Loading summary
Transcript75 lines
- [00:00]
A
Meet Dan.
- [00:01]
B
Hey, how's it going?
- [00:02]
A
Dan has big life goals.
- [00:03]
B
I'd love to own a home one day.
- [00:05]
A
Numerica Credit Union is the perfect partner to help make Dan's goals come to life.
- [00:09]
C
They are? Yeah.
- [00:10]
A
We help you manage your money with confidence, using tools and guidance tailored to your goals. So whether you're building breathing room into your budget or saving for your dream home, like me, Numerica is there every step of the way because your goals and your life matters. Numerica Credit Union Money where it matters. Federally insured by NCUA.
- [00:32]
C
Incoming transmission. Hello, this is Matt and McKinley from History Dispatches. We are the father son duo, bringing you the weird, the wild, the wacky and the craziest tales from across time. From the Ice bowl to the Great Heathen army and the head of Oliver Cromwell. The same head they kept on a pike for three years. Yep. All here on History Dispatches. New episodes every weekday. Find out more@history dispatches.com or wherever you get your podcast app. This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill. Today on the show, I have an interview with Dhonielle Clayton, chair of We Need Diverse Books, and Caroline Richmond, executive editor of We Need Diverse Books, about the state of book banning, censorship and inclusion in the U.S. what's going on, what can be done, how you can support their organization, how you can support your local libraries and schools, the history of We Need Diverse Books and the push for inclusivity and diversity in books and reading. A really good interview. I've admired what they've been doing, really, since they got started more than 10 years ago. So stick around for that on the show today. We'll be back next week with news and talk. As always, go check out Zero to well Read if you haven't already. Momentum picking up over there. You can listen to Hamlet. Never Let Me Go, The Great Gatsby. Their Eyes Were Watching. God, a lot of stuff you can pick from over there. And stuff still coming. So go check that out. All right, here's my conversation with Dhonielle Clayton and Caroline Richmond of We Need Diverse Books.
- [02:08]
D
Today's episode is sponsored by Papercuts, publishers of the New Adventures of Zootopia 2 Better Zether, written by Joe Caramagna and illustrated by Carlo Gianluca Papi and Marco Forcelloni. After solving Zootopia's biggest mystery, ZPD officers Hopps and Wilde are ready to make the world an even better place. Whether they're dealing with a delicious exploding package or a suspicious foundling, Judy and Nick realize that not every case is huge, but they are all important. With each new assignment, these unlikely partners are learning how to work together along with their fellow Zootopians to save the day and their city. Papercuts New Adventure Series Celebrates Disney with all new stories and adventures with your favorite characters. Hit the streets of Zootopia with Officers Hopps and Wild in a new adventure produced in partnership with Disney. The New Adventures of Disney Zootopia 2, Volume 1, Better Together will be available in both hardcover and paperback format at kid friendly price points. Pre order from your favorite bookseller now and thank you once again to Papercuts for sponsoring Today's Show Foreign.
- [03:16]
E
Is brought to you by Bloomsbury Publishing, publishers of the Marvel Age of Comics series. A series of concise, affordable, beautifully designed books that explore the history of over 85 years of Marvel Comics. The series is an epic, deep dive into the creators, characters and cultural forces that shape the Marvel universe. Launching with volumes on Daredevil, the Avengers and Doctor Strange, this series is a must read for fans of comics, superheroes and pop culture history. You can start your collection and pre order all three today. I also think they'd make great gifts for the comic book lovers in your life, which might include yourself. They include everything from Doctor Strange's debut in 1963 to the mighty Avengers versus the 1970s and also the fall and defiant rise of Matt Murdock in Daredevil Born Again. So make sure to check out Marvel Age of Comics. And thanks again to Bloomsbury Publishing for sponsoring this episode.
- [04:16]
F
This episode is brought to you by Rakuten. If you're shopping while working, eating or even listening to this podcast, then you know and love the thrill of a deal. But are you getting the deal and cash back? Rakuten shoppers? Do they get the brands they love? Savings and cash back? And you can get it too. Stack sales on top of cash back and feel what it's like to know you're maximizing savings. It's easy to use and you get cash back sent to you through PayPal or check. The idea is simple. The brands you love pay Rakuten for sending them shoppers and Rakuten shares the money with you as cash back. Download the free Rakuten app or go to rakuten.com to start saving today. It's the most rewarding way to shop. That's R A K U t e n rakuten.com.
- [05:01]
C
All right, I have Caroline Richmond and Dhonielle Clayton from We Need Diverse Books, an organization I've followed for really since I'VE been doing book riot at all, and seeing how y' all have changed and grown, I think the first question I'd like to ask is more of a general one for people who maybe this is their first exposure to what you guys do. I'm not sure the best person you guys can decide. Can someone give me an overall view of the programs that we need diverse books offers and, you know, the spirit in which it was born and operates?
- [05:32]
B
Sure. Well, I can start off in terms of origins. We actually started as a hashtag on Twitter back in 2014. There was was a panel at an upcoming bookcon that caused a lot of chatter online because the panel itself was all white CIS straight men. So there are a lot of questions about, like, what about, you know, a diversity of voices? Where are they? So that kind of spun off a bunch of authors, illustrators, publishing folks, educators, book lovers all came together to share in April 2014 why we need diverse books using the weneediverse books hashtag. And it ended up going viral on Twitter. And ultimately that became a rallying cry for people all around the world. And from that, we were able to get initial seed funding to turn a hashtag into a grassroots movement and then into a formal 501C3 nonprofit.
- [06:38]
C
That 2014 Bookcon was a pivotal moment. It was the only time I've ever been quoted in the New York Times not to make this about me. I tweeted the one I used to tweet, and it was used to call Twitter. There are more cats than people of color on the speakers lineup for that book con. And like that. That was, you know, I was just a part of many people making observation. And that was a real bright line. And so it got started that way. And then seed funding for, like, this is a huge. It's a systemic problem, the lack of diversity in libraries and publishing. How do you tackle this? Because books are so big, there's so many factors. How do you guys go about deciding, or how did it go about deciding? How has it changed? Like, where you can have sort of the highest leverage with your resources, attention, and energies, I would say.
- [07:24]
B
So we serve three main communities at we need diverse books. And what we're trying to do is, is enacting change across the entire reading pipeline. So it starts with diverse creators themselves, who usually have many more systemic and financial barriers in getting published. So part of our programs are offering mentorships, grants, workshops to help diverse writers and illustrators learn about the industry, hone their craft, and get published. The second community would be the publishing industry itself. So all the people working at publishing houses and literary agencies who are the ones deciding which books are getting acquired, edited, designed, produced, published, that end up at your library or bookstore. So we realized too, that if we wanted diverse books, we needed to help diversify the industry that creates them.
- [08:20]
C
So we have supply attack the supply side, for lack of a better oversimplify, grossly.
- [08:25]
B
Exactly. So we are helping college students, grad students, get their foot in the door of a very competitive industry that's still very much apprentice based. So so many people are still starting as interns and then working their way up the ladder. So it's helping them get onto that ladder in the first place. And then the third community we work with are the teachers, librarians, students, and readers all over because they're the ones who are reading the diverse stories. So we also have programs that are providing diverse books to classrooms and libraries and also providing resources and grants to educators so that they are able to make their shelves more inclusive.
- [09:07]
C
Daniel, I'd like to ask you this because you also have a lot of experience working with publishers to make books, and I'm curious about your own longitudinal experience here. Like, do you feel on the supply side, on the industry side, that things are different than they were 10, 11 years ago? What's, what's better? What's worse? What are, what are the still barriers? What's the hard stuff on the sub, on the supply side from the publishing industry?
- [09:30]
G
Oh, that's a huge question.
- [09:32]
C
I'm sorry. Take any little tiny piece of it. That's. No, I meant more approachable than others.
- [09:37]
G
I just meant that you want me to crash out because I have a lot of feelings about this.
- [09:42]
C
Oh, no.
- [09:43]
G
So I think that when we need diverse books kicked off, we expose so many issues at every level. And then we were like, okay, let's get the books in there. Let's do that. A lot of people answered the call. We got the books in there. Ten years of working on those stats from the ccbc, helping authors, helping publishers, and then in comes the dark orange cloud. And now everyone. We've been through this before and the orange cloud is back. And now everyone acts like they can't edit and they can't acquire and they just don't have the light on above their desk anymore. So what I'm seeing now is a, an obeying in advance, people restricting their lists, now cutting all their dei, which means that they're not acquiring diverse titles. They're saying, I couldn't connect. It's the same rejections from 10 years ago, the whole nonsense is back because they don't want to deal with the higher ups having to deal with Trump being an and all of his lackeys bothering everyone. And then you've got all of the underbelly of America, the racists, the bigots, the anti Semites, the Islamophobes have come out into the sunshine and they're harassing librarians and teachers and authors. And it's hitting the bottom line, making a whole bunch of noise. So publishers like, why should I invest in a trans voice if they're going to get banned, if they're going to not get distribution, if they're going to be run out of libraries, all of that stuff, instead of being brave, they've turned into cowards. So I feel like we are back.
- [11:26]
C
I'm going to try not to crash out either, because so much of what you said, you're so much closer to it than I am. And you're in rooms that I'm not in. I'm observing and reading and I'm looking at catalogs and talking to some people too, maybe. Let's take one step back, sort of before the fall for a moment before. Before the current administration really put its greasy pause over the whole situation. Was I wrong? Were we wrong to feel like things could get a lot better? Danielle, do you think? I mean, how much of the despondence is. It was felt like it was on the precipice of real change, like things were actually changing?
- [11:58]
G
Well, I mean, this is the pattern of history, right? With great progress comes backlash. And so all of this backlash when we study history comes from the fact that there is a very angry group of people still mad about President Obama's eight years and the progress that was made. And the hammer of the right coming back to try to undo all of the things that this black president did. And so all of the work that we need diverse books did, they're coming with the hammer to try to undo all of that work under the guise of we must protect the children. Right. But which always gets people's hackles up.
- [12:41]
C
Right?
- [12:42]
G
And I think we weren't delusional because we did answer the call. So many great books came out of that. So there was great progress. However, when people feel like they are not being centered, when the. And so when you have people in power that continue to activate the wheel of white supremacy, this is what happens as it turns. It's just, I think a textbook response that, you know, children are becoming too empathetic. Society is becoming More literate and more empathetic and more open. Oh, no, there isn't a place for me. We're taking down statues that represent hate. Oh, but that's our history. Right. And here comes the backlash. And everything trickles down.
- [13:26]
C
Yeah.
- [13:27]
G
So it's just trickling down into books. I thought we were better than this, though. But we're not.
- [13:30]
C
I mean, the trickling down metaphor, maybe even in two weeks, because we cover, and Kelly Jensen covers for us a book riot quite copiously. The long arm of the law and the unprecedented challenges in the courts of suits, of criminal times for librarians, of providing books at all, which before this, it was more sort of. It felt more like a cultural thing where this, you know, it was happening in quieter ways. It was not. This is so overt. I think that's one thing I continue to be stunned by, and that the chilling effect is not just chilling, it's criminalizing at the same time. Caroline, does that. Have you guys thought about. Does your program react at all? Do you do different things in this, in a different environment? Are you actually having active conversation? Like, do we need some sort of different playbook? Or is. Is it, you know, the only way out is through stiff upper lip or just going to keep on keeping on? This is the way. It's just harder now. Or how are you imagining the work you do and sort of the specific actions you want to take?
- [14:34]
B
Definitely. With book bans so sharply on the rise. And I really laud the work that you all are doing at Book Riot to shine a spotlight on this and providing data and great reporting on what's happening is so important. We launched our Book Save Lives initiative, which is one part advocacy and getting letters signed to various school boards and districts, but also working directly with the educators who are affected, providing them so that they can keep their shelves as inclusive as possible, providing them with resources, whatever they might need, to continue making their library and classrooms welcoming spaces and as diverse as possible. Just in talking to our grantees and also reading the many applications we've received for this grant, I know that there are so many teachers and librarians who write, recognize and understand how powerful it is to have diverse literature on their shelves, because these are the books that are getting their kids interested in reading and making them lifelong readers. But they are up against now a lot more administrative challenges. Quite a few of our grantees have asked to remain anonymous just because.
- [15:49]
C
No, they become a target for people that don't understand why they. They become a target for someone in their community on their school Board in their, you know, a parent or something like that, they become a target. Right. I mean, that's essentially what happens. Yeah.
- [16:04]
B
That happened to one of our grantees in Michigan where the two teachers who applied for and received the grant were vilified in their local press. It affected their familial relationships too. It caused one of our teachers so much distress. She considered an early retirement because of what was happening. Questions about her motivations, wondering why she's oh my goodness, getting these diverse books, books into the hands of her students. But these educators are so resilient and they are fighting back at local levels. But one thing they've told us is what we really need are people in our communities to stick out for us, to speak out, go to board meetings, say something, say, hey, this is not right. I want these books on our shelves. I think what was really incredible for them too was they had students in their district who decided to get together and say, like, please let us read these books. We are the ones who would benefit from this. We can see these books because they had been cataloged. But their school board came down and said, you cannot circulate these. So the students could literally walk through their school library, see the books that we had sent them ready to go, but they were not permitted to check them out. And having the students involved and having local parents and community folks speak out for them really made a huge difference. And ultimately that is what was able to get our grant fully processed in the books into the hands of kids. But it really took a toll on this very like tight knit small town community in Michigan. And it's happening everywhere. It's happening in blue states. I live in a purple county in Maryland and my own kids school district instated a committee, a review committee a few years ago to have different community members read these books that someone has challeng because they thought it was inappropriate in some way.
- [18:00]
C
Danielle one thing that's changed is the burden of proof over the last two years, six years of why kids should be allowed to read different kinds of books and all kinds of books has changed a little bit. So much of it is made as a negative case of it being harmful. I wonder if you could talk for a minute about why it can be so freeing, liberating, affirming for someone, for a kid, an adult even to read a book that centers acknowledges affirms the complexities, realities and joy of their own experience.
- [18:35]
G
I mean just even the fact that so many people don't realize this.
- [18:40]
C
Yeah.
- [18:41]
G
Makes me feel like, do I share the Same planet with other people because it is so important. It electrifies the imagination. When you're able to find yourself in a book, it means that you belong in imaginative spaces, you belong in narrative, you belong in the dreams of writers who are translating their imagination onto the page. It does wonders. And I see this all the time when I go and do writing workshops and I was a teacher for over a decade and a librarian and watching young people even try to write stories they would not write themselves. It didn't matter what they looked like, they would write blonde hair and blue eyed protagonists. And I thought, wow, this shows you the depth of the cultural programming that has happened where so many young people literally don't believe that they belong in the pages of a book, that they can be a hero, that they can be a main character, that they can be a villain, that they can be anything. Right? And so that means that we have failed to really build the next generation of readers and therefore writers and help them use their imaginations. And so it is definitely something that is life changing and profound. I think when you find a piece of yourself in literature, even in film and in movies, in any sort of media, that taps into, I think, the core thing that makes us human, which is storytelling. Every community, every tribe, every group, it's something we do to make sense of this weird planet and to understand its cosmology. So when you don't show up in those books, what does that, what does that say? Is that. What does that mean? And so it's, it's profoundly important and powerful. And so that's why I know it's a tool and an instrument of control and power to erase entire groups of people. And so these busy body book banners who want to make sure that certain groups don't get to have representation. I was like, oh, okay. This is not just about the books. This is about erasing actual human beings. Their stories, their voices, their experiences. They know the power of it. That's why we had anti literacy laws in America preventing black people to read again.
- [21:14]
C
We agree both sides of whatever this war clash of ideologies or worldviews of openness versus closeness. One thing both sides agree on is the power of this stuff. Elsewise they wouldn't be banning it. Right. Elsewise they wouldn't come for it because they realize in their souls, if not their brains, how activating powerful it can be and transformative of the larger world. And they don't want to live in that world. I think, I think it's kind of as simple as that. As you said, it's a retrenchment of, to an older retrograde way of seeing who, who is American and who's included in the stories. The importance of using your bodies and showing up that you mentioned just a moment ago, Caroline. It's interesting to hear that come from someone. Kelly's reporting that she's done most of it for us. We're a digital space. You all star as a hashtag. But I think that's one thing people have realized over time is taking online advocacy and awareness and showing up in conference rooms, showing up at ballot boxes, showing up at school board meetings and library fundraising drives. Is that where you're seeing much of the positive change happen? I'd like to hear some positive stories of individual books and writers too. But if there's one sort of simple thing is get out there in the real world with your real self and do some shit. Is it that simple?
- [22:40]
B
In some ways, yes. I know many of us feel very helpless and hopeless. I certainly feel that, you know, every week, especially as someone who loves staying up to date on the news and I, I am an NPR junkie. But it is hard to read to, to listen to what's going on in our country and not feel like, well, what can I do? I'm just one person out of over 300.
- [23:05]
C
Just one doom scroller out here.
- [23:08]
B
Yeah, you just keep doom scrolling. But yes, it can be as simple as knowing who is running for your local school board, being educated on what their platforms are, because that who is on your local school board really dictates so much of what curriculum getting taught, what books are being shelved. If there are book challenges going on, do you have allies on that school board who are the ones promoting the freedom to read and access to diverse literature? I know it was not something super huge on my radar when I first became a voter. You know, I was just researching the big names. Right. But that is so critical to what's going on in our own communities. And I do feel like right now where we can make a big impact is in our own little spheres of influence. So it could be researching those school board candidates and making an informed vote. It could be going door knocking for that candidate who is out there promoting, you know, diverse literature and there to support teachers and shelving diverse books. It could be running for school board yourself. I know it sounds scary, but we really need more people who understand what a critical moment we're living in and that they can make a difference, to step up and to be that voice on school boards. So I do think if book bans are something that some, that someone is really worried about and wants to make a change, this is where we can really make a difference.
- [24:44]
C
I'm going to screw up the quote and I apologize to the Internet. You can go Google it yourself, listener. But I think it's Teddy Roosevelt said something to the effect of sort of pound for pound, the biggest impact an individual citizen can make is getting involved in their school board. I mean, I know, you know, the big, the big names at your senate or the presidential campaigns, it's big, it falls where it feels important. But like most people don't know who's on their school board. Like getting 50 votes of people, you know, for a school board person can matter so much. It can matter so much depending on the size of wherever you live. So that's really important too.
- [25:17]
H
We all love a legendary comeback. And Degree Original Cool Rush is back and better than ever. Cool Rush isn't just a scent. It's a movement, a fan favorite that delivers bold, fresh vibes and all day sweat protection. Whether you have a man that spends hours in the gym, heads into the office early, or is just trying to stay fresh on a long day, Cool Rush has their back. Head to your local Walmart or Target and grab Degree Cool Rush, the fan favorite scent from the world's number one antiperspirant brand.
- [25:47]
C
I also want to ask you directly and then I have a couple. I have another question for Danielle in a second. But in terms of getting involved with, in supporting, we need diverse directly. What are ways people can interact if they're sitting on their phone, on their couch, wanting to do something and hear you guys and say that's something I want to be a part of. What can they do? What should they do? Where should they go?
- [26:08]
B
Sure. Well, we actually just reshared a form on our social media yesterday that is collecting data and stories on soft censorship in your community. So if that is something you are experiencing, you're witnessing that's happening at your school.
- [26:25]
C
Could you talk about what soft censorship is? I think, I assume, but maybe some people.
- [26:29]
B
Sure, yeah. Great question. So soft censorship is when a book is just not purchased in the first place because of fears that this book might cause someone in your community to.
- [26:43]
C
Challenge it by a school or library, not in your necessary.
- [26:46]
B
But yeah, absolutely. So it's this idea that many teachers and librarians are now very concerned about their livelihoods and their safety and they might stop buying, you know, books with queer protagonists or books that deal with topics like police brutality or racism, because they know their principal might call them out on it, or a parent might learn about it and try to get them fired or get them written up. So soft censorship cannot really be easily tracked, like a book ban, a formal book challenge. So that's something that's really concerning to.
- [27:24]
C
Me because we don't even know what we don't know.
- [27:27]
B
Yeah, we don't know what we don't know.
- [27:29]
E
It's.
- [27:29]
B
It's not formally recorded, although many times people are aware it's happening because it's a conversation you have with your school administration. They're saying, not those books, but there's nothing ever in writing. Or it's just a feeling a librarian gets where they're like, well, I'm really nervous about losing my job, so I'm just not going to buy this book by this trans author because I know it's gonna, you know, someone's.
- [27:58]
C
Yeah, I don't have. I don't. I just can't saddle. I don't want. I don't want to saddle up for it. Yeah, maybe.
- [28:04]
B
But we're trying to better understand what's going on and to have to create that record for it. So we know, where is this happening? How is it happening? Who is it happening to? You know, we ask questions like, are you a community member or are you a librarian? Are you a teacher? So we're just trying to gather information. So if that's something folks can help us with, that'd be great. The form is. You can access it through our social media. Honestly, just purchasing diverse books, requesting them at your library, reviewing them, supporting these authors are critical. Many diverse authors are seeing decreases in book sales for a variety of reasons. You know, it's not just. It's the book bans, of course, it's a soft censorship, but also it's inflation. It might be, you know, cuts to education funding. So we really. If we want more diverse stories, we really have to be shouting these stories from the rooftops. Because that is essentially what helps authors sell their future books, is a strong sales record with what's currently, you know, what they're currently selling. And, hey, it's almost giving season. If folks ever feel.
- [29:16]
C
I was going to say it's okay to say it's all right.
- [29:19]
B
You know, donating to WNDB is so always very appreciated and makes such a huge difference to a small nonprofit like us. So we hope folks keep us in mind, you know, when they're thinking about their end of your giving.
- [29:34]
C
Yeah, I'll put it in here. I'LL put a link in the shownotes bookright.com listen for anyone who wants to go find it over there. Danielle, I want to go back to the industry side for you because this is something I wonder about and think about. And I've had some conversations, you know, when I'm talking to publishers, usually on the publicity or advertising side. So I get that part of it. You tend to deal with them more on the editorial side. If we think of that 2014 Bookcon as a bright line, you know, all white people, I don't think we're going back to that world. I can't imagine a lineup of like that being announced in today's day and age. Though. Every day. I guess there's a little part of me that wonders where, where do you think change is going to come from? It's going to change.
- [30:14]
G
You said, where do I think change is going to?
- [30:16]
C
Yeah, where, where, where can it come from? Where can we find our way through this?
- [30:21]
G
Well, with courage, tough conversations. So what I'm seeing is that publishers are restricting their lists. So where there might not be an all white lineup for something like the EA bookcon, there will be fewer people on a a list or season.
- [30:40]
C
Yeah.
- [30:40]
G
And that's where we have to look to say, okay, if you went from publishing 25 books a year to 15 books a year now, who are those slots being allocated to? Is there a balance or are you avoiding certain kinds of authors, certain kinds of topics to write to like keep your head down, to not have your book hit the right wing machine and create controversy. And so I think we're going to see a lot of sanitizing of fiction, a lot of sanitizing of people's platforms, a lot of policing. Right. Even around issues related to Israel and Palestine, we're seeing a lot of censorship, a lot of Palestinians being systemically and systematically relegated and taken out of publishing. They weren't in publishing to begin with, but now even more so not giving the being given the opportunities because of the fear of the backlash and the emails and all of the stuff that happens when you're brave and you make sure that you stand by your values and say that everyone deserves to have a voice, whether you like it or not. So if a publishing company is publishing a memoir from someone in this administration, they should also be able to publish a memoir from someone who survived the Gazan genocide. Right. So both things need to be true. And so I think that the way that we get through this is by standing 10 toes down on our morals. What we say that we do. And publishers always say that they like to champion new voices, that they're looking for amazing content and all of those things, but they're not. The debut market is struggling right now. They're going to existing writers for books, which is great for existing writers, but that doesn't change the landscape to invite more diversity in. So I think it's about the people who are already in, like me and Caroline and other amazing writers need to push. We need to be the squeaky wheel and say to our publishers, who do you have on your list? Who are you excited about? Who are you launching? How can I help? How can I get the word out? How can I use my resources? How can I tie my, my ball? The work that I've done to lifting as I continue to climb in publishing to ensure that the table gets bigger because they're trying to make the table smaller. And so I think that community, like Caroline said too about getting involved, and you were talking about getting involved in your school board, school board elections, getting involved with your publisher as a writer saying, hey, we're in this together. Who else you got? How can I help? How can I be in conversation? How can I blurb? How can I shout out to help them stop being afraid? We have to rally around and be a big swell of positivity. But you got to get the books, you got to get the books out there. We've got to get louder about it.
- [33:45]
C
The other piece, and I don't know how related they are. I feel like they must be related somehow that I look at. Say we did an episode about a little while. Well, I'm already, somehow it's already almost November, so I'm feeling like we just did a 2024 look back. But it's probably been six months. Looking at the top 20, top 50 top 100 best selling books of 2024 and seeing how many of them are, you know, frankly, TikTok generated their TikTok phenomenons and how white those lists are. And it feels like there's a double whammy of the algorithm reinforcing some worldview for reasons we can probably imagine. And an administrative and structural, on one hand, maybe the soft censorship or whatever you might call it, the publishing industry in sort of the library and public markets and then the hammer of the Trump administration. Those two things feel related to me, like they're, they're going hand in hand because the things that get reified, that the algorithm wants to reify tend to revert to a sameness of a kind. And I think I will say this, and I wonder what you guys think about this. There's so. There's only so much an individual book reader, a lot of people listening to the show are not in the industry. There's just people out there in their book clubs buying books. I think people don't realize how subject they are to these larger forces, but how simple it is to combat them. All you need to do is spend an extra 30 seconds browsing, looking for a different voice or someone that's new to you. You can intervene on your own behalf. And I don't know if that's naive, Danielle, or. What do you think about that?
- [35:18]
G
Well, we know the algorithm is part of the wheel, right? Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, it's part of the wheel. So it's both driven by homophobia, racism, you know, all of those things. And it just reinforces anything that is put in from the top. I don't want to be Big Brother about it, but algorithms are created and manipulated by people in a room and so. And if TikTok is about to be bought and censored completely, then we're going to get even more of that kind of content. So we are just seeing the things that they sort of have pumped in to publishing. Yes, some TikTok phenomenons in their early days of BookTok were created by small content creators that went viral. But now with all of the big wig tech billionaires involved, we see massive social media manipulation and it trickles into books and which books get pushed. And there's no shade on those books. They're a lot of fun. Many of them are a good time. Right. But they also, like you said, Jeff, they reflect a very particular point of view. Centering, cisness, centering. Usually white women falling in love, even with Fae beings. You know what I mean? Like, it's just one type of narrative and we have to empower stakeholders. That's, that's also reviewers and book talkers and all of that to shout about the other books, to try to make those things happen. But we know that negativity wins on social media. So that's also our biggest challenge. It's easy to go to the dark because the dark gets clicks. Hate is, is easy to be solidified around. That's what I always say. Hate, that's easy to be in solidarity with. It's harder to create a positivity campaign and to ask people to go outside of their bubble and find a new voice. That's the hard part. So we need diverse books. Is Definitely trying to make it easy saying, here are some books that you might not have heard about. We've got you covered. Here are the lists. We're just pumping it out. Talk like, read this book, read this book, talk about this, talk about that. And we know that it's a marketing game as well. But we all have a part to play. I believe in curating a different kind of list for readers.
- [37:45]
C
Another question for you, if you would. Are there some particular books, authors, success stories to shout out?
- [37:50]
B
Oh, there are so many lovely stories.
- [37:53]
C
Terrific.
- [37:54]
B
We have a long standing mentorship program where we offer a year long mentorship. We basically partner an emerging writer or illustrator with someone established in the industry who helps critique their work and provides guidance and publishing advice. And one of those writers is someone named Amina Lukeman Dawson, who worked with author Kathy Appelt for a year on her middle grade historical novel called Freewater. And eventually she found an agent who sold her book to Hachette Book Group. And her editor, Alex Hightower is one of our internship grant recipients who received a grant to help her take on a publishing internship when she was in college. And she eventually became an editor. And so she acquired Amina's book and Freewater won the Newberry in 2023 as well as the CSK medal. And we just, we loved that full circle moment where it was like this WNDB family connection. And then what was really great too is we were able to donate copies of Freewater to teachers across the country. So it just felt very full circle and exactly what we wanted to do in 2014 when we were just a hashtag of being like this is the pipeline and here it all three communities came together in this one story. So it's something I love to highlight.
- [39:33]
C
To bring it all home, just to show how it all comes down. That book, Free Water was one of the selections for I live in Oregon and in Oregon there's something called Oregon Battle of the Books, which is sort of a trivia where different levels. There's 16 books for third through fifth, sixth through eighth and high school. My kids have both done it. As you might imagine. I'm coaching my daughter's OBOB team and one of the books of the 16 last year was Freewater. And so all these kids, so that they're available, they will get picked up. And now again, the people making that committee, I'm sure they had a conversation, they're really good about making an interesting inclusive list. But the book needed to be available even for them to include. So like it's just a whole thinking of it as an ecosystem, I think can be so helpful. It's like, like everyone has a part to play, but it also can unravel if conditions are bad. But that's a perfect example of something that you all gave a push cultivation. And it grew and it was available for other people to enjoy and experience in our classroom. That's a wonderful example. So I don't know what the right sunshine versus clouds message to give to folks. Right. I don't want to gloss over that things are really hard, but nor do I want to sweep under the rug in the name of acknowledging how difficult things is that progress can be made. And there are people out there doing the work day in and day out.
- [40:51]
G
Absolutely. And I think the word that you use that is a great takeaway is cultivation.
- [40:56]
C
Yeah.
- [40:56]
G
We have to cultivate what we want, what community we want to live in and how we want to be. And cultivating that means acknowledging the clouds, right? Not ignoring them. We need an umbrella. However, that doesn't mean we can't get busy and make a fire and get cozy and like, come together and recognize that, like, reading is a valuable thing. It's a good thing for us. It's a good thing for our young people. It's a good thing for adults. It helps keep our brains elastic and pliable and keeps us alive and well. So policing books is a bad idea. Friends, we've done this before. Why don't we learn as humans? It's like we want we've learned that drinking poison is bad. We're doing it again, thinking we're gonna get another result. I don't know what that result is, however, it's just a bad idea. And I just want everyone to realize that books are great. They're awesome. Leave the book worms like me alone and let the children read, please. And let the writers write. If you don't want to read it, it, don't read it. That's what I tell book banners when they come and bother me. I say, well, if you don't want to read it, don't read it. There's so much, so many other things you can do. So I think we cultivate, like you said, Jeff, our own communities, our own neighborhoods, our own cities, our school communities, our church, all. Anything that you're involved in. Cultivate. Cultivate voices, cultivate connection and get talking and make a book club, make a band book club. Buy books. Talk about them. Be annoying about books.
- [42:41]
C
Daniel Clayton Richmond thank you so much for joining me today.
- [42:45]
G
Really appreciate your time no, thank you.