← Book Riot - The Podcast
Book Riot - The Podcast
Markus Zusak on THE BOOK THIEF at 20
00:29:32
Book Riot Senior Editor Kelly Jensen talks to author Markus Zusak on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of The Book Thief.
Loading summary
Transcript43 lines
- [00:01]
A
Lifelock. How can I help?
- [00:02]
B
The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't. One in four tax paying Americans has
- [00:07]
A
paid the price of identity fraud.
- [00:08]
B
What do I do? My refund though.
- [00:10]
A
I'm freaking out. Don't worry, I can fix this.
- [00:12]
B
Lifelock fixes identity theft guaranteed and gets your money back with up to $3 million in coverage. I'm so relieved.
- [00:19]
C
No problem.
- [00:19]
A
I'll be with you every step of the way. One in four was a fraud paying American. Not anymore. Save up to 40% your first year.
- [00:27]
B
Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.
- [00:31]
A
Hi everyone, this is Scott. If you want to learn about the world's oldest civilizations, find out how they were rediscovered, follow the story of Mark
- [00:41]
D
Antony and Cleopatra's descendants over 10 generations, or take a deep dive into the Iron Age or the Hellenistic era. Then check out the Ancient World podcast
- [00:53]
A
available on all podcasting platforms. Or go to ancientworldpodcast.com that's the ancient World Podcast.
- [01:04]
C
Hey everybody, Jeff here. Special edition of the Book Riot Podcast Today, Senior editor Kelly Jensen takes over with her conversation with Markus Zusak on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of the publication of the Book Thief. This was a real phenomenon to continue to be read all around the world. Historical fiction. You're going to get into the episode here in a minute, but it really cool conversation on a book that has really stuck around. One of the huge books I remember for the early days of Book Riot being all over the place all the time. Interesting to hear the perspective of where it came to be and to watch a global phenomenon happen from the point of view of the author. If you want to find Rebecca and I on the zero well read feed this week we are rerunning our Vineland episode. If you don't know, 1990s Vineland, written by Thomas Pynchon, is the basis of for the movie One Battle After Another, which may or may not be winning the Best Picture Oscar this weekend. I think it probably will win the Oscar for Best Adapted Screenplay. Rerunning that over there since that's timely. You can check us out on Patreon. We were just discussing Brawler by Lauren Groff. A lot of other places to find us and we'll be back real soon with another regular episode. But with that, here's Kelly's conversation with Marcus Zusak.
- [02:16]
D
This is Kelly Jensen, senior Editor at Book Riot, swooping into today's episode of the Book Riot Podcast for a really exciting, exciting interview. There are a handful of books that I can name that have reached both Teen and adult audiences with wide enthusiasm. Among them are the Hunger Games and the Hate U Give, just to name two really quickly. Also among them, a groundbreaking work of historical fiction that you know the premise of, even if you may not have read it yourself. So today I'm really, really excited to be speaking with Australian Arthur author Marcus Zusak, who is currently in the United States on a small book tour in honor of the 20th anniversary of the Book Thief. The Book Thief is narrated by Death, and it follows Liesl Memder, who learns about the victims of World War II through her experiences through love, death and literature, the latter of which is one of the foundations of the story. Liesl doesn't know how to read when she's sent with her brother to a foster home. And over the course of her time with her foster family, her dedication and devotion to learning and reading escalates and helps her find solace among tremendous loss, both personal and more broadly through the war. Marcus, thank you so much for joining me today.
- [03:28]
A
That's a pleasure, Kelly. Thanks for having me. And yeah, I've been looking forward to it.
- [03:33]
D
So while I have given a very rough description of the Book Thief, one of the things I think all listeners get a lot from is hearing what a book is about from the person who actually wrote it. Can you give your own pitch for the Book Thief?
- [03:47]
A
Oh, the, the old pitch, it's like when you finish a book and people say, oh, what's it about? And then you, that's what every author or every writer just freezes in that moment and says, oh, my God. And in this case, I've had 20 years to think about it, but I still often go with the idea that I would, I used to think, or when I was writing this book and it kept getting bigger and bigger. I just thought, God, no one is going to read this book. It's great. Going to be my least successful book. Because I thought and so here's the first pitch I, I suppose is I imagined more other people pitching it to their friends if they've read it and if by chance they liked it and they'd say, oh, you got to read this book, you know, and the Book Thief. And, and the friend would say, well, what's it about? And then, you know, what do you do? You've got to say, well, it's set in Nazi Germany. It's narrated by Death, nearly everybody dies. Oh, and it's 560 pages long. You'll love it. And so every now and again, I think of that as the pitch but to me, like, I probably. I used to talk a lot about a lot of the things that happen in the book, but then finally I sort of hit upon this idea where I just sort of at the end of all of that list, I said, but really it's about the idea that in Nazi Germany, Hitler destroyed people with words. And this is a book about. Or it's a story about a girl who steals the words back and writes her own story with them. And hopefully it's a beautiful story written amongst the ugliness of that world. And to me, that's what the Book Thief is about. And I guess it's about, you know, what we all do personally, you know, various times, whether it's hard times or good times, it's. And not in necessarily an overly moral kind of way. You sit down to write a beautiful book, and essentially that's what I was trying to do. But that, to me, is what the book is about.
- [05:42]
D
I think that description is so perfect, and it's really kind of what I thought a lot about when I was considering what I wanted to ask you and especially what I wanted to ask you on such a huge anniversary for a YA book that has really stood the test of time and continues to be such a foundational text for anybody who wants to learn what YA is or who loves YA and wants to continue to see the category grow. Which kind of nicely leads into my next question, which is when you reflect upon the book's 20th anniversary, where and how do you think the book's meaning has changed over the course of the last two decades, particularly when it comes to things like increasing global fascism? Or maybe another way to ask this is, do you think the book reads differently now in 2026 than it did in 2006?
- [06:34]
A
Yeah, I think there's definitely a lot of yes and no in an answer to that question. And because you could. Yeah, there's definitely an argument, a very strong argument, to say that there was an element when the book first came out that a real sense of looking back, like looking back at something like Nazi Germany and what happened there. Whereas now there's a sense of you could just be looking around where you've got a world that's swung back towards that sort of thing with autocratic power and misuse of power and all of those things being really prevalent. But then again, I think that in 2005, 2006, when the book came out, I remember being in New York when it came out and going to a concert that was a concert for peace, you know, or, or something along those lines because, you know, we're sort of coming off the back of the. The second Gulf War as well. And so I sort of think this, this. There's always been this. There's always been this element in our. In our lives of history happening around us. And, and this idea that the world actually never stops. And so my intent when I was writing the book was. Was never, you know, and I know most writers say this, is that, you know, not to come in from that moralistic point of view, not to come in from this is what I have to say about whether It's World War II or the current state of politics is your, you know, your primary focus is. Is always great story, it is always great character and, you know, and hopefully good writing. And so the idea of the book being relevant now or reflecting what's happening now is I think, you know, I think there's definitely a truth in that. And, and, and in a way, you know, I don't. I definitely don't think of that as something gratifying. You know, where you're writing, you know, where you feel like, you know, you're doing something that's current or something that's. That still. Still makes sense. It's more just this idea of where you just sort of go, oh, my God, humanity, it just never. It just doesn't stop. And you know that we're always walking this line, whether it is in times of peace or times of great upheaval, we're always walking down that line where we're asking, we're asking ourselves, well, what's my story going to be amongst this greater geopolitical landscape, what's my story going to be when someone knocks on my door and needs my help, what am I going to do? And that's not necessarily how I set out to write the Book Thief, but I think you learn what the book is about as you're writing it, and then you learn more about it, you know, even 20 years after it's come out.
- [09:23]
D
I'm curious thinking about that. I mean, you couldn't predict the future, right? Like, you just couldn't. And I think that the same could be said when you think about that question, but give it a different context, which, you know, I'm curious what you think about the Book Thief and its connection to the changing, evolving and growing landscape of young adult literature over the last 20 years.
- [09:47]
A
Yeah, I think this one's more. If I really think about it, I was. I was 16 when I tried to write my first book. And you know, I always joked that. That all eight pages of that. That attempt could be entered into a competition for the worst book ever written. Although I never made the distance, and even then I was. I was never interested, or. So I. I did that. And then, you know, I stopped because I didn't have the legs to keep going. And then I wrote my first finished book when I was 18 or 19, nearly 19, and that got rejected by publishers, and thank God it did. And same with the second book that I didn't even send off because I knew it wasn't good enough. It was too much like the first book. And then I had this long fallow, or felt like a long fallow period of about three years where I couldn't write anything. And I think that was a period where I was really growing and trying to find my own voice, because I think first you're just imitating your heroes and, you know, you essentially. I don't want to say plagiarizing, but, you know, you're really just copying. It's almost like fanfiction in a way, where you're. You're sort of copying your favorite writers and you're trying to meld together something that is your own style. And I kind of learned at one point that what I didn't want to do was to be an adult trying to mimic, you know, the current trends of, say, the way teenagers speak or the way teenagers are. I wanted to be very particular in a way that I wanted my characters to talk a certain way that was their way, and it wasn't trying to fit in. And so. And I still. And whether that has relevance to the question, you know, about, you know, what young adult literature is doing now and what it isn't, is. And a book like the Book Thief, there was always a bit of debate about, is it a book for young adults? Is it a book for adults? And so to me, it never quite wasn't a young adult book that was saying, okay, here's a book for you as a teenager that is about you, that is in your voice and that you can really relate to. To me, it was a book that was saying, okay, yeah, you're. This is for you, but you've got to come up here to read it a little bit. And not to say that it was of higher quality, not at all, but just those bigger, you know, just themes that were a little bit out of the realm of the everyday teenager. So for me, I feel like that's something that has stayed the same for me where. And I really try not to pay attention to whatever trends are and, and, or not even trends, but just you've got to. I think you. You can only write so much like yourself so that no one else could have written that book, you know, and that is always the goal. That was a. A lesson. I remember being a kid and losing a race at athletics once and thinking that I'd won. And I remember my. My dad saying to me afterwards when I complained to him, you know, he said, he said, yeah, he said, I thought you won as well, but you made one mistake. You didn't win by enough. You just have to. You have to win by so much that they can't take it off you. And, and, and I know, and you know, in that way, I liken that to writing, in that I want to write a book so much like myself that nobody else could have written that book. And so there you're not comparing yourself in terms of quality or if you're better or if you're, you know, more successfully commercially or winning awards or whatever. It's just like, try to do that. Try to do that. And that's the thing with the Book Thief that I've sort of arrived at, is that whether it's a good book, a bad book, or whatever it is, I know that no one else could have written that book but me. And at some point you stop and you go, okay, I think that's enough. And if it contributes to something like YA literature or adult literature or anything in between, you have to sort of settle for that. And I think that's the last thing I'll say is that you don't get to choose how or like, if you're successful at all as a writer, let alone how you're successful, you know, whether it's in. Throughout the world or in your own country or wherever. And so I'm kind of at peace with the idea that the Book Thief is just what it is now and wherever it settles into a spot, you know. You know, you sort of hope that, you know, it'll not fit in, it'll find its own reason for being there. And I think that's the idea to have a book, find a book or write a book that has a reason to exist in the place where it lands.
- [14:15]
D
I really like that answer, and I really think that that speaks to, too, why the book continues to be what it is 20 years later. It was authentic to itself. It was authentic to your voice and the story you wanted to tell. And that really nicely kind of goes into my next question. Which death is the narrator of this book. And while death is indeed unfair and scary, one of the takeaways is that death also has this element of care and love to it. And this is a big question. Of course, I don't expect you to have the answer to it, but I'm curious what your answer is to this, which is that do you think Western culture has changed in how it perceives or grapples with death in the last couple of decades?
- [14:58]
A
Yeah. Oh. You know, what's really interesting to me is when this book came out and it still happens to me today, sometimes somebody will come up to me, and often, whether it's an older person or younger or whatever it is, but someone will often come up and say, I just want to thank you because. Because of your. Your death that you portrayed, I'm not scared of dying anymore. And I used to laugh and say, you know, I'm really happy for you. I'm so. I'm really happy for you because I'm still just terrified of dying. And I think that's actually swung around in the last while, maybe, you know, in the last 20 years, because not necessarily for me being older, but I just sort of think of the way we live and the highs and lows and, you know, and the beauty and the fear and all the doubts of living. And so I think pinning the idea of, like, a death is such a terrifying thing. It's not what our experience of the world is. And so it doesn't. I don't think it makes that much sense. And in turn, and I think we've got to, like, address with a question like that, the idea of kind of, like the lesser role that religion plays in a lot of people's lives. And whether that. So there's, in that case, the surety of what happens after death and whether that's good or bad. And then now that, like, where people aren't, you know, necessarily, you know, following, you know, whatever religion is telling them in that sense. So there is an idea. There's more of a gray area maybe, in people's minds. And I just. One of the joys of writing the book was playing with the idea that death is, like, the missing piece of us. And I think, well, before I wrote the book, I just remember just talking to a friend who was telling me about an article or talking about the idea of death being so important in our lives because it's what makes everything worth it. Knowing that we're not going to be here forever is what puts a value on all of our experiences. So I kind of like to look at it that way, in that, okay, death is inevitable. And, and I think, I think, I think there is maybe an element where we're not treating death as such a, you know, that awful thing to face. But I don't like to speak for other people either, I suppose, but that's definitely how I feel about it.
- [17:32]
B
This podcast is supported by Quince A thoughtfully built wardrobe really comes down to pieces that mix well and that last and that's where Quince shines. Premium fabrics considered design and everyday essentials that feel effortless to wear and are dependable as the seasons change. We've been doing a little wardrobe refresh at my house and I recently picked up a few of Quince's 100% Pima cotton tees for my husband. They've quickly become his Go to the fabric is long staple so it stays soft and doesn't pill, and they look polished enough to wear on their own or layered. Exactly what you want from a staple, and they don't break the bank. Quint's has the everyday essentials we love with quality that lasts from lightweight cashmere sweaters to linen bottoms and shorts and tees in 100% Pima cotton and European jersey linen. These are the versatile pieces that make a wardrobe actually work from season to season, which is really important where we live in the South. Quince works directly with top factories and they cut out the middlemen. So you're not paying for brand markup, just quality clothing that's built to hold up to regular wear and still look good. So stop overcomplicating your wardrobe. You don't need a closet full of options. You need staple pieces that actually work right now. Go to quints.com bookriot for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it and you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to quince.com bookriot for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quids.com bookriot this episode is brought to you by Peloton.
- [19:10]
D
Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus, powered by Peloton iq. With real time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go explore the new peloton cross training
- [19:30]
B
tread +@onepalaton.com this episode is Brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started@redfin.com, own the dream.
- [20:02]
D
I've just got a couple more. Well, I guess technically three. So one. Plus a couple questions left for you. One of the core elements of the Book Thief is the power of words and stories. Lysel is so moved by them that she steals them when she. When the need arises. Can you talk a bit to this theme of books and words as power as it relates to what we're seeing right now with the ongoing rise in book censorship? Obviously been a wildfire in the U.S. but it's not just in the U.S. we've seen similar attacks on books and reading in Scotland and Ireland and Russia and even Australia as well over the last half decade.
- [20:40]
A
Yeah, it's always an interesting one. And I remember when I was, when I was beginning to write the Book Thief, originally, there wasn't going to be a book. Book burning, you know, there wasn't going to be a book burning in the, in the book. And I didn't really. I just sort of thought, oh, no, I think that's kind of too typical. I think that's kind of what we're expecting in a book like this. And then I can't remember, it must have. I just knew that then would really serve the story or something else was going to happen. It wasn't just a book burning. Something had to happen. And obviously it turned out to be that. That Liesl would steal a book from the ashes of the fire that hadn't burned. And, and then I immediately. So what happens is I go to the details and I immediately thought, oh, that's a good image of her putting the book under her shirt or dress. And it would. She could feel it burning her a little bit and, and so on, and that someone would see her steal it and. And so again, they're sort of serving the story first. But I was really, I think what writing this book not necessarily taught me, but what I sort of came to realize is just how important stories are to us as a species or as humans, in that there are the stories we read, the stories we write and tell, but then there are the Stories we make. And that idea of what we do with our lives is our story or a collection of stories. And in terms of the idea of censorship, you've got this idea that stories are. You really think stories are so sacred to us? You think of. What I mean is we have these physical elements that keep us alive, the physiology of everything, but stories are actually what we're made of. And then when you have people wanting to control that story and there's that, obviously, then that's a. That's a point of. They're wanting to control us. And, and that. What that does more than anything else, you sort of think, well, what's the worst thing about that? And I think to me, you know, taking away the ability for us to listen to each other and to that. That sense of empathy that you get from hearing someone else's point of view that you don't necessarily agree with or an experience that you don't understand. And, And. And that's why, like, that's what I, like, I love about the idea of novels is that you get to see the world in a way that. That you. That is totally foreign to you, and yet you can place yourself in it. And, and for that to be taken away for whatever reason, I feel like, is, you know, that. And so I totally understand why, you know, campaigning against censorship in that way is so important. And because it's. It's robbing people of understanding other people. And, you know, I think that idea is, you know, you see what that leads to in a sense of Nazi Germany and in a sense, what's happening now. Which comes back again to your first question or the second question, you know, about. About politics and, you know, the rise of fascism. And that's. And that's what a book like the Book Thief, you think could have been written in the 1940s and could have been written in 2026. And. And so, yeah, the. So I kind of understand exactly why you're asking that question. You know, I hope that's a halfway decent answer as to how I feel about it.
- [24:19]
D
Yeah, no, it's a great answer. And it just. It makes me think of, you know, the complaints that we hear all the time that nobody listens to each other. And it's like, well, because we're not giving the opportunity to. One side is controlling the narrative, the other side doesn't get to have a say in it. So you, you know, really captured that idea there. What has been one of the most surprising experiences you've had in the last 20 years since this Publication or what's an experience that you're most proud of when it comes to this book 20 years on?
- [24:51]
A
I mean, to. The greatest gift has just been just readers. And, and, and you turn up to a bookstore somewhere. Like I remember being on like, like trips to America and you' a bookshop somewhere that you've never heard of. And, and, and you get you going there and you're just thinking, who's going to show up to this? Like, there's gonna be anyone here, you know, and then there's this great collection of people there. And, and, and I think the, you know, and within that gift is, is the bigger one of when someone comes up to you and they say one of two things. They'll either say, I love, I love this book, or they say, oh, this is my favorite book. And that, that is. Has been the most surprising thing over the years because I think of my favorite books growing up and what they meant to me and even that I still reread today just because I love being in that world and what that, what that has meant to me. And then for someone to say to you, this is my favorite book. I mean that never. And the, the funniest is when they say, oh, I'm sorry. I'm sure you hear this all the time. And I could never get tired of hearing that. I could never. Because to think you've written someone's favorite book, that's just like that. I. You couldn't think of as a writer. I don't think for one person to come up to you and say that there is nothing better than that. I mean, apart from the writing itself, where you get something to work that was troublesome or, you know, your little victories that you have when you're alone writing but out in the world, that's the greatest gift that, that I've been given. And, and it's been the most surprising thing too. And you know, and I love those readers for that. And you know, you even love the read. You even love the ones who come up to you and say, yeah, that book, congratulations, that's going great. I just couldn't get into it. Yeah. So you take the good with the bad, that's for sure.
- [26:46]
D
And I mean, it shows you they tried. Right. And were interested enough to like, hear what you had to say, even if it didn't quite land for them.
- [26:54]
A
Well, it's quite funny. Is it? And then it'll be. And you know, it wasn't like I didn't try, I tried several lives. And so, I mean, but You. And this is the. The great thing about writing, too, is that, you know, you. I. I like to think that there's. There's always, you know, writers like to it. There's a secret love of being slightly humiliated as well. And so you, you know, where there's just this thing of, like, oh, you're a writer. Are you written anything? You. Have you been published? Have you been. And then, you know, you got to explain all this thing and explain what your book's about and all those types of things. But, yeah, I like the idea that you. To me, I don't like to sit around and think of myself as some kind of artist or anything like that. I'm a tradesman, and I go to work and I sit down and I just try to. I'm more in pursuit of an art form. And then when that connects with someone in a way where they're inside the pages. And I said, like. And I know I've extended the answer to this question, but what made me want to be a writer was being 14 years old and staying up all night to finish S.C. hinton's the Outsiders. And it's black words on a white page, but I was seeing it in color, and I was there. I was inside those pages. And. And to me, that's just such a magic act. And. And, you know, forget all those sort of, you know, magicians and things like that. To me, this was pure magic, like real magic. And to be able to do that for a living, and then for someone to come up to you and say, oh, I love that, and I felt so much during this book, I mean, that's just. That's. That's the greatest. And yeah, you know, and I realize what a privilege that is.
- [28:36]
D
You've given such a beautiful answer. And it ties perfectly into my final question for you, which is, you know, I've asked you a number of big and meaty questions. So let's go with something potentially a little bit lighter, which is, what are some of your favorite works of historical fiction that you think both adult and teen readers will want on their to be read list?
- [28:59]
A
Yeah, I'll probably, you know, I know what's going to happen is I'm going to walk away and go, oh, why didn't I, you know, why didn't I think of that book or that book? And so, I mean, I would probably, I think, you know, the beginning and the end is, for me is the Diary of a Young Girl by Anne Frank, of course, because it's such a heartfelt rendering of everyday life and, and, and just that idea of the person like something so personal. And then when you realize at the end, you know, what's happened is you realize, oh, that was, that was one little huge life. And, and so I think for me, for me, you know, that's, that's a really, you know, that that's probably the most seminal one for me and I know there'd be several others, but I'll probably just leave it at that because I just think, you know, if there was one that, that I think people should read, and especially it being a firsthand account, I think that makes it all the more, all the more powerful.
- [30:06]
D
That's the perfect recommendation. Thank you so much for joining me on this interview. I am so excited to share it with listeners and appreciate your time and insight and your beautiful and thoughtful answers. On the occasion of what is really a huge milestone for a YA book and for really any book but in ya especially to like have such longevity and to. I'm editorializing on this but like I see the, you know, the next 20 years of this book as well. And so thank you so much for joining me today.
- [30:40]
A
Oh, thanks Kelly. It's just been an absolute pleasure. I could have, could have talked to you all day.
- [30:51]
B
2 Good Co Coffee creamers are made
- [30:53]
D
with farm fresh cream, real milk and
- [30:55]
B
contain 3 grams of sugar per serving.
- [30:57]
D
That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers
- [31:02]
B
for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold or frothy, two good coffee creamers
- [31:09]
D
make every sip a good one.
- [31:11]
B
Two good coffee creamers. Real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle.