The Latest Research on Gen Z's Reading Habits

Summary

Book Riot – The Podcast

Episode: The Latest Research on Gen Z's Reading Habits
Hosts: Jeff O’Neal & Rebecca Schinsky
Date: July 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode finds Jeff and Rebecca diving into the ongoing phenomenon around Christopher Nolan’s Odyssey adaptation, discussing how the film has revitalized interest in Homer’s epic and its modern translations. They examine the publishing industry’s response (or lack thereof) to this monocultural moment and explore the missed opportunities—especially in audiobooks and special editions. The episode spirals out into broader conversations about the nature of adaptation, the legacy of popular books, how AI and slop content are infiltrating book spaces, the nature of reading slumps, and what’s catching both hosts’ attention across adaptations and new book projects.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Monocultural Moment: Nolan’s Odyssey & Its Ripple Effects

• The hosts celebrate the rare monoculture created by Christopher Nolan’s Odyssey adaptation and its cultural ripple effects (“Monoculture is good, actually.” — Rebecca, 02:36). They note both the widespread acclaim and inevitable nitpicking over historical authenticity.

• Industry Impact: Two translations of The Odyssey (Emily Wilson and Robert Fagles) are in Amazon’s Top 10, demonstrating a film’s power to drive book sales. Wilson’s translation, especially, is highlighted as promising and accessible (03:22–03:36).

  “If she [Emily Wilson] can topple Theo of Golden, it will be the highlight of my year.” – Rebecca, 02:36

• Audiobook Missed Opportunity: Jeff laments that a full-cast audiobook featuring the actors from Nolan’s film wasn’t produced in time to ride this wave. Both hosts break down why this was a huge missed opportunity for publishers, especially Norton, and muse about the long-tail value of a definitive audio edition (04:45–06:25).

  "Having the premier Odyssey audiobook in your catalog as Norton... that’s a decades long investment.” – Jeff, 05:38

• Speculation & Industry Response: Rebecca notes Penguin Random House did manage to get a new illustrated Fagles hardcover out, but with little marketing muscle. They discuss why Emily Wilson’s translation triumphed—likely a mix of Google search behavior and genuine accessibility.

2. Adaptations: Trends, History, & Standouts

• Jeff and Rebecca reflect on Book Riot’s recent list, “Best Adaptations of the Century So Far,” and the way adaptations mark eras—how movies from the early 2000s feel much older than their book counterparts (19:02).

• They trade favorites (Bridget Jones’s Diary, American Fiction, Gone Girl, Station Eleven, Watchmen, Mean Girls, Little Women), noting the breadth of genres that have received stand-out adaptations (19:02–24:18).

  “Some of these books were certainly in the data sets for LLM models…” – Jeff, 24:42

• The Watchmen HBO series is given special mention for its depth and innovation (23:31–24:18).

3. AI, Publishing, and the ‘Slop’ Problem

• The hosts dive into ‘AI slop’—in particular, the proliferation of AI-generated biographies and study guides on Amazon and even AI-narrated public domain audiobooks hitting podcast charts (26:26–33:41).

• Fakes & Grift: Rebecca relays the story of journalist Kashmir Hill finding an AI-generated “biography” of herself for sale—a phenomenon now affecting anyone with a public name (27:53–31:04).

• Both hosts agree: the onus is on Amazon and other platforms to respond, but so far, the self-publishing “open gate” structure makes AI junk hard to root out.

• Advice to Listeners: Always check for legitimate publisher names, especially when shopping for classics.

• Audiobook/AI Moment: AI-generated audiobooks are flooding platforms like Apple Podcasts, sometimes making it into the Top 10 due to search traffic alone, though listener ratings are abysmal (33:41–34:16).

  “We need to keep the gates, Rebecca. What have we done to the gates? This is horrible.” – Jeff, 33:41

• Human vs. Machine: Both are not anti-AI but note that as of now, human creativity—especially in prose and innovative verbs—cannot be matched by AI (35:53–38:33).

  “You can feel the creativity behind it. And I want that. And... AI could never.” – Rebecca, 37:59

4. Adaptation News & Book Industry Releases

• Taylor Jenkins Reid: New novel The Last Days of Vic and Coco (set in the 1970s, featuring lady pool hustlers) coming March—Jeff and Rebecca discuss the significance of cigarettes on book covers as literary signifiers (39:59–42:14).
• Adaptations Fast-tracked: Apple TV+ adapting Rebecca Yarros’s next novel, Sony fast-tracking The Silent Patient adaptation. Discussion of why these projects are attracting streaming money (46:59–49:30).

5. Legacy, Literary Fads, and the Test of Time

• The hosts review a list of most-requested library books from 50 years ago, reflecting on how quickly even bestsellers fade from memory and what truly lasts (50:28–55:36).

• They contrast this with notable 1976 releases on Goodreads (Interview with the Vampire, Roots, etc.), reinforcing their point that cultural memory is unpredictable.

  “Just remember that most of us won’t have any [literary legacy].” – Rebecca, 50:53

6. Currently Reading & Recommendations

• Rebecca:
  • Art Curious by Jennifer Dasal (2020): A book of “unexpected, slightly odd, and fascinating stories about art history,” perfect for dipping in and out, and great on audio (56:38–60:11).
• Jeff:
  • Our Knives Will Save Us by White Mountain Apache Chef (addiction memoir, foodways).
  • Unsayable by Michael Cunningham (memoir/writing manual): Interwoven reflections on writing, reading, craft, and personal literary epiphanies. Jeff was so impressed he switched to reading the print version for deeper engagement (62:57–63:32).

7. Reading Slumps & Life Balance

• The hosts candidly discuss reading slumps and how family, seasons, and “replacement value” activities shape their reading habits. They reassure listeners: reading slumps are natural and cyclical, particularly as life’s priorities shift (63:38–67:11).

  “For everything there is a season… Value over replacement activity is kind of, it has to beat a couple of interesting things for me right now, which is good.” – Jeff, 65:10

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Having the premier Odyssey audiobook in your catalog as Norton... that’s a decades long investment.” – Jeff, 05:38
• “If she [Emily Wilson] can topple Theo of Golden, it will be the highlight of my year.” – Rebecca, 02:36
• “You can feel the creativity behind it. And I want that. And... AI could never.” – Rebecca, 37:59
• “We need to keep the gates, Rebecca. What have we done to the gates? This is horrible.” – Jeff, 33:41
• “Just remember that most of us won’t have any [literary legacy].” – Rebecca, 50:53

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Important Timestamps

• 02:36 – Monoculture & The Odyssey’s Cultural Moment
• 04:45 – Full-Cast Audiobook Missed Opportunity
• 13:56 – Netflix & Adaptations: Synergy Discussion
• 19:02 – Best Adaptations of the Century So Far
• 26:26 – AI & “Slop” in Book Publishing
• 33:41 – AI-Generated Audiobooks & Discovery Risks
• 37:59 – Human vs. AI Creativity in Prose
• 39:59 – Taylor Jenkins Reid’s New Novel
• 46:59 – Yarros & Sony Adaptation News
• 50:28 – Legacy & the Fate of Bestsellers
• 56:38 – Art Curious & Current Reads
• 63:38 – Reading Slumps & Life Balance

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Conclusion

This episode offers a wide-ranging, witty, and incisive look into the intersections of adaptation, publishing economics, the emergent challenges of AI, and how moments of monoculture still surprise in an ever-fragmented literary landscape. Jeff and Rebecca’s banter, personal anecdotes, and shared love of both old and new books make this a rich listen for anyone wanting to keep up with the shifting sands of book culture.

Transcript

[Jeff O'Neill]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is the Book Riot Podcast. I am Jeff o'. Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I think the collective literary Internet like us just basking in the Odyssean afterglow.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Man, it's good. It feels so good.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's so good. I'm so thrilled to see it do well to people be talking about it in, I'd say largely positive, interesting ways, save for the unmodel minority of people grinching about historical accuracy. Did you see Elon Musk is going to say Grok Imagine is going to make a historically accurate movie. Rebecca, when I say to you I

[Rebecca Schinsky]

hope she spends a billion dollars and

[Jeff O'Neill]

I hope it's terrible.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Of course it'll be terrible. Like one of the things that makes Christopher Nolan's Odyssey so compelling is how handmade it is and that it's actual people. It's not made by AI. There is very little cgi. I just last night watched a little. There's a mini documentary on peacock. It's like 20 minutes long about the making of the Odyssey and they like follow them around the sets and each of the actors talks about what their experience was like. And they have people who did production design and special effects and really all the practical effects talking about it. And I just don't think it's coincidental that, you know, the kids are rejecting AI and the movie that is made by hand looks great. Elon Musk can spend all his money generating a Grok Imagine movie.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But yeah, yeah, I look forward to Telemachus slaughtering 12 women at the end of his. I look forward to the sexual.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's a lot of rape in the Odyssey.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I look forward to be an ancient performed only in Greek, you know, there will be no subtitles. I mean, I. It sounds great. It sounds like it's going to be a wonderful time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And to a lot of the people being brown and people losing their minds over it, right?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, that's really something. So may your efforts fail. Grok imagine and whatever this is going

[Rebecca Schinsky]

to be but man otherwise like what a good time this is. Monoculture is good actually. There are two translations of the Odyssey in Amazon's top 10 best selling books right now. Number one is still Theo of Golden, but right behind Theo of Golden is Emily Wilson, our girl. If she can topple Theo of Golden it will be the highlight of my year. She's ahead of the new Rebecca Garros, the short story collection that we talked about last week that's shooting up in pre orders. And then the faggles translation of the Odyssey is at number 10. Two editions of the Odyssey in the top 10 best selling books. That movie is moving units. I hope people actually go home and read it and have a great time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

2 thoughts for you on Theof golden and that one is anecdota. I did my monthly fire up of my personal Facebook to see what my family was up to and the the my family is not posting a lot on the the Meta platform these days, so I'm not surprised. So it's got to populate it with stuff I might be interested. And one of the things it the algo popped up for me on Facebook was a post by a priest about how much he liked Theo of Golden. So some confirmation bias in my one of our theories about the popularity of Theo Golden. I thought I would relay that. Secondly, I wrote in the flagship newsletter that went out today the people yearn for monoculture in a mini rant about how is there no full cast audio of the Odyssey with this cast? They're in God knows how many places famously no phones allowed on sets. They've got 30 minutes for Zendaya or Hathaway or Leguizamo or Lupita to do their few lines. Have someone come in over the top and narrate the whole thing. You know, get get. Yes, this is not hard, Rebecca. Why did we not do this? Would Norton not release the rights of the Emily Wilson? I've got all kinds of questions. Secondly, is Norton kicking themselves or did they lay in the tall weeds like a snake to not have like a special like $40 edition of this ready to go?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, that's a great question. I mean on the audio side, Claire Danes narrates the Emily Wilson translation already. So like they splashed out some cash there. I would guess based on what somebody told me about another celebrity narration. It was mid to upper five figures. Truly just a guess based on a little data from a birdie. But you're selling so many copies of this thing. It would have been amazing to have whatever the Odyssey version of, like, you know, the red letter diary or not diaries, the red letter bibles where just Jesus's words are in red letters.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

If you, if you're doing just the parts where characters are actually speaking, you have the actors, or even if you can't get Zendaya and Tom Holland or whatever, get a full cast of audiobook narrators.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Exactly. Right. Yes, yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And then have one narrative voice for all of the, the exposition that happens.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, let them, let them, you know, let Universal and Nolan or whatever wet their beak. Like, I think there's something to be said here, but I think the box office receipts of the Odyssey in seven, ten weeks will die down. You know, there'll be video and on demand, but the Odyssey is forever. And having the premier Odyssey audiobook in your catalog as Norton or whatever the thing that's a decades long investment. And no one's going to re. No in, in 20 years, no one's gonna be like, we should do another Odyssey audiobook. Like that will much like, you know, I think this is just a longer term investment. If they pay 500 grand for all the actors, or maybe you get Damon and Hathaway and you can't get the rest. Like get a few of them in the mix so you can market it that way. I think you, you do extremely well over time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, who knows why they didn't do that. Maybe they were just really not sure, like it. It was the movie going to be good. And even if it was good, would people actually go buy Copies of a 3000 year old poem that's widely available in the public domain? It's a big question mark. I understand maybe why they didn't take the gamble, but the upside would have been huge. And now it's too late. Like, this is the moment where the iron is hot. It's never gonna be hotter than it is right now in our lifetimes. It's just almost impossible to imagine a better moment for the Odyssey. How successful the movie has been. And that Nolan has figured out all this stuff made me wonder, like, will he run it back and do the Iliad?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I had the same thought. I mean, that's you and me, I think. Fan ficing. Fandoming. I don't think so, though he did the third. He did three Batman movies.

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[Jeff O'Neill]

Foreign it's not inconceivable. It is strange from a average viewer point of view to then go to do a prequel essentially I would think. But the events are so different. I do think a lot of the reasons that most regular readers favorite between the Odyssey and the Iliad are the same reason. It makes for a more interesting visual experience. You're spending a lot of time on the beach in the Iliad, Rebecca. Like I don't. There's not, there's not a Cyclops. Like it's a lot of swords.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Maybe you do the Aeneas.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like yeah, even that there's something uniquely sea going multiple locations. I would love to see it. But I think a lot of things that makes the Odyssey different than those things are the very reason he he made this. And I'm just not sure. So I don't want to throw cold Mediterranean seawater on it. I would love to do it, but I, I don't know, maybe somebody, maybe this gets another studio to do the Iliad or maybe there's some other director that might be fascinating. But I just don't see it having the same enticements for a filmmaker as as the Odyssey.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Really. Yeah. And I think maybe like what I'm really wanting there is not so much another trip to this world. Like it was great, but to see publishers plan to capitalize on it in advance. There were other gorgeous editions of the Odyssey that came out. Penguin Random House did a new hardcover illustrated edition of the Fagles translation that came out early summer they were ready. I didn't see a of marketing for it. Like a copy landed in my mailbox so I knew that it was there but I haven't seen it around. Whoever has been doing the PR for the Emily Wilson is doing a great job. Like however it has happened that that has ended up being the translation that more people are going to terrific. And I would guess it has to do with Google. Like people are finding they're going online and looking for best translation or easiest translation would be my guess about it that people do want an accessible reading experience and hers is is the most straightforward. Maybe Nolan name checking her helps a little bit but I don't. I don't know how much adjacent media people are consuming about the Odyssey getting into like which translation did he use or are you just going down to Barnes and Noble and it's the newest translation so it's the one they're stalking.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I don't know and it I though Nolan has acknowledged that that was his kind of working copy. It doesn't neatly make a sticker like sort of sort of the inspiration for the Nolan read this like could you do the Nolan read this sticker like I don't know really what you're well

[Rebecca Schinsky]

like Wilson as she told us when she was on zero to well read she does not have a writing credit. He Christopher Nolan functionally translates it himself or writes his own prose version of the story in addition to layering on his own pieces of it. But I just really wonder how many dollars Norton could have made with it. Like I would have bought one a gorgeous hardcover.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right. With some supplementary materials. You do the thing, you make that the de facto standard. Which is redundant actually to say but. But again I'm sure they're not sad to see the ducats flow in because they're going to see them. For those of you who don't know, I think we'd maybe talked about this on the Odyssey episodes here where the underlying text of course is out of copy, laughably out of copyright but a translation is copyrightable so it's protected ip. That's another reason that a really full featured full cast audiobook experience has a value add is because that's copyrightable. Now someone could do a full cast. I wouldn't be surprised if someone right now is looking at the Lattimore translation. Maybe Norton is working on something right now. Maybe they're working out to anticipate I think if there was going to be another chance around a special edition or a publicity moment for a full Cast. It could be around the Oscars. Maybe they can saddle up. You can do an audiobook faster than you can get a full beautiful whatever edition going. That's a few people in a room and some mics. But that would be something I'd very much consider. And the inciting instance for me was it doesn't really rise to the level. Something we'd cover on its own. But that Audible has commissioned a full cast Dracula with Jonathan Bailey in the lead and what's her name from their White Lotus, Maggie Gyllenhaal as Van Helsing, which I think is fun casting there. The dollars are there. Rebecca. Like Audible. Could they go with Norton? Like Audible is trying to defend platforms. That's another reason that Spotify and Audible have their own fancy celebrity full cast. Some of it I think is the individual titles, but you can only get it on our platform is the bigger play. And just imagine if Audible or Spotify or Libro FM or anybody. We are the exclusive home of the full cast audio of the Odyssey. Whether it's not the same cast, maybe there's some version of it, but I just think it's a huge missed opportunity. A Spotify. Right now they're trying to grow their user base, let people know that we have audiobooks. What a splash that would make for all the zoomers that are going to their first packed movie theater experience to come home, fire up the Odyssey and like get used to listening to audiobooks right there. I think it's a huge missed opportunity. And the success of the Wilson sales and the success of the movie for that maybe, you know, success can sometimes hide problems. I think the opportunity cost doesn't show up on a P and L and that's one place it really isn't.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So, yeah, would have been great to see it happen. We don't get moments like this and, you know, like there were. There were new editions of Wuthering Heights earlier this year. There are going to be new editions of Pride and Prejudice and Sensibility later this year. Maybe east of Eden. I haven't seen one. But there are like. There are more big adaptations to come. Some of those have already received updated full cast audiobooks, but there will be gorgeous collectible hardcovers for all the kids who want to put them on TikTok. And a full cast audio experience like this is when you have a film coming out or a TV series that you think is going to do well. That is the moment. It's kind of interesting that Netflix hasn't tried to partner with somebody about audiobooks because they do have the book hub and they've got Virgin River. They've got all the Jenny Han, you know, to all the boys I've loved before, so many things. They've got the east of Eden coming out. They've got Pride and Prejudice. Like they could produce full cast audio or tie themselves to somebody who is and connect it to the releases of those shows as well. Yeah, Synergy, baby.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I said in my note, I said, are you listening, Greta Gerwig? Just hear me out. Just hear, just acknowledge. Mark is red that one for you. At the same time, did you want to say anything about Emily Wilson's comments on the Odyssey? There's been. Mary Beard's gotten in the role some other. Here's what 12 scholars think about the Odyssey. Everyone's looking for an angle. You put the link here, Rebecca. Anything you wanted to say here?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's just kind of fun to see them all out there. I know Emily Wilson has commented that she thought this stuff about Argus the dog was a little excessive in the film. The AP interviewed her and Daniel Mendelsohn and they talked about, you know, feeling like maybe trying to pack in everything while also making it distinctly a Christopher Nolan movie costs some things in terms of the story. But also you're a scholar whose money is made on faithful translations of the book. Nobody's been a real Debbie Downer. That was nice to see. And Wilson has been really clear that she doesn't have any interest in like gatekeeping it or being precious about deviations from the source text. But, you know, she's a little concerned maybe about how the gods are portrayed in Nolan's and that it might not be totally legible to a casual viewer. I think it's all fair, fair stuff. But for the most part, the scholars seem on board and they should be. They're moving units.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I mean, if you're not, I think, like me, I mean, I'm no scholar of it, but you and I spent some time thinking about it and talking about it. We see the differences, acknowledge the trade offs as being trade offs. Like something is lost and something is added and that just enters the dialogue that has kept this thing in circulation, you know, since. Since no one had gone past the Pillars of Hercules. I think it's okay. And like I said, like, you and I have largely been adaptation, promiscuous. Like make the thing. The original text does not get harmed. It does not get updated unless someone's going to go, you know, do some things. Like they've done some text on Their own volition of Boulderize them or something else. But otherwise, this is a version. It keeps the thing in circulation. If anything, a little discussion about what was traded off gets people to go back to the text, or at least think about the text and hear the messaging about how it is. I think it is an impossible thing to do faithfully and well and commercially viable and interesting to a modern reader without a whole bunch of secondary. So, you know, I think that's cool. I was. I looked at an interview. I just see it or read it. My algorithm is all Odyssey all the time right now. And so far, my 10 minutes a day I spend on it. But Nolan, talking about how, you know, the last couple of books, which is the end past the. The killing of the suitors, there's a little bit of scholarly. I'm not sure if this is Homer, which then allowed him a little freedom, even intellectually, to be like, okay, well, maybe if there's a door to be opened, that's the door. And acknowledging that. And he was asked, like, if you could ask Homer one question, what would it be? He's like, well, the thing is, we're not sure if there is a Homer, he or she or how many. So sort of my first question would be something like, do you exist? Which I was like, that's a very cool answer to get there. So we'll continue to see. I think probably the ongoing box office will be interesting in terms of actual content of the film. We probably hit peak secondary Odyssey content at this point. And at some point it will surely join in 25 years, when we come back to do our next edition of the best adaptations of the century so far, the Odyssey will surely be among it. We're just noting here that book, right. We put up our list of the best adaptations of the century so far, broken down by genre. It's not rank ordered, so it's just alphabetized. I just. People go, go take a look at it. We've got comics, we've got romance, we've got horror. All the things I think more than. More than books. Rebecca, a 2001 movie feels a lot older than a 2001 book to me when I look at this list.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I got to write up several of my faves, my nominations for this, and Bridget Jones's Diary is one of them. And thinking about movies like that from the early 2000s was really interesting. Just like how movies are made. What everything looks like on screen is different. And of course, the types of stories that we're telling are different than they were 25 years ago now. But I also got to talk about Erasure based on Percival Everett's or American fiction based on Erasure by Percival Everett. I did the write up for Gone Girl which was fortuitous timing because we were recording a zero to well read about Gone Girl around the same time. It was fresh for me. Also got to write about Station 11. I managed not to cry while thinking about the Hamlet scene. But it was close. Lots of good stuff. Couple adaptations of Pride and Prejudice made it in Mean Girls, which I'm always delighted to remember was an adaptation. Makes it in say Nothing by Patrick Rattan. Keith Slow Horses. There's just so much good stuff here. And if you're in a TV a momentary TV desert like we are finding ourselves in my house without a whole lot to watch in the middle of the summer. There's a lot of great options on this list.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Did you ever catch the say Nothing show? Did we talk about.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Did you watch it?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I watched it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's an excellent one. Vanessa wrote that up. Slow Horses have some comics along the same line. Sharifa wrote about adaptation which is what that was. One of the that was on my short list of things have been very the one that caught me is Brokeback Mountain, which I can't believe that movie's 21 years old. I'm not sure that movie gets made today.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh yeah. I mean the way that we handle representation in media is really different. It might be made today but maybe it would be made with two gay actors.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's made differently. But I don't know that that particular story which is. Spoiler alert. A tragedy. You know a doom love story. It's beautiful and moving and has a wonderful score and the angley filmmaking is terrific. And I think both Ledger. Ledger is especially good. Good. But Gyllenhaal's especially good and delivered one of the lines. I wish I knew how to quit you of the 25th century in movies so far. I thought crazy rich Asians. Also one that holds up for me. You wrote about Little Women. I think that's probably my favorite. That's the one I've seen the most. Yeah. We had occasion to think about Gone Girl recently. I realized I still haven't seen Hamnet the film. I don't know if I can bring myself to sit alone in our room and watch. I don't think Michelle's gonna be up for that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is a dicey proposition.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Tough. Tough B for me. I believe it's good. But I don't know that I need to see it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I, you know, I think that's right. I, I have not thought about it since Oscar season ended. And I remember when Vanessa went to see it so that she could talk about it with me here on the show. One of the things that she said was that she was kind of relieved. I don't know where you were at that moment that the movie came out. She was like, I'm a little relieved that I didn't have to go see this with Jeff because the two of us just sitting there bawling would have been unreal.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's no good. That's no good. I also wanted to mention, I don't know, that we talked about on the show or we were off or one of us was gone. We did something else. Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi is here. She passed away recently at an all too young age. A wonderful graphic novel and a terrific, terrific, terrific adaptation at the same time. There's a bunch. There's a bunch. It's a fun list to go see and maybe if there are some adaptations that are a little bit of deeper cups that you may not have seen scene at the same time and some things that maybe you didn't know that the original book that Mean Girls is based on is called Queen Bees and Wannabes, which all I've got to say is good retitling Tina Fey. I think you were on to something there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And like the rare moment of taking a work of non fiction like that's written by a psychologist or a sociologist and finding a way to build a story into it and fictionalize it, that's not easy to do. And Mean Girls turned out to be so much fun.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I realize I don't know the story of Faye picking that up. Like who, who gave what manuscript to whom and the end of the book.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's a great question. Yeah, I remember that that author was like on Oprah and doing the talk show circuit at the time and maybe and she was just sort of around like this com, this conversation was happening about like what's going on with teen girls. It's kind of on the heels of reviving Ophelia being a big book, Oprah also participated in making that one big and maybe Tina Fey just saw it out there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And lastly, the one I think Station 11 is my favorite on this list, but following hard on its heels, mostly because it was so additive, is the Watchmen adaptation that was on HBO in 2019, which was excellent and provocative and beautiful and Erica wrote about that. Here again, there's Just a little bit paragraph. But that's one that came out and it was a little bit of a. It's a meta thing about Watchmen, which Watchmen itself is a meta thing about comic books and superheroes. But man, was it good. I think my kids are probably ready to watch that now and get something out of it. So I'm going to be returning it to it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. The comic turns 40 next year and I have my eye on it as a possibility for zero.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Did you have you read that or did you watch the show? What's your relationship?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I read it. Yeah. I read it before I watched it the show and then I think when the show was running, I know we had a conversation. Maybe it was on our Best of the Rest episode at the end of that year. But about. I think it's episode five of that HBO season is like one of the best episodes of television that either of us had ever seen. So yeah, I wanted to get the background even knowing that the show would be an updated spin. But it was helpful to be grounded in that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Some of these books were certainly in the data sets for LLM models that have now looks like there's going to be giant the the US judge has approved the anthropic one we've been talking about. We talked about last week, the Google one that also I see no reason it wouldn't be similar. Like what what an external principle to use a parlance we use for what the settlement should be. Rebecca here another one and a half billion dollars per title. It's going to be in the $3200 range. Publishers Lunch wrote about and and reminded me that the the publishers themselves get a wet their beak in this and it's going to be a windfall for the big publishers that have a bunch of books in this to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars probably for PR age, which I would encourage them to use that to buttress their AI defense. You know, don't go pay this out as a dividend or, or what was it the 50 shades of gray $5,000 payments. Please use this to buy IP, reinvest this, hire lawyers because you have another couple of decades of fighting these wars, but kind of what we thought, 3,000 bucks if your book was in this. It doesn't put the toothpaste back in the tube, but it helps you helps you buy a new kitchen countertop, I guess, or a weekend away. Rebecca. So we're gonna follow that at the same time reduce the lawyers fees which is always kind of a weird thing I'm like, yeah, you're taking too much here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Nice to see that happen.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Anything else you want to cover on that? I don't know, except no, just kind

[Rebecca Schinsky]

of putting a bow on it. It was approved, it's carrying on. And then it'll be interesting to see I guess end of this year come early next year how this impacts publisher P. Ls but should see some interesting reports there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We have talked recently about ebooks being maybe ground0 for AI in publishing. Not necessarily the traditional publishers using them, not even self publishers. You know, as we've talked about these people that are putting on front street that they're using AI to write books that are, you know, romances or especially genre kinds of things, thrillers, mystery, where the tropes are a little more familiar and so there's more data and there's less of an expectation of novelty on the reader side. What we haven't talked about is the cavalcade of a constellation of slop that's surrounding authors and books that are. We saw this a while ago now. I don't think they were ARI generated. I think they had someone write these. It was like a study guide to a famous book.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like 10 or 15 years ago.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Early SEO game playing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes. But now as the cost of producing a low quality 90 page book using derivative materials has fallen to approximately zero at this point we are seeing biographies of people of lesser and lesser note that wouldn't warrant a full biography on their own and the work that entails. But basically scraping the Internet, whipping together maybe an interview their biography page on their homepage. What else is it? Whatever else is out there slapping that together and calling the biography of X and charging seven bucks for it. And they're all terrible and I don't know what we do about this, but we don't want this. This sucks. Rebecca, I don't know what to say.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean I think it's. It mostly comes down to Amazon is going to have to decide to do something about it and currently they don't care if you're peddling AI slop as long as the content isn't horribly offensive. Like they're just letting the market do its thing and people get tricked into buying these books and then they leave a bunch of negative reviews and sometimes that will prompt Amazon to take something down. But the writer of this piece, Kashmir, didn't know that this had happened to her until a friend texted her and was like, how come you didn't tell me there was a biography of you? And she's like, oh, that's. There is. That's news to me. So she buys it from Amazon. It's $26.99 in hardcover. A little bit steep for a 90 page biography, and she says it should be shorter. It does combine facts about her that are widely available on the Internet, you know, where she grew up. And then she also notes the generic kinds of insights that could be true of anybody, like what you get in a horoscope. Things like, you cannot understand Kashmir Hill without understanding her contradictions. And there's like an excruciating. She describes it as an excruciatingly long description of her elaborate coffee making ritual. But in fact, her husband makes the coffee in their house like it's just made up junk. And when she started digging in to figure out who this author was, she realized that the same author, in Scare Quotes, John Crane Miller, had published hundreds of these AI biographies, including many of her colleagues at the Atlantic. Before we were on the mic here, I was speculating with you. Like, if they're already down to AI slapping people who work at the Atlantic, is it just a matter of time before there's a bad one about one of us? Anybody whose name is on the Internet, is this coming for us?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I guess if they scraped our 15 years of podcasts, could you get right? What could you do? I don't think I have a contradiction. So they're gonna leave that. I don't. I think it all contains.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't know. But I don't think you need to understand my contradictions.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, but we could do some. Like, Jeff o' Neill isn't X, he's

[Jeff O'Neill]

Y. Oh, yeah, sure. Huh. Also, my coffee routine would take at least 110 pages with illustrations so that

[Rebecca Schinsky]

it is very specific. You've spent a decade dialing it in. So she's digging into try to figure out who this person is. And she can't ever contact him directly. Even when she thinks that she has figured out who the person really is, they don't respond to any of her inquiries. But she does end up finding another person who has published like 450 AI books. And he's willing to talk to her. So he talks to her about how he got interested in it, the value that he sees in it, how he's pursuing the criticism. Like, this whole piece is really interesting. We'll drop a link in the show notes to Kashmir Hill's piece at the New York Times. But just a wild moment. It's just a wild moment to see that. Now all of the books by this, whoever it was who made the AI slop biography of Cashmere Hill have been pulled down, but they had done like thousands.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes. It's gonna be a hard mole to whack because the nature of Amazon making space for self published people and I'm gonna say sort of human written legitimate uses of this. Those same gates that have been opened have let in these other things at the same time. Like they don't want to do a bunch of authentication. They don't want to make it super. They don't want to, they don't want to do the gatekeeping, at least on the technical side that publishing really does. Traditional publishing really does. I don't know how you keep this out necessarily. I think probably this will be a relatively narrow band of hucksterism because eventually people are going to realize that if you really want this, you could just get on Gemini or chat and just have it do it yourself. Right, Right. Like there's, this is speaking to people that don't know what these products are. They don't know about Print on Demand, which was a 2699 hardcover is. They don't know that this process goes on. And it's going to be a little bit like the, the archaism of like the Nigerian princess emailing you to help you. That only lasted so long before that scam was sort of inculcated into our culture and our understanding how the Internet works. This one will happen along the same way. Be careful out there. Tell your dad, tell your mom, tell your great aunt about this.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And if they're looking at audio, this is really prevalent right now. I was looking at the Apple podcast charts this morning because I like to see how we're doing and I think it was at number 10, but it was placing in the top 10 books shows on Apple Podcast chart was something just called the Odyssey. When I clicked into it, each episode was a different book of the Odyssey. And when I scrolled down to the maker info, the copyright was just like copyright, you know, my open domain Odyssey or whatever. Like it's just someone who uploaded the text of one of the public domain editions of the Odyssey into some AI generating voice thing, made an audiobook and slapped it up on Apple. And the people who have encountered it are not pleased. The reviews are negative. But enough of them are finding it and engaging with it that Apple's algorithm thinks it's popular. And this is. We've seen it happen with the let them theory. I've seen it happen with a couple other self Help books usually within a day or two. Apple cottons on that this is what's going on. And they. That is removed from the charts. But there are enough people stumbling into it and the reviews are like by book 3 you can tell this is totally AI. It doesn't hang together. But it is sort of just a moment where it's easy to try it and people haven't totally caught on that these things are out there. So looking for who made a thing, does it have a real copyright? Is that publisher on this ebook a real publisher?

[Jeff O'Neill]

We need to keep the Gates, Rebecca. What have we done to the Gates? This is horrible.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Especially I run into it all the time when I'm looking all the time looking for editions of the like the old books that we're talking about for zero to well read. And I'll be like, is this an actual edition of Little Women? And some of them I'm sure are fine. But I'm looking for it better have a mainstream publisher's name on it. And if I Google and you're not a real publisher or I can't track it down to one of the, not even the. Just the big five but like one of the top ten publishers. I'm not touching it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No. Can't touch it at the same time. Yeah, be careful out there. I hope this goes away and I hope I'm right that it won't last very long. I mean one thing that the LLMs do have, especially when it comes to prose or book lengths or narrative stories of any kind, is continuity, consistency over time. Like it could put together a few pages that say, seem kind of coherent, but then 30, 40 pages that character consistency and relevant idiosyncrasy and movement in action, it just doesn't. It just can't hold those things together now maybe that won't be true for always. I don't know what Nvidia Chip will have in five years that maybe can do this stuff. And the data gets a little bit more integrated, but there's also not a lot more data out there, frankly about this. Like they've already stolen all the books these court cases have shown. So I'm not really sure.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I don't even know that it's about the data so much as the technologies just having to figure out how to make it more coherent. And you know, like neither of us is anti AI. We're not against the existence of this technology. And I think there are some interesting uses for it. It's very possible that some of the like audio generation stuff like there are already accessibility applications of that folks being able to like upload legal documents or long work documents and have an AI voice read them a document or a book in a way that works for them. It's really possible we might reach a place where like AI generated audiobooks are a good enough experience that consumers seek them out. And if that's what some people want to do, okay, I prefer a human, but me too, I think. So good, so good, so good.

[Jeff O'Neill]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

That's why you rack

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like I understand that these are out there, this technology is out there and that there are some people who won't care or who would rather it be cheap than be high art. And I think we've got to make our peace with some of that. Like if you're still thinking we can just get rid of all the AI stuff, probably not going to happen. But while we're in this weird. It's not an uncanny valley, but we're in this strange moment where it can do a lot of things but it doesn't do them very well yet.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, most of it sucks and it may suck for a long time. And I think there are people that are using especially around code or systems and database, real structured data. The thing about art is it tends not to be structured. It tends to be pretty unruly. And that unruly is a feature, not a bug. And I haven't seen anything really even. Even in these short AI thinking maybe it was AI short story. I was like, those short stories are mid baby. Like, I don't know. I wasn't like, wow, I'm gonna get fooled. This is. This could have been a Lauren Groff short stories like that ain't out there, but I'm definitely choosing and leaning into the the human made stuff for sure.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I've been thinking about that a lot this week because I'm reading the new Claire Vay Watkins novel Yellow Pineapple. I'm not done with it yet, so I'm not ready for like a front list foyer moment for it. But it intersects so neatly with Verb youb Enthusiasms, which you talked about last week.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You're looking at the verbs.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Now that I know what a manner verb is, I'm doing beter Meinhof. I'm seeing manner verbs everywhere, but there are some really creative ones in the Claire VAY Watkins. And every time I hit one, I have this little brain fizz where I'm like, that's so fun that she came up with this way to say this thing. And also AI could never.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's just so creative and you can feel the creativity behind it. And I want that. And I think it's maybe those kinds of things that will continue to be markers for us of what is human generated and that maybe that's the direction that I want to lean. Because if you look at anything and you try to figure out is some portion of this AI generated, you can find something that looks like it might be. But if you go in for like, show me, let me find evidence that this is human created and you come across the things that feel truly innovative or surprising. All those kinds of things that specific,

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think as much as anything. And that specifically leads. Yeah. You might Notice how often AI generated text falls back to forms of 2 b m is were, b being bin. Just because that's regression to the mean. Right. Those are the lattice work of most of our understanding. But it doesn't often sashay itself over to a more interesting verb. Anytime. Let's see, what are we doing next? Ah, yes. Taylor Jenkins Reid. Undeterred to take on Percival Everett to have the same release day for TJR's next book, which sounds pretty interesting to me, actually. The Last Days of Vic and Coco. It is. Is this a March title now? Yeah, March 2nd. Which has some beach elements. But I will say this, if any, I know there are people out there that like, study covers, design. I would love to have like a last 10 years kind of dissertation or monograph on the use of cigarettes and book covers. Because this has a person's arm outside of like a vintage truck in the high desert, Montana. I don't know. It's sunburnt, sun bleached, like stubble post harvest. That's a little too wheat forward for those of you out there. But I understand that I may be specific in my relationship to wheat and the seasons. But this seemed my. I really went to the cigarette because if this were commercial beach book. This does not have a cigarette, Rebecca. Am I crazy to think about that? That is actually meaningful. There's no cigarette. They don't put cigarettes on, like the Emily Henry's or the. The. I'm gonna read the. The Jenny Jackson's. No shade at them. But like, the cigarette is a signifier of something.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, it's the 70s in this book. I think that that's important.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, but Kristin Hannah writes books set in the 70s and there's not people like blasting darts on the COVID of her books.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think a couple things are happening here. You are maybe a little over indexed on cigarettes on book covers. It's okay. Arundhati Roy looked just unspeakably Chantal Johnson. Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is a, this is a positive indicator to me. Now. I don't like cigarettes. I think no one should smoke them. But I guess this is the country live in. But as an indicator of this, it's like Joan Didion and Chantal and Andate and maybe TJR is like, yes, I want to be in that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And they're coming. Representations of smoking are coming back in me.

[Jeff O'Neill]

They are.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I don't know what's up with that. The kids are not picking up cigarettes at any higher rates than, than they have.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, the vapes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They're all vaping. They're all vaping and you look like a goober no matter what. But cigarettes look cooler than vapes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm sorry, it's just vape looks like you're sucking on a Pez dispenser.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And maybe we just got like Mad Men pilled, you know? Yeah, that's, that's fine. I think Don Draper smokes like 85 cigarettes in the first episode.

[Jeff O'Neill]

He's definitely dead.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

He Definitely 100%. But this is new. TJR novel is about best friends Vic and Coco, two women who are pool hustlers in the 1970s. And they are going on a road trip to try to get their biggest score yet. So we've got lady friends, we've got a con job and a cross country road trip. And there's a cigarette dangling off of one of their hands on the COVID of this book. So just assign me all the way up.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right. Pool hustlers.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yep.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Pretty well trodden territory. But not, I don't think of any representation of lady pool hustlers. Yeah. So Thelma and Louise meets the Color of Money or the, the Hustler or something like that.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Meets a couple scenes of Bull Durham maybe.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, right, that's, that's a good, that's a good pool sequence of the scene. Rebecca, if you were going to hustle someone, what, what is your. What's your, what's your con? What's your angle?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I did win a bar bet a couple of years ago with some dudes who didn't think that I could name all the presidents because they could not name all the presidents.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And they were an ergo, by masculinity logic, it was impossible for you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They were being really loud and talking to each other about how like, dude, you couldn't name all the presidents. And I was with my friend and I leaned over and I was like, I can because they taught me a song with all the presidents. And then in fifth grade, and then you just tack on the ones that have happened since then. And that thing is an earworm and it's been in my head forever.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's in there, it's in there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So that's probably it. I was a little insulted that apparently I look like a lady who can't name all the presidents.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But what does that person look like to you? That person that you're not? Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't know. I got a free margarita, so that's great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think stung them from. See the thing about a hustle, that's, that's a tough one because you have to lay that trap somehow. The thing about a pool table, it's in the bar, right? That's why it's the great hustling thing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What are you hustling people on?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't know. I don't think you have so much

[Rebecca Schinsky]

random trivia in your brain that I don't know.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, my brain is cottage cheese. It's leaking out my ears by the day. I think what I could do is I'm pretty good at ping pong, but I'm weirdly good at ping pong left handed. Oh, and I'm not good at, I can't even write my name left handed. So I think maybe if I did some sort of Indigo Montoya. I'm not left handed either situation. Right. Like maybe we're playing ping pong and I'm using my left hand and I seem, I seem like a competent ping pong player, but I'm much better right handed. So if like someone's like, oh, I'm could beat this person left handed, maybe I could say, okay, oh, we're, we made a hundred dollar best. Now I switch over and I do and I'm not left handed sort of

[Rebecca Schinsky]

situation, I have questions. How did you figure out that you're really good at ping pong left handed?

[Jeff O'Neill]

So in order to make. So we had a ping pong table in my house growing up and my brothers and I spent a lot of time playing each other at ping pong. And my middle brother Wes is very good at ping pong. And so playing him, I got kind of as Good as I could be right handed. But when I would play other people, I wanted to make it interesting, so I played left handed.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

So then I got practice playing left handed like my little brother, who's six years younger than I am. When I'm 15 and he's seven, it's no fun for me to play him right handed, so I'd play left handed.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Upping the ante for yourself.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And it's not about being nice to people. It's about, like, you know, Bobby Fischer playing both sides of the chessboard. Again, I'm not comparing myself to Bobby Fischer, but when you're just sort of randomly playing someone, you know, at summer camp in ping pong, I don't want to play right handed.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Play left hand.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Are you still good?

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, I'm okay. I'm probably better than the average person, but no, I'm still not good. My. My eyesight's going. My coordination. The other thing that's funny is the. The room that our pool. Excuse me, our ping pong table is in. Growing up was in the basement, and it was just barely bigger than the ping pong table. So we really learned playing with our thighs pressed up against the table, like, really close in sort of a situation.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's not Marty supreme stuff here.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And so we have this weird style where it's all. It's almost. Almost like pickleball version of ping pong. We were really up close. And that's also disconcerting to someone's like, why are you standing? Why are you standing right? And I'm tall, and I'm not like an octopus. I'm standing right next to ping pong table. It's all Jeff on the other side of the ping pong table when you're playing me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So this is an amazing visual, and I'm glad we went down that rabbit hole together.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Sometime we'll play ping pong and I'll show off how I could have been. I'm probably just as good left hand as I'm right handed. Now. That would be my hustle. So we could. We could work out. We could work out kind of a. A yin and yang con between the ping pong table and the presidential stuff. I think would be pretty good. I think we could work something out here. We gotta. We could get them coming and going that way.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So a new Taylor Jenkins Reed is coming March.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I don't know. I've been doing so well with Segs Segways that I don't really know what to do here next. I. Rebecca Heroes has continued to sell well outside of the fourth wing. We've seen some take up. In terms of a book based on her other work, I'm not sure Apple TV is adapt adapt the rights to her next novel. I guess on this point with Apple it doesn't really matter if it's based on a book. They make good tv. It doesn't matter that she's not based on anything or shrinkies not based anything. Maybe they can they like the story and maybe it's just a plus for them. Someone's got to write it. So I'm wondering if there's a story of Apple getting into the Rebecca Yarrows game or Apple's looking for good stories and they like this one. I don't know what you think about that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I would guess it's the latter. So they've picked up its peculiar stars comes out in November and it is here. Well, here's the log line. After a cyclone strands a young woman on a deserted island with a member of her fiance's family, survival upends everything she thought she knew about love. But when they're finally rescued and re enter their world of privilege, expectation and secrets, homecoming proves far more dangerous than the island island they left behind. So you got some deserted island romance, some family drama. It could be fun. Yeah. I have more faith in an Apple adaptation or just an Apple series in general than most of the other streamers right now because they are generally so high quality.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We'll see. I think at this point I am more likely to watch this Apple adaptation than I am to go read the Rebecca Yarrows book, so.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, that's, that's a thousand percent true. Elsewhere on the adaptation front, I think it's a little rich to say you're fast tracking a silent patient adaptation when this book has been out and selling well for several decades. Several decades? Several years. I think five or seven years. Like a pre covered this was a. Is a huge seller. Michael 80s became an intro, one of those interesting tweeners when it comes to mystery thrillers. Like he doesn't write. It's not like Donna Tart where it's every 10 years and it's super literary but it's also not three. You know, it's not a Freda McFadden like this is every couple years. I think they're better than a more frequent writer of these kinds of thrillers. It tends to be more interesting. He's interested in the classics like the Maidens I didn't think was amazing, but I thought was Interesting. I thought the Silent Patient was quite good as a thriller reading kind of upmarket thriller experience. I'm a little curious about why suddenly so quickly for Sony. But I think this will be good. I think this has a really good premise and I expect this to be pretty decent.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I haven't read the book. The biggest question is why it took so long for an adaptation to be optioned. I don't recall seeing previous announcements so I don't think it was like someone bought it first and then it got killed or something. Yeah, yeah. It hasn't been stuck in development hell. Who knows what kinds of conversations have happened behind the scenes. But it is interesting that a book that was that big and like we were closer to peak adaptation when the Silent Patient was big wasn't snapped up sooner. And Sony and maybe some of this is having watched the success of the Housemaid and some of the other like tick tock sensations, maybe they're like let's get on it. So they've waited a while but now they're gonna fast track they've got it and they're gonna run with it. So I don't. 20, 28 maybe.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, maybe. Anyway, worth noting there. I was surprised. Is this a News item from2019. It is not patient at the same time speaking from Mrs. Speaking of Mrs. From a different time. I've got bad news for all of us and that is everything fades. Nothing is remembered and we're all going to die. And that message brought to you in the form of looking at. Kelly Jensen shared with us this morning a list of books that were the most most requested from libraries in 150 cities. According to the ALA, the American Library is issued 50 years ago and this was in the newspaper and top eight for fiction and then a similar number for it. Mine gets cut off a little bit here and Rebecca, we're not going to read all these off. If we read all of these off there is a chance that the median listener has read zero of them.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I have read zero of them.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I read Trinity by Leon Uris. That's the only one. I read a couple.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And when I was trying to figure out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, yeah, I recognize author names like Leon Uris, Gore Vidal, Robert Ludlum.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Have you read a book by any of these authors? Oh yes, Woodward and Bernstein. You read all the President's Men. That's not on this list. The Final Days is. Which is the follow up, I believe.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I've read some Woodward, but I have not read any of these actual titles and so this was just, we say all the time, like most things are forgotten. Your baseline expectations should be even if you win one of the big book awards, you will be forgotten within a couple of decades. And this is just a snapshot of library requests, but as we know, library requests tend to be a trailing indicator of what was big in the culture and what people were trying to get a hold of the. And these are certainly big names attached to some of them. But a sobering and I think always helpful reminder to us when you get your dander a little too far up about like what is your literary legacy going to be, Just remember that most of us won't have any.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And the one that jumped out to me, I didn't listen through, I didn't look through all of these. But the one that was on the list the longest on the fiction is a book called the Choir Boys by Joseph Wamba, which I have never heard of this person or this book. This of course would be the year 1976 in which it was pub. You know, that's 50 years ago now. This book is a tragic comic parody about the effects of urban police work on young officers seen through the exploits of a group of Los Angeles police officers in the Wilshire division of Los Angeles. According to Wikipedia here, a group of 10 parol officers on night watch conducts end of shed get togethers in which they. And they, they do debriefs essentially of what happened and they drink and they tell stories and it's told through Rebecca. Am I nuts? Does that sound kind of cool? I kind of think that sounds like someone could make something out of that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Anyway, a cab, but okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, okay. All right. So there's that. Yeah. I don't know, man. This is just what it is. So I think probably, I'm not sure there's a positive spin, but the things that are popular and if you're frustrated by things that are popular like I am sometimes, I don't know that's a counter indication of endurance, but it certainly is no indication of endurance. So we look at the best sellers you and I are like, man, I'm not sure this bestseller list I would love to put on my tombstone, that fades too. I think if we looked at the award winning books from 1976, the New York Times notable best of, I think we'd. We would feel much better about the things that have endured. I didn't go do that. Have we? It's been a while. Sorry. I'm really getting three thoughts out at once. It's been a While. Since we did the power ranking, the Books of X from a year ago.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, we have here. Yeah, we have one. One more left in the year.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, maybe let's check up on 1976 while we're there. Let's just do a little. Let's. We could do a little add on for the. For the folks. So that was my. I'm assuming that's why you put this in. Rebecca, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I think we probably had a similar kind of reaction to it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, we'll check in on 1976. But it's. It was one of those, like. Let's just remind ourselves that this is how it tends to go. And yeah, as you were saying, if you're despairing over whatever is popular, like let's just say if you're despairing over yesteryear this year, you don't need to be concerned that it just means that literature is gonna be crappy forever. Cause we've always had these kinds of books that are popular and that fade. I pulled up Goodreads just to take a look. The most popular books on Goodreads published in 1976 begin with Interview with the Vampire. Number one, the Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. Children of Dune, which is Dune. Number Three, Roots by Alex Haley. Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry. Remember that one from elementary school?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

All Things Bright and Beautiful by James Harriot. Like a lovely collection of essays. He Was a Veterinarian.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The Omen by David Seltzer. A horror book on Writing well by William Zinsser. A Course in Miracles by Helen Shookman. And Sleeping Miss Marple, number 12 by Agatha Christie.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So none of these are on this list.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right? Yeah. And then you get Even Cowgirls get the Blues, Dragon song by Anne McCaffrey. The Woman Warrior by Maxine Hong Kingston. So, yeah, and these were just. I think this list was a snapshot of a particular moment in library requests, but there was a lot of pretty good stuff happening. 1976 also had slapstick or Lonesome no More by Kurt Vonnegut. Eaters of the Dead, Michael Crichton. A River Runs Through It, I was

[Jeff O'Neill]

gonna say, which then didn't win the Pulitzer. That's why memory from 1976, the great

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Santini by Pat Conroy.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, people love that book. I've never read it. People love that book in that movie. And I've never seen either.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Fathers and Sons, man.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Fathers and Sons, man. The thing that also jumped out to me is that there's a Robert Ludlum title here. I guess I did read the original Born. Isn't that Ludlum, the original boy?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes, that's Ludlum.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I've read that. And then also Sydney Sheldon. Sheldon and Ludlam have been grocery storing it for 50 years plus at least. Yeah, I don't think I knew that. I don't think I I knew that. All right, on to things people reading from 50 years ago. We can talk about things we are reading now or have read now. Brought to you by thriftbooks.com you know, one nice thing about Thriftbooks is because of the way they're set up, very hard to get slop onto their platform. So that might be another virtue of doing your book browsing and discovery there. They don't have ebooks, they don't have audiobooks, new and used print. And in those sorts of situations, it's not as attractive to grifters and hucksters. So go to thriftbooks.com to get your Emily Wilson. Maybe you want to check out 1876 by Gore Vidal, which I'm guessing he published and wrote to capitalized on the bicentennial in 1976 at the same time. Thanks for them for sponsoring this episode, this installment of Frontless Foyer Rebecca, what have you been into?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So it's not totally front list because it's from 2020, but I am reading Art Curious by Jennifer Dasal, or Dasal. She's a curator and had also been the host of a podcast called Art Curious. When I was in Chicago for ALA a couple weeks ago, I spent a day at the Art Institute, one of my favorite places in the world. I love art, but I don't know a lot about it. Number one on my retirement projects someday is going to be art history classes and go be a docent at the art museum. But I always browse the museum bookstore and I've got this little stack of art books that I keep meaning to get to. So I picked this one up. I read it this week. Each chapter is an unexpected or surprising or weird story from the world of art history.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Love it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Based on the research that she had done for her podcast and also just her education as an art historian. So you get things like I love modern and abstract stuff. So my favorite so far had been a chapter about how the abstract expressionists like Jackson Pollock and William de Kooning, those guys got a big boost in post World War II America because the CIA secretly funded a bunch of abstract expressionist exhibitions and had them travel around Europe because during the cold, Cold War. The US Wanted to invest in convincing people that democracy was the way to go instead of. And the capitalism was okay instead of communism and socialism. And they wanted to use the arts and, like, illustrating the American way of life. So they take all of this modern work and trot it around Europe and they're like, see in the communist states or the socialist states, states communism could never was.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That was the CIA's propaganda plan.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Basically.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Like, they.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They didn't say it, they just let it speak for itself of, like, you're living in a socialist state where the artists who get funding are told, like, what to paint and how to paint and to present, like, images that support the ideology that the nation is trying to go forward with. But look over here, we don't have any rules. You can do whatever you want.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You don't have to write about real world workers and people digging in mines and stuff.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You can spread your canvas on the floor and you can slap paint all over it. And, like, none of the artists knew that these things were secretly funded by the CIA because of course, a lot of them are, like, very left leaning and would not have participated. But that was fascinating. You get stuff like, why does Monet's work start to be brighter and, like, closer to primary colors near the ends of his career? And it's because he started to develop cataracts and he couldn't see the pastels. Like, just all sorts of fascinating things. Yeah, it's great. Like, I'm gonna go back and listen. The podcast hasn't had new episodes for a few years, but I think I would love this. It'd be a great experience on audiobook. You know, you could do, like, I've done just like a chapter a day, super informative. And, like, I feel like, you know, I'm pulling up the paintings and looking at them on my phone, or, like, pulling him up on my laptop and trying to really get, like, what she's taught, like, the images that she's describing. But it's just cool to know the backstories of things and that it's not just about artistic technique, but about, like, Monet and his group of sort of rebel painters who started their own thing because they couldn't get into the historic shows, the traditional fancy shows. And then Monet finally gets invited to one and he takes it. So all of his friends stop talking to him because he sells them out. And he's like, who cares? I'm Monet now.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Humans, baby.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yep.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Don't change all that much, do they? That sounds Very cool. It's really good.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I think the audio would be right up your alley. It's really great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Speaking on audio. It was on my list and then you were so enthusiastic. I did listen to our Knives Will Save Us by now.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm so glad.

[Jeff O'Neill]

A White Mountain Apache chef. It's a addiction memoir. It's a coming of age in a lot of different, different ways. It's also an ode, a discovery of an ode to indigenous food ways. Educational, heartbreaking, plain spoken, fascinating, a wonderful, interesting voice populated by fascinating characters in its own right. I'm not going to get the figure of the. The. I can't remember the. The title but I think the clinical director of this shelter, he stays in in Baltimore, which would make if this ever gets made to into a movie, that part is going to be a juicy one for. For someone to get a lot of stuff I didn't know. And again, like we've said about food memoirs, I think you said about when you were talking about frontless foyer, like it needs to take me to a little bit of a different place that I haven't been before in this and it certainly does that. So my recommendation if you like food books and memoirs there also on audio, I began to listen to. To Unsayable, which is a memoir, a writing memoir by Michael Cunningham. Michael Cunningham, best known for writing the Hours, which won the Pulitzer Prize and it was turned into a very well regarded movie starring Nicole Kidman as Virginia Woolf in one of the more notable nasal prosthetics you're going to see. And I wouldn't using our heuristic of you need to have three books for an author to be one of your authors. I didn't have three. I think I had done Specimen Days and I read the Hours, but I haven't done a third. But he was teaching at Columbia while I was studying there in like the health and literature department. I went to a lecture that was really interesting that he did. And so he's always been on my radar and I've never really had much of a reason to return to. But I like a memoir by writers that's under eight hours. And the hook, the special hook here is he's telling his story but also tracing also interweaving his thoughts about writing, his own experience of writing and close readings of notable texts and then his own sort of conversion stories around specific books. For example, he's reading Giovanni's room in the hospital room where his mom is dying. He has this long dark night of the soul where he's Reading Song of Myself in that famous section of, you know, you who touches this touches a man, not a book. And he's like, oh, my God, I feel this. Does this work? And then I'm having this place like, oh, my God, he's having the same. That's all very cool, and I really like that. But then he cares about writing interesting sentence. His own discussion of similes, his own discussion of word choice and the idiosyncrasy of it. But then he's also doing it as he's talking about it.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because the sentence themselves are idiosyncratic and interesting. So I stopped listening to immediately and went out and bought the book because. Wait a minute, I need to slow down. This is not. This is not the right format.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Gotta be able to take notes because

[Jeff O'Neill]

memoirs, as people who have heard the show say, that's. I think of that as being the canonical experience of a memoir if it's especially written by the person. But I really wanted to slow down and take a look and linger. And I thought it was really unbelievable. I was quite moved by it. So. Yeah, that's Unsayable by Michael Cunningham. I'm thrilled that I had this experience. I was so. I found myself being so delighted to be so delighted as I was rolling through it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Do you think we're breaking your reading slump? I know you've been in a little bit of one lately.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Maybe. Maybe I haven't wanted to pick up like a big old fat novel and do four or five hundred pages. I don't know what's keeping me from doing it. I just don't want to do that.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is it just that nothing else is go gentle? Is that the problem?

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

I don't know.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That'd be picking up co. Gentle right now. I'm just not sure. I don't know. I don't have a good explanation for it at this particular moment. You know, like, this happens to me every now and again.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It happens to all of us.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, yeah. It will switch off as mysteriously and contingently as it switched on are off.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And sometimes you, I know, emerge from reading slumps into, like, great reading tears.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You'll have been in a slump and then you'll come back and you're like, I read 10 books.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I read seven books. I read seven books for the last 10 days or something like that. I do. This is. Maybe I don't think it's tmi, but it's where the. The personal and professional meet. I do think there's something that my kids are older and they stay up later. So, you know, anyway, we'll be out doing something till 9:30, 10 o'.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Clock.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, that's really a lot of my reading time has historically been in the morning and it's summertime and I'm out running. I've got a busy work life and then I'm kind of up till 9, 9, 30, 10 with the kids, it's bedtime. So like the two hours of undirected yet generative reading time that are in off in my days and maybe that's, maybe that's fine. That's seasonality. Like gather the rosebuds while you may. I'm not going to be sad. I spent an extra two hours on the summer nights with my kids in 10 years.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Absolutely.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I'm not, I hope people here. I'm not lamenting it necessarily because it's not like I'm sitting around doing something that's bad, smoking cigarettes on the COVID of books for four hours a day. So I'm not lamenting it, I'm just noting it. I'm just noting it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We have an episode for Zero to well read later this fall about reading slumps and how to break them. But one of the things we always talk about when folks write into us on this show is like you don't have to try to break it if the reason you're reading less is that you're doing other things in your life that are valuable and important to you. Like yeah, for everything there is a season.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Vora value over replacement activity is kind of, it has to beat a couple of interesting things for me right now, which is good. And I've said on the show in the years where on the higher side my reading like 150 books a year, I'm not, I'm not exactly happy with that either because I haven't gone to an art museum. I haven't spent a lot of time with music. I haven't done TV shows or been exercising or been out in the world. So about a hundred is where I feel like I've definitely done some serious reading. And that's important to me and I care about it and professionally it's useful. But much more than that and I think I get a little lopsided. I need to practice my left hand, I guess is what I'm saying. If I've read 150 books in a

[Rebecca Schinsky]

year, I think like 100 is also my sweet spot. I'm tracking for that to be a little bit more this year. But also we're coming into a really slow stretch of new releases for the next six, eight weeks. And I'm not sure that I'm going to be trying to pack it in for the same reasons. Like, we're at the end of summer. There's travel. There are other things to be doing in life. It's all right. It happens.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, yeah, I'll come out of it. And I've got a. I've got a stack of stuff I'm excited to read. And I'm sure once the train gets moved in the right direction, school starts again. Kids will have homework. I think that's part of it, too. In the evenings during the school year, like the kids have homework or they have later practices in the day or other activities that sometime then opens up. But while my kids are home and wanting to spend time with us, I am not too inclined to say, yeah, you go do your thing and I'm gonna go pick up this novel that'll be forgotten about in 50 years because everything fades.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Anyway. All right, Rebecca, thanks so much. BookRide.com Listen for show notes you can follow. You can get the Patreon this. It will be out by the time this episode is out in the main feed. For most folks, our fantasy league check in. Laura and Sharif are back. That's where we take stock of our draft picks that we've picked for 2026. And then we have some opportunity to swap in some swap in and out some choices to make that more interesting. And zero to well read in the feed right now is Underground Railroad. Go check that out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And tomorrow, as you're listening will be Fahrenheit 451.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Fahrenheit 451, which was wonderful to return to. And if you haven't checked out the book movie comparison show we did in Zero to well read, that's also we did a twofer. We saddled up and Vanessa joined us. Shoot us. Email podcastookrat.com for any and all feedback. Rebecca, thank you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Have a good one.