Book Riot - The Podcast Episode: The Big 5 Are Indeed Big, First Major AI Verdict Comes In, Remembering Tom Robbins, and more Release Date: February 17, 2025

Hosts: Jeff O'Neill and Rebecca Schinsky

1. Opening Remarks and Weather Updates (00:00 – 01:24)

Jeff O'Neill kicks off the episode with a spirited promotion for Marvel's upcoming "Daredevil Born Again" series on Disney Plus. Transitioning from Hollywood to Portland, Oregon, Jeff describes the harsh winter weather he's enduring:

Jeff O'Neill [00:34]: "I'm a thousand degrees below zero right now... 30 mile per hour winds and we're below wind chill."

Rebecca Schinsky responds with her own winter woes, detailing the challenges posed by freezing rain and structural damages experiencing in her area.

Rebecca Schinsky [00:56]: "...limbs coming down in the yard... three big holes in her roof right now."

2. Podcast and Publishing Updates (01:24 – 05:02)

The hosts delve into upcoming podcast content and publishing news. Jeff mentions their collaboration with Newsweek's First Edition and hints at an upcoming discussion on Sarah Chahaya's "Bibliophobia."

Jeff O'Neill [01:33]: "We are recording a little bit later for Patreon next week we're going to talk Life in Three Dimensions by Professor Shigero Oishi."

Rebecca highlights their next Patreon book club selection, "Death Takes Me" by Christina Rivera Gar, set for late February, and previews their mainstream feed discussion on Karen Russell's "Antidote."

3. Major AI Copyright Verdict (14:29 – 21:39)

One of the central discussions revolves around the landmark AI copyright case involving Thomson Reuters and Ross Intelligence. Rebecca provides an in-depth analysis:

Rebecca Schinsky [14:29]: "The judge here found that the product that Westlaw was producing using material illegally from Thomson Reuters was a market substitute and would infringe on and change the value."

Jeff and Rebecca explore the implications of the court's decision, emphasizing its potential impact on the AI and publishing industries. They debate the nuances of fair use, with Rebecca questioning whether similar protections would apply to authors like Lauren Grof.

Jeff O'Neill [16:04]: "None of these excuses hold water. I reject them all."

The discussion extends to possible appeals and the likelihood of the Supreme Court getting involved, with both hosts acknowledging the evolving legal landscape surrounding AI.

4. Remembering Tom Robbins (07:47 – 13:39)

Transitioning to a more reflective tone, Jeff honors the late Tom Robbins, a beloved author who passed away at 92. He shares his personal connection to Robbins' work, highlighting titles like "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues" and "Jitterbug Perfume."

Jeff O'Neill [07:56]: "Tom Robbins was really important to you."

Rebecca admits her unfamiliarity with Robbins but appreciates his literary contributions as Jeff elaborates on Robbins' unique narrative style and enduring legacy.

Rebecca Schinsky [10:45]: "Curiosity without borders."

Jeff muses on the timelessness of Robbins' writing, contemplating its relevance in 2025 and the scarcity of authors who capture a similar blend of the secular sacred, humor, and profundity.

5. Publishing Industry Insights: The Dominance of the Big Five (22:15 – 27:56)

Jeff and Rebecca analyze a graphic from Publishers Weekly illustrating the dominance of the Big Five publishers in hardcover fiction and nonfiction bestsellers for 2024. Key points include:

• Penguin Random House (PRH): Held a staggering 386 positions in hardcover fiction and 483 in nonfiction, accounting for 86% of combined listings.
• Macmillan: Notably climbed to third place in hardcover fiction thanks to Kristin Hannah's "Women."
• Sourcebooks: Dominated the trade paperback list with 31% of positions, primarily due to Frieda McFadden's titles.

Jeff O'Neill [25:00]: "PRH on the hardcover fiction hardcover list... are about as big in these position rankings as the other four of the big five combined."

Rebecca underscores the concentration of market power within the Big Five, yet acknowledges greater diversity in the trade paperback arena.

Rebecca Schinsky [26:04]: "There's still like 28, 25ish percent left there that are other publishers that are able to make a bigger showing."

6. Trends in Graphic Novels (35:00 – 36:45)

The hosts discuss the booming trend of graphic novels, particularly among younger readers. Referencing Elizabeth Seagrin's "Fast," they highlight significant growth statistics:

• Sales Increase: Graphic novel sales have doubled since 2019, reaching 35 million books annually.
• Elementary School Popularity: A 69% rise in interest among young readers.
• Parental and Educational Concerns: Despite growth, skepticism remains regarding the legitimacy of graphic novels as a reading medium.

Rebecca Schinsky [35:00]: "More than half of school librarians here have reported that they see parents and teachers be skeptical or concerned about, like, really the legitimacy of the graphic novel as a reading medium."

Jeff reframes the competition, suggesting that graphic novels contend more with digital entertainment than traditional books.

7. Harry Potter Series Casting and Adaptation News (38:33 – 45:24)

Jeff and Rebecca address the high-profile casting news for the new Harry Potter series, noting John Lithgow's role as Dumbledore. They express surprise and concern over the adaptation's direction, especially in light of J.K. Rowling's controversial public statements.

Rebecca Schinsky [39:02]: "This is a signal that they are going for heavy hitters... maybe trying to create a fully immersive adaptation."

The conversation touches on the cultural and ethical implications of supporting adaptations linked to authors with divisive beliefs, emphasizing the challenge of balancing fandom and personal values.

Rebecca Schinsky [43:59]: "We're in this together because we deserve to feel good. I want the best for you, for us."

8. Book Recommendations and Reviews (49:39 – 60:37)

Jeff's Picks:

• "Bibliophobia" by Sarah Chahaya: An exploration of the complex relationship between readers and books, challenging the glorified "Yay books" phenomenon.

  Jeff O'Neill [54:41]: "It's a welcome piece of the puzzle."

• "Raising Hair" by Chloe Dalton: A meditative memoir about a woman's life on a farm in England and her relationship with a hare she rescues.

  Jeff O'Neill [59:13]: "It's a coffee table picture book, I think."

• "How to Share an Egg" by Bonnie Weickert: A food memoir intertwining the author's family's history with her culinary experiences.

  Jeff O'Neill [60:12]: "It's a story of reckoning with her family's history and her own relationship to food."

Rebecca's Picks:

• "Shinsky Corps Stone Yard Devotional" by Charlotte Wood: Follows a middle-aged woman's spiritual journey in an Australian monastery.

  Rebecca Schinsky [49:39]: "It's written as if it's her journal... lovely meditative quality."

• "On Tyranny" by Timothy Snyder: A concise guide offering 20 lessons from the 20th and 21st centuries on resisting tyranny.

  Rebecca Schinsky [54:25]: "It's been really great."

9. Conclusion and Farewells (63:25 – 64:16)

Wrapping up, Jeff and Rebecca encourage listeners to explore their recommended reads and engage with the podcast's various platforms, including their website, Substack, Patreon, and Instagram.

Jeff O'Neill [63:56]: "Listen, whenever you're looking for that, let's do another sponsor break."

Rebecca signs off with appreciation for the audience's support and a preview of an audiobook excerpt.

Rebecca Schinsky [63:56]: "Have a good one. Thanks so much for listening today."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jeff O'Neill [01:33]: "Sometimes peace needs to be broken. Chaos must reign."

• Rebecca Schinsky [14:29]: "The judge here found that the product that Westlaw was producing using material illegally from Thomson Reuters was a market substitute."

• Jeff O'Neill [16:04]: "None of these excuses hold water. I reject them all."

• Jeff O'Neill [07:56]: "Tom Robbins was really important to you."

• Rebecca Schinsky [26:04]: "There's still like 28, 25ish percent left there that are other publishers that are able to make a bigger showing."

• Rebecca Schinsky [35:00]: "More than half of school librarians here have reported that they see parents and teachers be skeptical or concerned about, like, really the legitimacy of the graphic novel as a reading medium."

• Jeff O'Neill [60:12]: "It's a story of reckoning with her family's history and her own relationship to food."

Key Insights and Conclusions

1. Big Five's Dominance: The Big Five publishers continue to hold significant sway in the hardcover market, though Sourcebooks is making notable gains in trade paperbacks.

2. AI and Copyright Law: The recent verdict against Ross Intelligence sets a precedent that could restrict AI's use of copyrighted materials, emphasizing fair use's limits in the evolving tech landscape.

3. Remembering Influential Authors: Honoring literary figures like Tom Robbins underscores the enduring impact of unique narrative voices in shaping reader experiences.

4. Graphic Novels' Growing Legitimacy: The surge in graphic novel popularity among youth challenges traditional reading mediums, potentially fostering lifelong reading habits despite lingering skepticism.

5. Ethical Considerations in Adaptations: High-profile adaptations, especially those tied to controversial authors, raise questions about separating art from the artist and the responsibilities of media companies.

6. Diverse Literary Offerings: The podcast's book recommendations span a range of genres and themes, reflecting the hosts' commitment to showcasing varied literary voices and experiences.

For more detailed discussions and updates, visit podcastright.com and follow the Book Riot Podcast on Patreon and Instagram.