AI is Making Reading Really Messy.

Summary

Book Riot – The Podcast

Episode: AI is Making Reading Really Messy
Hosts: Jeff O’Neal & Rebecca Schinsky
Date: May 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jeff and Rebecca tackle the increasingly complicated relationship between AI and the literary world, from recent headlines about AI-generated books and industry policy changes, to the confusion and controversy surrounding AI-use accusations in prizes and publishing. They also break down major news like the Guardian’s “100 Greatest Novels” survey and recap recent book releases, awards, and tech updates for readers.

Tone: Warm, conversational, a bit irreverent—typical Book Riot house style, with deep industry knowledge and a focus on centering the human experience of reading.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Follow-Up: Listener Letters, Bookish Traditions, and Graphic Novels

• Greek Retellings & Odyssey Buzz: Bookstores are experiencing increased interest in Greek classics, inspired by pop culture ("hot Greek summer", new Mary Beard release).
• Sentimental Graduation Gifts Trend: Parents collecting teacher signatures in childhood copies of “Oh, The Places You’ll Go” was discussed, with skepticism on practicality and suggestions for more meaningful teacher gifts.
• Teachers Going Above and Beyond: Heartwarming story about a 7th grade teacher mailing students their first-day-of-school letters upon graduation. Recognition of the extra, lasting work many teachers do.
  • Quote: “Teachers, man. Teachers.” – Rebecca (06:21)
• Graphic Novel Surge: Discussion of Raina Telgemeier-illustrated Babysitter’s Club editions driving renewed sales and clever Scholastic pre-launch marketing at book fairs.

2. Guardian’s 100 Greatest Novels Survey

• Top 20 Novels Revealed ([10:58]):
  • Titles span British, European, and American lit (e.g., “Middlemarch,” “Ulysses,” “Beloved,” “Wuthering Heights”).
  • Vote distribution is dramatically weighted; “Middlemarch” (top) received 56 votes vs. only 4 for “My Antonia” (#100).
• Analysis of List-Building ([13:25]):
  • Jeff claims he could have predicted 9/10 of the top spots—unsurprising, canonical picks.
  • Surprise: “The God of Small Things” ranked higher than expected.
  • British and western classics dominate, with Rebecca noting the list is “pretty expected... [and] calcified.” (14:26)
• Discussion of Genre Representation ([20:08]):
  • Very few genre titles (“Frankenstein” is highest at #30, “Left Hand of Darkness” at #89).
  • Sci-fi/dystopia (“1984”, “Handmaid’s Tale”, “Never Let Me Go”) debated as genre entries.
  • Memorable Moment: Alien disc metaphor for an episode: “What would you send into space to tell aliens what books can do?” ([22:01])
• Personal Preferences & Critiques:
  • Rebecca: Would move “Jane Eyre” and “Pride and Prejudice” lower, cycle up more modern/genre books.
  • Jeff: Wonders if the list’s lack of surprises makes it less interesting/viral compared to NYT 21st-century list.
• Importance of Institutional Curation: Stress on how influence and curriculum shape canon.

3. International Booker Prize Winner ([26:12])

• Winner: “Taiwan Travelogue” by Yang Shuangzi, trans. Lynn King
  • Notable for its romance plot and engagement with colonialism, rare intersection for major literary prizes.
  • Layered narrative: Presented as a fictional translation of a Japanese travel memoir.
  • Quote: “[It] is equally successful on the romance front as on the critique and exploration of colonialism front, which is really interesting.” – Rebecca (27:41)
• Rebecca’s Reading Approach: Trying not to be spoiled by reviews before jumping in.

4. Tech Updates: Kobo & StoryGraph Integration, Kindle Phase-Out ([28:12])

• StoryGraph x Kobo: Kobo’s integration with StoryGraph offers enhanced tracking; recommended as an alternative to Goodreads/Amazon ecosystem.
• Amazon Phasing Out Old Kindles: Devices pre-2012 no longer support new purchases; affected readers offered discounts/credits.
  • Jeff praises the longevity and sustained usefulness of early e-readers, calling the tech curve “pretty good.”

5. Barnes & Noble & The AI-Generated Book Debate ([31:39])

• James Daunt (B&N CEO) Comments: Open to selling AI-written books if properly labeled—provoked wide backlash.
  • Quote: “Right now. I’m not sure you can say much more in the book community about AI written books and, like, have a lower approval rating.” – Jeff (32:05)
• AI Panic and PR Spin: Both hosts believe headline outrage outpaces actual consumer demand for AI-generated books.
  • Rebecca: “I do not see a near or midterm future where [customers] are asking for that.” (34:11)
• PR Options for Retailers: Three possible stances—pragmatic, outright refusal, or uncertainty—are weighed, acknowledging the commercial logic for “we’ll follow demand.”
• No Real Evidence of Demand: “If there were tons of demand... as a business, it would make sense... but... I do not see a near or midterm future where their customer is asking for that.” – Rebecca (34:11)

6. AI Accusations in Literary Prizes and Publishing

Segment begins at [35:48]

• Commonwealth Prize Controversy: Stories suspected of being partially or wholly AI-generated won regional awards. Breakdowns by critics (like Lincoln Michel) suggest “uncanny valley” writing—factually correct but unhumanly written.
• Structural Problem: It’s nearly impossible to definitively prove a text isn’t AI-generated.
  • Jeff: “You cannot prove a negative.” ([39:54])
• Gatekeeping & Detection:
  • Proposes prizes/publishers establish clear policies/tools for AI-detection (acknowledging tools are imperfect).
  • Suggests using available AI-detection on submissions as a first pass—“stricter scrutiny from the gatekeepers is the only way through this.” ([40:46])
• The Accusation Weaponization:
  • Rebecca: “Maybe this is just where we are now with AI accusations. Like, is everything that wins a prize... going to be subject to extra scrutiny?” ([38:44])
  • Unfair harm to authors who cannot reliably ‘prove’ human authorship; digital mob dynamics.
• Messy Middle: Research vs. Authorship
  • Olga Tokarczuk accused of AI-use because she acknowledged employing it for research, not writing. Clarifies important distinction: is AI an assistant tool or writer/substitute?
  • Rebecca: “We really have got to come around to... what do we mean when we say a book was written with AI? Are the words AI generated? Or did the author use AI in some part of their research process?” ([44:10])
• Industry Response: Ethical Labeling & Consumer Trust
  • Jeff compares potential to organic/environmental seals: Publishers should signal to consumers that a text is human-made and AI-checked, akin to LEED or USDA Organic business models.
  • Publishers’ Role: “If you let AI into your castle as a publisher, this is going to be commoditized... you do not want to commoditize your interest because all they really have is the ability to point attention at something.” ([50:08])
  • The “reader ego” issue—no one wants to enjoy a book and then discover they were “fooled” by an algorithm.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Guardian list predictability ([13:43]): “I would have predicted 9 out of the top 10 novels on the list. Now, I’m not saying that those would have been my votes, but I think I have a very good sense of what people think the best novels are.”—Jeff
• On AI-in-Books Panic ([34:11]): “I do not see a near or midterm future where their customer is asking for that.” —Rebecca
• On AI accusations as bad faith criticism ([38:44]): “Maybe this is just where we are now with AI accusations... this hurling an AI accusation is a really easy way right now to tank the publicity for a book.”
• On publishing’s gatekeeping responsibility ([44:43]): “You want [gatekeepers] on the wall. You need me on that wall. Gatekeepers.”
• On commoditization risk for publishers ([50:08]): “If you let AI into your castle as a publisher, this is going to be commoditized...all they really have is the ability to point attention at something.”
• Human connection in reading ([51:59]): “So much of reading is either having something opened up for you that you didn’t know before, or feeling seen...that is essentially human. And we want to know our art is coming from humans.” —Rebecca

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Frontlist Foyer: Recent Book Picks ([56:28])

• On Witness and Respair by Jesmyn Ward (essays, resilience, loss, hope)
• London Falling by Patrick Radden Keefe (nonfiction, true crime, London’s hidden wealthy underbelly)
• Frog and Other Essays by Anne Fadiman (charming essays on eccentric topics; notable for a moving reminiscence on Marina Keegan)
• Remains of the Day — in list discussion as a favorite, “would have put Never Let Me Go higher” (Kazuo Ishiguro)
• Audio & Color Nonprofit Grant ([54:17]): Partnership with Audible for supporting independent romance authors of color in self-publishing audiobooks—currently accepting applications.

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Additional Bookish & Industry News

• StoryGraph x Kobo integration enhances digital reading and stat tracking alternatives to Goodreads.
• Old Kindles Phased Out: Amazon drops 2012-and-earlier devices from new book purchases, signaling a long product lifecycle but forcing upgrades.
• International Booker Prize: “Taiwan Travelogue” wins, notable for its genre and layered narrative device.
• Discussion of Book Canon Making: The “alien disc” concept introduced for future episode—what 10 books would you send into space to represent literature?

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 10:58 – Guardian’s Top 20 Greatest Novels discussion
• 26:12 – International Booker Prize winner
• 28:12 – StoryGraph/Kobo integration & Kindle obsolescence
• 31:39 – Barnes & Noble AI-written books controversy
• 35:48 – AI in Prizes, Detection, & The Literary Mess
• 56:28 – Frontlist Foyer & recent recommendations

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Takeaways for Listeners

• The literary community is entering a “messy middle” where AI’s role in book creation, research, and curation is controversial, with reader trust and institutional gatekeeping more important than ever.
• Book canons and “best-of” lists reflect entrenched taste and educational influence, not real surprise or inclusivity—sparking broader questions about what stories we value.
• Publishers, prize committees, and retailers need to transparently communicate their AI policies to safeguard trust in human-created literature.
• Great nonfiction essays by giants like Anne Fadiman continue to delight; literary prizes are increasingly international and genre-diverse, and resources like StoryGraph and Kobo offer robust new tools for readers.

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Contact

Email: [e-mail]
Catch new episodes, plus interviews and literary guides, on the Book Riot site and "Zero to Well Read" podcast feed.

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Book Riot – The Podcast is a proud member of the Airwave Podcast Network.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

This is the Book Riot Podcast. I am Jeff o' Neill and I'm Rebecca Schinsky. We just came off a fun and raucous recap and future looking fantasy league draft. Rebecca, about as much fun as we can have podcasting. I think doing that stuff at this point.

[A]

I think so. Sharifa and our friend Laura McGrath are like great hangs great taste and always see some things that we've seen but also pick out some books that maybe neither of us had our eyes on. We learn about some new stuff. It was a good time and that'll be in the Patreon feed in the next couple weeks.

[B]

Yeah. If nothing else, if this is my regular life and is an ongoing lesson, humility. That one for multiple reasons. If you want to find out about you can certainly go join the Patreon.

[A]

I'm going to offer you a reframe. I think that it's evidence of what a wise man you are to surround yourself by brilliant women.

[B]

It's a really nice way of complimenting yourself as you're trying to soften the blow. But I see what you're doing and I recognize it. At the same time, if you want more of what we do. Actually, if you want more of what we do to cater more directly to what you want, please go check out our site survey bookriot.com 2026survey there'll be a link in the show notes bookriot.com listen or just your podcaster there, tell us. You know we have bought a bunch of questions about reading habits and genre and who you are and all your interests and things like that. That helps us put together our media kit, put in front of advertisers and other clients and partners, and then helps us figure out what we're going to write about, what we're going to cover and what we're going do. And for your trouble, you'll be entered in for a chance to win a $50 gift card from our [e-mail] where you could buy books and other things and get free shipping and all the thriftbooks things that we'll say here when we get to Frontless Foyer. Thanks for taking the time there, Rebecca. Where else can people find us in the coming weeks, days and weeks?

[A]

Where can people find us? Well, we've got a special episode of Zero to well Read in that feed. Namwali Serpell, the author of On Morrison about Toni Morrison's work, popped in to talk with us about how to read Toni Morrison and where start. She also has a new podcast out called passages I.e. recordings of live conversations that she had during her book tour for On Morrison, and each one is about a different one of Toni Morrison's books with a different conversation partner. So you can hear her talk with Tracy K. Smith about the Bluest Eye or with house favorite Hanif Abdurraqib about Song of Solomon. Really wonderful stuff happening in that feed. We've also got Breeding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer live in the Zero to well Read feed. And if you are listening to this on Monday, May 25, it is t and you know what that is. You're going to be excited about tomorrow's episode of Zero to well Read, which is the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams. So we've really been all over the literary universe in the last couple weeks.

[B]

Got some particularly interesting feedback over the last couple of shows. I've lost track of where it was. I'll just sort of walk through them real quickly. Isabel did a little bit of I guess it was just on the show we did for the Hot List about where the Odyssey is What additions people are carrying. And this one she went over to local bookstore and saw what they were doing. Said this is interesting to see bump sales. Not really. It sounds like suggested to that store that they pick up Emily Wilson. I think that's pretty cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Isabel and her friends are doing a read aloud of the Odyssey together in anticipation of the months of the film coming out. That's just seems to be a very cool idea. So Isabel, thanks for writing it a read aloud.

[A]

That's a really great time. I want to see some bookstores do hot Greek summer displays with the Odyssey and all the other stuff. You could throw Madeline Miller on there. You can throw a bunch of your Greek retellings. Mary Beard has a new book that came out earlier this week called I think talking classics about reading really old books. My copy. I pre ordered a copy copy. I forgot I had pre ordered it. I went to order it earlier this week and bless like I was going path of least resistance on that one because it was spur of the moment. So bless the little pop up on Amazon that was like you actually ordered this six months ago.

[B]

Amazing. Let's see. Kate wrote in to say on the oh the places you'll go front there's a trend happening of parents purchasing oh the places you'll go for their young child and have their teacher at the end of each year sign it with a little note. So by the time you graduate from high school, your book will be full of messages from all their previous teachers.

[A]

Kind of cute.

[B]

I like that idea. I do not think the bureaucratic state of my could we keep it for 18 years? We're going to find it on the last day. You know, all that thing going on. This sounds a little tick tocky Instagram Y to me. I hope people are really enjoying this, but I'd be curious about how many of these actually happened. You know, here's something else to say. A blank notebook would also work. It doesn't need to be other places you'll go.

[A]

Also give those teachers a gift card for something useful when you're asking them to sign these extra things at the

[B]

end of the year to say something about little Tommy.

[A]

I've thought about this stuff a couple times recently. I don't know what reminded me of it, but I think it was my seventh grade English teacher had us do an exercise on the first day of school where we wrote a letter to our future selves about what we felt like on that first day of seventh grade. And she promised that she would mail them to us when we graduated from high school and sure enough, six years later.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

My letter from my former self showed up. But I have thought so many times as an adult like how much organization did that take? And like just extra work that she was doing. We you know we had addressed them to ourselves. Like that was just you know she had to store them somewhere. She was storing these six class sorts of letters at any given time. Lot teachers, man teachers.

[B]

Well presumably she was doing every year. So she just like this year I'm putting this one away. Getting this box out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wonder how many actually made it to their home destination because I do know this is a weird thing for me to know that the average length of residence for someone who owns their home just so rentals I'm assuming are shorter are seven years.

[A]

Oh really?

[B]

The median person has moved from one so maybe there's a forwarding address or something else. Those don't last very long. A nice idea there. Let's see a couple of. I also have some secondary anecdote about the church communities in Theo of Golden. Again, I don't know at what point it becomes more than that data but three responses. One from someone that has my number to text me. We're starting to get a little of those. Thought I would throw that in here. On the popularity of the Illustrated Babysitters club. A not necessarily a new phenomenon with this. These have been selling for a while. Apparently Raina Telgemeier illustrated the first two in this new edition. So that really gave it some Korean. She. I do remember that best selling middle grade graphic novelist I think probably Ghosts. I don't know if that's the best selling one or not. Anyway that's interesting. Another person said they were at their local Scholastic book fair and even though that book was not out yet they were selling it. So that would go into the. She said well that might also go into the pre sales so that it pops on day one. Very cagey for Scholastic who is the publisher of this particular series.

[A]

So really smart.

[B]

This is not. It sounds like there's definitely some momentum behind this. That's not. It's not been something like this for 15 years but it's not random either. There's some. There's some water flowing into the river on that side I think. I think that's it right there. Okay, so that's the follow up for us there. We're going to take our first sponsor break and get into the news of the week. Have you ever rearranged your furniture and discovered the carpet underneath looks brand new,

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[B]

right, Rebecca, where are we at with the hundred greatest novels of all time as judged by the people who responded to the Guardian's survey of the greatest novels of all time?

[A]

Well, at last report they had made it up to number 20, so now we have finally seen the last 20, which are. I'll just read these top 20. I think it's interesting. Wuthering Heights, the Life and Opinions of Tristram shandy, gentleman persuasion, 100 years of solitude Nights.

[B]

Have you read Life and Opinions? Sorry, Rebecca, have you ever read Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy?

[A]

I have not.

[B]

Okay, just think I should. It's a weird. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have interrupted. We'll come back to me at the end. I'll give Jeff's commentary after. I should have waited till they were all done so.

[A]

Wuthering Heights, the Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Persuasion 100 Years of Solitude, 1984, Moby Dick, Mrs. Dalloway, Emma Bleak House, the Great Gatsby, Madame Bovary, Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, War and Peace, Anna Karenina In Search of Lost Time, to the Lighthouse, Ulysses, Beloved and Middle March. And one of the things we were wondering about last week was what's the vote gap between the Top vote getters and the lowest on this list of 100, Middlemarch got 56 votes. In the number one position way back at 100 was Maya Antonia by Willa Cather. It had four votes. So big difference. Let's look at the middle. Right in the middle, number 15.

[B]

You and a couple of friends could have gotten your new A couple of judges, you could conspire to get something on this list wide.

[A]

Sargasso C by Jean Reese is number 50 that had six votes. So let's see. Where does it really start to get interesting? 25 is Lolita 13 votes.

[B]

This is not even a quarter of the number.

[A]

Yeah. No. Now I'm really curious. Where does it start to get heavy? 20 is Wuthering Heights, 15 votes, which

[B]

is not that different.

[A]

Not that different.

[B]

13 is that different.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Jeff. 15 is Moby Dick with 18 votes. Well, let's move up 10 is Madame Bovary with 19 votes. What are we doing here?

[B]

Well, so that's really interesting. Continue. But I've got some. I've got some thoughts.

[A]

In search of lost time, it picks up at the very top. In search of lost time got 27 votes. Is in the fifth position to the lighthouse is number four with 31 votes. Ulysses, number three with 36 votes. There's a 20 vote gap between number three and number one. And then beloved at number two with 43 votes.

[B]

So I should have done this before because I have no way of proving this, but I would have predicted nine out of the top 10 novels on the list. Now, I'm not saying that those would have been my votes, but I think I have a very good sense of what people think the best novels.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Rather than what they are. And this confirmed because it's clustered at the top. Now, if you asked me to get 20, the top 20, I'd be like, I don't know what to do with 10 to 20. But the top 10, I knew Middlemarch was going to be one. I knew Ulysses going to be up there. I. The one I would have gotten. I'm pretty sure I would have gotten wrong is to the lighthouse. I would have flopped it with Mrs. Dalloway, which is at 14. That's just because I like Mrs. Dalloway a little bit better. But to the lighthouse. But, you know, you get in search of lost time, you get Anna Karena, you get two. You get the two Tolstoys back to back. You get Jane Eyre, you get and get Madame Bovary. Like by and especially, this is English western, not Just Western, but Anglophone. These are kind of the novels people talk about. So I. I don't see any in the top 20. This is the chalk for me personally.

[A]

Pretty expected.

[B]

It gets interesting. Where's my first real surprise? The God of small things at 32, I would not have had that high. I would not have guessed that high. This is not about my own internal. Then from there my next surprise, you know, his housekeeping at 43.

[A]

Yeah, I think the God of Small Things. I mean I love that book, but I think this reflects that. It's a Guardian list with a lot of UK based listeners or voters because that won the booker and that is really what broke.

[B]

And maybe a lot of English speaking Indian folks there who are from India, Pakistan, who also. The book is about many of the things there. So what happens is this becomes a pretty uninteresting list. The 100 to 50 to me is much more interesting.

[A]

Yeah, I will say when we were starting to plan zero to well read, I did all the googling of all the existing lists of best novels of all time, best books of all time, most important, whatever, and just like collated a ton. And I don't think there's really anything on this list that I haven't already looked at.

[B]

Yeah, I asked about life and opinion of Trisha and Sham because I knew that would be high up there. But not many Americans have read this. It's a 19th century comic work. It is a shambling mess of an exploration and I don't know, I had to read it in college in a. In a comedy class, which I liked, but I really slogged through it. Now it's again 30 years ago since I read it. That's a very English pick. I think to a lot of Americans that would be like, what the hell is that book? Yeah, 20.

[A]

I couldn't for a billion dollars have told you what that book was about. I'm looking at the Guardians write up of it right now and they say released in nine volumes. Stern's anarchic exper Experimental anti novel is a metafictional autobiography in which the lead character isn't born until several volumes in. Yeah, that's. Carry on everybody. Have a good time out there. But I don't think I'm signing up for that anytime soon.

[B]

It's if Ulysses was a little funnier and 100 years older. I mean, so that's kind of what that thing is going on. At the same time, I will say I was very chuffed to see Beloved at number two, both for Morrison For Americanness, for the subject matter and just my own taste. Is there anything on this list your own again? I haven't read all these books. Most people haven't read all these books though I've read a good chunk of them. Anything that you would switch around, move up or down?

[A]

Oh, it's a good question. I mean my personal preferences would move, you know, Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice lower and I would cycle up some of the more modern stuff. But I'm glad to see, you know, like Remains of the day at 24. I would have had never let me go up much higher.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But of course a heavily British voting body is going to pick Remains of the Day over and over. Let me go. Their eyes were watching. God. I think I would have had higher up.

[B]

39 British list is pretty good. Yeah. I agree with you.

[A]

Having revisited that recently. Yeah. Personal stuff.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I think this is pretty solid. It's a pretty solid list. I. I did their little. Have you read this? And I've read 40 out of the 100.

[B]

I did not do that. I'm guessing 75.

[A]

Ish. That's at the top doctorate over there. So.

[B]

Well, it's just long. It just had to do this in school. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

I think I was thinking about in this. Maybe we could do our own episode about this. Are the 10 book. The 10 novels we think are the best different than favorite? It's like, what. What would I do if I was given this ballot? What would I do? And John Warner on his sub stack, the bibliophile was talking about like how he didn't like Don Quixote. I can't believe it's historical. I certainly get that it would be in my top 10. But I like Don Quixote. I. I do have a hard time not taking some historical importance into account. I have a very hard time of just getting my personal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Taste out because that's how I think and that's how I understand these lists. But even having said that, I think Middlemarch is way up there and I'm not going to spoil something else. Middlemarch is way up there. I prefer Anna Karena to War and Peace. That's me. As you can tell, this is. I do too close on this. I was surprised to see. I did. I was surprised to see. Was Crime and Punishment not in the top 50. I was surprised to see that 69. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That is surprising.

[B]

Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man. You've heard me talk about it a million times. 37 here, which I think is a very good showing for this list. It's in my top five or 10,

[A]

and I think higher up on a list with a more American voting body.

[B]

I wonder. That book seems underrated to me now. I don't know why. I. I don't know. I think Their Eyes Are Watching God is a more accessible book, I think. I think Invisible man is more ambitious in a lot of different ways. I think it. In most lists it should be significantly higher. I think Their Eyes Are Watching God is more red and that's great. But I'm putting Invisible man just. I'm looking at 37 and 39. That's what I'm looking at. The Americans.

[A]

I think you're right. I think Their Eyes Are Watching God and James Baldwin and Richard Wright all sort of cluster to occupy the same space that Invisible man takes up, especially on syllabi, where I also have a preference for Invisible Man.

[B]

But my Antonia being 100 and being on the list at all and Huck Finn not is a. Is crazy work.

[A]

It is wild.

[B]

That's a wild thing to do.

[A]

I think personally I would have had catch 22 up higher. I would have had the Known World up higher. Those are both in the bottom 10.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Delighted to see the Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin make this list at 89.

[B]

Yeah. What is the rare ranking genre? Let's see. I'm just gonna. Do we count 1984 as sci fi? I don't personally. I know technically it is, but I don't. Oh, that's not how I read that book. So how was it.

[A]

Was it read as science fiction at the time, though?

[B]

I mean, I think Dystopia, it's. It's speculative fiction, right?

[A]

Yeah, it's a different. It's not really science fiction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Anyway, Frankenstein number 30 is the highest ranking on the list.

[B]

The highest ranking genre. And even that is also asterisk because it's also like a classic. It was the first of its kind.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you keep going from there, Handmaid's Tale kind of falls in that 1984. If 1980. If 1984 is sci fi, so is Handmaid tailed. And if it's not, neither is Handmaid's Tale. Right. At the same time.

[A]

Oh, never let me go 59. That's a genre feeling. Literary genre.

[B]

But in that same zone, there's not an Agatha Christie. Right. You know, I was just. I'm gonna write about. For the flagship newsletter, I did a video about Agatha Christie's the Murder of Roger ackroyd, which is 100 years old, and by many, including the British Crime Writers or British Mystery Writers association, the number one mystery thriller of all time. I was also thinking about, would I want my top 10 list to capture the best versions of other versions of great novels. Right. Like a great mystery or a great romance, a great sci fi, or just literary fiction across the board. Kindred by Octavia Butler at 71. Here I was like thinking, like, is this a Voyager golden disc? These are the 10 novels we put on a golden disc to show what novels can do kind of a thing. Because in that case, you don't. You don't really need. Do you need Anna Karenina and War and Peace back to back?

[A]

Right.

[B]

You need Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice and Madame V in a row. Maybe not. Maybe not.

[A]

Yeah. I think the Voyager golden disc question will make the most fun episode for us to record together. That's the conversation that I want to have, but I think is the hardest pitch if you're sending out like hundreds of ballots to critics and folks. And it's the hardest. It doesn't, it's not easily summed up.

[B]

So imagine aliens are reading books.

[A]

Right? Right. Or like, okay, so you're sending books into space.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But, but like, you know, also, this is a great search engine play. Best novels of all time. These kinds of lists get passed around. It's. It's a smart content strategy. It makes more sense from that perspective than our weird Voyager golden disc thing. But I, I want to have the conversation about what are we sending into space.

[B]

I have not seen this passed around as much as the New York Times Best books of the century so far. I'm also not online as much as I was even then a few years ago. I've intentionally not done that. But I'm going to take at least even my experience as a proxy for the reason the New York Times list did numbers is it was a surprise. This is not. Oh, I think it's not really a surprise.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's a surprise. And that it's more timely that it was of the 21st century. So far more contemporary readers had read some of those. And then when the readers went to vote for their own favorites of the 21st century, folks were picking the stuff that they had read for their book clubs or because they saw it in the New York Times Book Review. Like, this is a durable a document like best novels of all time, but it's not very different from, like, one you would have written 10 or 20 or 50 or 100 years ago.

[B]

Well, really the top. In the top 20, there's only two books that were written in the last hundred years. Like this is calcified. Right. Three books not last.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So yeah, it feels.

[A]

This feels like English class syllabus.

[B]

Yeah. Even though a lot of them are. I should have done the breakdown of translation. But yeah, lit class of various kind surveys. That's not a critique. These are all great books. I mean that's the other thing. It's like Middlemarch is amazing. If you haven't read bleak house number 12 and you like well, books. But I think Americans, I wonder if Dickens Americans have a different sense of than the Brits because I think a lot of people would be surprised to see Bleak House over David Copperfield or Great Expectations. But I'm not surprised. As someone who knows how the Brits and like the people who love Dickens, Bleak House is the one. I had a real tough time getting through Bleak House, I'll admit that. Okay, cool. We got a lot out of that. But I think the most important thing is our alien disc officially on the

[A]

list for a future episode.

[B]

Officially on to the list. Where is Daredevil?

[A]

I'm right here.

[B]

Don't miss the return of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again. So what's next? I feel liberated. We're gonna take this city back over medicated in an all new season now streaming only on Disney. Plus. They're hunting us.

[A]

It's time we started hunting them.

[B]

I can work with them.

[A]

This should be tons of fun.

[B]

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[A]

treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[B]

During Memorial Day at Lowe's shop household must haves for less save $80 on a char broil performance series four burner grill to chef up something special plus get up to 45% off select major appliances. Keep things fresh. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Lowe's we help you save valid through 527 while supplies last selection varies by location. See lowe's.com for details.

[A]

Visit your nearby Lowes.

[B]

The winner of the international booker Prize. Rebecca, speaking of works in translation, is the world's most influential award for translated fiction. Boy, will the booker tell you. So it's in the. It's the bold list here. What won the International Booker Prize?

[A]

A book called Taiwan Travelogue by Yang Shuangzi, translated by Lynn King. And this is. Let's see. Oh, I just lost my synopsis. What do you know about Taiwan?

[B]

I lost it too.

[A]

I've got it. I've got it. Okay, let's see. Can love overcome a power imbalance? It teases out the nuances of this question against the backdrop of 1930s Taiwan under Japanese colonial rule. It's a. This is a romance, a novel that deals with these bigger questions of colonialism. And I've seen a good bit of the coverage celebrating the fact that it's a romance. We don't see love stories win these kinds of awards very often. It's not a category or traditional romance. I cannot tell you if it has a happy ever after. I'm not sure.

[B]

Right. So ergo, it is not a romance capital after.

[A]

But it is a romance story. It might have a happily ever after. I'm not positive about the reviews that I have seen and I'm kind of circling around reading this. I'm trying not to, yeah, I'm trying like not to learn too much about it. But the reviews that I've seen say that it is equally successful on the romance front as on the critique and exploration of colonialism front, which is really interesting.

[B]

Hard to do, takes the form of a fictional translation of a rediscovered Japanese travel memoir. So if you and I read this in English, we will be reading a translation of a fictional translation of a Japanese travel memoir. Sounds cool. If you've read this or know anything about it, shoot us an email. Podcastookriot.com always an interesting book. And if you asked me to pick one prize in which I would get it wrong 1000% of the time, probably

[A]

the winner, the International Booker.

[B]

International Booker would be one other kinds of news. For those of you who are storygraph users or Goodreads users who are reluctantly looking for a different place or people that would like some sort of reading log, social media community and don't know about storygraph, this is a good chance for us to talk about storygraph, which is a platform for book lovers you can review and they have a bunch of cool integrations there and the newest integration with the Kobo. So if you're the kind of reader who's reading digitally, especially because Kobo is a digital reading platform you can now integrate with storygraph to keep track of things. You can log your time and progress and do all the kinds of things that you can do with Goodreads and Kindle. I'll just say it Rebecca. That's yeah, that's what the comp for this is. Now you have a fuller reading experience here.

[A]

Kobo's reading app already has really good stats. Keep track of a bunch of different things about your reading habits so you can integrate your story graph and just make that more robust. Really. It dovetails nicely with another of our stories this week. A little further down the agenda, but I think we can jump to it. Amazon announced this week that effective as of May 20th so it's over by the time you're listening to this. They are no longer supporting Kindles that were purchased or that were released in 2012 and earlier. So the very first few years of Kindle models you can still read ebooks that you have purchased on them, but you can no longer buy new ebooks for those devices. It must just like this happens in technology. 2012 is 14 years ago. There are not that many 14 year old or 15 or 16 year old kindles still floating around, but there's enough of them that the people who own them are mad about this. Amazon trying to ameliorate it a bit with some discounts on new devices and some ebook credits if you want to make the switch. But if you're, if you are one of those people who somehow is holding on to a 14 year old Kindle and this is your moment to make a leap, I do think it's worth looking at jumping to a Kobo device that you can integrate with storygraph have basically the same functionality that you have have with a Kindle and the Goodreads integrations that Amazon has had without all of the mishigas that comes with Amazon.

[B]

Yeah, I, I think this is a pretty good run for those original Kindles. We're looking at 14 years now. I mean this happens with your phone, with your Mac, with your desktop. At some point they're going to stop being supported. I think it's a testament to how good those early Kindles were and how revolutionary and useful the original E Ink screens are that the new ones are better, but marginally so rather than like meaningfully so. My phone is a lot better than it was 14 years ago. Camera, battery, everything else but a Kindle with an E screen still pretty damn good. So I can understand there if it's any consolation, a entry level Kobo or Kindle or nook that are like 80 bucks are really good too. So I know it sucks to have to spend more money, but. But if you have to spend $80 every 14 years for E reading device, I think that's on the technological curve. You're doing pretty well.

[A]

But yeah, I would start applying the math that I'm applying if I'm buying, like, a pair of jeans that are more expensive than I want to be, where I'm like, well, I'm going to wear them every day for three years. So just let's amortize out the cost per wear.

[B]

I agree. Yeah.

[A]

You've gotten your value out of a Kindle you bought in 2012.

[B]

Right. Though it's just an unexpected expense for someone who doesn't really.

[A]

Yeah, that sucks.

[B]

Want the upgrade here. Speaking of things that no. Once James Daunt I have. I'm not sure if I have sympathy for his position. Anyway, the story is that James Daunt gave some quotes about Barnes and Noble being open to selling AI written books. Right now. I'm not sure you can say much more in the book community about AI written books and, like, have a lower approval rating. This is also true, I should say. Rebecca, I saw an interesting survey of all Americans. AI people just hate AI. They just hate it.

[A]

Well, because all the headlines are like, AI is going to take your job. And.

[B]

And it sucks.

[A]

And it sucks. None of it's as magical as it was promised.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So here. Saying it open. And I think the nuance here, insofar as their one is like, as long as it was properly labeled. I think the thing Don was trying to say is, like, we will not carry books that are. That is essentially fraud. Saying it's written by this person. That person doesn't exist. But if people want this stuff, we will carry it. Which is the sort of expedient, practical, pragmatic answer that a retailer might give. We will sell people things. We will sell things people want in our category. And maybe there will become a time when your favorite AI model can pump out books that others can't and they're branded as such and they're there. And if there's demand for them, James do will carry them. I guess I'm not thrilled with that idea from a retailer, but also, what is a bookstore supposed to do? That's kind of where I land on this. This. I also don't want this and will never buy one of them knowingly.

[A]

So there I am to, like, step up a level. I am really over the making of stories that aren't stories about AI things like, it's in the news. Everybody, like, I understand why reporters feel like they need to ask everyone a question about it, but then it turns into these headlines that are like, Barnes and Noble CEO says he's pro AI and like that, it gets a ton of clicks and then people get mad about it.

[B]

On TikTok, I saw Goody Smith with the Devil.

[A]

Exactly. Like, it's. It's not. There's not really a story here because as you were saying, like, it hinges on if there is demand for this. And so far, there is no social proof that there is going to be demand for AI generated books that are clearly labeled, as Dante's saying here, as being AI generated. I also agree that it's a smart thing for a retailer to say. Our job is to sell the things people want to the people. And so, like, if there were tons of demand as a business, it would make sense for them to consider that because that's what their customer is asking for. I do not see a near or midterm future where their customer is asking for that. So I don't think we're actually looking at a real possibility of you walking into a Barnes and Noble and seeing not even a shelf full, but one AI generated book that's labeled AI Generated on a Barnes and Noble shelf. And also it would have to sell once it was there to continue being in those stores because we all know that shelf space is limited. They're looking for a sales history like this was him answering a question he probably didn't want to answer because frankly, it's kind of a dumb question if you're paying any attention to the actual environment here. But then it spins up all of this. Like, there are just tons of headlines now of, oh, my God, Barnes and Noble is going to sell AI generated books. That's not actually what they've said. And if you're watching the taking the temperature in the industry at all, it seems very unlikely that this will happen.

[B]

If. Okay, let's play PR doctor here for a second. Say. I say we were James 10 days ago and we hadn't got lobbed one of these questions. Someone said, will Barnes and Noble or Waterstones ever sell AI written books? I see sort of three paths. One is what he did, which is kind of the realist model. Like I said, like, well, you know, if people want them, then that's our job and we'll carry them. So that's. One second would be, no, we're never selling AI written books. Is there a third Is the third just. I can't imagine it, but who knows what the future holds? And we'll just have to see. Is that. Is that a middle ground?

[A]

I think that's a middle ground. There would also be a, like, if you wanted to take more of a stance about copyright, because he does say it here that, like, it has to be clearly. People want it. It has to be clearly labeled, and it can't be ripping somebody else off. Now, he didn't go into detail about what ripping somebody else off means, but there's a version of this that's, you know, we're really concerned about what's going on with copyright. We want to support working human writers first. Like, we're not even going to have these conversations about AI generated books until some of these cases work their ways through the court.

[B]

Yeah. Coming from the other side, really on the. That's. That's on the supplier side, but on the supply side. A breakthrough story this week was about the Commonwealth Prize that honored a couple of short stories that appear to have been written in some parts, partially in one case entirely. If you believe the other AI that's pointing at the other. It's like the spider man pointing at each other meme. The only way we're doing this is to. Is to use that. That's the. There was some suspicion. It sounds like this is how this story happens. Some people are reading these and these weren't. These are sort of regional winners. This was not the main Commonwealth Prize, and I don't know enough about the judging to speculate, but I'm wondering if these get a little less scrutiny because they are not. Not the. The main event. I don't know. I read the one story that was the most seemingly egregious. Lincoln Michael did a really good breakdown of that story in his substack. And I will say, I said a while ago that AI had reaches this uncanny valley where it feels like. Like, yes and no. Like that's not a person. But I also know it's not a person. We're a little closer to canny, but there's a couple. There's some hallmarks and. And I can't put my finger on it until you start looking at individual sentences. And I was biased because I knew that this was being accused of it, but I was like this. Really. I see what the thing is here. And my backup for this is I wrote in the Book Riot flagship newsletter last week. Or was it earlier this week? I can't remember. I think it was for the Tuesday send. I'M pretty sure, or my guess is that this list that JP Morgan put out about the best books for wealthy people to read this summer was AI generated. Like I'm pretty sure. Did you read that? Did you read whatever.

[A]

I did see that. And they're just lucky that all the books were real and it didn't hallucinate. Yeah, if that's what happened.

[B]

But, but the right. Not only the writings, all with the selections, one of them was a book, was a recipe book for about lemons and one of them was Hong Kong Light and Thread. And I read that book and it's a really interesting book. But the description of that was like factually right but spiritually wrong headed and pointed in the right direction. And I don't. So we're up to a line where it can fool some people. I also would encourage people to look, if you're interested in the story, look at the citation written for the book that was mostly accused of being written by AI And I'll say no more about it. Do you hear what I'm saying? Rebecca's picking.

[A]

I do, I do. I hear what you're saying. You know, our colleague Danica Ellis was talking about this in Today in books earlier this week. That or I guess last week as most folks are listening to this, that maybe this is just where we are now with AI accusations. Like is everything that wins a prize or gets some kind of visibility going to be not subject to extra scrutiny? Because certainly like prize winners should live up to scrutiny. But this hurling an AI accusation is a really easy way right now to tank the publicity for a book. There are also sentences in just about every book that sound like they could be AI generated because I have news for you about what AI was fed on. And like we've got to do some. I don't, I feel like we need to like create some new ground that we're all standing on about. Like what are we talking about when we talk about an AI accusation? And does it even mean anything when there is no replicable way to produce evidence that a thing was AI generated? And as you were saying at the top of this segment, even the ways to tell if something is AI generated are AI Right.

[B]

So I think you're right. We some different kind of understanding because there's, there's a logical problem at the root of this argument which is you cannot prove a negative. So insofar as you cannot prove as the, let's say, submitter of a document that you have not used AI, there's no proof that you can submit. Right, right. I mean, even a video of you typing out the words by hand, you could always have, you know, like there's just no, there's no getting out of that situation. I do think that one standard should be for these prizes, these story prizes, publishers, agents, whatever, that you figure out what AI detection tool you're going to use and you say you're going to use it and you use it and you have some standard for yourself about how to interpret the results. I don't think they're perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I've never put any of my own writing into one of these things.

[A]

I've been thinking about trying that too, just to see it's totally possible. It might be like, yeah, the Handmaid's Tale AI generated.

[B]

I don't know the answer to that. At the Atlantic they have some tool called Pangram, which they, they claim to have a 1 in 10,000 false positive rate. I don't know how you prove that. I'd be curious. But I think there's going to be a market, capital, ethical, cultural, for a first blush pass at it. Because I think if the Commonwealth Story Prize had done this and they had gotten a hundred, we think there's a very high chance stricter scrutiny from the gatekeepers using the tools at their disposal is the only way through this. I don't see another way to do it because you don't want crowdsourced accusations that way lays madness, Rebecca.

[A]

It does, it does. And there is no, of course, there's also just no way, as you were saying, to prove otherwise for, for these writers who were accused of it. So if these writers did not use AI to generate their stories, now when you Google their prize winning story, this is the thing that comes up like it's. This is incredibly difficult. So I think the owner, the onus should go to the prizes, the publishers and maybe even if you are submitting a book for consideration of a prize, you've gotta like tick some box and sign a statement affirming that you wrote this book.

[B]

Or like a clearinghouse. That's an interesting idea. Like, what if there's like submittable, but for AI check, we say I submitted to the story. Here's the, I don't know the report it gave. Right. And I'm gonna, I'm submitting it with that report attached so that you know and I know where this manuscript would hold up to scrutiny or otherwise. Cause you now need to assume that people are gonna check it. And so you gotta do it ahead of time. There's a market for something like this.

[A]

I think you should just assume that whether they're actually going to check it or not, people are gonna wonder about just about everything.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And, and that also kind of leads me to another story. I don't think I put it on our agenda this week because frankly, it annoyed me a lot. But now I'm going to talk about it because I'm already annoyed. Jeff, it's great that Nobel Prize winner Olga Takarczyk mentioned in a recent interview that she was giving, she made some reference to using AI and she's speaking in Polish. It was translated into English. Some English speaking readers glommed onto. Olga Takarczyk has mentioned that she uses AI and it became, oh my God, Olga Tokarczyk writes her books with AI. And now she's had to give a statement clarifying that. And the clarification that she has made is that she uses AI when she's doing background research. One of the examples she gave was like, that she's looking at settings for her books and the timelines and thinking about what kinds of movies and music and stuff would my characters be interested in given these time frames. She has said she writes the words that are in her novels. So we really have got to come around to some, like, what do we mean, mean when we say a book was written with AI? Are the words AI generated? Or did the author use AI in some part of their research process? Because I know that people do not want to admit that this is true, but AI, it can be a more effective time efficient tool for research than a Google search. And now if you're using Google, you're using AI anyway.

[B]

Yeah. There's no way out of it. Right? Yeah.

[A]

You know, like if Olga Tokarczyk was gonna go Googling like top songs of 1963 or whatever, and she put that query into Claude instead. I don't think she's committed some crime against art.

[B]

And that's not where my line is. For me personally, that's not where my line is. I should say I don't, I don't know. I will use it. Oh, go ahead, finish that.

[A]

Yeah, but the headlines still set it up as like, Olga Takarchik commits crimes against art by touching AI at all. And like, if that's where we're trying to be, that's not where I'm trying to be. But if that's where.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The literary establishment is trying to be, first of all, it's not going to work. And also, like, let's give some credit. She is a Nobel prize winning novelist. Even if she had written the sentences of that thing with AI she's not going to come out and say it like no one is going to admit it.

[B]

Yeah, very, very tough. I mean it's going to be. This is the messy middle right. I don't know what lies on the other side of this is a very uncomfortable place for authors, publishers, writers to read. But I will say this to the publisher, the publishers it's time to gatekeep and you got. You need new gatekeeping tools. Laura McGrath When I talked about middlemen she. She said you know in agents are gatekeepers and we want. You want them on the wall. You need me on that wall gatekeepers and you now have another part of your job which is to do what you can to know what you are buying or not buying. Lying. I'm not even saying that to say that you. I don't myself I am not interested right now in reading AI generated tests at for my literature reading book reading brain. I'm not reading. I'm not really interested in that at all. I find it increasingly less useful. I don't really even use it for research that much anymore because it's really bad about hallucinating books especially and it gets stuff wrong all the time. So again I don't trust it for those things either. The only thing I really trust it for a structuring data like spell and grammar check for structured data is kind of the only thing I'm finding myself using it for right now which again if you don't like that I can certainly understand that. But I do wonder this is a question you and I were talking about two and a half three years ago and started happening. The accusation that something's written by AI is actually different from this question which is did I like this thing that I'm writing reading. Those are separate questions. And I think what people want is to be able to have two stories both alike in dignity like Montague's and Capulets and be able to choose between the one that was human written. I'm using all the air quotes in world because I don't know and the one that was not And I'm. I'm just finding that given within the absence of some sort of structured regulation about these things being available at all all I don't think there's clarity that we're going to get from that Rebecca. I really don't so some sort of clearinghouse, some sort of understanding in cases of plagiarism is going to be strange. Cases of fraud might be even at the stake. But each individual reader can't do this by ourselves. This is when we need the institutions to like really step up and say here's our plan. Now I saw Jeff Vandermeer gave it really interesting comment. I don't remember where I saw thought might have been Facebook of all places about. He wrote a piece for the New York Times and they had a very strict AI use writer. I don't know, waiver or whatever. And he was really impressed by it. So maybe, let's maybe see we can get a hold of what that looks like and see what this does. Because I think you do have an honor system thing. But I also think the New York Times or the. The institutions can develop these tools and buy some tools and so and build their own tools. What can we look for and how we're gonna look for it? And then they can be transparent with us. And then this stuff doesn't break contain. We have to do all this expose facto finger pointing and denial which doesn't help anybody. Doesn't get us anywhere.

[A]

That's right. And I wish that I had more confidence that publishing would do this. But like the consistency with which there are, you know, big nonfiction books or memoirs that are found to be plagiarized or falsified or, or something like that because mainstream publishers don't regularly employ fact checkers. If we have gone centuries of publishing without real fact checking, I don't have a ton of faith that we're going to spin up a bunch of structural ways to keep AI written texts out of mainstream publishing. I certainly hope that publishers will. I know that no one wants AI written books to be coming out from Penguin Random House with a huge human's name on them and to be for readers to feel tricked. I also think that there's a readerly ego thing that's on the line too where no one wants to read a book that they like and then find out it was generated by AI.

[B]

No one gets suckered in by the clankers. No one wants to admit that the. Their beautiful unique human soul connected to a probability model.

[A]

Yeah. And you know, I, I do this thing on my Instagram when I'm traveling where I do little like quick book reviews of covers that I'm seeing in HUDS News. And I made a joke a couple weeks ago when I was snapping the COVID of the Housemaid by Freda McFadden that it's not AI generated, but if it came out today, we would be saying all these Freedom McFadden books are AI generated. And the only reason that an author with like a bajillion copy self published backlist is not getting accused of that right now, is that all we had all of her books before ChatGPT came out. But somebody whose work or like James Patterson would probably be subject to these kinds of accusations. Anybody whose work is like formulaic and repetitive and a pretty basic reading level in the writing, like there's not a lot of art happening in the sentence construction is people are going to be looking at those twice now because that's what these tools sound like. And, and I just think none of us want to. You don't want to know that you've been had.

[B]

And I think it's an existential threat for publishers if they don't do this. Because what's their different, their differentiating factor could be we are selecting the best writing that people make out there. There could be a whole nother world of writing and whatever and image and video. But what we are sourcing, we are, you know, organic farmers of literature, of books like we are do. We're trying to do things as right as we understand them. This is what we believe in. This is the business we're in. Because I got to tell you, if you let AI into your castle as a publisher, this is going to be commoditized. This kind of writing is already pretty commoditized. You do not want to commoditize your interest because all they really have is the ability to point attention at something. Now they're doing the selection of what to point attention at. But if they're not doing that and they're letting AI or other LLM stuff into the castle, pretty soon you're going to have a Trojan horse situation which you've got Greeks all over you and Turk in Ilium has fallen and Christopher Nolan's making a movie about you 2500 years later. So I, I think that's all that can be done done. I think your, your point to the historical difficulty, reluctance or non p and l friendliness of actual fact checking as we'd understand it. Is it right? The difference I think is AI generated text checking is a commodity. You don't need a bunch of people on phones checking everyone's things. Like you can put it through the ringer and say do we know this is what even use it to point out? What should I pay more attention to? Right? Which of these things seems less plausible? Who, what phone calls I make or this paragraph of text I gotta tell You. I would suggest sending it back to them to rewrite it again so that even if it's coming up with a false negative or false positive. Pardon me. Go rewrite it. Like solve for the equilibrium, which is I am solving for this thing, giving me a passing grade. Go write it yourself. And you can't do it. If they cannot do it, do not publish them. Don't publish them.

[A]

Yeah, it's a real risk there. And I do think that readers want books that are written by humans. That's what all art is. That there's. There's an essential connection of knowing that a person. This is a real person's thoughts and ideas and creativity and their feelings and. And so much of reading is either having something opened up for you that you didn't know before or feeling seen and having someone put words to an experience that you have felt but have not put words to that that is essentially human. And we want to know that our art is coming from humans. Publishers really, I really do hope that they will invest. Invest in ways to address this. But we are, I think just. This is just the landscape now. You be ready for the accusations.

[B]

Could you imagine a world, you know how on like video games, well, movies, there's like a rating.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Could you imagine a sort of a certification system of some kind where there is some kind of seal of humanity feels. It feels like something out of Orwell. But like, you know, I do like that idea. We use this idea and we did. We did all. And there's. They have this in like architecture where it's called lead, I don't remember. But it's like environmental certification. Like we do all these steps to make this a green, platinum, whatever, environmentally friendly building. And you've got to go through all these steps and the steps are transparent and you can go through them and get different points for it. I could imagine another situation. Like organic is. Organic is a real term. You can't just say organic about stuff. Like in most places, I believe there's.

[A]

It's regulated.

[B]

It's regulated. Right. And I think the industry would be doing us and themselves a wonderful service to think about how can they communicate to us what they're sourcing, but really by the time even gets that point, they should have all their T's crossed and I's dotted about what the text they're generating are. And that's going to take more work. And these, these small literary prizes where they're already short staffed and published. Everyone short staff. I get that all the time. Time. You may not be able to just turn it over to two people and say, pick us a winner and do however you're going to do it. You may not be able to do that. That may, we know, may no longer be in that world where that's feasible or responsible. Okay, let's shout out audio and color nonprofit grants. Rebecca, this was a cool story. I hadn't seen this. Tell, tell me what this is about.

[A]

Oh, yeah. So audio and Color, which you can find@audio and color.org has a partnership with Audience Audible where every year they give grants to help independent authors, romance authors specifically, self publish their first audiobook. It's of course, specifically for writers of color who are looking to. To break out. And you can donate to support this. You can also, if you are an independent romance author and you want to publish your first audiobook, you can apply for one of these grants. They're currently taking the. They're currently taking submission and then there will be judging and announcements later on in the year. But they've done this before. It's been successful. It's a neat partnership to see Audible backing up and, you know, past winners. Great stuff. There's all kinds of info. So either from a reader perspective or if this is something.

[B]

Yeah. Interesting discovery option for a reader.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. That you want to. If you want to support it. Also, if you're out there writing and you're looking to have some financial support for producing your audiobook, take a look at, look at that.

[B]

All right. And with that, it's time for Frontless Foyer, brought to you by ThriftBooks.com ThriftBooks is where you can get really all your new and used book needs in print. That's. That's what we're talking about here. Also movies, books, games. If you're looking for a copy of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, there's a bunch over there. If you're looking for Braiding Sweetgrass, it's interesting. I was looking at, at this. It is hard to find a used copy of Braiding Sweetgrass. People hold on to these things though. You can find the original hardcover for like 25 bucks in like good condition. I'm assuming it's an ex library copy. And I have never seen one of those hardcovers of Brading Sweetgrass because some of them were reprinted and sold. Those hardcovers are really pretty, pretty interesting at the same time. So you can find all kinds of interesting stuff over there and each purchase gets you closer to redeeming for a free book as part of the reading rewards program program and of course, free shipping on orders over $15 in the US on your list this week. One I loved and one I'm very much looking forward to. So I'm I'm not only a user, I'm also the president of the audience member for Frontless Foyer this week.

[A]

So my first pick is on Witness and Repair by Jesmyn Ward. Respair being a now archaic term for the return returning to hope after despair or the return of hope after despair. You can have the noun or the verb form, whatever you choose. These are Jesmyn Word's collected essays from 2008 right on up through last year. They cover all sorts of things. The 2008 essay is the first big one. It is about her experience being in the south in Louisiana during Hurricane Katrina and the people who did not evacuate. That there are essays about motherhood, there is an essay about losing a person very close to her, and of course pieces about also this there's the Witness part, the things that she has seen and the difficult experiences that she's had, and then there is the repair part, the coming back to hope. They're Jesmyn Ward essays and I have read most of them already. But what happened was I was sitting down at the end of last week to start drafting our flagship newsletter, block, about the week's new releases and I knew that On Witness and Respair was gonna be one of my featured titles. And I picked up my copy and I started flipp flipping through thinking I was just gonna find some things, some quotes to pull and I ended up just reading half of it that day. So then I figured I might as well finish. You just can't go wrong with Jesmyn Ward. I'm so glad that she's back on the publishing scene. This is the first of, I think a two book deal that she's got. I believe the next one is a novel. So I will always, I think, be the most excited for a Jesmyn Ward novel. She's of course won the National Book Award twice in her very early publishing career, like once for Salvage the Bones, which was her second book, and once for Sing Unburied Sing, a pretty high hit rate from her. But if you are not familiar with Jesmyn Ward or if you have read some but you're not yet a completist on Witness and Respair is a great book to have on your shelf. And then I listened to London Falling by Patrick Radden Keefe on a road trip last week. I was telling you I've got to get divorced because my husband did not like it.

[B]

I'm so sorry to hear this.

[A]

He. Well, he. I think he liked it just fine, but he wasn't like stoked and I loved it of course. Begins with a young man falling from a balcony of a fancy building in London. And then Patrick Raden Keefe is unspooling the sort of under the London, like the really wealthy London underworld.

[B]

That this overworld or I don't know it. I think it's an overworld of some kind because it's the opposite of seedy and darkened side streets.

[A]

Yeah. That he's like found his way into these criminal operators who are really wealthy and very well connected to all kinds of organizations and places in government. And every time I think I know where we are going, Patrick Raden Keefe uncovers like some other surprising fact or some other connection that I didn't see. And it. I mean it's just wonderful. He is such a phenomenal investigative journalist and he knows how to tell a story. I think the things that were frustrating Bob about it are the things that I really loved. Like he found them to be bugs. But I find it to be a feature that you get like the opening of what is like, this kid is dead. What are we going to do? And then Patrick Raden Keefe zooms out and you spend some time with the other characters and learning their details of their backstories. I have just finished it this morning. So I can say like a lot of those details do turn out to be very relevant by the time the book is all tied together. Like he does bring it home. I guess if you're wanting a really straightforward true crime, this is not it. But if you like literary true crime and a great writer, it's hard to do better than prk.

[B]

PRK doesn't want. Seemingly doesn't want to write a book that's not about a bigger idea or a larger phenomenon or more central questions at the same time. Like a straight ahead whodunit, which this could have been. Right. Like he's interested in the effects essentially of enormous amounts of primarily Russian money coming into London's social scene. And then that combined with what social media would you say? Like those are sort of the two things together and then aspiration and class and things that go into it at the same time. Yeah, I thought it was really this. I think it's also fascinating what questions you do not get answered. And I could imagine there's a version of this for some people that find that very frustrating. I Also think, and I don't know if you, if you clock this as well, there's more of his own story of getting involved in this case or case or. I don't remember him doing that before. I could have glossed over to Empire Pain or these other sort of things, but I do not remember him being like, and then I was in a coffee shop talking to this person. And then their family. Family gave me their stuff. And then after the book, like, the family came with them to the launch later. Like that part is in the adaptation. I think getting a little of that involved would be super interesting. His own experience of investigating this is not as interesting as a central story. But I think you could make another line if you're going to stretch this into eight episodes or whatever. One or two episodes could be about that.

[A]

And I did really wonder, like, I liked that, but I noticed noticed it. It comes in pretty late in the book where he starts to tell you how he found out about this story and came to be investigating it. I would love to know if that was part of his original plan for telling this or if it's a note he got. Because I have heard that this is a note that agents and editors are giving. Nonfiction writers pretty often is, like, put more of yourself in here. Because then you satisfy the reader that wants that investigative journalism piece, but you also satisfy those readers who are looking for. It's relatable and I connect it to the writer. I don't care for that generally. Like, I don't think you need the gimmick. Patrick Raden Keefe is great, but I enjoyed it in this book, hearing more from him and how he came to

[B]

know about the story because I think the family's own, I mean, obvious grief, but also curiosity and doggedness is part of the story of what happened here in this particular case. So I'm glad that you liked it.

[A]

It was worth waiting on.

[B]

Vanessa liked it. I mean, I think think most people. Sorry, Bob. Are gonna. Are gonna dig that. Where's Bob on pirates, by the way? We had a recommendation request for Pirates is he likes IC books.

[A]

Do you know, I. I don't know if he's read anything about pirates. I'll have to ask him. Currently, the excitement in our house is that the Virginia Museum of History and Culture is doing a tall ships situation next month for America 250.

[B]

What if, what if, what if? What else could there be from maritime museums? I'm in the middle of a couple things I'm not ready to talk about because I don't know what I'm going to come down on them. I do have one thing that I read this week. Frog and other essays by the great Anne Fadiman.

[A]

Oh yeah, I read this earlier this year.

[B]

Oh, you did? I didn't remember. You know, I'm sorry, I don't know if I talked about it. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I, you know, great. You know, people writing non fiction, creative writers doing creative writing things. Things. Not every essay was amazing, but a couple of them I really found quite moving. Especially the. I believe it was the last one about her one time student, Marina Keegan, who died tragically young. There was a book that came out later called the Opposite of Loneliness, that she was a phenomenon, she was going to be a star and hearing her write about that was quite normal. What I got is it sounds pretty great to be a creative nonfiction writer teacher at Yale. Just the amount of time and just the level of student and the whole thing sounds great. Maybe I'll be reincarnated as a creative nonfiction instructor at Yale.

[A]

I just find Ann Fadiman so charming, like just one of our great contemporary weirdos. But she's so charming about it that it's like, here's a whole essay, but was it a frog that had died?

[B]

Their family pet frog, it begins, and they don't really like their pet frog, but it's still what happens.

[A]

Yeah, the family frog dies and is in the freezer for like years because they're waiting for the right time for everybody to get together and you know, put the. Lay the frog to rest. And there, there's kind of only one version of that essay that is charming and it's the. An Fadiman version.

[B]

Yes. Speaking. Speaking of, I think her essay in this collection about pronouns really good is very good. It is neither recalcitrant nor, I don't know, uncompromising. Right. She is working through her own response as a grammarian, as a writer, as a person, as a person who's lived through some things and is older but also is around younger people. I think people with ears to hear about grammar and language and inclusion and that sort of thing, they're working through it themselves or maybe know someone who does. I think this is about as good as you're gonna get about. Here's my way of thinking, here's I came to it and here's other conditions. I'm trying to take it all seriously, but I'm also not going to pretend that it came naturally or without some resistance because this is new. I thought it was a pretty Cool document at the same time. And then in real Anfadam and ways, her stuff about Samuel Taylor Coleridge and his son. That was like my favorite. I'm not going to recommend it because I don't know what people care, but there's a whole bunch of stuff about fathers and sons and influence and being estranged and how those things happen, but each one of them is different. And a little bit of a Skinner's box of what's going to come next, which is part of the fun. It's not very long. I think it was like five hours on audio, which is how I did it. And then I read. I did go and buy a copy because I wanted to slow down with the. What was the I'm sorry with the Marina Keegan section a little bit there. So that's Frog and other essays by AN Fadiman. I think maybe I just want essays by great writers about whatever topics fascinate them. Maybe that would be the genre. My desert island genre.

[A]

Ooh. Yes. Just smart, interesting people being smart and

[B]

interesting because it's kind of like picking the complete Shakespeare. You get a little bit of everything right. You're not really locking yourself into one.

[A]

Yeah. Like essays, they can just hold so much. You can get Zadie Smith, you can get Anne Fadiman.

[B]

Get all. Everybody in between over there. All right, that's our show. She's an email podcast. Bookriot.com check out zero to well read. Braiding sweetgrass is out now, as is our interview with the great Namali Serpell about her book on Morrison. And then coming next week or tomorrow, as you're listening to this, we get to have the joyful task of talking about Douglas's as Douglas Adams, much imitated, never replicated. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. As always, the Book Riot Podcast is a proud member of the Airwave Podcast network. Different Anything we're supposed to do in the outro, Rebecca? I was trying to do it from memory and I kind of froze there for a second.

[A]

I don't think so. Okay, well done.

[B]

Great. Thank you very much. We'll talk to you all later. Every Sunday, we talk about the week's tech news on this Week in Tech. Hi, this is Leo Laporte inviting you to join me. Harper Reed, AI guru. Amy Webb, futurist. We talk about the week's tech News. All those CEOs going with the president to China. What did they accomplish? Jensen Huang, hitching a ride in Alaska. And why backpacks suddenly got so terrible. Tune in, twit. Every Sunday. You'll find it at Twit TV or wherever you get your podcasts.