The Lambda Literary Awards, Messy Internet Discourse, the Latest A.I. Panic, and More

Summary

Book Riot – The Podcast

Episode: The Lambda Literary Awards, Messy Internet Discourse, the Latest A.I. Panic, and More

Hosts: Vanessa Diaz (filling in for Jeff and Rebecca) with Erica (Associate Editor)
Release date: March 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode is a jam-packed tour through recent news, controversies, and milestones in the book world. Vanessa and Erica dive into topics like the surprising origins of a classic hockey romance, celebrate the Lambda Literary Awards finalists, unpack the latest censorship battles, break down internet drama swirling around Lindy West’s memoir, and close with a meaty discussion on A.I.’s infiltration into publishing. The hosts, true to their meme-loving and bookish nature, offer plenty of personality, critical insights, and candid opinions.

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1. Hidden Hockey Romance: Don DeLillo as Cleo Birdwell

[06:00–15:21]

Key Points:

• Alexandra Alter’s NYT piece reveals that literary heavyweight Don DeLillo secretly published a raunchy hockey romance, Amazons, in the 1980s under the pseudonym Cleo Birdwell.
• DeLillo, known for philosophical, postmodern works like White Noise and Libra, wrote Amazons as a satirical faux-memoir about a female pro hockey player.
• The book—long out of print and disavowed by DeLillo—is being reissued, likely due to the current hockey romance boom (spurred by Heated Rivalry and similar queer romances).
• Hosts express mixed feelings, especially regarding a male author writing from the perspective of a woman in a ‘raunchy’ context, noting concerns about authenticity and dated sexism.

Notable Quotes:

• Vanessa:

  “If you had given me $50 to be like, hey, guess what author has like a secret hockey romance of a raunchy nature written under a pseudonym... I would never have guessed Don DeLillo.” [06:36]

• Erica:

  “Because of the time that he's writing from, and he's like, you know, a dude... If he's good at portraying, you know, female and femme interiority, then okay, it could be good. But a lot of, you know, people are not good at stepping outside of their perspective.” [11:03]

• Vanessa:

  “It's described as this wild comedy sex romp. And, like, maybe that makes me scared.” [12:31]

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2. Celebrating Queer Lit: 38th Lambda Literary Award Finalists

[15:21–20:57]

Key Points:

• The finalists’ list shows broad representation—dozens of categories, including gay, lesbian, bisexual, and trans fiction, nonfiction, poetry, drama, YA, and children’s books.
• Highlights include The Autobiography of H. Lan Tao Lam by Laina Lin, Hunger Stone by Kat Dunn, Marsha: The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson by Tourmaline, Bed and Breakfast by Susie Dumond, and Alligator Tears by Edgar Gomez.
• Vanessa and Erica share that the list is both dauntingly excellent and a crucial countermeasure to rising censorship.

Notable Quotes:

• Vanessa:

  “More important now than ever to, yeah, shout those books out... whether that means leaving a review for the book, obviously purchasing, checking out from libraries, all the things that we, we talk about all the time on this podcast.” [19:08]

• Erica:

  “How lovely it is that there have been so many... it’s been a great year for queer lit and that there are so many options to choose from when it comes to these awards.” [19:16]

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3. Censorship in Action: Librarian Under Threat in Rutherford County

[22:12–29:02]

Key Points:

• Librarian Luann James faces possible firing for refusing to remove books as ordered by the local board, bypassing standard challenge processes.
• The board demanded the removal of dozens of titles, requested personal data of library patrons—major privacy violation—and banned participation in Banned Books Week.
• Hosts emphasize the constant, tireless work of advocates like Kelly Jensen (Book Riot’s censorship tracker) and encourage listener activism.

Notable Quotes:

• Vanessa:

  “Luann James... says, like, ‘I will not comply.’ In fact, it’s the name of the headline that we gave to this piece... my job as a library director is to protect access to these specific materials.” [25:35]

• Erica:

  “Get involved with your local library, see how you can support them. Because Kelly has written many times before about how a lot of these book bans are coming from a. Actually, a small group of people. Believe it or not, there it's a small group of people.” [27:01]

• Erica:

  “I think people are too quick to capitulate to these, like, bullies, you know?” [28:08]

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4. Messy Internet Discourse: Lindy West’s Memoir & Reviewer Fallout

[30:19–43:14]

Key Points:

• Lindy West’s new memoir, Adult Braces, explores her marriage’s transition into polyamory following a public YouTube announcement. The memoir reveals that the arrangement began under difficult, and possibly unethical, circumstances.
• Sachi Cole wrote a nuanced review/interview in Slate, discussing the book’s content and ethical complexities.
• Lindy West’s husband emailed Cole and Slate, claiming bias and perceived personal attack. Roya, the new partner, also publicly criticized the coverage.
• This escalated into open, meme-fueled social commentary (notably Roxane Gay’s viral quip), with the internet largely siding with Cole—highlighting expectations for public authorship, fairness in critique, and the persistent perils of author/critic engagement online.

Notable Quotes:

• Roxane Gay (via Erica reading on air):

  “Whoo. I don't listen to podcasts much, but I just voluntarily... listened to one for the first time ever, the episode of ICYMI about Lindy West's new book... Husbands just be out here doing embarrassing and unacceptable things sometimes.” [35:42]

• Vanessa:

  “If you’re going to put a book out in the world, and I feel this way about anything... there’s going to be a response. There’s very little you can do about that response.” [36:09]

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5. Book Adaptation Buzz: Bridgerton’s Sapphic Season Announced

[43:15–44:44]

Key Points:

• Bridgerton Season 5 announcement: Focuses on Francesca with a sapphic storyline (with a Black female love interest, changing the character’s gender from Quinn’s original novels).
• The internet is divided (“people are all in just a tizzy”), but showrunner Shonda Rhimes has always intended the adaptation to be inclusive and subversive.
• Both hosts express strong support for these creative, inclusive updates.

Notable Quotes:

• Vanessa:

  “If you love you some Bridgerton and are excited, go watch the announcement trailer and get ready for Season 5.” [44:26]

• Erica:

  “I would also be on board if Shonda Rhimes came up to me and said she wanted to adapt. Be like, yeah, girl, what you need to change, whatever you want.” [44:34]

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6. The Latest AI Panic: “Shy Girl” and Industry Unpreparedness

[44:47–59:20]

Key Points:

• NYT’s Alexandra Alter covers the case of Shy Girl, a horror novel, initially self-published (cover: crying Borzoi), composed ~78% with A.I.
• The author, Mia Ballard, claims an acquaintance edited the manuscript using A.I.—Hachette and Orbit cancel U.S. release amidst controversy.
• Huge boom in self-publishing (2025 saw 3.5M self-pub books, compared to 642K trad-pub), much of it potential A.I. “slop.”
• Current A.I. detection is imperfect, and publishers lack consistent policy or means to screen for A.I.-written books. Ethical, aesthetic, and logistical questions abound: Can/should publishers fact-check fiction for A.I.? Is “honor system” enough? Will this deluge undermine book quality?
• Debate over whether readers can or care to distinguish A.I. prose (“gaps in logic,” “melodramatic adjectives,” repetitive phrasing), with the reality that some readers may not mind or notice A.I. work—raising fears about the future of human authorship.

Notable Quotes:

• Vanessa:

  “This is a really big conversation, right? People feeling really duped by the idea that the thing that they're reading is not something that like an actual human wrote... How do you get in front of this?” [48:26]

• Erica:

  “Would I be able to detect AI writing?... There are plenty of real people's writing who I know I don't care for.” [59:20]

• Vanessa:

  “All I know is that this problem is sticky and yeah, somebody needs—lots of people are going to have to continue to contend with this problem, I think, in the months, days, years, etc.” [58:19]

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7. Rapid-Fire Book Recommendations: Frontlist Foyer

[61:07–65:37]

Books Vanessa Loves:

• The Beheading Game — “What if Anne Boleyn survived her beheading... and maybe made a friend of a female variety in the way that might be more than a friend? Legit opens with her waking up in a coffin... It just did.” [62:20]
• Black Out Loud: The Revolutionary History of Black Comedy from Vaudeville to 90s Sitcoms by Jeff Bennett — “Any book getting into Martin, Fresh Prince, Living Single... I rewatch Living Single like every year!” [64:03]

Erica’s Picks:

• Psychopomp and Circumstance — “Southern Gothic fantasy set during Reconstruction era; follows young Black woman Fee... it’s short but full of secrets.” [62:39]
• Aisha by Soraya Buazawi — “Moroccan resistance against the Portuguese; magical girl with rage and something living beneath her skin... I think it’s going to be a bloodbath in the end, but like, you know the type that's cathartic.” [64:39]

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Memorable and Funny Moments

• Mean Girls Reference:
  Vanessa: “‘She doesn’t even go here’...Thank you for teeing up what I was trying really hard... Do I say it?” [29:13]

• On Shonda Rhimes’ License:
  Erica: “My firstborn. No, I’m just kidding, but Shonda Rhimes, how do you...” [44:44]

• AI Writes Like Erica:
  Erica: “The writing was like, ‘Oh, honey, let me tell you.’ Yes... I was like, I've never said that.” [60:04]

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Key Takeaways and Themes

• Publishing is at a Crossroads: The proliferation of AI-generated writing is causing industry whiplash, forcing urgent questions about detection, disclosure, and what “authorship” means.
• Queer Lit and Censorship: The Lambda Awards highlight the strength and diversity of queer literature, yet the battle for access and fair representation in libraries is fiercer than ever.
• Bookish Internet is Still Messy: From literary scandals old and new (Amazons, Lindy West) to fandoms “in a tizzy” about inclusive adaptations, the internet remains ablaze with conversation—and not always in the most productive way.
• Support Libraries & Diverse Books: Book bans are real, ongoing, and fueled by small-but-vocal groups. Readers must advocate at local levels.
• Even the Biggest Names Have Secrets: Don DeLillo’s “secret” past as a racy romance author is a juicy reminder of literary multitudes and the unexpected intersections between “serious” and “genre” fiction.

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Useful Timestamps

• [06:00] — Don DeLillo’s “Amazons” and the origins of the hockey romance genre
• [15:21] — Lambda Literary Award Finalists discussion
• [22:12] — Censorship and the Luann James/Rutherford County saga
• [30:19] — The mess with Lindy West’s memoir and internet fallout
• [43:15] — Bridgerton’s sapphic next season
• [44:47] — The “Shy Girl” AI publishing panic
• [61:07] — Frontlist Foyer: rapid-fire book recommendations

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Final Words

This episode is a dense, playful, passionate exploration of the bookish zeitgeist—balancing industry rumors, literary prizes, the gritty realities of censorship, and the weirdness of our AI-soaked present. Vanessa and Erica bring their candid, meme-literate sensibilities throughout, making the podcast engaging and essential for anyone who loves books, drama, and the wild world that surrounds them.

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Full list of mentioned titles and links to referenced articles are available at [Thrift Books] and in the show notes.

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“Go get in love with your libraries. Go read this piece. It is really important stuff. And like, definitely show support to your local librarians and educators because it is hard out here in these streets.”
— Vanessa Diaz [29:29]

Transcript

[Erica]

Ugh.

[Vanessa Diaz]

You said you were over him, but his hoodie's still in your rotation. It's time. Grab your phone, snap a few pics, and sell it on Depop. Listed in minutes with no selling fees. And just like that, a guy 500 miles away just paid full price for your closure.

[Erica]

And right on cue.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Hey.

[Erica]

Still got my hoodie?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Nope.

[Erica]

But I've got tonight's dinner paid for.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste list.

[Erica]

Now with no selling fees, payment processing

[Vanessa Diaz]

fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table,

[Erica]

everyone talking all at once.

[Vanessa Diaz]

So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9% of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop [e-mail]. This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm managing editor Vanessa Diaz filling in for Jeff and Rebecca today, and I have a special guest with me here today, and that is our associate editor, Erica. Say hello, Erica.

[Erica]

Hi.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I am so glad you're here with me today. We haven't gotten a chance to podcast in quite some time.

[Erica]

I know. It's. It's always fun to podcast with you and I, and I am also happy to finally be able to do it again because we, too, are some supreme meme yappers.

[Vanessa Diaz]

We are. And there are so many great links to talk about. We're going to really, really try hard to pack these all in because there's all kinds of sort of juicy book news. We've got some stuff about hockey, romance from an unexpected source. We've got some stuff about AI. We have censorship, which unfortunately just continues to be a, you know, thing at all times. We've got some cool awards. We're gonna see if we can pack this all in. We are both, you know, like champion yappers, so some of this may get more of an honorable level mention, but we want to bring you as much news as we we can. So we're going to get into all that in just a second here. But first, let's hear from a sponsor.

[Erica]

Today's episode is brought to you by 11 reader. If you listen to audiobooks a lot, the narrator problem can be so real. 74% of audiobook listeners have stopped or considered stopping a book because of the narrator's voice. 11 Reader helps by letting you choose from more than a thousand natural sounding voices for any title. You can even design your own narrator. So there are are more than 50,000 audiobooks to choose from. There are bestsellers, hidden gems, and guilty pleasures. The catalog spans every genre and you can pick the narrator that fits the story and you can listen to anything. You can turn your documents, your PDFs, your eBooks into lifelike audiobooks. This gives you the freedom to upload any text and hear it read in studio quality voices. Your reading list becomes a listening list. There's premium listening at a fair price and plans start lower than Audible with no credit credits to track or expire. And you can of course cancel anytime. So you get three days premium entirely free. Try before you commit. It's available on iOS, Android and the web. Just go to bookriot.com 11reader Again, that's bookriot.com 11reader and thanks again to 11reader for sponsoring this episode.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Porquepa garci puedesar TikTok e free tedeja bajar el presio asta sero descarga TikTok busca free y comparte link para consegir productos gratis en PSA Sharja get in the game with the College Branded Venmo Debit Card Rep your team with every tap and earn up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash, a new rewards program from Venmo. No monthly fee, no minimum balance, just school pride and spending power. Get in the game and sign up for the Venmo debit [e-mail] collegecard the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank NA Select Schools available Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply at Venmo me stash terms max 100 cash back per

[Erica]

month

[Vanessa Diaz]

okay, I'm going to quickly do some housekeeping stuff, so it is somehow already time for us to start thinking about the Moms, Dads and Grads episode. That season is quite quickly upon us. For those of you who are not familiar, this is an episode that Jeff and Rebecca do every year where they're quite literally looking for your rec or your questions like your recommendation requests for gifts or heck, reads for yourself. Totally up to you. But because we've got all the, you know, celebratory events and holidays around Moms, Dads and Grads tis the season. So if you have a question that you would like to ask in the realm of, you know, what kinds of gifts to give for other people, for yourself. Combination of the two. Please send those in to Jeff and [e-mail] Other mamilk say that again. Other Housekeeping things Just a reminder that the zero to well read podcast is plugging right along. This last episode is up now and it is a really cool mailbag episode where Jeff and Rebecca took questions from readers that are about everything from sort of how to attack difficult reading, how to keep reading when it's really hard to do. So it's a great kind of, yeah, Q and A style episode that you can go listen to. So that will be in the feed now. And there's plenty of really great titles coming up. I know that because I get to preview that stuff as the writer of the free companion newsletter. So if you have not yet checked out the podcast, that's available wherever you listen to podcasts and there will be links in the show notes, it's also something that you can go find on Patreon. If you want early ad free access to the podcasts, there is a paid membership tier that will get you that. Or again, sign up for the free companion newsletter for each of those episodes, which is written by yours truly. So that's all the housekeeping stuff. Now that that's out of the way, let's see, what should we talk about? Why don't we do some hockey romance stuff?

[Erica]

I was thinking. That sounds good.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. Fantastic. So there is a fantastic piece in the New York Times by Alexandra Alter that is about a hockey romance. And when I said from an unexpected source, it's because most of us, I feel like we hear hockey romance these days and you're probably thinking, you know, heated revelry. And that would make sense because of course, that is the show that everybody is still very much on about. It's based on Rachel Reed's oh my gosh, is it Game Changer? Yeah, Game Changers series. Those books continue to chart. Everybody's all about that. I keep, I'm seeing lots of other kind of hockey romances make their way out, you know, into the world now, which is great. But there is an author who, if you had given me $50 to be like, hey, guess what author has like a secret hockey romance of a raunchy nature written under a pseudonym in, like, deep in their catalog, I would never have guessed who that is. And that is writer Don DeLillo. Are you familiar with Don DeLillo's work?

[Erica]

I'm really not. I started becoming more familiar with his work when you sent me the link

[Vanessa Diaz]

to discuss approximately 48 hours ago. Great, great, great.

[Erica]

Yeah. Are you from. Have you ever read any of his work or.

[Vanessa Diaz]

No, I have meant. I have white Noise somewhere. So that's a good, I guess, way

[Erica]

to put it in the story. I've heard of it, like, very. I was gonna say he sounds familiar to me, but I have. I'm not like, you know, I've seen his stuff, like, in bestseller lists and, like, you know, mentioned here and there. But this is so, like, the first. The first line in the article, it says that he secretly published a raunchy satire about a female professional hockey player. And I'm already like, okay, why is it Secret Girl? Like, bring it to the forefront. Yeah. Like, okay. I mean, people have. People have.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I mean, I don't know, multitudes.

[Erica]

I saw in the article, it was talking about how it was meant. It was written as a memoir.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. So. So, okay, so let's do a little bit of Don DeLillo. So Dondolo, who. I mean, many of our listeners probably already know who he is, but in case you don't, he is known for, quote unquote, very, like, serious books. Which. That's not meant to be, like, a value comment. It's just that his books are very tonally different than what this is like. He's written books like White Noise, Americana, Libra. White Noise is, I think, the one that I feel like comes up the most. But his stuff is, like, dark humor. It's often very philosophical. It's like, postmodern. He's his. The topics in these books is stuff like digital age and, like, tech anxiety, nuclear war. One of them is about the assassination of jfk. Like, so that's, again, tonally where his books generally sit. So that's why when you read that Don DeLillo, of all people, like, secretly published. Yeah. This raunchy satire about a female professional hockey player. Like, that's already kind of like a record scratch moment. But then the book itself. Yeah. Was written under a pen name. That pen name is Cleo Birdwell. Because why not? And the book was called Amazons. And it is. It was basically written as though it were that person's memoir of this real experience. But apparently he was outed as the author, like, pretty early on. Like, this isn't, like, a thing that stayed secret for a very long time. But he's never really liked talking about it because, again, he was trying to carve out, I think, a very different lane for himself in, like, his, you know, literary career. So he's kind of avoided talking about it, but now he's almost 90. And yeah, so he's. He's, you know, up there. So he's got a very well established career and apparently folks have kind of. They've been bugging him to release it again for a very long time, but only. And he's declined every time, but only now due to that combination of. Yeah. Hockey, romance. Having a moment because of the heated rivalry buzz. Apparently his wife and I think an author friend, like, read it recently, like, very recently. And we're cackling at how apparently it's a very, like, funny book. At least, you know, in their estimation. I've never read it, obviously, but, you know. Yeah, I guess maybe the thinking is that because he's so established in his career, he's 90, like, what does he have to prove? Sort of thing that people were like, yeah, why not? Like, let's. Let's do this. So it is being reprinted, you know, 40 years deep. And it is again, never read it. I don't even know that it's actually available for print yet. I think that's coming soon. But it is a pretty funny premise when you read, like, the bits of what it's about because it's, you know, this woman's alleged experience in a very, like, sexist place. But it's apparently, again, very raunchy. There is a piece in the article that talks about a section where, like, her love interest becomes aroused when she starts describing, like, the Christmas traditions of her small Ohio town. And that's like almost a verbatim thing I pulled from this.

[Erica]

What in the world.

[Vanessa Diaz]

The photo of the. The book is like, straight, plucked from a different time. Yeah, it's like a pair of legs, one of which is wearing, you know, like a golden stiletto and the other which has, like, a skate. And it's. It's just the. And it's almost the fanny of sports novels.

[Erica]

Oh, Lord.

[Vanessa Diaz]

So anyway, what are you thinking about this?

[Erica]

I honestly, I almost feel like a Debbie Downer because I. There's a lot about this that I kind of not jiving with to be hon. I think some of it's, like, funny, obviously, like you said, I haven't read the book either because it's been buried, but, like, just. Okay, so he wrote this secret novel which is really. Which was presented as a memoir from the perspective of a female hockey player. And it's raunchy and I'm already like. Because of the time that he's writing from, and he's like, you know, a dude And I'm like, all right, if he's a good writer. And of course he's a good writer to many people. I just haven't read his work. Yeah, I'm just like, if he's good at portraying, you know, you know, female and femme interiority, then okay, it could be good. But a lot of, you know, people are not good at stepping outside of their perspective. So I'm like. I'm already like. And so that's why, you know, things like own voices exist and stuff like that. So.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, then I. No, I was just gonna say I think you have. I think you're well within your rights, as am I. To be like, question mark.

[Erica]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

For all of the reasons you just articulated. I mean, just given when it was published. How. How stuff from that time and again, plenty of people were doing great work back then, too. This is not to disparage Delolo's work, which, again, I just said I have not read, but.

[Erica]

Exactly.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I think there is reason to at least have a modicum of concern going into something that was written at this point. This point when we. There. I don't know, it was just more socially acceptable. Whether or not it should have been. Of course it shouldn't have. But to attach these things in a very, like, sexist way. And I. I don't know, I'm not, like, incredible. It might end up being very fun. It's described as this wild comedy sex romp. And, like, maybe that makes me scared.

[Erica]

I'm like. Because I've seen what some of y' all find funny, but that's not even. That's not even a real thing. That's. That's not the only thing that's giving me pause. It's like he's ashamed of it, but now he's like, well, people are like, oh, now you should do it, because, you know, he did rivalry. And I'm like, you should have just, you know, released it, you know, that

[Vanessa Diaz]

owned it a long time ago.

[Erica]

Exactly.

[Vanessa Diaz]

It's also very different from, like, you know, one of the beauties of this particular, you know, heated rivalry moment is, of course, is that it's subversive for a bunch of different ways because it's queer. And, you know, the hockey romance in general is having a moment both in queer and non. Queer varieties. And that's fine. But, like, I don't know, the. The. There's just a lot I think be maybe cautious about in the, like, this is the moment for me to finally put this out.

[Erica]

Yeah, exactly.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That I. I do have A lot of questions about, but I guess that will be for the masses to decide.

[Erica]

I do like Cleo Birdwell. I do the pin name.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I will. I kind of ate with that.

[Erica]

Yeah. I'm like, all right, Ms. Cleo.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Okay, girl, you know, I'll give you the Cleo Bird. Well, yeah, and I would love. Actually, I would love to know, as though Don DeLillo was listening to this podcast. Like, somebody please tell me how that name was come up.

[Erica]

Yeah, how did that. I like how it's the reverse of, like, you know, a lot of women writers throughout history have. Have gotten or donned more masculine names so they can be taken seriously. And he's like, Cleo. Yeah. So he can publish his raunchy female hockey player satire memoir thing.

[Vanessa Diaz]

We can move on from this shortly here. But it does really surprise me that this has never come up for me because I have done like, I think a post at one point, and I've definitely, if not written about it, definitely just been super interested in, like, books that were published, you know, either for satirical reasons or just for straight up fraud reasons that were presented at one thing when they were another, like the golas, you know, controversies, etc.

[Erica]

Yes.

[Vanessa Diaz]

It's really surprising to me that this never in any way came up for me as like, oh, by the way, this, you know, and maybe it's because it was unmasked so early on that it hasn't made its way into those conversations.

[Erica]

Well, Cleo masked it. Cleo hit it. Clearly said, you're not hearing this from me.

[Vanessa Diaz]

The bird did well.

[Erica]

Well hit. Yes. Buried. Yes.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Well, I mean, may his word. Curious if it's good, but yeah, we'll. We'll have to wait and see what. What this turns into. All right, let us. Let's see. Where should we go next? Do you have a preference on what we. We talk about here?

[Erica]

Let's talk about the Lambda Literary finalists.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, I would love to. Yes. So this is a very exciting award, the Lambda Literary. Oh, my gosh. I just always call them Lambda Literary. Is that the association? Let's just go with Lambda Literary. They've just announced their finalists for the 38 Lambda Literary Awards. These are, of course, an award that gives homage and celebration to queer books. And the categories are many. We did the announcement up on Book Riot, but we also will have the link to the actual list of the finalists [e-mail] there are so many fantastic books on this. I haven't read any nearly as many as I wish. Yeah, but there is Some really good stuff on here. Have you read any of these?

[Erica]

Oh, my God, I don't think so. There. There are quite a few on here that are on my list just to. That were already on my list before they became finalists, which were the Autobiography of H. Lan Tao Lam by Laina Lin, Hunger Stone by Kat Dunn, Marcia. The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P. Johnson by Tourmaline and also Bed and Break up by Susie Dumond, who I edit sometimes because she's a contributing writer at Book Riot. Hey, girl. Also, Alligator Tears by Edgar Gomez. We had a little laugh before this because I was like, oh, I saw Edgar at Tin House last year.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Erica's very cool. I went to the Tin House workshop this year and likes to torment me by telling me all the cool people she hung out with.

[Erica]

It was really funny. I'm so glad to hear that. But I have so many more to add to my list because of this.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That's what I was gonna say. Like, there's so many categories. I mean, just to name a few, there's bisexual fiction, bisexual nonfiction, bisexual poetry, gay fiction, gay memoir, biography, gay poetry, gay romance, lesbian. In all the same categories. There's stuff for anthologies, there's. For children's books. Like, it is a really expansive. I mean, there's. There's drama, middle grade, just.

[Erica]

Just a.

[Vanessa Diaz]

This beautiful range of different kinds of representation broken out into all these different genres and formats. More books here than I could possibly try to finish in a year. But Erica shouted out a lot of the ones that have been on my list. In trans fiction, the Lilac People is one that's been kind of taking my brain because I thought I was done with the World War II stuff, not because there's anything wrong with it, but because it's just been done so much. But this is a queer World War II novel that I've heard such fantastic things about. So I really, really want to get into to that. In LGBTQ YA books, Camila Nunez's Year of Disasters is so, so good. I read that one and loved it. And it is kind of what it sounds like. It's a young girl who's like, yeah, this is my year. And then everything is like absolute crap. But it's really beautiful, like self reflection. It's just a beautiful work of, like, Latina ya, queer YA that I loved. Yeah. Again, the categories, there are many that. The nominees are many. So we couldn't possibly get into all these. But, like, the Disco Witches of Fire island is one I've had on my list. A Gentleman's Gentleman by T.J. alexander. Definitely want to shout out Susie's title. Bed and Breakfast. It is so cute and was written in part and like inspired by like parts of Arkansas that she's actually from. Including the. I think the hotel she wrote part of the book at. Or like the bnb, I should say is like the BNB in the book.

[Erica]

She's from Arkansas. Arkansas, yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

She lives in D.C. now, but is originally from. At least if I remember from her author event. That's where she's originally. I know that's where she has a lot of family. Cool. All right. But yeah, like Baldwin, A Love Story is nominated. The Marsha P. Johnson book. Yeah. By Torma. There's. There's like, you could just. Oh, God, there's so many great books on this list and I cannot wait to see who actually takes the awards. But like, I do not envy whoever actually has to pick this because the nominees are really, really, really, really good. Yeah. Great list and just.

[Erica]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Congratulations to all the nominees. It's been a really, really great year for queer fiction or queer. Queer lit of all kinds.

[Erica]

And how lovely it is that there have been so many. Like you said, it's been a great year for queer lit and that there are so many options to choose from when it comes to this award or these awards, rather.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. Especially in a year when everybody. Not everybody. Sorry, that's really generalist of me. But when we're just continue to be in this unprecedented wave of book banning and censorship efforts, it's very important to support queer lit. The notion that I sometimes see passed around that is so, so flawed that, you know, it's quote, unquote, good for an author to get their book banned because it creates publicity and efforts is just so flawed for many reasons. Like this is. It's a detriment to folks from queer backgrounds. So please support and shout about queer lit all the chances that you get, whether or not they're on this particular list. It's just more important now than ever to, yeah, like, shout those books out. Whether that means leaving a review for the book, obviously purchasing, checking out from libraries, all the things that we, we talk about all the time on this podcast.

[Erica]

I feel like we should see more protests. Not this, not to, not to discount the people who are protesting. There are some people who are really putting their backs into resisting the censorship and book banning and everything like that. But it just, it just feels like, you know, book banning has not reached the mainstream. Mainstream as much. It's like, you know, people within the Book world know about it, Librarians, Pub, you know, publishing, us. And then. And I say that because people are like, oh, it's good that you get your book band, like you just said, because they don't understand it. Because I feel like it just hasn't reached them yet. And the severity of it and the importance of it hasn't, like, really reached them yet. The general.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, no, that's. Which is a really good segue to something that we'll talk about in just a second here. But yeah, there is, I think if you're really entrenched in these conversations because either you are a reader and you're active on social, or like us, where you, like, work in the industry in some way, shape or form, whatever part of that industry it is that you're in, it can be easy to think that this is a conversation that everybody's just aware of, but that just, frankly, is not the case. Every day. I still will see what I consider to be like a relatively big author, you know, will suddenly kind of pop up onto social being like, hey, guys, it's time to care about book banning and, like, not to, you know, poo poo their attempts there because I'm glad that they're getting involved. But, you know, as Kelly. Kelly's ears are ringing somewhere and she doesn't know why. Screaming for years. Yeah, like, this is. This has been something that people have been talking about for a really long time. This is where I'll plug a recent episode that I did on this very feed about the librarians documentary that everyone should go watch because it is a really great kind of snapshot of the early days and a fight that continues to this day for. Against, you know, the book banning and censorship effort. So, yeah, I'm going to segue that into a bummer of a piece that is up on book right now. But before we do that, let's really quickly hear from a sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get [e-mail] own the dream. New Maybelline Serum Lipstick. 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But Kelly has continues to do such, you know, dogged coverage of censorship stuff online. And one of the late the stories that went up this week is one about a librarian in Rutherford county library system. And this is a story about Luann James, who was hired as the director for this library system in summer of 2025. She was immediately upon taking this position, met with a different slate of board officers and the ones who had hired her weeks earlier. So already I think was like, hey, some something's up here. Like, this is a little bit strange, but okay, you know, let's see how this goes. But it became very, very, very clear very quickly that her values and the values of this board that she was now gonna be working with were very, very different. She asked for whistleblower protections really early on into her position. So again, she's hired in the summer of 2025. This starts happening in November of 2025 because of this whole slate of reasons. Like on her second day of work, the board president demanded that she remove this huge list of books from the library collection and specifically was asking her to do so. And by bypassing the formal challenge process that is supposed to be in place for this kind of thing to happen. Just boop. Including review by the board, which is what the board is supposed to be there for. The board chair also asked her for personal information of library patrons, including names, addresses, zip codes, and like how many kids and adults are in each household, which is this blatant violation. That is the right response, right? Lots of other stuff, including asking her to review like open records requests. Anyway, it's just violation upon violation. And so that's when she', like, hey. And also, she was not allowed or no, her. Her particular district was not allowed. Her library system wasn't allowed to participate in Banned Books Week. But that was hardly the end. There's so much more that's continued to happen that flows all the way into 2026 that has to do with just these constant challenges. There's been tons and tons of meetings, and they almost all follow the same format where, like, first there's people who are there to contest the book bands, and there's people to request the book bans, and then the board has to consider it. It seems like, again, most of the board is sort of at odds with, like, the way that, you know, the values that she brings. But she's been doubling down and says, like, I will not comply. In fact, it's the. The name of the headline that we gave to this piece is she's like, I'm not removing these books. Like, my job as a library director is to protect access to these specific materials. And so she's at risk of losing her job. And that's what this particular piece is about. You can read all about it and of course, try to help her keep her job by voicing your opinion, especially if you're in this district. But this is just unfortunately, one story of many that almost, if you're not careful, can bleed into every other story that you read, because the story is far from unique at this point. And that's such a real bummer. But, yeah, in case anybody was trying to convince you that things are, you know, getting better, it's like there is still. I mean, again, if you listen to this podcast, you. You already know this inevitably, but the book banning efforts are going really, really strong and are only being further emboldened by, you know, policies from on high. So, yeah, I just said a lot of words.

[Erica]

Yeah. And a lot of important words. And even in the. In the first paragraph of this article that Kelly wrote, she mentions how the Library Bill of Rights requires library workers to uphold the right to read and to speak out against efforts to remove the First Amendment rights of American citizens as they relate to the public library. And that's just me reading it straight from the article. And so this administration obviously doesn't seem to care about, like, law, what's legal, but still, it's literally her job to do what she's doing, and she's sticking by it, even though she faces what seems to be illegal and what would be an illegal firing, because, again, she's following the code of ethics for Libraries. But this is also a good reminder to, if you haven't already, like, get involved with your local library, see how you can support them. Because Kelly has written many times before about how a lot of these book bands are coming from a. Actually, a small group of people. Believe it or not, there it's a small group of people. It's like, have many feelings about this. I mean, this. This can kind of be extrapolated to what's going on in the country overall. But it's like, I think people are too quit. Quit too quick. Excuse me? A lot of people are too quick to capitulate to these, like, bullies, you know?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Erica]

And it's like, just. Just say no. It's like we. We kind of outnumber them. But the minority, the voices are loud.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, exactly.

[Erica]

They're loud. And so they speak up for what they want, which is, you know, book banning, and then they get it because people just fold over. So that's why it's like, it's important to, you know, show up to town hall meetings, get involved with your local library. It might not require that much effort, honestly. Get your friends to do it. Like, just be like, all right, you know, make a little event of it. I don't know. I was speaking to a friend recently, and we were talking about volunteering. Not necessarily with the library, but, you know, just. I think building community is the antidote to, you know, wild running capitalism and all this stuff. But, yeah, I mean, look up how you can support her. All those things. All those things are important. Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Show up to your libraries again. One of the other things that always blows me away is that, like, how many times you hear these really loud people in the room, and then they're like, do you have a kid that goes here to the school? You're like, no, but you're like, sit down.

[Erica]

What is the thing for Mean Girls? You don't. She doesn't. She didn't even go here.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Absolutely. Thank you for teeing up. What? I was trying really hard. Like, do I say it? Yes.

[Erica]

Yes.

[Vanessa Diaz]

People.

[Erica]

You always quote Mean Girls. It's the movie. One of the defining movies of our generation.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Generation. True, true. Yes. I recently did. I. I broke the tie at a trivia event recently when they were like, what important day is mentioned or, like, celebrated in mean girls? Like, October 3rd, and it was great.

[Erica]

Wait, what was that information? I didn't hear you.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, it was. It was a trivia event. And, like, it was. Two teams were tied, and that's what the tiebreaker question I don't remember how it was phrased, but it was like, what, what? Like famous day is like, celebrated in homage to like, mean girls because the date is mentioned in the film. And I was like, October 3rd. Like that. That was an easy one. Like it. It was October 3rd. Anyway, that was a lovely little tangent, but anyway, yes, go get in love with your libraries. Go read this piece. It is really important stuff. And like, definitely show support to your local librarians and educators because it is hard out here in these streets.

[Erica]

In these streets. Let's see, now that we've talked about serious things, can we get a messy.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, should we go into that? The messy messy. Great, great. Please. So there is a new memoir out by Lindy west that you may have heard of called Adult Braces. Lindy west is somebody who's very well known, I think at this point in the literary world, has really carved out a place for herself as a feminist writer who's written for all kinds of places. But think Jezebel. Her books include. Oh my gosh, why Am I Blanking on all of them? There's. Can I say the name of the last one? S H I T, actually. Anyway, the witches are coming. Shrill. Is it shrill? Oh my gosh, why am I Blanking? All these books that I've read, every single one of them. But anyhow, is, yeah, like very, very well known at this point for her feminist work of works of nonfiction. And this time she wrote a very deeply personal memoir that was about her. Well, she's doing a cross country road trip actually, from where she lives, that is, I think in Bainbridge island outside of Seattle to Florida. And as she's making this road trip, she is meditating on her relationship, on her marriage, which very famously, a few years ago in like a YouTube announcement, she announced that her partner, her husband of a long time, Aham, was and and her were now entering into a polyamorous relationship with a person that they introduced to the world, whose name is Roya. And so that was a thing they put out into the world. And so great, right? Like, cool. That's your absolute prerogative to do so. But this book reveals a lot about kind of the complexities that happened leading up to that decision to become polyamorous. And it sounds like a lot of it was rooted in her partner potentially kind of springing that on her, you know, in the midst of their marriage and doing it in a not what I would call entirely ethical way, like it sounds like may have been unfaithful to her. And then Sort of presented it to her as like, well, instead we can be poly and we're not here to litigate the, you know, anything about that because that's obviously deeply personal decision and like, her marriage is like her business. But what place it gets messy as Erica, you know, is that writer Sachi Cole, who you may recognize has written a couple of books. The most recent was called Sucker Punch and it's this really personal collection of essays about her own decision to essentially walk away from her marriage. So at the end of it, she talks about how she ends up leaving her now ex husband. The first book was called oh My Gosh, I'm blanking on the title. No one none of this Will Matter One Day We'll All Be Dead and None of this Will Matter, which was a collection of essays about growing up like the daughter of Indian immigrants and western culture. It talks about sexism and again, that experience. And I say all that for the contextual piece as she is a established and like respected writer in her own right.

[Erica]

Right.

[Vanessa Diaz]

So she wrote this piece in Slate about the book and it also interviewed Lindy west about the book, about the experience, and then wrote what I thought. And this is what I'm going to ask you. Have you read this piece, the Slate piece, Erica?

[Erica]

Yeah, I've read a good chunk of

[Vanessa Diaz]

it because it is. And in case, yeah, this is where I'll say it is in part behind a paywall, which is totally great. I just didn't realize that until I was like way deep into the piece. But it is by all accounts, like I thought, a very balanced take. And there is also a podcast that you can go listen to then that I have listened to in its entirety where she discusses how she approached talking about this book and this person the way she would just about anything gives all kinds of credit to Lindy west for like, how difficult it must have been to put this out there. That it might that, you know, being putting out such a deeply personal work as she's very familiar with can be a really scary thing to do on the Internet because folks are just going to form opinions about you from jump that they may or may not be generous about out. But also, you know, doesn't shy away from like the messier parts of the book, which to be fair, Lindy decided to put out into the world. Right. It's like, it's not a private document, it's a book that you can, it's available for purchase and about the kind of like, ways that she feels about the way that, aham, Kind of went about this process in introducing this partner to Lindy and, like, how they got into it. Do you want to talk a little bit about how this got super messy?

[Erica]

Well, so the piece was done by Cool, and then there was an email. Okay. Sent to Cool by Lindy's husband. And basically he was like. This was like kind of like a smear piece. You. You published this, you know, interview with the Gold to make me look bad. And the third, Roya was also similarly unimpressed with the profile. Leaning. I'm reading it straight from the article because I just thought that was a funny way to say it.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Similarly unimpressed.

[Erica]

Similarly unimpressed, yes.

[Vanessa Diaz]

She actually went so far as to, like, degrade that where it was written for.

[Erica]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, she wrote it for Slate, which, like, nobody even reads. And I'm obviously being catty here, but that just felt unique. Necessary.

[Erica]

Yeah. And I'm like, but you read it, didn't you? How do you like. Okay, but can I. So I. I learned about this through threads because I haven't been on Tik Tok lately and looking at, you know, book talk and things like that. I just go through my periods where, you know, different social media platforms get more my attention. Of course, threads has been my thing for a minute now. And. Can I just read to you? Lindy west is trending on threads because of this. Can I. I want to read Roxane Gay's response.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, I know exactly what it is. Please do. Please, grace the people.

[Erica]

So I'm going to read verbatim Roxane Gay's response from, like, five days ago. Whoo. I don't listen to podcasts much, but I just voluntary listen voluntarily listen to one for the first time ever, the episode of Icymi about Lindy West's new book. I was trying so hard to be open, but husbands just be out here doing embarrassing and ex and unacceptable things. Sometimes

[Vanessa Diaz]

that. I think it sums it up. Right. Like I said, we're not here to, like, actually litigate any of the actual goings on, because that's. That's. Again, this is a really deeply personal issue. And, like. And also, Lindy west has every right to write about it. Like, that's. There's no problem with all of that. But. But if you're going to put a book out in the world, and I feel this way about anything, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, it's like, there's going to be a response. There's very little you can do about that response. And just in general, I'M usually not an advocate for authors jumping into anything that even resembles like a review type space because that's not usually a good idea for anyone. Not that that's what this is exactly, because obviously it's a piece that's written for like a full article and not like a Goodreads review. But the part that really grates at me is that again, nothing from what I've seen in the post or in the podcast was like specifically derogatory. Like it is kind of just stating what happened. Like, it's very much like. And this is what happened obviously inserts some commentary based on like Scotchy Cool's own experience, but pardon me, Sachi Cool. But to like come at it. And apparently that's not it. Like there was that first email, I want to say there was also like a bevy of social posts that were also equally snarky and derogatory towards Cool in tone. And then at the end of that podcast, there's a little, a quick ad note at the end that there was one more follow up where they basically, I think reached out to them to clarify and them meaning the makers of the podcast. And then all that the husband wrote back a ham was like pre Palestine. And it seemed me waiting a couple different other platforms that it was. Yeah, that it was critical that it was unethical to criticize anything about Roya because she is, is I believe, Iranian. And you know, everything that's going on, the, the, the reach happening and these responses has been something to witness in a way that is just so, so messy. And frankly, when I saw it on, you know, happening in the world, I was like, oh, Erica and I are going to talk on a podcast this week about that.

[Erica]

I missed that part. That is so. Okay, well, here's the thing. It's like you're writing a memoir. It's deeply personal. But then you also release it into the world. And it's not like people went and interviewed your husband, like we're taught and like, you know, got some facts that you didn't talk about. We're talking about the stuff you told us about.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Erica]

So it's like I kind of wonder like how much of that, like I feel, I feel like it's free. Like you, you, you invited us in. Right. So we can talk about it now. And all of this just reeks of, of guilty conscience, which is their business, as you said. It's their business to sort out or not. But it just seems very, it seems at odds with what she wrote about in her Prior, you know. Yeah. Iteration as a. I didn't read her stuff before, like her articles. Were you familiar with her before her books?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, I mean, I'm hugely. Yeah, I've read all except for that last book. So like the. The last one was actually a. What I've heard. It's really good actually, but collection of essays that are specifically, I think, about film. So I haven't read that last one, but I've read all the rest of her stuff and deeply enjoyed it. Like, I. Again, she's this like feminist writer of a very specific not flavor. Because that makes it sound like I'm saying negatively. I don't. It's just. Yeah. Was. Was one of those feminist Jezebel era writers from like the aughts and. Or late aughts, I guess you could say. But that. Yeah, I think you can almost kind of picture for yourself what some of that might be. But you know, the. There's a really popular series starting, I think, Edie Bryant that got made from. From Shrill. I think it was from Shrill.

[Erica]

How do you know.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Hugely popular.

[Erica]

When you think of her writing from that. From that era? Because I didn't read her writing from that era. How do you feel that her writing from that era meshes with this latest messiness?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, I think that's part of what also feels a little bit jarring about it is that so much of her writing has been. Yeah. So clearly feminist in nature. And not to say that feminists don't encounter like, complex, you know, like we're all people, we're all sacks of flesh that like go through things and that is absolutely, you know, true and normal. And you can be a feminist and also go through experiences where like, you feel like maybe you didn't make the best decisions for yourself or the person treated you in a way that you wish you hadn't, especially from a feminist lens. So this is where some of this gets really complicated for me especially because again, it feels like ultimately if you really boil down that all of this ends up being like an attack on a woman of color who was just doing her. And by this I'm referring to Sachi Cool, you know, who wrote a piece that again, by. By all. All of my own estimations, just this very balanced approach to this thing. And now three different people are coming at her in, you know, emails and. Or social takedowns in a way that in and of itself doesn't feel particularly feminist. And. And to then frame her response as being like, well, this was anti feminist for you to talk Talk about my relationship. It's like, again, you invited us in. Yeah. And I thought she was actually giving a very empathetic response from a place of like, I know what it's like to put your relationship out into the world in a, you know, piece of. Of. Of writing and how hard that can be. This has got to be hard for you too. So, yeah, this is just a weird move that is not the same, but definitely feels in that flavor. Every time I see, like an author, you know, go after somebody on social media for leaving a review of their book that's even a little bit less than glowing, it's like, I just don't know the men. That's the move in any of these conversations. But especially when it becomes, you know, one of this flavor where there's like, character being attacked for ultimately just again, to commenting on pieces of information that you shared with everybody else.

[Erica]

And also not that. Yeah, yeah, all agreed. Also, like, I don't see any, like, all of the commentary on, you know, the Internet that apart from the three that are going after. Cool.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Erica]

Everyone is like, not on their side. I haven't seen any of this. So I'm like, read the room. Like, no one is agreeing with you. It's very obviously you're kind of digging yourself a hole. And it just, it just seems, I think, to everyone that, well, like, consider

[Vanessa Diaz]

her second book is called the Witches Are Coming. And it was written as a response to me too, which is, you know, not 100% the point of this conversation, but, like, is very much about, like, the concept of witch. Anyway, there's just. I think there are a lot of big feelings here and that is valid, but like, him. I think we may have missed the mark on this one.

[Erica]

Yeah, I think it's. Someone said, I saw someone say on Reddit or one of these things where I was reading about it because, you know, like, when you get into some real good, juicy mess, you read about it on different social platforms, of course, you know, well, different perspectives. Although Roxane Gay did give me life her one comment. But I think someone said, oh, this feels like 2015 Twitter drama. And I was like, it does.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, 100%. 100%. It does. Yes. And that again, is a lot of, I think what. When, When West's writing. Really.

[Erica]

Yes.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Came up, if I remember correctly. Yeah. It's been a long time since I read Shrill. So, yeah, again, I hope everybody involved gets feelings in check, but if you are wanting to get kind of a high level list of how that happened, there is the Slate article. And if you are not a member of Slate plus and you can also go listen to the podcast, I'll have links to both of those in the show. Notes that both give you some context for. Yeah, what it is, how we got here and all the things if YouTube like to be a part of the mess.

[Erica]

Yes, all the messy things.

[Vanessa Diaz]

So we only have a little bit of time left. So I'm going to do one like super fast mention and then we'll talk about our last piece here. So the super fast mention is just that Bridgerton Season 5 has already released an announcement trailer. I don't. I'd be really interested if they already have the season done. I don't think they do, but wow, that would be a huge departure from what they've been doing, which is releasing these things like every two years or what have you. But anyway, season five is going to feature Francesca and people are all in, in just a tizzy about the fact that this is going to be a sapphic season where the character that in the books was a man is in this case not just a woman, but a black woman. And people are showing their feelings about that. So go check out the announcement trailer. I'm definitely here to say that I am glad Shonda has forever been submersive from Jump with this series. It was never meant to be like a strictly, you know, one for one adaptation of Julia Quinn's book. So. And by the way, Julia Quinn has been on, as far as I can tell, like on board with all of the changes that she's made to make it a more inclusive and diverse representation of, you know, this era of romance. But yeah, if you have a feeling, go have a feeling. If you love you some Bridgerton and are excited, go watch the announcement trailer and get ready for season five.

[Erica]

I would also be on board if Shonda Rhymes came up to me and said she wanted to adapt. Be like, yeah, girl, what you need to change whatever you want.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I could secretly be super upset, which I wouldn't be because I love me some Shonda. But it was like, you want to do what with how many and how many dollars? Yeah, go with Gods.

[Erica]

My firstborn. No, I'm just kidding. But Shonda Rhymes, how do you.

[Vanessa Diaz]

How do you like Shonda? I'm rewatching Scandal. It's a great time. Anyway, last story, which is a pretty meaty one that we don't have tons of tons of time together get into, but that is, I think, really relevant to just so many conversations, is the shy girl Situation, as I've been calling it. There is a piece in the New York Times also by Alexandra Alter, who's the same person who wrote the story about Don DeLillo's hockey romance. The place the piece is titled AI is writing fiction. Publishers are unprepared and that is absolutely the kind of brass tacks of the thing. Are you familiar with kind of how this story unfolded?

[Erica]

Not super familiar. I know that like the itself. It's a self published book titled Shy Girl and there's a Borzoi on the COVID I love that.

[Vanessa Diaz]

You know what that is?

[Erica]

Yes. Oh, my mother used to show dogs.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Got it.

[Erica]

Yeah. Very random piece of Erica lore. Yeah, there's a Borzoi crying on the COVID It's just so dramatic and odd looking and like, like 80% of it was written by AI.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. 1. I will just quickly say that if you had shown me that cover and been like, what's this book about? I was never ever going to get to like. It's called a visceral revenge horror novel. It's about a woman who is held hostage by a dude she met online and that forces her to live as his pet. Which is like, I'm not saying that doesn't fit the description, but that cover, which I guess that was done on purpose. Right. But like that cover did not give. Give me that. But that's hardly the point. Yeah, the, the book, I guess some rumors started to kind of surface on I think social media, you know, like Goodreads or other places that this book might have been AI and so this gentleman named Max Spiro, who is the founder and chief executive of Pan. I actually don't know how you pronounce this. Pangram. Pangram. It's an AI detection program. Heard about these claims about this book again which is called Shy Girl, and ran it through the software and was like, yo, this is about 78% AI generated and you know, basically put this opinion on X in January and that just started a whole kerfuffle. And the Times also ended up taking the book and analyzed lots of passages through different detection tools, like not just the pentagram but others, and did find evidence of what they're saying are like recurring patterns that we see in AI generated technology texts from large language or from learned language models. Gaps in logic, as they say, excessive use of melodramatic adjectives and what they call the over reliance on the rule of three timeline wise.

[Erica]

I love the term gaps in knowledge. Yeah, that's so like perfectly shady.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Which will bring me to a Point I'll get to in a second here about that. But so the book was released, it was originally self published. It was released, released in Britain again. People are kind of like, whatever, but Hachette published it and had plans to release it under the Orbit imprint here in the US this spring. But because of all of these AI, you know, allegations, they have basically decided to discontinue the UK edition and that spring release here in the US has now been canceled. They have asked the author, whose name is Mia Ballard, like, yo, what's up? Who is a author who writes poetry and lives in Northern California, apparently doesn't have a huge social media presence and has said that she didn't write the book using AI, but that she had an acquaintance of hers, she hired an acquaintance to edit the book when it was in its self published version and that that person used AI technology for the edits. So that's the version that we are, you know, getting here.

[Erica]

So 80% of it needed to, needed to be edited.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Ms. Mia, question mark. This though is like a really big conversation, right? Because, and you should definitely go read this New York Times peaks because it gets into the meat of, of how, how and why this is a problem. Like so first there's the book itself, right? People feeling really duped by the idea that the thing that they're reading is not something that like an actual human wrote. There's the ethics of the fact that of course actual people's writing like feeds into these LLMs and like that's, you know, what have you. The piece that also gets interesting is just like, how do you get in front of this? You know, the piece points out that a lot of major publishers either have a policy in place that leaves a lot of room for interpretation and that there's tons of others that just either don't have a policy or it is even wider in its definition because they don't want to ban the use outright. It seems like publishers are having a weird time defining like what's okay for AI use. Like are you using it to write your notes, are you using it to draft an outline, or are you using it to literally write passages like, what's the difference? It is a big deal from the self publishing perspective. There's a statistic that's broken down in the piece that in 2024, 2.5 million self published books, you know, hit the hit the market. In 2025, that number jumped to 3.5 million. So a million book difference. And for context, in case you're like, well, what does that mean in, you know, real world, traditional publishing put out 642000 books in 2025 according to the new York Times. So like the, the number of pieces that are, you know, self published is, is huge. And a lot of, as the, you know, and New York Times calls like AI slop is on the market. And that's true. There's just a lot of stuff that is, you know, more obviously riddled with inconsistencies, especially non fiction books. Like there's a tons of like AI travel books that I've seen that have outdated. You know, there's literally like restaurants and landmarks named like don't exist anymore. Sort of something that stuff is easier to detect. But this problem of figuring out how to get in front of this is really weird and juicy and meaty and like confusing. Because one of the points that I've seen made, which is actually true is like, okay, so one of the things people are citing here is like, oh, this is how I knew it was AI is because of like I said, the gaps in logic and the fact that it's, you know, overwrought and like melodramatic. And I saw someone point out a thing that I know to be very true was that there are also very real human written books that also meet that same description. One thing I've notice. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[Erica]

Yeah, I'm sorry. One thing I've noticed like just in say social media post, because people are using AI to write social media posts too of course, is people will be like, oh, is this AI? I could tell this is AI because they use the ellipses. You use an EM dash and it's like I like EM dash.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Correct.

[Erica]

I love those. What do you mean?

[Vanessa Diaz]

I overly rely on them if I'm being honest. And that's fine.

[Erica]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

There's also the, you know, question that some people have said that like AI detection often results in error. Like, you know, I've seen several comments that are like, I have run my own, what I know to be very original writing through like an LLM and it told me 30% of it was, you know, AI generated when I know that it's not to be. There is a professor from Stony Brook University who is cited in this piece who says that, you know, according to him anyway, like the, the technology that they use, which I'm blanking on the name of, I don't know if it was Pangram or not, but has like a 1 in 10,000 false positive rates. So like they're saying yeah, it happens, but like not that often. But again, like that, that stickiness is what I meant to say when I called this juicy a few seconds ago is that like, because you're using real people's work, which is part of, you know, the uproar here of why people don't find this ethical, that because real people's work was used to teach these models, you're gonna inevitably run into that issue where like, yeah, it's all coming up as quote, unquote, AI detected because real people wrote it. So sometimes real people will write things that are not AI. And yet also there's the opposite problem of like, how are you actually going to be able to tell that something is AI generated other than just using people's, you know, honor system disclosures?

[Erica]

This is not gonna work.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like, yeah, and like we, you know, I can speak to not, not specific. Well, I mean, yeah, this is probably an issue that I do have to contend with that I just haven't had to as often. But like even in our space, which is, you know, not books, but just the editorial, you know, books coverage space, plagiarism, etc, things that we think about and that we will, you know, we've run pieces through software to make sure that we're staying on top of that stuff. And we ask people to always cite their sources. But like ultimately speaking, you know, is there did. Could somebody have, you know, written the introduction to their piece using, using chat GBT and not have me know about it? The only real way for me to know that is if that person's, you know, tone and style just like drastically changed overnight. But yeah, like, what is, what is the answer here other than for us, which we do, you know, is to tell people that like, hey, your work should be original. But like, what do you do if you're a publishing house? Like, are you supposed to do fact checks the way you do for works of nonfiction? Is it just going to continue to be the honor system? Is it? Are we trusting? Yeah, like this is a, like the thesis of this piece. I just, I resonate with so hard, which is just that like we are unprepared for what we are.

[Erica]

In conclusion, we are unprepared. I'm like, I feel like they should do they. I feel like they should start doing the, the AI checks. Like they do fact checks for nonfiction.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Erica]

And I wonder too, you mentioned the boom in self published books in 2025 compared to 2024. And I wonder, with this flooding of supposedly allegedly, you know, AI assisted writing, how are consumers Responding to it. Like, do people actually like reading AI written works? Because I know, like, our audience is probably most like, like most likely to be against AI, at least from a. An ethical perspective. But outside of people who really follow who. Outside of people who really follow, like the goings on in the book world who are just like casual readers, I wonder, would they, would they like that? Would they actually like the writing of AI assisted books or.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Well, that's. Yeah, great question because downgrade the overall

[Erica]

quality and then people will turn away from books. I know. Was it last year that. That Americans read like the least amount of books ever or something like that?

[Vanessa Diaz]

It might have been last year. So yeah, that actually brings up another piece that's, you know, talked about in the article is that this book got a blurb once. It was, you know, converted from self pub to trad pub from author Olive Lee Blake. Like, so an author that people love, right? And her blurb praised this book and then basically afterwards was like, oh, shoot. Like I, I know it's come to my attention that this may have been AI generated and like, that has no place in art. But, you know, says in the statement that like, she took it in good faith that the story was authored by a human and she thought it was like, really fun and inventive and, you know, horrifying because obviously that's the premise of the book. I also did not know that Megan Ballard is a black woman. And so Olivy Blake, you know, also called attention to like, hey, I also just want to say that this is a black female author. And so I don't want to leap into any conclusions about, you know, her particularly vulnerable position in publishing, which is a fair point. But. But my. To answer your question is like, again, taste is so subjective. So like, I, you know, can name at the top of my head five or six books that like, I have friends of mine that like, absolutely love that like, I consider the writing to be bad or I didn't like the story, but it doesn't matter because that book is great to that person and not to me. And so to answer the question of like, do people enjoy the AI writing? It's like, well, maybe because everybody's taste is so different that it's only gonna. Yeah. Like, if you start to just notice, as the New York Times piece points out, out that there's like a couple different places where like literally the same, not metaphor, but like phrase usage, where something is described as cold and unyielding. And then a few paragraphs later, it's like something is described as sharp and unyielding. Like, maybe you're the kind of person who pays attention to writing and tone and cadence, and you're going to pick up on stuff like that. But I do think there's a lot of people who won't pick up on stuff like that because they're just, you know, casual readers or they like a little bit of melodrama or what have you. Like. No, you know, I'm not yucking anyone's yum. Yeah. But this is why this problem, I think, is so sticky, because there is not, like, I don't think, a perfectly universal way, especially when you have. Have, you know, people accusing you for using AI when you're using an EM dash. The flip side, of course, is, no, I don't want to read a book that I later found out was, you know, generated 78 through AI, which is, you know, taking other people's work to inform that technology. No, I don't like that. But, like, am I gonna catch it? I don't know. And I'm a freaking, you know, editor of a book media company. So.

[Erica]

Yeah, I also, for a split second. For a split second, and I looked up the author and I was like, is she AI?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, I wasn't sure either. I was like. Because I. I didn't know who this person was at all. And I don't know. Like, I. So.

[Erica]

Because what I've noticed is that as soon as they got. As soon as AI was doing, like, you know, somewhat realistic, because there's always like, some extra fingers or thumbs or whatever, you know.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Erica]

As soon as they were doing, like, mostly realistic videos, there was this thing what, like, a lot of people were talking about again on, you know, in the Internet world, social media, whatever, how they were doing a lot of videos of, like, black women specifically.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Erica]

It was so odd. It was like digital blackface. So when I looked her up, I

[Vanessa Diaz]

was like, a whole other problem.

[Erica]

Yeah, a whole other problem. But the publishing world, I feel like sometimes is. Is, like, oddly antiquated in a way, just with many things. And it's like this AI stuff, like, just even the seasons, you know, how they do seasons, how they have been trying to become more diverse and just resisting that for years and years, like, you know, making gainway and then kind of going back. Yeah. But, yeah, thank you for the word. That's what I was searching for. So I don't know with this, they need to, like, hop to it, because AI, yeah. Is ever learning, and, I mean, we need more protections Yeah, I feel like there should be a label where something is AI produced because some people, People, as we were saying, some people might not care.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like they don't know. And that's the other half of it is there are a lot of people who don't. And that's just the. Yeah. The ethics of like, figuring out is. Yeah, publishing is often very reactive versus proactive. Sometimes you can't be proactive. There's some things that you don't know. But like, the AI conversation has been happening for quite some time. Like a lot of things to do with publishing. Like, you know, it seems like, yeah, the machine does not move anywhere near as quickly as it should. This is going to just continue to get. I think, you know, as Rebecca always says, like the. But putting AI, like making it go away is essentially like trying to put toothpaste back in a tube. I've come to that, you know, realization. I get it. AI is here to stay, I think, and has been actually in use in a lot more ways than maybe some people realize for a really long time with stuff like, you know, telephone automations and what have you. And so there's, there's ways that I acknowledge that it can be useful for, you know, I always say that, like, assistive versus generative thing. But even that is a whole separate conversation. All I know is that this problem is sticky and yeah, somebody needs. Is going to have to continue to. Lots of people are going to have to continue to contend with this problem, I think in the, you know, months, days, years, etc.

[Erica]

To succumb, hopefully, quickly. Can I just add that. I was just thinking, as we're speaking, I'm thinking, like, would I be able to detect AI writing? Because I'm. I'm finicky about writing quality anyway, just as a lover of writing and, you know, reading and books and everything. And like, there are plenty of. Of, you know, no shade. There are plenty of real people's writing who I know I don't care for. But like, it just. I'm just thinking of one time we had a meeting and Clint had asked Chat GBT or something to write in my voice. Do you remember?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, yeah.

[Erica]

And it was.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, we had somebody on a call, you know, somebody on staff. Basically was like, trying to. Yeah. Figure out how that might work. Interesting.

[Erica]

And then the writing was like, oh, honey, let me tell you. Yes, we'll.

[Vanessa Diaz]

We'll just bypass that.

[Erica]

I thought it was so funny. It was funny to me. But I was like, I've never said that it was great.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Though.

[Erica]

But great in a. In a. In a funny way. But yeah, it. But again, AI is rapidly improving, so they gotta. They gotta do something lest they get sued and who knows the future of legality when it comes to AI?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, well, someone's gonna deal with that. How Remains to be seen.

[Erica]

Right?

[Vanessa Diaz]

We have chatted long enough, so we're going to speed through this next section here, but I didn't want to let you go without doing a little quick we call front list foyer. We talk about some of the newer books that we've been reading. I want to make sure we thank Thrift Books for sponsoring this section. They have millions, and I do mean millions of new and used titles. This, this endless selection of not just books though, like video, music, gifts, games. And they have all of it at really competitive, just like the best prices to fill your library and your imagination. Childhood classics, new and undiscovered world of adventures. There's. There's something for everybody and for every budget. And with the Thrift Books reading rewards program, which if you didn't know about, you should definitely look into every purchase you make gets you closer to free books, books to rewards. So read more and spend [e-mail] Again, they've got over 19 million titles for you to browse, so there's plenty to discover in addition to used books, DVD, Blu Ray, all the things. Again, that's thriftbooks.com you get free US shipping on book orders of 15 and the books get delivered right to your door. You can visit www.thriftbooks.com BRpodcast for a running list of titles discussed on the show. So really quickly speed rounds as we don't have a lot of time. I'm just going to tell the people that a couple of the books I have been obsessed with lately I just read the beheading. I'm almost done with, I should say the beheading game, which is so. It's just. It was like tailor written for me. It's like, what if Anne Boleyn survived her beheading and then was out for vengeance and also maybe made a friend of a female variety in the way that might be more than a friend. And it's. It just legit opens with her waking up in a coffin and being like, do I have no head? And like kind of going about. And there's not like a fantastical reason explained for how this happened. It just did. And I cannot tell you how into that I am. It's. It's just been a lot of fun. So that's one of the books on my list as of now. Do you have anything that you've been reading that you've been really into lately?

[Erica]

I've read. I've been reading older stuff. Stuff. So I'm going to mention a couple hopeful reads. One is titled Psychopomp and Circumstance. Actually got it during the bookshop.org Black History Month sale. Shout out to bookshop.org It's a Southern Gothic fantasy set during the Reconstruction era. It follows this one young black woman, Fee, who has volunteered to be the pomp for her aunt who her mother was beefing with. So her mom's, like, not cool. I don't, you know, not feeling this. But the pomp, I never knew what that was. That's someone who, like, does the funeral arrangements and stuff in mythology. Psychopomp is someone who, like, you know, guides souls to the afterlife or something like that. So I was like, oh, okay, I learned something. So she goes to her Aunt Cleo. Oh, Cleo. Not confused. And everything's connected. So she goes to her Aunt Cleo's house and she sees that something's amiss. There's like, you know, something's beckoning to her. There's magic in the walls. Just some creepy stuff. And then there are the secrets, girl. The secrets. So this is a very short book. I just barely started it, but I'm super excited to read it because. Finish it rather, because I don't really read to the. Too many books set in this era, so. Very interesting.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, I love that. Well, those are some good ones. I'm going to give one last quick shout out because I've only just barely started it, but. Black Out Loud, the Revolutionary History. Revolutionary History of Black Comedy from Vaudeville to 90s Sitcoms by Jeff Bennett. Doing it on audio. Any book that you tell me is going to get into. Yeah, this. This rich history that covers everything from like, Martin and the Fresh Prince to, like, Living Single is. Is like. I rewatch Living Single like every year. I just love that show so much. Anyway, this book promises to be fantastic and I love a pop culture anything, so I can't wait to finish this one. But it's been a great start so far. That's Black Out Loud by Jeff Bennett.

[Erica]

That is a good one. My last one, Aisha, by Soraya Buazawi. And this is basically like Moroccan resistance against the Portuguese. There's this magical girl. She's like, like the daughter of Rev, you know, like fighters, rebellion fighters. And she has rage, honey, like female rage. Like, you know, she's seen her people get killed, starve, all those things at the hands of colonizers, and she kind of needs someone to like, hold her, but, like, hold me back, like hold her back. And her lover does that. He's also a freedom fighter. But it gets to a point. It gets to a point and like when the crash out comes, there's like something kind of living beneath her skin, like an entity that is trying to get out.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Literally.

[Erica]

You see what I'm saying? So, you know, it's gonna be, I think it's gonna be a bloodbath in the end, but like, you know the type that's cathartic, I guess. I hope that didn't make me sound.

[Vanessa Diaz]

If we still did episode titles, it would have been like a cathartic bloodbath. But we no longer do that. Let's not.

[Erica]

Anyway, I hope that didn't make me sound unhinged. I'm friendly, I promise. I promise. That's Aisha by Soraya Bulazawi oh, that was perfect.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Well, thank you so much, Erica. We absolutely went long and chatty like we knew we would. But that's okay. We had a lot to say and we covered a lot of, I think, really interesting topics that we hope people enjoyed. I'll have a list of the titles that we mentioned today, actually. Well, maybe they'll. They'll be over at Thrift Books, actually, so that's where you should go check them out. Just a reminder that the Book Riot Podcast is a proud member of the Airwave Network. Thank you so much for listening. Jeff and Rebecca will be back very soon. If you haven't yet listened to it, Rebecca and I did a cool retrospective on the project Hail Mary movie. We went to watch it and shared our thoughts. So that is also in the feed now if you haven't yet listened to it. But again, your regular hosts will be back very soon. Thank you so much for listening. Too. Good and Coffee creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold or frothy, two good coffee creamers make every sip a good one. Two good coffee creamers, Real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle.