← Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
The Women Who Changed Romance: Kennedy Ryan, Tia Williams and Beverly Jenkins
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- [00:01]
Danielle Robay
The Autograph Journey Credit Card from Wells Fargo is built for travel. You can earn rewards wherever you your favorite hotel site your go to airline and more. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. Whether it's a big vacation or a quick getaway from booking your stay to that first meal when you arrive, you're turning your trips into rewards with the Autograph Journey card from Wells Fargo. Learn more@wells fargo.com autographjourney terms apply. Recently I went on a trip to Panama with my dad. He took me on a little speedboat to the jungle and I got to see Titi monkeys. They were so cute and I dragged him to all the best restaurants. If you are planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And now with the Co Host Network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything like managing reservations, guest communication, and even styling your space. Find a co host@airbnb.com host Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton we spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you? In the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort, and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like books we cherish, cotton leaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more at thefabric of Our lives.
- [01:46]
Beverly Jenkins
Com.
- [01:47]
Danielle Robay
I'm partnering with Simple Mills and I have now found a new go to Reading snack. Simple Mills Almond Flour Crackers Think of this as a quick book style review because these crackers deserve it. The premise? A snack that feels light, not heavy. Made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Nutrient dense ingredients your body can use. Not empty carbs and the taste Crunchy, classic flavors that leave you feeling energized. For a good plot twist, try Pop' Ems. Cheesy, airy, poppable crackers packed with veggies. Final Verdict these are a shelf staple. Find simple meals at your grocery store. This episode is brought to you by Kleenex Lotion Tissues. Cold season has a way of showing up like an unexpected plot twist right in the middle of big moments, good stories and days that are already full. That's why it helps to keep a little comfort close. Kleenex lotion tissues help protect, soothe and moisturize your skin, giving you the support you need right when you need it. Whether you're commuting, binge, listening to your favorite show, or managing a little family chaos, Kleenex lotion tissues are made with coconut oil and aloe. For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex. Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi, I'm Danielle Robaix, and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. This week feels significant. Let me tell you why. For the first time ever, generations of romance writers Beverly Jenkins, Tia Williams and Kennedy Ryan are in an interview together.
- [03:24]
Tia Williams
Romance. One of the things that drew me to it is how opposite of my worldview it is. It's like lithium. Literary lithium.
- [03:33]
Beverly Jenkins
Lolita is not a romance. Neither is Anna Karenina.
- [03:37]
Kennedy Ryan
No.
- [03:38]
Beverly Jenkins
You got a woman who throws herself under a train with because of a. Can I say boy? Yeah,
- [03:47]
Kennedy Ryan
we are glad that you said it.
- [03:49]
Danielle Robay
And if you read romance, you know that this is a big deal. And if you aren't a romance girly yet, let me tell you, this is a big deal. So here's the rundown. Beverly Jenkins has been publishing since the 1990s, long before algorithms and booktok and before romance was a billion dollar business. Right. She helped pioneer black historical romance when the industry wasn't exactly asking for it. She writes these sweeping, meticulously researched love stories where black women are desired and complex and undeniably the heroine for so many readers and writers. Beverly didn't just publish books. She widened the doorway. And then Tia Williams walked through it. And in her very Tia way, she redesigned the house. One of my favorite romance books ever is hers Seven Days in June. And if you read that or her novel, A Love Song for Ricky Wilde, you know that Tia can wreck us emotionally in the most exquisite way. And before she was even a novelist, Tia was shaping culture as a beauty editor at Elle, Essence and Glamour. No matter her medium, Tia knows how to tell a story. And then there is Kennedy Ryan. Kennedy builds outward. She's built a global community around romance that does not look away from real life. Her books are sweeping and sensual. Yes. And they also confront disability, addiction, reproductive rights, systemic injustice. Kennedy insists that love stories can hold both heat and humanity. There's a few things I deeply loved about this conversation. It wasn't just the laughter or the banter between the three of them. It was so cool to hear about and witness in real time what a difference a generation makes. When Beverly started out, romance novels were read in private and kind of pass hand to hand under the table. And now Kennedy and Tia are superstar novelists whose books get passed around like a viral meme. So if you believe in the power of love stories, if you've ever needed permission to take up space on the page, or if there's just a story in your heart waiting to be written, you're in the right place. Let's turn the page with Beverly Jenkins, Tia Williams, and Kennedy Ryan. Welcome to the club. Tia, Kennedy, Beverly. This is so exciting.
- [06:18]
Tia Williams
So thrilled to be here. Thank you for having us.
- [06:21]
Beverly Jenkins
Oh, yeah. Glad to be here.
- [06:25]
Danielle Robay
Is this the first time you've all been together in one room?
- [06:28]
Beverly Jenkins
I think so.
- [06:30]
Kennedy Ryan
The three of us together? Never. So I need my screenshot before this is all over.
- [06:36]
Beverly Jenkins
These are two of my favorite girls.
- [06:38]
Danielle Robay
Well, I feel like I'm in the presence of romance royalty right now. The three of them. You have given us, friends to lovers, second chances, enemies to lovers, slow burns that I think nearly killed us at the whole spectrum of falling in love. So I'm gonna be honest with you all. I'm determined to meet a man this year.
- [06:59]
Tia Williams
Oh, I love this.
- [07:01]
Beverly Jenkins
Name it and claim it, girl. Name it and claim it.
- [07:04]
Kennedy Ryan
Manifestation station.
- [07:06]
Beverly Jenkins
Make sure it's a good one, though. You know there's a bunch of frogs out there, right?
- [07:11]
Danielle Robay
Well, I need the experts, and with your deep knowledge of what makes a relationship actually thrive to. So what is the best relationship wisdom that you have gained through writing your love stories? Beverly, you are the pioneer of this modern genre. Will you do the honors of going first for me?
- [07:29]
Beverly Jenkins
I mean, whether it's writing books or whether it's real, love is hard work. And I had my husband for 30 years before I lost him to cancer. But there were days when I wanted to bury him in the backyard. And I've said it before, and there's days he wanted to bury me in the backyard. So love is hard work. So that's my take.
- [07:53]
Danielle Robay
Well said and real. Thank you, Beverly. Tia, what do you think?
- [07:57]
Tia Williams
You know, it's funny. You say you want to find a man this year, you could find a man outside right now. You could go to the bodega.
- [08:04]
Kennedy Ryan
They're everywhere.
- [08:05]
Tia Williams
But the thing is, it's the right man. And I feel like the right man for an evolved woman is an evolved man. And, you know, I always say that in my books. All the men have gone to therapy. While that's not, you know, it's harder to find in real life, I think having intellectual curiosity and emotional curiosity and a willingness to sort of unpack his layers, I think that makes a great partner. Assuming that you, as a woman, have also done the work too. I feel like we get into problems with guys when they show up, like, halfway realized. Like, they don't really know why they do the things that they do. And if they haven't done that work, it's hard for them to show up with any grace and authenticity. For us, that was so much weaponized therapy talk. I'm so embarrassed.
- [08:58]
Danielle Robay
Tia, you're speaking to my soul. That's what I run into. Kennedy, what do you think?
- [09:04]
Kennedy Ryan
Yeah, I think it kind of builds off of both of those answers in that I'm looking for. I have. I have been married to the same man for almost 30 years. So we got together young, and we've grown together. And I think he's a therapized man. You know, he wasn't always. Neither one of us were. But it goes back to what Ms. Bev was saying about, like, doing the work. And I think that one thing that has been so. We've been through a lot. You know, I. Even when I write, I talk about people like, why do you write the hard stuff? And I'm like, really? I think that love shines brightest when it's tested, you know, and being with someone who you can walk through hard things with, and that it's somebody who is secure enough to support you no matter what, and you feel the same.
- [09:48]
Danielle Robay
What I'm hearing from you is. Is a deep commitment, like a not giving up regardless of the circumstance. Yeah, that's beautiful. Beverly, you've been publishing romance for over 30 years. You. Jesus, you survived Fabio covers. You survived the mass market paperback era, you survived the Kindle revolution, and now you're surviving book talk. Okay, so what was your oh, this is it moment back in 1994, when did. You know, I'm not just writing books. I'm shifting culture.
- [10:23]
Beverly Jenkins
A lot of things. Black women had been reading romance forever, even when there was nothing in the market for us. And the stories that I received, you know, on tour and, you know, at my pajama party and stuff about how they reacted let me know that, you know, we sort of put a shift in the world. One woman told me that when she picked up, she saw Nightsong, which was the first book. She picked it up. She was freaked out by the COVID Two black People on a romance, she said. The first thing she did was open it up to the back to see who had written it, she said. And when I saw it was a black woman, she said, I sat on the floor in the bookstore right there and started reading. Oh, wow. So I got a lot of stories like that. And then I got, when Indigo was published, a letter from Dangerfield Newby's Descendants. And Dangerfield Newby was one of the black men who was killed with John Brown during the raid at Harpers Ferry. And they were writing me to let me know that they were so proud that I was highlighting their ancestor and his contribution. And I was like, whoa, this is wild. I was. You know, I was so moved, and so just the love and respect and, you know, I don't know, purpose that the book served over these 30 years. So I'm so grateful to the readers. I don't know what to do. And these young ladies here, too.
- [12:00]
Danielle Robay
It's not often, especially nowadays, that anyone or I have the opportunity to speak to somebody who pioneered an industry. And so to hear your perspective is personally just so exciting to me, but also so valuable. And I see Tia and Kennedy as you're speaking. I can tell both of you are so moved by Beverly's words. Can I just ask you, like, what you were feeling as she was sharing that?
- [12:28]
Kennedy Ryan
Every time I am with Ms. Bev, I feel incredibly moved. This is, like, now it's, like, legend for me, lore for me, that the first time I met Ms. Bev was at Essence Fest maybe two or three years ago. But when I came face to face with Ms. Bev, I literally miss Bev. Is this that true? Sobbing?
- [12:55]
Beverly Jenkins
It was the ugly cry.
- [12:56]
Kennedy Ryan
It was an ugly cry. Sobbing, you know, and I. I couldn't control it. I didn't know it was gonna happen, But I just felt like I am standing in the presence of greatness, you know, I felt like I am standing in front of somebody who every time I talk about it, I get emotional. But I just felt like I'm on this woman's shoulders, you know? And, like, I am a lifelong romance reader. I started reading romance in the eighth grade, which was a long time ago. And I remember how overwhelmingly white it was, you know, even in people who would inspire me as a writer and then to come back to romance later and to see somebody like Ms. Bev, who, I always say, it didn't exist. There was no blueprint for it. There was no roadmap for it. And she made it out of nothing, you know, and so to be in that tradition, you know, of black romance and of romance writing as a black woman. It's incredibly moving. Like I cry just every time I'm with her, I cry. So I mean it also could be perimenopause, but like,
- [14:05]
Beverly Jenkins
and I have to bring up too though that I'm standing on shoulders. You know, I'm standing on Sandra Kitt's shoulders. I'm standing on Rosalind Wells shoulders. I'm standing on Frances Ellen Watkins Harper, 19th century abolitionist womanist, one of the first women to ever do a whole lot of stuff. And she wrote the very first African American romance, iola Leroy, in 1892. She was 70 years old. To go with her the most iconic poem in abolition, Bury me in a free land. So we are all standing on shoulders. And I would be remiss to say that I invented anything because I didn't.
- [14:51]
Danielle Robay
Spoken like a true pioneer. Beverly. When you're planning a trip, it helps to have a credit card that rewards you no matter where you like to book. That's the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. What makes a difference is how flexible it is. You can earn rewards where you like to book, travel. If you like going straight to the airline or hunting down a deal on a hotel site, this card is designed to keep rewarding you. Here's how the points stack up. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. So picture booking that hotel in the neighborhood you've always wanted to stay in, that's earning points. Grabbing flights for a last minute getaway, that's earning sitting down for that first dinner when you land. Still earning. Even the everyday stuff between trips can help toward your next journey. The Autograph Journey card from Wells Fargo helps turn the way you already travel, eat and explore into rewards. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply. Today's episode is brought to you by cotton. We spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and with characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands, but also in the world around you? In the fabric that's holding you close. Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for lazy weekend mornings with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like the books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into our everyday moments. Moments like following four adult daughters as they navigate love, loss and the legacy in the Most Fun We Ever had by Claire Lombardo, all while curled up in soft cotton joggers or sinking into the island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak. A story that spans generations, forbidden love and a fig tree that remembers everything wrapped in a hand stitched quilt, each thread holding its own kind of memory. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more at thefabricofourlives.com Recently I went on a trip to Panama with my dad and we go on a trip every single year together. This year I had so much fun. We drank Panamanian coffee every morning. He took me on a little speedboat to the jungle and I got to see Titi monkeys. We ate absolutely delicious food. I dragged him to all the best restaurants and we always pick a book to read together set in the city we're visiting. So we picked a Panamanian thriller and it was twisty. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb Co Host Network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything. Okay, like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning you extra cash. Find a co host@airbnb.com host I'm partnering with Simple Mills and I have now found a new Go to snack. When I'm reading Simple Mills Almond Flour crackers, I thought I'd review them book style because these crackers deserve it. Let's start with the premise. A snack that doesn't leave you feeling weighed down. Made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Nutrient dense ingredients your body can use with protein, vitamins and fiber, not just empty carbs. That's a solid foundation and just like a good premise needs great writing. Simple Mills Almond flour crackers also taste amazing. Classic flavors like fine ground sea salt, a crunchy texture and a light finish that leaves you feeling uplifted and energized. It's like a taste of sunshine in every bite. For a change in genre, try Pop' Ems Cheesy, airy and poppable crackers with an unexpected twist. They're packed with veggies. Here's my verdict. Simple, Mills. Crackers are a snack staple you'll always want on your shelf. Okay, I've hit my metaphor quota for the year, but these crackers are worth it. Find simple meals at your grocery store.
- [19:13]
Beverly Jenkins
Segregation in the day, integration at night.
- [19:19]
Narrator/Promoter
When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules.
- [19:24]
Beverly Jenkins
We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world.
- [19:29]
Narrator/Promoter
Inside Charlie's Place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.
- [19:37]
Kennedy Ryan
You saw the kkk.
- [19:38]
Beverly Jenkins
Yeah. They were dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here.
- [19:47]
Tia Williams
Charlie was an example of power.
- [19:51]
Danielle Robay
They had to crush him.
- [19:54]
Narrator/Promoter
From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and visit Myrtle beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time until now. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [20:14]
Danielle Robay
Tia, do you remember the first time you read a Beverly Jenkins book? Was it a I See Myself? Was it, oh, this is what's possible. Was it? This is what I need to do. What did you feel?
- [20:25]
Tia Williams
So when Ms. Bev was telling the story about the woman who sat down in the bookstore. That was me. I. I mean, that was not me, but that was my reaction with Nightsong.
- [20:35]
Danielle Robay
Wow.
- [20:35]
Tia Williams
I've been a romance reader since I was nine years old, stealing my mom's historical romances. And, you know, yes, we all stand on shoulders, but in my lifetime, it just didn't exist. And so I grew up with the judges and the woodooses, and I loved them. And I would recast all the characters as black people in my mind. And I knew at a young age that I was gonna grow up and write those kinds of books. But starring us, because having to picture yourself as the black version of something is whack. And then. So reading Nightsong, just seeing the COVID took me clean out, because I'm still coming from a place, and I think culturally, we're all still coming from a place. Where do we even want to read historical fiction starring us? Like, what was really happening, you know? And I know that Ms. Bev opened my mind up to a world in which we had humanity and we had love, and we had all of the feelings and the passions and the emotions that we have now then. So, yeah, it was like seeing myself for the first time.
- [21:49]
Danielle Robay
First of all, thank you for sharing that, Tia. And per usual, you bring up an even larger point, I think, which is that historical romance can sometimes romanticize the past. And when I watch Bridgerton, I wanna fall in love with a castle and wear ball gowns. But a lot of the stories that take place in a past era were shaped by racial violence. I'm curious, Beverly, how did you thread the needle of depicting a beautiful love story without softening the reality of. Of the era that it's shaped by.
- [22:22]
Beverly Jenkins
By keeping the story focused on the couple, you know, because it's a romance. And yes, you have Jim Crow and yes, you have, you know, the Red Summer 1919, and you got Tulsa and you have the lynchings. But our people survived that with fearlessness and cleverness and love. So I focused that my story's on that relationship and the rest of it is in the background. Because even with, like I said, even with all of the crap that we've had to put up with as, as black people in America, we still loved. We still had marriages, our men still courted us, we still built colleges, you know, so that tradition of all of the things that we face and we still loved.
- [23:09]
Danielle Robay
I was lucky enough to interview Tia a year or two ago and I learned that she sort of had this past life because before she became a novelist, she was a beauty editor at a very prominent magazine. Tia, your lore runs so deep.
- [23:26]
Beverly Jenkins
It's pretty deep.
- [23:27]
Tia Williams
I have some stories.
- [23:28]
Beverly Jenkins
Yeah.
- [23:29]
Danielle Robay
I actually don't know if Beverly or Kennedy had a past life either. Were you guys full time writers always or did you also have a past life?
- [23:38]
Kennedy Ryan
Oh, gosh, I definitely have a past life. My background is journalism and when my son was diagnosed with autism when he was two, maybe was when I. Within the next like two years, I started a foundation for families with children with autism. And I ran that for 11 years. I have still an auction that raises a lot of money for autism. Like that's connected to the book community. So autism advocacy, special needs, parenting, like that's something that is such a huge part of my life and my life purpose. So that's what a big part of my life. Before I started publishing, you know, I thought I was going to be, you know, reporting from a war torn country. And now I'm writing, you know, meet cutes.
- [24:18]
Beverly Jenkins
And so I had no intention of being a writer. All I ever wanted to do was work in a library. And life gave me that. And the next thing I know, you know, life sometimes, or the Lord or the universe hands you stuff and says, here, wear this hat. And I was like, oh, okay. One of my colleagues had just gotten published and I told her about this little raggedy manuscript that I was working on Just for me. Because this was, like, 1985. There was no mass market for us in romance or anything else back then. Very limited. And she wanted to see it. And so I brought it in, and she said, you need to get this published. And I'm like, where? How? With who? And some kind of way, I found Vivian Stevens, who basically invented American romance. She's the first black editor at Harlequin. She started Silhouettes and all of that. Anyway, I sent my little raggedy manuscript to her to shut Laverne up. My friend at work, she called me at the desk less than a week later and said she wanted to represent me.
- [25:22]
Tia Williams
I think I should say that when I was growing up, I had two dreams. And it was to be a magazine editor, live in New York and do that whole thing, but also to write fiction and to be a romance novelist. I always knew that. And I moved to Brooklyn, and I started as an editorial assistant at YM Magazine. I was like, okay, so that dream, okay, I can, you know, check that off the list. But now I have to write my novel. But I realized that I didn't really have any exciting experience. I sat down to write, and I was like, what am I writing about? I grew up in the suburbs. I went to college. I just graduated. Now I'm doing, like. I hadn't really had, like, any big boyfriends or any, like, how am I gonna write about sex? What am I doing? I mean, I wasn't a virgin, but, like, it was, you know, it was early.
- [26:14]
Danielle Robay
Just to be clear.
- [26:15]
Kennedy Ryan
Just to be clear.
- [26:16]
Tia Williams
I mean, was out there, but it wasn't out there. So I wanted to get some experience. So, like, fast forward four years later, I met Glamour. I'm the first black beauty editor at Glamour, okay? And this was a big deal. And I was dating a very charismatic psycho, which is what you do at 25. And this is like, Devil Wears Prada magazine era. I had an editor throw a bagel at my head, okay?
- [26:42]
Danielle Robay
Like, oh, wow.
- [26:43]
Tia Williams
It was wild. And I was like, you know what? It's a no for me. So I broke up with the guy, put all my stuff in storage, quit the job at Glamour, which was a big deal because I was the first and the only in the room. But I felt like I was slipping away. So in a move of self preservation, I went to Seville, Spain, for six months to teach Spanish to third graders. And while I was there, I rewrote the story of my psycho romance. But I wrote it in my favor and made him fabulous and gave It a happy ending. And when I got back to New York and, you know, went back to my magazine job, I realized that that was my first book. I wrote it. That was the accident diva in 2004.
- [27:28]
Danielle Robay
First of all, Tia, thank you for chiming in and sharing the larger story, because I would have been so sad if we didn't hear that. But also, I actually. I'm really curious how you guys feel about happy endings. Do you think that a romance book requires one?
- [27:46]
Kennedy Ryan
Yes. I mean, the genre, the definition. By definition in the genre, a romance requires a happily ever after. Or it's not a romance. That's something. For some reason, it's, like, hotly debated now. Like, you can have a love story with a tragic ending, but you can't have a romance. And I know people are gonna be like, what? Some people still. But, like, a romance novel, by definition of the genre, has a happily ever after.
- [28:13]
Beverly Jenkins
It's either HEA or hfn, which is
- [28:16]
Tia Williams
happy for now, which is most ya.
- [28:19]
Beverly Jenkins
Yeah.
- [28:20]
Danielle Robay
Now, do you all think that you were optimistic by nature and so you were drawn to romance, or has the genre made you really believe in the hea, the happily ever after?
- [28:34]
Tia Williams
I'm not optimistic at all. That's why I would read it.
- [28:37]
Kennedy Ryan
He is favorite genre is, like, horror.
- [28:39]
Danielle Robay
Okay.
- [28:40]
Tia Williams
Yeah.
- [28:40]
Beverly Jenkins
And I'm a big fantasy reader, so got to have dragons.
- [28:45]
Danielle Robay
Yeah.
- [28:47]
Tia Williams
I mean, I prefer when everyone dies at the end, but. But romance, one of the things that drew me to it is how opposite of my worldview it is. It's like lithium.
- [28:59]
Danielle Robay
Wow.
- [28:59]
Tia Williams
Literary lithium.
- [29:00]
Beverly Jenkins
Lolita is not a romance. Neither is Anna Karenina. You got a woman who throws herself under a train because of a. Can I say, boy, yeah, we are
- [29:14]
Kennedy Ryan
glad that you said it.
- [29:16]
Beverly Jenkins
I watch her mouth a lot of times. You know, I will paint the room blue. But that is not a romance.
- [29:22]
Kennedy Ryan
I think the thing I love most about romance is that, like, I write about some really difficult things, you know, like. And I enjoy that. And people are like, oh, why do you write trauma? I'm like, we're not writing trauma. It's just life. And a lot of our white counterparts get to write deeply emotional stories that really excavate the human experience. And that's what they call it. It's deeply emotional, excavating the human experience. But when we write it, it's like, oh, that's. It's trauma. Just because we, as black women, are writing it. And I never write the hurt without the healing. But I think that the thing I love about romance is it is the safest genre landscape to unpack those big emotions and those huge, deeply evocative human experiences. And the reason I say it's safe is because we have guaranteed joy at the end. So it's like, yes, I am talking about something that's really deep. I'm talking about something that's really possibly hurtful, but there is a path to healing and there's a path to joy. And we are the only genre that guarantees that. And so when people talk about the predictability of the happily ever afterlife, like it's so predictable. The human experience is not predictable. Like the journey that we are taking to become who we become apart and together is not predictable. The only thing that is safe is that you will get joy in the end. And so that's my approach to romance. You know, Kennedy Deacon, Kennedy girl.
- [30:45]
Tia Williams
When you talk, it's like, listen, we're in church.
- [30:49]
Danielle Robay
I love it.
- [30:50]
Tia Williams
It's so true.
- [30:51]
Danielle Robay
Yeah, it's so good. When you're planning a trip, it helps to have a credit card that rewards you no matter where you like to book. That's the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. What makes a difference is how flexible it is. You can earn rewards where you like to book, travel. If you like going straight to the airline or hunting down a deal on a hotel site, this card is designed to keep rewarding you. Here's how the points stack up. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. So picture booking that hotel in the neighborhood you've always wanted to stay in, that's earning points. Grabbing flights for a last minute getaway, that's earning sitting down for that first dinner when you land, still earning. Even the everyday stuff between trips can help toward your next journey. The Autograph Journey card from Wells Fargo helps turn the way you already travel, eat and explore into rewards. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply. Recently I went on a trip to Panama with my dad and we go on a trip every single year together. This year I had so much fun. We drank Panamanian coffee every morning. He took me on a little speedboat to the jungle and I got to see titi monkeys. We ate absolutely delicious food. I dragged him to all the best restaurants and we always pick a book to read together set in the city we're visiting. So we picked a Panamanian thriller and it was twisty. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb Co Host Network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything. Okay, like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning you extra cash. Find a co host@airbnb.com host I'm partnering with Simple Mills and I have now found a new Go to Snack. When I'm reading Simple Mills Almond Flour Crackers, I thought I'd review them book style because these crackers deserve it. Let's start with the premise A snack that doesn't leave you feeling weighed down. Made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Nutrient dense ingredients your body can use with protein, vitamins and fiber, not just empty carbs. That's a solid foundation and just like a good premise, needs great writing. Simple Mills Almond Flour crackers also taste amazing. Classic flavors like fine ground sea salt, a crunchy texture and a light finish that leaves you feeling uplifted and energized. It's like a taste of sunshine in every bite. For a change in genre, try Pop' Ems. Cheesy, airy and poppable crackers with an unexpected twist. They're packed with veggies. Here's my verdict. Simple Mills crackers are a snack staple you'll always want on your shelf. Okay, I've hit my metaphor quota for the year, but these crackers are worth it. Find Simple Mills at your grocery store.
- [34:03]
Beverly Jenkins
Segregation in the day, Integration at night
- [34:08]
Narrator/Promoter
when segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules.
- [34:13]
Beverly Jenkins
We didn't worry about what was going on outside. It was like stepping in another world.
- [34:18]
Narrator/Promoter
Inside Charlie's Place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.
- [34:26]
Kennedy Ryan
You saw the kkk.
- [34:27]
Beverly Jenkins
Yeah, they was dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here.
- [34:36]
Tia Williams
Charlie was an example of power.
- [34:40]
Danielle Robay
They had to crush him.
- [34:43]
Narrator/Promoter
From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch and visit Myrtle beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [35:02]
Beverly Jenkins
It's the new me and it's the old them.
- [35:04]
Danielle Robay
Everybody's on their journey, and your journey
- [35:06]
Beverly Jenkins
is different to theirs. This woman's History Month the podcast, if you knew better with Amber Grimes, spotlights women who turn missteps into momentum and lessons into power.
- [35:15]
Kennedy Ryan
I think coming out of where I
- [35:17]
Tia Williams
came from, I'm from the Bronx.
- [35:18]
Kennedy Ryan
I think I grew up really poor. I didn't know that then because I very much use my creativity to romanticize life. And I'm like, my mom did a really good job of, like, you step back and you're like, whoa. We. I don't know how we made it. So a lot of my life was, like, built out of, like, survival to
- [35:36]
Tia Williams
get to the next place.
- [35:37]
Kennedy Ryan
Like, my drive, my, like, tunnel vision of, like, I gotta be better, I gotta achieve this was off. The strengths of, like, I want to
- [35:45]
Tia Williams
make a better life for us.
- [35:47]
Beverly Jenkins
If you KNEW Better brings real talk from women who've lived it, unpacking career pivots, relationship lessons, and the mindset shifts that changed everything. Listen to if youf Knew Better with Amber grimes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [36:04]
Danielle Robay
All of you write multi layered characters with agency and desirability. What does it mean to write Black female? Desire without apology?
- [36:13]
Beverly Jenkins
Freedom. It's revolutionary. It's radical. You look back through our history. Dorothy Sterling says the black women of the 19th century had three gifts. We worked whether we were enslaved or free. We had a commitment to social activism and cultural activism, and we pushed the envelope on gender and race. We are still practicing those gifts today because we have no choice. So we are still doing all of those gifts, and you put those with the women that we write, and you got a complete character there.
- [36:50]
Danielle Robay
Tia, at the beginning of this conversation, you were talking about how you had to put yourself into these white characters, which, to quote, you, felt whack. I agree. When you think about readers who see themselves represented for the first time in your books, what are you hoping that they internalize about their own desirability and self worth?
- [37:12]
Tia Williams
That's a great question. I really just. I want through my characters, for women and whoever to feel possibility and to see what can be. I mean, I always say that I write for black women first and anyone else who comes to it, you know, love that. But it's really a gift for black women. I want everything to be larger than life. I want everything, every emotion to be big. I want the dialogue to really sparkle. I want. Even if they're in a Starbucks, I want it to be the most dazzling experience in a Starbucks. I want it to be an escapist fantasy gift. And yeah, through that escape, I want women to learn about what they like or what they want or what they can reach for or even in the careers that I give my. Because, like I said, I was really into Judith Krantz and Jackie Collins and Danielle Steele and these women in their books, you know, they were art gallerists, they were model agents, and you just never saw black women, you know, in those jobs. And also in a lot of our, you know, Gen X and boomer homes, we were taught, if you're gonna be anything, you need to be a lawyer or a doctor and get us out of here, you know, and the artistic professions weren't really encouraged. So all of my main female characters are artists in some regard, and most of the men are, too, because I want my readers to see that possibility as well and see a way to, you know, a way forward doing something they really love and not something they're, you know, cornered or pushed into.
- [38:57]
Danielle Robay
Well said. I love how you said that you write for black women and then whoever else. Kennedy and Beverly, who do you write for?
- [39:05]
Beverly Jenkins
I write for me, basically, because what did Toni Morrison say? If there's a story out there that is not being told and you want to read it, then you need to write it. And I grew up in the 50s. There were no books, and I read everything in my neighborhood library. There's nothing on the page for me. So when I was writing Night Song after work, I was writing a love story for myself.
- [39:30]
Danielle Robay
Kennedy, how about you?
- [39:32]
Kennedy Ryan
Yeah, I think I write first for black women. I do have. I have an indigenous main character. I have a first generation Mexican American main character. I have an amputee. I have. A lot of the experiences that I am writing are identities, communities, experiences that have been peripheralized. And in my work, I want to bring them to the center. You know, like, I'm constantly thinking about what is the experience that we haven't seen at the center of narrative, where those women haven't been told that they are worthy of a happily ever after, that they are worthy of outrages and unconditional love. And when I'm writing, there's a specific person in mind. So when I wrote this last book, I'm thinking about women, specifically black women who have bipolar disorder in this country. And what does that experience look like? And what does it look like when you're navigating something that lifelong and difficult to have a partner come alongside and stand unconditionally and stand no matter what, you know, so that's constantly, like, the ethos of what I'm doing in romance.
- [40:38]
Danielle Robay
Kennedy, when I read your books, I feel as if I'm getting a story I haven't read before, and I think the identity aspect is part of it because you are calling people in and it doesn't feel like a peripheral part of the story. It is the story, which is so cool. I think each of you have found such a unique approach to stories of romance. And I'm curious from, like, a writing perspective, when you are pitching to agents, how are you able to carve out a genre that could feel incredibly crowded and then get all these people to be on board? Because that seems like a whole nother layer. And Kennedy, you are breathing heavy.
- [41:22]
Kennedy Ryan
Am I? You took it.
- [41:24]
Danielle Robay
You took a breath. When I said that,
- [41:28]
Kennedy Ryan
I think it was the word pitch to ages. I was like, am I doing that scary phrase?
- [41:37]
Tia Williams
Yeah.
- [41:38]
Danielle Robay
Beverly wrote historical romance during a time that was like, really a time period that's overlooked in black history.
- [41:45]
Beverly Jenkins
Yeah. Everywhere.
- [41:48]
Danielle Robay
Tia, I think you. You blend sexy with serious in a way that it feels like I'm reading somebody's diary, you know. And Kennedy, you always touch on these social issues. You each have such a path that you've carved out.
- [42:01]
Tia Williams
Well, I can say that, you know, we don't have to pitch to agents anymore. But, you know, back in the day, it was extremely hard because I came along during this time that was like post the 90s black contemporary commercial fiction craze. Unfortunately, it ended up being a trend. And honestly, I really do think the only reason that my first novel was published is because it was right on the heels of a lot of magazine editor, you know, Sex and the City type fiction, Devil Wears Prada, you know, Plumb Sykes at Vogue wrote. Wrote one. You know, all the Vogue editors wrote fiction. Candice Bushnell was out here doing the Lord's work, and mine was a black one. And I heard that all the time. I mean, they even put stiletto on the COVID with a very light skinned foot to make everyone as comfortable as possible.
- [43:04]
Kennedy Ryan
I will never forget the light skinned foot.
- [43:07]
Tia Williams
Listen, the COVID model, which I had no, you know, control over, it was the lightest skin Puerto Rican you can imagine, which would be great if my character was an extremely light skinned Puerto Rican. But she was a black woman from Virginia like myself.
- [43:21]
Danielle Robay
Oh, man.
- [43:22]
Tia Williams
Anyway, but yeah, so, you know, I've come up against. And when I. When I was selling the perfect find in 2015, a year before, things changed quite drastically. And, you know, publishers were wanting diverse voices and wanting to expand their lists beyond, you know, white men and then white women. It was extremely tough because it was a novel about a fashion editor. And I had very prominent Editors would say things to me like, oh, well, I don't think it's very believable that a black woman would be a fashion editor on that level. Or can we change the industry from fashion to something that's more believable for a black character? To which, you know, it was a no, no, no, I'm not gonna change it. And you have to stick to your guns. And I think back to your question of, you know, how do you pitch something that doesn't feel believable or doesn't feel real or, you know, sort of pushing a genre that doesn't quite exist yet? You just have to have tremendous balls and stick to your guns if you know that what you have is good and if you know that what you have is real.
- [44:34]
Danielle Robay
Beverly, I'm so curious what it was like for you when you started publishing.
- [44:40]
Beverly Jenkins
It was interesting. And, you know, she's talking about, you know, them not knowing anything about who we are. That was part of the reason why I got so many rejection letters. They didn't have a box for it. Publishing and America in general, when you have a 19th century story with black people, it's supposed to be about slavery, right? So here I come with a love story starring an Oberlin educated school teacher, a black buffalo soldier in an all black town after the great exodus of 1879 on the plains of Kansas. None of that made sense to anybody because the letters were like, great riding, but. Great riding, but. Great riding, but. And the but had to do with what the hell are we supposed to do with this? I was blessed that Ellen Edwards, who is the executive editor at Avon at the time, saw the potential in the story. But, you know, it was the first book. You don't know what the hell you're doing with your first book. She said, beverly, I love your writing. I love the love scenes, but we need a story. I had like 800 pages of heat. I mean, if you open that story up, you know, you need to ask Bestow's gloves to hold onto that manuscript. And I was like, I gotta write a story. She's like, yeah, you gotta write a story. So it didn't make sense, like I said, to put all of that against a white majority background. So I went in and did the history a little bit deeper because I doubt it would have been published the way it was.
- [46:31]
Danielle Robay
Beautifully said. Beverly Kennedy. I watched in an interview in your latest book, Can't Get Enough, you said, it's the intersection of swoon and social commentary. And I am so curious about your relationship with Booktok, you're so popular on there. How much do you take into account what your fans ask for when it comes to the stories you're telling?
- [46:53]
Kennedy Ryan
I don't. I don't.
- [46:56]
Beverly Jenkins
I don't.
- [46:57]
Kennedy Ryan
I don't.
- [46:58]
Beverly Jenkins
Good for.
- [46:59]
Kennedy Ryan
You know, I. Like I said, like, I figure out what matters to me right now, and I'm real, you know, about the creative process in the sense that I feel like I'm going to tune in and I'm going to kind of dial inside and figure out what am I supposed to be writing right now. Like, when I wrote before I let go, I was wrestling with my own depression, and I wrote about depression, and I wrote about therapy, and I wrote about black men getting into therapy and healing and all of that. It was like, this is. I don't think of myself as just releasing books, and this sounds so elevated,
- [47:38]
Beverly Jenkins
like, oh, my God, you think you're so important.
- [47:41]
Kennedy Ryan
But I think of myself as not just releasing a book, but deploying a book. Like, I'm sending this book on a mission. And for me, the mission with each book is different. And with that book was all about mental health. It was all about therapy. It was all about depression, destigmatizing, getting help for that, specifically in the black community. Right. So for me, when I release that, that's what I'm supposed to be writing. And I write it when I hear from people like, oh, my gosh, I just handed that book to my husband who refused to go to therapy. Oh, my gosh. I called my insurance company to see if they will cover, you know, my therapy. Oh, my gosh. I was recovering from this, and then I read your book. Like, for me, that is the first metric of success.
- [48:20]
Danielle Robay
So.
- [48:20]
Kennedy Ryan
And I think the. The more successful you become, the harder it is to stay close to that. Like, then you're like, oh, did I list and did I sell and did I do this? So I'm constantly reminding myself that my first metric for success is that I achieved what when I dialed into that voice Inside, I said, was the mission for this book. When I see it played out in my interactions with my readers, that, for me, is the first metric of success.
- [48:46]
Danielle Robay
Kennedy, you are speaking to my soul.
- [48:50]
Beverly Jenkins
But, you know, that's why romance is so important, because that's what we do.
- [48:53]
Danielle Robay
Yes, you're right, Beverly.
- [48:54]
Beverly Jenkins
That's what we do. We connect, you know, we change lives. You go to sign ins and people say, well, my mom's in dialysis. Will you talk to her, please?
- [49:03]
Tia Williams
Yep.
- [49:04]
Beverly Jenkins
I'm like, sure. I had A guy this past summer wanted me to talk to his great grandmother. She's 104 years old. She loves my books. I was like, I will zoom with her. So I zoomed with this 104-year-old lady, and she loved the Blessing series, and her best character was Cletus the Hog. So, you know, I think it's why romance is so important, because of what we do for our readers lives and their hearts and their mental health and their relationship with other family members and the world and with themselves.
- [49:41]
Danielle Robay
I love that. Beverly, you know, you made me kind of wonder, what's the farthest you've gone with a fan interaction?
- [49:47]
Beverly Jenkins
I have a pajama party every two years with my readers. I don't do it anymore, but. And then Brenda Jackson has a cruise, and she's got, like, thousands of people on this boat, including her.
- [49:58]
Danielle Robay
Pastor Kennedy, I saw you nodding. I think you have one.
- [50:04]
Kennedy Ryan
Yeah, I have a lot. I mean, I. My therapist is constantly telling me to get off social media. She's constantly like, get off. Because sometimes it's a lot, you know, But I love the interaction with my readers, and, like, their. Obviously, at this stage, you can't be close to all your readers, you know, but there's, like, a core of readers who I interact with on a very consistent basis, and we go pretty deep. Like, they know I'm a pk, like, preacher's kid, pastor's kid. You know, my parents are pastors, so they know that my faith is a big part of my life. I have readers who are like, Ms. Kennedy, you know, they come in my DMs, and they're like, I got a job interview tomorrow. Will you pray for me? Like, I have, like, it is a whole kind of like, ongoing thing, and it's not just like, will you pray for me? But they'll come in and, you know, ask for advice, and, you know, they'll come on. I got a tattoo, you know, based on your book, you know, and I'm like, oh, that's so cool. You know, so, you know, I, I it. To me, it's fueling, you know, it's very fueling.
- [51:08]
Danielle Robay
You know, you've impacted someone when they put a tattoo inspired by one of your characters or something. Like their world has entered yours at that point.
- [51:17]
Kennedy Ryan
Yeah, there's nothing like that.
- [51:18]
Danielle Robay
Tia, tell me about yours. Cause your books really dig deep. Like, I think you play at the edge of romance. Almost like. One of my favorites is Seven Days in June, and that deals with a lot of topics. I know you're hitting people in their hearts.
- [51:34]
Tia Williams
Yeah, I have a really sort of tight knit migraine community among my readership because my main character in Seven Days in June, Eva, lives with chronic migraine, as do I, since I was a little girl. And it's not really a represented disease. It's an invisible disease. It's completely, you know, debilitating. But you look, quote, unquote normal, you know, whatever normal looks like. People have a hard time processing that your pain is real, especially when everybody gets a headache here and there, when you need some coffee or you're hungover. So it's hard to understand how isolating that feeling is. You feel like an alien. And so I think for readers who have migraine to see themselves in a sexy love story of all things. Like one of the last things you feel like doing when you're in pain is having sex. So, you know, seeing the possibilities of living with this, you know, chronic pain, but also being, you know, a fully fledged passionate person, fully embodied person is really special to migraineurs. And then I also have to say I was just invited to a wedding which blew my mind.
- [52:50]
Danielle Robay
Did you go?
- [52:51]
Tia Williams
I didn't go because I couldn't go, but I would have gone. She was getting married in Vegas and so she was like, I'm shooting my shot, you know, will you come? I could not go, but I sent her a bunch of books and a gift and you know. Yeah, but I thought that was just, just completely fabulous.
- [53:08]
Danielle Robay
That is so fabulous.
- [53:10]
Beverly Jenkins
Love it.
- [53:16]
Danielle Robay
When you're planning a trip, it helps to have a credit card that rewards you no matter where you like to book. That's the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. What makes a difference is how flexible it is. You can earn rewards where you like to book travel. If you like going straight to the airline or hunting down a deal on a hotel site, this card is designed to keep rewarding you. Here's how the points stack up. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. So picture booking that hotel in the neighborhood you've always wanted to stay in, that's earning points. Grabbing flights for a last minute getaway. That's earning. Sitting down for that first dinner when you land, still earning. Even the everyday stuff between trips can help toward your next journey. The Autograph Journey card from Wells Fargo helps turn the way you already travel, eat and explore into rewards. Learn more@wells fargo.com autographjourney terms apply. Recently I went on a trip to Panama with my dad, and we go on a trip every single year together. This year, I had so much fun. We drank Panamanian coffee every morning. He took me on a little speedboat to the jungle, and I got to see Titi monkeys. We ate absolutely delicious food. I dragged him to all the best restaurants, and we always pick a book to read together set in the city we're visiting. So we picked a Panamanian thriller. And it was twisty. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now, if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb Co host network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything. Okay. Like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning you extra cash. Find a co host@airbnb.com host. I'm partnering with Simple Mills and I have now found a new go to snack. When I'm reading Simple Mills Almond Flour crackers, I thought I'd review them book style because these crackers deserve it. It. Let's start with the premise. A snack that doesn't leave you feeling weighed down. Made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Nutrient dense ingredients your body can use with protein, vitamins and fiber, not just empty carbs. That's a solid foundation and just like a good premise, needs great writing. Simple Mills Almond flour crackers also taste amazing. Classic flavors like fine ground sea salt. A crunchy texture and a light finish that leaves you feeling uplifted and energized. It's like a taste of sunshine in every bite. For a change in genre, try Pop'.
- [56:00]
Tia Williams
Ems.
- [56:01]
Danielle Robay
Cheesy, airy and poppable crackers with an unexpected twist. They're packed with veggies. Here's my verdict. Simple Mills crackers are a snack staple you'll always want on your shelf. Okay, I've hit my metaphor quota for the year, but these crackers are worth it. Find Simple Mills at your grocery store.
- [56:18]
Beverly Jenkins
Segregation in the day, Integration at night.
- [56:23]
Narrator/Promoter
When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules.
- [56:28]
Beverly Jenkins
We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world.
- [56:34]
Narrator/Promoter
Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.
- [56:41]
Kennedy Ryan
You saw the kkk.
- [56:43]
Beverly Jenkins
Yeah, they was dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take Him away from here.
- [56:51]
Tia Williams
Charlie was an example of power.
- [56:55]
Danielle Robay
They had to crush him.
- [56:58]
Narrator/Promoter
From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch and visit Myrtle beach comes Charlie's place, a story that was nearly lost to time until now. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Podcast.
- [57:17]
Beverly Jenkins
It's the new me and it's the old them. Everybody's on their journey and your journey is different to theirs. This woman's history Month. The podcast if you knew better with Amber Grimes spotlights women who turn missteps into momentum and lessons into power.
- [57:31]
Kennedy Ryan
I think coming out of where I
- [57:32]
Tia Williams
came from, I'm from the Bronx.
- [57:33]
Kennedy Ryan
I think I grew up really poor. I didn't know that then. Cuz I very much use my creativity me to romanticize life. And I'm like, my mom did a really good job of like, you step back and you're like, whoa, we. I don't know how we made it. So a lot of my life was like built out of like survival to get to the next place. Like my drive, my like tunnel vision of like, I gotta be better, I gotta achieve this was off the strengths
- [58:00]
Tia Williams
of like, I want to make a
- [58:01]
Kennedy Ryan
better life for us.
- [58:02]
Beverly Jenkins
If you knew better brings real talk from women who've lived it, unpacking, career pivots, relationship lessons, and the mindset shifts that changed everything. Listen to if you knew better with Amber grimes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [58:19]
Danielle Robay
You know, you guys seem so generous with your knowledge and your learnings. I'm curious, for emerging romance writers, what's one piece of advice that actually matters? And then what's one piece of advice that you think is outdated?
- [58:33]
Beverly Jenkins
Finish the book. We spend a lot of time talking about the book. Finish the book and then learn as much as you can about the writing as a business because there are people out here who will steal your dreams because that's their. They think that's their job. So yeah, those are my two little ones.
- [58:57]
Danielle Robay
Well said. Beverly Kennedy, how about you?
- [59:00]
Kennedy Ryan
Yeah, I would say for me what is outdated? And for some people, I wouldn't say outdated, but not fits. One size fits all is right every day. I don't, I don't write every day, you know, and actually I write very little. What I mean by that is like the creative process for me is usually like a lot. I mentioned you. My background is journalism. I will spend three, three months just interviewing people and reading the books they tell me I should read and listening to the podcast. And, like, literally, I would spend three, four months just doing that, and then I'm like, oh, God, now I have to write the book. You know, but for me, that is writing. You know, I have, like. I'm in some of these groups, like, where they're like, you know, how. What's your word count for the day? At 5,000 words. What about you, Kennedy? And I'm like, I have no words. But I did three hours on zoom interviewing, and I read that, you know, so for me, me, that is writing. I think the real takeaway from that is figure out what works best for you. Like, no one size, whatever. Somebody tells you, this is the thing that you do that works for everybody. It's usually, you know, for there's somebody, it's not gonna fit. And I think the big advice, I think, is it kind of goes back to what Ms. Bev was talking about was craft. Because I feel like there is just, like, a deficit right now of, like, especially, like. Like a deficit of. Of craft. Like a deficit of valuing craft. Dig into your craft. But also business. Going indie taught me how to be a businesswoman, taught me how to be a creative who is running a business. And I brought that same mentality when I came back in traditional publishing. I brought that with me. You know, I don't. I don't work for anyone. I don't have a boss. I have partners. You know, we work together. We have a common goal, which is to sell this book. You have a stake. I have a stake. You have knowledge. I have knowledge. You understand something about what you do. I understand my audience. I understand black women. I understand who this book is written for. That has to inform our strategy, you know, so for me, it's like, learn the business. Learn how. Because when you step into a lot of. Especially us as black women, generally black authors, we're not getting the same promotional budgets. We're not getting the same strategy. We're not getting the same level of support. You need to understand, how does this. How is this gonna succeed? What are the gaps I have to step into? Because there are gaps, you know, So I. That's what I would say is learn the craft and learn the business.
- [61:30]
Danielle Robay
Well said, Tia. I saw you nodding. I'm so curious what your answer is to this question.
- [61:36]
Tia Williams
So I really, you know, I love an mfa. I love, you know, creative writing, higher education, all of that. I also really love just reading everything.
- [61:53]
Danielle Robay
Everything.
- [61:54]
Tia Williams
The back of cereal boxes, everything. Like, just understand the way language moves. Understand, you know, when I was a Kid I was so obsessed with Stephen King, I would just write in longhand his paragraphs just to understand the architecture of, like, how a story flows. You know, go back to the basics. Like, understand the architecture of a sentence, the architecture of a story, how plot works. There are a million ways to get to that. Happily ever after.
- [62:29]
Danielle Robay
Yes.
- [62:30]
Tia Williams
And it just behooves you to learn, really the craft. And you don't have to go to school for it, but you do have
- [62:37]
Danielle Robay
to educate yourself well in that vein. Usually I ask people what's on their bedside table, but I have three absolute lovers of language here, so I'm gonna ask you a different question, which is what is the last line or scene that took your breath away? And who wrote it?
- [62:57]
Beverly Jenkins
Jesus, I don't know.
- [62:59]
Danielle Robay
Oh, my God, Beverly, I know you've read Some Heat recently that took your breath away.
- [63:06]
Beverly Jenkins
I have a book club on Facebook and we do my books. And so we've started over again and we're doing them in print order.
- [63:17]
Danielle Robay
That's cool.
- [63:18]
Beverly Jenkins
So I've been taking out some of the old historicals and reading them and stuff. And in through the Storm, which is the book that we're going to do next month, the trope is a lot of tropes, but it's also a marriage of convenience. And Raymond, who is the hero, has this love hate thing for the woman that he has married. But he walks in on her one night on the way to his mistress's birthday party. And so it gets to the point where he winds up spending the night, and as he's leaving that next morning suit all wrinkled and stuff from being on the floor and, you know, and all of that. And he's outside with his brothers who are looking at him like, where'd you sleep last night? You. You look like you slept in a garbage bin. And she walks out, she's got a wrapper on, she walks out onto the porch and she says, ray, you forgot your watch and tell your mistress I'm sorry that I made you miss her birthday party. And she just sashays her little ass home back in the house. And her brothers were like, oh, man, for me, I love that seed.
- [64:31]
Kennedy Ryan
I didn't know where it was going. Beverly.
- [64:36]
Danielle Robay
Oh, my God, what a good one.
- [64:38]
Beverly Jenkins
Through the Storm, people. Through the storm. Grab a copy,
- [64:43]
Danielle Robay
I think, because we're on audio. Tia and Kennedy. Kennedy and I were trying not to
- [64:47]
Kennedy Ryan
laugh too hard, but that was so good.
- [64:51]
Beverly Jenkins
I love it.
- [64:54]
Tia Williams
Oh, amazing.
- [64:56]
Danielle Robay
Tia and Kennedy, if you have one, I'd love to hear. And if it's Too hard. I have a different question I can ask you.
- [65:01]
Kennedy Ryan
I have a recommendation. Like, in general, I think everybody's. Well, a lot of us have been obsessed with heated rivalry. I had read those books years ago, so I loved them, but. So I have, like, an MM rec. You know, queer story. Rec. Queer series. There is an author named Gregory Ash. I love procedural. So this series is kind of like true detective, but make it queer. And Gregory Ashe, she writes this couple, Hazard and Somerset, and they have, like, 16 books. So it's not like a happily ever after. It's like each book you're building a relationship over the course of, like, 16 books, you know, so eventually they get married, eventually they adopt kids. It's this whole world. And there's a serial killer, the keeper of bees, and one of them is afraid for the other, and they go out under the stars, and they. It's cold. And they pull this blanket around each other. And there's just this whole metaphor that Gregory builds using constellations and interstellar language. And it's cosmic shifts, and it's just. It's just gorgeous. Like, the language is gorgeous. The relationship is beautiful. And you feel like, you know, these characters over the course of, like, 16 novels. So it's one of my favorite series. It's Gregory Ash, and it's Hazard and Somerset.
- [66:22]
Danielle Robay
Amazing.
- [66:23]
Tia Williams
Okay, so this is the arc of Walter Mosley's new book. It's called A Romance in Black. It's, you know, obviously Walter Mosley detective God, right? Like detective fiction God. But there's a love story in it that is some of the most beautiful romance, frankly, writing that I have read in ages. The main character, Galen, is the focus of the book, but it starts off with how his parents met and fell in love in the 90s. And it's just soaring, beautiful, but really simple language. And sometimes I find as. As a romance writer, that I find inspiration in these places that are outside of our genre.
- [67:10]
Danielle Robay
You know, Beverly, earlier when you said dragons, I was thinking, does Beverly Jenkins read Fourth Wing?
- [67:15]
Beverly Jenkins
I did. Yeah, I did. I read it. I really loved the first book. I have not had a chance to read anything after that. But I'm a big fantasy reader. I don't read a lot of romance these days. I read a lot of fantasy, though. I have a dragon book in me also, and I have pitched it to my agent, and she loves it. So I just don't know when mama's gonna have the time to do it,
- [67:41]
Kennedy Ryan
you know, that's romantasy from Beverly Jenkins. Would be amazing.
- [67:47]
Beverly Jenkins
You know, so I got a couple things in the pipeline right now, but I'd love to do my dragons, because I want to see a black woman riding a dragon. And I know that there have been a few people who have done that, but. But, you know, I'd like to do my own spin on it.
- [68:04]
Danielle Robay
What are you all so obsessed with right now that you could just write a book about it?
- [68:08]
Kennedy Ryan
I don't know that I'm as obsessed. Obsessed enough, like, to write a book about it, but, like, my. The obsession I'm just coming off of, of course, is heated rivalry. Like, it was at. It was at a really dangerous place. It was. It was at a dangerous place. Like, we're talking about ordering the merch. I mean, I'm a loon. That's what our fandom is. We're called loons. I'm in the lunacy. So all of it, like, think pieces, the whole thing. So that's what I was obsessed with. But I was telling Tia, now I'm obsessed with industry, which is I love good television. Like, elevated prestige television. I love it, love it, love it. And so I'm obsessed with industry.
- [68:50]
Danielle Robay
Me too. Tia, what are you so obsessed with? You could write a book about it.
- [68:54]
Tia Williams
So I am also in love with industry, but I'm really, really. I've gone down a rabbit hole of nostalgia with a love story about JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette.
- [69:07]
Danielle Robay
Ooh.
- [69:07]
Tia Williams
And not just because I grew up in a Kennedy house, but I was there. Like, that was my era in New York. And, you know, when I worked at Elle, I was a few floors under George magazine, and. And so a John F. Kennedy Jr. Sighting was, like, everything. And I actually saw him the day before he died on the elevator, which is a whole other story. But it's just giving me so much New York in the 90s vibes. Like, it's the intersection of fashion and magazine and media and celebrity and the nightlife. And it's just really bringing me back to a really exciting, precious time.
- [69:45]
Danielle Robay
Yeah.
- [69:46]
Beverly Jenkins
I'm, you know, an entirely different kind of thing. I'm obsessed with where the hell is spring? So I can get outside and play in the dirt. You know, I want to see how my roses are doing. I want to see how my lilies, whether the squirrel has. I love it. Bulbs out of the box. You know, so I'm an old lady. You know, I'm a simple girl. So, you know, those are the things that rock my world right now.
- [70:18]
Danielle Robay
So I don't know when I'm gonna Have you three back in the same room. So I wanna do the mother of all romance pitches with the three of you together. We're gonna write a romance novel together. I'll ask you a question, and then each of you builds a new part of the story. Okay?
- [70:36]
Beverly Jenkins
Okay.
- [70:37]
Kennedy Ryan
I'm so bad at this.
- [70:39]
Danielle Robay
I love it.
- [70:39]
Kennedy Ryan
Okay, go, go.
- [70:42]
Danielle Robay
So, Beverly, I want to start with you. What era, time, period, setting?
- [70:47]
Beverly Jenkins
Since they do contemporaries, let's do contemporaries so they won't be scared. Okay.
- [70:55]
Tia Williams
Thank you, Ms. Bev.
- [70:57]
Beverly Jenkins
Yeah. Present day, and we are in Harlem. How's that, Tio?
- [71:02]
Danielle Robay
What's the female main character's job or role?
- [71:07]
Tia Williams
Portrait painter.
- [71:09]
Danielle Robay
Kennedy, this is your expertise. What's our meet cute?
- [71:13]
Kennedy Ryan
Okay. She is a portrait painter, and a client wants her to paint her son for his birthday. And so their meet cute is their first session where he's sitting for her.
- [71:28]
Tia Williams
Ooh, I love it.
- [71:31]
Danielle Robay
Very Titanic. I love it. Beverly.
- [71:36]
Beverly Jenkins
Yes?
- [71:37]
Danielle Robay
What is the job of our love interest? What does he do?
- [71:40]
Beverly Jenkins
Hmm. If it was the 40s, we could say he was a gentleman gangster. I said we could do that. We'll put it in the 30s. And he's a gentleman gangster.
- [71:53]
Kennedy Ryan
I thought we were present day.
- [71:55]
Beverly Jenkins
Oh, that's right. We did say president. Well, see, I'm a. I'm a pantser. Stuff changes.
- [72:01]
Kennedy Ryan
We're in the 30s now.
- [72:04]
Danielle Robay
We're in the 30s. Tia, what's the romance trope that you want to subvert and play with?
- [72:10]
Tia Williams
Oh, okay. So grumpy sunshine. People always, for some reason, they always think that the woman has to be sunshine and the man has to be grumpy. So let's have the woman, the painter, be really grumpy and really precious about work and very serious. Nothing's funny about this. No funny business. No, you know, I'm super professional. Keep it in your pants. I don't do nudes. And maybe the gangster guy getting his portrait. Yes, his mom gifted him this, but he is immediately in love with her and decides to request a nude portrait. And he's being very cheeky about it, you know, almost like, daring her, like, oh, why are you so uptight? You know what? It's the human body. Like, it's. I'm just a client. I'm just, you know, are you chicken? And she's like, no, I can do this. And so she tries. You know, she paints his portrait and tries to keep a straight face the whole time. And we see what happens.
- [73:35]
Danielle Robay
Kennedy, what's our conflict? What's keeping them apart?
- [73:39]
Kennedy Ryan
What's keeping them apart? Is that she is a married woman. She's a married woman. But what he doesn't know is that it's a lavender marriage. We're in the 30s right in Harlem. It's a lavender. Lavender marriage.
- [73:54]
Beverly Jenkins
What does that mean?
- [73:56]
Kennedy Ryan
That is when. It's when a queer person is in a marriage, basically for protection. You know, it's like, almost like a beard.
- [74:03]
Beverly Jenkins
Okay.
- [74:04]
Kennedy Ryan
Yeah. So it's a lavender marriage, but it's not something that she can leave easily. And also, the man that she's in the lavender marriage with is his arch enemy. So he's also a gangster. He's a queer gangster. Oh, my God. Lavender marriage with a portrait painter. And his arch nemesis is our sunshine gangster. So that's our. There we go.
- [74:31]
Danielle Robay
Oh, my God. Okay, we are almost there. Beverly, what's our climax? Where do they profess their love to one another?
- [74:41]
Beverly Jenkins
Oh, my God. Okay, so we got these two men are main hero's brother.
- [74:49]
Danielle Robay
Okay.
- [74:50]
Beverly Jenkins
Is also gay.
- [74:51]
Kennedy Ryan
Oh, I love this.
- [74:53]
Beverly Jenkins
He hooks them two up. So that she can step out of that marriage. They can do their thing as roommates or cousins.
- [75:10]
Danielle Robay
Yes.
- [75:12]
Beverly Jenkins
And she can step into the relationship with our sunshine gambler. All is well. We got our hea.
- [75:20]
Kennedy Ryan
We got two heas.
- [75:21]
Beverly Jenkins
Two heas.
- [75:22]
Danielle Robay
Yeah.
- [75:23]
Beverly Jenkins
Wow. The end.
- [75:25]
Danielle Robay
And.
- [75:26]
Tia Williams
But also, the gangster can launder his money by opening up a portrait studio for his woman.
- [75:34]
Beverly Jenkins
There you go.
- [75:34]
Danielle Robay
Yes. Yeah.
- [75:35]
Kennedy Ryan
There you go.
- [75:36]
Danielle Robay
Yes. Now that is a happily ever, AKA apa. Yay.
- [75:44]
Beverly Jenkins
We did it. We did it.
- [75:45]
Danielle Robay
Do you think it's a bestseller? I think we have a shot, guys. I do. I do.
- [75:50]
Kennedy Ryan
I love it.
- [75:50]
Beverly Jenkins
I think we own. And we. We own that. That idea. So nobody who's listening to this can write that story. I'm sorry.
- [75:58]
Danielle Robay
Yeah. And Kennedy's gonna get us the COVID that we want.
- [76:00]
Kennedy Ryan
Yes.
- [76:01]
Danielle Robay
Yes.
- [76:01]
Kennedy Ryan
That I could do. That I could do.
- [76:03]
Danielle Robay
I'm wanting a Kennedy Tia Beverly tour. I don't know if that's possible. Maybe this is the beginning of something great. But I think I so appreciate all of your time. This was so fun.
- [76:13]
Beverly Jenkins
A thanks for having us.
- [76:14]
Tia Williams
Thank you for having us.
- [76:15]
Beverly Jenkins
I had a good time.
- [76:17]
Tia Williams
The best.
- [76:21]
Danielle Robay
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From probiotics to multivitamins to Life Stage formulas, Garden of Life emphasizes traceability, third party certifications and carefully developed formulas. Their organic multivitamins are made from whole foods and their doctor formulated Probiotics are created with expert input. If you want to learn more or see which product might fit into your daily routine, shop now on Amazon. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. And if you want a little bit more from us, come hang with us on socials. We're at Reese's Book Club on Instagram serving up books, vibes and behind the scenes scenes Magic. And I'm Danielle Robay. R O B A Y Come say hi and DM me. And if you want to go 90s on us, call us. Okay, our phone line is open, so call now at 1-501291-3379. That's 1-501291-3379. Share your literary hot takes, book recommendations, questions about the monthly pick or let us know what you think about the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might just hear yourself in our next episode. So don't be shy, give us a ring. And of course, make sure to follow Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your shows. Until then, see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of hello Sunshine and iheart Podcast Cast. It's executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me, Danielle Roubaix. Production is by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Maddie Foley, Brittany Martinez, Sarah Schleed. Our production assistant is Avery Loftus. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter are the executive producers for Acast Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa, Kristin Perla and Ashley Rapoport are associate producers for Reese's Book Club. Ali Perry and Lauren Hanson are the executive producers for iHeart podcasts. The Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo is built for travel. You can earn rewards wherever you book, your favorite hotel site your go to airline and more. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. Whether it's a big vacation or a quick getaway from booking your stay to that first meal, when you arrive, you're turning your trips into rewards with the Autograph Journey card from Wells Fargo. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton. We spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton not just to read the story, but to feel it. The fabric of our lives. Learn more@thefabricofourlives.com I'm partnering with Simple Mills and I have now found a new Go to Reading Simple Mills Almond Flour Crackers. Think of this as a quick book style review because these crackers deserve it. The premise? A snack that feels light, not heavy. Made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds nutrient dense ingredients your body can use, not empty carbs and the taste Crunchy, classic flavors that leave you feeling energized. For a good plot twist, try Pop Ems Cheesy, airy, Poppable crackers packed with veggies. Final Verdict these are a shelf staple. Find simple meals at your grocery store. This is the biggest night in Podcasting. The countdown is on to our 2026 I Heart Podcast Awards. Live from south by Southwest March 16th,
- [82:23]
Tia Williams
we'll honor the very best in podcasting
- [82:25]
Danielle Robay
from the past year and celebrate the most innovative, talented creators in the industry. It's truly a who's who of the podcasting world. Creativity, knowledge and passion will all be on full display. And the winner of the iheart podcast award is. See all the nominees now@iheart.com podcast awards
- [82:43]
Tia Williams
Audible is a proud sponsor of the
- [82:45]
Beverly Jenkins
Audible Audible Audio Pioneer Award. Explore the best selection of audiobooks, podcasts
- [82:50]
Danielle Robay
and originals all in one easy app.
- [82:52]
Tia Williams
Audible.
- [82:53]
Danielle Robay
There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free trial@audible.com
- [83:00]
Narrator/Promoter
when segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules.
- [83:06]
Beverly Jenkins
Segregation in the day, integration at night. It was like stepping in another world.
- [83:12]
Narrator/Promoter
Was he a businessman? A criminal? A hero?
- [83:15]
Tia Williams
Charlie was an example of power.
- [83:18]
Danielle Robay
They had to crush him.
- [83:20]
Narrator/Promoter
Charlie's Place from Atlas Obscura and visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [83:29]
Danielle Robay
This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed human.