The Truman Show with J.D. Amato

Summary

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Blank Check Podcast: "The Truman Show" with J.D. Amato

Original Air Date: May 17, 2026
Hosts: Griffin Newman, David Sims
Guest: J.D. Amato
Producer: Ben Hosley
Miniseries: The Films of Peter Weir ("Podnick at Hanging Cast")

Episode Overview

This episode of Blank Check sees Griffin, David, Ben, and guest J.D. Amato (TV creator, director, and writer) diving into Peter Weir's 1998 classic The Truman Show, as part of their in-depth Peter Weir miniseries. The panel explores the film’s cultural legacy, themes of surveillance and authenticity, its prescient view of reality TV, and the meta brilliance of its construction. The conversation is as structurally tight as the movie itself, full of signature Blank Check banter, digressions, and rich analysis.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Meta Opening & Premise (00:01–06:42)

• The episode opens with a heavily referential, Truman Show-style cold open, with J.D. as "creator," riffing on the movie’s script and the hosts’ own podcast dynamic.
• Griffin references feeling “Truman Show’d” by his co-hosts when they're called out for their lateness, segueing into the film’s themes of omnipresent observation and manipulation.
• J.D. admits to toying with the idea of “Truman Showing” the podcast hosts in real life (“I had made plans to Truman Show each of you…but it fell through.” - J.D., 04:49).

2. Personal Attachments & Movie Perfection (07:08–09:58)

• David: The Truman Show is “absolutely [a] huge David movie. I think it’s a movie that is possibly without flaw.” (07:11)
• J.D. and the group reflect on the movie's tightness—how every story element is accounted for.
• Ben highlights the kitchen scene’s “domestic violence” moment as more disturbing on rewatch, leading to a nuanced discussion of Truman's psychology and the movie’s moral complexity.

3. World-Building and the Fake Reality (11:15–14:29)

• The hosts detail the internal logic baked into the film—how the fake world starts small (as a way to sell baby products) and expands as Truman grows, paralleling the scope and budget of the show (Griffin: “At every age he gets older, the bigger the show becomes, the more money they can raise, the more they can build around him.” – 12:21).
• Memorable scene discussed: Baby Truman staring into the crib camera.
• Peter Weir’s conceptual approach: Kristoff isn’t a TV businessman but a self-deluding “conceptual artist,” adding depth to Ed Harris’s performance (Griffin: “There is a kind of uncanniness to Jim Carrey...even if you tell him to tone down the theatrics, it feels like someone doing an impression of a normal guy.” – 74:00).

4. Truman Show’s Cultural Resonance (16:24–24:45)

• The hosts debate whether any film since The Truman Show and The Matrix has introduced as singular an idea into pop culture consciousness.
• Discussion includes the lineage of films like EdTV and Pleasantville and the late '90s anxiety over increased media surveillance: "It felt urgent enough in 1998 that it’s like our relationship to media…is hitting a crisis point." (Griffin, 24:45)
• J.D.: “There are movies that, when they come out, become their own conceptual entities that feel like they've been around forever…like the Matrix.”

5. Ethics and Influence of Documentary and Reality TV (26:25–33:15)

• Deep dive on the ethics of observation: Is it inherently exploitative to document real lives? They revisit the 7 Up series, Boyhood, Etre et Avoir, and the increasingly blurred line in documentary filmmaking.
• Ben: “In this weird world we live in where now everyone is public…somehow also it feels like the lines are more blurred than ever.”
• J.D. highlights how reality TV and documentary started with noble ambitions, but now “documentary film is in a really, really dark place because it's been taken over by this sense of control and ownership.” (33:15)

6. Memory, Myth-Making, and Personal Narratives (33:32–38:34)

• Ben shares how we reconstruct personal memory through storytelling, paralleling Truman’s struggle.
• Griffin: “If you tell a story…your memory of the actual event is immediately replaced with the story you just told.”

7. First Experiences with The Truman Show (36:30–39:04)

• The hosts and J.D. recall where and how they first saw the film and its status as a rite-of-passage grown-up movie.
• It was a cultural event—even Jim Carrey skeptics (like Griffin’s family) had to see it.

8. Directors and "Blank Check" Dynamics (44:01–46:29)

• The crew reflects on becoming aware of “director” as a creative force and how The Truman Show was shaped in development hell, with multiple drafts, shifts from paranoid thriller to dark comedy, and shifting directors.
• Peter Weir’s hallmark: seeking difficult projects, “looking for trouble” (60:39).

9. Casting and Performances (73:35–87:42)

• Jim Carrey's casting: a genius move “because Truman Burbank’s a weird guy. He’s not a normal guy. How could he be, really?” — J.D. (74:34)
• Ed Harris as Kristoff: An 11th-hour replacement, bringing gravitas and ambiguity. “He probably should have won the Oscar.” — David (91:03)
• Laura Linney and Noah Emmerich: The actors and Weir developed detailed, offscreen backstories to inform their performances, especially the ethical complexity of playing Truman’s “fake” wife and best friend.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the film’s enduring idea:
  “The Truman Show idea...speaks to the much deeper feeling that everyone has had at some point, which is, am I the protagonist of reality?” — David Sims (17:00)
• Meta-layer of podcasting itself:
  “I feel like I’m being Truman showed.” — Griffin Newman (06:41)
• On Kristoff’s villainy:
  “The more evil than the ‘ratings go up’ guy is the ‘no, no, no, what I’m creating is actually important art’ guy.” — J.D. Amato (15:44)
• On doc ethics:
  “Pointing a camera at something is a subjective action no matter what you do. That subjectivity is radioactive.” — J.D. Amato (22:58)
• On the film’s construction:
  “This is such an excellent example of...it gives you a satisfying answer for just what you need to be able to engage with the story.” — Griffin Newman (107:08)

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The Structure and Mechanics of "The Truman Show" (1:41:54+)

• Detailed breakdown, via time-stamps and plot points, of how the film gradually cracks Truman’s reality:
  • The light falls (3:03)
  • Boat trauma introduced (<10:00)
  • Truman’s first clues, the beach flashback, and “dad returns” storyline (15:39+)
  • Griffin: “This movie is perfectly dialed in on ‘are’” (156:00) – i.e., how realistic Truman’s awakening is, avoiding frustration with either naive or unrealistically quick character awakenings.
• The thematic significance of TV language: The TV crew often references controlling reality with phrases like "cue the sun".
• The episode draws parallels between the Truman Show's world and reality TV failures, like Fox’s utopia and Big Brother live feeds (123:54–131:03).

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The Real-World Fallout & Modern Media Parallel (139:15–140:42)

• They compare Truman Show's world-building to not just reality TV, but the rise of social media influencers and “fake authenticity”:
  “We now—it’s flipped into people are acting fake in our real world broadcasting that stuff back out to us...It is the Truman Show without Truman.” — J.D. Amato (139:16)

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The Finale & Legacy (184:21+)

• J.D. lists the film’s iconic images (“raining on Truman,” “traffic stops,” “Kristoff watching Truman sleep,” the boat cracking the sky, etc.).
• The show commends The Truman Show for its clockwork plot structure, emotional catharsis, and genuinely thought-provoking ending (“Good afternoon, good evening, and good night”).
• The hosts lament that the film didn’t receive a Best Picture nomination and that Carrey was notably snubbed for Oscar consideration despite Golden Globe and BAFTA wins.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On why the movie’s villain is so effective (Kristoff):
  “He’s not a TV director...he thinks he’s making the most profound work of art in history.” – Griffin (15:02)
• On the film’s prescience:
  “It felt urgent enough in 1998 that it’s like our relationship to media, to watching other people’s lives, to 15 minutes of fame…is hitting a crisis point.” — Griffin (24:45)
• On Carrey's casting:
  “Perfect casting...he can be Jim Carrey and bring that Jim Carrey energy—and you’re like, yeah, that’s how a kid who grew up in a weird, faux-1950s, on-TV-all-the-time universe would act and behave.” — J.D. (74:36)
• On the reality TV parallel:
  “Documentary film is in a really, really dark place because it’s been taken over by this sense of control and ownership.” — J.D. (33:15)

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Top Segments & Timestamps

• 00:01–06:42: Meta cold open, lateness, podcast-as-simulation jokes
• 07:11–09:58: The film’s “perfection”; emotional and ethical resonance
• 10:26–14:55: World-building logic—product placement and mythology
• 16:24–17:28: Truman Show and Matrix as generational “consciousness” movies
• 33:32–38:34: How memory and myth shape personal narratives (Ben's therapy anecdote)
• 73:35–87:42: Casting: Carrey, Harris, Linney, Emmerich, and behind-the-scenes lore
• 184:21–185:33: The vault of iconic images—discussing the film’s most memorable visuals

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Guest Spotlight: J.D. Amato

• Promoting his new middle-grade graphic novel “The Endless Game” (Simon & Schuster, illustrated by Sophie Morse)
• Shares his perspective as a creator of meta TV projects, reality TV, and the ethical lines between observation and manipulation (“There’s a part of my life that I’m, like, slowly marching my way towards Kristoff…off and Truman at the same time.” – 134:51)

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Wrap-up

• The crew appreciates the film’s impact and influence, drawing out the progression from Truman Show to TikTok and influencer culture.
• Teases next week’s episode: Master and Commander with Chris Gethard.

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As always:
“Good afternoon, good evening, and good night.” — Truman Burbank (and Griffin, at 213:34)

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For More

• Buy J.D. Amato’s “The Endless Game”
• Follow @blankcheckpod, visit blankcheckpod.com, and subscribe to the Patreon for commentaries and new releases.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[David Sims]

Blank Check with Griffin and David. Blankjack with Griffin and David.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't know what to say or to expect. All you need to know is that the name of the shadow is Blackjack.

[J.D. Amato]

Griffin. Griffin. You can speak. I can hear you.

[Griffin Newman]

Who are you?

[J.D. Amato]

I am the creator of a podcast that gives hope and joy and inspiration to millions.

[Griffin Newman]

Millions? Sounds a little high. Then who am I?

[J.D. Amato]

You're the star. Or the sidekick to some people.

[Griffin Newman]

Was nothing real? Was this all bits?

[J.D. Amato]

You were real. That's what made you so good to listen. To listen to me. Griffin, there's no more truth out there than there is in this world that Ben created for you. The same lies, the same deceit. But in our world, you have nothing to fear. We know you better than you know yourself.

[Griffin Newman]

You never had a microphone in my head.

[J.D. Amato]

You're afraid. That's why you can't leave. It's okay, Griffin. I understand. We've been listening to you your whole life. We were listening when you were born. Ew. We were listening when you took your first step. We were listening when you showed up late the first day to work. And the second day and the third day.

[Griffin Newman]

It was a soft noon. It was kind of. We all know it's more like 12:15.

[J.D. Amato]

It's not the episode of the podcast where you lost your first tooth. You can't leave, Griffin. You belong here with me and David and Ben and sometimes Marie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, mostly new releases.

[J.D. Amato]

Come on, talk to me. Well, say something, God damn it. You're on a podcast. You're live to the whole world.

[Griffin Newman]

In case I don't see you. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. It's a podcast about filmographies, Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear. And sometimes they bounce, baby. This is a miniseries on the films of Peter Weir. It is called Podnick at Hanging Cast.

[David Sims]

There you go.

[J.D. Amato]

Normal.

[Griffin Newman]

Normal. And today we are talking about the Truman Show. And I swear, I know people aren't going to believe because there's editing involved, but I swear to you, that was

[J.D. Amato]

the fifth take that took so long. No joke. The time to which we agreed to start recording this episode and the time it is now. There was an hour difference between those two.

[Griffin Newman]

Many things happened.

[David Sims]

What things happened?

[Griffin Newman]

I was early. J.D. was late.

[J.D. Amato]

Oh, my.

[Griffin Newman]

We had much to discuss. Off mic.

[David Sims]

I. Griffin, calling out a guest for being late. I just the height of hypocrisy.

[J.D. Amato]

Like the Framework is insane.

[Griffin Newman]

This episode starting an hour late because of the intro.

[David Sims]

Sure took a while.

[Griffin Newman]

Intro took a sec.

[J.D. Amato]

I can't believe what's happening here.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm just saying.

[David Sims]

I'm with you, jd, and I'm gonna let you handle it.

[J.D. Amato]

I'm just saying there's times when you have been 45 minutes late to this recording. When I have been here.

[Griffin Newman]

Impossible.

[J.D. Amato]

And sweet David and Ben, I'm sure they have numerous stories of that. The one time that I'm 15 minutes late, I get called out.

[David Sims]

I'm not immediately dangerous road to go down.

[Griffin Newman]

You being 50 minutes late was turned into a Griff slam.

[J.D. Amato]

This is insane.

[Griffin Newman]

David texted, we'll probably get here before Griffin. And I said, I am here.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you were here. You were watching the show. Good job, Ben. Getting Griff to watch special features with you.

[Ben Hosley]

He was here watching.

[Griffin Newman]

What are you talking about?

[David Sims]

Griffin, I know. I. I am baiting you. You have to relax. I swear to God. You, Griffin, are chronically late to blank check. And thus we make fun of you. This is the first time you have to bear.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow.

[David Sims]

You are chronically late to this show. We've been doing it for 11 years,

[J.D. Amato]

and I'm going to jump in decade of treat.

[David Sims]

Okay, that's it. You simply have to accept that you will take some hits on that one. But, jd, what were you saying?

[J.D. Amato]

I was just going to say, you're accounting for blank check. I'll represent the rest of Griffin's having other spheres outside of blank check. This is not a blank ch phenomenon,

[David Sims]

so it would be really insulting if it was blank check. Oh, and everyone else is like, I don't understand.

[Griffin Newman]

I feel like I'm being Truman showed. I feel like you are Truman showing me.

[J.D. Amato]

Can I admit something? Because I didn't do it.

[Griffin Newman]

What?

[J.D. Amato]

But I had made plans to Truman show each of you over the past month. That fell through.

[David Sims]

Oh, you were gonna, like, film us from afar.

[J.D. Amato]

And I was gonna have people walk up to you and talk to you while microphone. It would. It would break two party consent laws recording in New York State.

[David Sims]

It sounds a little creepy.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, well, the big one that I was going to do fell through. That involved. It was going to happen while Griff was abroad.

[Griffin Newman]

Intro. Oh, okay. Okay.

[J.D. Amato]

We could probably piece together.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay.

[David Sims]

That's an ob. I can. I can figure that out. But what about me? I'm more interested in how you were.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, I had. I had ideas for each of you. And then when that fell through, and then life got crazy. I didn't do it.

[Griffin Newman]

So you were going to mic all three of David's children.

[J.D. Amato]

Exactly. And then I decided a lot of

[David Sims]

like, can you not hit each other again? Push and yell and.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, well.

[J.D. Amato]

And then I decided not to do it because I felt like also morally, ethically, it was not as fun to me in a way that I'm like, that would. That was me doing it with friends. What they did to Truman.

[Griffin Newman]

What they did to Truman. Let's be very clear because sometimes people consider discussion, endorsement. We are not platforming Kristoff on this episode. We in no way condone his actions. We don't think the Truman show was moral. Just because we were devoting an episode to it does not mean we co sign the actions of Kristoff.

[J.D. Amato]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

No, I don't co sign. This is a. Yes. This is not a movie that co signs him either. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm doing a bit. Haven't we forgotten how bits were?

[J.D. Amato]

I like. I like a version of. This is actually so fun. I think there's people for whom the Truman show could be an entry point episode and. Yeah, who knows? So I do think there's a fun dynamic that today we have Chill, happy David and worked up.

[David Sims]

Guess what? Guess what I did right before I came here.

[Griffin Newman]

Took a swim. I guessed it.

[David Sims]

Feeling good.

[Griffin Newman]

Simply never filed an article.

[David Sims]

Took a swim. Here I am at blank check talking

[Griffin Newman]

about one of my favorite movies ever made, Truman style. I'd be doubled over on. On the diving board.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I would never touch that water. Simply never.

[David Sims]

Truman probably doesn't even swim laps. Right. Like he doesn't go to the pool.

[Griffin Newman]

I hear he doesn't drink milk either.

[J.D. Amato]

No, I mean in the. The fiction of the universe, they would keep him far away from being comfortable in the water. Yeah, right.

[David Sims]

That would be bad. That would. Right for him to learn how to swim. Yes. Go.

[J.D. Amato]

Go ahead. What you just said. This is one of your favorite movies of all time.

[David Sims]

Absolutely huge David movie.

[J.D. Amato]

I think it's a movie that is possibly without flaw.

[Griffin Newman]

You texted me last night without a flaw.

[David Sims]

I think that might be correct.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, here's the thing. I'll say this under the guise which

[David Sims]

is a different sort of review than like, it's my favorite or it's the best or whatever. But it is a movie where you're like, yeah, everything went perfectly here. Like, you know, or what? Everything I'm being presented with.

[Ben Hosley]

Oh, he's one thing did jump out at me.

[David Sims]

What's that?

[Griffin Newman]

No chance.

[Ben Hosley]

I haven't watched this since I saw it in theaters. And I was a younger man and was a different time.

[Griffin Newman]

But this was basically your first watch in 19 years.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

The stuff where he is freaking out and he puts a knife to his wife up to her throat. The way that it's not a knife,

[David Sims]

it's the slicer dicer.

[J.D. Amato]

It's a sharp thing that could hurt her.

[David Sims]

Yeah. And she says, do something.

[Ben Hosley]

The domestic violence of it all was really shocking. And that it didn't play for me at the time is as being so scary and like how there was almost violence committed.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. This is a man who's not okay. Yeah. Right.

[David Sims]

And his wife is an actor and he's gone mad.

[Ben Hosley]

And it's just the thing where then it doesn't feel like, whoa, he almost just really hurt her.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't really take that. I think it does carries that just the thing.

[David Sims]

I mean, she has to scream, do something. Right. Like the point is like, that's the moment where she, she breaks and she starts. All of them break.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

The moment where Noah Emerick breaks is when he goes like, he's gone. Like, which is when they're like cut transmission. Like the, the, the wall is broken. Right. You know, and that's when she says do something.

[Griffin Newman]

She also was the one. She starts brandishing it. Not that it's like a self defense move.

[David Sims]

She does brandish it. You know, he, he grabs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's leading to the break in reality of like he's already sort of like, what's the fucking deal with this knife? You know, he's like called out the, like her selling products like earlier in that conversation.

[David Sims]

Who you talking to?

[J.D. Amato]

I agree with Ben though. I think it's. I think it's terrifying and it, it shows that this is not a well man and it's, it's not a heroic character in that sense. It's someone who's going through great turmoil.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[J.D. Amato]

Just piggyback on to that comment as well is when I say this is a movie without flaw, I mean in terms of the story elements as I see them today in 2026, obviously I, I can imagine that years from now there might be stuff that even right now you could look at and say there's flaws in that. I just sort of mean it's a really. I meant that in a way that it's a very tight movie that everything seems to be accounted for. Not that it's a movie without the ability to close.

[Griffin Newman]

I get what you're trying to say. Let me, let me help you here, JD does endorse the behavior of Truman in the kitchen scene when he holds the knife to his wife's. I'm sorry. Slicer. Dicer.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes, that's what I was. Thank you, Griffin. I appreciate it.

[Griffin Newman]

You said. Imagine this might be an entry point for new listeners. I think Blank check is now like the. The Truman Dome, where there's only a door and an exit. I think we've trapped a lot of people in our ecosystem.

[David Sims]

How do people enter?

[Griffin Newman]

Blank check.

[David Sims]

No, true, true. The. What's it called, this town?

[Griffin Newman]

I think true.

[J.D. Amato]

The elevators. You see it. You see behind backstage.

[David Sims]

Oh, sure, right. But like. But also maybe how many entrances are there?

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe partially through that door? There probably many entrances.

[David Sims]

No, it's not through that door. Because that door is.

[J.D. Amato]

No, that would be insane. Every day to go to work, you had to take a sailboat from.

[David Sims]

No, that's my qu. Because it's like, if it's a town of what do we think, Like a couple thousand people or something? Obviously they live there. Like the people who are there mostly the main cast.

[Griffin Newman]

The regular. But they got a regular contract.

[David Sims]

No, I think. No, no, no. Way more than that. Because they say they sell property. You can live.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure.

[David Sims]

And like, I think the idea is, like, you're allowed to live here as long as you agree to not, like, run up to Truman and yell at him.

[Griffin Newman]

But they clearly will cast people for new roles.

[David Sims]

Right. But any of these people out, I'm just like, how do they get stuff in? How do they get food in?

[J.D. Amato]

Well, here's the interesting thing.

[David Sims]

You know, how do they get all the ecosystem in?

[J.D. Amato]

You guys were just talking about watching the special features, like the Making of Thing.

[Griffin Newman]

It's one of the privileges of being early to. This podcast can throw on a couple special features.

[J.D. Amato]

Oh, my God.

[David Sims]

Griffin and David,

[J.D. Amato]

there's people who are listening to this episode for the first time who they think Griffin's whole thing is that he's on time.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the second decade of dreams, punctual Griffin.

[J.D. Amato]

But Peter Weir talks about a lot of the. The world that they built and how they envisioned this coming to be. And something I thought was fascinating that they hint at in the movie. And once I heard Peter Weir explain, I was like, oh, right. This is what they're hinting at. Originally, the. The Truman show, as they saw it started with. With just an infant. It was a way to sell baby products. Yeah. And so it was just.

[David Sims]

You are like. Who watched the show when it was just a baby? But then I'm like, At every pass with the Truman Show, I'm like, now I'd watch it like every single time. You know, when I was a kid, I used to be like, no one watch it now. I'm like, everyone would watch.

[Griffin Newman]

The brilliant thing about this movie is that the internal logic is really tight on you. It starts and you're like, how could they have constructed all of this? And the answer is what Kristoff had to pitch to someone originally was really small, contained and cheap. We pick whatever they say. Four or five pregnant mothers, we follow them, we follow a baby. If a baby's awareness is so low, we don't have to construct fiction around them in the same kind of way. And then at every age he gets older, the bigger the show becomes, the more money they can raise, the more they can build around him.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, and then what Peter Weir said was that in their. Their internal logic was that they added a garage that you could see the dad coming home so they could sell garage products to. To men. And then they started like, oh, well, we'll just keep increasing.

[David Sims]

We'll make a town.

[J.D. Amato]

And they sort of hint to that. And you know, they have the flashback when he's a kid and you hear like, construction going on 100 over the hill, which.

[David Sims]

Where they're like, truman, get off those rocks. The most scary image in all in that montage is, though, is when he's in the crib and he sees the cameras in the mo. It's so good. I think about it. Freaks me out so much.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Because it is the, like the innocence of a baby. Like where they're like, yeah, they wouldn't know what that is.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what I. The single.

[David Sims]

Of course I do watch my child through a camera. I do.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But I don't broadcast it.

[Griffin Newman]

And your children listen to blank track, so they're.

[David Sims]

No, they do not. They are certainly not allowed to through

[Griffin Newman]

AirPods or Raycons maybe, if they prefer.

[J.D. Amato]

David's children won't know podcasts exist until they're 18.

[David Sims]

I love the idea of David. I've thought about it out of professional

[Griffin Newman]

shame, needing to create his version of a. We don't have TV in our home.

[J.D. Amato]

Right.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Yeah. You can watch as much R rated movies as you like.

[Griffin Newman]

Radio goes out over broadcast signals.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And you have to listen, don't you?

[David Sims]

The time, Ben, don't you put this out over any broadcast. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

All right.

[J.D. Amato]

No am.

[David Sims]

All right. No fm.

[Griffin Newman]

I promise. I think this, the single best choice Weir makes in a lot of ways with this movie is that Kristoff isn't the obvious Route 1, crass TV entrepreneur sleazeball that he is buying his own bullshit.

[J.D. Amato]

Of course.

[Griffin Newman]

This was like, a conceptual artist, Right. Who.

[David Sims]

The way he dresses. Exactly. That he's like some fudgeing SoHo art guy.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're genuinely like, this guy was probably doing performance art and large installations and whatever for, like, 20 years. I mean, he's based off the fucking Gates guy. Which, when the Gates happen in New York, I was like, oh, retroactively. That's what Ed Harris was playing. But then he comes up with this idea that's like, this is such a big project, but also I could make money doing it. And he. In his final speech, Truman is, like, really buying his own shit. That this is the most profound way of the human.

[David Sims]

He's Truman. This for his whole life.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Like, he's excited to do it. And he thinks, obviously, that Truman will be happy to hear it.

[Griffin Newman]

And he thinks he has done something kind for Truman and made humanity better at the same time, while also making the most profound work of art in history.

[David Sims]

Maybe he did. Maybe it's good. Maybe I'm reversing my opinion. Truman show good.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Truman show good.

[J.D. Amato]

Truman show good. And I think especially a casting of Ed Harris, you could cast someone to say those exact lines into that exact thing. That plays it more like a, hey, I'm a TV director guy, you know? And it would. It would come off big cigar, which was a big 80s trope. Right. Of the, like. The, like, listen, I'm just like, a TV guy, and it's all about ratings, ratings, ratings.

[Griffin Newman]

And, like, even Running man, the Running man is doing it again in 2025 in a way where you're just sort of like, this isn't really the archetype anymore.

[David Sims]

No.

[J.D. Amato]

And I think. I think the more. More evil than the ratings go up guy is the. No, no, no. What I'm creating is actually important art

[Griffin Newman]

because that guy's just like, it's business, baby. Like, people want it. I'm serving them the slop this guy is. It's so pretentious. And there are also other people. And we'll get to, like, the Hopper thing, but there are other people who could have played the character in this form once we're identified the shape of him. And it would have read more like parody versus. Harris is so incapable of being sort of tongue in cheek and sincere that he's lending everything he's saying with the most gravitas it could possibly be given.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. I mean, it's It's. God, this is such a wonderful movie. I love this movie. I also think it's a movie that I don't even know how to categorize this. And maybe you guys can help me conceptualize this. There are movies that just. When they. They come out, they become their own conceptual entities that feel like they've been around forever. It's like the Matrix, you know what I mean? Where it's like. But when the Matrix comes out, you're sort of like, oh, yeah, like that idea that there's this world beneath the world that is operating above and beyond, you know, that it becomes so like. Yeah, of course. That's a. A trope in whatever.

[David Sims]

Right? You live in a simulation.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You texted me last night. Right. The Truman Show. Matrix 1 Two Punch was the season ending philosophical cliffhanger that brought us the mess that was the 2000s and set the stage for the 2000s. I agree with that. Now, here's a bigger question that sparked in me. Has there been an idea that big in movies that has burrowed that deeply into our collective consciousness since those two? Like, has there. In the 21st century.

[David Sims]

So I'm just.

[J.D. Amato]

Ernest Goes to Jail was before.

[Griffin Newman]

That was before.

[David Sims]

I'm just going to hit pause a little bit because I'm like, the Matrix idea. Idea, I think, is the idea you're talking about.

[Ben Hosley]

The.

[David Sims]

The idea that we live in a simulation.

[J.D. Amato]

I just mean I. I know it.

[David Sims]

I want to finish this thought. Like, and I. And I feel like the Matrix, like you say, became like a cultural. The Truman show idea. Yes. There's the, oh, what if your life was a tv? But I think it speaks to the much deeper feeling that everyone has had at some point, which is, am I the protagonist of reality? Like, everyone's had that sort of fantasy nightmare. It's such a pro. It's such. It's such a part of being a person, 100%, especially being a growing person.

[Griffin Newman]

It's in the doss that Andrew McNickel was like, that's where it came from. Sorry. No, Mick, I. I was going to make a joke, and then I realized if you just spotlight that part of the name that I got wrong. It sounds like a slur for the Irish Ben Hosley right here.

[David Sims]

Easy.

[J.D. Amato]

Who.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm not saying it.

[David Sims]

I think everyone needs to settle.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, I think I. You really softened. You really. You really softened it by pointing it. Someone directly.

[David Sims]

Is there an idea since that has entered the cultural consciousness? So I would have to think.

[J.D. Amato]

I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

I was just reading through the dossier and how Andrew Nichol came up with this idea and talking about it being an extension of when you're a child and you reckon with that, like, am I the center of the universe? You know, your awareness, your understanding expands, but they're always. It lingers as like a paranoia. And that he was just like, I wrote this down on a piece of paper. Knew I had a fucking bulletproof idea. You know, I send like one page out to all the studios and people were like, you have struck gold. And I don't know even just in like you and I, David, reading fucking Deadline and everything. And when there's like the new hot project in town, like the bidding war over this. I can't remember the last time a movie had like a sentence like this that immediately everyone went, holy shit.

[David Sims]

I would have to think there's gotta be something.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, yeah, I also think too what I meant even more so than just the premise of the. The Matrix and the Truman show being similar in the sense that there's these sort of alternate universes of just them as artistic objects feeling so primary to culture. Like in a way that I think you could throw Titanic in there and begun. Yes, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

We'd only seen him middle before.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, because here's the thing with the Truman Show. It's not like this idea hadn't been done done before in some ways. Right there. There. There has been a lineage of TV shows and movies that were sort of

[Griffin Newman]

like handling show is a guy knows that his life is a TV show.

[Ben Hosley]

What's the BBC series?

[Griffin Newman]

Seven.

[Ben Hosley]

Seven up.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure. Right.

[J.D. Amato]

That had been around, of course.

[David Sims]

Yes, they're still around, which I. Every seven years.

[J.D. Amato]

And I. I also rewatched it after because I watched the Truman show of whatever a couple months ago when we agreed to do this. I was like, I watched the Truman show then. Cause I was excited. And then I was like, I want to watch the 7up series again. Because I was also going down the sort of philosophical rabbit hole of like, how.

[David Sims]

What does it mean to point a camera at someone and document their life?

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And how does it change their life and all that.

[J.D. Amato]

In what ways have we attempted to do things like this and succeeded in fandom? What were the real ramifications? I feel like the 7Up series is the closest thing to the closest thing to this that we have.

[David Sims]

Do you find having. When you watch. So you watch 7up, which is just. I just found find the most like profoundly moving document. It's so interesting. It's Such a portrait of Britain, you know, at the time and the class system and all that. And then you, you watch 14 and 21 and you're like, I can't watch this. It's so uncomfortable. These poor kids.

[Griffin Newman]

I would argue.

[David Sims]

And then you get past that and then you're like, now it's pretty juicy again like now it's really interesting to see how shook out I have always those middle ones that are tough that

[Griffin Newman]

Linklater's boyhood has this exact problem where there are a couple years middle where you're like, it is too painful. Camera off anyone at that age.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's tough.

[Griffin Newman]

And boyhood like just ends when you're like, maybe this guy's chilling out a bit.

[David Sims]

There's a French movie called Etra et Avoir, a documentary to be.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a very good film.

[J.D. Amato]

It is.

[David Sims]

But there is. Which is about a one room schoolhouse in like rural France taught by this very like engaging, interesting teacher.

[Griffin Newman]

I forgot about that movie.

[David Sims]

It's a great movie, but it is one of those movies where you're like, I think think it was fundamentally unethical to make this. I think this is like this shouldn't have been allowed.

[Griffin Newman]

I was just listening to our friends the big picture. It will be months old at the time this episode comes out. But they were did an episode where they were Talking through the 2026 Best Documentary nominees and how they were like, every one of these movies feels potentially unethical to me.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I mean maybe we're all being too woke.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, but they were sort of just like in this weird world we live in where now everyone is like public, everyone is like to some degree front facing cameras are everywhere. Somehow also it feels like the lines are more blurred than ever in what is supposed to be a sort of controlled, ethical, delineated documentary form. And especially for these like highbrow Oscar docs that are like issues movies. They're like all five of these are like very not self righteous but like this matters and we need to bring light to the subject. And they're like every one of these I watched tensing up about like is this actually moral to do to these people? And that just feels like an extension of life at large now.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. And I think, I mean listen, that pointing a camera at something is a subjective action no matter what you do. Yeah. And that subjectivity is radioactive no matter what because it's, it's something that people are projecting onto when they pointed a

[David Sims]

camera at Ed, you know, for his tv, his mom, you Know, reveals the affair. Trying to think what else happens in that tv.

[J.D. Amato]

I don't remember all the details.

[David Sims]

I know Dennis Hopper sleeps with his girlfriend's His. His brother's girlfriend, Jenna Elfman.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Dennis Hopper plays Ed's dad and Martin Landos his stepfather.

[David Sims]

Correct. Hopper comes out of the woodwork.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, you know, it's just interesting that this is a movie where Truman's dad comes out of the woodwork. And Hopper was originally cast to play at Harris.

[David Sims]

We can talk about that. But of course, the big difference is that Truman's dad is not his dad.

[Griffin Newman]

I know, but I'm just saying. Interesting parallel that is.

[J.D. Amato]

That's the only difference between Ed TV and the Truman Show.

[David Sims]

Well, I mean, I think Ed TV must be discussed, obviously, when you're talking about the Truman show, but it. Right. It's the other. Yeah. Ed TV is the opposite.

[Griffin Newman]

There's another, there's another Pleasantville. All three of them were lumped together. They're very different. But there's like a tapestry there.

[David Sims]

Because Pleasantville has the right. They sort of the American small town, like, fantasy thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Pleasantville was full, magical. Like, you know, what if you lived in a 50s TV show? ED TV is just. What if a guy allowed people to film him all the time? And then Truman show is. What if they constructed a fake reality that kind of was inspired by 50s sitcoms and that was televised unbeknownst to this man. It was just fascinating that all three of these movies came out and it was seen as this real. Like, what feels incredibly, like naive. In 1998. We need to reckon with how much cameras are a part of our lives not knowing how fucking insane things we're going to get over the next three decades.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, but that.

[Griffin Newman]

It felt urgent enough in 1998 that it's like our relationship to media, to watching other people's lives, to our lives, to the 15 minutes of fame thing, to. All of this is hitting a crisis point. And it was abstracted into like three different takes.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, 100%. And I also think it's. There's something interesting that after that period of time, what transpired, especially in television, was an exploration of all these concepts that actually took it, you know, in,

[David Sims]

in, in great ways, great directions.

[Griffin Newman]

Perfect.

[J.D. Amato]

In really problematic directions.

[Griffin Newman]

Obviously, like, you don't endorse the actions of television.

[J.D. Amato]

I mean, I, I'm one to speak, you know what I mean?

[David Sims]

I.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, I'm not going to talk at a term, but I've been, I. JD's been known to make a TV show or two in his day.

[J.D. Amato]

But you know what I mean? Like, I think what's interesting is that a lot of projects start with this idea of observing reality.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

And the thing that people find is that reality itself can be both the most fascinating thing, but also is not controllable in the ways that you want. I think that's one of the fascinating things about the 7up series. Right. Is that the 7up series is not the Truman Show. Right. It's not necessarily.

[David Sims]

It's not on them much either, obviously.

[J.D. Amato]

But I mean, in terms of the thematic, what you feel, right. Because you feel this great melancholy. There's this. There is this beauty that, you know, can bring you to tears because you're seeing this, that. That life has these twists and turns. And a lot of the beauty of it comes from the simplicity of it and the moments of calm. Right. It's not. It's not the biggest, you know, story moments that are the thing that. That make that interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

But also, like, I'm someone who doesn't cry a ton at movies, despite loving movies and being a very emotional person. But if I were to try to actually take a tally of all the movies that, like, made me shed a tear or got me within that zone, I would guess a disproportionate amount of them are documentaries. Because there is an added juice to me of being like, I can't believe they got this in documentaries. I feel like it. It hits me when I watch a documentary that doesn't feel manicured, manipulated, and something happens that feels so raw and can often be a tiny moment. But I'm just like, the fact that this was actually caught.

[J.D. Amato]

Is it the Harvard Ethnography Lab, which I'm obsessed with? So one of a film that I put in my top 10 films of all time.

[Griffin Newman]

Big same, Big same.

[J.D. Amato]

And it's a result of Griffin was that Griffin and I went and saw a screening of Monacomina when it came out.

[David Sims]

You've talked about this on the show before.

[Griffin Newman]

Nepalese cable car movie.

[J.D. Amato]

And I honestly, it's a movie where I. I have not laughed as hard with an audience. We all shed tears at this, like, for. For something that is, you know, 10 shots. Doing its best to observe and curate reality in some way.

[Griffin Newman]

I brought it up before, but just to. To fill in listeners, because also, anytime I say the name, people are like, what the is the title?

[David Sims]

Mana Mana, essentially is how you would

[Griffin Newman]

M a N a K a M a N a.

[David Sims]

Correct. Which is, it's a cable car in Nepal.

[Griffin Newman]

They placed a Camera in a cable car in Nepal that goes up and down this mountain. And they literally just. It was months of, you know, doing trial runs and casting other people and whatever. But what you watch are just 10 unbroken takes.

[J.D. Amato]

Five trips up, five trips down. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Of the loops of this thing.

[J.D. Amato]

And it's one roll of film, no editing, single shot. And yet the curation of those 10 trips told the story about the human experience that is still subjective because it's curating those.

[David Sims]

They're trying to make it as exactly. But they film Leviathan, which is also by the sensory lab, is a film

[J.D. Amato]

I really like Stanford. Is it Stanford ethnography?

[David Sims]

No, it's Harvard. It's called the sensory Ethnography.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Is the program you're referring to is led by Lucy and casting Taylor, who's very interested in all this kind of hidden camera, kind of can we just document life?

[Griffin Newman]

But I, I went to see Monica. Monica because I was like, I'm hearing good things about this and I, I buy my ticket, I go see it at IFC by myself and I'm three minutes in. Like, have I made a mistake? Was this me being high minded? I'm about to be bored.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

Did I forget? I don't like this stuff.

[David Sims]

You gotta. It's the meditative thing of like, you just gotta. You gotta, you know, give yourself over to a. Chill out for a minute.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Guys are floating a tank.

[Griffin Newman]

No, never.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, so I, I did an isolation tank.

[David Sims]

Do you go to vessel? Yeah, yeah. That place is great.

[J.D. Amato]

It was excellent. I think that. How did you like it?

[Ben Hosley]

I only did 30 minutes.

[J.D. Amato]

Sure.

[David Sims]

You go full black.

[Ben Hosley]

That's what I was going to say. I had to kind of slowly ease into it. So I started initially with light while also having some ambient sound. But then remove the light. Had a little bit more time with the sound. And then, you know, my goal was to do 30 minutes of just complete darkness, no input. It was crazy. But I got into it. I got really lost.

[David Sims]

That's what Griffin's talking about. Sorry. Finish your thought, Griffin.

[Griffin Newman]

I see this, I totally get on its wavelength. I walk out. I have like one of the most profound feelings leaving the theater I've ever had from a movie.

[David Sims]

What's best about movie?

[Griffin Newman]

I text you almost immediately and I'm like, jd, I just saw this thing. I need to see it again. And I really think you need to see it. Can we figure out a day we go see it again? I see it like twice in one week and I'm there with J.D. and I'm sort of like, was what happened here collectively with this audience a one off experience? I need to test if the exact same arc of this will happen. You watch the first one, there's like, no talking. And you're like, is this literally just going to be fly on the wall of people not communicating in a cable car? And then I think it's the second ride. There's an old man and a little boy.

[David Sims]

That's what's on the poster.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And like minutes into it, the entire audience all starts laughing at the same time and nothing funny has happened. But it's like your brain is adjusting to what's going on and suddenly you're asking all these questions about the two of them. And it's like, what is their relationship? Are they like grandfather and son? Are they strangers? Like, how do they know each other? Have they gotten here? Are they silent? Because they have no familiarity with each other? Because they have profound familiarity with each other. The little boy, I think is wearing Tom and Jerry hat.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're like, wait a second, does he know what Tom and Jerry are? Tom and Jerry exist in Nepal. Why am I asking that question? What don't I know about, like, Nepalese, like relationships to American media? And suddenly you're projecting all this stuff onto it, asking yourself all these questions. And there is just kind of the funny awkwardness of the two of them sitting there in silence. And then you're like, oh, right. Every movie I watch is communicating like 80,000 things to me at once, whether intentional or unintentional. The choices of the music and the image and the performance and the costuming and the set dressing and the writing and the dialogue is working like overtime to convey ideas, story, feelings to me. And I'm watching like two people sitting in silence and suddenly asking incredibly wide ranging questions.

[J.D. Amato]

And that experience is kind of like, you know, you know, ghost hunters listening to static, right? Where if you just listen to static for long enough time, you start, you start to pick up on. But because our life is so full of noise, you, you don't pick up on these little, little changes. So those changes seem unusual when you focus on that.

[Griffin Newman]

And then like five rides in, it's like two American tourist girls and they're talking, but you're, you've readjusted to how you listen to people speak because you've been deprived of that. And then there's a ride that's just a bunch of goats. And suddenly it's the most captivating thing you've ever seen because you've Met the movie on its level, and now you're.

[J.D. Amato]

Now you're like, wow. The way goats interact is not that different than the way humans interact. And like, we are just animals. And what's the difference? Like, you go into all of these

[Griffin Newman]

places, you imagine Kristoff being like, we're just gonna film a baby. And people are like, film a baby? Well, I gotta tune in to see what this is like. And then they just can't stop watching.

[J.D. Amato]

But here's what I think is interesting that Truman show taps in on, right, Is Kristoff is not just observing reality.

[Griffin Newman]

No, he's not.

[J.D. Amato]

He's doing the thing that we have. We have done through the history of media, which is we take the beauty of life that we see, which is a bunch of goats riding a cable car, and instead we go, well, surely I know how to make that better. I know how to control that, which is doing the village, which is the history of what happened to documentary and reality tv. I mean, we're in a place right now where documentary film is in a really, really dark place because it's been. It's been taken over by this sense of control and ownership.

[Ben Hosley]

We also, and this is something I've been talking to my therapist about.

[J.D. Amato]

We.

[Ben Hosley]

We make our own stories up to process our own lives. Like the, The.

[David Sims]

The.

[Ben Hosley]

The way that I'm remembering things, but even experiencing things, I've, like, built up these stories.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, also, the, the psychological phenomenon that if you tell a story to someone about something that happened to you, your memory of the actual event is immediately replaced with the story you just told. It basically overrides it. So the more you tell a story of your life, the more you're actually remembering your own telling of the story, which is how these things iterate. Where, like, we were texting the other day, David, in the blank check thread about Robert Altman losing best director for Gosford park, because Marie was asking, how in the world did Apollo 13 not win best Picture? And David and I swing in with our. Like, we're ready to answer this. We're thinking about this all the time, right? And we're like, well, Apollo 13, it was like this and then that, and then, of course, like Braveheart's this sort of surprise. And it spoke to how powerful Mel Gibson was at that moment. And Marie was like, so is that why Beautiful Mind won so big? And we were like, there was definitely that element of him being overdue, but also the crow thing and this and that. And then I said, remember how Robert Altman was seen as the front runner for best director that year for Gosford park, because it was kind of a lifetime anointment. And then he made a speech at the Golden Globes that was anti Bush and anti war, and immediately his campaign was tanked. And David was like, yes.

[David Sims]

I was like, yeah, that sounds right.

[Griffin Newman]

And I quoted back a thing from it.

[David Sims]

Looked up the. No, I didn't quote back a thing. But I looked up. Then I looked up the speech and I was like, no, this speech is totally normal.

[Griffin Newman]

You said chickens come home to roost.

[David Sims]

No, no, I wasn't quoting him. I was just saying, like, he did. Didn't he do, like, a chickens coming home to roost thing and that. But that. He did, but not at the Golden Globes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, but, like. And you accepted it. And we're like, yeah, 100%.

[David Sims]

Yes, we are. Yes. We are our own myth makers.

[J.D. Amato]

David's a bit of a Kristoff. Wait, so what. What have you. What have you been exploring in therapy about that? I feel like you finish your.

[Ben Hosley]

Well, it's just like how I thought of myself as a kid and felt like an outsider. A perfect example is I have this memory of being invited to a birthday party by a cool girl.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, okay.

[J.D. Amato]

Flex on us, King.

[Ben Hosley]

And I felt humiliated, and I still showed up, but I felt like she was taking pity on me. And now I'm revisiting and I'm like, what if maybe this girl was interested in me? What if she actually was, like, kind of thought I was funny and I was so in my head and telling my own story about who I am. Like, I'm an outsider. I'm an uncool kid.

[David Sims]

Right. That was your little myth. Like is right.

[Griffin Newman]

Which, can I ask, was she wearing a how's it going to end button?

[J.D. Amato]

Fuck.

[Ben Hosley]

She was.

[Griffin Newman]

And do you still have her cardigan?

[David Sims]

Of course.

[Griffin Newman]

You keep it in your basement next to a collage you've tried to construct of her face from women's magazines taped behind a portrait of your wife.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, I mean, it's normal. And of course I'm going to pick

[J.D. Amato]

up a wet garment.

[David Sims]

When did you see the treatment show, Ben? You saw it in theater. I did. Griffin, I assume, as well.

[Griffin Newman]

I saw it in theaters, yeah. My family, we've talked about this before. Hated Jim Carrey so much, they rejected him. Fell into the classic sort of, this guy's an over actor. He's so obnoxious. He's so annoying. It was like when. When that run of Jim Carrey movies is happening where he's the dominant comedy star. They were like, we don't see Jim Carrey movies. Sit there and watch your Steve Martin movies for the 40th time. We went to see this opening weekend. My parents took my brother and I. My brother would have been six. This, like, it felt like a profound cultural moment where even for, like, Jim Carrey haters, it was like, that's such a good idea for a movie. Peter Weir's a good director. And we all want to see if Jim Carrey can actually tone it down, which was so much of the marketing hook of this movie. Like, don't you want to see if he can pull it off? Sure.

[David Sims]

He's leveling up to a more serious project. Can he do it?

[Griffin Newman]

And at that moment, Hanks is kind of like the reigning king of Hollywood. Jim Carrey's sort of overtaken him as the box office king, but everyone's like, that's the model. Can he, like, speed run the Hanks thing? You saw this in theaters, I assume?

[J.D. Amato]

No, I feel like I saw this.

[David Sims]

I mean, you probably. How old were you? Like, because you're.

[J.D. Amato]

I was born genie than you and

[David Sims]

like, I feel I was 12 when this came out. You're 10. You know what I mean? It's like at that point, that's a big difference.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, so it's a funny thing because also, Ben, I relate to what you're talking about. You know, my family moved around a lot when I was younger, and then

[David Sims]

we landed on the run for the law.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, there was a lot of law stuff we were trying to get away from. And when it finally caught up to us, we were in the suburbs of Chicago. And the thing that was consistent in that was that we would have these, like, family movie nights. And this was an era of the, like, video store era. Right.

[David Sims]

We're all going to go to the store and we're going to pick one movie we can all agree on.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[David Sims]

With these.

[J.D. Amato]

Or often it would be my mom or dad coming home from work with, you know, the bag of the, you know, the blue plastic case, vhs. And you being like, oh, man, what did they get? And it'd be like, well, two of these are for mom and dad, but one of these is for the kids.

[Griffin Newman]

You might like this.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

And I feel like the Truman show was a movie that we watched on. It probably would have been VHS at the time. And I think because of my age, the Truman show might have been one of the first movies that I remember watching that I was like, this is a grown up Movie.

[David Sims]

Yeah, sure, right. It's on that edge.

[Griffin Newman]

That was another feeling of like. This was released in the summer. It was like a big box office play. But I had the distinct feeling of my parents taking me to see this opening weekend and feeling like this is the kind of movie they nominate for Oscars.

[David Sims]

Did they like it?

[Griffin Newman]

They did, but they were like, I still don't know about Jim Carrey. They kind of were like, maybe Peter Weir tricked him and some of it he's still over the top.

[J.D. Amato]

What's so interesting is, did I see

[David Sims]

this with my dad? I feel like I may have just seen this by myself.

[J.D. Amato]

How so? I know Griffin. Your, you know, you.

[David Sims]

He's over there.

[Griffin Newman]

Our guest today, by the way, is J.D. amato. He is the writer of the Endless. We gotta plug his book the Endless.

[David Sims]

Jesus Christ.

[Griffin Newman]

We're holding copies of his new. Do we call it a middle grade graphic novel?

[J.D. Amato]

It's a middle grade graphic novel. It's out now.

[David Sims]

Sort of a Scott Pilgrim size.

[Griffin Newman]

Now this is an advanced reviewer copy.

[J.D. Amato]

That's what you're holding.

[Griffin Newman]

But I'm being told that final interiors will be full color.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes, it's, it's so. It's, it's whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

A 250 page turns black and white. Very Pleasantville. Well, that's, this is, this is the advanced copy only.

[J.D. Amato]

That's the advanced reader.

[Griffin Newman]

It's uncorrected proof.

[J.D. Amato]

The actual. The book will be. It's like. It's a 250 page middle grade graphic novel, full color, illustrated by the great Sophie Morse, who is an amazing illustrator.

[David Sims]

She worked on. What's the show? Did she work on a TV show that the art stylist from.

[J.D. Amato]

No, this is her debut.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[J.D. Amato]

It's a double debut for both her and I. Simon Schuster. In stores now available wherever you buy books.

[David Sims]

Is it available digitally?

[J.D. Amato]

Actually, I don't know if it's available digitally.

[David Sims]

I was wondering.

[J.D. Amato]

I, I don't believe it is tactile,

[Griffin Newman]

physical, physical media, hard copy. And it's soft. It's a paperback. Yeah, but get a hard copy.

[J.D. Amato]

But this is, this is, this is the debut. So I please, please buy a copy.

[David Sims]

Read JD's book and I think and buy it too.

[J.D. Amato]

We've been getting very positive reviews and very, very positive feedback. And I think if you have, if you're an adult that likes graphic novels, that works. But also if you have someone that is 7 to 12 or you know, if you're a voracious reader, that's younger, that's fine too. I Think it's a. It's a very good intro. The middle grade graphic novel space is kind of something that didn't exist when I was a kid, which is that. That sort of the step between, you know, comic books and, like, prose storytelling. So it's a place to sort of explore a story but not have it just be a wall of prose.

[Griffin Newman]

David?

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

They say that the eyes are the window to the soul.

[J.D. Amato]

They do say that.

[Griffin Newman]

What does that make our glasses?

[David Sims]

The windows?

[Griffin Newman]

The window frames.

[David Sims]

I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

The curtains.

[David Sims]

Yeah, the curtains.

[Griffin Newman]

The point is, if you are a glasses wearer like I am, or like our own producer, Ben is true, it's a big decision.

[Ben Hosley]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Because this is how you introduce yourself to the world. This is engage with other people. You make eye contact through the frames. Sometimes it's just time for a refresh.

[J.D. Amato]

Totally agree.

[David Sims]

All right, well, so what about Zenny Optical?

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, Zenny Glasses, the eyewear. They got fun shapes, sizes, and colors. They got a lot of colors, right? Statement pieces. Bold statement pieces, they call them.

[David Sims]

And they're inexpensive.

[Griffin Newman]

I would say they're an online eyewear shop with prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light lenses, all starting at under $30.

[David Sims]

That's crazy.

[Griffin Newman]

That is very low.

[David Sims]

I feel like glasses often cost more than $30.

[Griffin Newman]

Way more.

[David Sims]

But you go to Zenny.com, you pick a frame, you upload your prescription, they ship it to your door. No appointment, no store, no upsell at the counter.

[Griffin Newman]

Easy.

[David Sims]

At that price, something kind of shifts. You're not like, do I need new glasses? You're like, why don't I try something fun? Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Sometimes you got an old pair, they got a scratch on them. It's annoying. But you're like, am I going to go through the hassle? Or the screws start to get loose and you find yourself taking out that microscopic little screwdriver over and over again to tighten them up. At this price, why not just get another pair? Ben, I ordered a pair of the Magoo. I think this is funny.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

We all know from Mr. Magoo, the cartoon, cartoon character who can't see. And Zenny is saying, let's solve that problem. Let's give you glasses called Magoo. They're blue and green, two of my favorite colors. A nice boxy frame.

[Ben Hosley]

You're not agonizing over one pair. That has to do everything for the next two years. Get the ones for work, get the

[Griffin Newman]

fun ones, get some options.

[Ben Hosley]

Get the pair that only matches one outfit at under $30. You don't have to justify it.

[David Sims]

Exactly. They've got 150,000 five star reviews. And if you've never bought glasses online before, they have a virtual try on so you can see how it's gonna look on your face before you commit. If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now's the time. Go to zenni.com podcast and use code podcast15 for 15% off your first order. The style sell out so don't sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I.com podcast promo code PODCAST15.

[J.D. Amato]

The question that I have is that I know Griffin grew up with movies and cinema influence.

[Griffin Newman]

In the movies.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

Talking about it.

[Griffin Newman]

I would ask questions and they would explain it to me and I was constantly searching for more answers.

[J.D. Amato]

The idea of a director is not something that I even understood, I think until, you know, George Lucas or Steven Spielberg.

[David Sims]

Sure, sure. You know, when it's early.

[J.D. Amato]

What was your guys childhood like? Because again in my family it was. You'd watch a movie and you'd talk about was that a good mood? Like was that a good movie or not? And that was kind of it.

[David Sims]

It's a good question. Like when did I first become aware of directors or what? I'm not sure. And my dad was very into movies, but both my parents were. But my dad was very into movies. And I feel like I was so obsessed with the Oscars. So I start watching the Oscars where I'm like six or seven. So it's already very present to me the idea of the director and the people behind the movies. Because of that, I guess would be the first thing. But I saw the Truman show because of Jim Carrey. I definitely had not seen a Peter Weir movie.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, I also think Peter Weir and you guys are in the Peter Weir series is. I feel like he is a director that threw my.

[David Sims]

Maybe I'd seen Dead Poets.

[J.D. Amato]

Oh yeah. Maybe through my adult eyes I can look back and go, oh my. You know, see his career. But he was not someone who was a name director.

[Griffin Newman]

The movies were not sold on him.

[David Sims]

Not really. I mean this one sure wasn't. But that's obvious to Jim Carrey movie. You guys, Ben, I assume also were like, you were, you know, it was a big Jim Carrey movie. That's why you saw it.

[Ben Hosley]

Definitely.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I remember having a profound almost light coming out of the sky, reality being changed for me moment this very year, 1998, when I. My two favorite movies of 98 unquestionably would have been Small Soldiers and there's Something About Mary probably followed closely by A Bug's Life and then this. But I realized, despite now being, like, so obsessed with, like, Joe Dante and the Farrelly brothers as directors, and my idea of, like, there's a sensibility now that I can track across multiple movies with these guys who I like paying attention to the credits in a rewatch and being like, wait, what the fuck? They didn't write these movies.

[David Sims]

Oh, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

And asking my parents, like, what does a director actually do then if they're not writing it? Because in my conception up until this point, probably through seeing this movie, I'm like, well, it's like Kristoff, he's like, whispering in a guy's ear, like, say

[David Sims]

this kind of a classic question. What does the director like?

[Griffin Newman]

You're improvising a movie in real time and just going, like, my ideas are perfect. Go do this, pull this.

[J.D. Amato]

Like, yeah. And I think I, I, you know, for me, I feel like I had that same experience where, when I was a kid, what interested me in movies was that, you know, you got to be Luke Skywalker, that, that that world existed, right? And when you. I understood movies were made. But I think that, you know, when you're a kid, you have this sort of fuzzy line between reality and fiction where you're like, right, I get that Star wars isn't real, but it was, they made it. So, like, it's real somewhere. And they're like, yeah, yeah, people made that. And so, so those people get to live in that world. And I feel like there's this, you know, that childlike version of your, you know, very young, where you don't totally understand it. I think that's what led me down the interest of making movies to learn more. And then I think once you actually start learning the process, it's a very tedious, detail oriented, very slow, methodical process. And so I feel like for a lot of people, people that end up in the industry are people for whom those two circles overlap, for whom a tedious, methodical process is fulfilling in the same way that living in a fantasy world is fulfilling.

[Griffin Newman]

So it can't be to actually follow through on doing it. It can't just be an obsession with the final product. You also kind of have to be obsessed with the process, but the process has to be a match.

[J.D. Amato]

But I think the thing that a lot of people are always in seek of, in seek of, in search of

[Griffin Newman]

seeking in seek of, in seek of.

[J.D. Amato]

The thing that people are in seek of, in seek of is an experience that feels like you get to live in that universe. And what's interesting with the Truman show is if hearing a lot of the actors talk about their experiences is that they basically just lived in that town and they would be shooting stuff so much and pulling things that like, they got to live that experience a little bit. That was Truman show esque of. You never leave set. You never. You're always in this universe, which is, I think, part for some people that is a thing that you sort of hope for. Which I think why you get the Kristoffs of the world that want to try to control these universes. Because there is something interesting, I know for, for myself as someone who grew up very anxious and very, you know, having moved a lot, I just always felt like I didn't know the rules of wherever I was. And so I sort of felt like an outsider in, in that way. And so the idea of a limited universe where you can understand the rules feels very, very exciting, very comfortable.

[David Sims]

It's intoxicating even.

[J.D. Amato]

And I think that's part of what

[David Sims]

Dr. Boss called your money around.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. Which. That's what I've been trying, I've been

[Griffin Newman]

trying to figure out, get to that position.

[J.D. Amato]

I've been. And I, I got there once.

[Griffin Newman]

You did. You said, get in that dumpster.

[David Sims]

And he was like, a little nicer, please. And you're like, oh, I'm really sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

No further context.

[J.D. Amato]

Boss. Not. That was a beg. That was beg. And it wasn even have the status to make that ass.

[Griffin Newman]

You bring up Star wars though, right? That's almost like the definitive cultural touch point of now. There have been like five plus generations who talk about seeing that movie, it exploding kind of their consciousness in a way, and having this, like, how could I be inside of this? Right. Whether or not they end up working in film in any way, it does feel like Star wars remains this kind of like switch flip of like. Wait a second. I'm trying to understand what the reality is that I'm seeing here.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, that was the. How this was made in Star wars for me, because I was like, okay, this is, you know, being very young, being like, what is real and what is not real if I'm seeing all these puppets, right?

[Griffin Newman]

And Star wars is the classic. You read or listen to interviews with anyone, particularly the actors who worked on the original film and are filming in like Tunisia in 1976. And like the, the space between a kid watching that and just being like, I just want to be Luke Skywalker and I want to exist in this world and then Mark Hamill being interviewed about it 50 years later and being like, everything felt ridiculous when we were doing it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, like, the sets ended two inches over here. Darth Vader's voice is like a British bodybuilder. Everything's falling apart. We're hitting each other with sticks. Like, the reality of making something like that doesn't reflect the final feeling that you convey onto people who want to live in that world. And the world is not livable in that sense. And part of what Truman show is providing is like, what if that world was created for you? Isn't that actually a benevolent act? Like, that's what Kristoff's saying is like, what if I could just fine tune a reality for a person.

[David Sims]

He's right.

[Griffin Newman]

And create almost a psychological experiment to give someone the influences to be a good person.

[David Sims]

He's right. Like, he's not. I'm not saying he's morally right, but he's like, I have created a safe world for you in which you are like, you know, your every need is taken care of.

[Griffin Newman]

And, of course, I had to lie to you because if you knew about it, it would destroy your sense of reality.

[David Sims]

And so you're going to leave, and you're going to go into a world that's much more hostile and all that. Like, he's not wrong about that. But it's like, hey, baby, this is why we live life, right?

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. But it's also. I think that's. That's the thing with all of this, right. Is we can't keep our grubby fingers off reality. And so as much as we try to observe it, document it, no matter what, we start putting our spin on it. Just our fingerprints alone are enough to suck.

[David Sims]

Should give it back to the bugs, Ben.

[Ben Hosley]

So I want to answer your question. I am, I think, different than you guys, right? Where for me, I am not engaging with a movie and then afterwards being like, how did they make it? I'm just like, this is beautiful fantasy. I wish I could live in that fantasy. I want to pretend. I want to imagine I'm in that world, not being like, well, how did they make it? Yeah, I'm like, how do I throw?

[David Sims]

I was also a little less how did they make it? Than you guys.

[J.D. Amato]

What I was trying to describe is that I wasn't. How do they make it at all?

[David Sims]

Yeah, you were like, I want to.

[J.D. Amato]

That wasn't. My dad was a college football player, and that was. There was no play. What's that?

[David Sims]

Opposition.

[J.D. Amato]

He was a quarterback in high School, and then he was a receiver. He hated football.

[Griffin Newman]

Sounds like a fucking chad, though.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

I mean, if I showed you. If I showed you a photo. What's that?

[David Sims]

Big, tall guy.

[J.D. Amato]

Big, tall guy. Big, tall, strong. My dad was the big, tall, strong. My dad was.

[Griffin Newman]

Here's in his eyes.

[J.D. Amato]

I would say my dad was the scary dad among. You know, and, like, I feel like group of friends. You're like, the parent that you're like,

[David Sims]

I don't want to piss that dad off. He might be, like, too grumpy or stern or whatever. Yes, I know what you're talking about.

[J.D. Amato]

But my dad was also very goofy. But I only. I say that. Not to disparage him, saying he was a college football, but to say that there was. There was zero. I would say there is zero level of, like, let's talk about the art and craft of this. And it was like, man, it would be cool to have the spawn cape. And it wasn't until, well, teenage and adulthood that I got into.

[Griffin Newman]

My parents, look, were providing that, and I. I was. It was talking to Fen, and he was like, it's interesting the way you talk about your dad on the podcast and make it sound like he was disappointed that you weren't a sports kid, but then yet he had, like, an understanding and the language to talk to you in the thing that you were obsessed with. And I, like, don't want to make it sound like I was like, the, like, God damn it. Hopefully the next one's a jock dynamic in my childhood. But there was that thing of, like, it's not. It was never his greatest passion. And my mother had, like, sort of felt defeated by trying to pursue a career in the arts at the time that, like, I was born. But there was almost a sense of, like, less than. I'm so happy to share our passion with you. It was more like, thank God we happen to know the only thing you want to talk about.

[David Sims]

Right. We can at least answer your question,

[Griffin Newman]

you know, and, like, my. My siblings are, like, more savvy about the industry than most kids would be because they grew up in a household where that was a language. But it truly felt like my parents were, like, God, if he were just, like, into animals and that was the only thing he wanted to talk about, we'd be.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, I feel like, for me, I. I grew up with parents who. My dad was a reluctant college athlete who I think wished he could engage more in the weird arts and music and that. I think, you know, I think that's the stuff that he was actually more interested in, you know, my. Are the. The movies that were on the pedestal in our household were, as I've joked, the earnest movies, all the Muppet movies. My mom was a huge Star Trek fan. She was the type of kid who, like, she would sit outside in her yard and, like, wait for the Enterprise to pick her up. Like, oh, yeah. It was like, that was our. That was our universe. And then, you know, we would once a. Once a week or every couple weeks, you know, we'd get pizza and rent a movie. And that was, like, you know, sacrosanct.

[Griffin Newman]

But, JD the only reason your father wasn't a movie guy when you were growing up is because Real Steel hadn't been made yet.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. The Griffin's referencing the fact that my

[David Sims]

dad's a big stealer.

[Griffin Newman]

I would say that's an understatement.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. My dad. Yes. I just talked to this on podcast the Ride, but my dad did, for my birthday, get me all the action figures of all the real Steel robots.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a real Griff move to be like, I got you a present. Is that thing that I like.

[David Sims]

I'm gonna open the dossier, guys, about the Truman show, because we should look at it. Because JJ did do all this work, I assume maybe he didn't. Maybe he fucking thrown this one in.

[Griffin Newman]

Can I front load? One thing I just. I want to say to Ben, because I've been wanting to say this, and it's like part of what's fascinating about how kind of like, airtight this movie is in its world building. This movie is this very bizarre set of circumstances wherein. And then we'll jump back to the beginning of the dossier. 1994. Jim Carrey has his crazy year that we've talked about many times, where Ace Ventura, the Mask, and Dumb and Dumber all come out in the same calendar year. And he immediately becomes the biggest star in Hollywood. He is so in demand that he lines up so many projects right away. So he basically, by the end of 95, beginning of 96, has agreed to Batman forever, Ace Ventura 2. They're trying to get him to do Mask and Dumb and Dumber sequels. Liar, Liar, end this. And so Peter Weir basically knows he has Jim Carrey, who is an automatic green light. The studio is 100% behind it, but he's not going to be able to film for like two and a half years. And so rarely has someone been given this much Runway to just fucking fine tune a thing before filming with full studio backing. You got Carrie as long as you're

[David Sims]

willing to wait before any of that makes Fearless. It's his prior film after Fearless. What do you think?

[J.D. Amato]

Fearless, I have not seen Drew List

[David Sims]

should check it out. I think it would resonate with you.

[Griffin Newman]

Major influence on David's recent sunglass purchasing.

[David Sims]

That's true. They're in my other jacket, though. Peter Weir picks up a bad case of the Attaches. It's tough. Or perhaps a case of the circles or the mentiones. All right, jj, what is that?

[J.D. Amato]

What does that mean?

[David Sims]

So the Attaches is basically like you make a movie people like or maybe, you know, like, suddenly you're attached to a bunch of stuff that never had happened.

[Griffin Newman]

El Toro has Terminal Attaches.

[David Sims]

Well, he's shaking it a little bit. But Post, like Pan's Labyrinth, it was so bad, right? Where he was, like, attached to, like, 18 super ambitious projects every other week. How could you do this? You know? So most serious of these is called the Playmaker, based on a novel by Thomas Canali Kennelly.

[J.D. Amato]

I can't remember.

[Griffin Newman]

Kenneally, I think.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Which is about the first play ever performed in Australia in 1789, after the year after the colony was founded. So sort of like an Australian historical drama. Because Post, when he comes to Hollywood, he never returns to Australia, really, to make movies about it again. And he made movies about, like, Australian, like, life and identity.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, which I think is interesting because we're talking about so much of our discussion here is about and through an American context. And I feel like that's also something you can't, you know, discount about people.

[David Sims]

You can, but it feels like what he never quite got to make the one more sort of like, I really want to make another movie about Australia project. This sounds like that might have been it.

[Griffin Newman]

We talked about this in our episode with Jennifer Kent on Gallipoli. But he is an interesting case of a filmmaker who feels like he has a really bifurcated career. But it's not that the second act of his career is like, a disappointment. And we were like, it's sort of like Fritz Lang, who has, like, all these insane, bold German films and then goes over to Hollywood and makes great noir movies. But it does feel like kind of two distinct things.

[J.D. Amato]

There's themes that are. You can tell he's gravitating towards the same themes of these sort of the

[Griffin Newman]

Australian films, which I'd never seen before. They're so much dealing with the weirdness of the reality of Australia as this kind of, like, overtaken prison colony, you know, like building a culture on Top of the aboriginal and sort of denying it and all of that. And his movies always have this kind of like realities butting up against each other.

[David Sims]

Some other stuff. He was briefly the top choice to replace Ron Howard making the Chamber John Grisham movie eventually that got made by Jim Foley. Bad movie. He was attached to the Alienist, which was the Caleb Carr book that was like in development hell for 20 years before it turned into a TNT miniseries.

[Griffin Newman]

One of the ultimate attache bait projects.

[David Sims]

Yes, exactly. He was. I don't know.

[J.D. Amato]

There.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a lot of these are.

[David Sims]

Yeah, a lot of these are kind of variety articles. It's like, Peter Weir may direct the Moviegoer, the Walker Percy novel movie Go.

[Griffin Newman]

Fascinating because so many major filmmakers have been attached.

[David Sims]

Had Julia Robertson, Tim Robbins attached. Altman was at one point going to do that. Bruce Barrisford, I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

Malik almost made that the movie. He came out of retirement.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

As well, which is fascinating.

[David Sims]

Yeah. But I think he's just in that classic place where he's like a really established name who makes good movies. So he's looking at so many scripts and he's bored by most of them.

[Griffin Newman]

And Fearless was seen as kind of a flop, but not in a way that puts him in movie jail. And it still gets an Oscar nomination. Yeah, but he doesn't have a weird movie. Right. He's not holding, like a blank check power necessarily at that.

[David Sims]

Maybe not. The way he puts it, though, is when people ask, what are you looking for? He'd say, I'm looking for trouble.

[Griffin Newman]

Wants to be scared.

[J.D. Amato]

That's. That's. That's kind of a cool way of challenge.

[David Sims]

And he said, like, all these screenplays, I read their remakes. If. Even if they're not actual remakes, they feel like remakes. There's a lack of what I call unconscious writing. There's very. You know, scripts are very conscious. They're designed to please financiers. Luckily, Hollywood has been cured of all of that. And none of that pervades in the industry anymore.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's good. We fixed it.

[David Sims]

Scott Rudin, famously normal guy who David was holding for applause, sends him the Truman Show. Andrew Nickel, of course, who is from New Zealand. People forget. So another person from that side of the globe, you know, is a guy who left New Zealand in his 20s. He became a commercial director, starts writing screenplays.

[Griffin Newman]

He's mostly writing screenplays to try to pin to his aspirations to.

[David Sims]

To direct, which jump to directing. Well, he mostly is a director, totally.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just Interesting that I feel like he becomes known as the incredible one sentence pitch guy. Where you're like, that feels like an obvious. This guy just has an endless well of ideas.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But he really was just like, can I come up with hooks that are so good they have to let me direct? You were going to say the best,

[David Sims]

the best thing he ever did was the Truman show, which he didn't direct. Which might, might weigh on you if you're Andrew Nichol. I don't know. Because he made good movies and plenty of bad ones.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, we're all entirely in control of our careers at all times. Completely autonomous decisions.

[David Sims]

He pitched this idea to his manager in the early 90s. The Malcolm show, it was called back then, but it is, it is the Truman Show.

[Griffin Newman]

You just have to imagine that everyone literally like fucking starts jumping up and down with that one sound.

[David Sims]

He wrote this before he wrote Gattaca, which is of course his directorial debut, which comes out before the Truman show because he wrote this first.

[Griffin Newman]

The Truman show period is so long off the heat of having Carrey attached, he's able to set up Gattaca and get it made as a director before this even, I can tell you. Please.

[David Sims]

Scott Rudin buys the screenplay for a million dollars in 1993. Paramount comes aboard, he does a screen test. Nicol directs a screen text with the test starring Gary Oldman.

[Griffin Newman]

He's trying to convince him he can do it.

[David Sims]

They look at the screen test and they say, Andrew, you will not be getting $80 million. I'm sorry to tell you this now, but like, no, we will not let you direct this.

[Griffin Newman]

This is too big for a first time director.

[David Sims]

As he puts it. I made the mistake of writing my most expensive film first. Which is a good way to put it.

[Griffin Newman]

And another example of how Hollywood has fixed itself now. They don't make the mistake of even letting a first time director do a screen test for an $80 million movie. They just give $200 million to first time directors right off the bat.

[J.D. Amato]

Like who?

[Griffin Newman]

The Maleficent guy?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Joseph Kaczynski. Disney was really kind of very guilty of doing it for a while.

[David Sims]

Right?

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So we're so some of the people considered Brian De Palma. Makes sense.

[Griffin Newman]

Makes sense. Voyeurism, Cameras.

[David Sims]

Brian Singer.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, camera surveillance.

[David Sims]

David Cronenberg. Again, makes sense. Although you cannot imagine him being handed a big budget.

[Griffin Newman]

The cameras are in your nipples, Cronenberg.

[J.D. Amato]

Truman show would be fascinating.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it would. It would be interesting.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And the Bryan Singer. Truman show would have gotten 10,000 people arrested.

[David Sims]

Weir reads the script, thinks it's interesting and is like, I think it's too challenging. I think the suspension of belief is just too challenging. Like I don't think I can convince people that this would exist. Which is the, that that is the trick with Truman's show. That it kind of does like get you on board with like, yeah, yeah, this is real.

[Griffin Newman]

And if you're off by a financially sustains itself, the whole thing is going to collapse. If people are too bus getting hung up on questions that the movie can't answer. The answers aren't satisfying, but he can't

[J.D. Amato]

get it out of his mind.

[David Sims]

Can't stop thinking about it. So he says they went through 14 drafts. Original draft is much darker. In the original script, there was an innocent passenger attacked on a subway as a way to test his courage. He has a relationship with a sex worker who he dresses up as Sylvia. Like, you know, like they make the magazine thing more literal. The original movie script that he has a drinking problem. Like, you know, it was grimmer and Weir was just like no one would watch this show. Like it's too grim. The whole point is the show needs to be attractive to people.

[Griffin Newman]

Well also beyond that, like when he pitches it to his manager, the the quick log line is like Malcolm is the star of a 24 hour continuous soap opera in the future, but he doesn't know it. He has been filmed by hidden cameras every second of his life. The Malcolm show has been running since his birth. The show has 16 producers. All his family and friends are actors. All the strangers that he sees in the streets are extras. And he immediately goes, obviously this should be a paranoid thriller.

[David Sims]

Paranoid thriller set in New York City.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Starts writing it as and like pretty quickly, even before directors are coming on. Rudin is like, is that really the tone? And there was like versions of it where it's like it's a twist that's revealed to the audience halfway through. You know, I think he just thinking of it it in the most serious execution of that idea.

[Ben Hosley]

It's funny though hearing this because reality television, the ecosystem of it isn't it just all basically alcoholics misbehaving.

[David Sims]

Wait, what? Those guys are up to no good.

[Griffin Newman]

They're in trouble and like physically attacking each other.

[David Sims]

Yeah, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

Like, it's just so delightful that it's like, well, reality television people would love to see people being nice to each other.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Ben Hosley]

In a quaint little town. It's like couldn't be completely.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean let's say giant pen in this?

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. Yes. Giant pin in this. Giant pin in this.

[Griffin Newman]

But. But it's also funny that, like, they're like. They had this whole plot line where Truman is like, having a sort of non physical affair with a sex worker who he makes wear the cardigan of the Natasha McKellen character and, like, act like her so he can pretend he's still with her. And he thinks it's his dirty secret, but he doesn't know the world is like, seeing him have this sort of emotional affair and they were just sort of like, this feels like too much for the audience to be, like, watching. And would they root against Truman? And then I'm like, wasn't Scandal the single most important thing, I guess that happened in America in the last 10 years?

[J.D. Amato]

I have so many thoughts on this.

[Griffin Newman]

Certainly was treated that way. Anyway, go on. So another giant pen.

[David Sims]

Sure. Just Weir starts thinking harder about, like, Kristoff, you know, like, we've talked about this a little bit already, and the vanity of this guy, how he feels like he's creating the ideal human being, the true man, and making a ton of money at the same time.

[Griffin Newman]

True man, you say.

[David Sims]

Exactly. And so, you know, he doesn't want it to be like a polemical movie. He wants it to be an entertaining movie, which is great, but I think that's the right approach. Like, I think if it was too hectoring, which I think is the problem with every single Andrew Nichol movie, when Nickel is just in charge of it.

[J.D. Amato]

That's the problem.

[Griffin Newman]

What if time was Money, though?

[David Sims]

Sim. Sim 1. Or Simone, you know, like, you know, like all these movies where I'm like, great pitch. And then he's like, do you get my pitch? And I'm like, I. I got your pitch. Lord of War, he's made of bullets. Like, you know, just. Shh. Andrew, quiet.

[Griffin Newman]

This is why I'm like, pinpointing, spotlighting the thriller thing, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that like all of his movies he directs? I like Attica a lot.

[David Sims]

Gattaca is his best movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

Obviously.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But otherwise you're like, what an incredible concept. And kind of have the exact wrong approach to what the most interesting version of that story is. The concept is like, so powerful and then like, dramatically he's like, attacking it from the wrong angle. And it's not like he's always taking the same wrong approach. It just always feels like his direction was off. And I think this is one of the best examples of good Hollywood development. Like, this is the rare case of every starting idea was powerful, but Off. And every choice they make off of that, massaging it for three years is like, what fixes it.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, there's a funny meta thing too, because, like, the discussion you're having right now about that is like, in its own way, a play acting of the discussion TV executives might have over the development of a show like the Truman Show. And what's, I think, interesting is that no matter how much you try to put a veneer of like, no, no, no, no, it can't be that. It has to be. We have to. We have to make it happy and good and whatever. As we discussed at the beginning of this. Like that. That darkness will find. You know, life. Life's gonna find a way through the cracks of whatever you try to patch over.

[David Sims]

Okay, Ian Malcolm.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay, You've called me Ian Malcolm so many times.

[David Sims]

Five o' clock, shout out. He's got kind of an Ian Malcolm thing going on right now.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, listen, lanky, handsome, I just don't

[Griffin Newman]

understand why you keep calling me Dennis Nedry. Yes, I'm wearing a raincoat and I'm covered in dinosaur ink all over my face.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes, you're wet for no reason. Scott.

[Griffin Newman]

Stay away from me.

[David Sims]

Before Scott wouldn't even starts talking to Peter Weir. He's. He's circling Jim Carrey. But then he does say to Weir, like, look, you might not know who Jim Carrey is. And we're is like, no, no, I like Jim Carrey.

[J.D. Amato]

It'd be funny for Peter weird to be like, I've never heard of this.

[David Sims]

Well, I think Scott Rudin, because remember, it's the earlier 90s. I think Scott Rudin's thing, like, you're too crass to have seen like a Venture, right? I mean, like, sorry, you're not like, that movie's too crass for you.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's also. It's like with within that year, when he's exploding and he's like, is that guy paying attention to what are seen as juvenile comedies?

[J.D. Amato]

Peter Weir.

[David Sims]

To quote Peter Weir. Okay, I'd seen a poster in the video store of Ace Ventura, and I liked the look of the guy in it. I sensed an energy I was to see in the film. He says, four minutes into Ace Ventura, it was apparent this man was remarkable. And I thought, how fascinating he's interested in the Truman Show. Like, I guess he's basically like, he's got live energy I want to tap.

[J.D. Amato]

I imagine that Peter Weir is staring at a poster of Jim Carrey talking through his butt.

[David Sims]

The poster of the.

[J.D. Amato]

Of as him holding up the car, the big card.

[David Sims]

The first four minutes of Ace Venture, which are one of the best parts of the movie. Him with the box.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. If you remember the fake.

[J.D. Amato]

There's some rough stuff in the opening. In the opening. There's some rough stuff.

[Ben Hosley]

Wait, really?

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, I rewatched it. I mean, I can't remember. I remember re watching it in the first four minutes going interesting.

[David Sims]

I. The box. I remember just. That's just like pure Carrie comedy.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So good.

[J.D. Amato]

It's, it's him going full blast.

[David Sims]

But the blowjob from the client, like, come on, what are you talking about?

[J.D. Amato]

There's just a handful. Yeah. Listen, who knows why I like the

[David Sims]

adventurer now is because it's such a dark, nasty movie. It's so weird like it is and like it doesn't. Yes, it's problematic.

[J.D. Amato]

It's a movie without flaw, as we'd established.

[David Sims]

I can't believe this was a four quadrant hit. Because it's like a nasty movie.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. And I'm, I'm, I'm sure I little 9 year old J. I loved it

[David Sims]

and like all the nasty just flew right over my head. Like truly.

[Ben Hosley]

They made a Sunday cartoon out of it.

[Griffin Newman]

They did it Saturday morning. They wouldn't put it on the Lord's day.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that doesn't belong there. You're right.

[Griffin Newman]

Ace needs his own day. I mean, this is the other stupid stat I love to bring up when we talk about how big carries 95 was. He has three ginormous hits in one calendar year. All three of which were so big that a year later they all have Saturday morning cartoons. There was Mask, Dumb and Dumber and Ace Ventura cartoons airing simultaneously on three different networks.

[David Sims]

I truly challenge our listeners to clip out the amount of times Griff has said that on this.

[Griffin Newman]

I hope it's a five times a lot.

[J.D. Amato]

What's. What's the last movie? What's the last movie?

[David Sims]

The last movie.

[J.D. Amato]

Oh, that's it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay, great. The last movie. The last adult movie did become Saturday morning cartoon. You know, not. Not because obviously I'm not going to count like boss baby or like whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

Saturday morning cartoon basically doesn't exist.

[David Sims]

Kind of doesn't exist anymore.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I would say the answer is Netflix did do like 60 episodes of a terrible CGI Fast and Furious cartoon.

[David Sims]

Another thing Griffin's brought up I would like people to clip out several times.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm very disappointed with that show. I wish they had brought me in. I had a lot of big ideas.

[David Sims]

So Peter Weir is interested in Jim Carrey. You Know says he's like a wicked naughty boy in a man's body. He has real electricity that could crack glass. I mean, that's all interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

You're like, surprising and then what suddenly becomes clear and perfectly fits vocabulary. I've just been gifted. Is Ace Ventura a bit of a larrikin? Is Jim Carrey a bit of an American larrikin?

[David Sims]

Larrikin, to be clear. J Key, in case you don't. J.T. j.T. J.D.

[Griffin Newman]

j key.

[J.D. Amato]

I thought you said J. King. Which J.

[Griffin Newman]

King I'll take. Well, there's only one King.

[David Sims]

It's sort of an Australian word for like a rascal. Like kind of like a ne' er do.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, Jennifer Kent told us and. And now I'm gonna use it the way Nick Wagart uses unka pachka.

[J.D. Amato]

That's great. I love it.

[David Sims]

So first meeting her, Jim's kind of nervous and so he says, let's go to the bathroom. Let's fuck around. And he does the soap thing.

[J.D. Amato]

No, like, Carrie's like, you know how normal meeting goes, let's go to the bathroom and fuck around.

[Griffin Newman]

Harry pitches and stuff.

[David Sims]

We're pitches Carrie. Like, I think your character would be doing weird things in the mirror. And Carrie's like, okay. And they go to the bathroom mirror and he does the soap thing.

[Griffin Newman]

I walk in, I'm watching deleted scenes. Ben goes, man, this is why you hire Jim Carrey here. And it's just raw footage of him doing extra mirror stuff. And I'm like, ben, literally, I'll tell you on Mike. But it was the first thing Carrie came up with and like, shows him in real time.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

There's the thing in here that we're said that makes so much fucking sense to me beyond just like the energy and his talent and his box office viability, but that he's like. There is a kind of like, uncanniness to Jim Carrey. He feels kind of like a fake person. Where even if you tell him to tone down the theatrics, it feels like someone doing an impression of a normal guy.

[J.D. Amato]

Which I think is why this is such an excellent first foray into non primarily comedic acting work for Jim Carrey is because Truman Burbank's a weird guy. He's not a normal guy.

[David Sims]

No. How could he be, really?

[J.D. Amato]

Exactly. And so any inconsistencies in the performance that feel sort of like a little. A little extra fit right in with this character, which is why it's like a perfect casting is because he can be Jim Carrey and Bring that Jim Carrey energy. And you're like, yeah, that's how a. That's how a kid who grew up in a weird, faux 1950s, on TV all the time universe would act and behave. And so it fits right into the pocket of excellent performance. Because even if he veers into Jim Carrey stuff, you're like, yeah, Truman Burbank's a weird guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Jim Carrey is also just like a peak kind of raised by TV guy, right? Like, yes.

[David Sims]

Not.

[Griffin Newman]

Not. He talks a lot about his parents. It's not like they were absentee. But it, you know, it's like that generation of people who were just like, we learned the world through media. We had more media than anyone had ever had before. And here's a guy who, like, becomes a comedian getting up on stage and doing impressions of, like, 70 different actors and making his name off of that. He's clearly in this loop of, like, referencing and warping the media he grew up in. And yeah, it's like, what we're smart about is I, you know, I'm fascinated by, like, anytime a comedian tries a big dramatic performance for the first time, especially if it's not like we're gonna put John Candy in one scene of jfk, it's still a vehicle. And the people who survive that translation, people who don't is that often, I think without a steady hand behind them, comedians will just be like, got it. I just need to turn down the energy. And then people are just boring, Right?

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

They're like, right, well, I need to play it serious. And then they just like, crank their motor down to one, and then they're just kind of giving a sleepy performance because they're. So is the ultimate example where I'm just like, all. I don't. I think he's a very good actor, but it feels like he's self conscious about not letting the comedy creep into his performances anymore. Whereas, like Little Miss Sunshine is like, to me, an excellent dramatic performance where he's recognizing that that guy has humor in him as a person without being a sketch character. And Truman is like, such a smart use of him where it's like, you're not taking Carrie's energy away. You're sort of redirecting it.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, I also think we're going to start seeing that less and less because we're in a period of time where, as we were discussing, is legal comedy is illegal. Yeah, that's what I'm getting at.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

No, but it's. It's what we're discussing before this, which is the state of the television, film industry is such that, you know, being in a movie or on a TV show is not a life changing step up in your career. And for a lot of comedians especially, it's actually more of a, a fun thing they do on the side that is separate from the thing that actually makes them their money and is their main career. Because, you know, there was a period of time in the 90s where it was like, you know, the dream was you're this comedian who has this comedy career and then you get absorbed into the mainstream world of film and television and now you're on easy street and now you're like a big celebrity and, you know, that's turned on his head. I think, I think if anything that exploration to film and TV is more of like a, a side hobby or an exploration more than it's a, a chance to level up. Because for a lot of comedians, they're, they're, they, they make a better living doing the thing that they do.

[Griffin Newman]

But. Right. Which can be any number of things, but like the A list thing too of. And they're like two, three people left who have this. I would say, where it's like every year I am making one big chess move on the board. I am thinking thoroughly about the weight of what I pick and that represents like, this is the Jim Carrey movie of this year and people are waiting and is it going to be building on what we already like from the guy or is it going to be a subversion? And like part of the whole like weird cable guy backlash was people being like, I don't like this darkness put on top of manic carry. And it's like, gotta, gotta, got it. We're switching Liar, Liar, scary part is gone. He's just doing funny stuff. And so it is part of like this movie being announced of like, Harry wants to like do something different. Everyone is leaning in to see what that is. It means something rather than like, Jason Bateman has done like four different TV shows where he plays a psychopath. And it's never treated as like, holy, Jason Bateman went dark.

[David Sims]

Well, yeah, because he's really plausible. A psychopath.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, yes, but, but I don't think there's a single person who could do that today. And it would be mind blowing. And part of that is we don't have. There's no one like a list comedy movie stars.

[David Sims]

Yeah, right.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. It's interesting because you're right. It's not even. Back then, it wasn't even. Oh, you're A stand up. You're a this and you're going into movie and TVs. He was a. A, A comedic movie star. He was comedic movie. Changing genre.

[David Sims]

But he's a very fresh one, like as much, you know, so he's still pretty fresh.

[Griffin Newman]

It's. It's this. Is this first batch, like 95 is this weird, like, parallel thinking. The industry is like coalescing around him as.

[David Sims]

No. 94.

[Griffin Newman]

Sorry. Thank you.

[David Sims]

95 is Batman Forever.

[Griffin Newman]

Good scripts. This guy's talented. He doesn't cost much. And suddenly all of those movies, like, hit, right? And then, right. This lineup of things that are him trying to test, like, okay, every move I make now is going to have the eyes of the world on it.

[David Sims]

Little bit. Well, 95 is Batman forever. When nature calls. When nature calls, he's like, ugh, I don't want that to happen to me again. No more sequels.

[Griffin Newman]

Bows out a mask. And dumb and dumber too, right?

[David Sims]

Cable guy. People don't like it that much. Bit of a cult hit. He does. Liar, Liar.

[Griffin Newman]

He becomes the first $20 million star in Hollywood. He becomes the symbol of the top of the pyramid. The guy who, yeah, is. Is covering half the budget. Just a salary.

[David Sims]

Liar, Liar. We have to admit it.

[Griffin Newman]

You can't lie.

[J.D. Amato]

I feel like he barely.

[Ben Hosley]

To us.

[J.D. Amato]

David, he barely ever lies in that movie.

[Griffin Newman]

David can't lie.

[J.D. Amato]

David barely ever lies.

[David Sims]

Trust me. Trust him.

[Griffin Newman]

Trust me. We're doing that.

[David Sims]

Your honor, I object. Why? For what reason? Because it's devastating to my case. That's my favorite joke. And Liar, Liar, like, and he's so good at all that shit. Like the. He's compelled to say the truth.

[J.D. Amato]

I feel like we've talked about this and forgive me if we've done it before on the podcast, but like, especially in the.

[David Sims]

Like he says, overruled. He goes, good call.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. Especially in the early 2000s. There's lines from trailers that are stuck in my mind, and that's one of them is I feel like there is a trailer where that line pops up. There's also like the. The one that I always love referencing is the like, you put the wrong and fastest on the wrong side syllable. Which is a movie that, like, pause listeners. I mean, I think blank check listeners will know, but like, the average person's like, I know that line, but what that. What movie is that from? And you're like, Bruno Barretto's A View

[Griffin Newman]

from the Top, obviously.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, A View from the top, Duh. Yeah.

[David Sims]

The golden age of trailers.

[Griffin Newman]

But that that's another example of, like, that's not a. Holy shit. They struck, like, gold. Truman show. Like, deep premise, but the second America was told. Here's the movie. Jim Carrey can't lie.

[David Sims]

He can't lie. He was a lawyer and he can't lie, people. What do lawyers do?

[J.D. Amato]

Oh, my God.

[Griffin Newman]

They were sending money to the theater in advance. It was. That's all I need to hear. Yeah, I can fill in the blanks. He's just gonna do for 90 minutes.

[J.D. Amato]

He can't lie. But then what happens if he gets a speeding tip? Oh, my God. Surely in that situation he'd lie.

[Griffin Newman]

I like that. They were like, everyone loves Jim Carrey for his physical comedy, but this movie is premised on a verbal trait. And they were like, don't worry.

[J.D. Amato]

Am I crazy that there's, like, three movies of that with him that are like. It's like that. Me, Myself and Irene. Correct. And then there's another one. Yes. Which are like, all very, like, I can't say no.

[Griffin Newman]

He's gotta say yes. Yes man sucks. Because yes, yes man does suck. Yes man is like, There's a guru. I think it's Terence Stamp.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Who he's just, like, listening to.

[Griffin Newman]

Writes a book that's like, philosophy.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's like, I'm gonna do that. Yes.

[David Sims]

Like, but what's good about Me, Myself and Irene? Which is a flawed movie, but I

[Griffin Newman]

don't like that movie.

[David Sims]

Right. But, like, the physical comedy is strong because it's like, it is beyond his control. What's happening. Carrie can play that very funny. Like, that's what he's always been good at.

[Griffin Newman]

His performance.

[David Sims]

His body is overtaken.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[J.D. Amato]

You know, Me, Myself and Irene is like.

[David Sims]

It's a nuanced portrayal of split personality.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. Right?

[David Sims]

Yeah. It was a nice one. And a mean one.

[Griffin Newman]

Disassociative identity disorder. It's Charlie and Hank. Hank is not a nice.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay, wait. And the premise of yes man is that this is like more of like a self help thing that he's doing.

[Griffin Newman]

He goes to a self help seminar. This guy wrote a book on the power of yes. And he's like, I'm gonna do that. And then the rest of the movie, everyone's like, just stop. And he's like, no.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, I guess he says he.

[Griffin Newman]

He refuses.

[J.D. Amato]

And the movie stops right there. Okay, here's a pitch.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a point in yes man where he's gotten himself into, like, immense legal trouble. And his best friend is Bradley Cooper, who's a Lawyer. And he has to show up and say, I'm sorry. He made this stupid deal with himself that he's gonna say yes to everything

[J.D. Amato]

and remind me, liar, liar. What's the magical. It's like a birthday son. It's a birthday wish.

[Griffin Newman]

A wish. When he blows out the candles on his birthday cake because party that his father didn't attend. His father said, of course I'll be there.

[David Sims]

And then, well, he says for a wish for one day, my. You know, my dad could not lie.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay, I got a pitch. Go ahead. He goes to the self help seminar. This is going to be my year of yes. As he is starting that journey, suddenly it's birthday time. Candles go out. He gets liar, liard in the middle of the year of yes. Yeah. You're like, what's this? Man can only say yes to things and he cannot lie.

[Griffin Newman]

So he's saying no to everything.

[J.D. Amato]

So it's. It's chaos gonna unfold.

[Griffin Newman]

He doesn't want.

[J.D. Amato]

You're like, it couldn't get any crazier than this. And what does he see on the ground?

[Griffin Newman]

What?

[J.D. Amato]

A green mask.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, my God.

[J.D. Amato]

What happens when the mask can't lie and can't say no?

[Griffin Newman]

This is really good.

[Ben Hosley]

What would it be called? It would be called no, honestly, smoking.

[J.D. Amato]

No, honestly, smoke it. That's what he's. That's his catchphrase.

[David Sims]

All right, okay, okay, Everyone shut up.

[J.D. Amato]

Steve Corey, why did this make you hurt?

[David Sims]

Because we're so off the rails.

[J.D. Amato]

Why did this make. We're good. We're good.

[David Sims]

But, Carrie, I want to say this, okay? I think this is important.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Carrie's biggest inspiration for his performance in the Truman show is his father, who he says was very much like that. The kind of like, hi, how are you? You know, starts laughing before, like, you even tell him how things are doing. That kind of like, mega friendly, ray of sunshine, affable kind of guy. He said his whole family are like, are you doing that? Yeah, he almost drowned in the water tank. That's a big part of the lore of this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, he did. And that was when they replaced him with the first Jim Carrey clone.

[David Sims]

Right, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Who runs from 99 to recently 2000.

[David Sims]

We're not quite sure when.

[J.D. Amato]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

No, because Hoppers was a new guy.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. He was settling in.

[Griffin Newman]

That was not.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, Hoppers is like, what the bond who did one and then was

[David Sims]

Chuck this one out?

[Griffin Newman]

It didn't work.

[David Sims]

Originally cast as Kristoff, as Griffin noted as Dennis Hopper. Very different energy. Very different to Imagine, like, Hopper.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, come on.

[David Sims]

You, like, just screaming at everyone, truman, talk.

[J.D. Amato]

You can hear me. Weird.

[David Sims]

Weir says, I cast him before I really had an idea of who Kristoff was gonna be when, you know, by the time he came to filming, differences arose is how he put it.

[J.D. Amato]

He says that Dennis was Dennis Hopper.

[David Sims]

He says that Dennis was understanding and gracious.

[Griffin Newman]

Hopper did film.

[David Sims]

I think so. I mean, they started filming. Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

Release the Hopper. Cut.

[David Sims]

He toyed. We're toyed with playing the role himself, which is really interesting because he's, like, as director, it did kind of occur to me that, like, whoa, there's, like, that kind of God complex.

[J.D. Amato]

That would have been fascinating.

[Griffin Newman]

It's also the.

[David Sims]

What director hasn't wanted to say. Cue the sun is what is joke.

[J.D. Amato]

There is. There is, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

This surprising thing about Weir that we found is that he, like, basically started in sketch comedy.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he did. Although it's because in Australia, that seemed to be the only way to do anything in the 70s.

[J.D. Amato]

What were you gonna say? Well, it's funny because I'm not that I wasn't that tapped into Peter Weir in his whole life and universe. And the more I heard about it, I was, like, kind of parallel to you. Yeah. I was like, is this. Is this kind of the. Is Peter Weir kind of the career that I wish that I could.

[Griffin Newman]

It doesn't sound like he.

[J.D. Amato]

I mean, of course it is. He's one of the most incredible directors.

[Griffin Newman]

It doesn't sound like he ever had, like, designs on performing professionally, but it does sound like he was performing as much in comedy as you were at, like, around the be and everything. And then so you're like. You have to imagine there's some innate ability he would have to just kind of, like, hold the camera. He's also so fascinating in interviews. Like, he does have such an interesting energy, good energy. But it's the tootsie thing.

[David Sims]

The.

[Griffin Newman]

The tootsie dynamic where Hoffman, like, begged Sidney Pollock to play his agent because he was like, I want to have these scenes be with someone who actually holds power over me. David.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, God. This is life throwing another thing at me.

[Ben Hosley]

Oh, no.

[David Sims]

Did you catch it?

[Griffin Newman]

No, I got hit with it. I got pelted pretty hard. It's gonna leave a bruise.

[David Sims]

How's that to do list?

[Griffin Newman]

It's tough. It's tough. And life keeps throwing more things at me.

[David Sims]

Okay, well, is there maybe something that we could take off your plate? Have someone else help you out with, perhaps a trusted tasker from TaskRabbit?

[Griffin Newman]

David I would love nothing more. My idea, ideal life is to do as little as possible. As much as can be off my plate, the happier I am.

[David Sims]

I have two children. I have logistical responsibilities often of like I need to build a piece of furniture, I need to whatever, you know,

[Griffin Newman]

hearing about this for the first time. But sure, I'll buy into the premise,

[David Sims]

the bit of this ad and I've used TaskRabbit multiple times for it is literally always like, that is the best money I ever spent in my life. You know what I mean? Where you're basically like, it would have been six hours of me building this bookcase and instead like I did whatever the other task I had to do, you know, like sleeping could be sleeping, eating a meal, shopping for food or whatever. But like while that got done and it's like, it's always just so rewarding. I had a Tasker come and build a grill for me when I bought my grill.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, my ears are burning or should I say smoking.

[David Sims]

And that was one of those things where I was, not only was I like, this will be, this will take a long time. I was like looking at all this, you know, masonry, all these like been where I was like, I will mess this up. Like, I just won't do this right.

[Griffin Newman]

Hey David, no need to speak in generalities to me. What kind of bad boy we talk about here, what model you buy?

[David Sims]

It's a Weber grill. I'm not going to tell you the model.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, we can talk about it.

[David Sims]

Off my look, Taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs have handled 1.5 million moves and counting. That's quite impressive. Obviously you know, you guys probably know already but you can search on task driver for Tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, past client reviews, you know exactly who's showing up. You can have confidence that they know what they're doing. So when life happens, your to do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first [e-mail] or on the TaskRabbit app. Using promo code check Taskers book up fast, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That's $15 off your first task. Using promo code check with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit do. We wanted Alan Alda after Hopper gets fired, which more matches obviously what they're going with for Christoph Sherry Lansing who ran Universal at the time, I assume wanted a bigger star. Ed Harris is Paramount. Oh, is it Paramount Yeah, it is Paramount. Yeah. Sorry, Paramount. Ed Harris, it is truly, like, he's like, I, like, got a phone call on a Friday. I started working on a Monday, you

[Griffin Newman]

know, like, he's incredible in this.

[David Sims]

It's obviously, it's an incredible performance.

[Griffin Newman]

One of his best performances.

[David Sims]

It is. He probably should have won the Oscar.

[Griffin Newman]

I was thinking the same thing. Is this the Coburn year?

[David Sims]

It's the. Kevin Spacey is the first. Yes. The Coburn year, which is, you know, honestly, Affliction is a bit of a forgotten movie. Coburn is good in it, obviously. Coburn was a well known. You know, like, it's a bit of a career award, but he's really good in that movie.

[Griffin Newman]

And. And he doesn't make many films after that.

[David Sims]

James Coburn.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

No, he was. He was a elderly. You know, he was. He was on the. On the way out.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm just saying it was like, there wasn't. He could, like, three years later, be another chance to. To give it to him. The other thing.

[David Sims]

I know, but I. I. Look, this is so rude of me to say, because James Cover is a good actor. James Coburn is not the level of actor where I'm like, he had to have an Oscar before he died.

[Griffin Newman]

I agree with you. I also think Ed Harris was in this zone at this point in time where people were like, he'll win.

[David Sims]

He.

[Griffin Newman]

He's gonna win, like, any day now. And then it's like, he hasn't been nominated in over 20 years. Close to 25, but in the 90s.

[David Sims]

And he got four noms total because it's. It's. So. It's Apollo 13 before this, which he also should have won for Truman. Hours, Pollock, then Truman, then Pollock, then the Hours. Yeah, the hours. I. I don't like that performance very much. The others, he's an arguable winner every time, but that's. When I interviewed him, he looked like Kristoff and was so scary.

[Griffin Newman]

He was notoriously one of the scariest men.

[J.D. Amato]

What's the most scared you've been in an interview?

[David Sims]

That one, without a doubt. I was so scared to interview because I've always heard how scary he is.

[Griffin Newman]

Uniformly, everyone says he is, like, the most intense. It's also just like, he's got Ed Harris energy.

[David Sims]

Super serious.

[Griffin Newman]

If you're like a PA and they go like, hey, can you tell Ed we're, like, five minutes away from camera up, they're, like, shivering. Just because you have to walk up to that guy.

[J.D. Amato]

What's your interview foreplay? Like, how What? When someone says I. I just kind

[David Sims]

of like, caress the thigh, you know, and then I just kind of. I'm like, is this okay? And then I sort of start to know. You said foreplay. I don't know. I just chit chat and like, Ed Harris was not interested in chit chatting with me, but he wasn't rude. He was fine. Luckily, Aaron Sorkin was also there who likes to talk. Gap, gap, gap, gap, gap. But, like, all of his answers were interesting and he was super chill. He just looked like Kristoff.

[J.D. Amato]

Do you write down he had, like, a little hat before you do an interview?

[David Sims]

No, I write down questions that I can refer to if I get stuck.

[J.D. Amato]

Because I was going to say sometimes if you get scared, you just like, want a piece of paper. You're like, okay, here's the question.

[David Sims]

Yes, but I find that. So I'm. Yeah, like, that makes people, like, uncomfortable.

[J.D. Amato]

Jump out the window.

[Griffin Newman]

Feel like that would make Ed Harris bite your head off, possibly. What were you interviewing him for, Sorkin?

[David Sims]

To kill Mockingbird for a job. I was interviewing them to work at my Dunkin Donuts.

[J.D. Amato]

That's the thing that people don't know about, David. He does have a Dunkin Donuts.

[David Sims]

I do have a Dunkin Donuts.

[Griffin Newman]

He won.

[David Sims]

It was for. Harris was taking over from Jeff Daniels into Killer Mockingbird. And they pitched me on, like, can you interview Sorkin and Harris about, like, the process of him playing Atticus? And I was like, the Mockingbird? I was like, yeah, bring out the Mockingbird. I was like, honestly, I just want to interview them. So sure. It did rock because we were at the theater, which is one of the greatest, one of the biggest theaters on Broadway, and it was empty. And Sorkin comes out first, and then he's like, check this out. And we walk over. I've said this before on the podcast, I think, to the little step, because people come in through the audience in that play and in many plays, the tiny little step that gets you from the audience to the stage, that's like half your foot max. And he was just like, how do they not fucking fall on this thing? And then, like, we get up on the stage and he's walking around and he was just so energetic and, like, excited about theater, which was cool. And he had just finished shooting Chicago 7.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, sure.

[David Sims]

And so he was talking to Ed Harris about that a lot because it was like he was coming back because he's not on, you know, the play was running. Harris was the one who was like, getting into and he played Atticus Finch like a terrifying motherfucker. It was a weird performance. It wasn't bad, but it was definitely not like Gregory Peck energy. Anyway, I would give Harris best supporting actor for Apollo 13, which is one of my favorite screen performances of all time.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, the problem is.

[David Sims]

But he's incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

It's what you're saying of. He would have been a good win in any of those four years, probably. And he was in borderline auto nomination territory where it's like, we're going to have so many chances to give it to him. And there kept being some kind of emotional choice above him. And now I, I. Not that he's taken for granted, but I think people like almost autocorrect and assume he won an Oscar 20 years ago. The weird Coburn stat is that he had like debilitating arthritis and basically disappeared for all of the 80s and then found some miracle cure and comes back in the 90s. And there was a big emotional, kind of like, Coburn's back. Now he's like a steady elder statesman, supporting hand. Now he's given this like, dramatic showcase role. But he, I mean, Coburn won zero precursors. Ed Harris was not even nominated for the sag. Like, it was a weird supporting actor field.

[David Sims]

I should dig in. I should dig in. But he did lose, and he shouldn't have lost. I think it should have been him or Billy Bob, but Billy Bob had just won an Oscar. But Billy Bob's obviously amazing in A Simple Plan, which is that year as well. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what, I'm sorry. Golden Globes gave it to Ed Harris. SAG gave it to Robert Duvall for a Civil Action.

[David Sims]

Great performance.

[Griffin Newman]

And then the Academy gives it to James Coburn.

[David Sims]

Laura Linney, he'd seen, we had seen her in Primal Fear, which she's very good in. And she did an incredible audition. Obviously having Laura Linney in this role is just like having like, like fucking Tim Duncan on the, like 99 spurs or whatever, where you're just like, well, we just got her early.

[Griffin Newman]

Like being not like seeing this movie as a nine year old. The amount of actors I'm exposed to for the first time where I'm just like, well, these are people who aren't in movies for children. I'm seeing Laura Linney and Paul Giamatti and Holland Taylor and Noah Emmerich, like all these fucking heavyweights and character actor greats who I love, who I just still kind of associate with. Laura Linney. Yeah, of course, the wife from the Truman Show.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, I was watching that behind the scenes featurette thing, and one of the things I think is fascinating that comes through in the performance, but until you hear her talk about it, I did not zero in on, is that Peter Weir wrote for Kristoff an entire sort of, like, backstory and history of Kristoff. And then he had the actors for themselves come up with their own backstories. And her backstory was that her. The actress that she was portraying that, you know, was cast to be on the Truman show was like a. Like a. I can tell you I

[David Sims]

have it here, but you want it. Failed child actress, someone who always wanted to play Annie and never got to play Annie, had become like, an Oprah. S kind of shrewd businesswoman who is, like, really behind the product placement stuff.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. So she's who. She said, like, in her mind, in between when she was on the show, she'd be at, like, a conference room working with people to, like, deal, figure out product placement and all this stuff. She was like a business person.

[Griffin Newman]

She basically, like, secures her position as you are the permanent Truman wife through selling her value to the show in all these other ways and being, like, so locked in on the whole business model in a way.

[J.D. Amato]

Or like, the flip where she uses that role to then become a huge, like, person, you know, a product spokesperson.

[David Sims]

I mean, she just plays it like a living animatronic. It's so good.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And it's just so unreal.

[Griffin Newman]

I also love that the movie opens with, like, the opening credits to the Truman show. The show rather than the movie. And we're watching these address, direct address statements. And you're, like, seeing how kind of pretentious she is about the art of what she's accomplishing. And you're like, there's this innate sadness to you being like, it's the greatest role of all time. And being like, you don't have a life. What are you talking about? You're like, in a loveless marriage, and

[J.D. Amato]

she kind of doesn't respect or even really like Truman.

[David Sims]

No, she knows. She knows. He. She. He knows she hates him. Right.

[J.D. Amato]

Which is to that scene that we were talking about that's so disconcerting is it's the first time you see her mask drop where she's like, she's not concerned about him. She's concerned about herself, first and foremost and this whole thing. And that's why she's. She's willing.

[David Sims]

You would tell him he was on a TV show.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes, exactly.

[David Sims]

Like, it's right away.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not to. Not to justify the action, but part of what drives him is that he's increasingly like, there is no universe. And what is happening isn't also that you're not also a party to what

[David Sims]

you have to be a part of it. Which makes it even scarier. I mean, the thing that we never actually see him confront totally is that Noah Emmerich is part of it, which is the most devastating because he has this feature. He's like, I've been your best friend since we were seven years old.

[J.D. Amato]

And that was.

[David Sims]

And it is the most chilling thing.

[J.D. Amato]

And that was his character story. He was like a child actor.

[David Sims]

Right.

[J.D. Amato]

Who then got cast in this role. And because they kept extending it, he kept becoming his best friend. Like, and it's actually more villainous in a way that he is unwilling to drop that and, in fact, weaponized it against Truman at some point. Like, at least with Laura Linney, she immediately. The moment things get weird, she's like, I'm out. I'm done. This unprofessional. I would work like this.

[David Sims]

I would. I would say things got weird before, such as when she married him and lives with him every day.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

But I.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[David Sims]

It's so, so crazy and clearly is like, if I'm going to get pregnant, you better fudge.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, and that's what she says in the thing is, she's like. She's like, in my mind, every time I sleep with him, I get a pay. A pay bomb. Right.

[Ben Hosley]

The way you're describing her character, I just wanted to say, is sort of like an influencer.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Like in the. In the 90s shopping channel kind of way.

[J.D. Amato]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Yeah, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

But I also think the no Emmerich character, what's fascinating is that, like, he's a little tragic and that it does feel like these lines are genuinely blurred for him. Whereas she's like, this is a role I'm playing and I'll cross my fingers when we kiss at the altar. I think Noah Emmerich would be like, Truman, of course, is my best friend.

[David Sims]

Because he is.

[J.D. Amato]

And because it seems like in the world of this film, he was with Truman since they were like, correct toddlers, whereas she was cast into the role when they were like, the scene where

[Griffin Newman]

she's trying so hard to be like, how do I pop here? You know, like the high school. The marching band.

[J.D. Amato]

Right.

[David Sims]

Maybe it's late high school, but, like, the idea is Natasha McElhone is an extra who falls in love with him. But of course, anyone who actually Liked him again would be like, well, I have to take care of you. And the first thing we're going to do is get you off of the Truman Show.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. Which is.

[David Sims]

So they have to find someone who's, you know, at cross purposes with him.

[J.D. Amato]

Which is why this movie is so good, is because we're able to have this discussion within the bounds of its reality. And for a lot of movies, the moment you start discussing it like this, it falls apart because you're like, well, you get what it takes. Some leaps of logic.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

It's. It's so fun because you can talk about it with such depth.

[David Sims]

I think you have to make leaps of logic on. Of course, this would not be. You could not.

[J.D. Amato]

Wouldn't be financially viable.

[David Sims]

Right. But, like, I think that's a leap of logic you can make. And it's partly satirical anyway. The whole idea of, like, you can see it from space or, you know, like. And what I love the most about the Truman show is that the audience watches and loves it, but is rooting for him to escape it at the end. Because that is what, like, watching sports is, or watching almost any reality TV is where you're like, this is great. And it entertains me. And then when, like, the scales start to fall off and people are like,

[J.D. Amato]

I don't like this.

[David Sims]

People are like, I love that you're saying that. Like, Alyssa Liu just now winning the Olympic medal, which I have watched her skate many times and cried. I don't know what's going on with me where she's like, I love that I did that. And it was great, but this world sucks. And I quit it because it was so horrible. And I wasn't allowed to drink water because of water weight. And people are like, we love that you're doing that. We also love watching you skate. I don't know how to reconcile those two things. I love Truman. I love watching the only Truman I want him to overthrow, though, a little.

[Griffin Newman]

Like this last Olympic run basically had the Truman walking through the door moment. What if I do it my way?

[David Sims]

I'll try to do it my way. I would like to believe that's exactly what she did. It seems like it is.

[J.D. Amato]

But I think that's the aspirational beauty of the Truman show, right? Is that it represents this thing that even within the. Even within the fictional construct of what the show represents, within the fictional world that it exists is this idea that we all live in this life. That a part. Part of what we seek in media sometimes is the idea that maybe we're going to be able to overcome whatever our. Whatever the boxes that we are put into. And so like we just keep trying to find these boxes and see people overcome them in some way. And so even if you find escapism in the comfort of Truman, the fact that he's trying to escape becomes something that you're like, well, that's also engaging to me because I also want or hope or believe that my life is larger than whatever this. The. My version of a town square is.

[Griffin Newman]

It is. It is part of the like develop backstory thing. But I also. People have said it was part of the script at one point, like it was developed into the film proper. But the Noah Emrick character, his sort of established backstories, that this guy has had a. Years long drinking problem. The actor, largely because of the guilt of how he is being used to contain Truman and that like part of his job being like, I have to fill vending machines around the world was that he'd have to like be justified to disappear for rehab trips and things like that.

[David Sims]

There's the.

[Griffin Newman]

But also that there's this married thing that he's used as a mechanism to sell beer for the show, of course. So that there's kind of like the running segment of, well, when Truman needs like a trusty ear, of course Lewis is going to show up with a six pack which then becomes like a part of their behavioral mechanism where he's over drinking to deal with the guilt over the advice he gives Truman that is actually Kristoff in an earpiece. So then he needs to get like rehab off of the show and then continue selling beer to an audience.

[J.D. Amato]

And this is what I think is great about Peter Weir, right? Is there's some people that would put all of that into the movie. And Weir allows a lot of this stuff and I'm. This is. Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

To just be spoken or thought about. I mean like, there's the line that I love like parsing this movie because I've seen it so, so so many times where he talks about like, remember when I got pneumonia? And Truman's like, yeah, you were out of school for a month. And they're laughing about it and you don't notice it the first. But like, then you're like, what do you mean he was out of school for a month? And you're like, oh, that was for some extra reality reason. Right. And it's just shit like that. But then when I was. So when I first saw this movie, when the rain falls on Truman in A column before it kicks off. Right. One of his many moments of reality is not right. Obviously, the first one is the light falling from the ceiling.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Which happens less than three minutes into the movie.

[J.D. Amato]

Right away, it is a story. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Big pin.

[David Sims]

Pin. So many pins. I immediately start being like, well, why can't they just raise Truman to think that rain falls in a column? And why can't they train him to think that? Like, yeah, there's lights in the sky that might fall down or whatever? Like, why can't they just. And then, like, as I grow older, I'm like, right. Because then we wouldn't like the show. The show needs to reflect reality because

[J.D. Amato]

it's not for Truman. None of this was for Truman. Right. This was all for everyone else.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Because, like, if he was just taught in school, like, well, rainfalls in a column and you can't get on boats, like, and you can't leave your town, people would just, like, you know, whatever. Like, it just would break the way that people experience him.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, it's also like our relationship to this movie, which is like the buy in the suspension of disbelief. Right. Like, what are the questions you need to answer, the things you need to explain to get people to accept the rules of your universe? And this is such an excellent example of. It gives you a satisfying answer for just what you need to be able to engage with the story. And it's really smart about when it does not like info dumps, but, like, how it distributes the information so you don't have to deal with 30 minutes of explanation. You don't have to deal with the last 30 minutes is just uncovering everything. But also the answers it gives are so satisfying and are so often like, show, don't tell, that you start to be able to just infer, you can fill in the blanks. And more than anything, you can tell that there are internal answers that they don't feel the need to communicate to you.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, like, one thing that I was watching it the second time last night is I was like, oh, how much of the cameras are justified? Right. How much is. How much is an omniscient camera that is the. The movie's movie? And how much is it just justified within the Truman Show? Yeah, it's mostly all in the world

[Griffin Newman]

of the Truman Show, I think, other than when it goes to, like, you know, Kristoff and. And people watching on TV and whatever. In past times, I'd heard Weir say that was a big thing that he, like, tried to design the coverage of where the Cameras would be. And previous times I've watched this movie, I'm like, well, there are the obvious shots where clearly, that's a weird angle. That's a hidden camera. You see the obstruction of a leaf in front of it or whatever. Now, watching it this time, I'm like, I think basically every single setup within the bubble of The Truman Show, 100%, is a very specifically justified camera angle, even down to when it feels like the movie is doing more traditional coverage, that is, coverage in what would be the main locations of his life in the setups where they would have to invest the time and energy and technology to get a really high quality, unobstructed two shot.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, they show the trick off in one of the first interactions when the neighbor comes up and talks to him is that they have a tracking shot that's sort of this handheld tracking shot that walks up to Truman as he's getting into his car. And in my brain, I'm like, well, of course they wouldn't have tracking shots. And then they obviously cut to the reverse, and you see him holding up a trash can with clearly a big lens that's very obvious on it to sort of. Of teach the audience, hey, these are always going to be justified. And then throughout this, like, I remember there was the. The scene where he's running through the hospital, and I was kind of like. I was like, all right, well, here's one place where they're kind of stretching the credulity of that because he's running and there's a camera following him. And then they cut to a lady, a nurse, running behind him. And you're like, right, There's. They're. They're.

[David Sims]

And there's cameras in all their clothes, essentially.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. And you can tell they just took the time for every shot to go. Even if they go, we want this coverage. Okay, but how would we justify that with this? And then they. They put it in there in some way, which is such great.

[Griffin Newman]

When he's in his home, it can be as polished as, like, friends. Because they've refined that.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And when he gets into wilder environments, they're improvising. You know, they're like, manipulating things. But you start to see the recurring design element of what are clearly the hidden cameras, which are, like these black domes which are in the. Like, the lining of the buildings, the houses on the street, the signposts. You know, they're like, all over everything.

[J.D. Amato]

Someone's ring. There's one moment where it's like, how

[David Sims]

are they getting the sound?

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone's mic'd as well.

[J.D. Amato]

It's all adr.

[David Sims]

That's so true.

[Griffin Newman]

The Truman show airs at a five minute delay and it's like, oh, hi, I'm Truman.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, they probably just have booms hidden all over.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, you can just do directional mics far away, pointing, you know, everywhere.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah. So you just get total coverage.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Seaside, Florida is this creepy, crazy town where they filmed it, obviously, which is a town that was basically built in the 1980s to look like a quote, neo traditional community. It produced Matt Gaetz, who lived in the house that Truman lives in, which I love, which makes you happy.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, you endorsing about him?

[J.D. Amato]

Well, I think it's actually a very interesting cultural. I don't even know how to, how to describe it. Go off the fact that that is the childhood home of a famous, infamous Republican politician.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

A lot of different words you could say here.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. And I'm, I'm, you know, I, I. Exactly. So I think it's actually very interesting because the whole point of the Truman show is that it's this enclosed universe that is controlled to make the people in it believe, or at least one person in it believe, that the world exists in a very specific way. And obviously we know that, you know, there's a certain positive aspiration of the idea of someone like Truman going out into the real world and now he's going to get to see what real life is like. But that's actually going to be a very pretty traumatic process.

[David Sims]

I think he's going to be okay. Which I've, I've, I've thought about this a lot over the years because Natasha Echo is going to get him like, and because I used to think like, oh, he's so fucked. What? He's going to walk out immediately. Some agent will approach him, some, you know, like. And then I remember, like, no, I forget that like we're being shown. Natasha's going to get him and she knows him and she knows what's going to happen. She knows the real world and she knows his world and she's going to be the bridge that will, I think make him.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, but it's going to be like, yes, I hear.

[J.D. Amato]

All that aside, it'll be sure.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I'm just saying, like, it's a very fundamental thing to me in the movie that we're. That their journeys are intercutting.

[J.D. Amato]

That all that aside, I, I think there are strings that you could tie between someone growing up, an environment like Seaside Florida that is Truman show ask that then holds beliefs that are very extreme and maybe don't interact with the full diversity of life as it unfolds in the rest of the country.

[Griffin Newman]

Disconnected from most people's reality a little bit.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[David Sims]

They wanted a Norman Rockwell heightened reality.

[J.D. Amato]

Right.

[David Sims]

Like, I mean, that's what they were.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. And I guess my point is, like, of course, that's where someone like that came from. Right. Like, of course that's. That's. That's one of the issues that we have. Right. Is that you can grow up in these bubbles where you see the world in a very specific point of view. And then when you get into the real world. And that's different. Right. And then this thing that has been constructed to make you believe that this is the. The utopian, idyllic life. Yeah. There's. There's going to be people who react to that different ways. And some of them, it is through.

[David Sims]

You know, I think Magic Gates is. He's doing good. Seems really balanced to me.

[J.D. Amato]

All right, well, that's David Sims of the Atlantic.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm gonna say that. I don't endorse him.

[David Sims]

The funniest thing about Matt Gates to me is that Trump, like, you know, has violated every norm in existence and appointed psychopaths. And, like, he was like, what about Matt Gates? Everyone was like, buddy. And he was like, all right, all right. Not Matt Gates.

[Griffin Newman]

That's too far.

[David Sims]

Like the old one.

[J.D. Amato]

I don't know. There's some. There's something. There's something interesting about the fact that that's the home. That's, like, I think it's interesting.

[David Sims]

I think we should move on.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, I agree.

[Griffin Newman]

Can I say. Can I just say the thread of, like, I know this is jumping to the end of the movie, but, like, is he going to be okay? I was thinking about Jury duty while watching this, which we were talking about right before recording. Right. And how they have a second season coming out, and it's one of those, like, how could they possibly pull that off a second time? But everyone who worked on that show talked about that they, like, shot it two times before it was worked. Like, I think one time incomplete, one time maybe borderline complete, where they, like, picked the wrong person. I think one time the person figured out, and the other time they were just like, this is not compelling television. And then they found someone who was not only compelling, but, like, kept kind of making the moral, humane choice in these insane circumstances. And then they were like, oh, the show's actually more interesting if the guy is, like, passing these morality tests rather than falling into the chaos of the situation, and they're, like, rewriting it in time in a Truman show way to try to, like, guide him towards, like, presenting him as, like, a moral beacon of, like, you won this show by being unwavering in your humanity. And then he has talked about when the show ended. He, like, could not readjust to reality for, like, a year. And it's not like that was all consuming in the same kind of way. And he knew he was on camera. He thought it was just a documentary series. And by the time the show premiered, he had worked through this and time had passed, but was like, I for, like, the next couple of months kept thinking it was still going on.

[J.D. Amato]

Right. That was like. That was like three weeks of this guy's life.

[Griffin Newman]

Totally that. Even when that final episode is like, congratulations, you're a good human. This was a TV show. It's a comedy. Go on. He's, like, back to spending time with his parents, and he's like, but are my parents in on this? Were they in on this? How far did this reach? Would that be an interesting, like, finale for the show? Or is that the midpoint and I'm still in it? That, you know, to the Truman point, it's like, you're right that he kind of is set up in the best way he could to transition out of this, but, God, is there going to be damage on him?

[David Sims]

Of course. I'm not saying. I'm saying the point I was making was not actually. I don't think you can actually.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm fighting you on it. I just think about that guy.

[David Sims]

I want to say that Peter Weir took the commercials, wanted the movie to look like commercials, because he's like, everything needs to be really brightly lit. Right. Because, again, the way the world would function.

[Griffin Newman]

How do you. Light exteriors, like, their interiors.

[David Sims]

He had one crazy idea that he wanted a video camera installed in every theater. The film was going to be seen, and when the movie ended, he was going to switch. Switch the feed to the people being filmed.

[J.D. Amato]

Kind of a cool idea.

[Griffin Newman]

There was a live interactive.

[J.D. Amato]

Love that idea.

[Griffin Newman]

Adaptive. But I think they were just like, this is impossible.

[David Sims]

Ridiculous. But it would be so cool.

[Griffin Newman]

I like that, like, 30 years later, Coppola could barely pull off a guy stands in front of a screen at every.

[David Sims]

Like, what do you believe art is? Or whatever that question is?

[J.D. Amato]

Well, that. It happened to me twice. Once I was watching. I said a screening of Gremlins 2, and it was like that they actually. In the film, they set the movie. Yeah, they set the Movie on Fire. And then.

[Griffin Newman]

That is so crazy. The same thing happened to me when I saw Gremlins.

[J.D. Amato]

When it happened a second time when I was watching the Muppet Movie. Yeah, and has anyone done that recently?

[Griffin Newman]

Do you know what's even crazier is Gremlins too. I see it. The Gremlins got into the projection booth, they ripped through the film.

[J.D. Amato]

You wouldn't believe what happened in mine. Who fixed it?

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I don't, I don't want to one up you here. I don't want to big dog you, but my screening was the Hulkster.

[David Sims]

No. No way. Now wait a second, guys. I have a question for you to get you off of this. If we do Dante, will you want to do Gremlins too?

[J.D. Amato]

Oh, I mean.

[David Sims]

Or is there a different Dante? Because Dante does feel.

[J.D. Amato]

J.D. dante. I would want to do the Explorers.

[Griffin Newman]

Hell yeah.

[David Sims]

There you go.

[J.D. Amato]

That was. That was great.

[David Sims]

That'll give that up a boost.

[J.D. Amato]

That was a movie that I watched constantly growing up and that was like never seen. You've never seen it?

[David Sims]

Oh, I, I have.

[J.D. Amato]

I don't mean that. And I'm just saying that's. I mean it's.

[David Sims]

I have seen a lot of those 80s kid movies because like I was too young for them and then I didn't have the like sort of whatever cable TV American life that I guess like kept the Goonies and its many.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, that would, that was video store for me. Right, that we would rent the Explorers Never ending story Labyrinth. Right, Like Goonies like on loop and

[David Sims]

like I've seen those four movies a grand total of. Of three times. You know what I mean?

[J.D. Amato]

Like you haven't seen Explorers ever?

[David Sims]

No, that's what I'm saying.

[Griffin Newman]

I've seen the others once a left handed one. The thing with Explorers, that's interesting very quickly, David, is it basically is like a Snowman Harry Holy thing where they just didn't let him finish the movie. And so Explorers had to be kind of like stitched together. He never got to shoot everything that was written.

[J.D. Amato]

Wait, what's the snowman thing?

[David Sims]

The movie the snowman like ran out of.

[Griffin Newman]

We gave you all the clues.

[J.D. Amato]

Oh, that one. I thought you're talking about the animated short film.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, I was like, I was like. I was like, yeah, that one.

[J.D. Amato]

Because that one feels finished.

[David Sims]

That one's pretty finished. It's pretty short too. You know, Snowman.

[J.D. Amato]

I will say no joke creatively in my life. I. One of my. The references I've referenced the most is the. The 32nd live action. Opening to the Snowman. Because it taps into a feeling that is so specific that I have. It has been a part of several things. I'm like, we want that feeling.

[David Sims]

You know who's big for me was Corduroy, the. The TV version of Cor with the live action one. Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It was really good.

[J.D. Amato]

I don't know.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Because it's also an animated quarter.

[David Sims]

No. That I don't see that.

[J.D. Amato]

I don't think I know what Corduroy is.

[David Sims]

Corduroy said children's book about a little bear in a toy store.

[Griffin Newman]

Tim Story was announced to do a big budget.

[David Sims]

No.

[J.D. Amato]

He should.

[David Sims]

Oh, that sounds fun. It sounds like it'd be really calm and relaxing.

[Griffin Newman]

I know. We got to get back to trimming.

[David Sims]

We do.

[Griffin Newman]

Can I just say craziest thing? So I see Gremlins 2 in a theater.

[David Sims]

Okay. So the trim.

[Griffin Newman]

And I'm like, well, that was fun. That was a fun experience. I'm lucky that I got to see this crazy screen, but I'd love to see what happened in the missing scenes when they bit through the film. So I rented it on vhs and.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. And you got to see it unbroken all the way through J.D.

[Griffin Newman]

the craziest thing happened on the VHS.

[J.D. Amato]

What's that?

[Griffin Newman]

And this is just my tape. My player. Gremlins, too. The Gremlins, like, broke into the tv and it's.

[J.D. Amato]

Did it stay broken?

[Griffin Newman]

It was, like, staticky. And then they were, like. In other movies, they, like, changed the channels to, like, western films and stuff. And then the movie just, like, went back.

[David Sims]

Can't do that bit on Gremlins 2 now. Crazy.

[Griffin Newman]

We'll do it again. Trust me. Five times.

[J.D. Amato]

This is a show that's never done a bit twice.

[Griffin Newman]

David is seriously tightly hugging his baby Joey.

[David Sims]

Joey.

[J.D. Amato]

Who is that?

[David Sims]

He's from Superman.

[Griffin Newman]

You see the new Superman movie.

[J.D. Amato]

I did not.

[Griffin Newman]

David loves baby Joey.

[J.D. Amato]

I love him. Tug, as you're holding him in a

[David Sims]

way that shows that the Truman Show. I'm going to unpin one of your big pins.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Begins almost immediately with the light falling

[J.D. Amato]

from the sky, which I've been on this show before, ranting about story structure. And what I love about the Truman show is that I think there's a version of this movie where you do this. The like, all right, let's spend 10 minutes with seeing Truman's life. And it's like, right.

[David Sims]

How quickly do you start to break it? And how quickly do you. You know, unattached from his reality, all that stuff.

[J.D. Amato]

And I. What I Love about the arc of this movie is that that happens within whatever one minute of the movie beginning is that immediately it starts falling apart and you're not. We don't have to live in the truman world for 10 minutes before he starts to notice.

[David Sims]

It's like, it's risky because, like, yeah, you do have that fear of, like, will audiences accept this reality as we begin to break it?

[J.D. Amato]

Right.

[David Sims]

Like. But I think you do. I think they do such a good job explaining how everything works.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. And then the movie quickly runs for an hour.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

And then we take a 10 minute break to have an interview with Kristoff.

[David Sims]

It's a good solid time. Right before we finally are like, okay, all right.

[J.D. Amato]

It's.

[Griffin Newman]

The movie has. Let's make it. They saved the day. And then suddenly it's like, we're actually gonna unpack this now. But they've given you so much information already up until that point that it's just hard data points you need. And it works because it's still dramatized because you're learning about the guy who made the thing.

[J.D. Amato]

You don't see Kristoff until an hour

[Griffin Newman]

into the opening shot.

[J.D. Amato]

Opening shot.

[Griffin Newman]

And then not until an hour and

[J.D. Amato]

then not until an hour.

[Griffin Newman]

He's in less than 10 minutes.

[David Sims]

He's the. I think it's one reason he didn't

[J.D. Amato]

win the Oscar because there would be a version of this movie.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

Where you keep cutting back to him and you're seeing him.

[David Sims]

Well, the other thing that interests.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, of course.

[David Sims]

That it's about him. But then the movie's more about him,

[J.D. Amato]

obviously, which is why he runs. Brilliant. Because that. That's what the movie isn't about him.

[David Sims]

Right.

[J.D. Amato]

Kristoff thinks it's about him.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[J.D. Amato]

But it's not.

[David Sims]

Extent.

[Griffin Newman]

But that's the moment when it finally slows down. David is very annoying.

[David Sims]

I'm just trying to make a point I don't want to forget.

[Griffin Newman]

Please make it. Please make it.

[David Sims]

When they have sex, you cut to flat top from Brooklyn.

[J.D. Amato]

Nine.

[David Sims]

Nine. And the other guy.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Where he explains, like. But you never see anything.

[Griffin Newman]

They point the camera, the wind blows the curtain.

[David Sims]

It's a very funny moment. That's one of the very few moments that they cut to the audience before the reality breaks. And then we're cutting to them all.

[J.D. Amato]

And it's the first time they don't.

[David Sims]

It's the first time and they kind of don't do it again for like a long while.

[Griffin Newman]

Just forgetting. They show the bar with Olan Jones because When they get.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, they show. Yeah, but that's later. That's later.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. This is the first one.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, that's the first. But it's very brief. They add more people post reveal, of course, Napoleon and such.

[David Sims]

They do, but they do it slowly. But they do do it before the Kristoff moment, which is the full kind of like, okay, pause.

[J.D. Amato]

And what I think is really bold about that cutaway. Right. Is it's not like I don't believe I'm. Maybe I'm going to say this and I'm wrong, but as I remember it, it's just a hard cut right to those people going, now you never really see anything. It is. It's like you don't cut to the tv.

[David Sims]

You never see the tv.

[J.D. Amato]

You just know that the audience is going to pick up. They're going to be jarred for a second to be like, what am I watching? Oh, these are people watching the show.

[David Sims]

And it's just interesting. And maybe it was a studio note of like, can we please, like just a tiny, tiny, tiny bits of context, please? Like, it's too overwhelming.

[J.D. Amato]

But maybe not.

[David Sims]

Maybe they just editing wise were like, no, no, no, it belongs there. Like, we need it a little bit.

[Griffin Newman]

It feels to me like you need to ease the audience into that as a language that's going to exist. Because also at that point, the audience is starting to wonder, how do people watch this? Like, what is their relationship to this? That becomes as pressing a question as the reality of how the show is made is like, so are they watching it like it's sports? Are they watching it like it's a soap opera? You know, to me, you would just

[David Sims]

have it on right, like that. Like, obviously, maybe sometimes you do lock in with the Truman Show. And I have questions of like, did they do like a highlight reel at any.

[J.D. Amato]

Like, during prime time?

[David Sims]

I think it's streaming.

[J.D. Amato]

So do I think it's what we

[David Sims]

sort of now have. But then they do the flashback.

[J.D. Amato]

So what I'm gonna.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a channel with flashbacks. Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

So this is. I'm gonna unpin. One of the other big things is that I obviously one of my. I say obviously, Griffin. Probably I'm obsessed with the early 2000s era of reality TV and what turned into it. And especially the big. The big swings that turned into disasters in a lot of ways. And what's so interesting is that the state of reality TV now versus what it was in 2003, I think, because there's this sort of like boiling a frog element to it. Like you think that it's like always been like this, but if you go back and you watch season one of the Real World or Survivor, you're like, oh my gosh, it feels like a documentary. And back then it was people was like, oh, this is a spectacle.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, that's even like 20 years past an American Family, which was presented as a similarly high minded PBS thing. And people got into like debates over whether it was exploitative or ethical. And then by the time the Real World premieres, it's like, well, that was an interesting artistic experiment, much like 7up and the real World is crass and exploitative.

[J.D. Amato]

And so there was all these different folds of reality television, which I, I'm fascinated with because I think they're these weird cultural mirrors in a lot of strange ways. But some of them that are interesting is obviously like Big Brother did played around with the streaming aspect of stuff. I'm not a Big Brother guy. A friend of the show, Zach Cherry is a huge Big Brother, guys, and has tried to get me into it.

[David Sims]

It's the only reality TV show I ever watched. First season of UK Big Brother, well,

[J.D. Amato]

I tried to start watching season one and then Zach got mad at me. He's like, don't watch season one. And so it was a whole thing. But one of my favorite things that then in turn I got Zach into was Utopia. So the Truman show as it exists. Right. Is this, this premise that, okay, there's this show that's on 24 hours a day. I think they would do it like they did at Utopia or some other shows. I think Big Brother does a time where you could tune in and watch some of the webcams.

[David Sims]

The way Big Brother worked was every day there was a digest, but there was yes, you could tune to E4 and watch the live stream, which was incredibly boring.

[Griffin Newman]

And in the States, it was similarly a website where with some censoring, there was more raw feed. But you were getting the, the edited.

[David Sims]

It was always so boring. Yeah, because like it's just people.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, so that's the thing is that I think is interesting is that in the fictional reality of the Truman show, right. This is something people are engaged with. In reality, what transpired is that anyone that tried to do anything like this, it ended up not working in a lot of ways. And that's why I think the closest thing is 7Up because they really, you know, that that was a 7Up. It's a different thing.

[Griffin Newman]

And 7Up is owning that it's a documentary.

[J.D. Amato]

And the Thing that's interesting about reality TV is just like our discussion about the, The. The. The Truman show of being like, oh, it. It has to be this certain way people put their fingerprints on it too much. Right.

[David Sims]

Well, they all know they're doing it.

[J.D. Amato]

They all know they're doing it. But then also the. The construct of it is always there's interference. So, so Utopia. Because, Ben, I saw you looking quizzically at Utopia. Utopia was at the time, it was the highest budget, one of the highest budgeted reality programs ever made that Fox was putting out. I was obsessed with as well. I was. I was. Me and Emily were two of the five viewers.

[David Sims]

Show, I think. Yes, yes. Which is so often true. Big Brother was also based, like the Dutch would start with these crazy concepts.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes, that happens a lot. And so the. One of the. The premise of Utopia was we're gonna take a plot of land and we're gonna put people there and we're gonna give them basically, like, none of the major things that they have that come from the public constructs. Water, gas, electricity, food. And they're going to have to form their own utopia society and solve these problems, and they can build their own internal government and their own way to make decisions and all this stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[J.D. Amato]

The idea is cool.

[Griffin Newman]

You see.

[J.D. Amato]

You see the vision of it. But then this was a Fox product at a time when the sort of. That Fox reality programming had to be. It had to be about conflict, sex and drama and all of this stuff. And so, number one, they ended up casting people who were diametrically opposed. Right. It would be like, we're going to form a utopia society. And here's a conservative preacher and a woman who is a polyamorous stripper. And here's a racist guy. And here, you know, I am a racist guy. I mean, but it's like that was 100%, of course.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

And so, of course, the show is just replete with people at each other's throats arguing, and no one can really figure things out. But the premise of it is they spent all this money making this space, and it was. It was just outside of Los Angeles and they had cameras everywhere. And like Truman show, the idea was that you could log in online, watch Utopia 24 hours a day, and sort of see what they're up to. And then twice a week they'd do these digest episodes where they told you what. What big things?

[David Sims]

What did they accomplish?

[J.D. Amato]

What did they accomplish?

[Griffin Newman]

They find the compelling dramatic strains within all the footage.

[J.D. Amato]

So right off the bat, people aren't that interested because it just feels like regular sort of reality shock. That that's my editorializing of it is that it's just the same people arguing and you know.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I think it came happening.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. And then there's people that are online watching it 24 hours a day. And then there's a lot of people that are just like waiting for the women to like take baths and like watch them naked on. It's like that, it's that, it's. It's that level of polarization of like there's the, the level of interest in this is not Truman Show.

[David Sims]

I was Bath Hunter 1, 2, 3 on those boards.

[J.D. Amato]

But that's like. Yeah, that if you try to.

[David Sims]

When will they take baths?

[J.D. Amato]

Here's the thing, David.

[Ben Hosley]

Bath Hunter is so funny.

[David Sims]

It's just like such a hilariously kind of old fashioned like, like Horizon and America's like was like, I like to watch a woman take a bath.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like Mr. Skin, but it's just about dirty bath water.

[J.D. Amato]

What was funny?

[Griffin Newman]

Tub report.

[J.D. Amato]

The other day I met someone and I was, I was describing this show to them and I was describing David and like they describing blank check to them. Well, yeah. And they weren't piecing it together. I was like David Sims atlant. Like then they're like, oh, Bath Hunter. And I was like, oh, I didn't. Yeah, yeah, you know him best as bathroom.

[David Sims]

Right, right. My earlier Internet career picturing I'm a buff hunter.

[Griffin Newman]

David dressed up like Dog the Bounty Hunter with a bunch of bath paraphernalia

[J.D. Amato]

with Night Night Night Night vision goggles. So anyways, the show, the show is, is not succeeding.

[Griffin Newman]

Make Bath Hunter.

[David Sims]

It lasted for like 13 episodes.

[J.D. Amato]

It lasted for like 13 episodes. What's funny is that if you try to find the episodes online, what comes up up is people being like, hey, does anyone have the footage of them taking baths? And it's like David replying, being like, yeah mate, I got you

[Griffin Newman]

really fast. Like even if it's not like a

[David Sims]

design, you want to see the racist guy. I got a lot of him. He was really taking a lot of baths.

[J.D. Amato]

It's a lot of David dropping the address to the blank check studio being like, meet me here. Bring a hard drive.

[David Sims]

Bring bath.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, bring bath. Bring hard. Bring water, bring soap, bring hard drive.

[Griffin Newman]

Many terabytes. You can't upload it. It has to be transferred.

[J.D. Amato]

No, exactly. And it's right now in the studio. It's hot because These are on 24 hours a day running. It's like an AI processing.

[David Sims]

I'm going to have to ask you to finish this tangent just, just so we can discuss other things in the Truman Show.

[J.D. Amato]

So Utopia ends up starting to fall apart. One of the, the. One of the things that I think's fascinating about Utopia is that the people on the show were told this is going to be a Truman show esque thing that is going to sweep the nation. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right.

[J.D. Amato]

So throughout the show, they keep going, guys, the world is watching us.

[David Sims]

It's crazy how famous we are right now.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, they keep going. We have to figure this out. The world is watching.

[David Sims]

Right.

[J.D. Amato]

And what they didn't realize that this

[David Sims]

was 1.2 in the demo.

[J.D. Amato]

And so then they start trying to do these weird things to sort of bring up ratings. They start having these ads that are like very like, is someone going to die? Like, one of the last episodes was Halloween themed and the host is dressed like Dracula. And I remember the tra. The, the. The promo for it was like, will someone die tonight on Utopia? And the answer was like, no, they won't.

[Griffin Newman]

Of course not.

[J.D. Amato]

But it was just like the PT Barnum, like, will you see this? And the show ended after like 10 episodes. It was 12 episodes. Yeah. But it's fascinating because to me it's, it's. It's exactly why the Truman show couldn't exist in real life. Right. Because number one, no one would have the patience to actually let real life unfold. And two, if they did have the patience to let real life unfold and not put their finger on the scale, I don't know that people would watch.

[David Sims]

So I think the Truman show would succeed.

[J.D. Amato]

You do?

[David Sims]

Yes, because I think the difference. Obviously he doesn't know. He doesn't know it's a TV show.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. I guess that is, that is important difference beyond that.

[David Sims]

So when the, when this movie came out, everyone was like, well, this would never. No one watch it. Too boring.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone watching.

[David Sims]

And I'm like, no, everyone would watch it because it would be a window into a life we want.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Into a fantasy. Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

A lot of YouTube, social media stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

The Truman Show.

[David Sims]

What's that Japanese show where everyone's nice to each other in a house?

[J.D. Amato]

Terrace House. Boy Girls in the City.

[David Sims]

Yes. Terrace House.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, Terrace House. Colon. Boys and Girls City was the first one.

[David Sims]

Okay, fair enough. Like, you know, but like those shows where people like, I crave calm, I crave quiet. And like, it just feels like like all the people watching, right? Like the, the audiences, there's like the nice old ladies there's the.

[Griffin Newman]

The security guard slow TV phenomenon which is much bigger in other countries than it is here. But then Netflix starts Japanese family really big.

[J.D. Amato]

I just can't get on board with slow. With slow programming.

[David Sims]

Okay, what about. Oh yeah, 12 hour day. Everyone listen. They put out a new episode recently.

[J.D. Amato]

Someone who doesn't have to 12 hours.

[Griffin Newman]

Also obviously the holiday season you want to slow things down in terms of what you listen to.

[David Sims]

Yeah, well. Well that's a good point.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You wouldn't you maybe just get home

[J.D. Amato]

and be like what's Truman doing?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

You know, flick it on.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. You.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, I listen. I could see you being someone who would be like oh the eight year old Truman's doing homework. I'm going to turn that on the back while I make dinner.

[Griffin Newman]

Obsessed with Truman. Would being like, you guys need to watch.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I'm joking. Let's drop that bit.

[J.D. Amato]

Why? Why are you telling us to drop the bit?

[David Sims]

You drop the bit. No, no.

[Griffin Newman]

Like let's focus on the podcast and maybe spend a little less time on your bathtub web.

[David Sims]

David, I'm gonna short.

[J.D. Amato]

I'm gonna shorten this up so you can bet to the truth.

[David Sims]

Do you figure that there is because they say like we've never stopped transmission.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

So do you figure there's like there's a channel that's just the live show but then there's maybe another channel that has like flashbacks old stuff like you know, like compilations of what happened today.

[J.D. Amato]

This is like the Manning cast and like the like actual football game.

[Griffin Newman]

I imagine it's like a syndication deal where one of the networks is airing the. The package the best of their rerun rotations and then this channel is the raw feed.

[J.D. Amato]

I also think that which then will

[Griffin Newman]

cut in flashbacks at relevant moments when what he's going through is boring.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. I also think when he's sleeping and stuff they're playing best of and they're playing. They're right.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And behind the scenes interviews like.

[David Sims]

And watch him sleep.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. And it's.

[Griffin Newman]

But in the movie we see. It's like a picture in picture where they're like showing in the corner the raw feed of him sleeping while doing the Kristoff interview.

[J.D. Amato]

I was recently. I forgot that I did this but I was recently it was brought up that I I did a project back in the day where I would broadcast myself sleeping. And the idea is called Please influence my Dreams where I would sleep. And then there was a system where you could come on and you could if you would take turns being Able to speak through speakers that spoke to me when I slept and people watched it.

[Griffin Newman]

I wonder why we asked you to be the guest on this episode.

[J.D. Amato]

Because this is because. Because. Because there's a part of my life that I'm like, kristoff's a bad guy. As I'm, like, slowly marching my way towards trying to become Kristoff off and

[Griffin Newman]

Truman at the same time. Can I. Can I pull down a pen? I. I think what's interesting about this movie is there is something.

[David Sims]

He's on the air. On the air, unaware.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, of course, that was very interesting. That's why they put it on the poster. And it opened to a robust $35 million. 40. I think there's something that feels naive about this movie's understanding of how we'd want to watch other people's lives, which isn't to say that people wouldn't watch. I agree with you. But the way the television industry has curdled and adjusted to what people are telling them they want and vice versa has led things into, like, an insane direction. And I think there is this turning point of survivors 2000, and I think the first American Big brother season is 2001, something like that.

[David Sims]

First UK Big Brother was. I was like, 13 or 14, and

[Griffin Newman]

that concept felt insane of like, we're putting people on an island. There is, like, not a fake reality, but there's a forced reality on them. We're taking people out of their element, and you're going to watch human behavior and how they survive. And Richard Hatch, who ends up winning that first Survivor, comes in and is like, this is a game. Yeah. Win a million dollars.

[David Sims]

Right, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But you watch that first season and most of the people are just like, this is interesting. I hang out on an island and I guess at the end of every week there's a popularity contest and someone gets a million dollars at the end. That's the bait to get someone to sign up for this. Why else would you do it? And he immediately is like, this is a game. You play it.

[J.D. Amato]

People were aghast that Richard was lying.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I know.

[David Sims]

It was in Britain. British Big Brother was nasty. Nick was the richer.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the thing. And then Big Brother has to do the same. And people become like.

[David Sims]

I don't think they stylized do the same. People just play it like a game because it is a game, because there's a prize.

[J.D. Amato]

But that's why I brought up Utopias, because I generally think if they had just not cast for conflict and they put together a group of people to try to actually do this. I think it might have actually been engaging television possibly. But I. In a television contest where they were like, no, no, we need conflict, drama, we need ratings.

[Griffin Newman]

The juice of Survivor and Big Brother and, and the copycat shows ultimately becomes the contestants inside of it, manipulating reality. The audience seeing the way that they are working things to their own advantage. Right? And then that in my opinion morphs into like the modern era of like the Bravo reality show and, and the similar shows to that which are presenting to you something almost as if it is the Truman show where these people are acting like they are not constantly being followed by cameras other than when they're doing the direct address moments. They're acting oblivious to it. They're letting people into their homes. Their homes are outfitted with cameras that like both hidden and like right around them. And there are like manipulated plot lines. You have producers going, right, 100%. And it's the fascinating inverse of this where we now have these shows where like, like, you know, they go, they walk among us. It happens in our reality. It is constructed in every step of the way and is presented to us as you're just seeing a raw feed of people behaving. But also it has the same kind of weird gamesmanship inside of it without the prizes of I need to pop. If I get a two episode contract on this, does it lead to a spin off? Does that lead to me being able to start my own like lifestyle brand? Right? And I had this moment the other day in the supermarket where I was like buying soda. My beloved, like fucking digestive sodas. I'm constantly trying every probiotic soda brand to see if anything fixes my body. And there's like a mother, a father and a young child and the mother is talking about like, oh, Olipop, I love these sodas, but they're so expensive. We could never buy a six pack here. And then he goes like, well, you don't buy them at Target. Yeah, they're much cheaper at. And name some website where you can get them sent direct. And then he calls cut and he's like, yeah, I think that's good. And she was like doing a Truman show ad read in real life. And I'm like, this is some family influencer account, right? In which they're shopping at big box stores and then acting out scripted scenarios of their deciding prices is based on who's paying the most to sponsor buying from them instead. And I'm like, we now it's flipped into people are acting fake in our real World broadcasting that stuff back out to us. And we are obsessively watching all of it.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. It's the Truman show without Truman.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. It's fascinating to me.

[David Sims]

I hear you.

[Griffin Newman]

And what we don't want is the, like, idyllic. Can we just watch a person, like, grow and learn? Thing.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. And that's. I think that's what I. Why I bring up this, the 7up series is because I think it's so beautiful in that it's the. It is the irregularity of real life. Right. And what's so fascinating is when you watch, especially the most recent one, it's. It's really powerful to watch because you realize both how predictable, how unpredictable, how fickle, how solid. All of it together is what life is. And the fact that it goes in these directions that only real life could is what's so fascinating. And the moment you try to control becomes this weird sort of, you know, you're. You're. It's a reflection of. Reflection of reflection.

[Griffin Newman]

Valley.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, You're. You're living. It's not even the uncanny Valley. It's just like, on the other side of the graph. It's just not real.

[Griffin Newman]

This also. This movie comes out the same year as 42 up. You know, it's like Andrew Nichol sells his script. I think the same year that 36 up comes out.

[David Sims]

35.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you. I'm not good at math. Which is basically like the age Carrie is when he's doing this movie. Like, the one model of. I'm not saying he was even directly inspired, but the one model of following someone for this long is basically concurrent with the age of this character.

[David Sims]

Ben, what did you want to say?

[Ben Hosley]

He put a pin in Scandal.

[Griffin Newman]

That was all the stuff.

[David Sims]

Can we talk about this show?

[Griffin Newman]

I didn't watch it.

[Ben Hosley]

So when you say talk about Truman

[David Sims]

show plot, the movie. Yes. We're at about two hours.

[Griffin Newman]

Can I talk about the trailers I saw before?

[David Sims]

No, you haven't.

[Griffin Newman]

Theater silence. I think there was a Rugrats movie teaser because that's Paramount's big holiday release.

[J.D. Amato]

I did not think this would be a long episode for the. For. For the record.

[Ben Hosley]

So I think we kind of touched

[Griffin Newman]

on just because I think it's.

[J.D. Amato]

That's an incredible film. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

We're gonna be done in, like, two minutes. We're so close to.

[Ben Hosley]

We've literally got to.

[J.D. Amato]

The light fell.

[David Sims]

So let's pick up there exactly what I am saying, as much as. Yes, it can be interesting to talk about reality, like, in life and all this stuff, like, we should talk more about the movie, which is clockwork construction. As, as, as JD Pointed out and just has like a million bits like that. You know, we should, we gotta, we should consider.

[Ben Hosley]

So he drives to work. We see, we get a taste of

[Griffin Newman]

what his life is like.

[J.D. Amato]

Ben angrily going through the plot point points of the Truman.

[Griffin Newman]

May I run through some time code things as a way of getting us from plot points? Because it's also just fascinating, like, at what moments the movie reveals certain things.

[David Sims]

Okay, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

You open with like, the opening credit interview stuff, right?

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. Light falls at score is amazing, by the way. Yes.

[David Sims]

The score is weird because it's largely other music. It's largely Philip Glass music from other. From Mishima and from Pawakatsi, but then

[Griffin Newman]

also some original Philip Glass track facts.

[David Sims]

No, original Burkhard Dwitz is the guy who's doing the Truman Sleeps. That stuff is not, I think, well, now I want to look it up

[Griffin Newman]

because I met this girl online who told me that she wrote Truman sleeves.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. And I, I.

[Griffin Newman]

Did you get that?

[David Sims]

I, I didn't. I, I. You have to explain it to me.

[Griffin Newman]

The movie.

[David Sims]

I have not seen that.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay, so Griff has now checked the bingo card of the two things he texted. Correct. That he wanted to talk about today.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

He's like texting with this woman and he's like, she's a musician. Listen, this thing she wrote and it's.

[David Sims]

Stop. Okay. All right. So after, after he goes to work.

[Griffin Newman]

Swear to God, that was written by Philip Glass.

[David Sims]

Correct. Truman Sleeps is written. But so, yes, Ms. He must have done some new stuff.

[Ben Hosley]

David, what if I got you a crossing guard stop sign with that?

[David Sims]

That would rock.

[Griffin Newman]

That would Sleep's written by Philip Glass and that girl from Facebook. The light falls out at three minutes.

[David Sims]

Minutes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. At under 10 minutes, he can't get on the boat. Like you're introducing that correctly.

[David Sims]

So he goes to work. He's doing the, you know, making. Tearing out the pages of the.

[J.D. Amato]

Oh, yes.

[David Sims]

Magazine, which you're kind of like, I

[J.D. Amato]

thought you're doing a lawnmower motion there.

[David Sims]

But all of Peter Krausa comes over. The great Peter.

[Griffin Newman]

His catchphrase routines of the banter with the magazine guy about. For the wife and the greeting to the neighbors.

[David Sims]

But yes, the, the he, you know, Krausa comes out to give him the challenge. Clearly, it's basically like, here's, here's today's drum. He's gonna have to go to the island, you know, to do a sales pitch or whatever. And he can't do it.

[Griffin Newman]

It is fascinating.

[David Sims]

Beautifully played by Carrie, the way he holds on to the little, you know, post.

[Griffin Newman]

But also fascinating to consider that, like, the way they enforce his fears is to constantly tell. Test them. Rather they have to test him away.

[David Sims]

But I also think it's that they need something interesting to happen today. Like, he can't just go to work every day. The thing I like the most in that scene is, is that the guys on the boat are like, hey, do you need help? Which is like a normal thing to do. And you're like, they're actors and they're. They're like, what are they thinking about?

[J.D. Amato]

Am I wrong, though, that also before this, Truman starts talking about how he wants to see the world. And so a part of me, it happens, right?

[David Sims]

It's after. It's basically nothing has happened because I.

[J.D. Amato]

I felt like he made some reference to it. And that's why they're sort of inserting, like, remind him that he hates traveling.

[David Sims]

Has.

[Griffin Newman]

It just feels like, right. This is a thing they do on some schedule every four months or whatever to like, re. Establish it, whether for the audience or for him.

[David Sims]

Because after that is Laura Linney arrives with the Dicer Slicer, you know, and then it's him and Noah Emerick. What is his character name?

[Griffin Newman]

But that's when he's like the golf

[David Sims]

ball talking about the road. That's when he does the Fiji, does the around.

[Griffin Newman]

And then the movie gives you the first flashback of. Of his dad drowning. Right. Which at that point in the movie, you maybe think that's just movie language rather than understanding that would be part of the broadcast. But then, as you said, like, the security guards are the first audience members you see at like 15 minutes in. They then basically immediately go into. Well, he sees his dad.

[David Sims]

The next thing is he sees his dad. What do you want to say, jd?

[J.D. Amato]

I also think and sees his dad and then talks to his mom right after.

[David Sims]

No, no, but the. The. No. The Caesar's dad sequence is so awesome because it's like you watch Reality Warp.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. The thing that I want to talk about a little briefly, though, is that in the flashback of the dad, the thing that is set up that is like so horrific is it's not just that his dad died.

[David Sims]

He begged his dad to take him

[J.D. Amato]

out and that they set it up so that it's Truman's fault.

[David Sims]

It's the worst.

[J.D. Amato]

It's like so horrifying.

[Griffin Newman]

It.

[David Sims]

It really upset me watching it this time. But it's also like, in a new, like, freaky way, it is fascinating character

[Griffin Newman]

motivation where they're like, well, you sit down, you write a screenplay. There's nothing immoral about it because you're not dealing with a real life. But at a certain point, they understand this falls apart if he ever has the desire to reach further beyond the reality we can construct. So we have to narrativize. What are the, like, incidents of motivation that would cripple him this thoroughly.

[J.D. Amato]

Which I think is such. It's such a crazy ethical thing to put on screen is because. Right to the actors in it, they're like, well, this isn't real. You know, I'm. I'm performing a role. But to this kid, it is real. His dad. He watched his dad die.

[Griffin Newman]

But this is.

[J.D. Amato]

You know what I mean? Like. Like, to Truman, this is all real. Which is what's so fascinating, because I think that's also a thing that TV uses a lot where it's like, you know, it's like the. This is a prank thing, where it's like, it's a prank. It's a prank. It's like, well, no, you actually did that shitty thing to that person.

[Griffin Newman]

But also, this is how we talk about, like, movies every. You know, several times a week in this room where you're like, do you buy that he's, like, too scared to travel? And you go, like, yeah, because, you know, if it was just that his dad drowned, that'd be one thing. But the fact that he wanted the dad to take him on the trip, that makes it personal. You're like, right, that's a good writing.

[David Sims]

Is Holland Taylor's character kind of the most horrifying to consider?

[Griffin Newman]

I think, so.

[J.D. Amato]

The fake.

[Ben Hosley]

The mom.

[J.D. Amato]

The mom.

[David Sims]

Sorry. Like, because she's essentially raised this child since birth, but she's not his mom.

[Griffin Newman]

And she seems to have no lingering guilt about it.

[David Sims]

It.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

And she, like, she plays all the lies very well.

[J.D. Amato]

Well. And she. She seems very proud of the fact that she's Truman Burbank's mom. Yeah, like. Like that. That's so good. Like, when he's missing, she has that line where she's like. She's like, let me say his name. He'll like. It's in a way that's like. Like, you know, chilling.

[Griffin Newman]

But it also feels like you don't want to see her do talking head interviews because that becomes too depressing. Like, it's kind of a good judgment on Weird.

[David Sims]

The other thing I think about of, like. Like, how often does he see his Mom. Let's say once a week. Couple times a week. Right. So what does she do otherwise?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Does she leave?

[J.D. Amato]

And that's the question for all of this. Was. Is like what. What is the. What is the schedule of their lives?

[David Sims]

Right.

[J.D. Amato]

That's why it's like fascinating when that elevator door opens and you see people in like this little mini green room.

[David Sims]

Well, that I love. But I love the bus driver.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Where I'm like, so do they just sit there all the time in case Truman wants to take a bus or did they get kind of assembled there or does he drive the bus?

[Griffin Newman]

Bus. My reading.

[David Sims]

Does he kind of just drive it off and drive it back?

[Ben Hosley]

There's the part where he is starting

[David Sims]

to realize the boat and he says I'm the bus driver. Cuz I love that part.

[Ben Hosley]

Well, no, I was though more referencing the part where Carrie starts to realize that people are just on a loop.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

People are on loops. Right. And they do their loops.

[Ben Hosley]

The bus driver just might have his route and they just does it every day.

[J.D. Amato]

They have their first position, which clearly is like, oh, this is start our day.

[David Sims]

Start 6am Right?

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. And you probably have an eight hour shift where you do X, Y and Y and Z.

[David Sims]

Wait. And if you think about it, our

[Ben Hosley]

lives, it's almost kind of like we're showing up to first position.

[David Sims]

So like especially when you run a podcast.

[J.D. Amato]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Very true.

[David Sims]

Slaves to the wage.

[J.D. Amato]

When I, when I walked in late, you guys were all frozen in place. And then when I open the door, you're able to start moving.

[Griffin Newman]

15 minutes in is the mom. Right. Then Laurel and he comes down with the slice and dicer.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Takes out the cardigan. And that's when we cut to the bar for the first time.

[David Sims]

And you do the big flashback.

[J.D. Amato]

Right.

[David Sims]

Long flashback.

[J.D. Amato]

We also went over. I know David wanted to talk about seeing the dad for the first time because that is.

[David Sims]

Oh, I just love the way that like without us listening to Kristoff and watching him direct traffic. We're watching traffic get directed against.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. It's brilliant.

[David Sims]

The runners coming out and blocking him. Like the way people just suck him into a bus. Just like, just paranoia, baby.

[J.D. Amato]

Like you know, you're experiencing the world from Truman's point of view. You. Because if you kept cutting to Kristoff and him going, send out the runner. Send out to this. You wouldn't be experiencing it. The. You wouldn't be having the same journey Truman's having, which is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is starting to fall apart also. What I love about the dad is he's kind of just like, standing there in a very strange way, dressed in very well, because I think he got

[David Sims]

in pretending to be like, a hobo or something.

[J.D. Amato]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But he's just standing there, seemingly not interact with him, or he's gauging whether or not it's the right move.

[David Sims]

Right.

[J.D. Amato]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And then when Truman looks at him, he's like, this is my shot.

[David Sims]

Right. Because he knows if he just ran up to him then.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

You know, he'll get taken out.

[Griffin Newman]

That's part of what's. I think the movie very wisely understands. Almost 20 minutes in, if we start thinking about the immorality of what's happening here, it could get too depressing. And so you need an interception from the outside world to be like, there are people who are morally conflicted about what's going on here. And so the idea that this moment with the dad, you're like, has he been in the system for months or years, just observing him from a distance, and this is the first time he's actually, like, gotten close enough.

[David Sims]

I don't think so.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's pretty recent. It seems a five to me. It seems like in his plan, the

[J.D. Amato]

whole town is not getting that day. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, it's like, it's not that big

[J.D. Amato]

and we'll get to it. But one of my favorite details of it that I think answers a lot of those questions in the simplest way possible is they show the two clips of. Of the person parachuting in and the person jumping out of the Christmas present.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[J.D. Amato]

And those are two things that, like, the inclusion of those two things implies a whole universe that's happening in the real world of people who are like, this is horrific that you're doing this and you have to stop it.

[David Sims]

The. The person who parachutes seems to want to save him a little bit more. Because the person who pops out of

[J.D. Amato]

the presence says, like, I'm on tv.

[David Sims]

I did it. The baseball streaker.

[J.D. Amato]

Exactly.

[David Sims]

Like, the guy who's like, I can't believe it.

[Griffin Newman]

But even Natasha M. Melhone M. I the pin feels like it's part of a movement.

[David Sims]

I think.

[Griffin Newman]

So Isn't looking to completely destroy the show, but is sort of like, obsessed. Is obsessed. How's it going to the ethics of it?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And that she. She's not waiting for him to interact with her. And in fact, she's sort of freaked out by, like, I've clearly wanted this, but I wasn't planning to, like, breach the seal.

[J.D. Amato]

I.

[David Sims]

The Question of how's it going to end. The implication to me could mean, like, they're not, you know, they're obsessed with the show. It could also mean that the, the big question of the Truman show, which is like, are we going to watch him die one day? And, and how is that the end of the show? What is it, you know? Now we're not asking the biggest question.

[J.D. Amato]

Poop.

[David Sims]

Sorry to. No, that one doesn't bother me. What do you mean? Oh, sure, jacking it. How much is he jacking it?

[Griffin Newman]

While the wind blows the curb.

[David Sims]

And what do they do?

[Griffin Newman]

Right, you know, women's magazines and he makes collage art. And he never touches his.

[David Sims]

He might not. I mean, he's a pretty, pretty uptight guy. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

He has rope sex with Laura Lynn. He's crossing all fingers on all hands. Crossing her toes.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, it's rough out there. A funny detail.

[David Sims]

Just like the idea. We're like, oh, we made a show about a guy like, oh, yeah, what's it like? He jerks off a lot. Like, it's like especially what was like 13 to 19. Like, he jerked off.

[Ben Hosley]

That must have been really cut a lot of.

[Griffin Newman]

A lot of flashbacks.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, 13 to 19. We had to hire extra editors, some packages of baseball games and stuff.

[David Sims]

Right.

[J.D. Amato]

But there's also Truman's remembering his third birthday party. Again. Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

You can ask like dog tooth style questions about the world where you're like, right, rain can't exist in a narrow silo because that disconnects us from our reality. But if these are the things you don't want to show on television, then maybe in sexual said class they're like, and of course, sexual intercourse is when you touch someone else's hand. And then every night he and Laura Linney just like shake hands. And he never considers his penises for anything other than peeing. I think these are the big questions this movie asks.

[J.D. Amato]

I'm sure there's like fan fiction about it, but it would be interesting, like to see the movie from the perspective of like a hired actor who's just like a kid in his class who's

[David Sims]

not fascinating to consider all that. Exactly. Like, what was his class classroom like? How did those kids not talk to him? Seems insane.

[J.D. Amato]

And those kids just had to like, show up and live that life in the same way that like, you know, when you look at child actors, they're like, well, my whole life was on set. I didn't get to have a child.

[David Sims]

I don't know, you know, and all

[J.D. Amato]

these Kids not only didn't get to have a childhood, they. They had to have Truman Burbank's childhood.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, and even the no Emrick character, it's like, like Topanga on Boy Meets World was like a one episode character named Weird Girl. And then they were like, like, weird Girl is good. And then they like bring her back for more and then it develops into a romance and the entire show is about them as a couple. And she spent eight years growing up on like American screens.

[J.D. Amato]

They deleted the scene. But there's a scene from the Truman show where he, one of his neighbors comes over and like knocks over a bunch of stuff and is like, did I do that? And then like, everyone went nuts and like, people were like. People were trying to tear down the dome because they wanted more of him.

[Griffin Newman]

He like goes inside and then you hear like a lot of machines whirring. And then a similar looking guy comes out. But he's really cool.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So after this sort of first half hour, which is like true Truman, like that.

[J.D. Amato]

The Truman.

[David Sims]

It's a great bit. It's a great bit. I support the bit.

[J.D. Amato]

Thank you.

[David Sims]

But it's funny bit. I mean, what those guys did on Family Matters, that was so Greatest writing.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's that kind of thing where you must be like, was Noah Emer hired to be his best friend?

[David Sims]

No, I think Noah popped. Stopped. Exactly. That's what it is. He had chemistry with them and they were like, great, okay, you'll be the friend. Yeah. So after that first half hour is when Truman. So we're just like, we're in which we vaguely feel narrative, you know, that's. Sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

The scene 30 minutes is the moment where he starts pushing against it, where he's stopping the trap.

[David Sims]

He goes through the revolving door, comes out the other side. Philip Glass's anthem starts playing the dune. Dun, dun, dun. And he stops the buses and all that.

[Griffin Newman]

And we introduce the bar on either side of the sort of flashback thing of them being like, oh, there's a new hire who doesn't. Isn't up with the Truman lore. And all the other staff members at the Truman Bar are like, this is the.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

You believe.

[Griffin Newman]

You don't know the plot line about the woman.

[J.D. Amato]

But there's.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. The great.

[J.D. Amato]

He starts having that realization because the system starts breaking, the light falls, the radio tuner changes.

[David Sims]

That happens later. The radio thing. But yes. Yeah, absolutely.

[J.D. Amato]

There's one or two other things that happen that.

[Griffin Newman]

That is two. And radio tuner is three.

[J.D. Amato]

Dad is two. Dad.

[Griffin Newman]

What I love, I Think this movie is perfectly dialed in on are. I hate movies in which people figure things out too quickly. But I hate even more movies in which people continue to not get smart about the reality about them. And I think, like a lot of modern horror, elevated horror in particular has this problem where characters just keep going like, that was weird. And then go back to reality. And this is a movie where it's like, if the light flies out of the sky, he doesn't immediately go, oh, my God, my life's been a TV show. But when three things happen within two days, it's just enough to start him testing. Like, what are the limits of this?

[J.D. Amato]

But what I also think is fascinating about this and why I think it resonates so much. Right. Is that how many systems this is related to. Right. Where people tried to create a sense of control, to create some sort of thing that is, this is the way

[David Sims]

the world works, works.

[J.D. Amato]

And then people's journey is that they start to see the cracks of that. And it's that system. It's impossible to create a system that permanently embubbles someone, whether it's religion or society or schooling or family. It's like, that's such a universal feeling that you start seeing the cracks and seams.

[David Sims]

The more you, you know, enclose, the more people will push back. What do you make of. I love the photo album scene, obviously, because the fake Mount Rushmore is so funny.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But then because it also A whole car ride.

[J.D. Amato]

It also whole car ride. It. It also presupposes that they're sort of like, oh, shoot, we need some of this stuff. And like, we don't really have the budget to really go for this. So, like, we can probably just get this out of the way now. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's earlier days of the show. And also, can the family go on this many trips so he doesn't grow up and go like, you know, I've never actually been. They can just kind of rely on his fuzzy childhood memories.

[David Sims]

Where I start, I'm like, but how would he. We know that families go on trips, but again, I feel like they're just like, everyone should talk to him. Like, he's normal. That. Right. Laura Linney. They're looking at the wedding photos and Laura Linney points to these three girls and she goes like, Judy, Jody, Joanne. It's a weird gag because it's never like. But like, are those like runner up Laura Linney types? Like, who are they? Are they. They're just like the lame supporting cast she used to have who Are maybe not used much anymore.

[Griffin Newman]

Get to the flashback and Linny is like faking the injury to fall into his arms. You go like, is this an actress who's really enterprising or did she go through all the levels of casting and feel more like the second perfect. You're the one. And now you have to win in real time that he's naturally looking somewhere else.

[David Sims]

Because like when they're. When Laura has left him when you know and they introduce the new love interest clearly, like she's been pre selected because you have to pick someone who will play the game.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Like you can't just. You know what? He has chemistry with Natasha McElhone now. We'll figure it out. So he keeps pressing against reality. He goes to the hospital to look at the operation which is such. Which is so funny. The guy being like, I'll just.

[J.D. Amato]

It kind of reminds me.

[David Sims]

Incision here now. And he does.

[Griffin Newman]

Because she freaks out and they put the gas mask on her. And he goes, we'll have someone else clean this.

[David Sims]

Someone else will clean this up.

[Griffin Newman]

And Laura Linnie says like this is really good. You handle that really well. Where it's just like, yeah. An actor has to stay in the reality if push to the limits. You have to make an incision on this one.

[David Sims]

The travel agency where every poster is

[J.D. Amato]

like you could not lightning striking a plane.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[J.D. Amato]

I, I. What I also think is fascinating is

[Griffin Newman]

that booked out for a month. It's the busy season.

[David Sims]

I actually sympathize with the fake travel agent there where she's like, we live in some type. You want to go to Fiji. How many flights to Fiji are there?

[J.D. Amato]

Well, that's the thing is I'm also, I'm like, I'm like we live in New York City and it's like to get to Fiji would be like three planes.

[David Sims]

Oh yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, exactly. Let's see.

[J.D. Amato]

But I think something that resonates to me about Truman's experience and being slightly tangential to the immersive theater world in New York and things like that. Right. Like everybody's first instinct when they, when they realize there's a system or something to explore is you. You start trying to find the places where you. It could break to see where. Where it could go. Right. Like when you go to sleep no more. It's like, yeah, there's the instinct where you want to follow the main characters, but there's also an instinct where you're like, I want to go find the room that no one else is in. I want to see where the. Where the boundaries of this thing are. And so I love the fact that when he starts realizing what's going on, his instinct is like, let me sprint towards the things that I've never seen. Or, like, let me see where the boundaries of this are.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's such a good detail that he's like, I'm running into the office building. That's not the one I work in. The place I'd never have a reason to go into. He pushes the limits. He sees the elevator, people get in, the doors close. Like they were prepared enough for that. What they weren't prepared enough for was the feeling that that wasn't enough. Because everyone loosens up after that moment when the security guards are getting through to be like, well, we don't have to fake it again.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. And I also love the idea that it sort of begs the question. And again, this is all subtext, which is so fun about it. It is that he goes to the hospital, and you can kind of tell everyone's like, oh, normally we just, like, kind of hang out here and wait until it's time for, you know, us to interact with Truman again.

[David Sims]

I think that's what they do. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

That's back to the Holland Taylor question. It's like, okay, she do. Does she only, like, she's a higher level. Yeah.

[David Sims]

But Truman could have to call his mom at any point.

[Griffin Newman]

Totally.

[David Sims]

If you work at the. I feel like the hospital might be empty unless he starts going near it. And then they're like, get people.

[J.D. Amato]

Which it seems, is the energy at the hospital. Everyone's like, what's going on here?

[David Sims]

I love to think about.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's more like the people at the hospital are like Broadway standbys, and they're, like, prepped for this day, but it's rarely tested.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Because it's like they're ready enough to have someone on an operating table. All the equipment, the set going that deep, like, all of that. The thing is that it's just like they're kind of out of practice. And he usually settles for seeing far less.

[J.D. Amato]

What one of my core childhood memories is, there's a period of time where I was dealing with a lot of anxiety and a lot of sleep issue stuff. And I worked with a therapist who, like, tried to, like, get me into, like, lucid dreaming stuff. And whether I was actually lucid dreaming or if I was, like, dreaming that I was lucid dreaming, who knows what the difference is?

[Griffin Newman]

And later, you let people influence your dreams.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes, exactly. But one of the things that I remember, it's a dream that, like, stays with me and might have brought this up. People have like, oh, and I've had a similar dream. Dream where it's like I was in a dream and then I was like, I want to go explore the city. And then, like, my dream was like, no, no, you're supposed to be in this storyline. But I was like, no, I want to go, like, climb a building and jump off of it and see if I can fly. And like, the dream kind of being like, you're not supposed to. And so I feel like that Truman experience is this, like, relatable feeling that's so core of like, all right, there's this path you're supposed to go on, and what happens if you just run in a different direction?

[David Sims]

I looked it up. All right, the flight's in an hour, so I don't think I could make it. But I could go to Fiji.

[Griffin Newman]

When would you get there?

[David Sims]

So I would leave now? 4:30pm from John F. Kennedy International Airport.

[Griffin Newman]

3:30pm you're forgetting daylight savings time.

[David Sims]

No. What? What do you mean? I'm forgetting that it already happened.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm saying it is 3:30pm I'm saying the flight's at 4:40. I'm so sorry.

[David Sims]

It would get me there 5:45am, two days later. There's one stop, just one stop at Dallas Fort Worth.

[J.D. Amato]

Is it at Seahaven?

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's at Seahaven. American Airlines. And then I switched to Fiji Airways.

[Griffin Newman]

And how long is the second leg?

[David Sims]

It says the entire thing would take me 21 hours and 15 minutes. Which is not short.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not short.

[David Sims]

And then the way back, also just one stop. But that one seems to have a longer stopover, so it's a 30 hour.

[J.D. Amato]

Sorry, you want to know?

[Griffin Newman]

I just have to correct you, David. Way back. As Peter Weir's final film later, in just 12 weeks.

[J.D. Amato]

And you know who takes that trip all the time?

[David Sims]

Who?

[J.D. Amato]

Jeff Probst, probably.

[David Sims]

Right.

[J.D. Amato]

He has to go to Fiji all the time.

[David Sims]

And it's $1,100, which is not that much money, considering you're going to fucking do it. It's not nothing.

[J.D. Amato]

I'm just gonna say it right now. Economy. Should we all Truman show ourselves? Should we just get up and go to Fiji right now?

[David Sims]

Oh, so to you, Truman show yourself. It's not like, be the star of a show.

[Griffin Newman]

I love the Truman Show.

[David Sims]

Try down desperately at all costs to go to Fiji.

[Griffin Newman]

It's now like a medical term for, like, a psychological condition, and we're going to take it back and being like, I'm going to do a Truman Show. Just get on a flight to Fiji.

[David Sims]

If I'm a travel agent and a guy walks in in shorts with one small suitcase and is like, fiji today, please. I might be like, are you okay?

[J.D. Amato]

No, let's all.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, let's Trumaning pretty hard.

[J.D. Amato]

Let's do a Truman show day where we bum rush a surgery.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

And then try to go to Fiji as fast as possible.

[David Sims]

No, no, try to go to Fiji, pivot to Chicago, and then pivot. Pivot to. I feel like he just kind of pivots to, like, New Orleans. Right. That's his next.

[Griffin Newman]

I also. I love that Fiji is like a panic. Atlantic City from the dad. Okay, Right.

[J.D. Amato]

The Truman show challenge is you. You have to bum rush a surgery and then get. Get away from a landmass or a car.

[David Sims]

It's like, you try playing, then try bus, then cut. Try car.

[Griffin Newman]

Press elevator buttons in a bunch of random office building lobbies.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. You have to go. You have to go past security guards and office building. Bum rush a surgery.

[Griffin Newman]

Buy one magazine.

[David Sims]

So after the bus, I just want

[Griffin Newman]

to see the future thing.

[David Sims]

Oh, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

I think that moment is so effective where, like, Natasha McElhone is, like, in true conspiracy thriller, this is about to end any moment. Kind of panic that he's oblivious to. The dad comes. Is playing it really well.

[David Sims]

Yeah. He's like, sorry, mentally ill. Like, you

[Griffin Newman]

know, you're not the first guy she's taken to the beach.

[J.D. Amato]

And the dad does not feel like an actor. The dad feels like he's someone who's part of the, like, the security detail of the show.

[David Sims]

Actually, he won an Emmy that year I'm seeing here.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's, like, prepped with the things to say. And then Truman goes like, well, like, can I call tomorrow to see how she's doing? And he goes like, no, we're moving to Fiji tomorrow. Like, the Fiji is such a.

[David Sims]

That's why he calls Fiji like director,

[J.D. Amato]

but that's why I think it's a

[Griffin Newman]

bad lie that now has. He's hyper fixated on for 20 years,

[J.D. Amato]

which I love, because. Yeah, again, I think not that old.

[David Sims]

No, no. Like 10. Like, Truman's maybe 29 or 30. Like, he's pretty young, I think.

[J.D. Amato]

No, they. They keep. They keep saying 30. That's his 30th year. But what I love is that you get the sense that this guy is not an actor. He's not. He's someone who is probably part of the, the production detail or something. And so the fact that in that moment he's like, she's like, find me. And he's like trying to figure out how to solve this. But he's not a creative guy. He's like, he's like, we're just going to Fiji. The fact that that becomes now imprinted lore in the history of the show so is so amazing.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's like, like kryptonite being invented. Because the guy doing the Superman radio show needed an excuse to take vacations.

[David Sims]

So.

[Griffin Newman]

And they were like, sometimes Superman gets really tired for two weeks.

[David Sims]

Right. It's day 10,909.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And that's 29 years and 8ish months.

[J.D. Amato]

Because they keep talking in the interviews about our 30th year of doing this show.

[Griffin Newman]

I guess he's mid-30s when they film it because.

[David Sims]

But like the show started, she's like, we're gonna have a baby soon.

[J.D. Amato]

Like kind of show started before he was born.

[David Sims]

Born, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[J.D. Amato]

The first start with one camera.

[Griffin Newman]

That's true. And this movie was filmed before our current Jim Carrey was born.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Jim Carrey 5.

[J.D. Amato]

Oh, got it. Yes.

[David Sims]

Right. Carrie 5.0.

[J.D. Amato]

So wait. Okay, got it.

[Griffin Newman]

Weapon V. Can I say, I just don't understand why that is breaking people's brains where I'm like, every famous person looks weird.

[David Sims]

Every famous. Well, no, it's not just that. Remember when Tom Cruise looked kind of weird?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Have you seen pictures of him recently? He looks better.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. He was at the hockey game and it was like the work hasn't settled.

[David Sims]

They get Botox or they get an old, you know, something and like it looks weird for.

[Griffin Newman]

He didn't even seem like himself though. It's a different guy. And I'm like, he, Jim Carrey, the

[David Sims]

weirdest person in the world.

[Griffin Newman]

Speech in French. Not his native language. He is the weirdest, most inconsistent man in the world who's been very open with his like mental health struggles. Like the idea that people are like, there is no other explanation.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, it's also, I don't think it's any of our business how people choose to look.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't either.

[J.D. Amato]

Any, any of the reason, any, any people feel like they need to look is because of people commenting and talking about it constantly over and over again where I'm like, I'm like, it's that self fulfilling thing where you're like, that's the hell. You're curious why celebrities are changing how they look because of this conversation.

[David Sims]

Okay, Jim Carrey. Sorry. Truman. Takes, after all this, takes Laura Linney in the car to show her the, like, the loops, like, the car coming out and then just gone from, like, hospital.

[J.D. Amato]

Merrill.

[David Sims]

Yeah. So the actress is Hannah.

[J.D. Amato]

The.

[David Sims]

The character is Meryl.

[Griffin Newman]

He's gone from hospital to the bus. Like, he's tried to escape immediately. And then he. He's right.

[David Sims]

And then they drive over the bridge. He still thinks he can maybe trust her. They drive over the bridge together. They're kind of in it together, which I do like.

[J.D. Amato]

And she has a moment. She's like, oh, Truman.

[David Sims]

There's that part when they hit the bridge where she's like, yeah, you could never do this.

[J.D. Amato]

And it's like, kind of still do it. Oh, sweetheart. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But then she's a good actor where she knows what to say to psychologically manipulate him in behavior, not in, like, telling him what to do.

[David Sims]

But she kind of likes that they make it over, over together. Like, he's like, we did it. Yeah. And then there's the fire. You know, they have to, like, drive through the fire.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And I love that he keeps pointing out, like, look at that timing. It's so perfect. You know, the traffic jam.

[David Sims]

And then. No, no, after that. No, Then it's the cop. No, the traffic jam already happened. The fire. And then the cop who's like, whole area's been evacuated, chemical spill. He's like, all right. The guy's like, no problem, Truman. Which I just love that you're like, it would happen.

[Griffin Newman]

It would happen.

[J.D. Amato]

Because also, these guys. These guys are not called upon friends. These guys who are. Their job is to show up and eat donuts all day, and they're like, oh, no, we have to do the thing today.

[David Sims]

And so then the guy in the

[Griffin Newman]

hazmat, he's never been this.

[David Sims]

He's never been this. Right? Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Paranoid. And then we have the moment Ben called out where he fully, like, blips

[J.D. Amato]

out, grabs her, and it's a terrifying moment. You're.

[Griffin Newman]

It.

[J.D. Amato]

It's. It's. It's the moment in which you're like, this is a not well person who's been broken by all of.

[Ben Hosley]

I guess maybe I just. Just wanted them to cut to the viewers at home witnessing that. There's just something about it that it doesn't feel like it's passing enough judgment.

[David Sims]

He doesn't actually hold Ben, I want to say he does not hold the thing to her. He grabs. She's pointing it at him, and he grabs her by the Arm, you know, and pulls her up to him.

[Ben Hosley]

But there's the point.

[J.D. Amato]

But then.

[David Sims]

And then disarms her where he takes it out.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

He's not threatening her with the blade.

[Griffin Newman]

She's coming at him.

[David Sims]

He's grabbing because she's threatening him.

[Ben Hosley]

I remember when his friend comes in, he has it pointed at her.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes.

[David Sims]

No, no, she. She points it at him.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[J.D. Amato]

Wait around.

[Griffin Newman]

He says, do something right here.

[David Sims]

Right, right. Well, no, he's. Again, he's. No, he's not pointing it.

[Ben Hosley]

I know, but he's holding her. I know.

[David Sims]

I mean, we're arguing.

[Ben Hosley]

Some man. I'm sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

He's holding her. She says, do something. When she says that, he lets go and he's like, what the is going on?

[David Sims]

And then she's like, I didn't say anything. I didn't say anything. Like, you know, and, like, is trying to go back to normal mode. And then what I love is, how can they expect me to carry on under these conditions? The most, like, actorly way to put, like, I can't do my job anymore.

[J.D. Amato]

Then she goes, it's unprofessional.

[David Sims]

It's unprofessional.

[Griffin Newman]

When Noah Emmerich comes in, Ben, she's, like, trying to leave. He's holding her against the wall and he's got the dicer in his hand. So it's kind of in the touchy area of, like, he's holding weapon because he'd had to take it away from her. And he's physically losing it. And she feels threatened by the fact that there's a sharp thing near her.

[David Sims]

Also. He knows that, like, she's. He's lost his trust in her, going crazy.

[Ben Hosley]

It's important that we're pointing it out. It's still, you know, upsetting.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes, it's upset, I think, supposed to resonate of domestic violence and feeling. You know what I mean? It's like, it's.

[David Sims]

And go right to another upsetting thing, which is Noah Em's like, let's go have a beer.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, and I also just want to say that, like, when Noah Emmerich comes in, when he hears the knock at the door, and he's like, it's going to be more men in suits or whatever. That's the one time he sticks the dicer out.

[J.D. Amato]

He does.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Not at her, at the door, where he's like, someone worse is about to come in.

[David Sims]

But then it's so depressing that it's like they go sit, they have the beers, and Noah Em doing the usual, like, you know, we all feel this way and we, you know, like. And. But you're cutting now to G him the lion. And you're just like, right?

[J.D. Amato]

And what he says, no sincerity to it, is if everyone's in on a Truman, I would have to be in it.

[David Sims]

And then of course, they're like, and now here's your dad. Like, like. And that's how that. This is where we're gonna. This is one hour into the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It's also like a Mulholland Drive moment where Kristoff's giving him this, like, somewhat boilerplate dialogue and he's speaking in a little bit. And Emmerich's also like, grounding it in

[David Sims]

something where he changes words and stuff, like. And it's like, clearly he has the latitude to do that.

[Griffin Newman]

And when you hear him say, if everyone's in on it, that would mean I'm in on Truman. It's heartbreaking because he's found a way to make that line feel honest. But it also probably is reflective of the fact that this guy feels so guilty that he's having to say this to this guy. And he is.

[David Sims]

They have the reunion with the dad and it's like you're, you're playing the evil, like the number one card. Your father, you who died, is a lie.

[Ben Hosley]

He also must be feeling shame because everyone's watching him at home do this.

[David Sims]

Well, and this is where, where you, like, the reality breaks, where you're like, congress. I know Congress isn't always number one, but we're coming. But, like, wouldn't someone have objected very close, like at some point shortly.

[Griffin Newman]

So when Andrew Nicholl pitched this film, it was pitched as in the near future.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

A man lives unwillingly, unknowingly, in a 24 hour soap opera opera. This movie doesn't really make it clear what year it is. I'm not saying 30 57.

[David Sims]

No. Because, like, everyone seems pretty modern, like regular contemporary.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's another line of dialogue that we're almost at that I think about so much where Harry Shearer is doing this kind of victory lap interview with Kristoff to, like, address how close the show came to going off the rails and how they, like, snatched it from the jaws of defeat. And he goes, truman was the first, first child legally adopted by a corporation. Isn't that true? And he goes, that's right. And they don't tell you that it's happened many other times since then, but it's presented as like. And people might not remember that was the first time that ever happened.

[David Sims]

You're right that you could take it that way.

[J.D. Amato]

Right.

[David Sims]

It's sort of like, was this the beginning of.

[Griffin Newman]

So the ripple effects of it, especially not seeing broadly the outside world. I'm not like this is happening 80,000 cases all over the place. But when you're like, why is Congress intervening or not? You're like, to some degree, he's crossed all those barriers and continued to get approval collusion.

[J.D. Amato]

You know, I. I also think with the reunion of the dad and all that stuff, I think part of the point of the violet scene between him and the wife where it's like, it. It is violent and scary, is that there's no. You can't go back from that. You can't go, she's gone. You can't go back into normalcy. Even the relationship. Your relationship will never be the same if you've had that interaction. Action. And so it's like, also, if you

[David Sims]

basically accused your wife of being a pod person.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, that's what I'm saying. Like. Like an actor. All of this stuff has, as. They have now crossed the line where there's no world in which they can go back to happy 50s universe unless they make, quote, unquote, major rewrites, which

[Griffin Newman]

acknowledges where it, like, Harry Shearer's like, a masterstroke. How did you come up with that to bring the dad back? And he's like, look, everything started going kind of sideways because of the dad that. So the only way to resolve this was to, like, bring it full circle.

[David Sims]

The best line in the movie, though, is when it's like, and how are you going to explain. He's like, amnesia. And they're like, brilliant.

[Ben Hosley]

And so the dad wanted to get back on the show.

[David Sims]

He was doing that independently. And obviously Kristoff is like, all right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like Kristoff would have said a week ago that would destroy reality under no circumstances. And now he's pushed into a situation where he's like, we have to bring the data. So at this point, own it.

[David Sims]

There's 30 minutes left in the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Movie, yeah.

[David Sims]

Right. And like, you know, you have the whole. The whole Kristoff sequence is about 10 minutes, the sort of Harry Shearer interview stuff. And you have just a few minutes of like, okay, he's sleeping, things are back to normal. He does the, you know, the soap in the mirror, right? Like he, you know, like, oh, it's okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Truman's back strokes his big face.

[J.D. Amato]

That's after that. The Harry Shearer interview.

[David Sims]

That's after that's. Basically when it's like Truman has woken up, then we get the impression that maybe a little bit of time has passed because, like, Laura Linney moves out. Out, right? So like, maybe weeks have passed and he's being normal.

[Griffin Newman]

I think we said the movie is supposed to depict the last week of broadcasting on this show, but like, he

[David Sims]

digs a ton, you know, like they, you know, she moves out, whatever, you know, something's going, you know.

[J.D. Amato]

Harry Sheer interview serves to give us our first sort of temporal time.

[David Sims]

Right. We can kind of like take a bit of a break.

[J.D. Amato]

Answers a handful of the questions. That's what. That's.

[David Sims]

How does this work?

[J.D. Amato]

The Christmas present guy and all that stuff. Also a great side point of things that when I was looking up actors last night, they.

[Griffin Newman]

With you say what I want to say.

[J.D. Amato]

I think it is with the Matt Gats Gates of it all. The guy who paraglides into the. No, into the homes. His name. The actor's name is Marco Rubio. Are you serious? Yeah, but with an e. So Rubeo or whatever you.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow.

[J.D. Amato]

But it was just funny. I was like. I was like, what? What if it was actually.

[David Sims]

Anyways, it should be Marco Rubio.

[J.D. Amato]

Um, but I think it's. I think that's brilliant because also at that point you go from this character having this extremely low, low. This moment where this whole thing is falling apart, and then instead of feeling the panic and stress and the moral and ethical quandaries that this all. It's. It's blowing up instead. It is a victory lap. It is a. Wow, Kristoff, you are a.

[David Sims]

You did a great job. You've solved your problem. But then the next thing is Truman escaping, moving and just being gone.

[Griffin Newman]

I wanted to call out quickly, sorry, is there an actress named Una Damon who is like the woman in the main console board with Kristoff and Giamatti? And I was like, why does this woman look so familiar? And she basically has a career in the 90s and early 2000s of constantly being the woman who stares at a screen and explains to the audience what's going on in like, Gattaca and Deep Rising and Deep Impact Act. But the big thing why she's stuck in my brain is she is the person who explains the spider in Spider man, and that is the tour guide who goes like, 27 radioactive spiders.

[J.D. Amato]

That's funny. Well, the reason I was on IMDb is because they have the call in section there and one of the callers is like, I forget the question. But it's like hey, how do you do with it? And it's like the voice is so unactorly. And I was like, that's someone. And then I looked it up, and he's the editor on the movie. So clearly it was. Was a scratch track that they're like, let's just keep that in.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah. But yes, basically, from the moment Kristoff has taken his victory lap, Truman, unbeknownst to them, has perfectly planned his escape.

[David Sims]

He knows. They think that he's not believing the. The dad thing.

[Griffin Newman]

They think they've reset the board. I love the moment with Giamatti and the other guy where they're watching him talk to the mirror and they're like, oh, he knows the camera's here. No, he's back to normal. He's playing the role. He's doing a bit. He says he's talking to the neighbors.

[David Sims]

That one's after the thing. He goes like, that one's for free or whatever. Like, it's like he. Yeah, he's.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, but it's. He's towing the line just enough that they don't need to flag it to Kristoff. But we.

[David Sims]

Right. But we barely see anything because then it's just. He's sleeping. No. Yeah. Yeah. And then. And then what I love is the no Truman section. Cue the sun, the moon turning into a spotlight. The. The actors just patrolling like. Just like the reality of the world

[Griffin Newman]

completely falling apart, arm in arm, all just, like, marching. Like.

[Ben Hosley]

The twins are, like, so, so mean.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I love those.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, because there's also. There's a version of this, right, where. Great escape version of it where we see Truman escaping and we see him hatching his plan. We see him pull it off.

[David Sims]

Totally.

[J.D. Amato]

And you don't.

[David Sims]

No. He dug a tunnel. He figured out the tape recorder thing, like. Yeah, right.

[J.D. Amato]

And the big narrative shift that's happened is the first hour. We're seeing the experience from the POV of Truman. The moment we do the Kristoff interview till the end. We are now seeing the experience from Kristoff.

[Griffin Newman]

We're inside the moon, looking down at Truman.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. And I. I think. Think it's. I mean, both in terms of how they shot it and how, like, the. The moon turning into a spotlight, obviously, is great. That the moment of turn on the sun is like such a beautiful, iconic moment of that, you know, just like.

[David Sims]

So.

[J.D. Amato]

And that. That shot, how they got, you know, like, just like. Oh, that's a practical effect. They are. They are moving a light on a crane past it you know what I mean? It's like, it's so cool to see. Yeah. And the fact that all the actors are arm in arm and it's like, like it, it feels like Disneyland where the ride is shut down, you know what I mean?

[Ben Hosley]

Earlier in the movie too, they show a model that's so important to give you a sense of the geography because when he then tries to escape, you understand that, right?

[J.D. Amato]

Like, there's nowhere to go. There's nowhere to go.

[Griffin Newman]

And they say in the Harry Shearer thing that it's the only man made structure or one of only three man made structures. It's. It's the Great Wall of China and the Truman Dome, basically. Or the only two.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, it's fascinating. And then the fact that they're walking around and then that's where you start seeing, seeing the masks drop a lot of these actors and you start seeing. I love the fact that Emmerich, basically, you can tell he's kind of like stage manager, that they've sort of entrusted him. I'm sure he gets a producer credit on the show in some way because like they're talking to him as though he is like the problem solver, boots on the ground guy. And then I also love that you get that moment where they're all trying to find Truman. And then you have both the mom and dad. Dad having this moment.

[David Sims]

He'll listen to me.

[J.D. Amato]

Having this moment of vanity where the mom is like, well, if, surely if I say his name.

[David Sims]

Griffin mentioned this, I feel like, yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

And then I love that the dad chimes in too. And you can, you know, he's newly back in the cast, but now he's so proud of himself and he's like, truman boy. And you're like, oh my God, these people are disgusting.

[David Sims]

Well, and they try the three things. They look for him, then they find he's on the boat.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

They do the weather, they try that to scare him.

[Ben Hosley]

And the crew, though, is disgusted. Kristoff is pushing it way too far. But even Giamatti's character at once point earlier, he's looking at the classified section.

[David Sims]

He's done with. He hates cuz he's sl. He's quietly training the guy where he's, when he's sitting eating the pizza, he's like, cut to this. And then Kristoff shows up and he. Gian has this little bit of lines where he's like, I was just trying to get him ready, you know, and it's clear, like, oh, he's on the way out he's sick of this.

[J.D. Amato]

And Kristoff comes in and is like, I want to review the footage for the big insurance conference tomorrow. The, the, the camera angles or whatever. And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then what I also like about that storm, section number one, we are in a world where practical water effects are less and happening less and less. Right.

[Ben Hosley]

Sure.

[David Sims]

They shot this in a tank. Like I said. They almost drowned Jim Carrey because they misinterpreted his I'm in distress signal, which was a closed fist. They thought he was just acting. Carry on.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes, but I, I, but it's beautiful to see because it, it, there's, there's, there is a, an animal part of our brain that. Seeing water like that, like, there's something beautiful and captivating about it and wind and all that stuff together.

[David Sims]

I just love Kristoff's godhood melting away. Like, where he's like, oh, well, I'll scare him with the water. Like, harder, harder. And then he realizes, like, oh, this is now just down to do I kill him or not?

[Griffin Newman]

Cuz Truman would rather die. Exactly. Than not know the answer.

[J.D. Amato]

Right, Right. And I love.

[David Sims]

But then he tries his last thing, which is saying, like, what if I just told you that you are safer here? Like, yes, you have to believe the outside world.

[Griffin Newman]

Outside world. I care about you.

[J.D. Amato]

The also thing that I think is important is that he tells Giamatti to turn it up. And Gati doesn't do it.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he does it.

[J.D. Amato]

Kristoff does it. Which is, I think I, It's a small thing, but I'm like, it's important that Kristoff is the one. And it's like everyone else is at this point. Like, hey, just.

[Griffin Newman]

I think G literally says there's nothing left to do but kill him. Like, or something like that. Like, if I turn it up anymore.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're right.

[David Sims]

Perfect image of the sky turning into a painting. Like the edge of the wall where it just looks a little shitty.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, the end of the ship puncturing through.

[J.D. Amato]

It's all I just want to say to that end.

[Griffin Newman]

The ship, the boat.

[J.D. Amato]

This is a film that I think has like six or seven, like, iconic images.

[Griffin Newman]

Agreed.

[J.D. Amato]

That are just, they're, they're ingrained into film history of just like perfect, beautiful storytelling images. Is so for the. I made a list of us watching it. It raining just on him is the first one that I think is like, totally. And then the multiple shots, whether it's them on the pier, on the beach with the Friend. And it's like the beautiful sunsets and they're talking. I think those are so just sort of like connected to this movie. The moment when he stops the traffic is like, you know, that's like an iconic.

[David Sims]

Doing this with the bus.

[J.D. Amato]

It's incredible. Kristoff watching Truman sleep, I think is such a beautiful. When he goes up and he hands. It's like that. It's so of that era that I love it. And then of course, this, the.

[David Sims]

What if you went to the end of the world?

[J.D. Amato]

Oh my God.

[David Sims]

And it was a wall and you

[Griffin Newman]

walk up the stairs.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[J.D. Amato]

And what I love is, I think when so much of cinema storytelling, right, is that you're. You're trying to create these stories and this context so you can have an image that in of itself is abstract, but that because you watch this entire movie, it has all of this meaning and that it becomes a haiku that represents that entire story. That just the image of the, the, the, the bow of a ship cracking through the edge of a. Of reality. That's. That's the entire story of the Truman Show. That one shot tells the entire story of the Truman Show.

[Ben Hosley]

Okay, now, I don't, I don't want to change. Oh, sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I just, I'm sorry, I need to call out. There's one important iconic image that David would probably add to that list. Terry Camilleri in the bathtub watching the Truth.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that's some big bathtub action.

[Ben Hosley]

Now, I don't want to change the movie. I think it's great.

[David Sims]

But I do kind of feel like

[Ben Hosley]

it would have been cool if instead of poking through, he just sailed into whiteness. Kind of like Looney Tunes style, like going on the.

[J.D. Amato]

You know, or the way he got

[David Sims]

out was that he drew a big tunnel.

[Griffin Newman]

The tunnel, and a train came through. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

Or if the sailboat took off into the air and started flying into the sky and then everyone waves as Truman flies away in the.

[David Sims]

What have you sent us, you monster?

[J.D. Amato]

Okay, so what I sent you is from the Paramount lot, my parking spot for the past when I was running.

[David Sims]

Okay, Mr. Parking Spot got his own parking spot.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, when you're the showrunner of a late night show that only exists for a year and a half that CBS

[David Sims]

is eager to keep.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. So my parking spot was in the tank, which is. Now there's. It's interesting because there's, there's conflicting reports as to whether they shot it in the Paramount tank or the Universal backlot. The. All the official reports say it was Paramount, but people claim it was Universal. And then in an interview I was reading with the dp, he referred to the Universal lot. But Paramount has it on their tour and all of the things online, you're Will. It'll. People will correct and say that's Paramount. So I'm going to say that it was Paramount. But. So every day I would drive into work and I would park beneath the wall where Truman escaped. And it was, you know, this is my first time working at a lot like this. And it was, you know, one of the fun perks of that job was getting to have that lot experience and feeling like, you know, you're, you're in the movie biz, you're in the TV biz. So anyways, those are photos of my parking spot.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you were. It was so cool. I mean, you. I talked to you on the phone sometimes when you were like walking the Paramount lot. And I always thought the Paramount lot's so cool. Like, it's like one of the true classic, like old school movie lots.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. And what's funny is, you know, I think originally they're talking about where they're going to shoot the film and they looked at all the. Lots of all the different studios to see could we shoot it in some of those studio lots. And they're originally going to. And then they found Seaside or whatever. But yeah, I would, I would, when I was stressed out, wanted to talk to my friends, I would call. I think I've. I've talked to all of you and I know, David, I, I remember walking through the, the backlot and describing the fake New York City because our offices were right across.

[David Sims]

I said, I know. Well, because it's been used in so many things.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, it was very, it was very surreal. A funny story that I can tell now because I'll never be back there again, was that our staff was an amazing staff of people who love to have a good time time. And multiple times we had staff members get sent to Paramount Jail for. We would all go hang out in the fake New York City. And you weren't allowed to do that. And so we had multiple members of our staff that got taken to Paramount Jail for various reasons. And we had to go, like, free them. Yeah, you had to be like, no, they're. No, we need them. No, they're necessary staff. You can't ban them from Paramount forever.

[David Sims]

Trying to think of who from Paramount would defend Paramount Jail. You know, who's on the mountain? Griffin.

[Griffin Newman]

Who's on the mountain? John Luke Picard, Eric Hartman, spongebob and

[J.D. Amato]

one of the Transformers.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah. I'd say probably Bumblebee.

[J.D. Amato]

They had a big bumblebee there.

[Griffin Newman]

Someone from Yellowstone. There'd be a Dutton.

[J.D. Amato]

And then of course, the tean man himself, TC Cruise control. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Would it be all of his characters together? Would you pick one as a representative?

[J.D. Amato]

I think it's him as a human man. Yeah, I think that's his actual character.

[David Sims]

All right, so, wow.

[J.D. Amato]

We got to a point where Ben is wrapping us up. You know, you're in uncharted territory when Ben is wrapping things up.

[Griffin Newman]

Just saying, like, for how great.

[David Sims]

When Mr.

[J.D. Amato]

Slow Christmas himself is quiet.

[Griffin Newman]

Quiet.

[David Sims]

As the crispy chicken sandwich from 7 11. People always call me loud and I'm. I'm like, yeah, I know I'm crispy.

[Griffin Newman]

Did you expect me to whisper?

[David Sims]

If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect. Look, I know I'm a handful. I'm bold, I'm juicy.

[Griffin Newman]

Throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me and baby, I'm a whole meal. And with seven rewards, I'm just $4 quiet, no crispy, saucy, and $4 very only at 711 Valley through 6, 23, 26 participating stores only while supplies lastly app for full terms.

[David Sims]

No. The film ends with good afternoon, good night. I mean, is there anything you guys want to say about the. The Truman's closing triumph before we talk about the reactions to this?

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's just great that it you. I to mirror what you said earlier, that you are cross cutting between him and then the.

[David Sims]

The viewers and.

[Griffin Newman]

And then working Natasha Melon in really closely cutting to her intermittently. But it starts to become almost like an unknowing conversation between the two of them and her, like, rooting for him.

[Ben Hosley]

You see the bar that we keep cutting to? It's like packed now.

[Griffin Newman]

Tub man and the security guards, you're like coming back to all your established people.

[J.D. Amato]

Tub Man.

[Ben Hosley]

We love Tubman.

[Griffin Newman]

That they like, love that, like even unknowingly, Truman understands how to end the show, right? That he, like, understands the most kind of like dramatically poignant, kind of like concise narrative closure.

[David Sims]

What if it turned out they switched to another channel? That's like a shittier Truman show where they're like, yeah, it's like six warehouses in Louisiana. This is like the gym show. And it's like he kind of knows it's a TV show. We've done our best the gym show.

[J.D. Amato]

And Jim's kind of aware of it. And that was kind of like there's

[David Sims]

like, knockoff Truman shows anyway.

[Ben Hosley]

He just plays paintball all the day shooting people.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, according to Jim. Now this just sounds like.

[J.D. Amato]

I mean we're getting towards what YouTube is.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, right.

[David Sims]

Pretty much.

[Ben Hosley]

You're right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. No, I just think it's great that he's walk through the door that we don't see anything of what is beyond that frame for him. And then it's just like. It's an obvious joke, but it is the only way to end the movie is just people going what else is on?

[David Sims]

Yeah, of course. But it's a great. It's perfectly perfect. It's perfect because it's just flat top.

[Griffin Newman]

The guy from flat top Dick Tracy film.

[David Sims]

I don't understand how this film did not get a nomination at the Academy Awards for best picture.

[Griffin Newman]

It gets three nominations.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, that's a big year for movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Movies.

[David Sims]

It's a big year for movies. But I'll tell you who got best picture.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. Who will be like, what are the nominations?

[David Sims]

So Truman's gets three nominations as Griff said.

[Griffin Newman]

Director, screenplay.

[David Sims]

Correct. And. And supporting actor.

[J.D. Amato]

What are the best picture knobs then?

[David Sims]

I'll tell you in one second. But I just want to say that this film got no craft nominations is pretty insane.

[J.D. Amato]

That's wild.

[David Sims]

It's like a pretty like high level craft accomplishment and just things like editing and spot, you know, like.

[J.D. Amato]

Well, I think weirdly there was obviously the like like I think there's a spillover distaste for TV at the time maybe.

[David Sims]

I think obviously the Carrie was snubbed. Was like a huge story. He won the Golden Globe. Wasn't even nominated. I don't know who snuck in, but I guess it was Nick Nolte. It's a fairly strong everywhere. Don't mind me.

[Griffin Newman]

It felt like a classic not yet

[J.D. Amato]

real Bath Hunter behavior.

[Griffin Newman]

But I mean like Jim Carrey refused to let you have. Have everything.

[David Sims]

It was a. You can't just right be a movie star end an Oscar like. But it's like crazy because of what a cultural like smash the movie was. The five actor nominees are Roberta Bernini for Life is Beautiful.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, which.

[David Sims]

Who wins? Which it's like in. In retrospect that's obviously all just really silly. But he was gonna.

[J.D. Amato]

When he won't do the exact same bit I was about to do the exact.

[David Sims]

I accept tastefully the stage normal.

[J.D. Amato]

I was gonna say. Yeah. But of course he. When he won he just walked up like a normal person.

[David Sims]

I simply have one to do things to say.

[Griffin Newman]

I was gonna say when he won he planted his feet on the ground and kept them there. Exactly. Took one floor, step at a time.

[David Sims]

Tom Hanks and Saving Private ryan and Ian McKellen and gods and Monsters, which

[Griffin Newman]

was obviously who should have won of them.

[David Sims]

Great performance in his shoeing and you know, sort of like tomorrow time for Ian McKellen to get recognized. Edward Norton in American History X, which is a very big visceral performance from a big young actor. And then Nalty and Affliction, who I feel like is the one a little bit. Best picture, Shakespeare in Love wins. Obviously it's controversial in its own right. Great movie, though. And a big hit beat.

[Griffin Newman]

Saving Private Ryan.

[David Sims]

Saving Private Ryan, the Thin Red Line, which it's kind of rocks that it got a bunch of Oscars because it's a masterpiece. Life is written. Oh, okay, okay. Like, that's one of those things where I'm like, I don't like that movie. I can at least understand the. The spell that was cast.

[Griffin Newman]

It was a phenomenon, you know, by

[David Sims]

Harvey and it's a Holocaust film and yet there's nothing like it. And the fifth one is Elizabeth, which is a movie I think is pretty good. Like, it's a pretty good British costume drama with a good performance. But you're like, what crack was being smoked that they were like, I think Elizabeth needs to make them five.

[Griffin Newman]

Also like show is in like, like psych textbooks for the rest of.

[David Sims]

Yeah. And like made 200 million. Like, it's just like, what the are we doing?

[J.D. Amato]

This is maybe the first Oscars that I watched and like tracked as a kid.

[David Sims]

Right. Sure. Makes sense.

[J.D. Amato]

Because the Truman show is a movie because it might be. The Truman show might be the first movie that I was like, oh, I know that movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I think that sometimes, weirdly, the academy has a hive mind and we'll talk about them like they're one person when obviously it's a bunch of disparate voters. But you think more of the, like the hive mind of the highest level people in Hollywood deciding how they communicate to the public what represents them. And. And Carrie just being a. Like, this guy kind of came out of nowhere. He wasn't selected. He runs the industry. And now he wants to be serious too.

[David Sims]

Right. He was in stupid movies basically up until this year. I'm sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

He pays our bills, but we refuse to treat him seriously. And the noms that the Oscars give it feel backhand handed towards Harry, where

[David Sims]

they think Peter Weir in the script were great. Peter, obviously Ed carried all.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's like Peter Weir did A good job toning Jim Carrey down. The screenplay was a good concept and Ed Harris grounded the film. Jim Carrey is just kind of like they. They treated him almost like he was like a. An animal performer where it's like they somehow tricked him into being a little bit normal. But you look at the other bodies and it like. It wins actor, supporting actor and score at the Golden Globes. They nominate it for picture Director, Screenplay. The BAFTAs nominates it for film director, supporting actor, screenplay, cinematography, production design, special effects. It wins director, screenplay, and production design. Like, everyone was kind of more generous to it than the Oscars, who felt like, don't tell us. We have to treat this seriously.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And also that it was partially like, it's a big summer hit. And all the critics are sort of going like, is Jim Carrey going to win an Oscar? And they're like, don't fucking tell us. Don't make up our mind for us.

[David Sims]

The film opened June 5, 1998. Number one at the box office. $31 million. Big, big hit. Makes 264 million worldwide.

[Griffin Newman]

How much did it make domestic?

[David Sims]

130 something. Yeah, 125. A lot of money in 1995. Eight big hit. Number two at the box office is also new this week. It's a thriller for grownups. Our friend Sean Clemens was just texting us about it.

[Griffin Newman]

Our friend. I. I'm not up to date on the tax.

[David Sims]

So crazy to me.

[J.D. Amato]

We think Truman showed be direct to Apple TV in 2026.

[David Sims]

Don't even talk about it. I'll kill myself right now.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, announce it tomorrow.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Truman showed 14 part peacock come right

[Griffin Newman]

in the first season.

[J.D. Amato]

Hold up.

[David Sims]

Being born, Peacock is now straight to come. It's just when you come, you see it in the come. I've been broadcasting for three hours.

[J.D. Amato]

I just like the silence we all gave David to work that out.

[David Sims]

You know, it's just like, what if we could put TV on to vomit? L. Anytime anyone vomits, they watch an ad. Like, you know what I mean?

[Griffin Newman]

Guys, we spent six or seven years trying to get people to sign up and pay money for Peacock. And they're not not biting. So give it to them for free in their comp. We're buying ball real estate.

[J.D. Amato]

What is this?

[Griffin Newman]

It's like the YouTube album. Don't worry about it.

[David Sims]

It's free.

[Griffin Newman]

You can get so depressed by the

[J.D. Amato]

state of modern media. But how do we make money? Well, every time they vomit, we show them an ad.

[David Sims]

That's what I'm saying. That was My joke, It's free in

[J.D. Amato]

the come, but when you vomit, you

[David Sims]

see, I, I will say this about number two at the box office.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a thriller.

[David Sims]

I, it, I would say somewhat of a forgotten movie. It's a remake of a classic. You know, it has movie stars in it or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

The Jackal?

[David Sims]

No, it's just one of those movies where like, I don't think anyone really remembers this one. It made $70 million domestically, 128 worldwide. Like for a pretty forgotten movie. Now I had a big star and the big star, the, the big male star is someone who knows his way around to sort of grown up thriller.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not a forward. It's not a big male star.

[J.D. Amato]

I mean. Mr. McFeely, wow,

[David Sims]

that was pretty good. It was better than my cum thing. Thing.

[Griffin Newman]

No, the clown thing's good.

[David Sims]

The big female star is going to win an Oscar this year.

[Griffin Newman]

She's gonna win an Oscar.

[David Sims]

She's on the up and up. And this is her big star year.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a Helen Hunt.

[David Sims]

Nope.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no. It's the year before. It's Gwyneth.

[David Sims]

Year after Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a perfect murder.

[David Sims]

A perfect murder.

[Griffin Newman]

You're right. I did catch those.

[David Sims]

Which is an Andrew Davis remake of Hitchcock's Dial in for Murder.

[Griffin Newman]

I always forget.

[David Sims]

It's a remake with, with Michael Douglas, Gwyneth Paltrow, and a youngish Viggo Morris Mortensen. I say youngish because he actually had been around for a while. But you know, but it's just one of those things. You're like, no one remembers that. I'm like, kind of made money like. Wild. Number three of the box office is a film that I'm sure we all, as children were very excited about. And maybe we enjoyed it. Maybe we were disappointed. I was pretty into it.

[Griffin Newman]

Summer 98.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Big, big, big, big blockbuster.

[Griffin Newman]

It's. It's a big hit. It does hit. It works.

[David Sims]

It was a hit. I think it's pretty quickly recognized as not big enough of a hit, but it made $136 million domestically, close to 400 worldwide.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not Batman and Robin. No, that's the only seven disappointment.

[David Sims]

It's the latest. It's a reboot. Ish of a franchise, I guess, sort of.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not Godzilla.

[J.D. Amato]

It is.

[David Sims]

It is Godzilla.

[Griffin Newman]

It is Godzilla. Yeah. It is a movie I watch basically every five years and go, am I gonna like it this time?

[David Sims]

And you go, it's kind of like, it's okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I, I. There are things about it, some fun that I really like in its jankiness. And I have such a roll in Emmerich's soft spot. But I always go, like, has the nostalgia cycle hit where I'll just appreciate everything in its brokenness for just representing this time? And some of it is so insane.

[J.D. Amato]

That's a movie that I remember. I, I can see me watching it on my TV with my mom and my sister.

[David Sims]

Totally.

[J.D. Amato]

And me questioning how Godzilla's size keeps changing so much. It is throughout the film.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow. It's one of many problems.

[David Sims]

He's like, sometimes he's skyscraper size, sometimes he's much smaller. It's very strange.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[J.D. Amato]

It's also sometimes he's like a man.

[David Sims]

Also, he's a sheep. She.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. That's the great Matthew Broder performance where he's, like, testing all the. The blood samples they got, and they're like, so, what do you know about him? And they're like, well, he's 8,000ft tall, he weighs 400 pounds, and he's pregnant.

[David Sims]

Ben, do you like Godzilla?

[Griffin Newman]

Big

[David Sims]

thank you.

[J.D. Amato]

Ben's lost it.

[David Sims]

Fourth at the box office is a movie about girls.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, I'm listening.

[David Sims]

Sort of a, you know, chick flick, classic chick flick. It's a romantic drama. It's.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not How Stella Got Her Groove Back.

[David Sims]

No, that's a good movie. I would say. This movie I've never seen. It's got an interesting director, in a way, an actor.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not Hope Floats.

[David Sims]

It is hopeful.

[Griffin Newman]

It is hope. Do you know who directed Hope floats? Harry Connick Jr. Ben, J.D. do either of you want to wager guess as to who directed Hope Floats?

[Ben Hosley]

No, I don't.

[David Sims]

I'll tell you. It's the guy who directed Waiting to Exhale.

[Griffin Newman]

Still, it's the same director, you're saying? Yes. Does that solve anything for either of you?

[J.D. Amato]

It doesn't hit me.

[Griffin Newman]

He was fired off of directing the Fat Albert movie.

[Ben Hosley]

Bill Cosby.

[David Sims]

No. Bye. Bill Cosby, sort of.

[Griffin Newman]

He did rebound by directing First Daughter, the Katie Holmes presents Daughter comedy.

[J.D. Amato]

Of course.

[David Sims]

Crazy.

[Griffin Newman]

Forest Whitaker.

[David Sims]

Forest Whitaker. Forest Whitaker.

[Griffin Newman]

Just.

[J.D. Amato]

I had directed all of those movies.

[David Sims]

You know, a side career directing, like, you know, pretty good, kind of female centric, like, romantic dramas.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, it felt like he's like, steady studio hand. He gets fired off of Fat Albert, keep bringing this up, and it's like, oh, is his directing career kind of over? And then just like, wins an Oscar for Best Actor for idiom in getting a fart pushed out of his body.

[David Sims]

And also, he. He was in Rogue One.

[J.D. Amato]

Great career. Enviable. Enviable.

[David Sims]

Hope Floats is number four. So that one. It's like Sandra Bullock is a housewife, and then her mean husband reveals that he's cheating on her on, like, Ricky Lake. Like, a Ricky Lake show. And so she goes to her small town where she grew up, and she's got this old friend, like, Harry Connick Jr. And, like, are they gonna fall in love? You know?

[Griffin Newman]

And she's got, like, a big box, a hope in the basement. And she's like, this. I gotta get rid of this. So she goes to the river, and she's like, I'm just gonna throw this over.

[David Sims]

I will say to the bottom, I love Sandra Bullock. It feels like one of those movies where I'm like, that thing could have made twice as much money if you didn't call it Hope Floats. Yeah, like, there's got to be a better title out there.

[J.D. Amato]

This is also that era, like, you're saying, where there's all these movies that you're like, have you ever heard of this movie? It's like, no. It's like, well, it made 170.

[Griffin Newman]

What was the final total?

[David Sims]

It made 60 domestic. It made 181 worldwide.

[Griffin Newman]

It has a terrible title. And the poster was just, here is Sandra Bullock, and people are like, that's worth testing out.

[David Sims]

A hug from conic is the 26.

[J.D. Amato]

Conic embrace is the 2026 equivalent of, like, these, like, YouTube channels that you're like, you've never heard of it, but has 4 billion followers. Like, sure.

[David Sims]

I don't know.

[J.D. Amato]

Bubby man has 4 million followers, and

[Griffin Newman]

he like, well, no, Bubby Man's earning those followers. He's put in the work.

[David Sims]

Number five at the box office is another big blockbuster that also, like, slightly disappointed.

[Griffin Newman]

Slightly disappointed.

[David Sims]

Directed by a woman.

[Griffin Newman]

Not a lot of those. Is it Deep Impact?

[David Sims]

Deep Impact.

[Griffin Newman]

I would say that didn't disappoint. It's just that Armageddon ate its lunch.

[David Sims]

Armageddon ate its lunch. I think it did okay. It made 140 domestic, Mike. You know, I think that was seen as, like, maybe it's the Armageddon thing of, like. Okay, you know, like, there was. It's not fair to compare them.

[Griffin Newman]

There was a feeling that could compare

[David Sims]

them because they are kind of the same thing.

[Griffin Newman]

I think there was a feeling that one of them would flop. They couldn't both succeed.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you're right. That it did totally good.

[Griffin Newman]

Deep Impacted. Well, and then Armageddon came in. And Big Dog.

[David Sims]

I. I kind of like Deep. I told Mimi when I interviewed her that it was kind of, like, important to me as sort of a different kind of movie because it's very emotional.

[J.D. Amato]

I don't remember the difference between Deep Impact and Armageddon.

[David Sims]

The big difference is that obviously, Armageddon feels like it was written by monkeys doing coke. But beyond that, Armageddon.

[J.D. Amato]

Armageddon is Bruce Willis. Yes. What's the story of Deep Impact, though? I forget. So you know what? We don't have to get into the story of Deep Impact. We're.

[David Sims]

I keep trying to say it, and everyone is just. I could just do it. It. Armageddon is. There's an asteroid coming. We need to deal with it. And obviously, the best way to do that is to hire drillers who yell at each other.

[J.D. Amato]

That's Deep Impact.

[David Sims]

No, that's Armageddon.

[J.D. Amato]

That's what I thought.

[David Sims]

Yes. Deep Impact has this much more like, weird unfolding where it's like. It's about a journalist who's on a story of a presidential coverup that she thinks is an affair. And it turns out it's like, no, we've realized an asteroid is going to blow up the Earth, and we are basically trying to figure out how to evacuate a million people underground.

[J.D. Amato]

Got it. Okay.

[David Sims]

And then they do sort of stop it. But in Deep Impact, the asteroid hits.

[J.D. Amato]

Got it.

[David Sims]

In Armageddon, spoiler alert.

[J.D. Amato]

It does not.

[David Sims]

Also in the top 10, you got the Horse Whisperer. You've got Bulworth, Warren Beatty's Bulworth, a

[Griffin Newman]

movie I love and I hope we get to talk about.

[David Sims]

We're going to cover it someday. It's a movie that I have a lot of fondness for. I watched it, like, you know, within the last five years and was like, okay, some notes.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I am sure.

[David Sims]

So.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I'm sure it's pissing on a bunch of third rails. Yeah.

[David Sims]

But, you know, glad it exists.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

What was the song from it? Ghetto Superstar. I've never even seen the movie. The only reason why I know of it.

[Griffin Newman]

The whole soundtrack is great.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Number eight is Titanic. Titanic heard about still in June, still came out in December.

[Griffin Newman]

So this. Yes. Seven months in Number nine is.

[David Sims]

Oh, hell yeah. A movie that should be remade instantly. Me, the crime comedy film. I Got the Hookup starring Master P. I. I have not seen. I don't think ever in full, but I've seen some of it on tv. I think we need to bring back. I Got the hookup. Number 10, the animated film Quest for Camelot. Which one is that? Which studio is.

[Griffin Newman]

That's Warner Brothers trying to break Warner Brothers run that bomb so hard that Iron Giant is basically told like, you're. You're the last one. We're closing up shop. It's like. Like they found it.

[David Sims]

He's like, but this one's good.

[Griffin Newman]

And they're like closing Quest for Camelot is like them very much trying to do the Disney model and have like big ballads and emotional romance story in front of a backdrop. But then funny animal characters. Then it's like Iron Giant is him trying to do this thing off to the side. And then I think Osmosis Jones is truly the last one, but is only half animated because it did too well.

[David Sims]

Cosmos is just pulled too many trees.

[J.D. Amato]

Truths. Yeah.

[David Sims]

About the cops that live in our body.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. I. I watched that 2026. Like that is like what a lot of our society believes is happening.

[David Sims]

It's true. We have to stop. Chris Rock lives in my body. He's a policeman.

[Griffin Newman]

RFK is gonna enforce one viewing of Osmosis Jones to every American subs.

[David Sims]

Did you just say you watched it recently?

[Griffin Newman]

I did.

[David Sims]

And how was it?

[Griffin Newman]

It is very odd.

[David Sims]

I remember that the animated stuff is pretty cool.

[J.D. Amato]

I would agree with.

[David Sims]

And that the live action stuff is pretty dreadful.

[Griffin Newman]

The live action stuff is like repellent. There is Bill Murray because it's mostly Bill Murray burping.

[David Sims]

Being like. Well, it feels like Chris Rock's in here. Feels like a buddy comedy's happening in my digestion.

[J.D. Amato]

Half the movie is like an animated movie. The other half is like footage of a sick man.

[Griffin Newman]

Basically the grossest man who ever. He works. Correct. Right. Chris Elliot.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And his daughter cares about his health and he won't listen to her. Her. And he's eating a hard boiled egg. And he's by the monkey cage trying to feed them. And then the egg slips out of his hand. It falls into the cage. He reaches in the cage to pick it up. He takes it out. It's covered in like monkey hair and like dirt and bacteria. And he's like, it's still good. And he eats it. And that's the inciting incident of Osmosis Jones. Is that's what makes him sick? And it is. It is grosser than anything that John Waters has ever put on film. Film. It is the most repellent thing I have ever seen. And the movie is just. Yeah. It's very bizarre. But I was. I was like gonna do. Scott hasn't seen and Aukerman sent me the list of movies to choose from, and I was like, osmosis Jones is on here. I did weirdly watch it in the last 48 hours, but I can't tell if I would not be able to contain my thoughts to four hours or if I will run out after five minutes.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, right where you're like, yeah, it's like what you think it is.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah. Osmosis Jones.

[David Sims]

Yep. My favorite movie of all time. I'm glad we finally mentioned it.

[Ben Hosley]

Finally.

[J.D. Amato]

This. This was the Osmosis. Osmosis Jones series.

[David Sims]

Yeah, this is the Osmosis Jones series. We will do Osmosis Jones if we ever do the Farley Brothers.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Because they did direct the live action

[Griffin Newman]

portions, and part of their contract was that the animation director wouldn't get credited

[J.D. Amato]

as director, which I think is good.

[Griffin Newman]

They are the only directors on the movie, even though they came on and shot one week, eight months after the animation was locked. It's insane that, like, the whole structure of that movie was we only have to animate half a movie, and then when we have the animation, we'll shop it around and try to get a fancy live action director to agree to do the other part. Osmosis Jones.

[David Sims]

Osmosis Jones.

[Griffin Newman]

J.D.

[David Sims]

your book is called the Endless Game and it is available. Is there anything else you would like to plug on this podcast? Podcast?

[J.D. Amato]

No, that's it.

[David Sims]

I mean, one half hours into its running time.

[J.D. Amato]

No, I. I would really like people to buy the Endless Game for child in their lives. It's a really fun book. It's based loosely on my. You know, I moved around a lot as a kid, and it's about a kid who moves around a lot and ends up in a town where every kid in the town is part of a game of capture the flag that's been going on for 80 years, been passed down from generation to generation. And so this. This entire universe unfolding where kids sort of have to find their role within this game. I think it's a fun story. Story, and I think kids will like it. I'd love. I'd love for y' all to read it.

[David Sims]

There's a link in the description.

[J.D. Amato]

Thank you. And watch the Undercovers on Amazon Prime Sports.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah, do watch that.

[J.D. Amato]

It's its own little Truman show, in a way.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Tune in next week for Mastering Commander.

[David Sims]

That's right.

[Griffin Newman]

It is wild.

[J.D. Amato]

I watched it for the first time.

[David Sims]

You're right.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It's Mando Next week.

[David Sims]

Oh, boy.

[J.D. Amato]

This. This is a wild one two punch for weeks then.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, gethard coming on.

[J.D. Amato]

Oh my gosh. That's gonna be to talk Star wars, boy.

[David Sims]

Just looked at the running time and imagined a higher one.

[J.D. Amato]

That's a lot of podcast.

[Ben Hosley]

You should just get beds for our station.

[David Sims]

Or I think we can just have a break because, like, we can just be like, all right, and we'll check in with you guys tomorrow wherever you guys are at in the part. That part of the conversation that works, works.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a 12 hour day crossover.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah. That's wild. That's. That's a crazy one two punch of episodes here. I legit thought this was going to be a short episode because I'm like, it's a. There's so much to talk about, but it's not like a rambly movie. But I think we just love talking about it.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's a really good episode. I think we nailed it.

[David Sims]

I, I definitely thought this was gonna be a long episode. It's a big one.

[J.D. Amato]

Also, I was texting David. I watched Master and Commander for the first time. That is a great movie. I thought it was a different kind of movie. And I watched it and it's so good. I know you're going to talk all about it.

[Griffin Newman]

I have not seen it since theater and at the time I went, not my kind of movie. And so I'm very eager. I've been saving the rewatch, knowing that Weir was inevitable and that it's such a beloved David favorite.

[J.D. Amato]

I watch that now and I'm like, Weir is a master.

[Griffin Newman]

Tune in next week for the Mandalorian and Grogu. A movie we're so excited for.

[David Sims]

What if it's pretty enjoyable, I would

[Griffin Newman]

love nothing because, like, Jon Favreau tends

[David Sims]

to be okay at making a pretty movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I, I, here's my.

[David Sims]

I saw the trailer with my daughter in front of Hoppers.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And I was not like, wow, this looks awesome. But I was like, I mean, I guess they'll like fly a spaceship and baby Yoda will eat a cracker. Like, I guess it'll be okay before.

[Griffin Newman]

But every time I see that trailer, I am astounded by how nothing I feel. I'm not like, dreading it. I'm not like, this looks like shit. I'm just like, okay. And I, I saw Hoppers with David Erlich and his son. And Erlich just immediately went like, ugh. And his son starts pumping his fist.

[David Sims]

This.

[Griffin Newman]

And I'm like, oh. He, he literally points at the screen goes, star Wars. That's my favorite movie. And he's never seen Star wars in a theater before.

[J.D. Amato]

What if Mandalorian Grogu is that there's a. A transporter ride. You can take the jobless pass. Eight and a half minutes. And so it's just 10 trips, five trips up, five trips back.

[Griffin Newman]

That should be your Star wars movie.

[David Sims]

You pitch.

[J.D. Amato]

I actually

[Ben Hosley]

new movies over on Patreon a few days. We're going to be releasing an episode.

[David Sims]

Episode.

[Ben Hosley]

It's the final in our Mortal Kombat commentary series. We're going to be putting out an episode about the new Mortal Kombat 2.

[J.D. Amato]

I will say every Mortal Kombat movie is good.

[Griffin Newman]

Have you watched Annihilation recently?

[J.D. Amato]

Yes, I have. And is it not good? Yes. But is it also good? Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Annihilation is not so good.

[J.D. Amato]

I will say it's a rough one.

[David Sims]

With. With respect to all of the great.

[J.D. Amato]

I've talked about this before. The first Mortal Kombat ending is one of my favorite endings to a film of all time. And I think if every film ended like that, it would be perfect.

[Griffin Newman]

So you must love the opening of Mortal Kombat.

[J.D. Amato]

Annihilation starts right when you were a kid. That is all you want is for a cliffhanger to pick up right in the next movie.

[Griffin Newman]

That is a good point.

[Ben Hosley]

Anyway, go over to patreon.com blankcheck do it.

[J.D. Amato]

That's awesome.

[Griffin Newman]

And as always, good afternoon, good evening, and good night.

[Ben Hosley]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Simon. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our Associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithee. Research by JJ Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minna. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at blankcheckpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions. All right, I started rolling.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay. Are you gonna send it to me, Griff?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

And I trust your improv skills to make the necessary word substitutions.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes. I'm not gonna say the word, though. No, I'm gonna. You know what I mean? I'm not gonna say yes, but I. I'm not gonna say the P word.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, but like, replace like camera with microphone.

[J.D. Amato]

Yes, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly. Exactly, exactly, exactly.

[David Sims]

Great.

[Griffin Newman]

This is UCP training right here.

[David Sims]

Okay, where is this?

[J.D. Amato]

I like how we're acting like it's a secret. There's no nothing secret about it.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, I'm airdropping.

[J.D. Amato]

Except this is the actual script.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay. What pa. What page is that on?

[Griffin Newman]

Let's. Let's start on 105. Okay, ready?

[J.D. Amato]

No, I have to find page one. You sent me a hundred page document.

[Griffin Newman]

What's the original script?

[J.D. Amato]

Okay, do you want me to start in 105?

[Griffin Newman]

No, I'm starting.

[J.D. Amato]

Wait, who. Who's who?

[Griffin Newman]

You're Truman.

[J.D. Amato]

Why? You should be Truman.

[Griffin Newman]

You think I should be Truman?

[J.D. Amato]

Okay, because the whole thing. Okay, the whole thing is that you launch into the. Instead of good afternoon, evening, good morning, and good night, you launch into your thing. Okay, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, sure.

[J.D. Amato]

Do you need a minute to adjust?

[Griffin Newman]

No. Yeah, just give me one second.

[J.D. Amato]

I think there's also. I think there's a line for David in here too, or Ben, which is.

[Griffin Newman]

Is there a Giamatti in here?

[J.D. Amato]

Is that in the. In the actual edit, it cuts to someone watching TV watching it, and they're like, just do it. Just do it.

[David Sims]

I don't think that's too confusing. I think.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, let's. The visual element. Let's just do this.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay, great.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, ready? Hold on. I'm gonna reset. Should it be my name?

[J.D. Amato]

Oh, yeah, let's.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I just. It just hit me.

[J.D. Amato]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, ready?

[J.D. Amato]

Sorry. That's on me. Yeah, I up.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, it's. Sounds good.

[J.D. Amato]

Griffin. Griffin, you can speak. I can hear you.

[Griffin Newman]

Who are you?

[J.D. Amato]

I'm the creator.

[Griffin Newman]

Creator of what?

[J.D. Amato]

A show that gives hope and joy and inspiration to millions.

[Griffin Newman]

I take that again with podcast.

[J.D. Amato]

But it's a show.

[Griffin Newman]

Make a podcast.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay. Take it from the top.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay,

[J.D. Amato]

but I was not going to say the P word.

[Griffin Newman]

I think you have to if we're doing it.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay, fine, fine. Okay, sorry, guys. This is the artistic process at work. The actor becomes the director. Okay, Griffin. Griffin, you can speak. I can hear you.

[Griffin Newman]

Who are you?

[J.D. Amato]

I'm the creator.

[Griffin Newman]

Creator of what?

[J.D. Amato]

A podcast that gives hope and joy and inspiration to millions.

[Griffin Newman]

Millions? Sounds a little high. A podcast. And who am I?

[J.D. Amato]

You're the star. Or one of them.

[Griffin Newman]

Nothing was real. It was all bits.

[J.D. Amato]

No, you were real. That's what made you so good to listen to.

[Griffin Newman]

The eyes are everywhere. Our ears are not on video.

[J.D. Amato]

Listen to me, Griffin. You can leave if you want. I won't try to stop you. But you won't survive out there. You don't know what to do, where to go.

[Griffin Newman]

I have a dossier.

[J.D. Amato]

Truman, I've watched you your whole life.

[Griffin Newman]

Take that again.

[J.D. Amato]

Also, that's not in the actual movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm adding certain lines instead of Matt. What do you mean?

[J.D. Amato]

Oh, this whole section.

[Griffin Newman]

This is a movie.

[J.D. Amato]

They cut it.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, we'll just do.

[David Sims]

Okay, using this script may have been a mistake.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Griffin Newman]

What would you have suggested?

[J.D. Amato]

The IMDb?

[David Sims]

What was they just doing? The normal.

[Griffin Newman]

Is IMDb gonna have all of this?

[David Sims]

I have no idea, but I would assume yes.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Very quoted. Reset, Reset from the top.

[Griffin Newman]

Should I go to IMDb and try to find it yet?

[David Sims]

I. Let me find it for you right now. You could have just asked, probably.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, because you famously look it up and offer every week.

[David Sims]

I don't look it up and offer every week, but I'm sure I could. I have a computer right here, if you just ask.

[J.D. Amato]

Griffin sent a shooting script that has, like. It still has, like, Hopper in it.

[Griffin Newman]

I feel like usually they don't have.

[J.D. Amato]

They don't. I. I.

[David Sims]

Yes. I. I don't think they have all

[Griffin Newman]

of it back and forth.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I mean, they. Yeah, I mean, how many?

[J.D. Amato]

Well, least Ben has the. The cold clothes now. Yes, I do. For sure. Yeah.

[David Sims]

You guys just got to do what you got to do.

[Ben Hosley]

I.

[David Sims]

You're. You're. You're working off the shooting script, I guess. I know.

[J.D. Amato]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. I got it.

[J.D. Amato]

Is that okay? I was like. I was like, there's just lines in here that aren't. Didn't make the final edit of the movie.

[David Sims]

I mean, they wisely cut it down.

[J.D. Amato]

Exactly.

[David Sims]

Dramatically, weighty.

[J.D. Amato]

Exactly. Now, do we want to.

[Ben Hosley]

To start from the top or just pick up.

[J.D. Amato]

No, we're starting from the top.

[David Sims]

Start from page one.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's do the whole

[Ben Hosley]

Truman Show.

[Griffin Newman]

I got it. Okay. Just remember, Griffin, instead of Truman Podcast, instead of.

[J.D. Amato]

Yeah, okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, ready?