The Pulitzer Drama Was Real and Other Book News PLUS: A Mini-Book Club for RUN FOR THE HILLS by Kevin Wilson

Summary

Book Riot - The Podcast Episode: The Pulitzer Drama Was Real and Other Book News PLUS: A Mini-Book Club for RUN FOR THE HILLS by Kevin Wilson
Release Date: May 12, 2025
Hosts: Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky

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1. Episode Overview

In this episode of Book Riot - The Podcast, hosts Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky delve into recent happenings in the literary world, including the controversial awarding of the 2025 Pulitzer Prize in Fiction, casting decisions influenced by authors' personal views, a new publishing imprint focused on male authors, advancements in AI-driven literary courses, and significant changes in the tech industry affecting book sales. Additionally, the hosts engage in a mini-book club discussion of Kevin Wilson's Run for the Hills.

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2. The 2025 Pulitzer Prize Controversy

The episode opens with a heated discussion about Alexander Alter's article on LoudLit revealing that Percival Everett's novel James won the 2025 Pulitzer Prize in Fiction. The authors explore the dynamics between the Pulitzer jury and the board, questioning whether sexism played a role in the decision-making process.

• Rebecca Schinsky (09:08):
  "We have a Pulitzer Prize winning novel this year. And to me, this is the system working the way that this system is set up to work..."

• Jeff O’Neill (10:19):
  "I think the fly in the ointment of some sort of systemic problem is that James rocks."

Key Points:

• The jury initially recommended three books (Headshot by Rita Bullwinkle, Mice 1961 by Stacey Levine, and The Unicorn Woman by Gail Jones) but the board sought a fourth option, leading to James being selected.
• Discussion on whether the selection was influenced by sexism, given that the initial finalists were women.
• Both hosts express support for James and criticize speculative claims about systemic biases without substantial evidence.

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3. Casting Controversies: John Lithgow and J.K. Rowling

The hosts transition to discussing actor John Lithgow's surprise at J.K. Rowling's anti-trans comments affecting his casting in a new HBO series.

• Jeff O’Neill (20:18):
  "But he's sort of Trying to appear above it all with like, well, of course, no..."

• Rebecca Schinsky (21:44):
  "He's 79. Like he... don't think so."

Key Points:

• John Lithgow was unaware of J.K. Rowling's controversial views during his casting.
• The discussion highlights the broader implications of supporting or separating art from the artist, especially concerning harmful personal opinions.
• The hosts express concerns about the potential long-term impact on the series and public perception.

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4. New Publishing Imprint: Conduit Books

Rebecca introduces Conduit Books, a new imprint founded by John Cook, aimed at promoting male authors.

• Rebecca Schinsky (27:55):
  "My response to this is somewhere between a fart noise and a middle finger."

Key Points:

• The imprint seeks to address the perceived imbalance in publishing, where female authors receive more attention.
• The hosts critique the premise, arguing that the focus should be on merit rather than correcting gender imbalances through selective publishing.
• Discussion on the publishing industry's current demographic trends, highlighting that editorial roles are predominantly held by women.

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5. AI in Literature: BBC's Maestro Series

Jeff and Rebecca discuss the BBC's Maestro series, which offers an AI-driven Agatha Christie writing course featuring a Christie impersonator.

• Jeff O’Neill (32:43):
  "This is the AI era version of... I've been to the hall of Presidents at Disney World and I have seen the robot of Abraham Lincoln deliver the Gettysburg Address."

• Rebecca Schinsky (34:28):
  "This is really unfortunate... She's not a victim in this case."

Key Points:

• The hosts express skepticism about the creativity and authenticity of AI-driven literary courses.
• Concerns are raised about the ethical implications of using deceased authors' likenesses without consent.
• The discussion touches on broader issues of AI in content creation and the preservation of authorial intent.

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6. Tech Industry News: European Court Ruling on App Purchases

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to a groundbreaking European court ruling that allows apps to include buttons directing users to third-party purchase platforms, challenging Apple's 30% commission model.

• Jeff O’Neill (36:25):
  "Andy Hunter is thrilled today... there's not going to be a lot of coverage anywhere."

• Rebecca Schinsky (37:11):
  "It's a game changer for folks who read in the Kindle app on any of their devices."

Key Points:

• The ruling paves the way for apps like Bookshop to offer direct purchase options, bypassing Apple's fees.
• This change is anticipated to disrupt Apple's dominance in digital sales, benefiting independent bookstores and alternative platforms.
• The hosts discuss potential expansions and the trickle-down effect this ruling may have on other online retailers.

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7. Recent Readings and Discussions

a. Girls Girls Girls by Sophie Gilbert

• Rebecca Schinsky:
  Explores how pervasive media and entertainment have influenced societal perceptions of women, tracing the impact from the 90s to the present.
• Jeff O’Neill:
  Reflects on his experiences growing up in the 90s and the shift from feminist movements to more commercialized female consumerism.

b. Moral Ambition by Rutger Bregman

• Rebecca Schinsky:
  Discusses the book's call for individuals to pursue morally significant work over superficial or exploitative jobs.
• Jeff O’Neill:
  Expresses frustration with the book's idealism but acknowledges the useful frameworks it provides for personal development.

Quotes:

• Rebecca Schinsky (38:43):
  "It felt like really an academic person be like, yeah, all of that was really messed up."

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8. Mini-Book Club: Run for the Hills by Kevin Wilson

The episode culminates with an in-depth discussion of Kevin Wilson's latest novel, Run for the Hills.

• Jeff O’Neill (58:14):
  "Run for the Hills is out now... it's a road trip story with deeper familial themes."

• Rebecca Schinsky (67:29):
  "I liked this, but I didn't love it... it felt like this is the least zany to me."

Key Points:

• Premise: Four siblings, all having never met before, embark on a cross-country journey to uncover the truth about their missing father, a serial lever.
• Discussion Highlights:
  • Character Development: The hosts critique the book for its lack of depth and dramatic tension, feeling it deviates from Wilson's typically zany and emotionally intricate storytelling.
  • Narrative Structure: The linear and surface-level storytelling failed to engage the hosts as effectively as Wilson’s previous works.
  • Adaptability: Despite their critiques, the hosts acknowledge the book's potential for adaptation into a compelling television series, albeit with necessary enhancements.

Quotes:

• Jeff O’Neill (78:32):
  "The whole thing just goes down a little too easy... It felt like it was written by a guy named Kevin Wilson, not Kevin the Lumberjack Wilson."

• Rebecca Schinsky (77:05):
  "This is about as a happy ending as you could have reasonably expected when the book started."

Overall Sentiment: While appreciating Run for the Hills as an entertaining read, both hosts felt it lacked the emotional and narrative complexity that characterizes Kevin Wilson's best works. They expressed hope that this is an isolated case within Wilson's oeuvre.

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9. Concluding Remarks

Jeff and Rebecca wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to explore the discussed topics, offering book recommendations, and promoting their Patreon for exclusive content. They maintain an engaging and candid dialogue, reflecting both their passion for literature and their critical perspectives on recent developments in the literary and tech industries.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jeff O’Neill (01:05):
  "By the time you're hearing this tomorrow... I'm going with a cadre of 8th graders on a week-long field trip."

• Rebecca Schinsky (03:04):
  "But at least we're going to have a good time."

• Jeff O’Neill (85:35):
  "Sam, you're ridiculous and men's rights is nothing."

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Listen to the full episode for an engaging exploration of contemporary literary issues and an honest critique of Kevin Wilson's latest novel!

Transcript

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[Jeff O'Neill]

This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Jeff o' Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Half length news show Today in the back half of the show, Sharifah is going to join us to talk about the new book by Kevin the Lumberjack Wilson called Run for the Hills which is out almost now. By the time you're hearing this tomorrow, by the time this is released, I'm going to be out for a little while. I'm going with a cadre of 8th graders on a week long field trip and I hope to come back with between seven to nine fingers and toes by the time we get to the end of it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I just hope to get a few good texts in between.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it's I went last year for the schools and it was a rich experience and apparently I'm a glutton for punishment. We're doing it again, but looking forward to that. I'll be out. Vanessa will be joining you. Yes, we have. Let's see what's on the oh on the Patreon right now. The Patreon right now you can hear the summer release draft that Rebecca and I did. And then next week are we publishing the draft that we're doing with Laura and Sharifah tomorrow? Does that coming out?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That'll be in the main feed next week. Main feed next week we are creating a book fantasy league with Sharifah and Laura McGrath. The draft two drafts happening. So drafting for that fantasy league is going to be in the main feed on Wednesday. As you're hearing this just a couple days after this and Then at the end of the week we will have in the Patreon feed the Jeff Kaur books of May, which is the massive list of books that Jeff was interested in but did not talk about on first edition or in our prep for the IT books of May. We had a good time doing that. So it's a massive list of titles. And if you like, I'll say this again on Wednesday, but if you like what you hear with the fantasy book leagues, the follow up episodes to those are gonna live in the Patreon feed, but we're dropping that first one here in the main feed.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I got the fourth pick in that draft which did. We have WaterhouseCoopers monitor that process.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Can you show me.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Can you give me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I use random.org and I put names in and I said these are four participants and it gave us an order. I got third in this, so it's not working out great for me either.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Sharifa got one and I'm not going to get my top three. And I think it's a three per. I think it's a three book at the top. I get four and five because Snake draft. I'm very upset about this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I know you know the. But there are open questions like you and I know what each other are kind of thinking because we've done the draft for our book basket. So we've talked a lot about the books coming up this next season. I have no idea what Laura's. I'm really worried about Laura's method for choosing is. So I really don't know like what the competition is around the books that you and I think are like the, the first couple to try to snag. And I haven't talked to Sharifah about it at all. So she, she remains a mystery too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

When I saw I got fourth, my, my ambition went from maybe trying to win to not getting embarrassed because there's a world in which Laura is doing analysis of data and like metadata and all this stuff and we're just gonna get completely.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's the best for my Midwestern hospitality soul that our guest got first in the random thing. And I did send you all the screenshot of like here was the output from random.org right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But not falsifiable at all. Screenshots with just black and white text.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I mean I've got time watermarks.

[Jeff O'Neill]

From the CIA showing they're true.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But I don't love it that the guest we're being so hospitable to is a statistician who has access to lots of data and is probably thinking about this more analytically than we are. Like we really might get our butts handed to us, but at least we're going to have a good time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. So I'm, I'm, I'm generally excited for the draft. I'm really looking forward to it. And you have a really wonderful spreadsheet with the formulas all built in. Maybe I can. Maybe. Well, damn it, between you and Treef and Laura, I don't think I'm going to be the one that out logs the data. Damn it. Sometimes that helps me as I'll actually.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Do the whole thing. I mean, I think we should save most of this for Wednesday. But I think that like it's very possible that a lot of points get scored on things that are surprise nominations for awards. There's not actually that much value that you can wring out of something that's just going to be popular in the way that we've set up the draft. Like you've got to have critical acclaim to some degree as well. And that's, you have to have some, a couple components of it, bookiness to really be worth a lot of points in this thing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yep.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, that's the game. If we did it right, that should be the case. All right, what's coming up next? But after our first sponsor break, we'll get to the news.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Sharifah Williams]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

Alexander Alter should not surprisingly had the had the definitive piece about the awarding of the 2025 Pulitzer Prize in Fiction to James by personal Everett, largely confirming the piece that was written on Lithub by oh I should have had this tab open. That's bad podcasting Drew Broussard, who is a bookseller who who saw that exactly right it sounds like and mostly I have some quibbles. So what are you well okay, not exactly right but got but sniffed the story and indeed there was there was a there was something in the oven cooking around the story. So what were the details here? What what blew your mind about the details?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know, I don't think anything blew my mind. This is exactly what we were speculating what Drew Bessard speculated happened, that the jury of five people gave the top three picks to the Pulitzer board and that they weren't satisfied that any of those should have won. That was Headshot by rita Bullwinkle, mice 1961 by Stacey Levine and the Unicorn Woman by Gail Jones. And board asked for a fourth book to consider. The fourth book that the jury gave them was James. And the Pulitzer board selected that and that's the winner. And we have a Pulitzer Prize winning novel this year. And to me, this is the system working the way that this system is set up to work that if the jury recommends titles that aren't satisfying to the board, the board has a way to still award a book. Because as we all know, I am still salty about no book having one in 2012. We don't know did they ask for a fourth one then and that one didn't work out or what happened. But a book should win these awards. These awards are meaningful for authors careers and for bringing, you know, attention to the world of literature. We need all of that that we can get. And I think this makes all the sense in the world as well.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it sounds like the system working as operated no one went on the record among the how the. The judges versus the board. Right. Or the jury versus the board. None of the jury members went on the record about their feelings about this. I can only imagine if you did all this work and you brought three bottles of wine to the dinner party and everyone's like, you know what? I'm really in the mood for a margarita. Even as much as I might like a margarita, I might be a little torqued off because Merv Merv's. Did you read Instagram post Alexandra Alter link to no who in saying congratulations the winner she was on the board basically nagged the entire publishing industry at the same time. So I'm not sure, I'm not sure that went great. You know, I think this is a good decision. Is it the right decision? Who knows? Because. And I can't go head to head at bookstar like I said on the last episode because I haven't read all.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We haven't read the other ones.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think all three of the finalists are. Should be thrilled to be finalists for the Pulitzer Prize. And the author of mice 1961, whose name escapes me right now, Stacey Levine, was extremely gracious in her quote that she gave to Alexander Alter because one of the suppositions Broussard made was about this is about sexism somehow because the three finalists that apparently the initial board offered up to the. Sorry, the jury offered up to the board were all women. And that's. That's an accusation I might be amenable to. But knowing how the Pulitzer has worked, looking at the jury and the board, I don't have a lot of tape on that. Rebecca, I don't know where are you on this, at the gender politics of what may or may not have happened here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that you can bring in a. This is about sexism. If the, if most of the other things about the books are equal. And I've read James and I have read Headshot, I've not read my 1961 or the unicorn Woman, but I can tell you that James and Headshot do not exist in the same universe of literary quality. If that's true for my for mice, 1961 and the unicorn Woman as well, that in many readers opinions maybe those books are not as good or as deserving of an award as James is, then we're talking about James was just a better book here. Having not read them, I can't fully weigh in there. I will say the comments section of Lit Hub, like fully devolves into every comment section on the Internet ever on this post, including someone being like, well, if you don't believe that this was sexism, you should just straight out say that you hate women and someone else. And someone else saying this whole thread is why liberals don't win elections anymore.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I'm sure everything went well. Like, open up the comments on br.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You've done it all here. I think that that was a, a cheap piece of speculation that looks like clickbait in Broussard's piece. And the other piece of speculation that he put into the piece was this was a chance for the Pulitzer jury and board to like do something brave and weird and they should have done the brave weird thing, the award to one of these books from smaller presses that have less visibility. But that's not what this award is about. Like, this award is not about bring visibility to something that has not had visibility. And we've talked before. I think we agree that the ideal situation with book awards is that something wins it that is good and that people like and that you can then be excited about. And it really does bring some additional energy. Like this happened with Demon Copperhead. It happened when in the Heaven and Earth grocery store was, you know, flying off of shelves and also winning a lot of awards. That is great for the world of books and reading. What happened with James is great for the world of books and reading that this book is excellent and a lot of people read it and they want to talk about it. And like any kind of grousing around award committees that exist to award things that are just supposed to be great have some unspoken duty to highlight other things or to highlight unsung titles, like, that's not what this is. Other awards exist for that. And like best of lists do this. You know, Amazon did this last year when James was the top of everybody's list. Amazon picked a different number one book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Of the year, Boys of Riverside.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't think it like panned out super well for them. I don't think they suffered for it. But like, it definitely seemed to be a move, like a kind of statement. And they can do that. You can do that. But I don't think there's any arguing really against the accomplishment that is James. And to try to say that a book that is that accomplished should not receive an award simply because it has received other awards and these. These other books could benefit from visibility, like, that doesn't hold any water with me.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I mean, this is one thing that happens within the world of books and I'm never quite sure how to calibrate it because if you take as an assumption that all books are under known and saying this book is too famous is kind of a wild statement. Right. Because to a first approximation, still no one has heard of James by Percival Everett in the wider cultural world. Right. Even if you go into Powell's. If I stood at the doorway of Powell's and surveyed the first 50 people that walked in and I said James by personal Everett, and that's all they said. How many of them would even have a glimmer, glimmer of recommendation in their eye? I think probably shockingly few.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Shockingly few. There aren't stacks of it on the corner of the checkout counter in the Hudson News in the airport. Like, this is not recognizable. I'm not going to see four people reading it at the same time when I go to get my hair done.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And one of the pernicious. Many. One of the pernicious. Not the. One of the pernicious outcomes. Byproducts of prejudice is that then you get moments like this where it has. It's always a specter because of course it's a word. It's a worthy question to ask. It's like, well, there's three women and they all got nominated, but then we give it to a dude on its face. Seems pretty poor on the whole, but Then, you know, you want to contextualize that. Well, what if you look at the last four or five winners of the Pulitzer for fiction? Well, half of them are women. More than half. How do you do a share award? I don't know. Barbara Kingsolver, Jane Ann Phillips and Luis Erdrich, Joshua Cohen and Hernandez. Those are like since 2021. I find it a little harder to make that argument of some sort of systemic Pulitzer problem when half of the awardees in the last five years have been women. Certainly if you want to look at the whole board going back to 1911, I don't tell you, I don't think.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You look at the whole board of anything going back to 1911, it's going to be riddled with.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense. I think it's interesting, end of note, that a black woman has not won the Pulitzer Prize since 1988 by one Toni Morrison. Those things are on the all in the air. I think for me, in this particular case, that's not what this is about. Now, if you want to say that Percival Everett and James were awarded this or got the second chance and maybe the award because he and the book were more famous and it was more known by the board and more amenable to it, I am certainly amenable to that. If this was some fourth book, right. That wasn't James, I think that would be an even more interesting story. But I think the fly in the ointment of some sort of systemic problem is that James rocks. That's what it is for me is that James rocks.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. The problem is that James is excellent and deserving of awards. And yeah, I will stay mad about the implication that award committees owe something to any book in particular or owe something to smaller books or to lesser known books. Like, I understand that publishing thrives on scarcity and awards are kind of a zero sum game. But this like, you should do something bold and weird. No, you should do the job that you're given to do.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right. Well, in the bold and I mean, again, I think headshots. I mean, it's not that it's weird, but it's not that weird. But I can certainly. And I've read Gail Jones and again Stacy Levine. I'm imagining I'm just sort of what I've read about it. I can certainly see a scenario in which those books were. Were given by novelists and critics who are like, this is cool.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

To a group of sort of normie intellectuals and like, this is. These are weird. Books, man. I'm not. I don't like these.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

James is bold and weird.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It does undersell how strange James. I agree with you. I think the Everett profile, American fiction, the Huck Finn of it, the double day ness of it, the packaging of it, I think that all belies how weird James.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Like when all the light we cannot see has won the Pulitzer.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Night Watch or even Demon Copper, which, like, all respect, I really like.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is like. This is a win for the people who like their fiction with a touch of weirdness. It's Percival Everett, my dudes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I don't know. We need to. We do need to. We do need to come back to earth on purple. Everett's too normal to win the Pulitzer Prize.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't know how we got here. Never has the sentence been uttered that Percival Everett is for normies.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I know. He is now, I guess overton windowed. And also this is the takeaway.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Let me out.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I want to hold some space for all kinds of complications and feelings about it. I don't want to tell anyone else feel. I'm telling you how I feel. But I have to love that the single greatest recipient of a minor donnybrook about literary prizes Percival Everett himself is at the middle of. Is too amazing for words.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And if you don't know why that's funny, go read Erasure.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Yeah. Does Drew Bussard realize that he's sort of a secondary character in a. A version of a Parish Everett novel? And so are we. And so are all of us talking about this. We're all living in personal Everett's universe and we just have to get used to it. But it's worth a read alter doing the hard work there. And I don't think it's in this piece because I don't have it memorized photographically. But I saw some other commentary that I think this get out of jail free card thing may have been a result of 2012. I think that was a 2012 innovation. Was like we. They were like, we're not giving to any of these books. Like, well, that's it. We have no. There's nothing to do here. And that's it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, no. Because when I was doing my. When I was doing my research. Yeah. About the 2012 one. What? A couple of the jury members were like, they have the option. Like, you have the kill switch where you can say, give us another one. And they just didn't do it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's just a horrible job.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. But maybe they learned their lesson from how. From how mad we all still are about 2012. So they went for the fourth option.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Did you ever do the deep dive on why Hemingway's 1941 Pulitzer was overturned? That's. You can go look that up on your own at some point. That's. That's a good time for everyone. Speaking of good times for everything. Everyone. And you should have known John Lithgow, who has been cast as the, I would say fourth lead. I think Dumbledore is the fourth most important character in the Harry Potter series. Was surprised to learn that there were some who would be uncomfortable with Harry Potter. And J.K. rowling, given her past comments and continuing ongoing comments and championing of anti trans policy. And I think as much as anything vibes, you know, as much as it's about any one particular policy. And she's been outspoken about some, but that she has outspoken and to my opinion and to many others, retrograde and harmful opinions about the status of trans people writ large. Lithgow himself apparently was taken aback. This was not a factor. His agent, no one, his publicist, no one knew this was a thing. Which if we take that as read, is a fascinating snapshot.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean he's 79. Like he.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But you have. Don't they have people for this?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Listen, you would think so. But like he exists in Hollywood. I don't know who John Lithgow's people are. Are the people above the age of 50 in my life, I would bet money are relatively.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm not even holding. I'm actually saying Lithgow. I don't. I would. I'm not surprised he doesn't. But I, I thought the point of when you take a high profile role and you're an agent, you're publicist, manager, like you know, just so you know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Well, maybe they don't think it rises to the level of something to be concerned about. Which this Entertainment Weekly piece that we're going to link to is I think the highest profile coverage that I have seen of J.K. rowling. Like the highest profile mainstream entertainment.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Of any indication that J.K. rowling expresses these anti trans views and so that this might be one thing that we get from this HBO series is some Streisand affecting around how gross J.K. rowling is because the big publications are going to cover this series and this controversy is going to follow her out of like relatively online and often book specific spaces into a more mainstream conversation about it. I'm not really that surprised that Lithgow was unaware.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I am surprised. And you're bad at your job if you let John Lithgow be surprised by this. I honestly am. I think you're bad at your job in Hollywood if you did this. This is something you should know. He himself says it's gonna be the last thing in his obituary. The. I mean, one of the. I mean, one of the speculations, the reason this show exists at all is because Rowling is pissed off at the. The Golden Trio from the early. The original, all being sort of pissed at her, like, coming out against her. So, like, this is a thing that's in the water. Like, this piece is linking to a people piece about Daniel Radcliffe saying she should go jump a stump about this stuff. So, like, it's in the water. This is not.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And it's becoming. She's Streisand affecting herself here. Like, J.K. rowling is in this situation 100% because of comments that J.K. rowling has been made and choices that J.K. rowling has made. And this is really unfortunate. Like, Lithgow was responding actually to a piece that Danica Ellis from Book Riot wrote asking him to reconsider. And somehow this open. Yes, this open letter that Danica wrote to John Lithgow made its way to him. And he finds. He's indeed surprised to find that J.K. rowling holds these ideas and that this is a factor in some people's relationship to the property, to J.K. rowling's work at all. He says that it will not be. It won't sour the role for him. Since then, a couple of the cast, the other people that have been cast, have gone on the record and made, you know, very pro. Trans supportive statements. Rowling has, of course, been asked, like, well, will you fire them from the show? And she said, well, first of all, I can't. Like, she doesn't have the power to fire people from the series, but she's doing the thing that people like her do of. And I would never fire someone over views that they're legally allowed to have, which is just intentionally obtuse around what it means to punish someone for the views that they have. She's legally allowed to have hers. She's not been thrown in jail for expressing her opinions, but there are consequences to expressing the opinions that she holds, and she's receiving those consequences and doesn't seem to understand that. Like, she's not a victim in this case. You get to express your bad takes and your harmful opinions, but you don't get to choose how people respond to you. And she's sort of Trying to appear above it all with like, well, of course, no, but I don't think this is going to go well for her. I'm not sure that we've seen like the end of it. HBO continues to support this, but this could get relatively loud.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, think in this particular political environment. She and the series has a lot of COVID because there's a lot of other stuff going on. But this show is going to be 10 years long and the cultural vibes can change pretty quickly as we have seen both back and forth. I think notably that means that some, like you said, some of the other cast members have spoken out and the young man who apparently is great and I don't know how to say this guy's name, Papa Esidu, I believe, who some people who I know really trust, he's a Shakespearean, classically trained actor, is going to be Severus Snape. He's a black man and has come out and signed a letter in support of trans workers. I guess if this thing is going to exist that those involved can use the platform. Certainly the role of Snape will have a bigger platform than this guy has ever had and he is not going to. And I hope others will follow his lead. I hope that at some point John Lithgow will find it in his heart to at least say, you know, I don't agree and here's what I think and I'm going to do it anyway. Like, I think there's an interesting pragmatic decision. Like if you're involved with this, do you take the role and say, I'm pro trans? Is that better for the cause than not taking the role? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know all that goes in. But I think that's an interesting way of thinking about this. But the series is happening and the conversation is happening already and I feel horribly for the nine year olds that are going to get cast because parents.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Are going to agree to it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't know what they, they don't know what they're signing up for and I hope it goes, I hope it goes well.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Me for, for them to end up being a, a symbol of something that you aren't old enough to fully comprehend. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I don't know if there's anything else to say there. I mean that Lithgow seems himself to have no interest in entertaining the. Do you support the artist by supporting the art? He's like, it doesn't matter to him. You know, I, I guess I can if you think that you think that that's. I have a difficult time doing that. I'm not an absolutist, but it certainly is part of how I understand my relationship to art and other things, things that I consume. So it's a fraught in the extreme situation and it's just getting started, folks. It's just getting started. Speaking of fraught things. I don't even know. I really don't know what to say about this one, Rebecca. I. I really don't. Help me here, help me figure out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What to say is you're ridiculous and men's rights is nothing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There you go. Let nope it out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Conduit Books, which is founded by someone named John Cook, is a new.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Jude.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Jude. Pardon me when I say John doesn't matter. Is founding a new imprint to that will predominantly be focused on male authors because excitement and energy around new adventurous fictions around female authors. And this is only right as timely corrected. But this new breed of female authors giving rise to a situation where stories by new male authors are often overlooked with the perception that the male voice is problematic the same. This is. This is not it. I don't know what to say.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

My response to this is somewhere between a fart noise and a middle finger.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I mean it's. I think there was a piece recently, I don't know that looked at some cadres of younger authors like the Young Lions, 2030, under 35 and a few things like that where if you're doing the demographic United States thing, there aren't as many fellas as you might expect. Okay. Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. That women are succeeding doesn't mean that something are being taken. Something is being taken from men that historical wrongs are being corrected. Like I. I've just zero interest in this, in anything having to do with this conversation.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I don't even think there's a market inefficiency thing here. I don't even think this is a moneyball situation where it's like, you know what? I don't even really care about the gender politics, but if we just had more mid list literary fiction by 29 year old dudes, it just. This isn't. That just doesn't pencil out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like what are they angsty and looking for the meaning of life and then when they sleep with the right woman it all makes sense.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean we already did the 90s. I don't know what to tell you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Come on, man.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know Any points to 2020 data suggesting that 78% of those in editorial roles in the publishing industry are women. Yeah. But the people higher up are dudes. Yeah. I don't know. I. I just think it's, It's. It's strange. There was a blind quote to Joanna Thomas Core. Whenever I send out novels to enter, the list of names is nearly all female.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Like, the streets of New York are not littered with the bodies of young men who wanted to be editors and got turned down.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like, yeah, I do think there is a. The pool from which the applicants are coming situation happening here. They're looking for a book to launch with preferably a debut novel by a male UK novelist under 35. So a little bit ageist too. We'll just throw that in there. So. I don't know. I mean, like, if you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, you want to throw this in with like, greater economic trends, the publishing industry tends to. The publishing industry, at least as it's based in New York, tends to pay people lower than median market wages. Like, the big wins that a couple of the publishing unions got recently in the last few years for, like, base salaries are either just at or even sometimes still below what's considered a living wage in New York. Working in publishing in the, like, junior levels of editorial and marketing has a lot of vocational awe attached to it. People take those jobs in order to like, to do the thing they love. And women are socialized more than men are to sacrifice money and status in order to contribute to some greater good. You see it in healthcare, you see it in education. Like, this is not exclusive to publishing, but if this guy wants to have a conversation about why most of the editors in publishing are women, we can have it. But I think he's going to lose.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't think this is. I think there might be something interesting in. Where are those, like, what is actually happening here? But starting a press with this is just reading the room in completely a boneheaded way. This is not interesting to me in any kind of a way. I. I am here a little bit for the conversation of pendulum swinging back and forth. I guess a little bit maybe. I find that a little bit interesting. Barely. But not much, not much at all. I. I don't know. I don't know what to say. And I think this is going to be an uphill battle and one that I'm not sure anyone's particularly interested in fighting at this point. So I don't know. That's. That story's out there. I don't have a lot besides facepalm.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, my eyes can't roll Back any further.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Speaking of facepalm, boy, it's a real. It's a real cavalcade of yay Today show title from the old days. I linked to this in Today in books a couple weeks ago. BBC. Their Maestro series, which is kind of like their master class, I guess, is making an Agatha Christie writing course using AI and a Agatha Christie impersonator slash actress person with an overlay. Plus Agathry's Agatha Christie's own writing to do this video course. And what I said about this is it's technologically impressive, but creatively bankrupt, I think.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is just. There's nothing here. I don't know why this is interesting to anybody.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think you also said it in today books like, no one wants to this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I don't get it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No one has been like, oh, if I could just take a writing course from a hologram of Agatha Christie, then my life would be complete. Like, to me, this just seems like the AI era version of, like, I've been to the hall of Presidents at Disney World and I have seen the robot of Abraham Lincoln deliver the Gettysburg Address. And you know what? It didn't do it for me.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No. Janky. Like, there's. There's an uncanny valley of authenticity here. Right. Which is this. The thing about the. The animatronic robot is like, you know it's not the thing. Like, you just know that's not. There's no question about that with this is are you supposed to think that's. What are you supposed to think about this? Do you. Are you supposed to say, if asked, is that Agatha Christie? What's your response to that? Supposed to be yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, I think part of is.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It supposed to be yes is that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It'S that, you know, it's a deep fake of Agatha Christie. So the best, Like a third thing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Between yes and no.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. The best response is something like, man, that's a really believe. Like, she looks really real. It felt really authentic. And I don't know if it's going to have any of those things, but, like, just why. Why are we doing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't like this. And as I say, I'm not an absolutist in either direction about AI I find some of this stuff pretty interesting and I find some of the stuff pretty not. And this falls deeply into the pretty not stage.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. There are versions of AI that feel like a hammer looking for a nail. And this is definitely that of like, we have this technology, so we should justify it by doing something. But this is not the change the world that we were promised.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't think I quite anticipated the appetite for estates of dead people to put their cash cows into algorithms to do stuff like that. This, because they are not that person. And Agatha Christie cannot have consented to this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And we're in a whole new world.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Where they conceived of this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No. Yeah. So it's like, here's my take on this. If the Christie state decides to put aid fakes out, you then lose all copyright to all the books. That's, that's, that's the trade off you get to do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I would support that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's so weird. It's so weird.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't like it at all. There's authors I love dearly that I would never watch an AI defic of something them do. I just, I can't imagine this is being cool for everyone. This is an under. This is a little bit of a crack in the armor story and it affects the world of books and reading directly, but it affects the wider situation of the things we have in our phone, in the tech ecosystem in a way that's hard to wrap our heads around. But you can now because of a European court ruling, I believe Europe holding it down again for us. Yeah. Fortnite sued Apple with Spotify about buttons in apps that could take you not just to buy it in the app and get not, you know, to their store, but get. Take you to a third place directly where you can buy a thing and avoid the 30% tax that Apple has on purchases that happen in apps. And this has been a long standing problem for digital goods and books especially, which are on the agency model. There isn't margin for anyone to get anything there like Amazon or Bookshop or whomever. I bet Andy Hunter is thrilled today, though. He's gonna have some developmental problem where there can be now a button on the Bookshop reading app that says buy on Thriftbooks and it pops you out to a webpage ready to go. You don't have to go log out. And there's still some friction. But the difference between that and opening a new browser tab and buying your desktop, Rebecca, is enormous. And this is just the first raindrop of a storm of change coming here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think this is a game changer for folks who read in the Kindle app on any of their devices. And then as this trickles out, to write to Bookshop, to other online, to Kobo, other online bookstore retailers who, like, have a chance to change up their buttons and do the development catch up like I'm looking forward to being able to just buy a book in the Bookshop app on my iPad and not have to trot over to my laptop to do it. This and as you were saying, it is a chink in the armor of Apple's dominance around these ecosystems and taking their 30%, how difficult they've made it for other companies to do business inside their apps. But on Apple's platforms, it will be very interesting to see what comes from this. Not surprising, I guess, that Europe is leading the way here. They're a little bit more consistent.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I've got to say the the tech bros who signed up for the Red Hat brigade are not having a great time with how this administration is treating them because there's not going to. There's not a lot of coverage anywhere. I can't say I lament that to a greater degree, but Google getting broken up and some of these other things happening where the monolithic tech giants of the last 10 years are on the run a little bit.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know, at this point though, like if you believe that donating any amount of money to this president is going to protect you or your company, you deserve to pay that fine.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. It shows you that they don't know what they're not. They're not the masters of the university. They called that one exactly wrong. And that was like the easiest thing in the world to call. All right, on to our recent reading, Frontless Warrior brought to you by ThriftBooks. 19 million books, Rebecca. So many of all kinds, used new DVDs, movies, music and games as well. You know, it's Father's Day graduation coming up. We've done the grads, the books that you know, the non readers in your life or the more casual readers, they don't know if it's a new release, go get them a good used copy. You can get it there and if you do, you get free shipping on purchases over $15 in the US and you get rewards and become a member of the reader's rewards program. And every purchase gets you closer to a free book. Go to thriftbooks.com to find stuff out that you can buy for you and yourself and your loved ones or even if you sort of tolerate them but still have a reason to get them a gift. @thriftbooks.com Rebecca we read the same book and we didn't even know it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

For Friendless Foyer Planet. I love it when this happens. A couple times a year we get a little serendipity gift. So apparently we both read Girls Girls Girls by Sophie Gilbert, which was on.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The IT books contenders list. Why don't you. You want to go first? What did you do?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Did you listen to it? I listened to it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I did a digital galley.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, weird. We switched places. Okay, so this is about, like, how the media and entertainment, like, turned a generation of women against themselves, really. It happens to be my generation of women, like, late 90s, early 2000s millennial type stuff. And she's really looking at broadly, like, how porn and sex infiltrated pop culture. And when sex is everywhere, porn has to continue to push limits. And that the final frontier that porn could push is violence and different forms of violence that then kind of shift the Overton window towards how women are treated throughout all kinds of media. And you see this play out in, like, what we did to real women like Monica Lewinsky and Britney Spears in the media in the 90s. You see it all over 1990s entertainment, teen movies, all sorts of popular culture. And Gilbert just pulls the thread, like traces from one piece to the next of. Of how this developed, having lived through it. And, like, read all the teen magazines that had all this harmful stuff in them that I didn't know was harmful when I was that age. This felt like really validating to have an academic person be like, yeah, all of that was really messed up. And here's how it happened. And let's, you know, really look at how the different components of media feed into each other, then how the Internet feeds into all of that. Like, sort of constant visibility on women, pressures about body, pressures about weight. So I see some of this coming back up. Like, this is connected to right wing beauty standards that are sort of coming back up. And I've. I think I've said on the show before, like, I did not feel free Britney so that everybody could feel like they had to be blonde again. And Sophie Gilbert digs into what goes on culturally, where that's happening. What was it like for you?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm curious, like, your perspective by itself, because I live through this too. I'm a little bit older and a dude. And those two things matter because my high school and college years were the 90s and I've always been. And I had the splinter in the back of my mind, and it wasn't articulated as well as Gilbert does, at least in the initial parts of the books about, like, yeah, some. We went from Alanis Morissette and Janet Jackson and Lilith Fair to the Spice Girls.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes, right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And that felt like a step backward in feminist thinking. It certainly felt that way at the time. I Certainly couldn't have articulated it then and barely can articulate it now, but it did feel different.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And, and that everything is literally about girls.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. That feminism and girl power are not synonymous. And actually it's a. It's an intellectual sleight of hand that wasn't done by any one person sort of individually, but was a useful co opting of political and cultural revolution, frankly that it felt like was happening in popular culture in the 90s to a more conservative and commercial commodification of girlness. Right. Girls can do anything including wearing barely anything on TV all the time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. That it like consolidated women's power into being consumers of very like feminized, infantilized products.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I, and I found in the, the addition of the pornography piece I hadn't considered especially as the Internet made porn more and more accessible. And I, I'm willing to believe that it kind of makes intuitive sense to me in terms of proving it with the argument her correlation was more like porn was just a lot more popular and see, this looks like it could have been inspired by porn. Again, we're not like a legalistic army. We can't prove culture in that way. So I'm compelled by that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Not how sociology works.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Not how sociology works. I thought so. Sure. That makes sense to me. As interesting as I found the book, I thought it was a mess, to be honest. There's so much and we move back and forth and we don't spend a lot of time on any one thing. Like this thing connects to this thing is kind of the onion piece that totally gutted me. But I found the case studies interesting. I found the underlying argument compelling. But the actual reading experience was kind of whiplashy and all over the place.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I agree with that on audio especially. Like I wanted either a more linear timeline to move us through that whole period and hit the themes at each big moment or something more like what Closerman did with the. As a close read.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Brittany Close read the Spice Girls and.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Essay about each of these things and then pull them all together like in some. Make them exist in conversation with each other. And this. It didn't move around a whole lot. I think if you're in it for the ideas, you can get a lot from the book. But yeah, it's not.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think you read the first three chapters if you're interested and you kind of get it. Honestly, if you want to continue, great, of course. But like there isn't going to be a. It wasn't to me. My experience was in the end there was Like a new third giant chunk of the.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that's. I think I agree with that as well. Like, it's not revelatory, but I think it's important that documents like this exist, that someone says it and writes it down and draws those lines.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I, to be honest, my eyes were crossing a little bit as I got towards the end. Did she mention. Did she do any Bridge to the Future, like, Taylor Swift stuff? Do you remember?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't remember. I don't think so.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because that's the piece that. That's where I found myself wanting to go next. Like, it's hard because you can totally. There's a version, if you can see, Taylor Swift is like a synthesis of 90s feminism and like 20s ought exploitative girl power stuff. And I'm not an expert in this, Milou, but, like, it kind of feels like there is a. I don't know, she herself was a different. A response to a response to a response maybe, but I. I kind of wanted that, like, now, where are we? What does this mean now? But again, it's a book about the 2000s and it does that job well. But yeah, if you. To be a teenager in the. In the 90s with Lila fare and Alanis Morissette and Courtney Love, like, it did really feel different. And that's hard to express now.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And. Yeah, and I think, like, my exact age was. I was in the Lilith Fair Alanis zone.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But you're still pretty young then, right? When, like Jagged Little Pill. Are you like 11?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, but that's. Yeah, but I was like, yes, but like, I'm playing Jagged Little Pill on repeat, like on a loop. I don't know, maybe we just had good radio that year, but, like, that's what I had glommed onto.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And then I remember that record sold like 35. I mean, that's. It's hard to know now how huge, huge that. That made a grand disc of the 90s.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But like, when Alanis Morissette goes, like, gets. Starts getting radio play. It was still received wisdom among DJs not to play two songs by women back to back.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, that's right. But I guess what I'm thinking in terms of your. And I'd be curious, like, if you come into that 11. It doesn't. It may not as felt as revelatory as if you were 18 and grew up without that or even maybe not, but it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, I think the flip side of that is that it really informed my sensibility.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And like, those were the messages about what it was to be female that I got first. Like, we are screamy and loud, or we're Sarah McLachlan and we have these big feelings. And then I was baffled by the Spice Girls a couple of years later, like, and I just missed that. I feel grateful to have missed it. You know, Like, I went and saw Sarah McLachlan last summer, and Spice Girls, I don't think are doing anything right now. But it was. I think it would have been very powerful to have been, like, later in my teen years. I've been, like, not having any of those voices, but it was really formative that those were the. That was the female music that I had presented to me, that I glommed onto. And it really did shape my cultural perspective.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I was also wondering. And again, I'm not a music historian. I'm a. I like to listen to music. That's my qualification to talk about any of this. And I'm 47 years old, which is a qualification and a disqualification at the same time in a lot of ways. But it also made me think, was there an equivalent sort of shift from, like, the 70s rockers like Hart, Blondie, Joan Jett, the runaways to the 80s, which is much more poppy? Debbie Gibbs, like, is this something that just happens? I guess. You know, I find myself wanting a little historical perspective because Alanis Morissette was not the first, you know, popular female musician. Like, what about Diana Ross? Like, how do all those. Again, they were not expressly doing the kinds of lyrics Alanis Morissette was doing about Dave Coulier and Jagged Little Pill is not something that Martha Reeves and the Dells were saying. But there is a longer history here, and I'd imagine there are ebbs and flows and moves and counter moves that you could do a little bit, too.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Usually the conversation is about genre rather than the content. You know, that, like, rock, folk gave way to rock and then rock gave way to pop. That, like, in the late 80s, pop sort of rises and then really, when MTV comes on the scene, pop takes over. And rap is also playing around the scenes there. That, like traditional rock, if rock is dead, gets taken down by a combination of pop and rap. And I don't know where we end now. We're in some other zone. I don't know. I'm old. Look, I went to see Sarah McLachlan this summer. What do you want from me? But I think for millennials, Sophie Gilbert, good information, just, like, bring it back to the book and it might be interesting. Like, I would be interested in what folks younger than us think because they just, they live in the world that all of that made and did they know that that's where it came from?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. That's interesting. You do your other ones, I'll do my other one.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. So I also read Moral Ambition by Rutger Bregman. Have you seen this?

[Jeff O'Neill]

No.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's floating around. It like popped up in me in one of the self helpy kinds of things. I feel very conflicted about this. It's a self help book by a TED Talk giving quite European guy about how you're wasting your life. So you should go work on something that actually matters.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Look, Jonathan Franzen can be right. That just happens. I don't know what to tell you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. Yeah. And I think that's why it's conflicting. He quotes a person who works for, I think Meta, who tells him, like, I'm watching the greatest minds of my generation waste their talents trying to figure out how to get people to click on ads.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, One of the famous lines of the early 2000s.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And that just is true. And so he's like, here are some arguments for why we should consider stepping out of the like, bullshit jobs that a lot of people have and doing something that helps the world in some way. And he gives profiles of people who have done this. Those are fine. Like they feel very much like all the profiles that you come across in any business or self help book about like a guy who was different, who saw a thing in a way that nobody else saw it before they were bold enough to do it. And here they are. But like you also get the story.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Of like chicken IO eggs delivered by robots with no, but you also get.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The story of like the one man in a photo from the 40s where he's surrounded by Nazis and they're all saluting and he does not salute. And like.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So wait, what's the, what's the TED Talk? I don't, I lost the thread. What's the TED Talk version of this? Like, don't be a dick. I don't understand.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's spend your life doing things that are morally good that help the world. Like instead of wasting your time and your talents on junk, on chicken IO get your eggs delivered. And so there are some. There's a story about like a, a person who was successful in convincing a bunch of residents in a small town somewhere to hide like a 100 Jews during World War II. And how he went about doing that. That stuff is pretty compelling. I found the framework of it to be more Useful than the big argument. He's like, if you're going to leave your. If you're going to quit what you're doing and you're going to go do something that's for a higher moral cause. Here are like, five truths or six illusions or something like that that we all have to reckon with. And there's like, there is no purity. And, you know, like, you can't. You're going to have to make some compromises. There's like, give up the idea of synergy, that in order to solve one problem, you must solve them all. Like, he's definitely writing to progressives with some truths that progressives are pretty bad at handling sometimes. And I really appreciated that. Also. It probably felt a little convicting because, like, sure, we could all quit our jobs and go try to solve world hunger and why am I not doing that? You know? But I think he. And he also does wrestle with, like, most people are not going to do that, but we can do some things in our life that apply our time and talents to solving problems and acknowledges that being able to just like, fully direct yourself to, I'm going to go try to solve world hunger usually comes from a place of great privilege and comfort and that not everyone has access to those choices. So there's not judgment for, like, if you've got to work 3 jobs to pay your bills, he's not saying you should quit your job and, you know, go try to solve the world's problems instead. It was. I don't know, I think it made me frustrated in the ways that a book like that should make you frustrated. But it also had some interesting nuggets. Like, if I could photocopy the page of, like, Five Illusions about Doing Morally Ambitious work and just, like, pass them to every.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's kind of interesting. Yeah, I kind of like that. The perfect is the enemy of the good. That's all.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm right here. Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, maybe I'm.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That stuff was useful, but I don't know. It didn't change my life. I. Am I supposed to feel bad that it didn't change my life? Maybe. Here we are.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I think I teased this, like, three weeks ago, but the funniest book I've read or listened to this year is this American Woman by Zarna Garg.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

He's funny.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I first encountered her when Michelle and I went to see Fay and Polar's tour that got delayed in Covid. And she was the opening act and she was really funny. And then I was like, that's funny. Con that's funny comedy. I'm not much of a stand up person, you know, following it. And so when I saw this book in Edelweiss, I'm like, that's that name sounds familiar. I drilled down. So I decided to be a good audiobook listen. I was listen to and God damn it, is it good? Terrific. Her performance is wonderful. Of course she, if she wasn't going to read it herself, I wasn't going to do it. But she gives a terrific performance. It's very fun and conversational. But oh, what a story. Like coming from India, escaping an arranged marriage, living on the streets of Mumbai, coming to the US like trying out as being a lawyer, getting started up as a stand up in her 40s kind of cold pitching pay and pay. I'm now doing some malapropisms Polar and Faye like asking her agent. She tells the story at the beginning of the book. Are they, are they going to open or send my stuff? And they say yes. Like talk about, you know, raising your hand or whatever.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Fortune favors the bold.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The other thing, and this is harder to articulate and I want to be careful here, is that her own story of immigration and she says this explicitly, is so like positivist that I did find it a little inspiring in this moment where people coming from other places who want to come here for a better life is really being demonized.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

She's like, America is great, you know, I would have never gotten my own sitcom in Denmark. Let's be careful about valorizing Europe. And I was like, that's kind of an interesting thing point. And I'm not an expert in that, but. And she's like, I love white women. Do you think the whole world cares about women's rights if not for white women in the West? And I'm like, okay, it's not that simple. But for someone who came from a position, again, she was upper middle class and made some choices that to escape that which I think are very understandable, especially to those of us who live in different regimes. But there I just haven't heard sort of a full throated. There are things to be savored here, even from my beloved blue folks who are so oppositional right now, which for reasons I understand, I don't know, there was a part of me that was like kind of tearing up at a little bit of it. I don't know, maybe I'm a broken person in this world, but I find it warm and welcoming and of course there are problems. Yes, yes, I get it. But I also did appreciate someone who's had a wonderful American success story saying this can happen. And it's. That's good. This is good that this can happen.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that's. I've really appreciated seeing her stand up. And I'm definitely going to listen to this. And I think it's illustrative of like, first, that groups aren't monoliths, but more that we can hold two things at the same time. That this is a very bad time in this country. And that also there are still many things about living in this country that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Are better or safer or protecting and savoring and saving.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Or more expansive than other places. And that is why we are fighting so hard to keep it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's right. This is the thing to protect, not the other thing. I'm not even sure what that other thing is. I guess McMansion's in suburban Florida. I don't know. I'm not. I've never been quite sure about this, but a wonderful audiobook. My Full Throated listening recommendation. Awesome for this American Woman by Zarna Garg. And with that, we're out of time. Rebecca thanks everyone, for listening. BookRiot.com listen or show notes. You can email [e-mail] check out the Patreon. Check out the Instagram. I did an Instagram and TikTok about my favorite book of the year so far. Some of you saw that and had some feelings about seeing my face with the words coming out of them. And let me tell you, there is one more person that had more feelings about that particular process.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Who might that be, my friend?

[Jeff O'Neill]

We'll leave the the names of the guilty shall be withheld to protect.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Enjoy our convo with Sharifah about Rafa.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And can someone out there can you all light an incense candle for my draft prospects? I'm going fourth. Fourth.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Rebecca, you'll love to see it.

[Sharifah Williams]

Today's episode is brought to you by 8th Note Press, publishers of the Critters and Criminal series. By Tara Lush. Even in the quirky town of Wahoo, Florida, Maggie is an anomaly, a petite but determined gator trapper who isn't afraid to get dirty. But to fulfill her father's dying wish, Maggie came home to run the family business and reunite with her twin sister, Vera. Enter Jack, a criminology professor from Miami who is renting a room from the twins. Jack's good with Maggie's kitten and hot as hell. But while Maggie is debating whether she has time for a fling, a body turns up in the swamp full of bullets from Vera's stolen gun to prove her sister's innocence, Maggie must recruit the professor and take up crime solving. So the first book is Gator Queen and it's immediately followed up by by Swamp Princess, naturally, where our gator trapper Maggie and criminology professor Jack team up again to solve the murder of a cryptozoology influencer at a Bigfoot convention. You heard right. Make sure to check out the Critters and Criminals series by Tara Lush and thanks again to 8th Note Press for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by splashtide Publishing, llc, publishers of Bleeding Roses by April Savage the Romans are slaughtered while trying to colonize Dacian territory. This thrusts the elite Axius and famed hero Nestor into a painful reckoning that their fallen were not killed by humans. They embark on a journey to save their beloved commander Titus and the army who undertake a mission to avenge their fallen. Now Axius believes the Dacian queen Vasiliki holds the key to uncovering the truth about the killers as a plot seeking to undermine Rome from within is discovered. As they confront their worst fears, they realize this bloody war is already spilling into the streets of Rome. But the beasts in Dacia want more than Rome. They want the world. So Dacia has a hidden ancient power that is able to turn humans into pure blood werewolves, and they've had it for centuries. And the Dacian queen Vasiliki struggles to keep this power from the evil werewolf king Fenrir, for all the ancient Roman werewolf goodness. Pick up Bleeding Roses by April Savage and thanks again to splashtide Publishing LLC for sponsoring episode.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, we've gathered here, Sharifah Williams, Rebecca and I to talk about Run for the Hills, the new novel by Kevin Wilson, which I have no idea when it's coming out. Will it be out when people hear this?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is this pre coming out tomorrow? As you listen to this, it comes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Out on May 13th so this can help you decide if this is something you want to check out. If you're new to Kevin Wilson, we're going to kick off the show by talking about you know what what one comes to expect from a Kevin Wilson book because I think this might be his fifth novel to too. I was talking about in the terms of Bertino like 5th is an interesting point where you officially have a career, right? And you've done a few novels and he sold I think in in Edelweiss it said almost a million copies across platforms. Which is something more than a mid list career, but something less than like Taylor Jenkins Reid so kind of an odd spot. Rebecca, I'll start with you. When you. When you hear there's a new Kevin Wilson novel, sight unseen, what are you expecting from a Kevin Wilson experience? What do you expect? Excited for why do we care about this?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I think zany is the word we use the most often when we talk about Kevin Wilson. That usually it like his books are set in this world, but there's often something strange or weird happening. Not really in a specific way, but it's just. You just gotta know what zany means here. Like you know it when you see it. You know the family fang. Everybody, everybody in the family have these sort of like interesting talents. And the family is all woven together and complicated. Perfect little world is about kids being raised in like in a miniature society. That's actually a psychology experiment. Nothing to see here is about children who when they get really angry, they spontaneously combust like they erupt into flames. But that's just sort of one of the things that happens inside this family dynamic. And then now not the time to panic, which is my favorite. Kevin Wilson is about two kids in the 90s who accidentally set off a satanic panic in their small town in the south with an art project that they take on and that like 30 years later is still having reverberation. So when I think about him, I think he's always really concerned with relationships, with family dynamics or friendship dynamics, with the just like strangeness of being a person and that he takes these sort stuff of sideways ways and like little things that in other writers hands would sound like gimmicks or would feel like gimmicks. But somehow Kevin Wilson makes it work. It's really a magic trick that he pulls off and I think he makes it look so easy that we don't realize exactly how magical he is.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Srifa, do you remember your first Kevin Wilson experience?

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah. It was nothing to see here.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay.

[Rachel Rogers]

And that was the thing that really pulled me in. I was actually reading it for like as if it was a fantasy or speculative novel because I was about to talk about it for old podcast sff. Yeah. And I was just like I got so much more than I bargained for. When I picked it up. I didn't really know a whole lot about Kevin Wilson and it really was about the dynamics, like the friendship. Friendship dynamics were the thing that I perhaps didn't expect. And there's something about his women characters that I am sort of like destined to like the sort of dry earthiness.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You get a farmer in this one. Did you like you like Ma? Yeah.

[Rachel Rogers]

I loved mad.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's such a great point. Sharifa. I think in my experience, male authors who seem to have like genuine affection for the women on their pages are pretty few and far between. And Kevin Wilson, I think, really likes the women that he writes about and he makes them relatable and interesting and complicated. But there's not like there's not a shrew to be found.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, that's interesting. Yeah. And this one's certainly not the case. It's. It's hard if you haven't read. I'm trying to think of what a comp would be like. There's the, you know, Tom Parada I think is an interesting kind of a comp, you know, non leftovers. Tom Parada, like a little shy of that. Somewhere between Election and the Leftovers is kind of a Kevin Wilson ish zone of strange Rye can be dark, but like there's a warm heart at the center of it rather than a dark heart, I guess is maybe that's some sort of lightness. Does this. Does this author's have a darker light heart?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, yeah, I think. Think there's. Maybe they're on a spectrum that Wilson and Porada are not quite opposite ends of the spectrum. But as you were saying that I was thinking, oh man. But Tom Perotta is so much darker and there's a real, like a buoyancy, not just an opposite of darkness, but a sort of lightness in the. And a buoyancy to Wilson's writing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I think that shows up in the packaging, frankly, like one of the, you know, one of my frustrations that he's doing fine. Kevin Wilson has no problems that you know that especially in the world of writing novels like this. But like, what are. These are commercial fiction. These are not commercial. This is not. It's like if there was Chiclet for dudes, but it's not just for dudes. Like, I'm not even sure like what.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is what genre they know how to package.

[Jeff O'Neill]

They don't. And even you. You can't see my hand gestures, but like even my hand is like what the comps are so rare that we struggle for. And the packaging is somewhere between a literary novel and a beach read. And that's right. And that's not. That's not wrong. That's actually kind of the right conductive. Like what would you call this, Sharifa? Do you call this literary fiction? Like, maybe that's step zero, I would call it.

[Rachel Rogers]

Well, I used to read a lot of humor, comedy fiction When I was a teenager. And the reason I love Kevin Wilson is because it took me back to those reading experiences. So I've always thought of it as like, sort of in the comedy, humor, adult fiction realm, which is just not something I think we talk about a whole lot. Or not as popular, perhaps.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, like the Jonathan Trappers of the world. You know, maybe when he was writing novels, like, the comps were pretty tough anyway, so I think. So what? So I. Let's save this because we're going to get into discussion of the book itself. If people haven't tried Kevin Wilson. Rebecca, what do you suggest they start with? Like, give. Give them the one that if you're going to be. This is the one to do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I really think now is not the time to panic is the one to do. To me, that's Wilson at his best. Like, maybe that's my elder millennial heart. 90s satanic panic.

[Jeff O'Neill]

For other people, it might be talking about, like, the Red Scare if you didn't live through it. Like, it seems like ancient American cultural history.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think maybe perfect little world is like the highest concept of the other ones. So if that sounds fun to you, like, what would it be like to grow up in a psychology ex. Experiment and maybe not know that that's what you were doing? They're all. But they're. I don't know, they're all wonderful. I don't like this question for Kevin Wilson because I think, well, but people need it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

They go to the store and they see these covers that are. Give them information they don't understand. And now Sharifa. So Rebecca abdicated Sharifah. You get to pick. Are you picking the same one? Are you going to pick something else?

[Rachel Rogers]

Well, I feel like I'm biased because.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, that's okay.

[Rachel Rogers]

Nothing to see here was so seminal. It's hard to forgive your suffering and loving Kevin Wilson. Yeah, that I would just be like, well, of course that's the one you have to read first. Because that's the one I read first. And I was totally told.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What about you, Jeff?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think now's not the time to panic because I'm a 90s kid. I think that's true. There's a family fang Royal Tenenbaums comp. That I've always kind of like. Like there's something similar. This. It's not as stylized as Wes Anderson, but it's also kind of just a skew. Like, it's like askew, but still copying about, like, pretty basic things. Like you're distant from your dad, you Know, like at some level, they're both wrapped in conceit or tweed or indie rock from the 2000s, really trying to find some way to talk about some fundamental, not that complicated issues, honestly, but doing it with some verve and style.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, Kevin Wilson's vibe is kind of like if Wes Anderson, like chilled out a little bit, drink a couple beers in the garage with his friends.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I think so. Or was just a different person in some degree. But anyway, there are this sign. Okay, we're gonna do just a quick break for anyone that wants to jump off and don't want to hear about the book. We may do a little evaluative stuff at the top before spoilers, but we will be getting into the substance of the show. All right. We haven't talked about it at all. Run for the Hills is out now. I will give myself the easy task of just summarizing in the book, which is there is. There are four people across the this sort of in descending order of age from Boston all the way to Utah who have the same father who was a serial lever and a 44 year old guy named Reuben. His mother dies and it causes him to have a bit of a midlife crisis. I say in the way he points, that is, towards hiring a private investigator to figure out what happened to his dad. In the course of that, learns that they're the other families that have been serially left and he goes across country in a PT Cruiser to encounter and collect them. That leads to. Well, it leads somewhere. I don't know how much is a spoiler. I don't know if you. I think at this point maybe you don't want to know what happens at the end of that road trip. So I'll leave it there and I'll start. I'll just start here. Rebecca, is it? What do you think? What do you think of Run for the Hills by Kevin Wilson?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I liked this, but I didn't love it, like. And I think it's because this is his least zany to me, you know, we just talked about what the defining features of Kevin Wilson are. This is the most grounded, the least amount of weird stuff happens here and it's maybe the most overt. Like it's been a little while since I read, you know, the. It's been a couple years since now is not the time to panic. But he has the characters make some really direct observations about like, what family means and what connection means and maybe why they've been afraid of connection because their dad was a serial lever. And I've always liked the things that Kevin Wilson doesn't say but lets you conclude on your own. The flip side of that, though, is that I think the straightforwardness of it and the overtness of it might make it more commercially successful than the other books. Sharifa, like, there's not a gimmick to have to get over.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah, I can see that. This definitely felt like one of the easy, breeziest reads. 256 pages went quick and it seemed like, you know, almost categorically the perfect road trip book. Like the kind of book you'd have on as an audiobook and wouldn't, like, ruffle a whole lot of feathers or anything. And I think I was expecting a little bit more ruffling of feathers or a big moment.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Is there a cuss in this book? Is there a swear word in this book?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't think so.

[Rachel Rogers]

It does not. Yeah. Thinking about the characters in this book even makes me say confidently, no.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. There's no edge.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's no. There's no moment of rare danger. Yeah. Yeah, there's one. There's one driving incident that is written in such a way that you don't even know they were in danger until they're not. Until they're out of it, which is kind of strange. Yeah. I mean, this was my least favorite Kevin Wilson book by considerable margin, I would say. And it's not that it's bad, it's just it felt like it was written by a guy named Kevin Wilson, not Kevin the Lumberjack Wilson. Like this. Even this. I can't point to a book that I've read like this, but the idea of confronting your lost dad and even going and finding siblings. I can't point to a book that actually does this or tv, but it feels like it's kind of like an amalgam of other ideas, kind of like this. The dialogue wasn't memorable, really. I didn't find much zip there. There was. There's one paragraph I remember, or half a page where it's just them saying goodnight to each other that takes up half a page. And I didn't. Wasn't really getting much out of it. I didn't dislike my time spent with the book, but I am finding myself having a very difficult time saying someone should read this for a reason. Like it's kind of a replacement, decent, entertaining, commercial, upmarket novel. I'm afraid that's where it is for me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I agree with that. To me, it felt like it was written to be adapted. Like, you can see the scenes are so defined. You can see the characters in the PT Cruiser, which is such a great detail, and that they, you know, it's. First it's Matt and Rube, and then the next episode they pick up Pepper, and then the next episode they pick up Tom, and then they go off to California and they have a couple things along the way to finding their dad and having that whole situation that, like, I can just see this rolling out on Hulu in a couple of years, and I suspect that I might like the TV version of it more than I like the. The book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And I think the reason for that probably is you can imagine acted versions of these characters that have more specificity in life to them than they do on the page. Srifa does. I mean, we like the ladies here, I think, on the whole. But is there a character that jumps out as being like, that's a pretty amazing character with a real singular voice?

[Rachel Rogers]

I mean, the character I liked best was Mad, just because I love that type of thing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

She's growing stuff. She's growing stuff. Come on.

[Rachel Rogers]

She's on a farm. She's doing her thing. But I think that. I think Rube was an interesting one. An interesting character. Like, you know, Kevin Wilson isn't afraid to make his characters kind of as deranged as they are level two. And there is, like, a certain level of, like, that's where you went. That's what you were thinking about doing when you were planned.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But even that felt a little like pulled punch somehow. Again, we're talking about a moment spoiler alert here, where Rube, who's the oldest and who initiates this whole thing, confesses to Mad and I think, pep at the same time, or independently. I can't remember that his plan or notion or idle thought was to kill their dad at the end when they finally met him. For reasons that I don't know, even that I found a hard time reckoning with. Like, I kind of didn't believe it, and yet I was, and yet he said it. So I don't know. I find that very strange too. Rebecca, I think I. The. The book actually does grow teeth. We're in spoiler territory. I'm telling everyone here when they get to the dad's place. There is some fraughtness. There is some, if not danger, intrigue, some interesting moments. I think the premise probably was a group of kids with the same runaway dad get together to meet him. Sounds like a good premise, but it feels to me like a bottom quartile execution of it. Given Kevin Wilson's potential talent and what.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

He could have done. I just expected there to be more spikiness or more to, like, wonder about and not know how scenes, they got along pretty fast.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Pretty great.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. It just was. Yeah. The whole thing just goes down a little too easy. And even the, like, I can see the writerly choice, I think, happening, with the big reveal being that there isn't a big reveal that their dad's not a con artist. There's no grand plan. He's just a guy with mental illness having a hard time. And he didn't expect us.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Where does that leave us?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

He didn't expect to do this with his life, but here we are. And I totally believe that this kind of thing happens and has happened and that people have this story. And also, it just was not that interesting.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah. I felt like I was as dissatisfied as, you know, it was described. When the siblings realized that this was just it, I was like, I feel that right now. Like, I feel that sense of dissatisfaction and to.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What do you mean he's not a cult leader?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rachel Rogers]

Like, to keep reading and not. Like, I kept reading thinking, like, this can't just be it. Right. Like, and it was.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There is an overt wizard of OV reference in the book. And the. The grand finale, or the purported grand finale of wizard of Oz is you're going to meet the wizard. It's just a guy behind the thing. Right. But what the wizard of Oz does, well, that's not at the actual villain. The actual villain is the witch or something. Like, there's this other thing. We're going back home. But I couldn't help thinking about, what if the wizard of Oz just ended When Dorothy realizes it was just a guy behind a curtain and she's just there, just, like, start standing there. She's like, well, at least I made a couple of friends. Like, that's a weird book.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It was the friends we made along the way.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It was the lion, the coward. The coward friends we made the whole time. In the end, I'm not sure because I think he. I don't want to psychologize or, like, write a different book. I think one of the consequences of the end, where everyone kind of gets along is not that satisfying. Right. This is. This is about as a happy ending as you could have reasonably expected when the book started, I think. Right.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And it's also kind of not believable that, like, he's done this much damage to these four people over, like, 40 years and that in the course of a couple of days of, like, everyone having one good session of yelling at their dad and then finding out that he's sick, they come to a, like, a level of understanding that makes a couple of them feel okay about just staying there with him. Like, we're talking decades in therapy after this. Friends.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah. Like, his. That Tom. Tom is the youngest. His mom just, like, lets him stay sight unseen with this obviously kind of irresponsible, unpredictable person. Like I was maybe, you know, in the world of fiction, anything can happen. But I think, like, with the context of this whole story of things kind of playing out in a. In a sort of predictable way, and.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Frictionless, I think, is the word that comes to mind. Like, there's not. Like, they. I think one scene that's telling is they're at a truck stop or whatever where gambling is legal and Tom wants to spend 10 bucks on the thing, and everyone's like, no, it's just a scam. Whatever. And they end up winning $4,000. Like, that's kind of, to me, a microcosm of the whole book is like, they. Yeah, they won $4,000. And that was. That was kind of it. They reconciled. They. They didn't murder anyone. They all got along swimmingly. They didn't have to bring anyone at gunpoint. Like, even Field of Dreams Rebecca, he's trying to get her to come along. And, like, there's some tension and stress and humor in, like, just the. Getting people in the car. And there's none of that here. Like, the. The weirdest moments are just sort of cringy on the phone, like, we're your siblings, but there is no real drama. I guess there's just no drama. I don't know. That feels harsh to say, but I'm having a hard time saying that they're. That's not true. True.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. No, I think that's right. Like, it's the kind of book that the blurb sounds like there are real stakes, but then in the reading of it, it doesn't feel like the stakes are high.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Which is weird because these four people have never met each other and they have the same dad and they have all of this stuff to discover. Like, these are objectively capital S stakes, but it's all just so smooth.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I can't find. Because, like, Matt is our. I think she's our point of entry character because she gets a flashback to a fond memory of making sorghum syrup with their pancakes and everything like that. And then she becomes kind of a middle point. Right. Where people trust her and, like, she's not rubes. Supposed to be a little darker. She's not Pepsi use. Like this. 32 is an interesting age to have her at the center where she's lived some life, but she doesn't seem damaged by it. I think she even says that at some point, like, I can probably deal with this the easiest. That goes back to something you said. Rebecca is like, there's a little bit of saying the thing out loud that maybe we would have found more interesting to work through. But even she has sort of this unresolved thing about, like, well, I'm not dating anyone because I'm too busy on the farm and it's sort of left there. I do think there's a version of this that is a little bit more. We've got to work through our stuff. Like finding out whatever happened on dad is not going to solve our things, but the process of trying and realizing that is going to be messy, interesting, real and human. And it didn't ever get to that point. It never got to a messy point. Never got to. It felt like a real human moment of vulnerability and pain. Weirdly.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I kind of wanted the end of the book to be the beginning of a book. Like, the story sort of starts with, I've met all of these siblings and we finally found our dad. And like, that's when things would get interesting and weird in Kevin Wilson.

[Nordstrom Advertiser]

Y.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, what do you do after that? What is it like when the two that are staying, stay with them? What does MAD feel when she actually does go back home? Does some fella show up and now she's open to dating? But of course it's not going to go super well. Like, there's a lot of. I feel like all the richness exists after the book ends.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Nordstrom Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Rachel Rogers]

Because by the end of the book, it's such a. It feels like there was such an incremental change made to the way. Like, one of the things I love about Kevin Wilson's women characters is that they seem to be stumbling toward deeper self awareness.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rachel Rogers]

And it doesn't. It didn't feel like. It felt like a little bit of a half inch skip towards self awareness. Like, it wasn't enough of a jump. Like, all these things happen in between in terms of like, distance traveled. But not a lot happened in terms of like inward distance, distance travel. What happened to you? How did you develop as a character? I couldn't say. A lot happened there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think there is a. The way the story was told has some effects that I think were a Little too bad. And I think maybe zap. Some of the tension is. Is there a version that begins with them like rolling up in the PT Cruiser, all dusty and discombobulated and having a confrontation where you know what's happening, but you don't really know the characters? And then you flash back to Bad's life, then you flash back to Rube's life. Because what we have instead is we meet these characters as Rube meets them, and then they just tell their stories, which from a writer's perspective, they're only going to tell their stories like you talk to another person. Whereas if we had a chapter that was about Tom before we met Tom for real, but we had seen him then what is his interiority? What is this whole Trista weird situation? And instead we get this, tell me about your life in 10 minutes between gas stops, which feels very surfacey. And I think that, I think that contributes to what he says. Like, one reason we don't see the movement is because we don't see any subterranean feeling or thinking. There is no. This is not an omniscient third person situation where we really have a good sense of what's going on between people's eyes. It's much more how they're relating to each other in the course of 72 hours. And they don't have very much time to do much, nor does Wilson put them in positions to have like a real breakdown, honest moment. We're supposed to get a couple, but I kind of didn't. I kind of didn't buy it. I just didn't. Well, I didn't. I don't want to be too harsh about it. I think the things that you can see of. You can see a version of it that is more of a zany road trip that is more of a Little Miss Sunshine, I guess, is something I was thinking of as a comp that has. That's a good, a darker kind of stakes. But even, like the personal stakes were higher, even that the, the stakes of the beauty pageant were much, much lower. And to put this book in contrast with a movie like that, the book doesn't do the book any favors. It really doesn't.

[Rachel Rogers]

I mean, I, I think that the nice thing to be said about it is that it is adaptable, which I'm sure wouldn't, wouldn't hurt because you could.

[Jeff O'Neill]

See six episodes, right? There's one per person and maybe two at the end, like a six episode miniseries.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And, and if you got some casting, like Jason Bateman was in the family thing, Right. And so, like, I think. And so if you get somebody with some edge to play Rube, you could. I think that goes a long way.

[Rachel Rogers]

And maybe edit it. Like, edit the ending a little bit in post.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think you have to punch it up. You got to give these people more things to do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think you do the thing of, like, it starts with the. Some of the ending scenes and then you make it not linear because this linear.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think you have to have Mod discover, like, Rube's gun or something. Like, you have to have Tom run away like you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Or like, somebody needs to, like, lose their. While they're making those grilled cheeses in the cabin and threaten their dad or scream or something. Like the fact that each of them goes off and has their confrontation with their dad and we don't actually see. See it. They just tell each other later.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, yeah, I screamed.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was curious. Why do you think that happened? Why did we do that?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, I really wanted to see somebody be like, what the hell, man? You left us.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I do. I did appreciate, and this is true in arguments and apologies I've both given and received, that even if someone like, let's say that I've done something wrong, that would be the first time up till now I've lived a perfect life. But let's. Let's imagine 47 years straight, we got it all four figured out. Let's imagine I've done something incorrectly, and you really, honestly apologize and someone is mad. Everyone knows that. That is also kind of unsatisfying. Like, you don't get, like, the thing that's like, you know what? Okay, you got it. Because it's actually worse when someone's like, you know what? You're totally right. I'm so sorry. Because then you want to keep going. Like, you're like, but no, wait, I had a whole bunch.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm not done being mad at you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's not. Wait, wait. That's what you're supposed to say. But wait a minute, that's not. Anyway, so I appreciated the reality of that, but it also isn't super great drama or maybe investigating that of like, coming back around to a tree if you're going to say something else.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah, I mean, it definitely feels like an aversion to drama. Like it was in service of, you know, keeping things soft and light and reducing the friction. Because it's hard to imagine why else. Like, I thought that perhaps as, you know, as things carried on, we would actually see something from their perspective from that conversation they had But I think by that point in the book, I also didn't know what to expect in terms of drama. I didn't expect that there would be enough of it to make me satisfied. So I was kind of like, oh well, we didn't get that, so just carry on.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I actually found myself wanting maybe just from a. It would be different for him to be like, yeah, I did it. You're responsible for your own lives. Yeah, I wasn't there. So what? You know, at least that would have been giving them something to push against. But there was really nothing for them to. To push against, which I can imagine being a reality in situations where you have an absent parent. And the truth is they just sort of didn't want to be there. I mean, that's also maybe as difficult as anything there is to, to deal with. At the same time, I did like, like I liked our brief foray to the world of college basketball, which I don't see that that often.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean that's like factory made to be a fun chapter for you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it really is. But even that was a little. I don't know, I could see a whole nother thing there. I just. Each bite at the apple, it felt a little flavorless. Even though I kind of understood the. The shape of it, I could kind of see the version of it that maybe wanted to be there. But 256 pages goes by fast. For as much as is we're supposed to care about these characters or doing something else. I don't want to belabor the point. Did you guys have anything else on your checklist that you wanted to note or call out?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think this is a really. It feels like a really safe book and so there's some utility to that. Like this might go on my list of books you can give to your mother in law for the holidays and you're not going to offend her in any way. But my hope is that this is an anomaly in the oeuvre of Kevin Wilson and not a nude direction. Kevin Wilson?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, Sharifa. Any scene or character or moment that you wanted to. To spend a moment on.

[Rachel Rogers]

I just wanted to say, I cannot believe they besmirched the PT Cruiser by making it the butt of a joke.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh really? Wait, did you have a former bearing the lead?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What color was it?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Purple.

[Rachel Rogers]

It was a black PT Cruiser and I got it because it looked like a British cab. That was literally. That's. That's what my, my car capacity for.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Dress up even goes to automobiles.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I didn't realize my God. You know what's really unfair though, is that this is the one person in the world who could make a PD Cruiser cool.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's right.

[Rachel Rogers]

I mean, thank you. I appreciate that. I did have like a little vampire figurine on the dashboard because, you know.

[Jeff O'Neill]

If Wednesday Adams was a cabbie, that's Sharifa.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's a Netflix show. Actually, that's a Kevin Wilson book I would read.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I once rented a PT Cruiser and there, I don't know who put those together, but my line of sight.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They were not came up to my.

[Jeff O'Neill]

My chin. I had to like, that is hello down and look out. Like I was in a, like in a German pillbox on D day. Like, I don't know what that thing was supposed to be doing. It was nuts. Well, then there was. Because there, it's like, that's a weirdly 90s 90s reference he makes. Because then they, they upgraded to the Chevy hhr, which is the same car, just like slightly bigger. Like this horrible design.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, the book is set in 2007 and there was a moment where if you didn't pay attention to what kind of rental car you were booking, you were getting a PT Cruiser. Like, this is. That's good. Kevin Wilson attention to detail. And it's just funny that these people are like packed into this silly looking. I'm sorry, Cherise. A silly looking car having this moment, like this potentially very dramatic personal moment that they're having. I mean, that was.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think Rube says that it was the size, it was the car. In the class that I got, everyone's had that experience.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, I guess I didn't do it on purpose.

[Rachel Rogers]

That was very real.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Sharifa. If the twins were suspended above molten lava and the way to save them was to say which of these kinds of cars is bigger? Standard full or mid sized rental car. Could you tell me which of those would get you a larger vehicle?

[Rachel Rogers]

Oh my gosh.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I struggle with this every time. It's like a Toyota Corolla are similar. Is that bigger or smaller than a Hyundai Elantra or similar? It's like, what are we doing here, people? Why Is this the 2000?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I just want to pause on the 2007 of it all because this is definitely a book that has that problem. Like the X Files episode of like, this doesn't work if cell phones exist. Like, yeah. So much of their interactions with each other and their lack of awareness about each other, about where their dad went is enabled by the fact that they're in a pre social media pre iPhone world where people met each other and took each other's word for who they were. Like each of their mothers just met this guy and believed his whole story. And it's been a while since I've been on the dating scene, but I understand that now you can Google people.

[Rachel Rogers]

Oh my gosh, what an unbelievable world.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rachel Rogers]

2007 was his element.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. They're like, yeah, he said he was a basketball coach and why would I question it?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Also there he. He was apparently awesome at everything. Like Catch Me if youf Can Style. Like he was just. Could be an awesome farmer artist, state championship winning basketball coach. Like that was a weird. That was maybe the speculative fiction conceit is that he was just crazy good.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Good at all this stuff.

[Sharifah Williams]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The Mary sue of a runaway dad, I guess.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah, right there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Do anyone still use that term? Yeah. Anyway, all right, well, we'll still give Kevin Wilson a shot. This is not the end.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I'm not out on.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We'll follow him to Woodside.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Thanks so much for listening today. We hope you'll enjoy this audiobook excerpt from Future A Young Person's Step by Step Guide to Making Wealth Inevitable. Written and narrated by Rachel Rogers.

[Nordstrom Advertiser]

Introduction. You don't have any money. I didn't either. Not only did I not have any money, I had no clue how to get any money. Nevertheless, I am a millionaire. And you, you are a future millionaire. By the time you finish reading this book, you will know and believe that this is true about yourself. Not only will you fully accept your identity as a future millionaire, you will have a plan and the mindset to make it happen. You see, getting money is a learnable skill. And I'm about to teach it to you. First lesson. You're not broke. You're pre rich. You are a future millionaire. Declare it, know it, demand it of yourself and the world and prepare to work for it. No, it's not the kind of work you're thinking. It's not all my life grind in all my life type work. It's taking a risk, putting yourself out there asking for the sale type work. But don't worry about all that right now. We'll get into it later. All you need to know right now is that no matter what your life or bank account looks like today, you can be wealthy. I'll even go so far as to say, baby, you will be wealthy as long as you trust and believe that it's possible. I believe it for you, but you have to believe it for yourself. And I'm not talking about Just saying it out loud and then hoping millions magically appear in your bank account one day. Canvas bags with dollar signs are not gonna suddenly fall from the sky and bust you in the head, no matter how many times you've seen that in cartoons. There will be work. Effort is required, the right mindset is required. But wealth is possible. And if you truly believe wealth is probable, being young might feel like a setback on your journey toward wealth. Maybe you feel like your ideas and skills aren't taken seriously yet. Maybe you feel like you lack access to the people who could really help you. Maybe you feel like making money, real money, not part time, sweating it out for minimum wage money simply isn't possible when you're young, or when you're young and a person of color, or when you're young and identify as lgbtqia, or when you're young and you grew up low income or middle class, or you live in an expensive city or a small town, or out in the country, you might feel the way you look or the way you talk is preventing you from being wealthy. You are right that some people won't take you seriously. You are right that some people are racist, some people are sexist, some people are homophobic, some people are transphobic, some people are fatphobic, and some people are jerks. Some of these issues are institutional and systemic. For example, as a young black woman, I had a hard time getting a business loan for my first company. Studies show that banking policies are sexist and racist depending on your identity. These are very real barriers you may contend with on your journey to build wealth. But that's no secret, right? You're living that truth already. Despite those very real barriers, I still became a wealthy black woman. And you can become a wealthy young person, a wealthy woman, a wealthy queer person, a wealthy person of color, a wealthy disabled person. The real secret is that having wealth isn't just about the money. It's about what you can do with that money. What would you do with an extra $5,000, $10,000, $100,000 or $1,000,000? Would you pay off your parents mortgage so they never have to stress about paying that bill ever again? Would you buy your sister a car so she can stop taking the bus late at night? Would you stop taking out student loans and pay for the rest of college with the cash you have? Would you provide toys at Christmas and back to school supplies in the fall for low income kids in your neighborhood? Would you back progressive political candidates that you believe in? Would you send a food truck to feed protesters fighting for a cause you care about. Money is not about the money. It's about how that money can be used to make your life better, make your loved ones lives better, and make the people in your community's lives better. It's about gaining social, economic and political power that enables your voice to be heard and your dollars to be used to create the world you actually want to live in. It's also about belief, specifically the things you believe about yourself. It's about the barriers that hold people back. And it's about your daily habits, all of which we'll get into in this book. But the most important thing about building wealth is that you have to believe in yourself. That is the best investment you can ever make. You may be thinking, why should I listen to you? Well, for starters, I'm a millionaire and I made every cent through a business I built with my own two hands. Everything I'm going to tell you to do, I did myself. But I also made a lot of mistakes. I didn't grow up with money. Not even close. I know what it's like to see your parents struggle. To see bills not getting paid, to see the fear and stress on their faces when the landlord is knocking and the rent is late again.