Summer 2025 Mailbag

Summary

Podcast Summary: Book Riot - The Podcast Episode: Summer 2025 Mailbag
Release Date: July 9, 2025
Hosts: Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky
Featuring: Vanessa (interlocutor)

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Introduction

In the "Summer 2025 Mailbag" episode of Book Riot - The Podcast, hosts Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky, alongside their guest Vanessa, engage with listener-submitted questions, offering insights into various literary topics, personal preferences, and behind-the-scenes aspects of the publishing world. The episode balances book recommendations with personal anecdotes, creating an engaging dialogue for avid readers and casual listeners alike.

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Technical Glitches and Upcoming Events [00:58 - 02:32]

Jeff opens the episode by addressing ongoing technical issues with their mobile recording setup, humorously acknowledging the imperfect audio quality:

“...you can get doubled at some point. I'm not sure what's going on with my mics...” ([00:58])

Despite the glitches, the hosts announce an upcoming live event at Powell's Downtown on July 9th, where they will discuss the "Best Books of the Year." They encourage listeners to attend and interact with other book enthusiasts.

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Mailbag Segment Introduction [02:32 - 06:19]

Rebecca introduces the Mailbag segment, outlining the categories of questions they received, including books and literature, non-book recommendations, job and industry insights, and personal inquiries. She remarks on the variety of topics, emphasizing their intent to blend book discussions with other areas of interest:

“...there's books and lit, which will surprise no one. Shockingly, we have non-book recommendations...” ([03:25])

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Book Recommendations and Literary Discussions [06:19 - 08:46]

Question 1: Thomas Pynchon Novels [04:19 - 06:19]
Listener Greg asks for recommendations on starting Thomas Pynchon's novels. Jeff suggests beginning with more approachable works like Vineland or Inherent Vice, noting their adaptation into films by Paul Thomas Anderson:

“I think Vineland is the one to read... Inherent Vice has also been made into a movie...” ([04:25])

Jeff humorously compares reading Pynchon's complex novels to skiing on a "black diamond," indicating their challenging nature.

Question 2: White Whale Book [06:15 - 08:46]
Madison's question explores the concept of a "white whale" book—an ultimate reading goal. Vanessa expresses a desire for literary fiction with beautiful language that fully immerses the reader:

“I was just reading something recently that like I felt myself completely sink into...” ([06:32])

Jeff reflects on his own literary aspirations, mentioning classics like The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire by Thomas Gibbon, while acknowledging the difficulty in pinpointing a singular "white whale" book.

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Non-Book Recommendations and Product Discussions [08:46 - 14:44]

Latest Products [09:04 - 14:44]
Vanessa introduces Loop Earplugs, highlighting their innovative design suitable for various situations, from concerts to sleeping arrangements:

“They’re designed so that they don’t stick out of your ears at all...” ([10:19])

Jeff shares his experience with a mobile phone stand featuring a gyro for stable recording, humorously dubbing himself a content creator:

“This is like a next-level selfie stick tripod...” ([12:00])

Rebecca discusses her preference for organized writing tools, mentioning a high-end rollerball pen:

“I bought a new pen, a LANY610. Okay $60 rollerball pen...” ([12:28])

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Personal Insights and Recommendations [14:44 - 31:38]

Favorite Theatrical Productions [14:41 - 21:53]
Rebecca shares her admiration for Tom Stoppard's plays, recounting emotional experiences with productions like The Invention of Love:

“I was like crying in the middle of it...” ([16:05])

Vanessa highlights her preference for immersive experiences, such as live concerts and musicals, mentioning seeing Janelle Monáe and Counting Crows:

“I did a really great production of Les Mis last year... I saw Counting Crows a bunch of times...” ([15:07])

Arts and Live Performances Tips [18:00 - 21:53]
Rebecca recommends leveraging arts access programs to attend various productions affordably, encouraging listeners to explore local theaters and festivals:

“Those are easily available, especially for men whom the arts are maybe not as accessible...” ([18:55])

Jeff reminisces about his first musical experience with Phantom of the Opera and expresses a desire to attend more live performances in the future:

“I remember being totally blown... I wish I made my time more of a go out and do it person...” ([17:04])

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Industry Insights and Substack Discussion [31:38 - 43:32]

Transition from Blogging to Podcasting [28:21 - 31:38]
Rebecca inquires about the hosts' shift from traditional blogging to front-facing roles in newsletters and social media. Vanessa explains the necessity of multitasking in a small team and the desire to stay connected with their content creation processes:

“We're a small team and everybody has to do things... we miss making things... like the podcast...” ([28:21])

Experiences as Book Bloggers [32:02 - 41:15]
Responding to Josh's question about their blogging experiences, Vanessa recounts her entry into book blogging during her time at Barnes & Noble, emphasizing authenticity and community engagement:

“I just did exactly what we just described... I wanted to write about books in a way that wasn't academic...” ([35:39])

Jeff adds that building an audience involved interacting with other bloggers and utilizing platforms like Twitter, highlighting the evolution from early blogging days to modern platforms like Substack:

“RSS subscribe to their RSS feed... It's a natural fit... think of it as putting a hat on a hat...” ([33:22])

Substack's Role in Independent Publishing [40:17 - 43:32]
Vanessa discusses the advantages of Substack in fostering communities and allowing writers to express unique interests, while Jeff examines its financial model and potential for creator sustainability:

“Substack's recommendations are good... you can grow organically...” ([41:02])
“Substack made the bet that 5% of people would pay $7 or $8 a month...” ([42:18])

They both acknowledge the platform's strengths in direct audience engagement and the enduring value of email-based content distribution.

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Personal Questions and Lighthearted Banter [43:32 - 47:11]

Pets and Family Dynamics [43:42 - 45:12]
Rebecca playfully probes Jeff's stated aversion to pets, leading to a humorous exchange about their preferences:

“We enjoy other people's pets... we just don't want to deal with it...” ([44:19])

Vanessa compares their feelings about pets to her approach to children, appreciating others' pets while not desiring one herself:

“I think you feel about pets the way I feel about children...” ([44:19])

Reading Habits and Setups [45:22 - 47:11]
The hosts share their varied reading environments, from cozy home setups to enjoying books in transit. Vanessa favors a flexible approach, reading wherever she is, while Jeff reminisces about ideal reading spots with scenic views:

“I tend to like reading outside more than most of my experience...” ([46:03])
“My ideal reading setup is at a window overlooking the city as the lights go down...” ([47:00])

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Additional Mailbag Questions and Recommendations [47:11 - 71:38]

Recommendations for Visiting Portland [60:52 - 71:38]
Gina asks for advice on enjoying Portland's best donuts, ice cream, and coffee. The hosts recommend local favorites like Blue Star Donuts and Grand Central Bakery, emphasizing unique local flavors and dining experiences:

“Blue Star is a little on the bougie spectrum but they can be great...” ([62:45])
“Go to Grand Central Bakery and get whatever the Danish of the day is...” ([63:13])

They also suggest exploring Washington Park and its attractions, highlighting the Oregon Zoo and Japanese Garden as must-visit spots.

Fear of Flying [66:49 - 71:38]
A listener expresses developing anxiety about flying. Vanessa shares her indifferent approach, while Jeff admits mild discomfort due to motion sickness. They offer practical tips such as engaging conversation, having entertainment ready, and considering relaxation aids:

“Have something to look forward to. Get yourself a little snack...” ([68:32])

Insomnia and Bedtime Reading [71:38 - 72:16]
A listener seeks book recommendations that are engaging enough to fall asleep but not too stimulating. Vanessa and Jeff suggest classics and essay collections, emphasizing the importance of familiarity and simplicity:

“Think of Dickens... or a collection of essays...” ([71:32])
“Rereading a beloved book can help...” ([71:43])

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Conclusion

The "Summer 2025 Mailbag" episode offers a blend of thoughtful book discussions, practical recommendations, and personal anecdotes. Jeff, Rebecca, and Vanessa create a warm and engaging atmosphere, inviting listeners to explore new literary horizons while sharing their own reading journeys and preferences. Whether discussing complex authors like Thomas Pynchon or offering local Portland tips, the hosts provide valuable insights that resonate with the diverse Book Riot audience.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jeff on Pynchon’s Complexity:

  “It's like starting to ski on a black diamond. But you've already read books, you can clearly read them.” ([04:55])

• Vanessa on Ideal Reading Experience:

  “I want to be so absorbed by writing or to feel so present with what's happening to the characters.” ([07:02])

• Rebecca on Arts Accessibility:

  “I've absolutely got tickets for most productions... It's a great way to entertain yourself over a summer.” ([18:55])

• Jeff on Substack's Potential:

  “You can think about it as an ecosystem and be a good participant.” ([40:10])

• Vanessa on Overcoming Fear of Flying:

  “I would chat to distract people who are nervous flyers...” ([68:00])

---

Final Thoughts

This episode underscores the dynamic nature of the Book Riot podcast, seamlessly integrating listener engagement with insightful discussions. By addressing a wide array of topics, the hosts not only cater to book lovers but also create a community space for shared interests and experiences.

Transcript

[Jeff O'Neill]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want, like that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Dream house or ride, is a great feeling.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's why the State Farm personal price plan can help you save when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. On WhatsApp, no one can see or.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Hear your personal messages.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this.

[Vanessa]

So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Late night voice messages that could basically.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family.

[Vanessa]

No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Hey everybody. Jeff. Here our experiments in mobile recording continue. I think it's a little bit better than what we did in the spring. This is a mailbag we did with Vanessa in my living room testing out some mobile recording equipment. I get doubled at some point. I'm not sure what's going on with my mics. So you're going to hear that it comes and goes. It gets a little worse and then gets better. Then it gets worse anyway, it's a known issue. We're working on it. If it's too much for you and you can't abide it, I totally get it. But for some of you, maybe won't be a big deal. We're gonna keep working on this and keep trying stuff. But yeah, independent media, baby. This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill.

[Vanessa]

I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And Vanessa, we're in our living room.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Vanessa, I'm here too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We're all here. We may or may not be having a tipple. We're in town for work for the Portland show that we're doing tomorrow night. You will be too late. By the time you're hearing, it'll be.

[Vanessa]

Tonight by the time you're hearing this on Wednesday morning.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right. Because I'm still tonight. Yeah. So you'll be able to come see us. Powell's Downtown, July 9th. We're doing the best books of the year. Vanessa has her picks, Rebecca and I and Keith Mossman from Powell's will be there. Come check us out. But today, what we're doing, we thought since we're all here, we'd do a live awkward recording Mailbag. Rebecca Sent out a call for listeners questions for us. Vanessa's agreed to be an interlocutor. I have not done my homework. I intentionally did not look at them so you can get my response in real time. Rebecca, you did. You already reviewed.

[Vanessa]

I've seen them, but I didn't prepare.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You didn't prepare anything.

[Vanessa]

I passed them over to Vanessa.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So how many do we have? Do we have a bunch? Like, what are we looking?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We do actually have and I have accounts. So we have 12, 15 questions. No, 17 questions.

[Vanessa]

Might not get to all of them.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We'll see.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Might not get to all of them. And we're just going to go through them one by one. What else do we have to tell people about Rebecca? This is normal podcast.

[Vanessa]

Find us on the Patreon.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, over there. We are going to be talking about the Berry Giant a little bit later in the month in Katabasis by Arf Kuang coming out in August. We're going to be doing and other than that, regular stuff. Bookriot.com Listen for the show notes.

[Vanessa]

You can always email us at podcast.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I haven't got as many emails of late. I don't know, maybe the Patreons are putting their stuff over there, but it's.

[Vanessa]

Been a little light on the, you know, summer lull.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay with that, Vanessa? Let's, you know, pick them as you go. You want to do an order, it's up to you.

[Vanessa]

She's got a plan.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I have a plan.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You have a plan. There are ready for a plan.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There is. I mean, it's a loose plan. Let's be be real. But I want to let you know the categories that you were dealing with Here we have books and lit, which will surprise no one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

He's weird.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Shockingly, we have non book recommendations. But I want to get your thoughts on some stuff that is not books. We have job, industry, behind the scenes kind of stuff. And then I have a category I have deemed. Well, that's personal. There are only two of those. Okay, so there is.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We may not have time for that category.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We may or may not.

[Vanessa]

But nobody made it weird.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, it is not that kind of.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You did vet correct.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So I figure I'm going to pepper y' all with a couple of book questions because that's what we're here to do. And then we're just going to move into the other stuff and keep it in there. Now there's not too much. So we're going to start you off with a book question. This one comes from Greg. Says he's never read a novel by Thomas Pynchon, and he's curious to find out what he's been missing. For those who have read his work and have a positive impression of it, which novel should he read first and why?

[Vanessa]

I also have not read a Pynchon novel. I'm gonna read my first one this fall before the new Paul Thomas Anderson.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think that's the one to read Vineland, which is what One battle after another, I think is the new movie that's coming out. The Paul Thomas Anderson movie starring Leonardo DiCaprio. I think that one's reasonable. The other one is Inherent Vice, which has also gotten been made into a movie by Paul Thomas Anderson. It's a time novel set in L. A but only as Pynchon does. Like the big ones, V. Gravity's Rainbow, Mason and Dixon. You know, when you go skiing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Sure, sure.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And they have, like, green for beginners.

[Vanessa]

Oh, yes. Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And, like, blue for intermediate. Those books are double black diamonds. Those are really difficult. I actually don't have a strong opinion on those because I think they're so abstruse that it's pretty tough to get into. I am not openly recommending Pinchin. Normally, I think Vineland's good. I really like Inherent Vice. I kind of think the movie of Inherent Vice is a little more approachable just because of what it is now. Maybe that's not what you want. It's interesting. He has a book coming out in the fall. I don't remember the name of it right now.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Could it be Shadowed?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes, I believe that is the case. Good one on that. Yes. But, like, I think those are the ones who probably Inherent Vice. I have not read them all. There could be a couple that I don't know. But those are the ones I have some experience with. I read Mason and Dixon when it came out. I had hardcover. This is. I was still using, like, the library. Like. Oh, yes, those things. Like those plastic things. I still have it. I may have gotten rid of it because it was actually worth something. I was like, I don't need this in my life anymore. And I found it to be a slog. To be perfectly honest, none of them, in my estimation, are what I would call easy. Yeah, it's like starting to ski on a black diamond. But you've already read books. You can clearly read them. But I think it's pretty difficult. I know that's an unsatisfying answer.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, that's an honest answer. That's what we want. Another book question. What is your white whale book? What would it be about and what does it make you feel? And this comes from Madison.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Wait, White whale book.

[Vanessa]

Like your ultimate. The thing you're chasing, I guess.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I imagine.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, not like a book that exists that you haven't read yet.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think you could, because I mean the way that Madison phrase. The question is what would it be about and how does it make you feel? So I think you can answer this, however makes sense for you. That's the MCs.

[Vanessa]

I don't think subject matter would matter to me. I mean, literary fiction, like people sitting around thinking about things, tends to be my vibe. But that with like really gorgeous language. I was just reading something recently that like I felt myself completely sink into. I forgot I had a phone. The language was really transcendent. And that like, that's what I want is to be so absorbed by writing or to feel so present with what's happening to the characters.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, we did white noise for the show and whatever that does is what, something a little weird, like it's electric, it's strange. You feel maybe just at the edge of your understanding, but not. Not in Pinch and Land, not in Mason Land. And also it's about something like that One certainly isn't obviously moralizing or doesn't have a distinct. Like, this is what you should think about it. Presenting things that are familiar and unfamiliar ways to like, re estrange yourself and then re. Engage with it based on that new experience. I think that's really it. I. I do find myself wanting it to be about something like gorgeous. Writing alone is not enough. I also don't want it just to be plot and character. I don't need to like everything. It's like people say about movies. Show me something I haven't seen before and do in a way that I can care about. That sounds obvious, but I think it's a lot more difficult.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, I think it's more like what I'm looking for is something that either feels new or makes me experience art in a different way. The books you read and you think, like, I didn't know you could do that in a book. That is like my white whale reading.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Feeling in terms of like extant books that I haven't read that I would like to get to someday. This is going to sound like a terrible brag and I'm so sorry.

[Vanessa]

I was going to say waves, hair.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Ready for us to run.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't really. I kind of engage with the ones I really wanted to, like if I had a million years, like the rise And Fall of the Roman Empire by Thomas Gibbon or some of those big chunky non fiction. Like there's a Mondrian biography that came out last year. I'd love to have time to get to one of those things. But oven in itself, like, I don't need to do all of remembrances of things past. I've done the first one. I've done Swan's Way. You know, I've done the big ones that I kind of care about the most, if that makes sense. I don't have a big one.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that is a perfectly fine answer.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

All right, I'm gonna shake it up now and have y' all do some non book recommendations. So the first one is from Dee, and she says, what new products have you discovered? I'm asking this because I've already ordered my away suitcase, Rebecca, and last year purchased a cardboard cutter. Thank you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, I was gonna say is am I still in 2024? My canary. I just use it a minute.

[Vanessa]

Oh, this is definitely a Patreon member then. Because those are from, like the Best of the Rest episodes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. They're basically thanking you for all that and said, hey, you know, obviously they're.

[Vanessa]

A listener, but have I really? Oh, no, I do. The Internet sold me on loop earplugs this year. Do you get those Instagram ads?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I do indeed.

[Vanessa]

And they make them in a variety. There's the entry level ones, which I think you can use in any situation. They're fine. I lost mine on a train in Finland, so then I leveled up to the ones that are built for if you're a side sleeper and you might share a bed with someone who snores.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Wait, so what makes them so good? Why are they better than just a normal ear?

[Vanessa]

They're designed so that they don't stick out of your ears at all. So if you're laying on your side.

[Jeff O'Neill]

They just get stuck in there. They can just stay in there. Right in.

[Vanessa]

The part that goes into your ear has a little loop attachment. So it goes into your. I'm gesturing because Jeff and Vanessa can see me, but, like, you stick the, like, capsule space thing or shape thing, like into your ears, and it has a little tiny loop that sits, like in that big, flat, open part of your ear so that however you're sleeping, you don't feel the earplug getting smushed around. It also doesn't get jostled out. They come with, like four different sizes tips. So however big your ear holes are.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, we kind of got it used to have like AirPods and stuff like that.

[Vanessa]

It's like that. So I leveled up to. I think they're the loop dreams, but they also have like a higher level one. If you go to a lot of concerts and you want to be able to hear the sound, but it not be too loud for damage. And even one that might function more like AirPods, where you can toggle between different modes. I'm fully on the loop earplugs.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I know a lot of folks who use those are just like, I'm overwhelmed by too much noise, et cetera.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, I can see how that would work. Just like for general sensory.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I just realized there are two parts of the ear. There's the lobe and everything else. Like, ask me to describe what's this part? This canal. Sure. That's in there. There's a drum.

[Vanessa]

Sure, yeah. Inside here.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There'S this part. And then this is like a real.

[Vanessa]

Shame that we are not a video podcast.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Because all those ridges, we all kind of have the same ones, but it'd be like naming craters on the moon. Yeah, that's the Marianas Trench.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Love this anatomy.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because the Marianas Trench is on the moon.

[Vanessa]

Got it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was. I. I was really waiting to point that out.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Thank you.

[Vanessa]

Any new products in your life?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I feel that you just made me a drink with one of your favorite products.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I've talked about the Nugget ice machine before. This is not a new product because I don't really buy stuff, but I have a big hand press for Citrus, for making drinks. Like, we're not screwing with that little squeezer. We're not doing the hand thing. This is a giant press. It's very like Gutenberg. It has a very, like, industrial, satisfying, you know, situation. But, like, I don't know, what have I bought recently? You know what? Because we've been doing this social video, I've got this thing. I think it's. I can walk around.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You can.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't know what this thing is called, but, like, it's a. It's a little phone stand that has a gyro on it so it stays level. Oh. And so you can hold it. But then it's got this really nice.

[Vanessa]

This is like a next level selfie stick tripod.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It really is. And then, like, you can move it around and it comes back to home base. And then you can move it very.

[Vanessa]

Oh, man.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Jeff o', Neill, CONTENT creator I'm living.

[Vanessa]

In, like, the dark age.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I need to level up to this. I'll try to find A link for this show Notes this looks like it's.

[Vanessa]

Andy Weir designed phone.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It really does look like they would repurpose this in like a Star Trek to make some sort of.

[Vanessa]

They're like you have to close the airlock door.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Rowan what else have we bought recently that I don't know, I don't really buy things. I bought a new pen, a LANY610. Okay $60 rollerball pen and a little stainless steel single pen holder. So I just always put it right back there rather than my pocket. This lives on my desk. That pen goes nowhere else.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Nowhere.

[Vanessa]

Do you only use it for like.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Special things or special things?

[Vanessa]

Is it $60 pen your like daytime.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Everyday pe do you have a nighttime pen?

[Vanessa]

I mean I just live and die by like a certain type of Bic pen.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I like it. Well, I've got big hands as you know, so it's like a thicker barrel so it feels good. But it's a nice pen. And I just, I've really. I think when I went to college I kind of had a little bit of a pen thing because I like wanted a nice pen, whatever. And I haven't dealt with it a long time. Mostly having kids, they disappear whenever I walk around. But I spend enough time at my desk that I wanted just a nice pen that lives here and it goes back there.

[Vanessa]

So it's a nice pen for everyday use. It's not just like a special occasion pen.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't even know what like signing important. I haven't chartered a nation recently.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Let me know when you do and if you use the pen.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I guess it'll have to be my every. Now I have like I need a ceremonial. Trying to think of what else. I feel like a botanist.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think those are fine answers especially because we have many people that have more questions for you.

[Vanessa]

She's keeping us moving.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This one's a short one and is mostly directed for my friend Rebecca says hey, you talk about your caftan love on an episode in the last year and as a fellow shorty, I'd love to know the brand.

[Vanessa]

Oh, it's one I received. I think the one I was talking about on that show is one I received as a gift. And it is from. It's Mila. It's French, I think M I L L E. Wonderful. Great.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This one is for both of you. It says do you like plays? What about musicals? If so, what is your favorite piece of theater that you've seen recently or an all time favor fave and if not with just a Favorite live performance, whether it's, you know, concert, coffee house.

[Vanessa]

Oh, I do like plays and musicals. I don't go to them nearly as often as I wish. I did a really great production of Les Mis last year. That's perpetual fave. I'm more of a concert live music person. Janelle Monae is up on my list of great experiences. And I saw like, a true middle aged white person who went to college in the early 2000s. I saw oar at Red Rocks last summer.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Wow, you said that into a microphone.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, forever.

[Vanessa]

And I've seen Counting Crows a bunch of times and they remain excellent live.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I do like plays in theater and musicals, too. I don't also go often enough. It's really expensive for four to go.

[Vanessa]

Oh, that is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I'm not going to go just by myself and. Or just maybe in the future. I'd love. Like, one of the dreams is to spend more time in New York and go just because when I was young and I had time, I had no money. And now that I have money, I don't really have time. But sometime in the future. But I do. I. I'll give you. I give you a few. Like mem. I remember seeing my first real musical was in a traveling production in Kansas City at the Music hall of Phantom of the Opera. And to my knowledge, I had almost no knowledge of musicals at all. Like, I didn't even really know what one was outside of, like, wizard of Oz, the movie. But it even really tracked for me that that was a musical.

[Vanessa]

So, like, you walked in there and you didn't know what was gonna happen.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was like 13, and I remember being totally blown. Like, what is this? Like, the song's amazing and whatever, and it's kind of cheesy, and I get that, but I'm not a connoisseur of that particular genre. I just kind of like what I like. But that was really. That was really amazing. I think it was just my mom and I went to. That I went and saw in New York when it was first running, Tom Stoppard's play the Invention of Love. And Robert John Leonard was in the. And it is the story of a He Houseman who is a poet. Was a poet. He was gay in a time when it wasn't cool to be gay. Like, most times weren't really that cool to be gay. And it's his memory of being a student, being in love with a guy there. But also this, you know, this time when you're a literary person and everything's Possible. And nothing's possible. And it was Stoppard's. Unbelievable, that one. I was like crying in the middle of it. And it's Robert.

[Vanessa]

Sean Lennon's the guy from Dead Poets Society.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes, Robert Sean Leonard. Yeah, yeah. And he was in that. And I went and saw it again in London when I had a chance because I was so moved by. And I've read back Rosencrantz and Guilder and Stone are Dead and Arcadia. I love Tom Stoppard. Maybe not to a beast. I mean, I like most musicals. I see, frankly, like, Rowan has gotten into musicals too. Ames has a little bit as well, and my brother is into them. I wish I. I wish I made my. I wish I did more of them. It's like, it's kind of funny, right? Like, if you see a musical, then you'll listen to soundtrack forever. But listening to a soundtrack of musical you've never seen is like, you can't go.

[Vanessa]

You cannot go backwards. You can't go backwards.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's a one way street. So. But like, we. We went and did the Lottery for Rent, like several times when people visit us. Like, that's one thing we would do when people visit us is go to the Lottery for Rent or the Lottery for Wicked. When that started happening, we saw it multiple times. Always a good time. So I like going, but I don't. I wish. I wish I made more time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm gonna sneak in a little recommendation.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. For anybody.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

For whom Arts.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. If you haven't answered these, Vanessa, we.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Need you over here. Like the little, like, in the corner getting ignored. No, I was going to say that a thing that most people I talked to aren't aware is that most cities have something in the vein of like an arts access for all program where a lot of shows in your city probably have tickets that you can get that are limited. So you do have to kind of, you know, pay attention, scout, maybe be flexible about your date. But where they are.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Have you done that here?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I have absolutely tickets for most productions. I've seen stuff on, like, actual Broadway. Like, I got to see six for the second. I'm trying to go see and Juliet soon. But then also a lot of, like, local repertory theaters do fun productions. I just literally saw one called Sherlock Holmes in the Precarious Position or something. Again, it was like a $20 price point.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I would. I should do that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Those are easily available, especially for fol. Whom the arts are maybe not as accessible. So I highly recommend. I've done this in multiple cities that I've either traveled to or been to. So that's.

[Vanessa]

That's a great tip. I'm gonna look.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm enough of an omnivore that I even enjoy like high school productions. Oh.

[Vanessa]

I literally watch 100%. I don't need to like, I don't want to turn on my critic brain at all for something like that. Like plop me down in a field at a local like community theater. Did you practice?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Shakespeare festival. That happened. Exactly.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, I love Shakespeare in the park.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Original practice here in Portland.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I know. And there's Ashland down there. I've never been like, this is one of the. I wish I was more of a go out and do it person. But like even we were looking at high schools for Ames because they start in the fall and we're walking through the halls. I was just seeing the posters for this. I was like, I'd go see Fiddler.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Of Sister act I've ever seen was at Central.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You can't say that too loud. And you're gonna lose.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Which is why I knew, you know, to be careful. But it was phenomenal. Phenomenal. So again, look it up. Great way to entertain yourself over a summer.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's. That's a resolution worthy like 2026. See some live. Yeah, it can be whatever.

[Vanessa]

My tip for that is that like as soon as see the thing, if it's like it comes up on your Instagram, it comes up on your Facebook, a friend mentions it. You just have to buy the ticket. Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Then that's what I do. You can always get rid of it if you absolutely need to. I have such a calendar for it.

[Vanessa]

Right. It's a do not hesitate moment. Like, you're not going to be sad.

[Jeff O'Neill]

My brother does something which I'm very envious of both in terms of practice and sort of philosophically or like, I don't know. He's hooked up right. To do this. His. His wife doesn't really care for musicals. Whatever. He bought himself a single season pass for like the Portland.

[Vanessa]

I love this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And he just goes by himself and he's co and whatever me with my movie past.

[Vanessa]

I'll go see anything.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Correct. Same.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm gonna confess to you maybe because I'm a half margarita and I do have an idol margarita in like. Like I have like a bunch of when I'm retired stuff. Like I'm gonna memorize song.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You and I share one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I would be in a like a local community theater.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's our.

[Vanessa]

Oh my God.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's our shared.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like just. I Don't need to be the lead, but like the apothecary, I want to.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Be somebody in the corner.

[Vanessa]

Okay, Diaz, I believe this for you. I have known you for 15 years, and this is the most surprising thing you've ever heard.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because I want to know the language. Like, what's it like to actually do it?

[Vanessa]

I love this. It's beautiful.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

During our episode of the Adaptation Nation. Oh, did I say this when we talked about Macbeth? Yeah. And I was like, oh, my gosh, Jeff, you and I don't probably have a lot of retirement dreams in common, but that is one.

[Vanessa]

Contain your multitudes. I will come see that happen.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Absolutely.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I mean, I'm not stay tuned for a book. And I'm not. I'm not a one taker. So it'd be a real effort for. For me to memorize the lines and get it correct, but it's kind of one of those feels that, you know, people want to run a marathon. That's my marathon.

[Vanessa]

You can have a great time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I don't know. Can I contact you? I can be the third old guy.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Polonius.

[Vanessa]

One line. Get yourself like, one good line to memorize.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is a future patreon. What roles in Shakespeare could I possibly almost get right in a.

[Vanessa]

Local listeners, send us your suggestion.

[Jeff O'Neill]

My leaders in the can are Polonius from. From Hamlet and the Apothecary from.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I vote on both of those. I could see that.

[Vanessa]

What a pleasant surprise that answered.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is what you find out in mailbag episodes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, let's do a sponsor break on that. Give me a chance to recover my self esteem and clam up.

[Vanessa]

This episode is sponsored by Playful by Design by Miriam Sandler. Stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook edition provided by our sponsors at Harper Celebrate. Playful by Design is your blueprint for effortlessly designing, installing, and maintaining your own upgraded play spaces. Miriam Sandler, creator and founder of Mother could, helps you give your kids the tools they need to unlock their imaginations and encourage kid directed, kid executed, and ultimately kid enriching independent play using the materials and spaces you already have. Not only will this system help your children grow, it will also help foster a more connected, more productive and happier home for your entire family. Also narrated by Miriam Sandler, the AudioBook includes a PDF full of visuals. This beautiful book will equip you to understand the importance of independent play as well as set it in motion. You'll discover that boredom can be a good thing, and you'll see how it can make their imaginations blossom again. Stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook edition of Playful by Design, written and narrated by Miriam Sandler.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Today's episode is brought to you by Kanopy. Stream Smarter Use your library card. We all know streaming is a little bit out of control these days. There's just so many different apps that you have to have to get all of the content that you want to watch. But on the Kanopy app you can stream thousands thousands of movies or TV shows for free thanks to the generous support of your public library. A moment for Libraries just They're the best. All you need is a library card to access popular movies and TV shows, read alongs and kids programming on your smart TV, tablet, phone or browser. Visit kanape.com to find a library near you and stream Smarter for free today again, that is kanape. Com. Thank you once again to Kanopy for sponsoring today's show. Today's episode is sponsored by Horrible Women, Wonderful Girls by Julianne Szippos. Head to wonderfulgirlsnovel.com now and click on the free cookbook link just for Book Riot listeners. Because Pie Neighborhood what happens when a sharp tongued misfit collides with a world famous brand built on small town secrets and lies? Behind the pastel perfect promises spun by an angry army of prairie Karens lies the ugly truth behind Littleburg's Wonderful Girls. Freshly fired, forced into rehab and on the run from MeToo Hollywood, JC Grayson did not come to play. With no filter and nothing to lose, she sets out to expose a billion dollar fraud. With her job on the line, her sobriety at stake, and fellow outcasts relying on her resilience for their reinvention. Meet the hilarious new series heroine we didn't know we needed. Flawed, fearless and refreshingly unfiltered, flipping the script on empowerment, image and identity in today's America. Thank you once again to Horrible Women Wonderful Girls for sponsoring today's show. And don't forget to click on wonderfulgirlsnovel.com for that free cookbook link.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay Vanessa, let's let's go through.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Let's go for a couple more book questions. Jess is heading off for her honeymoon in August. Has an 8 plus hour flight looking for any book. Good, good book suggestions for mysteries or science fiction for her new husband. P.S. come to Chicago, do an event.

[Vanessa]

Jess has he read the Martian and Project Hail Mary?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Correct. Those are in the can responses or Blake Crouch.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I say that's another one. Dark Matter Recursion Those are really great.

[Vanessa]

Yeah that's right. Dark matter is the good one or the early? I think the early essay. Cosbys like that read like they're on rails. The first couple are so good.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

If you want to reduce him to moldering jelly, get him the road.

[Vanessa]

Oh, God. On her honeymoon.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, he's trying to get through eight hours of that. He'll be pliable for the rest of your activities. Whatever you need to do, he'll say yes to. He'll just be so glad you're not all dead.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's touching. Honeymoon.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's got to be a couple more I can think of here. I don't know if he's done. Ready, Player one. That's a good one to do on a plane.

[Vanessa]

You just read what was it, the doorman that you loved?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it's a mystery. I like that quite a bit. I like that quite a bit. Yeah. I think that's what I've got. I would like more sci fi mystery. That's not a genre I know a lot of.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, no, they're. They're. It's out there. But I would love more as a mystery reader.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Carry on the Dog Stars by Peter Heller. Oh, yeah.

[Vanessa]

All the Peter Heller, like, outdoor adventure thrillers.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. The river.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that's great. Mel says. I have a theory that most readers will either like Jane Eyre or Jane Austen, but not both. I personally love Jane Austen, but the Brontes were just too gothic for me and not in a good way with vampires. And the question is just thoughts.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, I don't mean to be reductive here, but they are different writers, so people will like them differently. I think this is one of those situations because they're both named Jane, people.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Expect them to be more Jane plus classics equals.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

Like, there could be a BuzzFeed quiz of, are you a Jane Austen or a Jane Austen?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. It's just because it's Jane. If her name was like Chandra, that's the Chandra Austin, they wouldn't be like, which one do you like better?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Chandra Austin.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Folks, I gotta get better at the names.

[Vanessa]

Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I. I don't know.

[Vanessa]

I mean, I'm not a Jane Aust fan and I did like Jane Eyre, but I like the Mad Woman in the Attic of it all.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Correct.

[Vanessa]

I really like Wyatt Sargasso Sea.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was about to say. And so we're gonna Wide Sargassaway.

[Vanessa]

Yes. Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I am that person that actually loves both. And I think I'm more of an.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Austin person, but I think there are.

[Vanessa]

A lot of readers who do Love both. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm trying to think of, like, what would be a version of this question where I feel like you get more of a sorting hat situation going on. Like, I don't really know my favorite.

[Vanessa]

Confused, like, literary confusion of Tom Robbins or Tom Wolf.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, well, I'm like Jane Austen or Charles Dickens. Right? Like one. You know, they're both.

[Vanessa]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, clearly be a Dickens. You would clearly be a dick.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We're going to switch things up and do an industry question or, you know, behind the scenes. This is not a hard one. I've noticed Jeff and Rebecca have been taking over more on site responsibilities, like writing newsletters and posting on social media. I'm curious about what led y' all to make that shift from back of house to more front from Olivia.

[Vanessa]

We're a small team and everybody has to do things. And, well, a phrase that I've learned from our salesperson is like, eat your own dog food. And I think our version of that is that if we're gonna ask our editorial team to take on new work, and Vanessa can chime in that we tend to try to put ourselves in front of the bus first and see what the thing is about or establish whatever we can establish before we ask other people to invest a whole bunch of time and energy into it. And also, we both have a pretty strong dose of the Don Draper, you like the beginnings of things disease.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And we like to make things, I think.

[Vanessa]

And we like to make things, I.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Think what they probably also don't stuff is the stuff we slough off. Right. Like, I used to do book ride deals every day. Now Vanessa does that most days. And some other people do. So, like, some of those things you may not see or like, critical linking I used to do in the day or just like, general writing for the site, we really don't do any of that anymore. So it's some of his rotation. Yeah.

[Vanessa]

And some of it, too, is that, like, during COVID our team expanded a lot when demand was expanding and we pulled more out of doing editorial. But we both felt like then we got too far out of it. We missed making things. Like, we love the podcast, but we missed having our hands in it more. We, like, feel like being in it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

With you guys and also just moving stuff around as there's more newsletters. We just need more hands doing stuff. Yeah.

[Vanessa]

Like, that's maybe an interesting piece for listeners. Is that one of the ways that our content can come about is that we have a mat between, like, a thing an advertiser is interested in like they want to advertise more self help lifestyle type books and content that we feel interested in making. Like I want to write a newsletter about those kinds of things. Or maybe I'm the person on staff who like reads the most in that area. So I'm the person who launches that newsletter.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And some of it, like for example with today in books, like that's a natural fit. Like Sharifa and Rebecca and I do rotations. But we're reading that news for the pod anyway.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So that's kind of like putting a hat on a hat and makes a little more efficient that we've been trying to be more efficient. Vanessa's been doing a lot of that too. And who's the right person doing the right thing?

[Vanessa]

We also have fewer like what we would call tasky tasks on our plates than most of the editorial stuff. So we can, I think more easily take on something that like every third week you're going to write two newsletters every morning and that's easier to fit into our workflows.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, yeah. I wonder. Last time I wrote, I probably wrote a regular post for like just a regular ass post.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Probably last year when you were still contributing to the headline.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I guess it's only been been. I guess.

[Vanessa]

Oh yeah. I think my last regular post was maybe when I reread the Bridges of Madison County.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh yes. Do highly recommend that read for those who have not yet read it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I wonder if I still have the most posts and word.

[Vanessa]

Oh, I doubt it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Now I think Kelly might have you. Kelly, just because of the sheer volume. Yeah. And not, not even counting the community based. But yeah, all in all, essentially they've got their hands in a lot of pies. But we try to make sure that we're matching up people who like just know how to do like y' all naturally. Like I said, have your fingers on the pulse of newsy stuff. So it's not like we're completely asking.

[Vanessa]

Anybody to go completely just go develop a whole new.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right.

[Vanessa]

Like I couldn't drop into a bunch of our newsletters.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No way. Absolutely not. There's just, there's.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You're not going to fill in kissing books, Jeff?

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, not anytime soon.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Next question. This is from Josh, who says thanks for taking this question. You love the show. And he wanted to ask if you two could elaborate more on your experiences as bloggers back in the heyday of book blogging. How did you write about books back then? How did you structure the format of your blog and what did you do to Set yourself apart from other bloggers, asks a lot more questions, but basically it's like, hey, I started a blog on Substack where I mostly talk about books, talk about other things. I have 17 subscribers now. I suppose my last question is, like, what advice?

[Vanessa]

Oh, man. It is both very similar and very different from how it used to be. Because I feel like we've gone all the way around. When I started blogging in 2008 and Jeff, I think you were like 2009, 2010.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I think it was a year or so later.

[Vanessa]

The culture then was that like, first of all, there weren't that many.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No.

[Vanessa]

And so the culture was that you would have probably found some book blogs before you started one. That's how you knew it was a thing people were doing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I really wish I could go back and like, do the Beautiful Mind Yard. Like how I figured out this was a thing.

[Vanessa]

Right? Like you, you read a couple, you decide you're gonna do the thing. And the way that you would grow audience then, because this was like before Twitter was really big at all. I think Twitter came out like right around when my blog started. Yeah, it took another couple years before people were really using it that you would. You would go read other people's book blogs and comment on them. Like, try to leave thoughtful comments so they would notice you and then they would come to your book blog. And over time you would sort of.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Get to know each other.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right.

[Vanessa]

RSS subscribe to their RSS feed. You might link to them, they might link to you. And over time it built up and like more and more people started blogging. Then we all got on Twitter and started talking to each other. So the way that Jeff and I originally knew each other was from commenting on each other's blogs and then talking on Twitter.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, wow.

[Vanessa]

Right now I think Substack has some of that vibe that you subscribe to people's substacks. You can recommend their substacks as things that go to your subscribers. Maybe they read yours. The linking kind of functions in the same way. So that networking piece feels a little.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Man, how bad would we have murdered for Substack?

[Vanessa]

Oh, my God.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Discoverability along our own bloggers.

[Vanessa]

The charts of like by topic, like these are the rising ones in literature or in the art, the connectivity.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So that's how we did it. And mine was anonymous initially. And I don't really.

[Vanessa]

I thought you were like a 70 year old man.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Listen, you're not wrong in a lot of ways, but like, I was 30ish. I guess that's no. Is that right?

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. It feels like a long time ago. But also I was an adult. Well, I was in grad school and I wasn't sure if like applying for jobs, people gonna Google my name. I just wasn't sure.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

If it was. And I, I wasn't caring. So for me it was. I thought it was cool the way people were writing about books in these spaces. The two that were my gateway drugs were Maud Newton's and Mark Darvis's Elgin Variegation. They were more literary blogs. I don't know how I found them. No idea. And they linked out to other people. Then I started finding some of this stuff and I just wanted to write about books in a way that wasn't academic. That's how I cared about it. I think. What can you do? That sounds like you would be my advice because I was, I mean even in a non academic space, I was a little more academic. I was a little bit more world's most reasonable man. Let's take a look at this. I remember when Margaret Atwood shared my close reading of the first sentence of her novel. And that was like a big deal but like it was different. Right. People weren't really doing that. And it's something I could do. I think that's if, you know, Rebecca had a bigger readership than I did. But I think that people that like me was. They wanted that. And the danger is that you write what you see other people writing. But then you're going to be the second, third, fourth best version.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, I think that's great advice. Like don't try to retrofit what you see working for other people or what might be trending if it doesn't fit for you. My experience, like I know exactly how I found out that book blogs were.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, really?

[Vanessa]

I don't think I know this. Yeah, I was working at Barnes and Noble. This was like I had dropped out of grad school. Bob and I had moved to Richmond. My plan was work at Barnes and Noble for like a year and find myself. And I was the community resource manager. So I did events. One day this author comes in to pitch me on having an event for her in our store. And she left me a flyer and she linked to a particular blog that I had never heard of. I was like, what is this? It was the literary housewife Jennifer out there somewhere. Everybody's faces are.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because everyone had a blog rule. I forgot that was super important. Like you have on the list of your site.

[Vanessa]

Right. And so she was Like a local author. She wasn't citing, like New York Times reviews. She had a quote from something called the Literary Housewife. And I was like, what is this? And I went into my office at the back of the Barnes and Noble and I went to the literary housewife. You know, WordPress.com or whatever it was, and like down the rabbit hole of like, oh, my God, this is just a normal person. Like, she had a full time job doing something completely unrelated to books. She was doing this in her spare time. Other people were reading and commenting. She was pretty popular already for what the size of the book blog world was. And I think like three weeks later, I was just like, fuck it, I'm gonna. I could do this. I like books. I'm gonna try it. And I just like, got myself. I don't even remember if it was.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Blogspot or WordPress and WordPress Blogger Blogspot.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There was name, there was a couple of them.

[Vanessa]

And like, at the time, you had to teach yourself like a little bit of HTML to do it. And I started. I just did exactly what we just described. Like, I started writing reviews of what I was reading. I had access to some arcs because we would get them at the bookstore. Then publishers started, like, reaching out. And I think I was just early enough. Like, I was just like a year or so before you. I was a little like irreverent and willing to just like say it if a thing wasn't good, which I think it used to be, like, controversial and maybe uncommon in the bookish space. I like, branded it for a while with like, pinup girl styling, which was different from the like, really dainty housewife kinds of stuff that a lot of people were doing. But mostly it was just lucky. Like, it was just a time before things got really big.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's so hard to. To not or it's hard to relay how much that can matter.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, like, if you listen to a lot of like, news and politics podcasts, then you start to realize that all of those people know each other because they all started at the same time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

At Vox, like 12 years ago, 20 years ago.

[Vanessa]

And book blogging was like that in like 2008, 2010. Like, we all. There were several dozen of us, we all knew each other. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So knowing that, that felt to some degree a little bit like luck and a little bit like your own effort. What is the advice piece that you have for somebody who is now using a tool more like substance.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, I think a lot of the, the specifics are different, but the idea is the same as, like, comment on someone's thing. How are you gonna let people know you exist? Right. You need do things. You need to have something that if people find your thing, they're gonna like and subscribe to or whatever, and they need to have a chance to even like it and find it in the first place. So those are the two things. Now, there's a lot of ways of doing that, but yeah, I mean, what is this? And I do think. I do think it's important and maybe I'm a corporate shill at this point, but like, to think about what people might be interested in. Like, if you're interested in your writing for yourself, that's great. If you want more people to read you, you need to think of your writing as a service. Like, what are you offering people that they can't get somewhere else?

[Vanessa]

Yeah, I think that's it. Like, what is a gap in the market? Or either something that no one else is doing that you could do or something that is done, but you could put a different spin on is an interesting way to think about it. I also think substack especially rewards like, regularity because there's some algorithm stuff happening there. So getting yourself on like, like a regular posting schedule and also something sustainable for you, don't commit to like every day and burn yourself out in terms.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Of, like, how to grow. I mean, this is still true, like, guest post. So this would be. You have something, you write something, maybe there's someone you like, there's a bigger audience, you say, hey, I've got this piece. Or you'd be interested in this piece. Would you be interested in running on your site? I think you'd be a good fit. The worst they can say is no. A lot of people are interested, right. They can take that Thursday off. They can introduce something else. So I think if you can think about, like, I don't know, and it doesn't have to be that much bigger. Again, the early days. If you grow 12% a quarter, it's going to take a long time.

[Vanessa]

I think mainly just like, think of it as an ecosystem and be a good participant.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Then a related question, actually, that you'll probably answer very quickly, but just to get this one is from Lindsey, which is what is your experience, opinion or understanding of substack?

[Vanessa]

Oh, I have such a substack subscription problem.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. This person also asked, are we entering a substack summer?

[Jeff O'Neill]

And so.

[Vanessa]

Oh, girl, I've been in a substack summer.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yep, it's been a substack spring.

[Vanessa]

It's been a substack couple years for me. I mean, I love access to writers doing their own thing and how writers that have been in more traditional outlets go to Substack and that's where they get to be weird or like, that's where they get to really follow their particular interest. And then they form little communities around it and you start like. And then they bring in their friend who also has a similar weird interest that they think you'll like. And so then you discover other writers. I've had to weed out a bunch of them because it was becoming a problema. It was one of those things where I just wasn't going to look at.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

How many of them there were.

[Vanessa]

My experience of it has been really positive. I think Substack's recommendations are good, but mostly the writers who are doing well there tend to do a good job of referring other good sources.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's nothing special about Substack, save that they were the one to do it. Because I think what people didn't realize writ large is how many people. Well, again, this is real back to the house stuff for people who don't know, but like for what percentage of readers or subscribers or newsletter subscribers to a substack will pay something. Now again, don't get your hopes up, but that 3 to 5% might is a big deal and people didn't know that. And we've been. People have been calling peak individual creator subscription for like the last five years. At some point there will probably be some fees fatigue. We also had a recession or, you know, we haven't had something like that happen, which people are going to go through and start doing that stuff. But anyway, that being the case, Substack made The bet that 5% of people would pay 7 or $8 a month to people they like reading. And you don't have to have that many subscribers for that to start mattering for writers, especially as a side gig. Because the thing we didn't say about our blogs is how much money do we make from our blogs?

[Vanessa]

Not any directly from readers.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes, not any directly from readers.

[Vanessa]

Even like when mine was the most monetized it ever was, it was like maybe a thousand dollars.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, maybe. And. But like you can. If you get 10,000 subscribers and 5% of them are going to give you $7 a month, you're looking at 3, $500 a month. That is a lot of money for someone just that wants to write. It may be not enough to, you know, replace your day job necessarily, but maybe eventually, in combination, you can go half time. And then the other thing is the network that they built a social network on top of it and email works and people still care about that. And writing matters. Like there's sort of three things that they all got right. Substack didn't invent any of those. Yeah.

[Vanessa]

That it's blog posts that go directly to your inbox is the magic of it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And we didn't even think about that 15 years ago. If we had started cultivating our email. Email. Even from br, we didn't have an email for like the first four or five years. I think it was. So like the email is a durable. And I've said this before, I think I wrote it in today book. If someone launched a social network today that said there's no algorithm, everyone has it and it's free. They'd be like, that's a trillion dollar social network.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Excellent.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We're going to go into Will that's personal for a bit. Just to shake it up and make you think a little less hard. This may or may not involve you in a tangential way. I'm pointing at Jeff's daughter. Jeff.

[Vanessa]

He's very suspicious right now.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You seem like an emotionally mature and compassionate person. However, every now and then you'll mention on the show that you don't like pets. So I have a two part question. One, why is your otherwise delightful personality stunted in this way? And two, how do you cope with your children's deep resentment of you? By the way, I love your show in spite of this failing.

[Vanessa]

Thank you, Melanie.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I would say it's my enduring charm and good humor. Humor that makes up for the rest of.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Does that work, Ro?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. It's not that we don't like pets. We enjoy other people's pets. We don't want.

[Vanessa]

I think you feel about pets the way I feel about children. I love other people's. I also love giving them back.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And I think as much as anything, it's. We just don't want to deal with it. Right. Like, yeah, Michelle and I are very busy. We have the kids and also living in New York in a small apartment with kids.

[Vanessa]

Not a metabolite.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Again, if that's something you love, great. But if you're marginal, if you're on the fence about it, that's a great way to be pushed to one side.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Sure.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I don't, I didn't just never as a kid had a abiding love of like, I like the pet, but it's a lot of work and effort. And just now the kids, they'll be thrilled to have their own pet someday. I don't know, Rowan, you would if we had a cat. Would you be ecstatic? I stacked the deck on that. Answer that there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The kids are all right.

[Vanessa]

I appreciate our listener for coming with some sass.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And my brother has dogs, so they get to visit from time to time and all the time. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Wonderful.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Now we've gotten that out of the way. Quick, easy one here. What's your reading setup? Do you have a favorite chair, something you like to drink? Obviously the a pet who joins you is not a thing for one of.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The people in this conversation.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Are you a reading on the go, waiting in the car kind of person? Yeah, think so.

[Vanessa]

I'm not particular about this at all. In the same. I don't have a writing set up either. Like, wherever I happen to be is where I will be. Like, Bob and I are living room people. Like, couch people at our time together at home. And so a lot of my reading happens on the couch. I'm not a always have a book in your purse person. They're heavy. It's annoying. I don't want to carry my iPad around. I don't like reading books on my phone. So if I'm out sitting in a waiting room somewhere, I'm probably, you know, scrolling for dopamine hits on an app that I hate.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

But in terms of reading, like, I'll do it anywhere. We talked on a one of our company calls recently about, like, things that are overrated about summer. And someone said reading outside, and I tend to agree with that. Like, I tend to like the idea of reading outside more than most of my experience. But I live in the south where there are like, seven weeks a year where it's optimal.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Optimal, yeah.

[Vanessa]

But from where I'm sitting on your couch in the Pacific Northwest, it's going to be 60.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Sounds pretty nice in July.

[Vanessa]

Like, I might feel differently about it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I also don't have a durable. I'll read here in this chair. I'll read in that spot. I'll read in that spot and that over there, wherever there's like. And I tend. What I tend to do is go in, like, waves of, like, I'm going to do a bunch on my iPad for a while, and then I'm just all into print and then I'll be back on one of my Kindles. And I don't know why this happens. It seems to be the phases of the moon. Is this what happens when Mercury is in retrograde well, we should read that.

[Vanessa]

Astrology book and then we would know.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm sure that happens. And then my audio between podcast and audiobook is just kind of whenever there's a moment.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, I'll put that in whenever. That's how my audio listening is too.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't know if you have an ideal reading set up. Trying to think.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Sounds like we're all a little bit mood driven about, like, just what am I feeling in that mood?

[Vanessa]

I'll read. I mean, mood. Most of the things that I have are digital galleys, so most of my reading happens on my iPad. But if we're talking about something on the show or I want to, like, engage with it deeply, I do read it in print.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, this is weird. Like, I don't think about, like, I wish I was there reading right now. But when we first moved to Portland, the house wasn't ready yet and we were waiting on our furniture. So we stayed in a friend's apartment for a while that they were gracious enough to share with us. And it was downtown Portland. It was in the Pearl and, like, in the far north end. And it was like, at the end of the Pearl to, like, overlook the river. And they had a big window and a couple of recliners.

[Vanessa]

Sounds great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And reading at dusk as the lights came on, I think about that, but I don't. It's not like I want to go there, but, like, those moments, maybe we're in a new city and it was a time to relax. Like, if I fantasize about my ideal reading set up, like, at a window overlooking the city as the lights go down. Sounds pretty great.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. People who know me know that I romanticize my reading at all costs if I can, and I will.

[Vanessa]

Absolutely. Tell us about yourself.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, I think part of this is facilitated by being single and unattended, attached to kids. Right. So, like, I can just do these kinds of things. But, like, I absolutely enjoy. I want to read at dusk in a gorgeous window. I will find a tea shop that has, like, a cozy chair that I.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Can do that expression.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I've read in many a hotel lobby library.

[Vanessa]

If I could just, like, go sit at airport gates. I love this. I think my favorite place to read is an airport where it's just a white noise.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I can't always read on the plane or I'm not interested always. And I've got to do Jeff's weird movie theater sometimes times. But, like, if. If the vibe is right on a plane. Like a night. Yeah, that feels Like I could do a 36 hour. Maybe I could make it to New Zealand or something. Yeah.

[Vanessa]

Like if you just can commit to forgetting, you know, that WI fi exists on airplanes, you can get really excellent reading time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, right. What's your. So where your ideal reading spot is where you just like to go voyeuristically try.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But yeah, wherever.

[Vanessa]

She can be a little.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, whatever.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I can be a little extra. Which is like no surprise if you know anything about me, because that's just.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Sort of the way it is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

My small lighting some candle reading story is that I. When I first.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, you read in the bath, which is weird.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We all know Rebecca reads the bathroom.

[Vanessa]

We are jealous.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it's in the bathroom.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Let's have a bathtub.

[Vanessa]

But a house with an old tub. You got.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, you've got that thing.

[Vanessa]

The tray. The bath tray.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, when I first moved to Portland, I decided I was going to do a whole thing and go sit at Laurel Horse park for anybody who's local to Portland Park.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I brought.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean I brought the picnic blanket. The picnic. I went and bought a book. That book happened to be a Jessamine Stanley book. It wasn't quite a dress, but it was a romper. It was a great situation. I opened up my sandwich, a dog came and wanted to take said sandwich. I said, no, you can't have said sandwich. And that dog took the book that I had only owned for approximately 17 years. Ran away with it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Not the sandwich.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, because I said no to sandwich. It's fine, I'm taking your book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Everything. He's like, all right, well, I get plan B here.

[Vanessa]

Angered the old gods that literally, that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Jessamine Stanley, I owned it for 17 minutes on Hawthorne. And then he ran away into the off leash section of Laurel Horse park. And I never, never to be seen again.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think what you see there is a pet owner scam that then got recently corre.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Then I sat there looking cute with my sandwich and I had no book. So I just sat there on the picnic blanket and kept on eating my sandwich. It was a day. So anyway, would you do it that.

[Vanessa]

Way again or would you give him the sandwich and keep the book?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It was a really good sandwich. So, like I wanted it for myself.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But you know, Sophie's choice. Yeah, let's do another sponsor break. We can do a few more.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Today's episode is brought to you by a flame and fury by Michaela Bridge.

[Vanessa]

With heart pounding pages full of enemies.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Vanessa]

And Iron Widow and it will be your next obsession.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Vanessa]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

Before, which is deadly Phoenix Racing. Yes, Phoenixes are the new Dragons, just so you know.

[Vanessa]

So make sure to check it out.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And thanks again to a Flame and.

[Vanessa]

Fury by Michaela Bridge for sponsoring this episode.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Today's episode is sponsored by Harlequin Publishers of let's Give Em Pumpkin to Talk About By Isabel Popp Textile artist Sadie Fox did not sign up for this when she agreed to come home to Pee Blossom, Indiana. It was to care for her father's beloved pumpkin patch. The deal was that just for the summer, she would grow a ginormous pumpkin, win the Indiana State Fair's pumpkin contest, and finally win back her father's grudging respect. Instead, a horde of wild hogs destroyed the entire patch. Which is precisely when the annoyingly sexy sunshiny next door neighbor shows up. Josh Thatcher is a tech millionaire who traded in the office for growing gourds including experimental squash hybrids. And for the life of her, Sadie can't understand what he sees in her sweary tattooed prickly self or why he's offering to help his biggest competitor. But a storm fueled kiss proves that there's something growing between them. Maybe it's just an attraction, maybe it's more. Whatever it is, it's already bigger than Sadie's fast growing pumpkin or the secret that Josh has been hiding. This is a spicy small town fall romance that you can read in one sitting. The perfect kind of read to transition from summer to fall. And this book is by one of our very own Book Riot contributors, Isabel Popp. The book is available [e-mail] thank you once again to Harlequin for sponsoring today's show.

[Vanessa]

Show when you hear Lululemon, you probably think of Align yoga pants. Weightlessly soft, like you're wearing next to nothing. That's why you see them in class, at the grocery store and in the park.

[D]

But did you know about skirts with.

[Vanessa]

Built in liner shorts so you can still jump for the Frisbee and tanks and bodysuits? With Align's iconic stretch you won't want.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

To take it off.

[Vanessa]

And with endless style options, you don't have to shop in store or [e-mail].

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right Vanessa, let's do a couple more.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This one is a longer one. I'm going to try to condense here. But so this person says, hey, I started, and you're gonna. You're gonna ride with me with this question as this person.

[Vanessa]

Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Also caveat, it started a men's book club in my area following the election last year. I attended a lot of book clubs where almost without fail, I was the only, if not the only, or one of the only sons of the year.

[Vanessa]

100% believe that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Spent the election hearing about men falling into the manosphere. And as a high school teacher, I'm also reading as being perceived as more and more feminine among young men.

[Vanessa]

Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So he basically started this men's book club, but it's not, quote, unquote, what it sounds like.

[Vanessa]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

He wants to, as he says, take down Jake Paul one book club at a time.

[Vanessa]

Beautiful.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And is essentially asking, like, you know, we started in February, we just reached double digits. His question is generally like, how do I advertise and share this space to make it more open and get more people to come without it sounding all men's rights? If you were a member of this club or you're trying to convince someone to join, how would you. And also any books that you would recommend.

[Vanessa]

There was a piece about this. I think it was in the Times recently. Yadan is.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I saw that.

[Vanessa]

He's Simon and Schuster, right? Is that where he is? So he's a publisher of one of the imprints of Simon and Schuster, and he has done the same thing with a group of men that he's friends with. And they're friends. And I don't know that it was like, directly in response to the election, but this is like specifically a book club for men where they get together and they actually are talking about. About the book and they're engaging on, like, what is it to be a man in the world right now? If you are. If you hold more, you know, progressive values and you want to be representing that kind of stuff. So I would look up that article. We'll try to find it for the show notes. I think a, like, referral basis recruiting method would be good. Like, you invite a couple of friends.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You gotta be tapped on the shoulder.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. And then they invite people that they.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Think would also be looking. Or is this over zoom? Like, why do we need more? Why are we interesting?

[Vanessa]

Maybe. Yeah, maybe just, like, get started. Don't worry about.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You've got 10. In my old teaching days going above about 20, it started to feel like people could zip out and not participate.

[Vanessa]

I think that your book selections will do a lot of the work of being like this is not a men's rights that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

As long as it's not all Jordan Peterson, Marcus Aurelius and I like Marcus, that's fine. But like, yeah, you know, if you've got.

[Vanessa]

It's not a men's grievance starter pack.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right, right. If you've got a couple of. Of ladies on there, maybe they're not all white people, maybe it's not all non fiction.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I wanted to actually shout out that the books that he's read, which I thought were interesting to name were the Power by Naomi Alderman Strillio by. And then also read the Sparrow by Mary Daria, which. That feels like old school.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean the point there might be that most people don't even know what those books signify.

[Vanessa]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you might think about like some more recent stuff that if you're advertising the pics somewhere or you're talking to people, it would sort of work as a signal of what kind of vibe is. But I think if you invite people that you trust to be on board and then they get into the swing of it and they start to like what sort of one by one invite folks you can grow organically.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm also a big fan of just saying the thing outright. Like describe in two paragraphs what you yourself want out of it and then that will let the people you know.

[Vanessa]

What you're trying to do here, what you're.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What you are looking for for yourself. And that'll. That was great.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's great.

[Vanessa]

And may your efforts succeed.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, yeah, I love.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Let's know what the hits were. What were the ones that were.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it sounds like they really dig speculative litvic. So the other ones anyway.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Because all. It's all speculative.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This person Katie is asking for audiobook recommendations. Let me give you some caveats. Specifically books that are quote unquote, better in audio listened. Heartbreak by Florence Williams back when y' all first started talking about it. Has loves non fiction but has exhausted the exact recommendation I was about to give which was Patrick Ratten Keefe loves investigative journalism. Some dad bought books. Recent favorites include country of the Blind. There's always this year Splinters man.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You've read the ones.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. That was the main reason why I wanted to say some of the ones because they've read Crying in H Mart. They've read Pork Dork, they've read Miseducated. So be ready when the luck happens. Glad My mom Died. They don't usually go for celebrity memoirs, but non celebrity memoirs are Great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was just telling someone over the weekend, Born a Crime by It Persists is really great and it's so funny. I'm. I'll hit my hand. One of the books I'm going to talk about tomorrow is this American Woman by Zarna Garg, who's also a comedian. It's her memoir of coming of age and coming over from India and you know, becoming a stand up comic as an immigrant at 40. It's. I'll say more about. That one's really terrific. You know, it may be enough water under the bridge, Rebecca. That bad blood is not something that everyone has done at this point.

[Vanessa]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Or the feather thief or the dinosaur artist.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, that is our Quite the book riot run. That whole.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. Or even. God, what was the Jodi Cantor she said. She said Investigative. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

About a family member sent me a picture of them reading all the Beauty in the World from the Met with the book Riot blurb on it.

[Vanessa]

That's a good one. Put that on your list.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All the Beauty in the World is the Guy. It's a memoir about a guy who loses his brother. Brother dies and he wants to shake up his life. He becomes a security guard at the Met so he can be around the art. It's really terrific on that side too. Yeah. I'm just looking now. See. Oh my goodness. I have my big bookshelf in front of me. This was strategic that I could look. But audiobook, they're not up there because none of them are audiobook in that particular way. Yeah, well, the nights are just fiction.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. Is there any David Grann on there? David Grann tends to be.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Devil in the Wild City. Or was that Eric Larson?

[Vanessa]

That was Eric Larson. But Lost City of Z, The Devil in Sherlock Holmes. I mean, and he wrote.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Come on.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right now. Oh, no. What is the name of that movie? Killers of the Flowers of Our Flowers.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yep, me too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Wrote that, I think. I haven't done that on audio.

[Vanessa]

Oh, and the Tall Ships one David grand.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The the Wager, which James is reading right now. Now. Salito by Javier Zamora. That's one I'm seeing on my shelf right now. I did it on audio and then bought it because I wanted on the shelf.

[Vanessa]

That'll make you cry.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We'll make you cry. But it is unbelievably, restrainedly restrained and beautiful.

[Vanessa]

The all time Bob audiobook recommendation is Get Master and Commander and Sit by the Sea.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Pretty good. Profound and then ingrained and I can't remember the name right now. Sign.

[Vanessa]

Oh Nina. Oh, it's not on audio at all.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I looked for it.

[Vanessa]

What a bummer.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And great about being a woodworker. I like all of those. I do wonder about, like, you know, the Oliver Sacks are great on audio. If you're into the. The ones that are available on audio are terrific. From Scratch by Tim B. Locke.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

From scratch.

[Vanessa]

I'm still mad about that one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, Siddhartha Mukherjee's. Any of the Mukherjees are great on audio.

[Vanessa]

You know, I read all of those in print. But he has so much fun with language.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Mary Roach is fun on audio, too.

[Vanessa]

There's new Mary Roach coming this fall.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I know.

[Vanessa]

Great. Good question.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's a good audio book question.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Let's see. This one is a little bit of a local question. So Jeff, and I suppose this, which is somebody who will be. Gina is visiting Portland next month, so she wants to know where she could go. Oh, gosh. For the best donuts, ice cream and coffee. Do you have any tips or tricks for getting the most out of my Powell's visit?

[Vanessa]

I will just leave you here to talk about donuts and ice cream and coffee for an hour and.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

My bad. That is actually not Gina. There's two other questions, but this one's on sale. Sign.

[Jeff O'Neill]

How. Let's start there. Take a second. Or do not try to because there's just too much. I. I also would suggest browsing both entrances.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Where they curate a little bit more. And you can see the staff picks and do that way. But yeah. Pick a couple things. Maybe pick one that you love and maybe pick one you're of sort of fairly interested in and just browse the shelves because they're new and used side by side. You'll find things there you've never heard of. The cafe is pretty good. Take a break.

[Vanessa]

Oh, that cafe is lovely.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's a restroom. You need a code. Go get it. Sometimes there's a line, so don't wait till the last minute. What I'm saying about that. I know that first experience. I. I suggest getting there if you can. I like going there at night.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Night? Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

In the heat of the. Not the heat of the day, but middle of the day when it's really busy. Busy. If you can get there in the evening, it's. Especially during the week. It's doable. Yeah. Is that. Does that vibe with what you think.

[Vanessa]

Or what else you want to romanticize your bookstore life?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No. Again, this is. This is me all day. But yeah, I've absolutely loved going at night. It's just A thing. There's so many windows. So if you are in those period kind of front sections, you're, you know, just watching the car strive by and it's a whole thing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's a couple good bars in the Pearl, so if you buy a book and then sit there and read after buying something, it'll be kind of fun. Fun.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Clearly, I have done so. Yeah. That is absolutely my Powell strategy. Donuts. The thing I'm going to tell you is that you do not need to do. Nor should you, I don't think do voodoo. It is. Unless if what you're looking for is like Captain Crunch Crunch Homer donut.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And if that's what you're looking for, that is not shade, like, absolutely go for. But if we're like, oh, my gosh, I want a really good donut, that is not. I don't think the movement. People do love Blue Star. I also love Blue Star. They are a little on, like the bougie spectrum. So you one would think that Vanessa would love those. And they can be great. But sometimes I just want the classic donut.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Cocoa's underrated.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So I was gonna say Coco's is my actual choice.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's very straight ahead. They should be called standard donut. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like yeast. Folks, come here.

[Vanessa]

Now. I have a request for the rest of the week.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And if you are a person who likes a bougie donut, they all have great regular raised donuts, but they also have stuff like lavender and modules.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Can I can. If you're looking for a breakfast treat, I'm gonna. This is is heresy coming from me. I'm going to steer you away from Don. What I would suggest is going to Grand Central Bakery and getting whatever the Danish of the day is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Grand Central Bakery.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Bakery. If you're coming this summer especially, it's Berry Town usa.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And get the mar and berry or sour cherry or whatever berry. They're.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Get a berry thing wherever you are.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It is unbelievable. Another dessert, Another breakfast place that I think is better than most of donut places go to. Twist. Twisted. It's where they make.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Twisted everything out of croissant dough. Oh, so there's a cinnamon roll made out of croissant dough. There's like a muffin made. Rowan is nodding her head vigorously. What is it? You get the rose lavender one or the rose raspberry.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I knew I liked you.

[Vanessa]

Raspberry rose cruff.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And so it's a muffin in the shape of a croissant with, like, stuff down in the Middle of it.

[Vanessa]

Winner.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's like pull apart bread. It's. Everything's out of croissant, though. So that's another thing I would do there. Again, I love a donut, but, like, value of a replacement donut. Like, donuts are good everywhere. Like, I like. You do. But like, in terms of special Portland breakfast things, I would choose those things.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. Yeah. I 100 I.

[Jeff O'Neill]

When people say I'm coming to. It's not really a tourist city. Like, there's like three things to do.

[Vanessa]

Oh, Matt's barbecue tacos.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Matt's barbecue tacos is elite. That's on 50th and Division. What do you say, Rowan?

[Vanessa]

Porque. No.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Porque. No. If you like that. I mean, Vanessa is like, that's the best you can get here. But again, we're grading on a curve.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We're not. We're not doing Mexican recommendations.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. That's what. We're different things.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But Porcino is solid.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I'm not a beer person, but if you were. But if you were, if you like tiki drinks. Hale Pele is. You got to get there early. But it's phenomenal to do on that side. In terms of things to do. I like the Rose Garden. If it's.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was gonna say Washington park in general for anybody coming, which is also. Gina is the person who actually asked a separate question, which is If I have 12 plus hours in Portland, which is actually, I don't think as long much as you think, but I do think Washington park, which is where the Rose garden is, is a phenomenal.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Kind of the same generalist direction.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You can hit the Oregon Zoo if you wanted to, which is really cute. You can have.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. The Rose Garden.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. There's a whole lot going on there if you want to get some good, like northwest.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I think also, I mean, again, 12 hours is not much, but if we have a couple hours to get across the river, like, frankly, go walk off. Go walk division, like between 39th and 25th.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You can get it. Like, that's where, you know, Vanessa and I live right around there. But that's like a. People who live in Portland, like, Portland, like, that's where we make our bones. Not a lot of tourists there. There's a. There's a branch of POWs.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There's a slope. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Local there. Yeah. Other than that, I mean, there's the Japanese Garden, which is the way if you have a Washington park, if you have a car, you can get out to Multnomah Falls. It's 40 minutes away. It's pretty great. But it's going to be coffee.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You're going to find every two good coffee everywhere. Literally everywhere. So that's really going to depend on where you're staying. So you could do like the big ones people always heard of, like, sometime. But there's just every two blocks.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's like a cool smaller shop that you can go. There's a million.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is a new one that I really love. Northwest Portland. Ectica is really good. Anyway, you're. You don't need.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm gonna go eat at screen door downtown. There's one closest to Powell that like, it's a bit. You don't have to wait.

[Vanessa]

I can second the emotion for screen.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because there used to only one. One location that you have to wait a long time for. But that one downtown doesn't seem to have.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, it doesn't.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Let's brunch on.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's everywhere.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Vanessa]

Right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There you go.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There's plenty of Portland recommendations for you with two more. Yeah. And we're actually doing pretty good. We've got most of these covered. So this one is hopefully a quick one. But do either of you have a fear of flying or do you get nervous at all? With the numerous plane crashes that have been happening? This is a person who never used to be afraid. But it's feeling a little funny.

[Vanessa]

I think you're more. I don't.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'll get.

[Vanessa]

I just get on a plane.

[Jeff O'Neill]

New stuff has no bearing on me. I've got a little.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

If I think about it too hard.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You're like I'm in a chair in the sky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I don't. If I imagine myself looking at the plane that I'm in from the ground.

[Vanessa]

Why would you do that?

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's a great question.

[Vanessa]

On the wing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, so you can control everything you think at all times. Cool. Must be great to be Rebecca, Right? Vanessa, I am very much team.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, get me on that flying box. I'm good.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I also have a little motion sickness. Some of it is. And I'm. It's not comfortable.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, that's true. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

These are things I'm not really afraid. I'm not really afraid of flying, but just. I don't love.

[Vanessa]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know how to respond to, like, what to do about a fear of flying. Half a Xanax and learn some deep.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, honestly, one full Dramamine is like not the worst thing you could do.

[Vanessa]

I feel like I have sat next to people I think twice where they've just told Me, I'm a really nervous flyer. And, like, we. You just. Both times, the person has just been like, will you just talk to me? Take off. Like, just chatter, distract me, whatever. And I found it endearing. Like, it. It didn't feel like a. An imposition. Like, people. This is a thing. People have a hard time flying, and I would rather know that the person next to me is, like, going through with me. Like, sure. I'll just, like, rattle on at you about my dog and what I watched on TV last night or whatever. So, like, maybe vibe out the person who's sitting next to you. You and say something if you feel like you could.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm a big fan of saving a special thing to watch for the plane.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Same.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like, have something to look forward to. Rowan's nodding her head as well. Like, I'm. I haven't watched the new Soderbergh, the Black Bag with Baskin.

[Vanessa]

Oh, man, what a great movie.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Which I'm looking forward to. Like, the next time I'm on the plane, I'm like, I'm watching that. I'll load it up, and I have something to look forward to. Get yourself your little snack. Now's not the time to count calories on the plane. Get yourself your thing. Do it that way.

[Vanessa]

But, yeah, I mean, I truly believe in better living through chemistry. For a plain.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I do think that is okay. I think if you've got access to something or you can get to a doctor or you know someone that's got a can. Slide you half a zanny. Yep. That's not the worst thing.

[Vanessa]

It's 2025. Who doesn't know someone?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I've been offered a zanny by people I don't know.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So, yeah, I mean, I think they should have them right in the pocket next to the Biscott. Off with Xanax in it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

How did. How did you.

[Vanessa]

Still doing. Like, welcome to the plane. Here's your alcoholic beverage.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Correct.

[Vanessa]

Like, two milligram gummy. We'll talk to you in a few hours.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yep.

[Vanessa]

I see you soon.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I'm gonna give you an infused shard, and I'll see you in five.

[Vanessa]

Everybody's just gonna go to sleep. We're not gonna have any drunkenness on the plane. I'm deeply.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I love these suggestions. Oh, with that, we only have one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, let's do it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We're gonna get through them all.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Vanessa, well done.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This one's a kind of quick one, too. Is just this person who has insomnia and reads before bed to fall Asleep. But the book has to be a combination of like, boring enough that it doesn't wake you up, but like not super. Yeah. So basically, yeah, that like it doesn't. Can't be too good, can't be too weird. They've enjoyed Moby Dick for falling asleep, but it's too boring. Monte Cristo was good and interesting. 1q84 has been too interesting.

[Vanessa]

Okay, so maybe nothing that's like weird. Like QT84. You gotta. If you're. You don't want to go experimental.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So you're not in the, you're not.

[Vanessa]

In the Murakami zone.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know what might be good for that is Steinbeck.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And they did actually ask for like classics that are, you know, boring but good.

[Vanessa]

I mean, Dickens, like our Mutual friend.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was going to say that if you go onto most sleep based, you know, apps, et cetera, almost all of them have a giant section that is dedicated to just classics being read out loud.

[Vanessa]

Public domain.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's a public domain. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I feel like these kinds of things make it to those lists. So.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I wonder. This is not something I do. So I don't self I'm a good idea. But like a big chunky, interesting non fiction like Mukherjee, just to quote the patron saint of the VR pod. Like it's interesting but you're like, oh my God, I don't know what's gonna happen next. Right. Or something like that. Or a collection of essays might. Because you can stop after one. I don't know if this person's like falling asleep while reading. I don't know how to solve that.

[Vanessa]

Like. Well, our former co worker and friend Jen, who had hosted Get Booked when she was here, she does this, but she does it with like comfort. Reads like the bedtime book Rowan does. Yeah, the bedtime book is always something that she's read before.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's mine. I have to read it before because then I'm not engaged.

[Vanessa]

That's right. Like so you know what's coming. You're interested enough to be rereading it in the first place, but not so interested that it's going to like demand all of your attention. So that might be a place to go.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Truth would work because it's like you want the vibe more than the plot. I think you want to avoid things that are super plotty.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And that'll do it.

[Vanessa]

Thanks, Vanessa.

[Jeff O'Neill]

VanessaBookRide.com Listen for show notes. I'll try to link to this scary looking armature dental equipment selfie stick that I've got there she's email podcast bookrat.com come to pals if you if you want to and can in the next 24 hours on July 9th tonight. And thanks Rebecca Thanks Vanessa thanks.

[Vanessa]

Thanks so much for listening today. We hope you'll enjoy this audiobook excerpt from Playful by Design, written and narrated by Miriam Sandler. It's available now wherever books are old.

[D]

Somewhere along the way, parents got the memo that we needed to entertain our kids all the time. I like to say that we've been taught to believe that we should be the architects of our children's play while the kids are the construction workers. Meaning we come up with a plan and the kids execute it. But really, when it comes to activities that build problem solving skills, skills encourage social and academic development, nurture independence and self expression, and help work through emotions. We need to flip those roles. And if we're going to put kids in charge of their own entertainment, then we're also going to have to get comfortable with hearing that oh so fun phrase using the dreaded B word. I'm bored. But boredom is not a bad word. In fact, boredom is where imagination is born. Like any other skill, it takes time to get the hang of self directed, open ended play. With time and nurturing and lots of road tested tips from me, it'll get easier for you and them and eventually you'll realize what a game changer this new dynamic is for the entire household. For the parents, there's no more feeling overwhelmed and stretched in by unrealistic expectations about how to to entertain your children. And for your children, you're giving them the most beautiful gift. The ability to be independent self starters who are in touch with their own creativity. In short, everyone will feel happier, more energized, more fulfilled, and ultimately more connected. This is where playful by design comes in. These are thought thoughtful, dedicated, play enhancing spaces. Or in other words, they are stocked with activities based on your children's ages and interests and your tolerance for mess. I got you neat freaks. Intuitively organized and easy for kids to navigate on their own, easy to straighten up and keep that way. Nice to look at because it's part of your home. But let's get one thing straight. Creating an aesthetically pleasing, impeccably organized, fully immersive play space that looks like it came straight out of an Instagram feed does not mean buying more toys and it definitely does not require giving up an entire room in your house. On the contrary, these spaces call for open ended toys and activities translate things that require your child to supply the creativity the best part about open ended activities is that they can often be made using recycled materials. Think cardboard boxes, toilet paper rolls, bottle caps and egg cartons. Don't worry, I'll be giving you lots of inspo for what to do with all these things. Less stuff, not more. Ever notice the holiday birthday effect where tons of toys enter the house but your child is already bored of them a week later? That's because choosing from too many toys can be overwhelming for kids and can ultimately take the shine off once coveted playthings. Instead, I recommend following a toy rotation, something we'll be talking about in more detail later. But basically by making a small curated selection of toys and activities available available for a set period of time while the remainder is stored away, you'll not only spark new interest in their existing toys, but you'll also find yourself buying fewer toys each year A Dedicated space Any space, Truly. It could be an entire room or a tiny nook, a desk in a bedroom, a closet, a corner, or even a draw drawer. No matter the size of your home, there's a play space that can fit and this book will cover them all. Playful by Design is your blueprint for effortlessly designing, installing and maintaining your own upgraded play spaces that seamlessly evolve as your children grow up. Each chapter is devoted to one of a range of different spaces that can be mixed and matched to suit any household, because having more than one dedicated play space in the home is often what best suits a family's natural rhythm and can help you better tailor them to your children and their interests and grow along with them. The chapters that follow also reflect the many ways these spaces can look depending on the ages of the children using them, their interests, and how much room there is to work with. And they include tons of suggestions for how to maximize the use of that space, insight into how you can mostly use what you already own, and tips for materials you may need. But before you dig in, I'll walk you through the need to knows. This will include the psychology and benefits of independent play for all members of the family, what independent play means and what it does no one's telling you to abandon your kids, and it doesn't have to involve paint or slime. We'll also cover how to help your family transition to independent play. I'll give you plenty of talking points and prompts for how to help you set healthy boundaries and give your child or children a sense of ownership of the space as well as a secure sense of safety. How to talk to your kids about how exciting it is is that they can make these choices for themselves and how to reassure them that this does not mean Mommy and Daddy don't want to play. In fact, we'll discuss how, when you do play, you can do it in a focused, mindful way. I guarantee that you can put the phone down for 10 minutes. And last, I'll do my best to convince the whole family that it's not such a bad thing to make a mess every once in a while and within reason.