The Religion Episode

Summary

Books With Your Besties: The Religion Episode – Detailed Summary

Release Date: August 1, 2025

Hosts: Emily and Ashley
Podcast Description: Dive into engaging, candid conversations with Emily and Ashley as they explore thrillers, true crime, and thought-provoking topics, all infused with humor and the chemistry of their 23-year friendship.

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1. Addressing Home Safety: The Natural Gas Dilemma

Overview:
The episode begins with Emily sharing a personal anecdote about a safety issue at her home involving a covered gas meter. This segues into a broader discussion about the dangers of natural gas and the hosts' plans to transition to electric appliances.

Key Points:

• Gas Meter Incident: Emily recounts how her husband's DIY bar inadvertently covered their gas meter, triggering a report from Avista due to safety concerns.
  • Quote: “[00:33] Emily: ...I woke up in the night in, like, a sweat. Like, you can't do that.”
• Health Concerns: Emily cites a Stanford University study linking exposure to gas appliances with a doubled risk of cancer in children.
  • Quote: “[02:30] Emily: ...children raised in homes with gas appliances are twice as likely to develop cancer.”
• Transition to Electric: Discussing the financial and practical aspects, Emily and Ashley explore switching to induction stoves and other electric appliances to eliminate natural gas from their home.
  • Quote: “[03:56] Ashley: ...I have no idea why you have those? What have I done?”

Insights:

• The hosts emphasize the importance of home safety and the long-term health implications of relying on natural gas.
• Financial constraints are addressed, highlighting the challenges of upgrading home infrastructure.

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2. Rising Extremism: Understanding Accelerationists

Overview:
Ashley introduces a critical topic on extremism, specifically focusing on "Accelerationists" — far-right groups aiming to destabilize societal systems to incite radical change.

Key Points:

• Accelerationists Defined: Individuals who believe in accelerating existing societal destabilizing forces to bring about swift, radical change.
  • Quote: “[07:00] Ashley: ...they believe the best way to bring about radical societal or political change is to accelerate the forces that are already destabilizing the system.”
• Boogaloo Day: A signal for Accelerationists to initiate violent actions against non-fascist individuals.
  • Quote: “[07:37] Ashley: ...Boogaloo Day... is like the same signal to the Accelerationists that like today is the day we are acting.”
• Personal Impact: Both hosts express their fear and the need to become preppers due to the increasing threat posed by these extremist groups.
  • Quote: “[08:09] Ashley: ...there are more of these people out there than I think we are aware of.”

Insights:

• The conversation underscores the real and present danger of extremist groups gaining traction through online platforms and the potential for widespread societal harm.
• The hosts advocate for personal preparedness and awareness as necessary responses to these threats.

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3. Personal Reflections on Religion and Its Impact

Overview:
Transitioning from external threats, Emily and Ashley delve into their personal journeys away from organized religion, critiquing the negative aspects of religious doctrines and their influence on personal values and societal norms.

Key Points:

• Emily’s Journey:

  • Formerly a devout Christian, Emily shares her reasons for distancing herself from religion, focusing on the binary categorization of believers and non-believers.
  • Quote: “[14:00] Emily: ...the term non Christian was the very concept of a belief system where you are either in it or you're an outsider... I cannot stand when something is not safe.”
  • Discusses the lack of empathy and the judgmental nature of certain Christian doctrines.
  • Quote: “[18:00] Emily: ...any belief system that will have you pause or suspend your ability for sympathy or empathy... is not one I would want anything to do with.”

• Ashley’s Perspective:

  • Raised in a liberal church and a Catholic high school, Ashley identifies as agnostic and criticizes the self-righteous and shame-based aspects of religion.
  • Quote: “[14:00] Ashley: ...I have moved to a place where I can no longer support the systems that the church, capital C Church, all of it, currently supports.”

• Negative Experiences:

  • Emily recounts how her cousin's suicide and the pastor’s insensitive response contributed to her rejection of Christianity.
    • Quote: “[19:04] Ashley: Did you... when your cousin committed suicide and the pastor said that absolutely horrific thing...”
  • Discussions about the harmful impact of religious teachings on personal behavior, such as shame around premarital sex and the condemnation of LGBTQ+ individuals.
    • Quote: “[22:19] Emily: ...the shame piece... You don’t have good values if you're a non Christian.”

Insights:

• The hosts articulate a strong critique of how certain religious practices and beliefs can foster judgment, shame, and exclusion, impacting mental health and personal relationships.
• They emphasize the importance of empathy, compassion, and authentic values over rigid doctrinal adherence.
• The conversation highlights the struggle of reconciling personal beliefs with inherited religious teachings, advocating for a more inclusive and compassionate worldview.

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4. The Broader Impact of Religion on Society and Individuals

Overview:
Emily and Ashley explore the societal implications of religious doctrines, particularly how they influence behavior, policy, and interpersonal relationships.

Key Points:

• Judgment and Hypocrisy:
  • Critique of the hypocrisy in condemning certain sins while ignoring others, leading to inconsistent and unfair judgments.
    • Quote: “[24:11] Emily: ...if you are Ted Bundy, but you got water sprinkled on your head...”
• Impact on Relationships:
  • Discussion on how religious condemnation affects familial and social relationships, particularly regarding sexuality and personal choices.
    • Quote: “[26:45] Ashley: ...because Glenn was in a loving relationship with a man...”
• Biblical Interpretation:
  • Criticism of selective and culturally biased interpretations of the Bible to justify discrimination and exclusion.
    • Quote: “[28:03] Ashley: ...they cherry-picked one verse to fit your narrative.”

Insights:

• The episode underscores the damaging effects of using religious texts to enforce discriminatory practices, leading to societal divisions and personal anguish.
• The hosts advocate for a reinterpretation of religious teachings, emphasizing context and compassion over literalism and exclusion.

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5. Concluding Thoughts and Reflections

Overview:
As the episode winds down, Emily and Ashley briefly touch upon lighter topics, such as their experiences with audiobooks and the joy of contributing to the Creepy Book Club.

Key Points:

• Audiobook Experiences:
  • Emily expresses her frustration with Audible’s credit system, preferring to support authors directly through local purchases.
    • Quote: “[32:05] Ashley: ...I have no idea why you have those? What have I done?”
• Creepy Book Club Contributions:
  • Both hosts share their enthusiasm for their roles in designing and maintaining the Creepy Book Club’s offerings.
    • Quote: “[32:43] Emily: ...I worked on designing that box that it comes in, and I get so stoked when it comes every month.”

Insights:

• The hosts balance their intense discussions with personal anecdotes, showcasing the depth and breadth of their friendship.
• They maintain a positive outlook by highlighting their professional and creative endeavors outside of the more serious topics discussed.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Emily on Safety Concerns:

  • “[00:33] Emily: ...I woke up in the night in, like, a sweat. Like, you can't do that.”

• Ashley on Accelerationists:

  • “[07:00] Ashley: ...they believe the best way to bring about radical societal or political change is to accelerate the forces that are already destabilizing the system.”

• Emily on Losing Faith:

  • “[14:00] Emily: ...the term non Christian was the very concept of a belief system where you are either in it or you're an outsider...”

• Ashley on Religious Hypocrisy:

  • “[28:03] Ashley: ...they cherry-picked one verse to fit your narrative.”

• Emily on Empathy and Belief Systems:

  • “[18:00] Emily: ...any belief system that will have you pause or suspend your ability for sympathy or empathy... is not one I would want anything to do with.”

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Conclusion

In "The Religion Episode," Emily and Ashley navigate through deeply personal and societal issues, from home safety and health concerns to the alarming rise of extremist groups and the profound impact of religion on individual lives. Their candid dialogue offers listeners an unfiltered look into the challenges of maintaining personal safety and authenticity in a world fraught with ideological extremism and rigid belief systems. Balancing serious discourse with personal anecdotes and humor, the hosts provide a comprehensive and engaging exploration of topics that resonate with many seeking understanding and change.

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Support the Podcast:
For extra content, bonus episodes, and behind-the-scenes footage, consider supporting Emily and Ashley on Patreon.

Next Episode:
Stay tuned for more insightful discussions on "Books With Your Besties," where Emily and Ashley continue to blend depth, humor, and the enduring bond of friendship.

Transcript

[Ashley]

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[Emily]

Hi, I'm Emily.

[Ashley]

I'm Ashley.

[Emily]

And this is books with your besties. So the gas company stopped by because my husband built a bar two years ago and covered the gas meter with the bar. So there's, like, a door where you can open it to see the gas meter. And I was so panicked about it, like, years ago. I woke up in the night in, like, a sweat. Like, you can't do that. And he's like, no, no, no. It's all digital now. It's fine. But Avista got a report from their, like, rounding inspections, and the bar has to be moved immediately.

[Ashley]

Your whole bar in your backyard, they.

[Emily]

Cannot turn off the gas in an emergency. There is not enough access.

[Ashley]

How do you move it?

[Emily]

And a meter cannot be covered on the top.

[Ashley]

I mean, I feel like it might be worth it because it looks so cute back there.

[Emily]

I'm like, yeah, Steve, we couldn't have figured this out before and figured out a design that had. And two. I'm like, why could we not just do. Like, he has this concrete countertop. I want to get rid of it. It's £200 per piece. It's £400, probably. And I'm like, if we had a wood countertop, we could cut it. We could cut it and make a section or make a section that has, like, a hinged section, Right. So that it could cover it, which is fine. But then in an emergency, they just fold it back. So I'm going to just talk to them about removing the. Moving the bar over some inches. Like, it's just. It's. It sucks.

[Ashley]

That does suck. But if you would have given me 10,000 guesses as to who was at your house, I would not have guessed that.

[Emily]

That's why I took a little bit, because they had to go check it and then come back. Okay.

[Ashley]

And decide what to find you or if they were going to arrest you or what was happening.

[Emily]

Steve, whatever it costs, let's fix this. Like, hire somebody to build the wooden countertop. I don't care, but let's. I cannot stand when something is not safe. And I hate natural gas. Like, I want to remove it from our whole house, and every single appliance we have is natural gas. And it's just like a stress point for me. So actually, we are looking at induction stoves. So we're going to go to an induction stove top. And, you know, Stanford University just came out with a study that said that children raised in homes with gas appliances, like gas stoves, are twice as likely to develop cancer. And look, the risk of developing cancer might be like, what, 2% or something? And so it's like 4%. That's not insignificant to me. That's too much. And for what?

[Ashley]

Have you seen the induction? Like, you know, I watch HGTV all the time. That's like my cops. And have you seen the induction countertops? Where. Is this what you're talking about, where it just looks like a countertop?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

And kind of.

[Emily]

This is not. This is not as seamless. It looks like a stove top, but it's just flat.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Okay.

[Emily]

Because we're not. We don't have the money to get the.

[Ashley]

Wanted to be like, what are you doing? Because this one costs like $35,000.

[Emily]

Especially now that we have to pay like, three grand probably to rebuild this bar, this DIY bar. We have enough to buy a cheap induction stove, But I'm one appliance at a time trading them out. Like, our stove and oven have driven me crazy for years. So I'm ready. Anyway, this, like, when this study came out, Steve's like, let's go for it. Let's do this first. But like, our AC and is not on. Not gas, obviously, but our furnaces. And it is on its last legs. I mean, the thing has to be 15, 20 years old. So I'm like, well, when that kicks the bucket, it's going electric. Our hot water heater. I'm like, I want a tankless electric. Like, there is just like, any more. I just don't want natural gas. I don't want it.

[Ashley]

If I'm running and smell it, I stop and call. Because I'm just like, what is happening at this person's house? There's gas leaking somewhere. Like, it's. It's scary.

[Emily]

It's scary. I know it's convenient. But the thing is, it's like, it also causes explosions. It also causes carbon monoxide poisoning. I'm like, these are things that we could eliminate. Eliminate from our. Eliminate. Eliminate from our concern list. So. And I know I'm. I know I'm like a weirdo about it. But here's the thing is our older gas stove malfunctioned and in the middle of the night we had gotten a brand new dishwasher when we first moved in cause we had to get all new appliances. So we got our new dishwasher and it smelled so weird and my dad was in town and my dad and Jeannie were like, it's just that plastically smell from a new dishwasher. Like I had run it for the first time. So I was just like. I kept dismissing it as that, but I was like something was not sitting right. And this was like 6pm and at midnight I shot out of bed and I was like, it's natural gas. And I, I knew it. And it had been pumping from our stove. The burner had been turned on a little bit and then burned out.

[Ashley]

So.

[Emily]

So I had been simmering artichokes and then it had like burned out at some point and we didn't notice it was still on. So it was just pumping natural gas into the air for six hours.

[Ashley]

Yeah. It's so scary.

[Emily]

Yeah, it was just like this is just. No, this isn't. And I'm glad they sent it. But it just was like there's just too many stories that I'm like, no, I'm ready to move electric. The other thing is, is I'm now a firm believer in being a prepper and I think our infrastructure is old enough. Well, we know that, right? We, our infrastructure is like was designed to be around for 50 years and now it's 75 years old. Like for electricity and stuff, generators go down if there's like nine or something ridiculous like that. Like have you seen that Homeland Security report?

[Ashley]

Yes. And actually you, you don't even know what you're doing right now. But when you're done with this, you're walking me right into the first thing I wanted to talk about to chat with us. And you have no idea because I've been saving this to talk to you about it.

[Emily]

I love it. Well, anyway, there's just, there's just ways to, to find to get batteries to support off grid kind of living like solar, those kinds of things, right. Teslas and electric vehicles and like stuff like that that I'm just like, I just want to be on electric and I want to find an off the grid way to support that that's sustainable. Something like electric. I mean something like solar. Anyway, that's my long term goals. Go please.

[Ashley]

So this is a chat. A Chat with Us episode, everybody. We're we're here and actually a catch up with us. And here's what I've been saving to talk to you about, because I know you and I have talked about this and I have heard of it, but I had never heard it put so plainly in black and white. So I listened to an interview on Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, which I love, and he interviewed this guy named Scott Payne. Scott Payne is an FBI agent who would go undercover. And he went undercover with far right groups and he wrote a book about it. One of the groups that he talked about, and I had just never heard this name for them, and now I too am committed to being a prepper because I'm terrified. Are called the Accelerationists. Have you heard of this word?

[Emily]

No.

[Ashley]

Okay. So basically they are so they're people that believe the best way to bring about radical societal or political change is to accelerate the forces that are already destabilizing the system. So they are the extreme fascists. They are the. And they're looking for ways to move their purpose forward at a quicker pace, which are like lone wolf shootings which are getting rid of entire races, which are. And they have this thing. And I swear we've talked about this called Boogaloo Day. Boogaloo Day. Have you heard that?

[Emily]

I've heard of that.

[Ashley]

Which is like. That is like the same signal to the Accelerationists that like today is the day we are acting and we are going to basically get rid of everybody that is not openly a fascist. Okay. So that's what I.

[Emily]

But their ultimate intent is that they. Are you saying their ultimate intent is for the greater good? That they think if you get extreme enough, fast enough, overthrows the whole society and crumbles it and it has to kind of start from a rebuild?

[Ashley]

Yes and no. I mean, they. They are white supremacist neo Nazis or anti government extremists who.

[Emily]

So that part, not so great. But the piece about destruction of current systems to try to build new ones, I mean, that is going to have to happen in some way. It's just maybe not their agenda items.

[Ashley]

Exactly. So it's not like building. It's not like, okay, we know how many systems are broken because you and I have talked about how many systems are broken. But it's like we want. It's just like white power. And I mean, Scott Payne was like, I was undercover and this guy said, when it's Boogaloo day, I will have to kill my dad because he is just not far right enough. And I just encourage everybody to listen to this interview too. And there's an entire podcast series on it called White Hot Hate. I just had never heard of a group that was this extreme. And I knew that they were out there, but now I too feel like I have to be more of a prepper than I have been because there are more of these people out there than I think we are aware. And they're being given permissions that they weren't before.

[Emily]

Interesting. You know, there's someone I know in my life that, that posted something about Boogaloo Day or something. And so that's what. And, and other people in her comments being like, yeah, Boogaloo. And you know, she posts a lot of AR15. What's. Is that what it's called? AR15s guns and whatnot. And it's fascinating and I keep an eye on it. But she's Asian, so isn't that a little interesting? It's not going to go well for her, huh?

[Ashley]

No. And I didn't prepare you to talk about this at all. I've just been waiting to talk to you about it. Because it, it's horrifying. It's horrifying. And even Scott, the FBI, who had been with KKK groups and with other groups was like, this is, this is an absolutely extreme group of people who now have access things like Chan 4 Chan Discord, like they have places to talk and the things they're saying, they're allowed to say because of the First Amendment.

[Emily]

So they want to collapse our systems though too?

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Emily]

Listen, that's internal terrorism, right? We have like Homeland, homegrown terrorists. But also there's other countries that I'm sure if, you know, could use our infrastructure failures against us. Homeland Security's report said if something like, I don't know, 14 generators all go down at one time, which it during, or maybe it was like even fewer than that. But in Texas, I think at one point when they had that big ice storm and they had no power for like a week, it was like five went down. They're like, if 14 go down nationwide at the same time, our entire infrastructure will be collapsed and it won't be able to be turned back on for like 18 months and 90% of the American population will die.

[Ashley]

Okay, well, we were.

[Emily]

I mean, I know that may sound far fetched, but who are we to say that some other country, if we get into conflict of some type, doesn't want to collapse our infrastructure? Like, I just want some version of self sufficiency where, you know, I have my own home crafted wi Fi. No, I'm just kidding. But I have, you know, a garden and some means of heat and cooling.

[Ashley]

The last thing I'll say about this is that I did, I did also really like in this interview that he also talked about the left. It wasn't just like there's this crazy right extreme group. He's like, this also happens on the left where they're trying to extend, accelerate like in too quickly of a way, things like climate crisis, things like, I don't know, other stuff. And it, it, he's just like, it's too extreme on either side and we can't just collapse a system this quickly and this dangerously. Anyway, I'm just going off, but it was such a good interview.

[Emily]

Oh, I don't doubt at all that there are far left extremists that are doing this as well. And also both extreme sides are so focused on the I told you so. That's what accelerationism sounds like to me. Like I'm going to show them, I'm going to show them what it's like if they don't listen. Well, thank you so much for helping us see it like we found out now we effed around.

[Ashley]

So everybody listen to it. And then listen to White Hot Hate, which is like a five part series with Scott Payne talking about being with all of these groups and what he described. I never want to be an undercover cop ever.

[Emily]

No, I don't even want to be a regular police officer. Certainly I don't want to be an undercover one.

[Ashley]

So don't you like when I just drop bombs on you? I'm like, I didn't tell you we were going to talk about this, but here we are talking.

[Emily]

Well, I started it with this random story about the, the gas meter at my house.

[Ashley]

It's an important one, but we're going to catch up with us and we were going to talk about some other serious stuff today too.

[Emily]

Yeah, let's talk about everything Emily doesn't like. First off, I don't like natural gas. Well, I, you know, I had some interesting conversations recently and some sort of thoughts, thoughtfulness around this and you know, my family's been talking about it and something I don't share very much but I think is a important part of my identity probably and something that I feel passionately about is that I am non religious but I am formerly very Christian. So I have a lot of knowledge and understanding about Christianity and particularly about the culture of Christianity and the thinking around Christianity. So like sort of the inside view, not like from a historical Perspective, you know, not like from a. I've studied it a lot. That does not. It gives a different insight if you have truly been a believer in that system. Right. And. And I am now staunchly not religious. And so I had some conversations with some of my Christian friends and some of my non Christian friends, which I will get to this. But my mom said yesterday when we were talking about this that one of the things that actually turned her off of Christianity, that she decided she no longer was really one of them. One of the final ones, straw things that she was no longer identifying with, with Christianity was the term non Christian was the very concept of a belief system where you are either in it or you're an outsider Christian or you're non Christian. And she thought that was pretty gross to sort of categorize people that way. And what about you, Ash?

[Ashley]

Well, like you, I was raised in the church. Like every Sunday to church. I was raised in what I would consider to be a. One of the churches you hear people talk about where they're like, oh, it's one of the good ones, right? Like gay marriages. Like, not really a biblically based sermon every Sunday, kind of just like, come as you are. But. And then also in college, I was a sociology major with a minor in religion, and I went to a Catholic high school, even though I wasn't Catholic. So I have this whole mix of like being raised in kind of a liberal church, being exposed to very strict ideology in a Catholic high school, and then really putting my head down and studying historically what all of this looks like and means through religions across the world and through the Bible. And I can now firmly say, we talked about this yesterday, that I would call myself agnostic, because I don't. I just, with my life's experience, can't think there would be something as powerful as what we like to call God with everything I have seen happen to people who don't deserve it, if that makes sense. So I just feel like I have moved to a place where I can no longer support the systems that the church, capital C Church, all of it, currently supports. I just can't be a part of that. Even if, even if it's one of the quote, unquote, good churches, you're still a part of the bigger system that I fully cannot support.

[Emily]

Yeah, it's interesting because for me too, it's not even because of the culture of it. And I'm definitely further out than you from my. My recovery from Christianity. Like I'm 15 years of not identifying as Christian, maybe 20 how old am I? 20, probably 20 years. I've had a long time to sort of reflect on this and think about it, but I think it's. For me, there's a. There's a bigger core there where values get talked about a lot in the Christian church. And there's this big thing about, like, you don't have good values. You know, if you're a non Christian, you're just. You just don't have the same kind of values. And we have such good values. But values are so much driven by little acts in the church. It is so tangible. You don't have premarital sex. Everyone thinks about that all the time, talks about that. You don't be gay, you don't, you don't. And these are like tangible values. We say to our kids, I would rather my children do all of those things and have strong character than not do those things, but constantly be looking at everyone and judging them for what they're doing. So I'll just tell you one thing. It's intensely personal, but I think it's an important piece of the story for us, and I think it's an important piece of what shaped things. And this is not the only reason. This is actually, each of my family members had a different tipping point, a different reason that we felt like, this is not for me, this is not where I belong. But my cousin took his own life when I was in high school and my mother said that the pastor of our church said, you know, I'm so sorry for your loss. And we really just don't know where he went, do we? And I thought, I think now any belief system that will have you pause or suspend your ability for sympathy or empathy or compassion so that you can pass past judgment is not one I would want anything to do with. I think it's grotesque. I think it's wrong patently. And I think that people walking around thinking they know who shall burneth in hell is absolutely bizarre. And so I have no belief, none whatsoever, that if you are Ted Bundy, but you got water sprinkled on your head by someone who claims to love Jesus a lot, then you get to go to heaven. But you know, my kid who's not baptized and is a great person, is going to go to hell. Burn in hell. My. There is, There is no part of me that believes in a God that would operate that way. None. And you can say, well, let me quote you the Bible. You know, the Bible was written by men. I mean, I feel like I'm so confused by why people use the Bible as Yes, it's quote unquote, God's word. Are we sure everything was interpreted a hundred percent correctly? Are we, are we positive that nothing cultural was integrated into the perspective of men when they wrote that word? Are we okay with the thought, the concept that hundreds of men wrote this? And we're certain that because we're born in like an Anglo Christian society and that's what we picked, that anyone who was born in like a, you know, Middle Eastern country and they found Islam, their Allah isn't the same thing as God, they're going to burn in hell and we're not. I just, I just can't with religion. I just cannot. I think if you are so deep into it that you are thinking in that cultural way of you're sad for people who don't have Jesus and don't have faith. I remember that feeling. I remember feeling that way for people. And I excuse myself by you ignorance, but I shouldn't. Right. I get that. I think there's some reflecting to do there on your elitism to.

[Ashley]

Did you. When your cousin committed suicide and the pastor said that absolutely horrific thing, was it something you guys talked about and actively or was it just kind of an unsaid like. Well, that's, that's.

[Emily]

No, my mom didn't tell us for years.

[Ashley]

Yeah, well, because, I mean, yeah, my.

[Emily]

Family did not crush each other's faith. We independently had experiences. Listen, my sister had a friend who got pregnant at 16 and the, the pastors told her to get up in front of the church and announce to the church sin of premarital sex. That's sick. How about you announce your sin of judging someone for having premarital sex? You stand up next. Because all sin, quote unquote, is created equal. How about the people in the room who are, you know, would like to have sex with a child stand up and say that next. Because everybody has sins and some are worse than others. And the ones you can see out loud or up close, we're gonna, we're gonna parade them in front that they have to announce that to other people. A child. So that was my sister's. Mine was that some people on a church trip were really unkind to me and I said a swear word. I've always sworn my whole life. And listen, let me just tell you something. I, I can't quit swearing. It's just not gonna happen. You shouldn't be teaching your kids at like, like, I'd say 10. Your kids should be like, okay, if someone swears around them and just know they're just words if it's not used in an aggressive way right against them. But I said a swear word and I was in high school and one of the people from the church who overheard me say that went and told one of my very good friends families that they should not let their daughter hang out with me anymore because I swore I was a hypocrite.

[Ashley]

You and I talked about this yesterday when we were talking about did we want to record an episode on this? And I think the theme that keeps coming up and one of the reasons I started to move further away because I always had questions about like what is, what is God? What is this thing? But like many, I liked the community of the church and I liked the feeling of being involved in something and I even joined church council. But that's probably because I like leadership and like being in power. Not that probably had nothing to do with the church. But last night as I was going to sleep and I was reflecting on what you and I talked about and what really just like grosses me out right now. And I realized grosses me out within the past, I'd say, I mean you can hold me accountable on this, but I'd say through five years of my life is just the focus on shame that the current. And maybe I'm only saying current because now I'm really hyper focused on like the huge ick that religion gives me. But then, but it's so shame based and so self righteous. And so, I mean my kids and I have conversations every day about I don't care if someone believes in God. I care if they're a good person through their actions. And if you're using the Bible to discriminate against someone because they are gay and they are two people that love one another, for me that's the ultimate sin. You're judging people and trying to make them live a lifestyle based off of a book that that is a historical text. It is not a rule book. It is a text you're choosing to live your life by. But then you are using it to try to hurt others. And that's just disgusting.

[Emily]

Yeah, the shame, the shame piece. And I think especially for girls and women. So here's a tangible piece that I actually have gone through life feeling myself and also watching friends struggle through and talk about now, the shift shame of sex even after marriage for women who have been trained through the church that premarital sex is wrong. The shame that sex brings to women for years and years, the struggle and you Know, that's something that I was talking to a friend about. Like, I will teach my children about the sanctity of their bodies and about love and about the importance of respect and consent and care and those things as it relates to sex. I will never instill in them that kind of shame around a very natural human act.

[Ashley]

Well, and I would say too, just from families we've known and grew up with, and actual literal hard data. I shouldn't say hard data to someone like you because that probably is not the right word, but there, there's research and information out there that these hard and fast rules that are usually biblically based often have the, the negative results. Like if you're preaching biblically based abstinence only education, those are the places people are getting pregnant the most. If you are actually preaching, maybe you're going to have sex before you get married. And I hope it's a special experience and I hope you wait until then and here's how you be safe when that happens in those areas. Like teen pregnancy is going down. So it's also just these strict hard rules that I feel like people use from this historical text or just from their churches in general that make kids feel scared and, and like, I don't, I don't know. That's, that's scary to me.

[Emily]

Yeah, I just, I just, you know, and I know religion does some great things. Lots of philanthropy. I think that's an easy way to be involved in philanthropy. How do you find volunteering opportunities? Those are hard things to do on your own if you don't have a structure in place to do that. Creating community, like you said, where you can meet other people. Think for me, none of that, none of that outweighs the thinking patterns that are instilled in you culturally. Like, here's two incidents. Somebody swears in front of a Christian, say that Christian is very upset by that. And so they talk a bunch of trash about that person swearing. And they tell people how uncouth they are and they must be, you know, drugs or something, I don't know. You know, like, they talk a bunch about that person to somebody else and that's upsetting to that person because it's their friend. Which sin is worse? Which sin is the worst one there, the swear or the talking about that person in a judgmental, negative way that then harms another person because we're going to say, oh, well, they're all equal. They're all equal. You know what? I would rather my kids swear than do the, the second one than Bring direct harm.

[Ashley]

Yeah, well, and, and use your words with swearing. I don't think if you're hurting someone, it matters. It's just a word. But when those people use their words to hurt you or hurt someone else, in my book that's a worse sin. You're using your words for harm, right?

[Emily]

Yes. Using your words for harm in any way versus like a word you don't like. That's. I don't know. There's also, I mean, another scenario. Which do you think is, is preferable? Your child growing up and having consensual loving sex with their college significant other and having that relationship fully vetted and then it ends. And so they have to go to their next partner and say I've already had a partner. Or, or they do their best to resist that sex because they cannot have sex until they're married and then have incredible debilitating guilt and shame over slip ups mistakes, went a little too far, did a little too much. Is that sex? I don't know if that's sex. We got a little close all through those years. I know which one I want my kids to manage. And guess what? The person with all that guilt and shame. And I've watched that multiple times. I watched that through my college years and after I watched that guilt and shame spiral from my Christian friends. Right. Of like it went the time we didn't have sex, but we did. Well, now you still have to tell your next partner of this horrible misstep that you made and are they going to accept you?

[Ashley]

It's just even as we say it out loud, I'm not laughing because I think it's funny, but I'm laughing because when you frame it that way, is seems so clear what the not right answer is. But just how much people let religion and the Bible control their lives in a way that forces them to live like inauthentically and to, to try to follow these rules which then causes such mental health. I mean, you know, in, in my own family, I have a cousin who was gay who also we're not sure if it was an accidental overdose or suicide. And he had a beautiful partner. Anthony and his brother never met his partner and didn't go to his service. And, and I'm like, because Glenn was in a loving relationship with a man, like he and Anthony had a love all of us could only hope for and because they were two men, you couldn't go to his funeral and you couldn't. Like I just feel like what kind of a rule book tells you you have to cast people out not for who they are, but for who they love. That's gross.

[Emily]

Yeah. I think there's some power in trying both sides of a lot of things. Right. And having tried both sides of Christianity, I really, really have no interest in ever returning to the other side.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Emily]

I never want to feel those feelings. Cause here's the thing is there's so many negative feelings. There's so many negative feelings like that, like feeling like I never want to meet my family member's partner because they're gay. And that's wrong. And I, I'm stressing about it. I'm stressing because I can't have a relationship with my family member. And I'm stressed out because I think you're both, they're both burning in hell. Like, it's my job to determine that. Like it's appropriate for me to figure that out.

[Ashley]

Well, and I think the other thing we talked about too, just, you know, you know that this drives me crazy when people quote the Bible and I'm like, you cherry picked one verse to fit your narrative. Like, if you look in Leviticus at where. Sorry, I'm just gonna have to bring some Bible things out. But if you look at Leviticus where it talks about. It's the, the verse that everybody quotes about why it's not okay to be gay in the verses around it. It also says you can't wear mixed fabrics. So if you're saying you're, you can't be gay or you're gonna go to hell, are you wearing cotton and silk right now? Because you can't, because that's mixed fabrics. Also, are you eating shellfish? Because that's also a sin. It's just the nitpicking of verses to discriminate against particular groups of people that makes me insane. Also, there's nothing in the Bible about abortion and it makes people insane when I say that. But there's not. The only thing in there is a recipe for how to induce one. But there is nothing that says abortion is against anything at all. And that makes people insane to say. But it's not in there.

[Emily]

Anyway, that's the thing is it's interpreted with cultural bias and it's, it is cherry picked as to what are the important factors here. And I actually think a lot of them too are rooted in a lot of what, what, what are focused on are rooted in the patriarchy.

[Ashley]

Yeah, you think? I get all of our mega churches and this episode could be three hours long.

[Emily]

Anywho, there we go. Do we Want to talk about one more thing that Emily hates?

[Ashley]

Yeah. What is it?

[Emily]

Okay, let me think.

[Ashley]

They should come quick and fast.

[Emily]

I got nothing. I think we did it. Natural gas and religion.

[Ashley]

I'll say those are the only things.

[Emily]

No, you know, I'll say another thing I don't love. It is the aches and pains that come with aging. Okay, well, that's it. That's it. This, those.

[Ashley]

Wait. But I do have a funny story about that. I went to physical therapy today and I didn't know that Christina, my friend, her son goes to the same place, so they were there at the same time. So. So she was. You know, physical therapy is embarrassing and it's horrifying. And like, the exercises they have you do are just. You don't want anybody to see you doing those. And she was like, I watched you the whole time. I'm like, great, thanks for that. And she sent pictures. I was like, I hate you because aging is fun. Okay, wait, one more thing. I always say this, but you have have to read. I know you're doing it right now with your ears. I finished in my Dreams, I hold a knife. And I immediately reached out to Ashley Winstead. And when you finish it, we have to have a conversation about it because her message back to me was, this is what I really want to talk about at retreat. Like this topic from the book.

[Emily]

I love it so far.

[Ashley]

It's a huge topic.

[Emily]

I love this book so far. It's so good. Yeah, it's definitely right up my alley. I'm like, probably two hours into the 10 hour audiobook and I'm like, absolutely hooked. Here's my issue. This is something to know also about Emily. I hate paying for audible credits. So I wait on Libby forever for everything. But you can only put six holds and then some of them. So right now I had to go onto my Spotify premium and I have 15 hours of listening. Well, I only had five hours left. This is a 10 hour book, but it renews in two days. So I'm like, I can't finish it for two days, so I'm trying to go slow. So every day I'm like, do I need to listen right now? Because then I can charge through it in two days.

[Ashley]

And then I'm one of those people who doesn't really, like, watch my finances the way that I probably should. So I give Emily audible credits. And I don't know where they come from, but I must be paying for them somehow. Like today I had five audible credits. I don't know Why I have those? Why do I have those? What have I done?

[Emily]

I love the way you say that. I budget extremely carefully. Only the amount that I spend on audible.

[Ashley]

And I just always have free credits. I'm like, there's no way all my books can always be free. Where is this coming from?

[Emily]

It's not. It's not that I'm unwilling to spend money on books. It's that the source. Right. It's like, I don't want to support for $22, I have to buy this credit. I would rather buy, you know, from a local source. I wish that they just didn't have a monopoly on. On audiobooks.

[Ashley]

I know. Yeah.

[Emily]

That we could buy them from any source we wanted. Like, I would love to support the authors in purchasing their audiobook. I buy all of their hardcover books. I get this book of the month. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's on the Creepy Book Club.

[Ashley]

I have. They do. They do. Great job.

[Emily]

I have to tell you something funny about it, though, because you know that I worked on designing that box, that black box that it comes in, and I get so stoked when it comes every month. Like, I'm like, oh, how cute. Like, it's like, I didn't. I've, like, I've never seen it. Oh, this is adorable. What a cute piece of meal.

[Ashley]

Yay.

[Emily]

It, like, gives me so much joy.

[Ashley]

I do the same thing with the website, but thinking about you, I'm like, look at this website. Like, well, I had nothing to do with this, but it looks fantastic day.

[Emily]

Gosh. Well, we hope you're all coming to retreat. We apologize if you are offended by our talk about religion or natural gas. Maybe that's your profession. I'm so sorry. It doesn't mean we don't love those who are religious, because clearly I was telling you about all these conversations with my friends. I. I do. I just like to share my perspective because we all think we're right, don't we?

[Ashley]

Thanks for listening.

[Emily]

For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club.

[Ashley]

Happy reading.