Book Riot - The Podcast: Study Shows Book Bans Lead to Increased Readership, the "Shadow Daddies" of Romantasy, and More

Release Date: April 21, 2025

Hosts: Rebecca Schinsky and Vanessa Diaz
Guest: Vanessa Diaz (Managing Editor, Book Riot)
Occasional Contributions: Jeff O’Neal (Product Development)

1. Introduction

In this episode, Rebecca Schinsky and Vanessa Diaz navigate through a variety of topics pertinent to the book world, from prestigious literary awards to the controversial realm of book banning. They also delve into the burgeoning trend of romantasy-themed events and the legal battles surrounding AI and intellectual property. The conversation is enriched with insights, data-driven discussions, and engaging banter that offers listeners a comprehensive view of the current literary landscape.

2. PEN America Awards

The hosts kick off the discussion by exploring the recent finalists for the 2025 PEN America Awards, which recognize outstanding literary works released in 2024. These awards are celebrated for highlighting both mainstream and under-the-radar titles that push the boundaries of literature.

Rebecca Schinsky highlights the significance of the PEN Jean Stein Book Award, the most prestigious category with a $75,000 prize. "The PEN Jean Stein Book Award is the biggie. It's $75,000. It is awarded to a book of any genre which has broken new ground by reshaping the boundaries of form and signaling strong potential for lasting influence" ([01:58]).

The finalists for this award include:

• "Dead in Long Beach, California" by Vanita Blackburn
• "With My Back to the Poems" by Victoria Chang
• "On Freedom" by Timothy Snyder

Jeff O’Neal adds a personal touch by reminiscing, "Oh, how many books I sold of that back in the day as a bookseller. So, yes, anyway." ([06:01])

Moving to the Open Book Award, which focuses on works by authors of color, the finalists are:

• "Blueprint" by Regiana Rashad
• "Black Women Taught Us" by [Author]
• "Vengeance Feminism" by Kali Nicole Gross
• "Dark Delight of Being Strange: Black Stories of Freedom" by James B. Hale III

Rebecca emphasizes the importance of these awards in promoting diverse voices, "It just seems like we all need more of this kind of reading." ([07:18])

The conversation also touches upon other categories like debut short story collections, debut novels, poetry, translation, and literary science writing, showcasing the breadth of talent recognized by PEN America.

3. Book Banning and Its Effects

One of the central themes of the episode is the impact of book banning, as discussed through the lens of the American Library Association (ALA) 2024 State of Libraries Report. Rebecca outlines the top 10 most challenged books, which predominantly feature themes related to race, gender, and LGBTQ issues:

1. "Boys Aren't Blue"
2. "Genderqueer"
3. "The Bluest Eye" (tie)
4. "The Perks of Being a Wallflower" (tie)
5. "Tricks" by Ellen Hopkins
6. "Looking for Alaska" by John Green
7. "Me and Earl and the Dying Girl" by Jesse Andrews
8. "Crank" by Ellen Hopkins
9. "Sold" by Patricia McCormick
10. "Flamer" by Mike Curado

Jeff O’Neal expresses frustration over the repetitive nature of these bans, "The list is unfortunately starting to be less and less surprising, which is a real bummer." ([12:17])

Rebecca introduces a pivotal study by researchers at Carnegie Mellon and George Mason University, which investigates whether book bans lead to increased or decreased readership. The findings are revealing:

• 12% Increase in Circulation: Banned books see a 12% increase in library circulation post-ban compared to a control group.
• Streisand Effect: Instead of deterring readership, bans inadvertently promote the books.
• Geographical Impact: The increase occurs in both red and blue states, and even in states without bans (Rebecca hypothesizes about the motivations behind readership spikes).

A notable statistic from the study reveals that 72% of censorship attempts are initiated by pressure groups and influenced decision-makers, predominantly pointing towards organizations like Moms for Liberty.

Jeff O’Neal reflects on the implications, "It's a nice thing to see that this is actually not as many parents as you think it is... but it's still just sort of gobsmacking to see it." ([13:12])

Rebecca and Jeff further discuss the ACLU's lawsuit against the Department of Defense over book bans in military-run schools. Rebecca notes the severe impact on students' education and standardized test preparedness, "These schools are among the highest performers on standardized metrics of education. So typically, kids of military parents who are going to these Department of Defense run schools get very good education. And that is being eroded now..." ([29:03])

Jeff O’Neal adds a historical perspective, comparing the current situation to past educational disparities, "It's like if you don't have a well-rounded view of everything... that's just woof." ([29:02])

The hosts emphasize the detrimental effects of book bans on authors, students, and the broader educational ecosystem, advocating for continued resistance and advocacy against such censorship.

4. Romantasy Trends and "Shadow Daddies"

Shifting gears, Rebecca and Jeff delve into the vibrant world of romantasy-themed events, specifically the phenomenon of "Shadow Daddies." These are live-action role-playing events where participants dress as their favorite book characters, particularly from popular romantasy series like Sarah J. Maas's "A Court of Thorns and Roses."

Jeff O’Neal shares his initial skepticism, "I didn't know there was a dearth of IRL balls to contend with. But it turns out the beast is actually about..." ([39:12])

Rebecca expresses mild alarm, reflecting on her personal boundaries with such fandom activities, "I find this to be a little bit alarming... I might yuck it a little bit because... being in a place where your consent is deeply concerned." ([40:59])

The discussion highlights the intersection of fandom enthusiasm and social dynamics, with participants investing significantly in costumes and event participation. Jeff comments on the commercialization and scaling of these events, "What is this Drag Race?... the Red Sox are literally doing a themed night for fourth wing." ([43:30])

Rebecca underscores the extensive investment from participants, "One of these guys says that he has personally spent fifty grand on coffee costumes." ([43:30])

Despite personal reservations, the hosts acknowledge the joy and community these events bring to fans, concluding with a respectful nod to diverse interests within the literary community.

5. AI and Intellectual Property: Meta's Lawsuits

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing Vanity Fair's exposé on Meta AI's legal challenges concerning the use of over 7 million books to train their large language models (LLMs).

Rebecca Schinsky summarizes the controversy, "Meta used to pirate them, which includes books from Jacqueline Woodson, Andrew Sean Greer, and Beverly Cleary, are deemed individually worthless." ([33:18])

The hosts critically analyze Meta's defense, which argues that while collective data was essential for training AI, individual books hold negligible value to the model. Jeff O’Neal equates this to dismissing the rights of individual contributors, "It's like the oboe player can't play all of the parts of the Rights of Spring by themselves." ([35:08])

Rebecca expands on the ethical implications, "The courts are just our law is so far behind the kinds of technology that people will weasel their way into." ([36:03])

Jeff shares insights from conversations with legal professionals, emphasizing the gap between current laws and technological advancements, "Lawyers are having to contend with everything from book banning, etc." ([37:04])

The discussion highlights the complex interplay between technology, intellectual property, and ethics, advocating for updated legal frameworks to address such evolving challenges.

6. Front List Foyer: Book Recommendations

In the Front List Foyer segment, Rebecca and Jeff share their current reading selections, offering listeners curated recommendations:

1. "Murder at Gull's Nest" by Jess Kidd

   • A thrilling mystery featuring a nun who abandons her vows to solve the disappearance of her pen pal.
     Jeff praises the audiobook narration by Siobhan McSweeney, enhancing the storytelling experience.

2. "Murder by Cheesecake" by Rachel Ekstrom Courage

   • A cozy mystery series featuring characters inspired by the Golden Girls, set against the backdrop of a St. Olaf-themed wedding.
     Rebecca is excited about the series, "I just want to put this in my brain cells. I cannot wait." ([47:21])

3. "Harlem Rhapsody" by Victoria Christopher Murray

   • A historical fiction that explores the life of a woman pivotal to the Harlem Renaissance, blending memoir and critical analysis of technology's impact on society.
     Rebecca anticipates its critical acclaim, "I would not be surprised to see this get nominated for the National Book Award for nonfiction." ([52:41])

These selections reflect a diverse range of genres and themes, catering to varied literary tastes.

7. Conclusion

Rebecca and Jeff wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to engage with the discussed topics, support ongoing literary advocacy, and delve into the recommended reads. They also highlight additional resources and ways to support Book Riot through Patreon.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Rebecca Schinsky: "The PEN Jean Stein Book Award is the biggie. It's $75,000. It is awarded to a book of any genre which has broken new ground by reshaping the boundaries of form and signaling strong potential for lasting influence." ([01:58])

• Jeff O’Neal: "The list is unfortunately starting to be less and less surprising, which is a real bummer." ([12:17])

• Rebecca Schinsky: "We all need more of this kind of reading." ([07:18])

• Jeff O’Neal: "It's a nice thing to see that this is actually not as many parents as you think it is... but it's still just sort of gobsmacking to see it." ([13:12])

• Rebecca Schinsky: "These schools are among the highest performers on standardized metrics of education... And that is being eroded now..." ([29:03])

• Jeff O’Neal: "It's like the oboe player can't play all of the parts of the Rights of Spring by themselves." ([35:08])

• Rebecca Schinsky: "The courts are just our law is so far behind the kinds of technology that people will weasel their way into." ([36:03])

• Jeff O’Neal: "If you don't have a well-rounded view of everything... that's just woof." ([29:02])

Additional Resources

• Study on Book Bans: Link available in the show notes for listeners to explore the detailed findings from Carnegie Mellon and George Mason University.
• PEN America Awards Details: Further information on nominees and categories can be found through PEN America's official channels.
• Book Recommendations: Available at thriftbooks.com under frpodcast.

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Note: This summary omits advertisement breaks and non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussions of the episode.