The 2025 Nobel Prize in Literature, NBA Finalists, and more award season news. PLUS: Hachette CEO David Shelley

Summary

Book Riot – The Podcast

Episode: The 2025 Nobel Prize in Literature, NBA Finalists, and More Award Season News. PLUS: Hachette CEO David Shelley

Date: October 13, 2025
Hosts: Jeff O’Neal (Book Riot), Sharifah Williams (guest host)

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Episode Overview

This jam-packed episode dives deep into the world of literary awards and industry news, covering the just-announced 2025 Nobel Prize in Literature, the National Book Award (NBA) and Kirkus Prize finalists, chaos in library distribution land, and wraps with a substantial, insightful interview with Hachette CEO David Shelley on banned books, publishing diversity, and the UK–US book trade.

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Main Themes & Highlights

• 2025 Nobel Prize in Literature: Reaction to the selection of Laszlo Krasnohorkai, his work, and the perennial “who actually reads Nobel winners?” conundrum.
• Awards Roundup: Analysis and personal picks from NBA and Kirkus Prize shortlists, plus a chat about the “MacArthur Genius Awards.”
• Library Distribution Chaos: The likely collapse of Baker & Taylor has librarians scrambling; discussion on possible industry impacts.
• Publishing Trends: Book formats across countries, literary tastes, and distribution of diverse voices in publishing.
• Interview – David Shelley (Hachette CEO): A thoughtful and surprisingly candid conversation on banning, censorship, DEI (diversity, equity, inclusion) in publishing, and the future of reading.

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Detailed Breakdown & Notable Moments

Nobel Prize in Literature: Laszlo Krasnohorkai

[01:03–10:59]

• Announcement & Reactions

  • Jeff and Sharifah admit, with humor, their imagined distance from many Nobel selections:

    "The Nobel Prize for Literature was awarded this morning to Laszlo Krasnohorkai... and has gone on to write the kinds of books that feel like parodies of the kinds of books that win Nobel Prizes." — Jeff O’Neal [01:54]

  • Discussion of Krasnohorkai’s reputation as the “master of the apocalypse,” his stylistic quirks (notably: novels with a single sentence or almost no periods), and recurring anti-fascist themes.

• Accessibility & American Context

  • Sharifah reflects the common US reader experience:

    "We both got a chance to look at it... I, for a long time, have considered the Nobel Prize in literature as one of those awards that recognizes books I will probably never read or have never heard about." — Sharifah Williams [02:48]

  • The duo joke about how Nobel winners often seem like poster children for unreadable literary fiction, and cite the low rate of reading works in translation in the US.

• Krasnohorkai’s Work Explained

  • Jeff reads a description of “Satantango,” touching on its apocalyptic mood and bleakness. They comment on the limited commercial prospects for such a writer in the American market and riff on how a show like Frasier would make a meal out of pretentiousness around Nobel winners [07:51].

  • Sharifah, humorously, on why she’s unlikely to read these books:

    "I was triggered by the idea of reading another, like, especially a super dark, dreary...books don’t sound like they have any sort of neat, tidy resolutions involving morality." [08:22]

Award Season: NBA and Kirkus Prizes

[11:20–22:24]

• NBA Finalists & Fantasy League

  • Sharifah shares her picks for the National Book Award, cheered by several on the longlist making it to the shortlist [11:46].

  • Full fiction and nonfiction shortlists are read out and discussed. Jeff highlights “North Sea” being the wildcard in the fiction group and habits of small presses breaking through.

  • The duo lament Han Kang’s absence from the translated lit shortlist [15:52].

  • Jeff predicts a nonfiction favorite:

    "If I have any chip to put down on the roulette wheel of guessing... I feel like 'One Day Everyone Will Have Always Been Against This' feels like that's going to win for nonfiction." — Jeff O’Neal [16:51]

• Kirkus Prize Winners

  • They note “The Slip” (Lucas Schaefer, fiction), “King of Kings” (Scott Anderson, nonfiction), “Every Belly” (Dao Lam, YA/kids) as winners, and discuss what makes the Kirkus Prize unique (it’s especially lucrative: $50k per category—[20:33]).

  • Jeff’s “doorstopper” fatigue:

    "The single sentence is a bit of a deterrent. 496 pages to me in the year of our Lord 2025... that can be a bit of a deterrent." [19:11]

• MacArthur “Genius” Awards

  • Celebration of Tommy Orange winning, with context on the prize’s meaning for a young writer [22:24].

    "It's a big purse. No strings attached. 800 grand. It's not even like... you can only use this money to write your next, you know, opus or whatever. It's just like, here's... I mean, you're a genius." — Sharifah Williams [22:12]

Library Distribution: Baker & Taylor Turmoil

[30:14–36:18]

• Baker & Taylor, a primary distributor for libraries, is rumored to be shutting down after a failed Readerlink acquisition.

  "We're going to leave a lot of librarians in the... Is that your sense of the playing field, Sharifah, what am I missing on this?" — Jeff O’Neal [30:14]

• Sharifah summarizes the confusion and scramble among libraries reliant on B&T, with Ingram and Amazon stepping in to fill the gaps.

• Jeff offers broader reflections on the fragility caused by industry consolidation, likening it to monocultures in agriculture [36:18].

Frontlist Foyer: Recent Reads & Bookish Life

Sharifah’s Reads

• Intimacies by Katie Kitamura (“not for everybody, but I recognize really great writing” [39:21])
• The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson: Sharifah is immersed in the nonfiction classic about the Great Migration and loving it [40:31].

Jeff’s Reads & Anecdotes

• Explains his thwarted attempt to buy Thomas Pynchon’s new release “Shadow Ticket” on launch day due to it being sold out, speculates on a mini “Pynchon Run” in Portland [43:58].
• He’s exploring Near Flesh by Katherine Dunn and philosophizes about the joys of reading short stories as life gets busier [47:14–50:55].

Iconic Short Stories?

• They discuss “The Lottery” by Shirley Jackson as possibly the most widely-referenced short story in America, and ponder what else would go on a “Zero to Well Read” essentials list [49:02–51:14].

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FEATURE INTERVIEW: David Shelley, CEO of Hachette Book Group

[52:36–85:46]

Censorship & Book Banning in the US

• Shelley contrasts his shock coming from the UK (“it’s not really been, thank goodness, been so much of a thing”) to the scale and mechanisms of book challenges in the US.

  "I was slightly shocked by that process, that a single individual just like... it felt, at the very least, very kind of... potentially wasteful of resource and at worst, you know, equating to censorship." [55:13]

• Strong support for public libraries as centers of access and advocates for trusting librarians’ professional judgement:

  "I've always taken the stance, you know, of trusting librarians and educators. You know, that's what they're trained to do." — David Shelley [56:25]

• Discusses the “whack-a-mole” nature of fighting bans state by state, shared industry legal efforts, and the resource intensiveness of lawsuits [56:52–59:47].

Diversity, Equity, Inclusion (DEI) in Publishing

• Shelley notes sustained, if gradual, increases in diversity both in Hachette’s staff and publishing list, but admits progress is incremental, especially at senior levels:

  "Can I say hand on heart, at all levels of seniority, we reflect America? I cannot say that and that is a sad, sobering thing, but I can say that it is a lot better than it was five years ago." — David Shelley [67:31]

• Cites statistics and proactive tracking on “diversity and variety” of published works [67:09–70:04].

• On sales impact of book bans: Banning can raise awareness and even sales through displays and “the Streisand effect,” but says the real harm is for kids denied access:

  "...when books do get banned, it is massively counterproductive... The sad thing is actually, you know, to be fair, it's kids who probably need those books, not getting them." — David Shelley [70:51]

Industry Trends & Philosophies

• Jeff and Shelley discuss the structural inertia at senior publishing jobs and persistent perceptions that publishing is inaccessible to those without connections or resources [72:29–74:17].

• On Book Buying & Diversity:

  • Jeff notes the disconnect between more diverse authors getting published and the predominantly white (or non-diverse) list of most-read books (as seen in 2025 Goodreads data).
  • Shelley shares optimism, pointing to genres (like SFF) where diversity and sales are trending positively (e.g., Octavia Butler, N.K. Jemisin) and younger readers’ growing appetite for diversity [76:07–78:17].

• US–UK Book Market Differences

  • Shelley observes format & cover design quirks, explaining, for example, the US insistence on printing “a novel” on dust jackets (“that literally never happens in the UK” [78:57]).
  • Hardcover and “large C-format paperback” culture, independent marketing, and how BookTok/Instagram viral moments are flattening international taste.

• Audio Explosion

  • Shelley identifies audiobooks as the most exciting trend, arguing the “surface has barely been scratched.” He connects audio to the potential for reaching more readers and reinvigorating longform reading [83:24–85:46].

    "For memoir, the gold standard experience for me is the audiobook written or narrated by the author... that's, for me, that's the canonical experience..." — Jeff O'Neal [84:41]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Nobel Prize Discussion: 01:03 – 10:59
• NBA & Prize Season Discussion: 11:20 – 22:24
• Library Distribution Chaos: 30:14 – 36:18
• Frontlist Foyer (Recent Reads): 37:56 – 51:14
• Interview – David Shelley (Main): 52:36 – 85:46

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Memorable Quotes

• "I have a very limited knowledge of works in translation in general, much less works that have not been translated. But...there is a certain type of book that gets these awards that are not the usual books I read." — Sharifah Williams [02:48]

• "If the show Frasier was still running today, this would definitely be an episode. Frasier pretends to know who Krasno Jorge is and gets into a bind because of it." — Sharifah Williams [07:51]

• "The Kirkus Prize is one of the more lucrative for a single title in the US. 50 grand for both of them, all three of the winners." — Jeff O’Neal [20:33]

• "No strings attached. 800 grand... you're a genius." — Sharifah Williams on the MacArthur Genius Grant [22:12]

• "Consolidation like... when you have one pillar and that pillar gets wobbly or crumbles, there are no other things in the ecosystem to support it." — Jeff O'Neal [36:18]

• "I've always taken the stance... trusting librarians and educators... they're trained to curate their libraries and, you know, obviously for small kids as well. So... that's what librarians do." — David Shelley [56:25]

• "If you are an author of color... you want to feel understood, you want to feel that there is a... diverse group of people that's helping to bring your book to market." — David Shelley [69:33]

• "For younger readers...they are very unwilling to read books that aren't in some way diverse cast of characters... My hope is that the 16 to 24 year olds now will continue to read in that way." — David Shelley [77:14]

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Tone & Style

• Casual, self-aware, humorous: Hosts regularly poke fun at themselves and the industry while delivering sharp analysis.
• Candid, reflective: Both the regular segment and the interview stress honesty about gaps, challenges, progress, and the messiness of publishing and reading habits.
• Encouraging, community-minded: Listeners are invited to share library/distribution experiences; achievements of diverse authors and younger readers’ openness are celebrated.

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For Further Exploration

• For those wanting more details on the prize lists, Jeff and Sharifah encourage checking the full NBA and Kirkus lists online.
• The full interview with David Shelley is robust on banned books, publishing culture differences, and DEI’s future in the industry.

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**Email [e-mail] with library/B&T insights, or your takes on literary short story essentials or other episode topics.

Transcript

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[Jeff O'Neill]

This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill. Sitting in for Rebecca this week is Sharifah Williams. It's award season. Sharifah, like in a big, huge way, you and I were both writing about the Nobel Prize Laureate independently for different.

[Sharifah Williams]

We may have a little time. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Messy middle of our product lineup right now. We're both doing that, but we both got a chance to look at it. I assume you went out and read Hirsch 07729 in the meantime. You just went out and did that. I do.

[Sharifah Williams]

Oh yeah. You know, I love a good run on sentence. I actually can't remember which one they said was the one that had only one. Like which book had only one period and which was just like one sentence. And I was like, nope. And I already attempted Ulysses. I'm not doing this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So the news is, of course, that the Nobel Prize for Literature was awarded this morning to Laszlo Krasnohorkai. The name, believe it or not, sounds like it looks as I wrote in the Book Riot newsletter this morning, a Hungarian novelist who was born in 1954 in a small town in Hungary and has gone on to write the kinds of books that feel like parodies of the kinds of books that win Nobel Prizes. It seems like a great person. Interesting stuff. But one long the most recent translated book, which is Hearst 07729 I believe I've got those numbers right, is one sentence, Sharifa. And it's about all kinds of crazy stuff and it's anti fascist. It sounds very interesting. I think I will try one of these. I have heard of this name before and the best. That's the best I can say about my previous exposure. I can't lie.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah, I, you know, for a long time have considered the Nobel Prize in literature as one of those war awards that, you know, recognizes books I will probably never read or have never heard about. And you know, some of this is my own ignorance because a lot of these books are outside of like some of these books that our newest prize winner wrote were translated into English years after they were huge successes in Hungary. And you know, I, I have a very limited knowledge of works in translation in general, much less works that have not been translated. But I also am just like, yeah, there is a certain, I don't know, there's a certain type of book that gets these awards that are not the usual books I read or am interested in reading. And this is definitely in that realm.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Of what we do. American titles, like titles that usually American writers now again, these have appeared in English, but like that are making news that are being well read, you know, because that's. We're trying to write for people that might read or listen to the stuff we're trying to do. So that's always difficult. And Americans don't read as much as in translation as they might. And I, I will include myself in that. From all accounts, a well respected writer and not an out of nowhere writer. He won the Man Booker International Prize in 2015, back when the Man Booker International was a kind of like the Nobel for a corpus. Now it's for individual works. But I think 2015 was the last year they did that. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure what else there is to say at this point. Like, but you kind of. I was, I was telling Michelle you kind of can't make up like the Melancholy of Resistance is the name of one of these books. War and War, Baron Rechaim's Homecoming, Chasing Homer. Like they just, it's just kind of. There's something funny about it. And I don't mean that in a satirical way. It just feels funny. Even though this person. Looking on the online discourse, I read some of the pieces, there's. I'll put some in the show notes. There's a great piece in the Nation, Garth Riz Kalberg wrote about his most recent book in the Times, Susan Taunt. Sontag wrote very glowingly about him, helped him break out. Master of the Apocalypse.

[Sharifah Williams]

Master of the Apocalypse.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Are you upset that he took that name for you? Did you have to fight him for that or did you send him a note like when a football player. I want to wear that number. Did you get a note from Sontag saying Sharifa is okay if I take your name?

[Sharifah Williams]

You know, I didn't. Which I feel Pretty salty about, but I think I'm retired.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Twins.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

You have pockets in your house.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You don't need to master them everywhere else.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah, I got plenty of chaos in a pocket.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The most widely read of his books in English is Satan Tango, I believe is like it's this devil dance. It was published in Hungarian in 1985, not translated in English until 2012, but that is one that's the most widely read here. It was the literary sensation of Hungary and the author's breakthrough work. So here I'm going to read. I'm going to read the description just to give people the sense of the kind of realm we're in. This is from the Nobel citation. The novel portrays in powerfully suggestive terms a destitute group of residents on an abandoned collective farm in the Hungarian countryside just before the fall of Communism. Silence and anticipation reign until the charismatic Irmas and his crony Patrina, who are believed by all to be dead, suddenly appear to the scene. The waiting residents, they seem like messengers of either hope or the Last Judgment. The satanic element referred to in the title of the book is the present in their slave morality and the pretenses of the tricks to remus which, effective as they are, leaved almost all of them tied up in knots. Everyone in the novel is waiting for a miracle to happen, a hope that is from the very outset punctured by the book's introductory Kafka motto. In that case, I'll miss the thing by waiting for it. I mean, this is one of those books where the description, I assume it doesn't really tell you what the experience is like. I mean, I don't know what to make of that. It's dreamlike, strange, foreboding, experimental. I saw a couple of citations say the last postmodernist. I mean, Thomas Pinion has a book out this week, so I don't know what to say about that. So there we are. I mean, I don't know. This is not going to be one that rockets up the charts like Abdul Razat Gna has had a wonderful renaissance, or not even. It's a nascence in English markets, and I've been part of that. I loved the books I've read by Alder Raza Gurna. We got Hong Kong recently. We've got Alice Monroe. Any or no, this one is. I'm not sure it's going to have the sticker that says winner of the Nobel Prize. I'd be so curious. Maybe I'll try to see if I can get our friends at Circana to look at sales. I will say this. I did see it out at a pal's front table at some point recently because the title of this newest one is. Is memorable. So maybe there's a big hive out there waiting for it.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah, there you go. I mean, if. If the show Frasier was still running today, this would definitely be an episode. Frasier pretends to know who Krasno Jorge is and gets into a bind because of it, you know, or something like that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's some wicked mix up.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Anything else you came across in your. You know, who the hell is this person reading this morning that was of note or interesting you thought you would pass along?

[Sharifah Williams]

No, it was honestly just that I probably will never read these books. I definitely was triggered by the idea of reading another, like, especially a super dark, dreary. Probably not very hopeful. These books don't sound like they have any sort of neat, tidy resolutions involving morality. And even with, like, the rise of fascism, it was described as, like, well, you don't really know. There's nothing you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What.

[Sharifah Williams]

What you take out of this story about the rise of fascism is kind of like not neatly wrapped up or. It didn't sound hopeful. So I'm like, you know what? In 2025, maybe this isn't the kind of book I need. Maybe it's the kind. The Nobel.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It does sound like there's quite a bit about the rise of authoritarian regimes, but it's not dealt with directly. As you say, these are like secondary characters at the fringes of things that are happening, really subject to what's going on rather than participating in the. In the great, you know, tumult of the day. They're. One of the short stories collection is. One of the books is a collection of 17 short stories arranged in a Fibonacci sequence. So that's what we're dealing with here. Like that. I mean, this is interesting. I think this is high experimental art, and I'm glad there is an award for this. But Rebecca and I were talking about whoever wins the Nobel. Should we pick up a book and, like, do a crash episode of Zero to. Well read? This may be a big of an ask as I could have imagined. I daren't even text Rebecca to float it because I don't know that she's gonna be. Maybe. Maybe she will. Maybe we need some sort of, like, challenge or something. But it does feel like a slog.

[Sharifah Williams]

I mean, does it say how long any of these books are? Maybe it's, like, short enough. I don't I would guess not. But I did see, maybe it's short.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That you could get through. I think Hurst. The hurst book is 400 pages of one sentence. There is a nolla that's 192 that I saw described as a cross between Jean Claude Van Damme and Kafka which had my attention because I don't know what that is.

[Sharifah Williams]

Huh. That is. I mean that is the most fascinating thing I've heard about. About his collection.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So anyway, so I. I also think it's interesting to note that the committee his is citing the most recent work is maybe the thing that took it over the edge because it is. It does seem like it is more directly.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Dealing with the rise of a right. A right wing situation. So there you go. Let's see. Let's go. Well, where do you want to go next? We've got a couple more prize things. We've got chaos and library distribution land. Sharifah. Where would you like to go?

[Sharifah Williams]

Can we talk about the national. I think award finalists? Not.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I hope we forget this about anything.

[Sharifah Williams]

In particular because who did you have.

[Jeff O'Neill]

In our fantasy league? I should say for people that may not know, this is one of the big scoring opportunities to be on the finalist for the National Book Award. I think it maybe is one of the high. I mean outside of a winner, this is one of the higher scoring things you can do.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yes, I believe so. And I was happy when the long list came out to see quite a few of my books. But in the short list I've got Karen Russell's the Antidote and Brian Washington's Palaver. And then in nonfiction I've got Omarella Cods. One day everyone will have always been against. And he and Lee's Things in Nature.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That'S Making up for a Kind of Boss is a little unsoftening as we head into the fall for Kuang's book. I. Yeah, yeah. So let me do this. So people don't care about that. Our personal investment in this as much as maybe the actual. Maybe the actual finalist.

[Sharifah Williams]

So this is true. This is true. I mean those are great. These, those sound like great books that I am actually interested in.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Rabi Menadine's Truth the True True Story of Raja the Gullible. This is the finals for fiction. Mega Majumdar is a Guardian and a Thief. I think Rebecca picked it up. Karen Russell's the Antidote, Ethan Rutherford's north sun or the Voyage of the Whale Ship Esther. And then Brian Washington's Palaver. Those are the finalists for fiction the.

[Sharifah Williams]

Oh, and I think I did.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think I did. If I did not, it's Mega Majumdar as a Guardian and a thief. Big look for Knopf, with two of the five on that list. The finalist for nonfiction, Omar El Akkad's One Day. Everyone always been against this. Also from Knopf. I don't know how to say this person's last name.

[David Shelley]

Do you?

[Jeff O'Neill]

IO Ffe Julia Fe.

[Sharifah Williams]

I think it's one of those names where it's pronounced. I could be terribly wrong, but I remember some of these things.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Motherland, Motherland, A feminist history of modern Russ Yeon Lee's Things in Nature Merely Grow, which is one of the saddest prompts for a memoir of all time. If people have not heard about this, her teenage sons committed suicide in close succession over the last few years. And then she's writing about that. I can't imagine reading this book, let alone writing it. And then, to say nothing of living through it, Claudia Rose Awards of the State, the Long Shadow of American Foster Care, another uplifting title, I'm sure. There's It's All Fine. And then Jordan Thomas's When It All Burns, Fighting Fire in a Transformed World. There's also finals for poetry translated in Young People's Literature, which we cover less here, but go look at all those things if you're interested. Anything else here? I guess at this point this is a crapshoot to go from any level to any level. Maybe I'll go this way. The biggest surprise, I think if this book about a whale ship wins, I will be the biggest surprise. Ethan Rufford's Ethan. Ethan Rutherford's North Sea. I'm not saying it's good or not. Not great. I think that would be the most surprising. A deep vellum title which has a long tradition, an acclaimed tradition of publishing serious literary fiction that does quite well. I mean, frankly, doing more well in publishing, I think, you know, smaller kinds of titles, so this would be a huge win for them. Grove Press is a smaller press, but, you know, they're often in this and the others are PR ages, so I think that would be the biggest surprise to me.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah, I think that, you know, I. I would be surprised also if Karen Russell's the Antidote got the win just because of. There's something about the National Book Awards that makes me think that book might be edged out in the end. I haven't read Palaver, but it sounds very serious and literary, so that could easily take the. Take the win. But what I was really Surprised by as far as at least what made the shortlist and what didn't is that Han Kang's book did not. And I was so sure in translated lit, I thought that that would be the winner.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's so hard to know. I mean, it is.

[Sharifah Williams]

So claim the prize here.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I've got a question for you, Sharifa. I'm looking at the citation page for the National Book Awards for the finalists. So it lists the finalists and then underneath the five finalists you get a long description of one of the titles. Did they leak the. Oh yeah, Is that the winner that they accidentally gave us a long description? What? I guess it's all of them. I guess it's all of them. Never mind, never mind. I. Sorry, I just got. I got.

[Sharifah Williams]

Oh yeah, yeah, it's all of them. I was like, oh my gosh, that would be.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I didn't read the third sentence where they go, it's the way it's broken up. It looks like it's all about one title. But then if you keep going. So I saw that revelation I was reading. I was like, wait, did someone have a CMS error? We're all too familiar with back end problems that we can see how this would happen.

[Sharifah Williams]

I know, right? Like they've been saying they just have to like open up some checks.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And they put it on front street. If I had. If I have any. If I had any chip to put down on the roulette wheel of guessing. And again, once I get out of fiction and non fiction, I'm really out of my depth and I'm barely struggling to keep my head above water as it is. I feel like one day everyone will have always been against this. Feels like that's going to win for nonfiction.

[Sharifah Williams]

That's what I think too, because it's such a huge timely topic. It would almost beg more questions about why it wasn't chosen. But I think that that is truly the standout because I think that there are some powerful stories here. But I don't know. And maybe this is just because that is also a book I have read. And so it speaks to me the urgency maybe.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, maybe that's a red warning. You know, those things don't always go that way. But if I again, I would not bet a lot on it. But if I had to bet a chip, I think that would be where I'd put my most of my confidence points at this point.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah. And I wish that I knew more about the books under translated literature because I have been trying to pay more attention and they actually sound really interesting, but I could not begin to guess.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Literally. I haven't heard of any of them. They could have been, they could be false flags for all I know. I mean, I really don't have any mooring under me. One book I've been hearing a lot, a lot about and I don't remember, I honestly can't remember who mentioned it, that put it on my radar first earlier in the year. But the Kirkus Prizes were also announced this week and the winner in fiction is Lucas Schaefer's the Slip from Simon and Schuster. And the winner in non fiction is King of Kings, the Iranian Revolution, a story of hubris, delusion and catastrophic miscalculation by Scott Anderson. And then in young readers literature, Dao Lam's Everybelly, which is a picture book. The Slip, I think right around the same time that Great Black Hope by Rob Franklin was out. I think this came around around the same time.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Again, a kid out in the wild doing stuff has a sort of similar idea, but it's a boxing novel I've been wanting to read. This is a long way of saying I've been wanting to read this. It sounds pretty interesting, much like the single sentence is a bit of a deterrent. 496 pages to me in the year of our Lord 2025. As I am 47 years old, that can be a bit of a deterrent. But maybe this might be enough to get me over the edge. So the Slip by Lucas Schaefer sounds pretty great.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah, that has to. At this point I need something to be really gripping if I'm going to get through a lot of pages, which I happen to be reading a nonfiction like that. But it's been a minute since I picked up a doorstopper fiction book and felt like I could really get into it. But I mean this is as good a sort of encouragement as anything that it won the prize and seems to be a really excellent read. Of course it tells you where I am in my life that the one book I put on my my wish list was Every Belly by Chow Lamp. I was like, that's so great. All of the different types of bodies you see at the pool. What a cute book. I got some birthdays coming up.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The prize. I don't know if people know this, but the Kirkus Prize is one of the more lucrative for a single title in the US 50 grand for both of them, all three of the winners. Pardon me. And I don't know that the finalists get anything. It doesn't look like it. Which is, you know, that's okay. That's a claim. Yeah. They get to put a sticker.

[Sharifah Williams]

That's absolutely right badge on their book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I always enjoy what Kirkus picks out, because what the way that works is it has to have gotten a star from Kirkus. So they do their own curation rather than have, you know, publishers submit things or whatever else goes on. So there's more than 300 titles with a star that they were choosing from. Very interesting prize there. One more prize almost as lucrative as the Nobel, but not exclusively given to writers, given to geniuses. I think Rebecca and I once did a Patreon Power ranking, which awards we would want to get. And Nobel's number one, clearly. I mean, whatever. Chemistry would be a surprise to me. But right after that, Sharifah, we said the MacArthur because A. Whoever came up with the brand, the shadow branding of calling it the genius award, because they don't do that. The MacArthur didn't do that. Some, you know, some PR flack came up with a great idea whenever, sometime in the early 2000s. And not only that, you get 800 grand. Like, it's a. It's a big purse. No.

[Sharifah Williams]

No strings attached. 800 grand. It's not even like this. You can only use this money to write your next, you know, opus or whatever. It's just like, here's. I mean, you're a genius.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What? Two other things. And you're so handsome. What else do I want?

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And so funny and handsome. Suave.

[Sharifah Williams]

You can retire and be happy.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So Tommy Orange, of course, his breakout book, Being There, There, and then the follow up, last year's Wandering Stars. I think I'd be curious to hear from someone like Tommy. I don't know how much he's like, does he have to do anything? But right now, before this came out, because one of the things these awards are meant to do, much like the Guggenheim fellowships, and if you didn't listen to me on First Edition, I did a long episode with two folks from the Guggenheim about Those fellowships at 100 in an exhibition they're doing, but they're really trying to get people to allow them to do more of the work that they're doing. Right. It's not like the Nobel, which is the culmination. Right. Laszlo is not gonna be like, you know what? I can finally write a book now. That's not where he is. Nor was that where Tony Morrison or Alan Monroe or Hong Kong were. Maybe Hong Kong, actually. I don't know the answer to that. But with Tommy Orange two books. They're there. Which has sold quite well. I think that's been optioned. I don't think Wandering Stars sold as well. But is this the kind of thing where he can give up his day job? I don't know. But it certainly would give you several years to work on something I very well deserved. To be honest with you, Sharifa, if you would have asked me, I kind of would assumed he already had one. But I just thought after they were there, he'd won all the prizes or all the recognition a young, young writer can get.

[Sharifah Williams]

That's true. That book was a big break. It felt like it was winning all the awards. Every single person I knew seemed to be reading it, which usually there isn't like that much crossover. Sometimes there are award winning books that aren't super popular and buzzy, but that was one of those, you know, rare releases. I, I think I still consider Tommy Orange.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, you're right. Yeah. My, it's my radar. I think you're right. That's two, just two books. I mean, we're not talking about a whole bunch.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah. Yes, but that's so awesome. And I, I always assume that writers of, of Tommy Orange's caliber are teaching. Like that's what they do. So I have a feeling that if that is his profession, then I don't, I wouldn't see him giving it up because it's like, you know, enriching in a way. I've never been a teacher, so I cannot.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It says he now teaches in the IAIA in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

[Sponsor Voice]

Okay.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah, I don't think he's gonna give that up because that's like mentoring young writers in his own.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, but there's also the Morrison who for the last years tell him what life were, quote unquote, teaching at Princeton. So I mean, there's various ways you can do this. Could you go down from a four classes to two, maybe take a year off, take a sabbatical. I also don't know. And writers are different. I know news at 11. For some people, a bunch of unstructured time to write. Maybe not the best thing in the world for their practice. Some people want more structure. So I don't know. At the very least for the foreseeable future, not having the scratch to put together the next book or project is not going to be Tommy Orange's problem. So there you go.

[Sharifah Williams]

No. And I mean nobody, no publisher is going to say no.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Won the American Book Award, the PEN Hemingway Award and the John Leonard Prize for first book all for there, there. And it's not for nothing. It sold very well. As you said, people were reading. It sold. You still see it on paperback tables. It's one of those rare combinations of literary. But like there's a mystery element to it. So it's very, very readable. And it's not very long going back to our earlier conversation that you can, you can get through it.

[Sharifah Williams]

300 pages, 304 pages in this day and age.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So there's that. I think that takes us through our award stuff. Yeah.

[Sharifah Williams]

I know. I, I think I, I knew it was award season, but this week in particular, like I'm drowning in awards right now. I cannot keep up with them. I was like, the Kirk is award.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Get out ahead of the Nobel just by a couple days, which you certainly don't. I saw there's like an Irish book prize that came out today. It's like, okay, that's either a flex or you didn't know what's happening. Or maybe you're thinking people are in. I guess I'm talking about, I just mentioned it though I can't remember the name of the title.

[Sharifah Williams]

That's true, that's true. They're not completely forgotten, but that's a tough, that's a tough act to follow.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Let's do a quick break and we'll do a little publishing news and then talk about frontless foyer.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay, I'm going to need some librarians to email us Sharifa because Baker and Taylor is the to my understanding, the primary distributor wholesaler serving libraries in the US and I I haven't followed the tick tock of how we got to this point. The news is Baker and Taylor has announcing that they're going out of business out of the failed after the failed acquisition of Reader Link, which is another wholesaler. So I don't know if that's a go big. I don't know what the P L looked like where you need to either acquire another company or you're going away. I I don't. That doesn't make any sense to me but it doesn't need to because I'm not their cpa. But it looks like they're going to go out of business. We're going to leave a lot of librarians in the. Is that your sense of the playing field, Sharifa, what am I missing on this?

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah, it sounds like firstly there was a whole lot of confusion created by lack of communication about the acquisition and what it meant for libraries and their ordering systems. And they had to, they had a bunch of their orders canceled because they were going to come up with a whole new ordering system in anticipation of this acquisition that didn't happen. So there was already chaos in libraries about this. And then they learned that Baker and Taylor is just shuddering. And there was still, it sounded like based on one of the Publishers Weekly stories about this, there was still not a lot of communication. And so now they are all scrambling to figure out because some of them really do rely on BNT and have like, you know, shelf ready cataloging orders that are in their system and they don't have that same infrastructure. And it sounds like setup is kind of monotonous and labor intensive with a different distributor. So now it sounds like everybody's scrambling, especially people who really relied on BNT to find a new distributor. And there are distributors like Ingram and Amazon is coming into the picture too, you know, trying to capture that business and assure them that they have the support necessary.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm now looking at my notes again and I've got this backwards. They were going to get bought by Reader Link, which makes a lot more sense. They were looking for some way to clear their books. Their main creditor was like, you're in default. We've got to do something with this. So it sounds like the most likely thing is going to happen that Baker and Taylor as we know it will go away, but piece of the business will either exist as some, you know, bankruptcy court can do a lot of things, including getting rid of debt, restructuring debt, selling off assets. So if there is a profitable bit of this, it will go somewhere. One of the problems, I think with the Reader Link deal was that the deal included only BNT's assets and not the debts, which is probably why the creditors didn't sign off on it. It's like, where, where are we going to get left standing here? Hard to know if this is a situation in which there's an individual company having problems or this is related to something in the macro environment or whatever. I have heard, and I don't know if I talked about this on the show and I wonder about this here, is that with all of what's going on in the political climate in the US that not only are books getting banned and censored in libraries, the thing that's not getting talked about as much that it that is as important, maybe even more now we don't need to do this, but like it's important, different, differently important is that budgets for libraries are getting cut. Right. And so they're buying fewer books. And so if they're buying fewer books and you are B and T and you have a bunch of debt because you went private equity and now your margins are upside down, there could be sort of a cascading failure here where you're already in distress and you're not getting that percent of the there's just less transactions coming through. So I wonder if that's a piece of it here. None of that is really noted here. There's really no financial discussion here because this problem, this decision hasn't been formally announced. It's like people on Reddit saying, I've been laid off. And here's what I've heard and I think people are doing circumstantial evidence, but could be quite a tumultuous time. If people remember longtime listeners show might remember that they were a victim of a huge cyber attack a few years ago right in the middle of COVID that, you know, they couldn't buy new books. And I think servicing was a real problem. So this could have been several years in the making. So podcastookriot.com if you work in libraries, you work with B T. Tell me what the story is about how badly this could go for libraries, like what's really at stake. And then if you know anything about how Baker and Taylor has, you know, actually performed as an individual company. I don't know if some of this stuff can be subsumed by Ingram. Like they're the Ingram serves book wholesalers, your local independent bookstore, bookshop. A bunch of people are served by Ingram, but books aren't the only thing that B T supplied to libraries. So it's a whole mess. Sharifa I don't know what else to say except it's a whole mess.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah, and Ingram was saying that they a spokesperson for Ingram was saying that they're actually hiring across the board to try and meet the needs of libraries and that they have the stock in place for any orders. So hopefully there's something, you know, there's a distributor that they can rely on, these librarians. But I'm really curious to hear from librarians as well and to get the story on this because I think the first time I heard about it was one of our contributors who is a librarian talking about what a surprise.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It was another thing too that's happening many industries but in the book in publishing industry too, the consolidation like I think there used to be a time where there was more choices. They consolidated over time. And then when you have one pillar and that pillar gets wobbly or crumbles. There are no, there are no other things in the ecosystem to support it. One of the reasons that monocultures and agriculture is bad, but monopolies and monopolies are bad in a financial ecosystem because that one particular pillar is bearing a lot of the weight and that can be under pressure. Under pressure and have a recursive effect where it gets unstable that way. I'm hoping for the best for everyone involved there. We're going to do Frontless for you in a second. I should say that the back half of this episode is going to be my conversation with Hachette CEO David Kelly for Banned Books Week where I talked to him about censorship, book banning, inclusivity. He came over and took the HBG US job in addition to his he still is keeping the job as head of Hachette uk. So some US differences we talk about Irish paperbacks and how a lot of big, big look for Irish books today on the show. Two shots to them. So stick around and I hope you enjoy my conversation with David Kelly. Seems like an interesting person. But before that brief we're going to do it frontless foyer which is sponsors by Thriftbooks where you can get 19 million books, games, music, DVDs, gifts of all kinds and with orders of 15 or more you get free shipping in the US maybe libraries can just order right from Thrift Books. I don't know. They can get. They can send you some Dan Brown. There you go. Free idea.

[Sharifah Williams]

There's a nice idea.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't know what I'm talking about. Yeah, get a clue. And every purchase from Thriftbooks though gets you closer to a reading reward which can be redeemed for a free book. Think of the free book the librarians could get on that site too. Go to thriftbooks.com to get started over there. Srifa, what have you been reading of late?

[Sharifah Williams]

Well, my most recent friendliest book I read was Auditioned by Katie. Oh, tell me what is really caught up with you and Rebecca. This was my first Kitamura novel and.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I did not it was just totally normal. It was totally normal. Halfway through, right.

[Sharifah Williams]

I was like oh yeah, I. I can. I'm get sensing the vibes of this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Book, I get it.

[Sharifah Williams]

And then I think maybe a third of the way through, I was like, what. What is happening? Where am I?

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Where is.

[Sharifah Williams]

Where is she taking me? I don't know what this is about anymore. It was really interesting. I think perhaps it wasn't for me, but I'm glad I read it. I'm glad I read it because it's been such a sensation and it's been so talked about and a lot of people love it and you know, I'm sort of grappling with my own show.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, you don't have to love it. I mean, I think a reaction to it like that, I think is part of the package because at the very least I'd be curious if this sounds right to you. It's a particular flavor. It feels like its own thing. Like it doesn't feel like a retread of something else or it is over version of something.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah, I think it's a, it's a not for everybody book, but I, I can see the appeal. I recognize really great writing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I do wonder in that book, people who do not. Whatever happens in the. The second half or two thirds of the book is one thing, but if you're just reading the first part, her control of the sentence and. And mood is pretty remarkable. Like it was just that the whole time. It has. It's something to recognize.

[Sharifah Williams]

Oh yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's almost. I don't want to say it's too easy, but that's. That that's where you're starting from is kind of amazing. And then she does something on top of that a little bit later is pretty special. Yeah.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah. Those are some tight sentences.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Did you say there's some non fiction you were diving into? Some long thing? Did you just mention that earlier?

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah, I mean, I'm reading the Warmth of Other Suns Instagramming about this Wilkerson, which is like, yes, it's, you know, super backless, but it's one of those books, I mean, Wilkerson, one Pulitzer. So, you know, you're getting a good writer there. And it's been. I have never blown through such a big book so quickly in my life. It is so good. And I was almost, you know, torn. Once I got the Wilderness by Angela Flournoy in the mail. I was like, I maybe have to interrupt my reading of the warmth of other suns and pick up the wilderness. But that did not end up happening because I, I just cannot tear myself away from this book. It is so good about the great migration and I feel like these stories are so detailed and so fascinating and powerful that I. It's probably going to be one of my favorite reads of the year.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, two decades for sure. I mean, what. Was there anything that caught?

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Why pick it up now? Like, there's never a bad reason, but there's also not a screaming reason to pick it up now unless there's just time.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah. There was a moment where I was thinking to myself, I mean, with the state of the world and our country, I was just thinking about how long it's been since I tried to actively educate myself about U.S. history. And it was one of those subjects I always wanted to get into but never really had the time for. So I wanted to. This was like my year to get started on doing some of that reading I've been putting off for a long time. And, you know, after looking around a lot, I had a few books on my list, but this one rose to the top because I just saw so many people recommending it. And the topic, of course, speaks to me personally and it just sounded like it was going to be the kind of book I wouldn't feel like was an obligation, I guess, to read. Yeah. And that turned out to be true.

[Jeff O'Neill]

My doc. Anything else srifa.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Want to mention. Okay.

[Sharifah Williams]

No readings.

[Jeff O'Neill]

My. My primary frontless foyer story is in anecdotally interesting and personally disappointing. Not bad that. So I was. Oh no, it's shadow ticket week. New. The new pension, which I've been looking forward to Tuesday and I didn't get. You know, when there's a new book I'm really excited to get into, I get. I do a little treat for myself which I walk to my local pals and I buy it on. On release day. So, you know, there's three or four books a year that I'm looking forward to. This way. Yeah. You know, Tuesday in the afternoon, get my work done before the kids are home. You know, have an afternoon iced coffee and sit and read the book in this late October gloaming. That can be so nice here in Portland if the sun is shining. And these days I didn't make it on Tuesday because I was busy and carpooling and everything else. I go on Wednesday. I go on Wednesday. Sold out.

[Sharifah Williams]

Wow.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, that's what I was going to ask you. How surprised are you?

[Sharifah Williams]

I think I am probably more surprised because I think outside of you and don't say I have not heard a lot of this. I would have thought it was more.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like, okay, is that what we're calling Rebecca now? A Very specific kind of reader. Cool. We just. We just podcast about Twilight. Sharifa, be careful. Not you too. I.

[Sharifah Williams]

This is a.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Try to save it. Try to save it.

[Sharifah Williams]

Okay, but you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All the people that were reading there. There are not reading Shadow Ticket. Is that what you're trying to say? I think that's fair. Yes.

[Sharifah Williams]

Okay, that. That is what I'm saying. And maybe I wouldn't have thought of even. Even Portland to be a place where that book would sell out. But, you know, what do I know? Maybe it's. Obviously it was a very.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, it could be multiple things. At the very least. Pals. Hawthorne did not have as many as they needed to for me to buy it yesterday, which is interesting. The second thing I wonder about is we are doing Vineland sales because of one battle after another. So Pinchin's in the ether and I went back to look because, like, in the front of the pals and Hawthorne. Don't be creepy. They have like tables with new releases and there's usually a shelf talker. And the spot for Shadow country had the shelf talker, but the stack was gone. It was just empty. And then I went back. It's a smaller location, but then I went back into the stacks to look at the pin. Like maybe there's some other copies back with, you know, V and the crying of lot 1449. And I had said to Rebecca when we were recording the Vineland episode, I think it made it onto the show that they didn't have any copies of Vineland new or used when One Battle After Another was coming out. And then I got. It was in the flagship newsletter. But Brenna, our friend at Circana, told me that the violin sales were up like 500, which makes sense with the movie coming out. I just think there's a run on pension is what I'm saying. Sharif. I think that and violent people are buying the pension and maybe they only had 15 copies and. And they once sold. So I'm going to be very curious to see how it sells. Laura McGrath has pinch in. In our draft. She did not get the auto win, which I was. I. I would have gladly given her the win to have pinch and win the Nobel Prize today. I will not prevaricate about that, but I thought that was interesting, to say the least. So that's what I was planning on reading this week. So I didn't get to that. I. I DNF'd a couple of audio things. I'm. I'm in limbo. I'M between things. I'm making my way through through. I'm taking one story at a time of Near Flesh, which is a collection of Katherine Dunn short stories. Katherine Dunn, best known for her seminal cult classic that's become more than a cult classic, Geek Love. And this is a collection of short stories that have, you know, some of these were like in zines in Portland in 1974. Like, this is not something you just find. And I spoke to the editor that's going to appear in first edition next week, my discussion with her about Katherine Dunley selections. And it's I'd only read Geek Love. Have you ever done Geek Love? SHARIFA I don't mean to put you on the spot.

[Sharifah Williams]

I've yeah, literally had it on my shelf for years and I bought it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Totally because when you're in Portland and you're a book person, they sort of at least have not you have to have considered having read Geek Love. And it's a very strange, awesome book I haven't read in a long time. But I think the thing I was surprised by, I had a sense of her as sort of a narrow I had a narrow sense of her, which is what happens when you read only one book. But these short stories are so much more varied than I would have thought. I don't know. So I'm making my way through Near Flesh, which I is this out? I hope. See, this is one thing that's happening to me, that I'm doing more front list and galley stuff. I don't even know if this book is out yet. And you know what's great about you know what's also cool about first? Oh yeah, they don't tell you the publication date, just the year. So if it's not out now, it's out very soon. It's called Year Flesh Stories by Katherine Dunn. I you know, I Rebecca is a much better reader of short story than I am. But as I've gotten older or I'm at the age now where I can do a pick up a book, read a short story and then put that book down and go to something else and go back to the book and pick up. This is not something I've ever been do before. I don't know if there's Adderall in my coffee or what's happening, but it feels very healthy. Sharifa.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah, I love a short story. And there's something also about linked short stories which I thought I wouldn't like when I first when I encountered my first one, because I was like, well, I have to write a novel or write a collection of short stories. Like, why do they have to be linked? But it. I thought that I would not be able to put it down and pick it up again because there would be some disruption, some mental disruption happening that wasn't conducive to my reading style. But short stories are so nice. I do think as you get older, it is one of those, like now I am older and wiser and I can read a short story and maybe some poetry too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It provides kind of a nice little stopping world, you know. I mean, again, I don't want to. I'm not trying to compare with other people's Google Docs or Google Calendars, but I'm pretty pressed for time these days. And one of the reasons I've become more of a page counting watcher, a page number watcher, is because I'm. We're all going to die, Sharifa. I mean, I just don't have all the time when I'm. When I was 20, when I was 24, I felt like it all the time in the world. And I. And I had a lot more time, but even just my days were less stocked, you know, and I had more energy and other things going on. So anyway, that. That apropos of nothing, Rebecca and I were talking about some way of incorporating short stories into Zero to well read. And I was thinking maybe a mini episode. And I was trying to think of what is. If you're gonna pick like five iconic short stories to do for Zero to world read, what would they be? And the only one I could really come up with that like, I think is the number one draft pick. And I'd be curious your opinion because, like, this is the thing that matters. Like your instant reaction will be telling is the Lottery by Shirley Jackson. And then after that I think there's po and you could go a lot of different places, but I think that has to be. Is that the most famous short story? This is never a question I've ever asked of myself or of anyone else. Does that sound right to you or what am I missing?

[Sharifah Williams]

I think that is accurate at least. You know, I guess I could only. Yeah, I mean, as we always in my generation. But it was one of those, like the Lottery, the short story was one of those, you know, we handouts of it in high school and we have to read it and we're all like traumatized by the end. But I remember it like coming out in pop culture.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like you could. That's the one short story you can reference and like have a prayer of someone getting it.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah. Just about everybody knows that story.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So maybe A Telltale Heart by a girl and Poe.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah. Yeah, I think.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Why don't you go consult? You can tell me at your next meeting. You can let me know.

[Sharifah Williams]

I'll let you know. Give me a few minutes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Master of the Apocalypse. Do they still let you into the golf meeting or sort of get demoted or more of a secretarial position at this point?

[Sharifah Williams]

You know, it's a forever honor.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I. I'm recognizing podcast book riot.com for Baker and Taylor. Gossip backstories, little birdie stuff and M M I write in the Sharifa's radar calibrated similarly where it's kind of the the Lottery by Shirley Jackson. Maybe a po. The Purloin Letter or something else like that. But after that, I mean a good man is hard to find a rose for Ms. Emily. I'm just not sure where else to go. Let. Let me know maybe. I. I've done no chat gpting, no searching. That's just off the My Mushrokata brain dome at this point. Trifa. Lovely to have you. I kept you for longer than 30 minutes that I promised, but I hope it wasn't too big. Up next, conversation with Hachette CEO David Shelley. Okay, here with David Shelley. David, why don't you tell people what your title is? And one of the questions I wanted to ask is what someone with your initials at a. At a major publisher actually does during the day. But why don't you say what your title is and you know, what your purview is as CEO of Hachette Books.

[David Shelley]

Thank you, Jeff, and thank you for having me on the show. It's great to be here. I am CEO of Hachette Book Group in the US and I am also CEO of Hachette in the uk as you can tell from my accent either.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That it's a very good put on if it's not natural.

[David Shelley]

I mean I've been here 20 months, but I don't seem to have shaken off the English accent. But yeah, I'm based in New York. York, but I work and I've been based here for. Yeah coming up for two years. But I work across both countries and as you can tell, I. I was born and grew up in the uk so we're.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We're recording a little bit early ahead of Banned Books Week and the, you know, the penumbra of issues that unfortunately on our side of the pond, I don't know as much about the UK and maybe you can tell me. Have been with us for a while and look to be with us for a while around censorship and book banning and then also, frankly, around diversity and inclusion. So that's kind of the. The conversation space I'd like to enjoy here. The challenges I can imagine are many, from lawsuits to list development to author relations to things, frankly, I can't even think about David. So could you walk through for me a little bit? Let's start on the banning and censorship from your chair as CEO of Hachette. What's on your radar? What are you thinking about? What are you doing? What would you like to do? Anywhere in that direction. I'd love to hear more about.

[David Shelley]

Yeah, I mean, it's a really big topic and a very important topic. I mean, our mission here at Teshette is to make it easy for everyone to discover new worlds of ideas, learning, entertainment and opportunity. Fairly simple mission. And as part of that, for me, that means bringing as many books as possible to as many people as possible. And obviously, public libraries are a great way to do that because they are accessible to everyone of all socioeconomic levels. And being, you know, the age I am at 49, like, kind of. Libraries were always a place I went as a child. Like, they were so important, probably for you as well. They're so important to me. They've always been places that carried a wide range of books. Books I love, books I hated, books I agreed with, books I disagreed with. So actually, coming to this country a couple of years ago, and I'd heard about book banning, I'd heard about it. It's not really been, thank goodness, been so much of a thing in the uk, but I was very, very shocked to see the number of books that were being challenged. And I suppose part of it is about the system where any parent or any person can challenge a book, and then they have to go through this process. So for a start, I'm, you know, I was slightly shocked by that process, that a single individual just like sort.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Of the bureaucracy structure of how that stuff goes.

[David Shelley]

It felt. Yeah, I mean, it felt, at the very least, very kind of. Of potentially wasteful of resource and at worst, you know, sort of equating to censorship. So, you know, and I. I can say, you know, we spend a lot of our time thinking about this, talking about it. It's a real thing. It's ramped up, as, you know, in recent years, it was something that was more minor, I would say. And then in the last 10 years or so, it has really, really ramped up. There are some states, obviously, where it's become more concerted. It's become, I guess, a political issue. It's become, I would say, almost a slightly performative issue sometimes, and people trying to make political capital out of it. And, you know, I. Our thing is really simple. We just want to make as many books available to as many people as possible. I think the other thing for me is that always. I think I. I've always taken the stance, you know, of trusting librarians and educators. You know, that's what they're trained to do. They're trained to curate their libraries and, you know, obviously, you know, for small kids as well. So, you know, people have to take care in terms of what books they. They present to small kids. But that's what librarians do.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right?

[David Shelley]

So. So for me, it's felt, I guess, a bit like almost like kind of sometimes state and parental overreach into those areas that traditionally we've trusted librarians and educators with. I think traditionally we've trusted when kids go into their libraries or into their.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Schools, they're going to know more about the books than any parent or even someone like you or I who are working. I mean, we don't work at the same levels, of course, but, like, we're not children's book experts. They're going to know more about the.

[David Shelley]

Subject matter there than anybody you talk to any librarian. And they're so. Well, you know, they're so read. They know their stock, they know their books, they know their audience. So I think. I think it's about trust as much as anything else and maybe, you know, sort of wider letter level, this kind of breakdown of trust almost between different. Different groups of people. So what it means on the ground is, as you know, a lot of the big publishers and authors associations and other people and agents have been grouping together to try and fight some of these. We've been, you know, key. Key cases in Idaho, in Iowa, in Florida. Some good wins in certain cases. Yeah, but. But. But it's. I mean, I don't. You have the game Whack a Mole here, don't you? Like, it's like, whack a mole. Like one, you do one, and then another one pops up somewhere else. This feels like it's not going away, and the.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And the holes are changing and what's popping up is changing, and the. The hammer you're allowed to whack with is changing all the time. It's very strange because I've been on, you know, doing book riot stuff for 10 or 15 years or 15 years now. And there was sort of a baseline book banning and censorship that we were kind of used to. And it was almost, I don't know, like seasonal colds, like we didn't love it, you know, lamentable, but manageable. And then as you say, five, 10, really first Trump administration, a little bit before that, it became much more of a site of activity in some especially right wings groups. And from there it's really metastasized and morphed into a different thing, I guess logistically, I'm curious and you know, if this is stuff you can't talk about, I totally understand. Understand. So there's, you know, you're part of these Hachettes, part of these lawsuits. How do you join in? Does your legal department brief you? Do you know about each individual case? Do you say, we want to just be in on this and if there's something difficult, like how do you steer the ship in something, like how do you know what the weather looks like out there in the ocean for you to make a decision about where the boat is going?

[David Shelley]

So I mean, I mean, the answer is we have a fantastic legal team who I would say are incredibly busy in this area. And I'm sure the same will go for all of, all of the big major publishers, legal teams. They spend a huge amount of their time on this. They're brilliant at briefing me and others in the business. And, and so we're doing two things. You know, our legal team is busy working on it and we have, we, we allocate a percentage of our resources every year to fighting. As I'm learning, American legal challenges don't come cheap like that. You, the, that it's, it's, it's an expensive business even when you're grouping together with other people. So, but it's, it's vital. This is, this is so, so important. So, so we're giving time, we're giving money, and, and, and, and it's also about strategy, I guess, to kind of, you know, publishers talking about like, which are the cake, which.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right. You don't have infinite resources. You got to pick your, which moles to whack. Like the most valuable moles to whack in that kind of way.

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[Jeff O'Neill]

Learn [e-mail] so you're doing that and you're following the cases as they go. I wonder if you could talk about your sort of sense of the territory of these cases. Like on the whole, are you feeling like it's this is difficult work, but the work can be done. Like we're going to use the courts, we're going to use our capabilities or feeling. That's where more optimistic? Is it getting better, getting worse? Like directionally, how are you feeling? Like you've been here 20 months, which is not long. But things change, have been changing rapidly over the last 20 months. So what's your sense of directionality, how this is going?

[David Shelley]

I I'll pick my words carefully. I I don't think this is going away. I think the country, you know, remains very polarized. There is a I would say that I always try to, you know, red team this to try and understand what the other side think. And I think from some of the people who are challenging the books, they're saying, no, we're not banning books. What we're doing is we're protecting children. And I think this notion of protecting children can be used in all sorts of, yes, different ways. And I don't see that impulse of we want to have a protect children and not have people like librarians or educators tell our children what to do. That that doesn't feel like it's going away.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[David Shelley]

I do think that some of the legal cases have been significant. I do think, you know, we've had, as I said, we've had some good wins. But I think in this climate and in America's legal environment and also like the federal structure of the been in one state, that does not necessarily mean something somewhere else. So I, I think it's really a state by state thing. I, I, I feel positive in certain ways. I feel much less positive in other ways. I think it's, I think there's also a PR thing that we need to do in terms of just saying to people, this is not about harming. You know, I think this concept of Harmon Children is a really, really important one. It's a, it's, for me, it's just about trusting the people that, who are, who, who run the libraries, who, you know, who are in the libraries, who are in the schools. Like, trust, you know, trust people to do the best job for kids.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And one of the reasons it won't go away and hasn't gone away is that some people's definition of reading material a particular book is potentially harmful. You don't want to get locked into the yes or no. Like, that's not what we're talking about here. We're trusting the local people. But then in some cases that, that reading about a different lifestyle, and I'm going to choose my words very carefully here, or a different way of being in the world is not a locus of harm. No harm can come from that in any way. We want to even agree on a yes, no situation. Like, don't even agree to the stakes of that kind of a conversation about inclusivity. I would say especially there.

[David Shelley]

Yeah, I completely agree. And I think, I mean, if I think back to when I was a kid, I read all sorts of stuff.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Were you the Stephen King reading all of them in a row or something like that? Who was it for you that you were freaked out by? Her.

[David Shelley]

I remember reading, I mean, I was way too young. I think I read Brave New World, you know.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay, sure, yes.

[David Shelley]

I think I was about 8 or 9 or something, which was, and it was really scary. I was, my mind was blowing. I was really scared. And I think I read Lord of the Flies at similar age, which is again, not right, necessary, but like, did though. I, I truly think those books, like, I had a profound reaction to them, but they did not harm me. Like, I, I feel they kind of help to shape me in some positive, you know, positive way. Like Kind of. I, I think kids are amazingly perceptive. I think they see a lot. I mean, the other sort of elephant in the room is kids access to the Internet.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right.

[David Shelley]

The kind of things that 6 year olds, 8 year olds, 10 year olds are looking at on a daily basis on the Internet. That does not seem to be part of this conversation versus, you know, a book in a library with, you know, LGBTQ plus themes or whatever. It feels very, does. It feels very. It feels very odd actually to be talking about this thing that actually is a, I would say a library is a safe environment. It is environment staffed by caring adults who, you know, that's their job. They're skilled in it, they're trained, they, they, you know, that's why they come to work every day versus the wild west of the Internet. So it's like, why go after these places when there are all these other places where I think kids are legitimate.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. The straw man argument of if they don't encounter it in this middle grade children's book, they'll never hear about it. That is the only place they could possibly encounter it. Right. And it'll be completely new to them in this moment. Yeah. There is a bit of a bad faith argumentation that does seem to happen along those lines. That brings us to another area that I know Hachette cares about and publishing has been working on, you know, for 10 years more. I think really the last 10 years has been more of a concerted effort which is getting books about different people, different experiences at different levels into different people's hands. In terms of what Hachette does or how you all think about it, how does that. Those sort of editorial decisions, Right. Like the actual books you're going to acquire public, you know, market, publicize, put Hachettes or one of their imprints. Imprints on. Where are you guys? How are you thinking about that differently? Because I've heard rumors and rumors at this that some of this concern about banning and censorship, especially in YA and down, has crept into the acquisitions departments. Like, do we really want to sign on for this book that's going to be contentious or some way? Like, how are you thinking about the role of the publisher in terms of just making the books available to be banned or not, frankly, to put them into the world to sort of let the marketplace, ideas, for lack of a better term, decide what to do with them?

[David Shelley]

I mean, I would say, I'd say the good news, from what I've seen, again, I don't sit in editorial meetings. So I will say that in terms of what I see coming through, one thing we do is we track the sort of diversity and variety of respect of what we publish just to, just to try to do have some sense.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like that's not just a vague sense, right, Exactly.

[David Shelley]

So we're not anecdotally and, you know, to our mission. We want to, you know, may serve all readers. So I can see in the statistics that it's still looking. I would say there is more and more diverse books coming through that reflect different experiences for different kids. I do think, and you know, I have to acknowledge we all have acknowledged publishing has had a problem in the past and that has been, you know, quite a deep seated problem that I think a lot of media industries have, that our workforce has not been diverse enough. We've been very centered in New York, particular group of New York type people. We haven't looked at the, we haven't been expansive enough. Definitely, I would say the last few years there have been good strides made in terms of making ourselves more diverse. Because I think also if you. So much of it starts from having the right group of people in the room, can I say hand on heart, at all levels of seniority, we reflect America. I cannot say that and that is a, that is a sad, sobering thing, but I can say that it is a lot better than it was five years ago. And I can say that, you know, because we run stats for our staff as well, that we, every year we're seeing some incremental gains. And I think having that, that group of people that is not all the same, that is diverse, reflective. That then in turn is incredibly helpful in terms of the books that come through, spotting the talent, having links with talent, making this as well, you know, I guess a safe space for diverse talent publish in that if you are an author of color, I get it. You, you want to feel understood, you want to feel that you're not, you know, that there is a, you know, a diverse group of people that's helping to bring your book to market. I think that's helpful for any author, actually. So I, I haven't see, I'm, I haven't seen people being cowed by the banning. I will say as well to any book banners out there, your efforts are counterproductive. Well, you know, and I say slightly facetiously, but so many, I'm seeing so many of the books that we publish that sell really, really well. Our books have been banned. And just as they're being banned, there are other librarians, but independent book sellers, people who are actually highly. You've seen these like, like displays of banned books. So the, the, you know, the, the sad thing is actually, you know, to be fair, it's kids who probably need those books, not getting them.

[Jeff O'Neill]

They can't go buy them just because there was a Streisand effect about this book that got banned or something.

[David Shelley]

Exactly. So there's kids, you know, in all seriousness, there's kids in libraries who are not actually being able to access these books. But in terms of the actual sales of these books, when books do get banned, it is massively counterproductive. And there's a. There's a heap of other people out there who, I mean, we had this actually wonderful. But Lawn Boy by Jonathan Everson. I don't know if you know this book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I do know. I know Jonathan Evans. I haven't read that one, but I've read John.

[David Shelley]

It's a really good book. I have lit. I read it. I have no idea whatsoever why it was bad. But anyway, it was widely banned and it did really, really well because a lot of people were like, oh, what is this book? That's interesting. Like, me read it and thought, actually that's a great book. Recommended it to others. So I think, I think that the most effective thing a book banners could do is not keep panning.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, it's a game of. I mean, we're saying we're playing Mac and I'm putting us on the same side. David, that may be not fair, but I'll say for the. Provisionally, we're on the same side, at least for the moment. They're playing whack a mole too, because more books are going to come out, right? More authors are going to use more. More people like me are going to take an interview like this or publish a list like Book Riot. We do this all the time of like, we get our. Our metal is steeled by the idea that we can actually make a difference in putting out, let people know that these kinds of books exist. Like, we cannot. We cannot put into a third grader's hand in Tampa that couldn't get otherwise. That I cannot do. But we can do the other things that go alongside with it. One thing that I've seen, and I agree with you directionally, that it's kind of hard to hold this idea in the head, is that there's still a lot of work to be done inside the book industry about inclusivity and diversity. And yet a lot of work has been done and sort of not be complacent, but also not be demoralized. Like how do you find, does that accurate? Does that feel representative to you at all?

[David Shelley]

That does feel very accurate. And the one thing that is always on my mind and I feel the suppose personal responsibility of this that I. I degree I don't know how it happened, but I was talking to a young woman who wants to come into the industry, not a woman of color. And she was saying, I just hear such terrible things about the industry, industry that it makes me not want to come into it. And it kind of broke my heart. And I was like, I feel real responsibility to try to not be upbeat but you know, try not make anyone feel because I think then it becomes even worse if, if people do, you know, so, so it's on me, it's on us to kind of make this a, you know, a comfortable environment for everyone environment.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That feeling is going to trail the reality for a while. Like the reality is a way to go. But then like publishing has a bad rap for, you know, especially entry level, not connected. I mean, just to use the very stereotypical version, which has been true and still is true in some places, I think, like, you have to have family money so you can live in New York to take a terrible paying entry level editorial position to even climb on the ladder. Like. And I guess that leads me to another question in terms of how, you know, the progress still to be done, like things still to work on. What's the toughest part? What's the part that like feels like it moves the slowest or the, you know, the instruments you have at your disposal don't cut correctly. Like, what is the part that is, you know, the hardest rocks to break?

[David Shelley]

I mean, the hardest thing in all honesty is just people. It's a, in lots of ways a great industry. And so people want to stay in their jobs for as long as they can. What that means is that at senior.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Level that there's some inertia in terms of the turnover. Yes.

[David Shelley]

What are you going, you know, and look, and I'm so conscious, like I've done this job for eight years, I'm a white man. I'm really, really conscious of it that you can't, you know, the, the nice thing in a way with entry level jobs is they're always coming free because we've been promoted or, you know, whatever. But the difficult thing is you get into the C suite or, you know, get into, you know, senior publishers is, is, you know, people who love their jobs and are good at their jobs stay there for a long time and why shouldn't, why shouldn't they? But it does mean that the, it's, it's harder, it's harder at the more senior levels to, to make changes. And it does mean I, I, I feel whenever I'm making a senior hire, I, I think very carefully about it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And because they don't turn up, they don't come up, that is often come up that often. Often, yeah.

[David Shelley]

And that's the hardest thing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. This occurred to me. I was prepping for the interview and you may not, you may not have a take on this, but I'll ask it anyway. I was looking at, we did a, we did a segment on this a couple weeks ago. The Goodreads most popular books published in 2025 list or no, the most read last week. Pardon me, I retract that. And the 50 out of 50 were all white authors.

[David Shelley]

Wow.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I've been doing this long enough that I have seen the progress and I see where we still have to go on the kinds of books that are published, the kind of authors that get deals, work that has been done in the publishing industry in terms of the people in the chairs making decisions on what books it made and how they get made. The thing I don't know is how that translates into the books that are getting bought. Especially in this age of the algorithm where there are forces within those algorithms, both pernicious and not, I think, that are, do not share the same things that you, you know, they're not whacking the moles. We're trying to whack right here. And that the consumer ultimately is the ultimate arbiter of where their dollars go. And to, to this point now there's success stories, but writ large, that really gave me a sense of we don't have a Stephen King of color. Right. We don't have a James Patterson of we. We just don't have a freedom McFadden, a Colleen who like we, these people that have that really move so many units. And you know this better than anyone. How much like that top 10% of titles, number of titles in terms of units. It's so fat head with this kind of stuff. Is that something you guys considered like, okay, we can, we can, we can diversify our workforce. We can publish the books, we can get them. And yet the last step is to like, get, have people to give a shot. I mean, frankly, to have white people in America take a shot at someone that doesn't look like them.

[David Shelley]

Yeah. It's such a big, it's such a big question. And it's such an important question and it's something we talk about all the time. I mean one thing that I've been very interested in actually is the kind of science fiction and fantasy which if I look at you know, the sort of bright spots in times of diversity, it's sitting there. If I look at, you know, some of our only this is of course Backlist obviously, but Octavia Butler, right, incredibly well right now, incredibly well. And her sales have just lifted, you know, since her death, you know, tragic on time or 25 years ago, something like that, have just lifted and lifted and lifted. And particularly right now she's selling so well. NK Jemisin selling incredibly well. Our Orbit, we got Orbit, which you'll know, science fiction imprint who track the diversity of their authors. And that's running at about 33%, something like that. And if you look at the sales as well, it's, it's similar, it's similar. So I, I think there are, so.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That'S kind of like, that's, there's, there's a proof of life that like that's kind of the world we want to live in. It looks kind of like that there's something there.

[David Shelley]

And, and, and I would say as well we know from, we've got a great consumer insights team and one bit of consumer insights we know is that for younger readers. So if you're looking at kind of 16 to 24 year old readers, they now largely are very unwilling to read books that aren't in some way diverse cast of characters. They're very, very open slash, you know, sort of positive about, you know, what sort of author writes the book that they're reading in terms of ethnicity or sexuality or gender, whatever. And that readership for that category can, can go a lot younger. So I suppose what I'm saying is my hope is that the 16 to 24 year olds now will continue to read in that way to be much more say open minded about it, to be seeking out that. But it's on us as well, you know, to do our job in terms of marketing, to think laterally, to not, not necessarily just do all the things we've always done.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I want to ask a little about your history because you come from books, you started out as a junior person in books in the uk. This is not directly related. I'm now in Jeff curiosity land so I apologize to all the listeners that aren't right here getting decide what question to ask. Could you talk a little bit about how you've seen the world of Books and reading change over your career and then you made a, you know, you made a step change coming from the UK to us. Like what if you noticed, do you prefer all the UK covers? Like every American I talk to prefers the UK cover to the American covers. Do the UK people prefer the, Is this a. The COVID is always greener situation? David, talk to me about your journey and sort of the US UK stuff that you've noticed.

[David Shelley]

So I, yeah, so there are these funny regional things that people might not always know. So in the U.S. if it's A, if it's a novel, it always for whatever reason needs to say a novel on the front. That literally never happens in the UK whatever reason like US free does need to be.

[Jeff O'Neill]

People in the UK are just walking around like 1984 was a non. What's going on?

[David Shelley]

Yeah, like I don't ever read. UK readers seem to be able to know when something's normal without being told. American reasons are, I mean Americans. The hardcover market is much, much stronger here, right? You, I, I, I think lots of it. My perception, I've been in the industry about 30 years now. My perception now is each market like likes is kind of trained to like a certain way of publishing. So I'll give you some examples. So Ireland, which as you know is right next to the uk, the Republic of Ireland, they really like these large format paperbacks. These what we call C4.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah.

[Sponsor Voice]

Really?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I've never been in an Irish bookstore. I haven't seen those. Okay. I mean I know what you're talking about, but I haven't noticed that.

[David Shelley]

Yeah, so they love, so in the UK they don't we, they are only sold like in airports. But in Ireland that is a thing that they love and they will not have hardcore covers the same in Australia actually. They love these, these massive. And I think a lot of it is just what the bookmark, what the book publishers have thrown at a market for years and years. And I think in the US as publishers we've always said hard covers, hardcovers, hardcovers. And we've said, and I think the, I think the treatment of books looks to my eyes a British person more literary somehow. Over here it looks a bit more, I don't know, the covers are often more illustrative or something like.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, when you get into literary I, I think I hear what you're saying on the whole that when you get into literary fiction. I've been in the UK of late and looking at comp titles there was more of, I don't know, it looks More accessible in the UK on general. The COVID less like a work of art. Again, not my personal preference or really a judgment, just sort of bystander observation.

[David Shelley]

Yeah, I. I think definitely things. There's a presentational.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[David Shelley]

Here where things are. I would say in terms of the actual markets. One thing that's really surprised me is just how similar they are in terms of fiction. What works in one place will usually work in the other. I honestly can't think of. I actually can't think of any examples I think of in a really big American book that hasn't made it in the uk.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Has that been true through your career as far as you know? Or is that an Internet era thing? I wonder if that's more true than it used to.

[David Shelley]

It used to be more true than it used to be. Definitely. Definitely pre. You're completely right. Like pre Internet, I think. Or that things didn't go viral in the same way. I think that people are now pretty unaware, I suppose when they're looking at something on Booktok or Instagram or whatever where that post is coming from. I think it is making us as book publishers might think more about where we could do a cover that's the same in both markets. That is always my dream and marketing and publicity too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But that's on my side of the. That's where I sit from.

[David Shelley]

Just like, I mean for consumers it's like the world doesn't split up and when you. I mean you must have the same. When you try to explain to friends or whatever, oh well, the market is split in this particular way and then you have to try and get into.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, explaining why Booker Prize shortlist is not out here for six months. Okay, well I guess we'll do that.

[David Shelley]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No one can get it that way.

[David Shelley]

It's always a bit of a strange, infuriating. So. So I think I. I do think a lot of the time it's just our individual sort of prejudices or our conditioning in terms of a market. And I think actually often the same treatment works. I will say it's become harder and conversely it's saying American things always work in the uk. It's harder and harder for UK authors to translate in the US I think it's become more and more difficult to even really authors who sell extremely well in the uk. It's hard for them to break over here.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

I haven't really thought. I'll have to think about that a little bit. That's an interesting observation. I'll get you out on this and maybe it's something we've already talked about. So if we can, if we want to repeat or just put an extra checker on, that's fine. In from where you sit in the world of books and reading, what's the most exciting thing that's going on? Or that you're most like, what is this going to be? Or people should be paying attention to this. Or I would like to know. I'd like to get in my DeLorean and go 10 years into the future to see how this thing turns out. David, does anything strike you as being come to mind for that?

[David Shelley]

I mean, the thing which is not an original thing to say, but it's a true thing to say, is really the growth of audio.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And can we really keep growing like this? I mean, is that the.

[David Shelley]

Is that the situation exciting to me? And again, like, our insights team did some work on this and it's amazing. I think we've only. We haven't really even scratched the surface of the potential list.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I agree with that. Yeah.

[David Shelley]

You know that like, there's still so many people who are just discovering, you know, the free audiobook on Spotify or a kind of discovering Audible or do, you know, discovery.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Getting their Libby account set up through their library so they can get an audiobook.

[David Shelley]

And you know, the recent sober, you know, to go to something more sobering. The recent sobering statistic that only 16American.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I didn't want to bring it up, David. I didn't want to bring it, but.

[David Shelley]

But, you know, and everything, I guess being, you know, I try to be a bit Pollyanna ish. Like everything's a challenge and an opportunity, but that's like 84 of people who we could potentially reach. And I think that audio is the perfect way to do it. I think it's. I always think as book publishers, we need to meet people where they are. And I think where they are often is on their headphones. And I think audio is a great experience. Like you, you can. There are some books that I prefer to, you know, listen.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I agree. A memoir, the gold standard experience, free from a memoir, is an audiobook written or narrated by the authority. I mean, you know, that's, for me, that's the canonical experience of something like that. There's can't be beat.

[David Shelley]

So. So I think there's a combination of like all that audio experience that lots of people just haven't encountered before. When they do, it's a light bulb moment often. Right. Like I'd friends say, oh, you know, my God, I didn't realize it's the thing when they do, it's a light bulb moment. So that. And then the joy of long form content. I think that is what we have to offer. I think the world is getting more and more short form. I think that short form is really tempting for people. It's like these tiny, tiny little things. But actually the sort of joy that long form content brings you, this is the sort of sustained pleasure. The, the all the stuff we know about like the increase in mental health, all of that stuff like that is long form content. That's what we deal in. And I think audio is a brilliant way of delivering that to people. And I think you say looking in 10 years time, who knows what the potential is in 10 years time in terms of audio that would have been.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I can only imagine when you got started 30 years ago if someone said in 30 years audio is going to be. I'm not for certain non fiction titles, 80% of sales. It'll be 30% of the market growing 15 a year. I mean like you would be like what do you what people have record? Like what is happening? Like that would have been probably one of the biggest surprise I could, I could throw.

[David Shelley]

I'd be looking at those giant Louis Lamour cassette. Remember all those cassette tapes and I'd just be thinking what are you talking about?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, that's amazing. David, thank you so much for, for joining me today. This is a really interesting conversation. Appreciate you taking the time.

[David Shelley]

Great pleasure. I enjoyed it.

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