The 10 Best Winners of The Pulitzer Prize for Fiction of the Century So Far

Summary

Book Riot Podcast Summary: "The 10 Best Winners of The Pulitzer Prize for Fiction of the Century So Far"

Release Date: April 23, 2025
Hosts: Jeff O'Neill and Rebecca Schinsky

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Introduction to the Ranking Challenge

[00:53] Jeff O'Neill:
Jeff kicks off the episode by introducing the day's main topic: power ranking the top 10 Pulitzer Prize for Fiction winners of the century. He expresses the complexity of narrowing down from 25 finalists, highlighting the personal challenges both hosts face due to their differing reading habits and familiarity with certain authors.

[01:02] Rebecca Schinsky:
Rebecca acknowledges the difficulty of the task, mentioning that ranking Pulitzer winners is more challenging than previous assignments like power ranking books from 2001. She notes her limited cultural memory of some winners due to age differences and personal reading preferences.

Discussion on Rankings and Personal Biases

[02:01] Jeff O'Neill:
Jeff admits his struggle to narrow down his list from 13 to the top 10, indicating the depth of quality among Pulitzer winners. He also touches upon personal biases, such as a stronger devotion to award-winning works compared to Rebecca.

[03:04] Jeff O'Neill on Marie Helene Bertino's Work:
Jeff shares his recent interaction with author Marie Helene Bertino, discussing her secretive recipe development and the personal themes present in her writing. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing recurring themes and personal experiences in an author's work.

Notable Quote:
"If I'm not going to sell any books, I'm going to let it get weird." — Rebecca Schinsky [04:36]

Top 10 Rankings Breakdown

The hosts delve into their respective rankings, discussing each book's merits, themes, and personal impact. Their debates highlight differing perspectives on literary quality, emotional resonance, and cultural significance.

1. Number 10: "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy

   [11:31] Rebecca Schinsky:
   Rebecca assigns "The Road" to the 10th spot, acknowledging its polarizing nature. She debates whether to include it due to McCarthy's controversial personal life, ultimately deciding to place it on the list with reservations.

   Notable Quote:
   "This book destroyed me. It took out my whole family... It kind of destroyed literary genre for me forever." — Jeff O'Neill [35:24]

2. Number 9: "The Underground Railroad" by Colson Whitehead

   [13:30] Rebecca Schinsky:
   Rebecca places "The Underground Railroad" at number seven, praising its innovative use of magical realism and its powerful commentary on racial history.

   [14:07] Jeff O'Neill:
   Jeff places his version of the book at number nine, expressing admiration for Whitehead's seamless storytelling and the book's profound emotional impact.

3. Number 8: "The Goldfinch" by Donna Tartt

   [16:58] Rebecca Schinsky:
   Rebecca ranks "The Goldfinch" at number eight, recognizing its complexity and enduring themes despite her personal lukewarm feelings toward it.

   [19:11] Jeff O'Neill:
   Jeff agrees with the placement, noting the book's strong narrative despite a less favorable movie adaptation, which has somewhat tarnished its reputation.

4. Number 7: "The Sympathizer" by Viet Thanh Nguyen

   [20:35] Rebecca Schinsky:
   Placing "The Sympathizer" at number seven, Rebecca appreciates its formal excellence and thought-provoking themes, though she remains cautious about its long-term legacy.

5. Number 6: "A Visit from the Goon Squad" by Jennifer Egan

   [25:27] Jeff O'Neill:
   Jeff elevates "A Visit from the Goon Squad" to number three, lauding its innovative structure and multifaceted storytelling that intertwines various narratives seamlessly.

   [25:30] Rebecca Schinsky:
   Rebecca concurs, highlighting Egan's groundbreaking approach to narrative form and character development.

6. Number 5: "Demon Copperhead" by Barbara Kingsolver

   [22:55] Rebecca Schinsky:
   Rebecca assigns "Demon Copperhead" to number five, commending its intricate storytelling and Kingsolver's ability to craft a compelling, socially relevant narrative.

   [24:04] Jeff O'Neill:
   Jeff aligns closely with Rebecca, emphasizing the book's mastery and broad appeal, making it one of Kingsolver's most recommendable works.

7. Number 4: "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy (Revisited)

   [34:49] Rebecca Schinsky:
   Rebecca expresses her deep admiration for "The Road," appreciating its emotional depth and literary prowess, which solidifies its position on the list despite earlier reservations.

8. Number 3: "Gilead" by Marilynne Robinson

   [34:52] Jeff O'Neill:
   Jeff endorses "Gilead" at number two, praising its lyrical prose and profound exploration of faith and identity.

   [38:01] Rebecca Schinsky:
   Rebecca agrees, noting Robinson's masterful storytelling and the book's enduring impact on literary circles.

9. Number 2: "Nickel Boys" by Colson Whitehead

   [42:45] Rebecca Schinsky:
   Rebecca crowns "Nickel Boys" as her number one choice, lauding its unflinching portrayal of systemic injustice and its emotional resonance.

   [44:23] Jeff O'Neill:
   Jeff echoes Rebecca's sentiments, appreciating the book's seamless narrative and the deep empathy it fosters in readers, making it a standout Pulitzer winner.

10. Number 1: "Nickel Boys" by Colson Whitehead

    [44:23] Rebecca Schinsky:
    Rebecca solidifies "Nickel Boys" as her top pick, emphasizing its powerful narrative and the profound impact it has on both literature and society.

    [46:02] Jeff O'Neill:
    Jeff agrees wholeheartedly, highlighting the book's remarkable ability to immerse readers in its harrowing yet essential story, securing its place at the pinnacle of Pulitzer winners.

Final Thoughts and Reflections

The hosts conclude by reflecting on the subjective nature of rankings and the myriad factors that influence their decisions, including personal experiences, literary merit, and cultural significance. They acknowledge the challenges of such an exercise, especially when dealing with beloved and influential works.

Notable Quote:
"What defines Kristen's story aren't the missteps or even the pleasant surprises that crop up, but how she learned to find her voice and use it." — Nick Berg [08:00]

Conclusion

Jeff and Rebecca successfully navigated the complex landscape of Pulitzer Prize for Fiction winners, offering insightful critiques and personal reflections on each selected work. Their dynamic discussion provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of why certain books stand out in the literary canon, making the episode both informative and engaging for both avid readers and casual listeners alike.

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Transcript

[Dan Souza]

Hey, everyone, it's Dan Souza from America's Test Kitchen. I'm super excited to let you all know that we're launching a new video podcast that takes you behind the scenes into the messy, imperfect, but riveting day to day life right here in our test kitchen. Not only do I get to talk to my colleagues about the latest taste test they attended, I just came from.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

A tasting of salted caramel apple pie bars and then roasted garlic. So I apologize.

[Dan Souza]

Or about a recipe they're developing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The thing about this recipe is it's a secret. The restaurateur refuses to tell people what.

[Marie Bamford]

Her secret ingredients are.

[Dan Souza]

We also chat with amazing guests from the culinary world and beyond. The lamest joke I've ever said, I said to Marie Bamford.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's definitely great jokes.

[Dan Souza]

Thanks, Anne. Make sure to subscribe to in the Test Kitchen so you don't miss an episode. You can watch in the Test Kitchen on YouTube and Spotify and listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. Can't wait to see you in the Test Kitchen.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is the book Riot podcast. I'm Jeff O'Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Rebecca, we just keep giving ourselves really hard problems to do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The thing is sharp tools, interesting problems.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What about sharp tools and elephants made of marble? That's what we're doing here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You eat the elephant one piece at a time. Isn't that how it works?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This was not the hardest homework we've had. I still think power ranking the books of 2001 was maybe the hardest, but this was not easy.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think this was harder because I'm still not done. I'm putting my cards on the table. I have 13, and I'm supposed to get to 10, and I'm gonna have to, you know, I'm gonna have to go a little. I don't know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. The thing we're doing today is power ranking the top 10 Pulitzer winners of the century. So far, there have been 25 of them. I wonder if this is one of those spots where sometimes our age difference plays in. Where, like, I was still in college when the decade or when the century started, and I have not read all of these. So my, like, availability is a little more limited. I think my cultural memory of them is a little more limited.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, my memory of them is pretty weak. There's only two I haven't read, which. Okay, we can get into. But yeah, I'm guessing that the stuff that's like 2001, 2002, 2003, that five year ish. Age difference between us mattered at that point.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I think it probably did. And you're more devoted to reading the AW winners than I am. Like, typically in a given year, when the Pulitzers get announced, if you have not read it, you will go read it. And I am less reliable on that. I will do it if it sounds like it's up my alley. So I think you've got me on that one. I understand why it was harder for you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it's pretty tough. Let's see, programming notes. What should I have here? Oh, out now on First Edition, the complete works of Marie Helene Bertino. With Marie Helene Bertino. Rebecca, how about the apples?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

How excellent. I just finished Exit Zero last night in preparation for this week's bonus episode where we're going to be rating or ranking the stories in Exit 0 according to how Marie Helene Bertino they are. I'm. I'm really happy that you got to talk to her. Was it fun?

[Jeff O'Neill]

It was fun. I told her at the beginning that I was nervous. I don't think it made it into. That was before the recording started. She's like, I'm nervous because you now probably you're fresher with the book than I am, which I hadn't really thought about before. The other thing that's funny too is I've never done a reading project or certainly interview set up like this where it gets real personal once you've read everyone all the books. And there are some recurring concerns. And I mentioned this, and it brings up, like, you can only notice absent, distant, estranged fathers so many times before. Like, yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Or even here in the new collection, there are, like, several people either have parents that have just died or they've experienced some kind of recent loss, or there's some estrangement. Like, there are themes that. Of course, not all writing is grounded in the author's life, but it's hard not to pick up on that kind of thing and at least wonder about it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. At one point she was describing, like, when she first joined a writer's group. And like, she was a good listener, observer. And like, huh. Because there's a lot of listeners and observers in the book. She's like, yeah, that's right. But she was great and it was really terrific. And five is a really good number. It's wonderful of a career. I think there's. For people like us, really anyone that has some Bertino at all. And even if you don't, she's a good interview. And it's interesting about the process. But, like, 2am at the cat's Pajamas didn't do what the publisher thought it was going to do. And if you. As I did notice that Parakeet is quite a bit Strangers, for example, there's a reason for that. She's like, well, if I'm not going to sell any books, I'm going to.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Might as well let it get weird.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Let it go. Like it weird, right?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I love that.

[Kristin Kish]

For her.

[Jeff O'Neill]

In Safest Houses, which is her debut short story collection that was published by University of Iowa Press, there's a short story about someone who sends faxes to aliens. Like it's there in the beginning. So like it was cool. It was just cool to see that. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There. And there are some pieces in some of the stories in Exit 0 that pick up on some things from Beauty Land. Like she is a writer who seems to have recurring concerns and themes. So that does. That also lends itself really well to a conversation like that. We're doing our part here for the Marie Helene Bertino. Not Renaissance, just the main. Just get her out there. There's some of my favorite sentences of the year, I think in that. In that collection. I almost texted you to be like, what if we don't rank the stories? What if we just rank our favorite sentences?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I have to go reread it. That's not how I read it. And I think I'm we. So this is a setup we did for George Saunders most recent book, which Saunders is a strong flavor. It's not quite black licorice, but it has that kind of same profile, like very well defined, you know, when you defined it. And I had a sense that Bertina would be a candidate for something like this. I'm even more so of that now. I think Exero just brings that more into.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I agree.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Relief than even before. Anyway, so look for that there. I also talk. Well, I'll get that. Steps on front list. Well, both of all that. Stepping on front list where I talked to Gabe Henry, who wrote a book called Enough is Enough Enough. The second one is spelled e u n enuf. It's a history of the 500 year crusade to simplify English spelling, which is nerdy and fun and weird. That's over on First Edition. I've got something else coming up later in the week as well. So lots to listen to over there. What are we doing that people might want to prep for?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Great stuff. Well, you can pick up Exit 0 this week if you want to listen along as we are discussing it. I'm just losing my tabs here with everything we are also going to be doing next week we'll be doing the IT Books of May and we're rolling into Moms, Dads and Grads season. So if you have a request, do.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The people have time?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is like the last one. If you're hearing this episode, this is probably your last opportunity. You can send us a request for a book recommendation to gift to a mama, dad or a grad or yourself. Go just going into the summer podcastriot.com put mom's dads and Grads or something like that in the subject line and as always, our wheelhouse Patreon members will get priority there. We've got some great questions coming in from them also. So those are that's the season we're rolling into. I feel like we just did it Books of April. But next week it'll be It Books of May and time continues to pass.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was working on IT Books of May because now I'm double double dipping on that research for the 21 books I'm most looking forward to in May for first edition and trying not to have be it sort of all of the IT books be a subset. It won't be. It won't be. But that's good fun research to do there. Thanks everyone for listening. A lot of nice notes about the bertino and the 21 books to read in April. So that was fun. Sometimes you think of stuff when you try it, Rebecca, and you let it fly. All right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Quiet as it's kept. That's one of the reasons we keep doing this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, we're gonna take a sponsor break. It'll be 78 minutes while I sort out my Pulitzer list. I'm just kidding. We'll be back in a second.

[Nick Berg]

This episode is sponsored by Accidentally on Purpose by Kristin Kish. Stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook provided by our sponsors at Hachette Audio. You probably recognize Kristen Kish's name because she won the 10th season of Top.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Chef, went back to host it years.

[Nick Berg]

Later for season 21, and can be seen all over media and the food world in Accidentally on Purpose. What defines Kristen's story aren't the missteps or even the pleasant surprises that crop up, but how she learned to find her voice and use it. Because while accidents may be unexpected, they don't have to be at odds with purpose. And as Kristen approaches life's milestones, big and small, with intention, she realizes that those junctures, the ones beyond the border borders of the map behind the scenes and off camera are where the decisions and discoveries are really made, where the unexpected meets the intentional. And that's where things get really interesting again. Stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from Accidentally on Purpose written and read by Kristen Kish.

[Kristin Kish]

Today's episode is brought to you by Greenleaf Book Group, Publishers of Shadows of Tehran by Nick Berg. Ricardo's life is upended when his American father abandons the family as the 1979 Islamic Revolution erupts. With fundamental rights stripped away, his mother remarries, introducing a stepfather with a dark secret. At 14, Ricardo vows to fight back, becoming a rebel leader known as the Shadow Rider of Tehran. When his name is leaked, he flees his homeland. But the battle isn't over. Based on a true story, Shadows of Tehran is a gripping tale of war, resilience and the unbreakable human spirit, proving that we choose whether to be victims or survivors. Make sure to pick up Shadows of Taron by Nick Berg and thanks again to Greenleaf Book Group for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by 11 reader publishing from 11 labs. Did you know that only 5% of books are made into audiobooks each year? It's a wild stat, but if you've ever done audiobook production, you know how difficult and costly it can be. Which is why the good people at eleven Labs created eleven Reader Publishing. If you're wondering what it is I got you, I'm about to explain it right now. It's a zero cost program to create and share your audiobook directly with their 11 reader app. Simply upload your manuscript, format your text, and you're ready to publish in rich immersive audio that's powered by ElevenLabs AI voice technology. Best of all, each time listeners play your book with their pick of AI voices on the app, ElevenLabs rewards the voice actors they've partnered with. It's a pretty cool and great way to bring more books into audio form. So take a look, see what you think from ElevenLabs and their entirely free 11 reader publishing program. And thanks again to 11 reader publishing from 11 Labs for sponsoring this episode.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, so 10 to 1, 10 to 1 kind how we do these? We'll do 10. If you have it higher, we'll wait for it and do it that way. Okay, I'm looking at my list and I have a line. Let me just make sure I'm okay with what. My line is foreign. I'm not okay with it. But I don't know what else to do. I don't.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I Don't know what else to do. I know mine moved around a lot as I was doing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Point of order. This might help me. Is 2000 this century?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Damn it, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Sorry. Changes my list. If I have to take the 2000 book off. 2000 is this century.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I can get it to 11. Well, all right, all right, here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm gonna have a tie for 10th place. Just start off cheating, man.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't want to. I'm gonna play the game because the pain is the content for a situation like this. All right, where. Where do you wanna. Where do you wanna start?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay, you're gonna make me start at 10. Okay, well, we're just gonna start off spicy, I guess. So. My 10th is the Road by Cormac McCarthy. Won the Pulitz. Put it in number 10. Like, there's a version of this list where this is in the top three.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There is a version of the list where it's in the top three.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I can agree. There's also a version of the list where Cormac McCarthy doesn't make it. Because.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because we're not so into the McCarthy.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Because we're not sure what we're doing with Cormac McCarthy. But it seems that the industry has also, like, readers in general have remained kind of, like, I don't think we've come to a consensus about Cormac McCarthy because while he did have a relationship when he was an adult with a woman who was like 17, was 16 or 17 when they met, it went on for decades. She consented to it for decades and continues to talk about it as a positive experience in her life. As we talked about when McCarthy, like, when the. When the revelations came out in the story earlier this year, like, that does not negate that grown men should not have these relationships with people who are under the age. But I believe that her experience matters and her interpretation of it matters. And like, I could have been talked into. You should leave him off. I could have been talked into. Put it higher. But I'm just gonna put him on the list kind of in name only at number 10. That is where I went with that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I will do my awkward song and dance shuffle footed, mealy mouth, whatever. At three, when I get to the road, when I have it there, because, like you, I thought about the Titanic achievement of that book and the complicated legacy that McCarthy has. Has left for all of us to deal with. My number 10 is the sympathizer. Did you have that higher?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I did. I have it at seven.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay, so let's wait on it. There. Then we're back to your nine interpreter.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Of maladies, Jhumpa Lahiri.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I have this a little bit higher. So let's proceed with my nine. This is where I only have this problem with one author. And that is what if you have two pulling?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, then they get number one and number two on something.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, is that how this goes? I put the underground railroad at 9.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Say more.

[Jeff O'Neill]

In hindsight, I prefer another candidate from this author writ large. That's on this list. And when I started looking at the. The things above it, my sense of those books were stronger and more specific. Now, that could be because I'm very familiar with the Whitehead corpus. Right. Whereas some of these others I have. This is the strong memory I have of their writing. Or it's the best. If it's the second best book on the list, can I put it higher than nine? Like, I just know what to do with it. I don't think it's aged as well as I would have liked.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, it's still good. But I think some of the other things I have, I just. My sense memory of them is stronger. And this is my list, and I'm going to do it that way. But my sense, like, I can. I remember this book and I know the press is. But like, the characters start to blur. Specific moments, even my feeling of it. I have great respect and admiration for the book, but it hasn't. It hasn't deepened with age. And I feel like the rest of them, for me have.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay, that's interesting.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So, like, it just again, we're in the position now of saying the 9th best winner of the Pulitzer Prize. I feel bad for putting it so low. Whitehead's okay. He's gonna be fine. But if you had asked me, if you said, you know, Marty McFly me in a DeLorean and said, when this worked, this is gonna be your ninth favorite Pulitzer of the century. Like, what happened to me? What were there nine stone cold classics in the subsequent years?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I know what happened. I mean, I have it at two as a, you know, as a spoiler. I think we already. Before Underground Railroad, we knew that Whitehead had it. But in 2017 and 2016, when underground railroad comes out, this is when we really know. As Adam Gopnik would say, Whitehead has the real work. This is where the career takes off. And it was almost four quadrant, huge sales. It's difficult. And it crossed into book club reading. He's one of only four authors to ever win the Pulitzer for fiction twice. And he's the Only black writer to do it. He's the only one in this century. I can say more about that when we get to number two, but that's how that ended up there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And again, I think we kind of like when Scorsese won the Academy Award for Departed. And it was. It wasn't a career award, but it also kind of was like that he wins for the Departed and not for Goodfellas is like one of those strange things that happens. I feel like Whitehead winning for the Underground Railroad. Departed is a good movie. Very good movie. I watch it a lot. I actually. When it's on. Or I'll leave it on.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, yeah, I'll watch it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's not as good as Goodfellas, and I'm not sure it's as good as Wolf, as Wall Street.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And it's just. I prefer Nickel Boys. And if I look back, maybe I like Zone One. I mean, I just don't know. Like, some of that weirder stuff maybe I like a little bit better.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I mean, I do like some of the weirder stuff better.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So that was underground railroad at 9. What do you have at 8?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The goldfinch by Donna Tartt.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm the same exact spot. Isn't that funny?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That is funny. Well, we've been in, like. I was gonna say this seems like the. From the first two picks, we have more variability in our order than we've had on some of Some other ones of these that we've done. But, yeah, I have it in eight, and my notes are like. Honestly, it just feels like this has to be on the list. Like it's. It's Donna Tartt.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Or the fact that she's so, like. I don't. I don't have a ton of affection for the Goldfinch, so I kind of begrudgingly. I think. I think readers like the Goldfinch more than I like the Goldfinch. I loved the Secret History, but it's enduring. It made, you know, the New York Times 100 Best of the Century. People like it. And I think her resistance to adaptation makes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Wait a minute. There's a terrible. No, I was going to go the other way. I think the bad adaptation has maybe.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I totally forgot about adaptation.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Interesting range. Because we often talk, you and I, that our position on adaptations, it generally doesn't hurt the book.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And this one, I think it has hurt the reputation to some degree.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's too bad. I completely forgot about it, which is.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think the makers of that movie would prefer that you die.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Too bad. Also, we're never getting a movie of the secret history now that one of her adaptations has happened and not been good. But I feel like there's something kind of timeless about the story of the Goldfinch, which means it should endure. But it does seem to me like the book is fading from popular reading memory. But looking at the contenders, it just felt like it had to be on the list. How did you end up with it here? And at 8?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think it's very good. I like the book. I think it maybe is a little underrated now, frankly, for the. Because of the adaptation. Because, Rebecca, you are a little more susceptible to things getting. I'm not sure overhyped is the right. But just hyped. If there's heat around something you're like kind of. It won't touch me enough. So again, I'm not saying you have to like the book. I'm not saying that's unfair. I just think that's a thing. And I think a lot of people. When the Goldfinch was happening, it felt like kind of like some of the reaction that people have to Sally Rooney. Like it's, you know, you think you're intellectual and it's actually not that good. And whatever. I think the Goldfinch has the goods. I think it's really interesting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I think two things are hurting it in the public imagination insofar as that there's a public that thinks about the Goldfinch by Donna Tartt is A, the adaptation didn't work and B, is it's been 13 billion years since her last. Since it came out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And I wonder what the, like the rareness of new books from Donna Tartt. I think it can have both kinds of impacts, like both positive and negative on how she's received. I remember liking the Goldfinch, just not loving it when it was out. And I feel like if there was a Donna Tartt book every year, the reception of her books would cool a little bit. Because when there's only a new book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Every 14 years, the Three to Four Year Sweet Spot. We've talked about this in the past.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. When it takes forever in between books, it's a huge event and there's a lot of just incentive to make it like one of the best books of the year. She is very good. Like, I'm not knocking the Goldfinch. I just don't love it. Yeah. So that's eight. It's on the list. You're in the top eight Pulitzer winners of the century.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What do you mean we don't explain ourselves to Donna Tartt?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Donna Tart. Among the least likely authors to be listening to a podcast that there's a.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's a draft. The the 10 authors would be surprised to hear feedback on their rank, their appearance in one of our rankings.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Who would be like, what are podcasts?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I think that puts us at your seven.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Which is the Sympathizer.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, say more.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's formally really interesting. It sold over a million copies, which is a fascinating thing to have happen for a book that is formally very interesting. And it's just like that combination of things is surprising. A million copies is surprising.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And Grove too, wasn't it? Grove?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, Grove. Atlantic. Right. Not a big five publisher. I think the longevity for this one is an open question. But people do still talk about the Sympathizer. It comes up as a comp title like it is living in at least some readers cultural memories. It's not a decade old yet. I don't know that like over the over time it will climb any higher on this list. But I'm also not worried it's going to fall off.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Another one where the adaptation came and went. I think the demerits from. I didn't watch a frame of it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I didn't either.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But I said the trailer, it sounds like the thing I was concerned about. It became the Robert Downey Jr. Show and maybe they needed to get it made at all. I'm not sure. But there was a version of that where it really elevates the profile. And at best it was neutral. I would say at this point. Interesting time in his career where we haven't had. We had a sequel. Wasn't there a sequel? I feel like I read this or just a follow up.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean he had a memoir that came out on the heels of it that deals with like identity and personal representation. It was really fascinating like, but also very literary. And of the books on the list, like this is one of the more these are all literary fiction, but this is one of the more literary, artsy kinds of works.

[Jeff O'Neill]

A move that has never worked is to have a really best selling crossover sort of literary commercial hit and then follow it up with your memoir. Don't do that. Write the next. I mean save that. Do something with it. But the next one, I think you won't have a novel. You just do if you can.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean I think that can maybe not the memoir move, but the like you have a big commercial hit and then you come out with something that is a little bit Weirder like that can. It can work, but it depends on what the flavor of the weirdness is and how lucky you got with the big hit.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, let's Talk about Exit 0 on. On our ranking with that because it's a. It's an interesting case study in. In something not.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You had the sympathizer down lower on the list.

[Jeff O'Neill]

10.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right. Number 75. Demon Copperhead by Barbara.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay, I had that at 5.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. So right in the same range. This book is good and I think I let the. Well, I mean, you think she's underrated, but I let the hype of demon copyright, especially amongst the book club crowd, think that it might have been be suspicious. It's a little anodyne, but I don't think that it is. I think it is a wonderful, broad and specific story that does service to its source material. Which of course is David Copperfield, but really shows King Solver as the height of her powers. And it's long and people love it. And in this day and age, to do a literary commercial hit that has this stuff that's in this book and it's as long requires the commitment it requires. You can't get lower than seven for me. You just can't. This is the floor for this. It's not quite my favorite genre of things, but I really like this book. I like it a great deal. And it's the easiest King Solver to recommend. I think it's a rare one in which a long and distinguished career. You have what novel 15 becomes a giant hit.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's very unusual.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Very, very unusual.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's great to see. I haven't read this one yet, mostly because it's so long. Like when am I gonna find the time to go back to it? But I do intend to because I. I now thoroughly believe that it's as good as everybody says it is. Like the hyped cycle has gone all the way around to the point where I'm ready, I'm ready to do it. I'll saddle up for Demon Copperhead at some point. So I had that one in five. But also just because she has done the thing of like truly a four quadrant hit, she's taken seriously by the literary establishment. Finally, as you were saying, after 15 books, she was already very beloved by readers. This was a huge. It was just a huge phenomenon. Now I will ride for Prodigal Summer all the livelong day. I think that is the most recommendable King Solver. But have you read them all?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Have you read the Poisonwood Bauble lacuna, the bean trees.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You've done not all of them, but most of them. Yeah, it's been a while, but when I think Poisonwood Bible was an Oprah pick when I was in my Oprah years and that took me on a King Solver journey.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Can I also say this? She seems like a genuinely awesome person.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, she does seem great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Not that any of the other people that haven't said that about don't seem that way or I just know less about them. But like whenever she seems just really in an outsider Southern writer. Like the best comp for don't read hillbilly elegy might be Demon Copperhead.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that's right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Something like that. Number six for you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

A Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer Egan.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I have this higher at number six. I have Interpreter Maladies by Wan Yunhiri, which came out in 2000, which technically, if you use Sam Seaborn accounting is the last century. But if you're using the common parlance and the common understanding, it really is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. And I had this at 9 and Sam Seaborn accounting is maybe the only way that you could convince me to change my take on the year 2000.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Interpreter Maladies what do we want to say?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's a short story collection that won the Pulitzer Prize.

[Jeff O'Neill]

A debut short story collection. I still remember individual stories and moments. We talked about this before. What else is left to say?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The opening story in Interpreter of Maladies is like one of my two favorite short stories in all short story land. To win the Pulitzer is a big deal. To win it with a debut is a big deal. To win it with a short story collection is a really big deal. And to win it with a debut short story collection almost never happens.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I'm not a connoisseur of the short story enough to say definitively, but this does feel to me like representative the late 90s into really early 2000, maybe a little before, when a short story collection like this, done as good as you can do it, a literary, approachable short story that is pretty straightforward on the whole. Yeah, right. This is not Sanders, Bertino or Karen Russell or something like that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And the writing's not super literary. It's not challenging. She's not doing anything formally weird. This is like solid, just really well executed, like vignettes of people in their lives. Like the thing that short stories were kind of invented to do.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it's like the place we get pizza from almost every night. Every night. That's a lot of pizza every Friday night.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Jeff do we need to have a cholesterol?

[Jeff O'Neill]

My blood work. Dr. Robbie won't let you look at my blood work. It's not an experimental pie.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And we get a cheese pie, but God damn, they do everything exactly right. And what else do you want, man?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Just the best. Like, we talk about reading novels sometimes and feeling like they have debut novel problems or like this one has a few debut novel highlights. You read Interpreter of Maladies and you're shocked that this is someone's debut work of fiction.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is. This should be written by an immortal druid turtle that's been alive since the beginning of the year.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. Like, you're in such good hands. She's so masterful. Just an incredible success. Like there. I could have made an argument for put this at number one. Because the level of difficulty for a debut short story collection is so high.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I do feel like there's a non zero chance that Lahiri started writing in Italian in sort of like Indigo Montoya. Like kill me too quickly over too quickly. I must find him left handed. It's too easy.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Just make it harder now.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I got to write in Italian. Terrific.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

She's so good.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And then we doubted in Roman stories. Was awesome.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it was. It was. I. I know better now. You just don't question the queen question.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I hear you. All right. Are you up to your five, King Solver?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, Barbara. King Solver was my five.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay, let's. Let's do a break and we'll come back to my five.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, we didn't talk about. Oh, no. You had Goon Squad. Sorry, I got confused about where we are.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Goon Squad up higher. Okay, I have the Known World by Edward P. Jones right here at five. At five.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. I have it at four.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Interesting. I wasn't sure if this is one that you had read because it's a little earlier. This is 2000. Yeah. Interesting to think about. So a historical novel. I was thinking about this book the other day before even thinking about this. If this book comes out today, is there a mini storm about this?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, probably.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, why tell the people why I'm asking that question.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't know why. It's been too many years since I read it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

A former slave owner owned slaves. And I'm just. I'm just not sure. It is not afraid of the mess of race and power and complexity. It may be from a master. And maybe I'd like to. I'd like to give us collectively credit, but I could also see a world in which this isn't this doesn't go over very well.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that's a great point. I remember it being really difficult. I had forgotten, like, the subject matter is challenging, the writing is not challenging, but it's tough stuff to read about. I think he squeaked in just under the line getting this book out before the Internet was a thing. Because I think you're right that in the land of no nuance that is booktok, I don't think this works. I think he would still be like, the writing would still be recognized. I think it would have a shot in literary circles. We're still doing all kinds of weird, difficult examinations of history in literary circles, but I think it's a tougher sell to like this was. I bought this as off a paperback favorites table at Barnes and Noble. Like I remember that. And I don't think it makes it gets that kind of recognition today because you're not pitching a book that's dealing with that kind this kind of nuanced content to a wide readership because the Internet will tear it up based on the synopsis alone. The Internet canceled Elizabeth Gilbert's last book before it even existed.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So yeah, that was a bad job. Internet. And again, I don't know for sure and maybe because it is done with some complexity and it is not. It's not romantic. I mean, it's not romanticizing anything, but it just makes me wonder in a one sentence blurb that can take off in a kind of way, in a bad way. Anyway, I don't want to use a hypothetical to besmirch in retrospect, that's something that didn't happen with Edward B. Jones. And Edward B. Jones, like I forget about him when we have the conversation for greatest American living writer or whatever. And I shouldn't. But part of the problem is it's also kind of a Donna Tartt situation.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's been a billion years, is so small. Just not a whole lot of books. All of all Aunt Hagar's Children is the other one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's the other most popular one.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And that's a great book as well. Like he should be more well known. But it has been forever. And I think a lot of the contemporary writers, like we talk about Whitehead, Jesmyn Ward, like a lot of contemporary black writers that are still examining elements of black American history are standing on Jones's shoulders in ways that are important, in ways that art iterates on itself. And I believe they would acknowledge that, like he is. This work was really influential and its commercial success was really important.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, the saga. The I don't know. I mean I don't can't really think of an equivalent in terms of the experience in the setting. It's Morrisonian, the writing is. But like it has that same you're going to hell and like look at hell, you know, let us descend. And that's in that, you know, the last 20 or 30 years of ex post facto chronicling of slavery.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We better take a sponsor.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Let's do a sponsor break and we'll come back and finish up the list.

[Kristin Kish]

Today's episode is brought to you by Camcat Books, publishers of the Premonitions Club by Gwendolyn Womack. When Livhall and her friends find boxes of letters hidden in her grandfather's attic, they discover hundreds of psychic predictions addressed to the Premonitions Bureau, a bureau to investigate psychic abilities that mysteriously closed in 1993. A post online about the found predictions alerts a black ops group in charge of the military's paranormal research who will do anything to get their hands on the letters. Liv and her friends now know too much. To survive, they're going to have to rely on each other and the unlikely help of psychics who thought they left the dangers of the Bureau behind forever. Now let me. Let me give you a little tea on this. The author of the Premonitions Club was inspired to write this book by the discovery of a real Premonitions Bureau that used to exist from the late 60s to the early 90s, and they researched psychic predictions. If you said girl, what I did too. Let's pick up the Premonitions Club by Gwendolyn Womack so we can get to the bottom of this mystery together. And thanks again to Camcat Books for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by 8th Note Press, publishers of so Many Somethings from Molly Dunn. By day, Diana works as a cook, but by night she escapes into the Sam Raymond fandom, pinning smutty real person fanfiction, or rpf, about the dreamy rock star and dreaming of becoming a professional writer. Meanwhile, the real Sam is privately struggling with panic attacks and a vocal injury, and he's found comfort in an unlikely place, interacting as s with a clever fic writer in, embarrassingly, his own fandom. When Sam wanders into Diana's cafe, their worlds collide and a new connection forms over a shared love of music in New York City. As they grow closer in real life, will this pair in in OTP or disaster? So this is a loving ode to fan fiction in a romantic comedy package with notes of You've got mail. And thank you for listening. Make sure to check out so Many Somethings by Molly Dunn. And thanks again to 8th Note Press for sponsoring this episod episode.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That was your four. That was my five. I have the road at four.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I healed the floor. Well, I. I had the same thought of. Okay, what are we going to do with McCarthy? Am. I mean, am I in my own accounting of these books? Canceled him from the record, right? Say not a contender because of X. I think I was. I decided to either do. Leave him off the list or do an. An accounting of the book and my memory and affinity for it and not. I'm not saying what you did was wrong. I didn't like, do a demerit or like a diet version of my read. I was either gonna do not at all or I'm gonna put it right where I would put it if that story didn't exist.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, the secret here is that I still haven't read this one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay, well, there you go. So. And I'm not sure what to do. So part of our policy here is if we're in full throated recommendation mode, I'm okay not carrying the banner for some of these books. Even if I like them, there's plenty of books to pick. I don't feel bad about that at all. But with an exercise like this, which is the Pulitzer winners of the last 25 years, this is one. And my experience of the road hasn't changed because of McCarthy. My extensive. Him has. But this book destroyed me. My whole. It was like. It's like Kaiser's literary. Kaiser says so it took out me. It took out my whole family. It took out everyone I know. It took out everyone I've ever talked to. Like, it kind of destroyed literary genre for me forever. It hasn't been done better. A zombie, post apocalyptic movie, movie book process. Experience every literary dystopian thing. Like Last of Us. I'm like, I don't need to see that. I know McCarthy did it better. Station 11 lived a little bit. It's a shadow. It went slightly a different way. It leaned into humanity and it extended. But this wolf and cub trope of a father and a son going through a wasteland and trying to survive. I think that genre is done. I think that setup is done. You have to do something different. You can't go back to go read the Road if you're going to do this. Even something like the Mandalorian. And I'm like, it's the Road. The Road is more interesting it's doing genre, Faulkner and Post. What else do I want?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Fathers and Sons, man.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Fathers and sons, man. A Coca Cola and one of the great endings of all time. One of the great endings of all time. So is there a version of me that wakes up tomorrow is like, I don't want to talk about this book ever again because of stories and what are the other stories that we don't know about? Like, this is the other thing with these kinds of thing situations. It's. It's on the. It's on the margin, but it's here to be talked about. And if someone wants to say, you know what, I can't get there, I. I'm not going to argue with you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I think that's fair. It is the distinction between recommendation hat and literary, like criticism hat I think is useful. And I. I understand how you got there. I think if I had read it and had a personal relationship to it, it would have been a real question of higher on the list based on my understanding of this book and its impact. Or not on the list at all.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I get it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

3 Gilead by Marilyn Robinson.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I have that at Deuce.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I have Goon Squad at three.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This felt like a bolt of lightning when I read this initially. I didn't know you could do this. This was my first Egan experience.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, it was.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It came out at a time when, I don't know, I was ready for. I was living in New York and, like, it felt like I was in it, man. This is my literature. I'm young and I care about books. And look at this. That I can hold up next to. I don't know, whatever you want to hold up. I can hold it next to Infinite Jest or the Sound and the Fury or Catch 22. Like, it's operating on multiple levels, doing multiple kinds of things invented, inventive and masterful at the same time. It's. You know, the famous short story is said in the PowerPoint slide, right. Like, it has a signal, one that you can point to, and that almost overshadows some of the things that are doing. It's about music, it's about art, it's about technology. I. I thought, like, this is the book. Well, let's just shut it down. We don't have to do anymore. I'm ready. This is all I want all the time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I had the same response, just electric to Goon Squad. And the. The. Right. Like, anytime you read something that makes you feel like, can you do this with the book? Like, you're allowed to make chapters this way. Really felt very groundbreaking to me. I don't know if there were writers on small independent presses doing weird stuff like this before. And Jennifer Egan is just the one who did it well enough and with a big five to become a bestseller and be super popular on it. But she's like, we thought that this was top of game. And then she does Candy House, which is incredible.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like, Manhattan beach is a very good read too. Like, they're just terrific.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

She's. I think she's on the short list.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Of Living Goat, the complete works of Jennifer Egan.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

With Jennifer Egan, there's a nice. How many times will you have to say you're nervous before that conversation?

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, you just saw me freeze like a deer in the road. Like, I can't move right now. Rebecca, the thought.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I mean, an incredible writer, also a very good reader.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like, yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Which is not surprising, but.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And a game reader. Like, yeah, she will go do the interview and do your book event. And she's a good literary citizen as well. Not for nothing. I had just started blogging and everyone on the blogosphere was reading. Like, it felt. It felt like it's all happening, Rebecca. Like it was really there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It did. It felt like just very alive. And I think the way that this book is connected to Candy House, this is how I want books that are published a decade or more apart to be connected to each other. Like just sort of loosely with one or two characters in a more Vibes based thing where it's okay if you don't remember all of the details, but if you did read Goon Squad, there is some reward for picking up on things in Candy House. And I would read one of these that just like picks up this. If all Jennifer Egan does for the rest of her career is pick up this thread every six or seven years, I'll be totally happy.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Can do the. The Richard Linklater Yes. Version of this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, yeah. I am in my annual rewatch of all the Linklater movies.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's a Patreon app. We could. We could live. We could live watch one of those together.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, we should.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Let's see. So we got two and one left. I have Gilead at two.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I had Underground Railroad it too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We talked already about Underground Railroad. So I guess this is our Marilyn Robinson time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was looking at the list just to say briefly about the Whitehead. Like we talk about him as the greatest living American novelist. And in my heart, Gilead is two, I think. And maybe over time it will Continue to be like it's 20 years old and it's still selling. And Scorsese is going to adapt it. So it could. Like the 2, 3 is really fungible here. Gilead, probably I'm talking myself into why did I put Colson Whitehead in one and two together?

[Jeff O'Neill]

But I mean, in a way it makes sense. Does the. The pairing of them on this list that they both appear. There's an argument to me that strengthens both of their cases to be run into. There's also a case to drop it. I mean, it's.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I mean, this is a hard exercise. But.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So Gilead, So Gilead, why not one Is the only real question for me and I think is because Nickel Boys, I think, touches something primal and terrifying and does so with an understated mastery and grace that I think I can only appreciate at this point in my reading career.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Where Gilead. I mean, again, this is. To compare them is silly, but this is why we do this. And it makes it kind of fun. But whereas Gilead is a. A romantic version almost of being in the world, which I appreciate. And it's not naive. It's. It's optimistic and hopeful, but it also feels like a vestige of a world. Whereas Nickel Boys, even though it's historical, feels more current. It feels like it's dealing with things that still. That still are around in so many ways.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The point about needing to be at a certain place in your reading life to appreciate Nickel Boys. And we should maybe say a little bit about why Nickel Boys in Number one and Underground Railroad lower. And I think there are a lot of reasons, but my primary reason is the level of difficulty when you're not. When you don't have access to magic realism, when you don't have a hook. Like it's the Underground Railroad, but there's an actual train like Whitehead's execution of that isn't gimmicky at all. But it is a tool that he gets to use in Underground Railroad. And Nickel Boys is just a straight ahead story about a terrible thing and the people who experienced it and the people who carried it out and what that looks like in the world. And to tell it the way that he told it and unflinching gets used too much in book reviews. But I do think Nickel Boys is unflinching in its examination of the experience that these young boys have. It's really, really hard. I just think Nickel Boys was a harder book to write than Gilead was.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And so it has to be higher. And like I loved Gilead at 22. I love it in a deeper, more informed way at 42. But at 22, I don't know that I could have hung with the Nickel Boys.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I think there's this line that Jack Nicholson says to Helen Hunton, as good as it gets. Like other people don't get how great you are. And that makes me feel good about me. And I feel that. I mean, again, Nickel Boy's won the Pulitzer Prize. But I think the thing that I've appreciated is that, like, I can see how seamless is almost like there's a Kitamura element, since we just read that together recently. Like, the mastery is so total that you don't even understand that sentences are being made. It feels like you're kind of plugging into the matrix of these characters experience. And that I think, informs how the movie got made. Because how can you have such a radical, empathetic imagination like this and so that you'd use camera stuff? But there is a sensibility and mastery at work in Nickel Boys. Give us this lightness given. It's not. It is not about zombies. It's not about, you know, something wild happening. It is about something wild happening. But there's a smallness that actually makes it more horrible. There's a quotidian to itness that makes it even more horrible. It's not. The Holocaust was very bad. This was in people's backyards and we just don't even know about it. And they got buried. I mean, it's just the unflinchingness is. Is part of it. The part of it is to look with clear eyes and a full heart and not look away and then bring all of his considerable skills to bear.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And it's, I think, the way that you phrased that of that you feel like you are just plugging right into it. He takes you right into these moments. You feel them with the characters. And then having seen the film that is shot through the character's eyes, it feels really true to what it's like to read this book where Gilead. You have a little distance, you know, because the character is writing. You're reading the letters that Reverend Ames is writing to his young son. And they are beautiful. But there is space between you and that character and space between him and the people that he's writing to. And it's writing like most of it is not dialogue and action and that. Like, I mean, Robinson up there, one of the goats. Like, you know, incredible. This book is incredible.

[Jeff O'Neill]

If I'm having a Sentence from someone that I have to have on my tombstone. And I don't know what it is. I'm picking Marilyn Robinson. I'm not necessarily picking Whitehead, but that's a different. We're dealing. Grading on multiple curves. But, like, that's a different skill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It is a different skill. So, yeah. Nickel boys.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And one of the interesting. It's so fascinating to see them together. It's not a surprise for us to have them both at the top and both of them, you know, and I think we'll be thinking about them in 50 years. Both books I won't change at all. Most difficult omissions, Rebecca. Things that were on the outside or you weren't sure what to do with or other beloved ones, but they didn't make it to top 10 for you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know, I'm like bummed that Empire Falls and the Richard Russo moment just has passed. I have so much affection for those characters and just like the cantankerous small town vibe that he created. I really loved Empire Falls and a couple of those when it came out. That was the hardest cut for me, just emotionally and then, you know, in the same vein as McCarthy, like, I loved the Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar. Wow. That was a revelation of a book when I experienced it. And our relationship to Junot Diaz is difficult. I don't know that it would have been in the top 10. It wasn't hard to leave it off, but it would have been on my like 13, I think. Yeah. What about you?

[Jeff O'Neill]

The two I haven't read the Night Watch by Jane Phillips, which came out last year, and the Netanyahu's, which was a Bellevue literary title press. That was a surprise winner a few years ago. I never made it back to those. I got angered all over again about no Award in 2012. What are we doing here? We could be talking about Swaplandia right now.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We could be talking about Swapland.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We could have had it all. We could have had it all.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, there are really good books in every year, and there have been really good books every year of the last 25. And it was just. Just that they didn't award a Pulitzer that year. Like, I hope someone regrets that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I. I hope. You know what? It should have been okay, the prize. The. The committee or whoever the powers of the Pulitzer could have said, should have said the committee. All right, you can give no award, but here's the thing. If you do this, you never get to eat chocolate again. We're just taking something from you because this is mean.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You Got to step on a Lego every day.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Necessary. And who do you think. I mean, literally, who do you think you are? Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And that, like, it was extra mean that they published who the three finalists were. And, like, we. These three made it. You made it to spitting distance of the Pulitzer. And we decided that none of the three of you are getting this award. So we're not giving it to anybody. Like, I hated this. I still hate it. Don't do this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Or you don't. You have a choice. You can either not have chocolate again, or you get to knock on Karen Russell's door with a written letter explaining why you are a finalist but that ultimately didn't get the award. That you have to. You have to do it like Ron Swanson. You have to sign the letter to Canada saying that Canada sucks.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You got to show up with your face and explain yourself.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And you also have to take to her the best thing you've ever made and say, here's the best thing I've ever made. And you made Swamplandia. And I'm not giving you the Pulitzer Prize. That's what you have to do. You can do this, but it's going to cost you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It should have been more difficult than.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I just think it's not. Approaches. You've got to give the award. You have to give the award.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Give. Yeah, give the award.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, one year there were two winners, right?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There was Trust in and Demon Copperhead.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Demon Copperhead, Yeah. There's a version of this that I really want to put. Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay. I love that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I thought about that one, too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Very recommendable book. I like Trust. I like the Overstory by Richard Powers, though. I know he's in your penalty box. I liked March by Geraldine Brooks.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Haven't read that one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The Orphan Master Son by Adam. Like, there's a lot of really good ones. It's on the whole, I think, a really good list.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Like, it is a really good list. There are some surprises. Like, I think Less by Andrew Sean Greer is kind of like, that's a kind of fly, fun read.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I do like that book, but it doesn't scream Pulitzer to me. But you know what? They gave the award, and I'm okay with that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They did. You know what? That makes me madder, though. Like, Swamplandia couldn't get this thing, but you gave it to Les.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Here's what we do. Episode idea. We award the 20, 20, 2012 Pulitzer, but we go back to square one.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right. Yes, we can do that. How long do we have to wait? We missed 20, 22. So in I think years, we do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It before the Pulitzers next year because we will have done this power ranking this year.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. We're doing this exercise right now because the Pulitzers will be awarded in a couple of weeks. Like we're in that season. So Pulitzer season next year, we're going to award the 2012 one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And you know what we're going to do? We're going to get on the Internet and talk about our decision. Unlike the cows or at the Pulitzer Prize. Who. Who did this in 2012? I almost looked at the judges, but I was like, if there's two of my favorite authors on here, I'm. I'm going to have a real problem.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We should invite them to come back and reconsider. Explain yourselves, please.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Do you wake up every day proud of yourself?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

In a different year, people managed to give this award to all the. Like we cannot see, which I am going to be salty about. So, like, I need to not look at what else came out the year that all the Light We Cannot See won this award.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I thought it was okay. Are you mad about that book?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's okay. But it's. I thought it was okay. Is not. It should win the Pulitzer.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, well, so we couldn't. Okay, maybe we'll do. We'll make kind of pulitzer redo. So 2012 automatically is. And we'll each get to pick one additional year to re adjudicate.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And see, so you've got all the. Like I'm going to. Well, I have been notoriously difficult on Tinkers by Paul Hardy. So I may have to.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You might have to read.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I may have to leak. Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Was it his second book that you called Gormless?

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's the most recent book. I don't know if it's second book. Can you not remember that and then spit it back out of me? I don't do that enough.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You calling things gormless. Like it. It was such a good day, Jeff. It was really memorable.

[Jeff O'Neill]

If I was. If I was the Pulitzer committee and they said, here. Tinkers by Paul Harding. Actually, I like Tinkers. What was the other one called? Something west of Whatever. If they said we have to give the Pulitzer this. You know what, I'm giving the Pulitzer. It wasn't actively bad. You give the award just, you know, not for me. All right, so there we go. We have to wait. We have to wait a hundred years to do this again or one year because we get one new candidate. I don't know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We can always pick a different range. We could do power ranking 97 to 1971, top 10 of the last 50.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Then we're if we have the 70s, we have to do that. They did not give the Pulitzer Prize to the Norm maclean for it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh no, I am not qualified to readjudicate that year, but let's just give it to Norman McLean.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What if my whole life was just reading books from 1973 and then being mad about that? Anyway, that's our show book riot.com listen for the show notes. Shoot us the email podcastriot.com if you've got graduation requests, mom's dads and grad requests to shoot our way and we'll be back real soon. Rebecca, we'll talk to you later.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Have a good one.

[Nick Berg]

Thanks so much for listening this week. We hope you'll enjoy this excerpt from the audiobook edition of Accidentally on Purpose, written and read by Kristen Kish. Thanks also to our sponsors at Hachette.

[Marie Bamford]

Audio for most people, the first photos that exist of them are probably from a hospital room. They're in pink or blue blankets, surrounded by doctors and nurses and in the arms of their parents who look haggard and maybe a little bit terrified, but are beaming with pride and joy. It's a captured moment that everyone is fully aware will be cherished, treasured and revisited, often for decades to come. So the people are usually giving their best. These photos are visual touchstones, evidence of the initial life altering moments for a family. Mine were no different in that sense, except that instead of a hospital room it was a tarmac with an airplane in the background and instead of a doctor it was a judge holding me, conferring my U.S. citizenship. But my parents are there, smiling and beaming with pride just the same. My brother Jonathan is featured too. I've been informed repeatedly over the years whenever the story is retold at birthdays or upon request, that he was insistent on being the first to feed me a bottle. And there are photos of him doing just that at the airport and in the rv. They drove back from Detroit where they had picked me up. I know these images so well that even though I couldn't possibly recollect how I felt at four months old, I feel like I have memories of those moments. They are the first impressions of my life as I know it. My mom has always showed me these photos, so what was depicted in them never seemed unusual to me. I've always known I was adopted. These photos weren't hidden in a drawer or in an attic somewhere while My family tried to conceal my true origin story in some way. I didn't stumble upon evidence and have to muster the courage to ask the questions. In fact, I don't remember asking any questions at all. Nor do I recall any intervention style moment in which I was told to sit down for some major reality shifting announcement. It wasn't until many years later that I understood the implications of the airplane in those photos. It indicated that I had come not by way of the stork, but on a commercial jetliner. That I was delivered into this world by a woman on the other side of the globe. And the only real information I have about that day are records that I was born in a clinic in room number two, along with a small image of me the size of a passport photo on my birth certificate. What I do know is that at some point in the months prior to my arrival, that unknown woman was contending with the decision to part with her child for reasons I do not and may not ever know. Simultaneously, the family who collected me that day at the airport had been going through their own grueling process, the bureaucratic obstacle course of the American adoption system. Under any circumstance, bringing a child home for the first time requires extensive planning, preparation and emotional heavy lifting. Mine also included a lot of paperwork, jet fuel and patience. But as the infant at the center of all of this, the one who connected those strangers on opposite sides of the planet, I was spared the knowledge of the extraordinary investment on the part of all involved, as well as any pain my birth parents might have experienced. To people looking at these photos, more than four decades old at this point, it may seem like a remarkable entry onto this earth. And as an adult who understands what the images imply off camera and behind the scenes, I now know that to be true. But to me, my birth, much like the childhood that followed, was never anything but totally normal.