5 Things Marketers Need to Stop Believing (Feat. Joanna Wallace)

Summary

Podcast Title: Brain Driven Brands
Host: Sarah Levinger
Episode: 5 Things Marketers Need to Stop Believing (Feat. Joanna Wallace)
Release Date: August 14, 2025

---

Introduction

In this engaging episode of Brain Driven Brands, host Sarah Levinger is joined by returning guest Joanna Wallace to delve into the evolving landscape of marketing beliefs. Together with co-host Nate, they unpack the outdated notions that modern marketers need to abandon to stay ahead in the competitive e-commerce arena. The discussion is candid, humorous, and rich with actionable insights, making it a must-listen for marketers seeking to refine their strategies.

---

1. The Shift from Emotional to Logical Marketing

Timestamp: [03:03]

Sarah kicks off the conversation by addressing a significant shift she's observed in marketing strategies. Traditionally, emotional and identity-focused marketing has been a cornerstone for many brands. However, Sarah shares her recent frustration with a travel-related brand where emotional marketing failed to resonate despite her extensive experience with similar brands.

• Sarah: "I've worked for, like, 150 some brands over the course of the last four years. This is the one brand I can't get emotion to hit on, and it's making me upset." [03:03]

Joanna and Nate chime in, suggesting that consumers may have already internalized the emotional aspects of certain products before reaching the brand's ecosystem. This implies that marketers might need to pivot towards facilitating faster, more logical decision-making processes.

• Joanna: "I think we're all a little bit dead inside. Maybe emotion doesn't work anymore." [04:31]
• Sarah: "Sometimes your customers have front loaded the emotion so much that like they don't need convincing when they get to your ecosystem." [05:09]

---

2. Understanding Customer Intent and Behavior

Timestamp: [09:07]

Nate introduces a pivotal concept: customers often purchase based on subconscious emotions that they can't explicitly articulate. Reflecting on his own purchasing behavior, he realizes that many purchases are driven by underlying emotions rather than logical reasoning.

• Nate: "I used to think that customers knew why they were buying things, and I think very often they don't. No, not in the moment and, like, not consciously." [08:42]

Sarah echoes this sentiment, emphasizing that as marketers, understanding the deeper, often unspoken motivations behind consumer behavior is crucial.

• Sarah: "I'm more emotion everywhere. We should all be like in our fifi's all the time." [05:09]

---

3. The Evolution of Attention Spans in the Digital Age

Timestamp: [24:31]

The discussion shifts to the topic of attention spans in an era dominated by platforms like TikTok and the rise of long-form content such as podcasts. Joanna raises an interesting paradox: while short-form content demands quick engagement, there's also a growing appetite for in-depth storytelling.

• Joanna: "So what is that divide of we suddenly have so much attention and so little at the same time?" [23:20]

Nate counters the common belief that attention spans are diminishing, arguing that attention is more about engagement intensity and intent rather than duration.

• Nate: "I think attention is intent. That's all it comes down to." [25:33]

This leads to a broader understanding that marketers need to tailor their content strategies based on the context and the audience's intent at any given moment.

---

4. The Importance of Authenticity and Presentation in Branding

Timestamp: [19:23]

The conversation delves into the significance of brand presentation, particularly regarding punctuation and typographical accuracy. Joanna shares her personal struggle with balancing perfection in marketing materials versus embracing a more authentic, "native" look that resonates with consumers.

• Joanna: "I personally lose trust in a brand when I see sloppiness like that." [21:43]

Sarah and Nate discuss the fine line between maintaining professionalism and adopting a more relaxed, relatable brand voice. They highlight examples where deliberate imperfections can sometimes enhance authenticity and connection with the audience.

• Nate: "I think there's a way to speak that people are used to communicating in without, like, deliberately making typos and shit." [19:54]
• Sarah: "If it's coming from the brand page, button it up. From the consumer side, fuck it up." [20:44]

---

5. Adapting Marketing Strategies to Cultural and Economic Shifts

Timestamp: [28:26]

In the concluding segment, Sarah emphasizes the necessity for marketers to remain adaptable, continuously evolving their strategies in response to cultural, societal, and economic changes. The trio discusses the importance of not clinging to outdated practices and being open to innovation.

• Sarah: "Marketing changes. It shifts depending on what's in the market... So your job is to continuously evolve." [28:10]

Joanna likens this adaptability to fashion trends, noting how initial resistance can give way to acceptance and adoption over time.

• Joanna: "It's kind of like fashion trends to me. The first few times I see it, this is hideous. And then I've seen it enough where I'm like, I could get those dad shoes I could wear." [29:28]

---

Notable Quotes

• Sarah Levinger: "We cry on this podcast sometimes, only rarely when we're just kind of fed up and done." [00:53]
• Nate: "So we measure this kind of... RPM revenue per thousand impressions or thousand views." [26:26]
• Joanna Wallace: "My dog that keeps coming into frame, he's sold life insurance. He's been in ads before, and he also has decided that he agrees with us." [28:37]

---

Conclusion

This episode of Brain Driven Brands offers a deep dive into the shifting paradigms of modern marketing. Sarah, Joanna, and Nate provide valuable insights into the move from emotion-driven to logic-supported strategies, the nuanced nature of customer attention and intent, and the critical need for authenticity and adaptability in branding. By challenging long-held beliefs and embracing the ever-evolving market dynamics, marketers can better navigate the complexities of today's consumer landscape.

For more insights and to follow Joanna Wallace, visit LinkedIn, Twitter, or her consulting business Creativerx Consulting. To connect with Sarah Levinger, follow her at @TetherInsightsIO.

---

Join us next time on Brain Driven Brands as we continue to explore the cutting-edge strategies that drive 9-figure brands to success.

Transcript

[Nate]

Welcome back to Brain Driven Brands. We are gonna have a great episode today because we've got the normal co host, Sarah.

[Sarah]

I'm the co host.

[Nate]

Okay, you're the host. I think last time we decided I'm. I'm a premium co host. And then we have. I hate to. Hate to put her down right away, but I think she's got to be a step below me because she's not on the podcast every week.

[Joanna]

That's true. And twice. This is my lucky third time.

[Nate]

Right. Yeah. I've been on it, like, 94 times, so, like, we don't have to compare, but I've been on it a lot. So. Anyways, Joanna. Wallace. What's going on? How are you, Wallace?

[Sarah]

Welcome to the show.

[Joanna]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Always love to be here. If you hear crying, that's my dog and my soul, but mostly my dog, and I'm very sorry.

[Nate]

That's okay.

[Sarah]

We cry on this podcast sometimes, only rarely when. When we're just kind of fed up and done or. Or possibly if Scotty is chastising us for something. Just like. I'm excited to have you, though, because I don't ever get to, like, physically be in the same room with humans anymore, so it's nice. I'm like. We're, like, right here. We're like, yeah, five inches away, and it's losing. Get ready, Nate, because this is just gonna be, like, girl talking.

[Nate]

That's fine. Yeah. I'm a thousand miles away, but that's all right. We'll figure it out. South Carolina.

[Joanna]

Very nice. Very timid.

[Sarah]

What is the. What's the South Carolina like? Tagline? You know how, like, the Florida is, like, the Sunshine State?

[Nate]

Yeah. I don't know. Probably, like, bootleg moonshine and unregistered firearms.

[Sarah]

Accurate. That checks out. That's on brand for.

[Nate]

So I'm guessing.

[Sarah]

I'm excited.

[Joanna]

You're dressing very South Carolina. I should have, like. You really are representing.

[Nate]

Yeah. If you guys are watching the video. Sorry for this. I was just out doing yard work and wearing this and then had to come in. So. On this episode of Camouflage Commerce Professional.

[Joanna]

I can't even see you blending in.

[Sarah]

Did you even show up in this podcast? Okay, before we jump in here, though, I. I kind of want to tell people that I figured something out this week, and I had an experience that was new for me that is kind of pissing me off and making me upset and I might quit my job. So everybody wants to know about that. That's all we're gonna Talk about.

[Nate]

Is it because you realized I'm better at writing copy than you are?

[Sarah]

So far? No. That is yet to be seen. I keep waiting for you to beat my particular headline for your gifting audience, but I don't know if we've tried that.

[Joanna]

Oh, gifting audience. That's actually not a bad thing to talk about. I have theories on that.

[Sarah]

Gifting.

[Joanna]

Yeah, we're getting. We're getting into crunch time, guys.

[Sarah]

Like, oh, so true. What is it? Today's August 8th.

[Joanna]

It's August, man. That's when you start planning for Q4.

[Nate]

112 days till black Friday. I looked it up this morning.

[Sarah]

Are you actually counting them? Geez, I tried not to until we get to about September. And then I'm like, all right.

[Joanna]

I feel like it's a countdown clock to, like, the end of the world. You know what? There's two minutes until the end of the world.

[Sarah]

Get ready.

[Nate]

We're all.

[Joanna]

I think we're at, like, 20 seconds. Never mind. We're like, we're not good. It's not going well.

[Sarah]

It's 118 some days till our nervous breakdown. That's definitely gonna happen. Okay, so today I want to talk about old. Old thought process. Are old things that you used to think about marketing that, like, you just don't believe in anymore. Like, things that you used to just staunchly. This is what I know about marketing that all of a sudden, in the last, like, 18 months, because AI or tariffs or whatever reason is just not a thing, because I've experienced one brand this week where I tried to use my normal, like, emotional, very, like, identity focused, very deep style marketing. It doesn't work for that one brand. And I've worked for, like, 150 some brands over the course of the last four years. This is the one brand I can't get emotion to hit on, and it's making me upset. So anyways, I want to hear from you.

[Joanna]

Does the product not elicit any emotion?

[Sarah]

Well, this is the.

[Nate]

No, it should. Yeah, it should.

[Joanna]

Like, it's the Without.

[Nate]

Without saying the brand name. Like, it's a thing that helps you commemorate great times you've had traveling experiences. Like, it should be a thing that evokes emotion and responds well to emotion. But it doesn't.

[Sarah]

It doesn't.

[Joanna]

I think we're all a little bit dead inside. I think. I think the past. I think, like, the past 10 years or five years, like, we've all steadily been like. Like, just falling apart. And like, I think, like, now with tariffs also, and it's like, I don't know, I think we're a little dead inside. Maybe emotion doesn't work anymore.

[Sarah]

The weird part about this brand is even four years ago, because I've worked with them for quite a long time. Even four years ago, I tried to test new static ads, all emotionally focused inside the ad account. They're in like travel industry. So it makes sense. Like people are making very emotional experiences around it. And it didn't hit four years ago. It also doesn't hit today. And I'm like, this doesn't make. It doesn't compute. So one thing Sarah's thing that I'm learning this week is sometimes your customers have front loaded the emotion so much that like they don't need convincing when they get to your ecosystem. And that's new for me because I'm like more emotion everywhere. We should all be like in our fifi's all the time. Yeah.

[Nate]

So you think like the emotion has already happened.

[Sarah]

Yes, that's what I think is happening is they've already convinced themselves they want something like this. The site just needs to get them to where they want to go faster.

[Joanna]

They're at the point of logic, not the point. Yeah, well, it's just. Yeah. Like I remember when I was shopping for engagement rings because it was during COVID and I was creating a Google document of you know what I was going. He just went with the example and I was like, that's fine. So it was at the top of the page. But I remember like I intentionally scroll down.

[Nate]

The first one's fine.

[Joanna]

That one, I, I was, I mean I intentionally searched it because then I wanted all the ads to come to me. I was like, I'm not doing Google research. Like, yes, but I already was emotionally invested in my own engagement. And this point I was like, we are talking design and we are talking price point and like I'm not here to f. My gosh. You can't tell me to love my husband more like. Or my boyfriend.

[Nate]

So do we think like we all agree that like you purchase on emotion then justify with logic. Right. Do we think just for some categories like the brand doesn't come in until the back half of that process?

[Sarah]

Yeah, I think that's what's happening. So great example with engagement rings. De Beers is very emotionally focused and has been for a very long time because they had that ad that was running like a diamond is forever. But the problem was the interesting part was a diamond is forever was not running towards the female audience because you were already invested in the ring, it was running towards the male audience because males weren't invested in the ring.

[Joanna]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

No emotional, like, thing about their ring. Like, my husband's about to buy two new rings from Ridge, which I just think is funny. Casey.

[Nate]

It's just e commerce marketer's dream.

[Sarah]

It's so ridiculous.

[Nate]

Just 35, retired, disposable income.

[Joanna]

He just hit that new category. Yeah, he's in it.

[Sarah]

He's in it to win it. So shout out to Sean.

[Joanna]

It's amazing, by the way, totally off topic. When you turn 35 or you turn an age that takes you into a new, like, algorithmic bracket.

[Sarah]

Yes.

[Joanna]

I turned 35, and I was like, life insurance.

[Sarah]

Would you ask Life insurance, car insurance.

[Joanna]

Stop drinking because I'm having hangovers.

[Sarah]

All of those, like, products that are like, hey, cure your hangover now. I'm like, I never got this at 20. You were just marketing alcohol to me at 20. And now I get the, like, carry your hangover.

[Joanna]

It's like, did we you up in your 20s?

[Nate]

Do you know what's crazy about the age thing? I'm still 29, aren't I? So young, guys. You guys are getting pretty old, obviously, but, yeah, I'm super young.

[Joanna]

I'm still 29.

[Nate]

Too wildly successful for my age.

[Sarah]

I'm not. Guys, I'm gonna be 37 here in a few months.

[Nate]

Yeah, that's basically 40.

[Sarah]

Okay. Years. Gather wisdom. We're gonna say that. So we're very wise.

[Joanna]

And as long as you have Botox, no one can tell that you've gathered that wisdom. It's a surprise.

[Sarah]

Hide your wisdom.

[Joanna]

Hide your wisdom, but have it on you.

[Nate]

Hide your wisdom would be the worst advertising campaign for Botox of all time.

[Joanna]

I don't know, man. I think that would do.

[Sarah]

Hide your wisdom. Oh, that would crust, actually. Okay. All right, so now I want to hear used to think was a thing that's now, like, evolving, because mine is not. I'm not gonna go away from emotion, but I do think that there's some brands that like. It may. You may have that point already.

[Nate]

So I've got one.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Nate]

I used to think that customers knew why they were buying things, and I think very often they don't. No, not in the moment and, like, not consciously. Like when. When we first started working together at og like, the crux of why a guy buys a watch for himself is because he's insecure, like, always.

[Joanna]

Why?

[Nate]

Like that. Like, that's. That's part of it for sure. And, like, I've looked at my own past purchase history and realized, like, oh, I bought that because I was overcompensating. Or, like, I bought that because I was very stressed out. And I think, like, I used to speak in our marketing, like, to the needs that guys would articulate and, like, guys that, like, the. The conscious reasons why. So, yeah, I just used to thought, like, customers were a reliable source of, like, why'd you buy? What do you like about it? And it's like, no, you gotta dig way deeper than that surface level as.

[Sarah]

A marketer because you see the behaviors. It's like they're clearly walking through a process. Obviously they know what they're doing. But you get to the end and you study enough humans, and it's like, people don't know what they're doing. I don't know what I'm doing. Like, oftentimes I'll just go get, like, cheeseburgers because I'm stressed out and I just want to eat something that has a lot of fat in it. I don't want to do this logically, but emotionally, sure, it's fine in the moment. I'm not going to regret this tomorrow when I feel like crap. Yeah, that's interesting. How long ago do you think it was that you thought that was it.

[Joanna]

A year?

[Nate]

Three years.

[Sarah]

Oh, okay. Three years. I was like, wow. Actually, more recently. Yeah, I agree with that.

[Nate]

I think I've noticed it in myself more this year.

[Sarah]

How you market.

[Joanna]

Yeah, okay.

[Sarah]

How so?

[Nate]

Has to do with a lot of the, like, the when stuff we've talked about. Like, when a guy is. Is primed to buy and not Father's Day or Christmas, but talking about, like, his personal life and accomplishment and needs and failures and, like, whatever he's going through. Like, because to me, like, that, like, that's where so much of my purchasing behavior comes from. It's like, what happened that week?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Nate]

If I had a shitty week and then I ran up an expensive bar tab on Friday, it's like, oh, well. Yeah, like, that's why. Or if I had an awesome week and then bought myself something I've been eyeing for months and months and months, and it was kind of expensive. And then I'm on a hot streak and I'm like, you know what? I'm buying it. That has to do with, like, you know, original grains blended return on ad spend for the last 30 days more than it has to do with, like, you know, Stetson's marketing team that sold me a cowboy hat. No, it's terrible, but it's Real, you know what I mean?

[Sarah]

Like your metrics inside your job is causing you to consume more outside.

[Joanna]

I hate that though. Like, I'll be scrolling and I'll just be like, damn, you're good.

[Sarah]

Yeah, there it is.

[Joanna]

Like, that is.

[Sarah]

Gotta have it.

[Joanna]

First of all, sometimes I'm just like, that's a great ad. I'm not in the mood, but props to you. And then sometimes I'm like, damn, that's a great ad.

[Sarah]

I need to reward you company.

[Joanna]

I need to click through. This is a good one.

[Sarah]

Oh, that happens to me all the time. That was super. Casey a lot too, actually. That's hilarious though. And then you notice in your own behavior, I'm like, marketers, you are consumers. You're a consumer and a marketer at the same time. You know, this is happening to you. You're just not sitting and thinking about it a lot that I, I think that when is like critical though, because for instance, I'm dating myself here. My husband and I are about to celebrate our 15th year anniversary next year.

[Joanna]

You were like a child.

[Sarah]

I was a child.

[Nate]

How old were you?

[Sarah]

I was 22.

[Nate]

I was 23. You weren't that young. You're just.

[Sarah]

I didn't think I was like, I was like, 22 is a bait. Well, now I'm like, my children better not get married. 20, 22. We had no idea what we were doing. That's so really.

[Nate]

I hope my daughter gets married at 22.

[Sarah]

Really?

[Nate]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Why?

[Nate]

Because I know a lot of single 30 year olds that are very sad.

[Sarah]

It's very hard to get married as you get older. We could probably do a whole podcast on dating.

[Joanna]

You're also in the South. I feel like there's a bit of a culture there because like all my friends, like, I've only lived in major cities until I moved to like a freaking farm. And it was like everyone was single for years. And then all my friends, you know, other places interesting, they get married at like 40, like older, like 30s, like late, like mid to later 30s. Like I only went to like two 20s weddings and maybe that was because I like had no friends or something.

[Nate]

But like, oh, yeah, that's a cultural thing because here everyone's like, yeah, by 25.

[Sarah]

I was gonna say every. Everybody I knew was married by 25. Yeah, yeah, fascinating. Okay. But that's okay. Back, back to marketing. So the reason Casey wants to look at Ridge rings is because he's like 15 year anniversary. This is like big milestone. Rich should get new rings. Like, we should get You a new setting, which is great for me because I've had this since I was 22, and it does not fit me anymore because I'm, like, not fit, like, physical fit, but, like, now I only wear gold jewelry. I don't wear silver, except for my watch, which, Because I have a very nice watch, Nate. So in general, though, this. When would not have happened had we not hit 15.

[Joanna]

That's why I'm looking forward to big anniversaries, because I'm like, more jewelry.

[Sarah]

It's time. You have to have it. It's a milestone we should celebrate.

[Joanna]

That's really funny. I think another. Another time, though, like, going back to what. Where people are in their life. I feel like vacation is also when you treat yourself. I think that's more order.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Joanna]

But I think that, like, there's that dichotomy between I just spent a ton of my vacation, and I probably should be good. But then there's also, like, live a little.

[Sarah]

Yes, I would like.

[Nate]

What's an extra 400 bucks after a big vacation bill? You know, you're like, ah, whatever.

[Joanna]

My flight was a thousand. What is this dollar shoe, Right? It's a memory from my trip.

[Nate]

There you go. We did run maybe two years ago, we ran a summer vacation sale. And at the time, we had watches. We discontinued them, but we had a collection that was, like, kind of regional specific, using, like, wood types from the Rockies or from Appalachia. And, like, it did pretty well.

[Sarah]

That's crazy. A summer vacation sale because everyone goes.

[Nate]

On vacation, like, July or August, you know?

[Sarah]

Yeah. I was gonna say it's too late now in the summer, I think, to do it, but, yeah, that'd be interesting. Okay, so for you. Yeah, I would agree with that. Like, yeah, consumers are. They're not as savvy to their own behavior as you think they are. Do you have one? I want to hear yours.

[Joanna]

God. Mine is, like, really small and stupid. I've been, like, trying to listen to you guys and also wreck my brain and think about trying to do both of these. Oh, God.

[Nate]

In case any listeners thought that we planned this episode more because there's another guest here. No, no, no, no, no, no. Off the top.

[Joanna]

I feel like. Oh, God. And it's okay. Let me preface this by saying I did that thing where I asked chat GPT to, like, be brutal with me the other day and be like, what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? Do not give me fluff. Do you not compliment me? Like, I love that.

[Nate]

I don't hate myself. Enough to do that.

[Sarah]

I do it all the time. Mostly just because I want to see if Chat understands this is a test.

[Joanna]

Because I know that, like, Claude and Gemini don't know me well yet. But, like, Chat and I are, like, past the honeymoon phase. So, like, I don't wear makeup with Chat anymore. So I asked Chat this, and it was like, you don't believe in yourself, and you actually do know what you're talking about.

[Sarah]

And I was like, that's every market. I mean, it happens so easily for marketers.

[Joanna]

They're like, you are expert. Stop doubting it. Thank you. And then it got into what my flaws were, and mostly it was micromanagement.

[Sarah]

That's important at some level, but it.

[Joanna]

Was basically like, you have ocd. I'm going to diagnose you, and, like, you need to chill.

[Sarah]

Oh, my gosh.

[Joanna]

No, it didn't say that. I mean, my therapist said that. But so what I really was realizing about that and what I've been realizing for a while and it's been very hard for me to, like, unclench and let go and is the there's a dog is correct punctuation. Oh, that. It bothers you not misspelling things?

[Sarah]

No.

[Joanna]

So I've always been like, when I review people's stuff or I do my own stuff, I'm not saying you need to use full sentences, because I'm not stupid, but, like, you, Like, I really cared about making sure that, you know, everything looked. Oh, my God, that dog. That. Everything was, like, grammatically correct and everything was accurate, and there were no, like, ways for you as a consumer to poke holes and be like, there's their sloppy brand. They didn't remember to put that period in.

[Sarah]

Interesting. People talk about the fact I should come over here. People talk about the fact that Ms. Punctuation. Is that a word? Ms. Punctuation. Things increases, like, engagements and all kinds of.

[Joanna]

That's what I'm saying is that I clung to my compulsions of putting together something perfect and have really had to, like, back off. And, like, I'll review people's, you know, native ads, and I'll be like, nice job, typo. And I'm like, don't do it, Joanna. Don't do it, Joanna. Let them have their typo. So that's been a really hard lesson for me, and I'm still learning it.

[Sarah]

I think that.

[Joanna]

I swear to God, he's like, I want to be involved, too.

[Sarah]

I think it's interesting because as this might be a millennial thing or, like, old millennial Young Gen Xer. But I remember being in school and our teachers were like, you didn't cross that T. Like, get it back, dude. Go back and redo it again. Do the whole thing. You screwed up your entire project. Well, it was, it was a.

[Nate]

It was the 1940s.

[Sarah]

So, no, this was. What do they call those? Not comic. Comic Corps was the school we went to. Oh, my gosh. It has a specific name.

[Joanna]

Oh, Montessori.

[Sarah]

No. And it starts with the C. Oh, this is terrible. I can't remember what school I went to.

[Joanna]

Quaker school, so you can't beat that.

[Sarah]

Nice. They didn't beat you down for stuff like that. If I didn't dot an I, my teacher would go back and make me redo the whole thing.

[Joanna]

Quakers are very. They're pacifists. They're not going to hurt you just with their words.

[Sarah]

Okay, this is what I'm saying, though. I personally believe we grew up in this weird time period of life where it was important that you had good punctuation, that you used the correct comma, that, like, colons were very seriously considered before you go through and write your whole entire process now. And I'm worried about this now. I'm not entirely sure that it's beneficial from an engagement standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, for you to look polished because it looks like it comes from AI. So we're per. And we can talk all about AI, but it looks like it's done on purpose.

[Nate]

Well, and I think. I think, like, social and digital media has deteriorated the quality of.

[Joanna]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Written words that we consume. And like, for me, I always think about, like, how do I make this look native? Like, how do I make this look like something you are used to seeing on your phone? And capital letters to start the sentence and periods and colons, like, are not what people are used to communicating with right now.

[Sarah]

Do you think that we should do more of that then? Should we lean into spelling errors, punctuation errors?

[Nate]

No, I think it's hacky. And marketers should, if it go up and find a better way to get attention. But, like, I think there's a way to speak that people are used to communicating in without, like, deliberately making typos and shit.

[Joanna]

And that's like saying the phrase wrong. Like, I feel like, sweep it under the rug. It's, it's, it's funny, actually. My favorite thing on watching reality shows is to see how many common phrases people screw up and how they screw them up. So it's like, brush it under the rug, shove it under the rug, like, yeah, cracks me up. But I feel like that's the time where you may want to use that phrase improperly, but the way that people speak and use it not, you know, for all intensive purposes, because that's just the part. But I feel like the way I see it, although what your comment about AI is now making me rethink myself. But it's like, if it's coming from the brand page, button that shit up. If it's coming from an influencer or like you've whitelisted or partnerships or whatever.

[Sarah]

Messy.

[Joanna]

Messy. We just put out an ad with one of the companies I'm working with and the guy delivered it and it had just really. It was really dark. Like the lighting was not good and it was. We had him fix the lighting and like correct it in post and then it was kind of blown out, but the product was more visible. And honestly I, I would have been like, in my head, I'm like, reshoot, reshoot, reshoot. I'm like, no, this looks so native. Like, this looks like this dude just shot this and is not a professional. And that's perfect. But so, yeah, so I, I always feel like, button up from the brand, fuck it up from, from the consumer side. But this AI thing is now making me reconsider that. But I also think it has to do with what your product is. So when I was at xCloud, it was like, we're trying to make you want to buy a thousand dollar cookware set.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Joanna]

If I can't get my ad to have the perfect margins and appropriate punctuation, why would you trust that my pan isn't going to fall apart? And I understand those are different departments and completely unrelated, but I personally lose. Monty, stop growling. That's a nice dog. I personally lose trust in a brand when I see sloppiness like that. But at this but. And I'm a Persona, so even if other people don't care, I am still a Persona and probably a educated one who has, you know, a job with money because I am so compulsive about my grammar.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Joanna]

But anyway, interesting.

[Nate]

No, we see that with watches too. Like, I think that's why our like, high production photography works so well because, like UGC just can't communicate the value of the watch I'm trying to get you to spend $500 on. But we've also seen the same thing with influencers where, like, we worked with a big comedian this year. Like, he's on Netflix. He, he's his podcast Is huge.

[Sarah]

The ad read was, plug, Jesus, we're amazing. And I just had this guy and he's everywhere.

[Nate]

And no, but the. But, but the ad read was like a little dicey. And like he held up a watch and said it was a different one. Like it was the wrong one. He like kind of stumbled through some of the bullet points we gave him. But I was like, you know what? Run it. That's how he talks to his audience. Run it. Crushed. Crushed super hard.

[Sarah]

Because, like, you want it to be pre, like creamy, pristine, amazing. But I guess if that's how he talks with Z, it's clearly it did well. Yeah, man.

[Joanna]

Can I pivot slightly? Because I actually have a question for you guys. Okay, so I want to know your theory on. I feel like our attention spans have been split so obviously with TikTok and modern life. We all have like two seconds of brain power, of attention span. So we're all like quick cuts and flashy. Ooh, something shiny, you know, like. Yeah, that's how we've been taught with best practices. However, with the rise, I feel like, of podcasts and then, you know, filmed podcasts that go on YouTube, I feel like there's this openness to rambling and not getting to the point for a while or just taking a really long time and taking your time with it and breaking all the best practices rules to tell your story. So, like, again, for one of my clients, there's like two minute long video of this guy talking about the product crushed. And to me, I'm like, I don't understand. If nobody has an attention span, why are they listening to this guy drone and drone and drone. So what is that divide of we suddenly have so much attention and so little at the same time?

[Nate]

Actually, I, like, I firmly stand against when people say, like, people's attention spans have gotten shorter. I don't think that's true at all. Because, yeah, three hour Rogan episodes aren't struggling to get views.

[Joanna]

The thing I used to think and now I think so.

[Nate]

The way that I think about it, I don't think attention is like either short or long or on or off. I think it's like a spectrum of like when I'm scrolling on TikTok before bed, I'm barely engaged with what I'm looking at. It's just like a mindless thing. But when I put on a movie that, like, I'm excited to watch, or an hour long podcast that I'm putting on YouTube on my TV, like my, my senses are at a 10 I'm dialed into every word and phrase that they are saying. So I think about it less like short or long and more about like how engaging is it? Like how. I don't know. What's the. I don't know, like, intensity of the attention.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Joanna]

And are you primed in that moment to have an attention span?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Right.

[Sarah]

It's a when issue.

[Joanna]

It's always the when issue.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Weird. Because we're context creatures. Like, you have to. It's situational. It's 100 situational. So everybody thinks that like all of the attention on Tick Tock is. Is like teeny tiny and people don't have capacity for it. Which is true. But that's only because Tick Tock as prime people to believe that.

[Nate]

Yeah. Those. So like those same people on Tick Tock will scroll for an hour, see a clip from a pod, then go to YouTube and watch an hour and a half long episode and be locked in. So it's not people, it's.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Where they are. Yeah.

[Sarah]

It comes down to intent.

[Joanna]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Because.

[Joanna]

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting because. Yeah. If you are looking, oftentimes you're looking for a podcast, you don't just stumble. Except for the example you're giving. You don't just stumble upon a long podcast. So when I'm. It's like flipping channels versus intentionally going to watch a program.

[Sarah]

It's interesting. Tick Tock is like infomercials, but if you find something you want to watch, you'll flip to that exact channel. Remember this, in the 90s, you don't because you're a baby. But in the 90s, girls, girls, girl. And then if you hit something you liked, you'd sit there and watch the whole program.

[Nate]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Attention is intent. That's all it comes down to.

[Nate]

So we measure this kind of. We measure RPM revenue per thousand impressions or thousand views. And like Facebook, a good RPM for us is like 25 bucks. When we were advertising on TikTok years ago, it was like a $4 RPM. It sucked super bad. But we work with some YouTube creators that are getting $500 RPMs and thousand dollar RPMs. So to me, like, that measures like audience density and like audience intent more than just the numbers. Because I'd rather sponsor a creator with a thousand views on YouTube than 80,000 500,000 on Instagram. Like it just does. It doesn't compare at all to the value with an intent audience.

[Sarah]

Oh, this is such a good conversation. I want to keep going with this, but we're. We've already Been going on this one podcast for forever.

[Joanna]

So it's a really quick question, because this podcast is disorganized and raw and ugly. Will it do better than one that.

[Nate]

Came with a specific people who listen to this podcast consistently? Yeah, like, they'll fight through it if this is the first episode you're. You're watching. Maybe not. Maybe we lost you by now. But, like, customers, but, like fans of the show, like, appreciate the disorganized of it. They love when I rip on Sarah because she's, like, 48, or however old she is. They love that. They think that's a fun bit.

[Joanna]

That's what you're.

[Nate]

Oh, that. Oh, that's right. She's 56, but she's 4 foot 8, right?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

I got a lot of things going for me, people. I'm clearly amazing. Yeah. Oh, okay. Should we. I don't even know. How do we summarize all of this? So don't believe everything you think as a marketer.

[Nate]

Yeah. Be willing to change your mind. Hey, look at us. Three marketing personalities that are willing to change their mind. Wouldn't it be great if there was, like, one more of those? You know, just one. Just one of you. You change your mind about something once.

[Joanna]

I gotta tell you, my dog that keeps coming into frame, he's sold life insurance. He's been in ads before, and he also has decided that he agrees with us.

[Sarah]

That's our four marketers. Four marketers agree all in the same room. Change your mind, people. I don't think that marketing should stay static. I also don't know that we should. This could be a whole other episode. I don't know that you should take what happened in the 1920s and apply it to today and think that it's gonna work. Marketing changes. It shifts depending on what's in the market. Shifts depending on what's happening in the culture and in the society. It also shifts depending on what happens in the economy. So your job is to continuously evolve to whatever's coming up next and hopefully before it comes. That's the most important part. Yeah.

[Joanna]

Trying to spot it before you agree with it. Agree, like, track it. Oh, I don't agree with you yet. It's kind of like. It's kind of like fashion trends to me. The first few times I see it, this is hideous. And then I've seen it enough where I'm like.

[Sarah]

Like this.

[Joanna]

I could get those dad shoes I could wear. I'm never gonna wear my socks above my shoes.

[Nate]

Yep. Yeah. I'm wearing camo right now. I don't think I wore camo before three years ago.

[Sarah]

Oh my God.

[Nate]

And that's like part of my like a lot.

[Joanna]

Yeah, it's. It suits you.

[Nate]

The up. I don't care.

[Sarah]

Okay. Where can people find you, Joanna if they want to follow your journey, your journey through life and market?

[Joanna]

Heard you can find me on LinkedIn. Joanna Wallace parentheses Sloan with my. My consulting business Creativerx Consulting that has a little icon that's a bottle of ad morale. So I basically had to start consulting just because I thought of this logo and I got really excited. You can also find me on Twitter cause I won't call it x jo wall202 and you know everywhere, anywhere and.

[Sarah]

Everywhere that you can find her, go hire her. Joanna's amazing. You are amazing, amazing, amazing. You're single handedly built some of the best teams I've ever seen inside D2C. So go. And Nate's okay. He's cool too.

[Nate]

Yeah, I'm fine. I've got a podcast or whatever. It doesn't matter.

[Joanna]

I'm so much dog hair.

[Sarah]

Where can people find you natives. I want to work with you. Follow what you do.

[Nate]

The only people I want to come and work with me. By the way you always tee up my outro like if people want to work with you, what can they do? Come help me haul falling down trees on my property. That's the kind of work I'm getting. If you have any experience building fences, goats are coming in a month and I haven't built the fence yet. So no, that's the kind of work I need.

[Sarah]

That's probably smart. You need to go rent one of those augers that what they call them like dig learn that word from you Auger. Yeah, I, I didn't even know this was a thing. I. I don't know. People tell me things in random and my brain remembers them. Follow me at Sarah Levenger Anywhere you consume content. Check us out @Tether Insights IO if you guys need really just help on consumers understanding their psychology and applying it to your brand. Otherwise, thanks for joining Monty. Bye.

[Joanna]

Thanks for joining me. Sorry I cried the whole time.

[Sarah]

It was lovely. We had a great time.

[Nate]

Brain Driven Brands is part of the.

[Sarah]

Learn and Laugh series on the Quickfire.

[Joanna]

Podcast network and is presented by Tether Insights. For more information go to tetherinsights IO.