Surprising (Maybe) Data About American Reading Habits

Summary

Book Riot – The Podcast

Episode Title: Surprising (Maybe) Data About American Reading Habits
Date: April 20, 2026
Hosts: Jeff O’Neal and Rebecca Schinsky

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into new data from the Pew Research Center about American reading habits, providing a nuanced and at times surprising look at how, what, and how much Americans are reading. Jeff and Rebecca analyze the numbers, challenge misconceptions, and place the findings in the broader context of publishing, technology, and culture. There are also lively segments on adaptation news (notably Clara and the Sun), industry updates, and personal book recommendations, all delivered in the show's signature energetic, bantering style.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. American Reading Habits: New Pew Data

[21:53–33:17]

• Sustained Print Reading: Despite the digital age, print book reading remains robust. In 2011, 72% of adults reported reading a print book in the past year; today, it’s 64%.

  “I think that they're going to be surprised about how high it is.” – Rebecca [23:39]

• Format Breakdown:
  • Print: 64%
  • Ebook: 31%
  • Audiobook: 26%
• Overall: 75% of U.S. adults read some or all of a book in the last year.
• Self-Report vs. Time-Tracking: This Pew data (self-reported) is much higher than last year’s alarming 16% from the American Time Use Survey (time-tracked), highlighting how question framing changes the results.

  “So much of how results come out is dependent on how the questions are asked.” – Rebecca [26:17]

• Reading Volume:
  • 38% read 1–5 books/year
  • 13% read 6–10
  • 10% read 11–20
  • 14% read more than 20

  “If you read more than 20 books last year, you are in the rarest of airs…” – Rebecca [25:32]

• Book Clubs: Only 7% of respondents belong to a book club (10% of women; 5% of men).

  “That's rarer than reading more than 20 books a year.” – Jeff [29:50]

• Demographic Insights:
  • Audiobooks most popular among 30–49-year-olds (33%) and 18–29 (32%)
  • Older adults (65+) major growth opportunity: just 13% listened to audiobooks
  • 41% of 18–29-year-olds read an ebook in the last year
  • Significant racial/ethnic differences in ebook reading: 42% of Asians, 30% of whites
  • Women more likely to read (78% vs. 71% for men); not as drastic as often portrayed
  • White, college-educated women read the most

  “This gives some lie to the panic around men not reading.” – Rebecca [31:37]

• Interpretation: Jeff and Rebecca remark repeatedly how the data is less dire than assumed, even accentuating reasons for optimism.

2. Tech & Ecosystem Updates: Audio, Streaming, and Commerce

[08:09–20:00]

• Audiobook Wars: Audible vs. Spotify
  • Spotify’s Page Match feature lets users switch seamlessly between ebook and audiobook versions; data shows it increases audiobook engagement.

  “That is working. Folks are discovering that they can move between a print book and an audiobook and it's getting them to spend more time just listening to anything on Spotify.” – Rebecca [10:28]

  • Spotify now lets users order physical books via Bookshop.org directly from the app.
  • General trend: platforms aiming for all-in-one ecosystems to capture readers/listeners.
• “Buy-It-Now” Experiments in Streaming:
  • Amazon Prime integrating clickable ads and potential for in-show book purchases discussed.
  • Apple Books, Netflix partnerships with Bookshop.org, and vertical integration all mused as possible next steps.

  “Could there be a little pop up that says buy it now? Why not do it that way?” – Jeff [13:02]

• Skepticism about Silent Audiobook Clubs:
  • Book Riot readers had speculated that companies were trying to mimic the “silent book club” trend with audio. Hosts are unconvinced—listening is inherently solitary and multitasked.

3. Adaptations & Industry News

[19:15–21:53]

• Clara and the Sun (Kazuo Ishiguro adaptation):
  • Release date announced: October 23 (starring Jenna Ortega and Amy Adams, directed by Taika Waititi).
  • Hosts express both excitement and nerves about the direction, tone, and potential festival launch.

  “October is prestige movie season. So this, I think, means maybe it will actually premiere at one of the festivals or there will be some buzz.” – Rebecca [20:00]

• Oprah Book Club Missed Predictions:
  • Oprah picked Maria Semple’s novel Go Gentle; the hosts admit they didn’t see this one coming.

4. Book and Author Highlights

[35:27–39:16]

• Time 100 List:
  • Tyree Jones (“Kin”), Frida McFadden (now writing under her real name), and Yiyun Li recognized as notable writers.
• Discussion on Pseudonyms:
  • The functions of pseudonyms for authors, especially in genre and/or those with other professional reputations.

  “If you already have an established professional reputation, I understand… It also tends to intersect with stereotypes… or stigma.” – Rebecca [37:11]

5. AI, Books, and “Enhanced” Reading Experiences

[42:50–47:42]

• Character.AI’s ‘Books’ Feature:
  • Lets readers “role play” inside classics. Both hosts are deeply skeptical, likening it to the “enhanced ebooks” of yesteryear—technological novelties that rarely resonate with real book lovers.

  “Actually, this is an intellectual and artistic dead end. It just is… These are all in the public domain and they're only in this because they have some brand equity.” – Jeff [44:05]

  • “Nobody asked you for this. Someone is going to use this. But it's not the book people.” – Rebecca [46:15]

6. Recent Reads & Recommendations

[47:50–56:37]

• Go Gentle by Maria Semple
  • Rave review from Rebecca:
    • Middle-aged stoic philosopher, quirky friend-group "coven," accidental romance, black-market art intrigue.
    • “It is so much fun. I feel like I cannot be a good, objective judge of it…I want to be friends with this character.” – Rebecca [51:53]
    • Jeff considers buying it for his parents; both agree it's highly recommendable.
• Middlemen by Laura McGrath
  • Explores the history and central role of literary agents in U.S. publishing; provides concrete numbers, behind-the-scenes stories, and addresses the elusive definition of “upmarket” fiction.
  • Includes juicy “blind items” from agent interviews.

    “It’s wonderful… My favorite part…there are a bunch of blind items that are like, here's a story that someone told me about a book… The descriptions have just enough info that if you're one of the real heads and you pay attention to this stuff… you'll have a good time.” – Rebecca [55:31]

7. TV Adaptations: Margo’s Got Money Troubles

[58:52–60:08]

• Rebecca recaps her experience with the Apple TV adaptation.
  • Strong performances by Michelle Pfeiffer, Elle Fanning, and Nick Offerman.
  • Highly produced, true to the book, but Rebecca wonders how it will play for viewers unfamiliar with the novel’s plot.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You shoot them into the void and they kind of disappear into the event horizon of live podcasting.” – Jeff [08:51]
• “Spotify is not resting in the war for our ears.” – Rebecca [35:27]
• “Women are only twice as likely to be in a book club… I would have guessed five times more likely.” – Jeff [32:00]
• “So, you’re not getting any better at having relationships. No, you’re being worse at being a person. That’s what you’re doing.” – Jeff, on using chatbots for communication [42:40]
• “It’s like taking an edible and going to watch Wizard of Oz. Is that the best or worst way to do that? We're going to find out here real quick.” – Jeff, on reading Ben Lerner after jet lag and a marathon podcast session [63:00]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |--------------|------------------------------------------------| | 08:09–13:14 | Spotify v. Audible & ecosystem strategies | | 19:15–21:53 | Clara and the Sun adaptation news | | 21:53–33:17 | Pew Research: U.S. Reading Habits Deep Dive | | 35:27–39:16 | Time 100, Frida McFadden and pseudonyms | | 42:50–47:42 | AI in “Books”—Skepticism/Enhanced Experiences | | 47:50–52:38 | Go Gentle by Maria Semple—Review & Rec | | 54:00–57:37 | Middlemen by Laura McGrath—Review & Inside Info| | 58:52–60:08 | Margo’s Got Money Troubles—TV adaptation |

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Tone and Style

Conversational, witty, at times irreverent, but always rooted in industry acumen and a love for books and reading culture. Jeff and Rebecca seamlessly blend editorial analysis with banter, personal anecdotes, and friendly ribbing, making complex industry topics accessible and entertaining.

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Useful Links (Mentioned in Episode)

• Full Pew study on U.S. reading habits (see show notes / podcast episode page for direct link)
• More info on Book Riot’s Zero to Well Read Patreon feed

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This summary captures the episode's major threads and memorable style, providing listeners—old and new—a comprehensive map of both data insights and the friendly, bookish energy that defines Book Riot’s flagship podcast.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Merit beauty.com Focus features in Blumhouse present Obsession.

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guy no one knows, Be careful.

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I wish Nikki loved me more than anyone in the entire world. Who you wish for. Obsession is 96 fresh on rotten tomatoes.

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I love you so, so, so, so much.

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You have been warned.

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Obsession. Rated R under 17. Animated without parent. Only in theaters May 15 with special engagements in Dolby. This is the Book Riot podcast. I am Jeff O'. Neill.

[A]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[B]

And this is our 15th podcast we're recording today. 15 or 16.

[A]

We're into the third hour here, so the wheels probably gonna come off. We're a little loose, but good things happen.

[B]

You're saying they're still on? That's good. That's good. That says something about my performance so far. I was wondering.

[A]

My wheels feel more on than off right now. And I know, I mean, you just got off a plane after a long trip yesterday, so you're holding it together. I'm impressed.

[B]

Yeah. We may or may not have recorded a lengthy office hours for zero to rotate about our high school experience. For reasons that will become clear a little bit we are doing on the Patreon for this show the A Book Club for Translation by Ben Lerner, which I read in a single sitting on the plane last night. So that was an experience, a transcription. Pardon me. Yes, and we're going to talk about that. That's going to be our last thing.

[A]

Interesting moment to read that book.

[B]

Where is a non interesting place anyway? We'll get all to that.

[A]

That's true for Ben Lerner especially. I was wondering if you were having Oneills theater where you watch a bunch of you make a bunch of deranged movie selections when you're online.

[B]

No, I didn't. What did I watch on the way there? I don't even remember. I was mostly reading, frankly for Zero well Read. I actually don't have a frontless foyer, but I did buy one thing that's on yours. So I'm excited to hear about that there right now in the feed over on 0 to well read it's Gilead by the great Marilyn Robinson, which you've heard us talk about here. Almost half of you have read that. Yeah, when we did a poll there. Do we do it justice, Rebecca? It's hard to remember now.

[A]

I think we did. I felt really good about that conversation when it was over.

[B]

In the notes for this agenda it says housekeeping colon Gilead. And I was like wait, we talked about housekeeping too, which is Marilyn Robinson's debut novel. It's really just housekeeping for our things going on in our universe.

[A]

The housekeeping portion of this conversation and longtime be our pod Patreon members will or I guess now all Brpod Patreon members are gonna get a little something extra. This because the next Zero to well Read episode is a book that we recorded a book club episode for two years ago and then technology ate it so it never got published to the Patreon. But now we have done a zero to well read episode about it and I'm going to slide that into the Patreon for folks as well.

[C]

Today's episode is brought to you by W.W. norton Co. Publisher of one Leg on Earth by Pimi Aguda. This is one of my most anticipated of the year. It's set in Nigeria. There's mythology, there's lore, there's a dark mystery. So 23 year old Yasoya arrives in Lagos ready to start her new life working for a slick architectural firm. She finds a city of adventure and opportunity. But Yasoya's IDYLLIC version of Lego soon begins to seem naive, and its darker, stranger layers trouble her. Something is not right about Omi City, and as construction speeds ahead, stories of strange deaths in the city's open waters reach a fever pitch. And then, after a chance encounter, Yosoye discovers she is pregnant, a revelation which puts her on a collision course with an inexplicable force that is as seductive as it is deadly. Now this is from the author of the National Book Award finalist Ghost Roots. Ghost Roots is a short story collection. Like I said, I'm super excited to read this one. Make sure to pick up One Leg on Earth by Pimi Aguda and Thanks again to W.W. norton Company for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by New York Times best selling author Jack Campbell and Ethan Vault. The best in science fiction, fantasy lit, RPG and horror. The latest by Jack Campbell is Squad Kill, which is an action packed military science fiction adventure. It follows Navy Officer Oz Aquino who is put in command of a research starship dispatched to an alien planet. So the planets show signs of intelligent life. There are these ruined cities and skeletal, but the only living things are these adorable aliens dubbed squonks. And it all seems run of the mill until it isn't. Sounds like the squonks get a little squonky, if you know what I mean. So this is like Alien meets the Forever War. There's high praise for Jack Campbell coming from Brandon Sanderson who says, quote, it's an excellent blend of real science and space action. I enjoyed myself thoroughly from first to last page. Jack Campbell's also the author of 50 no. 12 series, several short stories, anthologies, novellas and non fiction pieces. So get into all of that once you pick up Squad Kill by Jack Campbell. And thanks again to 8th and Vault for sponsoring this episode.

[A]

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[B]

I've got some follow up from listener. This is from. Oh tell me Austin Lee. We asked on the last show, I think when we did the last old show title. Yes regime and it was November 20, 2023.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And the title was the prepositional phrase after trickle, which is terrific stuff.

[A]

The best part of those is scrolling back and being like I have no idea what we were saying.

[B]

Even 20 minutes later. I like I said that. That's something that came out of my mouth.

[A]

There were a few of them that I remember recognizing at the time like oh, that was a me thing or that was a Jeff thing. But most of them are just like we say words here and it's kind of a blackout state.

[B]

It really, it really does. You shoot them into the void and they kind of disappear into the event horizon of live podcasting. Austin also had some notes who works has worked at boutique marketing agencies about Story House, which I guess some people enjoyed my mini rant incredulity about that. And Austin points here is I don't want to ding the marketing industry completely. I mean other than there are a bunch of charlatans. I'm kidding. Brand recall and awareness. So let me, let me get this right. Brand recall as you remember, you've heard of it and awareness is if you've ever heard of it. Is that right? Is that what your understanding of this is?

[A]

I don't know. I. Yeah.

[B]

So Austin is suggesting that the thinking here from their email is the audible is feeling real competition from Spotify, which we have talked about and they're worried about top of mind awareness with consumers as being the place to get your audiobooks. I've called it the war for your ears. I've talked about this in today's books, in here and elsewhere. I don't even think it's about that. I think it's the place you go to listen to stuff. It's music, it's audiobooks, it's pods, whatever. Right?

[A]

Yeah. Yes. And Spotify just released some numbers earlier this week. It didn't make it into the agenda, but they announced that page match feature a month or so ago where you can take a picture of the page that you're on in a physical book or a screenshot of an ebook and it will take you to that screen spot to sync you up in the audio book on Spotify. They've released some numbers about folks who have been doing it and it has led to more listening hours on Spotify

[B]

from I would believe that.

[A]

And an uptick in audiobook engagement. So that's like. That is working. Folks are discovering that they can move between a print book and an audiobook and it's getting them to spend more time just listening to anything on Spotify. They're also going the other direction where now if you are listening to an audiobook on Spotify and you want the print copy, you can order it from bookshop.org right through the Spotify app. And that has just launched. So we don't have any really usage statistics about it, but they are trying to make it to make Spotify as sticky and like multi purpose as possible. That's where you go for your music and your pods and your audiobooks. And if you want to read a print book too, you can get that while you're at it. You don't have to leave the Spotify ecosystem and go to an Amazon website to order a print book.

[B]

Have you. Do you watch anything on Amazon Prime?

[A]

Not in a while. Like we have prime and so if there's something big coming up on it, we will watch it. But I haven't, there hasn't been a Prime series in a while. I've been interested in.

[B]

We had occasion to watch something on Amazon Prime. I do not recall what is. Oh, Sliding Doors. We were talking about that the other day, but we sat down watching.

[A]

Did you show it to the kids?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's one of Michelle's favorites. A quick sidebar on Sliding Doors. Two things about it. One is sometimes when you're using contemporary music you miss the boat. And I don't remember one song that is actually played during I saw this, I was like, these were real songs that happened in the 90s. I don't remember any of them. I was there, I was listening to music in 90s. I saw this movie.

[A]

Look at the Sliding Doors soundtrack.

[B]

And the other thing was I didn't remember how Much of that movie was dedicated to the guy two time in her. So much more of the two timing guy. Way too much. Anyway, so there's my two things on that. Anyway, I was on Amazon. It was on Amazon prime with ads.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which is a nightmare beyond reckoning to do anyway. And there are things in there where like the. There'll be an ad for something and there'll be like the little Amazon box with the ratings and you can like buy it now and click Buy it now and hook it up. And that got me thinking about a whole new avenue. So I'm assuming stuff with books. But I have long argued, as you have heard me say, and I said this in a meeting this week to somebody, that I want there to be like bookstores or like tables for books. I don't know how many copies of Project Hail Mary they didn't sell in the last six weeks because they just didn't have them there.

[A]

Put them in the lobbies of amc. Let's go.

[B]

Right. So just even one book. But my next thought was, if you're on Netflix and you're watching Pride and Prejudice or you're watching Guernsey Literature, could there be a little pop up that says buy it now? Why not do it that way?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, now that Spotify has this partnership with Bookshop, Bookshop, like has proof of concept for tech integration. And it would be very cool to see that because, like Netflix is not going to partner with Amazon. They directly compete.

[B]

No. And that's why Amazon is partnering with Netflix as a bot. That's what's thinking about.

[A]

Yes, but like, yeah, if there were. Or like I watched Netflix did the new adaptation of Forever by Judy Bloom. Like read the original Pop it up

[B]

there or hbo, they're showing heated rivalry by it with HP series coming. Whatever.

[A]

I'm going to talk about it later in this episode, but I watched the first three episodes of Margo's Got Money Troubles which came out on Apple TV yesterday as we're.

[B]

They have your credit card on file for your subscription. Just buy it now.

[A]

They have Apple books like you can buy and they have audiobooks and there. But there's nothing coming up on my screen. Like, I feel of two minds about this because I hate it. Like Bob watches football on Amazon when they have.

[B]

Oh, and you can buy people. You buy the players. They send them to your house.

[A]

When they run commercials, it'll be like scan here to place your bet on DraftKings.

[B]

Like, well, that's not great. That's. We need to have a conversation yeah.

[A]

Or like you know, some, whatever the product is. Like you don't even have to pick up your phone. It's just like if you hit enter on your remote it'll take you to somewhere because it's all in the Amazon ecosystem. I don't know that I really, I don't know that I want to do that when I'm watching Apple tv. It's, it's a disruptive viewing experience. But if I were running the text and like business development side of Apple, I think I would be doing a, like we could get some incremental sales here by selling people the ebook and the audiobook and, and for Netflix partner with Bookshop and I'm sure there's like some kind of revenue sharing something happening there. But.

[B]

Well, I was thinking, I mean again I had, then I had several accordant thoughts on it. So I was watching Night of the Seven Kingdoms when that was on hbo. I thought this series was pretty good. I haven't talked about it here. It was good. It's very good. It's the best Game of Thrones since the first couple of seasons of the regular Game of Thrones show. But they have like little ads before and after it for like their Game of Thrones app and then the companion podcast.

[A]

Yep, yep.

[B]

And I'm like okay, I see what you're trying to do, but could you take those three or five seconds, say click here to buy the tie in edition. Would that make them more money? They have to do the revenue split. But then that got me thinking back to Paramount Books, what we were talking about.

[A]

Oh yes.

[B]

How about this little vertical integration going so you don't have to do the revenue split. You can get the whole thing right from there that way. That would be. And then that got me all the way back around to Apple Books as an imprint. Ah, I think that should happen. I. This is more than a half baked idea. They get an ebook, they do the audiobook, they could do the exclusive, they could do the print for prestige. Like just do. There's a whole bunch of books written about just, just make it the Apple books.

[A]

Yeah, just like find the manuscripts, things that you want to adapt and publish the book and do the adaptation. Synergy baby.

[B]

Overpay. They could, they're you know what, they're not ashamed to overpay for a TV show right now.

[A]

Yeah. No, I mean Margo's got money troubles,

[B]

is a beautiful and doesn't need to be that fancy. Yeah.

[A]

No. Michelle Pfeiffer, Nicole Kidman, recently Oscar nominated Elle Fanning Nick Offerman and it looks like a billion bucks and like that's it's way out. It was a good book. But like that's a mid list novel and it like way outclasses the production value, way outclasses the lessons in chemistry

[B]

that they spent all that money on that book at the same time. So those are some. That's one listener email. You can all take that and go make your fortune on there. Christie wrote in to say that maybe the story house is trying to capture some of the popularity of silent book clubs, which we covered on annotated a while ago. They're all over the place now. I like this effort, Christie, but I think we missed this one for this reason. When people go to silent books club, you like, you go to a bar and you read your physical book and you sit there and like you sit and read and that's the only way you can do a physical book. You ought to sit there quietly and read it. Nobody I know when they're listening to an audiobook, sits down in a chair, puts on their headphones and like stares into space.

[A]

The great multitasking.

[B]

It's just not. This is, it's, it's, it's one of the great things that let us get more reading life books into my life especially my kids were super young, was the audiobook many a night rocking the kids to sleep, warming up the bottle, firing up the audiobook. But I just don't think it has the same appeal for 20 people to sit in a room and put on a headphones because you know you can do right now is go to a bar and people have got their headphones in. In their room, in a room sitting together. So I don't think this one holds water for me, but I like the

[A]

I want lounges where your technology is verboten.

[B]

More of that's right, yeah. Forbidden for everyone out there right now. Are we still taking moms and dads?

[A]

We are, yeah.

[B]

One more.

[A]

This is the last week. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So there's that.

[A]

Yeah, you can email us. Yeah. What's podcast bookriot.com for your mom's dads and grads requests.

[B]

I guess we'll save this for your front list foyer. But I got a bunch of people forwarding that Oprah picked Maria Semple Go.

[A]

Yes, I did see that.

[B]

And I think when we were doing the hot List, people were saying we had said that. I don't remember. We picked against go the the simple. We had picked the other one. So people like, oh look, you actually Picked the one you didn't talk about. So I'm writing this down. This is the first. Unfortunate. Rebecca, we got something wrong. It's been a great streak for us, you know, more than 1200 episodes. We got some. We miscalled something.

[A]

I've been waiting my whole podcasting career for someone to email me and tell me I got something wrong.

[B]

Right, Right. Yeah. Live. Live to tape. Podcasting, when you have the whole Internet disposal is not for the faint of heart.

[A]

I'm so delightful.

[B]

Yes. Okay. Is that the news? That's everything. Moms, dads, and grads. If you're listening to this on Monday, the 20 whatever, it's going to be 20th. 20th. You can still email us, but that's last day. All right. So Claire and the sun, we were speculating at some point that this was maybe a turkey and they were hiding it under their bushel. And at the very least, it's coming out.

[A]

Yes. So Cinemacon happened this week, and lot there's been a lot of movie news, and a lot of those movies are adaptations. So we've gotten a lot of updates. But the relevant one for this podcast is that the adaptation of Kazuo Ishiguro's Clara and the sun, which stars Jenna Ortega as Clara the robot and Amy Adams as the mom, is coming. It has now a Release date of October 23rd. This is adapted and directed by Take a Waititi. I'm so nervous, but the fact that they're putting it out is encouraging.

[B]

Late in the year. No dump uary. This is, you know, this is October 23rd. Not.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's not Christmas Day, but it's not bad. What do you think?

[A]

That's. I mean, October is prestige movie season. So this, I think, means that, like, maybe it will actually premiere at one of the festivals or there will be some buzz. Like, I'm gonna be nervous until the crit from whatever embargoes they have and allowed to start talking about how this is. And I'm nervous about it for Clara and the sun reasons. But also the reason we were talking about it recently is that Waititi is slated to direct the adaptation of James by Percival Everett. And that also makes me very nervous.

[B]

But it seems harder yet than this to me. I don't know anything about directing, but

[A]

if this goes well, I will feel a lot better about it.

[B]

But will, it's gonna be hard to bury an Amy Adams, Jenna Ortega vehicle. Yeah, I'm predicting now best supporting. Well, Clara would be a lead actress role. I was gonna say, I was gonna make. I would. Can I get odds on Jenna Ortega for best supporting Actress for the robot? But she may be.

[A]

She might be a lead actress. Yeah.

[B]

What about Amy Adams in a supporting role role as the unhinged mom who wants to clone her daughter?

[A]

Real pot. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Real potential for that. We'll see. We will see how it goes. But it does have a release date, so it's not just in Hollywood. Purgatory. October 23rd.

[B]

I think I will feel better as soon as I see the trailer. Assuming the trailer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's going to tell us a whole lot about tone and approach.

[A]

Yeah. They showed the trailer at Cinemacon. And then usually when that happens, those trailers hit the Internet within a couple of days. Like this is Project Hail Mary's trailer premiered at Cinemacon.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Last spring. So I think, I don't know, maybe by the next time we record a news show together, maybe we will have seen the trailer for Clara and the sun and we'll have a little. We'll have a little more clarity on Clara. But it is coming.

[B]

Yep. A big new study from the Pew Research Center. We talk about this almost every time it comes out. If we catch it about Americans reading habits here. Roughly 2/3 of adults say they have read a physical book in the past 12 months. Smaller portions say they've read an e, read an ebook, or listened to an audiobook. For me, Rebecca, it's always the graph, the longitudinal graph from 2011 when this started to last year. I'm going to let people guess here. Theater of the mind. You're on your own recognizance here. Let's give them this data point. In 2011, 72% of adults said they had read a print book in the last year. So this you're going now list. Dear listener, this is a real moment for you. How doom scrolled are you? Or how ostrich head in the sand are you about what has happened to Americans print book reading habits in the subsequent 15 years, which probably most people would say would be as disruptive to reading books as anything that's ever. Like you're looking at the printing press, maybe that movable type. Well, that is the movable time. No movable types. A little later after printing press. Anyway, long story short, we've got phones, we've got the Internet, we've got social media, we've got. Our brains are on drugs in a lot of different ways. Digital drugs. What number do you think it is now? Listener? Dear listener out there? What. What does your spidey sense tell you, okay, Rebecca, and I give you this answer. I posed this to you. You've seen this. You can look at this. Do you think people who just thought of a number in their brain are going to be surprised on the upside or downside of this number?

[A]

I think that they're going to be surprised about how high it is.

[B]

So I think so too. Upside, because you want to say what that number is.

[A]

It is that in the last 12 months, 64% of US adults say they have read a print book, 31% read an ebook, and 26% read an audiobook. Overall, 75% of American adults, it's like more than 8,000 people in this study said that they had read some or all of a book in the last year. So that like is much less degraded than other studies. Like, this is in sharp contrast to that study from last year that showed that only 16 of Americans reported reading for pleasure. I went and did some comparison when I was working on a piece about this for our flagship newsletter. And I think there's a couple things going on here. Like, okay, well the first is that this 75% saying that they've read some or all of a book in the last year is pretty stable since 2011. Like that overall percentage hasn't changed much, which is really surprising given I think all of our shared senses of what technology is doing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is a self report study that asks have you read some or all of a book in the last year? And people say yes or no. And then they ask them, how many books have you read? And there's some breakdowns about, about the quantities of books people read as well. The study from last year with the that very alarming 16 number comes from the American Time Use Survey, which is based on time tracking of how you actually spend your time. So people would have to record I was reading for pleasure or I was like they counted all kinds of readings. So like books and reading on the Internet and all sorts of things. So this might be high, this might be higher than reality because it's self report.

[B]

But I sure like npr, like NPR reporting stuff famously, but also like, like

[A]

some or all the sum or does a lot of work here. Like you can have picked up a book you heard about and read one page and technically answer yes to this question. We get more, you get more detail that 38% of the participants said they read one to five books in the last year. Yeah, 13% read six to 10, 10% read 11 to 20, and then 14% read more than 20 books. So if you read more than 20 books last year, you are in the rarest of errors among people in this study. I don't, I don't really know if we should feel things about this like it. So much of how results come out is dependent on how the questions are asked.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But there is a way of looking at this that at least they've got 16 years of longitudinal data.

[B]

That's what I. That's Morse. That is directional.

[A]

Yeah. And that the total like the overall percentage of people who say that they've read in the last year has been pretty steady since 2011 is pretty encouraging.

[B]

I think I thought it was interesting that. So if you combine the people that report reading between 11 and 20 books and more than 20, that's 24% of respondents. Which is about the same as those that say they read none. Which I think that's more encouraging than I would have thought that 24% of Americans have read 11 books. 14% reading more than 20 is more than I would have said. That's a nice.

[A]

That's more than I would have said too. That's almost two books a month.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Is a pretty high rate for people who are even like casual ish readers.

[B]

Right. There's a breakdown of book reading habits by education, age, race and some other factors. I just want to highlight a couple of things here that I found especially interesting. I. We have speculated and this has come up in meetings too when I'm pitching different or ad products for different kinds of readers. And I say I think a lot more younger people are reading audiobooks than maybe a lot of publishers think. And that really bears it out here. The highest number the percentage of respondents saying they've listened to an audiobook in the last year. The highest cohort among age group is 30 to 49. That's 33%. But 32% is an 18 to 29 for an audiobook. That can be a little confusing with print because often that demographic wins for print. But that's a lot of college age kids. Right. That get thrown in with that. But audiobooks and then ebooks as well. 41% of 18 to 29 year olds have read an ebook at the same time. But that's extremely interesting to me. And it's completely inverted from the Books on Tape Day. The cohort that's read listen to the fewest audiobooks is 65 plus. I actually think older people converting them into audiobook buyers is a huge opportunity that I'm not sure we know how to do right now.

[A]

It is. I. And I think it's, you know, partially because of how quickly technology develops and that the 65 over cohort are not as like, they're addicted to Facebook and farmville or whatever on their phones, but they're not engaging with media.

[B]

You can listen to audiobook while you play farmville. That's okay.

[A]

I mean, that would be a great use of. It would be an improvement upon the farmville experience.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

But yeah, like, how do you. It's probably an opportunity for, I would guess, Spotify. Like, there are older folks. This could also just be over indexing on my part because my parents are avid Spotify users. They love to just have music on all day.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And if I were going to try to convert them to listening to audiobooks, I would do it inside an app they're already comfortable with. I would do it on Spotify rather than, you've got to get a whole new account. Here's how Audible works. The credit system is confusing.

[B]

Oh, forget about it. Yeah, yeah. So if you want to take out print ads in the aarp, I think that's not the worst thing. I'm not joking.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know if you said the number. Only 13% of people 65 and over had said that they listened to an audiobook in the last year. So just a huge possibility there. And almost just a third of the number that we see with the younger cohorts. The other number that was really interesting to me here, and I honestly don't know what I would have guessed is it's only 7% of Americans are in a book club, 10% of women and 5% of men in the last year.

[B]

And so that's rarer than reading more than 20 books a year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I don't know what number I would have guessed.

[A]

It makes sense to me that, like, there are just more readers than there are book club participants. I don't know what I would have guessed either. It probably would have been. Actually, let me. I think I would have done something like book club readers must be, like, pretty much people who identify as having reading being an important part of their life. They're probably higher on that end. So they're also probably higher on just the volume of books read. And I would have gotten to something like, yes, but last year we heard that only 16 of all Americans read for pleasure. So I'm looking for like a small percentage of a small percentage. I probably would have come in at like 2 or 3%.

[B]

You've. Now, I cannot give an honest account to give my thought. That seems reasonable to me. Yeah. As we know. Again, link in the shownotes bookriot.com listen or in your podcast play right now we'll link to the full study. You know, white college educated women read the most books. That's what they do. Within that though, I think this in terms of within the same format. The biggest discrepancy is between 30 to 49 year olds who 33% of them listen to audiobooks and 13% of 65 plus an equally big gap between people with high school or less, 17% of them in audiobook college plus 35. So double there. So there's a huge gap there and it's, it's way different than the gap between any book in any format in college, which is 60 to 88. So it's a, it's a big jump dump, but not twice, which I found very interesting.

[A]

The other number just also worth noting is the gender gap that yes, it's not that big. 71% of men reported reading a book in the last year and 78% of women. So and this is a big study and it's a pretty representative sample of U.S. adults like this gives some lie to the panic around men not reading.

[B]

Yeah, maybe they're not reading upmarket literary fiction, but they, they are reading there. I One other one that jumped out to me is that apparently Asians really like ebooks because in the racial demographics, 30% of white people, 27% of black people, 29% of Hispanic people, but 42% of Asian folks have read an ebook. And the note here is for English speaker only. I don't know what, what confounding factor they may brought in, but among the racial dynamics, that one is the one that jumped out interesting to me on audiobooks it's super flat. 27, 25, 24, 24. So very, very even there, I notice. Yeah, that's kind of it. Rebecca, Women. This is the one I would have gotten wildly wrong. Around book clubs, women are only twice as likely to be in a book club. I'm looking at that. I'm still not quite grokking it. I would have guessed five times more likely. Easily five times more likely. So helpful to reorient ourselves there, I hope. Well, I hope if that, if that made you better, that's great and if it didn't make you feel any better, you are already feeling pretty good about the relative reading over the last ten years or so. On that side, good sleep is everything.

[A]

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[B]

talked about Spotify launching the option to purchase physical books. Anything you want us to say about that? We kind of wrapped that into the

[A]

first yeah, no that exists. It was rolled out on Android. I believe by the time this show comes out it'll be out on iOS devices. I have not tried this yet, but I'm gonna poke around with it just to see. I also wanna play around with the page match feature just to see. I don't tend to bounce between ebook and audiobook, but I think Sharifah mentioned that she did that with the warmth of other suns when we were preparing for zero to well read on that big nonfiction. I can see the potential there of like here I have some time to sit with my print book but but you want to get some pages in or get some listening time so could be could be helpful. But Spotify is not resting in the war for our ears.

[B]

No Time announced its 100 list, which is an interesting cross section of politics, culture, athletics, their time 100 most influential people. Three notable writers. I mean other people have written books but these are on here for writers Tyree Jones, Frieda McFadden and Yin Yun Li. Yin Yun Li probably is the most surprising of those. A writer of literary fiction quite Difficult in terms of the subject matter, yes. If you don't remember, she wrote her. The book she wrote last year was about the suicide of two of her sons within pretty short order, which is about. Of hard of a book to read, as I can imagine, and I do not think I will be reading that anytime soon. Terry Jones with Kin, which has gotten a lot of great press. You have read it? I have it on here on my nightstand. I think it's a good. It's a wonderful moment to shout her out. And then Freedom McFadden, of course, is selling all the books, and I don't think you have it here. We. We're out behind. From the. The pseudonym.

[A]

That's right. Yes. Frida McFadden came out from behind her pseudonym a week or two ago. I know this made it into Today in Books, but we didn talk about it on the show, and basically she just got tired of trying to keep the charade going, trying to hide it. But she's continuing to write under the name Frida McFadden because of course she is. That's the brand in.

[B]

In Frida in Sarah Cohen's Heart of Hearts right now. Are you like, God damn it, I've got to manage this? Or you're like, do you think it's cool? Like, where are you on pseudonyms? Have we done this conversation?

[A]

I. I think they serve a function for people. Like, if you already have an established professional reputation, I understand. But it. It also like, it. It tends to intersect with stereotypes and maybe some. Even some stigma that people have about a genre. Like, Frida McFadden is a physician. She was trying to keep her professional life separate from the books. I don't know anything more than that. Like, those are the facts that we have, but they're kind of. They're like pulpy, trashy, thr. Like, I would if it were me and I was a doctor and I had written a novel, if I thought it was like, high literary quality and I was going to get some recognition for it, I would publish it under my own name. Because you want, like, all the shine. I don't know what she was thinking when she initially did that, other than, let's just keep, like. Try to keep these two things separate. A lot of romance writers write under pseudonyms, and a lot of them are like, there's a really big cohort of romance writers who are. Are lawyers professionally. They start writing romance, they write it under pseudonyms, and then eventually they stop practicing law because romance becomes a big enough thing for them. And I like, there's such popular stigma. It's less now thanks to, you know, Emily Henry and.

[B]

And now Frida McFadden and other people. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. There's less popular stigma about like writing romance novels. But I understand why if you're in a. In a really serious profession and you know that you're writing a book that people might not take seriously, you might want to like, put some. Try to put some fences between those things. Really hard in this day and age to actually keep those fences up.

[B]

Yeah. As someone who once blogged anonymously, I. I cannot throw too many.

[A]

I always forget that.

[B]

Yes. That was a. More about students actually. Frankly, that I was. Didn't want to get it all confused or mix it up. But I, I think people don't think about what if it goes great. Right. And then you end up in one of these situations. So I hope for her sake this is a. This is a more wieldy way to. To be.

[A]

I hope so too. Only having to manage one identity has to be.

[B]

And I was trying to think about this, like, if I went to my. If I went to my GP and I knew they wrote like techno thrillers like on Kindle, would I feel one iota differently about them? Hard to imagine.

[A]

I don't know. There's. I think I've told you this off mic. I'll try to mask some details.

[B]

I didn't want to out you not outing someone.

[A]

Yes, there is a person in my larger social circle, like a friend of a friend. I don't know her very well, who I know writes romance novels under a pseudonym and she will not tell me what her pseudonym is.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

They're just.

[B]

I think that is strange,

[A]

especially in the line of work I do.

[B]

Yes, can we get open Claude on this? Can you send an LLM bot after this problem?

[A]

No, I'm. I mean, at this point it's kind of a fun mystery.

[B]

Oh, speaking of open cloud and LLMs, I have a PSA for people and I don't know if this would ever come out. I told you a story which I'm not going to relate here because I'm not sure reflects amazingly on me in a couple of different ways, but it led to this conversation. When I was telling someone this story, they told me a story. It has to do with people's relationships, marriages, maybe unwinding and what all goes along with this. Do not enter any legal information into a chatbot. Oh, yeah, like, don't say here's what the thing was, or here's my testimony or here's Whatever. Because then you're disclosing it to a third party. And if it's something like my lawyer told me this and I told my do not do that because that it's now discoverable you have violated attorney client, attorney client privilege by disclosing it to a third party. And in that eula, the end user License agreement that no one reads and we all hit the accept all and move on just because we want to get to the thing, you're boned. I'm somewhere you're boned. And I have heard now this is secondhand a story of someone who did that and something that they didn't want to be outside of the attorney client privilege was discovered and boned them. So having said that, do that. I would also say please, please, please, please do not have chat GPT or whatever write your text messages for you.

[A]

No, just don't tell chat GPT things. I think is a good policy. There was a kind of like semi viral piece that I read a week or two ago by a woman who thought that she and her boyfriend were doing great. And then she snooped in his chat GPT and saw that he had been talking to chat GPT for months about doubts that he had about the relationship, about not being attracted to her, about maybe we should break up. And of course, ChatGPT, like validates your feelings. And then she has to confront this guy about all of this and confess that she was reading his chat GPT like, so let's just get your relationship advice from real people, please or fail with honor. Talk to the We've got to have it out, Joe.

[B]

Like I know, I know.

[A]

To the person that you are dating, write your own text messages. Like, I just don't know what to tell you.

[B]

You're not getting anywhere by having it write it for you.

[A]

You're not getting any better at having relationships.

[B]

No, you're being worse at being a person. That's what you're doing. Don't do it while I'm on my chat GPT.

[A]

Should we shake our some more clouds? Let's do it.

[B]

So character AI launched. It's an AI powered quote unquote books featured that lets users play inside classic literature like Pride and Prejudice and Great Gatsby. This is the direct headline in Variety subhead by Kennedy French. It is what it sounds like where you can go into this environment and role play with these other characters. You know, essentially what they've done is taken a bunch of LLM things and made chat bots out of the characters. And so you can go quote, unquote, chat with Dr. Bennett or, you know, whoever you know. Oh, what's her name? Come on. Jordan Baker from oh, Great Gatsby. Just to give you some sense of where I would go in these particular books, let me say this. This is giving me. So when we were just starting, there was this thing that people were trying to make happen called enhanced ebooks. Do you remember this, Rebecca?

[A]

Oh, yes, I do remember this.

[B]

Where you'd go into your ebook and there'd be a video or there'd be music or there'd be a hyperlink. We could jump out, you could do all this stuff. And that went over like a ton of bricks when I was in grad school. This thing's called hypertext, which was similar, where it's like you have an ebook but you could link out and blah, blah, blah. These have all failed. Nobody cares about this stuff.

[A]

Nobody cares.

[B]

Actually, this is an intellectual and artistic dead end. It just is. These are all in the public domain and they're only the reason they're in this because they're in public domain, that they have some brand equity. But this is a dead end for two reasons. One is you cannot make something great and new and exciting out of this. The second thing is you need to be able to have a business or a world in which it's worth making something new that people care about to even get to a place like this. This. So I don't like this. This isn't going to work. I think it's bad. But other than that, it's a maybe for me. No, I'm kidding. I really. This is one of my least favorite things I've seen.

[A]

I mean, I think this will get some traction, but it would have more traction if they had licensed like the properties that people like to write a lot of fanfic or slash fit about

[B]

like, or Pottermore if they want to fly one of these. Not too many properties are going to

[A]

do this, if you could. But the thing is that like, like you can, I think, approximate this with the, the existing chat tools.

[B]

It's a great point.

[A]

Tell it about your crush on the guy from Heated Rivalry and that you want the chat bot to interact with you like that person would. And like people are doing this like they're using it for role play. They're using it for sexual fantasies.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And like. So I, I understand how these character AI people arrived at this. This also happens every time there's a new technological development and the people in Silicon Valley get a lot of venture Capital. They go looking around for what can we point this at? And books are inevitably one of the things.

[B]

Public domain books, you have to pay for the underlying intellectual property.

[A]

This is the difference between technology people and book people. Because the technology people roll in and they're like, isn't this amazing? You could talk to Elizabeth Bennet and the book people are like, no, I could read the book that I love. Like, you know, people have been like, fanfic is as old as time. It's just more well known now because of the Internet. You can write your own stories about the characters you like. You could do whatever you want in your own head, have a great time out there. But, like, I am so just. I'm like, over it that every time there's a new round of tech advancement and fresh venture capital, my inbox is full of people who are like, we brought the latest technology to books. Like, nobody asked you for this. The someone is going to use this. But it's not the book people.

[B]

I mean, who. Who is more interested in ways to engage classic or interesting literature than us, considering what we do? And I've got zero percent.

[A]

Like the close zero that I would come to. This is like a segment that mocks this on zero to well read. That's like I asked the character AI version of Jake Gatsby what he thought about this, and here's what it said.

[B]

Like, the most cracked LLM prompts you could give to about. About the Great Gats. Something else like this. This will not work. Maybe there's some super Bronte heads out there that are like real, real fans. But that's too small of a. That's too small to be a business

[A]

of any and anything that's public domain that's available for these things. Like, there's already so much writing about it that, yeah, you could tell your other. Whatever other chatbot you're using, you know, talk to me like you're Heathcliff. Don't do this, kids. If you.

[B]

Nobody, please also don't ask it to talk to you like, Keith. That's not. We don't need. That's not something that's going to go

[A]

well for you if you prompt in like, just numbers for a therapist should come up on the screen.

[B]

You have not read Jane. You have not read Wuthering Heights is what it says, actually, right?

[A]

It's not Jacob Elordi, kids.

[B]

It's not that. All right, well, the rest of the show I have to yield to you because you've done some TV and you've done Some reading. And I have not done either.

[A]

Well, yeah, fun things happen in my life when you go on pto. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm gonna read so many books.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I read Go Gentle by Maria Semple. I'm not sure that I've read anything that. Is this factory programmed to land in the white hot center of my wheelhouse?

[B]

So you liked it? But you liked it, though?

[A]

Loved it.

[B]

I'm so excited. So tell me about it.

[A]

Okay. It's so fun. I read it in one sitting on Saturday, and it's like a chunky book. It's almost 400 pages. But I was like, this is. I got into the first 25 pages and I was like, okay, Maria, it's you and me today. This is what we're doing. It is about a middle aged, stoic philosopher, wonderfully named Adora Hazard.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

She lives in a historic building in New York that does give Arconia vibes, like from only murders in the building. And she has formed what she calls a coven, which is really just that she and a couple of her other single middle aged lady friends have all bought apartments on the same floor.

[B]

Oh, wait, they're middle aged or they. I thought they were older, though. And.

[A]

No, they're in. They're like in their 50s.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, they're all in their 50s. Like 40s and 50s. And. And this, like, it's sort of. It happens accidentally at first and then it happens on purpose that it's like, I'm single, you're single. Neither of us needs a whole thing of celery and a whole loaf of bread. But what if we go grocery shopping together and we divide stuff up? So this is like the coven approaches life in this way. I was expecting that to be more of a part of the story because it's like a pretty significant part of the synopsis. This is really just how Adora Hazard is living life.

[B]

Like, oh, we're setting the stage here. This is the launching pad for the rest of the book. Okay.

[A]

Yes, she's single because of a surprise divorce. She has, like, sworn off love. She is professionally. She works for a rich family that have and that, like, run a legacy art museum. And they live in a big fancy house across the street from their museum. And she is a private tutor for their two kids. And she's supposed to be, like, teaching the kids about philosophy. And she also has befriended the husband in that family. They're involved in art deals. And in the course, like, in the early pages of the book, something goes Sideways with a deal in the house. And Adora thinks that she has witnessed, like, a black market art crime of sorts. It then it. From there, it just, like, it goes off the rails. And she is both trying to, like, kind of solve a mystery. There's a little bit of a. What's actually going on here. But there's also a romance line because, yeah, she goes to the opera or the ballet one night. Her friend, who's gonna come with her, can't make it, so she's looking for somebody to give her second ticket to. She sees this nice fella in the will call line, and she gives him the ticket, and they kind of strike up a thing after she has sworn off love, you know, so she has this intellectual, like, meeting of the minds and a surprise love affair with him. And. And all of this is, like, tangled up all at once. So there's this just, like, she's really smart and funny. I picture Lauren Graham maybe playing her in a adaptation. Yeah. And like, the. The romance. There's a little romance, there's a little mystery. It's just a great time. Like, it moves because you're trying to figure out what's happening. She's got this romance going on. The banter is delightful and just, like, tons of stoic philosophy references, which, like.

[B]

We're back, Maria. I'm so excited.

[A]

It's so good. It is so good. You know, like, stoicism, not far off. Like, it shares some DNA with, like, Buddhism and mindfulness practices. And so, like, I have a pretty strong, like, stoic streak. And so I was just like, adora, let's be friends. I'll buy an apartment down the hall from you. Let's do it. It's so. It is so much fun. I feel like I cannot be a good, objective judge of it. Like, I'll be curious about how experience it.

[B]

I think there's a good chance I'm gonna buy this for both of my parents. Sorry, dad, if you're listening. But yeah, I think they both would get something.

[A]

It's really recommendable, like, we've been talking about. Where'd you go, Bernadette? On recommendation shows for more than a decade. And I think go gentle will slide in there because there's nothing, like, too spicy. You know, like, she gets to have some sex with the guy that she meets, but it's not really steamy. I was super into it. It's just so much fun. Like, the. The most fun that I've had and that. It's fun and really smart.

[B]

Smart.

[A]

There's there's no.

[B]

That's the magic of Where'd you go, Bernadette? That's the magic of that book.

[A]

I did. I did feel like, oh, Maria's back. She's got some things to say. And like, I. I want to be friends with this character, which is not a thing that I feel very often.

[B]

Well, Rebecca was so jazzed to talk about that she just blew through Frontless for you. She didn't take her shoes off.

[A]

Off.

[B]

She just plopped down on the couch to start talking about it. Which is, of course brought to you by thriftbooks.com where you can get more than 19 million new and used copies, including. There you went, Bertadette, which apparently should be the subtitle of There she goes, There she goes over there. Free shipping on books, orders of over 15. Every book purchase gets you closer to a fifth, a free reading reward. I was doing. I was looking around for Old man in the Sea editions. I gotta tell you, Rebecca, I was shocked about how bad a man, a boat and a fish covers could be. There's a real low bar for old man in this, but you can see all the covers because they've got all the different ISBNs and editions. You can go browse and find the one you like right there. You could buy something like Old man in the Sea or Housekeeping by Gilead by Marilyn Robinson, or probably, I bet you could find a cheap edition of where you go, Bernadette right now, because it's been out for a while and sold a bunch in paperback and yet no one talks about it, really, besides the two of us.

[A]

So glad Maria Semple is back.

[B]

Don't spoil Middlemen for me by Laura McGrath, because I have not read it yet. Our pal, Laura McGrath, her book about literary agents. She'll be on the show next week. Or, excuse me, I'll be recording with her next week for the show the week after. Anything you want to say about that?

[A]

That's not so. This is great. Great. So the subtitle is Literary Agents and the Making of American Fiction. And it's really about how since the 1950s, literary agents became a thing. And they are so much more than the middlemen in publishing. Like the agent's taste impacts the books that get made and how those books get marketed and what is considered literary and what is considered up market, what is considered commercial. We've, like, angsted for years over how do you actually define upmarket? And Laura, because she's brilliant, gives a nice little concise one sentence definition of upmarket. She Interviewed like, she was in tons of former agents archives. There's all this historical documentation and data, great stories from how well known books got made. And then she interviewed, like, 75 agents, and a lot of them spoke to her on background or anonymously. So my favorite part of the reading. I'm not done with it yet, but, like, I love this book. My favorite part of the reading experience is that there are a bunch of blind items that are like, here's a story that someone told me about a book that could have. Like, it could have been marketed this way, or it could have been marketed this way. But these people wanted this kind of thing on the COVID and they settled for this other thing on the COVID And so it was literary. And the descriptions have just enough info that if you're one of the real heads and you pay attention to this stuff, like, I. I was texting McGrath last night, like, here's what I think this book was.

[B]

And she's like, I can neither confirm nor deny.

[A]

That's exactly what she said. Like, end of chapter one, here's what I think this was. And you will have a good time. I think once you've read it, we should spend some time together guessing about what some of those blind items are, since Laura's not going to tell us. But if you're interested in, like, the history of publishing, but also just. Just sort of how. How these books get made, here's a fun fact. Jeff, do you want to guess how many authors in any given year get an advance of $250,000 or more?

[B]

Oh, I'm going to be so wrong about this. Is it even 50?

[A]

Oh, it is. It's higher than that.

[B]

Oh, it's higher than that. How many authors get an advance of. Oh, I'm sorry. I was thinking new authors. So these are existing authors.

[A]

Oh, book deals.

[B]

Over 250 book deals at all. Not debut book deals.

[A]

Any book deal. Over 250. 500, 1200.

[B]

Okay, I'm not off by an order of magnitude. That's all I was going for.

[A]

But there's, you know, stuff like that. She breaks down the percentages of fiction that are literary and commercial. Of course, it's mostly commercial, but as a person whose reading life is primarily in literary fiction, being reminded and grounded in the numbers of, like, what a small slice of publishing, but a big slice of literary culture, these certain books. Shape was really interesting. And it's. The chapters are snappy. They're like 25 pages each.

[B]

Sick.

[A]

And it's a great structure. She starts with talking about how agents pitch things. Then you move on to debut novels and like just the conceptualization of the debut as. As a thing that matters. We haven't always had that. Started in the 60s. Good stuff about Jack Kerouac. There's some great fascinating stuff about short story collections. And she moves on through there. I will be dying of never getting my guesses confirmed about what some of these are, but it's wonderful. And I'm so bummed that I'm gonna. I'll be out when you're here talking with her, but I wanted to get a jump on reading it.

[B]

It's all right. I wouldn't have let you talk in that way. One anyway. So you're not. You're not. Wouldn't have been a loss. I've got a little factoid for you in a meeting. I was in. In York. I was in the Knopf Doubleday floor of the PRH building and we were in a corner conference room that used to be Sunny Meta's office.

[A]

How are the vibes?

[B]

Well, it's just a conference room now, but it has its windows on two sides looking up north towards Columbus Circle. And so it's a conference room. Pretty standard. But they kept a bookshelf like that. The original built ins that were there in one side and they're not the original collection, but just there. And someone there told me that knew him that when, you know, they got the COVID designs for a book they were putting out. The COVID design thing you said made me think of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He would have them wrap it around an actual book and then put like all four of them on the shelf to see how to actually looked on a bookshelf.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Which I thought was, I mean, maybe obvious, but I don't know that I would have thought of that in our PDF age to actually print out and see how it looks on the shelf. So there you go. Sunny Meta, for those who don't know one of the great legendary editors of the 20th into 21st century. And we'll get you out on this, which is not front list foyer, but you could certainly find Margo's got money trouble over at Thrift Books. And you said you. You housed a couple of episodes. How are we doing? What do we think?

[A]

I think it's solid. They dropped.

[B]

Oh, darn it. No, it's solid.

[A]

Like actually my question is really about viewers who didn't read the book and because like if I have an issue with adaptations, it's usually that like some of the pleasure of watching something is from not knowing what's going to happen next.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I know where Margo's got money troubles is going, but, like, the performances are wonderful. You just get, like, at the end of the third episode, you just get to the part where she's starting the only fans. So I think we're. We're about to get into, like, the real.

[B]

Did they drop three at once? Because I would say you need to get to that before.

[A]

Yeah, they dropped three at once, and then it's one a week from here on out. But you get Michelle Pfeiffer being her mom. Elle Fanning is the main character. Thadia Graham, who was on Bad Sisters, is the most recent place that I saw her. She was one of the police officers. Really great as Margo's roommate. I'm really enjoying seeing her. Nick Offerman, always a delight. So I think I'm going to stick with it. I think it'll do well. It looks. I mean, it looks great. Great. It's just beautifully shot. Well, like, well directed. It's a pleasure to watch. But since I know where it's going, I'm. I feel like my exercise watching it is more like, how are they gonna do this? Than the. A true. Like, a more pure viewing experience.

[B]

The more important question I have for you is, are we ready for the pit finale tonight?

[A]

We're just gonna gird all of our loins for the.

[B]

Do you have any theories? This is all going to be out out by the time we come up.

[A]

I'm trying so hard not to theorize about the pit. I really just want to watch it and enjoy it. You know, I think Dr. Robbie's gonna be fine. There's been all this predicting all season of, like, what's gonna happen with the motorcycle and he doesn't wear a helmet. And like, Noah Wiley is central to this show.

[B]

That's. That is out. He's got. He's got industry armor like you couldn't believe around that right now.

[A]

Baby Jane Doe. Are we gonna get an answer to Baby Jane Doe? That's my biggest question about the pit finale.

[B]

Yeah. In our. In our Shadow private podcast feed, we do where we recap each episode and rank the the patients between how is on a scale of 1 to 10, how much of a nightmare is what they're going through? I think so far. So far, the thing that hit me closest to home was the poor bastard who got, like, hives on his feet by making margaritas in the sun.

[A]

In the sun.

[B]

Yeah. That changed my life. Rebecca changed my life. Life it's gonna save me someday to

[A]

be afraid of that.

[B]

I don't know. I gotta wear my black socks pulled all the way up to my knees when I'm out there making margaritas this summer.

[A]

There's a. A character who just kind of keeps appearing, who has on an American flag bikini and a terrible sunburn.

[B]

All the gingers say amen.

[A]

Yeah. I have never ended up in the ER for a sunburn. But it's in the realm of possibility.

[B]

I may have told you this. I was telling my kids this when that came up. They were fascinated by that because we are sunscreen acolytes here. Like it's, it's like there's no situation as a religion.

[A]

It's like largely based on spf.

[B]

Right. And so they, they have not experienced a real bad sunburn. But we were talking like the worst sunburn I ever got was on the bottom of my feet where I fell asleep on my stomach and I'd sunscreened up everywhere else but my big old size 14 flippers. Sitting out there in the Dominican Republican sun for four hours soles of your

[A]

feet is pretty bad.

[B]

Really bad.

[A]

Had I had a tough day in Los Angeles with small bikini bottoms and not enough sunscreen on the road.

[B]

Okay, cheeks.

[A]

Really a tough week.

[B]

Let's keep them all. Let's keep them all covered or slathered as the case may be. Rebecca, thank you so much. Thank the Thriftbooks for sponsoring front list foyer. Thanks all of you for listening. Last call for moms, dads and grads and you and whatever. Catch all recommendations solicitation at this point. Go check us out. Zero to well read. We may or may not have Laura McGrath on to talk to us about a book that she knows something about later this season. In the future to come out Patreon, we're gonna go talk about the new Ben Lerner. There is both a lot and not much to say at the same time.

[A]

At the end of a like 5 hour podcasting session is a hilarious time to talk about Ben Learner.

[B]

After I got into last night and then had weird jet lag sleep. I'm not sure if this is the right or wrong way to do this. This is. Yeah. It's like taking edible and going to watch wizard of Oz. Is that the best or worst way to do that? We're going to find out here real quick. Rebecca. Thank you. We. We'll talk to y' all soon.

[A]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail].