Jessica Knoll's Masterclass on Thrillers, Unreliable Narrators & Our Obsession with Dark Stories

Summary

Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club – Episode Summary

Jessica Knoll's Masterclass on Thrillers, Unreliable Narrators & Our Obsession with Dark Stories

Host: Danielle Robay
Guest: Jessica Knoll
Release Date: June 16, 2026

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Main Theme

This episode explores the art and appeal of thrillers—specifically those featuring unreliable narrators, female rage, and the cultural obsession with dark stories—through the lens of Jessica Knoll’s career, process, and latest novel, Helpless. Hosted by Danielle Robay, the conversation examines why dark fiction is compelling, the nuances of women’s anger in storytelling, and how Knoll’s time in women’s magazines informs her fascination with authenticity, performance, and narrative truth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Allure of Dark Fiction and Thrillers

• Plane Reads and Dark Stories: Knoll shares that her books are ideal for summer reading and long plane rides, with Helpless purposely crafted as a page-turner.
  • “If I can make a long plane ride fly by for anyone, that, to me, is the best thing.” (Jessica Knoll, 04:53)
• Fascination With Unlikelihood: Helpless is deemed less disturbing than her previous Bright Young Women because the events feel less likely to actually happen to the reader, making it more a fun, safe suspense.

2. Performance, Authenticity, and Magazine Roots

• Knoll’s early work at women’s magazines like Cosmo shaped her interest in the gap between public performance and private self, which she embeds into her fiction:
  • “In so much of your work it’s like about the distance between who we are and who we are pretending to be… In Jessica Knoll’s world it seems like inauthentic is the scariest thing a person can be.” (Danielle Robay, 06:54)
  • “It’s maybe not scary, but boring. It’s just not interesting. Let me into the dark corners of your mind, I want to know.” (Jessica Knoll, 07:30)

3. The Unreliable Narrator – Types & Techniques

• Unreliable Narrator Breakdown: The hosts discuss the different types—liar, clown, deranged, naive, madman, biased, forgetful—and what makes readers invest in them.
• Writing the Unreliable:
  • Knoll likes the reader to sometimes be a little ahead of the character, allowing tension and reveals.
  • “I try not to have my characters be so aware, because then there’s nothing left for them to learn about themselves.” (Jessica Knoll, 08:43)
• Books That Inspire:
  • Knoll cites We Need to Talk About Kevin by Lionel Shriver as a masterclass in unreliable narration.
    • “The writing is phenomenal. I actually cannot believe a human being is capable of writing at this level… I don’t think I’m getting the true, the true story of this. It’s a masterclass in unreliable narration.” (Jessica Knoll, 11:08)
  • Major inspiration and “seething jealousy” for Gillian Flynn’s work, especially Sharp Objects:
    • “Gillian Flynn… I’ve been number one fangirl. I discovered her with Dark Places… and I looked her up, and at that point, she was two years out from publishing Gone Girl.” (Jessica Knoll, 12:54)

4. Thrillers as Windows Into Human Vulnerability

• Human Nature Revealed:
  • “What I like to think is that [a thriller] reveals just how vulnerable we all are.” (Jessica Knoll, 15:20)
  • There’s a readerly thrill in “brush[ing] with a world where something goes nightmarishly wrong”—that thrillers dramatize the disruption and aftermath of violence.
• Fiction as Safe Space for Truth:
  • Sharing her personal trauma via fiction in Luckiest Girl Alive allowed Knoll emotional distance:
    • “It allowed me to tell my story, with the door closed and no one demanding answers or explanations… there was still a measure of protection in writing the story as fiction.” (Jessica Knoll, 16:40)
  • The reaction of women readers inspired her to share her own truth.

5. Adaptation: From Page to Screen

• Why She Produces Her Own Adaptations:
  • Inspired by Gillian Flynn’s adaptation of her own work, Knoll fought for involvement in adaptations.
  • “It was seeing that it’s possible, that an author can do this.” (Jessica Knoll, 28:44)
• Screenwriting Lessons:
  • Film/TV has taught her efficiency—everything in the story must serve purpose, making her latest novel, Helpless, both “tightest and shortest.”
  • “Screenwriting taught me every moment, every character needs to be utilized, because you just don’t have that much real estate.” (Jessica Knoll, 29:43)

6. Grabbing Readers and Killer First Lines

• Opening Hooks:
  • A powerful first line should feel effortless, not gimmicky:
    • “If I’m reading a killer first line, it’s killer because it feels effortless… a really dynamic first line is hard to beat.” (Jessica Knoll, 31:19)
  • Her favorite example: Donna Tartt’s The Secret History.

7. Female Rage: Satisfying vs. Clichéd

• On the “Female Rage” Genre:
  • Knoll’s books allow women to externalize pain and rage, rather than internalizing it or performing passive pain.
  • “A lot of how I write my rage is interior, happening while performing complicity or complacency… slapping a smile on, but inside you’re boiling.” (Jessica Knoll, 38:58)
  • The difference in how anger in men (a “quest”) vs. women (“rage”) is received:
    • “Anytime people act outside their assigned roles, it makes us twitchy… That’s not how you’re supposed to be acting.” (Jessica Knoll, 40:37)

8. The Psychology and Appeal of Taboo Fantasies

• Helpless explores dangers and fantasies, including the sexualization of risk and submission in “romantasy” and dark romance genres.
  • “You’re the one calling the shots in these fantasies because it’s coming from your own head… There’s a level of power we have in submitting to these fantasies.” (Jessica Knoll, 44:10, 44:40)

9. Writing Advice

• Best Writing Advice Received:
  • “You can’t edit a blank page… there’s no bolt of inspiration that’s going to strike you in a Eureka moment. You’ve got to just put pen to paper and write something, even if it’s bad, and then you can go back and make it good.” (Jessica Knoll, 48:33)
• Advice to Aspiring Writers:
  • Start with your “shitty first draft”—incubate the idea, then go through several drafts until it firms up.

10. The Role of Collaborators

• Knoll doesn’t share story ideas with her husband (different taste); her agent is her first trusted reader and “collaborator.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Topic | |----------|-----------| | 03:12 | Introduction to Jessica Knoll; female rage as a theme | | 04:53 | The ideal setting for reading Helpless and dark, “fun” thrillers | | 06:54 | The connection between authenticity, performance, and magazine background | | 08:43 | Are we all unreliable narrators? Literary device and Knoll’s take | | 11:08 | Deep dive into We Need To Talk About Kevin; unreliable narration | | 12:54 | “Seething with jealousy” over Gillian Flynn; on favorite authors | | 15:20 | What thrillers reveal about human nature: "how vulnerable we all are" | | 16:40 | Writing trauma through fiction; fiction as protective layer | | 28:44 | Adapting her novels for screen; seeing it as possible via Gillian Flynn | | 29:43 | Lessons from screenwriting: efficiency, tighter plots | | 31:19 | The art of the killer first line | | 37:32 | Female rage in fiction, revenge, and what makes it satisfying | | 38:58 | The interiority of rage, the gendered difference in depictions | | 40:37 | Societal discomfort with women’s anger; deviation from gender roles| | 44:09 | Why taboo fantasies are seductive in fiction (loss-of-control, power) | | 48:33 | Best writing advice: “You can’t edit a blank page” |

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Notable Quotes by Segment

On Female Rage

“We’re comfortable with seeing men express anger and it feels like an inherently red blooded American male emotion. And I just think anytime people act outside of their, like, assigned roles, it makes us twitchy.”
— Jessica Knoll (03:16, also reiterated at 40:37)

On Unreliable Narrators

“Yes, we definitely are [all unreliable], because we’re all operating from an n of one… our perception is naturally not necessarily going to be based in reality… I try not to have my characters be so aware, because then there’s nothing left for them to learn.”
— Jessica Knoll (08:43)

On Writing as Healing

“It allowed me to just tell my story, like, with the door closed and, like, no one demanding, like, answers or an explanation… if people called it what it was, then finally, I could feel validated.”
— Jessica Knoll (16:40)

On Adapting Her Work

“Screenwriting taught me is every moment, every character, like, needs to be utilized because you just don’t have that much real estate. So, like, you really have to make everything count.”
— Jessica Knoll (29:43)

On Satisfying Female Revenge

“A lot of how I write my rage is like it’s interior and it’s happening while performing, like, complicity or complacency… we’ve all had that feeling, especially as a woman, you know, where you’re just, like, slapping a smile on, but inside you’re boiling.”
— Jessica Knoll (38:58)

On Writing Advice

“You can’t edit a blank page… You’ve got to just put pen to paper and write something, even if it’s bad, and then you can go back and make it good.”
— Jessica Knoll (48:33)

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Memorable Moments

• Knoll’s out-of-body experience drinking martinis with Mila Kunis in New York—proof to herself she’d “made it.” (26:23)
• A rapid-fire analysis of classic literary rage: Carrie (“revenge rage”), Gone Girl (“crafty/elite rage”), The Secret History (“suppressed rage”), The Color Purple (“empowering rage”). (46:21–48:17)
• Her obsession she’d never write a book about? The TV show Summer House scandals. (45:13)

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Jessica Knoll’s TBR Recommends:

• Gillian Flynn: Sharp Objects (her favorite), Dark Places, Gone Girl
• Lionel Shriver: We Need to Talk About Kevin
• T Kira Madden: Would Be
• Donna Tartt: The Secret History

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Episode Takeaways

• Knoll’s thrillers dissect the performance of femininity, the complexity of anger, and the universality of narrative unreliability.
• Her writing (and process) is influenced by magazine roots, screenwriting, and an admiration for dark literary tradition.
• Female rage in fiction is both cathartic and deeply tied to cultural expectations and rebellion against gender roles.
• Vivid first lines, tight plotting, and authenticity underpin her writing philosophy.
• Personal trauma can be reclaimed, transformed, and validated through story.
• Fantasy’s allure in dark fiction lies in the controlled surrender of control, especially for women.

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This episode is a must-listen for fans of powerhouse thrillers, those intrigued by the complex realities women navigate—and anyone interested in the craft, impact, and legacy of contemporary dark fiction.

Transcript

[Danielle Robay]

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[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

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[Jessica Knoll]

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[Danielle Robay]

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[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Hi, I'm Danielle Robay and welcome to

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club.

[Danielle Robay]

Today we're hearing from an author who knows all about female rage.

[Jessica Knoll]

We're comfortable with seeing men express anger and it feels like an inherently red blooded American male emotion. And I just think anytime people act outside of their, like, assigned roles, it makes us twitchy.

[Danielle Robay]

Every time I read a Jessica Knoll book, I'm going, just one more chapter, please. And her newest novel, Helpless, is no exception. It is smart and twisty and just

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

like the rest of her books, impossible to put down. Today, Jessica and I dive into what

[Danielle Robay]

makes an unreliable narrator so irresistible, so interesting, and why female Rage remains one of the most misunderstood forces in fiction, and how her years working in women's magazines actually shaped her fascination with performance and authenticity. So if your TBRs are on the dark side, or if you like to

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

pair a little revenge with your poolside

[Danielle Robay]

margarita, you're in the right place. Let's turn the page with Jessica Knoll. Jessica, welcome to the club.

[Jessica Knoll]

Thank you.

I'm so excited to be here.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I'm sort of fangirling right now. I loved Luckiest Girl Alive so much, and you've been on my favorite authors list ever since. So I'm really excited that you're here.

[Jessica Knoll]

Thank you for saying that. Obviously, that one holds a special place in my.

[Danielle Robay]

Yeah, of course. All of your books are so addictive.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I really feel like you've cracked the code on a summer thriller. I don't know how you make me want to read a book about kidnapping and murder on a beach, but somehow you do. In an ideal world, where are people reading Helpless?

[Jessica Knoll]

I mean, in an ideal world, it's summer, you're traveling. Like, if I can make a long plane ride, fly by for anyone, that to me is the best thing. When you pick a book and you're like, this could go either way and you get on like a cross country flight and you are just like turning the pages. That is the best feeling in the world. So I hope I can provide that for people.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

So the last thriller I read on a plane was First Lie Wins. Oh yes. Which was a Reese's Book Club pick.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, it was really smart.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

It was a smart book. But other than that I'm usually a rom com girl because I like happy things on an airplane. My biggest fear is that I turn on a movie and it's about a plane going down. Yeah, that's happened. So is this book, is it so scary that I can't read it on a flight?

[Jessica Knoll]

Oh God no. I actually think my last book, Bright Young Women is much scarier than this one in the sense that that really puts you into something that did. It's fictionalized but did happen in real life. This one just seems like so unlikely to happen to you that I. I don't think it would unnerve you. But I have a higher threshold than most.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I have preference. That's true. What do you like to read on a beach?

[Jessica Knoll]

Really dark things that don't feel dark to me. The last book that I tore through on a plane was. Would be by T. Kara Madden. And that for some may be disturbing, but for me that it kept turning like I couldn't stop turning the pages because the characterization of these people who either had done a horrible thing, had had something horrible happened to them or were protecting the person who did the horrible, horrible thing was so real and so fascinating. And that's what I love about a thriller is like getting into the mind of people who do inexcusable things and the way that behavior and violence like is allowed and normalized. I just find it endlessly fascinating.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Well, hearing you talk about what you feel is dark, like where the line is for you. I think a lot of people would be surprised to know that you actually started your career for the most part in magazines, in women's magazines. Cosmo was one of them. It's glossy performance is rewarded. And in so much of your work it's like about the distance between who we are and who we are pretending to be. I couldn't help but connect that in my mind with your background. And I think in most thrillers the scary part is murder or distrust. But in Jessica Knowles world it seems like inauthentic is the scariest thing a person can be.

[Jessica Knoll]

It maybe not scary, but boring. It's really boring to me. Like it's just not interesting. Like let me in, like let me into the dark corners of Your mind? I want to know.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

You must have been so interesting on a date.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

My.

[Jessica Knoll]

It's funny because my husband is like you. Like, he loves a romcom. He loves anything that's, like, light and funny and comedy. And I am just like. I mean, I don't dislike that, but I'm just like. I don't know that, like, my murder programs and shows are, like, so sacred to me, and it's become, like, a solo ritual because he's like. Like, I'm just not interested in consuming that kind of stuff.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

So you didn't want a partner that was gonna go down the deep, dark hole with you?

[Jessica Knoll]

I mean, I think, as most of us find, like, we kind of can't help who we fall for. And I'm sure that there is some psychological reason that I was drawn to someone who finds what I find alluring. Kind of repellent, for lack of a better term.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I love how often you play with the trope of an unreliable narrator. I've been thinking about that a lot lately, because what is an unreliable narrator? Are we all unreliable narrators?

[Jessica Knoll]

Yes, we definitely are, because we're all operating from, like, an n of 1. Like, this is our own personal clinical trial. Like, no one else has had the experiences that we've had, the challenges that we've had. We haven't been raised by the same families and dealt with all those dynamics that I believe inform us way more than nature even. And so our. Our perception is naturally going to not necessarily be based in reality, unless you're, like, a very, very aware character, which I try not to have my characters be so aware, because then there's nothing left for them to, like, learn about themselves. Or, like, there's no moment for, like, that kind of big, you know, revelation to themselves. Like, oh, I've been. I've been lying to myself. You know, I. I can't live this way or whatever it might be.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I was looking up the different types of unreliable narrators because it's, like, a literary device. There's the liar, which would be, like, Gone Girl.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

The clown, which would be Ferris Bueller in Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

[Jessica Knoll]

Oh, interesting.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

The deranged or delusional Catcher in the Rye. The Naive, which is Forrest Gump. The Madman, which is, like American Psycho. The Biased, which is Great Gatsby. And the Forgetful, which would be Momento.

[Danielle Robay]

Okay, how do you set up the

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

unreliable narrator as a literary device for audiences so that they believe this person just enough to want to continue to read, but you Know that there's some stuff going on.

[Jessica Knoll]

I like to let the audience at certain. Or the reader at certain points to be a little bit ahead of the character at certain points. Like, I try, you know, when I go back and I'm in drafting and polishing mode and, like, I have more control over the story and the characters. I. I like that experience, myself as a reader. I'm currently reading another very cheery novel called we need to Talk About Kevin by Lionel Shriver. It's obviously came out over 25 years ago, but I'm finally reading it and I'm just now reaching a point. I mean, it's. The writing is phenomenal. I actually cannot believe a human being is capable of writing at this level. The character is so deeply drawn. I mean, I'm just, like, seething with jealousy that, like, I. I will never be able to create a character like this, living and breathing, as.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Can you break this down for me? What do you mean?

[Jessica Knoll]

It's just everything on its face. She turns it and then turns it back and turns it back again until you get to this level of understanding. Because the novel is written as letters to her estranged husband, who, at this point where I'm at, he has had a breakdown and it's in a psychiatric ward after their son Kevin commits mass murder. And so she's writing to him to say, like, we need to basically acknowledge, like, the truth of who our son was and, like, what our role was. I'm now reaching a point, and maybe it's because I'm a mom now, too, where I'm like, oh, I'm so on her side with everything. And I'm so angry at the husband on her behalf. Like, she's just gaslit, like, left and right, and he just refuses to see reality. But I'm at midway point, and I'm like, oh, I. I don't think I'm getting the true. The true story of this. It's a masterclass in unreliable narration.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

You're making me really want to read this book.

[Jessica Knoll]

I mean, but it's very disturbing, I will tell you that. But the more disturbing, the better for me.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

It's so funny because if anybody looked at you, they would never know.

[Jessica Knoll]

I know this is what everyone says. I'm just like. I don't know. Like, you see those tiktoks? It's like that. Like, do, do, do, do. Like, this is what the inside of my dog's brain like, sounds like. I'm like. Mine is like, e, E, E. Like all these.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

You should do an Instagram post where it's like, the inside of your brain. Wait, who are the other authors? I loved hearing that you're so inspired by this author. Who are the other authors that just make you seethe with jealousy?

[Jessica Knoll]

Oh, Gillian Flowers Flynn. Like, I don't even have to think about it. Like, I've been number one fangirl. I discovered Gillian Flynn with her second book, Dark Places, because at the time, I was an editorial assistant at Cosmo. We still did summer fiction roundups. And so it was my job to, like, read all these advanced copies of novels that came in. And I remember Dark Places landed on my desk on a Friday afternoon, and I was like, oh, this sounds interesting. This might be good for, like, a summer reads roundup. I binged it in one weekend, and I was like, who the hell is this Gillian Flynn? Like, I need more. And I looked her up, and at that point, she hadn't. She was, like, two years out from publishing Gone Girl.

[Co-host or secondary speaker]

Wow.

[Jessica Knoll]

But she had Sharp Objects, which was her first book and is actually my favorite of her three novels. It's so good. And I reread it all the time. And then she wrote Gone Girl, and I was a little, like, I had that feeling of, like, yeah, everybody catch up. Like, I already knew she was amazing. Will she ever write anything again? Like, please do. Like, I'm.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

It just must be a lot of pressure after Gone Girl.

[Jessica Knoll]

It has to be. And also, it's like, she doesn't have to, you know, she can do whatever the hell she wants. I just hope eventually one of the things she wants to do is write something else.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Every one of your narrators is in some way managing how she's seen. So Tiffany is curating herself in Luckiest Girl Alive, the reality star is in the favorite sister, and now Faye in Helpless, who literally produces narratives for a living. Do you think that your female characters are actually unreliable? Are they just honest about the stuff that most of us try to hide?

[Jessica Knoll]

I think that's a great question and, like, a fair point that I think Faye is aware enough of the performance that's required of her. Like, not just as a woman, but as a woman in Hollywood, which is, like, a specific type of hell, I think, in terms of how you are being watched and surveilled constantly. So I think my experience of seeing my first novel and being a part of my first novel, being adapted into a film and living in LA and being on set for four months, I had a new appreciation for the industry and, like, just a new insider knowledge about it that Felt like I needed a place to put that and kind of Faye offered me that opportunity.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

You're clearly such a fan and truly an artist writing thrillers yourself. What do you think a thriller can reveal about human nature that other genres just can't?

[Jessica Knoll]

What I like to think is that it reveals just how vulnerable we all are.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Ooh, interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah. And I think that there is, at least for me as a thriller fan, there is something enticing about, like, this, like, brush with a world where, like, something goes nightmarishly wrong. And how. How would I deal with that? How do people deal with their lives being, you know, going into upheaval? And it's such a range of responses. So I love that fly on the feeling wall of, like, how violence can, like, change your life, change the trajectory of your life, make you rethink your past, rethink all the choices you've made and how it ultimately changes you. So that's why I'm reading and writing thrillers too.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Yeah. You kind of caught me when you said how violence can change your life, because I know you waited for a while until after you published Luckiest Girl Alive to share about your own experience. You first said it was based on other women's stories. Looking back, I'm curious. What did the fiction allow you to say that you don't think you were ready to share personally?

[Jessica Knoll]

It allowed me to just tell my story, like, with the door closed and, like, no one demanding, like, answers or an explanation. There was no one there to say, well, then why did you do this after? Or, like, how come you continued to hang out with these people or whatever it was that somehow made my story and what had happened to me unbelievable.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Made you an unreliable narrator.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, made me an unreliable narrator. And then it does make you question yourself. But, like, at my core, I always knew. I was like, I. I don't question what happened. Like, I know what happened was wrong, was a violation, was a crime. I. I just have to be patient and I have to bide my time. And one day there will come a moment where it will be right for me to tell this story. And that was in writing Luckiest Girl Alive, like, it all just gelled and came together at that moment in time. And so I was just able to tell the story, like, uninterrupted, in a way. And then there was still a measure of protection in writing the story as fiction, because if for some reason, readers received that story and didn't call it, what had happened to the character what it was, I would be protected from having to go through a second time of people minimizing what had happened to me. But if people called it what it was, then finally I felt I could feel validated. So I wanted to wait. I wanted to see what the reactions were. I wanted to hear how women responded. And that was what gave me courage to come out and tell my own story.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Was it the compounding number of women that shared their stories with you, or was it one woman's reflection that. That encouraged you?

[Jessica Knoll]

I think the compounding effect and something that came up frequently was there were a number of women who were, like, edgy in how they asked me about that part of the story and, like, a nervousness about it.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Interviewers or. What do you mean?

[Ad Voice]

No.

[Jessica Knoll]

Readers at events who would, like, come up to me at the signing and maybe, as they would kind of shyly say, you know, that, you know, the scene was written so realistically, like, you know, just wondering, like, how you were able to do that. And there was always, like, a moment where we would kind of, like, look at each other and, like, kind of both understand something interesting. Yeah. And so maybe it was that feeling of, like, why can't we just say what we're trying to say here? That. That made me feel bold enough to just say it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right now.

[Danielle Robay]

I'm super excited for my upcoming trip to Atlanta. I'm taking my mom to celebrate her birthday. She's never been. And I'm gonna take her to eat all the best food, see the best jazz music, and I'm gonna have to sneak in a museum or two. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now, if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb Co host Network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything, like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning you extra cash. Find a co [e-mail] host Today's episode

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

is brought to you by Cotton. We spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and with characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands, but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for lazy weekend mornings with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like the books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into our everyday moments. Moments like following four adult daughters as they navigate love, loss and the legacy in the Most Fun We Ever had by Claire Lombardo, all while curled up in soft cotton joggers. Or sinking into the island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak. A story that spans generations, Forbidden love and a fig tree that remembers everything. Wrapped in a hand stitched quilt, each

[Danielle Robay]

thread holding its own kind of memory.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton. Not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn [e-mail] when you're planning a trip,

[Danielle Robay]

it helps to have a credit card that rewards you no matter where you like to book. That's the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. What makes a difference is how flexible it is. You can earn rewards where you like to book travel. If you like going straight to the airline or hunting down a deal on a hotel site, this card is designed to keep rewarding you. Here's how the points stack up. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. So picture booking that hotel in the neighborhood you've always wanted to stay in, that's earning points. Grabbing flights for a last minute getaway? That's earning sitting down for that first dinner when you land. Still earning. Even the everyday stuff between trips can help toward your next journey. The Autograph Journey card from Wells Fargo helps turn the way you already travel, eat and explore into rewards. Learn more@wells fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply. Nothing compares to the anticipation of something new. A new start, a new year, a new home, or a new car. When it's time to get a new car, where do you start? Car shopping can honestly be a little overwhelming, but it should be fun. Buying your next car should be exciting. And it can be if you remember one thing. Cars.com cars.com has the tools and expert advice to help you figure out what vehicle is right for you. Their advanced search filters allow you to explore 2 million new and used cars so that you can find the perfect car. The site is so easy to use. Looking for an electric vehicle with a third row and leather seats for easy cleanup? Cars.com has you covered a variety of tools and badges are used to help shoppers understand the price of a vehicle and find the best deal. And every review is written by a real person reflecting a real life experience, so don't take any chances. Do car shopping the easy way. Start your search with cars.com where to next? Allergy season does not slow down when you are on the move. That's why Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues are ready whenever sneezes strike. Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues are allergist approved and silky soft for up to 100% irritation free skin. And now with the new Kleenex Snap and Go, you can get that same gentle care made for life on the go. Get the Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues you love in a new compact durable package. New Kleenex Snap and Go snaps shut For a clean tissue anytime, anywhere. For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex Snap and Go.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I think people tend to associate your books with true crime, but Annie's story was so close to your own experience. How did it feel for you to toe the line between autobiography and, I guess, true crime? Yeah, I think a lot of people talk about true crime or even thrillers as, like, a source of entertainment.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

And so that's, I guess, the. The part that I'm questioning.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah. So with Luckiest Girl Alive, like, there, and especially at the time I was writing it, which I guess I would have started that book in, like, 2012 for it to have been published in 2015. We were not having, like, thoughtful conversations about violence and true crime and how we packaged it and sold it. So it was like, not within my consciousness to, like, understand.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll]

Like, if I was doing harm or like, to even just think deeper about how I was kind of, like, approaching this story. I always looked at it as, like a ripped from the headlines thing. And I think I'd been conditioned to kind of pick at things like that or pull things out like that for from my magazine background.

[Danielle Robay]

Interesting.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah.

Because it was like, it was always about, like, the COVID line. Like, we had, like, cover lines were everything at Cosmo. But I still remember, like, one of the COVID lines that they loved the most was it was called the most dangerous time in a relationship for a woman.

Ooh.

And so it's like, what is it? What is that time? I need to know? Like, it was things like that that would just, like, beg a question. And so I always just looked at news at, like, the news, like, with an ear to the ground, like, what is topical, what is timely? How can I put my own spin on it? Like, that was my Introduction as like a professional writer, like, being paid to write, being paid to pitch ideas. That was my boot camp. So I think I approached novel writing the same way.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

You've talked about how seeing that scene depicted on screen actually validated your experience, which I wasn't expecting to read. Um, what was it like to watch something so personal move from page to screen?

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, I would say actually the. Where it really became an out of body experience was when we got to New York, because we shot most of it in Toronto and then we did like the last two weeks in New York. The last night of filming was an outdoor shoot on Franklin street in Tribeca, around the corner from Bubby's. And that was where I had my first date with my husband. It was where, like, my. My 20s were spent in New York was like that area of the city. And that was the tr. And then the fact that, like, it was a night shoot. We ended that we all went and had martinis at Walker's, which was like, I used to come here for, like, brunch hungover when I was 24 years old. That was a true out of body experience. To be sitting across from Mila Kunis having a dirty martini at a place that, like, I could barely afford brunch at when I was 24 years old. And when I was like a lost little lamb in the city and had no idea how I was going to make it, how I was going to pay my rent, like, how. How I was gonna live, what I was gonna do with my life. So, like, yeah, that was the most moving moment of anything where I was like, wow, like I. I did something with my life. And like, here, the proof of it is, like, right here. So that's still, like the warmest memory from the whole time on set. And that's saying a lot because it was an exceptional experience being on set. And everyone said, like, hey, you really lucked out. Like, a lot of the actors were like, it's not usually like this, you know, they were like, this was like a special one.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

So why do you think? What was the magic of it?

[Jessica Knoll]

I think our director, Mike Barker, he was like the glue. And everyone just loved him and trusted him and he had. He has such, like, a lust for life. And it was Covid too. So, like, we were really. We could really only hang out with each other because we had to be Covid tested every single day. And we didn't want to delay production, so. So I think it kept the group, like, really insular, which sometimes that can be a recipe for Disaster. But for whatever reason, it. I don't know, it was the secret ingredient this time.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I think it's so cool that you adapt and produce your own work. That's so rare for authors.

[Danielle Robay]

How did, like, was that Gillian Flynn,

[Jessica Knoll]

when Gone Girl came out, it. The news was like, she was going to adapt it with David Fincher. And, like, that was.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

You were like, I can do this.

[Jessica Knoll]

I was like, oh, an author can do this.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

That's cool.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, it was like a roadmap, seeing that, like, if you wrote a book that did well enough and, like, commanded enough of, like, I don't know, like, enough of a competition that maybe you could say, like, hey, like, here's the condition. Like, I wanna be involved.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

So when you turn a novel into a screen story, you're sort of reperforming

[Danielle Robay]

it for a new audience, right?

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

You're choosing what's true, what's gonna be cut.

[Danielle Robay]

Has being on that side of the

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

camera changed how much you trust your narrators on the page at all?

[Jessica Knoll]

Being on that side of the camera has taught me. I don't know if it's about trust so much as efficiency that that has actually proved very useful in novel writing too. Like, I always like to think of it as, like, no waste, basically. Like, you use every part of the carrot. Like, you even use, like, the greens, and you, like, wash those and chop them up and, like, put them in a salad, like.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Right.

[Jessica Knoll]

That's what screenwriting taught me is every. Every moment, every character, like, needs to be, like, utilized because you just don't have that much real estate. So, like, you really have to make everything count. And I. I think Helpless is, like, probably it's. Well, not probably. It's definitely my tightest, shortest novel, which I'm really proud of, because it's actually harder to write something shorter than it is to.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Yes, it is.

[Jessica Knoll]

To write something longer. And I've struggled to, like, cut things in the past. And I really credit the kind of tightness of this plot and the, like, what I mean, the feedback I'm getting is, like, I read it in a day, and that's, like, all I want,

[Co-host or secondary speaker]

you know, because, like, our attention.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Read it in a plane ride.

[Jessica Knoll]

Read it in a plane ride. And, like, you could potentially finish it in a plain ride. Because I just think, like, there is so much competition for our attention these days. And, like, there's for mine too. Like, I am not. It is hard for me to sink into things harder now than it used to be. You know, I don't like to Admit that. So something has to, like, really, like, grab me by the balls.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Do you have a trick for grabbing people right away? I'll share this with you. I. I have a friend who's a writer who's also a screen. Like a director. She was on the show. Her name's Chelsea Devontes, and she told me, write one true thing, and that's your first sentence. And so a lot of times it can be contradictory. Like, this has been the best year of my life, and I'm lying to everybody I know.

[Jessica Knoll]

Right? Yes.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Do you have a tactic you use?

[Jessica Knoll]

I do think a killer first line is, like, obviously, but. But I say that with a caveat that, like, if I'm reading a killer first sign, it's killer because it feels effortless. At the same time, it can't be gimmicky. It can't be gimmicky. So. And a lot of times, the overall experience of reading the book and the quality of the writing and the quality of the story, I can. That. That either proves that the first line was gimmicky or not. You know what I mean? So it's like, the whole experience of the book. But, yeah, I want, like, a really. A really dynamic first line is hard to beat.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah. And for me, honestly, I think my favorite first line is from Donna Tartt's the Secret History. And I probably won't get it word for word, but it's like the snow was melting in the mountains and Bunny had been dead for a week. Oh, it's a good one.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

It's a good. I mean, now I need to read.

[Jessica Knoll]

Oh, it's one of my favorite books. You have to read it. You have to read it. And the fact that, like, it's never been made into a movie and they tried and, like, Gwyneth Paltrow was supposed to start in it in the 90s. Like, it just, like, adds to the, like, the lore and the, like, mythology of it. Like, it can't be adapted. It's, like, unadaptable because it's so special.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I need a Jessica Noel TBR list.

[Jessica Knoll]

Okay.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Like, I make it a free download.

[Jessica Knoll]

We will all be a mystery on there for sure.

[Co-host or secondary speaker]

Right now.

[Danielle Robay]

I'm super excited for my upcoming trip to Atlanta. I'm taking my mom to celebrate her birthday. She's never been. And I'm gonna take her to eat all the best food, see the best jazz music, and I'm gonna have to sneak in a museum or two trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb Co Host Network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning you extra cash. Find a co [e-mail] host Today's episode

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

is brought to you by Cotton we spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and with characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for lazy weekend mornings with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like the books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into our everyday moments. Moments like following four adult daughters as they navigate love, loss and the legacy in the Most Fun We Ever had by Claire Lombardo, all while curled up in soft cotton joggers or Sinking into the island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak. A story that spans generations, forbidden love and a fig tree that remembers everything wrapped in a hand stitched quilt, each

[Danielle Robay]

thread holding its own kind of memory.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton not just

[Danielle Robay]

to read the story, but to feel it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Cotton the Fabric of Our Lives. Learn [e-mail] when you're planning a trip,

[Danielle Robay]

it helps to have a credit card that rewards you no matter where you like to book. That's the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. What makes a difference is how flexible it is. You can earn rewards where you like to book travel. If you like going straight to the airline or hunting down a deal on a hotel site, this card is designed to keep rewarding you. Here's how the points stack up. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. So picture booking that hotel in the neighborhood you've always wanted to stay in, that's earning points. Grabbing flights for a last minute getaway? That's earning Sitting down for that first dinner when you land, still earning Even the everyday stuff between trips can help toward your next journey. The autographed Journey card from Wells Fargo helps turn the way you already travel, eat and explore into rewards. Learn more@wells fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply. Nothing compares to the anticipation of something new, a new start, a new year, a new home, or a new car. When it's time to get a new car, where do you start? Car shopping can honestly be a little overwhelming, but it should be fun. Buying your next car should be exciting. And it can be if you remember one thing. Cars.com cars.com has the tools and expert advice to help you figure out what vehicle is right for you. Their advanced search filters allow you to explore 2 million new and used cars so that you can find the perfect car. The site is so easy to use. Looking for an electric vehicle with a third row and leather seats for easy cleanup? Cars.com has you covered. A variety of tools and badges are used to help shoppers understand the price of a vehicle and find the best deal. And every review is written by a real person reflecting a real life experience, so don't take any chances. Do car shopping the easy way. Start your search with cars.com where to next allergy season does not slow down when you are on the move. That's why Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues are ready whenever sneezes strike. Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues are allergist approved and silky soft for up to 100% irritation free skin. And now with the new Kleenex Snap and Go, you can get that same gentle care made for life on the go. Get the Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues you love in a new compact durable package. New Kleenex Snap and Go snaps shut for a clean tissue anytime, anywhere. For whatever happens next. Grab Kleenex Snap and Go. When I was looking over your books,

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

your catalog of books, I kept thinking these could possibly put be put into the female rage category. And so often your female characters get to have payback for what they've endured. And I think I figured out why I love your writing so much is because it's so satisfying to me. It's not just a woman sitting with pain, she's really externalizing it and acting on it.

[Danielle Robay]

And I don't get that a lot in thrillers.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Sometimes I get revenge, but it feels sort of played out. How do you think about it? Do you think of your characters as female Rey genre?

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, I mean definitely. Luckiest Girl Alive was like exploding with rage. I think that, well, anger is like a normal feeling to Feel right.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll]

So I think any well drawn character is going to have moments of anger and rage in, but some of them

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

are not well drawn.

[Danielle Robay]

Like, there was a movie I saw

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

recently and the actress shall not be named, but she's screaming in her car.

[Jessica Knoll]

Oh, I know that's a real cliche.

[Danielle Robay]

It's a cliche.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

And I've never, I don't. I'm not screaming in my car.

[Jessica Knoll]

I never screamed in my car. No, never.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

You know, so your rage feels so relatable.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah.

[Danielle Robay]

Do you think there's a formula for making it satisfying?

[Jessica Knoll]

I feel like a lot of how I write my rage, though is like it's, it's interior and it's happening while. While performing, like, complicity or complacency or like whatever, you know what I mean? Like, so we've all had that feeling. Yeah. So I think that's like a very relatable feeling, especially as a woman, you know, where you're just like slapping a smile on, but like inside you're boiling.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll]

And you're seeing things. Like you're seeing things that, that maybe other people don't see or, or the men in your life don't see. And that's always very enraging to me. Less so now that I'm in therapy because I can appreciate the fact that again, back to the end of one thing, like, everyone comes to life with a different experience. It's like, I can't expect people to, like, get as fired up about things that I get fired up about because they haven't had the same experiences that make me so fired up, you know? So I try and have a little bit more, like, perspective.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

You must have a good therapist because I've been in.

[Jessica Knoll]

Me too.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I've been in therapy for, I think, seven years.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

And I really. If I'm in Los Angeles, where I live, and a car honks at me, I think that person must be having a bad day.

[Danielle Robay]

And then I land in New York and a car honks at me and

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I'm slapping on their hood.

[Danielle Robay]

Like, who do you think?

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, right.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Oh, my gosh, this place makes me nuts.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, it makes you nuts. And maybe it's like, also more socially acceptable to be angry here.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Yes, it is.

[Danielle Robay]

Well, you know, when men are angry

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

in fiction, it's kind of called a quest. And when women are, it's rage.

[Jessica Knoll]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

What do you make of that difference?

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, that's very interesting because I think we're comfortable with seeing men express anger. And it feels like an inherently red blooded American male emotion. And I just think anytime people act outside of their, like, assigned roles, it makes us twitchy, you know, it's like, that's not how you're supposed to be acting, you know?

[Ad Voice]

And even.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yes, even, like, I catch myself doing it, you know, and I'm like, I. I think that's all those times that, like, women say, like, I'm being a bad feminist. But, you know, like, it's hard. Like, you grow up with a certain set of, like, like, social messaging, and then you have to, like, break out of it and, like, unlearn it and. But, like, those neural pathways are like, well, trod at that point. Sometimes it's like you have to, like, behave differently. Even if you. You don't feel the way you're going to behave, you can't behave the feeling you're feeling.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Which is such a theme in your writing, right? Is that a theme in Helpless, would you say?

[Jessica Knoll]

In Helpless? The question really is, like, she's kidnapped by her ex. He's holding her hostage in his remote cabin, and he won't tell her why. And at first she thinks it's revenge because of the way things ended. But increasingly, it becomes clear that, like, something else is going on. And so as she's trying to answer the question of, like, why did he bring me here? I am also trying to ask the larger question of, like, what brought us all here? And, like, I hope the ending answers that, because I think this is, like, an interesting moment in time for women's fiction, for pop culture, for just. Just seeing how, like, powerful certain things do, like, Court of Thorns and Roses, like, he did Rivalry. Like, why are we attracted to, like, some of these, you know, very spicy reads and shows that often have an element of, like, risk and danger to them, you know, heated rivalry is like, the risk is, like, they're going to be caught. And, I mean, I don't know if you read Court of Thorns and Roses. I'm obsessed with the series, but there's, like, what hooked me in book one was, like, there was a hostage element and she fell for her kidnapper. And, like, why is that sexy? You know, it was so sexy. But, like, why is that sexy?

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Have you come to a conclusion?

[Jessica Knoll]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

What is it?

[Jessica Knoll]

Well, I. I think what we're seeing in, like, the. In terms of, like, the trend of dark romance and, like, romantasy is. It's just. It's a new name for something that has, like, been around for ages. Like, we've always had erotica in, like, the 70s. We called them bodice rippers, you know, this kind of hallmark of all of these, you know, of this genre is sexual aggression. And I, I think there's, I think it's been studied. Like, it's not a. I don't have an original theory, but I do think we are, we are conditioned very young to, you know, find a certain type of alpha male behavior attractive, even when it's toxic and even when we know it's toxic.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll]

And I think the fantasy part that these books offer is interesting because oftentimes it's a fantasy where control is wrested from you. And that's sexy, but you would never actually want that in real life. But the fantasy is sexy because this fantasy of losing control or control being taken from you is actually within your control because you're the one crafting the fantasy. So it's like it like turns your head around.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Interesting.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah. Like there's a level of. There's a level of like power we have in like submitting to these fantasies where like, you are submissive, you know?

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Jessica Knoll]

Like they're like, you're the one calling the shots in these fantasies because it's like coming from your own head.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

So fascinating. I think you're right.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah. As far as the theory goes, I don't even know if that's original. But that's mine.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

No, I like it. Okay. I always ask our guests something that

[Danielle Robay]

they are so obsessed with that they

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

could probably write a book about it, but they won't.

[Jessica Knoll]

Oh, easy. Summer House Scandal.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Did you watch the Final Reunion? I haven't watched it yet. I'm saving it.

[Jessica Knoll]

Well, did you hear we're getting like a bonus episode next? Yeah, it's going to be like a sit down between Mija and Ciara, west and Lindsay and then Lindsay and Amanda and then west and Kyle.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

First of all, Mija really came up here because she, she's been named this whole. I. I was, I didn't watch Summer House. And then my best friend from college was like, you have to catch up. And in about a month span, I watched nine seasons.

[Jessica Knoll]

Oh, my God, you went back to like the archives?

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Oh, yeah. Had to understand the lore.

[Jessica Knoll]

Wow.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Okay, so because you are such an expert at writing female rage, I wanted to walk through a few classic literary moments of rage and get your take.

[Jessica Knoll]

Okay.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I'm thinking like, what kind of rage is this? What makes it satisfying? What would you have done differently?

[Co-host or secondary speaker]

Maybe?

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Why was it successful?

[Danielle Robay]

Whatever your take is.

[Jessica Knoll]

Okay.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Okay, so this is a very famous one. Carrie at prom, after the blood gets Dumped on her.

[Jessica Knoll]

Okay. That's, like, revenge rage, I think. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

And is it satisfying?

[Jessica Knoll]

It really is. Because John Travolta, the character he played in that, was such a pig. And I, like, still remember, like, when he gets in the pickup truck and then it, like, rolls.

[Sean Duffy]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll]

And, like, seeing that, like, he knew he was in trouble. That was pretty satisfying.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Okay, so Gone Girl was my next pick. But you can't pick a scene. The whole thing is female rage.

[Jessica Knoll]

Okay. Crafty rage. Very.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Maybe the craftiest.

[Jessica Knoll]

The craftiest. Like, also, like, elite rage.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Would you have done anything differently?

[Jessica Knoll]

I. I don't think I could have even pulled that off, like, to that level. Like, Amy Dunne is like. That's. Yeah. Like, she's in a different stratosphere in terms of.

Yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Elite.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Okay. So you mentioned Donna Tartt's the Secret History. I love your take on the character Camilla.

[Jessica Knoll]

Oh, I don't see her as having any rage. She's so docile and, like. But, you know, she's framed through the lens of our narrator, who is a little bit of, like, a Great Gatsby of a little bit of a. Not Jay Gatsby, the narrator of Great Gatsby type, because he's a kind of infiltrator to the group. So Camila is, like, probably suppressed rage.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Yeah. It's quiet.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

It's quiet.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah.

I don't think she's, like, in touch with it yet.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Oh, interesting. She doesn't even know she has it.

[Jessica Knoll]

I don't think so. But I would think that, like, because

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

she's an active accomplice in two murders.

[Jessica Knoll]

That is true. That is true. I might be infantilizing her a little bit.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Okay. The last one, when Celie leaves in

[Danielle Robay]

the Color Purple, I mean, that's, like,

[Jessica Knoll]

empowering rage, you know? Like, it's like you did something with it, Rach.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll]

Like, that's. Like, it was bottled up, and then, like, you used it for good.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Jessica Knoll]

You left him.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Oh. Jessica, I want to talk to you for two more hours.

[Danielle Robay]

Okay.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Before you leave me. What is the best writing advice that you've ever been given?

[Jessica Knoll]

You can't edit a blank page.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Who said that?

[Jessica Knoll]

I don't know where I heard it, honestly. And I think I've heard you. It just stayed with me. And I think I've just heard, like, variations of it. You know, people saying, like, don't wait for the light bulb to go off. Like, you know, inspiration finds you working. I think that's, like, actually a dolly quote. But, like, the theme of all of all of this is like, you just like, there's no like, bolt of inspiration that's going to strike you and like a eureka moment. Like, you've got to just put pen to paper and like, write something, even if it's bad, and then you can go back and make it good. But, like, you can't make. You can't make nothing good. Like, you have to have start with your shitty first draft, basically.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

What is the writing advice you most often give?

[Jessica Knoll]

That.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

It's that same.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, it's the same. It's like, just do it. You find your characters, you find your story. I mean, you should. You should have some sense of what you're sitting down to do. I always have a little bit of like an, like an incubation process where like, I have an idea and I think about, like, who the characters might be, who the players might be before, and like, maybe I'll. I'll kind of sit with that for like a couple of months and then like, I'll sit down. But it's still very half baked. Oftentimes I don't. Things don't really firm up until like the third or fourth draft. Like, it takes a lot of passes to get there. It sucks.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Do you.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Do you have anybody that you count as your collaborator? Like, do you bounce the ideas off your husband?

[Jessica Knoll]

No, never. No, because it's just like, not his thing. It's not his. Like, the stuff I'm interested in is like, not the stuff he's interested in.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Right.

[Co-host or secondary speaker]

Really?

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

My.

[Jessica Knoll]

My book agent, Alyssa Rubin, is like the person I kind of go to first because that's how we started. And so that's been my process for every book since.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

She's so smart.

[Jessica Knoll]

I know she's a great. So smart. And she has such a good. She's not afraid to say, like, that doesn't work or.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

I don't like that she's told me that.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, it's important though.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

It's how I knew I could trust her.

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, that's exactly. Because then when she says something is good, you know, it's actually good.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

So if you have these ideas rattling around in your brain all the time, how did you decide Helpless was the next story that you needed to tell?

[Jessica Knoll]

Yeah, because it was like, really, like, you know, took up space in my brain. Like it wasn't letting go, but. And I just felt like, I don't know, like I was so. I was so interested in this question, you know, of like, why women kind of have these taboo fantasies, like, what's that all about? Like, I really wanted to dig into that. And I think I've gotten better with time of being able to, like, discard an idea that maybe on its face seems like it has legs, but, like, I can already tell. Like, I actually don't think I can write that, you know, of like, recognizing like, my limitations and kind of sticking to ideas that feel like I can actually develop this into something, you know, and I'm not just gonna, like, frustrate myself and, like, waste my time and, like, go on a fool's errand, basically.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Danielle Robay]

You're so incisive.

[Jessica Knoll]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (likely Danielle Robay or co-host)]

And precise. I. I so enjoy talking to you.

[Jessica Knoll]

I really enjoyed talking to you too.

[Co-host or secondary speaker]

Foreign. Okay, friends, before we wrap today's episode, it's time for another edition of the Book Nook brought to you by Cotton. This is our little corner for celebrating the rituals that make reading feel cozy and personal and completely your own. And honestly, so many of those rituals start with comfort, the kind that comes from the pieces closest to your skin. Whether it's your favorite cotton tee, the soft tank you throw on after a

[Danielle Robay]

long day, breathable bedding, or the lounge

[Co-host or secondary speaker]

staples you practically live in all spring and summer, Cotton has this way of making everyday moments feel softer, cooler, and a little more grounded. Let's hear from another bookmarked listener about their ideal reading setup.

[Danielle Robay]

Hi, Bookmarked.

[Jessica Knoll]

Hi Danielle. This is Jay calling from Lawrence, Kansas. My ideal reading setup is actually what I'm sitting in right now. I am sitting on my couch with my cat Ophelias sitting next to me. She likes to curl up next to me. She'll flop pretty dramatically into my side and of course, wannabe pet with at least one hand, the other hand I have my book and on the TV in the background, just keep an eye on what's going on. I have a basketball game just to have a little background noise. And I'm sitting here with Ophelia next to me, book in hand.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Jay, this is such a perfect picture of comfort.

[Co-host or secondary speaker]

A cozy couch, a basketball game humming in the background, a dramatic cat demanding attention. Honestly, that sounds like a pretty ideal evening to me. And there's something so nice about those simple layers of comfort that make it easier to settle in and stay present with a good boy. The soft tee, the lived in lounge pants, the breathable cotton basics you reach for without even thinking about it. Those first layer essentials really do carry us through everything from busy mornings to quiet nights like this one.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I also love that your setup feels

[Co-host or secondary speaker]

equal parts relaxed and lived in. That's the beauty of Cotton to me, it helps you feel cool, comfortable and fully yourself, whether you're traveling, winding down at home, or curled up on the couch with a pet who absolutely, absolutely believes they are the main character. Cotton is soft, breathable and doesn't shed microplastics, which makes it an easy choice for the everyday pieces you practically live in, from tanks and tees to pajamas and bedding. So, friends, keep your ideal reading setups coming. I want all the details. Are you stretched out under crisp cotton sheets, reading on vacation in your favorite worn and tea? Hosting a backyard book club in the comfiest lounge set imaginable? Tell me everything. Leave me a voicemail at 501-291-3379 or email a voice memo to bookmarkedesbookclub.com thanks to Cotton for bringing this segment to life and for reminding us that comfort starts with the everyday essentials closest to our skin. Learn [e-mail]

[Danielle Robay]

that's it for this episode of Cotton, bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. Our phone line is now open, so if you want to go 90s on us, give us a call at 1-501-291-3379. That's 1-501-291-33790. Share your literary hot takes, your book recommendations, questions about the monthly pick, or let us know what you think about the episode you just heard and who who knows, you might just hear yourself in our next episode. So don't overthink it. Give us a ring. And if you want more, come hang with us. Reese's Book Club is on Instagram serving up books, good vibes and all the behind the scenes stuff you love. And I'm Danielle Robey, R O B A Y so come say hi and please seriously DM me because I actually read them and I love hearing what you think about the episodes. And don't forget to follow Bookmark by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. We'll see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me, Danielle Robay, production by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Maddy Foley, Brittany Martinez and Sarah Schlied. Our editor is Carmen Borca Carrillo. Our production assistant is Avery Loftus. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter are executive producers for Acast Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are executive producers for hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa Kristin Perla, Ashley Rapaport and Sarah Kernerman are associate producers for Reese's Book Club, and Ally Perry is executive producer for iHeart Podcasts.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton we spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton not just

[Danielle Robay]

to read the story, but to feel it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more at thefabricofourlives.com the autograph journey

[Danielle Robay]

Credit Card from Wells Fargo is built for travel. You can earn rewards wherever you book your favorite hotel site your go to airline and more. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. Whether it's a big vacation or a quick getaway from booking your stay to that first meal, when you arrive, you're turning your trips into rewards with the Autograph Journey Card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply.

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[Jessica Knoll]

Or are they?

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[Danielle Robay]

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