← Book Riot - The Podcast
Book Riot - The Podcast
Book Sales Are Softening, NBCC Winners, and More Book News.
00:53:09
Jeff and Rebecca talk about a transitional moment in book sales, National Book Critics Circle Winners, National Black Bookstore Day, recent reading, and much more.
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- [00:02]
Fandango Sponsor
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- [00:28]
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- [00:55]
Jesse
This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Je and I'm Rebecca Schinsky. Today there's a lot of adaptation news, Rebecca, but also two stories I think one of them today, the other one maybe yesterday that print is not publishing is not doing amazing all of a sudden and I don't really know why kind of suddenly from a modest over performance over the last couple, but we're gonna talk about that. Some winners. I don't know, kind of, you know, regular sort of ish news day.
- [01:22]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, a good variety stuff that's been happening in publishing, like core state of the business kind of stuff. As you were saying, award winners and then some potpourri.
- [01:34]
Jesse
Yeah, let's see some housekeeping types of things. It's almost time for moms, dads and grads. Recommendation season for those who've been with us and have heard this before, we do this twice a year, once around the holiday times and once around this time of year also could be summer reading can be for you. It's really an occasion for us to do a recommendation show. So in order to do that we need recommendation requests which you can submit to podcastookriot.com couple tell us as much as you want to let us know if we can use your name several times. Sometimes we get requests from people who think that their giftee may also listen so we can obscure and blur and obfuscate relative details if that makes sense to you. A real good fun time for us that what's over on Zero to well read right now.
- [02:26]
Rebecca Schinsky
Rebecca Much Ado About Nothing is over on Zero to well read right now. We had a grand old time with Benedict and Beatric and the whole gang over there. One more round with the Bard Yep.
- [02:38]
Jesse
A couple of comments on the zero to, well Patreon. Like oh my God, I was so excited to see this. A lot of stealth. Beatrice and Benedict heads out there, which makes sense.
- [02:46]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah.
- [02:47]
Jesse
Speaking of Patreon on this Patreon showing up later this week, early next week. We're recording right after this session. We're going to talk about our favorite debuts of the last 10 years. We're going year by year. We will just pick. I'm guessing we'll have quite a bit of overlap, but probably a couple things that are a little bit different. I'll tip my hand here. I kept it to debut novels per reason. We can talk about there. Which actually leads to a couple of weird inclusions that I also felt great and terrible about, which maybe there's more to say about that. If you're interested, go check out the Patreon over there. I think that's enough telling you about other things we're doing, so why don't we just go ahead and do the thing you came here to listen to right after this break.
- [03:31]
Various Sponsors
Today's episode is brought to you by Poetry Magazine. Wishing you a happy Poetry Month this April Book Riot fans are invited to celebrate poetry all year long with a special deal. Subscribe to one year of Poetry and receive a free limited edition notebook. Practice Makes Poetry and we'd like to offer you a space for your own reflections and creativity. The subscription includes 10 beautifully curated print issues of Poetry Immediate unlimited digital access via the Poetry Magazine app and the Premium Poetry Month notebook. Your subscription to Poetry supports living artists and a living art form which this cutting edge publication has been championing for more than 110 years. Be a part of Poetry's present and future future. Subscribe today@poetry.org takenote Take note is one word, so no slashes or spaces there. Again, that's poetrymagazine.org Take note. And thanks again to Poetry Magazine for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by Philip A. Sugars, author of the Lighthouse at the End of the world. Oyster McClellan has spent his life causing mischief, but when a simple money drop goes wrong, he finds himself washed up on a beach, surrounded by broken phones and shattered office furniture. His new world Greater London, a city built on the detritus of our own, where leviathans crafted from broken skyscrapers roam the sea, where ink beetles nestle beneath the skin of its residents, and where Oyster's father, Lucas, may well have escaped to all those years ago. This is a fast paced multiversal adventure featuring warring gods, snarky con artist kids and an elderly escapologist who had a thing for Houdini. So it's got all the things going on in all the best ways. It's a fast paced debut novel perfect for fans of V E Schwab, the invention of Genevieve Cogman and the anarchy of Alan Moore. Also, it's Barnes and Noble's speculative fiction Pick of the month for April. Big things popping for the lighthouse at the end of the world. Make to pick it up. And thanks again to Philip A Suckers for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by Tidewater Press Publishing nonfiction that enlightens as it entertains. It's the publisher of Ice in Their Veins, Women's relentless pursuit of the Puck by Ian Kennedy Hockey wasn't meant to include girls, not originally. Women attracted to the speed, the finesse, the physicality of the game had to overcome condescending attitudes, lack of resources, legal barriers and even sexual assault in their quest for legitimacy and ice time. For more than 150 years, their gender was questioned, monitored, hidden, disparaged and trivialized. Even so, teams were formed and stars emerged. From the miracle made of the early 20th century to members of today's professional Women's Hockey League, these are the stories of women who truly had ice in their veins. This is a collection of profiles of individual women who collectively shaped women's hockey from the 19th century to the present day, written by the manager of Women's hockey coverage at the Hockey News. So if you want to get ice in your veins, pick up Ice in Their Veins by Ian Kennedy. And thanks again to Tidewater Press for sponsoring this episode.
- [07:10]
Jesse
So Rebecca, we have been developing a theory kind of over the last couple years that maybe the National Book Critics Circle Award is our award. Like when we're looking for the best reflection of the books that we like and what we like in a given year. The NBCC's is the stuff and 2025's awards is not beating the rap on that count because it's really not because of why, I guess we want to
- [07:35]
Rebecca Schinsky
do that way because the fiction prize went to Han Kang for We Do Not Part, which was one of our mutual favorite books of 2025 for the whole year. Came out early in Got to talk about it all year long. And then Mother Mary Comes to Me by Arundhati Roy. Her wonderful memoir won the autobiography prize. So two house favorites love to see them taking home prizes. The other awards went to Karen Howe for Empire of AI for nonfiction, the biography award went to Alex Green for A Perfect Turmoil, Walter E. Fernald and the Struggle to Care for America's Disabled. The poetry award went to Kevin Young for Night Watch and the criticism award to Quinn Slobodian for Hayex, Bastards, Race, Gold, IQ and the Capitalism of the Far Right. And then Nicholas Boggs.
- [08:22]
Jesse
I was gonna say there's a third. There's a third Fave here won the
- [08:25]
Rebecca Schinsky
John Leonard's prize, which is the prize for the best first book in any genre. I love it when awards have a newcomers award.
- [08:35]
Jesse
John Leonard is a good one to watch.
- [08:37]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah. And so Baldwin A Love Story by Nicholas Boggs. A great one. Rounded out by the award for translation going to Neige Sino Translated from the French by Natasha Lehrer Sad Tiger Cool.
- [08:52]
Jesse
I don't much else to say about that. I do have a note for bookcritics.org I don't know if your developer is listening but I can't click on anything. I can't click on any of this. I want to find out more about. Wait, how is the Toni Morrison achievement? What is that? Can't click on anything. I'm frustrated Rebecca. Frustrated.
- [09:11]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, it looks like the text links in the top paragraph take you places, but the books themselves just don't go anywhere.
- [09:17]
Jesse
Which is madness in the year of our Lord. Just looking back at some of the previous winners just to confirm, I had Adam Higginbotham and my friends. It's just like Hadith had. Like there's just all kinds of stuff that pops up here. So I guess we are part of the egghead establishment news at 11 there. So congratulations all the winners. Thank you to all the people working on nbcc. Always a good time. First National Black Bookstore Day presented by the national association of Black Bookstores will be happening on April 7, which is I think what it sounds like a reason to think about, pay attention to visit promote make the case for the importance of black bookstores in America. There's hashtags, there are assets available if this is something you're interested in. I'm not not sure what else there is to do. There is a competitor of T shirt if you want some gear but I think more the most important thing I would have put this at the top of the page. I don't know why I'm giving people UX advice right now. I think I want the black bookstore directly real big at the top of this. Like just hit me the button of where I can go see where the directory of all the black bookstores are.
- [10:28]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yes, yes. Yeah this is so the national association of Black Bookstores just launched last summer. They were founded on juneteenth of 2025. We talked about it on the show shortly thereafter. And so this is their first inaugural. That, that's what first means. Now we're just doing synonyms of things. So this is the inaugural book.
- [10:47]
Jesse
It would be awesome if there's our second inaugural. I guess if you like shut it down and then brought it back, that'd be your second inaugural.
- [10:53]
Rebecca Schinsky
But it's going to take place on April 7th every year. And as you were saying, this is an opportunity, as they say, to recognize, elevate and drive support to black owned bookstores in the U.S. the National association of Black Bookstores also published a big survey about the state of black bookstores in the US Recently. We talked about some of that data on the show. But as refresher, national or black bookstores only make up about 8% of indie bookstores nationwide. And the vast, vast majority of them, more than 90%, bring in $250,000 or less per year in revenue. So you know a great place to throw your bookish dollars and your bookish support. There is a directory of black bookstores available so you can find one near you. But I should also note 14 states do not currently have a black owned bookstore. And if you're in one of those places, you can click on the directory and find one support with a virtual purchase.
- [11:47]
Jesse
I'm going to go out on a limb again. I've got more UX I'm. I'm web dev. I'm in the I am in the I'm in your HTML Internet today PTO for one week. I don't know what, I don't know why I've got a bun in my a bun in my oven. That bun in my onion.
- [12:02]
Rebecca Schinsky
A be in your bonnet is what you're looking for.
- [12:04]
Jesse
I don't think my a bun in my mind oven about this apartment 105 books is mislabeled on the map because it is in Maryland, not Moldova. So I don't know what the, what the file is doing because I was like, what black bookstore is in the middle of Moldova? And it was apartment 105 books. I'm like, I think I've heard about that. No, it's, it's in Maryland. So check your reference. If you were gonna fly over to Moldova for Black Bookstore day to check out 105 books, change those tickets and get him over there. Speak. I'm gonna ask you about. I don't know if it's an urban legend. It's an Internet thing that I've heard of that I've never checked to see if it's true because I don't want to know. I have heard that there is a desk in the Vienna airport. I have heard for people who thought they were buying a ticket to Australia, but they really ended up in Austria. I, I like that idea so much that I've never checked it and never. I will. And don't email me.
- [13:01]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, same. I have seen the memes as well. I find it hard to believe that that happens that often. But who knows? I have once erroneously booked a rental car for Albany, Georgia instead of Albany, New York, and only realized at the very last minute. So I guess it's possible people end up in Austria thinking they were going to Australia.
- [13:23]
Jesse
But like, but who, who goes by country? Like, what animal out there is like, you know what? I'm buying a ticket to France. And they just, they just fat finger in France. Like, maybe if you don't. I guess if you're the kind of person that could confuse Australia for Austri, maybe you don't know where Melbourne is. Maybe you don't know a city in Australia like Vienna. I've heard of that.
- [13:43]
Rebecca Schinsky
The thing that I always bump on when I hear about that is like, yeah, but even if you made the mistake when you were buying the ticket, once you like get on the plane and they're like, we are departing to Vienna, Austria,
- [13:57]
Jesse
maybe plug in your headphones. Like, I believe that it happens. But the thing that I want to believe too is that there's a desk. Someone there with very kind eyes is just sitting there all days like, oh,
- [14:08]
Rebecca Schinsky
I'm so sorry to tell you.
- [14:09]
Jesse
I heard a story. Another one. I can't confirm that someone was booked a ticket to Sydney, Australia, they thought, but it was really Sydney, Montana, I guess some other place. It was like a 45 minute flight. And I go, no, that I believe. The wrong city. I would believe over a different country.
- [14:26]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yes. Like when I was in college in Chicago, it was common. Students would accidentally, you know, go to o' Hare when they were supposed to be flying out.
- [14:35]
Jesse
Yes, yes.
- [14:36]
Rebecca Schinsky
Vice versa. You know, if you, if you took turns just flying out of whichever one you could get a good deal on. I had friends who like got to one airport to try to go home for the holidays and realized they were at the wrong airport. Gotta go to the other end of the city. Happens in New York too, I'm sure.
- [14:51]
Jesse
Yeah. When I was visiting Michelle one time when she was studying abroad, I. On the way back, I missed the flight.
- [14:57]
Rebecca Schinsky
Oh, no.
- [14:58]
Jesse
Because it was. No, I missed the flight because I got on the wrong train. But then I had to rebook the flight and then I booked it for the wrong day because of the time it was. It's one of those things. You can see how it happens, but it feels like it's a step change between that and just booking the wrong ticket to the wrong country.
- [15:13]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah. Anyway, don't go to Moldova.
- [15:16]
Jesse
Don't go to Moldova. Visit your black bookstore. Go check it out. A very cool program. I think that, like I say, the directory here is going to be the thing you want to see. Also, you can visit every day for, for those bookstore tourists out there. I know there's a lot of the show. You don't need a reason. But I know you go to a new town, you often will see what the bookstores are. Maybe do a second pass. Is there a black bookstore in this town that I'm going to. Maybe it's worth a little extra walk or maybe not an extra walk. Maybe it's right where you're going to be staying anyway. So that's a very cool thing to see on that side. A thing that is not cool to see. Rebecca and I had heard about this in back channels based on something that I can't talk about publicly necessarily, that PRH didn't have a wonderful 2025. In fact, profits fell 4.7%. So sales up, profits down, growth related expenses in the U.S. core business is the reason given along with negative exchange. Yeah, right. So that makes sense. Is there a reader facing story here?
- [16:25]
Rebecca Schinsky
Not yet, I don't think. I mean, combined with the next story that we're going to talk about, which is that print sales overall fell just over 3% in the first quarter of 2026. And that's attributed to romance sales really dropping and hardcover nonfiction really dropping, which is code for we did not have a let them theory that came out in early 2026. We have not had a big Roman so far. This is a year without a Rebecca Yaros or an ACOTAR book. This story might change in the fall when ACOTAR number six comes out. But sales are down without a. Without a big phenomenon to drive them. It has been a quiet publishing year so far. Last year was kind of a quiet publishing year. There wasn't a Big Book of the year. We talked all year long about how there wasn't a big book of 2025. And then if you're trying to. I don't. I Would love to know more about what the growth related expenses were in the US core business that PR age is citing. But I think if there's a reader driven story, it's just that there has not been a big or reader facing story. There hasn't been a big book or a couple big books to drive things. And when you have outsized years like we had with the let them theory and a bunch of fourth wing stuff, you're going to have a regression afterwards most likely.
- [17:49]
Jesse
Maybe more interesting now is the top 10 best selling books of 2026 so far which is in this Danica does a weekly best selling books of the week post for us that I often link to. I did link to it today, the fourth story in today in books which I'm responsible for this week. And I noticed just looking at the top five because we don't have direct access to numbers but what she does, which I think is real clever is look at a few of the lists and what are appearing on all the lists. What appearing on all 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 and I just sort of like with my human heart eyes I was looking at the top five the books that were on five. This feels different than it has in several years and I think this top 10 best selling books of 2026 so far also feels different. There are some holdover things. There is a freedom McFadden. But let me just read them to you dear listener and see what you think. I'll go 10 to 1. Number 10 for the fans K Pop Demon Hunters 173,000 copies Number 9 Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Deniman 183 K the Housemaid Frieda McFadden 236 Woman Down Colleen Hoover 264 Heated okay, so that that sounds okay. Familiar heated rivalry Rachel Reed 266k now look at the top five. The Correspondent by Virginia Evans 270k Project Hail Mary Andy Weir 315 Dear Debbie Freedom McFadden 332k Let them theory Mel Robbins 359k and number one, Theu of Golden 470 came when was the last time we had two lit fic titles in the top five best selling books of whatever?
- [19:24]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah. Theo of golden and the Chorus and the Correspondent. Yeah. And just big book club titles.
- [19:29]
Jesse
Yes.
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Rebecca Schinsky
Is really what's going on there and I don't think that those are being driven by TikTok. This is a lower on the algorithm set of bestsellers than we've seen in a while. Of course Frida McFadden had originally came to fame via TikTok but has a
- [19:45]
Jesse
whole established audience and the housemate had a movie out. Hair Miller had a movie out. The let them theory is just doing let them theory things.
- [19:53]
Rebecca Schinsky
Heated rivalry is because of the TV show.
- [19:56]
Jesse
I thought it was going to be higher. If you would ask me to come up with these 10, I would put a heated rivalry.
- [20:00]
Rebecca Schinsky
I think that's the thing I was going to put a button on is that even Theo of Golden, the bestselling title of the year so far is less than half a million copies.
- [20:09]
Jesse
That's the other story.
- [20:10]
Rebecca Schinsky
I agree some of that is that that's a paperback that came out last year. But often by this point in the year we have had some big or big selling novel. In 2024, was it 2024 or early 2025 it would have been the new Rebecca Yarrow's Onyx Storm. Like a million in a day, you know. But we haven't seen anything like that. And this is largely driven by backlist these top 10, which feels truer to the usual rhythms of publishing that you know, occasionally we have some big new bestsellers. But Backlist drives most publishing revenue and we could sit here and speculate all day about what's going into this. But like Theo of Golden did not come out this year. The Let them theory did not come out this year. Dear Debbie is a new freedom McFadden. So that's a new one. But Project Hail Mary is five years old. The Correspondent is from last year. The heated rivalry books are several years old.
- [21:13]
Jesse
Dungeon Crawl, Carl's multiple years old. Like that that phenomenon continues. But that first one is has been out for a while. K Pop Demon hunters is a 2025 phenomenon too.
- [21:23]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's down and like the bills are high. This is a very in this economy kind of bestsellers list.
- [21:29]
Jesse
Yeah.
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Rebecca Schinsky
That folks are really feeling the pinch of how how high household just daily expenses are.
- [21:36]
Jesse
And I and I guess my Jeff take on this is if there is going to be a world in which we exist where we're on the other side of book talk. Bookstagram driving so has been so important to the best selling. I'm not saying this is what it would look like but it might look something like this where the overall temperature is down on the biggest selling titles. And then we see coming through some of the old some of the more traditional kinds of books that become phenomenons which are book club books which are adaptations, things that catch the zeitgeist in some other way outside of the algorithm and the kinds of things as it fed. And I think there's a study been done. I don't know if this is Laura McGrath or one of her grad students. What is it about Romantasy that may have been especially amenable to algorithmic uptake? Is there something special about that genre? Right. Is it the people? Is it the salaciousness? Is it the length of the book? Is it that it happened to be Romantasy? Because then if it could just happen to be romancy, that means other genres could pick it up. Or commercial fiction? Or is it really not that? Could we have a big sci fi thing on Booktop? Seems to me less likely on his face. And I don't know that I'm even wanting the world that this could be a return to, but I'm noting with great interest that this feels meaningfully different. It's not completely altered, but it feels different than the last few years. When you look at this list.
- [23:04]
Rebecca Schinsky
It does. Yeah. There was a point where this list had like three ACOTAR books on it. Multiple Freedom McFadden's, six Hoovers, six Colleen Hoovers. Yeah. To see some just like straight down the middle literary fiction show up is really interesting.
- [23:20]
Jesse
Yeah. And what hasn't changed is all white people. So there's that. We've talked about this. I absolutely have nothing interesting and new to say. I don't know what else to say about at this point. I just don't.
- [23:34]
Various Sponsors
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- [24:58]
Rebecca Schinsky
This episode is brought to you by Quince. I've been shopping from Quince for a while now, and at some point my husband started noticing I'd show him what arrived another linen piece, incredibly well made, and when I told him what I paid for it, he couldn't believe it. Eventually he just started ordering for himself. The thing that got him hooked was the linen pants. We travel a lot, especially in the summer, and he's been looking for something that doesn't wrinkle into a disaster in a suitcase, looks good enough for dinner out, and is actually really comfortable in the heat. These are that the kind of pants you wear on the plane, go straight to a nice enough restaurant and nobody knows you've been traveling all day? They've become his default for summer date nights too. They're laid back, but pulled together without any effort. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen so everything is 50 to 60% less than comparable brands. The quality is there, the price just doesn't match it in the very best way. Go to quince.combookriot for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com bookstore thanks to Quince for supporting the show.
- [26:03]
Ollie Sleep Sponsor
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- [26:29]
Jesse
And you know what I do have to say though? I'm sorry to hdt I'm saying Thoreau. I didn't click on this link. Rebecca I'm saying Thoreau. I might be thoroughly wrong about it, but I'm saying thorough.
- [26:42]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's just an emphasis problem as with Pinchon.
- [26:46]
Jesse
Thorough. Thorough.
- [26:48]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's thorough. Like like thorough.
- [26:54]
Jesse
You know what? Your name is in the public domain now. I'm sorry. You had plenty of time.
- [26:58]
Rebecca Schinsky
There is a new documentary that Ken Burns produced about Walden Tis the season of Henry David and Jeff Goldblum and many others had to be corrected on their pronunciation of thorough. Henry David. Thorough. Emphasis on the first syllable apparently. I am not sure that I can
- [27:17]
Jesse
correct for there's no way that that is going to get upgraded in my firmware. 0% chance.
- [27:23]
Rebecca Schinsky
But for the record, here we are. We've all been saying it wrong.
- [27:30]
Jesse
And how do they know? Were they around in 1850? No, they were not. So I'll put that out there as well. You know what? Another thing I don't want to engage with that much is AI generated micro dramas. I did a bit yesterday and today in books where I picked three stories and said there are two truths in the lie because it was April Fools, maybe my least favorite holiday of the year.
- [27:51]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, not a fan.
- [27:52]
Jesse
And. And I almost fell for one of them. And this is one of the links I included because it almost seems like the kind of thing that might be a gag. The other one of the other stories was AI related where Harlequin is a multi agreement with this company called Dash Verse which specializes in short form video to produce a slate of 40 animated micro dramas inspired by Harlequin romance titles. Beginning with a fairy tale ending by Catherine Mann, each short form series will be developed by a team of illustrators assisted by Dash versus proprietary production CDO frameo and distributed in English across leading global micro drama platforms including Dash versus Dash Reels. I'm going to stop right there Rebecca, and translate into what? What is this? What? What is this?
- [28:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
These are animated like short chapters in inspired by Harlequin Romance stories that are going to start appearing across your social media like places where they're a short form video. You're going to be able to start running into these now. And I have seen some more like live action versions of this stuff or what I think is live action. Maybe they're AI generated actors get served in my algorithm where I'm like, I don't care about this, like not trying to follow stories. But in the mode of like everything is becoming TV again. Our algorithmic driven social media is just trying to become TV again. People are willing to follow these like short chapters of stories or like you know, get sucked into them. As we've said many times on the show, romance tends to be at the forefront of new tech development. That is true because because there's so much of it, the fans are so avid. I don't know how romance fans are responding to this, but I've seen similar things where like there are a lot of like short form audio romance. There's a lot of short form audio romance content available through things that bill themselves as like storytelling apps for women that are basically just like audio erotica or audio porn. And I, I believe some of those have AI generated voices I don't know. Like I, I, I think what I am afraid is true here is that these are going to have plenty audience that people will be compelled by the stories like the content and either not know that they're AI generated or won't
- [30:25]
Jesse
care who's getting money from whom for what in this deal.
- [30:29]
Rebecca Schinsky
So the publisher, Brent Lewis, he's the Harlequin EVP and publisher, he declined to answer questions about the specifics of the deal to pw, but he did say that authors will receive royalties from the videos which are going to be monetized via ads and on certain platforms by subscriptions. So if people follow the accounts, I guess that post these videos, those accounts will be monetized and somehow some of that money will be passed back down to the authors of these books.
- [31:05]
Jesse
Yeah, I, it's certainly interesting. There are like nine things in this that are not for me and that is fine. Not, not only does not everything need to be for me, most things need not be for me. My guess here is that there's not a lot of money for Harlequin directly from dashverse. Who's paying them to do that? Like, where do they expect to see the money? Like they say, I know some of these micro dramas. I know this exists on short form videos. Like there are what we would call short TV series that live on these platforms. You've already buy them free and they get a bunch of views and you can get money from that. I don't understand how this will work. I'm almost wondering if Harlequin sees this. If people like the micro drama for King's pregnancy Proposition, that's one of the real titles here, then they go buy the book or they buy this is book one series and they go buy books two, three, four. Is this the amuse bouche to you being involved in that reader and that reading experience? I don't know. I would love to have been on a fly on the wall. But the strategy of like, okay, why are we going to do this? What does a win look like for us? Because I can't imagine that the math is so compelling that both dashverse and Harlequin are gonna wet their beak if this goes pretty well. Like it takes a lot of views to make money.
- [32:20]
Rebecca Schinsky
A lot. It takes so many views to make money. Will be very interesting to see how if slash how the romance community responds to this. And I'm not even sure this is really aimed at the romance reading community. Like, what this really makes me think about is how most new developments in technology are Driven by war or porn.
- [32:42]
Jesse
Right.
- [32:43]
Rebecca Schinsky
And this is clearly not about war, but this is a way to maybe use technology to position romance and sex related content that people seek out. And Harlequin certainly has a huge backlog. You know, like they've got the catalog. If dashverse was wanting to do something
- [33:02]
Jesse
sexy, I may have to cut this because this is such a good idea and we might have to take it for ourselves. What about spicy historical World War II spy dramas? Why isn't there 50 Shades of 50 Shades of Agent X who is actually a librarian lady?
- [33:20]
Rebecca Schinsky
Librarian spy.
- [33:21]
Jesse
Yeah. Right. Yeah, that would work.
- [33:25]
Rebecca Schinsky
It would work.
- [33:27]
Jesse
So anyway, if you know more about this, shoot us email podcast@bookriot.com the first adaptations are Forbidden Fiji Nights with her rival by J.C. haraway, newlywed enemies by Jackie Ashenden, the King's Pregnancy Proposition by Just Laquette and Mistletoe Baby mix up by J.C. haraway. Okay, all right, that's wonderful. Moving on down the line, shall we go to Adaptation Corner?
- [33:51]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, we got like one. One for really you and one for both of us here.
- [33:55]
Jesse
Wait, which was for me? Which one of these is for me?
- [33:58]
Rebecca Schinsky
I think Patrick Raden Keefe is more for you. At least I haven't gotten to London Falling.
- [34:03]
Jesse
Oh, you haven't read London Falling?
- [34:04]
Rebecca Schinsky
Okay, not yet. But a 24 of which I am a big fan has acquired Patrick Raden Keefe's new book, London Falling. You talked about it on front list foyer last time we were here on the show together and that's all we know.
- [34:21]
Jesse
I would like to beg TV series. I would love to beg Timothee Chalamet to play the lead in London Fallen. I really need need a upwardly mobile Timmy Chalamet pretending to be a Russian billionaire accent. I would be so excited to see what he could do with that. That would. That's my one ask. I know he's older than 19, but he looks boyish. I would say even coming after Dune. I don't know, but he could Marty's supreme the snot out of the lead role.
- [34:51]
Rebecca Schinsky
You know who else might work for that is Dominic Sessa from the Holdovers.
- [34:57]
Jesse
Yeah, I could see that too.
- [34:59]
Rebecca Schinsky
He's gonna play young Bourdain in an upcoming film, but a good scrappy vibe. Love to see a Patrick Rattan Keefe adaptation. Say Nothing was so much fun. So London Falling will be a series don't know much more about.
- [35:13]
Jesse
It's going to be less fun than say Nothing. I will spoil that in terms of the un Unalloyed funness. Is not really in the cards for the story of London Falling. I unalloyed funness may be in the offing for the Corrections at Netflix, because that's what we're getting it.
- [35:27]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yes, 25 years after it first came out. This fall will be the 25th anniversary of the Corrections. And there have been multiple attempts to adapt this. There was a pilot in 2012 for, I believe HBO that was Diane Wiest and Chris Cooper. That went nowhere.
- [35:44]
Jesse
They didn't pick that up in a drawer somewhere. Somewhere someone has this.
- [35:48]
Rebecca Schinsky
I would love to see that pilot, please. But Meryl Streep has been attached to this for a while. I think we talked about it a year or so ago, but they were still looking around and Netflix has given it a straight to series order. Here is what's really exciting.
- [36:03]
Jesse
Here it is. Here Streep is good enough. But here it is.
- [36:05]
Rebecca Schinsky
Streep is good enough being written by Jonathan Franzen, directed by Cord Jefferson.
- [36:12]
Jesse
Amazing.
- [36:13]
Rebecca Schinsky
Who, if you are unfamiliar, was the writer and director of American fiction, which won for best Adapted screenplay in 2024. Won the Oscar. Adapted from Percival Everett's book Erasure, A great follow on project for Cord Jefferson.
- [36:30]
Jesse
I have a list of questions here. For Rebecca. I have questions. Let's see. Should we start with question 74? No, I'm kidding. But I'm gonna just. I'm just gonna throw them out to you. You can pick up any of those.
- [36:38]
Rebecca Schinsky
Let's do it.
- [36:39]
Jesse
Okay, so I'm guessing that only Streep is attached. Like the rest of the family. They're gonna build out.
- [36:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
She'll be the matriarch.
- [36:46]
Jesse
She'll be the matriarch. There's her children. She and her children are the main characters. They could go wherever they want. They could go ham with. I mean, I don't. I'm not even really care about this.
- [36:57]
Rebecca Schinsky
And anyone is going to say yes to this with Meryl Streep attached to it. Like, everyone will say yes.
- [37:02]
Jesse
On a scale of 1 to 10, how faithful is this going to be to the original? Now Franzen's adapting, which to my knowledge, he has never done before. This is that this is the first Franzen property. Cor Jefferson has been known like watchmen. I mean, he was part of that. But like American fiction even changes that a little bit. Like, are we gonna do some gender race bending? That would make some sense in the year of our Lord 2026. Like, I. How are we gonna work up this? Franzen is not someone who historically, at least to my memory, really dealt with race Directly, like, he is very much like us in Brooklyn and the kinds of people we would have known. The family systems. He looks at family systems, and they tend to be white people of a certain kind. Another thought there. How many episodes? Any of those interesting to you? Any. Which of those questions are interesting to you?
- [37:59]
Rebecca Schinsky
I would like this to be six to eight.
- [38:05]
Jesse
Okay.
- [38:06]
Rebecca Schinsky
Like, no more than that one season. We don't need to do this forever. And if you got Meryl Streep, I'm guessing it's like, really a limited run situation. I think I'll take six to eight. I would like them to be an hour in length.
- [38:22]
Jesse
You sound like Chris Trigger ordering a margarita. I'd like it to be skinny. I like it to be one line.
- [38:27]
Rebecca Schinsky
I know what I want here.
- [38:28]
Jesse
Yes.
- [38:29]
Rebecca Schinsky
I think they would be wise to update the timing so that this is set in present day instead of 2001.
- [38:35]
Jesse
I think that Although that's right.
- [38:36]
Rebecca Schinsky
Right. Like an early 2000s period piece could be a good time.
- [38:41]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [38:41]
Rebecca Schinsky
And I would then also like to see the family be. Yeah. More not. Not just straight up white people. Although the messiness of Midwestern white people who don't know how to talk about is wonderful.
- [38:54]
Jesse
Yeah. Give. Just shoot into my veins. Maybe don't cut it with. With anything else.
- [38:59]
Rebecca Schinsky
Like, just let the white people be messy by themselves. I also think. I don't really care how faithful it is to this.
- [39:06]
Jesse
No, that wasn't a judgment. I'm just wondering.
- [39:08]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah. Yeah.
- [39:09]
Jesse
Jay Frazer, 25 years to marinate on this. Are you really gonna be like, I'm just gonna do exactly the same thing? My temptation would be to, like, you know, he knows more things. He's had different experience. He was a. He's a different person. A lot different life experience now.
- [39:23]
Rebecca Schinsky
I thought American fiction did a wonderful job of adapting the ideas and the spirit and, like, the tone of erasure and the absurdity of it. And then it also, like, punched up the fun of it. Like, the Sterling K. Brown character is a lot more fun on screen than that character is on the page. And it made it a really good movie to go to. And I just think Cora Jefferson has good instincts for that. Like, he struck me as a good reader. When and when he was on the tour for American Fiction, when they were doing press junkets, he talked about reading and he talked about books. And, like, I would guess this will be faithful to the vibes of the corrections. Messy family get together over the holidays. But some of the particulars will be changed and updated. And I feel Fine with that.
- [40:08]
Jesse
Very exciting. We have no date here.
- [40:10]
Rebecca Schinsky
No.
- [40:11]
Jesse
I think you could do this in four episodes.
- [40:13]
Various Sponsors
Okay.
- [40:14]
Jesse
I don't know that they will. I think they want six hours of content out of doing all this stuff. I am very curious to see how this goes. I think the casting will be a lot of fun if you get to play. There's like, there's like a knives out element. It's not that zany or anything but just like this sibling rivalry, unstated real ensemble tension, but also familiarity. And everyone knows exactly where to stab people. Yeah, there's, there's, it's going to be quite something to see. Let's see what else. I don't think there's anything else to say about this.
- [40:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
That's the last one then. Speaking of Dungeon Crawler Carl, which was the ninth best selling book of the year so far, it has been picked up, just announced today, picked up for a TV series by Seth MacFarlane's Fuzzy Door Productions. And it will be landing at Peacock. And that is all we know. But this seemed inevitable for Dungeon Crawler. Crawler Crawler Carl is hard to say.
- [41:08]
Jesse
Dungeon Crawler Carl is really hard to say. I tend to. I can mush my words together. This is one of the phenomenons of we haven't done. Maybe this is a patreon to do the 50 biggest book phenomenons of our, you know, professional lives that we've been doing this. But Dungeon Crawler Carl is calling not up to the dungeons through dungeons, but up the list of this because they're all over the place. They have scads of fans. I don't know where they're coming from necessarily. Doesn't mean anything other than how are people. What kinds of readers are they? Sci fi readers? They're gamers. They people that grew up loving Diary of a Wimpy Kid and stuff like this. Like I, I don't really understand how people are finding this at this point. It's finding it because it has its own momentum. Right. But like where did the initial stuff come from? From this. I'd love to do an oral history of Dungeon Crawler Carl. Maybe we should do that. Maybe I can talk to someone over there and see because there's a bunch of them now. This also there's multiple books. So this could go for multiple seasons.
- [42:07]
Rebecca Schinsky
Oh yeah, TV series at Peacock. And there is like a Dungeon Crawler Carl read along podcast that I've seen trending. Like this is really, it's now spawning its own like communities of user generated content, not just stuff coming Straight from Matt Denim and a huge phenomenon, but officially going to Peacock.
- [42:27]
Jesse
For those of you who don't know, here's the official log line for the show. An alien invasion has wiped out most of humanity and any survivors are forced to fight for their lives on a sadistic intergalactic game show. Sounds bad right now. Try and do it with bare feet and a stuck up self centered tiara wearing talking cat as your partner. Welcome to Dungeon Crawler World Earth where the apocalypse will be televised. It's like Squid Game written by Douglas Adams.
- [42:49]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, It's a lit RPG. Fascinating.
- [42:52]
Jesse
It'll be Executive Brief by Seth MacFarland which your mileage might vary but it seems like you may know how to make this pop zany to some degree. I think that covers us for the news so far. It's time for Frontless Foyer, Rebecca, which is of course brought to you. Brought to us by thriftbooks.com where you can find more than 19 million new and used books. I don't know. You can find a used dungeon crawler crawl. Boy oh boy. It's so funny to say DCC is what I'm calling it now because people are hoarding these. You can't buy them used at this point, but if you do, you can also buy it new if you're looking for it over there at a price that's very competitive with other certain websites you may have heard of that sell discounted books. Each purchase gets you closer to a reading rewards redemption. Pick out a new book and all US orders over 15 bucks come with free shipping. Thanks to ThriftBooks.com for sponsoring Frontlist Foyer. You had previewed one of your pics, Rebecca. Tell me about. Oh my God, how right I was about in the days of my youth. I was told to what it Means by Man by Tom Junod. First of all, did you do an audio or print?
- [43:56]
Rebecca Schinsky
I read it in print because you had told me that the audio like was pretty long. And then I looked at it and I was like, yeah, I want to get to this book and I will make better time with it in print. So I read it while I was traveling and my biggest mistake was reading it while you were on pto and I could. When I couldn't text you excessively.
- [44:15]
Jesse
What was the first? Would the first text have been the briefcase full of vibrators? Would that have been the first?
- [44:20]
Rebecca Schinsky
Probably, yeah. Chekhov's vibrators as I was joking about them yesterday. Wow, what a book. Like you had said, you know, memoir about it's a fathers and sons man. Complicated memoir about this relationship with his dad, who turns out to be, like, not a great guy, but is a larger than life figure in Junod's life. And also just like, the lives of everyone that he's ever interacted with. And that's true, but the. There's just like, it's such a ride. How true it is is really bonkers. And, like, what the specifics are of what this guy was up to when he was being a traveling salesman and not necessarily just selling his handbags.
- [45:04]
Jesse
Yes.
- [45:04]
Rebecca Schinsky
Like. And then like the complicated family tree. There's just there. There is so much and it's hard to talk about without spoiling all the. All the things. Like, Junod is a journalist. His dad died more than 10 years ago now, and he spent a decade, like, going back and trying to really construct the story of who was this man. But then also just reckoning with himself. Like, there's. There are bits about how Genod was a big bully in like fifth and sixth grade and how violent he was, what it was coming from, how he feels about it now. Just like boyhood is rendered so powerfully. I was just riveted. Like, I. I've been telling everyone I know, like, had texted a friend who had one of those, like, larger than life kind of dads. And I was like, you have got to read this immediate. And he texted me this morning and was like, just got to the briefcase of vibrators. And I was like, oh, buckle up.
- [45:59]
Jesse
I wonder when. When Tom Junod was watching Mad Men and he's watching Don Draper, if, like, he broke out in a cold sweat because there is an element of. It's actually wilder than Draper stuff. It is. I switched my name with some creed, but, like, he's a handbag salesman. Serial philanderer, as charismatic as the day is long.
- [46:19]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah. Yeah.
- [46:19]
Jesse
The thing you miss on audio is Tom doing his father's impression, which maybe you pick up an audio or you get it from the library just to hear him.
- [46:26]
Rebecca Schinsky
I'll give it a shot.
- [46:27]
Jesse
But a real. A real self examination. And he's looking through at himself through his father's life and backwards and forwards and in a lot of ways. And I think he mentions in the book, you remind me if I'm wrong. Like, I think he says at one point he sort of been. He became a writer to try to figure out his dad to some degree to, like, figure out some way of articulating this.
- [46:46]
Rebecca Schinsky
This is the story he has spent decades of his career preparing to tell. And, like, trying to understand who he is through the lens of finally understanding who his father was and like. And I thought he did such a beautiful job of holding the two things side by side. That he idolized his father, that he had fond memories of his childhood, and also that his father was a real source of pain in his family's life and not the kind of person that you want to aspire to be, but was in some ways the kind of person that he wanted to be. And that Junaud was shaped in a lot of ways by his father. Just, I mean, fascinating. And also, like, I have. I have a hard time with, like, mother and daughter memoirs, but it was great to read Complicated Fathers and Sons. I was like, I got no baggage.
- [47:33]
Jesse
Just enough distance to do this. Yeah. At this particular side. Yeah. It's pretty terrific.
- [47:38]
Rebecca Schinsky
What a book. Like, just, what a revelation. I really, really loved it. This is not the book to buy for your dad for Father's Day.
- [47:45]
Jesse
Most likely it's a book to you're a sibling if you're estranged from your father on Father's Day. I think that's my only Father Day's recommendation. I could go there. You also, you also blew through Whidbey by Tierra Kira Madman. We talked about before. What was this like? How did you like?
- [47:58]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, it was good. And I wanted to find out for myself because I had been seeing buzz all over the place and people calling it a masterpiece. It takes a lot to make me declare something a masterpiece. And I don't think I'm giving that crown to Whidbey, but I really, really liked it. This comes with all the trigger warnings. It's about women who were all abused, molested by the same man when they children. And we spend time with two of those women as adults. We spend time with the mother of the man who abused them. And like a podcaster who years later is trying to do a true crime story. It's really layered and nuanced. There is a whodunit that runs underneath the whole thing. Because early in the book, the. The man dies and we don't know how or who is responsible. So as you're finding out, these people's relationships to him and the ways that he has impacted their lives, you're also wondering, okay, which one of them killed him? And like, everybody's got motive.
- [48:57]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [48:57]
Rebecca Schinsky
So just like all the trigger warnings in the world for it. But Madden can write a sentence and that's for me. It was an elevated thriller experience because her writing is really gorgeous. So take all of the warnings about the content of the book. And this was, I think, the first time that I picked up a hardcover book where I saw in the front of the book, like, if you would like a trigger warning, turn to this page and you can go to a page at the back that gives you more details about what you might be getting into. Which I thought, like, that's a nice way to lay it out as well. Like you don't get spoiled right up front by the details of a trigger warning if you're not interested in being spoiled. But it's available for people who want it. I really liked it. I think we're going to see it on some end of year lists.
- [49:43]
Jesse
I picked up the two most random audiobooks of all time for my vacation listening. Yeah. So the first is Hotel Splendid by Ludwig Bemelman. This was Originally published in 1941. It was reissued a couple years ago. And if you don't know, Ludwig Bebelman was a hotel waiter author and cartoonist now best known for writing the Madeline books. And Bemelman's bar has his illustrations that he did on the walls there. But he got his start as a waiter at the Ritz Carlton in New York in the 1920s. Hotel this is his memoir of his time as a waiter as becoming a cartoon, an illustrator. Hotel Splendid is what he calls the name of his establishment at the time. It was a. I think it was an open secret. It certainly is open secret now that it's the Ritz Carlton. He was a waiter at the Ritz Carlton in the 20s. And it's a portrait of what it was like to work the front, back of the house and the characters and the people and love that, just everything that goes into it. The blurb is picture David Sedaris writing Kitchen Confidential about the ritz in the
- [50:46]
Rebecca Schinsky
1920s is great sign me.
- [50:49]
Jesse
I don't think it's quite that. I don't think it's quite that just because Sedaris and. And Bourdain are too modern. But there's an archness that is gone that's hard to replicate. Now. Sedaris and Bourdain are manifestly kind of rule breakers. Like they present themselves as doing things they're not supposed to be doing, right. This. They're weird and strange. The thing Bemelman's does here is he is portraying the lives of these things that are in public. These are these people and these are how things happen. And his own observations of them are quite erudite, arch, biting and a lot of fun. I will say there are some characterizations of people that don't hold up as well 50 years later. But you might expect that from 1941. I don't know that it's a standard deviation away from what you might be at the norm here. But as a New York lover, as a 20s lover, this was something that's been on my list for a long time. I heard about it a long time ago.
- [51:43]
Rebecca Schinsky
I was gonna ask, like, how this popped up on your radar right now.
- [51:46]
Jesse
Yeah. And then I didn't. It's one of those reissues which I also. I often don't find in my, like, catalog reviews. And I was at Powell's one day, and I was like, oh, my God, there's a reissue of this. So it went on my list, you know, the one up here in the air. And then I just call it forth when I'm, like, looking through stuff. So that was a lot of fun there. I also, from time to time, like to read a book about racing writing. Just keep my skills sharp, see what people are doing. Neil Allen, Anne Lamott had a new. Have a new book out called. I think it's just called Good Writing. Now I'm not even looking at my document. Oh, where'd my agenda go, Rebecca? There we go. It is just called Good Writing by Neil Allen and Anne Mott. So Neil Allen and Anne Lamott are husband and wife. And Neil Allen, as you know, Anne Lamott's writer, bird by bird, a bunch of other stuff.
- [52:34]
Rebecca Schinsky
Stuff.
- [52:34]
Jesse
But he is also a lifetime writer, but coming up through the newspaper, World cup reporter, freelance writer. And he had been collecting over the course of his life, sort of rules, guidelines for him that he has picked up. There's 36 of them. And each of these chapters is the elucidation of the rule and then some examples and rationalization. And then that's Neil's. And then Anne does, like, a rejoinder, rebutting, right, like, okay, here's what I think. Think. Here's my example. Here's why I agree. Or there's no, like, he's wrong, but, like, nah, maybe not so much with this. This is not revelatory, but it's good to remember sentences and a lot of things I believe in here. I just liked reading it just to have some time thinking about writing in this age where it's easy to whip off some AI stuff. And you see it all the time, what the choices are, remind myself why it's important, what the advantages are. Even to disagree with some of the stuff, honestly was interesting to me. So that's Good Writing by Neil Allen.
- [53:32]
Rebecca Schinsky
Did any of the tips particularly stand out or his rules?
- [53:38]
Jesse
I was so gratified that early. I don't know if it was rule one, but to pay attention. Think of the verbs as the engine of your sentence. This is something I used to teach all the time. And I myself still can fall into a verb of to be, am, is, was, we're being bin as the, you know, just. It's just not active. Or can I choose something that's a little more interesting? Can I be selective and intentional and think about the verb being as specific, interesting and evocative as I can possibly do? Because that can then offload your adjectives and your adverbs. Like, use that. Right, use that. And then can you pack interest into your adjectives? Can you pack interest into your nouns? I sometimes in just functional writing, I do like to think about was that a good sentence? But in trying to get through the sense, I'm not always thinking about specific word choice. And can I spend a moment just thinking through that? Also big advance, like read with a thesaurus. Look at it. There's some inherent contradictions between use interesting words but also don't sound fancy. I think that's. That's something. That's a tension for a lot of writers. I'll include myself in this. They seem very allergic to style for style's sake. I am less so. Sometimes a good sentence is its own reward. That's okay. A beautiful, interesting sentence. A good sense is variously determined. But again, reading, thinking. It's kind of like a business book for me now. I generally don't learn a whole lot, but it puts me in the space to think about it. It just sort of gets me in the right frame of mind that I can find myself wanting.
- [55:16]
Rebecca Schinsky
Wandering from nice to be like refreshed, brushed up on the skills.
- [55:20]
Jesse
Yeah. So anyway, Anne Lamott, who we need to do bird by bird at some point for zero to well read.
- [55:26]
Rebecca Schinsky
Oh yeah.
- [55:27]
Jesse
Neil talks about, you know, use metaphor, use analogy. And he says of her, he's. She's the best wielder of analogy he's ever met and she's quite good at that. And as a purveyor of the analogy, as, As a. As a prosumer of analogy wield building. I like to see the masters at work and she's quite good. So those are my few.
- [55:46]
Various Sponsors
Yeah.
- [55:47]
Rebecca Schinsky
Maybe we'll have to have a listener vote off on style guides. What we should do Strung white or Anne Lamott first, there's.
- [55:54]
Jesse
There's bird by bird on Writing and Elements of Style. Those are the three that people really go to. I like them all for different reasons. A close read of the Elements of Style is sort of more fun because Strunk and White have some opinions.
- [56:11]
Rebecca Schinsky
I love White.
- [56:12]
Jesse
I know you do. And that boy. That boy could write a sentence.
- [56:15]
Rebecca Schinsky
He really could.
- [56:17]
Jesse
Yeah. All right, I think that's it. Rebecca, anything else you want to shout people out for right now?
- [56:20]
Rebecca Schinsky
Good little Front List Foyer Check out, you know Zero to well Read feed If you're listening to this on Monday. It's still Much Ado about Nothing if you're listening on Tuesday and there's a new Zero to well Red episode and it is one of our all time shared favorite books. If you are a longtime listener of this podcast, you will not be surprised to see what it is. We had a great time and pop over to the Book Riot Podcast Patreon for our favorite debuts of the last 10 years. That was a fun list to put together.
- [56:50]
Jesse
Yep. All right, thanks everybody. Bookright.com Listen to find show notes you shoot us, email podcastookright.com Also, we need those recommendation requests Moms, dads and grads over there. And as always, thanks to Thriftbooks for sponsoring Thriftbooks. Foyer and the Book Riot Podcast is a proud member of the Airwave Podcast Network. Will talk to you all real soon.
- [57:21]
Ollie Sleep Sponsor
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