The Long Odds of the Slushpile, Adaptation News, and Picking Vacation Reading

Summary

Book Riot - The Podcast
Episode: The Long Odds of the Slushpile, Adaptation News, and Picking Vacation Reading
Release Date: March 24, 2025
Hosts: Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky

---

1. Collaboration with Tracy Thomas

[01:05] Jeff O'Neill:
Jeff reflects on last week's engaging conversation with Tracy Thomas from The Stacks Podcast. He praises Tracy’s ability to manage her own show and Patreon, noting the challenges of running a podcast solo.
[02:10] Tracy Thomas:
Tracy admires Jeff's appreciation for the effort it takes to maintain a podcast, emphasizing the importance of community and communication with listeners.

2. Aardvark Book Club Giveaway

[03:54] Jeff O'Neill:
Book Riot announces a giveaway sponsored by Aardvark Book Club. Listeners can win either a literary box or a genre box by signing up on the Book Riot Substack.
[03:54] Tracy Thomas:
Tracy adds excitement about the carefully selected books in the membership and subscription boxes, encouraging listeners to participate.

3. Publisher Promotions

Bloom Books - Story of My Life by Lucy Score
[04:57] Bloom Books Promo:
Promotes Story of My Life, a romantic comedy by Lucy Score, highlighting its setting in Story Lake, Pennsylvania, and its appeal to fans of small-town comedies.

Brilliance Publishing - Missing Youg by Harlan Coban
[07:12] Brilliance Publishing Promo:
Introduces Missing Youg, a thriller adapted into a Netflix series, encouraging listeners to explore the audiobook benefits.

[07:17] Additional Brilliance Publishing Promo:
Promotes Compassion in the Court by Judge Frank Caprio, sharing heartfelt stories from his career and emphasizing themes of dignity and justice.

4. Reading Live with Stephen Graham Jones

[08:22] Jeff O'Neill:
Jeff shares his experience hosting a Reading Live segment with Stephen Graham Jones, praising his storytelling prowess and announcing a two-part episode featuring Jones and Jack Loohan’s Phosphorus.
[09:17] Tracy Thomas:
Tracy expresses excitement about Jeff's Reading Live recordings, mentioning the captivating stories shared by Stephen Graham Jones.

5. Slush Pile Statistics and Publishing Industry Insights

Guest: Laura McGrath
[16:01] Tracy Thomas:
Rebecca introduces Laura McGrath, an academic specializing in publishing statistics, who will discuss the daunting numbers behind the slush pile in the upcoming episode.
[17:00] Discussion Highlights:
Laura reveals that U.S. literary agents receive approximately 16.5 million unsolicited manuscripts annually, with only a 0.4% chance of representation. The conversation delves into genre preferences, highlighting high interest in Young Adult and LGBTQ genres, while areas like cyberpunk and steampunk receive less attention.

Notable Quote:
[19:18] Jeff O'Neill:
“The slush pile is not quite trash; it's just what you get. Most of the time, it's people trying to sell you something that you're not interested in right now.”
[21:21] Tracy Thomas:
“Publishing is a gatekept industry. Many more people wish to become authors than publishing has space and money to publish.”

6. Current Political Events Impacting Education and Libraries

[27:00] Jeff O'Neill:
Jeff discusses Donald Trump’s anticipated executive order to abolish the Department of Education, explaining its limited immediate impact but emphasizing the importance of public action to oppose such measures.

[28:42] Tracy Thomas:
Rebecca connects this issue to broader political actions, comparing it to Chuck Schumer’s canceled book tour due to political backlash, and urges listeners to engage with their representatives through apps like 5Calls.

Notable Quote:
[31:46] Jeff O'Neill:
“Action and information are the best antidotes to your political anxiety.”

7. Bestsellers Discussion: Onyx Storm vs. Others

[31:31] Jeff O'Neill:
Jeff analyzes current bestsellers, noting Onyx Storm's strong sales with 19,000 copies sold last week, compared to Careless People with 60,000 and James with 7,000.
[32:14] Tracy Thomas:
Tracy discusses the sales trajectories of highly anticipated books and the challenges of maintaining bestseller momentum beyond initial release weeks.

Notable Quote:
[34:33] Jeff O'Neill:
“This first story we have is also kind of a preview of coming attractions.”

8. Sponsor: Thriftbooks

[38:55] Tracy Thomas:
Rebecca highlights Thriftbooks’ extensive selection of new and used titles, competitive pricing, and rewards program. She shares her positive experiences with fast delivery and diverse inventory, encouraging listeners to support the sponsor.

9. Frontlist Foyer: Vacation Reading Picks

[40:21] Jeff O'Neill:
Jeff introduces Frontlist Foyer, discussing books he plans to take on his trip to Hawaii, including The Dream Hotel, Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaughey, and others. He invites listeners to guess which books he might actually read during his vacation.

[46:42] Tracy Thomas:
Rebecca shares her excitement about the book Hunchback by Sal, praising its compelling narrative and vivid character development. She compares it to Tony Tulamundie’s Rejection, noting its unique voice and engaging storyline.

Notable Quote:
[51:27] Tracy Thomas:
“I want you to read O Sinners, because I want to screen it.”

10. Audiobook Excerpt

[59:09] Rebecca Schinsky:
Rebecca concludes the episode with an excerpt from the audiobook Ragpicker King by Cassandra Clare, providing listeners with a taste of the book’s intriguing plot and richly developed characters.

---

Notable Quotes Included:

• Jeff O'Neill [19:18]: “The slush pile is not quite trash; it's just what you get. Most of the time, it's people trying to sell you something that you're not interested in right now.”
• Tracy Thomas [21:21]: “Publishing is a gatekept industry. Many more people wish to become authors than publishing has space and money to publish.”
• Jeff O'Neill [31:46]: “Action and information are the best antidotes to your political anxiety.”

---

For more details and to participate in giveaways, visit BookRiot.com or subscribe to their Substack. Don’t forget to check out their other media offerings, including podcasts, newsletters, and original content tailored for diverse readers across all genres.

Transcript

[Jeff O'Neill]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You might say all kinds of stuff.

[Jeff O'Neill]

When things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They've got options to fit your unique.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Insurance needs, meaning you can talk to.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Your agent to choose the coverage you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Need, have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right on the State Farm mobile app.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And even reach a real person when.

[Tracy Thomas]

You need to talk to someone.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Tracy Thomas]

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to Mario's Bistro. The special tonight is the beef carpaccio. With the Venmo debit card, you can turn the basketball game tickets your friends paid you back for into a romantic dinner that you can earn up to 5% cash back on. Use your Venmo balance to pay for the things you love to do. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to license by MasterCard International, Inc. Terms apply. DOSH cashback terms apply.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is the Book Riot podcast. I'm Jeff O'Neill.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We're still coming down off last week, I think it's fair to say.

[Tracy Thomas]

You think?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Just travel being there. You know, we had a really good time with Tracy Thomas of the Stacks in the feed already. I've been thinking about a lot of what we said. If you haven't had a chance to go check that out over there. The first half is heart eye emojis and the second half is turd emojis. So that's the easiest way to explain what's going on there.

[Tracy Thomas]

We should have put that in the episode title. But it's so nice always to talk shop a little bit with somebody else who does this. And Tracy was just a total party.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. It's fun also to talk to someone who's done it on their own. Right. She has her own show and her own Patreon. And I think probably you and I have as much appreciation that as anyone could, knowing what we know about what.

[Tracy Thomas]

It takes to do that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I cannot imagine doing this by myself, like either being in the sidecar or having someone in my sidecar, as I tend to like. Or is there a sidecar? Or is this like a tandem bike situation? I don't know.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Sort of dual locomotion happening. And it depends.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's a vehicle built for two, and that's hard enough. I can't imagine running a whole show by myself, especially on the scale and the level of just like in depth communication that Tracy has with her listeners and her community as well. It's really admirable, really cool to see.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We'll have to have an excuse to have her back on sometime. Check out that episode. Go check out the Stacks podcast 2. Let's see other programming notes coming up on the Patreon. We're going to record it right after this, but it's going to come out next week. We are doing our version of what books do you need to even now I'm starting to qualify two well read and here's how I'm going to approach it and we'll talk a little bit more on the show. Let's say you're starting from zero, you've got no books in your, in your saddlebag which 10 give you the most well read points because I don't the, the, the well read CDN. I don't know how to define this. There's not 10 but like which are going to get you towards that goal the faster that always the end of the rainbow that we never seem to reach which gets you there. That's how I'm approaching it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Rebecca, how are you approaching the bang for your buck of redness? I like that. I'm thinking about the angle that I took is more what do you need to have read that sets you up to continue being like an informed good reader? So I'm thinking about the kinds of things that are referenced often in works that come after them or that make allusions. And like we took Shakespeare off the board so obviously it's not going to be you need to have read Hamlet so you can understand the Lion King. But like you kind of do need to have read Hamlet so you can understand the Lion King and everything else. So that's kind of the angle that I'm taking. And right now I'm panicking a little bit because I thought that we had said five and you just said 10. So so I'm going to pull some things off my long list.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But we could, you know, it's a never.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean we'll figure it out.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's a whole cheating is going to happen for sure. There another thing in the pre roll to the last show I mentioned that the good folks at Aardvark Book Club reached out to Rebecca and I to say hey, would you like one of our boxes and you know the things you do in promo. So you know what, Rebecca and I have plenty of book boxes but I bet our readers would be thrilled. So we're doing a giveaway for Book Riot podcast listeners. There's a link in the show notes there. Essentially there's two boxes up for grabs, a literary box and a genre box. And we're going to point you at the Book Riot substack. You have to sign up to be entered. If you're already signed up, you're already entered. You don't do anything else. There is a survey as part of the entry that you don't have to do but says which of the box which is you like and what genre? Just information and sort of for future things that we might be able to do. Be fun over there. That's going to be open until April 1st. Thanks for them to reaching out and and a lot of the books that they picked and this was in the pitch email. It's like, you know, a lot of the books that are in our membership and subscription stuff are books you talk about and they are right. Let's do a sponsor break and get on with the show.

[Unknown]

Today's episode is brought to you by Bloom Books, an imprint of Source Books, publishers of Story of My Life by Lucy Score Hazel Hart was a successful romance novelist. That is until a breakup drove her straight into writer's block to desperate for inspiration, she impulse buys a historic home sight unseen and flees Manhattan for the tiny story Lake Pennsylvania. When she gets there, she discovers the house is actually a wreck and she'll need all six feet and three inches of grouchy contractor Campbell Bishop to help renovate it. Before Hazel knows it, she's writing a romance novel and living in one at least until the drywall settles. Then the town she's falling in love with faces bankruptcy and Cam remembers why he can't live happily ever. The first in an all new small town romantic comedy series from number one New York Times best selling author Lucy Score is perfect for fans of small town comedies like Schitt's Creek and Gilmore Girls. Make sure to check out Story of My Life by Lucy Score. And thanks again to Bloom Books and imprint of Sourcebooks for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by Brilliance Publishing. The Sound of Storytelling if you like me like to, let's say enrich your show or movie watching by listening to or reading the book that the show was adapted from. I've got something for you. So Missing youg by Harlan Coban, narrated by January Lavoy is now a Netflix Original series and you can listen to the audiobook before or after you watch it. In this gripping thriller, NYPD detective Cat Donovan stumbles upon her ex fiance's profile on a dating site, which is, you know, starts to sound a little messy. It reopens Copen's emotional wounds from 18 years ago, and it unknowingly puts her into a dangerous conspiracy. As she investigates further, she's forced to question everything she knows about her past, including her father's unsolved murder. With her own life at risk, Cat must confront dark secrets and face challenges that will test both her physical and emotional strength as she uncovers a sinister web of deception. So make sure to check out Missing youg by Harlan Coban Narrated by Janere Lavoy and thanks again to Brilliance Publishing for sponsoring this episode.

[Tracy Thomas]

Foreign.

[Unknown]

Is brought to you by Brilliance Publishing. The Sound of Storytelling In Compassion in the Court, beloved viral sensation Judge Frank Caprio shares the remarkable stories and wisdom from his nearly four decades presiding over Providence's Municipal Court, where he became known worldwide as the nicest judge in the world. Through deeply moving accounts of real cases and personal reflections, Judge Caprio reveals how the lessons learned from his immigrant parents and his commitment to treating every person with dignity shaped his unique approach to justice. This book will touch your heart, uplift your spirit, and renew your faith in others and in yourself. Judge Frank Caprio, again the nicest judge in the world, brings to the page the same wisdom and spirit of decency that he has in his courtroom. Through respect, compassionate understanding, you can succeed. In Compassion in the Court, Judge Caprio shares transformative stories and lessons from his life and his courtroom. Make sure to check out Compassion in the Court by Judge Frank Caprio. And thanks again to Brilliance Publishing for sponsoring this episode.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I forgot I had one more promo thing today. Rebecca. I've done a lot of Reading live segments for the old Reading Live show and now for First Edition, but the one that was really it's now out. So it'll be out for sure by the time this episode is out. I did with Stephen Graham Jones though, you know, 35 books under his belt. A modern master of horror. Really, the last few books, I think he's taken a jump up in awareness. My heart is a chainsaw. Only good Indians and now Buffalo Hunter. Hunter. But I did a Reading Lives episode with him and he told three stories that would be in the top 10 that I've ever heard on doing Reading Live stories.

[Tracy Thomas]

Man, I had the treat of like being at your house while you were recording this episode. So you come downstairs like, dude, dude. Just had this amazing conversation and I will not spoil any of the details. Like gave me goosebumps hearing some of these stories, listeners are definitely going to want to check that out on First Edition.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Just a tender, thoughtful guy, humble, that writes the most deranged horror that you can ever imagine. So never trust the quiet ones. But one of my favorite I've ever done was Stephen Graham Jones. I was delighted by it went so well in fact that it was going to be a two part episode. The other episode is going to come out on Friday, March 21. Back to backer, but that's with Jack Lohman's White Light. His on phosphorus. It's out.

[Tracy Thomas]

Which is a real book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's a real book and it's out now. And it's, it's, it's genuinely good. It's 210 pages or so about phosphorus and why it matters. And a couple stories and journeys around the world. You're going to learn about the Bone river. You're going to learn about the Red Crag. You're going to learn about whale Fall. You're going to learn that you don't need to worry about the heat death of the sun. You got to worry about running out of phosphorus in a thousand years or so. So I really enjoyed that. I talked to him and his editor at Pantheon because the folks, good folks over there said, you know, this sounds like a Jeff book. Is, you know, interested in having him on the show. Like, well, I sort of don't do just random non fiction for no reason. Generally it's like either literary fiction or book or publishing related. I was like, well, screw it, I want to do this. We can make it happen. So we kind of did like the micro history. Oh, Siri's trying to talk to me. Shut up, Siri. We did this idea like how do you position a micro history? How do they get made, how do they get packaged? And Todd was very helpful in talking about this. A really cool guy. Right. So I'm really happy with how that turned out. But that's too much for one show. So I had to break it into two shows. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, this is what we say, get your own podcast for you got your own podcast.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I gave myself my own.

[Tracy Thomas]

You can talk about a Jeff book. Yeah. And it just, man, it feels good to be seen and known. I love that for you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So that's coming out there now next week on First Edition. I'm going to be in Hawaii next week, so I'm not gonna be able to shout it out. But next week is Tilt week. And Emma Peter, my interview with her is coming out on the 30th on the 27th. That's a week from today. The book comes out the 25th.

[Tracy Thomas]

I am just looking at that book with my fingers over my face.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh I have a story. A listener's story. I have to protect their name both because I love the Jeff youf were right. This book is amazing. But their local bookstore started selling it last week and I was like how dare. And I don't even think this listener.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because I wonder if it's a. Maybe it's not a one day lay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Down but even so like this is just isn't done. Rebecca like even with like the Dream Hotel or something like this doesn't happen. Wild Dark Shore is not sometimes no no.

[Tracy Thomas]

But sometimes it happens like it depends on who the publisher is. So like my assumption is that maybe somebody got confused and just put it out early. But some publishers are really strict about the one day lay down. Like it comes out on Tuesday the 25th and that is when you will put it on the shelves. And some publishers do not enforce a one day lay down. And it's you can put this out when you get it. And they tend to if they're going to be wiggly about it they tend to be more lenient on like debuts or lesser known kinds authors. So there's the, the Jeff O'Neill TM generous reading of that is maybe it's not a one day.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Maybe it's okay. Maybe it's okay. Yeah. And I guess it's not Onyx Storm or something like that. It's not you know, sunrise at the have a huge.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

If anything they probably don't mind that we're even a couple extra days on the shelves, right?

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's right. But this was an oh my God, I can't believe it. And I had to do it in one sitting except I have a six year old and then I had to go pick them up and think about them in an earthquake. So I'm really excited for people to check that out.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel very Jesse Spano Saved by the Bell. I'm so excited. I'm so scared about picking that one up.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean I don't, I don't think people are gonna. I mean of course people can hate whatever but I you yourself, I'd be surprised. You're like, oh, there's nothing here that's interesting to me at all.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh yeah, no, more like I know it's gonna be a rip roaring time and just scare my pants off.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I'd give yourself a nice three hour window to, to crack through it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Walk outside afterwards and really get grounded again.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. No, seriously, right? A doorway or in a ditch.

[Tracy Thomas]

Just audiobook it. Standing in a doorway.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Outside now. Just outside. That's in an open field. That's your best shot.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is fine. Everything is fine.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Let's see. On the other. There's not. This is not a lot of new story. Except that I thought it was cool that Pride and prejudice, the 2005 version, the McFadden Night One, is being re released on 4 20, April 20th for the 20th anniversary. I haven't looked to see if there's a spot around me. I would like to see this. I wrote in today in books.

[Tracy Thomas]

This would be fun.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I've watched this quite a few times. I like it quite a bit. I think McFadden, Knightley, and then Rosamund pike and Donald Sutherland are reasons to stay. And then Judi Dench and Tom Hollander are awesome villains. There's some of the characters I think are a little overwrought. I don't love Jenna Malone's Kitty or the woman who plays Mrs. Bennet. I can't remember her name right now. But the highs certainly outweigh the lows. And there's this little hand flinch that McFadden does for Darcy at the end that I generally think books are better at feeling. But that one, you can't narrate. You can't do it on prose. The way they shoot that. And they're just little things and flourishes that are beautiful. And the score, we lose in the score in my house all the time for reading days. So anyway, I think that's one.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I've never seen this, you know, because I'm not an Austin Pride and Prejudice, I'm not an Austonian. But I'm on the Keira Knightley train right now because I just watched Black Doves. I'm on the Matthew McFadden train coming out of succession. So I think if I'm ever gonna be a warm audience for this edition or any edition of Pride and Prejudice, it's probably right now. And I like going to the movies, so I'm gonna keep an eye out and see, like, if the local place near me that tends to get the artsy things or get the revivals if they get this, I might. I just might. I might go see it. We'll see. I will report back about my first experience. Baby's first Pride and Prejudice.

[Jeff O'Neill]

For the Austin heads out there, I speculated that for the modern generation, this version has eclipsed the Colin Firth BBC adaptation as the Pride and Prejudice adaptation of Record. Shoot me an email podcastookride.com if you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Think I'm right, if you think I'm wrong.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't know that it's a hot take. It's just, you know, my sense of it now. There was a whole thing about. There was. I don't know if there still is like there's a scene where Firth comes out of like the water and his shirt is all wet and it's very swoon worthy and sort of thing. But I think the modern sensibility, I don't know, I think it feels more modern and it's also a one hitter. It's just you can do the feature film of Pride and Prejudice where the BBC is a whole series which if you want to get immersed, that's a different kind of a situation there. All right. I guess this is. Also, this first story we have is also kind of a preview of coming attractions. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

You see what I did there?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I did. I like that very much. Tell me about it. What are we doing?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. So Laura McGrath, who is an academic who studies stats in the world of books and reading, particularly the publishing industry. Really cool. I want her to be my best friend. She's coming on the show next week to talk to us about the 10 most interesting or surprising stats in the world of books and reading. We have no idea what those are going to be. She's going to stick around and do a bonus episode with us where we put together what we try to imagine how we would run a fantasy league for books. She heard us talk about it on the show and was like, can I please bring my nerdery to this? And we were both like, oh my God, yes, please, we need help. But she runs a great relatively new substack. It's called Text Crunch. Laurabmograph. Substack. Com. And we'll have a link in the show notes where she went into the math around the slush pile. Yeah, this week it was eyebrow raising in several ways. If you're newer to publishing, the slush pile is all of the manuscripts that publishers and agents receive that are not solid. So this is just people who are hoping to get published who send their manuscripts out to agents with a like, please pick me, or less commonly, to send them straight to editors at publishing houses. It's a real needle in a haystack situation. I think we knew it was a needle in a haystack situation. But how small the needle and how big the haystack is pretty astonishing. There are, I mean, there are just Some incredible numbers in here. Like there's about 1500 literary agents in the U.S. to anyone's best guess, 300 of them are closed to queries. So that leaves about 1200 of them who have slush piles. Not everybody reads slush, but it's estimated that like one agency folio, their agents estimated that they collectively got about 100,000 unsolicited queries in a year, or about 11,000 per agent. That's like 20 to 30 a day. And McGrath was able to confirm that these are similar numbers that other agents at other agencies are seeing. So she says, let's assume each of the 1500 agents in the US gets a similar volume. That is 16,500,000 manuscripts in the big slush pile each given year. And there's a maybe 0.4% chance that one of those. That any one of those leads to an offer of representation by an agent. Really not encouraging numbers. Yeah. For a would be writer. Some charts, really interesting charts and graphs also about the genre of books that agents are looking for. Young adult, off the charts, lgbtq, right behind it. Women's fiction, then middle grade, then commercial thriller. At the very bottom. Yeah. At the bottom is cyberpunk, steampunk, which those had a moment, you know, maybe 10 or so years ago, but very interesting to see what agents are looking for. And that's a map of maybe also what we can expect to see on shelves in a few years. But. Yeah, I don't have a lotion, Jeff.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I think, look, it's not called the slush pile for no reason in terms of the qualitative valence of that word. Right. It's not quite trash. Right. It's just what you get. You might think of it being equivalent to sort of what shows up in your mail every day. Most of it you kind of don't care about now ever. And again, you get something interesting or important, but most of the time it's people trying to sell you something that you're not interested in. It may not even be you're a bad fit for. You just don't want it right now. Right. Like, I get all these ads in Portland for real estate agents who want me to sell my house. Like, theoretically, they may be a good agent. I may even need them sometime. But I'm not in the house selling mode right now, so it doesn't really help me. Same with all kinds of furniture, really. Most things I'm not buying any given time, and that's true of most people. I do think I'm going to Hedge a little bit here and say in preview, I just did an interview with Jane Friedman for First Edition. That's not coming out for a few weeks. That's the business of being a writer. And she's been a long time sort of providing services and insight to people who want to be writers on the business side. And this really strengths and this to me is that just sending someone your thing with no other thing to recommend it is not the way. That's not, you know, you be a literary citizen, you get out there in some way, you have a quote unquote platform and that could be a substack, that could be a podcast, that just be people know you an email list of your own. But you need some way for your thing to be, to stand out now every now and again. You could have been worked in solitude and isolation for four years on something and submitted it blind to an agent and they pick it up. That's not to say it's impossible, but the thing Jane says, and I think the implicit thing here with Laura's research is you should not expect that to have a great outcome for you. That's not enough. That's, you know, you're not, you could. There are ways to raise your chances out from very, very bad to merely bad. Frankly, a huge improvement.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And like, you know, all discussions about publishing's gatekeepers aside, like that's a conversation for another day. Publishing is a gate kept industry. Many, many more people wish to become authors than publishing has space and money to publish. So the typical path is you query agents about this is the book that I have. And with novels it tends to be a completed manuscript. With nonfiction it's us a couple of chapters and then a good outline. And they say either yes, I'd like to represent you and they'll shop it around to publishers or no, this is not for me. For most people, with most agents it's no most of the time like, and, and maybe just seeing these kind of numbers like that 16 and a half million manuscripts and I assume some of those are duplicates. Like people sending to multiple slush piles, but still like tens of millions of manuscripts getting sent out to the slush pile. I don't know how many people are actually querying agents, but I assume it's pretty high as well that, you know, also maybe take heart like there's a way to read this of if you've been querying a book for a long time or shopping something and it feels like you're doomed. Like you, you might be like the Numbers work against everyone and anybody getting a book deal when the odds are so relatively bad for just about everybody. Is it like it's a small miracle that anyone, whoever it is, that gets a book deal? You really came out against the odds. Most people are in the no camp almost all the time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, that's right. The other thing I like that Laura does here is towards the end, she's not then selling some super system subscription service to beat the odds. Like she says at the end, like I don't have a good answer for you. Except that a, you know, a clear eyed vision of the odds of just throwing your hat in the ring should probably engender some other kind of action for most people rather than just sort of, you know, work on your craft, do some other things, make connections, you know, go to conferences, email people. Like this stuff adds up and it matters. I was kind of interested just in the, the chart of the genre grid that she gives. You know, the young adult category, there's a lot of warmer colors. The warmer colors meaning there's more interest especially around in genre too. There's one that I thought was underrated or at least relative to how good I think it is. And the ability is upmarket. Speculative is not as warm as I think it should be. If I were an agent, if I were an agent and I'm looking for some holes in the market where I could go, I think I might draft up market speculative. There are some yellows and some middle oranges, but there's awful lot of greens in there that I think there's actually more for there. And I also think westerns might be underrated. Now just straight up category westerns, but look at western, it's green. I think if you write a good western and maybe it's got a twist on it, I think you can still move units, but that's me.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I think the, I think the. Have a twist on it. Yeah, is the piece there. And speculative, as you were saying, is another way into a lot of those other genres. I think. I think you're onto something here.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The hottest. No, in terms of the highest number that I could find, it looks like young adult. That also is somehow women's fiction. The score of 178 or young adults. A 201 young adult that's also middle grade has a 228. I don't even know how you do that. There may be a little gap in her classification systems, but I thought that was pretty interesting too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And I think young adult women's fiction Might also be capturing the desire to get those romantasy audiences like these are also young adult women's fiction readers become older adult women's fiction readers who power the publishing industry.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But in terms of like the ones that seem to have the biggest heat maps. Just looking at mystery, women's fiction, young adult and thriller. If I just pick the top four, this is eyeballing it. She's helpfully color coded it if you did the math. Cyberpunk. If you've got a cyberpunk novel, you're shopping out there. Tough.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it's a rough scene for cyberpunk.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is not a surprise though it is useful to see. But like bipoc crime, not a lot of people looking for it. Not a lot of people looking for eco fiction, not a lot of people looking for erotica. So anyway, just.

[Tracy Thomas]

Just bipoc crime being low on what agents are looking for. That maps onto something that Jamie Cannabis, who writes our mystery thriller newsletter, talks about all the time, which is that of like main genres of publishing. The mystery thriller, true crime, suspense space has made the least progress in terms of diversity of authors and the diversity of stories being told. And I don't think we have enough hours in the day to try to guess at why that might be. But it seems to be more resistant or more entrenched with like, you know, the same old white guy names that we've been seeing for many years.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Here's another this. I'd never thought about this until seeing this graph. So Laura, congratulations to you. Young adult short story collections. Never even thought about my kids. We could read novels and verses and stuff. But the idea of a young adult short story collection, it only scores a 12 here. And I just say the highest number I'm looking at goes up like the mid-200s.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's never occurred to me.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Must be a tough.

[Unknown]

Me neither.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I couldn't even name you a young adult short story collection.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, if you really want to go. I mean again, like there's Woman Hollering Creek or House on Mango street could maybe be considered short stories. Are those young adult? Like we could get into a whole thing. There's a world in which you.

[Tracy Thomas]

House on Mango street that gets shelved in adult fiction. I'm pretty sure, right?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think. I wonder if today it would be marketed as young adult just because the people, the way people reach run up and down. Anyways, beyond the scope here. Go check this out. Subscribe to her newsletter. It's called TextCrunch, which is a really good name. It's great for someone who analyzes literary data. On that front, hope we didn't spoil any of her goodies she's bringing to her. I don't, I don't know. She probably, she has to have assumed that we were going to read her. I think she substack about the slush pile. Come on.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I think she has so many statistical goodies. Like picking the 10 to bring us is going to be the hard challenge. I don't, I don't think we're going to fall short here.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm going to, we're not going to spend a lot of time on this, but there is a new executive order targeting the Institute of Museum and Library Services. Kelly wrote it up on Monday. Question mark. Yeah, Monday. I'll put it in the show notes too. What it is, what you can do. Kelly, as always, is extremely good about giving context, but also not leaving it at panic mode. There are things at the bottom about how you can speak up in support. There's a petition. Write your senators, call the offices, go to state levels, go to your next public library meeting. Like the shoveling sand piece is hard to remember that it matters, but it does a lot more work than doom scrolling by yourself or, you know, posting on your, you know, sharing on an Instagram story. Someone's doomerism headline. Go do something. It doesn't have to be big. Yeah, go do something with your real meat hands.

[Tracy Thomas]

It connects to a couple of things. Last week, Chuck Schumer had to cancel his book tour because his decision to cross the aisle and keep the government open vote with the Republicans was so unpopular. He said he was having security concerns they were going to delay the tour. I will be surprised if Mr. Schumer ever conducts this book tour. But getting out like we were, people were going to go protest that book tour. And that is why he made the decision to cancel. Call your reps. Similarly, we want to talk a little bit about today. I mean, Today's Thursday the 20th, and we're recording today, Donald Trump is expected to sign an executive order instructing Congress asking Congress to abolish the Department of Education. This, of course, has been one of the big negative headlines and one of the Republican talking points, honestly, since the 1980s. The first time they tried to do this in recent history was in the 1980s. So it's also not new. I got to cover today in books for you this morning. So I wrote a little bit about this. That's also a kind of don't panic, like, this is bad. And There are things to do. The headline, first of all, is that executive orders don't change the law. They don't have any legal standing. An executive order is the president telling the government what he wants it to do. Now, Linda McMahon, the Secretary of Education, has already laid off about half of the staff of the Department of Education. So that's cutting it off at the knees in a really, you know, on the ground, functional sense. But in order to actually eliminate a department that's at the cabinet level, which the Department of Education is, it requires an act of Congress. There's a bill in the House that was introduced in January. It's been stuck in committee since January. Even if they can get it passed to the House with their functional one vote majority, they would have to get a super majority in the Senate, which would require seven Democrats to cross the aisle to vote for destroying the Department of Education, which is highly unlikely. So this is a place to put pressure on your reps if you're, especially if you're represented by Republicans. There is a great app that they also have a website called 5Calls where you put in your address and it's like, here are your representatives, here are their phone numbers, here are scripts you can use. Call them every day. Ask them to protect the Department of Education. Ask them ultimately, if this bill comes to a vote to vote against it, remind them that they work for you, not just for the voters who supported them. Things are hard and bad and we still can take action. It's not over. And if we're. If you've given up because it's hard and bad already, you're helping them win. So let's not cooperate in advance, folks. Action and information are the best antidotes to your political anxiety.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was looking at the bestsellers and Publishers Weekly this morning and I just have one nugget for you. Onyx Storm, the deluxe edition, which is the best selling edition, is selling. It sold 19,000 copies last week. Good week.

[Tracy Thomas]

Good week. Yeah, good week for Onyx Storm, the let them theory.

[Jeff O'Neill]

65,000 copies in hardcover last week.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And careless people did 60,000.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Careless people did 60,000 last week. James did 7,000 last week. Interesting. Interesting. I wonder, is Let Them Theory gonna outsell Onyx Storm this year?

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God, that would be amazing. Mel Robbins would lose her mind.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, here's the thing. I don't. I haven't looked at it and maybe this is a question for Brenna at Circana. I know you need a lot of weeks of beating Onyx storm. Even by 50,000 to catch up from the first two weeks. But it's possible because these books, this kind of book can take on a lot. This could be the Crawdads, Atomic Hobbit. This can happen. This does happen, Rebecca.

[Tracy Thomas]

It can and it can. Especially when something is as highly anticipated as Onyx Storm was. And so much interest has consolidated around the release date. It had a huge first week, thanks mostly to pre orders folks who had slapped their money down six months ago to make sure that they got that book on the day that it came out. And very often when there's that kind of campaign around it, the readers who really want it have got it on day one. And the sales, yeah, the sales can really taper off to a much smaller tale. So I don't know about seeing the Let Them theory catch up to it, but it would be really interesting, honestly. It would be really interesting to see anything catch up or pass or even get close.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean honestly to get even within a, you know, I mean. Sunrise at the Reaping. I'm super curious. The reviews of that have been good so far. Sunrise at the Reaping. I'm very encouraged by that and my sense of the Onyx Storm takeaway is it's kind of mixed on the whole. And yeah, you wonder, you just wonder what's going to happen because the Let Them Theory came out in the end of December, very much pitched as a new year, new you kind of a title which I think is super smart. I actually, and I haven't read this book and I don't know that I will, I know the synopsis but I actually think the message is like people are ready for this message and they'll let them.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I think they're ready. I think it really resonates with the kind of fuck around and find out energy of the year that like somebody else wants to do something and you like it doesn't have to impact. You just let them go do it. Like you don't have to get on board but let them go do it. And Mel Robbins, pretty compelling in the way that she delivers this. Yeah, I think there is a lot of appetite for that right now. And she delivers it in a way that people are receptive to and it's not your typical self help. Like it's not as prescriptive as Atomic Habits which you know, the last kind of self help book that was this big I think and for many be.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Interesting to see because it's a December 24th release. It will play havoc with best selling books of the Year. Right. Because it's front list and whatever. Now on the total book that includes backlist it'll show up. But we talk about the best selling books of 2025, it's going to be awkward to say let them theory is not on it. But for the want of six days, it's like such a fun age on steroids in terms of the sales and how we have to deal with.

[Tracy Thomas]

And also we'll work against it for best books of the year listings. Like not just bestsellers of the year, but best books of the year or.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Even it books like even for closer to home. Like we couldn't have done it because we recorded in mid December and it can't be on this year. And yet yeah, we're stuck in this another world of one of the books of the year, but also totally is not one of the books of the year. Yeah, this is dumb. Can we do something? Who can we call about this?

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean I think they probably did this. So it was out and fresh like when people got their New Year's resolution. Is it gonna be a Tuesday?

[Jeff O'Neill]

You needed to have it out that day for, for January 1st because the Tuesday comes too late.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right, but why not earlier in December or in like the second week of January?

[Jeff O'Neill]

But even two weeks earlier we wouldn't have known we weren't going to know what it was going to do. It doesn't help us.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it's why don't they think about.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Our stupid games that mean nothing when planning these multi million dollar imprint making fortune changing books. Why don't they think about my spreadsheets?

[Tracy Thomas]

Or even just like maybe they know that a book like that is going to sell pretty well and they want to position it to sell well, but that it's less likely to make. It's like, you know, a self helpy kind of thing is just less likely to make any of the the mainstream like marquee best books of the year list. So like if you don't think that you're sacrificing a spot on the New York Times list or the Publisher's Weekly list by putting it out at the end of December instead of early January for the following year, just get it out where people can buy it. Because the people want to buy it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Look, they want to sell more books and if they think they'll sell 1% more books by doing this versus January 8th or November 14th, they will do it and they probably should. It just makes our job as sort of, I would say the de facto chroniclers of all literary importance. Literary, important. History just makes a little more difficult.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm really glad to know that that's the responsibility on our shoulders.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I didn't tell you, but they sent us a plaque and we've got some.

[Tracy Thomas]

Cool.

[Jeff O'Neill]

They voted and yeah, okay, let's do another sponsor break.

[Tracy Thomas]

This episode is sponsored by the Rag Picker King by Cassandra Clare. Stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook edition provided by our sponsors at Penguin Random House. Audio in the epic follow up to the New York Times bestseller Sword Catcher, praised by George R.R. martin as, quote, everything I look for in fantasy, Lynn and Kell must chart a perilous course between love and lies. Kell Saren, body double to Connor, crown prince of the dazzling city of Castellane, is caught between two worlds. In order to protect his beloved prince, Kell must find the culprits responsible for a massacre at the royal palace, and the only clues are held by the Ragpicker King, the notorious criminal who rules Castellane's underworld. The trail Kell follows leads back to the hill, where, among decadent nobles and glittering parties, a dark conspiracy to destroy the royal family has taken hold. A conspiracy headed up by the monstrous Ardell Grimont, the man engaged to marry the woman Kell adores. Again, stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook edition of the Ragpicker King by Cassandra Clare. Available now. Wherever books and audiobooks are, any vehicle can take you places. But why stop there? The Alfa Romeo Tonale combines luxurious Italian design and electrifying performance to make every mile a masterpiece and every arrival unforgettable. When precision meets instinct and power moves with purpose, you never have to stay in a lane. Experience a world without limits in the Alfa Romeo Tonale Plug In Hybrid Grid. Tap the banner to learn more. Alfa Romeo is a registered trademark of FCA Group Marketing SpA used with permission.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I've only got a couple books under my belt for Frontless Foyer this week and they're books that are coming out soon in first edition. So I've got a different tact for you about what I'd like to talk to you about with my my reading. Before that, let's talk about Thriftbooks. Rebecca, why should people check out thriftbooks.com? why do you think they should check.

[Tracy Thomas]

Out thriftbooks.com has millions of new and used titles. It's basically an endless selection of not just books, but video music, gimmick games, and the prices are stellar. You can get a childhood classic or pick up new Undiscovered adventures. There is something for everybody and every budget. And they have a Thriftbooks rewards program where every purchase gets you closer to free book rewards. I know that you have gotten some free books thanks to your Thriftbooks purchasing habits. I'm working my way up there as well. Their selection is 19 million titles that you can browse. You can also check out new and used DVDs and Blu Rays. So new releases, out of print, childhood faves, everything in between. If you're in the US you get free shipping on orders of $15 or more. The books are delivered right to your door. In my experience, it's on about the same timeline as ordering from any other retailer. So when Tom Robbins died and I ordered, I think I ordered even Cowgirls get the Blues, which I have not read yet, but I will. It came in a couple of days and everybody was trying to order Tom Robbins books that day. But Thriftbooks has a big stack of used books that were ready and available. So you can go to thriftbooks.com BRpodcast to see a running list of all the titles that we've talked about here on the show. They've been sponsoring frontlist foyer for quite a while now. And get your purchasing on. Buy your books from Thriftbooks. They're great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So this is a transition out of Thriftbooks into frontless foyer. So I've got Rowan's frontless foyer to talk about today just a little bit.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I'm very excited because I got a preview of this on the phone yesterday.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So coming out of most recommendable books of the year, I didn't realize I'd be hand selling my own children the books. That didn't occur to me. But both of my kids are. They're tweens. They're like a median age of 13, working on a median age of like 35 in some ways and also 6 years old at the same time.

[Tracy Thomas]

The kind of readers that we were as teenagers.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think now Rowan is ahead of me as a reader in terms of reading up because. Because she tore through Beauty Land this week and she was reading at every available moment and I hadn't thought about it. She was asking for more young adult contemporary sort of coming of age novels. She did, you know, she likes fantasy, likes whatever. But like about being a kid, you know, about being a tween and Beauty Land is sort of that. I mean, you go past that, but you start out as a tween and it's a lot like that. And she loved the book she loved. She adored the book. She's so glad I couldn't be. I mean, what else do I want out of my kids reading experience? So anyway, there's that. But also related to thrift books. She's now reading everything. I never told you one of your picks.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And because she's like she wants to keep on the train. I was like, what's a mystery? It's kind of scary. She loves it. And you can get a like new hardcover, I'm assuming remaindered on Thrift Books for 5.99. 5.99. Excellent. That would be a good sponsored bit. Maybe we'll have to come that in the future. Like. Like one of our lists are most recommendable or power ranking of a. Like what's the cheapest basket of books? You can buy them all for 79.99 on Thriftbooks right now.

[Tracy Thomas]

Great. I bet we could do that for the classics. You actually need to read that. We're about to record for Patreon too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So like the spread for the hardcovers. This is real nerd stuff. This is sponsored by Thriftbooks, but also not. They did not make it clear. They did not ask me to do what I'm about to do here.

[Tracy Thomas]

No one would.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So the hard part, I'm just doing this for kicks. I'm just doing this for fun because this is what I like. There are three. Well, there's more than three condition rankings for everything. I never told you the like new is 599, the very good is 579 and the good is 519 and acceptable is 499. I would like to know the person that chooses the very good versus the like new for 20 cents difference.

[Tracy Thomas]

Mm.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I guess if you're super cost conscious, but then you don't, you drop down to good for 60 cent savings. I don't know about condition rankings. Maybe people here are real nerds about this. Like yeah, boy, oh boy. Once you get past very good, it's all kind of the same. But. But for a dollar for me. But I don't know, maybe I'm. Maybe I'm buying. It seems bulk. But if I'm buying for me, I'm. I'm spending the dollar to go from acceptable to like new at this level.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think for me it depends on what I would. What, why I'm getting the book, which is me. I have different use cases than like we both have different use cases than civilian readers. Right. But.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's either I either want like new or I don't care like, it either needs to be fresh or I don't care if it's like a little bit banged up because I'm gonna make notes in it. I'm gonna dog ear things if it's something that I'm reading for the show but that I don't think I'm going to want to keep. You know, save the dollar, buy the banged up one, leave the, like, new one for somebody else who wants it. But I would be very interested in the people who chose those middle ones.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's. You're really combing with a very fine brush at that point. I thought this. I'm also surprised. I didn't think about this either. They changed the COVID for the paperback. I thought it sold well enough in hardcover, but they changed it it to paperback anyway. This one of these things, you know.

[Tracy Thomas]

They might have just been juicing it. It did do very well.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Maybe I saw splinters. They changed Leslie Jameson. They changed it. And there was another one. They changed. Who was I talking to? Oh, when I. Meaning at knoff. Double day. Boy, I'm really off the rails here. We do have time. Oh, yeah, we got plenty of time. I was talking to someone off double day because the paperback of Lessons in Chemistry is coming out in, like, 10 days.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think it's April 1st, finally. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And they changed the coverage.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. It's not always a sign that the hardcover struggled.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And this is something I don't mind. I don't think Liberty would mind me saying that. She read this early and was really on it. She's like, I think the COVID is. It's not bad. It's just doing it a disservice to the books and the reader because it seems much more. The book is darker than that cover. Makes it seem like this is. This book is not the Devil Wears Prada. And that's no shade at the Devil is Prada. But like, there's some darker elements that would never happen in a book like that.

[Tracy Thomas]

That.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And it's the COVID look.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sexual assault in the Devil Wears product.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, you said it, not me. Yeah. Or two of them.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And so people should know.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, people should know. And I like Lessons in Chemistry. But I remember when we talked about. It's like, whoa, this is. There's some stuff going on here that's outside of the realm of like, Chiclet is historically. And I'm using that in this descriptive. I. I like chick look myself, typically speaking, but it is doing something a little different. And the cartoon blonde ponytail with, like, a pencil in her hair cartoon didn't really capture that. There's something else going. I'm not. I don't know. The paperback gets all the way there, but it's certainly closer towards, like, something else. I don't know if you've seen it or not.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it's a tough. I haven't seen it, but that's a tough book. Like, recommendations that go back and forth between us. I assume we each forget most of the things the other one says about a book. But I remember that you had read Lessons in Chemistry before I got to it, and I was like, getting on a plane and asking, do you think I would like this? And you're like, yeah, but I think you would. But I don't know how to tell you what this book is.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, it's not straight ahead literary fiction. It's also not like light and fluffy, as you were saying, like Chiclet or women's fiction there. It's really hard to describe what it feels like to read Lessons in Chemistry and some of the surprising things that happen. And I think that has to be a huge challenge for book designers as well. Like, if we, who get paid to talk about books all the time can't figure out really how to tell somebody what that experience is, like, how are you going to try to translate it into one image?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. So if you're out there and you're interested, go. Go Google the paperback edition of Lessons in Chemistry, which I think takes a cue from the English edition. Anyway, it's. I find this really fascinating. I don't know why. Can we get Laura? Maybe Laura and Brenna can help us. Me, understand things.

[Tracy Thomas]

Interesting.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, now you do your frontless foyer, and then I've got a. I've got some questions for you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. So I read Hunchback by Sal. It's 112 pages, Jeff. You love to see it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You love to see it.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I. I don't know when this came on my radar. Like, a galley. I've had a digital galley of it for months, so it must have been when I was doing seasonal research or something that I thought, that looks interesting. I'll just download a galley. Then I saw a starred review of it in pw and then I saw an interesting review of it in the Times. And it was one of those reviews that was like, this is really interesting. But also, I have no idea what they're trying to allude to without actually, actually spoiling it. Like, let me just get in there and find out. So it's about a woman who is disabled. She was born with a condition where she has her. There's issues that have affected like her posture, her ability to move her body and hold it in space, but also really significantly, her ability to breathe. So she uses a ventilator. She spends most of her time in bed. And she's in her early 40s. She's been indoors for like the last 20 years. Her parents were very wealthy. They were able to set her up with great care at a group home. And so she has not had any reason to go out into the wider world and risk her health, but also deal with the difficulties that would come with trying to navigate, you know, the space and other people in the body that she has. So she's living this very inside and interior life. She works as a freelance writer doing all kinds of things. She's Japanese and she is writing, like, sometimes she writes porn stories under a pseudonym from a male perspective because that's the thing that the website she writes for needed that week. Sometimes it's, you know, like top 10 pickup spots in this city that she's never been to. She's just, you know, she's writing SEO content. And like this character's two paragraph description of how websites use SEO content is just very sharp for anyone who also has ever written SEO focused content. But she's realizing now, I guess in middle age that she. There are some experiences about being a woman that she wishes to have had. She's never had sex. She knows that she could not bear a child, but she wants to have the experience of being pregnant. And she has these Twitter accounts under pseudonyms with like no followers. So she tweets stuff into the void that she thinks about. And one of the things that she tweets is like, I would like to have the experience of being pregnant and having an abortion. Some things happen. And it turns out that a person, a man who works at the facility where she lives, reads her tweets and has figured out that it's her.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No.

[Tracy Thomas]

And he's like, maybe me. Maybe you want me to help you solve your problem.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Come on. Really? Huh? Oh boy.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I don't want to spoil where it goes from there. It was a ride. Like it's 112 pages. So I read it in like an hour and a half. The writing is just fantastic. It's really visceral. She goes from talking about what it's like to be in her body, to be having to like suction mucus out of her ventilator, to talking about the privilege that she knows. Like, the relative privilege that she lives with as a wealthy person who has the disabilities that she has to her fantasies. Like, and it just sort of all. It's all in the mix. Sometimes you're reading the text of the, like, erotica that she's written for this website. It felt to me kind of like a cousin of rejection by Tony Tulamude from last year. Like, those characters are both people who are sort of on the outside of society in a lot of ways and are craving contact and sexual experience. This character is not, like, bitter about it in the way that Tulamudi's characters were Tula Tumoudi. But it was. I kind of can't explain it. I understand now. While the reviews were like, what do we even say about this? And then it has this kind of fever dream of an ending that I had to read four times. Like, I had to read the last paragraph like, four times to be like, okay, I think I know what's happening here. But just a kind of voice that I hadn't read before. And it was really captivating.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Fascinating. So I'm getting ready to go to Hawaii.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. Tell me what's on the stack.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I was going to say I'd like to play a game with you and the listeners in which I tell you the books I'm taking with me either digitally or physically. And then people can email, you can make your guess which, if any of these do I actually read? Would you like to hear them?

[Tracy Thomas]

I would love to hear the lineup. If you don't read any of these, is it because something else catches your eye or you just get switched?

[Jeff O'Neill]

To put my cards on the table, I'm going to take a couple of print books and I'll tell you what they are because that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And then I will have my phone and my Kindle. Okay, I am trying to read. I've got some Kindle credits and a few things I have on Kindle, But I am making the switch to bookshop for my E reading experience on my iPad. But I'm not taking my iPad. So this is gonna be by my last hurrah with my Kindle until the next Kindle comes out, because that's how I work. But the wide bookish world is available. They've got Internet in Hawaii. Did you know that?

[Tracy Thomas]

Excellent. I did know that. And I will tell you. I've made the switch to bookshop for my E Reading since I read on my iPad. And it's terrific.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's terrific. Yeah. Congratulations to them. All right. So here are the two that I'm going to have in print. I have the Dream Hotel in print.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay?

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I have Wild darkshore by Charlotte McConaughey in print. And they will be in my bag. I can't give you historical data on matriculation rates on print books I take with me on vacation if that data is not available. Actually, it's paywall. You have to have a Bloomberg terminal to get.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't have the paywall. Access to the Bloomberg terminal.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No. $1,000 a month. It's a professional.

[Tracy Thomas]

Don't you know who I am?

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's professional grade. Okay, so those are two. I would print what I either already have on Kindle or I'm thinking about buying and knowing my Kindle library. You should not distinguish between those two things of being indicator whether it's something. And some of these are review copies too. There's Deep Cuts, the Holly Brickley, Brinkley. I can't remember if there's an N in there or not.

[Tracy Thomas]

There is not.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I've got Theft, which is the new Abdul Raza Gurna novel, winner of the Nobel Prize. He's got a new book out, got a great review in the Times. I've got the new Linda Holmes that I cannot remember the name of it to save my goddamn life. What's the name of the new Linda Holmes? This back after this. Thank you very much. I. I'm. I don't know if this will turn into a print copy because I'm thinking about it. I think we're going to make a family pals trip in a. In anticipation of going to Hawaii. I'm really looking at sunrise at the reaping in hardcover.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, I'm looking at that. I said Wild Dark Shore already. I've got a print copy of Women's Hotel by Daniel Levery that I've been meaning to read. It's not in my suitcase. It may. It could go in there. The new Kristin Arnett book, which I also cannot remember the name of. What's that?

[Tracy Thomas]

Stop me if you've heard this one before.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Stop me if you heard this one. And then lastly, O Sinners by Nicole Cuffy. I've got an early copy that the book just came out today, but it's. It's a literary fiction short. Three interweaving stories about this person who comes back from the Iraq war, Gulf War, I think, and then decides to. No, a journalist decides to join a cult and to see what the deal is. And I'm sure it's fine. He gets A good. He gets a good 2,000 words out of it and everyone's fine. So those are. Those are my candidates. Would you like to talk through?

[Tracy Thomas]

Sure.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What you understand me to do here in the next 10 to 12 days.

[Tracy Thomas]

Selfishly, I want you to read O Sinners, because I want to screen it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Was that on your list at all? You were. You're kind of circling.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, that wasn't on my radar.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That sounds interesting.

[Tracy Thomas]

Interesting. I mean, some of these feel more beachy to me than others. Like, the Dream Hotel is gripping. So that's a good travel.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I tend not to care about. I mean, I really.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. And that was going to be my next sentence is that I also know this doesn't matter.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, I was wrong about OS. That's 464 pages. I had it written down at 264. That changes the Chunky Boy. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Oh Sinners is not happening.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Not happening. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Nicole.

[Tracy Thomas]

Maybe later, but not happening on the beach. I have heard you express the most interest in Deep Cuts and Wild Dark Shore, and I know you have enjoyed Linda Holmes in the past. And I also know that Abdul Razat Gurna was like, your number one most anticipated. Yeah. This is like the book that you have been looking forward to this year. So I'm going theft as my number one draft pick for Jeff's vacation reading. I don't know that you read it first, but I think it's the most.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Likely to get to have gotten through the whole way.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I think that's on this trip. And then I think you need a vibe shift, so you go to, like, either Deep Cuts or Linda Holmes and then maybe the Dream Hotel. How many books will you read on a week?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Great question. Well, we have long flights, which I usually matriculate into. Jeff. Jeff's Repertory theater.

[Tracy Thomas]

Cannot wait to hear about the deranged lineup of movies from your long flights. It's now one of my favorite bits.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it's going to be Eraserhead in Bambi. It's going to be something like that. I typically don't read on. On the flights because that's when I do my. But our Hawaii, our last time we're in Hawaii, our daily schedules look like this. We would go snorkel in the morning, come back to the place, have lunch, you know, kind of wait out the heat of the day reading on the balcony, and then we go back out and jump in the waves or boogie board or something in the. In the late afternoon and evening during sunset. So I get up early, so I've got a couple hours in the morning, and then we've got, you know, a few hours so I can get a lot done. I could read six of these. It's not impossible that I could read six.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. That's about where I was headed. Like, if I'm just. If my job is just beach for a week, I can do about a book. A day at the beach. Yeah. So you might get through a bunch of them. I know. I mean, it'd be interesting if Sunrise at the Reaping became like, everybody in the family reads it because they all like congregating movies. Okay. And as of our event at Powell's, though, the Martian was the only book that everybody in the family had read independently. Right. So that would be interesting. Kristen Arnett's really fun and funny. Like, maybe near the end of vacation. You want that kind of silly, smart, Florida woman like, fiasco man vibe.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Here's the thing. I'm gonna read two of these or all of them, because if I get on a roll, I will buzz through these like. Like a saw through soft wood. If I'm not in the mood, I'll be like, yeah, I'm gonna play cards and stare into the void.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right? Yeah. And I've like, I know. I've had beach trips that were like that, where it's like, oh, no, books are getting read. I'm just gonna watch the sun for seven hours today, like, think some thoughts and drink some fruity things. And we know that, you know, nobody loves a pink beverage more than Jeff O'Neill does.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Really? I really do. Anyway, so that's.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You can guess.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm guessing that at least two will get read. You're gonna read that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

If you're gonna play this game, you can leave a comment on the Patreon or email pod. Just pick the two you think I'm most likely to have read. Okay, Just. If people want to play along, there's no prize here, just glory Internet.

[Tracy Thomas]

Check the comments and just be a contrarian.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, no, I would never. I would never. All right, podcast book riot.com bookriot.com Listen, there's also in the show notes in your podcast [e-mail]. listen, there's the link to go find a place to enter and sign up to win a book box from Aardvark. Please do go check out first edition. I promise you, you will not be sorry to listen to Stephen Graham Jones talk about his reading life. I cannot promise you will be sorry you won't be sorry to read a book about phosphorus, but I really don't think you will be if you like nonfiction at all. Rebecca, we'll talk to you later.

[Tracy Thomas]

Have a good one, y'all. Thanks so much for listening today. We hope you'll enjoy this excerpt from the audiobook edition of the Ragpicker King by Cassandra Clare, provided by our sponsors at Penguin Random House.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Audio Prologue Artau Grammont, heir to the tea charter of Castellane, had never much liked the ocean. It was the source of his wealth, of course. The millions of crowns worth of tea and coffee that were carried in sleek ships across the seas to the Castellani port had made his family richer than gods. In theory, he appreciated the convenience of the sea. In actuality, he found it flat, featureless, and dull. Then again, Gramont found most things dull. People tended to be dull and generally limited in their thinking. Most parties were dull. Being the son of a charter holder in Castellane with money but no real power, had been equally dull. And when he tried to make life more interesting, he'd been exiled, sent off by his parents to oversee the tea business in foreign climes that had been exceedingly dull. Now, however, things were starting to get interesting. With his father dead, he had inherited the tea charter and been recalled to Castellane. His exile ended, he'd booked passage on the next ship leaving Taprobana Harbour, one of Laurent Aden's galleons, which at the moment was carrying a shipment of teakwood to Castellane. The ship had six tiny passenger cabins up near the stern, though the captain's vast quarters hogged all the windows. Gramont's room was little better than a closet, with a berth built into the wall and a table bolted to the floor to prevent it from sliding when the ship rolled. Dull, dull, dull. Gramont paced the floor of his cabin fretfully. There was nothing to do on the bloody boat, and his anxiety was building. When he got like this, he often had to do something to make himself feel better. It was a need, like other men felt for food or water. Alas, Laurent Aiden ran a tight ship and had little patience for Athal's preferences. A young stowaway had been discovered last week after they'd left the port in Favar, but at least Arthal had been able to have a little fun with her before Laurent found out about it and had the girl removed from Arthal's quarters post haste. Words had been exchanged that were not particularly polite, and Arthale had been given to understand that if he engaged in any more such business while on the Black Rose, he would be unceremoniously dumped off at the next port, charter or no charter. He did not know what had happened to the girl and did not care. She had gotten blood on his favourite jacket, which had annoyed him, though not as much as being trapped in this cabin was annoying him now. Laurent had told him not to wander the ship, but fuck Laurent. Gramont yanked open the door of his cabin and made his way out into the narrow passage that ran the length of the ship. He plucked a glass windlamp from a nail on the wall. Best if he strode purposefully, he thought, making his way across the ship toward the stairs that led up to the weather deck. A purposeful stride tricked people into thinking you were on important business. He passed the ship's galley where the cook was asleep in a chair, a wooden bucket of half peeled potatoes at his feet. Thank the gods they only had a few days left at sea. Gramont was vilely sick of salt beef, boiled potatoes, and suet. Up on the weather deck the air was clear. The moon hovered close to the horizon, creating a white path that stretched along the water. Rope for the sails lay in neat coils like sleeping snakes. Some might have admired the view the stars picked out across the sky as bright as nail heads, the water like hammered glass. Gramont merely glared at it all. The sea was a barrier between him and Castellane, between him and reclaiming all he had lost in exile. The creak of a board underfoot alerted him to the fact that he was not alone. He turned and for a moment saw nothing. Then she appeared. Shadow evolving out of shadow. The first time he had seen her do this, he'd nearly fallen over with shock. He was more used to her brand of magic now. She wore her assassin's gear. Every bit of her was covered with smooth black fabric. It rendered her faceless, which Gramont found unnerving, despite the fact that he knew perfectly well what she looked like beneath the disguise. I came to congratulate you on your upcoming nuptials, Arthur, she said. Her voice was low and husky. If he hadn't known her gender, he doubted he could have guessed it. I don't suppose there's any point asking you how you got here from the Continent, he replied sourly. Flew on a bat, eh? She chuckled. You are amusingly bitter for a man about to make a very advantageous marriage. He snorted. You know I had my sights set higher than Antonetta Alain. I know your sights were set as high as Angelica of Kutani but her family would never have accepted you. She is royalty, and royal blood demands royal blood to match with. I suppose you would know. She scoffed and sprang lightly to the railing of the ship. She balanced there easily, though the thought of the long drop to the water made Gramont queasy. Don't be sour, Gramont. I do hope you are not having second thoughts about our arrangement. Grammont felt a slight chill run up his spine. He knew she held magic, though he had grown up believing that all but small magics had died with the sundering.