solve it is for Godzilla to kill that monster. And you're like, come on, is Godzilla our friend? No, Godzilla's still scary. We still can't control Godzilla. But if Godzilla can knock down Hedorah, then we're fine with Godzilla.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I'm not that versed in the Godzilla movies. And I have the big criterion booklet, you know, thingy. Right.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a beautiful.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is such a wonderful thing.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And as I slowly watch all of my discs, I'm like, watching every disc that I've never seen before or barely remember. Right. So I recently had to watch Rambo Last Blood.

[David Sims]

Great.

[Griffin Newman]

Because I bought, like, a Rambo box set. And have you seen Rambo Last Horrendous. A truly, like, congressional inquiry level, like, what the fuck happened?

[Sean Fennessey]

Wildly Racist.

[Griffin Newman]

So racist.

[Sean Fennessey]

Exceedingly unnecessarily violent, where you're like, why.

[Griffin Newman]

Does Rambo have to be so racist? Yeah, Very, very confused. Even though the earlier ones are sort of like somewhat paternalistic about like the, the people in other countries, this one's just like, no, Mexicans are scum.

[David Sims]

But also a franchise that was like, built on how disillusioned he was with America.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then such a contained story has nothing to do with going overseas and murdering people. It's just very strange.

[Griffin Newman]

Rambo 4. Rambo, right, that one. It's kind of bad, but like, it's got like awesome throat ripping and shit. And you're like, yeah, this sucks. But like, who cares? Rambo5, you're like, this is like mean spirited, like horrible. Anyway, I will one day watch all the Godzillas, but my experience of Godzilla is only movies about how Godzilla is so scary. You know what I mean?

[David Sims]

This is why I'm making this analogy.

[Griffin Newman]

You're right.

[David Sims]

In the later films where Godzilla has to defeat a greater threat. Part of what I think is so fascinating about Godzilla movies is that Godzilla still remains scary. That it's still like, okay, he's at least like, we share a common enemy, but we can't control this thing. And this thing's existence in our world is like, terrifying. And I think Spielberg nails that moment of like, there is triumph in. Oh my God. Great. The T Rex is solving our problems. It's distracting the velociraptors. We can literally just drive. Rey. That's also a theory that they're in a fucking room with a T Rex.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's a difference though. Like God's Godzilla is. While they share this sort of like man's misshapen creation origin story, Godzilla is like a vengeful God. Like, he is out to take, right? You know, to take back what was rightfully his. You know, to get revenge for what he. What has been done to the world.

[Griffin Newman]

A representation of our worst, you know, creation post the war.

[Sean Fennessey]

T Rex is just a fucking eating monster. Right? It's just. I'm hungry. Get out of my way.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Which is way scarier. Like, there's no intentionality other than like, need food in my belly. So it is. It's very satisfying, I find, when the raptors are getting. Get taken out and shout out to that raptor that tried to jump onto your back Gigs.

[Griffin Newman]

He makes a real effort. Get the off.

[Sean Fennessey]

He took a shot at it throws.

[Griffin Newman]

Him into a skeleton.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. But the T Rex is. It is a power unto itself.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, God, it's so good.

[Ben Hosley]

And then the banner coming down.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. You just made you come. So just like a moment.

[David Sims]

Anytime that he has the judgment to execute properly, where if anyone else did it, you'd be like, you're fucking gilding the lily here. And it's like he just knows the right speed for the banner to fall, the timing of when it should start.

[Griffin Newman]

Of course, Williams's score being like, I've been here. Like, we've mostly been chilling, but, like, don't. I can pop this score again. They get in the copter. Alan sleeping.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And everyone's like, by the way, Hammond hate your park. 0 out of 10, F minus. And he's like, agree. See you later.

[David Sims]

You end on Laura Dern quietly processing everything, looking at everyone walking. It's all on her face.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone walks out so happy.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Who walks out of this movie unhappy?

[David Sims]

But, like, this movie just settles itself. It's like, you know what they need to do? They need to leave the island the second they're in the helicopter. Two lines of dialog, three maximum. And then it's just looks. There's no, like, John Hammond holding a press conference announcing his Apollo to the world.

[Sean Fennessey]

Remind me, what is. How does the book end? Isn't there, like, more about what they do to the island? Am I misremembering that?

[Griffin Newman]

The island, like, falls apart more significantly? Like, there's like a fire from what I. Right. Like, it's like the island is more powerfully destroyed and, like, Malcolm is still on it. And I think they, like, napalm it. And that's why you're like, malcolm's dead. And that's why by when then they told Crichton, like, write a sequel, buddy. It better be called Jurassic Park 2 and it better have dinosaurs in it. He was like, I don't like. And they were like, yes, you do. Like, they.

[Sean Fennessey]

There's a $5 million machine gun.

[Griffin Newman]

And they're like, by the way, Jeff Goldblum completely rocked in that movie, so he's the star of the next one. And he's like, I killed that character off. And they're like, undo it.

[Sean Fennessey]

And in the.

[Griffin Newman]

In the sequel novel, he's just like, yeah, I didn't die. What? Who cares?

[Sean Fennessey]

Survived the napal dodge.

[Griffin Newman]

The napalm, I guess. But the. The novel also ends with some kind of, like, clever kind of movie esque report of like. And then weird reports of, like, odd migrating animals in Costa Rica, like, behaving unusually. And you're like, okay, so they don't do that here.

[David Sims]

This movie doesn't, like, feel the need to tie up any loose ends. It doesn't feel the need to set up new threads for sequels to pick on. It just ends because the humans have made it off the island. It's over. Which, by the way, Jaws does as well. Jaws is just like the Shark's dead movie, over 100%. Let's just show them getting back to land, hugging their wives.

[Sean Fennessey]

Both franchises inspired several unnecessary, often uninspired sequels.

[David Sims]

So this, I think, is a fascinating quote from Premiere magazine, May 1997, when Lost World is coming out. Spielberg said, I didn't think it was a perfect film. And it wasn't so close to my heart that I need to protect the integrity of a follow up by preventing anyone else from doing one, which I certainly certainly had the right to do. Among the films that I really think are good movies and that I've directed, it's not even in the top five. But there was such an outpouring of demand from the public, thousands and thousands of letters. And so after all those years of denying them the sequel to E.T. which he famously considered and developed, but.

[Griffin Newman]

Was also like, I can't find a way into that. Right. Yeah.

[David Sims]

I couldn't face the same 9 year old now saying, okay, so you're not gonna make a sequel to E.T. i understand how personal it was to you. So why are you not making the sequel Jurassic Park? And I had no answer to that. That. Because this movie was kind of just like pure exercise for him. He was like, well, there's nothing like sacred that I don't want to touch upon. The only other thing he sequelizes himself is Indiana Jones, which is designed to be a franchise. And part of Lucas, like bringing him on was you have to commit to make three. I want these to be ongoing. But he steps away from Jaws, he like kills his own ET Sequel. This is the only other time. Time that he does it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Do some show lore for me right now. What is your version of the Lost World? What is the thing that you've thousands of letters about that people desperately want you to do?

[David Sims]

Oh, another performance review.

[Sean Fennessey]

And you're like, I guess for the.

[David Sims]

Money, it's another performance review.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, let's do one.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Of what?

[David Sims]

But it's. We haven't found the right thing. In the early days of the show, when we were doing. When we were purely a podcast about the Star wars prequels, we started doing a thing called the Performance review, where we would go through every cast member and write them past or fail to judge whether or not the acting was good in those movies. And then we did it again for the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe on Patreon.

[Griffin Newman]

An episode where we fight with Chris Catherine about the Last Jedi for an hour. But we also find a very convincing Sebastian Stan look alike on Reddit who does porn.

[David Sims]

The discoveries in those episodes are great, and people are often looking for when will there be another thing they have covered in its entirety that feels well suited for performance review. We're also arguing about the performance of, like, the 80th credited actor is still interesting.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[David Sims]

And I don't know what it is.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I don't know Jurassic Park.

[David Sims]

Like, you could zoom out and do whole Jurassic franchise, but I don't.

[Sean Fennessey]

I mean, it's the fast movies, is it not?

[David Sims]

Well, if. If we cover the fast movies, I argue we almost have to do a performance.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's so perfect for that because there are a lot of like, oh, I forgot about Cole Hauser. You know, I forgot about, like, right. This. This guy who's only in a couple of them or whatever.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I feel like that's the one. I feel like orders.

[Griffin Newman]

Obviously. Everyone's always demanding that one. That's our psychotic.

[David Sims]

That's our ET2 night skies. That's the one that people think they want and they're. They should be thanking us for never doing.

[Griffin Newman]

What's that on the rewatchables? Because you guys did Pulp Fiction. So what is it now?

[Sean Fennessey]

Probably Almost Famous, though, for the never done Almost Famous. No. Juliet Litman, who I've worked with for many, many years, has said if she is not included in that episode, she will immediately leave the company. Interesting. So that's a bold threat that she's made. I don't know. There's probably a couple of other Sicario for Chris.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, you got to do that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Chris is waiting for Sicario. Yeah, I received it yet. He's waiting for his night vision goggles.

[David Sims]

But I'm wondering if there's. Is there a movie that people have been waiting, like a singular film from you guys? Yeah, because it's different with, like the director prism, where people are like, I want this whole series.

[Sean Fennessey]

Lynch was a huge one. So what's the next huge one after that?

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, pta.

[Sean Fennessey]

Pta, Yeah.

[David Sims]

I mean, there's Right. There's the obvious tier of like pta. Wes Tarantino. Then they're the sort of personal, like, people want to hear David Goam on Peter we me go ham on 70s almen. Ben Goam on Ernest Dickerson.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, man, Bones, Bones, baby bones.

[Sean Fennessey]

Back in the news here in October. You know, people are watching Bones again there, digging it.

[David Sims]

Bones Tober.

[Sean Fennessey]

Oh, wow. Back.

[Ben Hosley]

Okay, great. I love it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was it a porch movie, Bones?

[David Sims]

Yeah. Was it a porch movie? You think that thing was watching Doors? You think there was a roof over Ben's head when he was watching Bones and Bones?

[Ben Hosley]

I said, fetch me another blanket. I've got more bones to watch.

[David Sims]

This movie was a very big hit.

[Griffin Newman]

It opened June 11, 1993, $50 million, which I think was a race record at the time. It grossed. Well, wait a second, because I don't want to get fooled here by the re releases or whatever. It grossed about $350 million domestic. It's now at 415 and one bill worldwide. I think it was slightly under for its original release that was rereleased several times.

[David Sims]

Big push in the 2010s when they started re releasing American blockbuster classics in 3D was like, get these movies back in American theater. Theaters, but also foreign markets were not as developed.

[Griffin Newman]

Right now. Titanic, a ton of money right in.

[David Sims]

China, never got to play in Asia. Like, all these things.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is a version of the kind of hidden money of Hollywood that there is. It's like constantly churning up an extra 50, 75 million dollars against these properties.

[David Sims]

They did the 20th anniversary Jurassic 3D, which, by the way, I think that conversion is quite good. And the jaws 3D conversion is also quite good. Unsurprisingly, the way that Spielberg just shoots and blocks blocks and edits things works pretty seamlessly in 3D because he just builds that kind of depth into his compositions and isn't frenetically, you know, cutting in a way that would disorient you. The 3D re release made like 40 million here and made like 400 million everywhere else.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, it was just short of the domestic record. ET kept the domestic record at 359, but it beat it worldwide.

[David Sims]

Got it.

[Griffin Newman]

And Spielberg, as you say, does agree to do the sequel because he's almost like, I don't give a shit about Jurassic park, which is kind of interesting.

[David Sims]

And I also think you're right that, like, in spending four years building DreamWorks, he needs the guarantor of, like, I need to remind everyone that I'm Steven Spielberg before I go off and start making some weirder things.

[Griffin Newman]

I think Lost World's a very flawed movie, but it does have very effective sequences and some fun casting. I think Jurassic Park 3 is tons of fun, but disposable. I think all of the world movies are quite Bad. But the J A Bayona one, excuse me.

[David Sims]

Show some respect for our guest here. Thank you.

[Griffin Newman]

But the J Bona one has the only good idea really of all of them, which is the haunted sequence is sort of fun.

[David Sims]

It has sequences.

[Sean Fennessey]

I, I, I had J A on the, on the big picture for that movie because I, I love to interview, I had Fed Alvarez on for Romulos because I love to interview filmmakers like that when they get put in in the franchise chair. And I agree, like he brought the orphanage.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Sean Fennessey]

To Jurassic Park.

[Griffin Newman]

And that was just the one time where you're like this, this is something.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's a take. Yeah, he had a take. It's not totally effective, but there are things about that movie I like.

[David Sims]

I, I mean I think if they had hired J. Biona to develop his own Jurassic movie from scratch, I probably would like that movie. That movie is tore between two poles of this weird franchise. Management of the idea of the sanctity of the Jurassic World trilogy and just letting a fun director make a fun dinosaur movie.

[Sean Fennessey]

This note, that was good.

[Griffin Newman]

Dominion is like a completely insane film.

[David Sims]

Is almost like, like it's incoherent.

[Griffin Newman]

Dominion is so incoherent. It's sort of astonishing. Still made a billion dollars. Yeah. Jurassic park open number one. What's number two?

[David Sims]

Griffin, can you just tell me in June 19, 1993.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

What's number two? Is it a new release? Has it been out for a while?

[Griffin Newman]

It's been out for three weeks. It is a star driven action film. That is good.

[David Sims]

Is it Lethal Weapon 3?

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

Okay. It's not the Fugitive?

[Sean Fennessey]

Nope.

[David Sims]

Okay. Distributor please. Sony, Columbia, Sony, Columbia. Star driven.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not high concept, you know.

[David Sims]

In the Line of Fire. Nope. Star driven.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a big star.

[David Sims]

A sort of a minted star. A recent star minted star.

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of an aging star. But this is his last gasp, I think of true A list stardom. He makes some very fun action pictures in the early 90s before becoming a parody of himself. He was always a parody of himself.

[David Sims]

But true. Cliffhanger.

[Griffin Newman]

It's Sylvia in cliffhanger. The Rennie Harlan.

[David Sims]

I don't argue that's his last. Like a studio blockbuster.

[Griffin Newman]

Demolition man is the same year. And I would agree. That's the end of him being in fun good movies, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Would you agree, Sean?

[David Sims]

You peep that Demolition man aerial box.

[Sean Fennessey]

At David have a soft spot for Walter Hill's A Bullet in the Head.

[Griffin Newman]

That's later, but sure film.

[Sean Fennessey]

I like that. There are not a lot of films for the next 30 years of his career that I like.

[David Sims]

That's arguably him pivoting to being a bit of a B movie star.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes.

[David Sims]

After being, like, one of the most Titanic movie stars who could get anything made at any budget level.

[Sean Fennessey]

Cliffhanger, though. Excellent. Yeah, very enjoyable.

[David Sims]

Cliffhanger's very fun.

[Griffin Newman]

Cliffhanger in Demolition Man Rock, and then writes the Specialist Judge Dredd Assassin's Daylight, which is sort of. Okay. The other ones I just mentioned are not Copland. Is him being like, very good. What do you think? And then.

[David Sims]

But then when he doesn't get an Oscar nomination and he's like, then, thank you, I won't try that. Right. That's a bad run.

[Griffin Newman]

And then he goes straight to dvd, and then he's back as Rambo. Jesus. Talking a lot of Stallone. Okay. Number three at the box office is a comedy.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Sort of an odd couple comedy.

[David Sims]

Is it House? No, I was putting out the one.

[Griffin Newman]

Neither guest nor sitter. Guest. No, it is. So it's not really. Okay. Okay.

[David Sims]

Oh, so the hint was wrong. It's not really the thing about me.

[Griffin Newman]

Calling it an odd couple comedy, is it? Is that sort of. But you know what the movie is? Yes. It's the stars became a couple, and there's a very famous thing that happened involving them that was sort of sanctioned internally because they were a couple, but is now something you hear about and your jaw hits the floor in the.

[Sean Fennessey]

History of this show. This is one of the funniest movies.

[Griffin Newman]

To try to use. I know.

[David Sims]

Even can you restate what you just.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like. So the. The. The. The two stars of this movie, I believe, became a couple. Right. Did they start because of this movie? Okay. I'm not sure.

[Sean Fennessey]

Might have predated that. But yes, they were.

[Griffin Newman]

And one of the male star then did something. Not for film, but he did something that was seen by people, sort of a promotional. And it's something that you're not supposed to do. It's an offensive thing.

[Sean Fennessey]

Two huge stars at the time, but.

[Griffin Newman]

He kind of, quote unquote, could do it back then because he was dating the woman here.

[Ben Hosley]

Oh, my God.

[Griffin Newman]

I think that's what.

[Sean Fennessey]

You know.

[David Sims]

What the fuck? And you know what it is? It's not. It's not Hugh Grant or Eddie Murphy.

[Griffin Newman]

No. It's a. A TV star whose movie career was not nothing, but, like, he never quite was a movie star.

[David Sims]

He got permission because permission is, to.

[Griffin Newman]

Be clear, kind of strong. Because what he did is not good.

[David Sims]

I have solved it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

The film is called Made in America.

[Griffin Newman]

That is correct.

[David Sims]

You are speaking of Ted Danson's Friars.

[Griffin Newman]

Club blackface speech, correct?

[David Sims]

To. To tribute his then girlfriend, Whoopi Goldberg, who he had left his wife who was in a coma for. Was that right? Didn't he have a wife who is gravely ill?

[Griffin Newman]

I'm not sure about that part, although it's possible.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just funny that everything about Ted Danson, I feel like, is now just such a beloved celebrity. Right? Like, actor two. Good actor. Like, really an iconic TV person, but his partnership with Mary Steenbergen is so beloved. And then, like, if you go back, you're like, oh, some bumps in the road here.

[David Sims]

Those photos are astonishing of him in the full getup and Whoopi, like, clapping.

[Griffin Newman]

Like he was in, like, minstrel blackface. Like, it wasn't just like, they, like, tanned his skin or like, he's like, it's a parody, I guess. But that was. When you see pictures of it, you're like, what the fuck is going on? This dad dancing.

[Sean Fennessey]

This was not like a Kentucky Fairgrounds event in 1958. This is 1993 that this happened.

[David Sims]

He is Saint, ending his run as the star of the most beloved sitcom in the world.

[Sean Fennessey]

Crazy thing that happened.

[David Sims]

Like, 11 seasons of triumph.

[Griffin Newman]

But no, no, that's right. I was struggling with Made in America because Made America is like, what is it? It's that, like, America is. There's a DNA test and she. Is she related to Ted? Dan.

[David Sims]

No, no, no, no, no. It's. Will Smith is her son.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And Ted Daniel.

[David Sims]

Sperm.

[Griffin Newman]

Sperm donor. Right. So it's sort of an odd couple.

[David Sims]

And he's like a huckster. Used car salesman. Is that right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he's like a. You know, oh, my God, I got a cowboy hat. And she's like, what? I'm Wolfy Goldberg. We're so different.

[David Sims]

He wants to meet his dad, and then they meet and they don't get along. And then they do fall in love.

[Griffin Newman]

I've never seen it.

[David Sims]

It's also.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it's just a Richard Benjamin movie.

[David Sims]

Will Smith's first movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that so?

[David Sims]

It's certainly his first significant.

[Sean Fennessey]

It gets after six degrees of separation.

[Griffin Newman]

Interesting.

[Sean Fennessey]

Maybe right before it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the same year. I'm not sure which came out first. It's right before it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Just a reminder. This film made $100 million at the box office.

[Griffin Newman]

Made in America made $104 million worldwide.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

50 at least in America. And Richard Benjamin, it's of those guys where it's like Rich Benjamin made some big movies. Like he made hits. He made my favorite year. He made like mermaids. Right. But he also made like some true stinkers.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Richard Benjamin, star of Westworld.

[Griffin Newman]

Star of Westworld but also director of.

[Sean Fennessey]

Marcy X. I enjoy Milk Money.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, I've never seen that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Where real classic hooker with a heart of gold formulation starring Melanie Griffith, some young boys and Ed Harris. Charming film.

[David Sims]

Very good. In Last of Sheila Benjamin.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, no, he's a good actor. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Married to one of my all time crushes, Paul Apprentice.

[David Sims]

Oh, wow.

[Griffin Newman]

So that's number three.

[David Sims]

That's a wild movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep. Number four at the box office is not a movie I am that familiar with. It is from Disney, but it is a grownup legal thriller.

[David Sims]

So was it a touchdown A Hollywood Pictures release?

[Griffin Newman]

What do we looks like it was Hollywood Pictures and starring two, you know, real R rated actors. You know what I mean?

[Sean Fennessey]

I've just seen this for the first time this year.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what this movie is?

[Sean Fennessey]

I do. I've seen it and there's a reason why I saw it related to an episode that we did.

[Griffin Newman]

It's from a direct legal draft. Quite a big deal.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

To you. But also to Hollywood. A great director, but it's also a director who made one billion movies. So sometimes.

[David Sims]

Is it a Lumetri.

[Griffin Newman]

Sidney Lumet movie.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what I mean by two actors where it's like if they're in a movie, the movie is rated R. Those two stars.

[Sean Fennessey]

A million percent. Yes.

[David Sims]

Is it?

[Griffin Newman]

They don't show up for pg.

[David Sims]

What's this movie called? Guilty as Sin. Correct.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's it.

[Griffin Newman]

Don Johnson and Rebecca De Mornay in Guilty as Sin written by Larry Cohen.

[Sean Fennessey]

How is it unworthy of the talent surrounding it? It's a real B movie and it's.

[Griffin Newman]

Like in an era of 90s erotic thrillers and stuff.

[Sean Fennessey]

Right. Also easily the schlockiest looking Lumet movie. Very out of sh. Relative to what he normally is.

[David Sims]

Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

I love, you know, Tom Johnson. Absolute flames this year in Rebel Ridge. That guy is probably making my ballot. Well, have you seen Rebel Ridge?

[David Sims]

No. His last 10 years have quietly been on fire.

[Griffin Newman]

I feel like he's one of those guys where I'm. He's kind of like Brandon Nimmo. You will. Where I'm just like, I don't want to hear a thing about who you vote for or why. I just want you to give fantastic workman like performances on screen.

[David Sims]

I don't want to be reminded of the things I Already know about you.

[Griffin Newman]

I love you so much in movies and I don't want to think about anything else. Thank you very much.

[Sean Fennessey]

He has very comfortably settled into I'm Just a Heel in Everything. And it works every time.

[David Sims]

I feel like it kind of starts with Eastbound and Down, where you're like, who is Kenny's dad going to be? And then the reveal. You're like, that's weirdly perfect. He's in on the joke. And then he's just had this really good. He's great. Knives out. Anyway, you watch every lady for that episode I did. What do you put at the absolute bottom?

[Sean Fennessey]

The. The last of the.

[David Sims]

Blah, blah, blah.

[Sean Fennessey]

Hot Shots.

[David Sims]

With the last of Mobile. Hot Shots.

[Sean Fennessey]

Yeah. With James Coburn.

[David Sims]

That's your dead last.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's terrible.

[David Sims]

I've never seen that. I. I love Braverman.

[Sean Fennessey]

Is like, not. Is hard to watch.

[David Sims]

I have a lot of blind spots. I'm probably holding more against it because of, like, context. Gloria, for me, feels like it's so pointless and, like, why did you do this?

[Sean Fennessey]

So pointless. Yeah. He's got some real stinkers.

[David Sims]

Yeah. But also, like 10 of the greatest.

[Sean Fennessey]

The top 10 is incredible. Incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

He made a lot of fucking movies. Number five at the box office. Came up on our draft that we did recently with Sean. A comedy.

[David Sims]

Our President draft.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's right.

[David Sims]

Is it the movie, Dave?

[Griffin Newman]

It's the movie, Dave.

[David Sims]

The best president movie ever made, in my opinion.

[Griffin Newman]

A very, very fun film. That was very solid hit. You've also got in the top 10. Menace to Society. I recently watched my Criterion 4K of that.

[David Sims]

Congratulations.

[Griffin Newman]

An incredibly impressive film. That is so, so, so upsetting and dark. You've got Life with Mikey.

[David Sims]

Yeah. That's Michael J. Fox.

[Griffin Newman]

Michael J. Fox. Right.

[David Sims]

As a child. Talent agent. David Krumholtz debut film. Friend of the show.

[Griffin Newman]

Never seen. You've got Hot Chart Part Deux.

[David Sims]

I don't think that's the title. Do you want to take us second take on that?

[Griffin Newman]

Hot Shots. Hot. Hot Shots Part two?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You want me to do it like that?

[David Sims]

Yeah. If Ben's given a thumbs up, I'm also giving it a thumbs up.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I've seen both Hot Shots movies, but not in a long time, and I cannot remember, like, which is which.

[David Sims]

I've seen hot shots part two probably 15 times, and I think hot shots one time.

[Griffin Newman]

Hotshots. Same. Griff is the one where he's got the chicken on the poster.

[David Sims]

It's the Rambo, right? Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And Hot Shots 1 is more of like a Top Gun thing.

[David Sims]

Hotshots 1 is, like, straight up top, gone. And Hot Shots Part DU is everything.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just action movies.

[Sean Fennessey]

This is the number one American film featuring the word duh in the title. And number two is Joker. Fully a duh.

[David Sims]

Okay, what was. What was the final domestic gross on Hotshots part du? And will Joker have outgrossed it by the time this episode comes out?

[Griffin Newman]

I think it will because the final gross is 38. And as much as Joker Do 2 is underperforming. It's underperforming in a.

[David Sims]

The Marvel it opened to 37.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Number nine at the box office is another erotic thriller of some renown at this point. Sliver, the William Friedkin. Sorry, that's the Philip Noyce movie. William Friedkin is Jade. Jade is unhinged. Sliver is bad. That's what it is.

[David Sims]

Sliver is Billy Baldwin.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And a Joe Eszterhouse script. And then Sliver is awful.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm ready for a reclamation.

[Griffin Newman]

But everyone's reclaiming every piece of 90s erotica trash right now. And some of them, like Jade. You're like, jade has juice. Jade is a flawed movie.

[David Sims]

Also inspires one of the greatest jokes in movie history. Be like David Caruso and Jade. Got it.

[Griffin Newman]

Caruso's amazing in Jade.

[Sean Fennessey]

Did you know that Sliver is based on an IRA 11 novel?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, I did. And I recently watched Sliver. I do not know why. I cannot remember what I was thinking watching that movie. But it's.

[Sean Fennessey]

Doesn't it have a good idea about surveillance?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, it's. William Baldwin is the, like, head of the apartment building, and he can, like, has cameras that look at people and, like, there's this sort of voyeurism.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that is a good idea for.

[Sean Fennessey]

The Dark Knight and Morgan Freeman. You know, it's good. Good enough for questions asked, not good enough for Sliver.

[Griffin Newman]

Helps him catch the Joker.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Here's to go full circle back talking about Jurassic being like, the blockbuster that people are still trying to chase. I think the only three things since then that have similarly made Hollywood go like, how do we replicate that? Are the Dark Knight, Avengers, and End Game.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right, right.

[David Sims]

And in all cases, every time they tried to follow it, like danger.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think there are some caveats to that.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think Lord of the Rings, Avatar, and Twilight are all so influential in particular ways. Maybe not quite the same where Jurassic park just felt like it ate America for six weeks, but those three movies I always think of because there have been so many, you know, there is no Game of Thrones without Lord of the Rings. There is no Lord of the Rings.

[Griffin Newman]

Is at the tippy top of influence, for sure.

[David Sims]

But here's the other thing. Outside of Avatar, all of those are adapting huge pre existing material that has existed in the culture for decades, whereas.

[Griffin Newman]

Avatar was adapting Ferrungali. So that's pretty huge too.

[David Sims]

The fact that Jurassic park is like, here's this book that came out. The movie's gonna be out in six months, is very different.

[Griffin Newman]

Speaking of adapting huge material, number 10 at the box office, of course, is Rocky Morton and Annabel Jankel's great Super Mario Brothers, in which Bob Hoskins looks like he wants to die every minute he's on screen and John Leguizamo is having fun.

[David Sims]

Isn't the story that John Leguizamo on set was like, you ever play the game? And Bob Hoskins was like, what game?

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's better than that. The story on set is that they were all drinking heavily is what Leguizamo and Hoskins say particularly. No, there's this amazing clip of Hoskins being like, I told my kids, you know, got super carrier brothers. And my kids were like, oh, the game. And he was like, what game? And they showed me this game and they see this guy going, big, big. And I was like, I play King Lear, and it's so funny.

[David Sims]

Did you get that box out?

[Griffin Newman]

No. Should I? That movie is really so ingrained in my heart because I saw it as a kid and was just like, I love this. Which is so insane because obviously it does no effort at really adapting what those games are like.

[David Sims]

Look, our friend Patrick Willems did a really good video that was like a hostile movie. Yeah. Let people make sloppy adaptations again, right? It was like, don't we have a certain romanticism for the era where people didn't care about the material?

[Griffin Newman]

Not just the era where they didn't care, but where studios were like, it better not resemble this video game in any way, right? And they're like, yeah, no, we want to do like a steampunk lizard movie studio. Sounds good.

[David Sims]

Buy a beloved thing and be like, now, obviously, this thing is for losers. And Illumination, anything that resembles it, right?

[Griffin Newman]

They're like, yeah, we need this movie to have gears and bombs and. And then like, now Illumination makes Super Mario Brothers. And that movie basically is just like sucking your dick all day about, like, don't you love Toad? And I'm just like, I don't care about Toad.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm. I'm. I'm Dreading the day my daughter discovers Princess Peach. Like it is curtains. That day happens. It's going to be Princess Peach all day.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Because Princess Peach is tough because like, I know they empower her now. And she's an adventurous character, girl, boss, a pink ass dress. Her name is Princess Peach.

[David Sims]

Yeah. And she talks like this.

[Griffin Newman]

Like it's tough to kind of. She's the.

[Sean Fennessey]

The witch from the witch, you know. And you tell her.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, God.

[Sean Fennessey]

Bariosa is Princess Peach.

[Griffin Newman]

I do like Super Mario Brothers, the movie. I do like it.

[David Sims]

It's a film.

[Griffin Newman]

I like it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And Samantha Mathis is really hot in it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And Dennis Hopper's having fun. Yeah. We're done. We're done, we're done. We did. We did a long time underestimate Park.

[Ben Hosley]

It was great. Hey, I want to shout out one thing at the end here, please. The video game on SEGA Genesis.

[Griffin Newman]

Video game is fun.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think I played that. What was the. What was the idea?

[Griffin Newman]

It's a platformer, right? You know, it's a scroll.

[Sean Fennessey]

Side scroll, side scroll.

[Ben Hosley]

You could play as Dr. Grant or as a velociraptor.

[David Sims]

Okay, that's.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, that's right. Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

What. What was your mission if you were a raptor to eat kids.

[Ben Hosley]

I think you were just basically fighting other dinosaurs.

[Sean Fennessey]

Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

It pretty much was like the same character. You could just swap out. You know what I'm saying? You would have different like fighting techniques better.

[Sean Fennessey]

I always ask this when I talk about 90s games. Better or worse than the Simpsons arcade game?

[David Sims]

Well, that's the best game ever made.

[Sean Fennessey]

That's. Is that not the greatest experience you had as a kid playing an arcade game?

[David Sims]

I think.

[Griffin Newman]

But I had The Simpsons Bart vs. The Evil Mutants game. That is so hard. I don't think I play. It's like if Super Ghouls and Ghosts was harder. Like it's so difficult. And I must have played that first level a million times just cuz I was like, this is a Simpsons video game. I'm enjoying it.

[Sean Fennessey]

Was that on Genesis?

[Griffin Newman]

I think it was initially on like the master system. Maybe. I had it on a game gear.

[David Sims]

Can I talk about the toys for.

[Griffin Newman]

One minute and then we're done.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Much like the bidding war for the rights to the movie itself. When the book went on the market, everyone was fighting for the toys. And then they got the rights and then they were like, wait, what did we just buy? What is proprietary? Anyone can make dinosaurs. You don't need a license for that. And is one of the Smartest strategic branding things. Kenner and Hasbro held onto the license for like 25 years until eventually Mattel took it away in the Jurassic World sequels. But their big innovation was come up with the logo, which was the JP stamp. Do you remember this? All the dinosaur toys had this logo that was like a J and a P combined. And the ads were all like, look for the JP to know it's a real Jurassic park toy. They created this attitude of, yeah, sure, you could go to a museum and buy a fucking figure of a T. Rex, but if you don't have the JP stamp on the schoolyard, that's not the real thing. It was really, really smart. But also this movie was so fast tracked that they started making the toys of the human characters without any reference material. So this is what Wayne Knight looked like.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? That's an icon.

[David Sims]

I know my favorite example, that he.

[Griffin Newman]

Looks like an actual.

[David Sims]

All of them are funny. And then like a year later they went back around and made them look a little more accurate. But that's the best one.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, that's really funny. Jurassic Park. Sean, thank you.

[David Sims]

Any final thoughts?

[Sean Fennessey]

Yes, I'm just, you know, I always feel blessed to be able to pod with you guys.

[David Sims]

Oh, come on.

[Sean Fennessey]

I really.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone should obviously listen to the big picture and to the rewatchables.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thanks.

[David Sims]

I set my clock to it. It stabilizes my week.

[Sean Fennessey]

I think it's just a shame we're not on the same coast. You know, I feel like it's nice to be here. You've built a very special space.

[David Sims]

We like our space.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'd like to doff my cap to Ben for all the fine work he's done in crafting this space.

[David Sims]

Ben really is the homemaker.

[Sean Fennessey]

Some innovations in this performance style. You know, I've made a. I've made a pot or two in my time and not quite in this formulation that we're in right now. And now I'm going to take it back to me into the great city of Los Angeles and say, hey, at Blank Check Productions there they might be onto something.

[David Sims]

We will, because we'll post pictures sometimes of us recording. People are like, well, why are the desks so far apart? I've always imagined most photos. I've seen a podcast where everyone's crammed around one table. And that's what we always were back in the day when we were at other studios and other networks. And then coming out of the pandemic, we recorded in Ben's living room where we had to like assemble and disassemble equipment very quickly. And our. Our beloved editors started giving you notes and being like, you know what? If you moved further apart, if you went to these corners, if you had further furniture relative to this. It was sort of a long exploratory process that landed on Ben realizing this works, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

It's fantastic. What a pleasure. I've. Jurassic Park.

[David Sims]

Jurassic Park.

[Sean Fennessey]

Does it get any better? Is it better or worse to do a. Just a truly five star masterpiece?

[Griffin Newman]

I think the best episodes are like rollerball. Like, I think. I think the episode to do that's most fun as a guest is usually just some absolute dog. But Jurassic park is fun to talk about.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like. Like, I think if you were doing Raiders, that'll be hard. Who's doing Raiders?

[David Sims]

Well, let's not say it in case.

[Griffin Newman]

I know who wants to do it.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[Sean Fennessey]

So I'll come back for like Quintet.

[David Sims]

Yeah. That's what you want to do. You want to put your name down for Quintet.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the chess one.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never seen Arctic Human Chess.

[Sean Fennessey]

So you still get to do Paul Newman, which I love.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

And then just the fiasco of fiascos from my favorite.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Did like three fiascos with Altman, but that's number one.

[David Sims]

He did two. He did Buffalo Bill and Quintet back to back. And on paper it's like, oh, how cool. Paul Newman knows that he should work.

[Griffin Newman]

With Robert anti Western and like sci fi concept movie.

[David Sims]

And it's like arguably his two worst films.

[Sean Fennessey]

Could be. Yeah, could be.

[Griffin Newman]

Buffalo Bill is really boring. I've seen that.

[Sean Fennessey]

It is so boring.

[David Sims]

Yeah. You know what's really boring?

[Sean Fennessey]

Quintet.

[David Sims]

Quintet.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm imagining the riffs and the bits and the. Quintet.

[David Sims]

Quintet. Quintet. I'm calling it Quintet. Tet is that should be the thing that children are writing us letters demanding.

[Griffin Newman]

We do well now. Sean will be on it, so.

[David Sims]

Okay, great.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't have to do the credits, Griff.

[David Sims]

I know. No, I know. I wasn't going to do that. I was going to say something different. Thank you for being here, Sean.

[Sean Fennessey]

Thanks, guys.

[David Sims]

Tune in next week for Schindler's List and a movie that will hopefully be easy enough to talk about, I think so.

[Griffin Newman]

I think we're going to have a guest who feels very strongly about that movie and has a lot to say.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And is a friend of ours.

[David Sims]

Okay. And as always, we were so preoccupied wondering if we could make this episode over three hours, we didn't consider whether or not we should make this episode over three hours.

[Griffin Newman]

I agree with that.

[Sean Fennessey]

Wait, where's Marie?

[Griffin Newman]

You want her here just, like, in a box? We turn around.

[Sean Fennessey]

I've not met Marie.

[Griffin Newman]

You should meet Marie.

[David Sims]

You should meet Marie.

[Sean Fennessey]

What the hell? I think I was sitting in the same row as her at the screen of Queer that I was at, and I was gonna say something.

[Griffin Newman]

You should have did.

[David Sims]

So the way this is interesting. Talk about our listeners, assuming we're all crowded around one small table. Maria Louise, you listen to the show and think that Marie's just in the corner every episode. Even though it's happening, sometimes it happens.

[Sean Fennessey]

I love Marie episodes. Marie rules Marie episodes. I. I eagerly look forward to them. So I. I was hoping she would be sitting in the room.

[Griffin Newman]

Next time, let's. Let's get Marie in here for you.

[Sean Fennessey]

I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

Or let's all hang out.

[Sean Fennessey]

I'm getting on a plane now.

[Griffin Newman]

So next time, you have your. You literally have your bags brought.

[David Sims]

My bags.

[Griffin Newman]

You're going to jfk.

[Sean Fennessey]

I am.

[David Sims]

You're taking the helicopter? Yeah.

[Sean Fennessey]

You're gonna have to explain to me what's the best way to. To get there from here. So.

[Ben Hosley]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas, and our Associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithee. Research by JJ Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel, with additional music, music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank checkpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter. Checkpoint Book on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.