So...Is it Good?: BURY OUR BONES IN THE MIDNIGHT SOIL by V.E. Schwab

Summary

Book Riot Podcast Summary

Episode: So...Is it Good?: Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil by V.E. Schwab
Release Date: June 11, 2025
Hosts: Rebecca Schinsky, Vanessa Diaz, Danica Ellis
Guest: Vanessa Diaz (Managing Editor), Danica Ellis (Editor)

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Introduction

In this episode, Rebecca Schinsky hosts a discussion with Vanessa Diaz and Danica Ellis about V.E. Schwab’s highly anticipated summer release, Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil. The conversation delves into the book's themes, character development, and overall reception.

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Initial Reactions and Expectations

Rebecca opens by sharing her excitement about reviewing the book after returning from PTO and a trip. She mentions the anticipation built over months leading up to the release.

Rebecca Schinsky [00:28]: "I've been looking forward to this all week."

Vanessa and Danica echo her enthusiasm, setting the stage for an in-depth analysis.

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Hallmarks of V.E. Schwab’s Writing

Vanessa, a long-time fan of Schwab’s work, outlines what makes Schwab’s novels distinctive.

Vanessa Diaz [04:08]: "She has really great sentence-level writing, a knack for writing complex characters, and a tendency to let characters act on impulses without concern for their likability."

She emphasizes Schwab’s ability to create morally gray characters and her skill in crafting immersive, lengthy narratives.

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Overview of Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil

The hosts provide a spoiler-free synopsis of the book, introducing the three main characters—Maria, Sabine, and Alice—and hinting at their connections and transformations into vampires.

Rebecca Schinsky [06:00]: "Maria gets married to a terrible viscount in the 1500s and meets Sabine, a mysterious widow who turns her into a vampire after a terrifying encounter."

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Character Analysis

Maria Sabine

Rebecca details Maria's journey from an oppressed wife to a self-reliant vampire.

Danica Ellis [14:12]: "Maria drains Sabine out of sheer hunger, marking her first and most shocking transformation into a vampire."

Maria embodies the struggle for freedom against patriarchal constraints, choosing vampirism as a means to gain independence.

Sabine

Sabine represents the allure and danger of vampirism, initially appearing as a liberator but revealing a darker side.

Rebecca Schinsky [21:44]: "Sabine is a sophisticated and beautiful woman who takes Maria under her wing, only to reveal her monstrous nature."

Alice and Lottie

Alice’s storyline in modern Boston intertwines with the historical narratives, exploring themes of grief and loss. Lottie serves as a connective thread, illustrating the corrupted morality that comes with centuries of vampirism.

Danica Ellis [38:36]: "Alice's story is deeply rooted in grief, reflecting the broader themes of mortality and the human condition."

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Themes Explored

Feminism and Abuse

The book delves into feminist themes, portraying vampires as symbols of both empowerment and oppression. The abusive dynamics between characters highlight the complexities of power and autonomy.

Rebecca Schinsky [21:44]: "The book examines the real struggle between freedom and the monstrous side of unchecked desire."

Mortality and Grief

Throughout the narrative, characters grapple with eternal life and the inescapable nature of mortality, emphasizing that vampirism is not a true escape from human suffering.

Vanessa Diaz [44:13]: "Even as vampires, the characters cannot escape their mortality and must face ongoing grief."

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Comparisons to Other Works

Vanessa draws parallels between Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil and the film Sinners, noting different representations of vampirism and underlying societal commentaries.

Vanessa Diaz [34:33]: "Both the book and the movie use vampires as allegories for deeper issues like cultural appropriation and power dynamics."

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Audiobook Commentary

Vanessa critiques the audiobook narration, expressing frustration over the inaccurate and distracting portrayal of Spanish accents, which detracted from her listening experience.

Vanessa Diaz [56:41]: "The narrators’ exaggerated accents were so distracting that it almost made me stop listening."

This point highlights the importance of cultural and linguistic accuracy in audiobook productions.

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Categorization and Target Audience

The hosts discuss the book’s classification, debating whether it fits better within adult fiction or young adult (YA) due to its themes and writing style.

Danica Ellis [61:05]: "Fans of gothic literature and morally gray characters will particularly enjoy this book."

Rebecca Schinsky [62:09]: "It appeals to a broad audience, especially those interested in vampires without the need for explicit romance."

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Conclusion and Recommendations

All three hosts generally recommend the book, appreciating its depth and complex characters despite minor critiques like the audiobook narration. They suggest it for readers who enjoy gothic themes, queer representation, and intricate vampire lore without heavy romantic or sexual content.

Rebecca Schinsky [63:57]: "If you're looking for vampires portrayed in a morally complex and gothic setting, this book is a great choice."

Danica Ellis [63:51]: "Ideal for readers who support women's rights but also acknowledge their flaws."

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Notable Quotes

• Rebecca Schinsky [07:44]: "It's a book about three women who eventually are vampires. I guess we'll talk a little bit about them and try not to give any spoilers."
• Daniela Ellis [21:14]: "Maria does think about, like, a feminist revenge approach, basically, like, she'll just kill bad men."
• Danica Ellis [25:33]: "Lottie is telling us at one point like this, when we find out that it wasn't Lottie that turned Alice. She confronts her."
• Rebecca Schinsky [46:39]: "This book, at a lot of moments, felt like it could have been advanced YA to me rather than adults."

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Final Thoughts:
Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil by V.E. Schwab is a nuanced exploration of desire, freedom, and the enduring impact of societal constraints through the lens of vampirism. Its rich character development and thematic depth make it a compelling read for those seeking more than traditional vampire narratives.

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• Website: bookriot.com
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• Patreon: patreon.com/bookriotpodcast

Transcript

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Rebecca Schinsky. Jeff is out today and I am joined by our managing editor, Vanessa Diaz, and an editor at Book Riot, Danica Ellis. And we are here to talk about one of the biggest releases of Summer, V E Schwab's new novel, Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil. We've been hearing about it for months and the three of us are convening to determine whether it's good. Vanessa Danica, thanks for joining me.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I've been looking forward to this all week.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, me too.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I confess. I read this a couple of weeks ago before I went on pto and then I got all excited all over again when I came back from my trip and was like, oh, I get to review the book and then I get to sit down with them and we're going to talk about it. I've been looking forward to this conversation for months. Before we get into it, a couple common attractions in the Book Riot feed. First of all, Jeff and I will be back at Powell's in Portland. Vanessa will be with us on July 9th to talk about the best books of the year so far. You can snag a ticket for 10 bucks and get 10% off any purchases that you make at Powell's that night. And we would love to see you for a live recording of the show, a chance to hang out. One of Powell's book buyers, who reads more than probably all three of us combined, is also going to join us and talk about some of their picks for best of the year. And we're just really stoked to get into that. I have had a little sneak peek. Sneak peek. Sneak preview peek is called a preak a sneak peek the picks and it's a lot of fun. Coming up in the Patreon, Jeff and I are going to talk about Richard Linklater's before trilogy, which is maybe our shared favorite movie trilogy, starting with Before Sunset. But we're going to talk about or Before Sunrise. We're going to talk about all three of them together. So you can look for that in the Patreon And a bunch of other fun stuff coming up. That's patreon.com book riot podcast. Let's take a quick break and then we will get into it. Okay. So bury our bones in the Midnight Soil. V E Schwab this was my first time reading VE Schwab. I had just not like the pitches for the other books just hadn't been compelling to me. I just hadn't quite gotten there. I'm Not a huge fantasy reader. And then Danica months ago said, but Toxic Lesbian Vampires, y' all. So, Danica, I'm gonna toss it to you. Tell us, what is the pitch for Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil? Why were we and the rest of the Internet so excited about it?

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, I also hadn't read any of the Schwab before, so this is my first as well.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I did not realize that.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, I try to keep up with queer book news for our queer shelves and also for my own interest. So this kind of came across my desk when V. Schwab on her Instagram, announced this as the toxic lesbian vampires are coming. And I was like, that's enough for me. Like, if It's a hell of a. Obviously, I have heard great things about V. E. Schwab, but honestly, if it had been any author, I probably would have.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Stephen King.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Stephen King's Toxic Lesbian Vampires.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I'm almost sorry I said that.

[Danica Ellis]

Anyway, and that was genuinely all I had originally. And the. The blurb is very vague. I was trying to figure out how to talk about it in the newsletter, and the blurb is just, like, three women, they're vampires at different times.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Go for it.

[Danica Ellis]

And that's about all you get.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's not wrong.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. I get now why it's so bad. She does talk about, like, I read a few interviews, and she does say she thinks the ideal experience is not knowing a lot going in, which I think is true. But, yeah, it did make it kind of hard to pitch until Toxic Lesbian Vampires, and then that was all you need. We're good.

[Vanessa Diaz]

What else do we need?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It really is a great tagline. So, Vanessa, from your eyebrows going up, when Danika and I both said that we had not read VE Schwab before, I assume that you have.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I have, yeah. I'm a huge fan of the Shades of Magic series and her middle grade series. It starts with shoot. Is it Tunnel of Bones? Anyway, that's the one that's about, like, a little girl whose parents are paranormal investigators. The thing they don't know is that she actually sees ghosts. They just don't know that she actually sees them. And it takes place in, like, Edinburgh and Paris. Anyway, I am a huge fan of her writing, so I was going to read this just on the strength of that I'm a huge fan of the Invisible Life of Addie Larue, which was the other book that she really described as, like, the book that almost broke me because it's so, like, much of me on the page that she Swore she'd never write a book that took that much from her. And then she said, just kidding. I did it again, and this time it's the Toxic Lesbian Vampires. So it's like, oh, yeah. Immediately. Like, I was always going to read that. And I really love the vampire thing. But, yeah, I'm a huge fan of VE Schwab, so this was sort of like a no brainer.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So we'll tap you as the expert then. Are there hallmarks of a VE Schwab book? Like, what are you looking for? What are you excited about when you're coming to a new VE Schwab?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Definitely. I mean, I do think she just has really great, like, sentence level writing, which some folks find a little melodramatic. And I. I think that's maybe a valid critique because that can be the case. And there were even a few times where I was like, okay, come on, girl. But you're going to get. And she definitely has a knack, I think, for writing characters where she's not super concerned whether you find them likable or not. That was one of the big hallmarks of the Shades of Magic series with, I think Lila was her name. So you're kind of going in for that and she's going to explore those things all the way and give you. I will. You know, my girl is maybe not huge on the editing, on length, which is fine by me because I like a juicy read. It is a long book and this is not her first one. Again, Addie Larue is like, just as thick. So I don't even know if what I've described sounds like a sell, but it is. It's like, I know I'm getting what I'm getting with her. I know I'm going to have lots of places where I write down some sentences that I thought were really nice. And she's going to give you characters that act on their impulses without regard to whether you think the way they are acting is something to, you know, praise in any way. And I love that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that's interesting. Especially given the kinds of impulses that vampires have.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Correct?

[Danica Ellis]

Yes.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That's where I was going.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

All right, so as Danika was explaining to us, this is a book about three women who eventually are vampires. I guess we'll talk a little bit about them and try not to give any spoilers. And then at some point we will enter spoiler territory and you will be listeners on your own reconnaissance if you don't want to get spoiled. So there are three main characters we start in the 1500s with Maria, who gets married off to a viscount. She thinks that it's going to give her a better life. And he's terrible. He's really terrible. He's terrible. Being married to him is terrible. Sex with him is terrible. It's all terrible. And she meets a woman named Sabine, who is a widow who owns basically, like, an apothecary. This mysterious woman who seems to have a lot of independence. And this is, of course, very appealing to Maria, who does not wish to be trapped under her husband, literally and metaphorically. Then there's. Thank you for that, Snicker, Danica. Then there's Alice, who we meet in Boston in 2019. She has met a hot girl at a party, and then she's woken up after their encounter and things are not the same as they were before she went to sleep. And Lottie, who we meet kind of in multiple places. So Lottie is the most spoilerific of these. But Lottie is also the sort of the connective thread between some of the characters. I think they're vampires and they're lesbians. Is not an incomplete pitch.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That really does a lot of the work.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I guess we'll cut to the chase of this is an. Is it good episode. Was it good? Did y' all like it? Danica, what did you think?

[Danica Ellis]

I really liked it. Like I said, it was my first v E Schwab. I didn't know what to expect. I also didn't know what to expect the whole book. Like, when. When I say the less you know, the better, I feel like that implies there's going to be these big, shocking twists. And maybe, like, they are shocking, but I don't. I didn't think of it that way as much as it just kind of feels like it. Like, I want to say meander, but in a good way. Like, it just kind of takes different turns than I originally expected. And you're following these characters for a very long time. Like, centuries, which means.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like, centuries.

[Danica Ellis]

Yes. You can kind of live multiple lives. So I kind of looked back at it and realized is about 80% of this book prologue. But that's fine.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that's a great way. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. It just sort of unfolds. And I agree, going in, like, without much information, like, a vague synopsis will usually drive me nuts. Like, give us a little more about what to expect. But that they're connected in some way. We know from the very beginning. But, like, what the connection is going to be. Or how it will be revealed to us. But I felt like I was in good hands. I think I liked it, but didn't love it. I would say it was good, but, yeah, it's good. I would say it's good. Vanessa, where were you?

[Vanessa Diaz]

I did also kind of end in the probably strong, like, maybe not all the way love. And that's okay. Cause it was still a good time. But for reasons of. And again, even though everything I just said is also true, what happened, which is that the book, you know, she. She'll take her time. If she wants to take you on a ride, she absolutely will. And there was a portion of it where I was like, okay, so now I really do. And I think, to be fair. And I really love that Danica gave this caveat because so many people had said to me, like, the less you know, the better. I was expecting something a little bit more explosive to happen a little sooner. And that expectation, I think, will drive you a little bit mad, because, again, we're following these women for a real long time, and you don't really see that thread of commonality until pretty, pretty far into the. Where it was driving me a little bit nuts. And then once I kind of just accepted where this was gonna go, then I feel like it became a much more enjoyable experience. And then I kept on going. So I really did like it. I don't know that it's 100% my favorite, but it was a good time. And the vampire thing is just fun to see how she treats it in her hands with the whole toxicity. Because they're very toxic. Super toxic.

[Danica Ellis]

I did guess I think what's supposed to be the big twist.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Danica Ellis]

Almost possibly from the first chapter, which, honestly, I think was a better experience for me because I was not waiting for a big twist. I was just like, okay, I think this is.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yep.

[Danica Ellis]

I think that's what's happening.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I think I also did guess it, and that was part of the reason where I was like, if this is what we're going towards, like, I think I kind of know what's up. But again, once I was just sort of like, no, we're more. We're trying to just live in these women's experiences and go along for the ride of what it is like for them to go from living a regular life to now this new life and the ways in which they interpret and adjust or don't adjust to the, like, trappings of that new life. Then I. Again, I had a good time with it. But if you are expecting, like, A big ugh. Then, you know, temper that expectation.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I felt like. I mean, it's very plotty. Like a lot happens and a lot of it is just the characters going from one experience to another. But it's kind of character, like secretly character driven.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

In a way that surprised. Like, it was pleasantly surprising to me that it's like 600 pages. A lot of things are happening. We're not doing a whole lot of, like, reflection with the characters. So it doesn't feel character driven in, like, the literary fiction kind of way to me. But it was more driven by that than I expected it to be because of this, like, what you're saying. Centuries long unfolding of things. And it didn't feel to me like a book that was setting me up for a big, big reveal at the very end. Like there is a reveal of something, but by the time it happened, I think the breadcrumbs are there. I didn't feel like Schwab was expecting us to have huge exclamation points over our heads when we read it.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, no, I think that's true. I really like vampire novels that actually dive into what it would be like to live for centuries. I love the Gilda stories where we kind of just keep meeting her at different time periods and different places and say, like, you literally do have basically different lives because especially if you're going to be young forever, like, you could. You can do so much in those hundreds of years. So I liked that aspect of this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Let's maybe take the women one by one and talk about them as a way to sort of get into this. So Maria is the first one that we meet. And I think here we're going to enter spoiler territory listeners. So if you don't want to.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I can't keep doing that.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, it's pretty tough.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like the person with the thing anyway.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Danica Ellis]

Right. There are like. I can't even use names necessarily.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There aren't like, a whole lot of big things to be spoiled here. But we're going to talk in detail about the book. So Maria is the first character that we meet. She's the one who gets married off to the terrible Viscount. And she meets Sabine, the woman who runs the apothecary tldr. Sabine is a vampire and tells her all about how the two. This is like one of the recurring themes is that these women who have. Who are dead but are living forever as. As you know, vampires have freedom that real, live, human women don't have under the thumbs of patriarchy. And expectations of heterosexuality. And Sabine tells Maria that two kinds of women have leave to wander through the this world alone and unmolested. Nuns and widows. And Sabine is presenting herself as a widow, but we find out that she is a vampire because she offers to turn Maria. And the thing that happens then is Maria wakes up a vampire, like, has this hunger. Sabine invites Maria to drink from her, and Maria is so hungry that she drains Sabine. Sabine is dead. So now Maria is.

[Danica Ellis]

I. That's probably the most surprising thing. That was the most shocking twist. And it's very early on.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes, I agree.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That. Like, that Maria just has no idea what's happening. And.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And so then she, like, she goes outside, but the sun hurts her. She feels this hunger, and she doesn't know what to go do about it. And I haven't read a ton. Like, I've read some vampire books, but not a ton of them. So I was curious for y' all. This was the first time I encountered someone who has been turned into a vampire who doesn't know that that's what they've been turned into.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I absolutely, like, screamed in my car because I was listening to this on audio. When she killed off Sabine, I was like, you just killed the source of the knowledge. Because she wasn't gonna be able to tell her all the things. And then, sure enough. Yeah. I don't know whether I have spent a lot of time with a book where the person didn't know or didn't find out immediately, you know, five minutes later, sort of thing. And she was figuring it out on the go because the person who turned her was gone. And now she was having to figure out what all of this means for her physical as well as future life. Yeah, yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Because that's the usual story beat, is someone gets turned into a vampire. The vampire who turned them is like, let me show you the ways.

[Danica Ellis]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And that Schwab just sort of turned that on its head. So, Danica, that was most surprising to you as well.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, yeah. And I think, in retrospect, it makes sense because she is such an independent character, and you continue to see that of. She was. One of the interviews I read with V. Schwab, she was talking about she's a character who every time she is, like, put in a box, she picks the lock. Like, she's just continually being like, okay, how do I get my way out of this way? Like, she's, you know, trying to escape her small town. So she gets married to this guy. It turns out this guy is Just another different prison. So she figures out a way out of that. And I can totally see how for her, like, I don't think it was conscious necessarily, but for her, it would mean, like, you are now beholden to this person.

[Vanessa Diaz]

You don't own me.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. And I think she would rather be independent with no guidance, no knowledge, than to feel like she is just trading another one of these relationships where she's dependent on someone else yet again.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. I mean, she does throughout the whole book. River Braid that this means to be free. Right. Which is what's being said to her. But she has. Yeah. And show to her freedom at all costs, whether conscious or not. I totally agree that that does characteristically make sense.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. It also just gave me pause to be like, when did vampire lore enter culture?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So, you know, did a little googling. Like, Dracula is published in 1897. And before that, vampire lore sort of in European culture, like the same 17th and 18th centuries, but we're in the 16th century here. It's 15 something with Maria. So, like, she wakes up a vampire, and stories about vampires have not, like, permeated storytelling culture at that point. So just no clue. And she goes decades, if not centuries before she meets other vampires and they tell her what she is and, like, give her the whole history, which I thought was a really fun choice in a vampire story. And, like, a nice departure from the. Let me show you the ways.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Danica Ellis]

Some of my favorite parts were these other vampire characters who are just side characters, because I think we spend so long with Sabine that you really get this idea of, like, this is what a vampire is. It's Sabine. But then she starts to meet other vampires, and you're like, oh, there's actually a lot of ways to do this, and hers is not necessarily the best way. And they all feel, like, real. Like they feel well rounded, even if they're only on the page for a little bit. It feels like you could read the story of this other character and they would completely hold up to that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I totally agree. And you just switched into calling Marie Sabine, so.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. So we did say at the top of Rebecca did that you know the name of the woman, the widow, that she originally goes to. Again, talking about, like, always wanting to find a way of freedom. She goes to her because she wants to be, like, I don't want to be pregnant. Help me not to be pregnant. That will be a prison that I'm not ready for. And her name is Sabine. And when she gets rid of again, the person, she decides that part of her freedom is reinvention and that she's no longer going to be called Maria, but instead Sabine. So when Janik was calling her Sabine, it's because that is the identity that she now assumes her name is Sabine for the rest of the book.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Which I also thought was interesting. Like a whole new. You don't just have this completely new existence, but a new name, a new way to make. Move through the world. And maybe drawing on. I think she is trying to channel that kind of mystique and power that she saw in Sabine, because one of the very first scenes in the book is when Maria is a child and she comes across Sabine in a field near their town and just thinks that she is beautiful and mysterious and has no idea anything about her, and then meets her decades later. And it's like, you look the same. What's going on here? Like, this is how vampires work.

[Vanessa Diaz]

But this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That theme of freedom, like, Maria, I think at one point is discussing a potential victim and a man that doesn't realize that, or he thinks that she's the damsel, not the danger. And there is a lot of this, not just repetition in the story about what it means for women to be trapped or to try to seek freedom. Like the extremes you would have to go to in the variation, like the variations of this world to be free, but the ways that women are perceived and how she's really fighting against that, wanting to be perceived, or at least knowing for herself that she is not the way that people perceive her. She's much more. She's much more dangerous than this fancy woman. She appears to be.

[Danica Ellis]

Something that. I kind of changed my mind about the book is that early on I was like, okay, I see how we're doing, like a feminist flipping of the. Yeah, that predator prey thing she talks about several times. And there is one point in the novel where several characters are like, I'm. I'm gonna attack these, like, awful men as sort of a revenge moment, which is fine. But I. As it went on, I realized, like, oh, that's not. That's not really what's happening here. Like, obviously, she is talking about feminist themes and how these women are trapped in their circumstances and go to these lengths. But these are not, like, righteous characters, you know, they are. They're toxic. They live up to it. They make some. Some bad choices. And definitely in the body count, it is not just terrible men who are.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that, because Maria does think about, like, a feminist revenge approach, basically, of, like, she'll just kill bad men. And then later on, Alice, one of our other characters, has a moment that's basically like a contemplation of Dexter. Like, what if I just did the thing like Dexter, but lesbian vampires, and we're just going to kill bad men? And it is so much more complex than that because they're driven by this feminist rage, but also just by this hunger that's. That doesn't discern at all.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, Lottie has a lot of that. I actually really liked that because it's really easy to. So again, spoilers here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Let's talk about Lottie next. Alice comes second in the book, but I think Lottie's relationship with Sabine because.

[Vanessa Diaz]

She connects both of these characters. Yeah. So Lottie is the vampire that Rebecca alluded to earlier, who essentially seduces our second character, Alice, at a party. So again, they hook up. Then else wakes up in the morning, is like, something is different. Oh, my gosh. I. And then, you know, connecting lots of different pieces is like, hey, I have no heartbeat. I'm dead. Oh, my gosh, Lottie turned me. I must find this person and, like, you know, go yell at her for what she did to me. That takes a while. And we eventually find out that it was not Lottie that turned her, it was Sabine. And then we flash way back and get the story of how Lottie and Sabine came to be, and we find out that they were basically a couple. Like, Sabine turned her. She also was facing this like she was at that point in society where, you know, she had, like, a coming out season and she realized that she had feelings for a friend of hers who did not reciprocate those feelings or at least didn't want to act on them. And she's like, what do I want to do? I don't want to marry a man. She's like, I got an option for you. And then, boom, right? They turn. And so we get all of Lottie's backstory, and we do see that Lottie is also attempting that same idea of, like, well, what if I only go after, like, the men that deserve it? And this kind of humanitarian thing that reminded me a little bit of, like, the Twilight concept where they were like, we're vegetarians because we only feed on animals. Yeah. Not like people. But especially the further into it you get and you realize that she has this string of women who are all being spoiler taken out by a very jealous Sabine who, when she decides to leave Sabine, when she realizes Sabine is out of control in her kills, tries to get away from her. But Sabine comes out of nowhere every single time. Tracks her down through all the corners of the earth. And she, you know, keeps trying to, quote, unquote, protect these women until somebody actually, like, says it point blank. Like, are you really. What. What is your priority here? Because you could just stop sleeping with these women. You still have your cake and eat it, too. And I loved that examination because for a bit there, I think I was also like, oh, Lord, he's trying to do this. Like, is. I don't know if the word humanitarian here is correct, but, like, ethically, there you go. And then when she pointed at the, like, no, not really. Like, you're. You're telling yourself that, but ultimately, you're still wanting to have your cake and eat it, too, because you know Sabine's coming for them. You're just kind of trying to absolve yourself of that guilt. And I loved that chapter.

[Danica Ellis]

I thought hers was the most interesting character, for sure. I agree, because of. And I didn't pick up on it fully until near the end of how she feels like such an ethical character when we're first hearing about, you know, she's turned into a vampire. And even though she has all this hunger, she's horrified by what Sabine is doing. She doesn't want to feed. She wants to find a way to, like, do this in an ethical way. And at first I'm like, oh, yeah, she's really showing that this is, you know, you can approach this in a different way. But then, yeah, you start to think, not just that she is putting these women in danger, because at a point, it's like, okay, if you're living hundreds of years and you can't have any contact with anyone, like, that's going to be pretty tough, though. Do you need to live hundreds and hundreds more years while you're putting people in? But also, specifically, she is so scarred by watching Sabine become monstrous over time that she doesn't want to do that to anyone else, which means she won't turn anyone into a vampire just fine. Except that when Sabine does it, she starts killing them because she doesn't want them to watch her become monstrous. But is that an ethical correct?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Exactly. That was the part that I was like, oh, you got me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I really appreciated how dedicated Schwab is in this to, like, all roads lead to being monstrous.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Then, like, as I think it's Mateo, who's the really old vampire, like, first takes the new Sabine under his wing, and he tells her, like, that this eats away at your humanity. Over time. And he is much older than she is, and she watches him, like, decline into that place of just sort of, like, real sort of monstrous hunger where he's not following his own rules anymore. And then we watch Sabine do that. Lottie watches Sabine go over that journey. But, like, Lottie is aging centuries at the same time, and maybe is unaware that she is also. Like, these pieces of her are getting chipped away. But we get to watch it happen. And I really appreciated that. That it was like, no. Kind of. No matter what you do here, you're a vampire, and this is an unsatisfiable hunger. So you can either, like, try to eat as little as possible, like, kill as little as possible, but you're still going to be hungry.

[Danica Ellis]

So hungry that you are mortal. But even though you're living centuries, you do have mortality of some kind. One thing I want to ask you two that I was curious is that Lottie says, oh, I've watched Sabine become this other. She's a whole other person now. And I. You know, I can't. I can't see the woman I fell in love with. But we know that Sabine was pretty terrible before she met Lottie. Like, we seen Sabine wipe out big groups of people just. Just for the fun of it. Right.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like, just.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's like a Tarantino scene.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. So did you notice, like, obviously she has some of those kind of blackout moments where she is. She seems, like, very weird, but in terms of actual ethical. Because the way Lottie tells it, Sabine has become unethical in a way she can't stand behind anymore. Do you think that's true, or do you think that's something that she's kind of telling herself about why she was in that relationship in the first place?

[Vanessa Diaz]

I think there were always signs because I'm. And, you know, some of this is a little blurry for me now because it's been a bit since I read it. But, you know, from the very beginning, will say little stuff. Some people say stuff to Lottie that, you know, aren't I a nut? Like, little things like that. Right. Even if it's just to go hang out with new vampires, like, that's it. You know, like, doesn't. There's little signs to me there that, like, oh, there was some possession. I think she was just sort of, like, caught up in the glamour of it. That is also, though, easy to say because we get the full behind the scenes of how terrible she's been. So, like, maybe it's a little bit of both, and maybe she's just so enamored with the idea of, like, getting to be with this woman that she's, you know, idolized in this way that she just sort of willfully ignores. I don't know. I think there were signs of. I don't know, that she saw the whole thing.

[Danica Ellis]

I think Sabine becomes more abusive to Lottie over time.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Absolutely.

[Danica Ellis]

And I think that maybe Lottie interprets that as her personality changing, whereas I think that's a very common. This was.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, you're right.

[Danica Ellis]

Interesting aspect is that, like, there's this abusive relationship that is both fantastical and really real.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I think that's a great question, Danica. I think, like, the breadcrumbs of Sabine becoming an abusive partner are there from the very beginning.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But I haven't put it together until right now. But the way you asked the question is making it really come together for me. Like, I think it unfolds in the way that abusive relationships often unfold, that there are little things at the beginning, but that the partner doesn't see them as part of a pattern or an indicator that things will get worse as they go on. And, yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Know, she's being isolated. Right. That's something that I. I just. I was thinking for myself, like, oh, she isolated her, but she didn't realize she was being isolated until the opportunity to meet with other vampires presented itself. And she's like, wait, I thought you said there were none of us.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right.

[Vanessa Diaz]

But, like, I knew that.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And like, in. In human relationships, that might unfold over, like, weeks or months or years, but in theirs, it unfolds over decades and centuries.

[Danica Ellis]

Like, that's a lot longer from the beginning. You know, Sabine is like, well, you're. You're different. You're special. I do this. Yeah, because you're so special. Which, again, is like, a very common abuse tactic.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And we get to see, like, I thought the scenes at these, like, Regency era balls where Sabine is seducing Lottie were some of the most fun in the book. Like, that she spots her across the room and goes to talk to her. And Lottie just sees Sabine as this glamorous, beautiful woman who is also presenting herself as a widow so she doesn't have to participate in the shenanigans of, like, trying to find a husband, but that Lottie sees Sabina, someone who can teach her something. And there's this, like, attraction and chemistry between them that they're not allowed to name if they're even fully aware that that's a thing you could name. Because of the time period that they're in. But watching that unfold was both, like, really exciting and fun and also just kind of like you're reading it with your hands over your face because you know that this is not going to go well for Lottie, and she. She thinks this whole new world is opening up for her.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, you get this, like, double view of Sabine where you've seen her with her little literal, like, collection of. Of the trinkets. You know, she, by that point, is specifically preying on only women because they taste better. So she is like, specifically just murdering innocent women just for the fun of it and is taking these trophies and wearing them. And so we know that she is this monstrous figure. But then we're through Lottie's eyes where she is this, like, sophisticated and kind, like, is taking her under her wing. And we've seen her do the same seduction process so many times, but usually she just immediately kills them after. Yeah, yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And that there's even a moment late in the book where Schwab asks overtly, like, why did Lottie stay in this relationship? And kind of lingers on, like, why do people stay in abusive relationships? I thought was such an interesting choice. Like, there's a lot going on here that's not just vampire stuff.

[Danica Ellis]

I actually have that quote. I included it in my review, which may not stay the same because it's an arc, but, yeah, that stood out to me, too, where it says, why does Charlotte stay? That is like asking, why stay inside a house on fire? Easy to say when you're standing on the street a safe distance from the flames. Harder when you're still inside, convinced you can douse the blaze before it spreads or rushing room to room trying to save what you love before it burns. So good.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, that was good. I was trying to find. I think I wrote down that same sentence. I can't find it. But, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a couple of sounds like, oh, you. There's.

[Danica Ellis]

There's that one. The other one that really, like, punched me in the. Like, I had to stop reading and just, like, look at the ceiling for a minute was when she's in the. When she talks to Jocelyn in the garden. That scene is incredible. And her saying, I hope you found someone brave enough to love you just like that one that. I love that scene so much because she, Jocelyn think, has been, like, essentially hallucinating her for years as she is aged and Lottie has not. So she doesn't realize that Lottie is actually literally there looking like she hasn't aged a day because why would you think that was real? They have that whole conversation.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, yeah, that one got me too.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's interesting hearing about what Vanessa, you were saying at the top of the show that this thing where characters really exist in the gray area is kind of a Schwab signature who's like, no one here is really good and no one here is purely bad. No either. You know, like, we do see these. Like, we see Sabine carry out this seduction. And we know that there's a lot of manipulation and like, not great intentions, but also some really human desire that drives that. Like she's lonely and wants companionship. And also, I think on a level believes that she's offering Lottie a freedom of a kind in the same way that the original Sabine believed that she was offering her freedom. And like, I. I think Schwab is really trying to get at, like the real between a rock and a hard placeness of being a woman in the world, being a queer person in the world, especially at various points in history. And. And I think, like, I know, Vanessa, you've seen Sinners a bunch of times now. I've seen Sinners.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I was going to bring it up.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

A bunch of times now. Danica, have you seen Sinners yet? I haven't yet.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, Danica, I'm gonna owe you a ticket price.

[Danica Ellis]

Oh, God, I need a follow up of.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Just seriously, Comparison is interesting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Let's talk about that for a second. It's just interesting to have both of these stories at the same time.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. Especially when Sinners is such a. I feel like I never do this justice when I try to talk about it, but it is a vampire movie. And I feel like there's a lot of people who are like, oh, I don't know if I want to see it because of vampires. And I'm like, no, you still have to go for it because it is allegory in a way that you are not prepared for. There are levels, frankly, there are levels that even as a non black person, I probably don't understand and that I've started to by digesting a lot of media about it. But it is such an interesting juxtaposition because these vampires are obviously a also white people in this particular book or movie. And the way that they go after black folks and try not to spoil the gist of that movie either, because I don't know if that's what we're doing. But that vampiric depiction is just so different from what we get with these women. Because the women are, for very different motivations, potentially using it as a form of freedom. Whereas on the other side, it is like a meditation on cultural appropriation on, like, power. On. Again, I feel like my words, like, fail me here, but seeing those two. And again, I did them, like, a lot in conjunction. Like, I watched the movie two or three times, and the time that I read this book was just so interesting to, like, go back and forth between the two and go, what? A different representation of vampirism, but, like.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Similar arguments get made. One of the white vampires in the Sinners tells multiple black characters, like, this is the way to freedom. Like, you will fellowship and love, right? Yeah, Fellowship and love. If you let us turn you, like, you can be with your friends and family forever. You won't be, like, subject to the kind of subjugation that you experience as a black person in the south in the early 1900s. And it's a similar pitch to what, like, the. The older women, like, the mentor figures are offering the younger women in Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil. But it feels like the intentions are purer in the book in what Schwab is doing, where it's like, it's a tool of manipulation. In Sinners, I felt like, ooh, that's good.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That's juicy.

[Danica Ellis]

Well, it's interesting because to add another layer on it, like, we're talking about race and gender, is that another very common vampire, especially, you know, Carmilla, those sort of queer vampires? Like, there is this mythology around the queer vampire because, you know, they're converting people, they're turning people. They can't. They're not having babies. Like, vampires usually aren't reproducing in that way. So they reproduce by turning people. And so that's like another layer onto the. The vampire. Like, I. I always find it so interesting what monsters symbolize and how they can be read as so many different things, just depending on what our current.

[Vanessa Diaz]

We define as monsters. Yeah, exactly.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And nobody really gets the judgment of, like, full monstrosity here, which I appreciated that it is very. These characters are allowed to be messy. Like, Schwab is not endorsing the toxic behavior, but she's also not coming down on the page as, like, it just is. Right.

[Danica Ellis]

Well, I think you were talking about it earlier, Vanessa, about V. Schwab saying that this is a very vulnerable book that has characters that are inspired by. Are autobiographical. And in one of these interviews, she talks about Sabine as her most autobiographical character, which I think is so interesting, because if anyone is a monster, this is a bean.

[Vanessa Diaz]

It be sad. Yeah.

[Danica Ellis]

But it is this, like, representation of. Of hunger and desire that women are expected to not have and to suppress at all costs. You're not supposed to be ambitious. You're not supposed to, you know, you're not really supposed to want for anything. You're supposed to just be content with, you know, whatever you're given.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Like, Maria, in those opening pages, you're just supposed to, like, with literal desire, be fine with your husband, like, climbing on top of you and never having any consideration for your experience or pleasure.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And when she has the audacity to ask about it, which is. Yeah, it's just not good.

[Danica Ellis]

I love that Maria, even, like, as. As a human, even as a child, is defined by that hunger. Like, that image of her, you know, they didn't have a lot of food, so she never felt like she was full. And that image of her sucking on the cherry seed for hours because it was like, almost like eating, like, that is just who she is through this entire book.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Is she cherry juice? Yeah, that was.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Let's turn, I guess, to Alice. We haven't talked about Alice, who could.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Be set up as. Why am I in it?

[Danica Ellis]

Why am I in that?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Why help. Y' all can't see me, but I'm looking around frantically.

[Danica Ellis]

Poor Alice. Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Alice just, again, spends most. Okay, I actually want to know how y' all feel about this, because, again, spoilers. But we know all along we're getting flashbacks to Alice's life. We know Alice is Scottish and she is attending an I. I don't know if we know that. It's Ivy League. Anyway. We know she's attending a school, a university in the States.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

She's in school in Boston. It's fancy.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yes, exactly. And we're getting her backstory, and we realized that she was really close to her sister. And this. I also kind of guessed in the beginning that we're, like, making our way towards finding out, like, how is it that she got from being in Scotland with the sister to, like, now in Boston? And then again, she gets turned. The sister arc, who we eventually find out towards the very, very, very end of the book, essentially left kind of out of nowhere, at least in Alice's perspective. Even though Alice expected to be able to, like, go off, they were going to go off together.

[Danica Ellis]

Right.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And, like, go do life on their terms. But the sister ends up dying. Right. The interpretation is, like, dying by suicide, basically. And that's. I couldn't quite connect how that storyline fit into this standpoint.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

My biggest quibble was also, like, every time the Alice chapters diverted into Alice's memories and stuff with her sister, that was. Those are the only moments that I really wanted to tune out. But, Danika, it sounds like you have an insight maybe that we're waiting for.

[Danica Ellis]

Well, yeah, this was when I said, like, it wasn't what I expected to be, is that when I got to the end, I was like, oh, of course this has been a story about grief the whole time. Like, of course this is a vampire novel that's about death and it's about grief. And in about, like. I think what I said in my review was that it's about loving someone who can't stop running towards their own grave. Because Catty is such an interesting character. Because Catty is grieving, Catty is overcome.

[Vanessa Diaz]

This is.

[Danica Ellis]

The sister is overcome by grief because their mother died and Alice was kind of too young to even really remember her mother. But Caddy does, and she does not move on in any way. She is so mired in her grief and so angry and, like, refuses anything, any kind of, you know, support anyone who's trying to make a connection. You know, this is the spy is the stepmom. Yeah, exactly. Who, like, very carefully is trying to build this relationship and is really, by what we learned from Alice, at least, is really trying her very best to reach out to Caddy and Alice, who's constantly running after her and trying to reach out to her and have that relationship. And Catty is so determined not to. And yeah, to me, she was almost like a vampire character in herself or definitely, you know, connected to grief and death because it's. Yeah, it's so hard to have a relationship with someone who is so hurt and so consumed in their own anger that they can't, you know, connect to anyone else. And the moment where you realize that Caddy. Alice is, like, upset that Caddy left before when they're supposed to be on this adventure together and that Catty's starting this adventure without her and then realizing at the end that she never actually went anywhere. Like, she's been essentially down the road a town away. Yeah. The entire time and just completely self destructing. Like, to me, that was. In retrospect, that was the story. It was the story of Alice and Catty and everything else.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Kind of interesting information.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. Because I definitely that's.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's helpful because I think in. In a way, all of the other storylines are about how there's no escaping from pain. Like, this proposition is. It's painful to be A woman. It's painful to be queer. Let me make you a vampire, and you can find freedom. But it's also painful then to be a vampire.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, you have to kill people, and that's horrifying. You're lonely for centuries, and that's difficult. You gradually become a monster, and you might be aware of, like, the pieces, like, the last shreds of your humanity falling away. You can't exist and have those kinds of connections that there's no. There really is no escaping from this human experience. Even if you get yourself out of humanity.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yep.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. You can get the power. You want it in time, and it still doesn't make a difference.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. It's about mortality. Like, no matter what you do, you are mortal. Even when they go to these great lengths to become vampires and live for centuries, you, in the end, are mortal and will have to face death. Because Alice is, like, trying to reinvent herself partly to try to leave both her mother and Catty's deaths behind her, to try to not be living in the shadow of those deaths all the time. And then she wakes up dead. Like, that is. Her story is that caddy died at 17.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That's.

[Danica Ellis]

Alice has, like, just turned 18, and she dies, and she. It's just like, her. Her whole life, it's just about death. And how do you. How do you. How do you live with death? And how do you, like, accept grief without it completely overtaking you, like it does with Caddy?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's a good thing you're here today, Danica.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. Like, why?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I'm still thinking about that line about chasing someone who can't stop running to their own grave.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Have you thought about being a writer?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Super smart. Yeah, definitely.

[Danica Ellis]

That's what you pay me for. Great.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I definitely. I actually found this part funny, which is not meant to be funny, but is that, you know, we're getting. Lottie is telling us at one point like this, when we find out that it wasn't Lottie that turned Alice. She confronts her. She finds her, tracks her down, confronts her. And then she says, let me tell you the story. I thought it was super hilarious that instead of just, like, taking us all the way through, they'll stop. Or they each stop would stop and, like, pan over to Alice for a second, just for Alice to be like, are you still talking?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Danica Ellis]

Sorry for you.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. But, like, that was kind of the only purpose of that little interruption. Is she just basically like, you're still. You're still. I'm still dead. And then we Go right back. And we weren't really getting a whole. I just thought that. I don't know if that was done on purpose, but it made me laugh a lot.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It is funny.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And, like, kind of pointedly just to be like, are you done?

[Danica Ellis]

Do you have to describe all the gowns?

[Vanessa Diaz]

I get it. All the gowns, all the sexy times. Like my dead.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So speaking of all the sexy times, this book was not as sexy as I expected.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Correct. That's what I was about to say. It's actually very closed door, which I expected it to be a total romp. And I. It's not as much as I expected.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Are the other VE Schwab books sexy Shades of magic?

[Vanessa Diaz]

I don't think was. In that way. And then, let's see. Addie Larue. God, it's been a while. And obviously the kids books are not. Yeah, I don't know that they were, but I just thought that the way this one was painted, that it was gonna be. And that could just be me not remembering. It's possible. But yeah, I just. The way it was billed. And again, not that we even knew a lot about it, but I just expected it to go for broke, especially because there is a. And I can't remember the name of it, but there's a Netflix series that VE Schwab produced that unfortunately did not get really great reviews, and so it was canceled after one season. But I feel like that was ostensibly very sexy, even though it, like, took place, I think, at a high school, et cetera. So I don't know. I just thought she was in her, like, sexy vampire era. And then we got. There was sex, but it was so much more closed door than I was expecting. Very, like, euphemistic.

[Danica Ellis]

There are some open door moments, though.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, no, there are. There are. You're right.

[Danica Ellis]

I wouldn't go into this expecting there to be. Yeah, no, you're right. Entirely closed door.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it wasn't. And maybe my brain is just melted because I had to read 4th Wing.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Earlier this year by comparison.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, actually, I think my brain is probably melted by the. The expectations of the Romantasy moment, since this is coming out in the Big Romantasy moment. This is certainly not a Romantasy book, but it's packaged kind of similarly to some of the Big Romantasy books. The, like, the dark colors. There's a little foiling in the COVID It didn't have spreadges, which I was surprised by. And apparently I say spreadges unironically.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Now you've come over.

[Danica Ellis]

I Thought it was more like gothic was my expectation.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. If I had to describe it to someone, I would say gothic. Now.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Now, having read it, I think that's a good description and.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, matches the vibes. Including that, like, there is some sexy moments, but it's not like you're super sexy. That's what I would expect from it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think, because there was so much, like, awakening in this, I wanted it to be a little spicier on the page about, like, this is exciting for these women that they're discovering this and.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Pleasure on their terms.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And. And how powerful that is to realize that, like, this. This little thing that maybe you've had a hint of about yourself is real and other people feel it and it's available to you in some way. And. Oh, my God. And those. Those, like, revelatory moments are really fun on the page. But I was just. I was surprised. I was expecting just more sexy times. More sexy times on the page. And it. I don't. This book, at a lot of moments, felt like it could have been advanced YA to me rather than adults. I wanted to ask you all about what you feel about categorization for it here.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Danica Ellis]

I didn't think that didn't cross my mind, the ya.

[Vanessa Diaz]

It did to me for a second, but. Yeah, go ahead, Danica.

[Danica Ellis]

I think maybe in the very first Alice chapters, because it is just like just going to university and, you know, going to parties and that sort of thing. But once we got into the 1500s and 1800s, it didn't feel like a lot of.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That's what I was gonna say. Like, fair or not, the fact that we go into these old, you know, into so long ago. But then again, the Twilight effect. I just kept comparing it to the fact that, like, what Twilight was. Even though we were dealing with, obviously, a character who was very, very old. But there was a piece of me now that I had kind of gone to the YA place and then went, no, but this person is, like, literal centuries old. Like, we're fine to be in the adult place. Like, I. Yeah, I kind of vacillated a little bit.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But, yeah, I think for me, it was in the writing that, like, one of the things I'm struggling with in adult fiction in general right now is I feel like a lot of authors are being very overt in places I would like them to be subtle and they're like, the repetition of women aren't free and this is a way to freedom. Queer people aren't free, and this is A way to like that repetition.

[Vanessa Diaz]

My girl sometimes does not edit.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Like, maybe a little young for me. And then. And for as many of, like, the great sentences like the ones y' all have quoted so far, there were also things.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Also, a lot of the world will.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Try to make you small, and it will tell you to be modest and meek, and you should go boldly instead. And, like, absolutely, I endorse that message. But also, like, stating it so plainly feels like it's intended for a younger reader.

[Danica Ellis]

I think that's what I was. Yeah. Kind of talking about where early on, I was like, okay, we got it. They think, yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yes.

[Danica Ellis]

But then. Because it sort of undermines that later, I. I kind of.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Danica Ellis]

You know, was able to let that go. I would love to talk about the ending, because the ending was also not.

[Vanessa Diaz]

What I would like to talk about the ending. And then I'm gonna be cranky after we talk about the ending about something. But let's go to the ending first. I would just like to say we got to a point where, like, a thing happened, and out loud, I went, just kill her. And then she did, and it was great. I literally was like, oh, look, Danika.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What about the ending are you wanting to talk about? Please.

[Danica Ellis]

Well, okay. One. One small complaint I will lodge before we talk about the ending is that I did think it was, like, a little too. Not trusting us as a reader. That was like, remember how I've been keeping grave dirt in my necklace?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yes.

[Danica Ellis]

Because you've described it multiple times. You don't need to describe it.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Chekhov's grave dirt out loud.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I literally went, oh, f. Off. Like I did when I read that part. Come on.

[Danica Ellis]

It would have been a great reveal if everything. It had been the same, because it's been mentioned a few times. Pretty. Like, not in a super overt way, but that you didn't mention it again right before.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. You didn't need to bust the PowerPoint out. I was paying attention.

[Danica Ellis]

But other than that, just. It ending with Alice killing both of them, I was not expecting. And it was sort of, for me, like, it happened pretty quickly that I realized, like, oh, Lottie is not the righteous character she thinks she is.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I loved this. And then.

[Danica Ellis]

Then that she's killed. And I, like, I think at the time of reading it, I wasn't quite sure, but looking back, I think it's pretty obvious that Lottie was going to kill Alice after 100% Alice killed Sabine. Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I felt really silly for buying. And this is just because I don't know. I was distracted also, but she literally was like, yeah. And by the way, Alice, if you kill your maker, you go back to being alive.

[Danica Ellis]

And I knew she was lying.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And of course she is.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Right. But for the second, I went, oh, that's weird. Why would you. Oh, okay. Ve. Like, that is. I was so submerged in story that I was like, oh, she's going there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was like, alice, look alive. Like, we know better than this.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. No, I reacted 30 seconds later, like, kill her. Make her like three seconds after.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Exactly. That's always like, hello. I felt silly, but again, I was very much as soon. As soon as I. You figured out, you know, I mean, again, we saw this coming at this point, but when she kills her and is like, well, I'm still dead. Alice is still dead. And, you know, looks over Lottie's like, I know, Sorry. I just kind of knew myself because of, like, this promise. And I literally went, just kill her. Just kill her already. When Alice is like, say less.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. Here really what I blame Lottie for the. The most is her killing the vampires that Sabine made.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Danica Ellis]

But that moment, I couldn't even really blame her because she is like, Sabine is just going to continue to do this.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Danica Ellis]

For centuries. And if it wasn't like, you know, even if Lottie just was like, I'm just gonna kill myself.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like, yeah.

[Danica Ellis]

Sabine's probably still gonna.

[Vanessa Diaz]

She'd still leave her. Untrue.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. So it. It makes. Makes sense, but it's not forgiving. It's just that messiness that makes these characters.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

V. What's your complaint? Let's hear the cranky.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I just. Okay. I did this on audio. It just worked better for my schedule. And the audio narrators, like, ostensibly, are really talented. They include. I can't remember the third one right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Now, but ostensibly, really talented means that something great is about to happen.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Because, again, it's Julia Whelan, who is like audiobook narrator royalty at this point, and then Katie Leung, who is the Scottish actress who played Cho Chang in the Harry Potter books. And I cannot remember the name of the third one, but I've also read, like, again, good, good work. I am so sick and tired. You know, Maria, for we didn't say this as much, but Maria Sabine is Spanish. Like, she is born in Spain in the 16th century, and for a lot of it is speaking in either in Spanish or saying Spanish words. They chose people who obviously don't speak Spanish. And I'm not trying to pretend like I know what Spanish in 16th century Spain sounded like. But literally, it was like this when they were talking. And I am not exaggerating even a little bit. Like, it was where I was like, shut the f. Like, I. Jamie messaged me, like, are you listening to the V E Schwa book? And I just waited for the messages to pour in. And she was like, what is happening? Like. Cause it was. And then every one of the narrators, to be fair, it is mostly Julia Whelan that had to do the. Cause she's the one who voices Maria Sabine. But then Katie Long, who has a very thick and beautiful Scottish accent. And then this other woman who is, I think, English, also had to do, like, Sabine voice at times.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, God.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And it was just very weird the whole time where it was always a little bit like this. And I was like. Even when she was talking about something super boring, I was like, what are we doing? You could have just at least for the person who voiced her, gotten someone who speaks Spanish. Like, it's not that hard. Where was Frankie Corzo? Like, call, call. There's a lot of other women that could have done it. It was so distracting to the point where it almost stopped and yeeted my phone.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, man. That.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, exaggerated.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Your version of that sounds like Hank Azaria doing Agador Spartan Cage.

[Vanessa Diaz]

What I'm thinking of. I'm not even kidding. That is. It was that and this other woman. Anyway, it doesn't matter who they sound like. But it was so forced. And then also, they weren't pronouncing certain words right. And, like, I just get really cranky about that kind of thing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's so valid.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Schwab is a big name, right? It's not that she would have maybe clocked that, but that's part of the reason why when you're writing outside of your own experience, you need to do a little research. Like, she has the clout to have been able to. But, like.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Anyway, it was. I really, really need you to both promise me that you're going to go find out a sample of this, because I need you to hear it. And then call me back and be like, you weren't exaggerating.

[Danica Ellis]

Liked it as much as you did from listening to that. Because I would find it very difficult to.

[Vanessa Diaz]

If it wasn't for the fact that I had a wild travel schedule on this time, I would have gone because it was that distracting where I want. It actively made me angry because it isn't just a little. You know, they had kind of done this and. But ultimately. Okay, fine. But I'M like, girl, you couldn't have, like, listened to some Penelope Cruz or something and gotten to, like, a better arrival? It was so forced.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I feel like you have a good, justifiable, strongly worded email in you about this.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I just. Anyway, it really. What I would like to say, I guess, basically is that if you're going into this and you are an audiobook listener, either kind of just prepared to have to get over that part or maybe switch to print because it is very distracting and how, again, it's not just like, pronunciations and stuff, because I could maybe get over that, but it is this really exaggerated character that they give her that, like, takes you out of it in. Yeah, it, it, it. That's, I think, also one of the reasons why I landed at, like, not love. Because I was like, what would we.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's too bad.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Danica Ellis]

That's a strange choice because obviously it should have gone to a narrator who can speak Spanish. But if you weren't going to like, her being from Spain doesn't really. At least when I remember right. So you could. If you weren't going to do the right thing, you could at least do the less wrong thing and just play it straight.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Everybody, like, for most of the time, like, for me in Spanish, I don't necessarily need you. You to say that some. Like, I don't need you to say tortilla, but I need you to say tortilla and not like tortilla.

[Danica Ellis]

Right.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like, as long as you have, like, the phonetics of it that you're kind of trying.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Don't be the great British Bake Offs Mexican food episode. Like, that's.

[Vanessa Diaz]

We don't have time for the rage that I'm about to feel. So we're gonna move on from Taco. But I've never been so offended in my life anyway. You know, like, you don't have to get it perfect. This is so funny because my first piece ever for Book Riot, like, when I was just a wee contributor, was specifically about representation in audiobooks because I was so sick of hearing people narrate. Books either didn't speak Spanish or that did. And then they clearly just weren't checking them on the pronunciations of some very basic Spanish words. And it was like, we can do better.

[Danica Ellis]

Much worse. Like, it's gotten narrow. They.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yes.

[Danica Ellis]

They used to not, like, even think about hiring narrators based on the characters or the writer voice. And I thought we were doing better. But, like, all things, apparently, we're regressing.

[Vanessa Diaz]

It just sort of feels like they Kind of chose to go again because Julia Whelan, for those who don't know, is a little bit of a big stage audiobook narrator. And I totally understand that. But again, if she had just at least delivered it a little bit more like this, where she was talking in Spanish accent. But instead, again, it was this weird where I'm like, I literally did this. Y' all can't see me, but I just did, like, a jump scare. Cause I was like, what is happening? It was, like, a little bit Transylvanian, a little bit Spanish, a little bit smoky in a way that it didn't need to be.

[Danica Ellis]

Cartoon crone.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And keep in mind, she's, you know, a really young girl. Like, I don't know. It just really. Again, it will take you out because the rest of us, she'll be talking like this in this normal voice, and then we suddenly get to this portion, and this is when the accent comes out, and you're like, what. Where did. Why did we make that turn? Like, it didn't need to be this way. So that's my crankiness.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Glad you got that off your chest. That's super valid.

[Danica Ellis]

Very valid.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It sounds to me like. Like, we would all recommend this. We all liked it. Maybe you read it as an ebook because it's a heavy hardcover, but.

[Danica Ellis]

So I did not realize going into this that this was more than 500 pages. I didn't realize it until well into the ebook because I was just reading.

[Vanessa Diaz]

The ebook still going when I. That percentage is still low.

[Danica Ellis]

I did not know I was committing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

To, like, you gotta look at how much homework you're taking on.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Danica Ellis]

And then I was like, man, I feel like I'm reading this pretty fast.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Fast was going.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it does read pretty fast. Are there?

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. It doesn't feel like it drags, at least to me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. What type of reader. Who are you recommending this to? Let's do the hand sell before we get out.

[Danica Ellis]

I mean, toxic lesbian vampires says it all. But also fans of, like, gothics, I think, would enjoy this. And just if you like a morally gray main character, if you're the kind of person who needs to really be behind the main character's choices, I would not recommend this or really any vampire book, but.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Great point. That's a great point.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I was definitely gonna lean into the morally gray. I hate to even do the unlikable, because that feels like it was its own tropey thing. That got weird for a bit. But, yeah, obviously, if you have an interest in vampires, great. But Specifically, yeah, that like morally gray and just getting to this is not at all the same kind of book. But there's a book by Jesse Zimmerman. Is it Women and their Monsters? That is like, I think that's what it's called. Like, I have to check that. But it's all about the monsters from Greek and Roman mythology and like a deep dive into like what makes them monstrous. And like, weirdly, if you are interested in like that sort of thing and like that definition of monstrosity and yeah, like unchecked desire, et cetera, then this is I think, gonna be. And yeah, the gothic, because I love.

[Danica Ellis]

Medium, I think it's partly like, it's easy to recommend and that I think a broad audience would enjoy this. But at the same time it's kind of. It's hard because like it, it does have sexy moments, but not a lot. It does have some like gore and blood, but not a lot.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that's. I think that's why it's easy to recommend to a broad audience. It's not like a Swiss army recommendation. Like, I can't give this to my mother in law for Christmas. Hey dad, maybe you have a cooler mother in law than I do, but you can. Like when Twilight was big, one of the selling points was that it was pretty clean, you know, like there wasn't a lot of sex on the page. And we can have a different conversation about whether that's a selling point for a book or not. But like, I think readers who want the, like the yearning and the intrigue of romance and don't mind a little sexy time on the page, but don't want it to be super explicit. Like this is maybe a nice counterpoint to some of the romantasy that is really explicit.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That's true. But it's.

[Danica Ellis]

It also isn't very romantic like this. You know, the main relationship is abusive.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Ain't nobody getting out of this one with happily ever after.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, if you're like, want vampires but don't want it to be like that kind of. Yeah, I guess everything that we said it's not is almost its best selling point because I, again, romanticy is great. This is not me, you know, crapping on it in any way. But like if you were specifically wanting to spend time with like, yeah, monstrous vampiric characters but are like not wanting a like ton of sex and you're also just not really wanting a lot of romance, period. I'm like, great. Yeah, everyone here is terrible.

[Danica Ellis]

I think the ideal reader for this is the people who, while this was a social media trend, said, I support women's rights, but I also support women's wrongs.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Wrongs. There you go. There you go. That's. That's perfect.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that's a perfect note to end on.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yes, I think so, too.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Thank you both for joining me. Show notes will be, as always, at Podcastriot or bookriot. Com. Listen, you can email us podcast at bookriot. Com. Join us on the Patreon at patreon. Com. Bookriot Podcast. And Jeff and I will be back with the news on Monday.