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- [00:00]
A
John's, like, cringing right now. My husband's our editor and we're going to have to bleep out every time we say that.
- [00:05]
B
Oh, no. Sorry. Stop swearing. I swear so much. Okay. I will be better. Sorry. John. John, you're so great. Thank you. So sorry.
- [00:15]
A
He's gonna love it.
- [00:17]
C
I am so great. Everybody loves me. I.
- [00:32]
A
Welcome to Book Talk Etc, a podcast bound to grow your tbr. I'm Tina from TBR Etc.
- [00:38]
C
And I'm Hannah from Hand Picked Books.
- [00:40]
A
This is a conversational podcast about books and more from two Midwest Mood readers who are easily distracted by new releases. And today, we are so excited to be joined by Tracy Thomas from the Stacks.
- [00:50]
C
If you enjoy listening, we'd love for you to follow us on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app. And if you have a quick minute, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or sharing us on social media. It truly helps us connect with other book lover.
- [01:03]
A
Well, hey, welcome to Book Talk, et cetera. Tracy, we're so excited to have you.
- [01:07]
B
I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm so excited.
- [01:11]
A
Hey, and it's so great. So we typically don't have guests, but your publicist had sent us this wonderful email about all of these different topics. We were like, yes, absolutely. And primarily we talk a lot about fiction, but I know our listeners when we do share nonfiction are like, yeah, keep doing it. Do more. So I'm excited to give them a lot of different recommendations.
- [01:30]
B
Today you brought in the nonfiction ringer. That's me.
- [01:33]
A
Yeah, I know you're probably very popular in, well, always, but specifically in November with people focusing on nonfiction.
- [01:40]
B
You don't really do nonfiction. November. I did one thing on my substack this year, but I'm gonna be giving nonfiction recommendations all year. So I sort of forget that November is a time for nonfiction. And I personally read a lot of fiction in November because it gets to the end of the year, I sort of already am done with my show and booking. So I'm like, what are things that I didn't really get to because weren't urgent? And usually for me, that's like leftover fiction. So so far this month, I think I've only read fiction that is, you're.
- [02:10]
A
Like, doing the opposite. But that's totally. Because I'm sure people come to you for nonfiction recommendations, so it makes sense. I'm quite sure we have a fair amount of overlap between our audiences, but just in case, Tracy is the creator and host of the critically acclaimed Literary podcast the Stacks. She's a passionate champion of books and a deeply curious interviewer. She is a monthly contributor on NPR's Here and Now, a columnist for Shereads.com and the creator of the LAist live literary series One for the Book. She also moderates literary events, book festivals, and author talks nationwide. So, I mean, you've got so much going on, right?
- [02:48]
B
She sounds great. Who is this girl?
- [02:52]
A
I know, I was grabbing it from your website. I will say, tell me when your podcast started.
- [02:58]
B
2018.
- [02:59]
A
Okay. I feel like your show was one of the very first I ever listened to. One of the very first book podcasts I ever listened to. I have this like vague memory. I don't know who the guest was, but I remember you talking about, do you have experience like going door to door like for people like for like campaigns, Campaigning? Yes.
- [03:19]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I quit my job in 2008 and I worked for Obama and I do it every election now. I go, I knock. I don't quit my job every time now I'm an adult, but I go and I knock doors. Like we just knock doors. This most recent election, obviously for Kamala Harris, but also for a really tight congressional race that was just called two days ago and our candidate won, George Whiteside. So I'm very excited.
- [03:44]
C
It was blipped.
- [03:45]
B
I know it's a very bleak time for a lot of people who are voting for blue people, but that was a win and I felt like I brought my kids for the first time. So.
- [03:55]
A
Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, we will take the wins, I think where we can get them. But yeah, that was anywhere we can get them. I remember you sharing about that. I was, I was so inspired.
- [04:03]
B
I'm like, wow.
- [04:04]
A
Okay, so that makes sense. Well, we'll start our show as we always do with our loving lately. So I will open it to our guest first. Tracy, what is your loving lately?
- [04:14]
B
Okay. I was told I could love anything I want lately and I've listened to Yalls show before and usually you all have like good, smart loving lately. But I have to keep it real. I am loving Butterfingers candy bars right now.
- [04:31]
A
Fantastic.
- [04:32]
C
I love this.
- [04:34]
B
I had not had a Butterfinger in probably like 10 years. It's not a candy that I generally reach for obviously, but I've got, you know, serious trick or treat age children. I have almost five year old twins. It was recently Halloween with the election anxiety. My husband bought a lot of candy and he bought this mixed bag of like Crunch bar payday that a hundred grand and Butterfinger. And I, like, ate the ones I liked. And then I was like, let me just, like, eat a Butterfinger. Ugh. I don't really like Butterfinger. Whatever. No, I had one and was like, where have you been all my life? What have I been doing? Because when I was a kid in, like, the 90s, butterfingers were huge because Bart Simpson was, like, into them or something weird. And so I feel like I used to eat Butterfinger more frequently. It was, like a more common candy. It was out and about. It was aggressively seen. And then I feel like in the last 10 to 15 years, there's sort of been this rise of Reese's, which I love, but there's, like, Reese's Trees, there's Reese's Cups, there's Reese's Pieces. Like, just like, everything is Reese's. Reese's Take 5, which is, like, my favorite candy. And I feel like Butterfinger was just like, we do one thing. We do this one bar that gets stuck in your teeth, and that's it. And we're not changing, literally. And I rediscovered Butterfinger, and I'm like, I had one this morning. I'm eating them like it's like a grape. Like, I just grab a Butterfinger or seven. And I'm just. You know why I'm loving it lately?
- [06:12]
C
I love loving Wheatleys like this because I feel like sometimes it's a good reminder that it really is the little things. And I do feel like candy is just needed right now. I feel like we all need a little extra sweet treat. And I love that you're rediscovering something that's a super fun one. I love that.
- [06:31]
A
Yeah.
- [06:31]
B
I feel like Bart Simpson. I need a skateboard.
- [06:33]
A
Oh, my gosh. Immediately, when you said Butterfinger, my mind went to, nobody better lay a finger on my Butterfinger. That was the Bart's commercial. And what a fantastic marketing campaign. However, many years later, I'm like, oh, yeah, Butterfinger. Bart Simpson. I knew exactly what you were talking about.
- [06:48]
C
That's so fun.
- [06:49]
A
Nothing is too small for a loving lately. I'm going to offer a shameless plug because I started a booktube channel within the last couple of weeks, and here's why. Through the podcast, I found that I really enjoy talking about books and offering reviews. Like, with my words, as I'm speaking to camera or speaking to the mic, as we are on the podcast, I thought I would really want to do. When I first started all of this, a blog, or, you know, at the time it was blogs or now Substack, but I don't enjoy writing out reviews. I like talking about them and I have a TikTok as well. I'm sort of wondering how long we will have that platform and so I thought I might transition this into another format that I have a little bit more control over. So, so far so good. I've only got four videos, but I've been really having fun coming up with ways to shoot things or what I want to shoot. And my plan hopefully is to come out with a video a week to begin with and then we'll see where it goes. There's also this whole world of YouTube shorts and a piece of me is like, what are you doing? You have many jobs. Why are you adding another thing to the repertoire? But I like to be busy and it like keeps my brain happy, so I'm going with it. Listeners. I think it'll be a good companion to the show. Nothing I'm sharing on my YouTube, like if I'm doing a reading vlog, it'll always come to the podcast first, but then you could hear a little bit of the behind the scenes or more real time reactions to the reading as I'm recording. So I think they could go together really well. I'm not going anywhere on any of the other places. It's just been a fun new distraction for me, a fun new hobby. If Hannah doesn't mind, you actually encouraged me to share it on the show before, so thank you for that. But we'll link it in the show notes and if you want to follow me over there, I would love it. So my loving lately is BookTube, specifically my channel on YouTube.
- [08:36]
C
I love that.
- [08:37]
A
Plug, plug, plug.
- [08:38]
C
No, I love finding new ways that work to share about books. And I think if talking, you know, seems to be the format that you're the most comfortable with, it might even be a little bit of a lower lift for you than some of the other more written ways to talk about books. I know you know, a lot of people have substacks, Tracy. I know you have a sub stack. And so I think regardless of how you like talking about books, it's fun to find new ways to do it.
- [09:03]
B
Yeah.
- [09:04]
A
And I love it because there's so many, I think different readers on different platforms, like different people gravitate toward different things. So it's been interesting. I'm like, gosh, you, I don't know who this person is, but You've been on YouTube for years. So I've been diving into it as well myself.
- [09:17]
C
Yeah, that's really fun. Well, my loving lately is something called a ME reader. And I have been getting these for my kiddos and I think that they'd be a really good holiday gift idea, which is partially why I'm. I'm bringing them close. Bringing this close to the holidays. This is. My kids have had them before, but I'm going to get them a couple of new ones this year. And these ME readers are great because they come with a collection and you can pick the theme. So there's Disney, Princess, Paw Patrol, Marvel, Whatever your kiddo is into that, you can pick whatever theme they would like. When they get it, they'll select the book that they want the ME reader to read aloud and then they'll be prompted to press buttons of specific shapes and colors as they go through the book. I think this is a great tool that fosters a love of reading and it teaches really cool learning concepts and also like listening concepts because they will have to engage with the instructions as they're moving along through the story. I think that these are just really fun way to also get your kid into maybe audiobooks or. I know my 6 year old has learned a lot of words through these because she listens along as she's seeing the words on the page. And she has really improved in her reading skill through this electronic reader. I think that they're great. I know there are a lot of other electronic reader options out there that I have seen, and I'm just so interested in these because I think that any way to foster a love of reading in our kids is a thumbs up for me. So this is something that I've loved for a while. I'm kind of reintroducing my kids to them and they've been loving it and so have I. And those are the ME Reader electronic readers.
- [11:10]
B
Cool.
- [11:11]
C
Yeah.
- [11:12]
A
Do you need a separate thing for it or is it just all in the book itself?
- [11:16]
C
So it comes in like a little box and there are. You get. I think it's eight books that come in one box. And then it comes with like a little tablet and you select the book that you want to read.
- [11:29]
A
Oh, okay.
- [11:29]
C
And then so you like select the book and then when you open it, it will. Then that little tablet will like lead you through the book and there'll be specific, like icons assigned to that story. It's kind of hard to explain, but.
- [11:41]
A
I'm looking at it now myself because I was like very into this because I want Lily to obviously be a reader.
- [11:48]
C
Yeah.
- [11:48]
A
I was wondering if I needed a separate thing But I guess not. It's all in the little box set.
- [11:52]
C
Yep, it's all in the little box set.
- [11:54]
A
Cool. I dig it.
- [11:55]
B
Sounds great.
- [11:56]
C
Yeah. I'm gonna get my, my three year old is very into paw patrol, so I'm gonna get him a paw patrol one for, for Christmas.
- [12:02]
A
Don't tell him I'm not listening. Right. Exactly.
- [12:05]
B
Put your podcast app down.
- [12:07]
A
This is it.
- [12:10]
C
Oh, man.
- [12:12]
A
So for book talk today, we're just gonna chat with Tracy. I'm so interested to know a little bit more about your reading life, your pod. Tell our listeners a little bit more about the Stacks.
- [12:22]
B
So the Stacks is a weekly book podcast. I started it in 2018. It kind of has had a few different iterations, but where we are now currently is there is an episode every Wednesday. The first Wednesday of the month. I talk to a guest who comes back the last Wednesday of the month for book club. So whoever's that first week will be back the last week to discuss a book. That first episode, sort of to get to know them, get to know their reading taste. And then the last week we, we do spoilers. We do it all. We dive into the book. The in between weeks, whether it's two or three, depending on the month, are author interviews, generally with new books, new authors. Sometimes I'll have someone on whose book's a little older, or sometimes I'll have a paperback release if I'm like really excited about it. Didn't get to it on time. But mostly it's things that have come out in the last few months and we talk about books and the world and culture and just sort of how we sort of use books as a lens to talk about all the other things. So that's the show. I'm sure we're going to get to this, but I love nonfiction, so there's a pretty good balance on my show. Fiction and nonfiction, depending on, depending on my current vibe, there might be more or less. But yeah, so this is, I think one of the, one of the things that I love is that I'm able to sort of explore all sorts of different ideas. And I kind of come to the show with a lot of curiosity. I have people on and I ask them questions like, why did you do that? Yeah, how did you do that? And I, and I will say, like, similar to your show, it's a show for readers. A lot of writers do listen to the show, but I'm a reader, I'm not a writer. I'm asking questions that readers want answered. I'm not asking about sentence structure. I'm asking about, like, you know, how did you write this? Like, was this hard?
- [13:59]
A
Right. Like, basic stuff that we want to.
- [14:01]
B
Know is that readers are thinking, like, as you're reading the book, you're like, why did they make this character so mean? Or whatever. You know, we talk about unlikable characters, we talk about, you know, putting yourself in the book, all these sorts of things, like sort of a nosy reader might be picking up on.
- [14:14]
C
Oh, I love that. And it's a really unique format too. And I like the distinction that you made of asking authors specific questions.
- [14:22]
A
Yes.
- [14:23]
C
About their writing, but, you know, more positioned toward readers. Because I do feel like if you're an avid reader, you are constantly asking questions like that of like, yeah, why did you do this? Or this character sucks. Like, why did you make them do that?
- [14:36]
A
So what inspired you to start the podcast?
- [14:39]
B
Okay, I'll tell you an abridged version of this story because it's sort of a long, convoluted story. But basically, I got back into reading in 2016. I'd been a reader. I lived in New York. When I moved to LA in 2012, I stopped reading because you're just like, not on the subway to read. It's just a harder. It's harder to read when you drive a car a lot. So in 2016, I was like, I'm gonna read more. I got back into reading in 2017. I read this book called Blood in the Water by Heather Ann Thompson. It's about the Attica prison uprising. It's phenomenal. Phenomenal. I won the Pulitzer. So I'm not like saying anything new, but it's like one of my all time faves. After I finished the book, I was like, I need to talk about this book with someone. And I asked my mom, and she was alive at the time, but she didn't like really remember it because she was in California. I asked some of our family friends, they also didn't really remember it. And I was like, let me see if there's a podcast about the book. And I went and there were two. One was like the New Yorker or something. It wasn't the New Yorker. And I cannot actually find the episode anymore. So I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something very, like, pretentious about the book. And like, they were saying things that I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I did not pick that up. And then the other one was a legal podcast. And because the book has a Lot of legal elements. It was, like, very in the weeds of the law. And I was like, I wish there was a book podcast that talked about these kinds of books, but, like, in the way that I want to talk about them. And so I was like, okay. And then a few months later, I was like, maybe I should start that book podcast.
- [16:03]
A
Yeah.
- [16:03]
B
So I decided to start it in early 2018, and then our first episode was in April 2018, and I eventually got to have Heather Ann Thompson on the show in 2021, and that was so cool. And we did the book for book club, which ended up being the fifth. Same month as the 50th anniversary of Attica. So it was, like, a really cool moment. And I was like, should I just stop the podcast now? I feel like I. I did what I needed to do.
- [16:28]
A
Yeah, right.
- [16:29]
C
Full circle, circle moment. Yeah.
- [16:31]
B
Yeah, it really was. But, yeah, so that's sort of the origin story, and that book is sort of the catalyst for everything.
- [16:37]
C
Tracy, I remember you talked about this book also, and I don't know where this fits into the timeline, but you brought this book to a what should I read next episode when you were talking to Anne Bogle. Because I remember I picked it up, and I did not read nonfiction at the time when I was listening to the episode, but I really enjoyed listening to that episode. And I remember being like, that sounds really interesting, though. Maybe I could get into it. I still haven't read it.
- [17:00]
B
Okay.
- [17:01]
C
But I want to. And maybe, you know, after hearing this full circle moment, that'll be the push that I need to finally get to this one. Because I. I still literally remember you talking about it years ago on that podcast.
- [17:13]
B
So that was probably in 2018. That was still. Or maybe 2019. It was pretty new on the show was before I had Heather and Thompson on, but I did. I mean, it's one of. I don't know what you guys call these books, but I have a term that I use that I say book of my life. And that's like a book that is, like. It's not necessarily a favorite book, though this one is. But it's like a book that is, like, quintessential to your human essence. Like, Charlotte's Web is a book of my life. You know, it's like. It is a favorite. I think you have to love it. But it also is just like one of those books that just, like, you hold it so near and dear to your heart. And I think in the case of Blood in the Water, it's a book of My life. Not only because I loved it, but also because it's sort of made the rest of my life possible. Like when I read it, I wasn't thinking like in eight years I'm gonna have a book podcast and like have gotten to talk to the author. But it was a book that like sparked something in me.
- [18:06]
A
It was a pivotal turning point. I must have heard that episode too cause I borrowed it in 2020, 2019. I did not take it out. Haven't read it, but it's on my tbr. I just love that. And so have you always been a nonfiction reader or did you get more into it with the show?
- [18:22]
B
I've always been a non fiction reader, especially in my adult life. But even as like a young person, I was reading adult non fictiony books. I was reading the books for a sign in school and stuff too. But I also like love a documentary. I've always loved a documentary. I just like true stories. I was saying to someone, I can't remember, I think maybe on my show I was like, yeah, you know, there's not a lot of ya, especially when I was a kid, for young people. That's non or like a lot of YA that's nonfiction. And so when I was young I used to like read sections of the encyclopedia. Like I just used to like flip open and be like ancient Greece, like.
- [18:58]
A
What the, what do we got here?
- [19:00]
B
Like okay, Sophocles or whatever. And I love, I. While I don't love true crime in its current iteration, like I don't listen to true crime podcasts, I don't really read true crime books anymore. I do love like major events, like cult related things. I love like government failure, catastrophes. So like books like that and documentaries like that I've always loved. I know a few, a few weeks ago on your show you guys were talking about Waco.
- [19:29]
A
Yeah.
- [19:29]
B
And you walk that watch that Waco documentary. Who at Hannah watched it?
- [19:33]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [19:34]
B
And you, you were like, Tina, you were like, oh, is there like an anniversary? And in fact there was 1993 was a big anniversary for the best part.
- [19:43]
A
Is I asked the question, immediately left my brain, didn't Google it. It's right here. I google it.
- [19:48]
B
It was 1993, was the, was the event in Waco. So last year I actually read there were three Waco books that came out last year and I read all three of them and then I had all three authors on in a mega like 90 minute Waco episode.
- [20:02]
A
Oh, amazing.
- [20:03]
B
I loved Waco as a kid. I was like so into it as like a teenager. And I didn't read any books. I just watched documentaries or whatever. And so that, like, I think a lot of those, like, culty stories and like, major fuck up stories are the things that sort of informed my love of nonfiction as an adult. Like, I remember when I lived in New York, I read Helter Skelter and was like, this is incredible, Charles, man. I didn't know a lot about that story. And now I've since read like eight books about it.
- [20:31]
A
You read all of the things about it?
- [20:33]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:34]
C
Helter Skelter gets in the weeds too.
- [20:36]
B
Yes, it does.
- [20:37]
C
That one is very informative.
- [20:40]
B
Yeah, it is. It's. I love it.
- [20:42]
C
I do, too.
- [20:43]
A
Have you ever listened to. You Must Remember this? They have a great series.
- [20:47]
B
I listened to the season. Yep. I did Murder Karina Longworth.
- [20:52]
A
Incredible.
- [20:53]
B
Isn't that her name? The host's name?
- [20:55]
A
I think so. I don't know. It's been a minute.
- [20:56]
B
Karina Longworth. And you must remember this.
- [20:59]
A
Yes, that's exactly right. I know they've got some podcast hosts really have that podcasty voice.
- [21:06]
B
Yeah.
- [21:07]
A
Can you give us another, like, major fuck up recommendation that comes to mind?
- [21:11]
B
Oh, my gosh, Yes, I can. Okay. So I was gonna do this one later, but I'll do it now, so then I can do something else later. There's a new book that came out this year called Challenger by Adam Higginbotham. He's the guy who wrote the Chernobyl book. Also major f ck up. But this book is about the Challenger disaster and it is so good, so. Oh, good. What is amazing about it? I get so hyped when I talk about this book. What is amazing about it is most likely, unless you're super young, you know what the Challenger disaster is? It is a space shuttle that went into space. There was a teacher on it. In about 75 seconds after it went up, it blew up in front of everyone on television and people watching at Cape Canaveral. You would think that this man wrote a book. He invented the story. Because the way that I was reading the book being like, there's no way this space shuttle is going to go. There's no way that these people will die. There's no way that NASA will let this happen. There's no way that, you know, because there was like a small malfunction on these things called an o ring and basically the weather made it so things were not going to go good. And the book takes you through the whole story. You get to like, meet the astronauts who are like, oh my God. Like, when after I read the book, I was like, saying all of their names. Like, I like, knew that moment. Oh my God, like Christa McAuliffe. But he paints this picture of this thing where you're like, oh, well, of course the good guys will come in in the end and stop this and everyone will be Saved and Krista McCall will go up in space in a week. And I just am so impressed when authors can do that where it's like, you know the ending. Like you, there is not a world in which you have not seen that image unless you're super young. And still I'm reading the last sections of the book, like, puking, because I'm like, don't do it, don't do it. Like, I'm like, sick to my stomach because I just know what's coming. That's, that is my sort of favorite genre is like investigative journalism. Major loss of life and, or institutional screw up.
- [23:08]
A
Oh, gosh, you really sold the hell out of that book.
- [23:11]
B
So it is so good and I'm so mad it's not getting more attention. It did win the Kirkus Prize, but I'm like, I couldn't believe it wasn't on the National Book Award list. I, I, I just, I, I love it. I love it.
- [23:25]
A
It came out this year, you said.
- [23:27]
B
Yeah, it came out in May.
- [23:28]
C
That's awesome. I love too when we can, you can just nerd out too about things that are specifically really interesting to you. And it's just so fun to hear you nerd out about, about this kind of stuff. I, I'm really enjoying it.
- [23:45]
A
Okay. I do have a question. Obviously, you're so passionate. You get so excited about nonfiction, which is really making me excited about nonfiction. What do you think makes it so some readers are intimidated by the genre?
- [23:57]
B
Okay, I have to ask you all that, actually, because I don't.
- [24:01]
A
Because you're like, I love it.
- [24:02]
B
I don't. I. Every time people ask me that, I'm like, I don't know, do you read nonfiction? Do you like it? So I would be curious to hear from you two why you don't read as much nonfiction or what it is that makes you not excited about it.
- [24:15]
C
I think that I do, I do get. This is a conversation that I have had actually with my husband all the time. Because every time I read a nonfiction book, especially if it's a topic I'm really interested in, or if I read a memoir or something like that, and I'm sitting in Bed crying at the end of it. And I look at my husband, and I'm like, why don't I read more nonfiction? And he's like, I don't know. Every time you do, you're like, this is the best book I've ever read in my entire life. And so, I don't know. I think that in the past, it has felt intimidating because I think so often nonfiction gets a reputation, or. I don't know, with, like, being. I don't want to say boring, because I don't think that that's true. But I. I think that it's maybe kind of put into this box of, like, US History or war books or military books, et cetera, which obviously is going to be interesting to a very small, select group of people, but it's not going to be interesting to the masses. So I don't know if maybe there's, like, a misconception that you can't find something that's interesting to you when reading nonfiction, but it's definitely a misconception, because, I mean, there's memoir, there's celebrity memoir. If you are someone that just wants to read, like, celebrity stories. I mean, we all, I feel like, have a celebrity that we really like and admire and topics, like, I feel like, as humans, we all have those niche topics that we're super interested in. And I promise you, there's nonfiction books on it. So I don't know. I. I would say that I think that I'm more intimidated by nonfiction outside of memoir, because I just haven't read a lot of it. And so I think that I probably just need to read more so that I kind of have. I don't know, have more of an idea of what I. What I like and what topics I am interested in.
- [26:10]
A
But what about.
- [26:11]
C
What about you, Tina?
- [26:12]
A
Yeah, same. I, frankly, I do think I am one that is like, oh, this is gonna be boring, or this is gonna take a lot of my mental space. And I don't know if I have the capacity right now to focus on this, but I could focus on this dumb thriller that I've read probably 14 books that are very similar. But I think that's what I. I go into it with this misconception that it's going to be slow, it's going to be dense, and some books are like that. But, like, I can dnf. That's not. I can always put it aside if it's not really capturing me. I think, too, you make a great point, Hannah, that the more we read in this space, the more you figure out what it is that you like, and then you start finding and looking for recommendations like that. So I am, like, now really into, like, for example, the book Bad Blood by John Carreyrou. John Caryu.
- [26:58]
B
Yes.
- [26:59]
A
Carry. You loved that one. And I feel like I. I think that actually spurned me to read a lot more of those types of books in whatever year that came out. And then I got away from it. I don't know. Maybe it's just something that ebbs and flows.
- [27:11]
B
One of the things I want to say back to both of you, because that is something that I do hear from readers. It's like, oh, I think it's going to be boring, or I'm not going to like it. And I just want to remind people that I'm sure there's a lot of fiction books that feel similarly to you. Like, there are some times where I'll pick up a fiction book and be like, I'm asleep. I am so bored by this or this situation. Or, like, because I think there is a muscle with nonfiction that you have to sort of flex, especially if it's outside of memoir, but even within memoir, where you sort of have to learn what you like, but also how to read these books. And I think, like, I personally love narrative nonfiction, which is a lot of the stuff that I'm describing right now. But I also do, like, I'll read an academic book on an issue to be like, how do we get here? Right? Like, I'm not. I'm not scared of feeling this. I think this is going to sound, quite frankly, like, I think I'm gonna say something a little more bluntly than most people would say about themselves. But, like, I'm not scared of feeling stupid when I read a book. Like, I don't. I sometimes am like, oh, I know none of this information. Like, I have to slow down. And that is not scary to me. That's actually kind of exciting. And I think sometimes if people can let go of that part of it of, like, it doesn't have. Not every book has to be an easy read. And sometimes I feel that way. Like, when I read Toni Morrison, I'm like, I'm, frankly, too stupid to read this book. And I really have to slow down, and I really have to think about it, and it's not gonna be the same feeling that I have when I read something that's, like, feels more like candy, right? Like, sometimes you do have to just, like, eat broccoli. And sometimes you can eat Butterfinger, and, like, you can't really eat both or one only. And so I feel like if people, like, can let go a little bit of that intimidation feeling and just come to the work and be like, I'm too stupid for this, and, like, let it go, that you'll find out that you're actually probably not. Like, when Blood in the Water came to my house, I ordered it because it was a Pulitzer winner. And I love the Pulitzer Prize. And non fiction and history. I think it's one of my favorite prizes. I always love it. And so I ordered it and it came and I was like, this is a huge book. I don't want to read this. This is really intimidating. I don't. I'm not gonna do it. I'm too scared. And then I don't know why I picked it up, but I did. And I ended up being like, this reads like fiction. This reads like butter. It goes down so smooth. Like, it is just such a smooth read. You almost wouldn't believe that it's written by, like, a historian journalist, because it's such an easy read. So I. I do challenge people to, like, I understand the preconceived notions because I have a lot of those around, like, literary fiction. Like, it's doing, like, a book that's on the Booker prize list. I'm like, ew, no, I never want to read that. It's too boring. But I do think that sometimes we go into it, like, and we're either like, too hard on ourselves or maybe like, being too self important. And it's like, just. It's okay if you hate it. You hate it.
- [29:54]
A
Like, you'll be fine, right?
- [29:56]
C
Yeah, I like that.
- [29:57]
A
You're inspiring me. I just wrote down so many things. I feel like, so activated. I'm like, no, you're right. And I think some people are afraid to be bored. They are. They, like, kind of doubt themselves. Like, they'll actually understand the material. I think some people, frankly, are deeply uncurious and they sort of don't want to do the work when reading. And that's fair too. You know, I can get that way sometimes myself. But yeah, I'm so excited to have this come out to our listeners. Cause I'm like, I know I'm not gonna be the only one that's like, okay, like, let me pick up nonfiction. Like, what are we reading next?
- [30:26]
C
I think, too, to your point, Tracy, about giving yourself the time to be dumb. And I think, too, even just being patient with yourself, too, as you're reading, Like, I think about this is Kind of a separate example. But when you pick up, like, a high fantasy book and you first get into it, you really have to give yourself time to get through. You feel dumb when you're first starting it because you're like, I don't know these people. I don't know the world. I don't know the politics or the magic system, et cetera. But typically, if you keep going with it by, like, 50%, all of a sudden you're just like, dude, like, screw that guy. And I love this person. And I think that we could probably give ourselves the space to do that with nonfiction, too, because it's not gonna make sense when we first go into it, especially if it's a topic that we aren't familiar with or don't know a lot about. And by the end of the book, we probably are going to have learned something new and we're maybe going to be more curious about something. And, hey, we might still be a little bit dumb on it, but now we can read more about it and have a little more context and background. So for sure, I like that.
- [31:31]
B
And I just want to say there are some really good war books. Okay, Hannah, I know you sound. I love a war book. I do. There are certain wars.
- [31:39]
A
I'm bringing a war book today. I really am. And I'm thinking about one of the characters. I mean, he's a real person, but he is such a jerk. Oh, jerk is like, I'm peeing clean with my verbiage. Because I'm like, oh, my God, you were the literal worst. I'm still like, my blood was boiling when I was reading about this guy and what he did to his family members. So I'm really excited and energized by this conversation. I'm also thinking about sort of what's happening in our current political climate. I wonder if you have any book recommendations to share with our listeners that sort of go along with that?
- [32:09]
B
Yes, I do. Of course. Of course I do. So here's what I'll say. There's sort of two buckets of how I think about reading politically or, like, reading towards the political moment. There is, like, books on topics, right? Like, there's a new Jessica Valenti book that I love called Abortion, and it's all about why abortion is a popular thing, why people support it, why it's good, and also how to sort of, like, counteract misinformation or talking points from the right about, you know, there's no such thing as a good abortion. All of these things. She goes into it, she, she refers to it as arming the choir as opposed to preaching to the choir. She's like, this is my audience. It's people who are fired up. So there's those kind of books on the other side. There's a lot of books about history, about government, books that are talking about the past that are so instructive for the future and the current moment. I think, you know, people understand, like history repeats itself. But I don't think you can fully understand how very, very repetitive these things are if you don't read about the past. So that's how I would set up folks like you could go either way. I write a monthly column for she reads Dot com. And in my column this entire year, every month I focused on a different issue that I. That was important during the election. So there's an abortion one, there is an immigration one, there's a prison one. After the attempted assassination of Donald Trump, we did a political violence one where we talked about sort of the history of political violence. And I recommend five to 12 books each month, so you can find all of those. And that's like a really great resource, I think, for folks who are like, I want to read specifically about issues prison, climate change. Like we did. I don't think we did climate change, health care. I don't know. We did a lot. We did 10, I think.
- [33:55]
A
Yeah.
- [33:55]
B
Anyways, so that exists. I definitely would say that abortion book, I would, I would read. There's a book called what if We Get It Right by Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson that's all about climate change that I am super duper championing right now. I know you two will love it because I know you both are audiobook girlies as well, as am I. The physical book is fantastic. It has illustrations. It is beautiful. The audiobook is unreal. And I'll set up the book like this. It's all about, what if we get climate change right? What if we figure out how to deal with farming? What if we figure out how to deal with investment? And what Ayanna does is she interviews people in 20 different spaces. So there's one about design, about like, what does it look like to build climate friendly homes or buildings or spaces or to include the climate in that design process. There's one about Hollywood where she interviews Franklin Leonard. And the guy, I think his name's Adam McKay, who made the movie Don't look up about what does it look like if climate change becomes part of popular culture and our films and television. And on the audiobook, every Interview is actually played for you. So it's like a mini podcast on each of these topics. It is fantastic. And this is a book, love, that totally restructured how I was thinking about climate change, but also activism in general. Like, what is possible? What is the value of, like, hope versus the value of joy? What can we be doing? What already exists? Where do we need to do the work? So this is a book that I would definitely point people to that is more prescriptive about the current moment. And then on the sort of like, historical side, not to put too fine a point on it, but you should read about the Nazis. You should. There's a lot of books on them talking about war books. I mean, you could read Erik Larson's in the Garden of Beasts. People love that book. I liked it. I thought it was a little boring. So I don't want to go like full fledged in the Garden of Beasts on people. But I like Erik Larson. I met him in an elevator and totally fangirled out.
- [35:53]
A
Oh, fun.
- [35:53]
B
I was like, oh my God. And he was like, okay. I just don't think he has, like, younger women, like screaming like Nazis at him in an elevator. Being like, I'm one Japan. He was sort of like, I can only imagine. Yeah, my energy and his energy were very different. But I think there's like some really great, you know, books about the lead up to, you know, like, Hitler leading up to taking power, which definitely feels like a very pointed way to read this moment. And I think there's a lot of other things going on. So there's this book called Reign of terror. How the 911 era destabilized America and Produced Trump. This book is fascinating. It explains the sort of Middle east relationship to the United States and how, like, everything that we're seeing now has been planted since 911 and before. And it's just like, if you want to understand the history of this moment of, like, how did we get here? This is an incredible book to do that with. So that those are kind of my two kinds of recommendations. There's plenty of books on either side that do that work for you. And some are really, really good and juicy. Some of the things on the more like, prescriptive side can be a little denser. Like, I love the new Jim Crow, but that's a hard read. That's not a super easy read. It's incredibly valuable and worth your time. But some of those books might feel a little bit more like that.
- [37:18]
A
That's perfect. Yeah, Those were the exact sort of books I was Trying to spit out and like, you know, if you're wanting to understand the moment, understand what's going on here. Yeah.
- [37:28]
C
And I love that you mentioned your column too, because I think that's going to be a really great resource. I'll make sure to link that in our show Notes Tracy's column for she Reads. Because I'm sure that that's going to be a great resource for people who want to read about certain topics and things like that. So.
- [37:44]
A
Yeah. And I mean, so many recommendations. You just said there's what, 10 on each column? So plenty of work, plenty of reading to be had.
- [37:51]
C
Absolutely.
- [37:52]
A
Something else that you, that I had read from the pitch email was that you mentioned that you think it's critical for reviewers to post negative book reviews. This is sort of a hard left shift, but I'm dying to have you talk more about that.
- [38:06]
B
I heard you guys talk about low rated books on your show and you guys kind of got into this. And I think mostly I align with you, but I think of my job as like a book personality, critic, reviewer, podcast, or whatever you want to call me.
- [38:20]
A
Influencer.
- [38:20]
B
I don't know. People have different names. For me as a book person is to communicate to my audience what books I love and what books I don't love. Now, I don't think that my opinion is that important, important to any one person. However, if you are part of my community and you are coming to me for book recommendations, I think it is imperative that you know not only what gets me excited, but also what I think sucks. Because how will you know where you fit in on my spectrum? Right. I was talking to a friend. I used to work in the theater and I used to always read Ben Brantley's New York Times reviews. I don't always agree with Ben Brantley, but I almost always, by the like, you know, by the end of his tenure and by the time I was leaving New York, I could tell you exactly what Ben Brantley would write about just about every Broadway show. Not because I'd seen the show, but because I understood who Ben Brantley was and what he likes. And I hope for that for myself and for my audience, that there's a very clear indication of, like, who I am and what I like and how you fit into that. And so I think it's important to do that work. I also think on a more like pop culture level, being able to talk crap about books publicly is good for books. It is what we do with television. It is what we do with movies. It is what we do with music, it is what we do with musicians. It's how we connect around art. And this idea that like writing a book is hard and so we need to be nice because authors are on the Internet is insane to me. So are filmmakers, so are actors, so is every other person. Also writing a book is hard, but like so is working at McDonald's. People talk. People are mean to their waiters and waitresses and that's a hard job too. Or a bartender or, or the people who work at the chicken plant or whatever it is. So like I think this idea that authors deserve more kindness than anyone else because the work that they do is hard is not only like totally ill founded, but is also unfair to the cultural relationship that we should be having with art. And like, I'm not trying to hurt authors feelings. I never want to be mean. I understand, like I'm trying to be generous with everyone, but I also understand that my job is to talk about books and to do that honestly and to do that in a place that is exciting and, you know, enriching to other people's lives. Like that is what the role of the critic is. And I don't ever want to get in a situation where I feel like I'm more concerned about protecting an author's feelings than I am about broadly promoting books and literature and community around those things.
- [40:47]
A
Yeah, really well said.
- [40:49]
C
Yeah, really well said. And I, well, I love, I just love how passionate you are about this. To your point, it is a way that we kind of brand ourselves as people who, you know, people listen to us and they care about. And again, I, I don't think that my opinion is, is important either. But there are people that listen to our podcasts and you know, read our reviews or listen to our stuff and they do want to know what we do and don't like and it'll give them a better idea about what they do and don't like. And I know that I have a lot of people that I listen to in the bookish space that I even really admire, but we do not have similar tastes. But I do know based on how they talk about a book, they might be really giving a book a hard time. And I'm reading that review or listening to them talk about it and I'm like, that sounds way up my alley like that. And based on what I know about their taste and mine, something that they don't like could be totally a book for me. And I think it also kind of forces consumers to know themselves and do some self Reflecting so that they can, you know, go into someone's opinion, having kind of a firm understanding of their own and how they can then approach their reading from there.
- [42:00]
B
Yeah. And I just want to. I just want to add this because I don't want. I don't want people to think that I'm, like, talking crap about books just to do that. I actually think it really serves a purpose. And I think, like, in the way that you could watch a TV show and be like, that was so bad. Like, the acting was bad. Or you could be like, oh, my God, the acting was amazing, but the script was a nightmare. Like, it was too many episodes or whatever that thing is. And how it's, like, easy to do and it feels comfortable. And we're just able to have these conversations with people in our lives. And it's not like a condemnation of television. I want to have that for books. I want to be able to be like, oh, I read X, Y, and Z, and it was way too long, and it was a total mess, but that one scene was amazing. And be done. And I don't want it to be like, oh, I hate the author. Or like, books are failing. Like, I just want it to be like, how we talk about all other pop culture where you'll listen to an album and be like, there's three good songs. That's it. And like, it's not like, it's not like, oh, this artist is a terrible musician. It's just like, there's three good songs on this album, and I'll listen to them 500 times in the next week, week, and I'll never listen to it again. And that's totally fine. And, like, I think books deserve that kind of attention because I think that's how books become more part of pop culture in a way that they used to be. When people feel comfortable and confident discussing them casually and not like, you have to write a dissertation. I hate when people are like, oh, I said this before, but I'm saying it in a different way. But I hate when people are like, oh, I didn't really get it. So I can't tell. I can't give the opinion. It wasn't for me. I'm like, no, even if it wasn't for you, I want to hear your opinion as a person. This book wasn't for. It doesn't mean that I'm going to hold your opinion with a lot of weight. But I'm curious, like, why wasn't it for you? Like, say more. And I think all of those things are important. And I think, like, by being too passive in the way that we talk about books, it is not good for books. It is really not good for the industry. It is not good for cultural commentary. It is not good for art broadly. Like, we need to feel comfortable doing that. And so I do put myself out there, and I do do it pretty loudly and boldly. That being said, there have been repercussions. I have had authors try to get me uninvited from things because I didn't like their book. Which the first time it happened, I was like, this is crazy. I posted about it on Instagram. I didn't even do it on the show. But I think, like, that is important too. Like, I think public feuds are great. I love a public feud. Feud. Like, I. I just think all of it is part of the culture. And when books get too precious, they get removed from the culture because it becomes a thing that other people don't feel like they can enter and access.
- [44:32]
C
Yeah, I. And also, like, if an author is gonna behave that way, does that reflect on you poorly or the author?
- [44:40]
B
You know, I mean, it reflects on them poorly. But I have never said who the person was because I'm waiting to get interviewed by Oprah. Because when Oprah interviews me, I'll say it.
- [44:47]
A
That will be okay. Well, I'm gonna manifest that for you.
- [44:50]
B
Yeah. One day when I have, like, just, like, a huge platform and I have just, like, Barack Obama asked me, I'll be like, well, President Obama, it was xyz.
- [45:03]
C
Yeah.
- [45:04]
B
Because that's what kind of petty I am.
- [45:06]
C
And to be clear, I do not think that that reflects on you poorly. I think that it's just an interesting conversation of, like, how authors even act and respond in the space, too. And, you know, reviews are for readers.
- [45:19]
A
The reviews aren't for the officers are for readers. They're for the readers. Right.
- [45:22]
B
And also, like, people criticize me all the time. And do you know what I do? I go to my group chat and I say this. Yeah, you know what said this about me? And I'm going to pretend like I never saw it, but I saw it. You know, like, there is. If as people who put work into the world, whether an author, a musician, whatever it is, if you are a creative who puts things into the world, you have to be prepared for pushback. You have to be prepared for people not to like it. What you do with that information is up to you. If you want to, you know, throw a fit on Instagram, that's totally your right. To do. But, like, you cannot expect that your presence in the space means that people should be protective of your feelings. That's just not how art works. When art goes into the world, it is for other people. And especially a book. I'm like, what are you gonna do, rewrite it? Like.
- [46:06]
A
Like, it's done.
- [46:08]
B
Like, leave me alone.
- [46:09]
C
It's done.
- [46:09]
B
At least if someone critiques my podcast, I can be like, next time. I could do better next week.
- [46:13]
A
There's some constructive feedback, but I like reviews that are critical, that have detail. I don't like when I was like, this book sucked. I'm like, well, give me some more information about that. What do you mean, it sucked? Like, that is never for me.
- [46:23]
B
But people don't know how to write critically because they're not seeing examples from the people who are doing it. Like, so many people on Bookstagram, it's their hobby, right? Like, this is. I mean, this is our. Our job, our work. Like, we do this, like, regularly. There's a commitment to what we're doing, and so I think we have a responsibility to dispel. How do you do this? How do you say something critical publicly, Kindly or generously or specifically? Because a lot of people don't know how to do it, and they're scared and they're intimidated, and other people aren't doing it, and so they just like, I didn't like it, but I can't say why. Like, so I feel like we have, like, people like us. We have a responsibility to do it and to, like, to show people how it should look or how it could look, so that they feel comfortable doing it, too, in their own communities and with their own friends and their book club, et cetera.
- [47:09]
A
I'm taking notes because I do share books. I do share about books that I didn't enjoy, but sometimes I'm like, should I bring this to the podcast? Do people really want to hear about it? But you're making a very good case for why we should have that, you know, available as a part of, like, all of the other stuff that we're putting out together.
- [47:25]
B
Yeah.
- [47:25]
C
And a good case, too, for other people who read. And again, to your point, where it's just a hobby, but maybe you do share those reviews, whether that's on Goodreads or Amazon or Bookstagram, et cetera. Even if it is casual, you can say, this book sucked, and you don't have to write a very flowery review. You can just be like, I really didn't like the characters, and I'm someone That has to root for a character, and there weren't any people to root for. So I didn't like it. It doesn't have to be, you know, any bigger than that. And so I think it's also a good case for people who might be feeling like, well, I don't know, you know how to write well. And it's like, well, leave that to the authors. And.
- [48:01]
A
Well, that's true. Right.
- [48:03]
B
I don't know how to write well either. My reviews are very straightforward. It's like a paragraph of what I liked. Whatever. I didn't like the end on my Goodreads, I write, like, three sentences because my Goodreads, if you follow me there, which, like, don't take it too seriously, because it's the first thing I do after I finish a book is quickly just plug in my thoughts. So it is literally, like, I liked this really good main character was way too long. That's it. Right. It's just, like, a place for me to.
- [48:28]
A
That's actually. You read one of my books that I'm bringing here in a minute, and that's basically a review. And I read on Goodreads.
- [48:33]
B
That's what I read on Goodreads. I'll flesh it out for Instagram or for substack. But that's just because sometimes it takes me months to review something. So I'm like, what did I think immediately?
- [48:42]
A
No, I think that's a good way to do it. I do want to share some specifics. So normally in our show, we do book talk, and then we share some reviews on books that we did read for the show. I'll kick it off because I. The book that I was referencing in terms of you having read it as well is the Demon of A Saga of Hubris, Heartbreak, and Heroism at the dawn of the Civil War by Eric Larson.
- [49:04]
B
Wait, I didn't read that.
- [49:05]
A
You didn't? Did I hallucinate? I think maybe it's my other book. Because your reviews always pop up hot, like on my thing. Because I follow you on Goodread. Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.
- [49:15]
B
No, no, don't worry. I was just like, I don't have an opinion on this.
- [49:18]
A
It is. Okay, but you did mention Eric Larson, and this one is. It brings to life the five months between the election of Abraham Lincoln and the start of a civil war. And it talks about sort of all of the drama and all the things that. To what started the Civil War, specifically, It's set in November 1860, and then it ends at the following in April, when the Confederate troops in Charleston attacked Fort Sumter to start the Civil War. I am not typically a person that's drawn to war books, although this specific time period, I don't know why. Actually, I do. I read a book called Booth by Karen Joy Fowler, and I was fascinated by that. And so I sort of was curious about this time period. And if you've ever read Erik Larson before, you know that he is no stranger to deep research. And so he reviews historical documents and letters, and he really, really sets the stage for the reader. I think you don't need to know much about the players in order to get acquainted with this book. Cause he will give you the details. I think it's fascinating how he's able to do that. But I will say I did find myself getting a little bit lost in the minutiae, particularly toward the end. It's a 592 page book, and by the end I'm like, okay, I don't need to know, you know, like, what he at. Like, if he had indigestion, like, truly. I'm like, can we just get to the point? But I really enjoyed what he had to say. I picked this up early November, and I was reading it throughout our current election and then thereafter, and it was a very interesting companion. It sort of helped me. Cause I thought, okay, you had mentioned this earlier. You know, it's helpful to read nonfiction because you get to see, like, history repeats itself. And I definitely did see parallels Larson does as well. He opens it in his introduction and talks about this period in his book. And also from the January 6, 2021 insurrection. And I can see why he did that. I'm glad he included it. I think it sort of spoke to. I think some people had took umbrage with the fact that he brought that in because they're like, basically stick to the history. And I thought, no, I think it would be. He would be remiss to not draw that parallel. Another thing that I didn't love so much with this book is he's talking a lot about slavery, but he's not. He did not have any real points of view from black people. Most are presented as sort of this nameless victims collective. And I would have liked if he would have provided some more nuance. I am glad that they updated the language for the audio. Some words that were used at that time were redacted for the recording, which I was so, so happy about. There are some real, real motherfuckers during this time period, including this man Hammond, who had a. Sorry, he. It talks about his sexual abuse of his four teenage nieces and I'm just sitting there like pulling my hair out like, oh my God, men have always been terrible. I got it.
- [52:04]
B
Okay.
- [52:05]
A
So anyway, it was eye opening, it was interesting and overall I do recommend it. For me, the audio was key. Will Patton, who narrates a lot of Stephen King books, was the narrator. So it really allowed me to sink in and sort of let some of the details I didn't care about wash over me. Would not have gone through this without the audiobook narrator. So overall I recommend it. I gave it four stars. This one is the demon of A Saga of Hubris, heartbreak and Heroism at the dawn of the Civil War by Erik Larson.
- [52:33]
C
Oh, great review. Done. And a good example of a war book that is, you know, offers some interesting insights and might be interesting for our listeners. So my first book that I'm going to bring is what My Bones Know by Stephanie Fu. This is a Memoir and this is in this memoir, journalist Stephanie Fu offers a raw exploration of her diagnosis with complex ptsd. She draws from her own experiences of childhood abuse, abandonment, and her lasting scars of trauma. She is a successful radio producer, she had a job at this American Life and she really seemed to have it all. She had an award winning career, a loving relationship and a bright future. But beneath the surface, she battled debilitating pain, panic attacks and a lot of emotional turmoil. And after receiving a diagnosis of complex ptsd, she embarks on a journey to understand her condition and really reclaim her life. She combines deeply personal reflections with a lot of really rigorous research and she delves into the science of trauma. She explores the inherited pain of her immigrant roots and she seeks healing through innovative therapies and a lot of self reflection and self discovery. I really loved how this memoir was structured. Specifically, she wrote this book in three parts. The first part of the memoir, she takes you through her childhood and her experiences with her parents. And in the second part of the novel, she's really unpacking how her childhood experience shaped the way she navigates her life. And then in the latter half of the memoir, she includes transcripts between her and her therapist as she embarks on this journey of healing and recovery. If you listen to the audiobook like I did, you will actually get to hear those live conversations between her and her therapist. And this was a really deeply personal and beautiful addition to the audiobook production. I mean, you're really with her as she is like live processing these conversations that she is having with her therapist as she discovers and unpacks this diagnosis of cptsd. And as she pieces together her past, she uncovers really just the resilience of humans, but also kind of the misconception that we move on from trauma. But instead, she kind of shows us how to move with it. I thought that this was just a really unique and courageous memoir. I think that it offers hope but also a lot of hard things. And life is both. Although I think definitely content warnings should be kept in mind going into this one. It is ultimately a book that I think more people should read. And I loved it. So that was what My Bones Know by Stephanie Fu.
- [55:32]
B
I love that book. We did it. I interviewed Stephanie on the podcast and she's wonderful.
- [55:37]
C
I need to listen to that episode. She's a great follow on Social too.
- [55:40]
B
She's great. She's so great. It's funny, I think. I'm pretty sure I'm. I'm pretty sure I'm remembering this correctly. I was one of the first interviews she did before the book came out, and she was really nervous. She was like, I'm very nervous about talking about this book. She did great. But it was like, so it was such a, like, sweet, tender moment for.
- [55:55]
C
Her to say that before.
- [55:57]
B
But yes, that looks very good.
- [55:58]
C
That's really special too, that you got to interview her kind of at a vulnerable time and I don't know, hear her initial thoughts. So that's cool.
- [56:08]
B
Okay, I'm gonna give you some backlist. Okay. I'm gonna give you some, like, gateway sort of non fiction books that I loved before. I was like, really going deep, intense nonfiction. I mean, it's intense, but not like academic y.
- [56:23]
C
Perfect.
- [56:23]
B
I'm gonna give you a book by my. I say. I say this person. This is my joke that I say. I say, John Krocauer walked so Patrick Radden Keefe could run. Okay, so I'm gonna give you John Kracauer. John Kracauer is my first boyfriend of nonfiction. Patrick Raden Keefe is my current boyfriend of nonfiction. I'm going to give you Into Thin Air. This is a classic narrative Nonfiction about a 1996 expedition to climb Mount Everest where people died. Okay, that's not a spoiler. The book starts there. It's again, one of those books where it's like, you know the ending and yet you're really hoping that that person that you're falling in love with didn't die. But sadly, a lot of them did. The book is fantastic. What John Kracauer does That I think was sort of new when was writing, but now feels pretty standard in the narrative. Non in some parts of narrative nonfiction is that he gives you sort of an intimate story of one or two people, but then also spirals out further to tell you about bigger issues, whether it's like the industry of climbing Mount Everest in this case. But in some of his other books, he has a book about this, like, murder that happened with a fundamentalist Mormon. Mormon group. So he talks about, you know, that one's called under the Banner of Heaven. Also amazing. I recommend all of his books. Okay, so if you're not sure, I.
- [57:38]
A
Was going to ask if you had any other.
- [57:39]
B
Yeah, the only one I don't love is into the Wild, but I read that when I was much younger. And I don't think I could really like vibe with Chris McCann McCandbell's. I think that's his name. Anyways, so this one is about Mount Everest. It's about the industry of climbing. It's about the ways that people used to climb as, like, seasoned climbers. And then it became this thing where you could, like, buy your way onto the mountain and the Sherpas would do all the work for you. And so a lot of people that maybe weren't prepared were climbing Mount Everest. And it's just so propulsive. You do not want to put it down. You'll never want to put it down. You'll want the book to be a thousand pages. It's sadly, like maybe 300, I don't know. But it is so, so good. It is so, so propulsive. And while it is nonfiction, it feels like you get a lot of the joy of, like, a thriller in the more intimate parts. But then you also get a lot of the information about, like, the cultural elements and the historical elements. When he sort of zooms out, that is that kind of zoom in, zoom out thing. I just, I love when authors do that. So this is a thousand star review out of five.
- [58:43]
C
And yeah, this is an author I actually haven't read before. And I do. I do really want to. My mom has been screaming at me to read under the Banner of Heaven. That's what it's called, right?
- [58:54]
B
It's phenomenal.
- [58:55]
C
Yeah.
- [58:55]
B
My personal favorite, though, is his book about Pat Tillman called When Men Win Glory. That's actually my favorite. But I feel like Into Thin Air is the most entry point.
- [59:07]
A
Crock Hour.
- [59:08]
C
Perfect. Well, a few recommendations. Into Thin Air, step one. And then read everything else. Sounds like.
- [59:16]
A
Yeah. And then get into Patrick Radden Keefe.
- [59:18]
B
And then again, oh my God. And then watch Patrick Radden Keefe do an interview and be like, he's so cute. He's so nice. He did my show. He was so nice. I'm in love with him. And I still randomly slide into his DMs to say things. And he always responds kind.
- [59:33]
A
Do you remember we had a good time together?
- [59:35]
B
Yes. I'm like, hi, boyfriend.
- [59:37]
A
Hi, how are you? Oh, I love this so much. Well, my next book is one a guest that you've had because my next book is There's Always this Year on Basketball and Ascension by Hanif Abduraki. And I just finished this brand new. I was actually going to bring a different book that I had prepared, but I put this one on maybe two years, two days ago on audio. I could not stop listening. I and here's the thing. I'm gonna preface this by saying I'm not going to do a good job reviewing this book because I don't know how to talk about it.
- [60:10]
B
It's impossible.
- [60:10]
A
He doesn't know how to talk about it because he's and I feel like the things I'm going to say are gonna be like, I don't know about that, but trust me, trust and believe. Just, just get this book because it's incredible. It is a memoir. He is an author, a poet, and a critic, and most of all, an at his heart, an Ohioan. He grew up in Columbus in the 1990s and witnessed a golden era of basketball, one in which legends like LeBron James were forged and countless others weren't. And he talks about his lifelong love for the game and what happens to the people that make it. What happens to the people that leave their community? What happens to the people that don't want to leave their community. And he just talks about basketball. But it's also about much, much more. It's about just all of the things that sort of go into pursuing. I swear to you, the more that I think about this book, I feel like the harder it is for me to describe read this book. First of all, I did the audio. Incredible. Really well narrated. He does a great job narrating it. I also want to get a print copy. And what I said on social media yesterday was I if I get a print copy, I'm going to need to highlight the entire thing because everything is so lyrical. Just looking at a couple of the quotes I highlighted. One is about grief. One is about what happens when someone you used to love moves on without you. He talks about death. He talks about basketball a lot. Yes. I happen to really enjoy basketball. We also love LeBron James in this house. So for me, I was like, yes, I'm enjoying this. Even though we're Chicagoans still, LeBron for us is our favorite basketball player. But at any rate, this book has a really unique structure and I very much enjoyed it. He breaks it up into quarters, into pregame halftime timeouts, and I just can't help but think, how on earth did you structure this? You literally are a genius. Like what I'm hearing now, you are just on a different plane than so many people. The way he structures sentences is so fascinating. I found myself going back and like, listening to the way that he would choose to phrase things. I cried a couple times. I do not think you need to love basketball in order to love this book, but if you do, I think that'll give you an extra boost. But I love this book. I highly recommend it to anybody. I'm also delighted to see that he has two other books that I had seen floating around but didn't pay much attention to because I'm not a non fiction person typically, but I will be for this author. This book is There's Always this Year on Basketball and Ascension by Hanif Adurakib.
- [62:36]
C
Oh, I love.
- [62:37]
B
I love the neve.
- [62:38]
A
I was hoping he would smoke.
- [62:40]
B
Yes. No, he's a dream. I actually was lucky enough to do his LA book event.
- [62:45]
A
Oh, amazing.
- [62:46]
B
For this book. And it was amazing. But I'm also a basketball fan and in the book, I'm sure you remember, there's the section where he replays like moment by moment, the chase down block against the warriors. And I'm a Warriors fan. And so I started our event and it starts where he's talking about his enemies. And I started our book event by saying, you are now my enemy. Because you knew I was gonna do this and you knew I had to read the book to do this with you and you decided to include pages of trauma for me.
- [63:18]
A
Literal pages. So great.
- [63:20]
B
Yeah. I was just like, how dare you? No, he's so great. This book is so great. I personally, I'm a huge fan. So let me just preface it with I love everything. I personally love a little Devil in America even more. It's about black performance. And it's. There's so many. The way he writes about music, which you get a little bit in, there's always. This year is unlike anybody else. He'll. He will make you hear a song you have heard a hundred thousand times and you'll Be like, I never noticed that. I never noticed that cowbell. Or like, I never noticed that, like little tweak in the voice. And he does that throughout this book too. He talks about moments in basketball where you're like, I've seen this clip a thousand times. And also all of his books are about grief. He like sneakily is just like one of our great grief writers and he couches it in like music or basketball. But really it's like being present on earth with the people that you love most and also understanding that those people will not always be there. And the people that you've already lost, how they are there and are. I just, he's just like genius, Genius.
- [64:17]
A
Truly.
- [64:18]
C
Little Devil in America is one that's on my TBR for this month actually. And music is my wheelhouse. So I'm, I'm really excited to read that one. It was shortlisted or one shortlisted.
- [64:32]
B
So all. So he has, he has four nonfiction books and then I think two poetry collections and his last three nonfiction books have been long listed and the two before this have been shortlisted for the National Book Award. But he's never one. So justice for Hanif.
- [64:48]
C
He needs justice. We need to change that.
- [64:51]
B
Yeah.
- [64:51]
C
Okay. My next book is Dinner for Vampires by Bethany Joy Lentz. So this is the new, it's a new release, I believe it was a book of the month pick for November. I wanted to include a celebrity memoir for this episode because I do.
- [65:05]
B
The pink one.
- [65:06]
C
Yeah, it's like, it's like pinkish orange. Orange, Yeah. I don't have the physical book. I listened to this one on audio. But yes, I wanted to include a celebrity memoir for this episode because I do feel like if you're someone who doesn't read a lot of memoir or biography or nonfiction, these can be a good starting point, especially if it's a celebrity you've connected with or you've watched their movies or their shows, et cetera. This is a pretty buzzy memoir. I feel like for this, you know, time of year, like I said, it was a book of the month pick and I feel like it's on a lot of people's radars and I'm glad that I could be a part of the buzz. So in this memoir, Bethany Joy Lentz, star of One Tree, Hillary, really pulls back the curtain on a pretty hidden chapter of her life. She had a nearly decade long entanglement in a religious cult that was disguised as a faith based community. And she goes through and recounts how at the height of her career, she found Solace in what started as a Bible study group for Hollywood Creatives. And she was drawn into. She ended up being drawn into a really manipulative and abusive organization that ended up becoming the Big House family. Her vulnerability really, really shines through as she recounts how her deep desire for just connection and spirituality, how it led her to essentially surrender control over her life and her finances. It. It really speaks to this innate human desire to belong. And it really gently, but also powerfully highlights how you can be pulled into a cult pretty easily and really how hard it can be to leave after those abusive relationships. Kind of end up controlling your life, your emotions, how you navigate other relationships, and how it really causes you to mistrust kind of everybody else in your life. The turning point for Bethany really was when she became a mother. And she finally gets this really strong determination to escape and realizes how bad it truly is. And she wants to protect her child from the same manipulative grip that she was subject to for years. This book is definitely heartbreaking, but it's also empowering to witness her fight for freedom for both herself and her child. It was ultimately a really profound exploration of identity and faith and healing from religious trauma and abuse. And she really encourages people to face their path and redefine their faith. I don't think that you have to be familiar with One Tree Hill to enjoy this memoir. It really is about her kind of experience with this cult. I think that you'll definitely. Well, I think that you'll maybe appreciate it more if you watch One Tree Hill. I have watched an episode here or there. I'm familiar with the show and the characters, but I never watched it, like, from, you know, pilot to the end. It doesn't play a huge role in the story. We don't even really hear about her experience with One Tree Hill until the latter half of the book. And she really only drops, you know, little tidbits here and there. So, yeah, I would still recommend picking this up, even if you're unfamiliar with her or the show. She narrates the audiobook herself. I listened to this one and she did a phenomenal job. So I doubly recommend this one on audio. And that is Dinner for Vampires by Bethany Joy Lentz.
- [68:40]
A
What an interesting name. An interesting title. Do you figure out why, I mean, the vampires are the cult people or what?
- [68:47]
C
Yeah, she kind of ties it in because. Oh, what did she say? She said it so well in her book, but she basically. Yeah, she. I'm trying to remember how she ties it in. She does tie it in at the end. But basically how, like, she's essentially the meal in this situation. And she kind of, like, talks about how at first she.
- [69:08]
A
I don't know, but she explains it in the book.
- [69:10]
C
She ties it in. She ties it in perfect. And does a really good job. And it ends up making sense toward the end.
- [69:17]
A
I'll take it.
- [69:18]
B
Okay, so my last book I'm gonna give you is sort of in that topic, like, prescriptive nonfiction about what's going on politically. I'm gonna tell you about a book called the Rise of the Latino Far Right and what It Means for. It's by Paola Ramos. This book just came out this year. I read it in September. Sort of like, let me read this. I've always been curious about this thing. Now, of course, after the election returns, it feels even more, like, important. And maybe people should have read it before, but the book gets into sort of how. How it's possible or what's going on in the Latino community that people of that group could be drawn. Swayed towards conservative politics, especially because I think some of the ways that we think about, you know, Latino groups is that they would, you know, be. Have certain politics. And this book digs into and does, like, such great reporting on what's actually going on in the ground. And I think, like, one of the big takeaways from the book that I knew, but I think people don't think about is that this idea of, like, Latino or Hispanic is not the same as what white and black are in America. If you are Latino, you also are Cuban or Puerto Rican or Dominican or Chilean or Argentinian. And all of those places have their own unique histories and relationships, not only to their own culture, but also to race. One of my big takeaways from the book is that, like, a lot of Latino people are white. They are white in the countries from which they came, and they are seen as white. Now. Think of like, a Ted Cruz or, like, Marco Rubio. Those are white men. They are Latino because they have. They are Come from countries that are considered Latin America, but they are white in those countries, and they are white here, even though we loop them in. Right? So, like, just this really basic idea. Also, a lot of Argentinians are white. If you look at the Argentinian national soccer team, there was a lot of talk about that, why they were so white, and that's because they have a whole racial historical thing. So she goes into stuff like that. She talks a lot about religion. She talks a lot about immigration and this relationship to illegal immigration and Legal immigration and sort of coming up the right way. She also talks about this call towards, like, demagogue politicians, which is often prevalent in Latin American countries. You know, during a lot of these times, there is a. There's a relationship to those histories that plays into what's happening in America. And so this book I just found to be super interesting. It is so much more nuanced than what I'm doing right now. As far as, like, my review of the book, I overall liked it. I did it on audio. I think the first half is fantastic. I think the last quarter is fantastic. And I think there's one quarter in the middle where she sort of gets into the weeds of, like, January 6th. That really was not working for me. That being said, I think overall the book is really, really great. It just gets too detailed in a way that feels different from the other parts of the book. But it is worth your time. The audio is great. The author does not read it. I cannot remember who reads it, but she's a very good narrator, and she. She narrated the Christina Rivera Garza book, Liliana's Invincible Summer. So it's the same audiobook narrator as that. Anyways, I recommend it. I think it's really good. I think it's really interesting. And I think for people who are feeling like they want to blame other people for what happened, I think there's so much more nuance to what happened in November and at the election. And this book is a really helpful reminder that the ways that we talk about race and ethnicity in America are so piss poor that the nuance is just totally stripped from it. And this book does a really great job of, like, enhancing the picture and, like, kind of like it's like the wizard of Oz. All of a sudden, it's in color and you're like, right, I know. I. I had been swayed by the media just being like, Latino voters, and it's like, wait a second.
- [72:56]
A
Yeah, what does that mean?
- [72:57]
B
Right? What does that mean? And, like, how can we be lumping someone from Argentina in with somebody from Honduras? Like, what? These are totally different countries with. With totally different geopolitics and relationships to wealth and to power and to racism and all of these things. So it's. It's worth it for sure.
- [73:14]
C
This is definitely a type of book that I would love to read more of. And I think, to a point that you made earlier, I'm probably gonna have to go into it, like, being okay with not knowing this stuff.
- [73:26]
B
Well, what's good about this one is that it's written by a journalist, so it's like reading a newspaper. It's not difficult writing. It's not difficult information. It's very straightforward. It's very easy to read. And it's one of those books just get out of your way. You're smart enough for the book.
- [73:40]
C
No? That's good to know. I'm really glad that you brought this one, and it's definitely one that I am curious about. I think you're right. We kind of contend to have those things that we have very, like, a binary lens on. And it's so important to really unpack the nuances, especially with topics like this. So I'm glad that you brought that one. Thank you.
- [73:59]
A
This has been such a pleasure. Honestly, this is so fun. Unfortunately, I could talk to you. I mean, I could talk to you for the next three hours and feel like it's not enough. So I'm feeling sad that it's coming to an end. We have been together now for nearing an hour and a half. But thank you so much for your. For your time and for coming on Book talk, et cetera. Honestly, I'm feeling very activated in a really good way. I have, like, my little notes. I've started this thing called a commonplace journal where I'm just, like, like, jotting stuff down that, like, gets me excited, but it's not pretty in any way. It's just sort of like Cassie on my baby ripped out some pages, and I'm like, that's good. I'll look back at this in some years. And anyway, all of this to say I was, like, writing things down. I feel very energized. So thank you for just, like, coming and sharing. And you're so, like, you're. Most of this, I feel, correct me if I'm wrong, is off the cuff. Like, this is just in your head. That's incredible. I am so, like, you've been doing.
- [74:49]
C
This for a long time.
- [74:50]
A
I know, right? It's also, though, you should have a podcast.
- [74:53]
B
Does anyone have to talk about books for work? No. Let's do this again. We should make this, like, a nonfiction November thing where I can come in and dump nonfiction on you all. That would be fun.
- [75:03]
C
That sounds like a great idea.
- [75:04]
A
Absolutely. Is there anything you want to plug or leave our listeners with?
- [75:08]
B
Not really. Follow me on social media. Listen to the podcast, please. I do have a gift guide that just went out today, and instead of doing just, like, regular books like normal, I did. I took political issues, 11 of them, and I paired them with organizations to donate to books that are tied to that topic as well as gifts that support that issue. So what a good resource or whatever. So if folks are like feeling like they don't want to buy sweaters or whatever for their uncles who voted for Trump or whatever, you could donate in their name and give them a book and be like, I think you'd really like this. And sneakily, it's like a book about abortion, being like you otherwise Uncle Jim or whatever. But also, maybe Uncle Jim is lovely, you know, maybe he just needs more information. So I don't know. I just felt right this year.
- [75:55]
A
I yeah, we'll definitely check that out and link to all of these things. That's it for today. We thank you for spending a part of your day with us. Links to all the books mentioned can be found in the show Notes. If you enjoyed today's episode, you can help us by following wherever you listen. Follow Tracy's podcast too, the Stacks, and leave us good review reviews. It helps us get our shows out to new listeners and grows our audience. And don't forget, if you'd like access to exclusive bonus content and community, you can join us for $5 a month on patreon.com booktalk Etc.
- [76:24]
C
If you'd like to connect with us, you can email us@booktalk etcmail.com you can also connect with us both at BookTalk Etc. On Instagram and TinaBrec and Hannah at HandpickedBooks and Tracy Hestacks. Talk to you next week. And in the meantime, remember, everything's better with books.