E. Lockhart on the WE WERE LIARS Adaptation

Summary

Book Riot - The Podcast: E. Lockhart on the WE WERE LIARS Adaptation

Release Date: June 17, 2025

In this special episode of Book Riot - The Podcast, hosts Jeff O’Neal and Rebecca Shinsky delve deep into the world of E. Lockhart, focusing on her acclaimed novel We Were Liars and its recent adaptation into a television series on Amazon Prime. The episode features an in-depth conversation with E. Lockhart herself, providing listeners with exclusive insights into the book’s enduring popularity, its resurgence via social media, and the intricate process of adapting a beloved novel for the screen.

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Introduction to E. Lockhart and We Were Liars

The episode begins with an introduction to E. Lockhart, highlighting her extensive bibliography and the significant impact of We Were Liars. Lockhart’s career spans various genres within young adult (YA) literature, with notable works such as Ruby Oliver, Fly on the Wall, and the middle-grade series Upside Down Magic. However, it is We Were Liars that stands out as a breakthrough, captivating readers with its psychological depth and compelling narrative.

Notable Quote:

“We Were Liars was a pivot for me. I had been writing contemporary young adult comedy... and I was ready to try something new, to write a thriller instead of a comedy.” ([09:09])

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The Success and Resurgence of We Were Liars

Originally published in 2014, We Were Liars quickly became a bestseller, debuting on the New York Times bestseller list in its first week. Lockhart expresses her astonishment at the book’s immediate success, attributing part of it to strategic shelving in bookstores. Six years post-publication, the novel experienced a remarkable resurgence, largely fueled by the BookTok community on TikTok.

Notable Quotes:

“We Were Liars debuted on the New York Times bestseller list in its first week... that was very surprising to me.” ([09:09])

“A prequel, Family of Liars, hit shelves in May 2022, and a sequel, We Fell Apart, will release in November of this year.” ([07:07])

Lockhart was initially unaware of the BookTok phenomenon’s impact. It wasn’t until she received a TikTok video from her child featuring a fan deeply moved by the book that she realized the platform’s role in reigniting the novel’s popularity.

Notable Quote:

“There were a lot of them, and I was incredibly lucky.” ([13:19])

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Creating the Prequel: Family of Liars

The success of We Were Liars led Lockhart to publish a prequel, Family of Liars, in 2021. Contrary to commercial motivations, Lockhart was driven by a genuine desire to reward and engage her dedicated readership. Inspired by a conversation with fellow YA novelist Gayle Forman, Lockhart developed a narrative that explores the backstories of the Sinclair family’s matriarchs, thereby enriching the universe established in We Were Liars.

Notable Quote:

“I had an idea that I would write a story about the moms in We Were Liars... uncover family secrets about the Sinclair family.” ([15:35])

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Adapting We Were Liars for Television

The heart of the episode centers on the adaptation of We Were Liars into an eight-episode series for Amazon Prime, set to debut on June 18, 2025. Lockhart discusses the journey of adapting her novel, highlighting the transition from a first-person narrative to a visual medium. She emphasizes the collaborative efforts with showrunners Julie Pleck and Karina Adley, who were instrumental in expanding the story beyond the protagonist’s perspective.

Notable Quotes:

“Julie Pleck was the showrunner and architect of the Vampire Diaries... they had been interested in We Were Liars previously.” ([21:59])

“The show fleshes out the novel in a lot of ways because the novel is in first person.” ([24:16])

Lockhart had a hands-on role in the adaptation process, contributing to the finale and being actively involved in location scouting, casting, and post-production feedback. Her involvement ensured that the essence of the book was preserved while allowing the series to explore new dimensions of the characters and setting.

Notable Quote:

“I was on set for 10 weeks, working mostly as a writer on set... some of those notes were incorporated in the adaptation.” ([25:24])

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Visual and Narrative Enhancements in the Adaptation

Lockhart expresses her delight with the series’ visual representation, noting the stunning cinematography and the expansion of secondary characters. The adaptation offers a richer exploration of characters like Johnny, Mirren, Gat, and the Sinclair women, providing fans with a more comprehensive understanding of their motivations and dynamics.

Notable Quote:

“Everyone is so good looking... it was just kind of a fun, delicious, you know, eye candy.” ([28:55])

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Appeal to Diverse Audiences

Addressing the crossover appeal of We Were Liars, Lockhart discusses how the story resonates with both teen and adult audiences. The layered narratives and intergenerational storytelling ensure that readers and viewers find multiple entry points to engage with the material.

Notable Quote:

“I love to read young adults. So I've always thought of it as, you know, about and for teenagers and beyond.” ([30:40])

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The Enduring Popularity of Psychological Thrillers

Lockhart shares her perspective on the lasting appeal of psychological thrillers in the YA genre. She attributes their enduring popularity to the universal fascination with the human mind and its complexities, making these stories both engaging and relatable.

Notable Quote:

“The human mind and the tricks it can play upon us is something that's universal.” ([32:38])

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Book Recommendations and Future Works

In the closing segment, Lockhart recommends further psychological thrillers and offers suggestions for readers seeking similar experiences to We Were Liars. She also highlights her other works, encouraging listeners to explore her catalog for a diverse range of emotions and themes.

Notable Quotes:

“My Sister the Serial Killer by Ouija Braithwaite... about siblings and loyalty and family secrets.” ([34:17])

“Again is a story of... healing, about reconnecting after family trauma and grief.” ([37:08])

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Conclusion

This episode of Book Riot - The Podcast provides a comprehensive exploration of E. Lockhart’s We Were Liars, offering listeners valuable insights into its creation, sustained popularity, and its transformation into a television series. Lockhart’s candid reflections and thoughtful recommendations make this episode a must-listen for fans of the novel and enthusiasts of psychological thrillers alike.

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Stay Connected:

For fans eager to dive deeper into the world of We Were Liars and its adaptation, follow the series on Prime Video and visit E. Lockhart’s official website. Don’t forget to engage with the community on BookTok to stay updated on the latest discussions and fan theories surrounding the series.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

Hey y' all. A little special extra episode for you in the feed this week. It's been more than a decade since We Were Liars was E. Lockhart's sensational YA novel that just took the Internet by storm. Many of you remember. The new adaptation debuts this Wednesday, June 18, and in honor of that, my colleague Kelly Jensen spoke with E. Lockhart over on the Heyya podcast feed. So we're including that interview for you here today. Hope you'll enjoy it and let us know if you like the adaptation.

[Emily Lockhart]

Today. I am excited and honored to bring you a conversation with the one and only E. As in Emily Lockhart. You may know her from her early years in ya, writing about Ruby Oliver or Frankie Landau Banks. Maybe you know her from her book Fly on the Wall or Dramarama. Perhaps you know her from Genuine Fraud or Again Again or even Whistle Big time. Fans of children's literature outside the world of YA may know her too, from the Toys Go out picture book series or the middle grade series Upside Down Magic. But I'm going to guess I'm going to make a bet that you may know her best from her best selling mega hit We Were Liars. The book was a smash upon its publication in 2014 and was among the early forerunners in the rise of psychological thrillers in ya. The book continued to be a popular read among teens and adults alike over the years. But the rise in booktok led to We Were Liars hitting the New York Times Book Bestseller list again in the summer of 2020. The title has remained a popular one on social media, and specifically BookTok. Since 2020, though, the We Were Liars world has only continued to grow. A prequel, Family of Liars, hit shelves in May 2022, and a sequel, We Fell Apart, will release in November of this year. Fans of the book of E. Lockhart of YA or booktok likely know that's not all. We Were Liars was adapted into a series for Amazon prime, and it debuts on June 18. I can tell you that it sucked me in immediately and has all the elements of teen dramas you might remember from the heydays of, say, the CW or mtv, but that's all I can say right now. Today I am talking with the creative force behind the book about its enduring popularity, seeing a book through the adaptation process and more. But before we get to our interview, a brief word from our sponsor.

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[Emily Lockhart]

Thank you so much for joining me, Emily, and I'm really, really excited to talk with you today. I want to start with what is probably the easiest question and also maybe the hardest question, which is can you start by telling listeners a little bit about We Were Liars and I'm I be really interested to hear your snappiest, catchiest hook for the book that you've got in your pocket.

Okay. It's a private island off the coast of Massachusetts and a family spends every summer there. We're looking at the teenagers in that family and every summer Kate and Sinclair Eastman, the heiress to the family fortune, hangs out with her two favorite cousins, Johnny and Mirren, and they are joined by an outsider to the family Gat Patil. So this family is old money, white democrats Very entitled, very privileged. Gatt is a middle class kiddo. He's from New York. He's kind of intellectual. He's on fire, and he's of Indian heritage. So when they're 15, Cades and Gat fall in love. Beautiful love story, love story, love story. Then one day she wakes up on the side of the beach at night in her underwear. She seems to have been swimming by herself. Why? Who knows? At night? Why? Who knows? In her underwear? Why? Who knows? She's hit her head, she has some kind of traumatic brain injury, and she cannot remember most of the summer. All she knows is they were in love and now this is happening. He doesn't contact her. Her cousins don't contact her. Nobody contacts her. She has chronic migraines. She becomes a Percocet addict. And two years later, she has to go back to the island to find out why those people are so angry at her, they will not speak to her anymore. See them again. See if she can get her love story back and figure out what happened.

I think that that's really darn good. You got me, like, start to finish there. So When We Were Liars hit shelves in 2014, it wasn't without a major marketing force behind it. And you've of course, been in the world for a while. But what kind of expectations did you have for the book before and during, like, that early publication?

Us.

And what were some of the most exciting and surprising moments? Kind of take us back to 2014. Like that era of when the book came out.

We Were Liars was a pivot for me. I had been writing contemporary young adult comedy, and some of my books were maybe deeper than your average comedy. Much as I love all comedy. They were engaging with like, you know, issues of. Of. Of identity and social class and politics, but they were still fundamentally comedies. And when I was writing We Were Liars, I was ready to try something new, to write a thriller instead of a comedy. And so I wrote this book. And Random House was surprisingly behind it. I mean, what I mean by surprising is that there were waterfalls, which is a kind of shelving in a fancy chain bookstore. It looks a little bit like a waterfall, and it's right up near the register. So We Were Liars debuted on the New York Times bestseller list in its first week. And that was very surprising to me. I knew about the waterfalls, but I did not understand that they would sell books. And I had never been a bestseller before. So that was very thrilling to. To have more readers, basically, than I have had up until that point in 2020.

So six years after that, you saw We Were Liars hit the bestseller list again, thanks in no small part to the popularity on TikTok's bookish community, Booktok. Were you surprised? And how did you find out?

I found out because one of my kids sent me a TikTok, and the TikTok was a young woman crying, and she was holding up the book. And if I remember it correctly, the text said just, wtf this book? And I looked at that TikTok and I thought, oh, this is, like, very vulnerable and funny, and I'm amused by this TikTok. But I didn't understand that it was selling books, and I didn't understand that they were more like that out there. And I think it was probably about three or four weeks later that We Were Liars hit the bestseller list. And I remember asking my publisher what had happened. And my best assumption was that I had made a state list in Texas state, and they have some big reading lists, and their reading lists really do reach a lot of people, and people do buy books based on those lists. But I assumed it was the librarians of Texas who had. Had brought this book onto the bestseller list. And my publisher was like, I have no idea. You know, the publicity team didn't know, the editor didn't know, marketing people didn't know. Nobody had done anything. And it was, you know, a few weeks later that we realized that. That these young people, mostly women, mostly young, were making videos that were either either they were crying videos like the one I just described, or they were like aesthetic videos where they were pulling images and film clips and kind of sharing the aesthetic of the book, which is very much like a, you know, a private island off the coast of Massachusetts. Beautiful houses, golden retrievers, teenagers jumping off cliffs, swimming, bathing suits, bonfires on the. On the. On the beach, that kind of thing. So There were those two different kinds of. Of TikToks, and there were a lot of them, and I was incredibly lucky.

So you published a prequel to we were liars in 2021. But the inspiration for that wasn't the resurgence in popularity, unless you were, like, writing so quickly as soon as you saw that first TikTok, and. And I. I doubt that. But can you talk a little bit about what inspired Return World and where, and how publishing the book into a world where books were so popular, where the book was so popular, impacted the experience. And I'd be curious, too, about your upcoming sequel to the series hitting the shelves in November.

Well, I did write Family of Liars, because We Were Liars had had a surge in popularity. And that is not to say at all that I wrote Family of Liars out of a desire to, you know, capitalize totally.

Yeah.

On the commercial life of We Were Liars so much as that. It felt, especially during the pandemic, like such an incredible gift to have readers. Right.

Yeah.

I had published a book in 2020 that had not found its audience. I think I published two books in 2020 that did not find their audience. And I had a book that people were not only reading, but responding to in public ways. And I felt so lucky. I basically thought, how can I give something back to these readers? Like their enthusiasm is such a treat. And I really had a lot of trouble figuring out what my subject should be. And I'm friends with a YA novelist called Gayle Forman. She's a wonderful writer. And we live in the same neighborhood and we live near a park. And so very often we go and we walk around the big loop of this park. It takes about an hour. And so we went for a walk. And I was saying, you know, I'd like to write another book in this series, but I just don't know how. I don't see how I could possibly write a sequel. And so I think I'm just not going to, even though I have the urge to. And if you've read We Were Liars, you can understand why a sequel is maybe not a natural idea.

[Sponsor Representative]

So.

[Emily Lockhart]

Gail was like, you have to. She was like, you have to. Why? How can you cannot walk away from this opportunity. You like, you need to figure this out. And then she just kept asking me questions about the world and about the themes and about the things I was interested in writing about. And by the time we had walked all the way around the hour long loop of the park, I had an idea that I would write a story about the moms in We Were Liars back when they were teenagers and uncover family secrets about the Sinclair family that I hadn't even really known were underneath the surface of We Were Liars. So I, I had a kind of way into the story that allowed me to write about young people, about teenagers and, and kind of unpack the mythology of this self mythologizing family.

So you must have written it really fast.

No, I don't feel like it came out in 2021. I feel like it came out in 2022. Am I wrong? Maybe it did. I did not write it that fast. It was, it was late. It was things. It took forever. As far as I'm concerned.

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[Emily Lockhart]

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[Emily Lockhart]

And if you're ready, I'd love to pivot to talking about the adaptation. What did the process look like in terms of the book being optioned and moving through the entertainment industry?

Thank you for asking. For people who are just not really tuned into what's happening on Prime Video. We Were liars is a TV show. Prime Video. It's eight episodes. It launches June 18, 2025. It stars Emily Allen Lind, and the showrunners are Julie Pleck and Karina Adley. Mackenzie and I wrote the finale and I was an executive producer on the show. So this book, unlike any of my other books, has been in development since pretty much its publication. So at first it was in development for to be a film for about five or six years with one company, and then I got the rights back and then it was in development somewhere else for television. And then I got the rights back again. And at that point, Pleck and McKenzie came on board. And I had met them before at like, general meetings in Hollywood, that kind of thing. And they had been interested in We Were Liars previously and they had kind of been keeping up on this project. And when it was available, I knew mackenzie well enough to tell her that it was available and they pounced on it.

I'm like, I'm imagining in my head what this would have been like as a movie. I feel like the eight part series was the perfect, like, length and offered so much opportunity to like, get to know these characters really, really well and to be invested in like, okay, what's going to happen next? Like, because every single episode had a cliffhanger at the end.

Yes, well, that, I mean, Pleck was the showrunner and architect of the Vampire Diaries and the originals and legacies and a whole lot of, like, super binge able television. Mackenzie was the showrunner of Roswell New Mexico. So they are really, really brilliant at shaping television in such a way that you are just dying to find out what's going to happen next. That said, the show fleshes out the novel in a lot of ways because the novel is. It's in first person. From Cadence, the heroine of the story, it tells her story as she sees it, as she remembers it. And television is not a first person medium. Right. You have to flesh it out. You have to spend some time with other characters besides your protagonist. You have to show some things that your protagonist might not have been able to see or know about. So they fleshed out the stories for Johnny and Mirren and Gat and the three mom characters and for Gat's Uncle Ed. And they had a writer's room that was filled with a whole lot of writers of different experience levels, bringing all kinds of lived experience and skills as creators to the table. And that also included four writers of Indian descent. And so the characters of Gatt and Ed are developed with a lot of depth and nuance that I could never have done, because those writers brought not only their skills and talent, but also their lived experience to those characters.

I. I really liked what you had to say about the showrunners specifically, because as I was watching this, I kept getting that feeling of, like, those CW shows that were just so good back in the day and the soundtrack to the episodes, like, it had all these perfect elements to make it a show that I was like, I want to know more. I want to know more about all of these characters, not just the main character. I want to know more about Ed. I want to know more about Gat. I want to know more about the rivalry between the sibling sisters and, like, what their story is. And I feel like it did such a great job of offering enough to know them, but also leaving just enough out that you want to ask these questions.

Oh, good. I'm so glad you liked it.

Yeah. So I'm curious. I know this differs for every author and for every book, but what role did you as the author get to play in the adaptation? Did you have any opportunity to work with the script, with casting, with making decisions about what was cut or added? Like you mentioned working on the finale. Was there anything else that you got to work on?

Yeah, I was in a 10 week development room while Pleck and Mackenzie were figuring out what the sort of most important themes, sort of what the big gesture picture was for the show. And then the writers in the writers room went off and wrote the season. And I came in and I wrote the finale. I went to the writers room for a couple weeks to break my episode, and then I wrote it, and then I was an executive producer. And that can mean a whole lot of different things. And in my case, it meant I got to be part of the location scouting, which was really interesting. We scouted nine different places from, you know, New Zealand to Ontario to Nova Scotia, where we filmed the show. And the casting, which was a real treat for me. I found it really, really fascinating and a wonderful education, and I think I was a useful member of the team. Then I was on set for 10 weeks, working mostly as a writer on set. And then I was part of the post production process, which really just means I watched every episode multiple times. I offered notes when I had helpful or useful things to say. And, you know, some of those notes were incorporated in the adaptation. But I was in no way the boss of this. Pleck and Mackenzie are the bosses of this show, and the ultimate creative decisions were always theirs.

But it sounds like you had an opportunity to, like, really be a part of it. I know not all authors get the opportunity to do that when their book is being adapted.

Yeah, I was really in it. They were very, very open.

So what is something that you're most excited about in terms of Prime's adaptation of your story? Was there a particular scene or moment or casting decision that you have been, like, especially taken with, that you're excited for viewers and fans of the book to experience?

Well, in the book, there is a scene where Cadence and Gat go out on a boat, and it's kind of the first moment when they really catch feelings for each other. And it's just the two of them on this boat, and they jump in the water, and the water is way too cold, and they're super overwhelmed, and they get out of the water right away and make jokes about sharks and things like that. And then there's kind of this moment when there's only one towel, no towels at all, in the show. There's a towel. And they did this scene so beautifully. If people want to see some images before the show launches, they can go to We Were Liars on Prime on Instagram, and see this beautiful, beautiful underwater picture of the two of them that's straight out of the show. And I think people who are there for the love story are really gonna love this moment, which is a reader favorite as well.

I will make sure I link that in the show notes so you can click right over and and experience that moment before you even get to see it on screen. Were there any surprises along the way? Maybe another way of asking this is whether or not there are moments in the show that you envision looking or feeling differently in your head than what was filmed or any directions that you may have just like never considered before.

Well, everyone is so good looking. People are ridiculously in a traditional Hollywood way. So it's many, many types of good looking and beauty in the world. But in the traditional Hollywood, what you most often see on television, these are some of the most spectacular looking people that I've ever seen in my life. And in my brain everybody was more ordinary and the landscapes are really, really incredible and the clothing is really, really lush and beautiful. And so I think this was just fun. Do you know what I mean? I don't want it to look exactly how it had looked in my imagination. I wanted it to look like great television. And it does. And so that was just kind of a fun, delicious, you know, eye candy. Part of the experience was being there and then seeing what was going on to the, you know, to the screen, what was the camera seeing and, and realizing how incredibly gorgeous it was going to be.

One of the things about We Were Liars, both the book and the adaptation, it's. That's not just a story about the teens at the center of the book. It's an intergenerational story. And the $adults lives are detailed and layered as well. And yeah, listeners, many times you teens are embarrassed, ashamed or grossed out by those adults. But I would love if you would talk a bit about where and how you see this book and adaptation landing with teen audiences as well as adult audiences. In other words, what are your thoughts on writing a story with crossover appeal in genre that seems to lend itself to really good crossover stories?

Well, I mean, I have always been a crossover writer. When I do events, even going back to my earliest young adult books, I would have a lot of adults in the room. And so I and you know, I love to read young adults. So I've always thought of it as, you know, about and for teenagers and beyond.

[Podcast Host]

So.

[Emily Lockhart]

The TV show takes these three moms and fleshes them out in really great ways. They're played by Candice King, who's a Vampire Diaries favorite, has worked with Julie Pleck on other projects and is a really an amazing actress. She plays Bess, Caitlin Fitzgerald plays Penny, and Mamie Gummer plays Carrie. And because these three women are the center of the second book, Family of Liars, and because the showrunners had read Family of Liars and understood the backstory of these characters and, you know, a lot of why they are the way they are with each other. They, they fleshed it all out and they added new stuff, but always remaining faithful to the story that's in Family of Liars. And these actresses just, they completely bring it. These are like, you know, if you think you like those ladies in White.

[Sponsor Representative]

Lotus.

[Emily Lockhart]

I have just a couple more questions for you. I'm curious, why do you think that psychological thrillers, let's like We Were Liars and so many others in the years after 2012's Gone Girl continue to be popular with readers today? Like, what makes this particular genre endure?

Well, the genre goes, you know, back to Jane Eyre and earlier, you know, and I think it endures because the human mind and the tricks it can play upon us is something that's universal. Right. We all have this human mind. We all feel afraid. We all second guess our perceptions. We all are unsure of the truth. So it's a way of heightening and dramatizing, just kind of a fundamental human experience.

I think, I think you're right. I think about it, you know, because, and you probably have seen this too, just in ya. There are genres that trend for a few years and then they kind of, they don't go away, but the popularity lessens and then it comes back and it seems like psychological thrillers have like maintained that course, which is great to see because there's so many and so many really great ones out there.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's something of a golden age for the YA psychological thriller and possibly for the adults psychological thriller as well. There's some amazing things being written and published.

Let's dive into that just a little bit. I'm going to wrap up this conversation with a couple, I guess it's three rapid fire book recommendation questions. So this is the opportunity for listeners to hear from you about some books that you love and want other people to pick up and read. So my first one is what are one or two? Why psychological thrillers that you'd recommend to readers who are looking for something under the radar?

Well, this is not quite a YA recommendation, but I think people who love YA will love it. Which is My Sister the Serial Killer by Ouija Braithwaite. And it is about exactly what the title suggests, about a young woman who realizes that her younger sister is a serial killer. And it's about siblings and loyalty and family secrets and, and you know, the, the question that always gets me, which is what do you do with yourself when you have done something truly terrible, something that you are not sure you can forgive yourself for. And that is the. The situation that the main character finds herself in as she aids and abets her sister's crimes.

It's got a tremendous cover, too.

Yes.

So after. Go ahead.

You wanted more. Was that the only recommendation?

No.

Or did you.

Wait a minute. I've got more questions. But if you've got another one you want to throw in there, feel free. I'm. I'm writing.

I'm gonna stick with that one for now.

Okay, cool. My next question. The next two questions are still rec. Questions. So after readers watch and read or reread We Were Liars, what books would you recommend they pick up that. Scratch that. That same itch. They could be thrillers, but they don't need to be.

Oh, well, obviously they're going to go straight from watching We Were Liars on Prime video to watching the samurai turn pretty on prime video, which starts airing immediately afterwards. And if what you love is a YA love story set on the beach with the most beautiful people and sensitive, thoughtful exploration of emotional situations involving first love and family, Jenny Han's Summer I Turned Pretty series book series is highly worth the read. And the third book is the third season. And so you could read the book which is called. Is it called We Always have Summer? Is that.

I think. Yeah, I think it's We'll Always have Summer.

We'll always have Summer. Yeah. Yeah. That you can find out what will happen. Maybe. I don't know. I hear. I hear some rumors. They've changed.

Yeah, I heard too. So I'm really curious. So then my last question for you again. Book recommendation question. And I don't know if this is easier or harder than the two I've asked already. And it's this. Thinking about your own catalog of books. What is one YA title that you wish more people would pick up that you've written and why I wish people.

Would pick up again? Again?

Yes.

Oh, thank you. Again. Again is a love story. I wrote it after. After We Were Liars, after Genuine Fraud and we were like. Again is a story of. Oh, it's a love story in multiple universes is what it is. But it also, also. It also has a big plot twist. It's also very emotional. People come and tell me that they, you know, cried through the ending, but it's very hopeful. It is not a psychological thriller at all. It is really about. About healing, about reconnecting after family, you know, trauma and grief. It's about love. It's about figuring out how to love another person. So it's really a book of my heart and it has a lot of dogs in it and all of them are nice, alive dogs.

I read that one when it came out and really, really enjoyed it. And it's also a short one. So like readers who are like, I need a shorter read. And that doesn't mean that it lacks in depth. It's just, you know, it's not one of those like doors stoppers, but covers enough content that it could be a doorstopper.

Thank you. I never write long. All my YA books are on the shorter side.

As somebody who likes the shorter reads, I appreciate that. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Emily and listeners. Get ready to meet the liars on prime in just a couple of weeks. If you're listening to this on hey ya. When the show drops. Otherwise, you might be able to watch it now.

[Podcast Host]

Thanks so much for listening today. We hope you'll enjoy this excerpt from the audiobook edition of With a Vengeance by Riley Sager, read by Erin Bennett, available now wherever books and audiobooks are sold.

Anna Matheson clears her throat, straightens her spine, and steadies her trembling hands. She pictures herself as a statue, rigid and impenetrable. Anything to make her look like she's not afraid, when in truth, she's been scared for so long that fear has seeped into her marrow. Still, when she begins to speak, her voice is firm and clear. You know who I am, just as you know why I've gathered you here. If you haven't figured it out yet, you will very soon. Anna pauses, just as she'd rehearsed the length, timed to the millisecond to allow any unlikely stragglers to catch up. By now you've recognized each other. Maybe you've even had a chance to chat a bit. Likely long enough to suspect that you've been brought here under false pretenses. That suspicion is correct. The reason for this journey is simple. I'm here to Just Then the train lurches, sending Anna off balance. In the tiny bathroom of her room, she watches her reflection sway in the equally tiny mirror. The first time she'd been on the Philadelphia Phoenix, everything had felt enormous. Not just the room, but the train itself. Every car seemed endless, as if walking the entire length of the train constituted a journey of miles. Then again, Anna had been 11 at the time, and trains loomed large in her life, especially ones run by the Union Atlantic Railroad. Unlike most rail lines of the day, Union Atlantic had been privately owned her father had inherited the family business when her grandfather passed away. In another bit of unconventionality, it hadn't relied on an outside company like Pullman to build its cars and locomotives. Union Atlantic designed and manufactured its own in house at a facility in Philadelphia, including the Phoenix. Anna's mother had even designed the interiors, filling them with her favorite fabrics and colors. Velvet drapes, chenille upholstery, damask walls, all in shades of peacock blue, emerald green and rich ivory, surrounded by walnut and gold leaf and bronze. After her mother, her brother, and Anna herself, the Philadelphia Phoenix had been her father's pride and Joy. Debuting in 1937, it wasn't the first streamliner train, nor was it the fastest or the most famous, but those superlatives didn't matter. The Phoenix was still a gleaming marvel that offered both jaw dropping speed and unparalleled luxury. Plus, her father loved it, which is the main reason Anna chose it for the night's journey. It serves as a reminder to the others of all that had been taken from her. The train lurches again, this time with purpose. A moment later, someone raps four times on the door. Seamus here to tell her what she already knows. The train is in motion. There's no turning back now. Anna hurries to the door, feeling the train picking up speed beneath her bare feet, a strange sensation that for a second wreaks havoc on her balance and makes her reach for the wall to steady herself. No matter how many times she travels by train, it always takes Anna a moment to navigate that unwieldy combination of standing on solid ground while also being in motion. Train legs, her father had called them. Removing her hand from the wall, she stands in the middle of the room, waiting for her legs to learn how to absorb the gentle rocking of the train. Once they do, she's able to reach for the door, unlock it and pull it open. As expected, Seamus is on the other side, filling the narrow corridor that runs the length of the car. The windows behind him show nothing but blackness. They are now in the tunnel on their way out of the city.