Mid-Year Check-in Time. PLUS: Rodney Freeman on ARE YOU A LIBRARIAN?

Summary

Book Riot - The Podcast: Mid-Year Check-in Time. PLUS: Rodney Freeman on ARE YOU A LIBRARIAN?

Release Date: July 21, 2025

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1. Mid-Year Literary Landscape

Hosts Welcome Back Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky kick off the episode by highlighting the absence of a recent news-focused episode and express enthusiasm for diving into a plethora of mid-year literary updates. They outline the agenda, which includes Book Riot's best books of the year, bestsellers, and a special feature on Rodney Freeman's documentary, "Are You a Librarian?"

“It's been a while since we've done a news episode, Rebecca, but we got a bunch of mid-year stories.”
— Rebecca Schinsky [01:05]

2. Best Books of the Year So Far

Diverse Selections and Personal Favorites Rebecca and Jeff discuss their curated lists of the year's standout books, emphasizing the variety and personal connections to their picks. They mention contributions from other Book Riot writers and tease upcoming Patreon content that promises a "hot list check-in" to gauge the literary temperatures among the hosts.

“You'll always know someone by name.”
— Rebecca Schinsky [02:00]

3. Bestseller Insights

Publisher's Weekly Snapshot The hosts delve into the Publisher’s Weekly bestseller list, highlighting notable rankings and sales figures. Rebecca expresses disappointment over the commercialization of bestsellers, pointing out the dominance of Romantasy titles and limited diversity among top sellers.

“There are two big self-help books with Mel Robbins and James Clear holding on.”
— Rebecca Schinsky [13:06]

4. The State of Romantasy

Sustained Popularity and Industry Impact Erica and Rebecca analyze the enduring trend of Romantasy, discussing its origins and the industry's commitment to nurturing this genre despite mixed critical reception. They debate whether upcoming releases will maintain this momentum or pave the way for new trends.

“Romantasy is here to stay even if you wish that the trend were going away.”
— Rebecca Schinsky [15:59]

5. Book Recommendations and Reviews

"A Marriage at Sea" & "The Carpool Detectives" Rebecca and Erica share their thoughts on recent reads. Rebecca praises "A Marriage at Sea" for its compelling character study and seamless narrative, recommending it as a versatile pick for a wide audience. Erica discusses "The Carpool Detectives," highlighting its engaging true-crime narrative and well-crafted audio production.

“It's a relationship study which is found in super compelling.”
— Rebecca Schinsky [35:44]

6. Reading and Resistance Series

Spotlight on Black Librarianship In a poignant segment, Erica converses with Rodney Freeman, the producer of the documentary "Are You a Librarian?" They explore the pivotal role of Black librarians in the fight for civil rights, emphasizing how literacy and access to information have been tools for empowerment and resistance.

“Black librarians continue that legacy of finding freedom through reading.”
— Jeff O'Neill [48:59]

Historical Context and Modern Challenges Rodney Freeman elaborates on the history of Black librarians in America, discussing seminal events like the first documented library sit-in in 1939 and the Tougaloo Nine's pivotal actions in 1960. The conversation underscores ongoing struggles against book bans and the preservation of Black literary history.

“Libraries were segregated, and Black librarians were fighting against the status quo.”
— Rodney Freeman [51:03]

7. Contemporary Issues in Literacy

Media Literacy vs. Traditional Reading Rebecca and Erica discuss Constance Grady's analysis of contemporary literacy challenges faced by young people. They debate whether the decline in traditional reading is a genuine issue or a byproduct of evolving media consumption habits.

“Reading deeply and critically is a skill that has to be taught.”
— Rebecca Schinsky [32:21]

8. Engaging Book Discussions

"Summer Storms" and "A Man and a Woman Walk into a Bar" Rebecca reviews Sarah Maclean's "Summer Storms," likening it to a blend of "Succession" and "Knives Out," while Erica shares her enthusiasm for Katie Y.’s "A Man and a Woman Walk into a Bar," praising its literary depth and emotional resonance.

“It was like Knives Out meets Succession.”
— Rebecca Schinsky [40:17]

9. Listener Engagement and Community Picks

Interactive Book Picks and Competitions The hosts encourage listeners to engage with Book Riot's curated lists and participate in giveaways, fostering a sense of community and shared literary exploration.

“You can win all 20 of them if you go to bookriot.com/hot20.”
— Erica Ezaffetti [02:00]

10. Closing Thoughts and Future Content

Anticipation for Upcoming Releases As the episode wraps up, Jeff and Rebecca express excitement for future content, including Rodney Freeman's documentary release and continued discussions in their Reading and Resistance series.

“Look forward to more content through our Reading and Resistance series.”
— Rebecca Schinsky [64:41]

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Notable Quotes

• “Romantasy is here to stay even if you wish that the trend were going away.”
  — Rebecca Schinsky [15:59]

• “Black librarians continue that legacy of finding freedom through reading.”
  — Jeff O'Neill [48:59]

• “It's a relationship study which is found in super compelling.”
  — Rebecca Schinsky [35:44]

• “Reading deeply and critically is a skill that has to be taught.”
  — Rebecca Schinsky [32:21]

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Conclusion

This mid-year episode of Book Riot - The Podcast offers a comprehensive overview of the current literary scene, blending bestseller analyses with thoughtful discussions on the cultural significance of reading and literacy. The highlight remains the insightful conversation with Rodney Freeman, shedding light on the often-overlooked contributions of Black librarians in America's civil rights movement. Whether you're a casual reader or a literary enthusiast, this episode provides valuable perspectives and engaging content to enrich your reading journey.

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Listen to the full episode and explore more at Book Riot Podcast.

Transcript

[Jack Daniels]

Jack Daniels is proudly served in fine establishments, questionable joints and everywhere in between. So no matter where you go in every bar, you'll always know someone by name.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Jack, Jack and Coke. Shot of Jack.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Jack Daniels, please.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Right away.

[Jack Daniels]

That's what makes Jack Jack.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Copyright 2025 Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey. 40% alcohol by volume 80 proof.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Close your eyes.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Exhale.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Feel your body relax and let go.

[Jack Daniels]

Of whatever you're carrying today.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

And breathe.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, sorry.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.

[Jeff O'Neill]

1-800-Contacts.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

This is the Book Riot podcast. This is the Book Riot podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

And it's been a while since we've done a news episode, Rebecca, but we got a bunch of mid year stories. Book Riot's best books of the year. The best selling books of the year so far. Bookshop's bestsellers of the year. Kelly wrote for us. I think it's on the site today a roundup of like a meta analysis of the best books of the year so far list. I think we'll do all that. And then on the Patreon that we're gonna record right after this will come out later this week probably is a hot list check in. So it's a temperature check. It's at 9,000 degrees where you are. But we're gonna do our own temperature check here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And we're halfway through the year. So this is our like mid check in on what are the hot books. Last time we checked in it was like late spring, April.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There weren't a whole lot of big things happening. I feel like I'm interested in what you have to share with me about the hot list this time. And next week on the Patreon. I know folks have been anxiously waiting. We said we were gonna do something fun with the great G. I think editing time has finally appeared.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I'm backed up. There's no other way to put it. I'm backed up. We'll have it out there before too long. Other points of order. You can win all 20 of the picks from our pal show Vanessa Keith, Rebecca and I, we each picked five and you can win all 20 of them if you go to bookriot.comhot20. I'll put a link in the show notes there through the end of the month. 7:31 Also at the back half of this episode, Erica, our own Erica is in conversation with Rodney Freeman, a former librarian and producer of the documentary Are youe a Librarian? About the rich and overlooked history of black librarianship in the US So really looking forward to that. Do stick around for that there. We're gonna do a sponsor break and get into the the lists of the year so far essentially.

[Rodney Freeman]

Today's episode is brought to you by Kanopy. Stream Smarter Use your library card we all know streaming is a little bit out of control these days. There's just so many different apps that you have to have to get all of the content that you want to watch. But on the Kanopy app you can stream thousands of thousands of movies or TV shows for free thanks to the generous support of your public library. A moment for Libraries just They're the best. All you need is a library card to access popular movies and TV shows, read alongs and kids programming on your smart TV, tablet, phone or browser. Visit kanape.com to find a library near you and stream Smarter for free.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Today.

[Rodney Freeman]

Again, that is kanopy.com thank you once again to Kanopy for sponsoring today's show. Today's episode is sponsored by Harlequin Publishers of let's Give Em Pumpkin to Talk about by Isabel Popp Textile artist Sadie Fox did not sign up for this when she agreed to come home to Pea Blossom, Indiana. It was to care for her father's beloved pumpkin patch. The deal was that just for the summer, she would grow a ginormous pumpkin, win the Indiana State Fair's pumpkin contest, and finally win back her father's grudging respect. Instead, a horde of wild hogs destroyed the entire patch. Which is precisely when the annoyingly sexy sunshiny next door neighbor shows up. Josh Thatcher is a tech millionaire who traded in the office for growing gourds, including experimental squash hybrids. And for the life of her, Sadie can't understand what he sees in her sweary tattooed, prickly self or why he's offering to help his biggest competitor. But a storm fueled kiss proves there's something growing between them. Maybe it's just an attraction. Maybe it's more. Whatever it is, it's already bigger than Sadie's fast growing pumpkin or the secret that Josh has been hiding. This is a spicy small town fall romance that you can read in one sitting. The perfect kind of read to transition from summer to fall. And this book is by one of our very own Book Riot contributors, Isabel Popp. The book is available [e-mail] thank you once again to Harlequin for sponsoring today's show.

[Jeff O'Neill]

On WhatsApp. No one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friend and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone do you.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Want to say anything more about our picks as they overlap or don't with both book rights? Best books of the year so far. Like we did a little hat switching because we picked one in the show and then blurbed about it differently. Like I had to write about had to. I got to write about Exit 0 even though you did the stand up for it at Pals. People can look at this. I got addition and audition on both sides and talked about that enough. I don't know what else to say.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I mean I got to write the blurbs here for Searches by Vahini Vara and for Life in Three Dimensions by Shigehiro Oishi, both of which I talked about in the PALS episode. Which if you haven't listened, is back in the feed from last week. We loaded it right up right after the event so you can hear us and Vanessa do that. I always love seeing the whole Book Riot list. Like we claimed these a while ago. I had forgotten by the time the list came out which one I ended up blurbing. And you and I have been jockeying around some of the same titles all year long, but it's always fun to see what other staff and contributors have picked. There's just such variety and I always leave these lists like feeling affirmed about my impression about what some of the big books of the year are, but also having discovered titles that I hadn't heard of yet and adding a bunch of things to my tbr, which I can't say for all of the best books of the year list that happen on the Internet. There's not always a lot of new discovery if what you've been doing for the first six months of the year is paying attention to lists the whole time.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah, a couple ones that I can use as an excuse to give A double shout out for. I'd forgotten that Sucker Punch by Sachi Nicole came out this year.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That was this year.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

This year. This year. I talked to her in First Edition. We had a really good time. But Kendra picked. Kendra Winchester, who writes for us in a bunch of different ways, picked that for one of hers.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's a fun one.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Also the Book of Alchemy, which I talked about on this show. Alison Doherty picked.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Just started that this morning.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Oh, yeah. What do you. I mean, it's really good.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, I mean, I like it so far. Yeah. We have some big creative stuff coming up here that we're going to be working on behind the scenes. And since you had talked about it as like kind of a bunch of smart people's thoughts on creative practice, it can't hurt, right? To put some of that in my brain.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

And the nice. Ames is thinking about reading Exit 0 After your because he hasn't done a short story collection before. And I said, yeah, I think you would like it. I mean he certainly could read at that level. And I said, here's the nice thing about short stories. If you don't like the one you're on, it's not going to last that long. So you can move through them that way. So this is a collection. I should say that she compiled solicitations from people from Salman Rushdie to John Green, John Batiste. There's a whole bunch of people in there. Lena Dunham as well. Lena Dunham is getting a big glow up right now with the new show out. But there is a little bit of a thought kind of meditation ish thing on some aspect of creativity, maybe with a little personal memoir. Depends. It varies quite a bit. And then a prompt to go along with it. And some of it is just the sort of buffet element of like you kind of seeing a bunch of different things, a bunch of different formats. I thought it was pretty cool.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I feel like a kind of an anthology or collection like the Book of Alchemy that works in a similar way to like when you're reading a short story anthology or something where like if you take a couple, like if there's, you know, 50 in the book and you find a couple that really work for you, the book has succeeded. Like, you're not gonna jive with all of them. But if you're like sampling the things from the buffet and you find a few that really resonate or that shift something in your own thinking or it the same way as like the Oliver Berkman meditation for mortals, like not every entry in that was game changing. But if you find two or three that are game changing like your game got changed. So good job.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

One that I put on my list. I think I maybe talked about it in the don't tempt you with a good time lists. I do sometimes for first editioner here is Kuleana, the story of a Family, Land and Legacy in Old Hawaii by Sarah Keulani Gu that Suzy Duman picked up. That is a memoir slash narrative nonfiction account of this parcel of land that this family was gifted by Kamehameha in 1848. 60 acres and still figuring it out. So I really like the movie the Descendants starring George Clooney and I've spent some time in Hawaii and I find myself wanting to learn more about it. And like this feels like if maybe chatgpt or Sarah was looking at my email or thoughts and thought this is I'm joking here because of course it's their family story. But but I was so delighted to see this as exist because I really wanted something like this told from a certain point of view. I really like. Almost like the Northwoods but for real of like following this parcel through a couple centuries. Then of course all the political and other ramifications of it. So this is one that I'm going to be listening to before too long. I've got a couple of things to talk about in frontless foyer that are burning in my ears right now, but this one was a reminder and it got me to add to cart and check out. There you go. That's always the thing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's the sign you're looking for. I think the one that I've like finally put in my cart after hearing Vanessa talk about it on the show one week when she was filling in for you and then again at Powell's last week is so many An Oral History of Trans Non Binary Genderqueer and two Spirit People of Color by Caro do Robertis, an oral history of queer elders talking about self discovery and activism and resistance and survival and those are important voices in all times, but especially right now. Vanessa gives a great pitch for it and every time she's talked about it, I've wanted to do the like shut up and take my money. So I'm finally gonna make good on it.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I'm not a betting person, but if you would have asked me to guess if Liberty would have picked the new Annie Hartnett novel, I would say and she did the Road to Tender Hearts. I've talked about that here. Chris Arnown Pick the River Has Roots by Amar El Mohtar, which I interviewed her for First Edition. I really like that book as well. Audio is the way to do that, I think. Even though I don't do it. There's a lot of singing. She and her sister perform the songs that the sisters sing in the book on audio. There's some other things that are on here we're gonna mention here in a minute, but go check that out. Put a link in the show notes. You can browse the picks there. Let's go on to what sell. No overlap, I should say. There's not a single. Well, is that true? No. There's one title.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

That overlaps. We didn't mention it here. Sunrise on the Reaping by Suzanne Collins, which is very good. It was picked by. I don't remember who picked. I'm not on the tab now on our side that picked that. It is the number two best selling book of the year so far. This includes Backlist, I should say courtesy.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Of and this Publisher's Weekly List.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Publisher's Weekly List. But Circana provides the information. 1.6 million units. A smash hit. A smash. Smash hit.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. Less than a hundred thousand units behind number one, which is the Let them Theory by Mel Robbins. Onyx Storm, the Deluxe Edition by Rebecca Yaros is number three at 1.5 million. And then there's a huge gap on these lists. There is always a huge gap somewhere. Often it's between the number one and the number two, but one, two and three are pretty close together. Then we jump all the way down to Dov Pilkey, dogman number 13, half a million un. Then the housemaid Frieda McFadden. Then the regular edition of Onyx Storm by Rebecca Yarrows. Atomic habits still hanging on. It's been on bestseller list for what, like seven years now? Oh, the Places yous'll Go by Dr. Seuss, which is always in the top 10 bestselling books of the year so far.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Cicadas they Come, it starts, it shows its head in May, Always at the.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Middle of the year, maybe not again by the end of the year. Fourth Wing is at number nine. And then the crash by Frida McFadden at number 10. So we have two appearances of the same title by Rebecca, just different editions. And two appearances by Frieda McFadden, the ever reliable Dr. Seuss. Did you see they're going to do.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

A film adaptation of other places you'll go.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, really?

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah, the Seuss estate. I mean, the Grinch movie that Illumination Studios did a couple Years ago with Cumberbatch as the Grinch for a while was my daughter's favorite movie and it's surprisingly watchable around holiday time and it's done pretty well. But the Seuss estate is trying to get it out there and there's a new Cat in the Hat coming out so it's not going anywhere.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. Yeah, we will I think continue to see of the places you'll go like every graduation season. It's hard to imagine something unseating that. An interesting top 10. Mel Robbins, Suzanne Collins. Like two big self help books with the Mel Robbins anatomic habits holding on. We'd been wondering for years what was going to unseat James Clear. So along comes Mel Robbins and the one I would have gotten wrong at the beginning of the year was Sunrise on the Reaping, you know, famously did not make it the it book of the month.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah, big swing in the mist. I'd like to introduce a new bureaucratic entity into the podcast. You know, we have the Court of Rightness, we have the Ombudsman for Reasonableness. The world's most reasonable man. I would like to introduce the Ad Hoc Committee on Common Sense.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Let's do it.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

And what this needs to do is the Ad Hoc Committee on Common Sense says on this list you can say even though it's not technically true, because there's two different ISBMs that Onyx Storm is the best selling book of the year. Yes, because there's a deluxe and regular. So we consulted the Ad hoc Common sense committee and they agree that it is okay to say Onyx Storm is the best selling book of the year.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. With like what, one point just over deuce. Yeah, just over 2 million copies. So a quarter of a million more than the let them theory. When you combine those.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I understand technically why they separate these ISBNs but like come on man.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

But it is interesting to see the split, right? 4 to 1, 3 to 1. I guess. 3 to 1.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well and they definitely choice architectured that there were more printings of the deluxe edition. It wasn't that much more expensive than the standard edition, but there were just so many more deluxe editions available out in the world. It was. Was easier to find like you if.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

You went to Target like that was you had to buy. Right. Like that kind of stuff, you didn't have a choice for the other one. It's so weird. Like it's weird. I wonder if this is a unique moment in time. Interestingly, I, I don't think circana maybe I can Get Brenna to tell me if we did top 50 only front list. Do we see any other Romantasy titles or how many other romantic. Because like if with all the talk of Romantasy, romantic, Romantasy, they're not showing up here except for the one. Right. Are they getting in the top 100 in the Goodreads list? There's a whole bunch of them.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There's probably an Acotar in the top 50 best selling or a couple Acatars. Oh no, not front list. Yeah, never a front list.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

A front list. So I don't know, I don't know how people's advances and experiences of that. We're now really in the thick of the last two years of acquisitions that I've been hearing about. We've been told about romanticity for titles they're coming out. Is it panning out? Does anyone know the answer to this question? Is it panning out for people that, that that did all those spreads and all that stuff?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Jane Friedman wrote about this in her Hot Sheet newsletter or she has renamed it but I always know it as.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I can't remember what it's called this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Week and was talking about how reliably These trends last five to 10 years that the like billionaire romance trend that was kicked off by 50 shades of gray lasted in that 5 to 10 year range. And we're in the early years of Romantasy still. So the message from her was Romantasy is here to stay even if you wish that the trend were going away. But part of why it's here to stay is exactly what you were just saying. There are books coming out now that publishers made deals for When Acotar and 4th Wing started popping off. And there are publishers still either making new deals for those or we're still waiting on the third, fourth, fifth books in some of these multi huge series that publishers have signed on. So we will continue to see new Romantasy titles I think with big budgets behind them for a few more years because publishers spend a lot of money to acquire those and are going to spend a lot of money to try to make them successful. But will they show up? Like I don't know that we have. We don't have any dates for the next Rebecca Garros. She did say that writing this third one almost like literally almost killed her. Sarah J. Maas has said that she's finished the first draft of the sixth Acotar book.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

That's where we are. We're draft. We're draft news. I guess that's right. I saw the headline too.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. But I don't think we're going to see that next year. So I can imagine a version of this list next year. A top 10 that doesn't have a romantasy.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I feel more acutely than ever. And we've always done this. What's selling like, what are the top sellers? And every now and again we get something crossovers for something we care about ourselves personally and frankly. The larger critical publishing establishment that does the best books of the year kind of list the award winners. There was always two worlds, like what people were actually buying and then the books that got awards and acclaim and critical attention. Now there's three worlds. There's that world, the best books of the year so far list we're going to talk about in a minute. There's the sales world and then there's the online TikTok book Romantasy, Dark EC and there is some. There's now three things in the Venn diagram. There used to only just be two, but now I'm feeling more and more like there's three. And that makes the thing feel even more fractured to me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It feels both fractured and really flattened to me. Like the romantasy stuff. I mean, two of these ten are Rebecca Yarrows, even if they should just be combined into one. And two of them are by Frida McFadden, who also found her success on TikTok. And that's so four of the 10 bestselling slots. Mel Robbins does great social content. I don't know how much of her success is built off of that. The podcast, now it's become a thing.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

These things get a momentum of their own. And I think that's where the Bethem theory is in.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, now that's. It's just running on its own. But for four of the 10 bestselling titles of the year to be connected to algorithmic recommendations and reification of what's already popular is this is where we are. It is, I think, a third world in how publishing functions. But it's also to me, just like a huge bummer.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah. I mean, what's the most interesting book on this list to you of the top 10?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Probably sunrise.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Sunrise.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Sunrise.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah, sunrise. And that's only multibillion dollar two decade old IP.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And also, let's just point out 10 books by White people.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Oh, yeah, right. I'm so used to that on the seller's list that I don't even think to mention it. But that makes sense. There's a couple. McFadden's a couple yarases. Seuss and I mean Seuss has been around for decades. Clear has been around for several years. Like, there's not a lot to get excited about on this list. You know, if you're out there in the world picking these up and excited about it. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but as an industry watcher, as a fan of the medium and format, you know, the old Hastings books, movie, music. Right. You know, the only three you used to get this books is the one where I think for a fan of the genre, generally speaking, or the medium, you're less excited about the bestsellers than other ones. Right. In movies and TVs like the 10 grossing, highest grossing movies of the year, there's going to be a couple that like, you liked. F1. You thought some of these were interesting. Like. Yeah, there's only one here for me. Really. As someone who's kind of generally interested.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Like the Emmy nominations came out earlier this week and as a person who likes TV and watches a lot of it, I was excited about a ton of those nominations and I had seen a lot of those shows and like those are award winners. A lot of them have been highly watched as well. But when we look at like what is considered, you know, good or having literary merit, what's going to win awards and have like critics talking versus what's selling, there's just such a huge gap.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

That's true in tv, I guess we had the ratings. It'd be like Love is Blind now or Love island or whatever. The Love Brutality. I mean we probably would probably if we looked at the list of the 10 highest rated TV shows and cross posted them with the Emmy nominees, it would be as dark as this once.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. If you did streamers versus like basic cable too. It's a huge difference.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

But so maybe anyway, it's just like a boring.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is a boring list.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

A boring list.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

If you're an alien who lands on earth and we're like, these are the top 10 best selling books, make your judgments about how publishing is doing or how like the state of, you know, arts and letters is going, it's not great.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I'm going to jump over. It's not in the, it's not in the agenda. But I'm just going to.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, little surprise. My favorite.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Well, this is Kelly's meta analysis of best books of the year's list that came out on Book Riot today. He is vamping as he's looking and everything is fine. So there's a couple books she looked at time. She looked at a couple of other places where she said here, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Indigo Vulture, Mashables, Book Talk List, Esquire, the New York Times, BBC AV Club.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Nice variety.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

150 total titles across those lists and there were four titles that were on each of the lists. I'm not going to make you guess here, but what I'll say is these four are more interesting by a factor of whatever the largest number you can think of is in no particular order we do not Part by Hong Kong the Emperor of Gladness by Ocean Vuong the Buffalo Hunter Hunter by Stephen Graham Jones Love to see which seems to actually be breaking out for him. He talked about this in it books like he's done a lot but this one has broken out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I have it on my team for our book Fantasy League and I'm feeling good about my odds at the end of the year with Stephen Graham Jones.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Luckily the best books of the year so far list do not score points on you but it's a pretty good indicator for what things will yeah the.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Mid year check ins don't but I'm feeling good about what November is going to look like.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I mean it doesn't guarantee you on the list at the end of the year but it's really hard to be the end of the year list if you're not on mid year list because the back half of the year has so many more titles generally speaking and then one day everyone will have been against this by Omar Al Akkad I think that sound that feels right to me. I mean there's a reason it's on all four because that feels right to me from the critical establishment there. So titles that are on three lists.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Each also notably all four of those are people of color which is great.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

To see on four lists. Audition by Katie Kitamura, Mark Twain by Ron Chernow, Sunrise and the Reaping by Suzanne Collins and Things in Nature Merely Grow by Yiyun Ling. So the Collins not only is number two bestseller but it's like on the it's in the second tier for best books of the year which is an unbelievable achievement for IP YA kind of stuff.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I got that one so wrong but I can own it.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

And then as you go down interesting 4 and 4 so there's not a huge change in the number. But when you get down to oh sorry, four and three were the two tiers. Then once you get down to two the number triples. I'll just run through these quickly. Atmosphere, Careless People, Dream Count, Flesh by David Saleh, Heartwood by Amity Gage, King of Ashes by Sean Cosby, My Documents by Kevin Nguyen, One Golden Summer by Carly Fortune, Sky Daddy by Kate Falk. That's doing very well.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It really is.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Stag Dance by Torrey Peedles the Antique, Peter's the Antidote by Karen Russell, the Devils by Joe Abercrombie, the Dream Hotel by Leila Lalami, the Names by Florence Knopp, the River Has Roots by Amal El Mohtar, Theft by Abdul Razak, Gurna Gurna Baby Trauma Plot by Jamie Hood, Wild Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey and Wildside by LC Silver. So that feels about right. It's fairly. These lists. This feels more commercial than in years past. And I don't know that I'm for or against that, but I'm feeling it's like it's more commercial. Maybe it's because you've got the Cosby. You have Taylor Jenkins Reid, Taylor Jenkins Reid, the Devil and even like Scumbag is pretty commercial.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And the Dream Hotel was a read with Jenna Pick. Like that's commercial. Like upmarket, but commercial. I think Wild Dark Shore, you can also. Wild Dark Shore feels pretty upmarket commercial to me.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah. That's an interesting. So 27 titles showing up on more than one of the 10 lists. That means there's the. If you did a Venn diagram, the list is a little, little tiny dot in the. In the middle. Because there's really nothing going on here. We haven't seen a significant number of standout titles. I think that's right. It feels like there's less consensus than normal. I did a. I think I did one much like this a year or two ago and that was more concentrated. There were more tiers at the top.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. There has not been a big literary hit of the year so far that like the online book people or the Joan Davion tote bag crowd, as we would call them, have circled around which we are adjacent. Yeah. I think Audition is making the closest. I thought for a little while it might be Stone Yard Devotional. Yeah. I mean it's going to be Katabas is probably for everybody all the way around once August hits. But really interesting to be more than halfway through the year and that we didn't have a big novel of the first half of the year even staring down RF Kuang coming out later on.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

The award season is wide open. I mean, it always is wide open because there's so many books where it's like whatever. But it's not just a Gorge. It's like the Grand Canyon.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I was thinking yesterday when I was looking at our podcast programming for the next couple of months, like in September, we have to guess what's going to be on the New York Times fiction long list, and that feels a lot harder this year than it did last year.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah. If we go over to bookshop.org's bestselling books of the year, this mixes front list and backlist as sort of anything. These are not in order as far as I can tell, but this is. This. This is where your assistant professor of psychology buys their books. If you know, because it's like super. It's like on Tyranny. Careless People. Octavia Butler we can do hard things. The service Barry Abundance Be brave Abundance. The Book of Alchemy. There is the Emily Henry. I was interested to see that it was not on the top 10 bestselling books of the year. I have no idea if we got from the number. It hasn't been out all year too, so that's always a situation. But has it sold 200,000 copies? I have no idea.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No idea.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

James Rich Girl Nation by Caddy Tassen Katie Caddy Katie Lawless by Leah Littman Giving up is unforgivable. There's a lot of help me deal with my doom scrolling.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, there's a lot of like politically progressive, anxious let this radical but then let them theory. Yep.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Barrier of bones.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, some variety. Some of the big commercially successful things. But when I had scrolled through this the first time and dropped it into our company chat, I was like, well you can really tell. You can make some conclusions about the bookshop.org customer and how that customer is different from like your the general book buying public.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

So there you go there. Let's do another quick sponsor break and we have a couple more links and then we'll get to frontless foyer with.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The Venmo debit card. You can Venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this or their next show. You can Venmo that. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license by MasterCard International Inc. The card may be used everywhere. Mastercard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Erica Ezaffetti]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jack Daniels]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

Dairy free your mind.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Visit sodeliciousdairyfree.com I don't subscribe to Vox, Rebecca, so I didn't get a chance to look at this whole thing by Grady. I don't give a membership fee. Maybe I should. Did you have a chance to look through this at all?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I did. I mainly was just going to drop it here and recommend it to folks because Constance Grady, who bless Constance Grady for doing this work. Often when there is a trend of think pieces around some some big issue in publishing, she's like, is this an issue? How do we know if it's an issue or not? And the kids aren't reading. The kids can't read. Young people don't know what to do with books anymore has been a big subject of conversation for the last few years and Constance Grady dug into kind of the history of this conversation, previous iterations of the conversation, and then some studies that have been done and cited in some of the think pieces to just say is this a case of just kids these days or are we really looking at a shift in literacy skills of young people? Are we talking about kids can read, but maybe they don't read the kinds of things and in the ways that older generations wish they could. Media literacy is a different question and certainly a concern, but it seems to have like bled into this. Kids can't read books or aren't reading books anymore. So I just appreciated that she did that. I will I'm quite happy to pay for my Vox subscription, so I will recommend that to you and to our listeners as well. This one was behind the paywall, but she does great work and I just appreciated the deep dive into like her conclusion is like, maybe there's something here, but the evidence is not in such a clear pile that we should say yes, this is a huge problem. Yes. All of these think pieces that have been rallying around the kids can't read and what are we going to do about it? There's more nuance to it, which of course there is, because welcome to the Internet. But I always appreciate it when Constance gets out there and tries to add some nuance to a very online, very kind of 2018 Twitter conversation.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I mean, I don't know how to contextualize this, like reading novels or whatever. Were you taught how to read a novel in high school? Like, we were in class, but, like, I don't remember again, it's been 9,000 years, so memory isn't what it was. But what does it mean to be taught to read? Do they not actually everyone gets it. Like, it makes sense that kids would not be as spending as much time reading or be as good at it or sort of have the same kind of attention. How could they not? I mean, I don't know where the burden of proof needs to fall here, but when kids go to college, they also don't know astrophysics and they get taught that, like, maybe so. I mean, I would certainly prefer it to be the case that high school students come into or exit with even if they're not going to college. More familiarity and fluidity and maybe fun with reading books, quote unquote. But also, it seems like if you're really worried about this as a college comp teacher, like, they also hadn't read epic poetry and I had to teach them Homer. Like, I don't know. I'm like, I'm not sure what I'm so worried about.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that actually a lot of the concern is more about the attention than it is about specifically reading. And certainly not the thing.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

It's the thing under the thing. I get that. I do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And that's totally valid. Like, all of our attention spans are complete shit. Now, there's a lot of science to back that up. But reading and reading deeply and critically is a skill that has to be taught. And if kids are showing up in high school or college classrooms, I had a couple of teachers, thanks to really good AP classes that did, I think, teach us how to read novels as well as you can try to teach a bunch of teenagers how to read fiction in high school. So I felt like I went in with some skills, but I really learned how to read in a serious way in college.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

That's my experience.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And if you're reading, I think this is maybe baseline. Most kids show up in college and they're not great critical readers. And it's probably worse now because of all of the. Or maybe it seems worse because of all of the distractions or they are having trouble paying attention to a book. But we're having trouble paying attention to everything.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah. Anyway, books that we have not had trouble paying attention to is brought to you by Thriftbooks Frontless Foyer.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We should rename the segment.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah, Witch Thriftbooks. That's where you should go buy your books. Especially if you're interested in used books, because at least consider it. Go look over there. They've got all the books that you're looking for, plus a Reader's rewards program, plus free shipping on US orders over $15, plus movies, games and other things. Go to ThriftBooks.com to find out where you might buy your books online. If maybe you're looking to buy books online. We both write a marriage at sea. Read it. I listened to it. Where would you like to begin with this book?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It rips.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah. 256 pages, 5 hours and 50 minutes on audio.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Coming in with the numbers. I mean it was great. Couple in the 70s buy a yacht. They call it a yacht, like a big sailboat and intend to sail it from London or like England, ish, all the way around the world to New Zealand. Over the course of what, like a year and a half and a few months into their journey, an injured whale runs into the boat and capsizes it and they end up in their 5 foot diameter life raft and a dinghy. And they're in it for months, 118.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

And a half days. Let me ask you this. If you had to catch and butcher a greenback tortoise on a dinghy to survive. Are you making an. Are you. Did you survive this if this is you?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, I had this conversation with Bob.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah, that was our dinner table conversation last night at my house.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I was describing the scenario to him and like this book is so compelling and it moves and you just feel like you're in those, that little tiny raft with them and having their marital arguments that they're having and you know, starving and I think I did a, like, how long do you think I would make it in one of these scenarios? Like till the food runs out or until something else happens. And he was like, well, given your well documented feelings about the zombie apocalypse, I don't feel great.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

You also don't do great in direct sun.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's true. Not like the Brits have much of a better chance.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

No, A friend of mine in college used to Call them lobsters. So they come back from Spain pink and coconut.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, whatever, you know, the human urge to survive is apparently stronger than any of us actually fathom. But my rational brain says that like after the second or third giant ship doesn't see us and the flares are dead and we're down to having to like kill sea turtles and eat them.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Raw, pack off their heads while they're still alive and struggling and bleeding into the boat and eat. You're so thirsty. You're sucking the juice out of fish eyeballs.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I have a hard time picturing myself.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I am so lucky that I've never been close to being that hungry. So I don't know. I don't know what that feels like, but my stomach was. And this is not what the book is about. I mean, the book is really a relationship study which is found in super.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The title is A Marriage at Sea.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

They're differently aged, not by that much, 10 years or so, but certainly differently hooked up emotionally and psychologically where that difference really becomes interesting. And then the book ends earlier than you might think in terms of their voyage and ordeal. And there's much more about what happens to them after which I thought it would lose some momentum. And of course it does a little bit, but a little. I found it to be completely compelling through the end. Did you?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I did too. It was like basically a one sitting read for me. It got broken up by some household stuff, but just all I wanted to do after I started reading it was finish it and be like, oh my God, these people. And also she had the wherewithal to keep a journal.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah, I'm also not journaling while drinking turtle blood.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. She's taking notes and like reflecting on the dynamics of their marriage and that he's despairing and it's on her to like keep the faith and try to instill hope in him. And he thinks that she's silly for doing this, but the conclusion she draws is like, he's weak. And it's. Women who are. Can actually be tough in these situations. Like what a thing to go through with a person. And Bob and I were having the. Like, would we be divorced when we got out of the life raft or are you so trauma bonded at that point?

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I think it's sort of beyond nuptials at that point. Like you're kind of in it to win it or not. Yeah. So the author, again, there was a diaries, there were books. It was a phenomenon at the time. So it's not like this is original. Archival research where there's never been. But you know what? I also don't care. It was very. It was well done. It wasn't like super beautifully written. If this was written by like a New Yorker staff writer, probably turns into a different book. I'm not even saying I want that book, but this is. No, I liked it straight ahead in that regard too.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like it gets the job done. The pages turn. I am ready for adaptation news. Like give it to me.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I mean probably the filming would not be fun but the parts for these two characters are amazing for some a.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Couple of folks to play such a great two hander character study. And I do think that this is maybe my first true 4 quadrant or like Swiss army recommendation of the year. I'm not, I don't. I can't really think of a reader I wouldn't give this to. I'm thinking best books of the year list. I think we're seeing it on Obama. Like it's going to sell.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I saw two people reading it on.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

A plane last week.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Okay, I hope you're right, but feels.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like an Obama book. It's a nonfiction. There's nothing too edgy. Not risky.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah, I guess that's certainly possible. And also you're not going to worry like no one has like Lost at sea trigger warnings like you know, very few people are going to be like oh, this is too close to home.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. And there's nothing like too spicy or too scary or too anything. I loved it. You loved it? I could give it to my mother in law.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

What about Bob? Is he interested in picking up It's a boat.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think he would dig the audiobook. I'm going to recommend it to him.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Okay, what else have you been into?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I read these Summer Storms by Sarah maclean, which is her first contemporary novel billed as a contemporary romance. There's definitely a romance storyline, but to me it felt like Succession meets Knives Out. The main character is a young woman whose father is like a Steve Jobs type inventor. He's basically a Steve Jobs stand in like he invents the smartphone in this book. She is one of four siblings, but she's kind of been disowned by the family for reasons. Dad dies and the gang's got to get back together for the weekend of his funeral on the family's private island off of New York. When they get there, they find out that before they can find out what their inheritance is or get access to their inheritance, their father has left each of them a challenge that they have to complete. And each person's challenge is connected to, like, how their father perceived their own kind of personal foibles or his judgment of them. So they're all competing. And the big catch is they all have to complete their challenges or none of them will get the inheritance.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Gotcha. Little prisoner's dilemma sort of situation happening.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And then it turns out that dad's number two from the company is tall and very sexy.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Okay, well.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And you know, your girl needs some distraction while she has to deal with her parents. So there's like a sexy romance plot line that's happening. But a lot more of the book centers around the family dynamics and kind of the mystery of, like, why did dad do this and what's at the heart of, you know, these tasks that he has set for everybody. There's some family secrets.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

It's like Knives out meets.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it was Knives out meets Succession.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Succession. Yeah, you said that. You said that. Yeah, I felt trying to think of the other. I haven't seen Succession. So that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it felt. If you're in that zone, you will enjoy these books. I really have. Oh, yeah. I've really liked Sarah Maclean's Regency romance novels. But I felt for a while like I read so many regencies that I had to put them down. Like, it got repetitive to me. So I was really excited to see her do something else and like really kind of spread her wings into something that felt like. And it's not technically a romance. There's not a happily ever after. It's a happily for now at the end, I should say, really enjoyed that. And I'm about halfway through Maggie. Or A man and a woman walk into a bar by Katie Yee, which I'm really enjoying so far. Yeah. Her husband tells her at dinner one night in a hilarious scene at an all you can eat Indian buffet, that he's having an affair. And shortly after that, she gets a cancer diagnosis. So not like good times happening. Truly a literary fiction setup. But it does feel kind of in the Jenny offal zone. Like maybe a Jenny offal Linky Wang combo.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Oh, you know, I like those words.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think you're gonna like it.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What about you?

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I cannot stop listening to I'm gonna Race through the Carpool Detectives by Chuck Hogan. I think I talked about this earlier. It's a nonfiction account of four women who during COVID their hobby turned into a pursuit of trying to solve a 15 year old cold case double homicide.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Love that.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

They were all. I think they're all moms. Maybe one of them isn't. But they're women of 40ish years old, and now they're in lockdown. They kind of have some adjacent prior experience or interest. Like one isn't. The setup is one of these women has gone back to like night school to take a course in investigative journalism, and she's watching B roll of like, one of the things we're learning is how to put B roll together for like, the local news. And one of the B roll is this car getting pulled out of a ravine. And I think she had remembered the story from a while ago about this couple that was found in the bottom of a ravine. And it was ruled a double homicide for reasons that no one would say, because it looks like they just dropped, you know, drive off the ravine and get in a car crash and they're dead. Which is terrible, but not necessarily the stuff of investigative journalism. But it was ruled a double homicide, but the case was closed, and she had enough of a connection of it and time on her hands. So rather than like making sourdough, she was getting into figuring this case. And then in talking to other women in her social circle, she found a couple other people that were interested. One of it had been a political researcher, had done opposition research and worked in politics. Another one had a background as a forensic accountant, which turns out to be super useful, sort of randomly. And it's a story of them, the four of them together. I don't want to give this away, but, like, they get into it. Like, they get into this case and you learn about the case. But I'm not the kind of person who just is interested in the murder. What I like is how they did this process. Like this neophyte, right? You are along with them as neophytes. Like, how would you even go about doing this? So I addicted, Like, I'm not a true crime podcast person. I'm not a true crime person. I'm not here for the murder. But the setup here is really great. The audio is good. And Hogan, who is telling the story, is not getting in the way of it. And by that I mean there's not a lot of extra. It's on wheels. It's very well put together in terms of moving a little bit backward and forward. I think underrated for a book like this is construction versus sentence level stuff. You are not here for the sentences. Not that they're bad. There's not a clunky word in the whole thing. But you're also. That was a really moving sentence. And what a meditation on life and death and the nature of Uncertainty and loneliness. Like you're just in this with these women as they're trying to figure it out. So. So again, talk about. I'm assuming this has been optioned like this crushes the big little lies for me or whatever the Moriarty because like it's an actual thing. This should be a terrific limited series on Apple if they haven't done this already. Get all the 45 year old women with Emmy nominations on board.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It sounds like it kind of has Good Girls vibes. Did you ever watch that?

[Erica Ezaffetti]

I didn't watch. It's not that zany though. It's just not like these are. They're at home on zooms, like doing research. Research. It's more spotlight. It's actually more spotlight than Good Girls.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm sold.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Yeah. And there's a detective who surly doesn't want. He kind of wants to help them but. But can't or do they want to? Like it's. I can't believe it. Like if you told me half of this would made up, I would believe you because it's kind of amazing. What?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

How long's the audio?

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Eight hours.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. It's not bad.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Not bad. So that's the Carpool Detectives by Chuck Hogan. And so the other one I did was Marriage at Sea. All right, here comes Reading and Resistance which is a content series led by own Erica. Look at the history of how closely tied reading and literature have been in the pursuit of freedom and how it can help us now. Conversation with Rodney freeman. Show notes bookriot.com Listen Email us podcastookriot.com the Book Riot podcast is a proud member of the Airwave Podcast Network. Rebecca, we'll talk to you soon.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The McDonald's snack wrap is back.

[Jack Daniels]

You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap. Spicy snack wrap wrap. You broke the Internet for a snack?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Snack wrap is back. This episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school tree start prioritizing their financial education and future. Today with a risk free trial at greenlight.com Spotify greenlight.com Spotify Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we Brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Mint mobile unlimited premium wireless. 30, 30. Better get 30. Better to get 20.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

20, 20.

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jack Daniels]

Sold.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of 45 for three month plan equivalent to 15 per month. Required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy. Taxes and fees extra.

[Jeff O'Neill]

See mintmobile.com I'm Erica Ezaffetti and today I'm speaking with Rodney Freeman, a librarian and producer of the forthcoming documentary Are youe a the Untold Story of Black Librarians? Hi, Rodney, how are you?

[Jack Daniels]

I'm good, I'm good. Thank you for having me on.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Of course. It's always, let me just say people don't know, but it's always a pleasure when I speak to you. I always learn so much about black librarians, which is what we're going to get into today. So I really appreciate you coming on. So, yes, today we're talking a little bit about the history of black librarianship in America and how it has often run alongside an overall fight for civil rights. This is part of our Reading and Resistance series, which looks at exactly that. By that, I mean how books, libraries and literature have often been present in the constant struggle for equality. So, Rodney, speaking of your documentary, I would love to share more about what it's about. Could you talk on it a little bit?

[Jack Daniels]

Yes. Yeah. So are you a librarian Is basically two parts, one historical and the second contemporary. And really we're just basically talking about black librarians and how black people use literacy to become free. You know, one of the things that people don't really realize is in the struggle of freedom, how literacy was really, you know, used as a tool. And black librarians being the collectors of literature for, for black history, banned books, all these other great stuff, you know, they've had a crucial role in this fight. And then contemporary librarians, what they're doing today to really highlight and fight against book bans.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it's, it's so interesting. The Reading and Resistance series that I just mentioned before in the introductory article that I wrote for it, I talk about how literacy, literature, reading, all of that has literally been part of the fight for freedom in this country since the beginning of this country. Like, like enslaved people could not read, but reading was a way to freedom for them. And it's, I feel like black librarians continue that legacy of finding freedom through reading. As you were Saying, yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Another thing that's so interesting. I say. I say this each time in the article I wrote. I've said it several times to you, to other people. I have loved books since forever. I've loved libraries since forever. Like, literally since as long as I can remember. I literally only just started learning about black librarians in America through you.

[Jack Daniels]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And when I say that, I'm saying, like, of course I knew there were black librarians. Yes, of course. But the history is so rich. And it's so rich, especially to not be talked about virtually at all.

[Jack Daniels]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And they're just a couple. I don't. Oh, my goodness. It's like even the current iteration of public libraries that we have throughout the country came from black Americans trying to serve their community. Like the current community model that a lot of public libraries follow.

[Jack Daniels]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That came from black people. And I'm just like, how am I just now learning this?

[Jack Daniels]

Right, right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know?

[Jack Daniels]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So one thing. We don't have all day. All day to talk about black librarians. I wish we did. Or rather, the history of black librarianship in America. It's vast. I'm still learning about it, but I wanted to talk about some radical histories. And maybe that's. Maybe that's kind of too basic a word, too broad of a phrase, because I think that looking at the history of black librarians and black librarianship in America is a radical history. When I say radical, I mean people are fighting for freedom, literally. Like, they're even possibly risking bodily harm. They are risking ostracization, perhaps they're fighting against the status quo. So really, all of the history surrounding black librarians in America is radical. But I wanted to focus in on some especially radical moments, and they are ones that you talk about, I believe, in your documentary.

[Jack Daniels]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I know you were telling me, again, this is something that I learned through you. I just need to call you once a week and just get some tea. I'm just like, what's the tea, Rodney? Please.

[Jack Daniels]

Okay, okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know I'm kidding. I would not. I would not stress you out like that, but you were telling me about how we kind of start, like, in the early 1900s with W.E.B. du Bois.

[Jack Daniels]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So can you tell us a little bit about that?

[Jack Daniels]

Right, right. So Atlanta had got a grant from Carnegie. Andrew Carnegie. Andrew Carnegie, who was a philanthropist who actually donated a lot of his money to start some of the first public libraries in America, gave money to Atlanta Public. Atlanta was trying to obtain a Carnegie Library. And so One of the things that Andrew Carnegie didn't really do is that he would give the money to the community, but he really wouldn't tell them that they would have to integrate or desegregate. He would just say, okay, here's the money, you know, you guys do it what you will. And so basically Atlanta was still segregated and did not allow black people into their library. So even though they built this nice new public library, black people couldn't use it. And so, and the funny thing about it though is that they had many books by W.E.B. du Bois in their library. And what they did, and basically what W.E.B. du Bois did was he took a group of people, they marched down to the library and talked to the board and said, hey, why can't we use these books? Because my books are included in the books that you have, you have housed in this, in this library and I can't check them out. And so this is what prompted them to build a, a black branch. But they didn't desegregate, they just build a black branch for the black residents. But what W.E.B. du Bois was trying to, I guess, really push for is that for them to integrate and basically be able to use the library just like any, any white citizen. So, so yeah, this is really interesting and happened in the early 1900s, but before, you know, any of the sit ins and the traditional civil rights as we know it in the 50s and 60s took place.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So yeah, irony is always lost on racism.

[Jack Daniels]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Or I should say irony is always lost in the pursuit of racism. Speaking of sit ins, you were telling me about the first documented library sit in which happened around the DMV area in Alexandria in 1939.

[Jack Daniels]

Yes, 1939 was the first documented library sit in. And just, just to say this, that library sit ins were the precursor to the, the sit ins at the lunch counters in, in the 50s and 60s. And, and basically it was, was a sit in where they would go and they call them quote unquote readings where they would go into the library, asked to check out a book, was told no, and sat down at a table and they would just basically read the book until the police officers come to really escort them out. Well, at some cases kick them out. And, and yeah, basically they were.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

That.

[Jack Daniels]

Strategy was used then in the 50s and 60s for the lunch counters.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think it's interesting how the fight for freedom has changed throughout the decades. I think with black Americans at one point we were chasing after equality always. But again that like the method changed at one point we were like, we have to be respectable, we have to show them that we are respectable people, that we're Christian. You know, that was important during the time that we're chaste, that were all these things. And then we saw that that didn't really matter. So priorities changed. But I say all that to say I think it's, it's interesting how again, another thing I didn't know, I didn't, I didn't know that that library sit ins were the precursor to the lunch counter sit ins. When I think of the civil rights movement and sit ins in particular, of course There's a Tougaloo 9, which we'll talk about in a second. But I think, I do think more so about the lunch counter sit ins. And I think it's interesting how again, we have black people pursuing freedom specifically through literature. So it's like people are demanding to be able to read. Literally, that's it. And it's like we're demanding. We're not, you know, asking for handouts for money. We're not asking for, you know, again, this is before the lunch counter sit ins, as you said, we're not asking for free clothes. We're not asking for this, that and the third, we're asking literally to better ourselves through reading. And that was illegal, Right. So I just think that it's interesting how you have these institutions, so called institutions of progress, of education, of academia, and they are segregated.

[Jack Daniels]

Right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's like again, racism does not know irony. It is full of hypocrisy.

[Jack Daniels]

You can tell the power that learning how to read and write has when you in your laws is documented that these people are not allowed to read, are not allowed to learn. I mean, that's very. When you put that down in writing and you enforce it by not allowing people to read and write and learn, that says something about that society.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It says something specifically about that society. And we're seeing. Yes, that's so true. We're seeing that now with book bannings and this current administration taking away certain pieces of curriculum in schools, not wanting people to learn about black history or you know, non white history, queer history, all of that stuff. It's still, it's still going on. It's kind of like in a way it's like they're doing the same thing they were doing. But this is just like the 2.0 version.

[Jack Daniels]

Exactly.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So speaking of Tougaloo, we were fortunate enough, we had a. One of our book riot writers was fortunate enough to sit down with one of the original Tougaloo9 I will link that in the show notes. So we went from the 1939, the first documented library sit in which inspired the lunch counter sit ins, as you said. And then you had the Tougaloo 9, which I think is probably the most, one of the most well known.

[Jack Daniels]

Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting with that one with the Tugaloo 9, Medgar Evers was involved with that. And basically a group of students went over and just in the same vein of the 1939 sit in within, asked to be to. To check out books, was told no and sat down anyway. And one of the, I think one of the biggest things here with the Tougaloo 9 is that you have a lot of photos and documentation and newspaper write ups of around the Tougaloo Nine. Unlike the, the 1939 sit in you had a little bit, but not that much in, in the 60s, having those photos for people to be able to see. And, and having a video, you actually had a video of this as well. So this is, this is one of the things like, you know, you have photos, you had, you, you have documentation, you have video, which is, you're able to see that people are coming into these libraries asking just to read and being kicked out for, for what? Because they're not causing any disturbance, they're simply in there asking the read. And the reason why they're asked to leave is because the color of the skin.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It also goes against like the stereotypes too regarding black people.

[Erica Ezaffetti]

Right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That we're, you know, insert whatever stereotype you want. As you said, people were just trying to read. And I think just the idea of keeping people from learning about things.

[Jack Daniels]

Right, right, right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Another, another thing that I learned. I'll stop saying that eventually, I promise. I think, I think I will at least. Right.

[Jack Daniels]

You and I are both learning. You know, I get a lot of this stuff from these researchers who have done this wonderful work. So I want to make sure that they're, you know, definitely pay them homage because without their research I couldn't put this documentary together.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's true. And you've introduced me to some very knowledgeable people and I'm just like blown away. I'm all, I'm always like furiously writing notes and researching things and again being like, how did I not know this? But me not knowing this, as someone who is interested in this kind of subject, as someone who is a reader, works in literature, loves libraries, has worked at several libraries. I think it's all by design. It goes back into what we're talking about, which is hoarding information. You know, people who have control over the information. Control the people, really. So that's another thing that goes into keeping libraries segregated, banning books. It's about, you know, control over information, control over knowledge. As I said. Another thing I learned from you. I have known about the movie Mississippi Burning since forever. It's kind of one of those things. I don't know. I think this is, for me. I know some people. I've heard that some people's parents made them watch Roots when they were kids. That's not a laughing matter. It's just a black experience. All right? I'm not laughing at it. It's a. It's a harsh. It's a, you know, serious matter. My mother had me watch Mississippi Burning, so I didn't watch Roots, but I watched Mississippi Burning. So this is a quintessential part of my childhood. And you were telling me how the connection that Mississippi Burning has has to everything we're talking about, basically.

[Jack Daniels]

Yes. Yeah. So freedom libraries is a big thing that I think even with the history of civil rights, we know so much, but then we get. Then again, we know so little. So freedom libraries were basically libraries that were built and started by freedom writers. And the movie Mississippi Burning talks about three freedom riders that went down and unfortunately were killed. One of them was actually going down to start a freedom library. They did start a freedom library. And so that connection with freedom libraries and the Freedom Rides and civil rights, you know, not. I didn't learn about that until last year when the book came out. And I read the book like. Like a matter of, like, a day. And I was like, wow, I gotta make sure this gets into the documentary, because people need to know about these libraries that were harassed and bombed and. And they were built specifically to help people to register to vote.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That goes back to that community element that libraries, especially when they're in black communities have. Voting is another. Is another thing that tries to get controlled. Well, I mean, that's all the time we have for this segment. I invite you all to keep abreast of what Rodney is doing. Is there a website or social media you like to share?

[Jack Daniels]

Sure, sure. Are you a librarian.org or Instagram? Are you a librarian? And Facebook, are you a librarian?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Nice, nice, nice. Thank you so much for. First of all, thank you so much for teaching me all this again. I'm like, I gotta give you credit. You are teaching me so much. Yeah. And thanks for speaking with me today. I'm so excited to watch the documentary when it comes out.

[Jack Daniels]

Thank you. I appreciate you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Everyone. Look forward to more content through our Reading and Resistance series, where you'll find articles, book lists and the occasional podcast.