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- [00:00]
Tina
I love.
- [00:01]
Hannah
And you're basically Canadian.
- [00:02]
Tina
I love the Canadians, so I hope I. That's a compliment. I need to just. Okay, done. Stop.
- [00:10]
Hannah
Okay, great. Now we can record.
- [00:12]
Tina
Now we can record.
- [00:12]
Hannah
Because I'm banging.
- [00:24]
Tina
Welcome to Book Talk Etc, a podcast bound to grow your tbr. I'm Tina from TBR Etc.
- [00:30]
Hannah
And I'm Hannah from Hand Picked Book.
- [00:32]
Tina
This is a conversational podcast about books and more from two Midwest Mood readers who are easily distracted by new releases. And today we are talking about historical fiction.
- [00:42]
Hannah
If you enjoyed listening, we'd love for you to follow us on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app. And if you have a quick minute, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or sharing us on social media. It truly helps us connect with other book lovers.
- [00:54]
Tina
Hey everyone. Before we get started, we did want to take the time to invite you to join us on Patreon. Patreon is an online membership platform that gives you a way to financially support our podcast. And for $5 a month you get a lot of bonus content, if I do say so myself. And by becoming a Patreon member, you'll get access to all of our new bonus content as well as our backlist bonus content. And then the most important thing is you get an invite to our Patreon community. So if you've ever wanted your reading to be more of a social experience, this is a great way to find that connection. So for $5 a month, you get access to two bonus episodes in one recorded event and invites to our Book Talk Etc. Discord Server Group. We also host a monthly community read on Discord which is. If you're not familiar with Discord, it's like this text based book club. Well, we use it as a book club that feels like we're having a nice book club chat without the pressure of being on camera. For April, our bonus episodes are a Book Talk After Dark and a niche novels episode. And then our live event will be one of our faves. It is our new reader happy hour when we invite all of our patrons to join us on Zoom and chat about their latest reads. Our community read is say you'll remember me by Abby humor, Dennis. And if this sounds like something you'd be interested in, we would love to have you join us. Head to patreon.com booktalk etc or look for the link in the notes. And thank you so much for your support. We could not do this without you. Hey, Hannah.
- [02:22]
Hannah
Hey, Tina. How are you today?
- [02:24]
Tina
I'm good. How are you doing?
- [02:26]
Hannah
Okay. Our three year old is sick.
- [02:31]
Tina
Come on.
- [02:32]
Hannah
Again?
- [02:32]
Tina
No.
- [02:33]
Hannah
Yeah, he started having a fever last night and so far he's the only one. So my fingers.
- [02:39]
Tina
Oh, my crossed fingers are crossed that it doesn't find the rest of you.
- [02:42]
Hannah
I know.
- [02:43]
Tina
Is it your spring break now or for them?
- [02:46]
Hannah
Yeah, well, it starts tomorrow.
- [02:48]
Tina
Oh, okay. Perfect. Perfect timing.
- [02:51]
Hannah
Starts tomorrow. But. But hey, seven year old, you know, first grader, she's the one that's actually in school and she's not sick yet, so hopefully she can have a nice spring break. We don't have any travel plans.
- [03:03]
Tina
Yeah.
- [03:04]
Hannah
So what are you do have some travel plans coming up?
- [03:07]
Tina
We do. We are. So I'm putting on a good facade right now, but in my head I'm like, oh, I have to do this, this, this, this, this, this, this. Because we're leaving this evening. We are going down to North Carolina actually. Again. This is the second time we're going this year and we are headed there for a football game. Jonathan plays in the first responders league, so it's all police departments across the country that sort of go plays for the cpd. And we're playing the North Carolina. Who knows what their name is. But we are heading down there and we're taking the girls. So we're really milking the lap child thing. This is the last flight that Casio will take before we actually have to pay for her. So I'm excited. It'll be a really good trip. I'm hoping to do one or two little bookstore visits and the weather is supposed to be good, so I am excited. But right now my brain is like, okay, let's record. Enjoy. Be in the moment. And then you could do all of the tasks that are on your list.
- [04:00]
Hannah
It's so hard, literally having to remind yourself to be in the moment.
- [04:04]
Tina
I know.
- [04:04]
Hannah
It's so real.
- [04:05]
Tina
It really is. I don't know. You can tell me. Is this an add thing? It's a mom thing. It's a busy person thing or sort of all of the above. But I'm always like, da, da, da, da, da in my brain thinking about all of the little tasks that I need to do.
- [04:18]
Hannah
Yeah, I think it's probably all of the above.
- [04:20]
Tina
Yeah. A nice combo platter we've got going.
- [04:22]
Hannah
There's combo platter.
- [04:25]
Tina
I am happy, though, that April is here or about to be here, because March is truly the busiest month that I have. Just with a lot of things, specifically my job. And I always forget, I swear to you, every year I'm like, wow. I just Block it out. I think I black out and then the rest of the year sort of falls into place. But I'm like, okay, now we're in April. Hopefully we'll be getting warmer weather in our area.
- [04:45]
Hannah
I know both you and I have always been like, we just gotta make it to April 10th.
- [04:48]
Tina
I know, April 10th, we just have to make it to April 15th for me. And I am just ready. But I will dive into my loving lately. And thank you for helping me with this. As I stated before, I'm like, I am dry. I, I don't. I'm on a no buy or a low buy, so I'm not buying things. And I feel like I have, like, I can't watch TV because I'm busy. But you reminded me that we both love this thing that I'm holding in my hand. It is the Elf Glow Reviver lip oil. And I am obsessed with this. I don't buy any other lip products right now. And this is $9. You can get it at Ulta, you can get it at Amazon, other places, I am sure. But I am absolutely so into this now. I'm holding a color. This one's, it's giving guava. And I have one other color.
- [05:34]
Hannah
Do you that I have too?
- [05:36]
Tina
Yes. I got this one recently because I was at Ulta and I'm on a low buy. But I'm like, you know what? I'm running low on my favorite lip oil. So I allowed myself to buy a dry shampoo in this. And so I picked this color up, but I wanted to get a new color. What I like about it, it's really hydrating and it gives you a little bit of color. If you're looking at our video, I am wearing it now, but I also have lipstick on, but it doesn't give you too much. So I will throw this on even if I am not wearing makeup at all. And it still just kind of gives your lip a little bit of color, gives you a little moisturizing, moisturization, moisture, you know, moisturization, moisturization. And it's not that sticky. I don't, I, I can't deal with super sticky products. I don't mind having something on my lips, but I don't like it when it's ultra sticky. But this is my loving lately, forever and always. I also noticed if you're a person that uses Amazon, subscribe and Save, I have a couple of subscription like things that I get sent every, every whatever other month. You can have this as one of your subscriptions. So like it said like every three months. Most common. And that knocks down even more money. But highly recommend. This, this is the Elf Glow Reviver Lip oil. And this shade is. It's giving guava.
- [06:50]
Hannah
Yeah. Cosign for that one. Absolutely love that product. And I agree that it's not too sticky, but it's also not too, like watery. Yes, that perfect balance. Because just as much as I don't want it to be too sticky, I also don't want it to be too oily and watery.
- [07:06]
Tina
Very much Goldilocks. It has to be just right. And I'm totally with you.
- [07:10]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [07:10]
Tina
It also has this really thick applicator which I love. Like, I love a bigger applicator. I don't like a skinny one.
- [07:17]
Hannah
Yeah, the skinny ones are hard.
- [07:19]
Tina
They're hard. This I bought. We do a Secret Santa for my friend group and I got my best friend and I put one in here and she was like looking at it, like thinking I didn't put this on my list. I'm like, oh, I'm just buying it for everybody because I it so much. She's like, oh, okay. But yeah, highly recommend even if you're not a real makeup person.
- [07:36]
Hannah
Totally agree. Yeah, like you said, you can wear it without makeup. It's great. My Loving Lately is actually a book series for kids. I like to bring these sometimes as Loving Lately because I feel like. Well, I don't feel like my kids right now are kind of in the in between phase. Especially my seven year old. She is definitely kind of in that in between where she's too old for picture books, but not quite there for chapter books. And then my 3 year old, although still does read picture books, he's almost kind of growing out of those as well. And a book series that we've been loving, which is for kids who are ages 5 to 8, are the Kondo and Kazumi chapter book series. This is by David Goodner and Andrea Tsurumi. Why I like these, first of all, I think it's so hard to find those in between chapter books where there are pictures on every single page, like illustrated pictures. I think if you've read like the Mercy Watson books with your kids or the Princess in Black books with your kids. Those are really popular series that I get recommended every time I ask for recommendations for this type of book for this specific age range. Very similar beautiful illustrations on every single page, but not a ton of text, but a little bit more than you would for a picture book. So it's a full story. Each chapter is like Two or three pages, maybe four or five max. And it also is great training for what a chapter book is like our 3 year old is starting to understand. Oh, okay. We'll read two or three chapters tonight and then we'll read more tomorrow. And it's cute to see him kind of start to understand that process because before it was just picture books. We just read one book in one night. He loves these. And what I love about it is I love them too. It's a really cute story. It's about Kondo and Kazumi, which are like these creatures. They're not like an animal you recognize, but they're not humans either. So they're kind of like these creatures who are best friends and they go on adventures together. They set sail in every single book that we have read so far. So they like live on an island and then they sail off to some other adventure like Cheese island or Spaghetti island or something like that. But they always end up getting into something that makes them deal with a conflict in their relationship. It's cute because it's for kids, but also every time we read one we're like, oh, I've dealt with a conflict like this in my friendship before or in my relationships before. So it's enjoyable for both adults and kids. And I feel like, especially if you're reading to your kids every night, which we do, or often some of those books get, you know, repetitive and a little bit tiring. But this is one that we have loved. There are three books in the series so far. I am really hopeful that they come out with more. I don't know if they will because it's been a while since they've come out with the third one. But for now we've just read these three over and over again and we love them. And that's the Kondo and Kazumi book series by David Goodner and Andrea Tsurumi.
- [10:48]
Tina
I always appreciate your children's books recommendations because your kids are a couple. They're like two, like two years older than both of my kids. So it's like an interesting. I'm like, oh, what are they into? So that I could like plan ahead and you know, get some recommendations too. So thank you for bringing those.
- [11:05]
Hannah
Yeah, and I read them to again, my three year old, but then my seven year old, she can read these. So it's kind of like a perfect combo for our specific age gap. And they both really like them a.
- [11:17]
Tina
Lot, so I love it. Well, the time has come and I have been sitting on our latest read for literal Months. I read this back in January because I could not wait because our latest read is our community read, which is Wild Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey. And I am going. We have not yet had our patron chat. That's later tonight as of this recording. And I have not. I'm going to have to restrain myself because you know how people say there are certain books that they just can't take criticism on? That is me with all of her books, frankly. So I know that though, about myself. So I'm going to hope that everyone enjoyed it as much as I have, but definitely am open to, you know, of course, having a good discussion him. But Wild Dark Shore, this is her third novel and Hannah has read it more recently. And I do not know what you think about it, so. Well, I have an idea. Right. But I don't know exactly what you thought about it. It is about a family that is on a remote island. And then this mysterious woman washes up shore. And the family is the Salt family. And he has three children. And they are caretakers. They are caretakers of Shearwater, a tiny island not far from Antarctica. And they're there because they are taking care of this seed bank. And when I saw that when I was learning about this book, I'm like, what is a seed bank? I was ignorant to it. I didn't know what it was. And now that I read this novel, I was like, oh, my gosh, I couldn't care more about these things. Like, they're real anyway. I did a whole deep dive on what it actually is. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, there used to be a lot of people that lived on the island with them, but there's rising sea levels. So this does take place in sort of the near future. And the salts are its final inhabitants. And they are basically packing up all of these seeds because before, you know, to transport them to safer ground. And it's beautiful. There is a lot of wildlife. But it's taken its toll on the family. There are, I think, are they twins? But anyway, there's two older kids and then a younger kid, and it's just the four of them there. You don't know in the beginning of the book where their mom is. And then there's this huge storm. It's the worst storm this place has ever seen in a series of really bad storms. And a woman comes to shore. They have not had anybody new here in forever. She's not supp. Supposed to be there. And they basically nurse her back to health. And the rest of the book follows their relationship in the weeks coming to the final leaving. You know, there's a ship coming to get all of them and it basically follows them into these final weeks as they protect their seeds. And if you think that sounds boring, it could, it could not have been more suspenseful for me, especially towards the end. But I will pause and ask you, Hannah, how did you like this book?
- [13:59]
Hannah
Oh, I loved it. I think this was my favorite community read that we have read so far. And it's Charlotte McConaughey. I'm the same with you. Like, we both, I think for both of us. I can speak for us both. She's just an auto buy auto read author so far. And yeah, I think that she does such a good job with like the trifecta, like character, plot and atmosphere. All three are just 10 out of 10. She does such a good job. And also it's climate fiction, which is, I know, a sweet spot for us both. And her books are like the perfect kind of climate fiction for me. And I think to your point, like, this is just so propulsive. It hooks you from the very beginning until the very end. And she does a good job of plopping, like, I feel like the first third, the second third, and then the final part of the book. These plot moments that make you think, okay, well, I have to keep going. And her pacing with those, I don't want to say plot twists, but just pivotal plot moments.
- [15:07]
Tina
Yes.
- [15:08]
Hannah
Her pacing with that is really, really good and makes for a really propulsive and powerful story.
- [15:15]
Tina
And she's so talented in doing that. And she's like you said, I love how you broke that down. The three, the three, the trifecta, those three main things. Because she really is giving you this propulsive story but also beautiful writing. And I remember when I was a early two bookstagram, I used to say that I didn't care for books with flowery writing or purple prose, as you taught me.
- [15:34]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [15:34]
Tina
And I think I've since changed from that. But I will say she does. She does it so right for me. It's really these sentences that just make you stop and think and just ponder and reflect and underline and do all of the things. But like, also you're like, wait, but I want to keep going because there's this really good plot going on.
- [15:51]
Hannah
Yep.
- [15:52]
Tina
And she also gives you quite a few point of views. It's not just, you know, from one person's point of view. The chapters are short. You're hearing from Dominic, you're hearing from Rowan, which is the woman that washes up on shore. And then you're also hearing a little bit from the youngest of the Salt family. Yeah, he is so sweet. And I am not a reader that really loves, like a child point of view. Sometimes that can be an anti buzzword for me. If I know that, like, his name is Orly. If I know the little boy is getting a point of view, I could be like, oh, I don't know about that, but I think it used sparingly in Jesus.
- [16:23]
Hannah
It was used sparingly. Yep.
- [16:24]
Tina
Really well done. And he's this really interesting, quirky kid. And basically ever every one of his chapters is talking about one of these different seeds that they're protecting. And you really. It's just so evocative. It really gets you to understand the importance of what they're doing and what would happen and why seed banks exist and what would happen if we. Even the smallest seed, like a dandelion. Right. If we didn't have that. The effect that that would have on the world. And anyway, I have to stop because it's very easy to. To reflect back. Put it this way, by the end, and I think we said this maybe on a bonus episode, by the end, I was getting direct texts from Hannah, which usually if we are talking to each other, it's through Slack, just because it's like podcast stuff. But she was texting me for the last, like, maybe 50 or so pages, like, wait, da da, da da. And like, that's how you know it's a good reading experience when you cannot help but stop in the moment and, like, want to shout from the rooftops about what's happening in your book.
- [17:20]
Hannah
Yeah. Couldn't agree more. The very last third of this book is just pulse pounding, edge of your seat in the best way. And I also love that when it's not necessarily a thriller or a mystery, it's just that good of a story. And I just love it. I just love that feeling when you finish a book and you're like, this was it. This is why I read. This is why I read. Why was this book for me?
- [17:45]
Tina
Me too. And I had that same response. I'm like, this is why I read. Literally, Rowan made me want to be a better person. Like, just you find out about who she was and who she is and, you know, before she came to this island and just the things that she stood for, the things that she was fighting for and like, you know, just who she is. And I'm like, she's badass. And I remember we were Talking about heroines, you and I at one point, and I was like, gosh, I can't remember a heroine that I really kind of stuck vibed with. Probably because I read a lot of thrillers and sometimes those can be finicky. This one there was. Rowan was just such a character that I really came to enjoy reading.
- [18:22]
Hannah
Yeah, me too. I respected her a lot. And I really enjoyed following her relationship with everybody else in the story too. And I thought that was done really well and it felt really authentic. And they're not perfect characters. No, but you grow to really care about them a lot. And that takes good writing and storytelling too. When you've got these characters that are not perfect by any means, but you still really want to see them through until the end.
- [18:49]
Tina
Yes, exactly. Now, have you read all of her books or just Migrations?
- [18:52]
Hannah
So just Migrations in this one. But I tell you, after finishing this one, I was like, well, I know that I'm going to love. Is it when the Wolves Come Home?
- [19:00]
Tina
No, no. Once there were wolves, I knew wolves was in there. They're in there.
- [19:04]
Hannah
I was like, well, I already AM at 2 for 2. And not only did I like kind of like both of them, they were both five plus star reads for me. And so I know I'm gonna like her other one. And now I kind of feel like it's a flex to say that I haven't read it because now I get to read it for the first time.
- [19:20]
Tina
I'm actually jealous, correct? Yeah, I'm truly jealous. I think I read that one first and then I went back and read Migrations, and now I've read this one and I was really trying to debate if I like this one more or as much as Migrations. I think I like them both, which is like, equally, which is such high praise because Migrations is one of my all time favorite books. But yeah, I. I'm excited to go back and reread this. I was looking in the beginning, I had annotated this or I started, you know, I did my character list, but I have to keep going. But I was so in the moment of with this that I folded down. Like, this is what I tend to do. I'll fold down the page and just be like, okay, come back later. And like, do I usually come back? Not always, but for this book, I will. I'm gonna come back, look at my little folds, and like, find out what it was that I wanted to outline. And that's sort of like my way of rereading. But. But as you can tell we both loved it. So excited to chat with more readers about this one because this one just came out, what, in first week in March, maybe So just came out more. More and more people will be grabbing this, but this was wild. Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey.
- [20:25]
Hannah
Loved. Can't wait to chat in the group. I bet it'll be.
- [20:28]
Tina
I hope.
- [20:29]
Hannah
I hope it's a lively chat.
- [20:30]
Tina
I think it will be. I think it will be.
- [20:33]
Hannah
All right. Shall we. Shall we dive into historical fiction?
- [20:38]
Tina
Yes. I am excited to talk historical fiction with you.
- [20:42]
Hannah
Me too.
- [20:43]
Tina
And I know it's a genre that.
- [20:45]
Hannah
Both of us like, I think a lot, but we don't talk about it a ton.
- [20:50]
Tina
Yes.
- [20:51]
Hannah
Because I don't think it's the number one genre that you and I reach for, even though we both really love it. Would you say that that's true?
- [20:57]
Tina
Absolutely. And it's frustrating. What is with me? And I will say I was actually pondering this book talk, and I remember when we had Tracy from the stacks on to talk nonfiction and we asked her the question, why do you think it is people say nonfiction is boring? And she's like, I don't think it's boring. I'll turn it back to you. How do you think people say that? And I was sort of thinking about historical fiction. And I think the reason why at least I, or some people maybe don't reach for it right away because you're like, oh, is it going to be a little bit dry? Like, is this one? That's going to be a little bit boring? And at least for me, I feel like for some reason, even if I'm excited about a historical fiction book, I'm like, I'm not in the mood. And that. That I find that the mood never comes. However, then when I pick it up, more often than not, it's a four and a half, five star read. So I don't know why I tell myself that I'm gonna think historical fiction's boring, because it's most definitely not. I mean, some is. Some can be, but there's some really good ones.
- [21:52]
Hannah
I agree. And something that I thought was interesting is I. So I was listening to the currently reading podcast. I want to say that it was this most recent episode with Meredith was talking to Roxanna, who's a guest host on their podcast, and they were having a moment where they were talking about historical fiction. And I think it was Roxanna who mentioned this, and I thought it was a really interesting point and I wrote it down Because I knew we had this historical fiction episode coming up. And I was like, oh, that was a really good point that she made. And I want to bring that up. And she was talking about how the treatment of historical fiction is similar to, like, women's fiction or romance, where because it already has this bias, they're going to kind of slap the same cover on it every time of this woman with her back turns to the camera. And so when people kind of perceive the genre, it is a perceived as something maybe more like feminine. And so it only, like, targets this very certain audience, which. That's a whole conversation for another time that we don't have time to dive into here. But it has this. It has this bias toward it. And really it's a very deep genre that has a lot of sub genres and isn't necessarily tied to this maybe more like shallow or women's fiction bias that people so often associate it with. And she kind of just like mentioned that loosely. But it really got me thinking about how the public and how, yeah, just like the main social public might think about and perceive historical fiction that might give it this negative stereotype.
- [23:37]
Tina
Yeah, I love that. I hadn't heard that. And I completely agree. I do think it is. And even, like, I have the covers in front of me. What do you know, you've got a woman with her back to the camera. However, for this one. Anyway, I'll dive into it later on, but, yeah, you will find a lot of those similar covers. And I think a piece of it's trying to communicate okay, you know, as soon as you see that cover, you know what you're getting. You know, it's perfect. Probably going to be historical fiction. And so it's a bit of shorthand, but I do think these novels often get very much lumped together. I know. Something I hear all the time is like, I'm sick of World War II fiction. I'm sick of, you know, World War II fiction. And I think people tend to say, oh, yeah, if they hear historical fiction, they assume it's during. Set during a war. Because, I mean, beyond. Let's be honest. Yes, there were a lot of wars and there's a lot of books centered on that. But at least for the historical fiction I like, you can have a book that's centered, you know, know, during war times, but not necessarily centered in the conflict. Although I've read both. And I like. I'm thinking Immemorial by Alice Wynne. Loved that book. It was World War I, but I thought that one was Incredible. And you're actually in combat with these characters. But then I've read some other books as well, where it's sort of this thing that is, of course, taking place, you know, but it's the story. They're giving you this larger picture of what it was like to live in this time period via these very specific characters. Experiences.
- [25:01]
Hannah
Yeah. And when I was kind of thinking about this show and. Or this episode that we were going to do and really thinking about what historical fiction means, I was. Yeah, I was just looking into it and really similar to exactly what you just said. The key with historical fiction being that it brings historical events, cultures, or periods of time to life in a way that feels authentic and immersive to the reader. And that's really it. And so to your point, it could be in the point of action. It could just be about a character whose life might have been impacted by the culture or society at the time. And there are so many different ways that it can be positioned to still just feel authentic to that period of time and immersive to the reader. And that's really all it is to be historical fiction, right?
- [25:52]
Tina
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, you're making me think. I have so many things that I could respond to with this. The books that I'm bringing today, or I should say, like, the books that I tend to pick up are ones where I'm like, I don't know anything about that time period, but I'm really curious. And that's one of these that I am bringing today. I knew I read a fiction novel that had mentioned it, and so I was like, when I saw this one that's more historical fiction set during the time period, I'm like, oh, heck, yeah. I want to know more about this event. And you'll hear this in a moment. The other one that I have is more so about this character who's trying to live her life and achieve her dreams, but you can't escape the pulse of the time period. This one is set pre Civil War, like, right. Pretty much right before it. And so, like, you cannot escape the. The feelings and sort of the things that led up to those conflicts.
- [26:37]
Hannah
Yeah. I'm reading a book right now that I'm excited to bring to the show. I. I didn't finish it in time for this one, and it's. Well, I'm not going to mention it because you'll. You'll get to hear about it. You'll get to hear about it later on, but it's about the Tulsa race massacre and it has like a hundred reviews on Goodreads. I'm about halfway through and it's looking like a five star read for me already. It's a period of time that is very insular. And I think that the reason why I'm bringing it up is because I think too, we often think of historical fiction as like, for example, World War II. I mean, that's a swath of years that you could be talking about. And you could be talking about it from, you know, America's pov, from other countries pov. There's. There's a lot. Which is probably why there are so many World War II novels, because there's a lot that you can talk about and dissect and do with that time period. Whereas with something like the Tulsa race massacre, that's a little bit more. Well, it's insular for a community and a culture. It's insular for a specific time and it's insular to its place. And so I would love to read more historical fiction moving forward that really is kind of deeply pinpointed on this one thing and how it affected an entire community or one family or, you know, something like that. So that's something that I'm going to be looking for in my historical fiction reading. I think moving forward is really niche events or periods of time.
- [28:11]
Tina
Yes.
- [28:12]
Hannah
That the story is built around.
- [28:14]
Tina
No, you're absolutely right. And I think those are the ones that I tend to enjoy the most, is when I feel like I really can deep dive on a particular topic. Earlier you had mentioned the sub genres of historical fiction and I was like, gosh, yes, there are subgenres in historical fiction. And everyone sort of lumps it together. And then I was thinking, I'm like, what, what does that look like? Because you got. You have a lot of mashups too. You have historical romance, you have historical horror, which I like. You have historical mystery, you have ones that are wartime novels. But then you've got. I'm looking at this article also. It lists nautical and pirate. And then I was like, wow, we actually did read a pirate book last year. Last year with the ballot or the Battle of Jaquat de la Haye and historical legal thriller. Than I was thinking through, like I have read, I read this book. Gosh, what is it called? But basically it is around Lizzie Borden and what she had done to her family, but it's focused specifically on the trial. Oh, the book is See what I have Done by Sarah Schmidt. I recommend it. It's weird and like very the Writing is very visceral, so just know that going in. But I think, you know, I think the point that I'm trying to make is, is if you are somebody that's, like, maybe feeling like you're not one that tends to gravitate toward historical fiction, maybe try one of the sub genres or try finding something very specific that, you know, you had briefly heard of or loosely heard of that made you want to know more about it.
- [29:37]
Hannah
You also, if you're a literary fiction reader, which I feel like a lot of our listeners, especially our patrons, are literary fiction readers, you could also read literary historical fiction, I'm thinking even books like Cursed bread by Sophie McIntosh. What a weird book. Set during a really specific plague that happened in France in the. Oh, gosh, I don't remember what time period it was, but a very insular thing. And that book is definitely literary. And it's weird, you know, like this other book that you mentioned that you brought. It's weird, it's strange. It studies, like, women and women's relationships to, like, things that are happening in the world and also their partners. It's set within this really specific historical context. And so I would definitely lump it in with historical fiction, but it's also very literary. So there are so many ways that you can go with historical fiction today. For the books that I brought, I kind of tried to keep it not generic, but I tried to not genre bend too much.
- [30:38]
Tina
Yeah.
- [30:38]
Hannah
But I do think it would be fun to even do, like, a specific, like, historical genre blend episode or something like that. That would be so fun because there's just so many ways that you can go with this genre.
- [30:51]
Tina
No, and I think you're right. We have done an historical fiction episode before on booktok, et cetera, when it was me and Renee, and I remember we had defined, you know, what historical fiction is. I always am thinking what time period makes up historical fiction. Okay. One of the books I was going to try for this is called the Quiet Librarian by Alan Eskins. Alex. So I had two problems with this specific book, which made me hesitant to even bring it for this particular episode. Because I was thinking, does this actually count? Because one, it has dual timeline. So half of the book seems to be set in present day, and the other half flashes back to sort of the early 90s in. During the times of the Bosnian war. And so I was like, I don't. I think you could still call a book historical fiction, even if only half of it is. But I was looking for something that was a bit more Sort of straight historical for this particular episode. But then the other thing is, is that the historical piece takes place in the early 90s. And so I was like, what. What time period is historical fiction? I think we were reading definitions on the last episode, and it's something like, you know, what is it, 40 years or. Or before?
- [32:02]
Hannah
Some people say 30, some people say 30. But from everything that I looked up, there is. It's somewhere between 30 and 50. And people have differing opinions, but at least, like, on the low end, 30 years prior to the time that it was written. Or some people also say it has to be 30 to 50 years prior to the time that the author was born, which is totally different. Like, completely different.
- [32:27]
Tina
What?
- [32:28]
Hannah
People have some very interesting, though, opinions about it. And I think at the end of the day, like, I would think at the time that it was written, because that's, like, the culturally present moment.
- [32:38]
Tina
Yeah.
- [32:39]
Hannah
So that's where my opinion lies. But there are plenty of other opinions out there, so it's kind of interesting.
- [32:44]
Tina
That's really interesting. Yeah. And this is one genre that I think, you know, we could debate back and forth on what time period counts. But I was laughing because I was, like, really taking it seriously, because I was like, well, it's. It began in the early 90s, so it starts, I think, in 1991. Like, what? And so I was like, all right, you know what? I'm going to put this one aside. And instead I went for a couple of others. But that is really everything that I sort of wanted to talk through with you, specifically about historical fiction. And it's one of those things where I'm like, I always want you to read more fantasy and historical fiction. I don't know why, even though I feel like. Because I feel like you really enjoy them. But then I could be saying the same about me. My wish for me is that I stop, you know, putting off historical fiction books and instead just dive in and, like, no, you're probably gonna like it. Let's be honest.
- [33:28]
Hannah
Yeah, you can read more historical fiction, too. Permission. Permission granted.
- [33:33]
Tina
Permission granted. Okay. And listeners, let us know if you are a historical fiction person, if you are a historical fiction reader, and if you would like to hear us, you know, bring more of those books to the podcast.
- [33:44]
Hannah
Yeah, well, I'm definitely going to be here in the next couple of episodes, probably because there were also so many books that I wanted to read for this upcoming episode, and I just didn't have the time and the bandwidth. I can think of, like, three off the top of my head where I was like, oh, it's finally time to read this. But then I just didn't have the time to make it happen. But I was like, you know what? I'm putting them on my nightstand. I am going to read these, and I hope that I give myself permission to do that.
- [34:12]
Tina
Is that your way? You're going to speak it into existence? Is that your way of kind of making a short physical TBR is if you put it on your nightstand?
- [34:22]
Hannah
Yeah, because I'm someone that really struggles to, like, out of sight, out of mind for me. That's a very real thing for me. And so if it's on my nightstand, it really makes an imprint on my brain. I see it every night before I go to bed, and I'll even remember it, like, weeks later. Even if I eventually move it to a shelf, I'll still be like, oh, yeah, I had that on my nightstand for a while. I'm gonna choose that on audio or something like that.
- [34:45]
Tina
I love that. Yes. So it, like, sort of earmarks it, like, yes, you knew, and you're probably a visual person, so you can remember seeing it over there on your nightstand.
- [34:55]
Hannah
That's why a rainbow shelf works for me, because when someone is like, oh, what's that book? I'm not thinking of the author. I'm thinking of, oh, yeah, that's that book with the really pink cover, and it's got the sushi on it.
- [35:07]
Tina
Yeah, Right.
- [35:08]
Hannah
So now I know what section to go to on my bookshelf to grab it.
- [35:12]
Tina
So. Yeah, yeah. No, and that's so funny. So I'm holding a book in front of me right now. It's Wild Dark Shore. And the problem I have with my rainbow shelves is this is an arc. And I knew I was looking for it, and I'm like, it's orange. Why can't I find it? Why is it not with orange? And I was like, because it's with the black.
- [35:27]
Hannah
Spine is black, and brown is brown.
- [35:29]
Tina
Anyway, reader problems. I will begin with the first historical fiction book that I'm bringing today, which is clear by Karis Davies. And this is one. Gosh. I think I picked it up. It got on my radar when it was published last year in 2024. And I just remember seeing a lot of people enjoy it. And I knew. I knew nothing about it. I just remembered the COVID and I was like, ooh, water. I tend to like, like books that center on water. I guess I'm having a real water theme going on right now, but I didn't know anything about it. And then I grabbed it because I realized that this is set in 1843 in Scotland during the Highland Clearances. And that is the piece of historical fiction that had me really interested because I read the novel the Inheritance by Tricia Saklecha, and that one takes place in Scot in this, like, big manner. But one of the characters in that novel sort of had a lot of ire toward people that moved to Scotland. And they had referenced the Scott, the Highland clearings. And I was like, wait a minute, I need to learn more about what that means. So this book is, again, it takes place on this remote Scottish island, and Ivor is the sole occupant. Ivor leads a life of quiet isolation until the day he finds a man unconscious on the beach below the cliffs. Wow. I'm really seeing the parallels now between Wild Dark Shore and clear. I didn't mean to do that because I had so much space to find them. Yeah, it. Yes, it is fun because they're finding. And, you know, I like when, like, a person, like, shows up unannounced, like it's a dead body. Are they alive? What. What's going on here? And that's also.
- [37:06]
Hannah
Especially if they stay.
- [37:08]
Tina
Especially if they stay. And that's also something that appealed to me because the newcomer is John Ferguson. And you find out, you know, as you're reading this, who he is. An impoverished church minister who was sent to evict Ivor and take him to his home. So it's basically, this is the last guy, and this man comes to essentially evict Ivor, but something happens when he gets there and he gets injured. And so they sort of have to work together. And the thing is, they do not speak the same language. And so Ivor is like, okay, who's this guy? I don't know what to do. So he ends up taking him home. And the rest of the story follows them as this fragile bond begins to form between them. But meanwhile, John's wife, Mary is anxiously awaiting news of his mission because she's like, where did he go? Like, he can't call her. Right? And also he, you know, sort of. I guess they didn't, you know, have phones back then. There was really no way, like, what's he gonna do? Like, send a letter? And so anyway, it's against this rugged backdrop of the faraway Scott beyond Shetland, Kara Stavy's intimate drama unfolds with tension and tenderness. And it's about these ordinary people who are trying to really figure out and Find their way toward each other. All right, so ultimately, what did I think about this novel? I feel like I enjoyed my reading experience. I did the audio, the narration was fantastic. It was Scottish narration and I love the author's accent. In fact, I loved listening to it so much I did not speed it up that much. I think I did it at like 1.5 because I was just really enjoying it. It's also quite slim. It's a pretty short novel. I don't think it's a novel personally, but it's pretty slim. And this one is about under. It's under 200 pages. And the book that I'm holding has a reader's guide, which I love when they include those readers guides.
- [38:58]
Hannah
Me too.
- [38:59]
Tina
Yeah. I enjoyed what this book had to say about language and sort of this idea of, okay, this pastor doesn't want to do this, but he is desperate to get paid. And so he. It's kind of the ethics of like, what do you do for your family versus, like, what's right, Especially when you come to know the people that you're here to, you know. Because he wasn't expecting to be evicted. And so it just was very interesting to unpack what that meant. I don't know. It is a very sparse book. It's one where I think you could easily sit with some of the things and the themes that it points out. I know it's an award winner. I think a lot of people, especially if you like, you know, really sort of these literary novels that allow you to dig in, I think you would like it. I liked it fine. I don't know that this, this is one that's like going to make it on my personal all time favorites list. But I am glad I read it. I do feel like I learned a little bit more and I like some of the themes that were in here that were definitely unexpected. So this book is clear by Carys Davies.
- [40:04]
Hannah
I am glad you brought that one. It was on my radar last year, but I had forgotten about it. And when you mentioned you were reading it for this show, I was like, what book is she talking about? And then you described the COVID and I was like, oh, I remember that last year here. And I'm bringing a book that's actually pretty similar. It's another kind of slim book that is very sparse and a little bit on the dark side and that is the Witching Tide by Margaret Meyer. So this is about Martha, who is a midwife and servant in 1645 England. So we're going pretty far Back here, she is forced to confront a dark secret. When she is enlisted to search the bodies of accused witches. Witches, she ends up reviving a poppet. So this like wax witching doll in the hope of protection, but its true powers are unknown. So this was a, again, like a really sparse, bleak story and similar to how you felt about Clear. I felt like this book really provided me with new insights into witch hunts, but specifically witch hunts beyond the United States. A lot of the books that I have read on this subject have taken place during like the Salem witch trials. And I'm always interested in reading material around that topic as well. But it was really interesting to see how these things occurred outside of the United States in both how they were similar and how they were different. This book was really dark and atmospheric. It just made you feel kind of cold and yucky. It's dark and gloomy tone, honestly, just left me feeling so depressed after I read it.
- [41:46]
Tina
Oh, no.
- [41:47]
Hannah
Which is not how I would particularly want to feel after reading a book, but also understandable considering the subject matter. While this was not what I would call a hopeful read, it was insightful and thought provoking. I think if you enjoy books by Hannah Kent. I don't know if you've read any books by Hannah Kent.
- [42:05]
Tina
I know who you're talking about, but I haven't.
- [42:06]
Hannah
I've read the Good People by Hannah Kent, and I remember just having a very similar feeling after reading this one than I did after reading that one. Just very like, wow, that was really thought provoking, but also so dark. So, yeah, I think if you enjoy that kind of historical fiction, this could be one that you should consider giving a shot. I thought it was really interesting. And that is the Witching Tide by Margaret My.
- [42:30]
Tina
I'm glad you brought this. I think I had a copy of it, or I may have a copy of it somewhere around here. And it's one of those books that I again, didn't pick up because I'm like, it's gonna be slow. Like, you know what I mean? Even though I'm interested in the subject matter. And I always want to read more books set on not Salem witch childs necessarily, but just that the thought of that in general. So I'm glad you ended up picking this up. All right. The next one for me worked much better. And this is the Unexpected Diva by Tiffany Warren. Tiffany L. Warren. All right, so this one is about a black opera singer named Elizabeth Taylor Greenfield, who reigned supreme on northern stages and she even performed at Buckingham Palace. So this is a Real person. And we were reading this for my in person book club. And it's one of those books where I was like, wow, this is really about this woman. And it was sort of making me think, like, how would I feel if I were her? Like, you know, looking from the great beyond, knowing that this woman has made up so much of my life story. But it was a really, really good one. She though begins the story begins, she was born into slavery on a Mississippi plantation. And she was raised by this woman who lived in Philadelphia's Quaker community. And she was a wealthy woman. She was her adopted mother. And so Eliza grew up sheltered and well educated and really loved music. And so this woman had the means to nurture that. And she has this glorious three octave singing voice that leaves listeners in awe. But on the eve of her 24th birthday day, the woman dies. And so Eliza gets her inheritance. And she's thinking, okay, not a problem. I will continue my lesson. She's really interested in becoming this opera singer, and she knows she has the gift. However, this woman's cousins come out of the woodwork and contest the inheritance. So she really doesn't have a lot of options. It is again before the Civil War, and she is a black woman, and she does not have any means. She doesn't have any family that's alive and in the United States. And so she can either marry her longtime friend Lucia, or she can work as a tutor for rich families. Overall, I really liked this one. I think it was a book that could have gone one way, and it did a really good job touching on slavery, touching on the days and the months leading up to the Civil War without making that the entire story. And I appreciate that because I think for this one, if you're picking this book up, you're going to be curious about the first black opera singer. Like, oh, what's her backstory? How did she come into this position? And I appreciated that the author nodded to the conversations that must have been happening during this time and place, especially, you know, in the black community, but didn't spend too much time there. And it does not get overly graphic. And so. Oh, I just kept saying with this. It was a nice read. It was very pleasant. I enjoyed it very much. It was not boring at all. It's a little bit long. This one is over 400 pages. But I just really settled in and I enjoyed following this woman. And there' some really great scenes at the end where you get to see how this woman used her gift. The only bad thing about this novel is That I wanted. I stupidly was googling recording of Elizabeth Taylor Greenfield opera singing. And then I remembered they like probably didn't have the ability to record during those times. And so obviously I couldn't find anything. But I was very interested in her and I was curious to see how much of it like was true to form. And that's always the sign of a good book. And a good reading experience for me is when I'm googling and trying to figure out like, okay, okay, what happened in real life to this person. So I highly recommend this one. I think it was just a really, really nice story and it's definitely under the radar right now. It only has 261 ratings. This one is the Unexpected Diva by Tiffany L. Warren.
- [46:16]
Hannah
I love an unexpected or an underrated.
- [46:19]
Tina
An unexpected diva.
- [46:21]
Hannah
An unexpected diva of a book.
- [46:23]
Tina
We don't like the title though. The whole book club was like, we hate the title. Why would they call it that?
- [46:27]
Hannah
Well, because it makes the book seem more shallow.
- [46:30]
Tina
Exactly. And I'm like, it's not shallow. And in fact what she was, was a. I think they called a belladonna or something. I'm now forgetting the term that they use for this opera singer. And I was like, diva, like made it more modern too. Like, I think that was. They were trying to do like the Beyonce's and all of that.
- [46:48]
Hannah
But what's that word? I bet you know it. And I bet you know what I'm talking about where people aren't speaking appropriate for the time.
- [46:54]
Tina
I don't know. I know exactly what you mean though.
- [46:56]
Hannah
There's a word my friend Katie would know.
- [47:01]
Tina
What?
- [47:01]
Hannah
Friend.
- [47:01]
Tina
Phone a friend.
- [47:02]
Hannah
Phone a friend. Friend. If you know the word, let us know.
- [47:06]
Tina
Let us know in the comments.
- [47:07]
Hannah
There's a word for us. There's a word for it. But diva does seem like it's like not appropriate for the time.
- [47:12]
Tina
Exactly.
- [47:13]
Hannah
Okay. My next one is the Heaven and Earth Grocery store by James McBride. And this book intertwines the lives of characters living in Chicken Hill, which is an impoverished neighborhood of immigrant Jewish families and black Americans in the nineteen nineteen seventies, as they share ambitions and secrets and work together to protect a deaf child in their community from institutionalization. And this book was really popular a couple of years ago. I want to say it got either nominated for awards or won some. And I completely see why. This book is really rich with thematic depth. I think that this would be a great book for even like academic study in high school or college English courses. It is not a light read, which apparently is something that's kind of a trend for me with reading historical fiction. But as opposed to the other book that I brought previously, the Witching Tide, this one does have more life and joy, and there is more of a hopeful element to this one. And it just offers a lot of material, I think, for analysis, analysis and discussion. I really appreciated that in this story lies the struggle of people living on the margins of white Christian America and the collective community effort to embrace and protect one another. Even though you're different, but you're still fighting the systematic oppression of something similar. And I thought that this was just beautiful and reflective and hopeful at its heart. I would personally recommend this to. To literary readers. We talked earlier about how literary fiction and historical fiction can blend really nicely together. And I think if you're a literary fiction reader who wants to dive into historical fiction, this would be a great place to start. It has flawed characters, but ultimately offers a story of resilience, community, and hope. I do think that one significant thing to keep in mind with this one is there is some sexual assault that happens on the page, and it's really surprising. And it's not really mentioned at all. Like, you don't know that it's coming. And it was pretty jarring. I am not a sensitive reader, but it stood out to me. And so I think that if that is something that you are going to be alarmed by or really, really triggered by, then that might be something to keep in mind going into this one. I don't always mention content warnings, but thought that it was apt to do so for this particular book. But I really loved it. I would highly recommend it. And that is the Heaven and Earth Grocery store by James McMahon Bride.
- [49:58]
Tina
I'm glad you brought that one. It's one I've always had my radar on, and I heard really good things about it. Yeah, I think I tried to read it like it. There's a lot of characters in this one, right?
- [50:09]
Hannah
Yeah, there are quite a few.
- [50:10]
Tina
And I was like, oh, I don't know about this. I think I tried. I started and I was like, I met more than, like, five people. I was like, I don't know if I can handle this.
- [50:17]
Hannah
Yeah, this one was similar to almost how I view, like, a fantasy novel where you got to give it 100 pages and trust that eventually you're just gonna figure it out. Or like, a reality TV show where, like, at first there are so many characters and you're like, I don't know who these people are. But then by episode four, you're like, oh, my gosh, like, this person's gonna do this. And that's totally this person.
- [50:38]
Tina
Yeah, yeah.
- [50:39]
Hannah
You gotta trust yourself.
- [50:41]
Tina
I like that you equated it to reality tv, which are terms that, like, a language that I'm fluid in. No, it's a language I'm fluent in. So I was like, I get it.
- [50:48]
Hannah
Exactly.
- [50:49]
Tina
I understand.
- [50:50]
Hannah
You know, you're gonna be bombarded, but eventually you're gonna be like, you'll get it.
- [50:54]
Tina
Yeah. Okay, good. All right. My shelf edition is one that I'm holding in my hands. And it is Good and Evil by and Other Stories by Samantha Schweblin. And I have read her once before. It was her debut novel, Fever Dream, which really was a perfect title because that book was wild. This one does not come out for some time. It comes out on September 16th. But they are six lucid, strange and supple stories to lure us into the shadows so that we may confront the monsters of everyday lives ourselves. So this one is a short story collection. As you might have guessed from the title. Samantha Schweblin's Good and Evil is such a book. They are calling this Sculpted and Lucid, Strange and Uncanny in a Masterpiece. And this is the six stories. One of the stories is a mother who resurfaces from the depths of the lake behind her house. Another, a dying woman calls a friend she hasn't spoken to in 30 years, not since an accident that forever changed them both. So I need to know what's going on. It says guilt, grief and relationships severed permeate this collection. But so do the unspeakable bonds of family, love and longing. Listen, I think this one is going to be really, really good. I also think it's going to be very buzzy. It is a book in translation and it's Translated by Megan McDowell. But this is Good and Evil in Other Stories by Samantha. Samantha Schweblin.
- [52:21]
Hannah
Yeah, that one sounds really good. My shelf edition is Story of a Murder, the Wives, the Mistress and doctor Crippen by Helly Rubenhold. Listen, I won this on a Goodreads giveaway.
- [52:34]
Tina
Excuse me, I've never done that. I didn't know those exist. I didn't know those really? People really won.
- [52:39]
Hannah
I always hear people, well, see, I always hear people like in my real life say, oh, yeah, I entered it. And I wonder, like, a couple of my friends have won, like, several of them, and I'm like, I never have. And so I recently, in the last year, have just started entering a bunch and I finally won one.
- [52:57]
Tina
Hello.
- [52:57]
Hannah
And I am excited about this one. So I read the Five by this author, which was a story about the women who were murdered by Jack the Ripper. And what Hallie Rubenhold does really well. Well is this is the story of a murderer, not a murderer. And she examines the infamous 1910 disappearance of Belle Elmore, who was a music hall performer whose vanishing led to a shocking discovery of an international manhunt for her husband, Dr. Holly Harvey Crippen. And this is going to have, I know, a bunch of twists and things that we don't know about her disappearance and this particular murder.
- [53:43]
Tina
Murder.
- [53:43]
Hannah
But this author really focuses on the victim, the one who was murdered, and not the murderer. And she does it really, really well. So I know that I loved the Five by this author. I'm really excited to dive into this one. And that is the story of a the Wives, the Mistress and doctor Crippen by Hallie Rubenhold.
- [54:02]
Tina
Oh, that sounds really good. Well, that is it for today. Thank you so much for spending a part of your day with us. Links to all the books mentioned can be found in the show notes. And if you enjoyed today's episode, you can help us by following wherever you listen and by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps us get our show out to new listeners and grows our audience. And don't forget, if you'd like access to exclusive bonus content and community, you can join us for $5 a month on patreon.com booktalk Etc.
- [54:30]
Hannah
If you'd like to connect with us, you can email us@booktalk etcmail.com you can also connect with us both at Booktok Etc. On Instagram, Book Talk Etc on YouTube. You can also follow Tina at TBR Etc. And Hannah at HandpickedBooks. Talk to you next week. And in the meantime, remember, everything's better with books.
- [54:52]
Tina
Jonathan just goes, mistress of Rome. I told her about the conversation goes. Okay, cool. You're too high on the camera. Oh, are you here? He is here.
- [55:02]
Hannah
Okay, to be fair, the camera here earlier is not working. Yeah, I mean, it is, but it's not like auto focusing.
- [55:11]
Tina
It's not.
- [55:12]
Hannah
It's not.