Lets Chat Infidelity

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary: "Let's Chat Infidelity"

Podcast: Books With Your Besties
Hosts: Emily and Ashley
Date: October 24, 2025
Episode Theme: Exploring Infidelity in Fiction and Real Life

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Overview

This episode centers on B.A. Paris’s thriller The Breakdown (and its film adaptation, Blackwater Lane), using the novel’s central affair to launch into a candid, often humorous, sometimes sobering discussion of infidelity—both within fiction and real-world cases. Emily and Ashley unpack gaslighting, emotional abuse, societal and cultural attitudes toward affairs, and how fiction can mirror the darkest corners of actual human behavior.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Book & Movie: Entertainment and Psychological Themes

• The hosts reminisce about their own history with the book—and watching the movie together in two sittings (“Did we fall asleep?” “Of course.” (01:03)).
• Emily notes, “the book was way better, of course, because the book is always better.” (01:12)
• The plot’s core: a woman whose husband has an affair with her best friend, leading to murder and manipulation.

2. Unpacking the Affair’s Role in the Narrative

• Ashley reflects on the plot’s extremity: “He murdered someone just because she knew he was having an affair. So, like, the lengths men will go to—to cover up having an affair...” (01:50)
• Emily ponders the realness: “It’s not unrealistic because people do this... It’s absolutely bizarre to me.” (02:15)
• Both are baffled by betrayals so close to home, Ashley jokes: “Worst case scenario, if I’m in a room alone with your husband, I might fight him.” (02:40)

3. Gaslighting, Mental Illness, and Manipulation

• Gaslighting is central to both the book and their discussion (03:07–06:51).
• Emily dives into critical reader reviews doubting the believability of the husband’s extreme, manipulative tactics: “But that is how emotional abuse works. They really, really trick your mind into thinking that you are misperceiving things.” (03:53)
• Ashley highlights the slow build of manipulation, referencing how the husband plants seeds of doubt to exacerbate the protagonist’s insecurity due to her mother’s Alzheimer’s. (04:09)
• Emily introduces the concept of “informational social influence or conformity”: “We conform to group pressures… because somebody else… must be right.” (05:15)

4. Gaslighting — Terminology and Cultural Shift

• The hosts discuss how the term “gaslighting” has become mainstream and sometimes overused:
  • Ashley: “I do feel like it’s a term that’s overused now. But looking back in 2017, gaslighting, for me at least, wasn’t a term… that's what this book is about.” (06:13–06:44)
  • Emily credits B.A. Paris as “ahead of her time.” (06:44)

5. Real World Perspective on Affairs

• Both hosts stress their personal aversion to infidelity:
  • Emily: “I don’t understand personally affairs… I just cannot fathom myself ever being involved in something like that.” (07:28)
  • Ashley: “I completely agree with you. And I think in my closer circle I haven’t experienced a lot of infidelity or people cheating because I surround myself with people who don’t make that choice.” (08:08)
• The conversation extends to how cultural and professional environments shape people’s behaviors and boundaries regarding infidelity, including how surrounding yourself with certain friends or work cultures can make certain choices seem more (or less) acceptable. (08:37–10:25)
• Emily: “I just want to protect my marriage... we’re not even going to entertain much conversation with another man... I sound crazy... but I... think affairs are really, really dangerous...” (10:25)

6. Linking Fiction to True Crime: Chris Watts, Dirty John, and Scott Peterson

• Pivot to real-life cases—Chris Watts and “Dirty John”—as extreme but illustrative examples of where infidelity, manipulation, and deception can lead.
  • Emily: “If you are going to experience violence, like, having an affair is a good way to test out if your partner might become violent or somebody might become violent.” (12:06)
• In both straightforward and nuanced ways, the hosts compare the mechanisms in the fiction they read to shocking true crime stories.
• Ashley points out, “sometimes it’s just the people that get caught… this is happening one degree less every... day in the lives of women.” (13:08)

7. The Emotional Toll: Trauma, Deception, Respect, and Accountability

• Both distinguish the unique pain and betrayal of an affair from the experience of divorce:
  • Emily: “I just think it’s so fundamentally different divorce than an affair. I think an affair has so much deception and disrespect in it...” (13:36)
  • Ashley: “For me… it would be that you planned your life around us in a way to lie to me in such a horrific way 10 times. Like, it’s the deception.” (15:12)
• They hammer home their stance that accountability and respect are non-negotiable, with Emily saying she “couldn’t imagine ever trusting somebody who could do that level of deception to me again.” (14:25)

8. Friendship & Boundaries: Blame Beyond the Spouse

• Emily: “The best friend is absolutely just as much at fault here... you’re deceiving your best friend and having an affair with someone else’s husband.” (15:43)
• Ashley: “If I just had a friend who I knew was talking to a married man, I would be like, well, that’s a deal breaker. We are not friends anymore...” (16:16)

9. Isolation as a Tool of Control

• The hosts discuss how both psychological abuse and infidelity often involve isolating the victim from their support system, referencing how the protagonist is manipulated to have “nobody else in her life who was involved.” (16:27–17:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ashley (on murder and infidelity):
  “The lengths men will go to—to cover up having an affair instead of just telling their wives, like, hey, I’m a piece of shit and I’ve been cheating on you with your best friend, but instead I’m Gonna murder this woman that found out about it.” (01:50)
• Emily (on gaslighting):
  “That is how emotional abuse works. They really, really trick your mind into thinking that you are misperceiving things.” (03:53)
• Ashley (on friendship boundaries):
  “If I just had a friend who I knew was talking to a married man, I would be like, well, that’s a deal breaker. We are not friends anymore because that’s a line we don’t cross.” (16:16)
• Emily (on trust after deception):
  “There is no recovery for us with that. Because I can’t imagine ever trusting somebody who could do that level of deception to me again.” (14:25)
• Ashley (on the harm of dishonesty):
  “...sometimes it’s just the people that get caught. And just because these are the most extreme examples doesn’t mean that this is happening one degree less every single fucking day in the lives of women.” (13:08)
• Emily (closing the loop):
  “If you’re having an affair, fucking stop.” (23:30)
• Ashley (on self-servitude):
  “...the way we’re willing to hurt other people to serve ourselves in some weird, selfish way.” (24:27)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:28 – Full spoilers warning; setup of the book’s affair/infidelity premise.
• 01:50 – “He murdered someone just because she knew he was having an affair...” (Ashley)
• 03:07–06:51 – Deep dive into gaslighting, manipulation, and social conformity.
• 10:25–11:23 – Discussing professional environments and the “slippery slope” into infidelity.
• 12:06–13:36 – Linking fiction to true crime (Chris Watts, Dirty John), the escalation of deceit.
• 13:36–15:12 – The lasting trauma and distinction between divorce and betrayal via affair.
• 15:43–16:16 – Assigning responsibility to both parties in the affair, not just the married individual.
• 16:27–17:20 – Isolation as a form of control/manipulation.
• 18:02–21:21 – Recap and analysis of the Chris Watts case and its chilling parallels to fiction; explanation of real-world stakes.
• 23:30 – Emily’s blunt directive: “If you’re having an affair, fucking stop.”
• 24:34–25:34 – Final notes on accountability and human decency; wrap-up.

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Final Thoughts & Tone

True to their style, Emily and Ashley’s conversation is a blend of irreverent wit, heartfelt conviction, and genuine curiosity about human behavior. They balance levity and gravity, moving easily from joking about “falling asleep during the movie” to powerful reflections on the destruction caused by deception and betrayal—both real and fictional. Their candor, layered with 23 years of best-friend banter, ensures that even heavy subjects remain engaging and deeply relatable.

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Next Episode Preview:
Turn of the Key by Ruth Ware – “Go read that and be ready for in two weeks.” (25:29)

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For behind-the-scenes, bonus content, and book picks, listeners are directed to the podcast’s Patreon page.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Emily.

[B]

I'm Ashley.

[A]

And this is books with your besties. Hi. Hi. Hello, besties. Today we're going to talk about the Breakdown by BA Paris. You know, we are lovers of BA Paris behind closed doors, absolute fave. But I have enjoyed a lot of her books and the Breakdown is a really fun one. And the Breakdown was also made into a movie. So if you have not read the Breakdown, please go read it, then go watch the movie, then come back and listen this episode.

[B]

We watched the movie together when we were. Was that when we were first deciding to launch the podcast and gave it our best try and then eliminated all of that content and started over?

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Watching that movie was like our reward for all of our hard work.

[A]

Yes. We did so many hours of work of trash.

[B]

It wasn't trash, but it wasn't good enough for what we wanted to give our besties.

[A]

Right? And they're like, this is the best, though. This is what you want to give us. That's what everyone's thinking right now.

[B]

Did we have to watch it in two sittings? Did we fall asleep or did we watch the whole thing?

[A]

Yeah, we watched it in two sittings. Of course.

[B]

Of course. I'm like, I feel like we fell asleep. And Dermot Mulroney, that's his name, right? Was he the actor? I like him so much.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it was a pretty good movie. The book was way better, of course, because the book is always better.

[B]

Always. But I thought it was. It's entertaining. It's a fun, fast paced, shortish movie.

[A]

Totally entertaining. Okay, here we go. Full spoilers.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And of course, we're not recapping these books because you read it. If you're listening, you read it. And if you didn't, then we don't know you're doing here. But we love it. Thanks for being here. And you can just be confused by the whole conversation, but it's a domestic thriller that really ultimately is about her husband having an affair with her best friend. And literally everything that happens is because of this affair.

[B]

It was alarming to me. So I. I read it with my ears again, preparing for this, because, you know, I have a hard time remembering what happens in books. And when it boiled down to it, he murdered someone just because she knew he was having an affair. So, like, the lengths men will go to. To. To cover up having an affair instead of just telling their wives, like, hey, I'm a piece of shit and I've been cheating on you with your best friend, but instead I'm Gonna murder this woman that found out about it.

[A]

And what kind of best friend does that? But here's the thing, is it's not unrealistic because people do this. People have affairs with their wife's sister or their, you know, husband's best friend. Like, it's absolutely bizarre to me that you would even consider looking at somebody in your life who's close in your life like that and think it might be a good idea for me to sleep with them.

[B]

The worst case. Worst case scenario, if I'm in a room alone with your husband, I might fight him. I might be like, hey, Steve, do you want to fight? Emily told me something, but there's never a scenario in which I would ever think of doing anything romantic. I might hit him.

[A]

Yeah, no, nothing romantic. Ben and I, you know, just. We'd get out all kinds of games, start drinking, turn on a lot of music.

[B]

You. I want you guys to be alone. I'm like, I'm gonna go to bed. God, you guys keep partying. I can't do this. Like, please, Emily, stay up with him.

[A]

But it's very interesting. Anyway, this opens a whole can of worms. I feel like we have some themes to talk about here. Mental illness and gaslighting, a big theme here. And I think, you know, importantly, considering kind of the way that things went and it's how believable it all is or not. So I went on Goodreads to read some reviews about this before this episode. The positive reviews, of course, I agreed and because I really liked it. And then the. The negative reviews were like, it's so ridiculous and unbelievable. For example, when he replaces all of her appliances. He replaces all of her appliances. And then they. They all work. And they weren't working. Something like that. Right. I can't remember the exact. What was happening with the appliances, but they're like, she would notice. You can't just do that and have someone not notice. And how would he get the workers into the home to install them when she barely ever left the house? But I'm like, but that is how emotional abuse works. They really, really trick your mind into thinking that you are misperceiving things.

[B]

Yeah. And in the book he started, and I think in other cases we've read about this, he started by doing it really slowly, like putting something in the fridge. I don't remember what it was. Maybe a shoe that shouldn't belong there. And just planting these itty bitty tiny seeds of doubt. Also knowing her mom had been diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's to Make her question, am I losing my mind? Which is an embarrassing question to ask.

[A]

Totally. And I think once you've gone down this, like, wait, can I trust my own memory and thoughts? Did I sign for these appliances and I don't remember? I. I feel like once you go down that slope, it's easier to make it bigger and bigger.

[B]

Yeah. Well, and I think once you start to question yourself, it's easier to kind of place blame on yourself and to not ask your spouse or ask your friend because you're like, this is really embarrassing. When she's like, wait, I forgot I'm the one buying a gift for our group. And she's like, I don't want to say I forgot. I don't want to say you gave me money. And I don't know where it is. Because you just think, how could I have forgotten that?

[A]

Yeah, there's actually, this is. What's interesting about it is there's something called informational social influence or conformity. And it's basically the idea that we conform to group pressures or group ideas often because somebody else, we. We feel like they have more information than we do, and so they must be. Right. Right. And so it's the same concept. Like these people, both my best friend and my husband are saying that I was responsible for this gift. I be somehow mistaken here. And so you take and change your. Your mindset around it. And we do that. All of us do that all the time.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I actually haven't thought about it that way. I also think, do we remember what year this book was written? That's. I always like to just ask these questions that you have no idea what the answers are without any warning.

[A]

Well, let me think. Let me think about when I read.

[B]

This book while you're Googling it.

[A]

We forgot Googling it, but I do remember it being published in February, maybe the 9th of 2017.

[B]

Was it 2017?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, here's why I'm asking that. But also what I was going to say. The name of the movie is Blackwater Lane. It's not called the Breakdown, so look up Blackwater Lane. But I do feel like in recent years, gaslighting, like, I have come to understand more what gaslighting is. And I think I used to call it, like, people being passive aggressive and didn't really understand. And I do feel like it's a term that's overused now. But looking back in 2017, gaslighting, for me at least wasn't a term that I had in my vocabulary. And that's what this book is about.

[A]

I. She was ahead of her time.

[B]

She. We're gonna have to. That's why we invited her to retreat and just about fell on the floor and died when she said yes.

[A]

I know, I know. Yeah. No, she did like an awesome job talking about gaslighting. And then I think now with social media and people understanding how gaslighting really happens in relationships and yes, it's totally overused and over diagnosed people are like, you're gaslighting me. No, I just, I just didn't. One thing like, that's not gaslighting. But I think now people would probably take it and be like, yeah, that's what this is. That's what he's doing.

[B]

Yeah, gaslighting with like extreme. I guess manipulation is a part of gaslighting.

[A]

Can we just talk about how affairs seem to make people lose their absolute minds all the way?

[B]

Yes, we can.

[A]

I don't understand personally affairs because I have not personally had an affair nor have I been cheated on that I know of. Knock on wood. I know that, like I've probably been cheated on when I didn't know, but everyone can come come at me for that. But I don't. I haven't been in a situation where I've had to address this personally. I, I know better than to say never about anything. Right. Ever. But I do feel like I've seen enough affairs in a general circle around me in various ways that like, it is so damaging. I just cannot fathom myself ever being involved in something like that. That would be so harmful.

[B]

Completely. I mean, you know this, we've talked about it. I completely agree with you. And I think in my closer circle I haven't experienced a lot of infidelity or people cheating because I surround myself with people who don't make that choice. And then the people who do, I have just seen it completely like in this story, implode their lives. Even if it's 10 years down the line and it just starts so innocuous and like, oh, it's just a kiss or just this. But then it gets to the point where in the book you murder someone, but in the smaller picture you really hurt people around you.

[A]

Right. Well, and that, that's the thing that's interesting. What you just said is spot on. Right? Because there's the people that I choose to surround myself with, right. Where culturally that's just. It's not an acceptable thing. It's not something that everyone would be like, these things happen. It's very much like, probably happening, and we don't know about it, but it's not culturally acceptable. And I think it is a cultural thing. Like, I think the people you surround yourself with. I dated a guy once who, like, all his friends had cheated, and I'm like, then you're going to be a cheater, too. Like, we're not going to go far with this relationship because I'm not going to be with somebody who surrounds themselves with people, surrounds himself with people who will support that. Right. Like, here's. Here's my, I guess, point. Like, if he was going to go out to a bar with his friends on a guy's night, they would obviously be completely fine with him meeting a woman and cheating on me. Right. If. If I were to go out to a bar with my girlfriends, they would be like, what are you doing? If I was talking to a man for more than, like, a polite couple of minutes, they would be like, stop. That's stupid. Right. And so culturally, there's just, like, a difference there in who you surround yourself with.

[B]

Yeah. And I also think it can be who you surround yourself with in a work scenario. Like Ben, for a while, when he was between jobs, started at a commercial real estate firm. And I'll leave the name out of it, but really quickly. And he recognized it, and so did I. He was like, nope, this. This is not the atmosphere I want to be a part of. Just, like the fast. Lots of nights out, lots of entertaining clients, lots of just putting yourself in situations where you're kind of asking for something to happen. So I think it's both your personal life and your professional life, and who are you, who's telling you that these things are okay, or who's absolutely calling you on it and telling you, this is. This is not how we behave as respectful adults.

[A]

And I think there's, like, a slippery slope there, too. Right. Because there's like. There's like, it becomes okay to flirt because that's just fun. You can just flirt at the bar and then it's like, well, why not dance at the bar with somebody? And. And that's fun. Flirting. Well, sure, you could give them your number and then there's texting. Right. Like, that's what. I just want to protect my marriage. And I can only control half of my marriage. I can only control my half. But for my part in my marriage, I want to protect it by being like, no, we're not even going to entertain that. Like, we're not even going to entertain much conversation with a single person or with Another per. Just a. Maybe not a single person, just another man. I sound. I sound crazy and I sound like I'm super pedantic about this and super, like, straight and narrow. But I. I guess. I guess my point is I really, really think affairs are really, really dangerous for outcomes I could not stop thinking about when thinking about this book, Chris Watts.

[B]

No, and let's get into that. I was going to tell you the other one I couldn't stop thinking about. And we haven't talked about talking about this, but all of a sudden I was like, oh, my God, this makes me think of from that podcast, Dear John, Dr. John. Do you remember that one? The guy that pretended he was a doctor and gaslit all of these women and he ended up the one that, you know, was finally caught and died. But I was like, this is not the Chris Watts case that we'll talk about, but this one, I'm like, this was a hobby for him, like gaslighting these women and manipulating them into giving him money and believing this story and the amount of men who are out there who take advantage of women in this way. Anyway, just all of a sudden today, I was like, oh, my gosh, it makes me think of that podcast, Dirty John.

[A]

Dirty, Dirty John. Yeah. No, you're right. And those are obviously extreme cases. That's like, Chris Watts and Dirty John are extreme cases. So it's not like I think that's gonna happen in all of these scenarios, but we do know there are crimes of passion. And if you are going to experience violence, like, having an affair is a good way to test out if your partner might become violent or somebody might become violent. Like, these are really heated things to do. And so I don't like that, like, that feeling of safety. When I had a friend that we found out her husband was having an affair many years ago. This was a long time ago, her husband was having an affair. She found out. It was really awful. The whole thing's terrible. Luckily, they're not married anymore. All of that's settled. But there was, like, a lot of concern from all of her friends about safety for her and, like, the kids. And just anytime I hear about somebody having an affair, and of course, these are never in my closest circle. These are outside that. Like we talked about. There's people in your circle sometimes that you can't control having in your circle who. Who do things that you then know about. And I'm always concerned about safety.

[B]

Always. And while we say Chris Watts and Dirty John are the most extreme cases, this is going to sound like it doesn't fit, but it's like those texts that came out today from the people in the Republican Party that were horrific. And you're like, but also, sometimes it's just the people that get caught. And just because these are the most extreme examples doesn't mean that this is happening one degree less every single fucking day in the lives of women. Like, these are the worst of the worst. But there's 2 degrees less that's happening every day to some women.

[A]

Right. It's so scary. And so there's that and then there's just like the emotional trauma it causes people. Like watching kids who had to go through their parents going through affairs. I mean, and I know divorce itself is. Is complex, but I just think it's so fundamentally different divorce than an affair. I think an affair has so much deception and disrespect in it, we could.

[B]

Go down this rabbit hole for days. I think that's substantially different. When there is. I know people, I know people who have chosen to get divorced and it was the healthiest decision because it came from a place of respect. And that is the word that I'm like, if you. An affair takes the respect piece out of that equation and you're now getting divorced because you chose to disrespect in such a way where an amicable divorce can be what's best for both parties. And the kids, they're completely different.

[A]

Yeah. And just the level of willingness to deceive your nuclear or immediate family is. And generally other people too, surrounding them like that. Dedication to deception. How do you ever recover from that in terms of trust with that person? So that's why I just think it's so, so damaging. I used to think I'm still unsure. Right. Like, if my husband had an affair. You and I have talked about this. I used to think if my husband had an affair, would I, would I stay with him or not? I don't know. It depends on all these circumstances. I think I can pretty unequivocally say, like, if he had an affair that was ongoing, like a multiple times ongoing affair, there is no recovery for us with that. Because I can't imagine ever trusting somebody who could do that level of deception to me again.

[B]

Well, and here's the thing, and we haven't said this word about it, but we've talked around it. For me, that wouldn't be because my husband had like had sex with someone 10 times behind my back. Sex is the least of my concerns in this scenario. It's the Least it would be that you planned your life around us in a way to lie to me in such a horrific way 10 times. Like, it's the deception. It's not the actual sex. That's what you did during that time. But it's more that you removed yourself from our family. You lied to my face. You lied to our kids. And that's how you used your time.

[A]

What the. Yeah, so anyway, this guy's a douche in the book. Is that the proper term? He is disgusting. And I'm. I'm disgusted. And I. Takes two to tango. And I do not buy the whole. It's only the married person's fault. What's wrong with you? If you are having. Engaging an affair with somebody who's married, you're like a home wrecker. And I don't. So the. The best friend is absolutely just as much at fault here. As far as I'm concerned. You're deceiving your best friend and having an affair with someone else's husband.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that deal breaker. For me, if I just had a friend who I knew was talking to a married man, I would be like, well, that's a deal breaker. We are not friends anymore because that's a line we don't cross.

[A]

Right? Like, stop, stop now. That's enough. Right? And at some point there is a boundary. Like I could imagine being like, ashley, stop. It's completely unacceptable. Clean your life up. Figure it out. Right? Here's what rests. I. I'm not going to keep your secret. So you figure it out. But also, if you just were going on and on with it and persisting being like, I'm over it. Here's my question. The only thing about the breakdown, she was such an isolated woman. She had this best friend and this husband, but there was nobody else in her life who was involved.

[B]

Right. Other than these friends that, you know, they bought a suitcase for that one friend.

[A]

And.

[B]

But also probably when we learn that, we just know that when a man is manipulating his wife in that way and emotionally abusing her, I'm sure he got her to the point of being that isolated.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Like in like little increments of making her feel unloved. And we know it doesn't happen in a one time scenario.

[A]

Yeah. It's just a. It's all three of them seem so isolated to just be in this situation and not have anybody be like, hey, something weird's going on here. But. But I guess Jane was involved. The. The woman who was killed at the beginning because she found Out.

[B]

This is a. This is a big leap. But we're going to talk a little bit about Chris Watts, right? But with the affairs and with men who choose to do this and choose to lie, it's also the snowball effect of like, you lie about and then it gets so completely out of control, you end up. I mean, he ended up annihilating his whole family lying about it. But it's like if you don't start down that. I don't know, I just think about the snowball effect of like, when you make one decision to deceive and then it turns into this massive thing. You can't.

[A]

So Chris Watts, probably everyone is familiar, was married to Shanann and had two little girls. And she. Shannan was pregnant and he killed his wife in 2018 and killed his two little girls the same night. He strangled his wife and killed. Strangled the two little girls. He put that. Put them in an oil drum. I mean, absolutely disgusting. And the girls were alive. And he reports in an interview that he, when he was carrying his dead wife out and stuff, the girls were like, what are you doing to mommy? What are you doing to mommy? Like, they witnessed that he was having an affair with Nicole Kessinger. Apparently Kessinger was involved in helping catch Chris, that he did it. But there's also been a lot of suspicion around her involvement or lack of involvement in the actual crime. Chris has reportedly said that the affair is what led him to do this, that being with her and wanting to be with her is what led him to kill his entire family. So just a weird, sick case. But it reminded me of this because he would go to any lengths to be with this woman. And for whatever reason, he felt like what was necessary was to kill everyone when you would hope, like in the breakdown, they had to go and like, make her seem crazy and kill the woman who was going to tell her and say, like, how about a divorce? How about just a divorce, right? How about you just tell and deal with the aftermath?

[B]

Am I remembering correctly too? Em? So a couple other things. The timeline's kind of nuts. He and Nicole met in 2018 at work. They became romantically involved just six weeks before the murders. So in a six week time period, it got that completely, absolutely insane. He lied to Nicole, telling her he was separated and that his divorce was almost final. She said she believed him, but as you said, it's been reported that it seems like maybe she knew more. And that's kind of the story she's telling.

[A]

Right?

[B]

She was never charged, but there are a lot of questions, just like you said, about her involvement in it. Huh?

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's a. It's a terrible case. I mean, it's very disturbing, you know, and he tried to get away with it. He tried to hide the evidence and acted like, oh, she's missing. I'm concerned. Where is she? And you can see some of the video footage of. Of police body camera footage from when they went in there.

[B]

Who loved the neighbor. The woman when the neighbors.

[A]

Her best friend.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like, she knew. Like, she. That's one of my favorite pieces of footage from that. The Netflix series American Murder. I think it's where she's like, look at Chris.

[A]

Yep, she knew.

[B]

Yeah, that's a girl's girl.

[A]

But see, that's what. It's six weeks. That's what I mean. I guess the whole conversation actually felt like it stemmed from. About affairs and how dangerous they are. Stems from that. That, like, clearly your brain goes absolutely haywire when you are finding this exciting new partnership.

[B]

Well, and, I mean, he was gaslighting Shanann, too. Like, wasn't it in the documentary where she started to suspect something? And he did tell her, like, you're crazy. You're just imagining this. And she had talked with, I think, her mom and some friends, and she even tried to, like, be more romantic and show up for him in these ways because she. He made her feel like, you're not enough.

[A]

She knew something was wrong.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And he completely manipulated her to think, no, you're just crazy. You just.

[A]

Yeah, but it's just so scary. It's so scary that people flip this switch and become something else. You know, I was talking with my. My mom about this, just in this context about deception and the deception of affair. And, you know, an interesting thing is the idea that there's a level of deception you could probably identify elsewhere. So people who are willing to lie in general, and I'm not talking about the white lie that everybody tells where they're like, we can't come. We don't feel good, you know, to the party, whatever. I'm talking about deception. Like, broader deception. Like, and it can be even smaller things, but, like, lying about where you were, what you did, what you ate, I don't know anything. Right. Those kinds of things I could see as, like, precursors.

[B]

I completely agree with you. And I know people who I think are consistently dishonest in ways to draw attention to themselves or to do whatever. And if I look back, I'm like, oh, there were, like, Yellow and red flags all along. And it was just like a slow roll to get to the point where now you're telling way bigger lies that are, like, harmful to yourself and other people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This also made me think a little bit about the Scott Peterson case, which, yes. Like, I mean, he gaslit both of those women in an insane way. Yeah.

[A]

Well, is that. Is that. I don't. Is that what, gaslighting?

[B]

I don't know. I mean, I think in my terms, the way I use it is too loosey goosey.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like. I don't feel like he was gaslighting them.

[B]

I think he was just lying.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, he was just lying. And I think Chris Watts was also just lying. I think gaslighting is the concept of making people believe they're completely wrong and crazy and off base. He was just lying.

[B]

Yeah, they both were just lying. But again, like, in the breakdown, were having affairs and ended up doing something horrific to try to just cover that piece of it up instead of just getting some balls and saying, I'm a piece of shit and I cheated on you. And there it is.

[A]

I know. Anyway, this was a light episode. And now everyone's like, emily is judgmental. Yes. If you're having an affair, fucking stop.

[B]

Well, I think we made the difference. I mean, I think we made the distinction between. I don't think it's judgmental. I think especially with all of the cases we talked about, like, these are grown adults making this choice, and then instead of facing the consequences, they're choosing to do something horrific to try to cover it up.

[A]

Yeah. I just. I feel like we have. We have a lack in this country, not in this country, in the world, in humanity, of remembering to treat others how you would want to be treated. And like, nobody would want their partner that they are loving at the time, whether that's your. Your spouse or love partner, whatever, to be off having an affair with someone else. Nobody would want that to happen to them. So why do we engage in that with others?

[B]

Yeah. 100.

[A]

And I just. Yeah. So maybe it is a. A bit of judgment, but I think it's also more judgment about a lack of human decency.

[B]

Yeah. And the way we're willing to hurt other people to serve ourselves in some weird, selfish way.

[A]

Yeah. I just feel like there's mistakes happen, people make mistakes, but then you have to be accountable for them and responsible for them. And I. I just. These books make me so infuriated where they're all about, like, still people trying to dodge account accountability, whatever I can do to not be accountable for the fact that I'm sleeping with her best friend. Whatever I can do to not be accountable for the fact that I'm sleeping with her husband.

[B]

You have to finish the Sherry Lupina book.

[A]

I know. I will. I'm gonna go put myself in timeout after this episode, though.

[B]

I'm gonna go to physical therapy and make her work me out until I want to cry.

[A]

Yes, you do that. I'm gonna put myself in timeout and think about all the things I said and apologize to all of our besties. I'm not sorry, though. If I say an apology, it's empty.

[B]

We'll cut out that part. You said not sorry. We like Emily's formal apology.

[A]

It'll be like, I'm sorry. My gosh.

[B]

Okay, besties, do we know what book we're talking about next, or do we not know that yet?

[A]

Turn of the Key. Yeah, Turn by Ruth Ware.

[B]

So go read that and be ready for in two weeks. Two weeks from now, we will talk about Turn of the Key.

[A]

Yeah, we. We're going to launch that thing we talked about. We just haven't yet.

[B]

Yes, next. Maybe. No promises, but fingers crossed for next week. All right, bye, guys. Bye. Thanks for listening.

[A]

For more content, find us on Patreon at the creepy book club.

[B]

Happy reading.