Celebrity Book Clubs GO IRL, Literary Grudges, and more book news

Summary

Book Riot - The Podcast: Celebrity Book Clubs GO IRL, Literary Grudges, and More Book News
Release Date: April 28, 2025
Hosts: Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Book Riot - The Podcast, hosts Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky delve into a variety of hot topics in the literary world. From controversies surrounding prestigious awards to the economics of audiobook narration, and the evolving landscape of book festivals, this episode is a treasure trove for book enthusiasts. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing the key discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn by Jeff and Rebecca.

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Pulitzer Prize Controversy: No Winner in 2012

The episode kicks off with a heated discussion about the 2012 Pulitzer Prize in Fiction, which notably did not award a winner despite recommendations from the jury. Rebecca expresses her frustration over the matter:

“We power ranked the Pulitzer Prize winners of the last several years of the century so far, and I got really angry. We need a term for how they didn't award the prize in 2012. So your girl went googling this morning.”
(02:25) – Rebecca Schinsky

Jeff adds context to the situation, highlighting the role of the Pulitzer board:

“The three-person jury reads a bajillion books and recommends three finalists to the Pulitzer board. The Pulitzer board is supposed to pick one of those three to be the winner. They have done it every year except for like four times. There's an escape hatch where the board can go back and ask for a fourth option. And they didn't.”
(01:50) – David Harbour (Jeff O’Neill)

The hosts speculate on potential candidates that year, such as Jesmyn Ward's Salvage the Bones, and lament the missed opportunity to honor exceptional literary works:

“Lev Grossman is newly on my hit list because he defended the Pulitzers’ decision saying that there's not a masterpiece published in every year.”
(03:30) – Rebecca Schinsky

Patreon Project: Ranking "Exit Zero" by Marie Helene Bertino

Jeff and Rebecca share insights into their upcoming Patreon-exclusive project, where they will rank the short stories in "Exit Zero" by Marie Helene Bertino based on how "Marine Helene Bertino" they are. Jeff introduces a unique metric:

“I have a good reason. ... introduced the basic unit of strangeness, literary strangeness. And it is the Bertino. That is one unit, one Bertino.”
(04:32) – David Harbour

Rebecca commends the project and adds that they will elaborate on their ranking methodology during the Patreon recording session:

“It was a fun project.”
(04:44) – Rebecca Schinsky

The Business of Being a Writer by Jane Friedman

The conversation then shifts to Jane Friedman’s new book, The Business of Being a Writer. Jeff underscores its importance for aspiring writers:

“If you want to be a writer, if you want to be a creative person and make some money from it, frankly kind of indispensable.”
(06:45) – David Harbour

Rebecca echoes the sentiment, highlighting Friedman's long-standing expertise in the publishing industry:

“When I started blogging approximately 1 million years ago, Jane Friedman was one of the first resources that folks in publishing told me you need to read her to understand the landscape here.”
(07:21) – Rebecca Schinsky

Celebrity Book Clubs and High-Priced Book Festivals

A significant portion of the episode scrutinizes the burgeoning trend of celebrity-led book festivals, specifically the Read with Jenna Book Festival hosted by Jenna Bush Hager. Jeff and Rebecca critique the high ticket prices, questioning the value proposition:

“$399 to go to [the Read with Jenna Book Festival]. It’s basically a one-day convention.”
(33:47) – Rebecca Schinsky

Jeff considers the possibility of why such high prices are justified:

“If someone will buy a ticket for it, buy a ticket for it. Like, I don't begrudge the cost of front row seats at whatever concert you're going to.”
(38:41) – David Harbour

Rebecca counters by comparing it to other accessible book festivals that offer free admission, pondering the exclusivity and financial barriers imposed by high-ticket events:

“The National Book Festival happens in Washington D.C. every summer and draws the same caliber of authors, like big names. And you can go see them for free.”
(33:57) – Rebecca Schinsky

Audiobook Narration Economics: Celebrity Voices

The hosts explore the financial dynamics behind celebrity-narrated audiobooks, spotlighting Cynthia Erivo’s recent narration of Wicked. Jeff expresses curiosity about her compensation and the broader implications for the audiobook industry:

“I’m more interested voyeuristically in the economics of this. Why didn’t this happen before the first movie came out?”
(22:27) – David Harbour

Rebecca delves into the standard payment model for audiobook narrators, noting that traditional narrators are typically paid per finished hour, and raises questions about whether celebrity narrators receive different compensations:

“Audiobook narrators, at least the traditional ones, are paid by the finished recorded hour. I wonder if that model applies to celebrity narrators?”
(25:32) – Rebecca Schinsky

Neil Gaiman Lawsuit and NDAs

A contentious topic arises with the discussion of Neil Gaiman’s lawsuit against an accuser for violating an NDA. Rebecca outlines the case details and the broader implications for reputation and legal practices:

“Neil Gaiman is suing one of his accusers for $500,000 because she broke an NDA that she had signed.”
(13:24) – Rebecca Schinsky

Jeff critiques this move, suggesting it may backfire and further tarnish Gaiman’s reputation:

“We need a term for... the careless people effect, frankly, because Meta outdid Streisand in a lot of different ways.”
(12:10) – David Harbour

Rebecca reflects on the strategic motivations behind the lawsuit, pondering whether it serves as a deterrent for other accusers:

“He might win in court... but he is absolutely acting like the bad guy right now.”
(17:57) – Rebecca Schinsky

Innovations in E-Readers: Foldable E-Ink Technology

Jeff introduces a novel product, the Moo Ink 5, an 8-inch folding E-Ink screen reader. He engages in a playful debate with Rebecca about its practicality:

“It's an 8-inch touchscreen and it folds into sort of half that. It's really interesting... but I just don't see the marginal difference between folding this and just reading on my phone.”
(20:45) – David Harbour

Rebecca remains skeptical about the market demand for such a device, questioning its necessity compared to existing technology:

“I just kind of just don't know who the customer is for a foldable E reader... does it not seem to be catching on with smartphones, at least not yet.”
(21:33) – Rebecca Schinsky

Recommended Reads: "Exit Zero" and "Searches"

The hosts recommend "Exit Zero" by Marie Helene Bertino, praising its exploration of loss, connection, and unique storytelling:

“A lot of these are concerned with loss, with connection or the failure to connect or a connection that's like broken relationships.”
(46:02) – Rebecca Schinsky

Additionally, Rebecca endorses "Searches" by Vahini Vara, highlighting its innovative dialogue with AI and its exploration of selfhood in the digital age:

“She has this ongoing conversation throughout the book with... ChatGPT... asking questions about what does being a person mean when we have technology.”
(46:37) – Rebecca Schinsky

Jeff shares his admiration for the book’s creative approach:

“This is the book I wanted to read. It's not dry, it's not academic. It gets to the questions of like, personhood and art through a really creative lens.”
(47:58) – Rebecca Schinsky

Closing Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Jeff and Rebecca reflect on the diverse topics covered, reiterating their commitment to providing insightful and thought-provoking content for their listeners. They encourage audience engagement through their Patreon and various channels, ensuring that Book Riot continues to be a vibrant hub for diverse readers and literary discussions.

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Notable Quotes

• Rebecca Schinsky on the Pulitzer Controversy:
  “We need a term for how they didn't award the prize in 2012.”
  (02:25)

• Jeff O’Neill on the Business of Being a Writer:
  “If you want to be a writer... it's kind of indispensable.”
  (06:45)

• Rebecca Schinsky on High-Priced Book Festivals:
  “$399 to go to [the Read with Jenna Book Festival]. It’s basically a one-day convention.”
  (33:47)

• Rebecca Schinsky on Neil Gaiman’s Lawsuit:
  “He is absolutely acting like the bad guy right now.”
  (17:57)

• Jeff O’Neill on Foldable E-Ink Readers:
  “I just don't see the marginal difference between folding this and just reading on my phone.”
  (20:45)

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Conclusion

This episode of Book Riot - The Podcast offers a rich tapestry of discussions that span from literary award controversies to the intricacies of the book festival economy. Jeff and Rebecca's dynamic conversation provides listeners with both critical insights and thoughtful reflections on the current state of the literary world. Whether you're a seasoned bibliophile or a casual reader, this episode is packed with content that will inform and engage you.

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For more details, episode notes, and to join the conversation, visit bookriot.com or reach out via email at [e-mail].

Transcript

[David Harbour]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

Through May 7th at the home Depot.

[David Harbour]

Subject to availability. Valid on select items only. Hey there. I'm David Harbour from Marvel Studios Thunderbolts. I don't mean to interrupt your favorite podcast.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, actually maybe I do just a little bit, but I have a good reason.

[David Harbour]

My new film hits theaters Friday, May 2, and it's got everything.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Action, suspense, humor, heart and Bob.

[David Harbour]

Who's Bob? Find out by getting tickets now. Okay, now back to the show or.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Onto the next ad.

[David Harbour]

This is the Book Riot podcast. I'm Jeff O'Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[David Harbour]

I was fighting a headache this morning. It's cleared up a little bit, but I'm a little. I'm a little muted today.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, I'm coming in hot and do you want to know why?

[David Harbour]

Anthony Bourdain News.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, I mean, I'm excited about that. Dominic Sessa is going to play Anthony Bourdain in a biopic and that's a hot. Of a different kind.

[David Harbour]

Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know, we were talking about the Pulitzers. We power ranked the Pulitzer Prize winners of the last several years of the. Of the century so far actually, for our most recent episode. And I got really angry. We need a term for this. About how they didn't award the prize in 2012. So your girl went googling this morning.

[David Harbour]

I know where you're going. I know, I know. It's. It's Ward. I know. I know what you're doing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, no, it's not even the. I mean, Jesmyn Ward was published that year, but.

[David Harbour]

Oh, okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So here's how the Pulitzers work. We knew.

[David Harbour]

Oh, this I didn't know. Okay, we got some emails about this, but do it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. The three person jury reads a bajillion books and they recommend three finalists to the Pulitzer board. The Pulitzer board is supposed to pick one of those three to be the winner. They have done it every year except for like four times. There's an escape hatch where the board can go back and ask for a fourth option. And they didn't.

[David Harbour]

They just even do it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They just didn't. Yeah, and one of the listeners pointed out on Patreon like Jesmyn Ward, Salvage the Bones came out in 2011. That could have been a contender. There were others. Like. I cannot even bring myself to go back and look at what else came out in 2011 that could have won the 2012 Pulitzer. But as I was way down Michael Cunningham's New Yorker piece about it when he was also. He was one of the jurors in 2012. So I just. They had a way to, to say at least try again. And they didn't. And I. I'm going to be mad about this.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. I mean, it's. It's not what you want. I don't. I don't. What, what do you want me to say? What do you want me to say here?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't know. I'm just here for a little feelings, validation, I guess. There was a way to do it. Use the process, man.

[David Harbour]

It is. It is weird that they didn't use another. They didn't use the escape hatch. They didn't use the. Well, we're not in love with any of these. Give us something else. I mean, I looked at this. Open City came out that year, which I was a huge fan of. I remember hand selling that in the basement of Greenlight Bookstore during an event. The Marriage Plot, Ann Patchett's State of Wonder, Train Dreams by Tenis Johnson.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That was one of the finalists. Yeah.

[David Harbour]

I don't get it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And yeah, Lev Grossman is newly on my hit list because he defended the Pulitzer's decision saying that there's not a masterpiece published in every year. And I'm sorry, I didn't know that it had to be a masterpiece to win a literary award. And I'm looking at you, Rabbit Hutch, which.

[David Harbour]

Where is Master the bet. I mean, it's not in there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's silly. Nowhere in the criteria.

[David Harbour]

It's. It's so dumb.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It was a very ragey rabbit hole.

[David Harbour]

I think Michael Cunningham was even teaching at Columbia in the medicine and literature department at that time in Columbia, of course, if people don't know, administers the. The Pulitzer Prizes. Though Columbia hasn't bathed themselves in glory in a lot of ways of late. Anyway. Okay, so there's some follow up for you. Let's see what else is going on. So for the Patreon that's coming out next week that we're gonna record here pretty quick, we are going to be ranking the short stories in Exit Zero, the new collection from Marie Helene Bertino by how Marine Helene Bertino they are. I have.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It was a fun project.

[David Harbour]

Introduced the basic unit of strangeness, literary strangeness. And it is the Bertino. That is one unit, one Bertino. I might give them a numerical ranking. That might be something that's happening.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is that something you're doing okay?

[David Harbour]

But what I came with it, it's very difficult to do because this is sort of front list foyer. We're on the porch. This is porch foyer that we both read this. It's a great collection. It's a wonderful collection. It's really terrific. And what I ended up doing is how. What degree of confidence would I have if I encountered this story in the wild that I would say that's a Marine.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, I like that.

[David Harbour]

That's how I eventually came down. That's what I'm going to do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I will explain my methods to you when we record for the Patreon.

[David Harbour]

I did get a text you saying this was hard. This is very difficult. So that's coming out over on First Edition this week. The Bertino. My conversation with her about all five of her books in order is available now. Came out yesterday. What came out yesterday? This is stepping on for this Fourier. I interviewed Jane Friedman, who's been a long time chronicler of expert in the publishing industry, especially about self publishing and the various business models. University of Chicago just put out a second edition of her book called the Business of Being a Writer, which is about that explicitly and it is about. So if you want to be a writer, if you want to be a creative person and make some money from it, frankly kind of indispensable. It applies to other things other than just writing about platform building and being a good citizen and like all the ways networking and the things that go into it. But if you're not a writer, I think it's interesting just to see the financial task of being a person who wants to make any or all of their monthly nut on, you know, words. It's not easy. There's stuff, strategically there's a lot of stuff that feels a lot like book riot, to be honest. Like build a platform, get people to know you, participate in things, have a membership, you know, get people, get your followers from the algorithmic platforms into something where they don't have to like be subject to the algorithm. She and I geek out about email for a little while. I'm going to give you some of that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

A most Jeff O'Neill sentence.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, right. But it's really cool. It's a pretty quick read, a wonderful resource. I was reading it in preparation for that interview, of course, but found myself just nodding along. I mean yes, and I forgot. And that is true. So anyway, check out that episode or go to her website if you're interested.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

She's one of the best in the game. Like when I started blogging approximately 1 million years ago, Jane Friedman was one of the first resources that folks in publishing told me like you need to read her to understand the landscape here. And. And she's been covering the current shape of publishing for decades and that current shape has changed quite a lot. That's. I'm looking forward to listening to that.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. The genesis of her kind of switch was to this gig was here giving talks or being an MFA program, but being around MFA and them not really knowing anything about how to make a career of it. Right. Like we talk about this fantasy of you toil away at your debut literary fiction masterpiece and you sell it to a. You get an agent and you sell it to a publisher and you're good. That's it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Step three, profit.

[David Harbour]

Step three forever. Never has thus been the case. And it's even less the cuss. The cuss. The case now. It is the cussing case for sure right now. But there's also a lot more tools. It's like also a lot easier to be an independent writer if you are willing to forgo some of the fantasy of a certain kind of writing life. So it was really good, as you can hear. I thought it was really interesting. So go check that first edition there. Anything else on the Patreon or on the regular pod that people should prepare for? I guess we have it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Books coming up, books of May next week. In a couple of weeks. We're going to. You suggested it last week off the cuff, but I put it on the schedule. We're going to do a little ode to Richard Linklater's before trilogy.

[David Harbour]

We are. Okay. Went into the. Went into the thing. Which one are we doing? Oh, we're doing. We're going to talk all about all three.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think we're going to talk about all three. The family of Before. Before Sunrise, before sunset, Before Midnight. So folks, if you have not seen those, you're in for a treat. They're each like under 90 minutes and it's perfect for summer.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, they all are. Summer. Summer vibes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You will be ruined maybe for so called romantic movies after this.

[David Harbour]

It depends what you want. But I would agree. I would agree if you are wooed by walking around European cities in the gloaming and talking then that it's. It will be that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[David Harbour]

All right, let's do our first sponsor break.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Today's episode is brought to you by eleven Reader. If you read a lot, you may have noticed there is simply too much content sometimes to read for just laptop driven consumption. And if you've been on the hunt for years for the perfect reader app that puts AI audio at the center of its design, I've got something for you. With the advances in AI11 reader, it's just that app. Over the past few months, the 11 reader app has made it onto many an iPhone home screen and easily gets 30 minutes of use a day. With it, you can import articles, PDFs, and eBooks and select from thousands of 11 readers beautiful and multilingual AI voices. Shout out to George and Lily. Try George and Lily. Check out the 11 reader app. If you're looking for the best mobile reader on the planet, it's yours entirely free from the good people at eleven Labs. Thanks again to eleven Reader for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by 8th Note Press, publishers of so Many Somethings From Molly Dunn. By day, Diana works as a cook, but by night she escapes into the Sam Raymond fandom, pinning smutty real person fan fiction, or rpf, about the dreamy rock star and dreaming of becoming a professional writer. Meanwhile, the real Sam is privately struggling with panic attacks and a vocal injury, and he's found comfort in an unlikely place, interacting as s with a clever fic writer in embarrassingly his own fandom. When Sam wanders into Diana's cafe, their worlds collide and a new connection forms over a shared love of music in New York City. As they grow closer in real life, will this pair in in OTP or disaster? So this is a loving ode to fan fiction in a romantic comedy package with notes of you've got MA and thank you for listening. Make sure to check out so Many Somethings by Molly Dunn. And thanks again to 8th Note Press for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by Eleven Reader Publishing from ElevenLabs. Did you know that only 5% of books are made into audiobooks each year? It's a wild stat, but if you've ever done audiobook production, you know how difficult and costly it can be. Which is why the good people at eleven Labs created eleven Reader Publishing. If you're wondering what it is I got you, I'm about to explain it right now. It's a zero cost program to create and share your audiobook directly with their 11 reader app. Simply upload your manuscript, format your text and you're ready to publish enriched immersive audio that's powered by ElevenLabs AI voice technology. Best of all, each time listeners play your book with their pick of AI voices on the app, ElevenLabs rewards the voice actors they've partnered with. It's a pretty cool and great way to bring more books into audio form. So take a look, see what you think from ElevenLabs and the their entirely free Eleven Reader Publishing program. And thanks again to Eleven Reader Publishing from Eleven Labs for sponsoring this episode.

[David Harbour]

You know, I, I don't know. I am so glad I am not part of Neil Gaiman's team in many different ways right now. But I think we can. We need a term for. We know we have like, the Streisand effect where you do something to protect something. Like, you know, we should now call it the careless people effect, frankly, because Meta outdid Streisand in a lot of different ways. And I think this, this Gaiman has sued an accuser who assigned an NDA who had signed an NDA for half million dollars because of NDA. So we're stri. There's a bit of a Streisand effect in just this news story. Yeah, but I think there's sort of like in, in, in, in wrestling, there's the heel turn where the baby face or the, the protagonist, good guy turns into a bad guy. Like, we need a language. Like, I think, I don't know that this has happened. Gaiman, he didn't do it intentionally in terms of becoming a bad guy. I think quite the opposite. But the moment where you kind of, you take an action that's like, oh, that's what the bad guy would do. Right. And the bad guy would sue you for signing your NDA. Not, not that the substance of what you're saying is untrue, but you're now being, you're now enforcing the NDA to protect the skeletons. You're a skeleton protector. That's what it is. You're trying to protect the skeleton.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Now this skeletons are out. Like, the closet is open.

[David Harbour]

He just wants a half a million dollars. Like, I don't know anyway.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Or he wants to push it to a settlement. Like, who knows? Usually, like, often these kinds of lawsuits are about getting to a settlement and ultimately shutting someone up more than they are. Or maybe he just wants revenge. I don't know. Because you're absolutely right. Gaiman invested a lot of time and energy clearly, in appearing to be the good guy and certainly would not have wanted it to come out that he seems to be quite the guy by all of these allegations, dozens of women. But like, this is of course going to come out. And it's definitely Streisand affecting it because Vulture, which published the original, Lila Shapiro's original deeply reported piece about all of the allegations that broke the story, republished it this week. Like it is back on the Vulture homepage in lieu of this news that he is suing one of his accusers for as 500 grand because she broke an NDA that she had signed that she says, like he gave her money at the time, $275,000 in exchange for signing the NDA after the alleged events took place between them. She might have broken that NDA in order to come forward with her allegations. Like, this is what the bad guy would do and he might win in court. Like, it might be that the NDA is still enforceable. Different states have been moving at different paces on the enforceability of NDAs when it comes out that sexual misdeeds were involved. And so it really depends on where this case goes. And honestly, like, what kind of mood the judge is in that day, perhaps how, how they understand that contract, or like there's a different reading of it where signing an NDA in this kind of a situation is a coercive agreement and that might nullify it, but who knows? This is not like, I don't know what kind of advice Neil Gaiman has been getting, but this is not the kind of public behavior that looks like you're following good guidance.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, Lila Shapiro wrote this piece that we're reading, you know, referencing here in Vulture. She also, of course, wrote the, the bombshell overarching, not the original reporting from the Tortoise, but really the one that I think broke through and broke some new ground and got new quotes from people. But in this, in her piece, she cites a lawyer. Well, it's Walner's lawyer, so it's the counterparty, but he is an employment lawyer in New York and his quote is surprised that he would do this because the optics are so poor. And maybe this is, he's come to this conclusion because there's nothing left to lose. And that's sort of the conclusion I came to immediately. Like, this is what you do when you're like, I'm not in the. I do not think I'm a candidate for reputation rehabilitation in the near immediate or even long term future. So I might as well get half a million dollars because probably this NDA will be upheld. And she did break the NDA and she got 275. You know, this is not my personal opinion about NDAs and the ethics of them, but they seem to be, on the whole at this point, pretty, pretty hard to have voided, even though Walner's trying to do so. But, you know, maybe if you think you have a chance of denying or waiting it out or sort of letting maybe settling with some of these, like, again, I don't know how this works, but we've seen this playbook before. I think if you're kind of going to do that model, you don't take this step.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting. Like, the 500,000 that he is suing for, he arrives at this number because they're going for 50 grand for each of the interviews that she has given to the media and because, like, his career is functionally over, his reputation is done. And so there's a different version of this that's like millions and millions of dollars in damages on the end of a career. So that 500,000, I think, is also, like, that's enough money to be very painful for any average citizen if the NDA is upheld. But I find, like, that smells like pettiness to me. And it's not like I have a lot of generosity in my heart for Neil Gaiman at this point anyway. But, like, you know, he could have. He could be making the case that she and the other accusers have utterly ruined him and it's libelous and whatever else he wants to say and go for huge damages. But the like, I'm just gonna ding you for lie.

[David Harbour]

It's not liable if it's true. I mean, that's. I think that's the thing about the end.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But, like, but he is saying that it is not true.

[David Harbour]

Well, the other thing it could be is a warning shot for other women who have signed ndh, may have been interested in. You know, I'm going to join the. The chorus here and I've got a story to tell. Staring down the barrel of a half a million dollars and pl. And that's not including the legal fees that you're going to incorporate.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And he certainly has the resources to pay for a long legal fight, at least for now.

[David Harbour]

At least for now. All right, let's see. Going into it, I. I don't know. I'm not the kind of person that picks up my phone or my Kindle and I'm like, boy, I wish I could fold this in half. Are you this kind of personal person, Rebecca?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No. And some of that is like my. I am a smaller person and I. The pockets on my jeans are not that big. I don't want to fold a Kindle. Like what am I gonna do with a foldable E reader? Also my eyes are middle aged. We were talking big screens.

[David Harbour]

This is the Moo Ink 5. It is an 8 inch folding E Ink screen that's been tested to survive over 200000 bends which is about 199000 more bends that I am tested for that I have left in, in my life cycle. I was thinking about this, I was trying to do a little math. Rebecca, how many Ben, how many licks would it take to get to the center of the Tootsie Roll lollipop here if this became my primary reading device? Right. Oh so let's say I'm reading this and I'm opening closing it 10 times a day. So that gets me to 20,000 days. So that's going to last me 20 years. If I'm, if I'm doing it that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Way then the bendability is going to outlive any other component of that technology of my body.

[David Harbour]

Yes, that's true.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

All your joints, you're on new knees at that point.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, right. So there's also in the offing that fold. I mean there have been some foldable smartphones out there but the big, the big player in the field is rumored, the iPhone of course to have some sort of folding thing coming this fall. That is what I've been told. So I don't know if this is capitalizing on the folding whatever are they trying to get acquired license this technology? It's been around for a while folding OLED screens but this is the first one to have a consumer ready thing. I don't know maybe it's cool if tap the size and it fits in your purse or your backpack or you know you have a smaller kind of a bag. It is an 8 inch touchscreen and it folds into sort of half that. It's really interesting I guess, I guess E readers are so mature at this point that then I guess we had the Kindle, the Color Nooks and Kobos of the worlds. But I guess I just don't see the marginal difference between folding this and just reading on my phone is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that's curious to me. I just, I kind of just don't know who the customer is for a foldable E reader. Like there are some foldable Android phones that have been on the market for a couple of years. My brother in law has one, you can pop the screen up and do things. I've seen Three of them in the wild. And so if that base rate is any kind of indication about interest or lack of interest among the reading public about foldable E readers, then it doesn't seem to be catching on with smartphones, at least not yet. I'd be curious if listeners are down for this. Do you want a fold a foldable E reader and what's the appeal? You can tell [e-mail] I I don't get it. But like it doesn't hurt anything. So more choices on the market. That's great. I don't think it's for me it is interesting too.

[David Harbour]

This company is from Taiwan and they do have the largest ebook retail service. So this is, you know, this might be, you know, something they've seen. They want to keep people interested in their platform and some kind of interesting device that has a halo effect of getting people into their platform is certainly has value. This also does use a 300dpi color e ink screen and that is not something that's available elsewhere. That's not even what the Kindle has. So that is different. That is different. I also have relatively large hands. So like at some level a small device is a bug, not a feature for mine.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We're coming from opposite ends of the spectrum on our device preferences there.

[David Harbour]

That's very true. There this we're I'd like to enter exhibit number 3928 into what exactly are the economics of audiobook narration?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Again, exactly why this is on the agenda today.

[David Harbour]

And what is this, Rebecca? What's happening?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Cynthia Erivo, you know, who starred as Elphaba in the Wicked adaptation, is going to narrate a new audiobook edition. How much is she getting paid?

[David Harbour]

And I don't really care, I guess. I mean I'm sure they've I'm more interested I'm voyeuristically interested in the economics of this. I'm also voyeuristically interested in why didn't this happen before the first movie came out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

A great question, like because they were confident going into Wicked that it was as confident as a studio can be that a movie is going to perform. So why not?

[David Harbour]

I guess if it bombed, which I don't know and you had this audiobook performed. But like if they had signed up what's his Wasn't Miles Teller in the Goldfinch? Like who was in the Goldfinch? If they had signed up, maybe they did. If they had signed up one of the stars to re record the Goldfish and the Thing just absolutely face plants, then you've got a problem. But I feel like the high, I feel like the opportunity cost of waiting a year on this was way worse than the possible downside of it being a turkey.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And like this is, you know, RB Media, which is a huge producer of audiobooks. They're separate from other publishers. But we've also wondered like the halo of Wicked stuff has weird timing this year. Like the Elfie book came out much later on the heels or is coming out much later on the heels of the Wicked film. Then like we would have put it on release weekend like go see the movie, pick up the book. This also just does seem to be late. I'm sure people have reasons for this. Maybe Cynthia Erivo is busy. Who knows they're trying to build momentum for the second one. Having not. I'm not familiar with Wicked, but I've heard the second half of the show is a lot messier and there are a lot of questions about what the second half of the film series will be. So maybe this is shore that up by getting audiobook interest with Cynthia Erivo. She has a lovely voice. It will be very nice and pleasant to listen. Listen to her narrate just about anything. I think it's smart from there. But I'm very interested in why now, why not before?

[David Harbour]

Have you ever heard of an audiobook of an adaptation getting re recorded with the full cast of the movie doing the voices of their parts in the thing? Because we see these full cast recordings like the one that blew me away was the Lincoln and the Bardo for Saunders which had like a bunch of celebrities actors that you've heard of. Is that a celebrity? Probably, I guess. Guess that's maybe the definition that would seem like it would make a ton of sense but maybe the, the, the diminishing returns like Erivo does that give you 80% of if you had Ariana Grande and Jonathan Bailey and Michelle Yeoh and Goldblum, like maybe you get to 80% of the wear for they. For 10% of the cost and complexity.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And a couple of months ago I linked to an interview with a freelance audiobook narrator who was talking about the economics of it and she said in that piece that audiobook narrators, at least the traditional ones are paid by the finished recorded hour.

[David Harbour]

Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Of so it's, it's not like it took me 25 hours to get this done. It's here's your 12 hour audiobook and you're paid for the finished product. I wonder if that applies to. Does that model apply to celebrity narrators? Is it just a big dollar amount to come on down and do this? I can't imagine that they're giving you the same hourly rate for.

[David Harbour]

No, I think these are bespoke deals.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Let'S put it that way. Tell us what's happening.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, interesting. Let's see. The states are getting together. I saw this yesterday around tariffs, state suing for the Trump tariffs. But a similar thing is happening. A Kelly reported on this. I'm sorry, Katie. This was, she rounded this up. Didn't report on it, but rounded up in one of our newsletters for check your shelf link in the show notes. 21 states are suing the Trump administration for you know, they're illegal and unconstitutional as we said before. Is it, does it comprise disintegrating essentially these staffs to do in this particular way? Even though they're not gone, they're largely gutted. So we're going to see, we are going to see all the constitutional lawyers out there are going to be busy for a while.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, they really are. And I'll say if you have any interest in this kind of stuff and want to understand it a little bit more, more. I've recommended the Strict Scrutiny podcast on the show before. It continues to be a terrific resource hosted by three women who are constitutional lawyers and constitutional law professors. They have not gotten specifically into like the book banning stuff or the IMLs, but they are constantly keeping us updated on what it means. What is going on with the courts, what can the courts do and what can they not do? And what are the latest, you know, big cases. But how could the courts intervene or respond to allegations that the Trump administration is doing things that are illegal and unconstitutional? And it's, it's very helpful and often encouraging.

[David Harbour]

So sometimes you can use a very simple heuristic, decide if you're on the right side of something. And I would like to enter. I would maybe we can, we can call it the, the gaming gambit. Right. We just named that the heel turn like we said. You know what? I just, my best outcome is just to embrace my, my bad guy. The dark side here. Let's call this the Pride Puppy heuristic, in which case if you just take a plain view, non legal kind of human understanding of a case and you are on the other side of a book called Pride Puppy, an Alphabet primer about a family whose puppy gets lost at a pride parade. You're just the heuristic here is you're probably wrong if you're on the other side of this, you're probably wrong. I don't maybe need to know the ins and outs, and maybe I'm technically wrong. But in the court of rightness, the court of rightness has ruled. And if you're on the other side of Pride Puppy, you are wrong. Rebecca, you're wrong.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I agree.

[David Harbour]

Okay. Do you want to tell people what this actually is rather than sort of just made up oneills rules of order that I just concocted from nothing?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. So the Supreme Court, speaking of what the courts can and can't do, is going to hear a case brought by parents in Maryland who they say that they have a religious right to withdraw their children from classes in public schools, schools on days that the storybooks have gay or transgender themes in them. Cases being heard this week, the court has heard like or has considered what this piece by Adam Liptak notes is an unusual pile of briefs, pleadings, declarations, and exhibits. And among the books that these parents are objecting to are Pride Puppy, Love Violet, which is about a girl who develops a crush on her female classmates, Uncle Bobby's Wedding, about a same sex union, and Born Ready, about a transgender boy. This is happening in Montgomery County Public Schools. The books were added to the curriculum back in 2022 for students in pre K through fifth grade. The school systems list included a handful of storybooks that feature LGBTQ characters. And they go to pains to note here that these are alongside the many books already in the curriculum that feature heterosexual characters in traditional gender roles. The school system gave parents notice when the storybooks were to be discussed, along with the opportunity to have their children excused from those sessions. But then the school system eliminated the advanced notice and opt out policy because it was hard to administer, and it led to absenteeism. And it risked exposing students who believe the storybooks represent them and their families to social stigma and isolation. So parents who want that process reinstated have taken. Have taken this all the way to the Supreme Court, and we will find out exactly how far in defense of parents rights, or so called parents rights, the Supreme Court is willing to go here.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, I just. I'm so far away from trying to figure out a way of understanding, or actually, I do understand it. I understand their point of they think their kids are being brainwashed by whatever ideology is because their ideology sucks, frankly. And when they think about inclusiveness and the ways of being in the world, and I don't have any sympathy here. Rebecca, how much would you pay? Okay, let me. Actually, let's put it this way. You have to pay $400 to attend a book week.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is it reimbursable for my employer?

[David Harbour]

No, you're paying it out of your hard earned ducats here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't like.

[David Harbour]

What would that look like? Oh, what could that look like? Within reason. A reasonable case.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay, so I have to spend $400 to attend a book festival. That's right.

[David Harbour]

You got an extremely strange. Fine. Let's put it to a court order. I don't know what you. What happened here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It needs to include authors that I can't easily see in other places. Maybe like a Donna Tartt, somebody who's kind of reclusive, doesn't make a lot of appearances. Like there needs to be a scarcity thing happening to make me willing to pony up a lot of money. I probably, for 400 bones, want to be able to have like some kind of interaction or the option to have some kind of interaction with the writers. Like just sitting in the audience listening to writers talk about where their ideas came from. Even if you're Donna Tartt is not going to be worth $400 to me. And then I would like to go to a fancy party.

[David Harbour]

I think mine would have to be in a place I want to go to anyway. And I skipped the event and I just eat the $400.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's cheating.

[David Harbour]

But okay, what we're both saying here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I would like it to be in the Maldives.

[David Harbour]

There you go. In that case, you're spending more than $400. But I hear what you're saying here. So Jenna Bush Hager is starting a read with Jenna book festival. You and Vanessa had a entertaining conversation about other book related events that are high $.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You want to revisit those?

[David Harbour]

I think I would prefer never to have known that that happened. I even regret linking to it in today in books. So that was there for you all to even know about at all. I brought this on myself. But this is going to be in Nashville, which is cool. It's going to have Hildebrand, Alison Espach, Romana Lam, and Patchett others there. Patchett, of course, is in Nashville. Or Parnassus Books is there. There's gonna be book club discussions, signings, meet and greets, a live recording of the pod and live performers. Is that when I read live performers, my mind instantly goes to jugglers. What's the percentage? Those are jugglers? Probably.01%.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Magic.

[David Harbour]

Yeah, close. Magic. Yeah. They're gonna be pulling coins from behind Jenna Bush Hager.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, there's a. There's like a singer songwriter who's Performing. We're in Nashville, so there's a lot of possibility.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. Her mom famously, Barbara Bush, started the Texas Book Festival. So she knows from what she speaks here it's a two day festival. May 30th and 31st. She's doing this. We're doing free ads for this thing all of a sudden. But you know what, it's gonna be held at the W Nashville and is sponsored the Nashville Music City. So they're getting some ducats, I think back from it. Yes. But the thing that raised both of our eyebrows is the general admission experience. How dare you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

399.

[David Harbour]

Just call it. Just call it general admission. Just. I don't like calling it experience. 399. The VIP experience is 699.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[David Harbour]

And there you go.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The National Book Festival happens in Washington D.C. every summer and draws the same caliber of authors, like big names. And you can go see them for free. The LA Times Festival of the Book does this. The Texas Book Festival does this. There are book festivals all over the place that you can go to. And I'm not saying they should all be free. Like book people got to make money too. But $399 to go to. It's basically a one day convention. It's only on Saturday unless you pay for the VIP package, which is another $200. And then you get to go to like a Friday night thing.

[David Harbour]

Might we look at the speck of dust? How much did we charge for Book Riot Live? Do you remember?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't remember. It was not $399.

[David Harbour]

Also. It was 10 years ago. And inflation's a real bear. I think it was 100 bucks maybe for two days.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And it was two full days. And there were dozens of authors and dozens of papers.

[David Harbour]

We know these things are expensive, right? You're putting the whole thing on.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Putting on an event is expensive.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. And I'd be curious to how much the authors are getting paid. How many, how many tickets are there? Like, the whole thing is fascinating.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's only six weeks away. Like this is happening on May 20th and 21st, or 30th and 31st, something like that. And this is not a lot of time, like to get people who are.

[David Harbour]

It suggests to me they think it's going to sell out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. And I mean, maybe it's few enough to. I don't know how big the space is, but like if it's a couple hundred, you could do that with just Nashville residents. If there are like, Jenna Bush Hager has a high enough profile that maybe you can sell that to just people in and around state.

[David Harbour]

Like, where is the state? Like, is it at the hotel? Is it a few hundred people? Is it a thousand people? Like, what are we talking about if.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You have to travel? Like, I am flying into Nashville to go on a trip later this year. That ticket was like $500. So 500 bucks for an airline ticket, plus 399 for the basic admission to this thing, plus all of your food and drink, plus a hotel. Like who? I do not know unless Toni Morrison is resurrected, that there is an author. I would spend a thousand dollars in travel to go see or literally play.

[David Harbour]

Percival Everton ping pong. I would do that. I mean if that's. If it's sort of a lifetime sports mixer and me like darts, like kind of a great progressive bar game.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I would, I would bid on play Percival Everton ping pong like in a silent auction. That's a great. That is a great item.

[David Harbour]

Do you think he's good at ping pong? Something about it makes you thinks he's good at ping pong.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think even if he's terrible at it, you'd have a great time. I don't think his ping pong skill is relevant here.

[David Harbour]

If he's no good, it's not worth it. He has to be put up a fight.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, this is a huge. This is a big ticket. It's a big ticket and it probably will sell out. And the first thing that I thought, like, I'm very glad to see that the author lineup is very diverse. But when I saw Jenna Bush Hager Book Festival tickets are 399, I thought all of the photos of this event are going to be white ladies.

[David Harbour]

Well, yeah, I think they know a little bit better now. Then again, this still happens. People make mistakes. I think Hager herself is savvy enough and has been in the publishing. She knows. At least someone on our team knows the conversations about this stuff happening. The thing that this always brings back to me is couldn't. Why doesn't. Why don't the major publishers have their own events like this and make money from it? Yeah, each one. You could call it whatever you want.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And you should call it Penguin Festival.

[David Harbour]

No, no, no. You. You could call it whatever like Manhattan Reads or. But like there I think it is proof and I'm assuming they know what they're doing and this will be a success at some point if they sell the tickets. I'm sure they've done their spreadsheets that it comes out. But Hager plus The authors. If you just had the authors, you could do it and cut Hager out and make some money and do the whole thing your own way. This is the thing that kind of frustrates me about this particular is the authors and the books are a draw. People want to do this. You could have a traveling roadshow and make money off of it this way. You could even use it as platforming. Some authors that you want to get in front of people because they're going to be in convo, they're going to be there. You could. You know, there's a lot of things that you could do. I continue to be confused about why one of the. If there is one advantage that publishers have by no one caring, to a first approximation, who published your book, is that you can make the authors the star of the show. Do it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, just. Yeah, just do that. And also, like, asking readers to pay for the privilege of being able to buy more books, especially at $399 just to get in the door, is like, I have a lot of, like, in this economy, feelings about, listen, if you.

[David Harbour]

Can do it, I say do it. Like, do I have. No. If someone will buy a ticket for it, buy a ticket for it. Like, I don't begrudge the cost of front row seats at whatever concert you're going to. And this is the. This is the bookish equivalent that. Not, as I said to you yesterday, not how my particular passions are organized is how I would put this here. But if. If there's a business to be had in paying for this and doing it this way, go forth with God. The thing that I am confused by is like, is. Is Jenna Bush herself enough of a difference? Like, if this was called the Music City Reads Festival with Ann Patchett, Emma Straub, Roman Alam, and, you know, the people that are headlining it, how many fewer tickets do they sell and how much less would you have to charge? I think that's an interesting question, though.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's a great point. And like, you could. I mean, Ann Patchett alone has incredible connections and could get authors of the same caliber and same level of profile. She could get big names to come on down and participate in a book festival. Or if her publisher wanted to partner with her and do something like that, the how much do you have to charge? I think is interesting. Like, I don't know what the economics of the National Book Festival are, how much the government invests.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. I mean, it's a different conversation, right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

In making that free. But like, I hear you about. If you can do it, and you can make your $400 on tickets, and people will come. Go with God. But I also just have a. Like, like, are we really doing this? Like, $400 for one day to see a dozen authors talk? Like, and the chances.

[David Harbour]

We're also old, though. I mean, I am. I'm this way, which, like, things are just more expensive than we're used to. Like, we went to the movies yesterday, and I don't want to be the old guy with a movie, but it was like, a hundred bucks for us to go to the movies.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

80% of the people who attended Coachella did it on buy now, pay later plans. Like, this is. These are troubling times. But, like, the thing that these authors all have in common is that they were read with Jenna book selections, and that's the only thing they have in common. So, like, we know that to a first approximation, even a heavy reader in this country is reading 10 or 12 books. How many people will have read enough of these authors to be like, yes, I'm going to go spend $400?

[David Harbour]

It also could be aspirational. My mom, my. My friends and I love this book. We're looking to do something like, we also know that there's a lot of identity built up in this stuff. And if this is like Coachella for books in your neighborhood, like, this is the thing you can do to spend money on it, I kind of make sense to me. I. I am more the positioning of. I think. I think it's a smart. I'm on the position. I think this is a smart thing for the read with Jenna brand to do. I think Rhys is probably looking at this very. With very interested and very interested party in the ticket prices and sales here, because Hollywood is a different ball game than Jenna Bush Hager hosting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. On this particular show. I mean, Coachella for books has a different lineup than.

[David Harbour]

I don't know that it has to. I really don't think it does.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't think they're like, this is not a.

[David Harbour]

There is no cool, though. There is no cool in books. That's what I'm saying. You don't have to be cool. You can do it this way. The book club Hager pick is the cool equivalent of books. Whether we like it or not, it is. Well, at least. At least that's going to get people into the seats at the W hotel.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'll be over in the Maldives. You can tell me how it goes.

[David Harbour]

I mean, I am going to be, you know, working on my spinser forever. Because now I think. I think I've got to think about how to handle his backhand.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is this your version of, like, carpool karaoke? You play ping pong with authors?

[David Harbour]

No, but that's a wonderful idea and I'm going to pursue that vigorously, starting immediately after we're done recording.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I look forward to your YouTube series.

[David Harbour]

Let's do another sponsor break.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Today's episode is brought to you by Camcat Books, publishers of the Premonitions Club by Gwendolyn Womack. When Liv hall and her friends find boxes of letters hidden in her grandfather's attic, they discover hundreds of psychic predictions addressed to the Premonitions Bureau, a bureau to investigate psychic abilities that mysteriously closed in 1993. A post online about the found predictions alerts a black ops group in charge of the military's paranormal research who will do anything to get their hands on the letters. Liv and her friends now know too much. To survive, they're going to have to rely on each other and the unlikely help of psychics who thought they left the dangers of the Bureau behind forever. Now, let me. Let me give you a little tea on this. The author of the Premonitions Club was inspired to write this book by the discovery of a real Premonitions bureau that used to exist from the late 60s to the early 90s. And they researched psychic predictions. If you said, girl, what I did too. Let's pick up the Premonitions Club by Gwendolyn Womack so we can get to the bottom of this mystery together. And thanks again to Camcat Books for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by 8th Note Press, publishers of the Movie Magic series by Karen Healy. Stitch witch and costume designer Marni Taylor knew she was taking a risk when she left her stable studio job to work on the film adaptation of her favorite fantasy book series. But she didn't expect supernatural sabotage on set or her inconvenient but pressing attraction to the leading man. Then there's a lister writer, Adams, right, who was excited for something new, like the lead in an adaptation of an iconic series, for instance. Instead, he's trapped with a terrible script and a cursed production, plagued by mysterious problems. And for some reason, he can't stop making an idiot of himself in front of the gorgeous costume supervisor. The movie Magic series has bespoke and bespelled a cozy romance novella with witches set on the film set of a Lord of the Rings, like fantasy filming in New Zealand, of course. Then there's the sequel novella, savory and Supernatural, which features a New couple and plenty of supernatural mystery and more on set hijinks. Make sure to check out both of them. And thanks again to 8th Note Press for sponsoring this episode.

[David Harbour]

Do you want to say more about Exit 0? Because the Patreon. So tell people about this that aren't gonna do the Patreon thing about Exit Zero.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Exit Zero, yeah. This is just our front list foyer, which is brought to you by Thriftbooks. As always, Exit 0 by Marie Helene Bertino. Wonderful short story collection. As we were saying, she is. Well, you were talking about the units of weirdness. Like there is some weirdness to her books, but it's not. It doesn't feel like performative weird or hey, look at this weird thing I can do. Just like to me, her observations and the way that she writes about humanity feel very much like, look at how we just all are here. And the weirdness that she infuses into the stories serves that purpose. A lot of these are concerned with loss, with connection or the failure to connect or a connection that's like broken relationships that are ending or have just ended. And then there are some. There's like a middle. There's a vampire who's been middle aged forever for like centuries.

[David Harbour]

I mean I have days. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And it's. I mean it's just terrific. I really enjoyed. I just really enjoyed Exit Zero. So I'm looking forward to our Patreon recording where we will rank the Marie Helene Bertino stories by how Marie Helene Bertino they are. And then I also just wanted to note while we're here in front list foyer, which you can see all of our [e-mail] BRpodcast I read searches by Vahini Vara and I talked with Vanessa about it last week and I just needed to make words at you about it because it is so good and I need you to read it.

[David Harbour]

I know you're this. You're. It's. I will read this. I. I'm busy with stuff and my frontless foyer will I. I want to read this. You can see my hand. You can't see because it's on video, but Rebecca can see my hand going over my brow like, yes, I know, I know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's so good. I had not finished it yet when I talked about it last week, so I have finished it. She like has this ongoing conversation throughout the book with basic, with ChatGPT, like with an AI chatbot where she is feeding pieces of her book into it, asking it questions about things. At one point she collaborates on a chapter with ChatGPT, which was the original. Like that was, I think, published in the New Yorker. And that was the piece that went viral that launched this whole project. But it gets like, just when I thought I knew what she was doing, she added something else to the mix. It was continually surprising, just fascinating. And I think exactly the book about what does being a person mean when we have. What does it mean to be alive when we have technology? That the pitch for it is that it feels like you're talking to something that is alive. The, you know, the title, the subtitle of the book is Selfhood in the Digital Age. And she like, this is the book I wanted to read. Like, it's not dry, it's not academic. It gets to the questions of like, personhood and art through a really creative lens. I mean, I'm gonna ride for searches for the rest of the.

[David Harbour]

Okay, fine, fine. I'll read your damn book. All right?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And read it in print.

[David Harbour]

That's what you have said. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Or you could do it digitally, but like, I don't think so.

[David Harbour]

No ears. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is not one for audio because the form is really interesting.

[David Harbour]

Let's see. I've got a bunch of stuff I could do. So I'm going to be with Lib on all the books next week talking about a couple April 29th releases. So I'm going to hold off on those. I don't want to spoil that show. I'll mention them on front list for you next week. Here I mentioned Enough Is Enough by Gabe Henry, that he was on First Edition. I got a couple of language ones. So that was one that's about the 500 year sort of campaign to simplify English spelling. I just finished listening to To Pronoun trouble by John McWhorter.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, how was that?

[David Harbour]

It was terrific. On audio, it was a little hard to follow because there's so much language stuff. But look, he's a professional linguist and he. I don't know that he's fluent in all these languages references, but he can do a capable fake of. You know, here's how it would have been in French and here's how it would have been in Dutch and here's the Latin and he's performing all that. Each chapter is about a pronoun and how it came to be that way and how they are weird. The one that got me into it was a version of. He has been a columnist for the Times for a while and I would say I have. He has some heterodox opinions and I don't agree with all of them, but I find him an interesting thinker and on language, especially interesting about the using they as a singular pronoun. And his idea was one thing we could do. One problem with that, just not politically, but just on the language level, is using it to be a person of indeterminate gender. But then you introduce number trouble, right? Is it one person is multiple people in certain contexts, it can be confusing. Well, what if you capitalize they when you're referring to a single person? Like, you capitalized I and that gets you around the problem. And I was like, done and done. I want to try that. I'm going to try actually using it myself. But then he does similar things with, you know, I and you. Well, you know what pronouns are. The one that blew the observation that. That blew me away. And there's a lot of them about language is that we. Language evolves and we mess with and have dialect and slang around all parts of speech, except for prepositions. We don't make up a new. And we don't make up an O4 or by.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We come up with new verbs.

[David Harbour]

We come with new verbs and nouns and. But those. Those sort of. I don't even know what you call them. Like, the traffic lights of the sentences don't change even as we change the cars we're driving on the roads even.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

As you're saying it. I'm remembering, like, sitting in English classes as a kid and hearing and. But. Or nor for so yet.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. Slang for and what's. Like I said, it's so foreign to our way of thinking. But I'd never seen it. And that's my favorite kind of observation.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is, like, right there in front of us. What we get is that, like, we've shortened, though T H O U G H to T H O for texts sometimes. But that's not. That's not really a new one.

[David Harbour]

It's not a preposition, though. I think that's a subordinate clause. I'm just now doing my part.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, wow. Nerd corner.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. Anyway, so that was really cool.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I like that.

[David Harbour]

What else did I. I guess that's. I feel like there was something else. It's all. It's all stuff I'll talk about next week that comes out. But those are two. I know the Business of Being a Writer by Jane Friedman. I guess I wanted to shout that out as well there. And you can find all these books on thriftbooks.com because they've got 19 million books of which these 6 or 4 or 3 or however we talked about are certainly available there. If you want to go pick up a copy of no Reservations and get into it. And so this one sounds like it. So we're. Let's do three minutes of this 1976 Provincetown. Banderas is cast with Dominic Cess, who play I. So this is this, this is the fry house with the. The pirate chefs. That's what we're doing, right? Is that what we're doing with like these roguish, misogynistic, but lovable?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think so. I think this is Origins, this is.

[David Harbour]

Body, but somehow, I guess christened or somehow heroic fry cook slash chef slash kitchen tyrant.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Do you think we get a dreamy like de. Aged Dominic Sessa eating an oyster in France having his bourdain?

[David Harbour]

I don't think anyone cares about that. I think it's going to be Dominic Cessa walking in here and idolizing this and getting his mind blown and doing lots of weed and it will.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And many other drugs. All the drugs.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. Having some encounters with bridesmaids during the wedding party. Stuff that'll be interesting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There's gonna be smoking in this movie. Like, there's not smoking in movies anymore. But you can't make like a Bourdain Kitchen Confidential situation.

[David Harbour]

Yeah. Actually, Miles Teller is playing a Marlboro Red. Like he got cast as a. As a cigarette.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

He's got to bounce back from that really bad situation he made for Apple TV.

[David Harbour]

I mean, coming off Top Gun 2, he's got to look at Glenn Powell and just be like, God damn it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

When Glenn Powell had the whole link later run before and after Top Gun too. Like, he's pal's got the hook up.

[David Harbour]

I know, I know. I think actually, you know what the Goldfinch was Ansel Elgort, I think, who's had his own trials and tribulations. I got them confused in the earlier career. Don't need to besmirch Miles Teller.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Pick a tall blonde, like, square white dude.

[David Harbour]

Any one of us could play a cigarette in this. I don't have hair. I'm available. My quotes low just.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You just want to be there for the hang.

[David Harbour]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

On the boarding set.

[David Harbour]

I, you know, I couldn't. I wouldn't have lasted 45 minutes in this kitchen in 1976. No, there's just no version of me that would have been able to understand, participate in, or even frankly grok at any level what's happening in that situation. Anyway, we need to do a few minutes on that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's going to be a good time.

[David Harbour]

It's great casting by the way.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's a great casting move.

[David Harbour]

I don't think I could have done any better. Weirdly, the professional casters out thought me when it came to casting this movie. I know that's strange.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Love it when they get something right.

[David Harbour]

All right, thanks everybody. Bookriot.com Listen for the show notes. Check out the the Patreon you can find link there. Shoot us an email podcastookriot.com if you want to communicate with us, especially if you know you were Cynthia Riva's audiobook agent. I don't even know if that's a thing. Let us know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Tell us what we don't know.

[David Harbour]

Thanks everybody. Rebecca. We'll talk to you soon. Hey everyone, it's Dan Souza from America's Test Kitchen. I'm super excited to let you all know that we're launching a new video podcast that takes you behind the scenes into the messy, imperfect but riveting day.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

To day life right here in our Test kitchen.

[David Harbour]

Not only do I get to talk to my colleagues about the latest taste test they attended, I just came from a tasting of salted caramel apple pie.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Bars and then roasted garlic.

[David Harbour]

So I apologize. Or about a recipe. Be there developing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The thing about this recipe is it's a secret. The restaurateur refuses to tell people what her secret ingredients are.

[David Harbour]

We also chat with amazing guests from the culinary world and beyond. The lamest joke I've ever said, I said to Marie Manberg.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Definitely sweet jokes.

[David Harbour]

Thanks. Thanks Anne. Make sure to subscribe to in the Test Kitchen so you don't miss an episode. You can watch in the Test Kitchen on YouTube and Spotify and listen to.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Harbour]

Can't wait to see you in the Test Kitchen.