Belle Burden on Her Memoir, Writing Through Pain, and the Sandwich Story the Internet Can't Stop Talking About

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club

Episode Title: Belle Burden on Her Memoir, Writing Through Pain, and the Sandwich Story the Internet Can't Stop Talking About
Date: May 12, 2026
Host: Danielle Robay
Featured Guest: Belle Burden

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Episode Overview

This episode features Belle Burden, author of the memoir Strangers: A Memoir of a Marriage. The conversation, led by Danielle Robay (with contributions from Reese Witherspoon), dives deep into Belle's experience of public heartbreak, the internet-viral "sandwich story," financial choices in marriage, finding agency after betrayal, and the nuances of writing through pain. Burden’s journey—marked by her husband’s abrupt departure and the subsequent unraveling of her seemingly perfect life—has resonated widely, sparking both literary and pop-cultural fervor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Impact of Publicly Sharing Personal Pain

• Public Reaction:

  • Belle describes having her intimate story turned over by readers and the public as “intense,” simultaneously validating and at times leaving her feeling misunderstood (04:52).
  • She notes that many women relate to her memoir, even if they haven’t experienced her exact circumstances—pain and the process of “muting” oneself in relationships are universal themes (06:08, 06:47).

• On the Sandwich Story (The Internet Phenomenon):

  • Belle recounts the scene where she made her husband a sandwich after he announced he wanted a divorce, emphasizing her intent to model kindness for her daughter rather than compliance with her husband (11:21–14:17).
  • Quote:
    • “People think I was thinking about him, but I wasn't thinking about him at all. I was thinking about her.” (13:30, Belle Burden)

2. Silence vs. Speaking Out

• Belle reflects on intergenerational silence about infidelity, especially among women in her family, and how choosing to speak up changes inherited power dynamics (07:46–09:18).
• Quote:
  • “It is the silence that results in things like this being repeated across generations and families, including my own. It also serves most often the man in the relationship or the person with power and money.” (08:40, Belle Burden)

3. Choices in Marriage and Financial Consequences

• Prenup Decisions:

  • Belle details how she altered her prenuptial agreement against legal advice due to trust and wanting to support her husband’s sense of equality, ultimately to her detriment (15:09–18:38).

• Cautionary Tale:

  • She urges women to maintain visibility and partnership in financial matters, to read tax returns, and to imagine worst-case scenarios even in happy marriages (18:02).
  • Quote:
    • “If my book results in women…pushing for visibility, pushing for true partnership…my book will have had a great purpose if that's the case.” (18:12, Belle Burden)

• Emotional vs. Rational Decisions:

  • Belle, a former corporate lawyer, admits she lost confidence in financial matters and equated financial sharing with love, only to realize the importance of personal agency (22:22–24:23).

4. Grappling with Her Husband’s Actions and Their Impact on the Children

• Belle refuses to portray her ex-husband as sinister, but is candid about his limitations, particularly his decision not to seek custody (41:44–43:57).
• Quote:
  • “It's absolutely 100% the hardest part of this. This period for me has been finite, and for them, it's their whole lives.” (42:26, Belle Burden)

5. The Cover and the Symbolism of Ospreys

• The memoir's cover features two ospreys, symbolizing cycles of family, nature, and resilience; the birds’ annual nesting paralleled the changes in Burden’s own family (26:39–28:41).
• Quote:
  • “Nature's cycles and the predictability of it…and the repetition of it year after year, knowing that they were going to…come back in April was really comforting.” (28:11, Belle Burden)

6. Influence of Taylor Swift & Cultural Catharsis

• Belle credits Taylor Swift (particularly Folklore and the song “Happiness” from Evermore) for companionship and inspiration during her darkest moments post-divorce (28:45–30:19).

7. Writing Through Pain: Scar vs. Wound

• Belle discusses the advice “share from the scar, not the wound,” and how she tried to walk the line between raw emotion and reflection, finding value in both immediate and distanced writing (31:14–32:03).

8. Visibility, Agency, and Reinvention

• Belle, reflecting on her journey, asserts that “there is such beauty and agency”—hard-won but deeply valuable. She hopes readers are encouraged not just to protect themselves but to believe in the possibility of reinvention after trauma (45:10–45:25).
• Quote:
  • “For me on the bathroom floor, I think a lot of people end up there. That you can get to the other side and there can be a life that is better that you didn’t even think you could ever want.” (44:49, Belle Burden)

9. Adaptation and Anonymity

• Belle shares thoughts about the upcoming Netflix adaptation (potentially starring Gwyneth Paltrow) and her choice to change her husband’s name in the memoir for her family's privacy (39:15–41:44).

10. What’s Next for Belle

• She intends to write fiction—likely focused on family relationships, not science fiction—and continues to work as a lawyer (45:57–46:34).
• Belle also has a side passion: making jam (46:40), joking about competing with Meghan, Duchess of Sussex.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On being misunderstood in memoir:
  • “You write it, you put it out into the world, and then you really have to let go because then it's everyone's experience of it they bring to it that matters.” (05:14, Belle Burden)
• On agency:
  • “It was hard fought, but I would never give it up now.” (45:15, Belle Burden)
• On what she hopes readers take away:
  • “I hope that it helps people feel that even in the lowest moments, in total despair…that you can get to the other side and there can be a life that is better.” (44:49, Belle Burden)

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Key Timestamps

• Intro to Belle’s story & memoir's origins — 02:32–03:33
• Public response to memoir & sandwich story — 04:52–07:04, 11:21–14:17
• On generational silence and breaking it — 07:46–09:18
• Financial decisions & consequences — 15:09–18:38
• Reflections on agency, trust, and security — 22:22–24:23
• Husband’s lack of interest in custody — 41:44–43:57
• Nature, ospreys, and healing — 26:39–28:41
• Taylor Swift’s influence — 28:45–30:19
• Scar vs. wound in memoir writing — 31:14–32:03
• Adapting to TV/Film, anonymity choices — 39:15–41:44
• Final thoughts on reinvention & next projects — 45:10–46:40
• Rapid-fire literary round (“Book Lightning Round”) — 47:44–49:47

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Rapid-Fire Literary Round Highlights (47:44–49:47)

• Book for Comfort: Ina Garten’s cookbooks
• Book for Escapism: Anything by Emily Giffin or Elin Hilderbrand
• Book for Strength: The Daily Stoic
• Book to Gift: Graydon Carter’s memoir
• Book She’d Reread for the First Time: Harriet the Spy
• Book She Wishes She Wrote: Euphoria by Lily King
• Favorite Bookstore Section: New Fiction
• Book that Shaped Her: Nine Stories by J.D. Salinger
• Dream Audiobook Narrator: Her stepmother, Susan

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The Takeaway

Belle Burden’s candid conversation explores how to write openly about private pain, the complexity of forging agency amid devastation, and the impact of sharing one's truth. Her story—viral sandwich and all—encourages listeners to examine their own relationships, protect their interests, and believe in the possibility of beauty and growth on the other side of heartbreak.

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“There is such beauty and agency. There really is. And it was hard fought, but I would never give it up now.”
— Belle Burden (45:15)

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For more literary discussion, follow Reese’s Book Club on Apple Books and Instagram.

Transcript

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[Reese Witherspoon]

food, see the best jazz music, and

[Danielle Robay]

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[Reese Witherspoon]

we booked today's guest because her memoir

[Danielle Robay]

was all anybody could talk about for months. It's truly been one of the buzziest books of the whole year. And you know, I'm a curious girl by nature. I was dying to talk to her. And it just so happens I host the Reese's Book Club podcast. So lucky me. Strike that. Lucky us. So for anybody who hasn't guessed what book I'm talking about yet, I want to set the stage for you. Bell Burden had a picture perfect life. A husband in finance, three kids, a pristine apartment in Manhattan, and a summer home on Martha's Vineyard. And then one day, right at the start of the pandemic, she found out that her husband was having an affair. And the next morning, he tells her he wants out. Out of the house, out of the marriage, even out of custody for their kids.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I mean, it's a horror story, but

[Danielle Robay]

Belle wrote her way out of it.

[Bell Burden]

There is such beauty and agency. There really is. And it was hard fought, but I would never give it up now.

[Danielle Robay]

First she wrote a New York Times Modern Love column, then a best selling book which she titled Strangers A Memoir of a Marriage. And now Netflix is adapting her story. Gwyneth Paltrow is going to be playing her. And I wanted to know what now? Where do you go to start over when the whole world watched the fall? And how do you turn what feels like a shocking ending into an empowering beginning? You are all in the right place today. Let's turn the page with Bell Burden.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Hi, Bel. Welcome to the club.

[Bell Burden]

Hi, Danielle. I'm so, so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Well, I am so glad you're here. I've been really, really wanting to talk to you, mostly because your book moved me so deeply. And also it's all anybody has been able to talk about for months. It's really been the it book. But instead of being like a steamy beach read, it's a memoir about your divorce and really the unraveling of your life as you once knew it. And I was thinking, you know, this isn't a novel the way people get obsessed with fiction. This is really your real life. What has it felt like to have such an intimate part of your life publicly interpreted and debated?

[Bell Burden]

It's really intense. It's an intense experience and for the most part, it's really so validating and wonderful to have people read it and understand how I was feeling, to understand What I was trying to say, to write to me very intimately on DMs or by mail or by email about how they felt about it, and to be understood in that way is really powerful. There are moments where I feel misunderstood, and that can be hard. For example, about the sandwich that I made for my husband, that's, I felt, been misinterpreted sometimes, but that, you know, that's what memoir is. You write it, you put it out into the world, and then you really have to let go because then it's everyone's experience of it they bring to it that matters. But if I think about the number of people who've read these very intimate things about myself, I just. I have to stop thinking. I have to, like, really just stop thinking.

[Reese Witherspoon]

There are millions of women that are finding your story so relatable. I'm one of them. I haven't experienced your exact life path, and yet I found so much, so resonant to my own life. I'm not even married yet. What do you think is hating people so universally?

[Bell Burden]

I think people find different things in it. It's hard to really know. But I think maybe it's really talking about pain in a way that's very plain and very open, and maybe that's what people connect to the most.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I think you're right. There's parts of it too, that I'm wondering if almost every woman who has been in a romantic partnership can know the feeling of almost like muting or burying parts of themselves at some point. And I. I feel as if you explained that so beautifully.

[Bell Burden]

Thank you. Thank you. Because muted is the right word. I think I was. And I think the other thing is maybe being blindsided and not ever being given an answer and having to move forward and live with that unknowing. I think that is pretty universal.

[Reese Witherspoon]

We're talking at a moment where there was a rapper, a well known female rapper that was cheated on the other day, and she sort of put out a bunch of Instagram stories sharing what happened. And the discourse around her sharing was so interesting to me because some people were saying, like, you know, women should be able to tell their truths and share their stories and share their pain. And other people were saying, you know, this is sort of trashy, like, keep your business to yourself. Yeah, I'm sure that not only did you have that feedback, but I'm sure it was going through your mind too. How did you think about that? Like, the cultural aspect?

[Bell Burden]

I thought a lot about it both within my family of origin, both my Mother and my grandmother were with partners that were unfaithful in a serial way. And they were taught and modeled for me that you never talk about it. In fact, you clean up the mess. You prioritize staying quiet. You prioritize protecting the man, protecting the man's reputation. I never thought I would be in this situation, but I found myself in it. And there was a strong tide, I felt it, of stay quiet about it. Say that, you know, perhaps you actually wanted the divorce too. Like, clean this up in a very neat way that makes everyone look good and does air any dirty laundry. That was reinforced in the community I happened to be in when this happened on Martha's Vineyard. A very married, pretty traditional waspy community. And there were people who thought me talking about it actually was worse than him leaving in the way that he did. So there was a real tide of that. But I end up thinking that it is the silence that results in things like this being repeated across generations and families, including my own. It also serves most often the man in the relationship or the person with power and money. And in doing so, I think it's, you know, a real detriment to us and probably serves a lot of the power structures that we find in this world as women.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I've been thinking a lot about it, too, because women are coming out with their truths more often than I remember when I was growing up. And it's sometimes shocking and so empowering.

[Bell Burden]

It is. I think the world would be a better place if more of us told our stories. And that was definitely in mind. As I wrote mine, I was conscious that if I wrote it in too angry of a way too emotional, that I might be a less reliable narrator. So I was very conscious of writing it in a way that was fair. And maybe my legal training helped in this, that that equilibrium never gets off balance so that people could actually absorb some of the bigger themes in it.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I know you know this, but every friend that I had that read your book, we were all surmising what your husband's deal is, right? Like, everybody was like, what the hell happened to that man? And you didn't write about him. It was your story. And I thought that was so brilliant.

[Bell Burden]

Yes, it started with him, and it started with his decision, and it started with me trying to understand his decision and the why. And I never get it. He never offers it. I'm not sure he knows to this day why and why then. But I was forced to switch the focus to me pretty early on. And I think once I did that in My life, I became. And once I did that in the book, it kind of shifted the energy of the book to be about me. And it is very much my story, my perspective. He, I'm sure, would write a very different book.

[Reese Witherspoon]

So before you find your agency in your life, and then in the memoir, there is this very memorable scene where you make a sandwich. Will you share this story for anybody who hasn't read the book? And then I'll ask you about it?

[Bell Burden]

Sure. So it was about a month after he left. He came back so that we could tell our daughters about the divorce. It is one of the worst moments for parents, for kids. You remember it always, particularly the kids. And so he told them. We were in our living room. My younger daughter was very upset and ran down the stairs. My older daughter sat there on the couch looking at us. And my then husband said to me, I'm starving. Can you make me a sandwich? And I think where it gets misinterpreted. So I make the sandwich. Spoiler alert. I make the sandwich. I make the best sandwich I could possibly make.

[Reese Witherspoon]

The best sandwich ever.

[Bell Burden]

Ever.

[Reese Witherspoon]

The perfect sandwich.

[Bell Burden]

And I'll tell you why I did that. But first, the decision to make it or not. I think people, some people see it as black and white. Like, if you make the sandwich, you're compliant and deferential. And if you don't make the sandwich, you are and clear and aware of what he has done to you and that you are being your own woman. I don't disagree with that. But for me, in that moment, I actually was thinking about my daughter. So she is sitting there watching her parents who have just told her that they are divorcing. And we are taught. Divorcing people are taught that the greatest priority is to model, that you will be kind to each other, that you'll be good to each other, that you will care for each other even though you're splitting up, that you will still resemble a family in some way. So there was a large part of me that wanted to say, go make your own sandwich. You used to live here. You know how to make a sandwich. But I wanted to model that for her. And I was so desperate in that moment for things to be okay for my kids, you know, for it to just not be as dire. And if I had said something confrontational in that moment, it felt like it would have made that moment even worse for her. So I think the misunderstanding is that people think I was thinking about him, but I wasn't thinking about him at all. I was thinking about Her. And having lived through this six years later, I might do something different. I might model something different for her with some more thought about how I would say it, but that's really what was going on. And then when I make the best sandwich ever, it's not so much to please him, but it's to kind of try and jostle his memory to think about what he's giving up. I did not want him to stay at that moment. He was so unrecognizable to me. But I wanted him to feel what he was losing. Like the sandwich representing home and nurturing and family and all the things that we created together. So it is a symbolic thing that's sandwiched. But I think there's a lot more to it sometimes than people say.

[Reese Witherspoon]

That scene hit me so deeply because I have been there and I think so many people have, where you wrap up sort of this trivial thing or task or gift or whatever it is with memories and self worth. It was just really beautifully written. It could have been a short story unto itself.

[Bell Burden]

Thank you.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I also love the complication of all of it. And that story exemplifies the many meanings in your writing. I think one of the other sort of complicated things that you write about is the financial aspects of your relationship with your ex husband. And your family had considerable wealth and he didn't have much when you were married and first met. Can you share the financial decisions you made early on in your relationship with him?

[Bell Burden]

Sure. So the first financial decision that I made was before we got married, around our prenup. My family insisted that we have a prenup and my lawyer delivered to him and to me a very standard prenup which says that you keep what you came into the marriage with. But anything earned during the marriage is split 5050 in case of a divorce. It was only a couple months before our wedding. It didn't get signed. My then fiance was very insulted by it, very hurt by it. It made him feel like a threat. It made him feel less than, which I understood. And a few weeks before we got married, he came to me and said, I'd really like to make one change, which I think would be really fair, which is that anything earned during the marriage won't be split unless we talk and decide that it should be put into joint names. And this made sense to me. I really respected him, I really trusted him. He was going to be my husband, the father of my children. And so I agreed to the change against legal advice. And I didn't tell my brother or my mother or my stepmother about it. So I think a good part of me knew that it was not good for me since I planned to stay home with kids and he planned to go into finance. So that was one. Another one was that during the course of our marriage, but starting pretty early in the marriage, I really gave him the responsibility for overseeing our financial life. I think looking back, I felt like he was much more able to do it. He understood investments and the stock market. But if I really think clearly about it, there's something about it that felt romantic to me. My father had died. It felt like the way my husband was going to take care of me and the kids. But I also thought, I think I was trying to equalize something because I was coming into the marriage with money. It felt like important to his self esteem that he'd be in charge of it. And then over the course of many years of marriage where three kids and a busy life, we really divided and conquered. And I really lost touch with the big picture. Where assets sat, whose name was on what. I paid our bills and I signed our tax returns. I didn't read the tax returns and people will read in the book how that ended up coming back to haunt me. But it's pretty clear that what happened was that I ended up putting my assets into joint name and buying our house and apartment and putting both our names on the deeds. And he accumulated wealth and kept it in his name. And I was not aware of. He didn't hide it, but I did not ask about what bonuses were accumulating and all of that. So I find that I am a cautionary tale on this. And that's a little bit hard to be a cautionary tale, but if it results in women, my contemporaries, older women, women who are not yet married, really pushing for visibility, pushing for true partnership, reading their tax returns, understanding what will happen to them if the relationship ends. Even if you're the most happily married person on earth, thinking about prenups, thinking about ways to protect yourself, even if you trust your partner so much. I think my book will have had a great purpose if that's the case.

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[Bell Burden]

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?

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[Bell Burden]

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[Bell Burden]

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[Danielle Robay]

Right now I'm super excited for my upcoming trip to Atlanta. I'm taking my mom to celebrate her birthday. She's never been and I'm going to take her to eat all the best food, see the best jazz music, and

[Reese Witherspoon]

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[Danielle Robay]

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[Reese Witherspoon]

I'm curious what your reflections or thoughts are on why you were willing to put yourself in peril. Mostly because you had a law degree. You're like beautifully as a corporate lawyer. Yeah. So you had the skill set. Which makes me feel like it was an emotional choice.

[Bell Burden]

It's a couple of things. I think I was brought up in a family where you are always generous, you always share. Marriage is a true partnership. You put both your names on everything.

[Reese Witherspoon]

That's a beautiful value.

[Bell Burden]

It is. And I try not to be ashamed of that. Right. I try to be proud of that. That's just the way we all are. My brother's like that in his marriage. My stepmother and my father were like that. I also think there's that element that I referred to earlier that I was worried about how he felt less than financially going into the marriage and so there was a desire to equalize. I truly and completely trusted him like 100%. And I think that's also a beautiful thing. I think we should trust our partners. But I think you can trust and also imagine the worst case scenario and be better at protecting oneself. I also think that my book is not in any way argument that one should not stay home with kids. I'm glad that I did that. I kept my law license and had meaningful work. But I would make the same decision to stay home with them. But I think it's very easy, especially in cases like mine where my husband's work was the priority always. Everything was moving towards his dreams and goals. Every sacrifice was made in pursuit of that. I think it's very easy to lose sight of your own, not just your passions and talents and your own career ambitions. But it's very easy to lose confidence in your abilities generally. And I think that is what happened to me on the financial thing too. I lost confidence that I could understand it, that I could have a meaningful voice about it. And that's just wrong because I am a former corporate lawyer. I'm highly educated. But even if you're not, these things are understandable. You just have to spend time working on it. And a true partner will want to Hear your opinion about it.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Did you? Or do you feel as if he manipulated you or had sort of a master plan at the beginning?

[Bell Burden]

I don't. I think a 20 year marriage, it's a long time to stay in something. You know, people love to call me an heiress. I'm not an heiress. I am not. You know, he could have aimed a lot higher. And 20 years is a long time. Seriously. So I don't think that. I think because of his childhood and childhood trauma, I think he was built to be self protective every day of his life around money. And I didn't really understand that. And I think that can coexist with love and happiness for a period of time. So I believe in both those things. And understanding him as a man who was once a little boy and traumatized by his father's breakdown, that helps me. That helps me to understand it.

[Reese Witherspoon]

You write that he says it feels like a switch has flipped when he wanted out of the marriage. I was reading the book feeling almost like it was a true crime story. Like, you know, women watch true crime. They say the number one reason is to, like, make sure they don't end up buried in a tar pit like by their high school boyfriend.

[Danielle Robay]

Yes.

[Reese Witherspoon]

And you mentioned it's like cautionary tale. Do you think if you had a book like this, something would have shifted for you?

[Bell Burden]

Definitely. That's a. No one's asked me that question. Yes, definitely. I think if I had read this book at any point during the marriage, I would be asking myself different questions and pushing for different answers. I think it would have hit me very hard even if it was someone from a very different life.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Yeah.

[Bell Burden]

I think there are things that it pushes you to ask about yourself that

[Reese Witherspoon]

gave me chills because that means that it was for sure worthwhile.

[Bell Burden]

I hope so, Yes. I hope so.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I haven't heard anybody ask you about the COVID of your book. And it's really become an aesthetic. Like people are pinteresting it and Instagramming it. It's almost like a symbol to read your memoir.

[Danielle Robay]

Now, can you describe the COVID for everyone?

[Bell Burden]

Absolutely. So the COVID has two osprey. And the framing device for the book are the two ospreys who live in a nest on my property in Martha's vill from April to September. And my editor and I always wanted the ospreys to be on the COVID in some way. The problem is, though, that ospreys are not the most beautiful birds up close. They're pretty rough looking, so you couldn't do anything realistic. So I love how they're going different directions, but touching. I love that it's kind of modern, and. It is modern. Yeah. It just. It felt exactly right. And I think a lot of authors feel that way when they see the right cover.

[Reese Witherspoon]

It also makes sense for the way that you wrote it because there's all these little vignettes about the ospreys that nested near your home.

[Bell Burden]

Yep.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Aside from having experienced those birds, did they symbolize anything for you?

[Bell Burden]

They really did. It was quite astonishing, actually, to witness. They arrived two weeks after my husband left, and the male and the female had chicks. Three chicks. I have three children. And then I watched over the course of the summer, the male going out to get fish to provide for the wife and the chicks, then seeing the chicks grow and fledge, which my children are getting to that age of doing that. It was painful to see this, you know, this beautiful cycle that my family no longer had. My husband had no interest in taking care of me through the pandemic or providing for me or the kids during that period. And that was painful. But it was also somehow very deeply comforting. I think nature's cycles and the predictability of it and the repetition of it year after year, knowing that they were going to. They left in September, and I knew that they would come back in April was really comforting. And I think nature does provide that. And I was lucky to be in a place where I could see it firsthand.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I want to ask you one unhinged question, and it's about Taylor Swift.

[Bell Burden]

Oh, I'm so glad people don't ask me about her enough, and I die hard.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Well, you wrote about how you listened to Allotta Taylor in the wake of your husband exiting the relationship. She's really the queen of putting heartbreak out into the world. Were there any songs or lyrics that hit you the hardest?

[Danielle Robay]

And why Taylor?

[Bell Burden]

So I've always liked her. I've always appreciated her music, and my daughters listened to her. But Folklore came out in July, July 24th in 2020. And I listened to it as I was doing these endless walks, and I felt like the whole album spoke to me. It felt like it was written for someone in my situation, which, of course, it wasn't. But I think that is her gift. I also think she's just such an incredible lyricist. I think she's a poet. She really knows how to capture emotion through words. And I think that was inspiring to me as a writer or as not yet a writer, but having that reawakened in me. I think she helped reawaken that in me. I would say the song that felt most apt was actually on Evermore, not on Folklore, which is Happiness, which I won't try and sing or quote right now, but the lyrics are very on point. I also went to the ERAS tour and just this sort of incredible joyfulness post divorce. And to feel that with her from afar was a really wonderful thing.

[Reese Witherspoon]

It is really special when an artist's. You know, they don't do the healing for you. You're the one that has to live through it. But they are sort of there in companionship while you're doing it. It's this bond that you never forget.

[Bell Burden]

Absolutely. I feel like she must know me, but she definitely does not. I feel very intimate with her.

[Reese Witherspoon]

It's not off the table. One day, though.

[Bell Burden]

One day. You never know. You never know.

[Reese Witherspoon]

There's this bookstore that I'm sure you've heard of. Maybe even did a book tour stop at Godmothers in Montecito.

[Bell Burden]

I did. It's wonderful.

[Reese Witherspoon]

You did?

[Bell Burden]

Yeah. Very early on in January, I went and it was. I love it there.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Me too. It's really. There's something really quaint and magical when you walk in. And the woman who started it, I was listening to her in an interview years ago, and she said. Because she used to be a book agent. And she said, share from the scar, not the wound.

[Bell Burden]

Yep. Yes, I've heard that. And it's really. It's true. I think at times I shared from the wound, but I think hopefully I shared from the scar more than the wound.

[Reese Witherspoon]

If you'll dig in with me on that. I'm so curious about just your thoughts

[Danielle Robay]

in general on writers doing that.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Because a lot of times, if you're sharing from the scar, you have more hindsight, you have reflections, you have insights to provide people, teachings, lessons.

[Danielle Robay]

There is something about sharing from the messy middle and the pain. I don't know.

[Bell Burden]

I think you have to find that right middle ground. Because I think you have to be able to access that real, raw emotion. And when there's too much time has passed and you've evolved too much, I think it's harder to access that. So I'm grateful for when I wrote it, which was pretty, you know, within a year or so after the height of pain. And that, I think, was helpful because I could feel it. I could feel it. Still.

[Danielle Robay]

Right now, I'm super excited for my upcoming trip to Atlanta. I'm taking my mom to celebrate her birthday. She's never been. And I'm going to take her to eat all the best food, see the best jazz music, and I'm going to have to sneak in a museum or two. Trips like that are truly unforgettable, and what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb Co host Network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning you extra cash. Find a co [e-mail] host nothing compares to the anticipation of something new.

[Reese Witherspoon]

A new start, a new year, a

[Danielle Robay]

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[Reese Witherspoon]

Two thirds of the way through the book, there's this moment that your friend comes to you and says, and I'm paraphrasing, that she hasn't seen you like this in years, that she recognizes parts of you and you're being open and vulnerable.

[Danielle Robay]

To me that said so much, just that one line.

[Reese Witherspoon]

What was it like for people to see you change in real time? Was it always welcome?

[Bell Burden]

I think that was quite a conversation for me and it was actually a friend from high school, so we've known each other since we were 15, since she was 14 and I was 15. So she knows me really well. I think outsiders or acquaintances didn't really see the change in real time. But I think my closest people, my family, my closest friends really did witness it in real time. And that is, I think, can be scary for people and they don't know where it's going to end up. And they, you know, it can be. It's a messy process, but I think they would probably all say that they saw me become more relaxed, more open, less kind of holding on tight and more like myself when I was in my 20s. And I believe more like my true self. And I think about that, I think about that as a wonderful silver lining of all of this or a wonderful reason for it to have happened. But I think about it in my marriage because I believed I was very happy. I still believe I was happy, but I think I was just carrying the emotional load a lot. So I think I was very concerned with trains running on time and all of that. And I also think that when everything falls apart, and for me, other than death, illness, this was the worst thing I would have imagined for myself. And I think when all those structures kind of fall away, you are better able to access that or you're just sort of more like, you know, nothing is perfect, clearly. So I can be a little more chill about things.

[Danielle Robay]

Wow.

[Reese Witherspoon]

What's it been like to live through what you would have considered your worst nightmare before?

[Bell Burden]

It makes me feel like I can handle most things. It is weird to have felt like it was the worst thing that could have happened to me and then now feel really grateful for it. It's a weird thing and I am glad for it because I wouldn't be here.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I really believe you when you say

[Bell Burden]

that too, especially about writing. I don't think I would have become a writer again if this hadn't happened.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Yeah, I mean, because before Strangers, your story of course started as a modern love article and now Netflix is adapting it into a film and Gwyneth Paltrow is going to be playing you, apparently.

[Bell Burden]

We'll see. We haven't signed anything, but hopefully that's going to happen.

[Danielle Robay]

I mean, that must feel so surreal.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Are there parts of the story that you're excited to see on screen? Are there parts that you feel like really need to stay the same?

[Bell Burden]

It's a really good question. I think it's both. There are ways that it could change that would be really difficult for me. Like I would not want them to make my ex husband more sinister or violent or any of the things that he is not. But there are ways that it could change that would be really helpful for me and the kids. Like maybe it's one child or two children instead of three. Maybe it's a different island. I don't think it will have my name or my grandparents names associated with it and those things will distance it from us in a way that I think will be helpful. So it'll be interesting to see. I love the writer who's doing it and she is interested in those changes and to talk to me about them and to make sure that we're comfortable. So we'll see how that plays out and what they want to change.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I'm curious about the name change aspect because you changed your husband's name in the book and with the Internet, I think so many people were looking up who your ex husband and you can

[Bell Burden]

find out very quickly. Yes.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Yeah, you can. So what was the purpose of changing his name in the book?

[Bell Burden]

The couple reasons. First, and primarily it does Even though you can find it out fairly quickly, it does create some distance. It creates some distance from the story for my kids. For him, if you're reading paragraph after paragraph using his real name, it is a different feeling than having a pseudonymous same for my children. And there are complicated reasons why I decided to keep my name and my family of origins name. But I did decide to do that. The other reason is, legally, if I were to end up in court, it is better to have different names than someone's original names. But it was primarily to create that distance.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I want to ask you a question that I think everybody has been asking me when I tell them to read the book. I think the part of your story that everybody closes the COVID on when they end and is so curious about is that your husband did not seem to want custody of your children. And I think readers hear your story, read your story, and think, okay, like, this was brutal and this could very possibly happen. We've heard stories where men are not faithful. We've heard stories where men leave the home. I think it is more rare that they don't want custody of the kids. How are you making sense of that Choice?

[Bell Burden]

It's absolutely 100% the hardest part of this. This period for me has been finite, and for them, it's their whole lives. And I really fought it for a while, really wanted him to have a bedroom for them at his apartment, really thought he would change his mind. But he felt certain that that part of his life was over. He felt certain that it was better to have to go back and forth. I think it is tragic for him because these are these teenage years or, you know, you know them by living with them. But it's a hard one for me to explain or to excuse. My kids are pretty amazing. They love their dad. They talk to their dad. They're in touch with their dad. They don't see him all that often, but they understand that he is limited in a lot of ways, and they reach out to him in ways that are comfortable for him. And I've tried to acknowledge their reality and say, this is not the norm, that you don't have a home there. But he's not able to do it. And it's not something that I understand, but that's about him and not about you. And so I've tried to do that rather than saying this is totally normal and, you know, to make them feel, like, confused. I don't want them to feel confused. I want to name it for them without being mean about their dad.

[Reese Witherspoon]

What Are you hoping that women take from your experience for readers who see themselves in your story? What are you hoping that it helps them approach differently in their lives?

[Bell Burden]

Well, I think we talked about the financial piece and I hope that that changes behaviors around that. I hope for people going through anything like this that they feel seen and understood the way that a lot of readers have made me feel and feel less alone in it. I think it's such an alienating. You feel so much shame around it that I hope that it helps with that. I also hope that for people who haven't been through it, they maybe can understand a little bit more what their friends have been through or their parents have been through or their children have experienced. I really hope that it helps people feel that even in the lowest moments, in total despair. For me on the bathroom floor, I think a lot of people end up there. That you can get to the other side and there can be a life that is better that you didn't even think you could ever want. That you would never have wanted to give up your previous life, but that there is the possibility of reinvention.

[Danielle Robay]

I felt all of those.

[Reese Witherspoon]

There was also an agency piece I took away.

[Bell Burden]

Yes, absolutely. That there is such beauty and agency. There really is. And it was hard fought, but I would never give it up now.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I like that word hard fought. It feels visual to me. Like you pulled yourself up from the bathroom floor. You fought for your agency.

[Bell Burden]

You did. Yes, I did. I think I really did. With a lot of help.

[Danielle Robay]

Yeah.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Okay, so you've written your first book. You clearly know how to pack an emotional punch in your writing belt. What is next for you on the horizon, writing wise? Will you write about the world that you know? Do you think there's something completely different like science fiction in your brain waiting to be released?

[Bell Burden]

I would like to try to write fiction, which is what I wrote as a teenager and took a 30 year break from. And so I would like to try it. I do not know if I'm any good at it. It's a lot harder than memoir because you have to make it all up. And I had a start at it before the book came out and then it's just been too hard to switch back and forth between the two. And I have my legal cases too, so I can't wait to hole up again and start writing. And I am not a science fiction person. I am a relationships and family relationships person. So that's what I'll probably write about.

[Reese Witherspoon]

What is something that you are so obsessed with that you could write a book about. But you probably won't.

[Bell Burden]

I really love to make jam and I have made every fruit you can imagine. And I'm really, like, obsessed with, like, how much sugar you need to put in to make it bind. But not too much sugar. I'm entering my jam making season now, so I don't know that I will write a book about it, but I have a lot of thoughts about it.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I don't. I don't like turning every hobby into a business, but I do think everybody listening is going to think, can we

[Bell Burden]

buy some bellbird and jam? I know I could compete with the Duchess of Sussex with her jam. You know, that's also yes.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Do you have a favorite fruit? Is there one that turned out the

[Bell Burden]

best strawberry by far. But it's a short season, so it's coming up. I'll send you some. Danielle.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Belle, don't tease me.

[Danielle Robay]

I love you.

[Bell Burden]

I know.

[Danielle Robay]

I will.

[Bell Burden]

I absolutely will. I will get it to you. I'm gonna get your address and I'm gonna get it to you. Yes. The farmer's market at Union Square has really good strawberries. So I will as soon as they're in season. You can picture me making jam. Yep.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Okay. I wanna play a little game with you before you leave us.

[Bell Burden]

Sure.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I also don't want you to leave us. But here's how it works. We're gonna put 60 seconds on the clock and see just how many rapid fire literary questions that you can get through.

[Bell Burden]

Okay.

[Danielle Robay]

Okay.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Three, two, one. What is a book that you read for comfort?

[Bell Burden]

For comfort, I read cookbooks. And I would say Ina Garten's cookbooks.

[Reese Witherspoon]

The best. The best. Broiled chicken. Okay. A book that you read for escapism.

[Bell Burden]

I would say anything by Emily Giffen or Ellen Hildebrandt.

[Reese Witherspoon]

A book that you read for strength.

[Bell Burden]

The Daily Stoic.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Beautiful. I think a lot of people are going to say strangers. Now, what is your favorite book to gift?

[Bell Burden]

Graydon Carter's memoir.

[Reese Witherspoon]

A book that you wish you could read again for the first time.

[Bell Burden]

Harriet the Spy, which was the first book that I read cover to cover. Totally absorbed. And it gave me my love of reading at the age of eight.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I love that. What a great answer. A book that you wish you had written.

[Bell Burden]

Heart the Lover by Lily King.

[Reese Witherspoon]

A favorite book to recommend.

[Bell Burden]

I would say right now, Maria Semple's new book. New novel is so much fun and so well written.

[Reese Witherspoon]

You have 10 minutes in a bookstore. Where are you going?

[Bell Burden]

First new fiction.

[Reese Witherspoon]

A book that shaped the way you see the world.

[Bell Burden]

God, I'm gonna go back to high school and say J.D. salinger's nine stories.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Okay, this is a big if because if it weren't you who narrated your memoir audiobook, who would you want to narrate it?

[Bell Burden]

I would say my stepmother Susan, because she lived all of it with me and would have the same emotional experience of reading it.

[Reese Witherspoon]

I think that's such a special relationship that you have.

[Bell Burden]

It is. It really is. She's amazing.

[Reese Witherspoon]

Bel, I want to thank you for your time, but also so much for your courage because the book is unbelievable.

[Bell Burden]

Thank you so much.

[Danielle Robay]

That's it for this episode of Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. Our phone line is now open, so if you want to go 90s on us, give us a call at 1-501-291-3379. That's 1-501-291-33790. Share your literary hot takes, your book recommendations, questions about the monthly pick, or let us know what you think about the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might just hear yourself in our next episode. So don't overthink it. Give us a ring and if you want more, come hang with us. Reese's Book Club is on Instagram serving up books, good vibes and all the behind the scenes stuff you love. And I'm R O B A Y so come say hi and please seriously DM me because I actually read them and I love hearing what you think about the episodes. And don't forget to follow Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen. We'll see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me, Danielle Robay production by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Maddie Foley, Brittany Martinez and Sarah Schlied. Our editor is Carmen Borca Carrillo. Our production assistant is Avery Loftus. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter are executive producers for Acast Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are executive producers for hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa, Kristen Perla, Ashley Rapaport and Sarah Kernerman are associate producers for Reese's Book Club and Ali Perry is executive producer for Iheart Podcasts. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton. We spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you? In the fabric that's holding you close. Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more at thefabricofourlives.com the autograph journey Credit Card from Wells Fargo is built for travel. You can earn rewards wherever you book, your favorite hotel site your go to airline and more. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. Whether it's a big vacation or a quick getaway from booking your stay to that first meal when you arrive, you're turning your trips into rewards with the Autograph Journey Card from Wells Fargo. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply. Apple Books is the best way to read or listen to the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone and a heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club so you can discover every exciting pick, plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set and track your reading goals and get great recommendations for your next read or listen again. No subscription required. Visit Apple Co Reese. That's R E E S e Apple Books to find out more, I'm partnering with Simple Mills and I have now found a new go to reading snack. Simple Mills Almond Flour Crackers. Think of this as a quick book style review because these crackers deserve it. The premise A snack that feels light, not heavy. Made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Nutrient dense ingredients your body can use. Not empty carbs and the taste crunchy classic flavors that leave you feeling energized. For a good plot twist, try Popums Cheesy, airy, poppable Crackers packed with veggies. Final Verdict these are a shelf staple. Find simple meals at your grocery store. This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed.