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- [00:00]
Tina
Hi.
- [00:01]
Hannah
Hi.
- [00:02]
Tina
Hi.
- [00:03]
Hannah
Yeah, she's eating the microphone.
- [00:05]
Tina
Say hi. She doesn't perform. She can't. Welcome to Book Talk Etc, a podcast bound to grow your tbr. I'm Tina from TBR Etc.
- [00:25]
Hannah
And I'm Hannah from Hand Picked Books.
- [00:27]
Tina
This is a conversational podcast about books and more from two Midwest mood readers easily distracted by new releases. And today we're talking about secrets, scholars and the dark side of academia.
- [00:39]
Hannah
If you enjoy listening, we'd love for you to follow us on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app. If you have a quick minute, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or sharing us on social media. It truly helps us connect with other book lovers.
- [00:55]
Tina
Hi, Hannah.
- [00:56]
Hannah
Hey, Tina. How are you?
- [00:57]
Tina
I'm good. Boy, oh boy. We've been chatting all morning and yet haven't recorded a minute.
- [01:03]
Hannah
Well, had planning to do and then we had some mic troubles, some technical difficulties.
- [01:10]
Tina
But we're here now, ready to go. I'm excited to talk to you about this topic and I will say I. I struggled with it more than I expected, but I came out on the other side really enjoying it.
- [01:25]
Hannah
Oh, good. Yeah. I know you had mentioned that, that this one ended up being a little tricky for you. It's always interesting how when we do these more like special, like, what's the right word for it?
- [01:38]
Tina
Specific.
- [01:39]
Hannah
Yeah. Do these more specific episodes. How sometimes they really work for us and then sometimes we end up figuring out our challenges or maybe even things that we don't necessarily prefer that we didn't know that we didn't. So it's always kind of a fun experiment.
- [01:54]
Tina
I know. And I went back and forth. At first we're like, dark academia. And then I was like, can we. No, at first it was campus, and then I was like, let's do dark academia. And then I was like, can we switch back to campus? Because I'm bringing one of each today and we're going to talk to you a little bit about what is a campus novel, what is dark academia? Similarities, differences, all of those good things. First though, I will hop into my loving lately and I will say, I don't know if you can like call this a loving lately, but it is something that definitely caught my attention on Netflix and you'll see why I say that in a minute. It is into the Fire, the Lost Daughter. It is a two part documentary about the disappearance of Andrea Bowman in 1989 and her mother's search for her. This is about a woman who learns 36 years after she gave birth to a baby girl and placed her up for adoption that she had disappeared. So Kathy is the biological mom in this. And she gets a message in 2010 from an adoption agency, the one that had her daughter, that she went through. She's thinking, okay, maybe this is my daughter looking for me. You know, she had given her up when she was 16 years old, sort of under pressure from society and her family. But no, the adoption agency was looking for DNA because they found a body and suspected that it was the daughter and she had been missing for 21 years. And so this woman finds that her bio daughter has been missing for two decades and naturally becomes obsessed with trying to figure out what happened to her. She had never stopped thinking about her. And this woman, Kathy, is relentless. She's a dog. I loved her. I love this woman. And she almost, like, looks like an actress. Like just this gritty, sort of like, oh, my God, like, had this unbreakable spirit. And the more you get into it, it's just two parts, so you sort of get that set up in the very beginning and then there's some twists and turns along the way. The more you get into it, by the end, you are just so rooting for Kathy. This is heartbreaking. It is dark content warning for sexual assault and other things. Obviously, it's. It's true crime and it's pretty dark, but also really well done, I thought. Very respectful, very interesting insight into the law enforcement process. And it's just. I think if you like documentaries that sort of have this interesting premise and play from there, you'll like this. I highly recommend it. It was sad, but also something I'm glad that I watched because it's, you know, if you're someone that likes to study humanity or people, it's just there's a lot of fascinating characters to learn from this. So this one was called into the the Lost Daughter and it's a documentary on Netflix.
- [04:40]
Hannah
Yeah. I feel like I've seen either, like, ads for this on YouTube or something like that. I've definitely heard of this story. And it sou. Really interesting. Is it. It's not a docu series. This is a documentary. It's one watch. Or is it multiple episodes?
- [04:56]
Tina
Just two. Two episodes. So sort of. Right.
- [04:59]
Hannah
You could watch it in a documenty series.
- [05:01]
Tina
Yeah, a documentise. Very mini. Just two episodes. But yeah, and it's. It's interesting because it sort of ties into another case that, you know, all makes sense by the end. But does it make you infuriated?
- [05:13]
Hannah
Yeah, for some of the humanity best True crime stories do.
- [05:17]
Tina
Yeah, exactly. So anyway, really recommend that one.
- [05:20]
Hannah
Cool. Well, my loving lately is totally different. That is a new company that I have been getting tea from, tealish, which I love a punny. I love a punny title also. That is actually kind of what drew me to it. I have been on the hunt. Me and my husband have been on the hunt to find a new place to get tea. Because we used to get this certain kind of tea from Sips by, and Sips by is no longer. And we've tried some other places. Like, we really like plum, and we really like some of these other companies that do tea. But we were looking for a very specific kind of tea. The one that we used to get was this almond cookie tea. And it was made from apple, almond, cinnamon, ginger, and beetroot. And beetroot is the specific ingredient that we were looking for because, especially for my daughter, it brews bright pink. When you put the beetroot in it, it doesn't add to the flavor, but it brews bright pink. Really. The flavor comes from the apple, the almond, the cinnamon. It's a very. Especially if you put honey in it. It's sweet. It's perfect for fall. It almost kind of has, you know, that apple cinnamon taste. It's a very, very good herbal tea. Anyway, we've been looking for a dupe everywhere. We finally found it from this brand called tealish. Their version is called Toasty Almond. It is so good. It pretty much tastes the same. We like it just as well. And we had been on the hunt for a while, so we were so happy to finally find this. It's also priced really well, so for 50 grams, which makes 20 to 25 cups, it's only about $15, so. So not a bad price. We have tried some of their other teas and really liked them. They also make these, like, powder packets for iced tea that you can mix. I really have enjoyed the matcha lemonade and the fruit punch with those. So they just have some fun options. We're excited to try more teas from this brand, but so far the toasty almond is our favorite. I'm so glad we found it. And that is Tealish.
- [07:36]
Tina
I love this recommendation. I love almond. There's an almond wine I really enjoy from a local. Well, it's called Cooper's Hawk. It's not that, like, niche, but they have an almond sparkling wine. That's my favorite. My mouth was, like, watering listening to describe the flavors of that tea. So I'm like, I want to get.
- [07:53]
Hannah
Six year Old approved.
- [07:54]
Tina
Six year old approved. And that was my follow up question. Does she drink tea?
- [07:58]
Hannah
Oh, yeah, she'll drink the entire cup. No, we sweeten it with honey. I mean, we sweeten ours with honey too.
- [08:04]
Tina
Yeah. No, that's adorable, though. I just see. I picture now for some reason, I'm picturing a tiny teacup. She's just like, sipping casually in the corner, listening to her audiobook.
- [08:13]
Hannah
Oh, yeah, she's posh. Very posh.
- [08:15]
Tina
Very posh.
- [08:16]
Hannah
She makes us put it in this glass chalice. We have these. They're actually technically like wine glasses or almost like parfait cups that have, like the little stem and then like the little cup and she has us put them in that and she calls it her tea chalice.
- [08:31]
Tina
God, I love her.
- [08:32]
Hannah
I know.
- [08:33]
Tina
We got to meet over the weekend. Our children met each other, which was so fun. We ran up to the apple orchard, and it was, you know, not too far from where we are, and the kids were playing together in the apple orchard, which was absolutely darling. So now when you tell me these stories, I'm like picturing, oh, yeah.
- [08:50]
Hannah
So this last weekend, Tina texts me and she's like, hey, so we're basically, like, coming to. We're basically coming to you. Like, we'll be in the area. We're gonna go apple picking. You know, no pressure. If you're not available, it's okay, but we're gonna be there in like an hour and 40 minutes. And I was like, hell, yeah. Like, I will meet you there. And Dustin was joking. He was like, well, you two are just a match made in heaven, because you're just down to do anything. And, yeah, you know, she's just spontaneously planning stuff, so.
- [09:24]
Tina
Absolutely. I don't think I recognize, like, this is literally like your sort of hometown recommendation, because we were just talking Michigan in general. Like, do you have any recommendations? I was like, oh, my God, we loved it. That was absolutely spot on. So a really good weekend for the podcast overall, despite losing an organ. You know, who would have thought, you.
- [09:44]
Hannah
Know, it was a busy weekend for you.
- [09:45]
Tina
It really was.
- [09:47]
Hannah
Road trip.
- [09:48]
Tina
Yes. All right. So we were talking about, you know, I had my gallbladder out, and with that came a lot of pain. I did not do a ton of reading, so I'm feeling a little bit behind. But the one book that definitely kept my attention when I was in the Worst of the Pain is Colored Television by Danzy Senna. And this is my latest read. This book is a dark comedy about second acts, creative appropriation, and the Racial identity, industrial complex. It's about Jane. Jane is a very complex character, in my opinion. Jane is a writer, and she teaches at a university. So going along with our theme today, this is not one of my academia books, but she is teaching at a university, but she's on sabbatical, and she's planning to use this sabbatical to finish her latest novel. She's been working on it for 10 years. This is her magnum opus. She's tired of seeing it, but needed to take this year off to finally finish it. Her husband is a painter, and the two of them live in la, but sort of make friends with rich people, and basically, for the last year, have been living in their friend's luxurious home in the hills above Los Angeles. And she's like, this is perfect. My friend's away. I'm gonna use his house and his writing retreat and really hammer this thing out. But of course, it wouldn't be a novel if that's how it went. Things don't work out quite as she had hoped. So she's desperately searching for a plan B and makes some very interesting choices, but lands herself an interview in Hollywood. And she meets with this young producer to create, quote, diverse content for a streaming network. And he's so excited. This man is very charismatic, and he's like, yes, I wanted to work with a real writer. She massages her history a little bit to, you know, kind of get this meeting. But they do have a really good vision. The ask, basically of her is to help him create the greatest biracial comedy to ever hit the small screen. And things are going pretty well until they go terribly wrong throughout this book, Jane. It's one of those books you kind of read with your hands over your eyes a little bit because you're like, jane, what are you up to? What are you doing? You can't do that, Jane. But at the same time, you're, like, rooting for her, even though she's making questionable decisions. She's really interesting, I guess. The author provides really interesting commentary on motherhood, on working in Hollywood, getting adaptations, and fun fact. The author is actually married to Percival Everett, who's also an author who's had his books adapted. And so it's just sort of this meta, I guess, in my head anyway, it's like, oh, you know, some of this is life imitating art or art imitating life. I love the writing. Very, very poignant. Some of it was tough for me to read, frankly, as a white mother to biracial children. I'm like, oh, Gosh. Because she's talking a lot about the biracial experience and how people perceive them and just thoughts that she has about everything. But I liked it. It was sharp. It's very, very sharp commentary. She also talks a lot about money and the haves and the haves nots and a little bit about how being biracial makes it hard to fit in with any one group. Jane is pretty acerbic and some of her jokes didn't land quite where I think they could have. And I was like, oh, I don't know that we're. I don't know that you should say that, but it is very. She felt like a real character. Overall, I highly recommend this. I really enjoyed reading it. It's not terribly long. I think it's Something around maybe 250 pages, I think, if you like the idea. If you like books with authors, absolutely. This is a great one to add to the canon. It's a woman who's coming to find herself and sort of accepting her role in the world, but also still fighting against it. I thought it was really good. I have a lot to say about it and I feel like it's one of those that's almost hard to discuss unless you are discussing it with people who have read it. Because then you guys can be like, can you believe this and that and the other thing. So if you've read it and want to chat, feel free to hit me up. This book is Colored Television by Danzi Senna.
- [13:47]
Hannah
Yeah, it's always funny when you finish those books where you're like, how am I going to talk about this with people who haven't read it? I think we've all read a book like that where it's like, oh, I wish I could talk to someone who has read this so that we could talk about these things that happened. My mom has been so excited to hear you talk about this book. She's always like, has. Has Tina read it yet? When is she going to talk about it?
- [14:11]
Tina
So let mom know it's coming next week. And actually, yes, your mom truly was like, you had mentioned the last time we met up that your mom was like, I want Tina to read this. And I see why she had said that. So this one's for you, mom.
- [14:22]
Hannah
Perfect. Awesome. Well, my latest read is one that I had heard a couple of booktubers talk about that I watch Kayla from Books and Lala most recently. I heard talk about this one and I was really intrigued. It's the Blue Book of Nebo by Manon Stefan Roz this is a translated book from the Welsh. It is little. It's a. It's a novella. It's a post apocalyptic novella and it tells a story of Rowena and her son Dylan, who are survivors of this nuclear disaster in rural Wales. We follow them as they are driven into isolation and they are forced to live off the land. The relationship really evolves as they adapt to their new reality. This book is told through entries in a shared notebook and they reflect on their past lives and the collapse of society, revealing hidden secrets throughout their telling of what is going on. For such a small book, this one really beautifully explores the resilience of the human spirit, the bond between a mother and her son, as well as the creation of a new history in a post apocalyptic world. I thought that this was really unique. Like I said, it's pretty short and although it's literary, it's also really fast paced and keeps you turning the pages quickly, which I feel is not always typical in a literary post apocalyptic novel. I also don't know if you would consider this an epistolary novel. I mean technically, by the way, it's written to the reader but in a journal format. So kind of letter kind of journal, you know. But these two characters are like writing a story and you're reading that and they're telling the reader about how they're navigating this new world and it was just a really engaging format. I love books that play with narrative style like this and I thought that it was a really compelling part of the story. I will say this is an indie published book. I believe when it came to the us it's translated and some things were definitely lost in translation here. There were quite a few typos, some paragraph formatting issues, and even a line that wasn't translated where it should have been. I wanted to point that out because although I did really enjoy this story and I I loved it, that was hard for me as a reader to look past. I don't know if I'm going to let it impact my rating, but there's a big part of me that just can't stand inaccuracies like that. So it just bugged me. It was hard for me to look past, but maybe it's different on audio. I couldn't find this easily on audio with the apps that I use. I do think that Libro FM has it, but I didn't want to spend a credit so I ended up reading this one just with my eyes. Overall, I really liked it a lot. I found the storytelling to be really creative and the characters well developed and endearing and frustrating. But those formatting and grammar issues threw me for a loop. I do recommend this one. Maybe try the audio if the narrator is decent. And that is the Blue Book of Nebo by Manon Stefan. Russ.
- [17:40]
Tina
Hey. Fair enough. I hear what you're saying. It's like you want to be able to overlook those things, but at the same time, it's, you know, it's tough. This is not an arc. Right. You have the finished book of this, so it's kind of like, hello, why am I able to catch this? And how did this get missed?
- [17:55]
Hannah
Yeah, exactly.
- [17:56]
Tina
But to your point, post apocalyptic and sort of good pacing can sometimes be hard to find because sometimes post apocalyptic are a little bit insular, a little bit slower, melancholic. And it sounds like this had a pretty good pace.
- [18:11]
Hannah
Yeah, it did. And I was also surprised. I mean, it's definitely character driven, but I was surprised by some of the things that ended up happening plot wise, especially toward the end. And I thought that that was another creative aspect to the story. So, yeah, overall, I definitely think this one is a win and worth trying, especially if you're looking for more, like, under the radar books or, you know, hidden gems, so to speak.
- [18:33]
Tina
Perfect. Yeah. Books in translation. I don't know if I've ever. I may have read a book translated from Welsh, but I'm not sure. Yeah, I don't know if I had either that language. I've been to Wales for like a day. We had a study abroad in England a long, long time ago. And I remember getting to Wales and I'm like, oh. Cause sometimes you can, like, suss out what this says. But their language. I was like, oh, this is very different.
- [18:53]
Hannah
Oh, yeah, it is very different. The line that I mentioned, that wasn't translated. I was like, well, that is definitely not English.
- [19:02]
Tina
You're like, I'm unclear what I'm supposed to get from that. Yeah.
- [19:05]
Hannah
But I looked it up.
- [19:07]
Tina
I was wondering. Yeah, yeah.
- [19:08]
Hannah
I had Google Translate detect the language and sure enough, it was like, oh, this is Welsh, and it means this, and it fit in context with the paragraph. So I was like, oh, they must have just missed that translation.
- [19:18]
Tina
Well, that's kind of fun.
- [19:20]
Hannah
More. I learned a little something new.
- [19:22]
Tina
Yeah, right. Well, let's talk about our topic today. This is one that we had on our long list. I think for a while it was sort of, I think, not one that we really had to talk the other into. And we're talking about dark academia slash campus novels. And when we initially talked about this, it was going to be campus. Then I asked for dark academia and then I pulled back and said, let's do campus. Make it a little bit more broad. But it's going to be fun to talk a bit about the difference because all dark academia books are campus novels, but not all campus novels are dark academia, which is an important distinction.
- [19:59]
Hannah
It is for sure. Yeah. I was really excited to talk about this too. And you know, in swapping back and forth, we ended up landing on, well, let's just do both and talk about kind of the differences of each. So really, to start, how would you define dark academia and how does that differ from just a general campus novel?
- [20:22]
Tina
Yeah, for sure. For me, when I'm thinking about dark academia, I picture it, it's like very visual. I'm picturing dark classrooms, sort of that I. I'm not an architecture person, but sort of that, like, I don't know, gargoyles, you know, you got stones, you got big, big auditoriums, you got these, a lot of wood. I like see it visually. I see S.K. you know, I see ravens. For some reason, I like how you're.
- [20:49]
Hannah
Really setting the scene for us.
- [20:50]
Tina
I'm really setting the scene because when I hear dark academia, that's literally what I picture. I know dark can mean actually dark. Right. But can also mean thematically or even sort of the plot wise you get into some darker categories. Whereas campus novels is just general campus novel, takes place at a university. And I think that could be from the perspective of students from staff, from whoever, from professors.
- [21:15]
Hannah
Yeah, I mean, you could argue that even like the Love Hypothesis by Ali Hazelwood is a campus novel because even though, you know, it is what it is, it takes place on campus. So it might not be what you typically associate with a campus novel, but it is one. I think with dark academia, to your point, you know, you were like, it could be dark because of setting, it could be dark because of themes. I think that you can expand on that a little with, you know, it could be a thriller that has like a murder aspect or it could be, you know, that there's like a secret society happening that's a little bit darker and that's what's going on. It could be a fantasy book that takes place at a magical school and there's some nefarious things happening on that campus. So I do think that although dark academia is a little bit more narrow, it does still offer some variety. One of the books that I'm bringing Later is actually true crime. That was a crime that happened on a campus in Harvard. So I think that there is still some variety that you can bring with dark academia.
- [22:28]
Tina
For sure. I think for me, when I think about dark academia immediately, I'm also conflating it with gothic because I think the two do go hand in hand. I don't think in every case they're one and the same. Gothic. I'm seeing, you know, more haunted houses, sort of curses, madness, gargoyles. Gargoyles. That's where my gargoyles come in. Where you can have that in dark academia. But there's also a lot of like coming of age themes in there. Sometimes there's like passion maybe, maybe a death or two, which you can get in Gothic, it's just, I think a little bit different. Gothic, I think, has sort of that also castles, towers, like that. I'm picturing like a bigger magical castle. So for me, I think when I think dark academia, I do conflate it a bit with gothic, but the two are a little bit different.
- [23:12]
Hannah
Yeah, for sure. Because I think that you can have a gothic novel that like takes place to your point, like in a mansion. Like Rebecca by Daphne d'amore.
- [23:20]
Tina
Exactly.
- [23:21]
Hannah
Yeah. But I do see where you made that connection because immediately when you started kind of setting that scene, I was thinking of Babel by RF Kuang, which I have complicated feelings about. I know it was like really popular a couple of years ago. I read it, I liked it. But that one I would definitely put in the dark academia category and definitely fits that atmosphere that you were kind of setting up with the, you know, the castles and the big university and kind of the more magical setting, et cetera.
- [23:52]
Tina
Whereas campus novels, right, they are, I think, less dark, not with theme, but like it's. It's. For me, I picture it for some reason, Gothic. It's like not necessarily set in the past, but it has some of those older elements. Whereas campus novels could be any university setting today. For some reason too, I see. I think here's why I just define them so distinctly. I work at a university and so it's very. Reading campus novels in my head I was thinking this is going to be perfect because I serve on faculty and I have an office at a university. And then I was like, is this a little too close to home? Like, is this the escapism, fiction, enjoyment that I'm getting? And I ultimately landed there. But I will say with both of the books and bringing today, I sort of see the, I don't know, wizard behind the curtain, if you will, with within the university setting. And it really worked for one. But that means because of my experience, I'm like, I don't know if this book that I enjoyed a decent amount is going to have as much of a wide appeal because it's pretty insular to working at a university setting.
- [24:52]
Hannah
It is interesting that you're bringing kind of that personal connection to these books. I hadn't thought about that, but I'm excited to hear you talk about your books even more now.
- [25:02]
Tina
Yeah. And so do you tend to enjoy dark academia?
- [25:06]
Hannah
I would say yes. I mean, it's not a genre where I've been like, oh, I love dark academia. I definitely want to make sure that I pick up a bunch of these in the fall or whatever. But now that I'm thinking about it, I mean, pretty much all of the dark academia books that I personally have read have landed at least at like a, you know, 3.54 star rating. And so I do think that it is a genre that could end up being one that I kind of add to my buzzword.
- [25:37]
Tina
Yeah.
- [25:38]
Hannah
Sub genre, you know?
- [25:40]
Tina
Yeah. And I, I thought it was in my buzzword sub genre. I thought, I'm like, this is going to be easy. What a layup. And then I have never picked up or sampled more books in my life than I have for this episode.
- [25:52]
Hannah
So interesting.
- [25:53]
Tina
I had a huge stack physically and, you know, electronically. I sampled a bunch and I was like, oh my God, do I not like dark academia? Do I not like books set at universities? Is it too close to home? It just took me finding the very specific, correct one for it to really sink in and work for me. I do love that college age, you know, I love my books with college aged protagonists. And so I think once I got a group that I vibed with and I sort of enjoyed their setting and where they were at. They all, all these books too, in my brain are in New England or in Europe. That's not true. But, like, that's where they are in my head, which is very apt for this time of year. But I do enjoy those. I also really like campus or dark academia that talks about social issues that young people face, that sort of marginalized people face, or just in general. Any social issues I like. I thought I liked a Secret society, but I'm not sure because I'm like, I feel like I've seen it done many times and I. If it's fresh, I'll go with it, but if it feels well used, then I might say, oh, I think I've read this before.
- [26:59]
Hannah
Yeah, that makes sense. I know this happened to me with our. Our cli Fi episode where it was something where I was like, oh, this is going to be great. I'm going to find so many books. And I ended up sampling and putting down so many. And I think to your point, I had to find out kind of the types of books within that sub genre that I was really drawn to. And I learned a lot about myself, you know, in what I did and didn't like. So hopefully you learned something about your reading life, too, with this one.
- [27:28]
Tina
Yeah, I think I did. And I'll share a stack of the ones that didn't quite make the cut. Not bad books, but sort of especially for me with this. It was a mood thing. I was also getting into surgery and out of. And so, you know, it took me finding the correct one. And once I did, I was like, great, we're here. I love it. But I will jump in and share my first one if that works for you.
- [27:48]
Hannah
Let's do it.
- [27:49]
Tina
My first one is a campus novel, and this was the one that I was referencing where I'm like, is this too close to home? Well, not. Let me tell you the book, and then I'll say why I think it might be Close to home. It's Vladimir by Julia Mae Jonas. I say Close to Home, not because I'm having a relationship with a fellow faculty member, but Close to Home because it's about professors and the actions of their students very heavily influenced their lives. This was a debut, which, looking at that, I'm like, okay, I didn't necessarily think about it as being a debut, but it's about a woman who has a beloved English professor who is facing a slew of accusations against her professor husband by former students. So students are accusing her husband of power misuse and being in relationships. And the situation becomes all the more complicated when she develops an obsession of her own. In this, a woman is an unnamed narrator. When I was, you know, sort of prepping for this episode, I didn't realize that, but it makes perfect sense. It sort of lends itself. Not having her name lends itself to some of the universality of the themes. But also, I was trying to decide as I'm reading this, I'm like, is she insane? Is she. Is she truly, like, literally, like, what's. What's going on? Because. And as you read on your. You yourself will be battling with that question. She is a popular English professor and has students that are sort of her pets. And she talks about that relationship. And she has a really interesting relationship with her husband. They have had a long understanding when it comes to their extramarital pursuits. So they sort of don't have an open marriage, but like, you know, sort of don't ask, don't tell type thing. And then when the former students sort of accuse him of being in relationships with them, even though at the time she's quick to point out it wasn't illegal, she's now feeling like, oh, now I have to face the weight of their judgment of our open relationship. And she's feeling like they're accusing her of being complicit. Then you've got Vladimir, the titular Vladimir, and he is a new faculty member. I was expecting when I read this that it would be all about Vladimir. He is peripheral, which I liked. I'm glad that he was. He's also an adult. I thought I had initially written this book off because I thought he was a student. I was like, I don't know if I want to read that. No, Vladimir is a full grown up. He's also a. Not a tenured professor, but he's a professor as well. He's married to another woman that works at the university. A lot of university marriages here.
- [30:19]
Hannah
So much drama.
- [30:20]
Tina
So much drama. But this book, what it does well, it really sort of stretches the boundaries of morality because sure, technically, when this man was in the relationship, and I say relationship loosely, right? With the students, some of them were current students, some of them were former students, and it was all consensual. But. But she is very clear on stating her case and stating her opinion about it. And it made me uncomfy. She's like, well, technically it wasn't against the rules at the time. And I'm like, but there's the power abuse. But that's sort of the tension and the reasons why you are questioning this narrator. Cause you're like, wait, are you, are you saying what's going on here? I sort of accepted, like, okay, we're supposed to hate her, right? Like, we don't like her, like, what's going on? And I found against myself, I was like, wait, I kind of like her because she had a lot of interesting things to say. I appreciated what she had to say about an open relationship and sort of this, this non traditional marriage that she had with her husband. She described working with undergrads. Exactly. I teach freshmen. I really, really felt a lot of what she was talking about in terms of that relationship you have with your students. But also that sort of gosh, tightrope. You're walking when you're like, God, did I say that in the right way? I hope that's not taken out of context because, you know, you're dealing with a lot of personalities. This book, where I think it will lose some people, it's very descriptive. It's also very insular. Your enjoyment of this is going to depend on how much you like stories that are quieter and very New England and very insular. It's about longtime marriage. I enjoyed that. But I will say she talks a lot about her body and its aging process. And it bugged me. It rubbed me the wrong way. I think the author is in her 30s, maybe. So I'm like, she's making. The woman is, I think, 50. We'll say 57 or something. And my God, you would think she's got one foot in the grave with, like, some of the body descriptions. So that was bugging me. The last quarter was a ride. I enjoyed where it went. Cause I'm like, huh, Pardon me. I don't know that she necessarily stuck the landing, but it does pose a lot of interesting questions, including questions about cancel culture, personal responsibility, and culpability. I am still very much processing my thoughts about this one. Overall, I'm glad I read it. I don't know if it's for everyone, but I landed, we'll say about three and a half stars, edging toward four. I didn't mind it. I kind of had fun with it. Okay, that's all this book is. Vladimir by Julia Mae Jonas.
- [32:59]
Hannah
I feel like talking about books like this, where you liked a lot about it and didn't like a lot about it. I feel it can be hard. And you did it so well. I feel like you just set that book up so well.
- [33:11]
Tina
Really? Okay, good. Because I felt rambly. But also I like when I get in that mode. I'm like, I have a lot to say. Da, da, da, da, da. Books where you're like, yeah, it was a book. You know, there was characters. They did stuff like this one really activated me. I could see this being great for book club, especially with women, or just sort of women that are mothers and maybe approaching middle age. And it'll incense a lot of people, I think, but sometimes that's fun. I don't know.
- [33:35]
Hannah
Yeah, you've definitely got me intrigued. I mean, I've heard a lot of people talk about this book, but you had me activated, too. I was talking to you.
- [33:42]
Tina
I was activated. It also was not very sexy. I was thinking it was Going to be much. Especially with the COVID Because if you've not seen the COVID it's a shirtless man. I thought it was gonna be very spicy. Zero chili peppers, maybe a half a one.
- [33:54]
Hannah
Wow. I didn't know that.
- [33:55]
Tina
Is that a spoiler? Nah.
- [33:57]
Hannah
No, it's not a spoiler. I feel like a lot of people, especially with books like this, I could be better even when I talk about my romance books, whether it's like open door or closed door or how spicy it is, you know, there's a few.
- [34:08]
Tina
Open scenes, but nothing crazy.
- [34:10]
Hannah
Okay. Yeah, no, that's good to know. I feel like with a book like this, you're kind of anticipating that definitely being a part of the plot, so.
- [34:17]
Tina
Yes, exactly. It was much more subdued than I was anticipating.
- [34:20]
Hannah
That is definitely good to know, and I'm sure information that a lot of our listeners will appreciate as well. Okay, so my next one falls into. I mean, yes, a campus novel, but definitely in the Dark Academia space. And that is Ace of Spades by Farida Abike. And this is a young adult dark academia novel. I don't read a ton of young adults anymore, but I've heard really good things about this one, and I thought that it would work for me, so I. I went ahead and picked it up. This is YA Dark Academia. It's described as a blend of Gossip Girl and Get out. I totally feel the Gossip Girl stuff. I do think that people like to compare books like this to get out. I think personally that Jordan Peele is a lot more subtle in his approach to topics like this being this, that this is young adult. It makes sense that some of the themes were a little more on the nose, but I. I wanted to point that out because I feel like that comparison gets thrown out a lot. The story centers on Devon Richards and Chiamaka, who are two black students in a predominantly white high school whose lives unravel when the mysterious aces starts exposing their deepest secrets. So here's where you get kind of the Gossip Girl element. This book really keeps you on the edge of your seat with its unexpected twists that are both intriguing and deeply engaging. There were definitely some twists that happened that I was not expecting, which I really appreciated about this book specifically. But that's really all I want to say about, like, in terms of the synopsis, I feel like this is definitely one of those ones where that's all you need to know. The book really propels you along. The character development in particular, I feel like, was really good for these being young adult high school students. I felt like each character was really richly layered and complex, added a lot of depth to the narrative. Although, I mean, they're teenagers, so their teenage antics can definitely be a little bit over the top at times. But I thought that that itself added a little bit of silliness that felt authentic to the high school experience. I thought that this one offered definitely some relevant commentary on class and what it costs to ascend in a white capitalist society, especially if you are black and. Especially if you are black and quite queer. My only critique is that the final twist felt a little bit hurried and left me wanting a little bit more. I don't want to expand on that, obviously, because of spoilers, but it left me thinking, like, wow, okay, that was a little bit rushed for all of that buildup because there was so much buildup throughout the rest of the novel and there were so many little reveals here and there that once it got to the end, it just felt a little bit fast. But despite this, I do think that this was a well written, compelling debut that tackles issues on race and identity with nuance and sensitivity. And additionally, the representation of identities, I thought was handled with care. Considering kind of the darker topics that are tackled in this one. I thought that it was all around a really good quality young adult mystery with some depth and darkness. And that is Ace of Spades by Farida Abike Mide.
- [37:40]
Tina
Perfect. I read this as well a while ago, I think closer to when it came out, and I had a lot of those same feelings. Great vibes, great characters, a lot of awesome sort of social commentary, which I like in all of. Generally all of my fiction. So, yeah, I think she nailed it with a lot of it, and I think I would love to try her. She had a new book come out this year, I think, called Where Sleeping Girls Lie, and it's certainly on my radar.
- [38:05]
Hannah
I have that one and I'm excited to read it. I definitely think with this one, like, while I was reading it, I was like, oh, I really hope that the author doesn't take it in this direction because that would be so predictable. And she didn't.
- [38:17]
Tina
She surprised you?
- [38:18]
Hannah
Yeah, she surprised me. I do think that some of the things that happened were definitely like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. But at least I felt like there were at least a couple of things that were like, oh, okay, I see what you did there. That was. That was cool. That was so.
- [38:31]
Tina
Yeah. The next book I'm going to bring got me firmly out of any reading slump I might have had coming on because I absolutely flipping Loved this book and so did a lot of people. It's if We Were Villains by ML Rio. Have you read it?
- [38:48]
Hannah
No, I haven't really.
- [38:49]
Tina
Okay.
- [38:50]
Hannah
It's actually a past DNF for me, but I'm not committed to that. I'm excited to hear you talk about it. Cause you might talk me back into it. Let's hear about it.
- [38:58]
Tina
I loved it.
- [39:00]
Hannah
So.
- [39:00]
Tina
So many people. Book, right? It's the book. It's got a skull on the COVID Very dramatic script. And it's about a group of seven friends who are actors in a Shakespearean college. They all. They do all day, in and out, is think about Shakespeare, talk about Shakespeare, and act in plays. And it opens. What got me is the opening. Because I knew it was about these Shakespeare actors, right? These college kids that are obsessed with Shakespeare. What I did not know, because I had never read the synopsis, was that it opens with Oliver talking to a cop. And he's finally, finally the cop finally gets him to admit to what actually happened 10 years ago. Because you see, Oliver has been in jail. He had just served 10 years for a murder he may or may not have committed. And on the day he's released, he's greeted by the detective that put him in prison. And he's the one. He's retiring. He's going into a new job. And he's like, please just tell me what happened a decade ago, because I don't believe you. So throughout the story, you've got these acts, which I think was really well done. It's kind of a nod to the play. And in between each act, there is a scene with the detective. And you sort of have Oliver walking him through what happened the night of. So the whole time, you know, something bad has happened. It's sort of building. Got the sense of dread. Cause you're like, something is bad has gone down. Someone paid the price. But what was it? Did he actually do it? All of those good things. What I think the author did so well with this is that the characters felt very distinct for me. There were seven of them of the main friends. And they all played this archetype like you might have in theater. You had the hero, villain, tyrant, temptress, ingenue and extra, sort of the overlooked one. But as you're reading on, they're seniors. And as you read on, you can see that their quirks and their personality traits are starting to wear on one another. And throughout the story, it basically builds to what happened. And how did they get out of it? Did they get out of it. This book was perfect for me. It so accurately captured that feeling of being in college where your friends are your entire life. You're in this bubble. You're talking in Shakespeare. Especially if you went to a small liberal arts college and lived there like I did. It very much gave me, oh, yeah, this feels familiar. Even though I didn't study theater, it just made sense. I had a lot of theories, and I won't tell you if I was right or not. But it was fun to sort of unpack the mystery once the big Bad happened and sort of see the fallout from that. What else is going to happen? How did these people fare later on? I think the author used those flashbacks really nicely because you're sort of getting his final confession as you're. And it aligns well with what's going on in the plot in the past, if you will, in the acts. I think where this book might lose some people is the Shakespeare. They talk a lot in Shakespeare's prose. I didn't care. My eyes just went, okay, cool. Old language, old language, old language. Get to the plot. Because, like, I. But I am absolutely convinced if you know Shakespeare, if you studied Shakespeare, you would definitely get some of the subtleties that I just went over my head. But I did not care. It added to the atmosphere for me. This had such good vibes. I can absolutely see why it's so popular. I can see why it has such a high rating. It's got a 4.14 on Goodreads with 313,000 ratings. I loved it. I sort of loved and hated all of the characters as they loved and hated themselves. I found this very easy to follow, even though it sounds like there could be a lot going on. And I absolutely loved watching this unfold. It was perfection. It's definitely an October book. It's haunting, it's atmospheric, it was thrilling, it was immersive. I highly, highly recommend it. And I'm sad it's over. It's. If We Were Villains by ML Rio.
- [42:56]
Hannah
Did this one give you a book hangover?
- [42:58]
Tina
Maybe. Because I finished this. Yeah. Well, I was thinking. Because the way that I.
- [43:03]
Hannah
Because now you're slumping.
- [43:04]
Tina
Well, no. You know that I'm always in a book. I'm always in a book. Right. I'm never not in a book. And so I had to think. I'm like, what did I read after that? And were they sort of bummers? I think you're actually right. That one was five stars. The two after that are three and a half.
- [43:17]
Hannah
So, yeah. You know, we love the books like that, but sometimes they can create such high expectations for what we read.
- [43:24]
Tina
I know. And now I missed.
- [43:25]
Hannah
I'm so glad you loved it.
- [43:26]
Tina
I missed it. I bought a copy. Obviously it's on its way to my house and I'm happy to. I'm going to go back through and hold it a little bit, annotate, do the things. Hannah, I think I would love this. Do you remember why you DNF'd?
- [43:37]
Hannah
No. And it's been a long time. I think that in hearing you talk about it, it really does sound like something up my alley. I mean, theater, campus novels, dark academia, friendship groups, people you love to hate. I think that that's all of that. Yeah. Right up my alley. So thank you for putting it back on my radar. Maybe I'll bring it next fall. Who knows?
- [43:57]
Tina
Sounds good. All right, well, bye. And I'm sad. It's.
- [44:01]
Hannah
I'm sad I shared it.
- [44:03]
Tina
I said bye to the book. Yes.
- [44:04]
Hannah
Bye. Bye.
- [44:06]
Tina
Bye. Oh, I had good times. I guess I could see myself even rereading this. I see this compared a lot to the Secret History. Yes, I see the comparisons. Absolutely. For me, I like this one even more than Secret History.
- [44:17]
Hannah
Nice. I haven't read either. I've got to get on that.
- [44:20]
Tina
Oh, girl.
- [44:21]
Hannah
I know. I almost read the Secret History for this episode, but it's long and I really wanted to spend my time with it.
- [44:26]
Tina
And that one. Yeah, you have to sort of. That one's more literary. For me, this one was less so. I didn't find this ya, but I did find it to be more accessible and more of a page turner than for me the Secret History was.
- [44:38]
Hannah
Yeah, that. That makes complete sense. Okay. So I ended up going true crime with my next read. I would still definitely put this under Dark Academia. It's just not fiction, obviously, but that is. We keep the dead close by. Becky Cooper. This is a debut piece of investigative journalism. It's an exploration into this case of Jane Britton, who was murdered on Harvard's campus in the late 60s. I want to say this really transcends the typical boundaries of true crime storytelling. In my opinion, its writing style wields both like elegance but also incisiveness. She delivers a narrative that is both really self reflective, but also investigative. She makes some, I don't want to say mistakes, but like some guesses along her journey that end up kind of pointing out some, maybe even like personal work that she needs to do. And she tackles that alongside her continuing to investigate this case and she has this relentless pursuit of truth that not only dissects this decades old murder, but also, like I mentioned, examines her own motivations and the broader societal implications, making this book even more intellectually engaging and suspenseful. So this narrative's strength lies in Cooper's really meticulous attention to detail and her refusal to settle for easy answers. The minute you kind of think like, oh, we're getting somewhere with the case, you're like, oh, I have 300 pages left of this book. So we're not getting, we're not getting closer. But it's still. And I don't say that to think that I was like counting, you know, the pages. I didn't want this book to be over, but it just makes you realize how complicated these things are. She presents a really richly textured portrait of Jane Britton, who was the victim. I really like it when stories do that. And it really intertwined the drama of this, you know, murder mist, this murder case that happened with a really poignant exploration of institutional complexities and academic hierarchies and, yeah, the dark side of academia, her ability to weave also personal anecdotes. She was a Harvard student at one time with historical insights really created this immersive experience into this story. I know I'm continuing to like, just gush about this book, but I just loved it. I thought that another thing that really elevated this book kind of beyond other true crime stories that I have read was her, again, candid reflection on moral dimensions of storytelling. Her writing really invites readers to think about the ethical lines between truth and sensationalism which we so often see in this genre, all while casting a really critical lens on the themes of misogyny and power dynamics, specifically within education and higher education and Ivy League education as well. This was a really thought provoking work that I think will not only appeal to people who like true crime, but also anyone interested in the intricacies of human nature and social justice. I think that, yes, this book is for readers of true crime, but I think that its audience extends far beyond that. I think that this would be a perfect read for people who enjoy an examination of social issues. Like I mentioned, I think this would appeal to historical fiction readers. I think it would appeal to literary readers. I thought it was really well written, very engaging. It's both propulsive but also richly detailed, which is a hard balance to strike. I thought this was really smart and self reflective and I highly recommend it. And that is we keep the dead close by. Becky Cooper.
- [48:39]
Tina
You may have noticed, Hannah, I was Turned backward for the majority of that. Because I know I have a copy of it. I can picture this fine. It's pink, right? Yes, it's like a neon pink or sort of magenta. But yeah, you did a really good job pink and white. You did a good job setting that up. I also think it's very, very difficult for True Crime to do it well and still sort of paint this portrait of the victims and like make sure that they're honoring them well instead of sensationalizing it. I don't read a ton of True Crime. Cause I don't like a lot of it because some of it just feels like it's, oh, okay. This was a cash grab and it wasn't really doing and adding anything. But this one sounds like it had all of the elements that I like in True crime as well.
- [49:20]
Hannah
Yeah. Because it almost wasn't even about solving the case. Right. Like, yes, that was definitely something that needed to happen in order for the book to fulfill its purpose. But really that was almost kind of a. I don't know, I don't want to say like a side component, but like to your point, there was just so much extra and also just exploring, you know, academia and like, I didn't know that Harvard has kind of its own set of law and rule that is hard to get past when it comes to like federal law and legislation. So yeah, it's just really interesting. And so as you can imagine in talking about this, there's a whole lot more left to discuss than just what happened. So. Yeah, really interesting.
- [50:08]
Tina
Oh, wow. All right, good job. I'm so glad we came to some books that we really enjoyed.
- [50:12]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [50:13]
Tina
All right, well, I'm going to tell you about my shelf edition. And this was one where, you know, I'm excited about a book if I. As soon as I get the approval from NetGalley, I'm posting about it in my story because I'm bringing. The Staircase in the woods by Chuck Wendig. This is from Del Rey, comes out on April 29, 2025. I'm so pumped. Okay. It's about five high school friends who are bonded by an oath to protect one another no matter what. Then, on a camping trip in the middle of the forest, they find something extraordinary. A mysterious staircase to nowhere. One friend walks up and never comes back down. And then the staircase friggin disappears. 20 years later, guess what? The staircase is back. Now the group returns to find the lost boy and figure out what lies beyond the staircase in the woods. Excuse me, Hannah, would you go up the staircase. Would you be the first one?
- [51:06]
Hannah
Absolutely not. But this reminds me. This reminds me of Stranger Things in like the first season when Nancy, who is like the, you know, preppy girl or whatever, is the. Yeah, it's the frickin first one to like. She's like, oh, the. The, you know, creatures, the creepy crawly aliens are coming from this hole in a tree. Cool.
- [51:26]
Tina
Let me check it out, see what's good. I love this setup. I love a sparse synopsis that's easy to describe in one or two sentences. I don't need to know much else. You know, Chuck's gonna give us like 550 pages though, in this book. I already know. I can't wait.
- [51:41]
Hannah
Character development.
- [51:42]
Tina
Ooh, ooh, Getting character development. Getting plot. Getting hella weird. I'm ready for it. It's the Staircase in the woods by Chuck Wendig.
- [51:50]
Hannah
I'm really excited for that one too. Okay, so my shelf edition is staying on theme with our dark academia, and that is the Resurrectionist by A. Ray Dunlap. This one comes out on December 24, so we only have a couple months to wait. And this is historical fiction, true crime, and dark academia. And it tells the harrowing tale of murder, greed, and the grisly origins of modern medicine for readers of Lydia Kang ML Rio, who we just mentioned in this episode. Sarah Perry. This is set in Edinburgh, Scotland, in 1828. So I'm already sold. I love books set in Scotland and kind of in this time period. This is about James Willoughby, and he has the sheltered life at Oxford to pursue his lifelong dream of studying surgery in Edinburgh. A medical discovery in the age of New Enlightenment offers everything that James desires, except the chance to work on a human cadaver. And for that, he's going to need to join one of the private schools at a cost that he cannot afford. And so, in desperation, he strikes a deal. I already know this cannot go well. And this person promises to help him gain surgical experience. But it doesn't take long for James to realize that he has made a deal with the devil. And this is described as exquisite and macabre and delightfully entertaining. It combines fact and fiction and a rollicking tale of the risks and rewards of scientific pursuit and the passions of its boldest pioneers. Sounds so good to me. And that is the Resurrectionist by A. Ray Dunlap.
- [53:40]
Tina
That reminds me of the book Anatomy. It's book one. There's a duology and it's got this young female wannabe doctor, basically, and she teams up with somebody that is a body snatcher. Cause that's what they used to do. They used to take bodies from graves for the medical students to study them.
- [53:56]
Hannah
Yes. Which is very sus to say definitely something that happened in the 1800s.
- [54:04]
Tina
That's right. All right, well, that's it for today. We thank you for spending a part of your day with us. Links to all the books mentioned can be found in the show notes. If you enjoyed today's episode, you can help us by following wherever you listen and by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps us get our show up to new listeners and grows our audience. Don't forget, if you would like access to exclusive bonus content and community, you can join us for $5 a month on Patreon.com if you'd like to connect.
- [54:34]
Hannah
With us, you can email us@booktalk etcmail.com you can also connect with us both at booktok Etc on Instagram and tinabrec and hannahandpickedbooks. Talk to you next week. And in the meantime, remember, everything's better with book.
- [54:57]
Tina
I can't really see. I don't want to touch it though. So I'll just enjoy. Just enjoy half of my face.
- [55:07]
Hannah
There you go.