Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World with John Hodgman

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David

Episode: Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World with John Hodgman
Release Date: May 31, 2026
Guest: John Hodgman

Episode Overview

This episode of Blank Check continues Griffin and David's in-depth journey through the filmography of Peter Weir, focusing on his 2003 historical seafaring epic Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World. Special guest John Hodgman joins the hosts for a sprawling, affectionate, and detailed discussion of the film’s place in Weir's career, its historical specificity, a loving digression into nautical life and dad cinema, the cult status the film has developed, and the curious careers of its stars. The episode swells with witty banter, rich historical context, and a palpable adoration for the movie’s unique pleasures.

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Main Themes

• Celebration and Reappraisal: Reexamining Master and Commander as a “miracle movie” whose reputation has only grown.
• Dad Cinema: The film as a lodestone of dad-centric filmmaking, its audience, and why movies like this are less common today.
• Peter Weir the Author: The subtle but profound fingerprints Weir leaves on his movies and how that affects the film's identity.
• Nautical Detail: Exploration of the film’s obsessive authenticity regarding the life of sailors, naval hierarchy, and shipboard rituals.
• Casting and Career Detours: Deep dives into the peculiar paths of Russell Crowe and Paul Bettany.
• Nostalgia and Modern Hollywood: Why Master and Commander likely couldn’t get made today.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Why This Movie Matters So Much to David

• [01:44] David: “Yes, I think it is. And I think I should just, like, next time I do Sight and Sound, stop being like, I love some important movie. So just fucking put this on there...”
• [01:56] John Hodgman: “Because why is this not an important movie? It is.”
• David admits it’s maybe his most personally meaningful film, one he watches for comfort or to calm down—“ship as England.”
• The episode is self-consciously treated as “David’s episode,” with Griffin and John playing into and around his attachment.

Cult Classic or Peter Weir Classic?

• [15:18] John Hodgman: “But I wonder if he is even known for the film. In other words, I think that people who idolize this film … think of it as a Peter Weir film or just think of it as this—a Master and Commander.”
• Discussion about how Weir’s films resist auteurist branding and genre—his style is “subtle and malleable” ([16:11]).
• They muse how rare it is for a director to have multiple beloved films without a clear "from the director of..." marketing identity ([16:28]).

Boat Movies, Dad Cinema, and the Post-Theatrical Age

• Comparison with Pirates of the Caribbean (and its campier approach) and why Master and Commander stands alone.
• Hodgman coins the term “dadism” for the entire ethos of the movie: “It is all dadism all the way down.” ([23:12])
• Reflections on the withering “dad” audience at the theater since the pandemic—how Greyhound (Tom Hanks) is the logical streaming descendant ([26:56]).
• [23:33] David: Notes on Horatio Nelson’s mythic place in British culture and how Americans aren’t always conscious of these references.

Production Backstory and Miracle of Existence

• Producer Tom Rothman's secret passion project—the “one for me” in his tenure ([31:05]–[32:36]).
• The circuitous rights history, the necessity of studio buy-in from someone (Rothman) who "gets" it ([61:34]).
• Weir and the screenwriters’ two-year process to craft the script, with explicit focus on naval detail, the family-like structure of the crew, and resisting traditional plotting ([68:09], [68:54]).

On Russell Crowe and Paul Bettany

• Russell Crowe as the last of the classic, brawling epic leading men ([70:09]): “He’s the one guy who can pull this shit off in our modern era.”
• The peculiar post-M&C careers of both Crowe and Bettany, with notable admiration for Bettany’s turn as Maturin ([46:51]):
  • [46:53] David (re Bettany): “I think he's the greatest performance ever captured by a camera.”
• The Oscars snubbing Bettany, who never quite got his star ascent afterward ([49:41] onwards).
• Musings on the real-life marriage of Bettany and Jennifer Connelly, and how it might align with their career choices ([55:52]).

The Book Series and Nautical Authenticity

• Abundant discussion of Patrick O’Brian’s source material, what’s adapted, and the role of book-fidelity for fans ([13:31]–[14:33], [118:56]).
• Hodgman, as resident “boatsman,” supplies extensive, sometimes comic nautical context:
  • The function of the “lead,” “lines” not “ropes,” the physical and social structure of the ship ([105:19] onwards).
  • Colorful bits about hardtack (“it makes matzah look… very moist” [139:02]), hog’s face, and the grim pragmatism of ship cuisine.

The Subtle Humor and Warmth of Weir’s Direction

• [137:07] John Hodgman: “The Lesser of Two Weevils joke deserves its own conversation.” (and it gets one, complete with a request for a supercut over Def Jam crowd reaction)
• Discussion of the movie’s warmth, its careful attention to male intimacy (friendship, mentorship, even “sea marriages”), and the patient narrative—“the natural patient pace of a Peter Weir movie marries so quickly with the necessary pace of sailing a ship” ([167:01]).

Final Action and the Nontraditional Climax

• Detailed walkthrough of the action beats—how the film builds cumulative impact rather than relying on a central villain or traditional Hollywood plotting ([146:40] onwards).
• Admiration for the bittersweet, ambiguous ending where “they're going to have a million more adventures” and Aubrey and Maturin’s musical coda ([11:58], [171:16]).
• The “miracle” of the film’s existence and the impossibility of sequels or streaming reboots living up to it ([20:24], [22:01]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• [11:42] David Sims: “Perfect ending line. You're like, oh, I'm so happy. And then they're like, let's fucking, you know, have sex. AKA play our stringed instruments together.”
• [23:12] John Hodgman: “It is all dadism all the way down.”
• [21:23] John Hodgman: “If someone at 20th pictures like let's do another Master and Commander, it would be a failure… This is dad. And the thing is, this came out in my thoughts kind of the last time dads were going to movies.”
• [41:12] John Hodgman: “I had a very clear thought. Oh, yeah, this is the only movie that gets right what it's like to have been on a ship in this time period. And then I step back and I go, I don't fucking know that I have no lived experience.”
• [130:59] David Sims: “They're going to tell jokes at dinner.”
• [137:19] David Sims: “[Bettany] puts on his legendary cunty little glasses. Perhaps the cuntiest little glasses ever worn in a movie.”
• [176:11] David Sims / Hodgman (chanting the naval song): “Safe and sound at home again / Let the waters roar, Jack…”

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Timestamps for Core Segments

| Segment | Content Highlights | |--------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00 – 08:00 | Introductions, running jokes, why David loves the film, context of Peter Weir series | | 13:00 – 18:00 | Book origins, naval detail, Peter Weir’s elusive auteurism | | 21:00 – 27:00 | Dad cinema, lost moviegoing audience, streaming era comparisons | | 31:00 – 39:00 | Deep-dive on the film's circuitous development and miracle status | | 46:00 – 57:00 | Paul Bettany’s performance and career post-M&C, the supporting actor Oscar race | | 64:00 – 69:00 | On casting, writer credits, the chemistry of Crowe and Bettany | | 85:00 – 94:00 | Technical production: ships, water tanks, tank design, how it all got made | | 104:00 – 113:00 | Meticulous sound design, authenticity, the opening naval skirmish | | 130:00 – 140:00 | The dinner/lesser of two weevils scene, the economy of Weir’s direction, shipboard camaraderie | | 146:00 – End | Final battles, emotional fallout, ambiguous cliffhanger, box office numbers, Hodgman’s nautical explainer |

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Notable Insights

• A Movie Out of Time: Master and Commander is celebrated here as the terminal apex of big-budget, studio-backed, 'dad' epics—hyper-authentic, unsentimental, and adult-focused.
• Production as Anachronism: Everything about this film’s making (on-location ships, tanks, miniatures, lack of romance or a conventional villain) bespeaks a system that flat-out doesn’t exist anymore.
• Peter Weir’s Style: The hosts repeatedly note Weir’s “patience”—his willingness to let mood, process, community, and manner color the narrative as much as plot ([164:31]).
• Male Intimacy: The film is a major text in “massively heterosexual but deeply intimate” male relationships, with the Aubrey/Maturin dynamic examined for its nuance, codependency, and “musical” consummation ([128:10] onward; [11:43] "They're doing it.").
• The Box Office Curse: Discussed with dark comic flair, the movie’s “Jonah” (bad luck), opening at #2 behind Elf ([178:24]), and the lost likelihood of sequels.
• Nautical Scholarship as Performance: Hodgman’s maritime bonafides become their own running joke and source of true insight; teaching the hosts about lines, knots, anchors, and the odd comfort/vulnerability of ship life is a highlight.

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Episode Conclusion

The episode ends with the panel affectionately chorusing the old "Don't Forget Your Old Shipmate" sea shanty, a final flourish that both honors the film’s emotional core and the spirit of male friendship the hosts celebrate. The warmth, depth, and humor of both the movie and the podcast’s community are on full display, anchored by Hodgman’s seafaring expertise and David’s unabashed love for the material.

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Further Listening

• Next week (announced at [191:10]): The Way Back with Alex Ross Perry, concluding the Weir miniseries.

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Boat Facts, Just for Fun (From Hodgman)

“If you drop the anchor, you need to let out at least three times and up to seven times the depth in chain, because it’s the chain—not just the anchor—that keeps you in place” ([186:36]).

“The powerlessness, literal and figurative, of being on a sailing vessel—that’s what the movie is all about. It’s a collision of a sense of control and complete lack of control.” ([184:37])

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Summary Verdict

This episode is an essential listen for fans of Master and Commander, enthusiasts of Peter Weir’s cinema, and anyone interested in how mid-2000s studio filmmaking could still turn out miracles. Through rich analysis, jokes, and affectionate tangents, it captures everything that made—and makes—Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World special.

Transcript

[David Sims]

Blank check with Griffin and David.

[Griffin Newman]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect.

[John Hodgman]

All you need to know is that

[Griffin Newman]

the name of the shy was blank jack. April 1805. Napoleon is master of Europe. Only the British fleet stands before him. Podcasts are now podcasts.

[David Sims]

Podcasts are now podcasts.

[Griffin Newman]

Podcasts are now podcasts.

[David Sims]

No, I think it's. It has got to be podcasts are now battlefields or oceans are now podcast.

[Griffin Newman]

Which one is it?

[David Sims]

Oceans are now podcast.

[Griffin Newman]

Oceans are now.

[David Sims]

You can't put podcasts for both. Doesn't. Yeah, but there is a lot you could do. Like, one must always choose the lesser of two podcasts.

[Griffin Newman]

You just said there's only one thing. I think.

[David Sims]

I think that's the thing.

[Griffin Newman]

And I tried to throw you off the hump by putting podcasts in two places to make you annoyed.

[David Sims]

Joe Rogan is master. I would like to, at the start of this episode, ask you to try and not make me annoyed on this episode.

[Griffin Newman]

Please.

[David Sims]

That is a sincere request from me. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I am not intending to make you annoyed on this episode.

[David Sims]

Okay, well, I want to make that sincere request. This is a movie that really matters to me and I don't want you

[John Hodgman]

to be real Aubrey Matern.

[David Sims]

I want that right on the record to start this episode.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm not trying to do any nagging.

[David Sims]

You just said he tried to make me a donate for your damn hobbies, man.

[Griffin Newman]

The one thing you said there's only one thing I could do.

[David Sims]

Well, I mean, I do feel like I'm wearing it right now. You wear the. I feel like that is because it's the opening. Because, like, it's the most. But then I was. I was. I was like. But of course, there are so many great lines and I didn't want to. I love your admiral hat. There are no admirals in this movie, Ben. Oh, boy, here we go.

[Griffin Newman]

Is this one of your 10 favorite movies of all time?

[David Sims]

Yes, I think it is. And I think I should just, like, next time I do Sight and Sound, stop being like, I love some important movie. So just fucking put this on there

[John Hodgman]

because why is this not an important movie? It is.

[David Sims]

This is what I'm saying.

[John Hodgman]

Before we started recording, you said, maybe

[David Sims]

this is the most. I think it's the most important movie to me.

[Griffin Newman]

Last night you texted, like, the best movie ever.

[David Sims]

This is, isn't it? Is it not?

[John Hodgman]

Are you talking to me? Yeah. I'm very self conscious about being here, I must say.

[David Sims]

Oh, you're worried because you're like, I don't. You know, you don't feel worried?

[John Hodgman]

I had.

[David Sims]

I'm not worried.

[John Hodgman]

Weeks ago, as the Peter Weir thing was just getting started in my feed, I had lunch with J. D', Amato, the great J.D.

[David Sims]

amato.

[John Hodgman]

Great J.D. amato.

[Griffin Newman]

And I'm willing to say this past and future guest.

[John Hodgman]

That's a big.

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah, it's a big deal.

[John Hodgman]

Come back.

[Griffin Newman]

He was on just last week, and he'll come back again.

[John Hodgman]

Good, because he's waiting outside.

[David Sims]

Oh, right. He was just on the show in

[John Hodgman]

Chronomet, and I said to jd, we were talking about all kinds of things.

[David Sims]

Oh, actually, you know what? Embarrassing for you.

[Griffin Newman]

Mandalorian and Grogu, it's in between.

[David Sims]

So Gethard was right. JD was on two weeks.

[Griffin Newman]

I regret to inform you, it is, in fact the Mandalorian and Grogu.

[John Hodgman]

So I really.

[David Sims]

I was gesturing to Grogu. Some.

[John Hodgman]

Somewhere there is Grogu.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

In. In this. Down there, in this palace of secrets and delights.

[David Sims]

I'm sure we got a Grogu somewhere.

[John Hodgman]

You got to gotta. You gotta get a Grogu in here somewhere.

[David Sims]

There's gotta be a Grogu. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, there isn't. And I've actually. I've been surveying the landscape recently. I'm like, does there need to be some Grogu representation in this office? And if there is, what's the one? I don't know if you know this. It's a very merchandised character.

[David Sims]

Oh, you're kidding.

[Griffin Newman]

There's too many Grogu items.

[John Hodgman]

Too many Grogu.

[Griffin Newman]

So I'm trying to pick the one. But I'm sorry, you were getting lunch with the grocery, so I was having

[John Hodgman]

lunch with JD Amado. We're talking about a lot of things. And I mentioned I'm. I'm excited about this Peter Weir thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

Because I love Peter Weir.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

I haven't seen all the movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

But I mean. And a lot of them I hadn't seen since they came out because I'm elderly and I'm. We. I was a weird. I'm realizing now I was quite a weird child. I remember seeing Gallipoli when it came out, or maybe a couple of years later.

[David Sims]

You would have been a teenager.

[John Hodgman]

I would have been, like, 12 or 13.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But this is a man who.

[John Hodgman]

Why was I going to see the Year of Living?

[Griffin Newman]

I was going to say, this is a man who feels aligned with your sensibilities and makes movies that are aligned with your interests. Is that fair?

[John Hodgman]

To say my interest as a 12 year old was definitely Sigourney Weaver. So that cracked the code as to

[David Sims]

why I were also, you know, a bit of a weirdo. A nerdy fella, pretentious, something historical. Right. Might have interested you.

[John Hodgman]

But I said to JD Amato, I can't wait till they get to Master and Commander and I wonder who the guest will be. And JD said, I don't know if anyone will because it's. It may be David's favorite movie. It's one of David's favorite.

[David Sims]

We did see. So we did Spirited Away. Yeah, that's. That's in that conversation.

[Griffin Newman]

This is. This is the exercise I want to do.

[David Sims]

Never done Alien. But we did on Patreon.

[Griffin Newman]

We did on Patreon. I was thinking through our respective 10 favorite movies of all time, and I. I feel like we have covered most of our lists. The majority. And then the question is, what are the outliers?

[David Sims]

We haven't covered a lot of what I would call my favorite.

[Griffin Newman]

What would you put in your tent?

[David Sims]

Spirited Away.

[Griffin Newman]

Alien Master Commander.

[David Sims]

Manner of life and death. Huh.

[Griffin Newman]

We both.

[David Sims]

We both hope to do that Chunking express, which I.

[Griffin Newman]

Another one on the board someday. One car.

[David Sims]

Why, of course. We done Mohan Drive. We have never done Yee Yee.

[Griffin Newman]

No. But another word's been thrown out a lot. Okay, so four out of ten right now.

[David Sims]

Lanta.

[John Hodgman]

Malibu's Most Wanted.

[David Sims]

Malibu's Most Wanted Projection. The Malibu's Most Wanted spec sequel that I wrote.

[Griffin Newman]

And he said, malibu's second most Wanted. Isn't it nice when a title just gives you a layup on the sequel like that second succeed.

[David Sims]

But it is right there. They could have done it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, there's probably others I'm not thinking of. I mean, I don't know.

[John Hodgman]

We've done it.

[David Sims]

We've done.

[Griffin Newman]

You've often referred to as being way up there. Jerry Maguire.

[David Sims]

Well, we did that. And that is true. Right. It's sort of like. Like Jerry maguire I've seen 40 times. Master Commander. I've seen many, many, many, many. Do I think like Late Spring is one of the greatest movies every day? Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Have I seen it like, like two or three times, Max.

[Griffin Newman]

The Big ten. I'm.

[David Sims]

Because I put this movie on to.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's like I was just watching the Pit last night. Pit finale.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Anyone watch?

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

Push Master and Commander to get my BP down. Right. I'm coming in in crisis. Like Dr. Robbie would be like, get Master and Commander in the DVD right now. It'll calm him down. That'll get his sats where they need to be.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

I have done that many times in my relationship with my wife. Like, not, you know, like, I've been, like, stressed out and then I put it on and then like, 20 minutes, and she's like, that really, really did settle your mood.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And I'm like, yeah, ship is England.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. We, we have a movie coming up in a couple weeks. That is one of those for me.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But I was thinking, because, like, Toy Story 2 Ed Wood guested on by our current guest.

[John Hodgman]

I think that was the first time I ever appeared on the show.

[David Sims]

Is that right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I think so. Gosh, Broadcast News is probably in my 10.

[David Sims]

Good one.

[Griffin Newman]

Robocop. Robert.

[David Sims]

I was going to say that's sort of the Griffin episode, too, where you're just kind of like, you're Kobe. You're just like, let me have a ball. Like, it's 48 minutes.

[Griffin Newman]

I, I want to be clear because I, I, I note your sensitivity, and I want to be very clear. This is your episode. The way you talk about, like, it'd be great if we did the Muppets so I could take two months off. I want to watch you two, well,

[John Hodgman]

go off about the thing. It is David's episode.

[Griffin Newman]

It is.

[John Hodgman]

And so, and I, and when JD told me that, I was like, oh, great, I can't wait to hear it.

[David Sims]

Oh, sure. Right.

[John Hodgman]

And then, you know, I'm also, aside from being a weird only child even to this day, I'm also a great insinuator. But I promise you, I insinuate myself into things that I love.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

And I promise you, though, that I was not trying to, like, I texted you guys after I listened to the Gallipoli episode with Jennifer Ken, which is great.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you.

[John Hodgman]

And I revisited Ghibli.

[Griffin Newman]

She's the coolest.

[John Hodgman]

She's the coolest. Movie's amazing, etc. All this journey, and I couldn't help myself. And I tasted, I said, I can't wait till you guys get to Master and Commander. And then David goes, do you want to be on it?

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I'll give you a little behind the scenes here. We had been going back and forth on Is this a classic guest list?

[David Sims]

Do we do no guests? Which is fine.

[Griffin Newman]

Sometimes there is a movie like, like RoboCop, you know, where it's just like, this means so much to one of us. Do we need another voice in the room? And then when we get into those hypotheticals, there's always a Like if it was the right person.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It could add even more to the episode. It could be cheese on top of the bird.

[John Hodgman]

Look, I wasn't going to say no because I love this movie, but at the same time I feel self conscious because I have. I just want to say this to you, okay. I don't know what qualifies me to be here other than I have been on a boat and I'm very happy to talk about boat.

[Griffin Newman]

You've been on many a boat. You're a boatsman.

[David Sims]

I mean, I want to share with the listeners that when Mr. Hodgman was doing his levels, he was going through different kinds of wind.

[Griffin Newman]

This is true. And he's wearing a hat.

[David Sims]

You know more about the high seas than I. He's wearing a hat that says, very helpful.

[Griffin Newman]

Why not? And has a drawing of a knot. Yeah, this is an ot.

[David Sims]

It's a pink trucker hat.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, but.

[Griffin Newman]

But to my point, I'm sorry, I'm

[David Sims]

not sure, Griffin, but I think he might have drawn that on there. Not sure that that was commissioned.

[John Hodgman]

I had. It was not commissioned. It's not bespoke. I bought it off the rack.

[Griffin Newman]

Really.

[John Hodgman]

At the general store in the unnamed coastal town in Maine where I spend some time. It was created by the daughter of our friend molly, Lola Blake. 13 year old Lola Blake. You're going to like this, Ben. She makes T shirts and hats where she draws nautical shit on it. And the name of the line is Ship Happens.

[David Sims]

This is good.

[Griffin Newman]

This is really good.

[John Hodgman]

It's a great hat. And if you wish to inquire, I've just received an email from her mom. Hey, Ship Happens. Brooklyn at gmail dot com. That's P, R, O. Okay, people want to order? Okay, if you want to inquire. She's not. She's 13 years old.

[David Sims]

Yeah, let's not overwhelm.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, but we, we had gone back and forth, we were like, maybe this guest. If the timing worked out, there were a couple options. But we kept being like, but also, David, it could be guest list. I think that's a strong move if it's guest list. And then you had popped into my head truly the night before as like, I feel like Hodgman loves that beyond just being a man of the low seas. I think he specifically loves that movie. You sent the text. I side text David. I go, I've been thinking Hodgman for M and C. And immediately David was like, yeah, that makes sense. There was no argument about it. It was a. Absolutely.

[David Sims]

I like a comforting Guest friend. A real friend.

[John Hodgman]

I aim to be a comfort to you here. I feel sometimes I push my way through into. Into podcasts and sort of try to wrestle control. I mutiny. Do you know what I mean? But today, you are. Oh, Captain, my Captain.

[David Sims]

Relax, everyone.

[John Hodgman]

And I am your. I. I am your Midshipman Hollam.

[David Sims]

Just a shameful, I was gonna say, but that's not the guy you want to be.

[John Hodgman]

Shameful.

[David Sims]

He's worse in the books.

[John Hodgman]

Imposter syndrome guy. And at any point, I'm gonna jump off this ship with a cannonball.

[Griffin Newman]

He's worse in the book.

[David Sims]

Yeah. His character is less sympathetic in the books, but we don't have to get into that, because this is not, you know, the books.

[Griffin Newman]

How hard have you gone on the books?

[David Sims]

I. I'm not as hard as I could because there's so many of them. We're so. Okay, wait, what's this podcast?

[Griffin Newman]

This podcast is called Blank Check with Griffin and David. My name is Griffin.

[David Sims]

I am David.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's put down our violins for a moment and get to podcasting, which are playing like guitars. Yes. It is a cool moment.

[David Sims]

It's a.

[John Hodgman]

It's incredible.

[David Sims]

Greatest ending in a movie ever. This movie is the fucking greatest shit that's ever happened.

[Griffin Newman]

This movie obviously does not mean as much to me as it does to you, but I cannot deny that ending for a millisecond, for.

[David Sims]

All right. It's like the greatest ending line.

[Griffin Newman]

It's phenomenal.

[David Sims]

Perfect ending line. You're like, oh, I'm so happy. And then they're like, let's fucking, you know, have sex. AKA play our stringed instruments together. And you're like, wonderful. They're doing it. And you're like, this is great. And then he does a little violin to the side, and you're like, oh, this is so saucy.

[John Hodgman]

And then they swap it, and then. And you're like, they're going to have a million more adventures. Like, where else. Where else can this go? Are you going to tell me that the Vision is now picking up his cello and playing that like a guitar?

[David Sims]

He is the Vision.

[John Hodgman]

Like, in the. In this perfect scene. How could it get better? And he does. That's the final scene.

[David Sims]

My father owned all of these books. He was very, very into these books. And so I have them all in my house. I have read, I would say, I think six of them. I have. They are. They are something that dads especially are.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Very deep.

[David Sims]

There's 20 books.

[Griffin Newman]

There was a 21st at the time.

[David Sims]

Of his that is unfinished, and I think this is by whom? The author's name is Patrick o'. Brien. I think it's a pseudonym. And he wrote them. The first one's 1969. The last one came out 30 years later. So we wrote 20 books in 30

[Griffin Newman]

years, and Master Commander is the first one.

[David Sims]

The name of the first one is Master and Commander.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

And the name of the last. The name of the tenth one is the Far side of the World.

[Griffin Newman]

Got it.

[David Sims]

This one, I.

[John Hodgman]

This.

[David Sims]

The movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It's pulling.

[David Sims]

It pulls from various things. They are, as I think, our guest John Hodgman, who we haven't introduced yet.

[Griffin Newman]

I also haven't finished the intro, but,

[David Sims]

yes, they are very heavy on the particulars of naval life and Napoleonic procedure and all of the stuff that goes into being on a fucking boat, sight unseen. Certainly the poop.

[Griffin Newman]

That is exactly what I imagine. These.

[John Hodgman]

The ropes, the knots. Lines. Lines, Ben.

[Griffin Newman]

Lines. Lines, Ben, we all know this. Lines.

[John Hodgman]

They're called lines, not ropes. On a ship.

[David Sims]

They're very interesting. What's crazy is that the first book, Mastering Commander, is, you know, what you think it is. It's Aubrey's, only he's just become Mastering Commander. He used to be a lieutenant. Mastering Commander is like a naval rank, to be clear. It's sort of. Sort of like a captain, basically. And it's like him meeting Maturin and all that. The second book is called Post Captain, and it's mostly about them onshore while they're like, various shit is happening. Like, he's lost money because, like, the debt court is dealing with his seizure assets. And. And it's kind of like a Jane Austen novel, and it's kind of about them both falling in love, you know, like, it's just crazy that that was the second book and then the third book, like, they get the HMS Surprise, they're back on the seas. Like, the books actually do defy what you think of them as just like, dad, they are really, really awesome and interesting. But I am no expert on them. I'm. I'm not. I'm, like, not an expert on the books.

[John Hodgman]

I'm certainly less of an expert than.

[David Sims]

And I.

[Griffin Newman]

You read the first one. You said I read.

[David Sims]

I know. I've read, like, six of them.

[John Hodgman]

About half of the first one, and I realized if I go down this road, I will never get.

[David Sims]

Maybe you should read them all.

[Griffin Newman]

You got up to the Ampersand and then you gave up.

[John Hodgman]

I read the master part.

[Griffin Newman]

This is a podcast about filmographies, directors, who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. This is a miniseries on the films of Peter Weir. I tried to call it Podster and Castman or the Pod side of the cast, but instead it is called Podnick at Hanging Cast. Today we are talking about his penultimate film.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is fascinating only because it is 23 years ago. The man is still alive, and this has now become at the top tier of the films that he's known for for sure.

[John Hodgman]

But I wonder if he is even known for the film. In other words, I think that people who idolize this film in its reassessment that's been going on over the past half a decade or so or decade, think of it as a Peter Weir film or just think of it as this. A Master and Commander.

[Griffin Newman]

It's certainly a question we've been interrogating and doing this series is how many people put these movies together under the vision of one person and how they're filed in their mind. It feels like there are few people who have enough films that loom this large in the culture that the public doesn't really have a sense of.

[John Hodgman]

Well, as I've been watching them over the course of listening to you guys do it so far, I'm reminded like he, he. He doesn't have a genre. No, he doesn't have. It doesn't have like a. A through line.

[Griffin Newman]

His defining style is very subtle and is malleable.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. And he's not showy.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[John Hodgman]

Even though he is probably the. One of the most showy, not telly directors.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[John Hodgman]

That I can think of off the

[Griffin Newman]

top of my head, but in a very elegant, quiet way.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. I also think kind of disappears.

[Griffin Newman]

It is interesting to me, even just in going through these movies, how few of them at the time were really sold as. From the director of Blank and Blank.

[David Sims]

You couldn't do that with him because I feel like it would just look weird, right, for this poster with Russell Crowe's fate to then be like, from the director of the Truman Show. People like, well, I like the Truman show, but.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

That doesn't effect.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

Well, I mean, how do you connect movie Truman? Well, they both have boats, actually. That's a good point.

[David Sims]

They do both have sailing scenes.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, let me just say the Truman show sailing scene, not very realistic. First of all, it's inside a dome.

[David Sims]

Well, that's very rare point the film one might Call science fiction. Think about it a little bit. Isn't the shared thing we've been talking about with him though is that his films cover small communities.

[John Hodgman]

I was about to say that's very insightful.

[David Sims]

There's so many. But boat movies. There are so many other boat movies and I feel like there are so few that are about like the ecosystem of life on the boat that like versus this. Obviously Pirates of the Caribbean, we understand that they have it's fascinating tentacles possibly and have been cursed. And we, we do get into that life.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

But do we hear about Saluting Day? Okay.

[John Hodgman]

No, no.

[David Sims]

Does, you know, I mean, like, does. Is there a Killick type. No, there's not.

[Griffin Newman]

No. Well, because Jack Sparrow has a $40,000 a month rum budget.

[David Sims]

He does.

[Griffin Newman]

He's staying up all night with his Hollywood vampire friends.

[David Sims]

Much noodling, riffing.

[Griffin Newman]

First mate Alice Cooper.

[John Hodgman]

I wonder. Yeah.

[David Sims]

What Aubrey would make of. Of Captain Jack Sparrow if you. If he would like the cut of his jib. I feel like maybe not. But it is funny that, Right. The same year you have Pirates of the Caribbean and all the British naval officers in that. Which I think is great. Are these prigs, right? Are these like stuffy, sort of gray.

[Griffin Newman]

They're Star Wars Imperial.

[David Sims]

Right. You know, I mean, I know Jack Davenport has a little more flair and then he gets sexy in the second one and he's sort of back to being regular narrative.

[Griffin Newman]

He's got a good arc in those movies.

[David Sims]

Movies are good. The first three.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Pirates of the Caribbean did kind of this movie. Right. I mean, obviously this film was well reviewed, got a ton of Oscar nominations. It did all right. I don't think it was super expensive. And obviously the ambition was to launch a franchise. That didn't happen.

[David Sims]

This movie is a miracle.

[John Hodgman]

This movie is a miracle.

[Griffin Newman]

It exists.

[David Sims]

It's incredible. It exists. It's incredible. It was made. It was. Right. It was an Oscar contender. It like. Yes. Should there have been sequels? Certainly if 20th Century Fox had just, you know, had a stiff back about it, just done it. Because, like, it's a movie that had such a long life.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Has such a long.

[John Hodgman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

And they could have just seen that come and they could have just been like, look, Crow, he's gonna fit into these, you know, breaches for another six, seven years max. Like, let's. Let's try to get another two.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, we always point to Robin Hood

[David Sims]

is seven years later tightened up.

[John Hodgman]

You wouldn't even look. I mean, no respect to Crow's performance. Yeah. This movie, which is good. Like it didn't even tempt someone to go, why don't we do a young Jack Aubrey?

[Griffin Newman]

There have been threats recently. I don't know. Yes.

[John Hodgman]

But then someone stops and thinks about it and goes, oh, we'd have to film it on a boat.

[David Sims]

I, I think that's what, yeah, it's. How do you achieve it?

[John Hodgman]

I mean, I couldn't even I, even though I've seen this movie a couple of times rewatching it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

For this. The first thing I thought of this movie is a miracle in the sense that I can't believe it existed and it will never exist again.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

In part because those boats are, it's nuts what they did. I also think and it would be CGI now and it would not.

[David Sims]

I think that's more you could do it, but it'd probably be a little

[Griffin Newman]

but to the credit of the, the, the people running 20th century films now, don't you think they know if they made a Young Aubrey prequel that was shot in the Volume, people would revolt. They, they know they can't do that.

[David Sims]

They, there would be a mutiny. I, I, I don't think they're going to do that. What do you want to say, John?

[John Hodgman]

Mission to speak, please.

[Griffin Newman]

Our guest today is John Hodgman, by the way. Judge John Hodgman.

[David Sims]

How many episodes have you been on? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

This is your seventh episode. Not including voicemails.

[Griffin Newman]

You've done some favors.

[John Hodgman]

Thank you.

[Griffin Newman]

The, the they live subliminal cut.

[John Hodgman]

That's right. I forgot.

[Griffin Newman]

You were inside the little door in the Coraline episode.

[David Sims]

You did, of course, watch Infinity War with us on Patreon.

[Griffin Newman]

You did.

[David Sims]

Watched the movie the night before.

[John Hodgman]

I didn't realize we were going to

[Griffin Newman]

be watching a live show or two.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you've been able.

[John Hodgman]

I'm a, I'm much more of an able seaman now.

[Griffin Newman]

You're a dear friend of the show.

[John Hodgman]

I'm more seasoned. You've always delivered in the dialogue of the show. I started out as a landsman, as a lover. You're a pretty and I became a normal seaman.

[David Sims]

I, I'm a pretty normal semantic, consistent kind of one a year on Blank Check. I will say looking at your record here, looking at your record.

[John Hodgman]

Anytime, anytime you wish, I will be here.

[David Sims]

Well, you're busy man.

[John Hodgman]

All right.

[David Sims]

Take it back.

[John Hodgman]

Maintain that fiction. I'm gonna make the, I'm gonna make this case that if someone at 20th pictures like let's do another Master and Commander, it would be a failure and here's why David put his. His masterly and commanderly finger on it. This is dad. And the thing is, this came out in my thoughts kind of the last time dads were going to movies, so many dads were seeing Peter Weir movies. They're a lot about dadism.

[David Sims]

Just to get this out of the way, what would happen is a show, not a movie. They would do a streaming series.

[John Hodgman]

Yes. Well, that's the thing now, and that's

[David Sims]

what they often do.

[John Hodgman]

And I'm speaking to this from personal experience. Dads are definitely watching youtubes about sleeper cars on trains across continental. Stickers.

[David Sims]

Watch one of those.

[John Hodgman]

Right. Gondolas and funiculars.

[David Sims]

I would say less so for me.

[John Hodgman]

Dead empires. Yeah.

[David Sims]

And you think, what were the Hittites up to? Tell me.

[John Hodgman]

Exactly. And you think, I haven't been going to sleep watching YouTube videos with 3D models of the HMS Victory breaking down a classic British ship of the line of 1805. Of course. And that's what I'm doing at home. Dads are not going to go to the dads. Dads stay at home and watch it.

[David Sims]

Go see the HMS Victory, you know,

[John Hodgman]

that's what I hear.

[David Sims]

You should go. Well, where's Portsmouth?

[John Hodgman]

Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

[David Sims]

Unfortunately, my friend. No, it's in the original stop on

[Griffin Newman]

the way to Maine.

[David Sims]

It's kind of out in. In the uk.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. Well, it's a little easier. This is the point. A lot more dads would stay at home and watch a streaming Master and Commander than they would go to Portsmouth to stand.

[David Sims]

Unfortunately, they wouldn't. I think one day more dads would

[John Hodgman]

even go to Portsmouth to stand on the deck of the ship where Lord Nelson died. The HMS Victory.

[David Sims]

Yes, he did die there. The greatest.

[John Hodgman]

Than go to a cinema to watch a Master and Commander movie. I just think it's where we're at. And this is like the dad in this movie is obviously obsession with boats and procedure and all male worlds, but it's also about the dadly relationship that he has with the young officers. It is all dadism all the way down.

[David Sims]

I just want you know who Horatio Nelson is. Obviously.

[John Hodgman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Okay. Only, you know a little bit.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. Even I.

[David Sims]

And you guys don't know who Nelson is. Right. He's invoked in this movie.

[John Hodgman]

Viscount Lord Nelson.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[John Hodgman]

The guy who stands on the column in Trafalgar Square.

[David Sims]

Yes. That's. That's how I often will like. Because my wife has watched this movie with me multiple times. And every time I'm like, you get who Nelson is Right. She's like, no, don't know what you're talking about. Like, whatever you told me last time, it's gone again. But, like. And I keep trying to be like, he's the most important British person who ever lived. And it's kind of crazy that, like, most important, probably. And, like, it's crazy. Churchill, I would say, is the other.

[Griffin Newman]

That feels like the obvious.

[David Sims]

It's between the two of them. Churchill is like, obviously, he. You know, he's. He's. He's pretty cool, like, or whatever, but he's a pretty complicated figure.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, he has a. He has some. Some failures. Gallipoli among them in his ledger. You know, he. You know, guy like this grog. Yeah, he did.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, I mean, but in the morning, he'll be sober and you'll still be ugly.

[David Sims]

But, like, Nelson is. Nelson's the guy who beat Napoleon.

[John Hodgman]

Something nasty. Sit in a circle with these guys

[David Sims]

and it's like one of those things where I'm like, right. Like, only British. Every British child knows who Admiral Nelson is. But, like, no.

[Griffin Newman]

Fascinating.

[David Sims]

No other person, really, outside of Britain would care too much.

[Griffin Newman]

Who is he equivalent to? Even in, like, American?

[David Sims]

Eisenhower, I guess. Like, who's the most famous?

[Griffin Newman]

Probably. Yeah.

[David Sims]

The most famous American military leader. It's one of those guys. Eisenhower, Patton, Grant, someone like that. Washington. Nelson is the other ship captain they're talking about. Right.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. And that's kind of the beauty of all of Peter Weir's storytelling, which, in my opinion, he'll drop esoteric shit, but he contextual. Well, I mean, if you're an American. But it's contextualized enough for an American and for a lay viewer that, you know, this is like, the greatest dude that's ever lived and they're all excited just to him. The fact that he sat at a table with him is blowing people's minds.

[David Sims]

Right. You do know that there's the big column in Trafalgar Square in London? Like, there's a big column. He's the guy on top of it. Oh, because he beat Napoleon. Right, right. Which we kind of. Which we, you know, British people really like to bring up, you know, like that we. He beat Napoleon the second time. Wellington also beat Bonaparte. Yeah, Napoleon Bonaparte. Oh, okay. I was wondering, you. But at the.

[Griffin Newman]

The guy from the water park. Yeah.

[David Sims]

I mean. Sorry. His was the first time. Wellington is the second time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Wellington is Waterloo.

[Griffin Newman]

There are two things I want to say. One, about the death of dad. Cinema. Right. It does feel like that is an audience that Was lost permanently in the pandemic. That those are people who are just like, I just got used to watching things this way. It is just not a thing I even consider going to theater to see stuff.

[David Sims]

Right.

[John Hodgman]

And I can surround myself with all my dadly comforts.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And I think even through the late 2000 and tens, there would be dad hits that would punch through. And it feels like those things go straight to streaming now. And one that's really emblematic and feels like a counterpoint of the miracle of this movie being made at this scale by a major studio. This seriousness close to 25 years ago versus, like, I think, still one of the most watched streaming movies of all time. Certainly the number one movie in the history of Apple plus is Tom Hanks's greyhound movie, which was meant to be a theatrical movie.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

It was a Covid shuttle to Apple

[Griffin Newman]

TV because of COVID And he just finished filming a second one. Like, he has made this a franchise for him. And they are movies that just like, unless you are the target audience, you aren't aware this exists.

[David Sims]

I would say here are some examples of dad movies recently I think succeeded. Okay. Top Gun, Maverick. But that doesn't totally count. But it still counts.

[Griffin Newman]

The magic of that is that dad movies part of the slice versus the whole pie.

[David Sims]

Ford versus Ferrari. I think dad movie was a big part of the pie.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a 2019, though. That's a perfect example for me. But not that long ago, Sully, you know, these are movies that still, like, made 100 million domestic. And you're like, this audience is majority dad. David.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you do it. Ugh.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm doing horribly. You want to know why?

[David Sims]

Tell me.

[Griffin Newman]

Because I'm remembering what my experience used to be like shopping for glasses.

[David Sims]

Ah. Terrible, complicated, Overpriced.

[Griffin Newman]

And the glasses, the styles themselves, they felt outdated. Now you don't wear glasses. No, you wear sunglasses. You like sunglasses. Love a sunglasses. You bought the Jeff Bridges fearless sunglasses did.

[David Sims]

Or the closest approximation.

[Griffin Newman]

When you're a person with poor vision and you got to wear glasses all the time. Something that some of my friends, such as Sam Rogal, can test. They like to say I'm a faker and a phony. My glasses are off right now. I can't even tell who's who. I'm. It's so blurry. This defines me. The thing I wear on my face, the frames around the windows to the soul. It's important. It's a process you want to make as easy as possible. And that's what our friends At Warby Parker do. And boy, I've been a happy customer for many years, a decade probably now at this point with Warby Parker. This is why I'm obsessed with Warby Parker.

[David Sims]

Yeah, why you use them.

[Griffin Newman]

I'll tell you why. Seriously, nothing comes close on quality, price, selection and customer service.

[David Sims]

Very affordable, Lots of choice.

[Griffin Newman]

I got, I got the toddy and tortoise shell. I love these guys. I've had them for years. And with Warby Parker, the options feel easy, the prices are lower, the quality is good, and the virtual try on is a total game changer. You can literally try on glasses from your phone before you buy. It's wild how well it actually works. I've tried other try ons, virtual try ons that feel pretty janky. But with Warby Parker, you can genuinely tell how the frames are going to look and fit. You just point your camera and boom. You see tons of frames on your face in real time.

[David Sims]

Pretty cool, you know, don't have to

[Griffin Newman]

choose between flimsy, outdated styles or spending half your paycheck. Their prescription glasses start at $95, so you can actually get their quality. You can actually get quality and stylish frames at an affordable price. They have everything you need for happier eyes and that includes contacts, online eye exams and sunglasses. Non prescription lovely styles. They also have 300, over 300 retail stores across the U.S. if you like an in person option. And maybe the best part of Warby Parker, for every pair they sell, they also give a pair to someone in need. Warby Parker has distributed over 20 million pairs of glasses to people in need through its Buy a pair, give a pair program. Which sounds a little suggestive, but it's a nice idea and they're covered by major insurance plans. So right now, buy one pair of glasses and get 20% off any additional [e-mail] check. That's 20% off any additional pairs when you purchase one pair at W A B Y P A r k e r.comchk and now I'm going to put my glasses back on.

[David Sims]

Post Covid. The oldies aren't showing up. And we got them to show up. We got to get them to show up. But that's not going to make Russell Crowe 40 years old again.

[John Hodgman]

There's.

[David Sims]

There's no sequel. There's no perfect sequel to Master and Commander by Peter Weir with Russell Crone, Paul Bettany that we'll ever get. But that's okay because we have this movie and it ends so perfectly.

[Griffin Newman]

The second thing I wanted to say to this point, this movie's a miracle. How does it exist? Tom Rothman, who is pretty infamous at this point of being like a pretty brutal kind of mercenary, sort of, here's the future of studios, you know, he. He's not too precious about art. He wants to make entertainment. He's noting everything to death. Now he's in charge of Sony, Columbia. Yeah. And he feels like the throwbacky guy who's going out to cinema. I love being. We got to make original movies, you

[David Sims]

know, he was just a Cinemacon. Just like last week, like, stop having so many ads in front of everything. And all of the AMC people are like, shifting in their CPU windows need

[Griffin Newman]

to be three or four months. You know, we need to make things for, like, different audiences. In the 2000s, he was seen as like, is this guy too crass a businessman? And now he feels like one of the last guys fighting for integrity, but was just sort of a brass tax guy, despite being, as everyone said, a big fan of movies, very well educated. But he's like, but my job is to, like, run this, like a business. This was a fucking passion project for him. He was not applying the usual checks and balances in his head to this movie because it was like from the moment he fucking got that song seat at Fox, he was like, I'm gonna be the guy who's finally gonna get the fucking Aubrey movies off the ground, on onto seats.

[John Hodgman]

And can I say something?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

Looking at his biography here, I can tell you that when this movie finally came out, he was 48 years old in real dad territory. Is the dad to two daughters.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[John Hodgman]

He was into this dad.

[Griffin Newman]

He was into this dad.

[John Hodgman]

He's into this dad.

[Griffin Newman]

Now here's the weird parallel. I was gonna say when the story came out a couple years ago that foxes maybe or 20th century is maybe noodling with a Master and Commander reboot. There's no writer attached or there was a writer attached, no director attached. Young Aubrey, whatever it is, the reason that was happening was not just because this movie has gained such a reputation and a cult. It is because Jason Isbell, who is now the head of 20th century, his first movie as a junior exec.

[David Sims]

I think it's Steven as.

[John Hodgman]

You're right.

[Griffin Newman]

Sorry.

[John Hodgman]

Jason Isbell is a musician, I believe.

[Griffin Newman]

Different guy.

[John Hodgman]

Okay. I was gonna. I mean, I like him as tears it up on online with right wing weirdos.

[Griffin Newman]

This was the first movie he ever worked on. And so he has some weird romanticism and nostalgia for this as well. I don't think he gets it over the finish line. But it's the only reason we're even talking about.

[David Sims]

Let's move off of that because we're not talking about that. We're talking about Mastering Commander. We're talking about Peter Weir's film Master and Commander. When did you see this film, Griffin?

[Griffin Newman]

I saw this in theaters, Sure. I believe if not even opening weekend, I want to say there was maybe even like a preview weekend a week or two early maybe. Here's my relationship to this movie.

[David Sims]

Came out in November, right before Thanksgiving, 2003. Makes obviously perfect sense for it.

[Griffin Newman]

I went to see this with the off invoked. Derek Simon, my childhood friend. My oldest friend.

[David Sims]

Hi, Derek.

[Griffin Newman]

We went to see it opening weekend. The movie starts and like, three minutes. And I was like, oh, right. I don't like this kind of movie. I sat there and was, you're a young man.

[David Sims]

You're. What are you, 14? Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This is not my kind of thing. I sit there, I respect the craft of it, but there was a little bit of, oh, I just signed up for a class in a subject I'm not interested in. Right.

[John Hodgman]

What kind of movie was it to you at that time? What kind of movie was it to you when you say, I don't like this kind of movie?

[David Sims]

It's like a history movie. It's a bunch of boys. It's a war movie. You know, like, this is not a Griffin movie. Especially not teen Griffin.

[Griffin Newman]

No, especially not.

[David Sims]

There's no monsters or puppets.

[John Hodgman]

No.

[David Sims]

There's no cartoon characters.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't want to. Let's not make it sound like that's the only kind of thing I love.

[David Sims]

You were 14, though. You liked more genres.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a very stoic film. It's a very emotionally reserved, a light

[David Sims]

heart with a lot of wonderful humor to it. But yes, that's true.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's. It's, I think, very earnest dibble.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Pretty earnest.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I was not a fan of history in a general sense.

[David Sims]

It's just one thing after another. You might have said that's what James. History books.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. The history boys didn't never rewatch this movie because I was just sort of like, I respect it, but it's not my kind of movie.

[David Sims]

But you've slowly, over the years, like anyone you've noticed, like, huh. That movie gets talked about a lot. It's got kind of a cult around it. Huh. Beyond cult at this point. It's sort of like revered or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

When we become friends and you tell me this is one of your favorite movies. I'm like, that makes perfect sense.

[David Sims]

Best movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It both perfectly aligns with everything I know about you at that point and helps me understand you further. Six or seven years ago, Derek, who I'd seen it with, and we walked out, the same reaction was like, have you ever seen Master and Commander? And I was like, yeah, we saw it together. We were both bored. And he's like, I've seen it like 20 times now. Clearly it just bounced off me at the time I rediscovered it. I'm now obsessed with it. I watch it all the time. I'm like, huh? I do need to reassess this movie. But also, Peter Weir is pinned to the board as an inevitable. So I just have kind of held off rewatching it. And also the 4k only came out recently. There wasn't a good version of it for a while, what have you. So I like set it up for this moment and I, I will say, like simultaneously, I rewatched this and I was like, I totally get this. I completely get this. It makes perfect sense to me. I understand the value of this movie. It is innately not my kind of film. But I was not disengaged from it in the way I was as a 14 year old.

[David Sims]

But it's the best movie ever made. Ben David or. Sorry, Mr. Sims, that's. That's how you do it. Mr. Yeah, exactly. Had you seen this film? Yes. Okay. Because of. I know the asm. Okay, so you didn't see it at the time? I didn't see at the time, but I probably spent two or three years ago. I threw it on. Yes. And I got to tell you, had

[John Hodgman]

a big old smile on me.

[David Sims]

Loved is so comforting.

[John Hodgman]

Really. One of the most likable movies.

[David Sims]

It is incredibly likable for a movie in which like a 12 year old's arm is amputated, various people die, there's war, there's no women. Like, and I love women.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And this is a womanless movie. I was going to say consciously, you

[Griffin Newman]

know, like, that's the thing. I saw the Wikipedia noting that people vaguely complained about at the time only because there are characters in the books.

[David Sims]

There are women. I mean, like, yes. I mean they're not on the boats usually. But like there's female characters and there's. They have lives at home. Because the whole thing is you go away and then you come back. It's the naval life of like someone has to wait for your ass. Like if you like got engaged to them and you're like. Anyway, I gotta go.

[Griffin Newman]

You got Laura Linney on the phone.

[David Sims]

They don't have phones. Oh, right.

[John Hodgman]

Don't have phones.

[David Sims]

They don't have the telephone.

[John Hodgman]

They don't even have the mail.

[David Sims]

Wait, Ben, you're picking this up? Oh, no. Oh, well, no.

[Griffin Newman]

You hand us a piece of paper, fold it. Don't look at it yet. I'm not looking.

[David Sims]

Ben, I got to say, this is unrelated. This chair is so squeaky now. I need my new chair. I think I know we got squeaky ass chair.

[Griffin Newman]

What I was going to say WI FI network name. Yeah.

[David Sims]

This movie taught me what batting down the hatches means. Okay.

[John Hodgman]

It literally means there's a lot of

[David Sims]

Just hammer the hatches, close water

[Griffin Newman]

down.

[David Sims]

This my whole life going through, just not even really recognizing what that meant.

[John Hodgman]

We're going to talk about quarters.

[David Sims]

We're going to talk about shall we beat true colors?

[John Hodgman]

We're going to talk about giving leeway. All these phrases come from the HMS

[David Sims]

we shall beat two quarters. We should have started this episode by beating two quarters. That's true.

[Griffin Newman]

Sam's see this immediately and love it.

[David Sims]

I saw it at the OD and Lester Square with Howard Amos. Shout out Howard, wherever you are. Probably Scotland where you live, my friend. We were both 17 years old. It was. I think it must have been. Well, it wasn't winter break yet. I think it came out in Britain at the same time. But now I want to find out seeing this in. Back then it wasn't always.

[John Hodgman]

Must have been a very specific fucking insane in spirit.

[David Sims]

I was 17 years old. So I am not yet dad.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[John Hodgman]

And I am not yet surrounded by.

[David Sims]

Oh, for sure. It was a big deal. Yeah. No, it came out same. Same week in Britain. Yeah. So it's. It's mid November. It's November 17th or whatever is. Or you know, whatever. That's sort of like mid November. Will. And of course we'll do the box.

[John Hodgman]

This is not like a Westerosi fantasy world. No. Although that one was to American audience.

[David Sims]

Sure. Yes. No, no, it's. It's. You're right, it's a much shorter thing to walk and like we all had watched Hornblower on TV in the 90s, right. You like and of course Hornblower. Oh, Ben, you'd love it. Hornblower is a series of TV movies based on books. Very popular books. George Lucas, a big fan of Hornblower.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't you watch the Hornblower once a year?

[David Sims]

No, it's more like once every sort of five, six months with Marie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

David and Elisa. David Ehrlich and his wife, and of course, David Barty Salinas, who. He might be the biggest fan of the war blowers.

[Griffin Newman]

Very unsurprising.

[David Sims]

But this is about a jazz man. If only. Yeah. It's about the line.

[John Hodgman]

There were very strange jobs.

[David Sims]

It's about a young.

[John Hodgman]

Was the Hornblower.

[David Sims]

It's about a young Navy lieutenant, a lieutenant called Horatio Hornblower. Who? You know, the first one. He's, like, low on the totem pole, but he rises over the series. And it happened because Elisa, David Erlich's wife, texted me, like, I want to watch, like, a master and commander thing. But not master and commander, because Commander.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

And I was like, there's not much, but there's Hornblower.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And she was like, what's that? And I was like, it's this British TV thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And she was like, it's not streaming. And I was like, all right, well, I'm buying the fucking box that I have it.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Bought it now. And we're watching them. So we all watch that. We blow the horn. We say, does this.

[Griffin Newman]

Is this really, like, the only modern version of this executed at this level of quality in movies? And when I say modern, I say, like, anything post 1950, there's gotta be some other, like.

[David Sims]

You know, there's other stuff, isn't there? There's sea movies.

[John Hodgman]

Sailing, sailing ships at sea, doing cannon play with each other.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, here's the thing.

[John Hodgman]

I felt getting feisty with the 25

[Griffin Newman]

pounders past the opening title cards. The moment this movie started, I had a very clear thought. Oh, yeah, this is the only movie that gets right what it's like to have been on a ship in this time period. And then I step back and I go, I don't fucking know that I have no lived experience.

[John Hodgman]

No.

[David Sims]

I mean, I'm looking at, like, lists of Napoleon. It's like, there's not much. There was more back in the day, back in the sort of 40s, 50s, 60s, but I think most of the Napoleonic stuff back then, it's more the land. Like, there's that movie Waterloo, but that's about, you know. Okay, well, you should.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you know what I'm talking about, though? That. That sensation of seeing something in a movie that you have no firsthand experience of.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And the creeks. And you're just like, Yeah, I feel like they got this right. This feels accurate to something I don't know shit about, in a way, Like Sunshine. I. I always point to that movie. For me, versus other sci fi movies. I'm like, this is what it feels like to live in a spaceship for a couple years. And I just, I have no knowledge. I can't speak to that with any authority. But I feel the same way about this.

[John Hodgman]

I think that one of the things, I mean, look, I did not live during the Napoleonic War era. I saw this movie for the first time after I had spent a week with my family, I believe. A 90 foot wooden two masted schooner. Sailing schooner on a course that I took on schooner navigation specifically. Yeah. Because, you know, it's something that comes up a lot. You'd be surprised at how often you want to know how to sail a schooner. But the wooden boat school in Brooklyn, Maine offered this week on the Merry Day. And so I had spent time on a wooden boat and learning the pin rail and the sails and all this stuff. And when we got back, I was like, I want more of that.

[Griffin Newman]

What year is this?

[John Hodgman]

This would have been recently. I didn't see this movie when it came out.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[John Hodgman]

This would have been 2018 or 2019.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Right.

[John Hodgman]

When I was like, you know, I never saw Master in Command.

[David Sims]

You're in a boat headspace, right? And you're like, what are the boat movies? And there's only so many.

[John Hodgman]

So at that time, I am a dad. At that time, our son was not yet an adult, but was living with us. He had been on the boat. I was like, let's watch some boat shit.

[David Sims]

Does your son care about this boat stuff?

[Griffin Newman]

Am I wrong?

[John Hodgman]

I mean, I think he thinks of it relatively fondly, but he didn't get into it necessarily.

[Griffin Newman]

Am I wrong in remembering that your son went to a boat school?

[John Hodgman]

It's cool on a boat, you know, Look, I've been coy about this town, sure. But I'll. I've already mentioned it twice. So it's Brooklyn, Maine.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. You're. You're loathe to mention it.

[John Hodgman]

And there are. Well, I mean, it's just, you know, it's kind of a long running joke.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[John Hodgman]

Because E.B. white had lived there and he didn't reveal where he lived. I'd always say I live somewhere on the coast of the United States between New Brunswick, Canada and Cuba, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

And Vacation Land's only available on hardcover, right?

[John Hodgman]

No, it's available now on paperback.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, that's.

[John Hodgman]

Thanks for.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, that's helpful.

[David Sims]

I think I'm gonna start talking about my experience seeing the movie again. I feel like we got off the rails.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm driving towards a specific Point. I just remember when I first met your son that he was very interested in boating.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. They. They built. So there's a. There's a lot of wooden boat building in that community.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[John Hodgman]

And. And there was four local kids and summer kids. They all built a wooden skiff.

[Griffin Newman]

This is a family interest that runs deep.

[David Sims]

I understand. But I was. We kind of forced him to do it. Okay.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. David.

[David Sims]

Yeah. So I saw it with Howard. I thought it was great. I then saw it on a date. It's a bad idea. It was a disastrous date. Movie is quite long. It's not that long, really. It's 2 hours, 20 minutes and is about what? It's about boys on a boat. And did not. It did. No. My. My date was not excited by a master and commander. Did you out. Probably 17. I mean, you know, it's all.

[Griffin Newman]

What did. What did you deem Skippable enough for a quick makeout sesh. Oh.

[David Sims]

Oh, during the movie. No, no.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

After.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I think, because I was confused by. Yeah. The idea that you would look away from this.

[David Sims]

No, not during the movie. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That didn't sound like you actually shoot her away.

[David Sims]

I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Hodgman]

She's leaning in, but. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, my dear. I must watch.

[David Sims]

I really like this movie, but when I was like 17, my favorite movies of that year were Elephant, which was a big movie for me then.

[Griffin Newman]

That was a big one for me as well.

[David Sims]

Elephant.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Trying to think like I. David Gordon Green's all the Real Girls. Like that was a big movie for Team David.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[David Sims]

Obviously, I enjoyed the Lord of the Rings as epic conclusion and X Men 2. And yes.

[Griffin Newman]

That was way up there.

[David Sims]

28 days later. Kill Bill, volume one.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

You know, these were the big movies. I was at the time foolishly disappointed by the Matrix sequels and Hulk. I would.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

You know, I would. I would mature.

[Griffin Newman]

You'd get there.

[David Sims]

Right. Like. Right. But Master Corona was a movie I like, really liked. And I, you know, my dad liked it, obviously, as a big fan of the books. He enjoyed it. I bought it on DVD right away.

[Griffin Newman]

But it was not an immediate. This is one of my favorite movies ever.

[John Hodgman]

No.

[David Sims]

And then it just. I think as it was for a lot of people, I just kept going back to it and they kept making movies that weren't like it, which they have consistently done to this day.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Hollywood just keeps making zero movies in which Paul Bettany in a housecoat angrily yells at the captain of his ship that he can't go on the Galapagos Islands to look at cormorants because the ship has to go like fight. You know, the French.

[Griffin Newman]

This is an interesting point is is this movie is Rising Colt also a byproduct of a kind of like the longer time goes on, it is one stop shopping. This is the only place you can go to this.

[David Sims]

Paul Bendy's performance in this film is the greatest.

[Griffin Newman]

I think he's the greatest performance ever

[David Sims]

captured by a camera. Kind of the best film performance too. The best everything.

[John Hodgman]

The.

[David Sims]

The seriousness of this man, right? Like from moment one, like, just like the gravitas, just steadiness, right? You know, like Aubrey's got more bluster and Maturin's like very calm. And then like just for an hour into the movie for him to just show up in that coat with the hat, right, Ready to go, ready with his wooden cages to capture some iguanas and finally, finally admit to, you know, like, you know, show some vulnerability with. When Aubrey's like, we gotta fucking go, and he's like, you promised me I could look at birds. I need to look at the birds right now.

[Griffin Newman]

It may not surprise you to hear the Paul Bettany's character is the one thing I remember connecting with. Of course, seeing it as a 14.

[David Sims]

I mean, he actually got like. I mean, he was in the mix.

[Griffin Newman]

I was just like, I get this guy. This is the closest analog to what I would feel like in this experience. I loved him. I was like, all in a Paul Betney at the time.

[David Sims]

Yeah, exactly. He was such an exciting young actor at the time.

[Griffin Newman]

So good and Beautiful Mind. I feel like with great distance, he's arguably the best performance in that movie.

[David Sims]

Sure. You know what? I re. I. That's a movie I have not seen in 25 years.

[Griffin Newman]

A little bit terrified to rewatch, but I remember my mom and I walking out being like, who the is that guy? Right?

[David Sims]

He was. He was. He was brand new, very excited. He'd obviously been in Knight's Tale that year too.

[Griffin Newman]

And you know, and Gangster Number one was a couple years before that. But when this. Seeing this, I was like, well, this clearly feels like an anointment moment where they're going to give him a kind of Star is Born Jude law and talented Mr. Ripley, best supporting Actor. N. You've proven yourself and now you're a leading man. And instead his career, like, kind of immediately gets waylaid after this.

[John Hodgman]

At that time, I writing for Men's Journal magazine, which is the very famous national magazine Covering the trend of men keeping journals.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep. Of course.

[John Hodgman]

And I pitched a profile of Paul Bettany having not seen the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Just liking.

[David Sims]

But you're like, this character's gonna pop.

[John Hodgman]

I'm like, yeah. And they said, no, not that nerd. Wow.

[David Sims]

Can I tell you that same thing

[Griffin Newman]

to say about the man who is married to Jennifer Connelly, Although he wasn't yet.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

They were together.

[David Sims]

They may have been together because they met on Beautiful Mind.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Even though he's a figment of someone's imagination in that movie. So how could they even met?

[Griffin Newman]

They also don't have. Right. Any scenes together. But they did.

[David Sims]

Because he's a figment of his event. You know, he has no scenes with anyone but Russell Crowe.

[Griffin Newman]

I believe the story is that they, like, had a flirtation and maybe a hookup during the filming of Beautiful Mind. Then the movie's obviously done and 911 happens. And as he tells the story.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

When he sees the news on tv, he's like, all I want to do is call Jennifer. You're right.

[David Sims]

That is on his Wikipedia.

[Griffin Newman]

And he called her and was like, should we give this a go? And they were married like six months later. Right.

[David Sims]

They've been married ever since. Yeah. Paul Bettany. The Oscar nominees that year for supporting actor were Tim Robbins for Mystic river. Who wins. Well, not in my opinion. Not a very good win. Yes. Kind of a bad win. Good actor, a lot of good performance.

[Griffin Newman]

Bad 1.

[David Sims]

Alec Baldwin in the Cooler. It was the Alec Baldwin moment.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. But in retrospect, you're just like, that movie doesn't exist. It is so weird. That's his only Oscar nominee.

[David Sims]

It's not a bad movie, but it doesn't really. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember him being good in it.

[David Sims]

He's really good.

[Griffin Newman]

But it also was. It was just the moment. Him doing the character actor thing. Everyone liked him being the bear Benicio in 21 grams.

[David Sims]

He's amazing in that.

[Griffin Newman]

What I have often contended if he hadn't won for Traffic, he would have won this year.

[David Sims]

An amazing performance.

[Griffin Newman]

But he's in a dog movie. But he's phenomenal in that.

[David Sims]

Not a very well remembered movie. Jamon Honu in In America. A a performance I really like. A n I kind of love same. But another one that you're kind of like.

[Griffin Newman]

Huh?

[David Sims]

Like another performance nobody really talks about.

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of a nomination. Morning surprise. I forget to bumped out. But he was not as much in the Getting to Betney.

[David Sims]

And then Ken Watanabe in Last Samurai, which is a movie I don't love, but a performance I adore.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like. And that was kind of a nice. You know, that was a nice.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

The Globes had.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

So like Peter Sarsgaard and Shattered Glass.

[Griffin Newman]

Who cleaned up the other guy.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Amazing performance.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Got snubbed. Rude. Albert Finney and Big Fish got the Globe and Bafta knobs. Seemingly an obvious nom there.

[Griffin Newman]

Real Lifetime.

[David Sims]

And then the Oscars just, like, spurned Big Fish. Generally. They were just kind of like. Not for us. The BAFTA nominees were at Robbins.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

That's the only one it shares with the Oscars.

[Griffin Newman]

He was inevitable that season. There was almost no tension.

[David Sims]

You know, it also felt like he's

[Griffin Newman]

had a really big 80s and 90s. And here's the annoyment moment. And from the moment he gets that Oscar, his career is basically.

[David Sims]

They were like, never employ this man again.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Tim Robbins, mystic river. Ian McKellen, Return of the King. I think that's a bit of a. That's a bit of a softball nom. But whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

And the thing I find very funny is that Ian McKellen, often in interviews will say, I. I believe I'm the only actor to be nominated twice for playing the same character, which is both wrong in that other people have done it. And he didn't get the Oscar nomination, but he thinks he did. Because of the bathroom.

[David Sims]

Because of the bathroom.

[Griffin Newman]

He'll cite it all the time.

[David Sims]

Gandalf the White and Gandalf the Gray are kind of different characters in a way.

[John Hodgman]

Yes. One of them doesn't even remember his own name.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Ian McKellen, Albert Finney.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Big Fish.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Bill Nighy, who won for Love, actually.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Which is a little bit of a moment. I think the Brits getting a little too huffy on their own paint.

[Griffin Newman]

They used to do this.

[David Sims]

I mean, he's so fun in that movie, and I don't like that movie, but obviously. And it was the naive moment. We were all like, this is also,

[Griffin Newman]

like my beloved, like, Denim Elliot winning Best Supporting Actor for Trading Places. And.

[David Sims]

And Paul Bettman was nominated by baftas. It was the one he. He did get the. No, but. No. Yeah. After this, he did Wimbledon, and it killed his career. It's insane.

[Griffin Newman]

It's kind of wild, like, when it gets.

[David Sims]

When he gets the Iron man job.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, to be the voice of Jarvis. Yeah. It's kind of a. Like, you don't have any. Any fucking other going on, do you, buddy?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, because it's Favreau in Wimbledon, they were friends from that.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I think Favreau's in Wimbledon as an actor.

[David Sims]

I mean, like, obviously, he's like the villain in Da Vinci Code. Like, he was working.

[Griffin Newman]

This is what I was going to say. Da Vinci in another universe. You're like, if this movie isn't repellent dog, is this an opportunity for, like, a fucking John Malkovich and In the Line of Fire moment? And instead, it feels like there's six years where he's either just doing true paycheck shit. Like he's the villain in Firewall.

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

Or there's, like, right in Cart's another one.

[David Sims]

A guy in Young Victoria. Or it's stuff like Legion, where it's like, he is on the poster. But that's like a really odd $15

[Griffin Newman]

million screen gems movie. Wasn't supposed to be the guy. I like both of those movies.

[David Sims]

I do, too.

[Griffin Newman]

Very odd and stylish.

[David Sims]

I like both of those.

[Griffin Newman]

But it was like, okay, so this guy's neither seen as a serious actor nor a major movie star. And then he just has a run

[John Hodgman]

of being like, Johnny Depp's Journal wouldn't profile him.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[John Hodgman]

Holly was like, yeah, I guess we got to take the message.

[Griffin Newman]

This guy's not so strange. And then he has three consecutive Johnny Depp's Best Friend performances.

[David Sims]

Mordecai and Transcendence. I'm not sure the other one.

[Griffin Newman]

And also, why am I blanking on the other one here? There is a third one.

[David Sims]

I believe you.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the. The Tourist.

[David Sims]

Oh, right. He's in the Tourist.

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe he's a villain in the Tour.

[David Sims]

He's good in Margin Call, but that's a small movie.

[Griffin Newman]

But that would be the thing. He'd pop up as, like, seventh Build in a movie. Like a good dramatic scene. You'd be like, why is no one using this?

[David Sims]

He says when he got to B Vision that he. He really was like. Like just. His career was. His agent was kind of like, it's just not happening for you or anybody.

[Griffin Newman]

He directed a film starring his wife, Jennifer Connelly. Nice work if you can get it. And Anthony Mackie called Shelter about a homeless romance. And he was like, I needed to tell this story, and I turned down a lot of jobs. And I focused on this for, like, three or four years. And it went to festivals, and everyone was like, why the did you make this? And then he tells the story of his reps being like, we're dropping you. Like, you're just, you it up, man. And he's like, literally the same day Favreau called me and was like, whedon.

[David Sims]

Whedon calls him.

[Griffin Newman]

Is he in the first one?

[David Sims]

He's in Iron man, but, like, the. But he's the Voice. But, like. But Shelter came out in 2014.

[Griffin Newman]

You're right.

[John Hodgman]

You're right.

[David Sims]

It's Whedon's. Then, like, hey, by the way, like, I have this fun idea of, like, you're the voice of Jarvis and will make you vision. And he's like, well, that sounds good. Is that good? Yeah, like, that's like,

[Griffin Newman]

yes.

[John Hodgman]

This is purely speculative, but he's been married to Jennifer Connelly for a long time. First person he thought of when the Twin Towers came down.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[John Hodgman]

They seem to have a real marriage.

[David Sims]

He said he's like, had. He had a crush on her from, like, Labyrinth, Which, I mean,

[John Hodgman]

I thought he was the only one.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But, like, I hear that story and I'm like, maybe I should have called Jennifer Connelly on 9 11.

[David Sims]

Hey, can I holler at you? Jennifer, I'm 13 years old.

[John Hodgman]

I'm not. I'm not saying that the vicissitudes of Hollywood were not unkind to him, etc. Etc. Yeah, obviously, Men's Journal really blackballed him, but sometimes I feel like when someone is in a good marriage.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

That maybe his priorities are. Are different.

[David Sims]

Although she also has had an odd career.

[John Hodgman]

Say it again.

[David Sims]

She has. She's had an odd.

[John Hodgman]

I know. And maybe that's because they love each other and love spending time with each other, and they're. And they're. And they're not chasing in the way that a. A single hungrier person would be, like,

[David Sims]

I have no idea. I'm not.

[John Hodgman]

And they're dads and moms, too, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Yes. Connolly obviously wins the Oscar for the movie they did together at the very beginning of their relationship. And then it feels like she has continued to be, for the last 25 years, one of these people where I'm just like, why is everyone fucking taking her for granted? Every four or five years, she'll, like, pop up again in a way. And everyone's like, right, Jennifer Connelly still looks great, is always good. And then she goes back to being ignored for another four or five years.

[John Hodgman]

But is she being ignored or is she making a choice to just.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know.

[John Hodgman]

I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, like, five seasons of Snowpiercer showing to not work, but it just feels like the stuff isn't sticky. And then she'll be in, like, fucking

[David Sims]

Top Gun Maverick, which she's great.

[Griffin Newman]

She's.

[David Sims]

She's luminous.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And she's got incredible chemistry with Tom Cruise in that movie. Sexual chemistry.

[Griffin Newman]

I actually think it is the most successfully a woman has conveyed.

[David Sims]

She's so good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[John Hodgman]

She's that great actress.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I really.

[David Sims]

A little uncomfortable, but she's so good.

[Griffin Newman]

I think that movie has the exact right strategy and how to make you buy their relationship and what they show you and the things they're just like. We're not even going to attempt to show you this.

[David Sims]

I'm going to open the dossier and then we're going to talk about Master Commander. Yes. Okay. And pop open that dossier. All right. In 2000. Here's a curious note from a. From. This is not related to Master and commander. But in 2000, Peter Weir, Wolfgang Peterson, Rob Reiner, Jonathan Demme, the great Bad. Brad Silberling, director of your favorite Casper, participated in a creative bake off to pitch themselves as the director of Harry Potter.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

They were all part of. I assume Warner Brothers was essentially like, call a bunch of kind of esteemed Ish directors who've done big productions.

[Griffin Newman]

Can you run that list again quickly?

[David Sims]

Wolfgang Peterson. So, like, obviously he, you know, he's a big director.

[Griffin Newman]

He'd done a lot of stuff for Warner Brothers. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Rob Reiner.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I mean, at that point, he's starting to lose his luster, but he's still. He's made huge movies. Demi.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Demi's kind of a wild choice. Yeah. What's.

[John Hodgman]

I mean, that would have been very interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

This is like, who knows. Post Beloved.

[David Sims]

Right.

[John Hodgman]

But he's still Jonathan Ne.

[David Sims]

Like, you know, and Brad Siberling, who, you know is. He's kind of like a. I mean, they got Chris Columbus.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And it's like Chris Columbus is more proven than him, really. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

More emotional. Soul is a little more technical.

[David Sims]

But it's also like Columbus has just made two of the biggest movies ever with like kids in them.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, also the. The other famous story is that like J.K. rowling said, my first choice is Terry Gilliam. And Warner Brothers said, that's not a conversation.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. War Brothers.

[David Sims]

Like, okay. Thankfully, okay, lady. I mean, like, there was like the Spielberg sniffed and only wanted to do

[Griffin Newman]

it with Haley Joel.

[David Sims]

Right. And Rowling was like, I'm not doing like American Harry Potter. I'm not like, you know, she knew that he would box her out. Like, he's more powerful.

[Griffin Newman]

She also was like, I'd want to make some changes. And. And Warner Brothers was like, your job is to adapt the books Harry Potter in a way that satisfies all audience.

[David Sims]

M. Night Shyamalan supposedly was also, like, given a phone call. I've heard that, you know, and, you know, whatever they went for, like, a very safe. Weir would have been possibly interesting, but no idea. Instead, though, Weir does not win this bake off, obviously. He gets attached to an adaptation of Master and commander for 20th Century Fox. Tom Rothman, back when he was president of production at Samuel Goldman Co. In the 90s, read an Aubrey Matern book and loved it and asked Samuel Goldwyn acquire the film rights, please. So that's in 1993. The rights then cycle between Goldwyn and Touchstone, which is, of course, a Disney subsidiary.

[Griffin Newman]

This movie has three studios attached to it. It has Miramax, Fox, and Universal.

[David Sims]

Does.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

John McTiernan at one point was attached to direct an adaptation for Touchstone.

[Griffin Newman]

Makes perfect sense.

[David Sims]

Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

At one point, Goldwyn asked where to do it in some time in the 90s, and he says he turned it down because they wanted to do the first book in the series, which is like more of a young Aubrey. Like, Aubrey has just gotten his first command by 98, Goldwyn has the rights again, and he has a new home at 20th Century Fox. Oh, no, sorry. Rothman has the rights again. And Rothman's at 20th Century Fox and then Fox. He becomes president and CEO in 2000, and it is his passion project. It is like, you know, his, like, as you're saying, Griffin, like, this is

[Griffin Newman]

the one I'm going to be remembered for.

[David Sims]

And I'm going to ignore the usual studio notey kind of like, well, you know, kind of, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

Anyway, this is the one for him.

[David Sims]

Weir is always his top choice. Yeah, he's been his top choice since the mid-90s. And since the mid-90s, he's only, like. He's only gotten more obsessed with the books. He's now read, you know, the entire opus.

[Griffin Newman]

We're saying no or Rothman.

[David Sims]

Rothman, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Patrick O' Brien dies at the age of 85, January 2000.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

We.

[Griffin Newman]

As far as he knew, the two towers stood forever. He's lucky enough.

[David Sims]

He's lucky. We're still hesitant to sign on, but I. I mean, it just seems like Rothman was basically like, well, here's. Here's. Here's the story. They have a meeting, and Rothman says, what I really think you should do, and then he pulls out a captain's sword and hands it to him and says, is take command of the HMS Surprise. And Peter Weir is like, can I keep the sword? And they were like, yeah, you can have the sword. Like, you know, go ahead.

[Griffin Newman]

You also have to imagine that Rothman's basically saying to him, like, I'm going to give you full support to make the best version of this movie. You're not going to deal with dumb notes.

[David Sims]

This is exactly what we says. He says, you could not have made this without a studio executive at the top of the tree who loves the material like you. You need Rothman at the top. Every time someone's like, hey, Peter Weir just bought a million more gallons of water. Rothman's like, approved, right? So give him another million.

[Griffin Newman]

The guy, the guy with the stamp, the rubber stamp needs to be someone who understands exactly what these books are and has no temptation to be like, could we add a romantic subplot? Could we do this? Could we do that? Kind of.

[David Sims]

Yeah, there's a talking parrot. Yeah, that would be fun.

[Griffin Newman]

That was my main note at the time. Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

Ben, the name of the boat is the HMS Surprise. Just so you know.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[John Hodgman]

And if you want to know, if you want to know how to drop anchor, I'll tell you sometime.

[David Sims]

I would.

[John Hodgman]

Okay. Put a pin in it. Great.

[David Sims]

So Weir is still like, I don't want to do the first book, which has still mostly been. Every attempt to adapt it has been working. He's like, I want it to be on the Friendship of Aubrey Maturin. I want it to be on their longer voyage. You know, I like. If we're doing essentially an origin story, we won't really have that. His favorite inspiration is 1984 is the Far side of the World, the 10th book. It's where they get the subtitle, but it is not a strict adaptation. They have some of the first book in there. They have some original stuff. John Colley, a Scottish born physician and professor whose medical travels had taken him across the world before he settled in Australia is brought in. He's like a novelist and screenwriter as well. He's brought in to help. I don't really know John Collie. What are his other credits?

[John Hodgman]

Happy Feet.

[Griffin Newman]

Really?

[John Hodgman]

Yes. Here.

[David Sims]

Wow. He wrote Happy Feet.

[John Hodgman]

Happy Feet.

[David Sims]

I mean, one of the several writers

[Griffin Newman]

on Happy Feet along with the lady from the Plumber.

[David Sims]

But this is his first. This is essentially his first movie apart from a movie called Paper Mask which is based on a book he wrote.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[John Hodgman]

In three episodes of Star Cops on BBC Two in 1987.

[Griffin Newman]

What is Star Cops? Do you have any familiar with Star Cops?

[John Hodgman]

David?

[David Sims]

Sounds kind of cool. It's a British sci fi. Something from the 90s. Can't say I know this one. I was a Bugs guy. If anyone watched Bugs, hit me up. It was another BBC, like kind of sci fi cop show. It was really cool. It was set in like the near

[John Hodgman]

future because they would computer bugs.

[David Sims]

They would do like hacking shit.

[John Hodgman]

Star Cops is set in a time when space travels become common. Mankind is in the process of exploiting, colonizing the solar system. They need cops. Takes place in 2027.

[David Sims]

Do we need cops? Yeah. I gotta say, hands on hips. I'm gonna. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

A scab. All space cops are bad. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Love that. So the breakthrough is. The breakthrough is, according to Kali, seeing the film is a dialogue about what it is to be a man. We're really writing about a family in which Jack is the dad, Steven is the mom, Blakeney, Max Purkis is the kid. The rest of the crew are the teenagers. Right. You know, like, that's how they think about it. And like, I think the Max Purkis character is so vital. The boy who loses his arm.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Because, I mean, because it's a really good performance. That kid's great. He ended up on Rome. I don't know what happened to him after that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But, you know, he was sort of

[Griffin Newman]

around, you know what. In 2016, he was appointed head of acquisitions and distribution at Embankment Films. So it sounds.

[David Sims]

Oh, cool.

[Griffin Newman]

So he's just like, in the British film industry.

[David Sims]

That's great.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It just rocks that you're like, this is this tender relationship, but it's also a military relationship. Both Aubrey and Maturin have, like, separate relationships to him. You know, like, Aubrey has the, you know, navel and talking about Nelson and stuff. But then he likes all the bugs and the stuff he does with Maturin. And then at the end, Aubrey's like, you're in charge of the ship. And then he is. And then he's like, we need to fucking storm them. And he's got a gun and he's got one hand and he's shooting French people. Cool.

[John Hodgman]

When he walks through the hole in the other. Shit.

[David Sims]

And he's just like.

[John Hodgman]

With a gun in one hand. He's not. And no hand in the other hand.

[David Sims]

It's crazy.

[John Hodgman]

It's the greatest. Just do a show about him. I could.

[David Sims]

I could do a show about anyone. Killik is my favorite. My favorite is when he says. My favorite moment in Mastering Commander.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Is when he says an extra grog of, you know, an extra ration of

[John Hodgman]

Ration of rum for the two guys.

[David Sims]

And Killik's like, we're saving the rum for saluting days. He's like, we'll drink wine and.

[John Hodgman]

Oh, we'll drink wine on salute.

[David Sims]

And then you're like, what the is saluting day? And they never. It's like, you. You don't have to know.

[John Hodgman]

He's the captain steward.

[David Sims]

He's the only guy who talks back to like, apart from does it like, in a very formal way. McKillick is the one guy who's like, saving the grow. Saluting day. I was.

[John Hodgman]

Which is. It will be done when it's done. He's always starting senses which it is

[David Sims]

his s hog's face, sir. I love it when he says s hog's face. And. And Aubrey is like, yeah, that's my favorite. I. He loves sound hog's face.

[John Hodgman]

My mom. My mother loves.

[David Sims]

You hear hog face, and you're like, ah, fuck, it's hog face week. When I was a kid, Aubrey's like, bring it on. When my parents said like, what are we having tonight? Hogs face. I would be like, again, you sound another face.

[John Hodgman]

It sounds disgusting. But what it is is you boil a hog's head. The head, you take off all the meat and then you put it into a mold, and all the gelatin that's come out of the skull bones turns it into a terrine. And you slice it.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

It's cold.

[David Sims]

You spread it like on toast.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. And my mom would eat it by the slice.

[David Sims]

I personally, I love a pate. I don't. I don't. Like, I never messed up it. It doesn't sound like the greatest thing in the world.

[John Hodgman]

There was a lot of.

[David Sims]

A lot of jellying of things.

[Griffin Newman]

See, for me, when it was Monday at the school cafeteria and they served just up hog's head, I was excited. But then later in the week when you're like, oh, it's like hog's head loaf. It's hogs.

[David Sims]

Right? Right. They're using every part of it.

[Griffin Newman]

Tacos. You're like, I'm tired of it by Friday.

[David Sims]

All right. So the Beauty of Kali says the beauty of the books is the richness of the technical detail, the correctness of the dialogue. You know, the plots are good, but the incidents, the little stuff. That's why people love these books. Like, they love the detail. And it's perfect for us because we can just achieve all this verisimilitude just by using the books. Like, it's all in there already. You don't need to do a zillion. He did all the research for you. The whole point of those books is they are very accurate. Like, they are really striving for, like, this is life.

[Griffin Newman]

But.

[John Hodgman]

And Peter Veer is particularly good at capturing the minutiae of worlds, of communities and worlds.

[David Sims]

He always is.

[John Hodgman]

So, you know, it's a perfect match.

[David Sims]

It takes him two years to write a satisfactory screenplay and then he stops.

[John Hodgman]

Right. That's my work ethic. Is it satisfactory? Good.

[David Sims]

Russell Crowe comes aboard and he wanted to beef up the Maturin and Aubrey relationship a little bit more. So Akiva Goldsman, who of course had just written Beautiful Mind, does some rewrites, which is interesting because I think of Akiva Goldsmith, of course, as a master of trash, but he's also been involved in things I like. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And at this moment, he was seen as hyper legit.

[David Sims]

This is true.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Weir says his ideal choice would have been Richard Burton. Unfortunately, he was very dead.

[Griffin Newman]

Quite dead.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And also before he died, had been a little bit of a handful in those last 20 to 30 years of his career. Curry.

[Griffin Newman]

I would go as far as to say that at this point in time, Richard Burton was extremely dead, more dead than most. And that the last 20 years in which he was alive were also kind of deathlike.

[David Sims]

Exactly. I don't think Richard Burton would have maybe had his sea legs, one might say. But anyway, he turns to Russell Crowe, who, correctly, is the closest thing you're going to get to a Richard burton type in 2000. Yeah, is right. A big burly fucking man who is a great actor and a movie star.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

But who, like, embodies, like, a kind of masculinity that a lot of guys don't.

[Griffin Newman]

I was listening to the LEXG Podcast yesterday.

[David Sims]

Love the LEXG Podcast.

[Griffin Newman]

The greatest. But the name of it, it's called the LEXG Podcast.

[David Sims]

Got it.

[Griffin Newman]

The world's greatest commenter has his own movie podcast. And he was talking about he was doing kind of a new release roundup and doing this sort of like, why do I even see these movies anymore? Why do I still feel this compulsion to go?

[David Sims]

This seems to be the constant existence,

[Griffin Newman]

ready or not, to opening weekend, whatever. And then he was saying, like, I'm really trying to, like, watch more old movies and I'd love to make the podcast more about old movies, but I feel like people won't listen. But I've been. I been watching Ben hur because the 4K just came out and he was just kind of waxing about Ben Hur. And he was like. And fucking Charlton Heston. Like, we don't have anyone who can do this today. Like, no one acts like this anymore. No one can hold a movie like this and sort of know how to be larger than life, but also just steady at the center. And I was thinking hearing this right before doing the rewatch. Crow's career has been weird. Like 2001, right? You're like, this guy is the top

[John Hodgman]

of the fucking world and always will be.

[Griffin Newman]

He had three consecutive Oscar noms. He won the middle one. Gladiator was a massive blockbuster. Beautiful man was a massive blockbuster. And it was like, if this guy can do fucking big epics and intimate dramas, then he's everything. This guy's like Mel Gibson and Gregory Peck and Charlton Heston at the same time. And then he has gone off in a thousand weird directions. There is the consistency of, like, this was a reasonable hit, although obviously did not make as much as they wanted relative to the budget. And then you could basically say the same about Robin Hood and Noah, where, like, people went to see them.

[David Sims]

Yes, they did. And again, it's the dad thing we're talking about of just that audience.

[Griffin Newman]

He never hit the Gladiator thing quite as big. But you were like, this is the only guy I would argue for the last 25 years who people buy doing this type of movie. And when they try to put someone else into this, even when it is a proven actor, like, you get fucking Exodus, Gods and kings with Christian Bale as Moses. And everyone's, like, not buying it, you know? And then, like, Russell Crowe will hire a trainer and be like, I'm going to try to look like a person again for this one. And everyone's like, yeah, sure, yeah. He's the one guy who can pull this shit off in our modern era.

[David Sims]

Crow and Weir, obviously are both from Australia, but they never work together. But obviously, Crow's at this point, a gigantic movie star. He has made Gladiator. When he gets signs on here, Beautiful Mind is about to come out. He's committed to Cinderella man, which is going, at that point to be made by Lhasa Hellstrom. Ron Howard eventually makes that. That is the movie that comes. That's 2005. So that's his next movie after Mastering Commander, he wants to do Mastering Commander. And he says, can you wait while I do Cinderella Man? Like, can you wait a year? And Weir says, the ship sails with the tide. Nope, not waiting. So Crow decides to postpone Cinderella Man.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And instead boards the Surprise. And that's probably Tough on him because like Cinderella man, he's playing a boxer. Like, he's got to have the physique and all that. And you probably would want to do that. I mean, how old is Crow? How old is Crow when he makes this movie?

[Griffin Newman]

That's a great question. I'm going to guess 30. Are we going to realize that Crowe is significantly younger than I am right now in this film?

[David Sims]

Yeah, Russell Crowe is significantly younger than you are right now. He is 39 when this film comes out. So Crow is basically just like, I could not stop thinking about it. Like, and he says, like, did I want to give up a chance to work with Peter Weir? I dreamed about working with Peter Weir my whole career. Like, he immerses himself. He loves the books. He finds that the later books turn off Aubrey into a bit of a buffoon, which he doesn't like. But he, you know, he loves the character generally. He loves the teacher student thing with the kids. He wanted to show the responsibility that Aubrey has having these kids on board. Because, like, to be clear, the officer class, as I'm sure you know, these are the young boys of like aristocracy.

[John Hodgman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Who like, it's usually if you're like the fourth son, right, like son one, you're going to inherit the land. Son two, you're the backup.

[Griffin Newman]

Stick around.

[David Sims]

Son three, maybe you marry next door neighbor who's going to inherit their land. Son four, we don't know what to do with you. It sounds like you're going to a boat.

[John Hodgman]

You send extra sons. You send them to be midshipmen in the Royal Navy. And if they learn to be officers

[David Sims]

and if they, they'll rise and all that, but you know, but just they're so young. Exactly, Ben. The absolute madness of like a 12 year old outranking these like salty ass sea dogs.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And, and the way the whole like microcosm of British class happening on this ship like that, that there's no, you know, like the great subplot of where that, that does start to get fucked with a little bit with the Jonah. But generally that like those lines don't get crossed and like the boys do get to sit at the front essentially and you know, order everyone around and

[John Hodgman]

they get to wear those little hats and everyone's got to touch their hats. And Blakeney and Callumy, well, Blakeney's gotta be 12 or 13. Calamy's maybe 16. Colum is older. He's a midshipman.

[David Sims]

Yeah, Hollum.

[John Hodgman]

And he's a real loser because he's 36. Or something.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he's just.

[John Hodgman]

He's like, you know, his rating mate are all 16, 15, 14, 13 years old. He's just never.

[David Sims]

He's never gotten to jump right to a higher command or whatever. A number of historians hired to consult in the movie said that Crow could actually use his Australian accent. That that would basically be acceptable considering, like, what British people talked like at the time and things like that.

[John Hodgman]

Crow doesn't agree because the Australian accent is sort of a throwback to some town.

[David Sims]

I think that's sort of the idea. Right. Like, it's like, you know, that's around when we're starting to fucking send British people out to Australia anyway.

[John Hodgman]

When did England stop putting shrimps on the barbie?

[David Sims]

They call them prawns in England.

[John Hodgman]

They do in Australia too.

[David Sims]

Yeah. So Crow decides that'll just feel unnatural. So he goes to this kind of British accent, you know, this, like, solid upper class, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, that does feel like a fascinating version of. Even if it's accurate, 99 of the audience is gonna go, oh, so Russell Crowe was too lazy to do a British accent.

[David Sims]

I.

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe you're not going to be able to fight the notion of, like, is this guy cheating by using his real voice?

[David Sims]

I feel like he was. He was pretty well regarded for his accent because, like, the la. Confident.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the other thing.

[David Sims]

Performance is so good.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm sure. Like, he. That's part of the juice for him. You know, he's at this point a very, like, studious, obsessive actor.

[John Hodgman]

It was 2003, so not as many people were eating online. There weren't that many commenters get up in there. Like, she was starting creating a narrative saying that he was too lazy or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[John Hodgman]

But it's still. I gotta say, I hate this phrase, but it would have taken me out of it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

I would have been wondering why he's talking.

[Griffin Newman]

You question it.

[David Sims]

They made the right call. Yeah. Weir is initially resistant to Betany because of the Beautiful Mind thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure.

[David Sims]

He's like, is that too obvious? Do we need, like a fresh combo? He also thinks Betany is too tall. Like, he's like. Maturin is supposed to be the physical opposite of Aubrey. Like, Betany's pretty burly.

[Griffin Newman]

I was looking at the Wikipedia and the sort of people complaining, the book fans complaining at his casting at the time. And the other thing, that in the books, he's a spy.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And they remove that element.

[David Sims]

Well, they don't remove it because they nod to it. There's the moment early on when he says, like, they had their spies everywhere. And Aubrey's like, because, yes, often Maturin goes on spy missions cuz he's the greatest spy cellist, naturist, surgeon.

[Griffin Newman]

I.

[David Sims]

You don't got to sell me on surgeon.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, yeah, Auto surgeon.

[Griffin Newman]

But it sounds like in the books he is described as looking like Timothy Spall, that he's a little gargoyle esque.

[David Sims]

Obviously that was never going to happen. Heath Ledger was considered, which makes a lot of sense.

[Griffin Newman]

It does.

[David Sims]

Although then you got double Aussie, double burley.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, I think, yeah.

[David Sims]

Betany, though.

[John Hodgman]

Because even though, even though Betany's kind of a. A bigger guy than you think of in the, in the face, he. He's got a. He's got a fine, A fine bone, structured face.

[Griffin Newman]

You're right.

[John Hodgman]

Compared to the big hunk of like Easter hand the crow has for his head.

[David Sims]

Everyone in the cast, you know, does a boot camp, right? They do a sort of like, you're gonna learn how to sail. Bettany is like, no, thank you. And instead learns about like, amputations and how to cut up fish. Russell Crowe says that everyone, every actor should sew their character's name into their T shirts according colored, according to rank. You know, as part of like a sort of, you know, like, let's get

[John Hodgman]

into it, bonding experience.

[David Sims]

Right. Bettany refuses to do it. Bettany, he's consciously like, I want to feel apart from everyone. I want everyone to feel a little weirded out by me, you know, because Maturin is kind of an oddity on the boat. Bettany says, like, nonetheless, like, we all bonded, you know, not in a testosterone way, but you're really looking after each other. It's like 20 actors, they shoot this mostly in Mexico or off the coast of like Baja California and stuff like that.

[John Hodgman]

That's where the tank was, right? Yeah.

[David Sims]

Max Purkis was found at Eton College, Britain's fanciest school.

[John Hodgman]

He's a fancy lad. He's a fancy, fancy lad playing a fancy lad. And he vibes fancy.

[Griffin Newman]

I was curious. Sims, he doesn't seem to still be working for Embankment, but I was like, what films has he worked on? And that announcement of him being hired

[John Hodgman]

to Malibu's Most Wanted.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, so he's hired in 2016. Do you know what the first film Embankment does under his watches, David? Which is that the wife.

[David Sims]

Oh, what if there was one?

[Griffin Newman]

One of our greatest running bits. He was the one who asked the question, what if we bankrolled the wife

[David Sims]

I mean, it's one of those movies where the product. There's like 14 production companies. Like that's a classic tiff movie where you're like, I can arrive 10 minutes late, the, you know, various logos will still be playing of like Jim's.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a great way of putting it. Jim's films.

[David Sims]

I also, if you're at the premiere, there's like 10 people like, yay. You know, you know, whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

I found the Screen Daily Screen International news item about him getting hired at Embankment and it has this whole thing, you know, we nabbed one of nurtured, one of the brightest. We're convinced that he's an industry star of the future. Embankment co founder Hugo Grumbar. And I vividly recall first meeting him and thinking we've seen that guy before somewhere. Turns out he was amongst the lead actors and Peter Weir's master commander.

[David Sims]

Sure was.

[Griffin Newman]

It's funny in what is otherwise a pretty staid kind of press release to be like. And we were thinking,

[David Sims]

his face looks familiar. I gotta say, when you Google him,

[Griffin Newman]

he's got the same face.

[David Sims]

He's got a baby face.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he still looks like he's got the same face.

[John Hodgman]

I mean, did he grow his arm back?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he did.

[David Sims]

I mean, the cast, he's got three arms. The cast is, I mean, James Darcy, who I adore, is a great like British.

[John Hodgman]

By the way, I just got to say with regard to that, Ben, I mentioned to you, the boat is called the HMS Surprise, okay? It's a smaller boat of the ships of the line. The Victory, which was the flagship, Admiral Nelson's boat, was about 250ft long. Now the Surprise, which was a real boat, 126ft long. Now I don't know if that's the length of the hull bend or if that includes the bowsprit, the big long thing at the front, but it's much shorter boat. You see what I mean? Its beam is only 31ft. It's got a draft of 14ft and a half inch.

[David Sims]

You are reading these off Wikipedia.

[John Hodgman]

No, it's all off the jump. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

His eyes back into his head like Stephen McKinley Henderson.

[John Hodgman]

What's surprising about the Surprise for a boat that size, it's got not one but two Jarvises on it.

[David Sims]

It's a good point. Thank you for setting that up. I was gonna James Darcy, it's the original Jarvis. It was kind of beautiful to watch that wind up and just.

[John Hodgman]

I'm ready to go.

[David Sims]

And you know what? He's really fun in that show he is. You know what else? James Darcy is fun in pretty much everything. Anytime that guy shows up.

[Griffin Newman]

But yes, he was. He was original human Jarvis and Agent Carter, and then they brought him back in Endgame.

[David Sims]

He was recently in Oppenheimer as the guy who's not nice to Oppenheimer, and Oppenheimer almost poisons his apple.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Which Oppenheimer really did.

[Griffin Newman]

It is this funny thing of, like, I. I think of him as a guy who did not emerge until the 2000 and tens. And I feel like you often have these discoveries watching movies.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Where like, the young supporting cast of recent drama school graduates or guys who are a decade away from finally breaking through.

[David Sims]

He's a classic.

[John Hodgman]

Coronation Streets or Neighbors.

[Griffin Newman]

Like Andrew Scott being in, like, Band of Brothers, you're like, isn't this way too early for Andrew Scott to be anything but?

[David Sims]

They do a lot of BBC costume dramas and stuff. And like, Darcy, I feel like, is also one of those guys who is always on the Doctor who list. Oh, like, every time it came up,

[Griffin Newman]

like, a ton of sense.

[David Sims]

He rocks, obviously. It's so nice to see Billy Boyd. I feel like this is Billy Boyd's, like, other big movie, basically. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So I remember great Dominic Moynihan doing an interview saying that this was, like, the peak of his depression. And I think his drinking boy dared.

[David Sims]

Monahan.

[Griffin Newman]

Monahan, right. Because he was like, I have this, like, double act with Boyd and he makes these three movies together, and then I couldn't book a gig for two years. So the movies are coming out, winning Oscars and making tons of money, and Boyd's off on a fucking pirate ship. Not a pirate ship of the line. Yes. But he was like. I was like, he's going to keep booking and I'm stuck. And then basically right after this, it flips and Boyd a little, disappears a little bit. And then. Yeah. Moynihan's on.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I mean, it's not like Boyd stops having credits, but I do feel like, you know, you don't really. You don't really see.

[John Hodgman]

I got much. I gotta say, it was hard. It was. This was a thing that took me out of the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

You kept.

[John Hodgman]

See him.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

Steering that ship.

[Griffin Newman]

What's Mary doing?

[John Hodgman]

He did a terrific job. You know what I mean?

[David Sims]

I disagree with you, and I think you should apologize. Sure.

[John Hodgman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

All right. Thank you.

[John Hodgman]

I don't want to get flocked.

[David Sims]

The great Robert Pugh. Who's the. You know, who's Alan? You know, one of the other officers. Like, there's just Lee Engleby is really good. Like all the.

[John Hodgman]

All the.

[David Sims]

These are all British guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Who's the guy who jumps.

[David Sims]

Oh, the Jonah. Yes, that. The guy's name is Lee Engleby. Yeah, that's Englewick.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, that's the Engleby. Okay, okay. Sorry.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he's in. He's in one of the. Oh, yeah, he's in. In Azkaban. Harry Potter, Prisoner. Azkaban. He's the guy who drives the night bus.

[John Hodgman]

Or is he the guy. Is he the driver or the conductor?

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, because the driver is. I can't remember who the driver is.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Peter Weir made his first four films or no, four of his early films, though, with Russell Boyd. Picnic, Wave, Gallipoli, Dangerously. Then John Seal has been his guy for a while. Right. I forget. Who shoots Truman Show. Who shot Truman Show?

[Griffin Newman]

That's a really good question.

[David Sims]

Thank you. Such a good question by me. Peter Bisou.

[Griffin Newman]

Interesting.

[David Sims]

Who shot Life of Brian and a lot of stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, that's the thing that kept striking me while watching this movie. One of the guys on the boat looks so much like Eric Idle and looks at Eric Idle in makeup playing an older boatman.

[David Sims]

You're talking about Killick. That's David Threlfall. You know who he is?

[Griffin Newman]

Who?

[David Sims]

He is William H. Macy in the original British Shameless. Which back. The British one is about is set in Manchester and is also about a loudish father who can't stop drinking and his 4 billion children.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And every time, like, one of the kids ages up and is like, I want to be a movie star and leaves the show, they're like, we found another kid. There's so many kids under couch cushions in this house. But he's the. Yeah, he's. He's a great person.

[Griffin Newman]

He looks a lot like Eric Idol. And he looks like Eric Idol.

[John Hodgman]

I keep expecting him in a sketch. Nudge, nudge or something.

[Griffin Newman]

And then at the end of this movie, when they come across the French, I was like, this really feels like the rude, taunting Frenchman.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

From.

[John Hodgman]

I mean, he's wearing these weird bandages on his head. Comedic.

[David Sims]

Yes. One day, purely by accident, Russell Boyd is on an airplane going to Los Angeles.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

And they sit side by side. Peter Weir. And he. They hadn't worked together in many years. He wonders if Weir arranged it. He didn't realize it was going to happen.

[Griffin Newman]

And he starts saying, like, on the plane.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

No, he starts saying, like, I'm making this boat movie at Fox 49 11.

[John Hodgman]

So you could bring. You could bring your Naval Cutlass on

[David Sims]

the plane at the time, it's Master and Commander. He starts explaining it's, you know, scene by scene. And Boyd's like, that sounds great. And he's like, let's get dinner tomorrow. I'll drop you to the script. And then, like, you know, Boyd comes back on board. This is the first time they worked together. And of course, Russell Boyd won the.

[John Hodgman]

Had there been an estrangement?

[David Sims]

I don't think so. It's just like he started using John Seal, who was the assistant on some of the earlier stuff. And then, you know, he went to Hollywood.

[John Hodgman]

Russell Boyd takes good pictures also.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm looking at Russell Boyd's 90s, and it's like, White Man Can't Jump, Operation Dumbo Drop, Tin cup, liar liar, Dr. Dolittle. None of those movies are poorly shot.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

But I could see that guy being like this. This I want to challenge.

[John Hodgman]

Not known for their visual beauty necessarily.

[Griffin Newman]

No. And then probably there's right.

[John Hodgman]

Cool stuff to see if you were to rewatch.

[Griffin Newman]

And the early Weir films were challenging productions. That totally probably activates a guy like this.

[David Sims]

Exactly. That's like you hear about Picnic and Hang Rock and stuff of him, like, figuring out how to do stuff with no money. Right. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[John Hodgman]

Well, I just watched that last night in advance of this and I was like, one of the most visually interesting movies I've ever seen.

[David Sims]

It's so gorgeous. And they made it.

[John Hodgman]

The Year of Living Dangerously is one of the most completely different but so spectacularly shot.

[David Sims]

The air, you know, the way, you know, any movie that can make. Feel dense. Peter originally wants to do a water world thing. He wants to like, shoot the whole.

[John Hodgman]

He's also one of. One of history's wettest directors, Petey Weir.

[Griffin Newman]

He is true.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I mean, last wave.

[Griffin Newman]

He gave us the Last Wave Truman Show.

[David Sims]

Yeah. They ultimately.

[John Hodgman]

The rain and the green card apartment.

[David Sims]

True. Deadpot society set entirely underwater.

[John Hodgman]

Kelly McGill is taking a bath.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that's true.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[David Sims]

That's true. I mean, she's, you know, got to take a bath. They.

[Griffin Newman]

They ended up running around all day. Ten days on the actual seas.

[David Sims]

Well, here we go. So I'm going to tell you, like, he wants to shoot entirely on the water. And they're like, look, that's water world. You need a floating ship trailing with you.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

If you're going to do a reverse shot, everyone's got to wait while the ship, like, moves.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, like, it's like the entire night Tree learned our lesson on that movie. Like, everyone took Notes from that.

[David Sims]

And so Weir's like, fine, maybe we should build a set, you know, in a tank. And like, I wonder who would know anything about that. James Cameron.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the thing. The other kind of miracle of this movie is just being close enough to Titanic that James Cameron had done the legwork to build out the system to be able to basically shoot this on a gimbal in a tank. Ridley of a proper size, Scott had

[David Sims]

made both 1492 and white squall, I think, in a tank in Gibraltar. But that tank was in disrepair, like, only a few years between, like, Titanic and White Squall. But, like, it's enough.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Fucked up. Then they're like, are we gonna have to build a tank? And Weir's like, I don't want to build a tank. And then James Cameron's like, we. Mexico.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, I have a tank. Titanic tank.

[Griffin Newman]

I have a tank.

[David Sims]

It has a deep channel where they could put the set on big gimbal so you can, like move the boat around. It has shallow water so you could put people waist deep if you need to. In Titanic, when the ship sinks nose first, that was on a gimbal.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a spoiler.

[David Sims]

So they had to with things because of the. The way the Mexican tank was built for Titanic.

[Griffin Newman]

But to your point, David, these things need a lot of maintenance. And studios are not making like seven boat pictures a year.

[David Sims]

Maybe they should. Maybe just to keep these tanks usable, they should just make a boat picture every year. I guess there's Perfect Storm and that crazy tank stuff. Yeah, like.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, that was a lot of CGI waves. I remember when that came out. They're great waves, but I, you know, like, I. I remember talking to a visual effects guy before that came out, saying, waves are the thing. When we can do waves that are the most amazing thing.

[Griffin Newman]

And then they cracked it.

[John Hodgman]

And then they cracked it. And that's all I could see.

[David Sims]

Shooting. Shooting inside the ship. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I was just gonna say, okay, sorry, go ahead. But I just think it's interesting hypothetical to entertain. Have the order flipped and Russell Crowe did Beautiful or did a Cinderella man first. They probably would not have had a workable tank.

[David Sims]

Possibly might have gotten all, like the

[Griffin Newman]

difference of 18 months, you know?

[David Sims]

Yeah, I don't. But I will tell you that scum

[John Hodgman]

of algae on the top.

[David Sims]

They didn't want to remove ceilings and walls. They wanted to use these cramp sets to their advantage. Like, let's actually have it be like, let's just shoot inside the ship. They bought a ship for $1.5 million they moved it out of Bridgeport where it had been a tourist attraction. It had been designed to fight in the seven years war. It was in a few existing vessels that they could use. Then they make it over new engine, sails, rigging decks. Then they build a full size replica in the tank. So they have the real ship on the water. They have the replica in the tank.

[John Hodgman]

The real ship I understand to be the Rose. Does that show up? Yes, the rose, yeah.

[David Sims]

$1.5 million. Do you have $1.5 million?

[John Hodgman]

No, I don'. You know I have it. I just learned that the. The Mary Day, the two masted wooden sailing schooner that I trained on.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[John Hodgman]

As a midshipman is up for his sale for $550,000.

[David Sims]

But then, then it's like you got to park it. It's like you don't just buy a boat and then you're like great, I have a boat.

[John Hodgman]

There may be some costs associated with maintaining an old wooden boat.

[David Sims]

I mean I was going to say like if you bought like a fudgeing plastic speedboat even that it's like you got to fucking put it somewhere. Somewhere.

[John Hodgman]

No comment. But I don't have a plastic speedboat. Other. But, but yeah, good. The good news is gas is cheap because it doesn't have it.

[David Sims]

Sure. You got. The only gas you need is air gas. I think this movie was a little bit hard to make. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

What I just want to follow up quickly and you saying that if John had $1.5 million in 2003 money, he could own the Rose. Do you know where the Rose is today? It was purchased in 2007 by the Maritime Museum of San Diego and officially re registered as the HMS Surprise. So it exists permanently as the Surprise.

[David Sims]

Oh, you can. Oh, I gotta get to San Diego.

[Griffin Newman]

You do, my man.

[John Hodgman]

I'm gonna test, I think that Patrick o' Brien I had read somewhere had been on the Rose and he said this is essentially the same ship as the Surprise both historically and in his novels. Because it was a real ship that he sort of adopted to put into the novels. And they immediately he said the only thing different is a is a coat of paint. It does immediately repainted it as to look like the Surprise back then.

[Griffin Newman]

It does say on the Wikipedia By 2024 the ship was in a worn condition with deteriorating paint and timbers.

[David Sims]

Well, we gotta go through stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Also they cast the ship in Pirates of the Caribbean 4 but it's probably like some up boat, the HMS Providence. Yeah. But otherwise it's at the museum.

[David Sims]

Film has 700. Has 700 plus effect shop. But Peter Weir did not want the film to look like the perfect storm. He wanted to use miniatures and stuff, mostly for the, you know, storms and all that.

[Griffin Newman]

Weta built a. A bigoture. Right. Like a giant miniature ship. I believe I saw the Weta.

[David Sims]

That sounds awesome. I can tell you. According to Nathan McGinnis from Asylum, another VFX company, there's not one piece of ocean in that storm sequence that isn't real. Wow. CGI water is obviously more controllable, but I thought, you know, this is the more believable solution. So while they're in post production, fear begins to circulate around the studios. They realize the film has no villain. They realize the film has no romance. They could have read the script.

[John Hodgman]

Those are usually things that are in a movie.

[David Sims]

It is fair to say that this film begins with them getting their shit rocked. Then lots of things happen, but there is no more real action. The storm in the middle is an action sequence, but there's no real battles. And at the end, there's an awesome battle. But it is defying, I would say, some Hollywood kind of plotting sort of mechanics.

[Griffin Newman]

It also feels like Tom Rothman maybe consciously played goalie to prevent people from noticing this earlier.

[David Sims]

Right, right. And then, like, the movie's, like, deep in post production. The bills are getting sent and they're like, you're telling me there's no woman at all in the movies? Like, well, a Brazilian lady has an umbrella for five seconds.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. And. And they say hi to her. Yeah. He smiles. He's like, oh, she smiled at me.

[David Sims]

That shot is in the trailer. Which is hysterical.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Like, they clearly were like, can you

[John Hodgman]

put it in the trailer? There's. There is. There's going to be a colonial romance.

[David Sims]

The film was going to come out in June.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Remember this?

[David Sims]

We wanted more time for effects, so they push it to November. That does mean that their lunch gets eaten by Pride to the Caribbean or

[Griffin Newman]

whatever, you know, which comes out in July.

[David Sims]

Although that was obviously another film that the studio was like, why the did we make this boat movie? We're about to be in so much trouble.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, there was this. I. I remember in the lead up to that movie, Pirates. Yes.

[John Hodgman]

There was a. It was a curse of pirate movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Well beyond just, are they really fucking gonna make movies out of rides now? We had no idea how bad things were gonna get.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That things would be based off.

[John Hodgman]

We were.

[Griffin Newman]

Movies would be based off things that

[John Hodgman]

had even sniffy about shit at the time.

[Griffin Newman]

But there was also this like Disney spending $150 million on a pirate movie. Every pirate movie has flopped for the last 40 years. And I remember trend pieces that were like, here's everyone who has tried and failed to make a pirate movie since the 50s. This is a losing effort. So the fact that then Pirates of the Caribbean. This is where I argue the movie got a little fucked by it is that the fact that Pirates of the Caribbean overperformed so wildly then made people go like, oh, the boat curse is gone.

[John Hodgman]

Right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

I mean, but a rising tide did not raise all. Exactly in this case.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I think this movie would have been viewed as more successful had Pirates of the Caribbean not raised the tide, the stranger tide, definitely.

[David Sims]

Because it makes 93 domestic, 211 worldwide and gets 10 Oscar nominations, which I'm sure Fox was fairly happy about.

[Griffin Newman]

It wins best director at the BAFTAs.

[David Sims]

Is that right? Is that so?

[Griffin Newman]

Yep. He beat Jackson.

[John Hodgman]

I'm not steeped in the financial business of Hollywood, but I would imagine that at that box office, given the amount of investment and the difficulty of making the movie, everyone except Tom Rothman felt like we just escaped by the skin of our teeth.

[David Sims]

I think a little bit. I think the Oscar nominees.

[John Hodgman]

We did it. Let's move along.

[David Sims]

I think the Oscar noms made it a kind of like, well, look, we made a prestigious, well received movie. So like, okay, but no, no one is like, yeah, you're right, he won't Best Director.

[Griffin Newman]

I was surprised to see that.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This movie also had like an incredibly well selling dvd.

[David Sims]

No, that's the thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Even as much as the cult grew over time, there was that like a. Made immediate two disc kind of. This is one of those film school in a box DVD releases with every detail about the making of the movie that sold incredibly well. But I think yes, it was sort of like, Tom, we let you do this one time, it did not make you money. Where the. The argument is over.

[John Hodgman]

It would have taken you money to continue making these movies.

[Griffin Newman]

The other part of it is right, everyone had a difficult time making it and, and Peter Weir and Russell Crowe notoriously were always kind of.

[David Sims]

But heads, I think, I mean there's nothing in the research about that, but I have heard occasionally that Russell Crowe has a bit of a strong personality.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And of course, right. Hawk, Ethan Hawk did say later in life, like, I think working with Jim Carrey and Russell Crowe like really like broke Peter's back a little bit and

[Griffin Newman]

Johnny Depp's the Other one on Shantan, which doesn't happen.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But that he did two years of development on Shant.

[John Hodgman]

Oh, that Ethan Hawke.

[David Sims]

So the year is.

[Griffin Newman]

I will say no. A couple people have worked on this movie, have, off the record, sent DMs to myself and other people involved with the podcast and have shared Russell Crowe anecdotes that I'm not going to share here, but just a lot of, like, have you heard that story about this fight they got on? He. It feels like they were just constantly locking horns. And this is a moment where Russell Crowe feels unstoppable.

[David Sims]

It is his apex in terms of that power.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Because like, this movie, like, Beautiful Mind doing so well.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's like, wow, can this guy do anything?

[Griffin Newman]

Did he almost win two best actors in a row?

[David Sims]

Most did.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And then like, Master and Commander does, like, good, but okay, because. And like, the. The poster's his face.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, then Cinderella man, similarly was like, definitely a hit, but not a mega. They wanted.

[Griffin Newman]

He also never gets an Oscar nomination again. And this year, people were like, he's on the bubble. He might make it to the five. On the strength of the movie. Didn't happen. Cinderella man, it was like, he maybe gets in there just because everyone loves Russell Crowe and he got all these precursors, doesn't get in, never gets close to an Oscar.

[David Sims]

I would say he never got even close again. I mean, his best performance after this is obviously the Nice Guys, which he's so incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's also the turning point where you look and it's like Noah's 2014 and 2016. He shows up in the Nice Guy looking like a grizzly bear, and it's like, this is who he is now.

[David Sims]

That's who he is.

[John Hodgman]

No, because 2014.

[Griffin Newman]

2014. I know it so much later than I remember.

[David Sims]

That's his last. Earlier than I remember proper. Like, Russell Crow is starring in a big hit movie and it's.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the end of the 4 of what we're talking about, of him being the last of kind of the old school epic Movie Stars 100.

[David Sims]

Because, like, the year after Nice Guys is the Mummy, where it's like, you are second banana to cruise here, like, at best. And then, like, he just enters the phase he's in now, which begins really when he plays Jor El in Man of Steel, which is the year before.

[Griffin Newman]

Know it.

[David Sims]

Yeah. But like, of like, yeah. You play dad.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Mentors, villains. If you're the lead. It's a trashy movie, like, unhinged or the fucking Exorcist. One or the other exorcist.

[John Hodgman]

One Pope's Exorcist?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, the Pope. Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

I figure he probably hires a good one.

[David Sims]

He's a little. Does things a little differently. It's kind of like when the Pope needs a really, really nasty exorcism.

[Griffin Newman]

Is the other one called the Last Exorcism?

[David Sims]

It's just called the Exorcism.

[Griffin Newman]

He did another exorcist movie, like, within two years of the Pope's Exorcist. That's about him playing a guy who plays an exorcist in movies. An actor.

[David Sims]

Correct.

[Griffin Newman]

And then gets drawn into a real exorcism. He needs to make a third now. He can't just stop at 2.

[John Hodgman]

He's not the same character, though.

[David Sims]

It's not entirely unrelated, relatively forgotten movies. He's a guy who works all the damn time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[David Sims]

It's like. It's not like Hollywood's forgotten about Crow and it's not like Crow's forgotten about movies.

[John Hodgman]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

He works constantly and he still will be in big things. It still kind of means something to be like and Russell Crowe in a movie.

[David Sims]

Right. Shall we set the sails? Yeah. No. Okay, so the year is 1805. Napoleon is master of Europe. Only the British fleet stands before him. Oceans are now battlefields. This is not important to the movie, really, but, like, this is set basically at the sort of peak of Napoleonic power, 1805. Like, it is possible that Napoleon is going to conquer essentially the world, if you know what I mean. Like, you know, him losing the Battle

[John Hodgman]

of Trafalgar, by colonial extension, the world.

[David Sims]

Right. Like, this is Napoleon being like, I'm gonna conquer the United Kingdom. And he loses at the Battle of Trafalgar. And that's sort of like.

[Griffin Newman]

That was kind of his Waterloo, right?

[David Sims]

Well, his Waterloo is actually the Battle of Waterloo.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a joke.

[David Sims]

Seven years later.

[Griffin Newman]

I just watched some credit for Scotty Pippening you on that one.

[David Sims]

Great joke.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you.

[David Sims]

The Napoleon accords continue for 10 years. Like, they keep fighting and all that, but, like, this is sort of the moment where it's kind of like, is this it? You know, is Britain finally going to get conquered? Britain had stood unconquered for 700 years. Basically, we're on about 28 guns, 197 souls. This is true. I are in the northern coast of Brazil. They sure are.

[John Hodgman]

It sounds like a lot of guns and souls, Ben.

[David Sims]

It's actually kind of a small ship.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

The surprise, obviously, is Supposed to. Is pursuing the privateer Aaron, the French. Privateer. Privateers are kind of shady. They're pirates, basically. They've been contracted by government licensed pirates. Unfortunately, I think I might have been a privateer if I was alive in these days. I have to admit it.

[Griffin Newman]

I think, John, with all respect to your skills and your experience, such as they are, as a boatsman, as a.

[John Hodgman]

As an able seaman, I do think

[Griffin Newman]

Ben would do the best of the four of us if dropped into this time.

[John Hodgman]

Oh, I agree.

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I'd be. What do we have to be?

[John Hodgman]

I'd be grabbing a cannibal and cannonball and running to the side immediately.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[John Hodgman]

I would know immediately.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm. I'm thanking a little kid for always being nice to me and then jumping off the side of a ship. That's what I'm doing.

[David Sims]

I'm like. Immediately I'm like. Like, point me in the direction of the cannon. Yeah, I'm ready to go.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right.

[David Sims]

I would not want to be near the job. You would want canon man.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. Cannon man. You want to light it or do you want to shove the things down?

[David Sims]

I want to light that.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. Right. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I think if a wormhole opens and Ben gets dropped onto a ship in this era, he is within six months, the king of a country.

[John Hodgman]

Probably so. Probably so.

[David Sims]

Oh, you think he would rally the men?

[Griffin Newman]

I. I think he could rally anything. I think he would know how to talk to these people in a way that we would fail.

[David Sims]

We're on the boat. Just throw a dirty joke. I just want to say something. Like, we see Killick getting an egg out of, like, these little pens that clearly have the chickens in them.

[John Hodgman]

Well, this is what Peter Weird does.

[David Sims]

This is what I'm talking about.

[Griffin Newman]

This.

[David Sims]

We see these two boys set some

[John Hodgman]

tables in his movie.

[David Sims]

You know, it's the middle of the night, so the, you know, the midshipmen are in charge of, like, Aubrey's taken, you know, taking some rest.

[John Hodgman]

Rest.

[David Sims]

You know, so we've got Hollam and Killick and, you know, the kids.

[Griffin Newman]

Can we talk about the creeks and groans?

[David Sims]

The. The sound of the film is unbelievable.

[Griffin Newman]

Mr. Hodgman, this film gets 10 Academy Award nominations. Yeah. Unfortunately, this is the same year as Lord of the Rings, Return of the King.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Which was just. Everyone basically decided.

[John Hodgman]

That's right.

[Griffin Newman]

We have to reward the trilogy. We're giving this.

[John Hodgman]

They spilled their able semen over.

[David Sims]

It's a clean sweep.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Steven Spielberg.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It dominates basically all categories.

[John Hodgman]

Bad luck for the surprise. There's a Jonah on board.

[Griffin Newman]

This wins cinematography and sound mixing because those are two of the only categories Lord of the Rings isn't nominated in.

[John Hodgman]

Oh, really? Yes.

[David Sims]

I still don't know why it wasn't nominated for sound editing, because the Rings has very good sound editing. I don't really know the answer to that question.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But this did win that.

[Griffin Newman]

The sound in this is unbelievable.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

It jumped out to me really fucking hard watching it this time.

[David Sims]

Vital.

[John Hodgman]

Well, one of the reasons I think it is so impressive in the sense that it leaves an impression, is that these boats have no engines. And so it is the balance of silence and sound and the alien feeling of hearing those sounds, because it is not something that most people have experienced being on a ship of that size and making those little sounds.

[David Sims]

It is also very important because the reason Hollam is being summoned to the front of the ship at the start of the movie is the watchman is like, I think I heard a bell.

[John Hodgman]

Right?

[David Sims]

He thinks he heard a ship's bell. Like, he didn't even see a ship. He just heard something. And they're kind of like, you know, all right, what is this? He says, the lead, if you please. What's the lead?

[John Hodgman]

So, Ben, the lead is literally a big hunk of lead at the end of a very long line, and there's a depression in the bottom of it. So imagine, like, it looks like this can of cold brew coffee, and there's a little depression in the bottom of it. And when you want to know what the surface below you is like, you drop the lead. It hits the bottom of the ocean floor. Wherever you are, it tells you how deep it is. And when you pull it up, the condition of the floor is like. It picks up dirt.

[David Sims]

Right.

[John Hodgman]

You like dirt, right?

[David Sims]

Sure.

[John Hodgman]

This is ocean dirt.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[John Hodgman]

And the wettest of dirt. It might be gravel. It might be mud and shells. This is when you're anchoring. You need to know what the condition of the sea floor is so that you know, first of all, how deep it is. So you know how much anchor road to pay out.

[David Sims]

The answer is five fathoms.

[John Hodgman]

Just five fathoms in this case. And a fathom, I think, is six feet.

[David Sims]

I couldn't tell you. I mean, I love that they show you them calculating knots later on, like, with knots. The up way they had to do that, where it's like, there's three. There's the.

[John Hodgman]

The.

[David Sims]

The. The rope with the knots tied in. And then a guy doing this work in this movie is crazy.

[John Hodgman]

It's messed. It's incredible.

[David Sims]

It is perhaps the most impressive rope work guys ever done. What's the left and what's the right, Gordon? Starboard.

[John Hodgman]

Excuse me? At this time it would have been starboard and larboard.

[David Sims]

Oh, is that so?

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, that's kind of dorky. They changed it to port because they're like, we don't know what we can't

[David Sims]

hear and help me out here, forecastle. But how did they say foxhole?

[John Hodgman]

Foxhole.

[David Sims]

Foxhole. Like the way. Like what. Why. Why they. Why they do it?

[John Hodgman]

Why they do it? I do not know. But yes, the. The front of the boat is called

[David Sims]

the forecastle, but you spell it fo, Apostrophe. C. Apostrophe. S. Apostrophe. Ellie.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Which is sort of pronounced voxel or.

[John Hodgman]

Or sometimes they spell it forecastle, but you still pronounce it foxhole. And the top. And the top. Top mast is called the top gallant, but they call it the gallant.

[David Sims]

Now.

[John Hodgman]

Is the stun sale is called a stunsil.

[David Sims]

Is the poop deck what I think it is? No, it's one of my favorite Simpsons lines. When. When Homer joins, he's like in a submarine. Remember that episode? It's kind of like when the Simpsons is starting to get stupid.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? Homer can do anything.

[David Sims]

Right? Exactly. Is the poop deck what I think it is? I'd be like, the admiral guy is like, I like the cut of your gym. And Homer's like, what a gif.

[Griffin Newman]

May I say a thing about the sound?

[David Sims]

Of course.

[Griffin Newman]

When. When Ben Murray and I went to Los Angeles last summer for the American cinema Tech friend of the fest, we went to the Academy museum that has a room to try to explain to you the art of sound in movies where they show you like a 15 minute featurette with Peter Weir shot like two or three years ago. It's using behind the scenes footage from the time of filming, but it's him speaking more recently and all of his team explaining the art of sound design in a movie using this film. It is a thing that I think is exclusive to the Academy museum was made for them. And they have all these signs saying, like, you can only see this here. But the thing he said that has stuck with me was he had his team, you know, they went to the books, they looked through all the books and anytime a sound was described and said, that's what we got to replicate. Right. Let's really get into the specifics of what he is trying to evoke of these noises. They sort of put together a test sample kind of here's sort of what we're thinking is the soundscape for this movie. And they show it to him, and he's like, that's fucking great. I love that. Keep going. Awesome. And then they work on it and they refine it, and they bring it back to him, and they show it to him, and he's like, I think the last version was better. And he said the realization he made was that they had with the extra time and giving it, you know, doing the real version had worked really hard to justify every single specific sound. They looked at every element on screen, and they were like, we have to account for that and that and this and the timing and this and that. Versus the rough pass version they did was just sort of like, these are the kind of sounds we want to have, like, circulating around. And he was like, when it became too justified and you were trying to account for everything, it was cacophonous, and it didn't work right. There was something kind of expressionistic to the feeling of what they showed me the first time. And I was like, literally, just go back to that version. Delete this new file. Go back to that and do the rest of the movie that way. So it's kind of freestyled a little bit, as much as it's based on a lot of research. And with intentionality, he was like, don't worry about completely matching on screen.

[John Hodgman]

Action. Yeah. And, you know, like, again, this is a completely world that is pretty alien to our experience in this year. And in a sense, you have to be impressionistic because a lot of the sounds that they might have been larding up the soundtrack with would be sounds that the sailors had stopped hearing long ago because it's idle background chatter to them, Whereas the sound of a bell in the distance.

[David Sims]

You hear the bell.

[John Hodgman]

This is one of the things he comes out.

[David Sims]

Hollam can't defend himself. He's an early example, him not having a bit of a backbone, where he's like, well, I saw a shape maybe over there. And Aubrey's like, okay, well, you did you beat to quarters, but did the right thing. Everyone's winding down. And then Aubrey does the one, like, one last look, you know. Right. You know, like, he's almost done. And he's like. And then you just see the sail for, like, one second because it's being lit up by the cannon, and it's

[John Hodgman]

like, you don't fear the cannon. No, it's just such an incredible.

[David Sims]

That's in the books a lot. He really talks about, like, the in the books, like the sound. The way the sound, right, would hit

[John Hodgman]

after the can of fire tends to travel faster than sound. So you see the muzzle flash in the fog and it's just so. It's such an incredible way to open a movie where you're learning so much, right? In such a. In such a.

[David Sims]

Let's see them all go to action now.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. And you know, you're learning so much about how this world works in a completely non intrusive and non screenplay way. Not only are you learning about who Hollam is, immediately the efficiency and the economy which Weir introduces and guides the eye in a way that is not.

[David Sims]

To give you an example, it is really sweet. You see guys start to man the cannons, right? You get that. You see the guys in red coats now, Ben, have you noticed that there are some guys and Griffin, everyone in red coats on the ship. That's the army. They live on the ship too. Okay. But they're not in the Navy. They're kind of their own thing on the ship. They're.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Marines. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, they're for fucking invading shit, you know, for the battle.

[John Hodgman]

So the most of the crew on a ship like this would be gunners, your pals. Because it takes three or four guys to operate a single cannon and there are 28 of them. So they're all sleeping in those hammocks above their cabinets because it's. The ship is just packed with these guys. And then there are the sailors, but

[David Sims]

they're not like, deal with the sails.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, they're in the Navy, but they're. They're not trained hand to hand combatants necessarily. The Marines, the Royal Marines are the

[David Sims]

guys who have the, you know, bayonets and your.

[John Hodgman]

They're the. Yeah. And then. And they're the ones who literally beat to quarters. When you call beat to quarters, one of the Royal Marines bangs a drum. He beats the drum and quarters describes the rhythm that he beats, which alerts the whole ship that they're going to battle stations.

[David Sims]

Aubrey, you know, he's like, run up her colors. One of the kids is like, yes, sir. Yes, sir. You know, they're putting up. And then Killick, I love this, gives him his hat where it's like, okay, we're going from like we heard a sound mode to hat mode. Yeah, you got to put hat on now.

[John Hodgman]

Shit's fucked up, right? On the ship. Yeah. Ship happens.

[David Sims]

And then the guy goes like this and what's on his hands?

[John Hodgman]

So the. Oh, the tattoo.

[David Sims]

Hold fast.

[John Hodgman]

What is that? What is that guy? That.

[David Sims]

He's that guy.

[John Hodgman]

He's the guy who gets the dent in his head and then gets a coin and becomes the dread prophet of the ship.

[David Sims]

Correct.

[John Hodgman]

What's his name?

[David Sims]

I forget his name. He's obviously my husband and best friend, but I don't know his name.

[John Hodgman]

But why don't you get that tattooed on your fingers, David?

[Griffin Newman]

That's a really good question. That should be your first tattoo. If you were ever going to get a tattoo. I feel like it would.

[David Sims]

I think it might be a little bit stolen valor, given that I am not a naval person. This. Hey, I don't think I really have enough of a sort of sea. You know, history.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a general enough term. You can create a navel. You did it for a little saltier. You can just say, I like holding things quickly.

[John Hodgman]

You know, I'm gonna scam you up to Maine one of these days. The point is the ocean is a metaphor.

[David Sims]

I'm trying to think. Well, this is England, of course.

[Griffin Newman]

And I also heard that oceans are now battlefields.

[John Hodgman]

I think this ship is. England is technically a metonym. Right.

[David Sims]

Right.

[John Hodgman]

I'm out.

[David Sims]

So they get their ship rocked and it's like very. Their ship and their ship rocked and it's very intense battle sequence. People get bloody, people die, obviously, you know, boy loses a limb. All this. Right? All this insane stuff happens. We're introduced to Maturin where he basically clears all his shit off the table. Cause it's like I'm gonna be operating on people. Put sand on the floor so you're

[John Hodgman]

not slipping around on the blood.

[David Sims]

So.

[John Hodgman]

And also the water.

[David Sims]

And yet there's also this kind of. Like everyone's kind of calm. Like, you know, like it's. You know what I mean?

[John Hodgman]

Like, I'll tell you, I was not common.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, this is just their. This is their daily life.

[John Hodgman]

Their life.

[Griffin Newman]

They train for this moment.

[John Hodgman]

It's not their day. Or maybe their monthly. Monthly, or maybe their yearly life. And one of the things that I love about this movie is that unlike any other ship movie that I've ever seen, whether that is a sailing ship or a motor ship or a spaceship or friendship. When you're in space or at sea in that ship, the world is small. You're constantly running into other ships. Sure, there are aliens coming this way or that, whatever. And this movie really captures the vastness of the ocean and frankly, the absurdity of their mission.

[Griffin Newman]

And that a lot of times it's just going to be another day on A creek and ship it.

[John Hodgman]

Like, their mission is to find that. What do they call it in English? The Akron.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

And then it's Acheron, French or whatever. But it's like this. This French privateer has been harassing ships. Go get them.

[David Sims]

Yeah. He's basically up and down the coast, right? Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

You know how big the Atlantic Ocean is?

[David Sims]

I don't know, like 20 to 30ft.

[John Hodgman]

It's like. Yeah, maybe. Maybe 50. The idea that you're going to find this thing is itself insane. And if it turns out that the Asheron hadn't been looking for them too, apparently, or at least spotting them and wanting to get them.

[David Sims]

The idea is that, as they sort of allude to, is like the Asheron knew where they were going to be. Essentially. That's what they're kind of guessing at. They came upon us in the fog.

[John Hodgman]

It's incredible. And the idea that they're even going to find each other, never to even bother having this battle is like it could take weeks or months before it ever happened. And those slow speed chases. It conveys not only the size and the isolation of this wooden world they live on, but also, I think, all of this humanity. This is what I was thinking of as those cannonballs were coming through. Right. All of this human ingenuity that goes into building the ship and manning the ship and sailing the ship and everything. It's all packed into this microscopic dot on the ocean.

[David Sims]

The way they portray the maintenance of it, too.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

No, it's so interesting and not a thing I've really ever thought about.

[John Hodgman]

And you look at this ship and it's like every. Every inch of it is this amazing piece of human craft work. The molding in the captain's day cabin, it's like. And it's all getting blasted to shit by these cannons.

[David Sims]

It's really rude.

[John Hodgman]

All this work has gone into making this thing. And only French. Human ingenuity and murderous intent.

[David Sims]

British Navy. They would just say, could you please stop? And people would. You know, they never fired cannons at anybody.

[Griffin Newman]

I was thinking this during Gipoli 2,

[David Sims]

that nine dead, 27 wounded. Just to tell you. Is the. Is the count what happens in G?

[Griffin Newman]

No, just that, like with the. The senior officers who you see at like the top of the hill watching the young boys do the basic training. You're like the ornateness of their uniforms. This sort of like lost notion of the military has to look really fucking fancy.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Like there's. There's the battle we're waging, but also it's like we Want to impress people with our class.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you got to have nice unit.

[Griffin Newman]

We want to beat their asses. While also seeming more sophisticated and cultured. Place.

[David Sims]

The whole fast guy's name is Place because it's when they're looking at the casualties, after, you know. You know, we're in casualty mode now. They drag the boat essentially away with row boats.

[Griffin Newman]

What is casualty mode?

[David Sims]

I just mean, like, it's just like, after the fact. Like, they're. They're counting. You know, you see the guy who's, like, pumping water out, you're counting the casualties. Yeah. Nine people are dead. Maturin walks Aubrey around and he's like, you know, Place has got a fucking skull fracture or whatever. He probably will die. Turns out he doesn't. They go see Blakeney, Max Purkis, who's. Whose hand. His arm is messed up. And Maturin says, like, I know you know this boy's father, right? Like, I'm doing everything I can. Like, I don't.

[John Hodgman]

Does this character show up in the books later? Is this a character from the books, Blakeney, in your memory?

[David Sims]

I do not want to mess up anything here. I know. I'm sure there are and there isn't. There is, of course, an Aubrey and Maturian wiki that I can consult for this.

[John Hodgman]

So let me check.

[David Sims]

William Blakeney. Yes. He is in the movie. That's it. He's creative for the movie.

[John Hodgman]

He's creative for the movie.

[David Sims]

That's what I thought. I mean, I think there's a lot of characters like this.

[John Hodgman]

Well, good job.

[David Sims]

I don't know the full extent. I think the o' Brien fans generally think positively of this movie because imagine how bad an adaptation could have been. But I'm sure if you are intensely nerdy about the books, the movie is. It only can do so much for you. Maturin never does any spy stuff in it. Blah, blah, blah. They never go to shore. You never understand the complex nature of being in the Navy and how your money, the money you made was based on the boats you captured and the treasure you got. Basically.

[John Hodgman]

That's why they keep talking about the prize, the prize that we're going to get if we get.

[David Sims]

It's not about, like, making a salary. It's all, like, you earn your keep by, like, fucking up other shifts and stuff. Like, it's such a crazy system.

[John Hodgman]

You're cannoning on commission, Ben.

[David Sims]

But you're getting rum, too. Yeah, but you know why they drink rum? Because they get fucked up. Well, that's true.

[John Hodgman]

Fucking boring.

[David Sims]

Because like, you could keep fruit in it and stuff. So, like, it would be, you know, it's sort of nutritionally good, but I think also, like, it would last. Right. Like, isn't that. Isn't that the whole thing with rumors Rum? I'm not a rum guy. I will say I. Like, I'm rarely getting a rum. Yeah. From time to time.

[Griffin Newman]

But that's the only context. Kind of the same.

[John Hodgman]

Who was the ship's mixologist on the Surprise?

[David Sims]

I mean, it was the guy with the wax.

[Griffin Newman]

I feel like we're both going for the same.

[David Sims]

I feel like these days, it's the

[Griffin Newman]

guy dressed like Ryan Reynolds. And if.

[David Sims]

Imagine if you were like, what's your drink? And you were like, rum. Like, I would just be like, what do you mean rumors rum.

[Griffin Newman]

Straight rum.

[David Sims]

Yeah. What do you ever write? Rum on the R. That's a good rum and Coke. So that's like a. That's like sugar.

[Griffin Newman]

It's. That's what I was going to say. It's the same with Tiki drink. Anyone who's drinking rum is combating rum with so much sugar and fruit.

[David Sims]

Right. I mean, like, if I'm at poolside, I guess I'll. I'll take a rum drink.

[Griffin Newman]

But do people. I'm sure the answer is someone. Yes. But, like, how many people sit at a bar and go, like, can I have four fingers of rum neat?

[David Sims]

I mean, maybe I should. Maybe I should see what happens. And there's like, spiced rum and all that stuff. That's like. That stuff's nice.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, we should, of course, pop over

[John Hodgman]

to Sunken harbor after this.

[David Sims]

I mean, they. They. They certainly. They're car.

[Griffin Newman]

It's easy to go yo, ho ho mode over there at the Sunken Harbor Club.

[David Sims]

So then everyone gathers and it's basically. They're basically like, look, we rock. We. We love. You know, we love to be on the HMS Surprise, but, like, the ship that just beat us is a better ship. It's bigger, it's faster, it's more powerful. We cannot try to engage this ship. It's very important, I think, to this movie because it lays out Aubrey and Matern's relationship immediately, where Matern's the only one who's kind of like, I mean, pardon me, but are we not on something of an aged ship?

[John Hodgman]

Boy, does Russell Crowe get mad at that.

[David Sims]

It is the best. It should be Crowe's Oscar clip for the Oscar he should have won for this film, because obviously this film should have won every single Oscar, including Best Actress. Yeah, they should have Given it to the Brazilian umbrella lady.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, Anna Paquin, whose role is impactful even though she doesn't speak.

[David Sims]

Or the boat. Right. Or the. The HMS Surprise, who. You know, he says, would you call me an aged man of war, doctor? And Maturin's like. He's like, the Surprise is not old. No one would call her old. She has a bluff bow, lovely lines. She's a fine sea boat, I want to say. All this weatherly, stiff and fast, very fast. If she's well handled. Then he touches it, touches the boat, says, no, she's not old, she's in her prime. It's the best line ever delivered by an actor.

[Griffin Newman]

Is this your version of the he loves to pull the cork monologue?

[David Sims]

Absolutely. Just like the love. He touches a sort of mantle and then he kind of picks at one of the wounds.

[John Hodgman]

Well, that's the thing.

[David Sims]

There's like, the fireplace is shattered.

[John Hodgman]

Mantelpiece has been. Just had a fucking cannonball shoved through it.

[David Sims]

But it's just that, like, where everyone's kind of like, I think we need to refit. I think we need to go to a port and chill out. And Aubrey's like, yeah. I mean, Maturin's like, yeah, isn't this boat old? And Aubrey's like, this boat is not old and neither am I.

[Griffin Newman]

Like.

[David Sims]

And we can do whatever we need. And he's worked on this boat for many years. You see that? He carved his name into it when he was a midshipman or whatever.

[John Hodgman]

And he says when he's probably 13 or 15, 14 or 14. Right, right.

[David Sims]

Yeah. The idea would have been, like, he's been on other boats, he's, like, served other commands and all that stuff. And he's. But he's come back to it because, yes, he loves this boat. In the books, I believe that's how it goes. The HMS Surprised is his main boat. It's not the only boat that he's on then.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, really? He's got a couple sideboats.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, that's right.

[David Sims]

Well, you know, and sometimes he'll, like, capture a foreign boat and then he has to run that boat for a bit.

[Griffin Newman]

Really? Yeah.

[David Sims]

I mean, that happens in this movie where, like, they capture the Acheron and then James d' Arcy gets put in charge of it. Because then you would just be like, now we're going to call it the fucking HMS British Sausage.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You could just change it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And just be like, it's our boat now, bitch.

[John Hodgman]

Call it the Banger.

[David Sims]

Yeah, exactly. The HMS Pie and Mash.

[John Hodgman]

Should People be allowed to do that with chipolata?

[Griffin Newman]

Should people be allowed to do that with cars?

[David Sims]

Now, HMS Bovril. Okay, with cars. What do you mean?

[Griffin Newman]

If you beat someone in a fight, get your car, then you're just like, yeah, yeah. And you get to call it. You get to rename it whatever you want.

[David Sims]

Wouldn't people just be fighting each other all.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, maybe that's better than what we have right now.

[David Sims]

Is it?

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe. I guess I'm just describing a Mad Max wasteland society.

[David Sims]

It would be. Real might versus right situation would break

[Griffin Newman]

out pretty out of me to suggest this. The man without a driver's license. Why am I trying to will this into existence?

[David Sims]

I don't know. You want all of America's bullies to get cars? Yeah. Then you have Blakeney's arm getting amputated. Tough stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. You're the bravest patient I've ever had.

[David Sims]

I love that. And I just love that it is routine. Yeah, it sucks. But it's like Nelson, you know, it's part of the thing. Why they keep talking about Nelson is Nelson didn't have one of his arms and I think one of his leg. Like Nelson, he got chewed up. He beat Napoleon, I think, with one arm and one leg and a peg leg. And then the other arm was just this, you know, the. The hook. Maybe he had a hook for, you know, eating. I'd get a hook. I would have, like, a fork.

[John Hodgman]

Not only did Nelson defeat Napoleon, yes, with one arm, but he kept the arm that had been amputated and tied it to his back.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that true?

[John Hodgman]

So he defeated him with one arm tied behind his back.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, there we go.

[John Hodgman]

I'm just locked in on Ben on this one.

[David Sims]

He was such a.

[Griffin Newman]

So straight the first half just for Ben, and then he gave it up with a grin as the punchline came in. But I was really buying the performance at first. I kept thinking about, just because of my broken brain, Hodgman. Do you remember the Steve Martin medieval barber SNL sketch?

[John Hodgman]

Oh, very, very vaguely.

[Griffin Newman]

Theodora of York maybe is what it's called.

[John Hodgman]

He had a funny haircut.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, he had a funny haircut. And the bit is that no one fucking understood medicine in medieval England. And so he's the barber, but he's also the doctor. And people come over and he's like, time to amputate. You know, throw some leeches on. It's the same four things. Or someone's like, I got a headache and I got it.

[John Hodgman]

I got the sniffles, let's say.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Time to amputate. And I was thinking about this during this movie, but especially in this amputation scene where I think they do such a good job of characterizing, and a lot of it's in Bettany's performance as well, that this guy is a very good doctor. This is the best guy you could possibly have tending to you even at a time where so much is unknown and the technology is limited.

[David Sims]

Because Griffin. The following scene is the brain surgery scene, and that's when all of the guys are gathered and they say, he wouldn't look at you for under 10 guineas on land. We got a real guy here. He's not some surgeon. But isn't he a vet? Well, and if you should know, he's a naturist. Okay, so he's a surgeon, but also he's very into Charles Darwin and stuff. You know, type stuff of, like, cataloging animals, studying.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Species.

[David Sims]

Separate hobbies.

[John Hodgman]

I don't know who he is in the books.

[David Sims]

He's also, like, a polyglot. He speaks, like, every language.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. The impression that I got from his character in the movie is that he's a naturalist, and he is using this opportunity to travel the world.

[Griffin Newman]

The world, yeah.

[John Hodgman]

And to see and to catalog.

[Griffin Newman]

And that's how he sort of earns his keep on the ship.

[David Sims]

The core tension between him and Aubrey, and it comes up in the movie over is Aubrey's like, I certainly.

[John Hodgman]

I'm here to king.

[David Sims]

No, but it's like, I'm, you know, His Majesty's Navy. And Mat's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When can I please look at more beetles? And Aubrey's like, our orders are to kill the French. And he's like, the fellow is be Frenchman to kill. But this. This beetle is only here. Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

But Maturin does also make the case that it's like, well, yeah, but maybe you shouldn't do this anyway. Not just because I want to go see stick bugs and turtles.

[David Sims]

There's a crucial moment in the movie

[John Hodgman]

because we're gonna get our ass where

[David Sims]

he says, like, are you being too prideful? And that's the classic, you know, any fucking Star Trek has that, too, of like. There's the one guy who can say, like, captain, right? We all follow your ring. We'll do whatever you ask. But, like, are you being. You know, you're taking this too personally.

[John Hodgman]

But there's a relationship between Maturin and Aubrey that is different from Kirk and Bones.

[David Sims]

It's. And it's different from anyone else on this ship.

[John Hodgman]

They Have a marriage.

[David Sims]

They have a marriage. And that's when they're playing the cello and violin together. That's their, you know, that's their whatever lovemaking.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you know what's really interesting about you making that comparison point? Miklasol.

[John Hodgman]

All of it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Miklasall of the San Francisco Chronicle at that time gave this film one of its most negative reviews because it was pretty widely acclaimed. His whole angle was on his protectiveness of the books.

[David Sims]

Sure, right.

[Griffin Newman]

And he specifically like, by removing the mature and spy thing or not making

[John Hodgman]

it deeply technically feminizing him, I think is I read that review too well and I. Beyond that same. The same conclusion I think that you're getting.

[Griffin Newman]

This was his exact wording. Their interaction takes on a preening quality reminiscent of the interaction of the Star Trek characters four or five movies down the line.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, I think that to mean a little bit sort of like too cutesy. Like when Scotty is speaking into the Macintosh mouse and he goes computer. Like that.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, that is one of the funniest things ever happened.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

No, I agree, but I just kind of feel like. How does he say nuclear again?

[David Sims]

What is it?

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, Jesus.

[David Sims]

He says it funny.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And it doesn't matter. Don't worry about it. That is Voyage Home is a movie. I showed it to a friend recently.

[Griffin Newman]

Nuclear. Nuclear. It's a lot of W. Sorry. Voyage Home.

[David Sims]

No, I want to look it up now.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I'll look it up.

[David Sims]

No, it's right. It's nuclear Wessels.

[Griffin Newman]

I knew there was a W. That's

[David Sims]

just one of those. You show it to a friend who's like, seen Star Trek, but maybe not it. And you're like, yeah. And they're like, what's this one about? I'm like, oh, there's some Klingons. Oh, there is? Well, actually, no, not really. They're on a Klingon ship. But what do they have to do? They travel through time. Oh, okay. To fight Klingons fight, you have to

[Griffin Newman]

save the whales, meet a lady and save some whales

[John Hodgman]

characters back to Vibe with each other. And that's about the end of the movie. Like, you know, I mean, we did

[Griffin Newman]

these on Patreon in deepest darkest pandemic. But it is fascinating to look at the box office spike on Four because it was the one movie where they could just market it and be like, you don't need to have seen any Star Trek. Totally get it. You know, the cultural osmosis of these.

[David Sims]

And you get a fish out of water thing.

[Griffin Newman]

And if they show up in San Francisco in the 80s. Comedy.

[John Hodgman]

Comedy will semi literally fish out of water because that whale up.

[Griffin Newman]

This is true.

[David Sims]

Okay, so you see, like, there's all this stuff that you have to watch the movie a million times to really care about. But, like, when they start playing the violin and cello for the first time, that's the ship has been healed. You see Killick also cooking. He's making these, like, kind of grilled cheesy things look really nice.

[John Hodgman]

They look really good. He's got it in that chafing dish, right?

[David Sims]

And he goes like. They go scrape, scrape, scrape, you know, but like, that to me is like, like, basically him acknowledging, like, all right, they've made up, like there. And then. The boat is. The boat is. The sails are fixed. The boat starts moving again. The statue is repaired. The statue is repaired. Blakeney, he gives. He survived the amputation. He gives in the book with the Nelson stuff. And he's like, I fought in one of these.

[John Hodgman]

You know, order has been restored. Right.

[David Sims]

And you see Aubrey writing a letter to his bride, fiance, Josephine. You know, like somebody. They both see a little, like, they

[Griffin Newman]

both got ladies, core, ongoing love interests in the book.

[David Sims]

I mean, you know, you see a little picture.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's not really remarked upon after that. That's when the boys come in and say, we saw the Asheron being built. We've knocked together a little model for you.

[John Hodgman]

And what a knocked together model that is.

[David Sims]

It is pretty good. They get an extra astronaut even though it was intended for saluting day.

[John Hodgman]

That's right.

[David Sims]

We'll drink wine for salute.

[John Hodgman]

All right, we'll drink wine.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you guys have salutant day plans this year or do you try to just kind of play a stocked up rum?

[John Hodgman]

Because I don't want to have to drink wine.

[David Sims]

What if Trump was like, we're bringing back Saluting Day? Not enough saluting in America these days.

[Griffin Newman]

David. The chances, and we're not recording this episode very far in advance, the chances that will happen before this episode is released.

[David Sims]

5050 just saw Master. Why are they saluting all the time? We're gonna make Ocean's Battlefield. This is when the film's incredibly compelling Oscar winning actress, lady with Umbrella, makes her appearance.

[Griffin Newman]

This movie has woman. We all ask, who is woman?

[David Sims]

That really awesome. It is a cool sequence, though, where it's like, right, they're kind of in paradise ice. Like, they're in South America. People are like paddling up and trading,

[John Hodgman]

like mangoes off the coast of Brazil.

[David Sims]

Like, I would be 100 Ben, you would do this? You would buy a monkey? Yeah, right. Like some trader comes up and he's like, I got. I would have been like, how much for the monkey? Definitely, I'll give you. You know, what do you want? Like a bag of rice? Like what? You know, what have we got around here? Whatever. He has a little vest, right? Because monkeys have little vests. Give him a little vest.

[Griffin Newman]

This might have been pre vest.

[John Hodgman]

That's the story of the, you know, the Bounty, right? The HMS Bounty is like, they reach. They reach the South Pacific island and they're like, what the fuck are we doing on this boat? Like, we are so. And you know, we are so far away from everything we know of civilization. Why should we continue to follow these horrible rules and be flogged? And that's the other reason that there were Royal Marines on the boat too, which was to prevent mutinies.

[David Sims]

Ben sent us. There were six saluting days a year, at least at this time, it seems, for the Queen's birthday to mark the restoration. So the King Charles ii. So the resumption of the British monarchy. The King's birthday to mark the King's coronation. Jesus. To mark the King's accession.

[Griffin Newman]

Jesus.

[David Sims]

And then just for November 5th. Remember, remember the 5th of November.

[Griffin Newman]

Gunpowder plot.

[David Sims]

Yeah. After this, after the trading, you have, in my opinion, the greatest sequence in any film ever shot. Except for it's tied with all the other sequences in this film. Right. Tied to number one. To wives and sweethearts. May they never meet. It's the dinner. They're having. Dinner. Just, just, just. What movie does this?

[Griffin Newman]

A lesser of two.

[David Sims]

Every. Just all.

[John Hodgman]

It's my dinner with Andre.

[David Sims]

True.

[John Hodgman]

Wait a second.

[Griffin Newman]

Mouse Hunt actually has. Cuz he's a chef. There's a good amount.

[David Sims]

That's a pretty gross dinner. Is a cockroach in it?

[Griffin Newman]

This. Have you rewatched Mouse Hunt recently?

[David Sims]

Not recently, but I remember that scene is burned on my brain because as a kid I was so grossed out by it.

[John Hodgman]

Wow.

[David Sims]

It's good.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, it's a great sequence.

[John Hodgman]

Green Card too, with BB New.

[David Sims]

Well, we definitely have seen Green Card.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a really good Peter Weir movie.

[John Hodgman]

That's what I'm saying.

[David Sims]

Oh, right.

[John Hodgman]

There is something very beautiful about this dinner scene.

[David Sims]

Just, Just beautiful movie. They had a big battle sequence, then they play the cello and the violin. And then I feel like Hollywood would be like, all right, can there be a sword fight or something? He's like, no, shush. They're gonna tell jokes at dinner.

[Griffin Newman]

Aubrey's Gonna make a Chekhov joke.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[John Hodgman]

Well, I mean, I think it also speaks to the fact that in their. Their. The pace of their lives was very different than we could ever possibly imagine now, which was there's a lot of time sitting around.

[Griffin Newman]

They can't even bin for watch.

[David Sims]

They can't. They can't Netflix and chill at all.

[Griffin Newman]

They don't have a single streaming service.

[John Hodgman]

No, wait, wait.

[Griffin Newman]

They don't.

[David Sims]

Well, no, no, no. Peacock.

[Griffin Newman]

No, they don't have Peacock. Don't even have Peacock with ads. They couldn't even dream of getting the super sized fan edition episodes of the Office.

[John Hodgman]

Can they watch Dicktown on Hulu?

[David Sims]

No, John, no, it's still available on Land. They could, right?

[Griffin Newman]

I hate to tell you this, they couldn't. And this is. This is going to scare you even more.

[John Hodgman]

What's that?

[Griffin Newman]

They didn't have the option to read or listen to Vacation Land in any format. Not even in paperback, not even in paper, not even hard. No, David, they'd have hardback. They didn't have fucking medallion status.

[John Hodgman]

What about the audiobook?

[Griffin Newman]

No, that's why I said or listen to.

[David Sims]

But what if they open a time tunnel and John read them the book through the time tunnel?

[Griffin Newman]

They'd be thrilled.

[John Hodgman]

Why do you think I was out on that schooner looking for a time tunnel?

[David Sims]

This is when the youngest, you know, because like, basically, it's like the hold

[John Hodgman]

was packed with copies of Vacation Land

[David Sims]

and paper said to Blake, me, I served with Nelson, right? So then the second youngest boy, you know, I forget his name, Kalami is like, can you please tell me about that? And I just think Crow rocks this so hard. The way he says the first time he spoke to me, I'll never forget his words. He builds it up and he says, he leans across the table and he says, could I trouble you for the butter or whatever? The salt? The salt, yeah. Aubrey, may I trouble you for the salt? So funny. They all love it. I love it. I'm sitting here laughing.

[John Hodgman]

I'm gonna say something.

[David Sims]

The date I'm on, she's probably like, you know, put a blanket on. She's just got a sleeping cap. She's asleep. I'm fucking Nelson in the Simpsons watching Hank Williams, right?

[Griffin Newman]

I do genuinely love how long of a walk it is to lesser of two weevils.

[David Sims]

It's such a long one. Because then he tells the serious Nelson story about, like, how Nelson said, like, the zeal of, you know, service kept him warm on a cold night. And you see maturing, going like, like, give Me a break. And he's like. I know, I know it sounds absurd, you know, from another man, you would call it pitiful stuff. But like, with him, I believed it. Hey, you know what? To Nelson.

[Griffin Newman]

To Nelson.

[David Sims]

Nelson the greatest.

[Griffin Newman]

Hodge, I feel like you're about to say.

[John Hodgman]

Well, I was just gonna say the Lesser of Two Weevils joke deserves its own conversation. And then he's like, that's a long walk. Then he's like, weevils in the style of two Jarvises and Maturin.

[David Sims]

It's like they're the same. They're a weevil and he's a friggin dork. He gives the Latin name for them. He's like, you have to choose.

[John Hodgman]

Curly Qlo.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[John Hodgman]

And then.

[David Sims]

And then Matern puts on his legendary cunty little glasses. Perhaps the cuntiest little glasses ever worn in a movie.

[Griffin Newman]

He originates.

[David Sims]

He might have. They're so small. They're like comically tiny. Yeah, they're so good. And he's like. He puts them on to get small. I pick the big one. And it's just. I mean, the way if you watch Crow. This scene should be just studied second by second.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Is laughing like. Because he's like, I've got. He turns to someone and then he's like, there. I have you. You're completely dished. I should say that to you all the time.

[John Hodgman]

Completely dish.

[David Sims]

Not knowing the service, you must. One must always choose the last.

[Griffin Newman]

May I ask for something from our community of listeners?

[David Sims]

Of course.

[Griffin Newman]

Can someone please make a super cut of this Lesser of Two Weevils scene with the crowd response from Bernie Max Def Jams.

[John Hodgman]

It's like. I mean, everyone also does cut it into when. When Anthony Mackie shows up in Endgame.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[John Hodgman]

You know when everyone starts, when he says, avengers assemble, I want the raucous

[Griffin Newman]

laughter when he puts the glasses on. They start tittering. But it doesn't explode until.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't you know? We must always choose the lesser of two weevils. What is the preparation on these weevils?

[John Hodgman]

They just.

[David Sims]

Yeah, they're in the business.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Yeah. They're not being food.

[John Hodgman]

Is that what you mean?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Yes. The biscuits, I guess, are what. I'm kind of fixated.

[John Hodgman]

The hardtack.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Tell me about this.

[John Hodgman]

It's basically flour and water and salt and it's dehydrated and it lasts forever.

[Griffin Newman]

It looks aggressive. Yeah.

[David Sims]

I would say hard tack. I've never had hard tech. I feel like sometimes if you go to those, like naval museums or whatever. They'll be like, you can try hardtack. Have you ever had hardtack?

[John Hodgman]

I've never had hardtack.

[David Sims]

It kind of makes matzah look, you know, like very moist. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?

[John Hodgman]

I hear it's a little more palatable when topped with some weevils.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure.

[John Hodgman]

And then soaked in some rum.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

I share your admiration for this scene, David. And I would say if I were Peter Weir watching Russell Crowe's performance, I would say to myself, I'm glad Richard Burton's dead.

[David Sims]

100. Yes.

[John Hodgman]

I don't think Richard Burton.

[David Sims]

I love Richard Burton. I mean, yeah, I mean, I've seen many. He's good. He doesn't quite have the humor, like.

[John Hodgman]

He doesn't have the humor.

[David Sims]

Bro is such a sweetie in this movie. But not in a way that feels like too cutesy or anything.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you know what else I would say if I were watching this scene be shot? I'd say, jesus, that's a hot heart attack.

[John Hodgman]

Hey, thanks for the callback.

[Griffin Newman]

You're welcome.

[John Hodgman]

I mean, he's. The humor is exactly right. And the warmth and the. And the childishness. Right. He's a 40 year old man, which is old at the time.

[David Sims]

Bunch of boys.

[John Hodgman]

But he's still a child.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. He's a troop leader.

[David Sims]

All I do is hang out. These boys, they gotta entertain each other.

[Griffin Newman]

All they do is hang out. They don't and hang out.

[David Sims]

No, there's, there's. I think they did a lot of that. I mean, famously now, so. Nelson died at the Battle of Trafalgar. He was shot by a sniper.

[John Hodgman]

Oh, I thought he was fucking.

[David Sims]

Well, famously. Maybe you don't know this. His last words were kismet. Alfred. Kismet, of course, being the word for love. More faint, I would say.

[John Hodgman]

Right. Fainted. Love.

[David Sims]

But most people think that he actually. Sorry, Not Alfred Hardy. That's what I was double checking. Hardy. He was talking to Captain Thomas Hardy. Most people think he said, kiss me, Artie.

[John Hodgman]

Oh. And that's why Alfred was so mad, because he wanted to kiss him?

[David Sims]

No, the words got changed to kismet. Because at the time no one wanted to acknowledge that. Of course, all these people.

[John Hodgman]

Well, you know, I was thinking very

[David Sims]

like these relationships, whether Weir or someone

[John Hodgman]

put in the picture, that moment when Aubrey is writing to his female acquaintance, when they show the picture just to sort of, in a backward way tell the audience, don't worry, this guy's not gay. Their relationship with. His relationship with Maturin is not a real Marriage. It's a sea marriage. But sea marriages were real, and they were often quite intimate. And again, it speaks to the isolation of the wooden world that they were in, because they were beyond. This is why there were so many superstitions, because it was so dangerous to be on board. But also, you were moving. I just read a novel called Moby Dick.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[John Hodgman]

And that. That novel really conveys how the crew of the Pequod, which is a much smaller crew because they don't have gunners on it. It's a whaling boat, and they'll be out for years. And they are so far beyond the reach of civilization, they're outside of the eyes of God, and they become a society that is completely different. And so all kinds of taboos on land were. Were broken at necessity or pleasure, whether it was cannibalism.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[John Hodgman]

Or male intimacy or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You're sleeping in a hammock.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

With, I don't know, 40 other guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Cool.

[David Sims]

Having a jacket. This sucks.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you think they just had, like,

[David Sims]

a jacket corner jack and Booth?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I would hate to be the bottom bunk.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. They called it the head.

[David Sims]

Or hate to be, like, the. The 24th guy in the jack and booth that night. Oh, she's, like, waiting your turn to get in the jacket booth.

[Griffin Newman]

The booth is, like, filled to the brim.

[David Sims]

Come on, aim out to the sea. J. Fill it. Have a little window or something. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

Go Mitch style, you know, into the shower. Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

And I think that the. And I think the clear marriage that is very coded, you know, sort of hyper, traditionally heteronormatively, you know, husband and wife between the two of them, you know, Aubrey's the warrior, and Maturin's the caring nurturer of the sun and blah, blah, blah. I think it could have made, if not the Chronicle reviewer, but other reviewers a little confused and uneasy. And I'm not saying that that's a reaction that I had or thing, but it came into focus a little bit more like, why those. Some of the people who love the books, be like, you got to have that guy do his spycraft, because otherwise he just seems like a nagging wife.

[Griffin Newman]

And I need to know that he docks. And when he docks, he docks.

[John Hodgman]

Right, exactly. But I think it's such a beautifully portrayed relationship.

[Griffin Newman]

I agree.

[David Sims]

Of.

[John Hodgman]

Of friendship and something deeper than friendship.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, you just invoked a great novel that you've been reading and how it.

[John Hodgman]

Dune Messiah.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I. Moby Dick is the one specifically I was talking about and how it kind of illustrates the way these ships become their own contained worlds where the rules of social interaction are rewritten. It reminds me of another serious, sober work of seafaring that I look to often. Muppet Treasure island, in which they are on the ship for so long, they catch cabin fever.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it forces them to do like a little song flamenco number. They all suddenly get like.

[David Sims]

That is a film I saw in theaters.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I don't think I've seen since.

[Griffin Newman]

Great movie.

[David Sims]

But I do remember Cabin fever number.

[John Hodgman]

I'm sorry I can't play with you on this road to Two Weevils that you're taking me on.

[David Sims]

Are you gonna be left out?

[Griffin Newman]

Huh?

[David Sims]

Of shipping or ship related? Ship stuff. Cabin boy,

[John Hodgman]

another example.

[David Sims]

Highly realistic. Yeah, they capture it.

[Griffin Newman]

We studied it a lot.

[John Hodgman]

In addition to the like 12, 13 year old officer cadets that were the midshipmen, they also had literal boys.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, that's the joke of cabin boy. Much like get a life is like, what if an adult man was doing this thing?

[John Hodgman]

Right. You didn't see them in this though, I don't think.

[Griffin Newman]

No. Sims, what were you about to ask?

[David Sims]

Can't remember. The Akron surprises them. It's fine. And you know, so they get standard sort of, you know, ambushed in a way. Surprise gets surprised. He doesn't like that. But then they. They pull.

[John Hodgman]

The whole maneuver means irony.

[David Sims]

No, it doesn't.

[John Hodgman]

No.

[David Sims]

The astronaut's like the river of woe or whatever, Right. It's like from antiquity. I don't know. You know? But then like, then they kind of maneuver around. They do the thing where they. They put the little fake boat out. They create the illusion with. With the miniature version using the lanterns. Right.

[John Hodgman]

Because even though they're separated at a great distance.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[John Hodgman]

And even though they're both moving probably at about 10 miles per hour would be the top speed that they could get. 10 knots, 11 miles per hour.

[David Sims]

Did they get up there?

[John Hodgman]

They're inexorably going to catch up. The Asheron has longer guns. It can shoot farther.

[David Sims]

Right.

[John Hodgman]

And so they're going to die until Aubrey has this smart idea. What if we pretend that the. The poop deck is actually further back than it is.

[David Sims]

Good shit.

[John Hodgman]

That's good shit from the poop deck. And then they can't ask for.

[David Sims]

Then they have them. Then they have the drop on the Asheron and they're gonna get him. But they get. Then the storm happens, which like, I guess this is the other major action sequence of the movie. And it is awesome and super intense. Just has no Gun work. It's all waves.

[Griffin Newman]

And also to your earlier point, this movie doesn't have a, A villain, even in like an abstracted way. A sense of like, I gotta get revenge on this guy, which I love, because that's life.

[David Sims]

It's like, yeah, they wouldn't really know who are on these ships. I mean, I do like that Aubrey has that moment where he's like, did I kill this guy's kid or something? Like, why does he hate me?

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

But like, but he's obviously just imagining. He's like, I don't know.

[John Hodgman]

That to me you're saying about. People were complaining or nervous about the fact that there wasn't an antagonist. And what makes this movie special is that the antagonist is a complete mystery.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

And it's like, it's, it's accurate to like the idea.

[David Sims]

There's a bit of.

[John Hodgman]

There's a big twist at the end.

[David Sims]

There's a nice little. I would say it's a little twist. It's a saucy little twist.

[John Hodgman]

It's a saucy. It's a cheeky little. Cheeky little twist. It's a soused head cheese of a twist.

[David Sims]

There's this moment which it is house sow's hogs face her. There's a moment where Maturin says like he fights like you, Jack. A kind of like you're not so different moment. Right. But obviously like when they're. They're pursuing him, the storm gets them. They have to give up because they like the fucking mask gets dried. You know, like they have to cut the mast off because it's like turning into an anchor. There's the whole sequence there.

[John Hodgman]

Right?

[David Sims]

You know what I'm talking about?

[John Hodgman]

Well, yeah, because the.

[David Sims]

All right, well, that's where we're at.

[John Hodgman]

I know. Okay.

[David Sims]

The guy dies, he can't swim back.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. What's his name again? Raleigh or something. He's that beautiful guy. He's one of the two guys who pop in and get the extra rations of rum for showing the, the. The model of the Asheron. And he is, he is in charge of the, of the top mizzen mast.

[David Sims]

Yes. You see the other. It's Warley I think is his name. You see the other guy crying and like putting away his stuff and all that.

[John Hodgman]

But so, Ben, the top mizzen mast. So there are three masts on this boat. It's a three masted sailing ship. Square rigged, not fore and aft. Ben. It only really gets speed when it's direct. The wind is directly behind you. And their first mast is the foremast. The middle mast is the main mast. The aftmost mast is the mizzen mast. He's on the top mizzen mast. He's standing on what's called the fighting top, or maybe he's talking on the cross rails, but he's on a platform way up there, and he's trying to bring in the sail because that sail is how you move the ship. But in bad winds, that becomes dangerous, and he can't get it up, so to speak. And that's why Hollam has to climb up and help him and fails to do so.

[David Sims]

And does he. Is he kind of. He's cowardly. Does he sabotage and really actually lead to that.

[Griffin Newman]

That sailor's death?

[David Sims]

He thinks he's responsible. I guess so. I mean, he didn't SAP. Like, he should have been up there.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[John Hodgman]

He was scared to get up there. And you know what? It's scary.

[David Sims]

It's fucking scary. I want to go up there.

[John Hodgman]

I have not. I did not fly.

[David Sims]

This is how quickly I wash out of the British Navy. They're like, all right, welcome. You're the fourth son of some lord. I'm like, hello. And they're like, go up that thing. And I'm like, I'm not going up there. What are you talking about? Yeah, do you have, like, a chair

[John Hodgman]

I can sit in? I mean, conceivably, if he had gotten up there, he would have. Be. He would have been able to help. What's his name again? Warly.

[David Sims]

Yeah, sure.

[John Hodgman]

Help Warly Furl get. You know, get rid of that sail. And so the wind couldn't take it and pull the mast apart.

[David Sims]

Snap the mast off. So after that is when Mat sits down with Aubrey and is like, are you. Are you being too intense?

[John Hodgman]

Can I tell Ben one more thing about the mask?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a really good instinct, by the way, to deliver all this to Ben. I think it's really smart.

[John Hodgman]

Thank you.

[David Sims]

It's like you're trying to sell Ben on going on a boat.

[John Hodgman]

The only one of the two, the three of you, that I could probably, no question, press Gang into coming to Maine because you've got these children and you've got this life. You've got a life.

[David Sims]

But I'm up that way often.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

With my wife's family.

[John Hodgman]

There we go.

[Griffin Newman]

This is true.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

I would love to come visit you. The boat. The boats may be the bigger ass

[John Hodgman]

you climb up to. Climb up. You climb up. You know that thing that looks Like a ladder that's, you know, so the mast is held up and held in place by stays. So two long lines that go from the top to the. To the front and back to the stern and the bow. And then shrouds, which are lines that come down to the sides. That's how it stays up in tension. And the. And the shrouds on the sides are. They've ladders built into them called rat lines, because you climb up like a little rat and then you get to the fighting top, which is a platform about two thirds up the way of the mast where the sharpshooters would stand and shoot. But to get onto that platform, you have to climb around it. And sometimes the boat is tipped over and you're basically upside down. It's really dangerous. There's a trap door to go through more safely, which is called the lubber's hole. And if you climb through that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I'm definitely boats.

[David Sims]

I like being on the water. I'm not a foes. It's just. I'm more of a sort of like everyone else do that is there. Where's the, you know, portable DVD player?

[Griffin Newman]

You know. Right. I would say. I do not like being on. I do like portable.

[David Sims]

There's a reason to make drinks for people.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. That's why. That's why Kilik Killik is his name. Yeah, that's why he's one of your favorite characters.

[David Sims]

Right. I fucking love that guy. A very grilled cheese in South House cog space and all that. So then, like, Maturin calls Aubrey out. Aubrey admits, like, I have at this point exceeded my orders. My orders are to try to catch this thing off the coast of Brazil. We've, you know, we've been chasing it longer than I need to.

[John Hodgman]

And they're faster, too. And they're. So then make it around the Cape to the Pacific.

[David Sims]

So then he's like, all right, you know what? Killik? Make a delicious map of the Galapagos Islands out of jelly or whatever the fuck. What is it? Who knows?

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, I mean, it's some kind of boiled jellies.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

It's like a jelly.

[David Sims]

And essentially is like, we're. We can go to the Galapagos Islands. We have a whaling fleet there. I think the French will be heading there anyway. We can try to regroup. And good news to you, Mr. Maturin, maybe you can look at some animals. That's Galapagos Island.

[Griffin Newman]

That's why he's in the business.

[David Sims]

There's a loop. Penguins and shit.

[John Hodgman]

This is Alluded to in the movie, but I'll ask Ben. Do you know why whaling ships and, and ships of the line and warships love to go to the Galapagos?

[David Sims]

Something to do with the stream.

[John Hodgman]

Well, you could get fresh water there for sure. You could reprovision there.

[David Sims]

Or I guess I'm saying the like. Oh, the stream of the ocean.

[John Hodgman]

No, they wanted to go. There's a specific reason, which is tortoises. Tortoises were good food on these ships. Yeah. Because you could, you could keep. You could take a bunch of tortoises

[Griffin Newman]

off an island, I guess. They don't spoil.

[John Hodgman]

They don't spoil and they don't drink water and they don't eat.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[John Hodgman]

And so unlike that goat and cow you have on board for milk. You saw that in the table setting, the beginning. You could take a stack of tortoises and put them down there and just kill them as you. As you went.

[Griffin Newman]

And they're kind of taste, they're like funny more that they're just less annoying to.

[David Sims]

I personally didn't eat up your resources.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

I personally think that hundred year old tortoises taste great, but that's just kind of my taste and I think I should be allowed to eat as many.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, you love soup. That's why you're constantly fantastic.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but no, no, it's true. You're right.

[John Hodgman]

I mean, look, that's why, that's why the whaling fleet would go by there. They were not ecologically conscious and then the privateers would. Were going after the whaling fleet because they were packed up with very, very valuable sperm.

[David Sims]

So this is the moment I already alluded to it. They're about like. Maturin is dolled up, he's got his house coat, he's got his straw hat, he's got his little like.

[John Hodgman]

Have you ever tried to keep that for Halloween?

[David Sims]

No. I probably should. Although I think I might just be, you know, escorted to an insane.

[Griffin Newman]

Weirdly David does dress like that for sleep. Those are his versions of pajamas.

[David Sims]

I want to see those shops maybe. And they pick up some guys, right, who are like, you know, who have information, right, like they, they're whalers.

[John Hodgman]

They're aware.

[David Sims]

They're the survivors of a whaling ship

[John Hodgman]

that was captured by the Acheron, the Albatross.

[David Sims]

And Jack's like, we gotta fucking go, let's go get it. And they have this fight which I really like because like Maturin's sort of right of like you're, you know, you're, you're too crazy. You know, you're too obsessed with the Acheron and we don't need to do this. But Maturin's also totally selfishly, like, I want to stay on the Galapagos Islands. I want to look at penguins and stuff. And it's very emotional and well played. It is mature and kind of. It. He does kind of act like his wife is yelling at him. Like it is kind of the vibe where he's like, you know, duty, please, you know, we must. And so that's. But he does get to. Oh, right, right, right. That's when Blakeney gets in the beetle. He's like, if nothing else, I found a cool beetle. Can we like catalog that?

[John Hodgman]

And that's sort of the beginning of their bond.

[David Sims]

Yes. I like all the shots where it's the perspective of the telescope. Yes. And seeing the different animals and the discovery of the iguana that can swim. The way that all just plays out basically alluding to evolution.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's awesome, right? And the iguanas, the swimming iguana, where he's like, they don't swim. All these fucking iguanas.

[John Hodgman]

I think it's one of the few non documentary films to ever shoot at the Galapagos.

[David Sims]

Indeed. They shot at the Galapagos, which have a very weird terrain.

[John Hodgman]

Well, David, I wouldn't know because I've only ever seen it in the movies. And this is like. Oh, yeah. Remember when the movies used to take you places?

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's true. Well, maybe we should go.

[John Hodgman]

But you can't come to Maine and now you're pitching a Galapagos expedition.

[David Sims]

Well, we can go to Maine, get on your boat, sail to the Galapagos. Where are they? You know, you got to go all the way around America.

[John Hodgman]

You're the captain. I get it. Requirements of the service. It's just.

[David Sims]

But then we have. Then we have the Jonah plot. Right. Then they are. Their. Their wind is gone, it's hot, they're not moving, they can't get into action. And the boys start being mean to Hollam because they consider him the. The. He sort of cursed the ship.

[John Hodgman]

Well, and also he may or may not have been directly responsible for the death of Worley the. And it's the Morley's best friend who particularly takes a hatred to Hollam and refuses to salute him.

[David Sims]

And at one point, you know, Aubrey like punishes someone who's not nice to Harlem, Right.

[John Hodgman]

Because that guy is.

[David Sims]

That guy.

[John Hodgman]

He doesn't kind of checks him.

[David Sims]

Them as far as where they're at. The storm was around the Horn Yes. They've gone around South America. They're on the other side. They really are. They're. They are now on the other side of the world because the Navas Islands are off the coast of Ecuador. Although by. Off the coast, hundreds of miles off the coast of Ecuador, there's this great fight that he has with Maturin. I love their fights where Aubrey's like, I have to preserve against a mutiny. And Maturin's like, these fucking guys that are in this, like, wooden prison. They've been, like, pressed against their homes. And he's like, you can talk to me that way. But I really hate it when you talk about the service that way. Like, Aubrey's like, you know, I really like being in the Navy. I know you think it sucks and just want to look at birds, but, like, it does rock. And.

[John Hodgman]

And they're both right and they're both wrong because he is absolutely chasing the

[David Sims]

Acheron for pride, men must be governed. Often not. Well, I, you know, admit. But, like, they must be governed in maternity. And, like, you know, that's what every sort of, you know, dictator says. It's a great fight. I just love that the movie has room for all of this.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, The.

[David Sims]

The. The Jonah subplot, like, is the first thing you would be told to lose. I feel like you're telling me the movie stops two thirds of the way. Like, the action stops and we just focus on, like, a side character having, like, a psychodrama, basically, like.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. It becomes a psychological thriller, and it

[David Sims]

ends, like, so perfectly and so sadly with him just, like. Like, does he grab a cannonball to go down? Yeah, yeah.

[John Hodgman]

And just holds it.

[David Sims]

It's like, you've always been nice to me anyway.

[Griffin Newman]

I find it emotionally affecting that things sucked so hard in this time that basically you would learn to become the best doctor alive in order to get on a boat in the hopes that, like, once a year, right, they'd let you go look at lizards for two hours.

[David Sims]

Yeah, man.

[Griffin Newman]

And the fact that he does become this good of a doctor and clearly take so much pride in it. I mean, who knows the order?

[David Sims]

No, no, he's good. He's. He's.

[Griffin Newman]

But I'm saying the. The. The naturist thing feels like his real driving passion.

[David Sims]

Totally. Yes.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But me invoking the SNL sketch earlier, it was the. The thing in the. In the amputation scene is, without acting, like, metatextual or like, he's a time traveler, I think Bettany somehow portrays the delicacy of, like, looking at this Kid and being like, it sucks that this is the only way I can do this. It sucks that all I can offer you is a stick to bite on. You know, I'm kind of the best there is, and none of these options are great. Yeah. This is always gonna hurt. And if I see, like 20 of my men injured, I might only save three of them. And that's a pretty good ratio.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Then Jonah dies. Okay, time for action to begin again, right? No Return gets shot.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

By a guy trying to shoot an albatross.

[Griffin Newman]

An accident. Truly kind of an. I mean, I hope he did eventually shoot that albatross and put it around.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's kind of a Dick Cheney situation, right? Where he's like, fuck, I didn't mean to shoot you.

[Griffin Newman]

It's embarrassing. And. And worst of all, a little bit of shirt got stuck in the wound.

[David Sims]

That's the fucked up part. There's this great moment when Aubrey's like, you know, because they spot the. The Acheron, they could try to catch it. And Aubrey makes the decision like, no, we're going to stay here. We have to take him to the stable ground to do the surgery. But he's staring at the cello like, there's a shot where he just looks at the. The cello standing there. It's like he can't operate without maturing. Like, he knows, like, I am not going to survive if he dies. Like, essentially, like, I need my other half. I need my sort of better temper. All that stuff.

[John Hodgman]

I would. And then I would argue that the. But, you know, I don't think this is his primary motivation. But the crew kind of also need a doctor, too.

[David Sims]

Well, this is the thing, because the other guy, the assistant, is basically like, yeah, I'm pretty good at operating. I do barf at the sight of open wounds and stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

And, like, you know, the fact that Maturity.

[David Sims]

Shaky hands, essentially.

[John Hodgman]

You see him checking, watching a YouTube about how to perform search.

[David Sims]

Matern knows that the only way to remove bullet with. With shirt.

[Griffin Newman]

With shirt. Mature. Knows the only way he's going to survive is for him to do the procedure himself and no one fights him on it. The fact that he says it and everyone's like, yeah, you're right.

[David Sims]

This is the. I can't believe Betney was an Oscar nominated thing where it's like, you're telling me in the middle of the movie he does surgery on himself with a mirror, right? Like, like.

[Griffin Newman]

But as pointed out, this was a weird supporting actor.

[David Sims]

It was like the Oscars were also just dumber back Then I feel like they. They're more lenient to newer actors and performing, you know? I don't know. Yeah. But good news. What does this mean, John?

[John Hodgman]

Oh, he gets to go to Galapagos.

[David Sims]

Yeah. They're on the islands.

[Griffin Newman]

He gives them the gift. That's a really beautiful scene of Crow trying to act like he's not a softy and being like, no, we were gonna stop here anyway. I didn't do this for you.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I just.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Chose to tell them I didn't actually

[John Hodgman]

want to capture that boat, bring you

[Griffin Newman]

out in a stretcher and walk you around one time.

[David Sims]

Good. It's all good.

[John Hodgman]

You think that Aubrey got a little pissed off, like, three days after they stop chasing the Asheron, and he's just got a. Into a bullet out of his own belly that he's getting up and walking around all the time. So maybe I'll be like, okay, maybe we should get back on the ship.

[Griffin Newman]

I wouldn't have done this whole ceremony.

[David Sims]

No, but it's.

[John Hodgman]

So you were injured.

[David Sims]

It's the weird fate of it, though, because that's how he finds the echo.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Because he's on the Galapagos.

[John Hodgman]

That's such an amazing.

[David Sims]

He's measuring tortoises and he's got his, like. I. Like, he has this, like, box that he looks into the ocean with, right? Like the sort of, like, spy box that he can use to look at fish and. But this is. I've got the time. It's an hour 40. Like, what? What? Fox support Rothman, I assume, is watching again. Like, me. Like Nelson watching.

[John Hodgman]

Can we stretch it out? Can we make it?

[David Sims]

Other execs are like, do we need the iguana measuring sequence? Like, is there not a boat for them to fight?

[John Hodgman]

Well, I mean, I hear that Jack

[David Sims]

Sparrow, like, fences with every member of the cast. Fire to the Caribbean.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And also, like, well, certainly, you know, it's a slow burn, but it's going to lead much. Like, the Weevils walk into an awesome showdown with him and the other captain. No, he boards the ship, the guy's dead.

[David Sims]

But he's not.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure.

[David Sims]

But yes. No, you're right. I mean, like, the final sequence is very intense and rocks in a theater and all that. But, like, it is not right.

[John Hodgman]

Aha.

[David Sims]

Like, Captain Frenchman. And then, like a big sword fight, like, across the deck of a boat or whatever. You know, all that.

[John Hodgman]

I mean, I'll just say this real quick about, you know, and revisiting. Peter, we're sorry.

[David Sims]

One more thing.

[John Hodgman]

Oh, yeah.

[David Sims]

In the Galafos, they find the Acheron. What else do they find, John? A stick insect.

[John Hodgman]

Oh, yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Which gives Aubrey the idea to disguise his boat. And that's how they capture the Acheron.

[John Hodgman]

That's how they get him.

[David Sims]

See it all like, you need this. This is a breathing organism. This ship, all these people with these different needs and interests.

[John Hodgman]

Wooden world. It's not a prison.

[David Sims]

It's a world. He wasn't listening to all of them. He wouldn't be making, like, the. The evolved decisions because they're privateers and they're greedy because they're not just engaging with other, you know, naval ships. They're also going after private citizens 100%. They'll rate anything that looks like a prize.

[John Hodgman]

Right. One of the things I've noticed rewatching some of these weird movies and seeing some of them for the first time, that he isn't like, it's. Yeah. Tom Rothman is like, yeah, more. More Galapagos, please. Or whatever.

[David Sims]

Right.

[John Hodgman]

But Peter Weir is so patient as

[Griffin Newman]

a director in all his films.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. And there are definitely moments in Witness, certainly in Hanging Rock, where you're just like, oh, yeah, I guess nothing's gonna happen. And then all of a sudden, something will happen and you're involved because he's. The beauty of it is that he's not sitting there. And all of a sudden, the Acheron comes around the corner and it's huge. He sees it and it's tiny, but it's close enough.

[David Sims]

And that he can go into battle hair mode.

[John Hodgman]

That's right. Look at that.

[David Sims]

Let the locks flow.

[Griffin Newman]

You bring up the patience. It is one of those things that I often think about, and we are choosing to kind of just like, step away.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And even that his last film becomes an independent film and one where he needs foreign financings. Last time he works with the studios is. I think he just sort of saw, like, they're not going to let me do this anymore. Even if it's not. I'm making $100 million EPIC. Which he was one of these guys who liked being able to level up and work with those resources. It's also just like, no one lets studio films have this kind of patience anymore. Is a patience that runs across his small, intimate dramas to his giant epics.

[John Hodgman]

And maybe one of the reasons that people don't think about, oh, Peter, like Peter Weir all the time, or like the Peter Weir style movie is. And this is not a discredit to his talents, but he wasn't all that uncommon in commercial filmmaking at the Time.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[John Hodgman]

Like the opening sequence of. You haven't covered. Well, you have covered Green Card by the time this comes out.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Hodgman]

But you know, like that opening sequence with the kid drumming in the.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

In the subway.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

Has nothing to do with the plot.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

It's just a creation of a mood in a world. He does it in this movie too, where it's just like little building moments of like, here's what life is like in little tiny 5 to 7 second vignettes. And we used to see that kind of stuff in movies all the time. There would just be a sequence of like, here's New York City, here's a guy hailing a cab.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, it's happening. A dog day.

[John Hodgman]

Exactly.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And now it's the Netflix thing of like every movie has to open with a helicopter overhead shot of the city and then immediately into either an action sequence or some kind of big comedic accept piece or the beginning of the plot. You know, I mean, they have all this data that's like if something huge doesn't happen within the first 90 seconds, everyone's going to flip away. And even in theaters where it's not like the risk is someone walking out of the theater is the thing they're concerned about. You do feel like that concern dictating the edits of these things, even if it's just inevitably this thing's going to go on to fucking streaming. You saying he's not, is, is he. Was he less unique in the moment than it feels like he was now?

[John Hodgman]

I think he's a master of that. I think also I think it was not unusual.

[Griffin Newman]

No, his uniqueness was his consistency, I would say.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And also the versatility of genre, of size, of tone.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

There are very few people who I think made this transition into the studio system and just basically stayed true to their standards and their ethos and didn't slip. Because you compare it to like Wolfgang Peterson who like goes from making like his very serious movies to making like top level popcorn to then making shitty popcorn. Like the arc from like Das Boot to Perfect Storm to Poseidon is what often happens to these guys at some point. They're just fucking picking up the checks.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, we. Or maybe saw it come in and got out of the way maybe to tie it back to a moment to Master and Commander, a movie that I believe David likes.

[Griffin Newman]

I've heard that.

[John Hodgman]

I think that what's one of the things that's very beautiful about it is that the natural patient pace of a Peter Weir movie marries so Quickly, with the necessary patient pace of sailing a ship in the Napoleonic. But like it has a completely different mood than we would think.

[David Sims]

What happens when they engage in battle?

[John Hodgman]

Shit pops off.

[David Sims]

It's what I like. The craziest part of all this, it's like so much of your life is what you're talking about is the careful, like, how do we maneuver? And then it's like when we're next to them, everyone has to go insane.

[John Hodgman]

Right?

[David Sims]

You see Kilik going insane, like during the battle, like there's one of the other chefs is like beating someone up with a pot. Like it's like hitting someone over the head with a pot. Obviously I already mentioned, you know, you see Blakeney, little 12 year old Blakeney just boarding with a gun. Well, isn't his mission to. First he's in charge the whalers. Yeah, but first that's cattle. The other ones. Oh, sorry, no, first he's in charge of the boat, remember, he's like, oh, I don't get to be in the boarding party. He's like, no, you're going to be like in charge of the surprise. Because we're all. Which is an honor. But then there's that moment where they're so close and they both start pointing. Like both boats are pointing the cannon right at each other. And Blake means like, we have to fire first. Like, you know, we, you know they're going to blow our hole in us.

[John Hodgman]

He's a good commander of the surprise.

[David Sims]

And then he says, arm yourself. We must board them. He's a little child. And you see Maturin like grab a gun and cock it. And I'm watching it right now. It's so exciting.

[John Hodgman]

And I love what, I love that Blakeney says that because A, he appreciates that it's necessary because he's smart.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[John Hodgman]

But B, he gets what he wants to do anyways. Like, yeah, you know what? I am going to fucking board that boat.

[David Sims]

The, the assistant doctor guy, the cowardy. He's not a coward, but the grossed out doc. He has that moment where he stops a cannon from being fired by putting his hand in between the fuse and the, like the trigger.

[John Hodgman]

Oh, and it hurts.

[David Sims]

It's so.

[John Hodgman]

It's only like he's like almost slapsticky moment where you good? Yeah.

[David Sims]

Maturin picks up a sword and starts fucking with. It's so exciting. It's the greatest thing that's ever happened. Like I said, it's tied with all the other scenes for a greatest scene in a movie.

[John Hodgman]

But yeah, Calamy Is sent. Is tasked with going and rescuing. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Getting the other whalers out of members

[John Hodgman]

of the Aldous because that will put

[David Sims]

the odds in their favor. It gets more guys on their side, and that's when it's over. And then Aubrey sees the surgeon, who is actually the captain, pretending to be the surgeon, operating on the captain, who's probably just some dead guy. They put a coat on, and he says, you told me to give you this sword.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. That's what happens.

[David Sims]

And it's great. You don't know the twist for a while, obviously. There's the. What's his pants? Diesel.

[John Hodgman]

The sweet boy, Calamy, dies, and he

[David Sims]

doesn't sew through the nose for him because he's asked for that. Or remember Blake? He asked Blake or Blakeney asked him earlier.

[John Hodgman]

He gets sewn. They get sewn up in their own hammocks.

[David Sims]

Also, the guy who looks like a blobfish dies. Love that guy so much. The master.

[John Hodgman]

Oh, yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, he gets shot. Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

The master of Sale.

[David Sims]

Love him. It's great. It's just, you know, just the right balance of, like, triumph and misery. Right? Like, it's sort of like this is life at sea. They bury everyone. They say their names, they sing a little song. Right? All that stuff. Would you want to be buried at sea?

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[John Hodgman]

Okay, fine.

[David Sims]

He gives James d'. Arcy. Okay, great.

[John Hodgman]

Really?

[David Sims]

Ben, bring the tie? Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

He's decided. We're deciding for all of us. Yeah, sure.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Now we all have to do it.

[Griffin Newman]

We're giving Ben power of attorney that

[David Sims]

he gives James Darcy the Acheron.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

He's like, take that to port Jarvis.

[John Hodgman]

Take the Acheron to Valparaiso.

[David Sims]

And then we have there the moment I already freaked out about, which is Aubrey realizes like, oh, no, the Captain's still on the ship. Right. We have to go get them. We can't stay at the Galapagos.

[John Hodgman]

Sorry, sorry. Once again.

[David Sims]

Birds. Flightless. Not going anywhere.

[John Hodgman]

Funny line, right?

[David Sims]

Billion dollar gross, right?

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

The greatest thing that's ever happened. And then they. They.

[Griffin Newman]

Then they play a little jam out

[John Hodgman]

because what else are they going to do while they're going there? It's going to take time.

[Griffin Newman]

I was going to make a joke that the. The mid credit tease was that they're building a white Maturin. And then I remember that in the section where he's been shot, he basically does.

[David Sims]

He does.

[Griffin Newman]

He gets. Yeah. Gray T mode.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, that's funny.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you.

[John Hodgman]

David, how do you feel about this movie?

[David Sims]

It's my favorite movie ever. I love to watch it. I try not to watch it too much because I do. As with all my favorite movies, I try to kind of like, let it

[Griffin Newman]

be special every time. Yeah.

[David Sims]

So it's like every year or so.

[Griffin Newman]

How many times do you think you've seen it? Like 20.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[John Hodgman]

15.

[David Sims]

20.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, right.

[David Sims]

Like you don't amount.

[Griffin Newman]

You don't ever put it into an Assassin's Creed style rotation.

[David Sims]

I don't think I do that.

[John Hodgman]

That's a Ben I was hearing about in college.

[David Sims]

I did that in college. I would have the movies to fall asleep to a little bit more.

[Griffin Newman]

I cycle through them. I don't know if you do this as well. It sounds like you didn't with this. But certain. In the same way that I like, held off on rewatching this because I was like, I should make it fresh for.

[David Sims]

Oh, I'll do that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

There are certain movies I look at where I'm like, I'd love to watch that. But there's a good chance we cover that in the next two years.

[David Sims]

I definitely do that.

[Griffin Newman]

And it would be nice to make that feel a little more special.

[John Hodgman]

I'm never gonna be arrived as Griffin finished watching the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, my memory at this point, you're fresh, I'm dormant story usually try to do it. Pretty soon it's out of my brain so quickly.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

That I feel like the specificity of thought. I. I need to be as. As close to of just finishing the movie as I can.

[David Sims]

We mentioned the box office. We'll play the game in a second.

[John Hodgman]

Can I ask good reviews a question before the box office game? I know you're going somewhere. No, but I'm going to the box and you're leading and you're captaining the ship. So I don't want to take us off. No. What's my Galapagos is balance. The overall question is, what's the new thing you've seen in it since you've seen it so many times? And then the prompt might be, how does this depiction of war compare to the depiction of war in Gallipoli?

[David Sims]

That's interesting. It's got the similar thing in Gallipoli of. It's about like a brotherhood of man a little bit. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And then you don't really know or see your enemy.

[David Sims]

But like. Right. But in Gallipoli, I feel like it's a little bit more like. Like, you know, watching it. If you have even the barest understanding of history, like, these boys have no idea what they are in for. They have been drafted into a war that is pointless. They are being drafted into a, you know, battle that is the famously worst thing that anyone ever tried in World War I, basically.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Like one of the biggest disasters.

[John Hodgman]

Right.

[David Sims]

So you kind of have this kind of like innocence is dying here. I don't find that with master and commander. This is like. Like, you know, it's not maybe something to be proud of, but like this is part of the lifeblood of this, you know, of this empire. Right. Is like.

[John Hodgman]

I mean, Obviously World War I was a. Not. Was a particularly modern war in a way that people didn't understand even when they were joining it because of the kinds of guns they were using. Basically it was just much more fatal war. Even though this. The brutality of war is depicted to a degree in this movie as well. But it's also like the. As you mentioned, the triumph is there too. So it's kind of. It's a romantic film when it comes to this.

[David Sims]

Hugely romantic.

[John Hodgman]

And in. That is. Right. There is no reason to necessarily go after the Acheron. After it.

[David Sims]

No. What. This is not some movie about like. I mean, he gives the great speech where he's like, do you want Napoleon to be your king? Like where they're all fired up about it and it's like, yeah, sure, in the broad sense, Britain didn't want to lose to France.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. But this isn't even a French on this naval ship. This is a. A. This is a. They're contractors.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

You know, they're not going to invade. They're not going to invade England. The Asheron's not going to invade England. Nor are they going to continue hunting for the surprise necessarily unless they disguise themselves.

[Griffin Newman]

Hodge, I got a question for you. Turn about his fair play. I know you've done a great job of explaining and selling Ben on the specifics of life on the skis and. And boating.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And obviously your exp. Experiences with boating are different than what is depicted in this film. Are there slightly. Are there specific things in this movie that you feel like, wow, this gets it right in a way I haven't seen before.

[John Hodgman]

I'm in no way it's really able semen.

[Griffin Newman]

Not even like on technical details. Feelings and experiential. And yeah.

[John Hodgman]

I mean, I think that it is profoundly creepy to be sleeping on a boat that makes no motor noise.

[Griffin Newman]

This is a reason I don't trust

[John Hodgman]

boats that I think. Think it captures very well. I mean the depiction of what you do in order to make a boat like this go.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

Is to the best of my understanding, experience and reading. Very accurate. I think that's very cool because it required a lot of intelligence and ingenuity and that sort of thing. That thing where they have to escape into the fog and they don't have enough wind so they get out the boats and they pull.

[Griffin Newman]

You've been there.

[John Hodgman]

Was how you would know. But that is how you would maneuver those boats. You know, like. Like particularly a square. Ben. So a square rigged boat.

[David Sims]

Okay. All right. No, I'll tell you, I'm getting so hungry and we gotta play the box.

[John Hodgman]

I understand.

[David Sims]

Thank you for.

[John Hodgman]

Thank you for letting me talk a little bit about it. But if I may.

[Griffin Newman]

Please.

[David Sims]

We've reached the end of our discussion of this film. Oh, yes. Oh, Jesus. Forgot I have a piece of paper to honor it. Appropriately. Safe and sound at home again Let the waters roar, Jack Safe and sound at home again Let the waters roar, Jack Long we've tossed on the rolling main now we're safe ashore Jack don't forget your old shipmate follow Roddy, Roddy, Rody, Rody.

[John Hodgman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Take it solo, David. Me? No, I don't know. Don't finish.

[John Hodgman]

I don't. That was pretty good. But we were not prepped for that. There was no editing. We just jumped into it.

[David Sims]

Did they say this other part? I don't remember this other part.

[John Hodgman]

Oh, yeah.

[David Sims]

No. It goes on the self. Same gun quarter deck division Sponger I and loader you through the whole commission Long we've tossed on the rolling main now we're safe ashore for Jack don't forget your old ship mate did you look this up? This is. It's called don't forget your old shipmate. This naval song.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you know what makes Ben best in the biz?

[David Sims]

I mean, everything, but. Go ahead.

[Griffin Newman]

99 out of 100 producers would have just texted that to us and Ben printed it out.

[David Sims]

I think it mattered. I think we locked in right away.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely. It meant something.

[David Sims]

I think it's meant when they're a little mean about the nice singing voice of Hollam.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I think it's mean when they're mean.

[David Sims]

I feel like it's a little mean. I mean, they're not like that mean, but they're kind of like.

[John Hodgman]

There's a moment before he sings. So this is when he joins in on Farewell. Do you old Spanish ladies?

[Griffin Newman]

And they go, you're a little pitchy dog.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, that's. Yeah. But right before that, the cruising. Before he joins in, you see him sort of gamely tapping his hand to the Beat and he's really offbeat and it's just so touching. Anyway, all of the characters are real people. Thanks for playing along with. Thank you very much, Griffin. An extra ration of grog for Ben.

[David Sims]

It's November 14, 2003.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Master Commander is opening to $25 million. Number two at the box office.

[Griffin Newman]

Now, I do know what is number one, because the Wikipedia entry, there's a sub entry of accolades and awards received by Master and Commander. I was just trying to look up the award situation. In the opening paragraph, it says the movie was considered disappointment. Coming in number two behind Elf. Is this the second weekend of Elf?

[David Sims]

How much is Elf dropped from his first weekend?

[Griffin Newman]

It went up, did it not?

[David Sims]

It did not go up.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

At least according to the numbers, which everything feels a little unreliable.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember it having a minuscule. Well, I remembered it going up, but

[David Sims]

it goes up in its fourth.

[Griffin Newman]

There we go.

[David Sims]

I knew it has dropped 15%.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Crazy.

[David Sims]

So Elf is number one at the box office with 26 mil. Mastering Commander right behind it at 25 mil. Right behind. That is a movie that has dropped drastically. Also is a movie we've covered on this show.

[Griffin Newman]

It's dropped drastically.

[David Sims]

It opened against Elf. Yeah. Elf has now taken number one. It has dropped to number three. It opens number one. It is an action sci fi sequel.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, it's the Matrix Revolution.

[David Sims]

Yes. Whereas Reloaded had done so well. Revolutions opens big, but drops out very fast.

[Griffin Newman]

Elf was so huge. There's something that feels representative of it being like the thing that Master Commander has to open against. And that. That was just like we got Russell Crowe doing Gladiator on a boat. Isn't that like automatic? 40 million opening weekend, like adult fucking entertainment. And it came in soft at the same time that Elf came in. So much hotter than anyone was predicting.

[John Hodgman]

I'll say. I first watched Master and Commander with our son. I don't know if he remembers ever seeing the movie, but our son and my wife, who's a whole human being in her own right, will watch Elf every day together if they are allowed to.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I mean, Elf is a. I watch it every year movie.

[John Hodgman]

It has stood the test of time every day. I'm saying.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's the only. I would argue it's the last holiday film that basically has been canonized.

[David Sims]

Yeah, absolutely. It's good. It's good.

[Griffin Newman]

It's an excellent movie. And now Jon Favreau is bringing us the Mandalorian and Grogu and I cannot

[David Sims]

wait to meet those Two guys. Number three is Matrix Revolutions. Number four is a Disney animated film. I believe you've never seen it.

[John Hodgman]

2003.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, it's Brother Bear. It's one of only two I haven't seen. Brother Bear and wish

[David Sims]

number five and is. We may return to this box office game one day. It's a film we will cover. It is new this week. It is opening to $9 million, which is not good. It is a fun movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It's Looney Tunes back in action. I could have gotten it with fewer clues.

[David Sims]

Is this where to put this movie? Feels like a summer, not a November.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I guess they're hoping for a Thanksgiving family thing, but, like, it just kind of feels like everyone's like, we'll just see Elf, right?

[Griffin Newman]

I think they had no idea Elf was going to be that big. It is crazy that it's also Alpha's new line. And this is Warner Brothers. Like, they opened against themselves. I just think the expectations for Elf were really low where it was like, if that movie makes $50 million, we're gonna be thrilled. And instead it opened to 40 and then had like, those. Those tight spandex legs. Because Elf ends up at like, 170, 180. Yeah, yeah. No, I think they fucked up on the release of this. But it also, like, Warner Brothers treated that movie with resentment.

[John Hodgman]

Well, yeah, Master and Commander had a Jonah on board. Let's just say.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, truly, it was.

[John Hodgman]

It was charmed. Charmed. But it is so cursed.

[Griffin Newman]

Joe Dante has talked about this where, like, he would get into studio, like, note meetings on the Looney Tunes movie, and they'd be like, now Bugs says this line, what's up, doc? What does that mean? Does he need to say that?

[John Hodgman]

Oh, boy.

[Griffin Newman]

Where he was, like, getting noted by people who didn't understand why they were even bothering to make a little creativity

[John Hodgman]

than people justifying their jobs.

[Griffin Newman]

The movie is kind of about that in a lot of ways. It's like a movie of, like, development execs being like, does this suck now? Do we hate the Looney Tunes now?

[John Hodgman]

I will never see it.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's really good. It's him.

[John Hodgman]

I will not. I will not see a movie about movies ever again.

[Griffin Newman]

It is a movie made.

[John Hodgman]

Sentimental value was the one exception.

[Griffin Newman]

It is a movie made with contempt for an industry that is overthinking everything and not understand the value of these characters.

[John Hodgman]

I'm. I'm officially in my weird dad phase. If it's not about sleeper trains.

[David Sims]

Sure, we hear you.

[Griffin Newman]

I think you would love Back in Action. They go to Area 51 and it's junk Cusack and she has all the great robots.

[David Sims]

Number six at the box office is Love.

[Griffin Newman]

Actually a movie that is a war crime.

[David Sims]

It's not good, but that is a

[John Hodgman]

movie that our daughter makes us watch every Christmas. Yeah, she has extremely good taste in movies and television.

[Griffin Newman]

That is emotional abuse, but she really loves that movie.

[David Sims]

A lot of people love that movie.

[Griffin Newman]

A lot of people love that movie. A lot of people voted for Trump. Not accusing your daughter of voting for Trump.

[John Hodgman]

Oh, no, she's. She's a Maga.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure.

[John Hodgman]

Maga and Maha.

[David Sims]

Thank God. Number seven of the box office is scary movie three, which is made $102 million.

[Griffin Newman]

Was a big hit.

[David Sims]

Yep. Number eight is the definitely not embarrassing movie Radio. No. Whoa.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone walked out of that with their heads held high.

[David Sims]

Number nine is new this week is the Tupac Resurrection movie, which is a sort of like documentary, Right. You know, kind of.

[Griffin Newman]

I, I think briefly had the highest grossing documentary crown or was close to it. And then obviously the next year, Fahrenheit 911 comes out.

[John Hodgman]

Hey, Ben.

[David Sims]

Yeah. He's just went to the bathroom and

[John Hodgman]

when he comes back from the bathroom, I'm going to teach him how to anchor.

[David Sims]

Number 10 of the box.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, he's about to anchor in that toilet.

[John Hodgman]

That's right.

[David Sims]

His Mystic River.

[John Hodgman]

He might do it wrong. Mystic River, I never saw it.

[David Sims]

What's it up to at this point? Which has made $45 million on its way to 90.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So I hear that's a real film.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Light that.

[David Sims]

Well, the thing about it is they save everything for the blooper reel, but they are great. Oh, my God, all those scenes are so funny. Is that my daughter in there? Oh, I fell over. I don't know. Yeah, that's the box office. We will, I guess, yeah, do this again one day when we do Joe Dante, because. Right. That's a Jonah. We gotta do it.

[John Hodgman]

I'm about to get keel hauled by David. But I just gotta say this one thing, please.

[David Sims]

Now I'm done, so you guys can just chat.

[John Hodgman]

Just, you know, I have a better answer for you vis a vis my experience on the seas.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure, sure.

[John Hodgman]

And what I think that this movie captures and I think is part of what the movie is all about, is the powerlessness, literal and figurative, of being on a sailing.

[David Sims]

Totally. Right. You have some control, but you have a lot of no control.

[John Hodgman]

How much control is overcompensated in. In, you know, uniform and in ritual and in everything else. Because they know that it will fall apart if there isn't discipline. Right. But also you are at the mercy of truly unseen forces. The wind. And if someone else has the wind advantage, they're going to win the battle. And if it dies, you're becalmed. And it's you. It's this collision of a sense of control and complete lack of control. It is very tense. Even if there isn't a love interest or an antagonist. Traditional antagonist.

[Griffin Newman]

That is an excellent point, beautifully expressed. And you have finally given me words to explain why I don't like being on a boat. You just described exactly why I don't like it. Powerful and powerless. And that you have a bunch of fucking responsibilities and rituals to maintain, which to me sounds like a nightmare. And also you don't ultimately have if you ever wanted.

[John Hodgman]

And Ben, I'm inviting you as well.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

The wonderful comedic actor and improviser and just straight up great actor, Mark Evan Jackson. He also has the same bug.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure, the boating bug.

[John Hodgman]

The boating bug. And he is a partner in another 120-year-old wooden sailing schooner called the Grace Bailey. Jesse Thorne and I are going aboard in June for four nights to lead a Judge John Hodgman sailing cruise. Truly, it's, I think, sold out, but okay. But the Grace Bailey is an amazing experience. This is interesting to sail on. Mark is on it sometimes. I'll be going back on it eventually.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm not refusing the experience.

[John Hodgman]

It's really, really great. And you know, I would invite David if he wants some master and commander type experience. This would be a really fun experience. The Grace Bailey sail. Grace Bailey, yeah. Now, Ben, here's what you do. What's that?

[David Sims]

Do they have cannons?

[John Hodgman]

They do not have cannons.

[David Sims]

I'll still go though.

[John Hodgman]

But you'll like this because these schooners, particularly the Mary Day is a. Was purpose built for passenger travel in the 60s. But the Grace Bailey and a bunch and five or six other ones, they date back to the late 19th century when schooners were the tractor trailers of the East Coast. There were no roads, there were no railroads. So you wanted cargo moved around, you would fill up a schooner and to move it along the coast, up and down, et cetera, so carry tar, rum, coal, paperback copies of Vacation Land or whatever. And if you wanted to stop the schooner, here's what you do. Any kind of boat, first of all, you drop the lead to see what the quality of the seabed is. Then you drop the anchor, right? And if you know that it's five fathoms deep, for example, you're going to want to let out at least three times and up to seven times that amount of what's called anchor road. The closest to the anchor, it's all heavy chain. Because it's not the anchor that keeps you down, it's the chain. I love it, but you got to pay it out longer because there are

[David Sims]

tides, because if it was too short, it would potentially. It would break. There would be too much tension.

[John Hodgman]

You put the anchor down and then you lay. Essentially, you're laying the chain down along the seabed for a length of time. And it's that weight that keeps you. If you were just holding onto the anchor, it'd pull right out.

[David Sims]

That makes total sense. Yeah, but, yeah, I love when you

[Griffin Newman]

see

[David Sims]

there's like one in. In Long Island City. There's a huge anchor, but then there's also the chain, which. Which is so impressive that it's massive.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[John Hodgman]

And that's how you do it, then.

[Griffin Newman]

So cool. What's a cox, Wayne?

[David Sims]

Coxswain sits when you're. It's a rowing thing. That's for rate. The coxswain is the little guy who sits at the front of the boat.

[Griffin Newman]

So I could be a coxswain? Yes, you.

[David Sims]

Right. You are the actual perfect bill for a coxman. You have to be really loud. You have to yell.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, famously. I can't do that.

[David Sims]

I think you can do it.

[Griffin Newman]

Billy Boyd, he's the coxswain.

[John Hodgman]

He's the coxswain.

[Griffin Newman]

That makes sense.

[John Hodgman]

It's also the steer. The steersman of the boat. And like a. Like a coxswain in. In. When you're rowing, when you're, you know, what. What is it? Crew. You know what I mean? They usually choose little, you know, smaller people.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

To sit in the back of the boat and call out the strokes. That's what a coxswain is. And similarly, in Napoleonic war times, you wanted a smaller coxswain to steer the boat, and that's why they had hobbits to it.

[Griffin Newman]

Got it. Okay, so I'll be your coxswain sometime.

[David Sims]

I definitely think the worst job is the crank, guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, the worst job is Pegboy, but we're not even going to get into that. It's kind of. That's. There's not even an argument there, Ben.

[John Hodgman]

The other way, they would move the boat if they didn't have wind. You're going to love this. They had a smaller anchor and they would put it in one of their side boats and they would row it way out in front of the ship. And then they would drop that anchor way out in front of the ship. And then the ship, they would. Those crank boys would crank the capstan around and pull the ship to that anchor. That was another way you would move if you had no wind.

[David Sims]

Sure. Which they, I think, at one point have to do that at the first battle scene.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah. They have the boats tow it, but in this case, it's like, like, it would be like throwing a grappling hook and then pulling yourself along.

[David Sims]

Right.

[John Hodgman]

Or they would tie themselves to a tree and then pull themselves up if they were. If they were near land or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

So cool.

[John Hodgman]

You understand how fore and aft sails work. What?

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Hodgman, anything you want to plug?

[John Hodgman]

Well, the fore and aft sail is something I'd like to plug. It's an incredible means of propulsion that uses the Bernoulli principle of differentiating air vacuum. Essentially, it works like an airfoil, so never mind.

[Griffin Newman]

Also, I would recommend plugging any leaks in the hull of your ship.

[John Hodgman]

There you go.

[Griffin Newman]

There we go.

[John Hodgman]

I'll tell you what. I will plug my substack hodgman.substack.com well, look at that. Because you get news and little musings from me, but you also get me reading Moby Dick aloud in a terrible main accent. Chapter by chapter. I've been going, I'm only about halfway through, so the good stuff is yet to come.

[Griffin Newman]

And if, and obviously I, you know, I. I don't want to get people's hopes up too high for something that may never happen. But if, for example, Vacation Land ever were released in paperback, I assume that substack is somewhere where it might be announced.

[John Hodgman]

Yeah, you would learn about that [e-mail] and you also get to listen to me read Moby Dick aloud in a terrible main accent. It's not a joke.

[David Sims]

Joke.

[Griffin Newman]

Perfect.

[John Hodgman]

It's a long project that I enjoy.

[Griffin Newman]

Tune in next week for the Way Back. We're finishing Peter Weir with our buddy Alex Ross Perry, who comes in calm, civil, balanced.

[David Sims]

I honestly, I remember that being a fun episode, but can't say I remember what happened.

[Griffin Newman]

I can't remember anything.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I mean, I guess we probably litigate a bunch of stuff with Alex because that's usually how it goes, right?

[Griffin Newman]

He explains how there only ever been two good movies in history, and they're

[David Sims]

both Super Mario Galaxy.

[Griffin Newman]

God, he was coming in hot with those galaxies.

[David Sims]

He really was like. Yeah, he was. Yeah. I think he was trying a little

[Griffin Newman]

hard, but no, I think it was natural. It was easy and organic. Anyway, tune in for that next week. And as always, what's the number one boat fact that you didn't get to share that you came in locked and loaded with today.

[John Hodgman]

John talked about caging. I talk about anchoring.

[Griffin Newman]

Caging is when you, like, get really close to steering the ship, but you.

[John Hodgman]

That's right.

[Griffin Newman]

Cool.

[John Hodgman]

It's. There's a nautical term called gooning.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, sure.

[John Hodgman]

And glazing.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[John Hodgman]

And only the ablest of seamen are capable of all three. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it creates some more semen in the process.

[John Hodgman]

Yep. That's how. That's how it happens.

[Griffin Newman]

That's how it happens.

[David Sims]

And that's how we end our episode.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.