DNF Shelves Coming to Goodreads and The War For Your Ears Continues

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Book Riot – The Podcast
Episode: DNF Shelves Coming to Goodreads and The War For Your Ears Continues
Hosts: Jeff O’Neill & Rebecca Schinsky
Date: February 23, 2026

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Overview

This lively episode features Jeff and Rebecca discussing recent tech and industry news in the book world, particularly the escalating "format wars" between Audible and Spotify and a long-awaited Goodreads feature: a DNF ("Did Not Finish") shelf. The hosts break down the implications of new audiobook sync functionalities, what the expansion of audiobooks means for readers and publishers, and what the new “official” DNF shelf signals both for data gathering and for readers. They close with frontlist book recommendations and an exploration of broader shifts in reading culture and book discovery.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Audiobook & Print/Ebook Sync: The Format War Intensifies (06:48–27:35)

• Spotify’s ‘Page Match’ vs. Audible’s ‘Read and Listen’
  • Spotify launches “Page Match” for seamless switching between audio and text (print/ebook), designed for readers who bounce between formats.
  • Audible releases “Read and Listen,” an immersion reading feature that highlights text in the ebook as the audio plays, aiming to increase focus, comprehension, and accessibility (notably for neurodiverse listeners).
  • Both features aim to break down barriers between reading experiences but serve slightly different purposes.

“Both of them are trying to collapse, combine or otherwise de-wall different forms of reading, right? All things converge into one. I don’t know how many people actually do one or either, but the technology is there and available.” – Jeff (08:46)

• Market Impact & Accessibility
  • These features aren’t likely to transform the reading habits of the average reader—most people rarely switch formats.
  • Audible’s immersion feature is read as a defensive response to Spotify’s move, especially as Spotify includes many audiobooks for “free” with its Premium membership, making audiobooks more accessible and potentially cheaper than Audible’s ecosystem, which requires separate purchases of ebooks and audiobooks.

“The average reader… is not going to do this… Very few people move between formats. Very, very, very few in the American population.” – Rebecca (14:18)

• Business & Ecosystem Maneuvers
  • Audible’s lack of bundling discounts means this feature could be costly to the user.
  • Amazon, with control over Audible, Kindle, and print, could theoretically offer true format bundling but doesn’t—likely due to licensing and internal siloes.
  • The conversation pivots to Bookshop.org partnering with Spotify, and speculation about future audiobook offerings, given the independent bookstores’ existing relationship with Libro.fm.

“I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the end games here is that Bookshop [dot] org acquires Libro.fm. I have no sense of the relative sales. It would make a ton of sense.” – Jeff (22:04)

• “Half-baked Ideas” Segment: What’s Next?
  • Jeff floats (an intentionally “half-baked”) idea about Spotify integrating Libby to be the all-in-one audio platform; Rebecca points out the business and user complexities.

2. The “Video-fication” of Audio Content: Apple & Others (30:47–34:48)

• Apple announces adding video to Apple Books/audiobooks—hosts riff on whether “video audiobooks” could become a thing.
• Discussion about the mystique of watching podcasts and the barriers to producing video versions of audiobooks.

3. Goodreads Finally Adds a DNF (“Did Not Finish”) Shelf (35:04–41:06)

• Goodreads users will soon have an official DNF shelf, auto-converting user-created shelves.
• Speculation on why this is being implemented now, after 20 years of “roll-your-own” workarounds.
• Data implications: with one unified DNF shelf, Goodreads could actually track what people don’t finish, offering rich (albeit potentially author-unfriendly) data:

“This will be an interesting opportunity for data collection… Goodreads could theoretically do a ‘most DNF’d books’ of the month or the century. I’d love to see it, but I don’t think they’re bold enough.” – Rebecca (37:55)

• Ethics of reviewing/rating DNFs:
  • Jeff and Rebecca propose that users who DNF a book shouldn’t be able to rate it, only tag it as "DNF" and perhaps comment.

4. The Evolving Landscape of Digital Publishing and Book Discovery (41:06–50:52)

• Bindery Books & The Bookfluencer Boom

  • Bindery partners with influencers to select and market titles, but there’s no substantial data yet to prove its success.
  • BookTok/Bookstagram “fatigue” and possible shift away from phone-centric/algorithm-driven book discovery discussed.

• Macro Trends: Phone and Social Media Fatigue

  • Anecdotes and observations about readers (and people in general) actively seeking to reduce device and social media time.
  • Comparison to past fads (TV, radio) and speculation that our phone obsession may not be “the new normal” forever.

“Everyone I know is spending less time on their phone, on social media… maybe we’re just learning to use these things as tools, which they are, and make them work for us.” – Rebecca (48:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Book World Politics
  “I got one, maybe two emails about ‘why do you have to make the show political?’ And for that I say: Welcome to the show. That’s what we do.” – Jeff (03:27)

• The Press-Release Cynicism
  “Both of these exist primarily to have a cool sounding press release.” – Jeff (14:08)
  “I totally agree.” – Rebecca

• On Watching Podcasts “It is mystifying to me that people want to watch podcasts.” – Rebecca (31:29)

• On Phone & Platform Fatigue “No one we know is trying to spend more time on their phone except for 14 year olds who don’t know any better.” – Jeff (47:45)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------------- |------------ | | Episode main theme/web housekeeping | 01:04–03:27 | | Format war (Spotify vs. Audible), audiobook/ebook sync | 06:48–27:35 | | Video-fication (Apple, audiobooks as video, watching podcasts) | 30:47–34:48 | | Goodreads DNF shelf announcement | 35:04–41:06 | | Bindery books, BookTok fatigue & changing book discovery | 41:06–50:52 | | Reflections on social media & technology fatigue | 46:27–50:52 | | Recent reading: Frontlist foyer | 51:51–67:28 |

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Frontlist Foyer: Recent Book Recommendations (53:21–67:28)

1. Kin by Tayari Jones

   • Epic, ambitious novel following two Black women friends from Louisiana through divergent life journeys in the Jim Crow South.
   • “This will be one of my books of the year. All the awards for her.” – Rebecca (55:53)

2. Light and Thread by Han Kang

   • Nobel lecture and meditative nonfiction essays.
   • “It was like a Mike Tyson boxing match. It was quick and it hit you real hard, and then it was out.” – Jeff (58:58)

3. A Hymn to Life by Giselle Péllico

   • Shattering memoir by a woman who publicly exposed her husband’s abuse, sparking legal and cultural waves in France.
   • “If you can read something like this, I felt like I owe it to her to bear witness. That’s not to say everyone should. I’m finding it remarkable and brave.” – Rebecca (63:07)

4. Across the Universe by Natan Last

   • Hybrid memoir/cultural history of the crossword puzzle world—fun and full of trivia (“cruciverbalist” is the term for a crossword enthusiast).
   • Audio format “not ideal,” better in print/ebook for the visuals. – Jeff (64:51)

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Conclusion

The episode blends humor, industry insights, and passionate readerly advocacy. Jeff and Rebecca illuminate why format innovations from tech giants may matter more to marketers than to most readers, celebrate a long overdue feature from Goodreads, and speculate on the changing landscape of book discovery as social media and phone fatigue rise. Their recommendations offer a mix of profound new releases for both fiction and non-fiction lovers.

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Find More

• Show notes & links: Book Riot Listen
• Upcoming episodes: Deep-dive on “The Warmth of Other Suns” with Laura McGrath
• Send feedback: podcast at bookriot dot com

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(Adverts, sponsor messages, intros/outros omitted as per instructions.)

Transcript

[Jeff O'Neill]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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love story John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette watch now on FX, Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Foreign

[Jeff O'Neill]

this is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's a light show today. Rebecca. I I'm so fascinated to see the format wars heating up on the tech side that might be. Maybe we can talk about the platforms deciding to let us sync things to other things and why they're doing it and why now. And there's not a whole lot on the news front this week, but if you're finding things you do want to read and write about, find us over at the Book Riot newsletter. I did a roundup yesterday of recent interesting book releases. That Patreon episode is going up later today. I forgot to edit it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, book deals.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, book deals. Pardon me. That's going up the Patreon Letter today, but I picked a couple things that were included in that episode, but a couple of things that weren't because they weren't new deals or recent announcements that came out. You can find us over on Zero to. Well read. Srifa joined us to talk about what was described to us in a call we had just a little while ago as a perfect work of narrative nonfiction, which of course it is. That is Isabel Wilkerson's the Warmth of Other Suns. Had a really good time talking about that with Sharifa. Just a standalone, singular, monumental work that it's hard to have enough superlatives about. And also you can't recommend anything else off of it, but you can hear us talk about that Rebecca.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. And then stick around on Wednesday this week, our friend Laura McGrath, who is an English professor, a literary historian and data scientist at Temple University. Many of you have heard her on previous episodes. She is coming back to talk to us about new research that investigates how readers identities are connected to the ways that we pick books. We just recorded that interview with her. It was super fun and always fascinating. We've heard from y' all that you like hearing her on here and we like her too. So she's gonna be here a little bit more regularly. But that was a really fun conversation and all of you who have nerd in your soul are going to find a lot to enjoy there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And let me just say, if you're listening to this right now, you do. You may not admit that to yourself, but you. If you're listening to you do, you just do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's stuff you want to hear. She. She always comes with really fascinating research. We never know what it's going to be ahead of time. And then she guides us through how would we respond to these research questionnaires? What does that say? How similar or different are we from typical readers? And what can we in the industry take from it? So whether you're listening to this as a, you know, civil reader who loves books or you're a person in the industry, there's a lot in that conversation for you. So look for that on Wednesday.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I did get some feedback about my difficult, correct, and painful decision to have Hillbilly Elegy be number one in my own personal ranking. I think pretty much everyone is also reluctantly agreeing that that makes sense. I don't think they liked it. I think they were glad they didn't have to make the list. But I didn't get anyone saying, you're nuts. I got one, maybe two emails about why do you have to make the show political? And for that I say, welcome to the show. That's what we do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Welcome to Book Riot.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, you know, I'm not sure what this. Actually, I do know what to say. That's the deal. Not too worried about.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You must be new here.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's okay if you don't like the show, but we're gonna do that from time to time. All right, so we get.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, I mean, that's like low on the end of political.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, that's what I was. I was like, boy, that was. You heard me. Really trying to do something there. I guess we'll take our first break and then come back and talk about some news.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

well, why do you have to be political about it, right? Rebecca? Anyway, so two announcements this week, one hot on the heels of the other. Hard not to imagine that one is the response to the other. Rebecca, let's do big Picture first before we talk about the specifics here. So Spotify rolled out page match to sync print and audio reading. A pretty cool technology where if you are the kind of person, and I think this is a smaller group of people than people might think, shoot us email podcast riot.com if you're the kind of person that bounces between where you can then sync between what you're reading in your eyes and what you're listening to in your ears.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. And they use Spotify uses sync here differently than Audible does, which we're going to talk about next. But they're using sync at more as a seamless pick up where you left off experience that. And Sharifah talked about doing this with the warmth of other suns, that you might read a chapter in print and then switch to audio for the next couple chapters and then you want to go back to where you were in print or in an ebook. And that can be complicated. Like if you're not in the at a chapter end when you put down the audiobook, how do you know where to go in the ebook to pick up? So this page match feature allows you to do that. What audible has rolled out is called Read and listen and they are promoting this as being about immersion reading, that you read the ebook version while listening to the audiobook and on your screen the text that's being read out loud is highlighted for you. So this can promote focus and comprehension. They're talking about research that has looked at how if folks engage with both audio and visual information at the same time, it does increase focus and comprehension. This can also be an accessibility tool for ADHD or folks with neuro other forms of neurodivergence and attentional disorders. So these are similar features that Spotify and Audible have rolled out, but they're not the same feature, which I think is interesting and important to point out.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, thanks for that distinction. I guess I was thinking about them together because both of them are trying to collapse, combine or otherwise de wall different forms of reading. Right. All things converge into one. I'm not sure. I don't know how Many people actually do one or either that the technology is there and available. If it's a very small percentage, that's great. Make it available. I have been thinking about this recently because of how much and I don't know if I did a full safe or a public knowledge is okay debrief of my New York trip. But one thing I kept hearing about is the print and audio on the marketing and publicity and profit and loss side collapsing on itself. Not collapsing, not in that way, but like merging like the walls between publicity and marketing for audio and marketing, publicity for the print or ebook, that stuff all kind of going away. And it's interesting to see on the user experience side something similar happening where it is less of a physical barrier to move between or have things exist at the same time. I don't know if it means anything, Rebecca, but I find this interesting and maybe it's because I had some availability bias and having conversations.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, it's hard to tell if this is a pattern to be recognized or just a coincidence of these two things coming out at the same time. And I think casual and civilian listeners would be interested to know that in many publishing houses the audiobook version of a book is managed and publicized differently than the print and ebook editions are sometimes by different departments. And in some cases the audiobook is produced by a completely different company. And then there are publishers where it's all for one. Like the entire marketing and publicity campaign in all formats is managed by one central place. But that changes between publishers and sometimes a publisher goes from one of those methods to the others. No one really seems there's not a unified way of handling this. And I think while audiobooks have been so ascendant over the last couple couple years and really in a phase of rapid growth, publishers have been watching it to sort of try to figure out and we don't know yet if last year like last year's slowdown was real. It was only I think 2% year over year growth in audiobooks.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We don't know what that represents. Like is that the beginning of a real consistent slowdown or was that a one year kind of thing? We'll see. But I think this is all like publishers and the media ecosystem trying to figure it out. Like Spotify, I do think is trying to serve an additional component of its audience. They've partnered with Bookshop for this. And so like you, let's say you're listening to the audiobook as part of Spotify Premium and then you also have a print or an ebook copy, you can stop in the audiobook and it will tell you where to go in the print book or the ebook. Similarly, if you start in print or ebook, you can take a picture of that page or that screen and put it into page match and then it will sync you to the correct place in the audiobook. Really interesting stuff. It benefits Spotify, but not entirely like, because you can just abandon the audiobook and go back to your print copy. The Audible example, I think is a move. I'm reading the Audible example as a defensive move against these. The ways that Spotify and other platforms have. Have caved or have carved some territory in to what Audible had previously just been. The giant that owned like, because for the. For the Audible one, in order to listen to the audiobook and read the ebook at the same time on your screen and get that synced feature, you have to own both editions in your library. You have to have the ebook in your Kindle library and the audiobook in your Audible library. And now it's possible that you might have gotten one or both of those editions for free as part of like a Kindle Unlimited promo or things that are available to Audible plus members. But like, this is an expensive proposition, potentially. I was looking at My current listen is a Hymn to Life by Giselle Pellico, and I'm listening to it on Spotify Premium. So it's not costing me anything beyond my regular Spotify membership that I listen to. But the audiobook for that is listed at I think $13 on audible for members, 18 and change for non members. Or if I bought one month of their basic membership, it would be 8.99. So at I pay $8.99 to get that audiobook and then the ebook edition in Kindle is 13.99. So you're talking about $23 for this one book where the Spotify version to be able to bounce back and forth. I think that's really like Spotify saying, hey, if you're reading something in print and ebook and you want to come try the audiobook and we, we have a lot of audiobooks available at no extra cost to you in Spotify Premium. Like, both options serve to deepen a user's connection to that one ecosystem. But the Spotify option theoretically can be free to you if you already have a membership. And the Audible option is going to cost you something, unless you're already in the practice of buying things in two formats.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Can I give you my cynical take?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Please.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Both of these exist primarily to have a cool Sounding press release.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I totally agree.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Sounds cool. Never going to use either of these myself. Never.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I intend to try the page match thing on Spotify just to see is it smooth or clunky. But the average reader reading 10 or 12 books a year, that's a heavy reader. The average reader is reading like 1 to 2 is not going to do this. Very few people move between formats. Very like very, very, very few in the American population because of Spotify.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You do need to have the print book and then burn some of your premium credits or something like the cost is a little more debundled I guess where the Audible one is right there. The Audible one I'm wondering about. And again this might be available by. Since I was in New York and they have these Harry Potter audiobook ads all over the subway system still. They were there in January. We saw them there in the Harry Potter Audible Full casting is the header to this press release. I think some of it is marketing for that series which they've invested a lot in and it's an Audible exclusive, a full cast recording. We don't spend a lot of time talking about that franchise because the author is doing some stuff and continues to be a real pain in the butt of well, good hearted people everywhere. But I think they are investing in that as the go to audio experience for one of the great franchises of our time. And a lot of young readers I could imagine maybe parents would want to pony up for this because they can listen to this book and watch the words and maybe they think of it as some sort of early reading kind of educational thing. I can see that as a play people might make.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I hadn't thought about that, but I think that's a. I think that's a really good guess. And this is Audible has or not Audible but Amazon in their ecosystem has had this functionality on Kindle already. It's called Whisper Sync. So now they're just bringing it to the Audible app which is definitely going to be heavy with promotion for the Harry Potter audiobooks. And maybe you don't want to put a Kindle app on your kid's iPad but you'll put an Audible app with their Harry Potter audiobook and then they can read on screen. Yeah, I think that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And then super fans right there. Super fans of that franchise that just might want to have that. You might want to try it out and see how it goes with. And with Audible too. I don't know how they're with their org chart and how they do their books over there. I would guess that Audible and kindle have separate PNLs. So this might be confusing for them to figure out like who gets credit for a purchase and what the licensing rights are. They may have different licensing rights for an E book and an auto title. They could be different publishers. There are all kinds of messy things that go on here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You have to have both the press releases and Publishers Weekly did good coverage of this point out that there's not currently a bundling option available for Amazon. There's no way to buy the ebook and the audiobook together and get some kind of discount. If you want this experience, you're going to have to buy both.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We talked about bundling a billion years ago because that's something you and I, we've sort of given up the ship on this ever actually coming into the harbor. But Amazon is one that could do it right? They know you bought the print book and there's like the print book and there's like this all in one price that for $40 I get the. I'm just trying to think. I get the audiobook, the ebook and the physical book of Brawler by Lauren Groff, which my next physical books purchase comes out next week. They could do that, but they don't want to or they don't know the hands are talking to each other and the licensing is too much. But they could do it. They're the one where all of the information would exist in one place.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it was in the conversation as ebooks were rising and when publishers were exploring, you know, maybe we can do an all you can eat ebook subscription, kind of like Netflix. We had Oyster Scribd tried that. That business model gets broken by power readers very quickly. But there was some conversation and I think there were even some publishers who tried it of a. Like if you buy. Yes, yes. If you buy the print edition and you send in actual proof of purchase like a receipt from the bookstore, we will send a code to download the ebook for free. But that's not sustainable at scale. It might be now with more like automated technology or if publishers were. That was also during a moment where publishers were really making an effort to get people to buy their print books from the publishers own websites, which is a futile endeavor from now until eternity. But if you bought it through HarperCollins or through Simon and Schuster, maybe, you know, that would ease the road to getting the ebook edition as well. But I also think that's an infinitesimally small percentage percentage of readers that, that want to move between any two formats of a book. Like we have use cases for it because we need to read stuff and take notes and refer to it on podcasts and like maybe some book club members or some students want to do that, but most readers don't.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The other tea leaf thing here I'm saying and the caveat to about to say is I do know Andy Hunter a little bit. He's been on the show. He or First Edition, met him several times and I so I know, but I know nothing about strategy. But the Tea Lee thing I'm seeing here is Bookshop has done extraordinarily well. We've talked about in the past and I can certainly see why they would be interested in having Spotify be another place that people could buy books. I think the messaging about don't buy from the big bag tech guys is a little muddy when you're partnering with Spotify, who is the Amazon of musicians. Right. Essentially at this point. So that's a little confusing to me. But the other thing I'm seeing here is this suggests to me that Bookshop getting to the audiobook game is further off than I thought. I thought it maybe would be imminent. Just strategy. I've heard nothing, I'm giving away nothing here, but I don't know that you really want to be mobbing up with Spotify and messaging to your users. You can go try this on Spotify and use your audiobook credits on Spotify if you're going to try to take market share from the extant audiobook industry. Because I would imagine that the Spotify user might be easier to poach than the Audible user just because they're sort of more passive, right? So like, I don't know. I think that's an interest. I don't know. Sometimes a tactic and strategy don't necessarily align. But if the longer term strategy for Bookshop, which is what I would do if I were them, which they shouldn't do because they've done better than I ever would with that business, would be to try to offer an all in one solution to people who want to buy books. And that could be in digital, that could be audio and that could be in print. They've got the digital part, they've got the physical part, the part they don't have as audio, which is growing and a huge part of the industry. And I'm not sure I would do this if I was like I'm one or two years away from launching my own audiobook program.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's also complicated by the fact that Bookshop is built on relationships with independent bookstores. And an independent bookstore solution for audiobooks already exists in the form of them.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yep.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So maybe this is. There are all kinds of tea leaves that we could try to read around that. I think it's great exposure for Bookshop for a platform as big as Spotify to link up with them rather than to say like, any, you know, any book wherever, or to put a bunch of different buttons in. Like, if Spotify just wanted to make money on it, they would just put Amazon affiliate links in there. So. And who knows, like, maybe there was money exchanging hands to. To get that placement. There's all kinds of possibilities, but. But it is interesting and we don't know anything else about it to be able to guess what the strategy there is for Bookshop. But if they did want to expand into all in One and have audiobooks as well, they would be competing with Libro. And there's some. I have to imagine there's politician there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's all politics.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. With the American Booksellers association, for sure.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I mean, I think that the aba, the American Booksellers Association, I think choice is good for everyone. My take would be more places people could buy their audiobooks and support their local bookshops, the better. That's what I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the end games here is that Bookshop acquires Libro fm. I have no sense of the relative sales.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It would make sense.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It would make a. It'd make a ton of sense. I think both of them would like to be in the other person's business and at some point there could be enough. Enough brand equity in both of them for one to take over the other. I don't. I'm not sure on that side. I do know, though, that if I were. I'm going to ask you this question, Rebecca. If you were Spotify and Audible and you're in this war with each other, what's your next move? Is there a move out there that you would do that you think would actually turn the heads of relatively serious readers?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, I think that Spotify has done it with having so many audiobooks be included for premium members, that in a typical month, if I want to listen to an audiobook, and I'm as serious a reader as it gets, I can listen to that audiobook without having to buy it anywhere. Spotify is my listening platform of choice. I'm aware of the problems with it. Don't send me emails. No platform is pure. But I think that they've done it. If I were trying to turn More heads. I think you probably need some kind of bigger awareness campaign that reaches readers where they are rather than finds people on Spotify and says, hey, we also have books. But that I think easier said than done.

[Jeff O'Neill]

If someone now, again, this could be cutting to nose despite your face. But if I'm really trying to win the ear war where people turn to me as my go to audio experience in Spotify might be more inclined to do this in audible because I'm imagining audiobook sales really for premium users, a cost rather than a profit center to them because, you know, premium users get it for free for now. Essentially those 15 hours, if I were Spotify, I would be on the. I would be on the phone with Libby tomorrow saying let's find out some way that people can look for books in Libby or find them and listen to them in integrated into our app. Because what Spotify wants you to do is pay 15.99 or whatever it is a month to get your audio to be your podcast player to do video stuff. I think if I were them, I would use my weakness as a strength here, which is audiobook costs are a cost to me. Why don't I give people the audiobooks even more for free? You can't see air quotes because this is an audio show. Rebecca. I don't know if you know that

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I can see them.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What do you think of that idea?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, even more for free. You'd have to be a power user then to want more than one audio. You can get one audiobook a month for $50.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Don't you think Libby uses our power users though? Like you want that whole ecosystem over there. Again, I'm not saying it's the best idea in the world.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't know what it gets Spotify because Libby users are already getting audiobooks for free through Libby.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, maybe it's a feature of Spotify Premium that you can sync your Libby account or something like that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Some kind of syncing would be cool. But you'd be. It would be like you're not to run out of free audiobooks on Libby. It might be. Are you tired of waiting for. For this hold to come in?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think I just think it's kind of like. It's kind of like Google where they just want you to go to Google to find your search stuff. I think Spotify, they just want you to go to Spotify to find your audio stuff. They want your podcast there once you're music.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So Libby users are going to go to Spotify to search for audiobooks.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Know that Spotify? Well, some might, right? Because, like, let me put it to you this way.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm not following what you're proposing. Spotify.

[Jeff O'Neill]

In Spotify, there's like a Libby tab, right? And you put in your library card and it connects to your local library lending system, and you can just use it as a front end for your Libby experience through your local library. So that I'm just going to Spotify when I want to listen to stuff, which is, I think what Spotify wants me to do. When I think of listening to shit I hit. I go to Spotify to find it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think then Spotify would be eating into. The thing that they're hoping you do is run through your 15 hours of free audiobook listening and then pony up for more hours.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Ooh, I don't think that's right, but go ahead, finish that thought.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And so if every time you. Well, and then, I mean, they're also hoping you'll stick around and listen to podcasts and music and everything else in their platform. But if every time you search for an audiobook on Spotify, you have the option to go access it on Libby instead of Spotify, I don't know how

[Jeff O'Neill]

that serves Spotify well here, what Spotify hopes you do. Spotify hopes you stick around listening to Premium because you can listen to audiobooks there, but you never listen to your hours. So because they've got to pay. They've got to pay the publisher for those hours. So whether or not I listen to my audiobook credits through Spotify in a given month, they're incentivized. Like, it's cool that I have it. They want people to stick around. It's like a gym membership, right?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

They want people to think they're going to use it more than they actually use it. So, Libby, I can give for free that audiobook, read it listening experience to that listener without having to go pay HarperCollins for the thing they just wanted to listen to.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay, I think I hear where you're going. I think this is half baked.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Are you saying I didn't, within 45 seconds, launch a major new initiative between two of the behemoths in our space that was. Seems like a high bar, Rebecca. I think I'm glad you think so. Well, of me thought it was possible I could fully bake that. Like a convection oven of idealab?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Listen, I've been on the other end of this microphone long enough to know that sometimes you do roll in a fully baked. What do you think about this?

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, I'm putting together the oven. I'm inventing gluten like in baking soda. After coming off, I think it is

[Rebecca Schinsky]

smart to identify Libby as another of the big players and there are only so many of them. So if you're a platform like Spotify, you're looking around for big players. But Spotify, I do think want. They want people to use the platform and they want people to spend their money. And you're more likely to spend money if you're not perpetually reminded of the freeness of the library.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I just think, I think they more care about people sticking around for 1599amonth no matter what. So if they give it to you for not conversely, that raises a similar thought to me. Would Libby be wise to include a podcast player in there? It's rss. They could get everything in there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think so.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Then, then they're on the hook for all the content. But they kind of are anyway for all the library books. I'm not sure.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean like an RSS distribution is really simple and they might be able to hook things into like, you know, convert, like find the books mentioned in this podcast on Libby.

[Jeff O'Neill]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

It's like, oh my God, I'm gonna die someday. I didn't even know. So this is front of mind for us because Apple just announced that it's going to add video to its elements too. What is. Is there a world in which video audiobooks are a thing? Oh, no one's ever thought of this before, as far as I can tell. Why not? Well, riddle me this. Why not?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, like, where I just watch Jim Dale narrate the.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's just on. Yes, it's just on.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that's a world that's very possible if you could get the narrators to agree to it. Because, I mean, I will say it is mystifying to me that people want to watch podcasts.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's a. I am right in there with that boat of curiosity and mystification with you. That doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Totally mystifying. Are you actually, like, send us emails? I'm genuinely curious. Like, are you if you're listening or watching a podcast, if you're consuming a podcast on Spotify on the video option or on YouTube or even Netflix now, are you actually watching the screen or is it still serving the, like, background noise function that podcasts often serve for people? And if it's background noise, then why the video option? Like, I know why Netflix is acquiring podcasts because that's cheaper than producing talk shows.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But yes, I think, though, maybe the burden of proof is on the Wrong side, because we're thinking of his podcast into video rather than a lot of mourning. Like news and sports and talk shows are video podcasts that we just think of as video because that's what they were originally.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Or they were TV shows and then they became podcasts and now they're both. Yeah. I mean, I don't see any reason why if a narrator, like, if people will. If people will watch podcasts, they would certainly watch a narrator sit in a box and read a book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think the production of that is not quite the same, of people sort of live talking to mics like, you know, we do on the YouTube for zero. Well read or something like. And the production quality for other bigger shows is much different, but it tends to be extemporaneous where you can make a mistake and move on. Whereas Nick Offerman's reading his new books by the fireside with whiskey, which is maybe like the closest thing to like a yule log version of an audiobook I could think of. He. He can't make a mistake. Or can he? Like, what was.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, he can't edit it. Like, you get jump cuts in video podcasts.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like, I think the burden on the. The auditor would be intense, though. I think that's a harder thing than I would imagine to be. Be able to perform it where there's not so many cuts that actually breaks up the.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, yeah, I don't know. Like, I. I've never been in the booth on an audiobook production. I have no idea like how life to tape is it generally. Or how often are you doing multiple takes of the same thing. It probably varies from book to book and narrator to narrator. But like, if people will watch podcasts, people would watch audiobooks.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right? There's probably audiobook narrators on YouTube right now. And I just don't spend any time when people are going to email.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, someone's going to make a million dollars monetizing some audiobook YouTube Ch. Where they just read stuff from Project Gutenberg, I think.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I can't think of a pun. Rebecca. I'm so sorry.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is that a first?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I don't know because I think there's some version of like B list, maybe even a list celebrities. You know how they do audiobooks for Spotify? Like, I think Rosamund pike did Pride and Prejudice for Spotify. What if they just have. They take those same public domain works and do their own YouTube readings of it them and monetize it that way. Cut out the middleman.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You. I mean, you could do that. Yeah, they Totally could.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Or some of like, I mean, some audiobook narrators have their own followings. And there's some audiobook narrators I really like and I can never remember the name after. And then I hear them and I was like, oh, this guy. It's kind of like Richard Kind. I can never remember his name. Like, oh, I love Richard Kind. And I have to remember his name all over again.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think Richard Kind likes it that you can't remember his name.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Except I just did, which disproves my point. But anyway, shoot us an email if there's anything remotely related to any of that. That welcome to an edition of Half Baked Ideas Around Audio and Reading Experiences.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

If you like this boy, will you like our Patreon.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I don't know. Doubt. Going from things that probably shouldn't exist to things that already should have existed, Goodreads is finally introducing a DNF shelf. What do you think of that segue?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What do you think of that segue? Yeah. Okay, so I have to tell you that I was today years old when I learned that the DNF shelves are not, not like an official Goodreads.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean it seems like it should exist. It's the mandala effect of like tech platform functionality.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I mean, I'm not a Goodreads user, so that's part of why. But DNF is language that I first heard coming out of Goodreads and out of early book blogging that, oh, I put it, I didn't finish it, I put it on my DNF shelf. But apparently that's just been a roll your own on Goodreads for the last 20 years. And I wish now that we could know like who was the first person to create a DNF shelf on Goodreads and how many DN DNF shelves are there or variations of it. But Goodreads sent an email to users this week as we're recording, saying that coming soon in the spring, which it seems that everyone online is reading these tea leaves, as for March 1, there will be an official Goodreads DNF shelf for each user. So just like you have your currently reading and your to read your TBR and there are like instructions there. So if you've created your own shelf that's called DNF or did not finish or unfinished or something like that, there's a handful of them that they've identified, they're going to automatically convert those to the official new DNF shelf. If you've created a tag or like a Non exclusive custom shelf. There are some other details. And then if you want to keep your own setup, you can rename your shelf to anything. And that has to be done before February 28th. So it sounds like the flip is going to come March 1st. I cannot believe that this wasn't already a thing. Which leads me to what made them decide to make it a thing now.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like, who poke someone at Goodreads and woke them up and said, you guys can still innovate. You know, you can still do stuff.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

20 years and like bajillions of users later, they finally were like, maybe we should make that a thing. It's also indicative of how little innovation is happening at Goodreads right now or for the last many years that the big news from Goodreads is they're making

[Jeff O'Neill]

a DNF shelf I with a lot of tech platform things. Often it's a question of trade offs and sometimes things don't exist that you feel like they should for reasons you can't fathom. Right. This is something we've encountered ourselves in various things. I can't really come up with a reason. People can already review Bomb and sort of Troll and one star and whatever. Like, I don't think there's gonna be any more or less potent than that could be. I guess I'm more interested in, yeah, why now? But then why not before? Like, is it that would be useful? Or they maybe they think it's gonna piss off authors. That was the first thing I thought I was thinking from the other side.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, maybe it will be an interesting opportunity for data collection.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That was my first thought. We gotta get Laura on this. Like, come look at the DMs shelves on Goodreads and see what we can find.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right? Because when they were disparate and named all kinds of different things, it would have been not impossible, but much more challenging for Goodreads to get that data. But now that they'll be unified, Goodreads could theoretically do a like most DNF'd books of the month. Most DNF'd books of the century. Like, I would love to see it, but I don't think they're. I like, I will be pleasantly surprised by Goodreads boldness if they do that. Precisely like it would be interesting, but precisely because authors would not like it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Publish, not like it. So there's really sort of two outcomes, right? Let's say they did that. Would it map neatly basically onto the most read books? Like, it's just, you know, the things that people. The things that are most read things most people try them with things most try both are read and stopped. Or is it meaningfully different like as a ratio of attempts like the DNF rating? You know, that would be a fascinating ratio to see.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It would be like, I mean we just recorded a zero to well read episode about 1984 which has 5 million Goodreads ratings. How many people have DNF'd 1984? Or like Wuthering Heights? I bet like actually this is what I want is some sort of like when a book is trending in just like the bookternet sphere. I would love to see the trajectory of it got added to a bunch of to read shelves and then it got DNF'd like. And I'm, I mean particularly thinking about Wuthering Heights right now because I think a lot of people who liked that movie have made their way to buy the book and are going to be very surprised.

[Jeff O'Neill]

They are going to stop it quickly.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. Surprised and disappointed by what they find if the thing they're looking for is an experience similar to the movie. But it would be fascinating to know like last month this many million people added this to their TBRs and then a certain percentage of them moved it to their dnf.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I have a thought and I haven't read the full press release and I think a lot of this isn't done, but I have a. If I were doing this, I would have this. If you label something dnf, you do not get to star rate it. Just, that's, that's your rating. You just stop.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I agree.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You can write a little prose thing about why, but you can't one star it. You can five star it. That's enough. What do you think of that idea?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I like that. I think, I mean we are from the school of do your homework work. And I, I think if you don't finish a book, it's, it's perfectly valid not to finish books and I advise people to put them down all the time. But if you don't finish a book, you don't get to review the book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You don't get to review it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No. You don't get to rate it. You don't get to impact that book's future. Your DNF is its own vote and that's how you're contributing to the social cloud around that title is by putting it on a DNF shelf.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's right. I think it would be useful that people see that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, I also think then that Goodreads should Gate like you should not be able to rate and review stuff that is still on your to read shelf. Like you can lie to it and tell it that you finished a book and then you can rate. Like you, you know, Goodreads isn't going to stop you from lying to them, but you should at least have to

[Jeff O'Neill]

make a little friction. Yeah, yeah. You have to at least keep your tags in order.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I read this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Misrepresent your reading experience, right? Speaking of misrepresenting reading experiences, binary books. We talked about this a couple years ago when it came out, which they put they are a publisher in quotation marks. Hard to say what they are. That pub that partners with influencers to publish books and then built in publicity and marketing through these influencers and creators that have their own influential channels. The Los Angeles Times. This is a piece by Malia Mendez staff right over there. That's a name I don't know, but I'm following her now. If you're going to write about binary books, this is someone I need to know what else you're going to do into the future because this is a fairly deep cut and I think we don't know if this is working yet or not. We do know that it's not yet profitable, which for a startup is unusual for the first couple of years. They've landed a couple of titles on the New York Times bestseller list. We know that that could or could not mean something.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on what your definition of working is. Like, is this going to replace mainstream publishing? Probably not. But is it a vehicle for some authors who weren't successful in mainstream publishing or for whatever reason didn't get picked up there? Like it's an additional avenue that some authors will have access to if they get selected by these influencers. You know, I'd be surprised if the influencers platform all by itself can drive a book to the bestseller list. But if you're getting picked up by the algorithm and getting recommended by other people, like maybe my spidey sense is that the success stories are exceptions to the rule rather than the rule themselves.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But in reading through this piece, I did not see a big quote from an author saying, boy oh boy did we do great.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And no data.

[Jeff O'Neill]

None.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The headline is the publisher enlists book fluencers to choose its titles. Is it working? And the there's, there's. The piece doesn't answer the question, which is I think is fine, as you said, because this is still relatively new. But there's no information about total Copies sold or you know, anything related to. I wouldn't expect them to talk about their P and L, but like copy sold or any kind of money made or like a big quote from an author about how they're so glad that they did this instead of going with a mainstream publisher. Honestly, this kind of looks to me like somebody at Bindery Bindery maybe has a good publicist who pitched some coverage.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I think even a null result for data is an interesting null result because if there was great data, they would be screaming it from the rooftops.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. Yeah. As we know from the launch of things like when Scribd first came out, they were sending press releases every couple months about how many users they had. And so I'm glad that this has been successful to whatever degree for folks. One particular title called this is Not a Test ended up on the kids Indie Next list. But like how does that translate into sales? Indies are what, 4 to 6% of the market?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I think it's an interesting idea. And at one if one of these books ever enters our sphere of orbit just through non reading, here's something that Bindery made. Let's talk about Bindery. I would be very interested at one point I think, oh, this was a Bindery title that we talk about as getting adaptation or gets picked up. I think they're focusing a lot on genre and YA pretty hardcore. And some romance stuff I don't typically read. So I may not be the best canary to see if there's anything coming out of this particular coal mine. But here we are. I'm not sure. I've reading a few Death of Book Talk things recently. I think we're just gonna do this for a while. Death the Booktop until. Until we know for sure. Until it's dead. I need to see its body hanging from a gibbet before I declare Booktok dead.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There's like Death of Booktok and then there's just how are things changing because TikTok has changed ownership? Or Alyssa Morris who writes a great substack called Romance in the Phone I

[Jeff O'Neill]

saw that we're talking about the same

[Rebecca Schinsky]

piece specifically about Booktok is just talking about there's a lot of fatigue and what she was putting her finger on was like romantasy fatigue, series fatigue and trope fatigue, which those are the things that have been driving Booktok. But it seems that the content is not going away. It's just shifting to conversations about standalones and less tropefied genres. So we'll see. I do think phone fatigue and Social media fatigue are macro.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think you're right to say macro stuff.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Quite real is important. I get a newsletter called Embedded that was talking this week about their sense that maybe this whole phone obsession of the last decade is not the new normal forever, but a period that we will all look back on is like when we were obsessed with our shiny new toys and then became disenchanted. That feels really possible to me. Like everyone I know is spending less, is not just trying to, but is spending less time on their phone, on social media. We're also far enough out of the pandemic now that we have access to like really being back out in the world and people are remembering that it feels good to be back out in the world and not just in the worlds of our phones that were the only thing available to us for a while while.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, it's funny you mentioned that, because I had this realization today of something I hadn't realized. I know that sounds impossible and almost was, but I was getting, I'm getting ready to drive. I have a road trip out and back tomorrow for work and I was like, kind of between audiobooks, I'm like, I was out of podcasts. I'm not, I'm trying to do fewer podcasts. Not, not because it's. I don't like podcasts, but like I don't need to listen to that much NBA or NFL stuff. Like I try to do more, more audiobooks and I didn't find anything that was really floating my boat and I was like looking through my podcast player and I've noticed I still subscribe to a couple of tech related podcasts that I listened to. I think probably my entree into podcasts was through tech podcast and I haven't listened to either of those shows in multiple years and didn't even really realize it. Like I didn't make a decision. And I used to follow tech news pretty closely, but I couldn't tell you when the new MacBook Pro is coming out or the iPhone or whatever, whatever. Like, I just sort of stopped caring. And I think I have gotten older and I care. I've got other things going on my life for sure. But if I'm the phone industry, I wonder if I'm an interesting data point Rebecca is all I'm trying to say. Am I, am I, am I a speck of sand in a larger sandstorm here? Because no one we know is trying to spend more time on their phone except for 14 year olds who don't know any better.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But yeah, I mean I mean, and even they say it doesn't feel good. They're just there because that's where all their friends are. I think you might be an interesting speck of sand here. And just, I mean, anecdotally, like, the problem that people have with, maybe this notebook will change my life. You used to be that way with laptops. Like, maybe if I get the new MacBook, it will actually be the machine I want to work on.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Maybe if the new phone camera's good enough, I'll care about my family.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Maybe.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Whoa. Sorry. Got dark.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And I think it's. I think maybe we're just learning to use these things as tools, which they are, and make them work for us rather than being enamored of them because they're. They're not shiny and new. I don't know. Like, is this how people felt when color television first came out? Is it how people felt when the radio first came out? Like, I was reminded.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm sure there were all kinds of moral panics about how much.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, Like, Clive Thompson did such a nice job of documenting this and so good they can't ignore you, which is like 10 years old. And I would love an Update for the TikTok years on that. But I'm talking about, like, the. The radio got invented and people thought that that was going to ruin families, that we would never speak anymore. And the same thing with the telephone and the TV and then with phones. And you can't say that the fact that none of those have ruined culture means that the Internet won't. But people do seem to be getting. Getting there. I think there is real fatigue and a real desire for, like, for genuine sources of connection. And to whatever degree, both, like, influencer culture changes or decreases and what that will impact publishing on. But just how we're all consuming information, I think is going to retract a little or contract a little bit.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I do wonder. Like, and so the online. You know, my theory of the case for the social video fication of a lot of book discovery is that it was word of mouth on steroids, and that could still be part of the trend. But could it be also the case that it itself is subject to its own algorithm? Right. Like, if the air starts coming out of it, does it have a cascading effect? Because you and I have been around long enough to remember all kinds of cultural fads that seemed like they were going to be around forever, then just sort of weren't all of a sudden, like, they just. They just aren't. And Sometimes it can take a couple of decades, but cultural things tend not to stick around forever, and even technological or platform things tend not to stick around forever or at least to have sort of the fever of pitch dominance. And maybe a little bit is that the phone and the device world is getting eaten by the software code space of LLMs and generative AI. And so it's like not even the most innovative thing in its own garbage space. That's terrible for humanity. So I don't know, there could be a couple things going on to the same time now. So again, I will really need to see some kind of real data about hashtag use or whatever people are doing to keep track of what's going on at Booktop or Bookstagram. But at some point I do expect that to deflate. I think like a lot of things will still be around and people want to talk about books and they'll use whatever formats available to them. But the king doesn't usually get to sit on the throne forever and something else will come along in one way or the other.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

See [e-mail] it's not just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your space, your way. Whether you? D want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. [e-mail], the only thing we treat better than windows is you visit blinds.com now for up to 50% off with minimum purchase plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply. Speaking of other things that are coming along, let's talk about recent reading. REBECCA Frontless foyer is brought to you by throwing thriftbooks. You can buy good old fashioned print books, new and used over there. So if you're trying to get rid of your phone or do more with print, Thriftbooks.com is a great place to go. Every purchase gets you closer to a free book through their reading rewards program. Free shipping on books over orders over $15. And sometimes you're going to be able to pack together three or four books. Gonna get used books four or five bucks. You're looking to build out your backlist or shelves or catch up on a of series series. Thriftbooks.com a wonderful place to get your books and movies and music and games because people also do it in physical media. REBECCA what they sponsored for us in this show and this year is our frontless foyer which we talked about our new and recent reading. We talked this a little bit. You're gonna hear us talk about more in stranger detail about some recent reading that we've done. But why don't you tell me about Kin by Terry Jones, which is number one on your list here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Man, Tayari Jones, Like I was mad when you got this. In our draft for our seasonal draft releases, we're gonna fight over it when we do the fantasy league and we'll have to fight with Laura and Sharifah for it. There will be four of us. I think it's gonna be a fight. This is gonna be one of the books of the year. It is wonderful, set in Louisiana in the Jim Crow era. It's about two young black women, about 17, Vernice and Annie. They call each other their cradle friends. They've been friends since they were babies. They're both motherless. One's mother died when she was young. The other's mother ran away when she was very, very young. And one was raised by a grandma, one was raised by an aunt. And now that they are graduating high school, it's time to launch into the world. One of them is going to Spelman and the other is going off to Memphis office. She's running off with her boyfriend and a few friends in search of her mother. And their lives take really divergent paths from there. One of them discovers her identity as a queer person. But this is the Jim Crow south at a pretty, you know, conservative institution. And the pressure is on to meet a man and marry him and enter, you know, a polite society, like the upper crust of black society. And the other one is sort of struggling to make ends meet and having her life really defined by the absence of her mother and the desire to find her and to get some answers. And they. You know, they go apart, and they come back together. And they go apart, and they come back together, and they write letters to each other. We see them over many years of their lives and friendships. This was a fascinating read on the heels of the Warmth of Other Suns, I bet.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think about that. Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Having the richness of that context, like, really made it an even deeper experience. But Tayari Jones has just created this, like, fully enveloping world with these characters, these women. There's so much warmth here. Also a lot of sharpness. And this was the funniest that I remember Tayari Jones being. She lets the characters, like, bounce off of each other, and you really see their affection for each other and that ability that best friends have to call each other out to see each other's flaws. I just loved. I loved everything about it. This is gonna. This will be one of my books of the year. I mean, all the awards for her. This is also notably. I looked. This is published by Knopf, and she has previously been with Algonquin.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I noticed that as well.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And there is something to a Tayari Jones. Like, she's already had the breakout moment. American Marriage was huge. But moving to a publisher like Knopf with really serious literary bonafides, and this feels to me like just a continued upward trajectory for her. And American Marriage was a really big book. I think this one could be even bigger. I do expect we'll see it get picked for a book club. She's been honored by Oprah in the past, and Oprah likes to repeat, so that would be great visibility for her. But just. It's. It's phenomenal. I really loved it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm so excited to hear that. Yeah. Does feel a little bit like the James personal Everett moment. Right. Of going into. Was that Knoff or Double Day? I think that was a Double Day title. But Knoff, Double Day are part of the same group.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So, you know, feels has some structure. So let's go back and forth, and I'll do my. I finished this today. This was a surprise finish to me today because I queued up Light and Thread by Han Kang, which is her first foray into published nonfiction. It includes her Nobel lecture and other. A couple other things. And it just ended and I didn't realize it was only an hour and 52 minutes long. Oh, so it's a shorty.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm excited to hear about it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

How was it? So it was really interesting. I thought her Nobel lecture was very cool. I realized I have no relationship to Nobel Prize speeches for the literary awards. I feel like this is something I should know about. Are there like notable achievements? Are there collections of these? I should know all of these, Rebecca. Why don't I know all of these backwards and forwards?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I've only gone back to them when we've been covering a Nobel winner girl.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Remember we took a look at that I think for and Morrisons.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So anyway.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Really interesting. Do you recommend it as an audio experience?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I thought it was a very useful.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

As an ebook.

[Jeff O'Neill]

She does not narrate it but it's. It's capably narrated by somebody else. The second bit is about her writing do not part and a little bit of memoir. But it's again it's not very long. The Nobel Prize speech is only about 20 minutes which leaves only like an hour and a half of this other. And again it's hard to know an audio what the actual breakup was was. But I found it to be quite beautiful and moving and quite dark. I'll say this, Rebecca. I think it's hard to be Hong Kong. I do not think she enjoys her daily existence a whole lot. And she talks about that a little bit. And when you read we do not part of the vegetarian you're like that might be someone who. The days can seem a little bleak. You know I write it down. I wrote down one of the sub chapter sub heads for one of the chapters which is a meditation on pain which is you kind of know where you're going beginning for that. But ultimately she sees her writing project as a restorative one. It can be quite difficult and on some days it's the only thing that gets her out of bed. At least in this telling. It was harder. It was boy, it was like. It was like a Mike Tyson boxing match. It was quick and it hit you real hard and then it was out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean that's kind of what I want from Hong Kong, I guess.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I guess I to want. I like a short book and so it feels a little hypocritical for me to say boy, I wish a little bit more. But I was enjoying felt like I don't. It's a strange book.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Light hardcover.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah it's like a short story. Not even a novella maybe kind of very Unusual for nonfiction. I'm certainly glad to read it. It made me want to hear more from her. But maybe a shorter dose of this is what they were thinking. I would be fascinated to hear more about the editorial decisions about, about how to publish this, what to include, what not to include. Is this okay to do? I think some of the other Nobel lectures have been published as standalone, so maybe they're not padding it out, but adding some other things. There. An unusual document. I'm glad I listened to it, but a super unusual document.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm curious about the publication of it right now because the vegetarian's English translation will be 10 years old later this year. And I, I think the closer the

[Jeff O'Neill]

Nobel, you, you better. The closer the Nobel, you're better. I see what you're saying, but yeah,

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I just think there's going to be some stuff around the vegetarian, but we'll see. We'll see.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Maybe, maybe you could be right. So that's, that's my first. Why don't you go to your second? Another fun, another fun, light hearted read here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I can keep us in the serious zone. I'm listening to. I'm not finished with it yet, but I wanted to talk about it today. A Hymn to Life by Giselle Pellico. She, of course, is the French woman who was in the news over the last several years when, when it was discovered that her husband had been drugging and raping her and inviting other men into their home to rape her while she was unconscious. She forewent the option of a closed courtroom in order to make this public. Like she could have maintained her privacy. And she chose to have her identity revealed so that she could force the conversation in French society and in the media and really force accountability onto these men. All of them were found guilty. Guilty. And this is her memoir about that experience and also about her 50 years of marriage to this man and their family life together. This is an incredible thing for a person to do.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I can't believe, I mean, there's so many. But what a brave, daring thing for.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it's an incredible thing for a person to do.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What's it like? What's the, what's the reading experience like? Yeah, I mean, you know, is it a biography? Like, how does she structure it? Like, I have so many questions.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It moves back and forth between the present of the discovery that this has happened and then what follows from it and then back into the earliest days of her childhood and her husband's childhood. And they met when they were quite young and then their 50 years of marriage. And as she's doing this, she's constructing sort of picking up breadcrumbs that she missed throughout their lives that might have been clues that something like this was lurking in him. Things that she even says, like, did I have a. I mean, of course, no one suspects that their partner is doing this level of monstrous things.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, how could you. It's like, new under the sun to some degree.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. But she said she has moments of, like, did some part of me suspect that something was not. Not on board, you know, or on the level with him? And what were maybe the red flags of it? It's just really remarkable. I wasn't sure that I could do or that I wanted to do it, but I listened to Lulu Navarro Garcia's interview with her for the New York Times, and also real. That was really incredible. And I was like, let you know what? First of all, I feel like if you can listen to something like this or if you can read something like this, I felt like I owe it to her, like, some kind of responsibility to bear witness. That's not to say that everyone should. There are so many reasons that a reading experience like this might be impossible for a person. So please hear me. I don't think everyone needs to go read or listen to it, but I'm finding it, I think, really just remarkable and very brave. Embracing the level of courage and the level of selflessness to tell this story and to know that in doing it, she's making it possible for other women to tell their stories and that she is opening up avenues for conversations that people never thought that they could have in their families to ask questions that they were always afraid to ask. It's prompted a conversation about changing consent laws in France. Like the. The ripple effect of this is just incalculable, and we're only a few years out from it. But I think it's very possible that her name becomes known in history for quite a long time. As someone who came forward in a way that changed what was available to women, I'm grateful for it. I'm really grateful that this book exists is maybe the best way to put it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That sounds unbelievable in, like, 17 different.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it's really harrowing. I think if you've been looking at it, I would encourage you to try it. It's. It's remarkable.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That might go in the top 10 toughest listens of all time. Just, like, something to tackle.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I thought the toughest one I was going to encounter was. I can't remember the name of the book right now Union Lee's book about her two of her kids committing suicide within two years. This makes the year of Magical thinking sound like the teacup ride at Disneyland. That sounds so tough. I'm going to really zag. There's no transition here that does justice to Giselle Picoult's Bravery across the Universe by Natan Lost which is a memoir in cultural history of the crossword puzzle.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I've seen this going around. This looks like fun.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Delightful. I learned I annoyed my family with all kinds of tidbits. I will often won here as sort of please aside Jeff Chanery apparently crossword puzzle enthusiasts refer to themselves as cruciferbilists. I enjoy to no end.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Amazing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'll say this about the audio experience. Couple things last has a really interesting life in crossword puzzles. Like even to the fact of like interning for Will Schwartz, which if you don't know who Will Shorts is probably as influential in any single field of human endeavor in his field of human endeavor as anyone been and that infield of never happens to be crossword puzzles. So last knows of of what they speak a cultural history, an actual history of the crossword puzzle and a memoir. It's a lot to juggle and I'm not quite sure it's done. Per. I don't know what I want. Do I want more of a memoir or do I have more of a cultural history of the crossword? Or maybe this is the best version where I'm not going to read two titles. But I felt a tension between wanting to know more about this person's own experience and just here's cool stuff about crosswords and how it came to be. So I don't know. I will also say a book about crosswords may not be ideal in audio format.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Hadn't occurred to me, but I can see that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it didn't really occur to me either. I will do the occasional crossword, but I'm by no means an enthusiast. I learned a lot too. Its importance to the history of newspapers is maybe as as one of the most interesting things it sort of came up with when someone was trying to feel column inches. The original ones apparently didn't have the grid. You had to like draw the grid yourself.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh wow.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Presses couldn't do it. So there's all. There's all kinds of that stuff. If you I will say this without reservation which is if you have someone in your life that likes crossword puzzles and they're all interested in books, this is an absolute.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm putting that on my list. I'm a daily New York Times crossword doer.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, you should. I think you'll find all sorts of stuff that will be fascinating for you. So I would suggest if you are genre bi curious, I may select for print or ebook. There's a lot of stuff that I found impenetrable and I think would be just a lot more fun with your eyes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is one of those. See the document attached to this audiobook,

[Jeff O'Neill]

which, as I said before, I don't think they happen. No one's ever checked the PDF attached. I don't even know where to go. I don't know what that is even like. So anyway, across the Universe first by Natan Last, an interesting frontless foyer for us.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, a lot of variety here today.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Variety here. All right, you can find us@book riot.com Listen, that's where the show notes shall be. Also zero to well read. We've got Warmth of Other Suns coming up right now and we've got some bangers coming up right after and over the next couple weeks over there. Join us over on the Patreon where you can find the deals. Deals. Deals episode is going up later tonight or early tomorrow morning. And yeah, Rebecca's out for the next new show. Laura McGrath's coming on next week. And then it's March and it books in the spring and the year's a quarter of the way over. Rebecca. Oh my God.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Really facing the passage of time this year, I gotta tell you, don't like it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Don't like it anyway. All right, thanks, Rebecca. We'll talk to you soon.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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