A New Best Novels of All-Time List, PRH's "Strong Business Performance, and More.

Summary

Book Riot – The Podcast

Episode: A New Best Novels of All-Time List, PRH’s "Strong Business Performance," and More
Hosts: Jeff O’Neal & Rebecca Schinsky
Date: May 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This week, Jeff and Rebecca unpack the latest in bookish news and industry happenings. The big stories: The Guardian’s new “100 Best Novels of All Time” crowdsourced project, Penguin Random House’s “strong business performance” report (and what that actually means), adaptation updates including exciting developments for Fourth Wing and The Midnight Library, and thoughts on recent and upcoming literary television events. The episode is rounded out with lively frontlist recommendations—one of which may be a “new book of the year” contender.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Guardian’s “100 Best Novels of All Time” List

(Starts ~01:53)

• List Structure & Methodology

  • The Guardian launches an all-time best novels list, using a crowdsourced, ballot-based process echoing the New York Times’ successful “Best Books of the 21st Century So Far.”
  • Rollout: 20 books a day, not anchoring to the 21st Century, open to all periods.
  • Unique interactive UI: readers can click to see who voted for each title and view contributors’ top picks.

• Comparisons and Early Observations

  • As of recording, “Heart of Darkness” by Joseph Conrad is the highest revealed (#41) with only 7 votes, highlighting the relatively small pool of contributors or cumulative votes.
  • Interesting divergences emerge between this and the NYT list—e.g., My Brilliant Friend (NYT #1) is just #51 for The Guardian.
  • American and UK differences: The Guardian’s list feels less US-centric.
  • Rabbit hole potential: “You can click on Salman Rushdie and see his top 10… it’s showing two of his ten. There’s rabbit hole potential here…” (Jeff, 03:14)
  • Notable picks: Housekeeping by Marilynne Robinson, “super American” but still on a UK-based list.

• Meta-List Comparison

  • Rebecca plans to pit the final Guardian 100 against their own “Zero to Well Read” contenders.
  • Jeff and Rebecca check their reading coverage—recent episodes covered Go Tell It on the Mountain, The Bluest Eye, Kindred, Parable of the Sower, among others.

• Lesser-known Inclusions

  • Nervous Conditions by Tsitsi Dangarembga appears—a surprise for both hosts.

“Never a bad time for a best hundred novels of all time. There’s never a good time or never a bad time for it.” — Jeff (05:58)

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2. Updates from Book Riot’s Patreon & Projects

(07:12)

• “Zero to Well Read” podcast: Most recent episodes feature The Great Gatsby (rerun) and Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer—highlighting the latter’s breakout from nonprofit publisher obscurity to 3 million+ copies sold.
• Announcing serial guided readalongs for Patreon subscribers, blending book club with English class vibes.

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3. Penguin Random House (“PRH”) Q1 Earnings

(13:49)

• PRH reports “strong business performance,” a phrase ripe for lampooning:

  “Rebecca, I like to think of us as delivering strong business performance.” — Jeff (14:07)

• Details behind the PR-speak:

  • Sales are down 100 million euros year-over-year, but certain strategic sales (RTL Netherlands) altered reporting, actually leading to increased comparable revenues.
  • Key sales drivers: The Correspondent (1.5 million copies), For the Fans: K-Pop Demon Hunters (1.6 million copies across several countries).
  • Success of reissues/tie-ins—especially with Wuthering Heights riding film adaptation momentum and multiple PRH editions flooding the market.
  • Musings on shelf-space domination—for books as for consumer brands:

    “You know how you go into the grocery store and there’s like 50 types of Crest.... The only purpose of that is so you buy Crest, any Crest, doesn’t matter what.” — Jeff (18:00)

• Meta-commentary: Extended comic riff on packaging, deodorant, and Costco as analogs for publishing strategies.

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4. Adaptation News Galore

(20:18)

a. Fourth Wing Series at Amazon

(20:18–27:17)

• Amazon officially orders Fourth Wing as a series, produced by Michael B. Jordan’s Outlier Society, but Rebecca still cautious:

  “I’ll believe it when I see casting… this is news this week because it’s upfront season…” — Rebecca (21:03)

• No script, casting, or director yet; this is “upfronts PR,” not production proper.
• Discussion—Amazon’s Project Hail Mary movie boost may have made execs more bullish on book adaptations.
• Caution: Ongoing series, inevitable Game of Thrones-style deadline pressures, and details about Rebecca Yarros’ creative involvement.

b. The Midnight Library Adaptation

(28:04–30:07)

• The Midnight Library (Matt Haig) finally in active development with Florence Pugh starring. A likely “feel-good, holiday family kind of release.”
• Jeff’s skepticism:

  “To quote Dorothy Parker, I’m biased against the Midnight Library because I’ve read it.” (30:00)

c. Margot’s Got Money Troubles Renewed

(30:12–33:19)

• Apple TV renews the adaptation of Rufi Thorpe’s Margot’s Got Money Troubles for a second season.
• Rebecca lauds the adaptation’s emotional intelligence and affirming tone around sex work and family.
  • “It’s a really lovely affirming, you know, anti-shaming tone to a lot of it that I really appreciate.” — Rebecca (33:12)

d. Good Omens Closing Chapter

(33:19–36:59)

• Good Omens will end with a single, 90-minute "season three" episode; Neil Gaiman not involved amid lawsuits and allegations.
• Rebecca notes positives:

  “…makes me happy for fans who have been invested in this that there’s a way to have a close to this series that doesn’t make you feel gross and makes me glad that Amazon has not put more money in Neil Gaiman’s pocket.” (35:52)

e. Other Upcoming Adaptations

(36:59–40:12)

• Netflix’s East of Eden (Florence Pugh) trailer drop—Rebecca’s been waiting for the adaptation to read the book.
• Noting a wave of upcoming classics adaptations: Dune, Hunger Games, two Austens (Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility), and more.

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5. Frontlist Foyer: Book Recommendations & Deep Dives

(40:12–58:00)

a. John of John by Douglas Stuart

(Rebecca’s pick; 41:24–48:01)

• Rebecca hails the novel as possibly her “new book of the year.”
• Set in 1990s Outer Hebrides, it explores closeted father/son secrets and the pressures of community, faith, and selfhood. Heavily emphasizes longing, humanity, and the difficulty of “niceness” that isn’t truthfulness.
• Emotional resonance compared to Marilynne Robinson’s Gilead.

  “What’s the point of all this niceness if you can’t tell the truth?” (Rebecca quoting the novel, 44:14)

• Worth noting: Blend of humor and deep pathos—an “observational” book about human nature and constraint.

b. The Art of Lying by Alexandra Andrews

(Jeff’s pick; 48:48–57:04)

• Reese’s Book Club selection: an “elevated category mystery” set in the art world—a woman drawn into art-world intrigue, infidelity, and murder.

• Jeff praises its fun and pacing but laments its richness-in-rich-people-problems:

  “I do not care like in a really fundamental way about the lives of rich people.” — Jeff (52:13)

• Broader meditation: Do “rich people problems” novels still hold narrative allure now that technologized convenience has “democratized frictionlessness”?

  “I think … so much of today’s technology is about removing friction from every kind of interaction for everybody…. That idea of like a frictionless existence… we now know is really boring.” — Rebecca (54:11)

• Both hosts look forward to more deeply personal, less status-obsessed fiction (and possibly a Michael B. Jordan-fronted art heist movie!).

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Memorable Quotes

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:58 | Jeff | “Never a bad time for a best hundred novels of all time. There’s never a good time or never a bad time for it.” | | 14:07 | Jeff | “Rebecca, I like to think of us as delivering strong business performance.” | | 18:00 | Jeff | “You know how you go into the grocery store and there’s like 50 types of Crest... you buy Crest, any Crest, doesn’t matter what.” | | 21:03 | Rebecca | “I’ll believe it when I see casting… this is news this week because it’s upfront season…” | | 30:00 | Jeff | “To quote Dorothy Parker, I’m biased against the Midnight Library because I’ve read it.” | | 33:12 | Rebecca | “It’s a really lovely affirming, you know, anti-shaming tone.” | | 35:52 | Rebecca | “…makes me happy for fans who have been invested in this that there’s a way to have a close to this series that doesn’t make you feel gross…” | | 44:14 | Rebecca | “What’s the point of all this niceness if you can’t tell the truth?” (quoting John of John) | | 52:13 | Jeff | “I do not care like in a really fundamental way about the lives of rich people.” | | 54:11 | Rebecca | “So much of today’s technology is about removing friction from every kind of interaction for everybody…. The idea of a frictionless existence…is really boring.” |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:53 – The Guardian’s 100 Best Novels: Process & Hot Takes
• 07:12 – “Zero to Well Read”: Recent and Upcoming Episodes
• 13:49 – PRH Quarterly Report (“Strong Business Performance”)
• 20:18 – Adaptation Block: Fourth Wing Series
• 28:04 – The Midnight Library Adaptation News
• 30:12 – Margot’s Got Money Troubles Renewed
• 33:19 – Good Omens Final Episode News
• 36:59 – East of Eden Adaptation & Wave of Literary TV/Movies
• 40:12 – Frontlist Foyer: Book Recommendations and Discussion (inc. John of John and The Art of Lying)

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Final Notes

• The episode closes with enthusiastic reading recommendations and the ever-insightful (and caffeinated) banter Book Riot listeners love. This week: a deep, humane Scottish novel that may become the year’s critical darling… and some sharp side-eye at the ongoing glut of “rich-people-problems” mysteries.

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For book lovers who want the full scoop—without the industry jargon—this week’s Book Riot delivers sharp wit, a pulse on publishing trends, indispensable reading picks, and a clear-eyed take on what’s really “strong business performance” in the literary world.

Transcript

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know what? I'm beginning to think, Rebecca, that the New York Times Book Review's best books of the century so far was like the best idea in recent media because we have read their putt. Let's put it gently, one of our top stories today is reading the putt. Well, they're doing something a little bit different, but using a crowdsourced thing. I don't know if that's Gilbert G.C. if you're listening, congratulations to you. We all have dined out on the so far. Books. Let's get people to vote. Because these are interesting. Rebecca. I don't want to spoil it, but that was my first thought of mine is like, this is the content model that has launched a thousand lists even in the year of our Lord 2026.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. And that, like, you know, it's. It's happened in all forms of media, about all forms of entertain. There have been like, best movies of the century so far. Best whatevers. You are talking specifically about the Guardians new project, which is not anchored to the century. It's the hundred best novels of all time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right. But they use the. Let's get a bunch of people to vote and make that part of this project.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, they did the, like, collective voting from a bunch of ballots. And they're doing the same rollout model that the New York Times did of 20 titles a day. Curiously, they started it on Tuesday. So we'll get 20 a day through this week as we're recording. And then by the time the show is out on Monday, the top 20 will have been revealed. Interesting to me. Why not do it Monday through Friday? But that's their secret to keep, I guess.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, Tuesday. I. I don't know. I'm sure they have their reasons. The other difference here is you can select on each book and see who voted for it. And you can see all the votes. So I'm just clicking on the Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov, because I was reading about it as part of the flagship newsletter thing I was doing the other day. And you can see right there that a total of five votes got. Got it on the list at number 66. And Salman Rushdie being the foremost among them, though, including Khalif Shafak. Then if you click on Salman Rusty, you can see his top 10, and those are revealed in some order I cannot understand. So it's showing. It's showing two of his ten. His number nine was Master and Margarita and the Tin Drum was number five, which doesn't look like it's on the list yet, but there's rabbit hole potential here at the. At the same time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And like, I couldn't find. Did you see anything about how many people contributed?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I did not see a meta methodology corner breakdown.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. Because the. The highest ranking book that's been revealed as we're recording this is number 41, which is heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad. And it got seven votes. Mm. So I just wonder how many people participated total. And then how many votes did it take? Like, how many did the number one get? What's the biggest difference because number 100, the, the lowest is my Antonia. It got four votes. And I'll just be curious about like what's the gap between the vote getting to place number 100 and the vote getting to place number one?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Most of these you're going to see a fat head, whereas they get higher, it's going to grow not exponentially but linearly or maybe even more where it went from. Because number 41 is the highest that's been revealed. It has seven votes. So it's sort of double, right? From 100 to 41. I would, I would expect it's more, it's going to more than double. I think it's not going to be 14, I would say about 20, 25 by number one. I guess we won't spend a lot of time on the results until they're all released. Unless you want, if you had something you want to say about at this point.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, it's interesting, like with the Guardian being a site out of the UK too, this is an interesting list that breaks American readers out of, you know, primarily thinking about American novels and British lit. So interesting to see that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I will say a lot of the people that voted, I don't know who they are, that says nothing about them, that says something about me. But there's quite a few. These are names I don't know necessarily.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There will be some comparison to be done of like pull out. You could pull out all the 21st century novels from this list and compare them to where they placed on the New York Times list. When it's done like the number one on the New York Times list was My Brilliant Friend by Elena ferrante. It's number 51 on the Guardian. So a little bit of like recency versus the long arc of history happening there. And that's always fun to see too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was delighted to see Housekeeping by Marilyn Robinson at number 43, which I would have expected is like super American, but I don't know. And it's some of the Americans that are voting, I think got on board of that train as well. Yeah. Interesting to see it's never a bad time for a best hundred novels of all time. There's never a good time or never a bad time for it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And you know that I will be comparing the finalized list of 100 to the master list of 0 to well read contenders.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I was just going to look. I mean maybe that's worth just saying right now. Have we covered, we covered, have we covered any of these yet? I didn't do that kind of list.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, I didn't do that kind of look at it yet, either.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't think we've covered any. I mean, we've done oh, go Tell on the mountain at 79. We have done that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay, we did that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We did the bluest eye. 75. We did Butler, but we did this is Kindred. And we did Parable of the Sower.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We did Never Let Me Go.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's Never Let Me Go. I don't think we've done.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that's it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think that's it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And then there's. There are several more on this list that are actually coming up in the summer and the fall. So.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Cruising through the great books over there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

A couple books I don't know that I've heard of. Nervous Conditions by Tsitsi Dangarengba. I don't know that book.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't know that one either.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So it was shortlisted for the Booker six years ago. Very interesting to see there. Yeah, Check that list out. It's a lot of fun. Nice. Ui. I will give them shouts for that as well. I got ahead of myself. We should do some here things to keep on the. On your radar. Right. After this episode, we'll be recording our next Patreon episode for the BR pod. It is time for May 2026. Deals, deals, deals. I've been combing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Love it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Combing the deals is this. You comb like this. It's been a while since I've combed. I don't know. Go back to front. I don't know how you do this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Really. Too bad. This is a visual medium.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. When Rowan was younger, I would comb her hair a little bit, but that's combing someone else's hair. So when you say comb your hair, I do this, I go somewhere else. It's not on me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, you comb the beard.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Kind of. Kind of do this kind of deal to it. So check that out over on Zero to. Well read. I am bad at knowing what's in the feed any given time. Rebecca, what is in the. What's the most recent episode of Zero to Red as we speak. Right. This singular moment.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

If you are listening, on Monday, the most recent episode is our rerun of the Great Gatsby. If you are coming to us later in the week, it is Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall kimmerer, which a huge favorite among book nerds. A really fascinating story about how that book broke out. From being in the slush pile at a small nonprofit publisher to selling more than 3 million copies and being translated into like 20 some odd languages. We had a wonderful conversation about it. So that's happening over in Zero to well read and we've also launched the sign up like preparation process for our guided read alongs that we're going to be doing several times a year over there. We've not yet announced the first book, but if you've been looking for a like book club meets English class, you want to talk to some other people as you go through the books several times a year. We're going to pick a book that do a short preparatory bonus episode available only to those Patreon subscribers about what to be looking for and maybe some tools to have in your back pocket as you move through the read. We'll have a chat for all of the participants as it's going through through Patreon. We're not going to be texting you, don't worry. And then the and we don't want you to text us either.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh please God no.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And and then have some final episodes about those. Been a really exciting response to that so far. Folks seem ready to go to do something that's I'm thinking of it as like book plus have some yeah, guided conversation. So that's happening there too.

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

Let's see. PRH the the Goliath, the 800 pound gorilla in the world of Anglophone publishing reported on Q1 earnings and the quote is delivered a strong business performance. Rebecca, I like to think of us as delivering strong business performance.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's usefully vague.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think this sentence is I have to ask this. I don't want to ask this. Do you know what I'm about to ask?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm not sure.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Is that AI?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, I hope not.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Actually, it sounds like it could be.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What is that? What is Delivered a strong business performance.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Let's look at some of the numbers. So this is a PW piece from Jim Milliot, all of Bertelsmann, which is the parent company, company of Penguin Random House. First quarter sales went down from 4.4 billion pounds or euros. That's euros, right. To 4.5. From 4.5 down to 4.4. So a drop of $100 million.

[Jeff O'Neill]

100 million pounds pounds, euros.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And there, let's see. But Netherlands revenues increased. Sales are down. But revenues increased. There's not anything about profit.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I think it sold RTL Netherlands. So if I think what's happening is it got rid of something that, yes, contributed to sales, but if you get rid of that on a comp basis of the things we had in 2025, Q1 and the things we have now, revenues actually increased.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Got it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean that sounds like strong business performance, to be clear. As mud.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Sell off the thing that's that had been making you money, but maybe you're going to make more money this way in the long run. Sure. Like it's not a bad message. They're not saying that they're doing layoffs or that there's a concern about stuff, but that doesn't mean that there are not concerns about things or any changes in staffing. And it's interesting that it's being driven by the correspondent in the US which sold 1.5 million copies in the US, UK and Australia, and then also a book called for the Fans, K Pop Demon hunters, which sold 1.6 million across the US, the UK, Canada, Germany and Spain. So a couple big title, big tentpole titles that are driving this strong business performance. You know you've got to do my performance review later this month.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I know. I'm behind on prepping. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Can I just get a document? Yeah, that's it. Rebecca Shinsky has delivered a strong business performance.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I believe I have delivered a strong business performance.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

If actually, if I wrote that, that in my self evaluation, would you think it was AI?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I would have to have a friend of ours who lives close to you do a wellness check, you know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Maybe the pod people came in.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's right. They also cite prh, cites film adaptations of Project Hail Mary and weirdly, Wuthering Heights. Which is in the public domain. Which is in the public domain. So I don't know if they have the best selling reissue or some fancy edition. That, that's the thing I was actually the most interested is like Wuthering Heights PRH things specifically, did they sell?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, they have actually several editions. Because there's Penguin. Yeah. There's the Penguin Classics edition, which is what I read when we did it for the show. I'm pretty sure there's a Penguin drop caps of Wuthering Heights, which is Modern Library.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't even want to be in Modern Library.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. There is a drop caps and there's a movie tie in edition with Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi on the COVID So there are lots of options. And like, as I told you, when I saw the movie, there were people in the bathroom, like, I've got to go read that book. And I just don't think that most are who are casual readers like that or who are just, you know, who did not know what Wuthering Heights was about until they saw the Jacob Elordi.

[Jeff O'Neill]

They went on Amazon and because of SEO, the drop cap, they're not like, that looks fancy. Let me go grab that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. They're not searching for Project Gutenberg editions.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. So kind of what they were doing is like, you know how you go into the grocery store and there's like 50 types of crests that are barely distinguishable.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And the only purpose of that is so you buy Crest, any Crest, doesn't matter what. Just so you don't go down and get Toms that doesn't work or Colgate, which I don't know, for whatever reason is like the Topsy. In my experience, the kinds of personal hygiene products that I could buy, like a co op situation or the Merc back in Lawrence, they are not equipped to deal with whatever I'm bringing to the table. They just aren't sufficient to handle this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is Also a. We believe in deodorant. Full of chemicals in my house.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's right. That's right. I. I should just put aluminum foil on there. Not aluminum free. Just like rolls of aluminum foil. Would that be. That would probably help my sweatiness. Aluminum foil covering most of my upper torso.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You try that and let me know how that goes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So anyway, this is what they're they in like Pop Tarts and Oreo. This is one of the reasons you see the proliferation of varieties of brands that, you know, it's mostly to take up shelf space. But then what happens is that superstores get bigger because we got all these brands and they need to make bigger stores so they have to make more varieties. I think we're spiraling towards doom and it's because of Crest and Pop Tarts, not AI. That's really what I mean.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is. It is why weirdly shopping at Costco is kind of soothing because there's like one option.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm surprised that Cocko hasn't gone to just one giant deodorant. You can get like a pack, but why not just one? Because here's the thing about. It's like a slip slide.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You just roll your body.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But like, have you ever noticed I don't know what ladies deodorant is doing in the tube, right? I don't know. But like for fellas, deodorant, you get that full magazine cartridge thing, right? But only the top third of it is the stick. The rest is just empty pride packaging. I'm not sure what that is exactly. Costco. Just give. If you gave me like a deodorant that was the width and length of the. Remember those old CD cases we used to have like the long ass ones? Just give me one of those. A deodorant. I'll pay 50 bucks for it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

How much coffee have you had today?

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's a great question. It's a. It's a really good question. But I am so sick of like, oh, I got my little half an egg of deodorant at the top of this thing. I just given me the whole thing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm not sure how to come back from this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think it would deliver a strong business performance for all involved.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There it is. That's the callback.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There he is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Anyway, PRH lives to fight another day, right?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Speaking of strong business performance, where are we on our bets that the fourth wing adaptation is going to happen? I think it has to have gone up. But you are still. Yeah, I think I dropped this in slack to you. I still call it Slack, you know, in Google Meet for like six years. Anyway, I dropped this into Company Chat, our business performance platform. I dropped this to you and you're like, I'll believe it when I see casting. Even though the news is Amazon ordered a series from Outlier Society and Kilter Films. So what does this mean? I don't know enough of the term of art. Is this your understanding that they wrote a check or a promise to deliver? They have a budget and line items. Because I agree with you that casting and director and this would be our holy. Like, then we're go for launch. But you don't. You still think this is not happening. That's what you said.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, I still think it's questionable because Amazon, MGM Studios is who acquired the rights to make the adaptation. So the, like the book property has already been over there at Amazon. We've already known that Amazon owns the Fourth Wing rights and wants to make an adaptation. The only new thing really is that they've got an executive producer and showrunner attached. And this is news this week because it's upfront season for all of the TV networks and now also all of the streamers where they're talking about, you know, the things they have in the hopper mostly for advertisers to get on board about. So they trot out Michael B. Jordan, whose company is producing this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

He's out there on Front street with Rebecca Yarris herself, this seems.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And he's a freshly minted Oscar winner. Like, I just.

[Jeff O'Neill]

He's an overall deal with Amazon. I know that's.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, this is a really good PR move by Amazon. Like, look at new Oscar winner Michael B. Jordan, who does have great taste. And he is going to adapt. Like, he's producing this adaptation. We have a showrunner now and we're going to order it to series. But I don't think ordering this to series was ever a variable. Like, they bought it to make a series. It's just officially they're not going to

[Jeff O'Neill]

make a pilot of 4th Wing and like, huh, I don't know about these dragons.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. And it was always going to be a series. So of course it was going to be on Prime Video because it's coming from Amazon. Where else would it be? They've just like put it on someone's P L now.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But I think the, the order versus option versus something other verb noun. I, I feel like this matters, but I don't know the terms of art enough to know. I think a sizable chunk of money is being given to someone to make

[Rebecca Schinsky]

this order has order does mean something like some wheels have moved, but production has not begun, casting has not begun. Like I. I am more likely to believe that we're actually going to see this now, but when we will see it and will anyone care by the time we see it is the real question.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I have a. This is not a conspiracy theory. I think it's a connecting the dots. I think Amazon, which funded Project Hail Mary, saw a book adaptation do well and that got them over the confidence hump. Because this has been in the ether, right? Like someone going to do this, it's the big thing, blah, blah, blah. But Amazon, this is the biggest hit Amazon's ever had in the movie theater and it's going to do beautifully on Amazon Prime. It's VOD right now, but it's gonna be able to Amazon prime. And it's like the adaptation works and 4th Wing has a bigger existing Van Bas than 4th Wing. Now. Now the challenge and maybe the wrong message Amazon is getting is the difference is or not the difference because Fourth Wing doesn't. The series doesn't exist yet. Is Project Hail Mary was good, right? It was good. So if this is good, it can work. And usually good things can work. But what if it's not good? It's also going to be expensive, costs

[Rebecca Schinsky]

a lot of money and takes a lot of time. And once they start making these, there's going to be real pressure. There's real pressure to crank these out. Like 4th Wing or Empyrean book 4 is not coming this year, but Yaros has started writing it. So we might get it next year. We might get. We might get the fifth book in 2028 or 2029. And once these get going, you're gonna be in a Game of Thrones George R.R. martin situation where if the series does perform well, they've got to keep making it. But has Rebecca Yarrows written the end of it? Like, we also don't know how long ago this deal happened. Michael B. Jordan just announced it this week because it was up. It's upfront season. So like, I think this is really can. And like this is what you do in upfront season. I just don't know that, like it's actual news that there's. That there's been a. No one is surprised that there was going to be a series order. So when there's casting and some sort of like anticipated drop on even in this season, like right now, Netflix is talking about east of Eden with Florence Few Florence Pugh is coming this fall. I just want to hear like coming next spring 4th Wing starring this person

[Jeff O'Neill]

I this here's another thought that flitted through the the bus stop that is my conscious mind. With things coming, going and not really making much of an impression on anyone, including me. I have reason to suspect that the publisher of 4th Wing Red Tower Slash Entangled if Rebecca Euros misses some deadlines, I'm not sure this is Rebecca Yarrows his property completely. This is not a George or Martin. This is my ip. I wouldn't be shocked. I don't know. I just have reason to think that maybe somewhere buried deep in this deal there is a should X, Y and Z happen fourth Wing remands to us and we have the right to get another writer or you're going to get credit or what? You're going to get your money. But Rebecca Yaros is does not need to deliver strong business performance for the Fourth Wing Empyrean saga to go forward. Like, I think there's a world which we may not have a George Martin situation because I agree with you, I'd be very leery at this point with any series that's not done if I'm looking over at Game of Thrones and like boy, I do not want to get entangled with that. I also don't want George R.R. martin's level of involvement. These things are hard enough to make without the authors taking potshots at you on their LiveJournal account or whatever.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And like Yaros is going to be deeply involved in the adaptation. She has said that she wants it to be, you know, of course she wants it to be as good as possible, want it to be faithful to the stories and for it to look good. Amazon has the money, but it's just hard to do well. And I do think the clock is ticking. Like the fandom is very excited about this still. And to Yarros's credit and Entangled's credit, they are breadcrumbing this. A couple weeks ago there was an announcement that there's a Rebecca Yarros book that's an Empyrean series drop in. It's not book four. It's like a little novella that she just, she kind of pulled a Beyonce and like it appeared for pre order without any announcement on Amazon. But of course the fans found it immediately and and she's like, I'm not giving you book four this year, but here's something to keep you on the hook. So they are trying that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's what Night of the seven. I know, I know that's not a good sign. I don't like that sign.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And like, maybe that's also a product of this. Like, they know that the show announcements are coming soon and you want to keep people engaged. So here's a novella to keep you going until book four. Maybe the show will come out. If the show is good, it will goose sales for the whole series, but especially for book one. Like, you'll get a bunch of people who haven't read the books who go back and start them over. But this, it's not like a series order is generally not a nothing burger. But that it's coming from the streamer that already bought the adaptation rights and that we, we knew everything except that it had a showrunner before last week just doesn't feel like that big of a deal yet. But I'm glad that they're making some hay out of it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Speaking of deals that I think were Project Hail Mary inspired, the Midnight Library is going to get adaptations starring Florence Pugh again. I just think maybe we're coming back to let's adapt the giant selling books. You know, we can do the Hoovers, we can do the whatevers, but there's something here. This one is going to have some VFX because they're specific elements, but it's not dragons flying around. It's going to be Florence Pugh walking into doors and be like, boy, it's sad that I'm not there anymore. What can I do about it? Which is, I'm sorry I spoiled the Midnight Library for any of you. Has read it out there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And it's been kind of an adaptation hell since 2020. It got optioned shortly after the book hit the New York Times bestseller list. And it sort of moved around, but now they have Florence Pugh attached, they have a director attached, they have a screenwriter attached. Like, this is progress. And I think, like, they're gonna start production in early 2027. So if it's a relatively low tech production, this could be a family holiday movie at the end of 2027.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's been a series of movies like this where that's like lightly specific elements. And I cannot remember the name of them, but there's one, it was called Eternity, I think that had Olson and Miles Teller in it and maybe somebody else. And there was another one like We Live in Time, like these that are trying these. I don't know that any of them has done particularly well. So I think I'm selling this. By the way, I don't know this is going to be good.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think it'll really depend on how. Like for me, it'll depend on what the trailer looks like. Like, I was not enticed to read the Midnight Library, but I might go see it. That's a lot. Two hours of my time in a theater is a lot less than the reading time for a book I'm not interested in. But it does have that like. Yeah. And I think it's a like pretty close to four quadrant situation. You can, it's safe, it's affirming. You can take your family to see it at the holidays. Like, this is just, I'm just guessing now, but this looks to me like a holiday family kind of release.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. To quote Dorothy Parker, I'm biased against the Midnight Library because I've, I've read it. Let's see going on here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Which all of this really does mean we should see news about a Theo of golden adaptation any day.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It has to be happening. It has to be happening. In fact, in doing a little subsequent reading after I did my take, like Alan Levy was like speculating about casting. Like, Tom Hanks was number one on like the people in the list. Speaking of more interesting adaptations, at least to me personally, Margot's got money troubles. Renewed for second season. Apple tv. I have not been watching this. Rebecca. I know you at least started it. I've heard it's good. I've been sort of waiting it for all to be done. I didn't occur to me to think that it doesn't cover the whole book. Do you know if it covers the book? Season one? Are we gonna go off script, off the page or what's happening here?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm current on it. I'm really enjoying it. Like, I, of course I do think the book is better, but I think the show is very good. It's a fun watch and pretty true to the tone of Rufi Thorpe's not novel, which is really what I was looking for. Also, Nick Offerman, just a gift. It's like really a joy to see him on screen again. Last night was the seventh episode out of eight in this season and we are getting ready for Margot to go to court over custody.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Which I think is going to be a cliffhanger. So I think we will get most of the book story in this season and then there will be a building out of the greater Margot universe probably in the second season. But that's fine with me. It's a fun hang.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, it does seem to me that this kind of A show especially there is a hook, but it's really a character piece. Like it's a family dynamics or like that's what you're sticking around for. And I think the Apple shows like shrinking like Ted Lasso, this is very much in that vein where and frankly some of the big re watches of all time, the Office Friends, Brooklyn nine nine Parks and Rec are hangs. Like you want to go hang out with these characters and the plot matters a whole hell of a lot less than you like, you like to hang. And it seems that it's. It's escaped velocity of. Do you want to spend some time with Offerman Pfeiffer and Elle Fanning in this world? I think it makes a ton of sense. I could see this running for a while.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So smart and like it looks great because they spent Apple money on it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think it's also just a huge success in the way that they managed to bring over. Like this is a story about a young woman becoming a sex worker on OnlyFans. But the book has this really wholesome feel to it around sort of the family dynamics of it all. And they really have captured that. Like you see her starting to do that creative work, but you really see like they've really leaned into like, I have to pay for a life for my child. This is work and it's not against the law. Like there is some. This is probably a show that makes conservatives mad, but it's like pretty like what she's doing is what she has to do to take care of herself and to take care of her kid and that there's no shame in it. Offerman's character gets a really glorious moment and so does Greg Kinnear plays Michelle Pfeiffer's new husband. And just like if Ned Flanders were a real person. That's the Greg Kinnear flavor here. But he's doing a great job and he also has a lovely vibe and there's just a really lovely affirming, you know, anti shaming tone to a lot of it that I really appreciate. So I think it's really smart move on Apple's part.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Things that are not going to get renewed past. Whatever's in the can is good omens. It's going to get a single episode, Season three, which feels a little Orwellian to me to say that's a thing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But it's also a 90 minute episode. So it's basically a movie.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it's like Stranger Things had seven movies. That was in the final season. I don't Know the, the elastic. Elasticity of space and time when it comes to streaming is quite a fascinating thing. But this is a real. I know. Go out with a whimper, not a bang. To the Good Omens trilogy, which a lot of people like. Co written by the original novel co written by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. Neil Gaiman was intimately involved in the initial two seasons and then I guess had something to do with the writing of the third. These are these. This has now exceeded the bounds of the original book. That's one reason we're talking about it here. But Gaiman, as we've talked about in the show, had a. A good old stack of allegations and lawsuits pile up. A lot of those things are still being adjudicated. We don't need to get in here again now. Except that they exist and you can go do your googling. We're going to link to a USA Today piece that also includes these directly. I will say this. I really like this book Good Omens. I liked it from the beginning. It's very Hitchhiker's Guide to the gal to the Galaxy Coded but for good and evil and Judeo Christian stuff. I don't know, Rebecca. It's a very tough end for a property a lot of people like. And it's made more complicated because of Terry Pratchett's involvement, which has enormous goodwill and unfortunately, probably his best known property to most people is Good Omens and not the Discworld series is now solely because the other thing on the ampersand symbol to it. So I don't know what else to say about it, but that is happening.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I know a lot of fans were just incredibly first distraught by the news about Neil Gaiman. And then as books were getting pulled and other projects were getting canceled, they were I think supposed to begin production on what would have been a full final season of Good Omens around the time that those accusations came out and that they announced that they had paused that production and it was unclear what was going to happen. So clearly some folks have had some conversations about like what do we want to give the fans and what can we ethically do? And they wanted. They want to tie up the story. So this one 90 minute episode is a. And intended to tie up the story. Neil Gaiman is not involved with it at all. That makes me happy for fans who have been invested in this that there's a way to have a close to this series that doesn't make you feel gross and makes me glad that Amazon has not put more Money in Neil Gaiman's pocket.

[Jeff O'Neill]

In the meantime, it's interesting that they went to the trouble. I mean I'm old enough to remember that they would stop a series for less than this. Like oh yeah, just that doesn't perform well is enough to not do season two or more Twin Peaks or whatever else it's going to be. So I don't know if there's a contract situation. I don't know that they thought, you know, there was a goodwill thing. I don't know if Michael Sheen and David Tennant got involved and said we really want this to happen and it became a talent management point of view.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, who knows?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I guess I'm surprised to see that they want it because this is a real. Bittersweet's not the right. I'm not even sure what the right term for this. This odd duck of a finale is. Like why do it?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Consolation.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Very odd. It's very odd to see them do it. But there are, there are many sadnesses involved in the Neil Gaiman situation. This is not in the top 10 but it is one of how do you deal with a property in a. In a franchise and something that's heart and soul and wit and grace in the text itself. What do you do with that as a fan? It's. I don't know that anyone has a good answer to it and I certainly haven't come up with with a better one. Does that take us to the end of the news? It does.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It was a really, really pretty light news week. Just tons of adaptation stuff happening this week again because up front season also this morning Netflix did drop the trailer for the Florence Pew east of Eden.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I haven't watched it yet.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Did you adaptation? It's only a minute long so you don't get much of a sense, but it looks beautiful. It's still just saying this fall, once there's a date for this fall, we're gonna have to do some math or maybe we'll put it to a vote for 0. To well read listeners of like, there are a bunch of high profile adaptations and we're not going to do them all on the show, but we're going to have to make some determinations about what we're most interested in and what folks want to hear.

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

On east of Eden. Is that one of yours?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I've not read it. No. Yeah, it's been on my list forever.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And then one of my favorite endings of all time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was like circling around it a couple years ago, around the time that this deal got announced and I was like, well I'll just wait until the adaptation. So it was supposed to come out in fall of 26 initially they've or fall of 25. They bumped it because I had it on the list for the first season of zero to well read.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I wanted to watch this teaser because I just wanted wanted this sense of scale but really any of any production value quality nervousness I had fell away when I saw Train Dreams because I'm like if they could do that for that they done correctly. It's not going to be about budget. It's going to be some other kind of execution.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And it's. It's a series instead of a movie but it looks beautiful and it'll be Netflix so they'll probably drop them all at the same time. No info yet about how many episodes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to that because, well, Narnia got moved so that's out of the way. But we still have Dune. We still have a Hunger Games situation. We still have this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What else is on Authenticity has Pride and Prejudice.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And there's a Sense and Sensibility adaptation coming to theaters this fall.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So weird. No, it's great. But all of a sudden there's two Austin. When was the last Austin? We got like a big One. It's been a while, hasn't it?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Can think. It's the answer. I'm looking over here like there's an answer. That's just where my thinking happens. All right, I guess it's time for frontless foyer then, which is brought to you by thriftbooks.com you certainly could find a Wuthering Heights of many kinds. You could probably find a Dover Thrift edition for like 2 bucks or 3 bucks or 4 bucks over there. 19 million new and used titles. Also books, games. Physical media is coming back. You can find it there. Game board games for the summer. Books for the summer. Build out your media collection. Go to thriftbooks.com where every purchase gets you closer to a reading. Rewards you can redeem for a free book. And you get free shipping on book orders over $15. And I don't know if this is not in the talking points, I think I mentioned it before, but like, you also, if you're buying a new book, you're getting a discount over list. Like it's comparable to other platforms that shall not be named, generally speaking, when I've looked at it, so. So if you're looking to get a deal on new books because inflation's real and gas is expensive, go over to thriftbooks.com and save yourself a few books and get free shipping and get some rewards going at the same time. Thank you to them for sponsoring front list foyer. I'm very excited. Is this your first Douglas Stewart? I don't think you did Young Mungo or Shuggie Bain, did you?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I just missed them those years. Like there were so many other. Yeah. So I read John of John by Douglas Stewart. This is the real deal, Jeff.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Same thing. Is that it? Okay, cool. Moving on to my new.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

My new front runner for favorite book of the year.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, Terry Jones. Sorry, Tate. Sorry, Taylor.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Sorry, Tayari. Like, they're right there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay, you have to say more now.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. Yeah. So set in the Outer Hebrides, the Scottish islands west of the Isle of Skye. So, like it takes the baby where you've been there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So you're like.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You're like, oh, no, I'm going there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You're going there. Sorry.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Don't be creepy. But it's like the baby character is leaving Glasgow at the opening scene and it takes him 20 hours to go 300 miles because you've got to like take a bus to a ferry to another bus to another ferry to another bus to a long walk home.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Set like mid-90s is there's not A year given, but like based on pop culture references and that the main character is using a seedy Walkman. That's where we are. His name is John Callum. This main character, he's in his early 20s. He grew up on this small island, it's the Isle of Heron, Paris. And he's been away to at art school in Glasgow. He's been called home because his father has said, your grandma who lives with us, like something's wrong, you should come home. So he goes home. He's back on this small, tiny island, insular community. John Callum, we know him as Cal in the book. He's gay. He's not out to his family because they are members of a Calvinist, like very strict Calvinist church called the Free Presbyterian. It's a dying congregation. There's like 25 people who still go to church there on Sunday mornings. His father is deeply involved. He cannot come out to his parents. His mom left a long time ago. That's a whole like point of contention in the story. His father is also gay and he doesn't know it because nobody knows it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The father or the son. The father knows that he himself is gay. But he hasn't told anyone. Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, he hasn't told anyone. He's had a long running secret affair with another man on the island. And most of the tension of this book is are these two men who have so much in common that they don't know it? Are they going to the reader?

[Jeff O'Neill]

You as the reader know that they both have this commonality but they just.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because of father, son things and, and religious and all those things.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that like there's all this pain and all of this harm that's caused by having to keep this secret. Like, and we see it throughout their community that there's like drinking and there's violence and there's despair, but it's mostly just like this book is so full. It's like just full of heart and full of longing and full of real human stuff. And will either of these men find a way to be honest with the other one about who they are? But then the community is built out as well. Like we get little bits, it's omniscient third person, so we get little bits with a bunch of other people on the island and there's this like, you know, these people live in this close knit society where they have to rely on each other. So there's real community obligation. The weather is hard, the work is hard. You have to take care of each other. But of course you don't like everybody, and everybody's in everybody else's business and everybody's trying to keep secrets. And, like, what is obligation when there's no real connection because you can't be your true self? At one point, a character says, what's the point of all this niceness if you can't tell the truth? And it's like, it felt. This is the closest I have felt to, like, oh, this is like reading Gilead. Like, the. I know. And I thought I was having an original thought about that. Like, this feels like Gilead to me. And when I finished the book, I turned it over, and Min Jin Lee refers to Gilead in her blurb. So I did not have an original thought, but at least I'm in the club with Min Jin Lee.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, shit it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. Yeah, it is. It is so. It's so good.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's like, how long is it?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Just about 400 pages. And it took me all week. Like, I had to give it a lot of breathing room. I could only do, like, 50 or 60 pages a day just because it demands that space to dwell in with these characters. And, like, I just kept thinking of Thoreau. And most men lead lives of quiet desperation. Like, yeah, that's what's going on here. But you can see that they don't. That it doesn't have to be that way. And that each of them is searching for, like, a little crack to let the light in, or a little way to tell the truth. Or, like, what. Like, what if we pushed back against these things? What if I could get free in some way? It's just like. It's beautiful and it's devastating. I feel like I'm gonna cry now thinking about it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm not. I mean, I'm not. I. I'm. I guess I'm surprised by the level of your enthusiasm. I really thought young Mungo was terrific. So it's. It's this. It's a smaller. It's not smaller, but, like, this kid goes out with these. Some other young men and things happen and his own history. And I don't want to say too much about him because so much of it is just the vibe and, like, what's going on. And I was like, this guy really knows how to write. So I'm not surprised to move into which always a wire that always has electricity for me, which is fathers and sons and connection and not connection. And can I be with me and can you be with you? And how can we get that opportunity? I'm not surprised to hear that. It really hit. I'm thrilled to see it. My only question now is how high are you going to take it in our fantasy draft?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Which is that is for you to

[Jeff O'Neill]

wonder about because it's already an Oprah pick so we already get that check mark.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean it's high on the list. It's just so wonderful. And it's also really funny, like for being as serious as it is. I was delighted that Stuart has this sense of humor. And many of the characters on the island speak Gaelic, but not all of them do. So there's one family dynamic where two people speak Gaelic to each other in order to. To keep secrets from a person who only speaks English. There's another household in which like two brothers are living like grown ass men in their 50s are living together. But they haven't spoken in a decade for a reason. So if you go visit them and you want to talk to both of them, you have to ask like this one, how things are going. And then you have to turn to the other one and have the same conversation as if they're not all together and everyone is just going along with this. Cuz like this is the way that it's been done.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Interesting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It is, it's. And it just felt to me like Stuart has really has keen observation about humanity. And like in the small and the big things it was. It makes me want to go back to the first.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You should. I mean you should. Because I'm thrilled. I will definitely be reading this very, very soon. I was gonna say I had a stray thought that was not really germane. Oh, the Outer Hebrides are so over indexed in number of stories that get told relative to their population because like the Decoy Bride, Guernsey Larry, Potato Peel Society. This one that's three I can name off the top of my head. Where my US Virgin Islands at? Where are my Seychelles at? Where my Bering Strait Islands at? Let's diversify our remote island chain stories. Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. Okay. You really are caffeinated today. This is amazing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I've only had two. I've only. I don't know what it is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Delivering a strong business performance.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There we go. Strong business performance. I. I likewise picked a recent pick by a major book club kind of randomly I would picked up a few review things on my iPad to try and nothing was really picking up. It worked. They sent me this. I get review copies sort of randomly. I don't know what list there are, why they choose to send them to to me. Someone at peer age thinks I'm a wonderful cook. Because I get all kinds of beautiful cookbooks that I pass along, but it's a waste. Please stop or keep doing it, but just know that's a waste. So this one was on my table.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And it was ready to be picked up. It's a very. Jeff. Well, we like an art heist. We like art world stuff, both you and I together.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And what is it?

[Jeff O'Neill]

The Art of Lying by Alexandra Andrews. Thank you so much for saying that. Reese picked it for her book club for May. The setup is this woman who is in high. Like, she's in the high society of, like, the New York world, but not like the highest echelon. She's like. She and her husband are, like, one rung below. She's. So she's in there, but doesn't have. Already have the house in the Hamptons. They've got the nice apartment and Park Avenue, but it's also not the nicest one. You kind of get what I'm saying there. She is not from this world. She met her husband, who is part of this world, and he's. He's on his way to being a member of. Of it. And she is an art historian. She has been doing her PhD in art history at Columbia, but got married, had a kid. Put that on the shelf. I'm going to get back to it when the kid's a little older. It's just not happening, Rebecca. This has happens to so many people, especially women.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that happens.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And in the middle of this, she's introduced to this art dealer who's French, and they. This is all part of the setup. There's a lot of setup to this. This. And I'm not spoiling it. They have an affair and it ends, and then it restarts. And then the night they restart their affair, he goes downstairs for a drink of water and is murdered. And something else is taken from the house. And as you might imagine, this is a tricky pickle for this woman to be in for a number of reasons, but. So she's trying to exonerate herself by trying to find out who really did. What's the actual story here here. So it gets in the world of art, high art, and what could be going on with insurance and why are we doing this way and family dynamics. I read it in, like, 12 hours. Like, I did a morning session, an afternoon session. It was fun. I don't think there's a single idea in it. Like, there's. It's just. It's an interesting, fun kind of mystery. And I can definitely see if I Ever get to retired through strong business performance over time. I would read 50 of these in in like a two week period. Just like burn through them so I can see why people are gonna like. It's a lot of fun. I look forward to like other mysteries like this is what I'm looking for. But coming from Maria simple or coming from transcription I was just a little like, I want something else a little bit more. I liked it. I'm happy I read it. And if you're a category I think it's probably better. I don't know, it's probably elevated category mystery. Like it's a Harper, it's a hardback. It's not.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Not.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But I just found myself being like that's really great and I enjoyed that but I'm still a little hungry for. I still wasn't completely satisfied by it,

[Rebecca Schinsky]

if that makes sense. Yeah, it's. That's super real. And I think Maria Semple just being out in the world this year with Go Gentle has raised my bar for what it takes for a book to be really fun. Because I have remembered what really fun feels like.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And like a nibble of fun is just not gonna do it. In a year where I've read Go

[Jeff O'Neill]

Gentlemen, I also have a corollary response that I realized in reading this book I do not care like in a really fundamental way about the lives of rich people.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I just like they're just not interesting.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Not like maybe someone can say something interesting. But I've read the Great Gatsby. I read Edith. Like I've done all of this stuff for a long. I read Bonfire of the Bandages. I saw the material. It's like I don't know what someone can say to me about really. I just read last night in book by Zoechio Gonzalez and I had kind of the same. There's like three, like three data points in a row that kind of lined up over the last three or four months where I'm like, none of these people have anything interesting to say about. Maybe there's nothing interesting to say. They're rich, they're vain, they have too much. Everything's like, what's the next thing. I feel like I've got them figured out. Like, Elon Musk is not a mystery to me. I'm not like what I need to figure out Jeff Bezos or like Park Avenue lawyers. Like, I just, I'm not interested. I don't care about their apartments, I don't care about their shoes. I don't care if they're concerned. Like I just don't care. I find myself, I care about the artwork and the. In, in the worlds of the artwork and how it's orthogonal to really rich people because that's the, the grease that keeps those wheels turning. But when she's like describing the art and who went to what school and the boarding school and the managing partner at this firm, I was like, I just. Because so bored. I was bored to tears.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Yeah. And I've been thinking about something related to that recently because I have found myself not picking up what we would call like rich people problems novels, which used to be a kind of catnip for me. And my working theory is that the thing, one of the primary things, just besides the money that used to make rich people's lives different from all of ours, was the lack of friction. Like they could just get things more easily than any of us could. And they still can. But, but so much of today's technology is about removing friction from every kind of interaction for everybody.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Doordash is sort of like a personal chef in a way. Right? I mean, it's not, but it sort of is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Where like you don't have to call somebody, you don't have to go somewhere. You can, you know, have put it into an app and theoretically like never lift a finger to have the. If you can afford to pay the extra fees for those things. But like those are targeted at middle class people. And so that idea of like a frictionless existence. Existence we now know is really boring

[Jeff O'Neill]

and in some ways counterproductive, antithetical to human life and thriving.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. Yeah. There's a book coming out later this year called like In Praise of Inconvenience or the Art of Inconvenience or something like that. That's basically about friction maxing, like, try like go to the drugstore yourself, wait in line for things, talk to other people. It's good for you. And so I think, think for at least for me, that's where the lack of like it just isn't. I've watched succession like what's going rich people doing behind closed doors. They're being terrible is what they're doing. It's just not new.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And so many of the things that maybe are even just sort of voyeuristically interesting to some kind of people. And this is not a value judgment. I'm not saying I'm better than other people. That should just be self evident. I shouldn't have to say it is. I don't care about the clothes or the apartment. I. I'VE been blessed with very little like status mongering gene. Like, I just, I just don't care. Like in a fundamental way there's not

[Rebecca Schinsky]

a brand name that could impress you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I wouldn't know them. I don't even know enough to be impressed. I wouldn't even know. Like there's one thing about like, is it Armani? It's like, no, it's theory. It's like, oh, you should say it's Armani. I was like, oh, I guess if you care, that meant something to you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh yeah. I'm not going to.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No idea what that meant. I'm not going to get that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, I think that's, I mean that's an interesting note too is like even if you are intrigued by the rich people problems novels, there's a certain point where references to rich people things are not actually understandable and accessible to most normal people. Like middle. How many middle class people know the difference between theory and Armani?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, there was one moment and I don't want to. I'm not trying to bag on the book because it's not the point of it. There was one moment where the main character catches herself falling into some like extreme rich people privilege behavior and having like a feeling a kind of way about it. And so there is, there is some of it, like it's not Alexandra Andrews's fault, like to set this to tell this story. It's in the world of rich people. I don't know that she's like, I want to tell a rich person story. I think she was interested in art. I think she did a lot of research or knows something about it because there's a lot of details and stuff about how these things happen, which I did find interesting. Like what the process by which a museum can sell one of its works of art, but how incestuous that all is. Because the people on the board are super rich and they're collectors and they know collectors and like things about offshore companies and what you have to say about who knows what. Like that that's sort of like how the world is put together is interesting to me. But once it's like, and then they got into X kind of car and they went to this neighborhood and this kind of wine. I'm like, I just shoot me. I just really don't care. I just can't. I can't.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I mean, how the art world works. That's what we have the Bianca Bosker book for.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's right. Yeah, that's right. How to Steal a canvas Bianca Bosker where she has to steal. Oh, she has to steal. She has to steal something from a museum.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Plan a heist for art. Do it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Do you know that Michael B. Jordan is starring in a remake of the Thomas Crown Affair?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, I very much know that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's important. That's very important to someone I live with. That first movie was very important.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The Pierce Brosnan one. Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And Michael B. Jordan may be more important to this person than Pierce Brosnan.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, this person and I share some values.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's right. So speaking of friction maxing. Oh, let's get out of here. Rebecca book riot.com listen for show notes. You can choose the email podcast book riot.com joke go check out zero to well read Gatsby is there now. I think I was kind of done with rich people after. I mean, didn't Fitzgerald kind of do the evisceration of rich people there? Like you can't get what you want and you can't make people like you. And that's the thing that only matters. And like we're kind of done here. We're kind of done here. The Patreon Deals, deals, deals. Think of what energy I'm going to bring into a non public feed. Deals, deals, deals. If this is what I'm bringing Today on Thursday, May 14th. Okay, I guess we should get out of here. Rebecca, thank you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Always a pleasure. Thanks so much for listening today. Hope you enjoyed this audiobook Excerpt from the Odyssey by Homer, of course, produced by Our sponsors at 11 read book

[Narrator (The Odyssey - Athena)]

1 visit of Athena to Telemachus Tell me, O Muse, of that sagacious man who, having overthrown the sacred town of Ilium, wandered far and visited the capitals of many nations, learned the customs of their dwellers, and endured great suffering on the deep. His life was oft in peril. As he labored to bring back his comrades to their homes, he saved them not, though earnestly he strove. They perished all through their own forces folly, for they banqueted madmen upon the oxen of the sun, the all o' er looking son, who cut them off from their return. O Goddess, virgin child of Zeus, relate some part of this to me now. All the rest, as many as escaped the cruel doom of death, were at their homes, safe from the perils of the war and sea, while him alone, who pined to see his home and wife again, Calypso, queenly nymph, great among goddesses, detained within her spacious grot in hope that he might yet become her husband, even when the years brought round the time in which the gods decreed that he should reach again his dwelling place in Ithaca. Though he was with his friends, his toils were not yet ended. Of the gods all pitied him, save Poseidon, who pursued with wrath implacable the godlike chief Odysseus, even to his native land among the Ethiopians was the God far off the Ethiopians most remote. Of men, two tribes there are, one dwells beneath the rising, one beneath the setting sun he went to grace a hecatomb of beeves and lambs, and sat delighted at the feast. While in the palace of Olympian Zeus the other gods assembled, and to them the father of immortals and of men was speaking. To his mind arose the thought of that Aegisthus, whom the famous son of Agamemnon, Memnon, prince Orestes, slew of him, he thought, and thus bespake the gods.

[Narrator (The Odyssey - Zeus)]

How strange it is that mortals blame the gods and say that we inflict the ills they bear, when they, by their own folly, and against the will of fate, bring sorrow on themselves. As late Aegisthus, unconstrained by fate, married the queen of Atreus, so son and slew the husband just returned from war. Yet well he knew the bitter penalty, for we warned him. We sent the herald, Hermes, bidding him neither slay the chief nor woo his queen, for that Orestes, when he came to manhood and might claim his heritage, would take due vengeance for Atreides son slain. So Hermes said. His prudent words moved not the purpose of Aegisthus, who now pays the forfeit of his many crimes.

[Narrator (The Odyssey - Athena)]

At once, Athena, the blue eyed goddess.

Thus replied, O father, son of Kronos, king of kings, well he deserved his death. So perish all guilty of deeds like his. But I am grieved for sage Odysseus, that most wretched man, man so long detained, repining and afar from those he loves, upon a distant isle, girt by the waters of the central deep, a forest isle, where dwells a deity, the daughter of wise Atlas, him who knows the ocean to its utmost depths, and holds upright the lofty columns which divide the earth from heaven. The daughter there detains the unhappy chieftain, and with flattering words, words would win him to forget his Ithaca. Meanwhile, impatient to behold the smokes that rise from hearths in his own land, he pines and willingly would die. Is not thy heart, Olympian, touched by this? And did he not pay grateful sacrifice to thee beside the argive fleet in the broad realm of Troy? Why then, O Zeus, art thou so wroth with him?

Then answered Cloud compelling.

[Narrator (The Odyssey - Zeus)]

Zeus, my child, what words have passed thy lips? Can I forget Godlike Odysseus, who in gifts of mind excels all other men, and who has brought large offerings to the gods that dwell in heaven. Yet he who holds the earth in his embrace, Poseidon, pursues him with perpetual hate. Because of Polypheme the Cyclops, strong beyond all others of his giant race, whose eye Odysseus had put out. The nymph Thoosa brought him forth a daughter, she of forces ruling in the barren deep, and in the COVID of o' erhanging rocks she met with Poseidon. For this cause the God who shakes the shores, although he slay him, no sends forth Odysseus, wandering far away from his own country. Let us now consult together and provide for his return. And Poseidon will lay by his wrath for vain it were for one like him to strive alone against the might of all the immortal gods.

[Narrator (The Odyssey - Athena)]

And then the blue eyed Athena spake again.

O father, son of Cronos, king of kings. If such the pleasure of the blessed gods, that now the wise Odysseus shall return to his own land, let us at once dispatch Hermes, our messenger, down to Ogygia, to the bright haired nymph, and make our steadfast purpose known to bring the sufferer Odysseus to his home. And I will haste to Ithaca and move his son, that with a resolute heart he call the long haired Greeks together, and forbid the excesses of the suitor train, who slay his flocks and slow paced beeves with crooked horns to Sparta. I will send him and the sands of Pylos to inquire for the return of his dear father. So a glorious fame shall gather round him in the eyes of men.

She spake and fastened underneath her feet the fair ambrosial golden sandals, worn to bear her over ocean like the wind, and o' er the boundless land. In hand she took, well tipped with trenchant brass, the mighty spear, heavy and huge and strong, with which she bears whole phalanxes of heroes to the earth when she, the daughter of a mighty sire, is angered from the Olympian heights she plunged and stood among the men of Ithaca, just at the porch and threshold of their chief Odysseus. In her hand she bore the spear and seemed the stranger Menteshe, who led the Taphians there. Before the gate she found the haughty suitors. Some beguiled the time with draughts, while sitting on the hides of beeves which they had slaughtered. Heralds were with them and busy menials, some who in the bowls tempered the wine with water, some who cleansed the tables with light sponges, and who set the banquet forth and carved the meats for all. Telemachus the godlike was the first to see the goddess as he sat among the crowd of suitors, sad at heart, and thought of his illustrious father, who might come and scatter those who filled his palace halls and win new honor and regain the rule over his own.