7 Customer Insights That Are Actually Holding Your Brand Back

Summary

Podcast Summary: Brain Driven Brands – Episode 7: "Customer Insights That Are Actually Holding Your Brand Back"

Introduction

In Episode 7 of Brain Driven Brands, host Sarah Levinger and co-host Nate Lagos delve deep into the misconceptions surrounding customer insights that inadvertently hinder brand growth. Released on December 31, 2024, this episode, titled "Customer Insights That Are Actually Holding Your Brand Back," unpacks seven critical insights that e-commerce brands often misinterpret or overvalue, leading to stalled progress and reduced profitability. Drawing from their extensive experience and recent studies, Sarah and Nate provide actionable strategies to overcome these pitfalls, ensuring brands can harness psychology-driven tactics effectively.

1. Overfixating on Click-Through Rate (CTR) and Return on Ad Spend (ROAS)

One of the primary discussions centers around the common industry obsession with metrics like CTR and ROAS at the individual ad level. Sarah emphasizes, "[...] every brand is different, every customer type is different, every journey is different" ([02:52]). Nate reinforces this by stating, "I don't care what those metrics say" ([04:10]). They argue that these metrics often fail to correlate with actual business performance. Instead, they advocate for tracking "real ROAS," which involves a blended ROAS by collection or SKU, providing a more accurate picture of profitability.

2. Misconception: Frequent Buyers Are Your Best Customers

Contrary to popular belief, Sarah and Nate challenge the notion that frequent buyers automatically represent the best customers. Sarah shares, "I do not think that frequent buyers are your best customers" ([08:26]). They suggest that high total spend and emotional connection to the brand are more indicative of valuable customers. Nate adds, "I'm way more profitable selling that $1,700 watch than I am selling three others" ([09:09]), highlighting the importance of focusing on high-value transactions over mere purchase frequency.

3. Overreliance on Surveys and Misreading Customer Feedback

The duo critiques the heavy dependence on surveys and focus groups, pointing out their limitations and potential to mislead brands. Sarah passionately states, "Please stop. [...] These are the customer insights that are actually holding your brand back" ([12:03]). They argue that surveys often fail to capture the subconscious motivations behind customer behavior. Instead, they advocate for behavioral data tracking, emphasizing actions over stated preferences. Nate concurs, highlighting the inaccuracies of traditional survey methods: "We should do a surveys episode [...] How did you hear about me? Stop."

4. Overvaluing Net Promoter Score (NPS)

NPS is another metric scrutinized in this episode. Sarah expresses frustration, saying, "These NPS scores drive me crazy because they are not indicative of behavior or emotional affinity towards your brand" ([16:19]). They argue that while NPS provides a quantitative measure of customer satisfaction, it fails to capture the underlying reasons behind customer loyalty or dissatisfaction. This superficial understanding can lead brands to misallocate resources based on incomplete data.

5. Misreading Pricing Sensitivity Metrics

Sarah and Nate discuss the pitfalls of misinterpreting pricing sensitivity. Sarah advises, "Misread what your customers feel about your prices [...] you're leaving money out there" ([17:15]). They emphasize that price sensitivity is highly contextual, influenced by factors like individual circumstances, seasonal trends, and overall market conditions. Nate shares their experience of raising prices while simultaneously increasing conversion rates, illustrating that rigid pricing strategies can be counterproductive.

6. Ignoring Post-Purchase Behavior

A groundbreaking insight from a recent study is explored, revealing that overly swift delivery times might increase customer churn due to lack of emotional attachment to the purchase. Sarah notes, "Early delivery or quick shipping of products might be doing more harm than good" ([19:06]). They suggest experimenting with longer shipping times to allow customers ample time to emotionally commit to their purchases, thereby reducing buyer's remorse and enhancing long-term loyalty.

7. Overreliance on Quantitative Metrics Without Understanding the 'Why'

The final insight addresses the industry's tendency to prioritize quantitative data without delving into the underlying reasons. Sarah criticizes the mantra "the data doesn't lie," arguing that data merely indicates what is happening, not why. She states, "Data is only telling us what's happening. [...] We need to track what's happening" ([21:56]). Nate adds, "Every little piece of your ecosystem has been set up to try and get someone to purchase, but [...] humans are irrational" ([23:17]). They stress the importance of qualitative insights and understanding human psychology to complement quantitative data.

Conclusions and Takeaways

Sarah and Nate conclude the episode by urging brands to rethink their reliance on conventional metrics and embrace a more nuanced understanding of customer behavior. Key takeaways include:

• Adopt Real ROAS Tracking: Move beyond CTR and traditional ROAS to track profitability by SKU or collection.

• Redefine Best Customers: Focus on high-value customers and those with strong emotional ties rather than just frequent buyers.

• Revamp Survey Strategies: Utilize behavioral data and subconscious indicators instead of solely relying on traditional surveys.

• Reevaluate Pricing Strategies: Understand the contextual nature of pricing sensitivity to optimize revenue without alienating customers.

• Monitor Post-Purchase Emotions: Balance shipping speed to foster emotional commitment and reduce buyer's remorse.

• Integrate Qualitative Insights: Combine quantitative data with deep psychological insights to fully grasp customer motivations and behaviors.

By addressing these seven flawed insights, brands can unlock new avenues for growth, enhance customer loyalty, and drive sustained profitability. Sarah and Nate's expert analysis provides a roadmap for e-commerce brands to navigate the complexities of consumer psychology, ultimately leading to more effective and resonant marketing strategies.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On Overfixating Metrics:
  Sarah Levinger ([02:52]): "Please stop over fixating on your metrics."

  Nate Lagos ([04:10]): "If I spent ten grand advertising this watch and we only sold ten grand of this watch, then the ads are not working."

• On Best Customers:
  Sarah Levinger ([08:26]): "I do not think that frequent buyers are your best customers."

  Nate Lagos ([09:09]): "I'm way more profitable selling that $1,700 watch than I am selling three others."

• On Surveys:
  Sarah Levinger ([12:03]): "Surveys are incredibly damaging to brands in general because they're run incorrectly."

  Nate Lagos ([13:53]): "They're running the same post purchase survey they've ran for the past 10 years."

• On NPS:
  Sarah Levinger ([16:19]): "NPS scores are not indicative of behavior or emotional affinity towards your brand."

• On Pricing Sensitivity:
  Sarah Levinger ([17:15]): "Misread what your customers feel about your prices [...] you're leaving money out there."

• On Post-Purchase Behavior:
  Sarah Levinger ([19:06]): "Early delivery or quick shipping of products might be doing more harm than good."

• On Quantitative Metrics:
  Sarah Levinger ([21:56]): "Data is only telling us what's happening. Something is happening."

  Nate Lagos ([23:17]): "Humans are irrational."

Final Thoughts

Episode 7 of Brain Driven Brands serves as a critical examination of the metrics and insights that many e-commerce brands mistakenly prioritize. Sarah Levinger and Nate Lagos offer a refreshing perspective, encouraging brands to look beyond surface-level data and delve deeper into the psychological drivers of customer behavior. By challenging conventional wisdom and advocating for a more integrated approach to data and psychology, they equip listeners with the tools needed to build more resilient and profitable brands.

Transcript

[Sarah Levinger]

Am I going?

[Nate Lagos]

I don't know.

[Sarah Levinger]

Don't do that to me. You just like throw it at me like, hey, go.

[Nate Lagos]

Welcome back to Brain Driven Brands.

[Sarah Levinger]

Now you're going.

[Nate Lagos]

Sarah Levinger in the studio with me. Nate Lego's here. We are the co hosts of this podcast. Sarah, what's up? How are you?

[Sarah Levinger]

See, this is what happens on a Friday. I just did a full NLP presentation which was great. It went really well. Also there's some smart brands out here. One, because they're working with me, but two, because there, there's some stuff happening in D2C this week and I have been watching it go down. I'm like, this is interesting.

[Nate Lagos]

People are in bad moods right now.

[Sarah Levinger]

I don't like conflict. I don't like conflict. Even in text based form, I don't like conflict. So I'm just like, do we have to be.

[Nate Lagos]

I think there's a mass missing of forecasts and missing of goals and people are taking it out on each other. I wouldn't know what that's like, but. Looks awful from the outside.

[Sarah Levinger]

It looks terrible. I wonder how that's going for brains. I mean, if you had a bad year, I do apologize. That's. It's terrible, man. D2C is a hard industry. Even the bigger players. I saw something, I think it was Ferris. Not Ferris, Geez, was it Taylor Holiday? So I can't remember. One of the big dudes was talking specifically about the fact that he's like, D2C is not what it used to be. This is a difficult industry. There's a lot of changes we've been through and man, the brands are hurting. So I'm so sorry if you had a bad year. But 20, 25, look it up for consumer behavior at least. There's a lot of really interesting trends that I'm tracking that are like, what the heck is going on over there? So I'm excited to talk about it today.

[Nate Lagos]

Dude, what are we talking about today?

[Sarah Levinger]

Okay, so today I actually went through chat and did a bunch of work. Like, you'll be proud of me. A bunch of work meaning like at least three minutes of work.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah. That's a lot to prep for an episode. That's more than I do. That's three minutes longer than I do.

[Sarah Levinger]

At least three minutes of work because I. Ok. Usually as you do in marketing, when you're doing any sort of content creation, you go back, you look at your metrics, you see which things were most popular and then you try and create more of that because that's obviously what your audience wants to see more of. So one of the things that chat came back was seven customer insights that are actually holding your brand back. Yeah. So I was like, oh. And then I was like, there's no way that Nate and I can do seven. This will be a five hour long episode. So I had it cut down to three.

[Nate Lagos]

Okay.

[Sarah Levinger]

I was like, we're going to talk for eight hours about all this.

[Nate Lagos]

We might speed run the last four. We'll see. I might bully you into that.

[Sarah Levinger]

All right. If you want to, that's fine. Very first one though, it just like chat just coming out. I'm like, oh, poetry snaps for this one. Very first thing. Insights that are holding your brand back. The first one is this ad isn't performing over fixating on click through rate or roas. What do you think about this?

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah. Oh, the dumbest metrics to look at are click through rate and roas at an AD Level 1. The theory of attrib. And it's. I don't. I don't even think that's a hot take anymore. I don't think people are coming around to it.

[Sarah Levinger]

It pains me because I wish it was. I really, truly wish that attribution was a thing, but I don't think it is. Just knowing what we know about humans and how they purchase things, there's no way that we could possibly know. Like, is this actually where they came from? Yeah, I don't know about that.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah, I think it's bs and then like, I've worked with agencies whose whole goal was like, we're going to optimize around click through rate and we see no correlation between the ads with the best click through rate and the ad that make us the most money.

[Sarah Levinger]

I think it's interesting too, because every brand is different, Every customer type is different, every journey is different. Shit, every week is different. Like, every time of the year is different. So there's just no way that we could all optimize for the same metric. That I find most interesting is the industry likes to like, what is the word? Prioritize specific metrics as the North Star. And I'm like, I don't know that that's how humans work. So in general, what are your favorite metrics? Do you want to share?

[Nate Lagos]

Yep.

[Sarah Levinger]

Which ones do you like? Oh, oh, yeah.

[Nate Lagos]

Well, dollars in the bank account.

[Sarah Levinger]

Hey, touche.

[Nate Lagos]

I mean, like for us, like we. So we track what we've been calling real roas for the last couple of years, which is essentially like a blended roas. By collection or buy sku. So if I'm trying to sell this watch, I'll look at like, hey, we spent ten grand advertising that watch. We sold forty grand worth of that watch. It's a good week. I'm happy I look at that before I ever go and look in the ad account.

[Sarah Levinger]

In the ad account. Yeah.

[Nate Lagos]

Because I don't care. Like, if I spent ten grand advertising this watch and we only sold ten grand of this watch, the something in the ads is not working. Right.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Lagos]

No matter what it says. And we've been tracking that weekly for two years across every major product and collection we have. And there is zero correlation between in platform data and what's actually happening in our business.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, so this. This is what I was going to say. Psychological fix. Right. So in the industry, we're constantly tracking all kinds of different things. Click through rate, hook rate, roas. Like, all these crazy things. Right. In general, for Sarah, I want to see brand lift. Like, I want to see all the boats rising now in the platforms because I know somebody's going to come after us and be like, well, what are you tracking then? You have to be tracking something. From the ad standpoint. There's very few things that I track. Mostly because, again, I'm. I'm watching what's happening outside the ad account more than inside the ad account. So in general, spend is a pretty good indicator of pretty decently healthy ad. Although that's not the only indicator. I like to see conversions. I want to see people buy, and I also want to see cheap, cheap customers. I got to see cheap customers on the back end. Otherwise, that ad, no matter how many conversions it's getting, if it costs me $10,000 to get somebody, there's no reason to run that ad anyway. In the ad account. What are you looking at? What are you tracking?

[Nate Lagos]

I mean, like, I look at everything, but I'm only making decisions based on that real ROAS number. So, like, what happens most commonly this year if that real ROAS number is bad? If I spent 10k advertising the this watch and sold 14k of it, I'm like, that's bad. I'll go the ad account and shut off the top spending ads for that.

[Sarah Levinger]

For that sku. Okay.

[Nate Lagos]

Because I'm like, all right, I don't care what those metrics say.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Lagos]

If, you know, I'm not profitable selling this watch, I'm gonna blame the ads that are taking the majority of our spend for that product.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, that's a hot take.

[Nate Lagos]

Turn Them off. Force Facebook to spend the other ads in that ad set, launch new ads and run it from there. But I really don't care what click. The rate. Yeah, cost per click, cpm, all that stuff matters in the aggregate. But that's not like how I'm making decisions. Scotty wants me to define real roas. Again, it is a blended ROAS by collection or by sku. So total revenue from a product divided by total ad spend.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep. So takeaway here for everybody who's listening. Please stop over fixating on your metrics. Please stop. The only thing I need you to do and we need you to do just from here on out, keep track by sku. Obviously that's an incredibly smart way to do that. I have not seen a lot of brands doing it that way, which is fascinating.

[Nate Lagos]

It blows my mind because everyone likes the blended roas. Like across the business. Everyone wants to operate on a mergle. I'm like why are you not doing this by collection or category or product?

[Sarah Levinger]

I don't get it. I don't get it. Because every product's going to bring in a different customer type and every customer type is going to have different behavior attached to the product.

[Nate Lagos]

So God, for, for us, like where we have watches that cost $179 and 700.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes.

[Nate Lagos]

Like I can't let CAC be my North Star because like I can have a $300 CAC for one watch that doesn't work for anything else. So that's why we look at caveat.

[Sarah Levinger]

Because again, Sarah just said, you know, I'm tracking customer costs but again it depends on what type of brand you have and how wide of a split you have on your pricing. That's massively important to call out. Okay. Second to this thing that I don't think that we should track any more metric wise, our customers like best customers are frequent buyers. I don't think this is always the case. I do not think that frequent buyers are your best customers. I don't think that's the case.

[Nate Lagos]

Would you say people who spend the most total are your best?

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Lagos]

Or people who tell their friends about it the most?

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, this one's a difficult one to define because it depends on the brand. I think it depends on the product and the brand. But in general I think we rely too much on customers who have recency or frequency inside their customer behavior. And I think we, we do too much on like that monetary segmentation. I think frequent buyers can also include like one time bargain hunters depending on the time of the year. So in general, I'd rather see customers who are emotionally connected to the brand, which are not always frequent buyers. Sometimes they're just like, high aov, But I purchase twice a year.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah, yeah, we see that too. That, that kind of ties back into, like, our wide price range. Like, I'm way more profitable selling that $1, 700 watch than I am selling three others. So, yeah, like, if you only want to buy from me once, but it's the most expensive thing we have, then you're worth more to me than other people.

[Sarah Levinger]

I want to see if there's, like, some tech or some SaaS that'll pop up around this. But so far, we track, like, attribution from influencers, right? So if you get an influencer on board, we're tracking to see how many customers they're bringing in based upon their specific code or whatever it is. We don't track to see how many customers our customers are bringing in. That I would find fascinating. Somebody go create a tool around this. Let's see if we can figure out a way to give a customer some, like, a code or something, right, that they can give to their friends that's specific to them. I think it gamifies it. It adds a little personalization, and it makes it very easy for us to track our best customers. Those are the people who are sharing the gospel, possibly without purchasing much, but are bringing in loads of revenue. You know what I'm saying?

[Nate Lagos]

Well, that's super interesting because the next thing I was going to say is make sure when you're trying to do the math to figure out who your best customers are, like, go like, LTV minus CAC minus your cost of goods, like, to figure out, like, hey, how much profit is this customer producing Over a year, two years, whatever. But adding in, like, but what if they told their mom about it and their mom's bought six watches since then? It's like, oh, well, that's not factored in anywhere. But that's a way better customer.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes, that's a way better customer because again, it looks like the mom is your best value customer.

[Nate Lagos]

Right?

[Sarah Levinger]

But she never would have been there had it not been for this one person who was so psychologically attached to the brand that they had to tell their mother about it and she just has more money or is a better shopper or, like, just likes shopping in general.

[Nate Lagos]

Well, like, that's super interesting because, like, and. And we run into this with the whole, like, gifting angle too. Like, going back to LEGO on the Last episode, Lego thinks my wife is their best customer. And I was like, no, it's all for me.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, my God.

[Nate Lagos]

It's all for me. Like. And I think that's really interesting.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, that blows my mind. Because technically speaking, you are their best influencer. She is their best customer. So we talk about this a ton. Split up your influencers of purchase from your actual. Like, purchasers don't put consumption in the same bucket as buy like buyer. Right?

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Levinger]

Because they're two totally different segments of your audience. I buy a crap ton of Legos, but they're all for Casey. I don't. I don't mess with Legos because I'm not a mechanical mind, but, man. Okay, so for og, it'd be fascinating if you could track that this year. Go back to your highest value customers and then ask them to introduce me to their husband. Exactly. Can I meet your husband? Like, can I.

[Nate Lagos]

Hey, ma'am, Is your husband home? Would love to have a drink with him.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah, that'd be so funny. Okay. Oh, we're doing good on time. Honestly. We might be able to get some more of these. So number three is the fallacy of we know what they want. Meaning we rely too heavily on surveys and focus groups.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Levinger]

Surveys in particular. This is something that. It hurts my heart because I run surveys for my brand, but. Or for my agency. But I'm. I'm very careful with how we run them. And again, we have to remember, like, these are the customer insights that are actually kind of holding your brand back. I think surveys are incredibly damaging to brands in general because they're run incorrectly.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah. And I think this is a great time to pause and introduce our sponsor, Tether Insights. If you guys aren't familiar, Sarah didn't know I'm doing this. She's not paying me to do this. Still don't get paid to be on this podcast, which is bullshit, but.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, my God.

[Nate Lagos]

Tether Insights, Sarah's new insight and research company that I've worked with for a couple years now, is fantastic. If you want to know how to find out what these insights are, Tether Insight sites IO That's a really good plug.

[Sarah Levinger]

This is why I bring you on here, because then I don't have to stuff.

[Nate Lagos]

There you go.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes.

[Nate Lagos]

I'll send you an invoice for that. Don't worry.

[Sarah Levinger]

As you should. But yeah, sorry, surveys. Okay.

[Nate Lagos]

Oh, yeah. I think surveys across the board are run incorrectly. You've taught me a lot about it. And then what's. What's always so funny? To me is like, I see brands that will run a survey for like, a week on post purchase, and then, like, that'll inform their entire branding strategy for next year. And it's like, well, hold on. Like, we're looking at seven days of data.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes.

[Nate Lagos]

With leading questions and not specific answers.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, my gosh.

[Nate Lagos]

And you're gonna be. We're gonna go invest millions of dollars into this strategy.

[Sarah Levinger]

It, like, increases my anxiety. I get, like, hives when I think about it. Because everybody's running the same post purchase survey they've ran for the past 10 years. And all of those questions were developed by somebody who. Who probably doesn't know anything about survey writing. And you got. So I talked to Brad today, actually earlier today, who told us specifically that they were trying to get data around which products they should develop next. So they asked their audience, do you want XYZ this product or this product? And the unfortunate part was they added a price onto the product selections, and they also added a name onto the products themselves. Do you want this type of fabric or do you want this type of fabric? So not only is the brain having to process the images of the actual fabric itself, it's processing the title of the fabric and a price attached to it. I was like, oh, dude.

[Nate Lagos]

Well. And like, I think all this goes back to a hot take I dropped in the pot a couple months ago. Don't listen to your customers. Watch your customer. Because, like, if. If Original Grain surveyed me and said we're thinking about launching cowboy hats and belt buckles and boots.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Lagos]

I'd be like, yeah, that sounds awesome. Do you know how many times in the last five years I've bought one of those items? Once.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, well. And again. And it's. Again, nothing against the brands who run surveys the way that they do, but this is the reason why at Tether, we run tutorial surveys. Because I. I don't trust what people say. That's not terrible. But I don't trust what people say. I trust what they do. So the closer you can get to what they actually subconscious, subconsciously believe through pictures, because the pictures elicit a subconscious emotional response, the better the data you will have. So in general, please, one, update your surveys. Like, don't just leave it on for five years and assume that that data is accurate. And then, like, two, for this, you have to track behavioral data. What they say is fascinating. What they do is actually what's important behavior.

[Nate Lagos]

We should do a surveys episode.

[Sarah Levinger]

We should, by the way, because I.

[Nate Lagos]

Feel like it's things where like, first of all, people running. How did you hear about me? Surveys. Stop. Put an upsell offer in place of it. You'll make more money. But let's do an episode on that.

[Sarah Levinger]

Okay. All right, we'll write that down. Seven customer insights that are holding your brand back. Number one, this insight overvaluing the NPS score. People love nps. You don't. Okay, good. Thank God you don't run nps. NPS stands for Net Promoter Score, and it basically means on a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you like us? On a scale of 1 to 10, how likely are you to recommend us to a friend? These NPS scores drive me crazy because they are not indicative of behavior or emotional affinity towards your brand, literally at all. They are a guest. Customers are like, six. Yeah. A lot of people are doing this eye roll says literally everything we need to know about that.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah, no comment on that one.

[Sarah Levinger]

Okay. Number two, which is technically number six or whatever. One. Misreading pricing sensitivity metrics so our customers only care about price. That's not true.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah. No, it's not.

[Sarah Levinger]

Fallacy.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah. And, like, I think price is so contextual.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Lagos]

To the individual, to the time of year, to the macroeconomic environment, to the product, to. What else is on that landing page? Like, we have raised our prices pretty aggressively, and at the same time, we've increased conversion rate. So, like, it's wild. And I think price is something that founders are always super sensitive on.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Lagos]

And there's absolutely no reason to be.

[Sarah Levinger]

Well, and I have. I have a few episodes on pricing, so if you want to learn how to do pricing correctly, Go watch those. Go listen to that.

[Nate Lagos]

I also have an episode on price testing on the tattoo podcast. So screw you.

[Sarah Levinger]

Go over there and listen to the tactical one and then listen to the psychological one. Yeah. The perceived value is. We need to do an entire episode on just perceived value.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Levinger]

How to generate it, how to do it wrong. Because most people are. And then what it's costing you. Because at the end of the day, if you risk misread what your customers feel about your prices just based upon what you think is happening. A seven, a nine, a four, a six. Like, you're. You're gonna. You're basically just, like, leaving money out there. A lot.

[Nate Lagos]

Leaving a lot of money out there.

[Sarah Levinger]

A lot of money out there. Okay. We're okay. Oh, this is another one that's really good. So another metric that I really wish that we would just kind of ignore is the metric wrapped around, like, the funnel is working so we, we basically just ignore post purchase behavior. And this is something I posted a tweet on this that we just found out from Science says shout out to Science says, I love what you're doing, Thomas McKinley. Go follow him. Oh, God. So this is a new study that talks about the fact that early delivery or quick shipping of products might be doing more harm than good. The fact that you can get it there in two days might be increasing churn because people are not emotionally attached to the purchase yet.

[Nate Lagos]

That's interesting.

[Sarah Levinger]

Blew my freaking mind. So they're talking about the fact that people logic themselves out of their purchase. Buyer's remorse happens within two days. Right. So within the first four, 48 hours.

[Nate Lagos]

Can I tell you how much that happens to me with software?

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes.

[Nate Lagos]

I signed up for software a couple weeks ago. We're paying to use it and they're sending me like daily updates of how it's going and it's going well, but I'm like, hey guys, stop talking to me. Like, if you really want me to analyze this, I'll poke holes in it.

[Sarah Levinger]

Please stop talking to me. Yes, it's a big deal. Such a big deal. And this one in particular, again, they're going to study it more obviously, because this is a really interesting study that came out and it was a lot. I mean, they studied thousands of purchases. But it goes back to. They haven't emotionally accepted their decision yet, so they're going to logic themselves out of it by the time it gets here. So try not to deliver it overnight if you can help it. Don't do it in day two. In fact, make them wait for it just slightly. I wonder what the, what the threshold is. So we'd have to test, is it three days shipping, is it five days shipping? But by that point in time, they either are getting hyped about it, meaning they've emotionally accepted about it like their decision, or they're regretting it.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah, well, there's been times where we're sold out of inventory because I'm really good at my job. Four months, like pre selling a watch that won't deliver for 90 days.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, that's crazy.

[Nate Lagos]

We, we do what we can. We probably could do it better to like hype them up along that journey of telling me, like, what stage of production it's in, going through quality checks, telling some stories about it. But like, how bad people want that watch on day 89 is insane. Like, they are so ready for it. Whereas, like, yeah, I needed something the other day, I bought on Amazon. It Got here tomorrow and it's like, yeah, I don't care that much about that thing. Even though it's a $200 thing.

[Sarah Levinger]

There's so much weird behavior behind waiting for things. Having to wait for something makes it psychologically painful. Right. Which is kind of what you want for specific products.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Levinger]

Depending on what they are. If they're commoditized product. Yes. Waiting actually is very, very lucrative when it comes to finding a good partner, because the more you wait, the more enticing it is. And the more enticing it is, the harder you're going to go after it. People like to earn stuff. Humans are weird. We need to earn things. Also. The more you earn it, the higher value the resource is. The harder it is to get, the more people want it. Oh, so good. Okay. Hey, we made it to seven. This is. Come in. This is the last one. We made it to seven.

[Nate Lagos]

Let's go. We did it.

[Sarah Levinger]

All right. Last one. These consumer insights that are actually hurting your brand, this one in particular. Over relying on quantitative metrics. Over relying on quantitative metric. Drives me crazy. This fallacy of the data doesn't lie. Drives me nuts.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Levinger]

Flawed entirely. It's not at all linked to human behavior or psychology. And everyone says it.

[Nate Lagos]

It.

[Sarah Levinger]

Well, the data says, do you know how?

[Nate Lagos]

We all know that's how. And. But, like, we won't admit it.

[Sarah Levinger]

We want to.

[Nate Lagos]

Hey, guys. When you're doing your Monday weekly report or your monthly report for your boss and the data doesn't look good, you find a way to spin it to make it look like you're doing a good job.

[Sarah Levinger]

So true.

[Nate Lagos]

And that's so true. And every single one of you have done that.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Lagos]

But then when the data's on your side, you're like, the data is. Doesn't lie. And it's like.

[Sarah Levinger]

Well, it did last week, though.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah. Yeah, it did. When you missed your goal.

[Sarah Levinger]

When you missed your sales goal.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, poor people. Yes. 100%. Okay. Data can show you what is happening. It's not going to show you why. So it's basically irrelevant. Right. Great. So we know something is happening. We don't know why. And that drives me crazy because again, it's going to ignore data, ignores human irrationality entirely. Cognitive biases, emotional, like, decision making. It ignores the fact that we are choice architects and we are deciding what path people go down which drastically changes how they purchase things. Every little piece of your ecosystem has been set up to try and get someone to purchase, but you guys completely forgot that, like, humans Are irrational.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Levinger]

Well, and I think who's day.

[Nate Lagos]

I think. I think the biggest mistake people make here too, is like isolating individual metrics. They'll be conversion rates down. That's bad. And it's like, well, hold on. That might not be bad.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Lagos]

What's your aov? What's your revenue per procession? Is it down because you ran a sale or ended a sale? Is it down because of the time of year? Like, anything in isolation is super misleading.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yep. Yep, 100%. Well, at the end of the day, data is only telling us again, what's happening. Something is happening. We're trying to track what's happening. The next piece of it, the piece that almost everybody seems to have stopped looking for, is why. Why is that happening? And obviously, like, I like to go after the human angle. I need to know behaviorally why that's happening. Most people go after the why of, okay, why is that hook working? Why is that? Why is that ad performing? The ads are just secondary. They're just basically a symptom of growing a brand. Right. I need to know why are humans buying? Which usually has to do with how you were parented, how you grew up, what kind of experiences you've had in your entire life, what kind of traumas you've experienced, what kind of a high school experience you've had if you're married, if you're not married. Like, there's a lot that goes down.

[Nate Lagos]

To conceptual behavior, and we think it comes down to the color of the button on the landing page. And it's like, hey, no, no, that's not what we're doing here.

[Sarah Levinger]

Which is funny because sometimes humans are that weird that you can't. Yeah.

[Nate Lagos]

And that does something matters. And the. The rounded corners on. On CTA's has worked for us really well, which is so dumb.

[Sarah Levinger]

Humans are weird. But again, that's a change.

[Nate Lagos]

That's after we nailed the Y too.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes, that's a change in, like, incremental human behavior. If you're trying to grow a brand, I don't want you to go after buttons first. Yeah, let's start somewhere else. God, this was a good episode. We did it.

[Nate Lagos]

We got a great episode.

[Sarah Levinger]

Great episode. Where can people find you if they want to follow what you're doing at.

[Nate Lagos]

Nade Lagos on Twitter? And the Tactical and Practical podcast is the best solo marketing podcast out there. I'm willing to say that this. This podcast is the best co hosted.

[Sarah Levinger]

Okay, I'll take that.

[Nate Lagos]

But Tactical and practical. Best solo podcast. So go check it out.

[Sarah Levinger]

All right. Sometimes I do solo episodes, by the way.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah, mine are better.

[Sarah Levinger]

My producer, Scotty said that I'm very good at my solo episodes.

[Nate Lagos]

Yeah, yeah. My mom thinks I'm good at mine, too, so.

[Sarah Levinger]

All right, all right. You can find me anywhere. You consume content at. Sarah Loved you. Go check out what we're doing at Tether Insights IO we are basically uncovering emotional, psychological identity based insights from your consumers so that you can grow your brand with science instead of guessing. Because that stresses me out.

[Nate Lagos]

The Brain Driven Brands podcast is part.

[Sarah Levinger]

Of the Learn and Laugh series on.

[Nate Lagos]

The Quickfire Podcast Network.