Book Riot – The Podcast

Episode: Checking in with We Need Diverse Books
Host: Jeff O’Neal
Guests: Dhonielle Clayton (Chair, WNDB), Caroline Richmond (Executive Editor, WNDB)
Date: November 3, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Jeff O’Neal and the leadership of We Need Diverse Books (WNDB): Dhonielle Clayton (Chair) and Caroline Richmond (Executive Editor). The discussion centers on the current landscape of diversity in publishing, the rise in book bans and censorship, the ongoing fight for inclusivity, and actionable steps for supporting diverse voices and communities. The episode explores WNDB's origins, programs, and strategies for both coping with and combating escalating cultural and political challenges.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Mission of WNDB

• The Hashtag that Sparked a Movement
  • WNDB began in 2014 as a Twitter hashtag responding to a lack of diversity at BookCon, quickly turning viral and leading to the organization's founding.
  • Quote:

    "We actually started as a hashtag on Twitter back in 2014 ... [about] a diversity of voices. Where are they?" – Caroline Richmond (05:32)

  • The movement transformed from online activism to a formal 501(c)(3) nonprofit targeting systemic change in the publishing industry.

2. Three Pillars of Impact

WNDB works across the “reading pipeline”:

• Diverse Creators:
  • Mentorships, grants, and workshops to help writers and illustrators from underrepresented backgrounds get published.
• Publishing Industry:
  • Programs to diversify publishing staff through internships and professional development, especially for those facing traditional barriers to entry.
  • Quote:

    "We realized too, that if we wanted diverse books, we needed to help diversify the industry that creates them." – Caroline Richmond (07:23)

• Readers, Educators, and Librarians:
  • Grants and resources for schools and libraries, and direct distribution of diverse books to classrooms.

3. Landscape Shift: Progress and Backlash

• Early Progress:
  • Post-2014 saw tangible shifts in publishing, with more diverse books being acquired and published.
• Backslide and Book Banning:
  • A political “backlash” has set in recently, causing publishers to become risk-averse, cut DEI initiatives, and reduce acquisitions of diverse titles:
    • Quote:

      "In comes the dark orange cloud ... publishers like, why should I invest in a trans voice if they're going to get banned ... instead of being brave, they've turned into cowards." – Dhonielle Clayton (09:43)

  • This is described as a historical pattern of progress met with retrenchment:
    • Quote:

      "With great progress comes backlash... The hammer of the right coming back to try to undo all of the things that this Black president did." – Dhonielle Clayton (11:58)

4. The Chilling Effect: Censorship, Soft and Hard

• Overt Bans vs. Soft Censorship:
  • Book bans have escalated: educators and librarians are facing criminalization, not just cultural opposition.
• Soft Censorship Defined:
  • Books quietly excluded from purchase or circulation out of fear, not via official challenges.
    • Quote:

      “Soft censorship is when a book is just not purchased in the first place because of fears that this book might cause someone in your community to...challenge it.” – Caroline Richmond (26:29)

  • WNDB invited listeners to share stories via their data collection form.

5. Impact on Educators and Communities

• Personal Toll:
  • Teachers and librarians experience harassment and professional risk, even considering early retirement.
  • Quote:

    "That happened to one of our grantees in Michigan...It caused one of our teachers so much distress, she considered an early retirement." – Caroline Richmond (16:03)

• Community Advocacy:
  • The most effective resistance comes from local voices: parents, students, and community members attending board meetings and advocating for inclusive collections.
  • Student Voices Matter:
    • Students themselves rally to speak out, which can directly impact policy and book availability.

6. The Importance of Representation

• Readers' Affirmation:
  • Finding oneself in a story “electrifies the imagination,” validates existence, and encourages empathy.
  • Quote:

    "When you're able to find yourself in a book, it means that you belong." – Dhonielle Clayton (18:40)

  • Erasure via censorship is "not just about the books. This is about erasing actual human beings. Their stories, their voices, their experiences."

7. Tactics for Change: Get Involved Locally

• School Boards Matter:
  • A critical point: real impact can be made by participating in or voting for local school board members.
    • Quote:

      "It can be as simple as knowing who is running for your local school board ... because that who is on your local school board really dictates so much of what curriculum getting taught, what books are being shelved." – Caroline Richmond (23:07)

• Small Actions Matter:
  • Even purchasing and requesting diverse books at a local library has an outsize effect.

8. Facing Industry and Algorithmic Obstacles

• Risk Aversion in Publishing:
  • Post-backlash, publishing houses are reducing new, diverse acquisitions:
    • Quote:

      "Publishers are restricting their lists...there will be fewer people on a list or season." – Dhonielle Clayton (30:21)

  • Sanitization and self-censorship rise as fear of political or social backlash grows.
• Algorithm's Role:
  • TikTok and other social media algorithms reinforce sameness, favoring established or dominant narratives.
    • Quote:

      "We know the algorithm is part of the wheel ... it's both driven by homophobia, racism ... and it just reinforces anything that is put in from the top." – Dhonielle Clayton (35:17)

9. How Listeners Can Support WNDB

• Report Soft Censorship:
  • Fill out WNDB data collection forms to document under-the-radar censorship.
• Purchase, Request, and Review Books:
  • Boost sales and library circulation of diverse titles.
• Donate:
  • Financial donations are always welcome, especially as giving season approaches.
• Amplify Voices:
  • Use social and personal networks to promote lesser-known or challenged books.
• Quote:

  “[I]f folks ever feel...donating to WNDB is so always very appreciated and makes such a huge difference to a small nonprofit like us.” – Caroline Richmond (29:19)

10. Full Circle Success Stories

• Example: Amina Lukeman Dawson's "Freewater"
  • A mentee from the WNDB mentorship program became a Newbery and CSK Medal winner. The book’s editor was also a WNDB internship recipient.
    • Quote:

      “It just felt very full circle and exactly what we wanted to do in 2014 when we were just a hashtag...” – Caroline Richmond (39:32)

  • The book’s journey demonstrates the value and necessity of fostering an ecosystem of support.

11. Cultivation as a Philosophy

• Long-term Perspective:
  • Progress requires active, ongoing cultivation of communities, stories, and opportunities.
    • Quote:

      “We have to cultivate what we want, what community we want to live in and how we want to be. And cultivating that means acknowledging the clouds, right? Not ignoring them.” – Dhonielle Clayton (40:56)

• Encouragement:
  • Despite setbacks, every individual effort contributes to a broader positive shift. “Be annoying about books,” start book clubs, and keep reading.

Memorable Quotes

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 05:32 | Caroline Richmond | “We actually started as a hashtag on Twitter back in 2014 ... [about] a diversity of voices. Where are they?” | | 09:43 | Dhonielle Clayton | "In comes the dark orange cloud ... publishers like, why should I invest in a trans voice if they're going to get banned ... instead of being brave, they've turned into cowards." | | 11:58 | Dhonielle Clayton | "With great progress comes backlash... The hammer of the right coming back to try to undo all of the things that this Black president did." | | 18:40 | Dhonielle Clayton | "When you're able to find yourself in a book, it means that you belong." | | 26:29 | Caroline Richmond | “Soft censorship is when a book is just not purchased in the first place because of fears that this book might cause someone in your community to...challenge it.” | | 23:07 | Caroline Richmond | "It can be as simple as knowing who is running for your local school board ... because that who is on your local school board really dictates so much of what curriculum getting taught, what books are being shelved." | | 30:21 | Dhonielle Clayton | "Publishers are restricting their lists...there will be fewer people on a list or season." | | 35:17 | Dhonielle Clayton | "We know the algorithm is part of the wheel ... it's both driven by homophobia, racism ... and it just reinforces anything that is put in from the top." | | 39:32 | Caroline Richmond | “It just felt very full circle and exactly what we wanted to do in 2014 when we were just a hashtag...” | | 40:56 | Dhonielle Clayton | “We have to cultivate what we want, what community we want to live in and how we want to be. And cultivating that means acknowledging the clouds, right? Not ignoring them.” |

Timestamps for Key Segments

• WNDB Origins and Programs: 05:32–09:06
• Industry Shifts & Challenges: 09:06–13:26
• Book Banning & Community Advocacy: 13:26–18:00
• Power and Importance of Representation: 18:00–21:14
• Getting Involved Locally: 21:14–24:43
• Supporting WNDB & Soft Censorship: 26:08–29:33
• Algorithmic Challenges & Industry Future: 33:45–35:17
• Mentorship Success Stories: 37:44–39:32
• Final Words: Cultivation & Resilience: 40:50–42:41

Takeaways for Listeners

• Systemic change requires engagement at every level: creators, industry, and readers.
• Book banning is both overt and subtle; vigilance, advocacy, and reporting are needed.
• Representation in literature is foundational for empathy, identity, and community.
• Individual actions (supporting authors, local advocacy, donating, promoting diverse stories) add up to meaningful change.
• Progress is cyclical: anticipate and meet backlash with courage, community, and cultivation of diversity.

Links and resources:

• We Need Diverse Books
• WNDB Social Media for soft censorship reporting form
• Donate to support WNDB (especially during the end-of-year giving season)
• Find and support your local school board candidates!

Closing Note:
Through both hardship and hope, We Need Diverse Books stands at the intersection of storytelling, advocacy, and community. Every reader, parent, educator, and book lover plays a role in cultivating the literary landscape of tomorrow. As Dhonielle Clayton said, "Be annoying about books." Advocate, read, and never stop making noise for stories that matter.